Sitting of 10 July 1874

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Report—Dean Forest [No. 272].
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—Resolution [July 6] reported.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee—Report—Sanitary Laws Amendment (re-comm.) * [195–202]; Evidence Law Amendment (Scotland)* [165– 203]; Industrial and Reformatory Schools *[193].
Considered as amended—Revising Barristers (Payment) * [127].
Third Reading—Slaughterhouses, &c. * [150].
The House met at Two of the clock.

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS ACT, 1868—BOSTON ELECTION.—QUESTION.
MR. CHARLES LEWISasked Mr. Attorney General, Whether his attention has been called to the position of the Petition complaining of the undue return of the two Members returned to serve in this present Parliament for the borough of Boston, in the following particulars:—1. That while the Petition complained of the undue return of two Members of this House, the last certificate and report of the Judge deal only with the return of one of such Members; 2. That the Election Judge reserved two questions for the decision of the Court of Common Pleas, whereas the decision of such Court disposes of one only of such questions; and, further, whether it is

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in the power of this House to secure the decision of the Court of Common Pleas on the right to the remaining seat, and on the undecided question?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sir, the two Reports of Mr. Justice Grove upon the subject of the trial of the recent Election Petition for the borough of Boston are set forth in the Votes of this House of the 8th and 23rd of last month. It appears from the former of such Reports that Mr. Justice Grove, having decided that one of the respondents was not duly elected, reserved two questions for the consideration of the Court of Common Pleas—one of such questions had reference to the validity of certain votes, and affected the claim of the petitioner to be returned in the place of the unseated respondent; the other of such questions had reference to agency, and affected the election and return of the other respondent. It would appear from the second Report of Mr. Justice Grove that the former only of these questions had been disposed of by the Court of Common Pleas at the date of such Report, as it only deals with the seat claimed by the petitioner; and that the other of the questions submitted to them by Mr. Justice Grove had not then been dealt with by them. I have, however, every reason to believe that not only are the Judges fully alive to the state of the case, but that the parties more particularly interested have at present under their consideration how the remaining question can be brought before the Court for decision.

PENSIONS OF OFFICERS OF THE LATE EAST INDIA COMPANY.—QUESTION.
COLONEL JERVISasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether it be true that, contrary to the Regulations of 1796 and the General Orders of the Government of India of 1824, regulating the retirement and pensions of the officers of the late East India Company, and the Acts of Parliament guaranteeing these rights to pension, any Major of the late Bengal, Bombay, or Madras Artillery, has been placed on a retired pension of 14 s. 6d., instead of 16 s. per diem?
LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: Sir, Majors of the late Indian Artillery have retired on a pension of 14 s. 6d. a-day.
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These officers are entitled after 22 years' service to retire on the full pay of their rank, which full pay, according to the Royal Warrant, is 14 s. 6d. a-day.

LAND TITLES AND TRANSFER BILL.

  QUESTION.
  MR. CHILDERSasked the Secretary to the Treasury, What is the estimated cost of carrying out the provisions of the Land Titles and Transfer Bill; and, whether there will be any objection to lay upon the Table a Statement in detail of such estimated expenditure, before the House goes into Committee on the Bill?
  MR. W. H. SMITH, in reply, said, it was not contemplated that there would be any additional cost to the Treasury in carrying out the provisions of the Land Titles and Transfer Bill. The existing staff in the Land Transfer Office would be sufficient for that purpose.

ARMY—STAFF OF MILITIA REGIMENTS—MEDICAL OFFICERS.

  QUESTION.
  SIR EARDLEY WILMOTasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he is prepared to state what are the intentions of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the filling up of vacancies in the Medical Staff of Militia Regiments, seeing that, according to the Army List for June, there are six surgeoncies and twenty-four assistant-surgeoncies vacant; and, whether the Government is prepared to compensate those surgeons who can show up to the present time any loss or hardship, as promised by Lord Cardwell, that individual cases of such should be "fairly considered? "
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, that all the appointments had been suspended until the Regulations with respect to the status and pay of Militia medical officers were issued. Those Regulations were now in preparation, and would shortly be issued. He had the opportunity the other day of seeing a deputation of those officers, and gave them the same information as he now gave to his hon. Friend. As to the question of compensation, he could only repeat what he had said before, that, as in former eases, so also in these, each case would be considered carefully on its own merits.

NAVY—H.M.S s. "NARCISSUS" AND "ENDYMION."—QUESTION.
MR. E. J. REEDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, with reference to the recent grounding of Her Majesty's ships "Narcissus" and "Endymion" in the Bay of Palermo and to the court martial upon the captain and navigating officer of the flagship "Narcissus," and upon the captain of the "Endymion," whether the precedent of the "Agincourt" case will be followed, or whether the Admiral in command is held free from responsibility?
MR. HUNT: Sir, the precedent to which the hon. Member refers has not been followed; but instructions were issued from the Admiralty that the conduct of the Admiral in reference to the occurrence in question should be investigated by court-martial, and the court-martial is now sitting at Devonport.

INDIA—UNCOVENANTED SERVICE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GOLDNEYasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Why the leave rules which the Secretary of State for India sanctioned being extended to certain officers of the Uncovenanted Service, have not been brought into operation as regards Bengal, whilst Oude enjoys the benefit of them; whether the roll of officers in Bengal which was in course of preparation in 1872, has been yet received in the India Office; and, if not, what is the cause of delay; and, whether, according to the notification of the Government of India of 14th March 1872, the officers who may be included in the roll, when transmitted and approved by the Secretary of State, will be admitted to the benefit of the rules if they have taken leave after the 3rd of January 1872?
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: Sir, when the Secretary of State for India sanctioned more liberal leave rules for certain officers of the Uncovenanted Service, he required that lists should be prepared by the Government of India of those officers to whom those rules should apply, and that such lists should be transmitted for the Secretary of State's approval. A list was, accordingly, transmitted by the Government of India in relation to officers in Oude. In regard to Bengal, a list has been received with
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  a Despatch from the Government of India dated the 26th May, 1874; but by telegram on the 22nd ult., the Secretary of State was requested to postpone any action in relation to that Despatch until the receipt of further information from that Government. Under the notification by the Government of India of the 14th March, 1872, officers who may be included in the list when furnished by that Government and approved by the Secretary of State, will be admitted to the benefit of the rules if they left India on leave on or subsequently to the 3rd of January, 1872.

EAST COAST OF AFRICA—THE SLAVE TRADE.—QUESTION.
MR. WHALLEYasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with reference to the policy adopted with a view to the suppression of the Slave Trade on the East Coast of Africa, Whether he is aware that the transportation of slaves is openly carried on, under the Egyptian flag, from the Egyptian port of Massowah, and from Zeybu and Tajoura, of which Turkey has lately assumed the Protectorate, apparently for facilitating such traffic?
MR. BOURKE, in reply, said, the slave trade on the East Coast of Africa had been very much suppressed. No doubt, however, it was partially revived in other quarters, particularly with regard to the importation of Galla slaves. It having been stated that there was reason to believe that the trade was being carried on at certain places within the Egyptian territory, representations had been made to the Khedive on the subject, and also with respect to the Abyssinian slave trade, and the Khedive had taken very energetic measures on the subject. The Khedive had deposed the pasha who was formerly in command of the whole district, and had put it under another pasha, to whom he had given peremptory orders to take all possible steps to suppress the slave trade. He had no information to give the hon. Gentleman respecting the Turkish slave traffic.

PUBLIC WORSHIP REGULATION BILL.

  QUESTION.
  MR. NEWDEGATEwished, in the absence of the First Lord of the Treasury, to put a Question to some other

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  Member of the Government, in consequence of the proceedings of the House having terminated in some confusion early that morning. He wished to know, Whether the understanding that the First Lord of the Treasury would, on Monday, state what day he would assign for the adjourned debate on the Bill would be carried out; and, whether the right hon. Gentleman would on Monday move the suspension of the Standing Orders for Wednesday, with a view to the resumption of the adjourned debate on the latter day?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he wished that the hon. Member had given Notice of his Question, as there was no one there who was in a position now to answer it. When the House met on Monday, no doubt his right hon. Friend would give the hon. Gentleman an answer.

SUPPLY—REPORT.
Resolution [July 3] reported.
"That a sum, not exceeding £139,041, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expenses of Greenwich Hospital and School, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1875."
MR. CHILDERSin rising to call attention to the state of the Revenue, and to ask a question of Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, said, that on a former occasion, about the middle of May, he asked his right hon. Friend whether, from the facts known at that time, the state of the Revenue might be considered by him satisfactory; and his right hon. Friend, in reply, stated that with respect to the Customs the state of things was satisfactory, that respecting the Revenue generally, and especially the Excise, there was no reason to apprehend there would be any great difference from the statement which had been laid before the House; but that towards the end of the Session he should be prepared to give further information on the subject. A quarter of the financial year having expired, he now proposed to repeat the question in the light of that quarter's experience. The facts as to the Revenue appeared to be that on the quarter the Customs showed a decrease of £287,000. The Excise gave an increase of £43,000, the receipts for Stamps had increased by £69,000, the land and house tax had increased by £51,000, and the Post Office by £170,000; the
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receipts from telegraphs had increased by £200,000, and the Crown Lands showed an increase of £3,000. On the other side of the account, the receipts from property and income tax were £97,000 less than in the preceding quarter of the year, and the miscellaneous receipts were less by £160,593. These figures gave an increase of £536,000 and a decrease of 544,593, showing a net decrease of £8,593. The apparent large increase in the Telegraph Service was attributable to the fact that in the previous quarter, only £100,000 was paid in, whereas last year, it amounted to £460,000; nothing, therefore, could be argued from the comparison of the present quarters. Nor could any reliance be placed on conclusions drawn from the payments for Income Tax or the Miscellaneous receipts. He would, therefore, pass on to the three items of Revenue from which we might derive at any period of the year very reasonable anticipations as to the probabilities of the Revenue of the year—namely, the Customs, Excise, and Stamps. With regard to the Customs duties, his right hon. Friend anticipated that they would increase £401,000 on the year, irrespective of the remission of the sugar duty, which he put at a loss of £2,000,000; the anticipated increase on the Excise was put at £918,000; but, on the other hand, his right hon. Friend had remitted the horse duty, a loss estimated at £480,000. With respect to Stamps, the anticipated increase on the year was £330,000. Upon that statement the question was, what amount should have been received during the first quarter of the year? His right hon. Friend, in the first place, expected that the check in the delivery from bond of customable articles, arising from the disclosures that were made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenwich, in the early part of the year, would add to the current year's receipts. Thus, in April, 2,000,000 pounds of tea were taken out of bond in excess of last year's deliveries, the Revenue gaining £50,000 paid in duty on that article. He (Mr. Childers) added that to a quarter of the remaining anticipated £350,000 gain on the Customs for the year, which would make the increased amount received on Customs £137,000. On the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman had lost during the quarter nearly two months' sugar

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duties—for both this and last year, in consequence of the change of duty, the April receipts of sugar duty were of small importance—amounting to something like £350,000; and deducting from it the gain on the other two accounts, the total loss on the Customs would be £213,000 during the quarter. So much for the Customs. On the other hand, the gain under the head of Excise should have been £230,000, inasmuch as the repeal of the horse duty had not taken effect, and on account of Stamps £83,000, making in all £313,000, which, with the loss on the Customs duties of £213,000, should have left a net gain of £100,000 on the quarter in order to fulfil the conditions of the Budget. What had really happened, however, had been that the Customs receipts were £287,000 less than anticipated, and the Excise and Stamps receipts had been more by £43,000 and £69,000 respectively, so that there was a net falling off on the quarter, as compared with the corresponding quarter, of, £175,000. Instead of that, as he had said, the increase ought to have been £100,000; so that the Revenue was £275,000, or at the rate of £1,100,000 on the year, less than was anticipated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The question, however, remained whether the first quarter's receipts on these heads might be taken as a basis so as to enable the House to judge as to the probable total receipts of the year, and whether any other financial change was to be allowed. For instance, although it was scarcely probable, the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have not only a decrease in the amount of his anticipated receipts, but also a decrease in the demands which he anticipated would be made upon him, and thus secure his surplus. On this latter point he had not much hope. Already considerable Supplementary Estimates had been voted or promised, including £150,000 for the Navy; and he feared that there was little chance of the Budget expenditure not being reached, if not exceeded. But there were a good many considerations which ought to have due weight in estimating the probable income of the country, so far as it was derived from Customs, Excise, and Stamps; for instance, the state of the labour market, the progress of the home and also of the foreign trade, the imports of food, and the savings banks receipts. First as to
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wages, it must be remembered that the wages received by the working classes were much lower than those paid at a corresponding period of last year. For instance, in the iron and coal trade they were now an eighth less than last year; and the state of Staffordshire and South Wales pointed to further reductions. Again, the export trade during the first six months of the present year, on which labour was extensively employed, and therefore wages largely paid, had fallen short by no less than £8,000,000, the amount having diminished from £125,780,000 in the first half of 1873 to £117,831,000 in the corresponding part of 1874. Taking two of the most important divisions of the exports he found that the diminution in regard to iron and steel had been from £19,167,000 to £15,785,000 or 17 per cent. and that in regard to cotton, linen and woollen goods it had been from £59,130,000 to £54,802,000, or 8 per cent. That meant a large decrease in the profits and wages of the trades concerned, and of course the result would seriously affect the Revenue. Another valuable test was afforded by the home trade, the state of which they were enabled to judge by examining the railway traffic returns. The receipts of railway companies whose incomes exceeded £1,000,000 in the half-year had been in the first half of this year £16,088,000, and in the corresponding part of 1873, £15,624,000, showing an increase of only 3 per cent. although 1½ per cent had been added to the mileage. The increase in 1873 over 1872, on the other hand, had been no less than 9 per cent. and in 1872 over 1871, 8 per cent. From these figures it was to be inferred that the home trade had suffered a very decided check. Indeed, if the amount in respect of passengers were deducted, it would be found that there had been an actual reduction in the railway receipts for merchandize in the first half of 1874, as compared with the first half of 1873. Then, with regard to meat imports—and he knew no better test of the actual state of profits and wages—it appeared that, excluding bread-stuffs, which were little altered, and depended on the home production, the amount in the months of May and June last was £2,099,000, against £3,129,000 in the same months of 1873, showing a decrease of £1,030,000. Taking next the balances at the savings banks, a most unusual feature

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would be noticed. They would find that whereas from June 1873, to April 1874, they increased by no less than £2,500,000, they decreased from £62,931,009 in April last, to £62,842,153 in May, and to £62,747,356 in June, showing a falling off at the rate of £100,000 a month. That was a very remarkable and unprecedented state of things. Although all these facts seemed to indicate that the Revenue had of late lost its former elasticity, and that the falling off was likely to continue, it might yet be that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in possession of better information which, on being given per contra, might seem satisfactory to the House. He would himself refer to the Trade and Revenue Returns for June, which were beyond a doubt more satisfactory than those of April or May, and if that improvement was not casual, but one which was likely to continue, and still more if the harvest were a good one, the Chancellor of the Exchequer might take heart and count on his anticipations being realized. For his own part, he desired to say distinctly that he would rejoice in this quite as much as his right hon. Friend. His sitting on this side of the House did not in the least deter him from hoping for a good surplus, and that his right hon. Friend's Budget might be a success. His present inquiry had no party object. What, then, he desired to ask his right hon. Friend was, whether the figures he had given were correct; whether his deductions from them were sound; whether his right hon. Friend had anything to say which might lead them to take a more sanguine view of the matter than those figures seemed to warrant; and, whether, in the event of his not now anticipating so favourable a result as he had looked forward to when he made his Budget Statement, he intended to take any steps to prevent the House from drifting into a deficit?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the practice usually adopted of calling upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make an annual statement of the finances of the country was upon the whole, and under ordinary circumstances, a practice that conduced to public convenience, and was one that ought not lightly to be departed from. Undoubtedly, in many cases within their memory, it had occurred that, after the usual
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annual forecast of the Revenue and probable expenditure, it was found at a later period of the Session that for some reason or other the anticipations were likely to prove fallacious, and it became necessary for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in order to meet some extraordinary expenditure, or because his calculations of Revenue were likely to prove wrong, to ask the sanction of the House to some revision of the financial arrangements of the year. If Government had found that any circumstances had arisen during the three months that had elapsed since the Financial Statement was made, which seemed to call for a revision of their financial proposals, it would have been their duty—and they would not have hesitated to act upon their conviction as to that duty—to come down to the House and make proposals having reference to the alteration in the state of affairs. It was, however, doubtful whether it was for the public convenience that questions of the kind just raised by his right hon Friend should be brought before the House. He was aware there was a prevailing impression that, somehow or other, the condition of the finances was not satisfactory, and when he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) asked persons who were of that opinion what grounds they had for it, they gave reasons more or less unsatisfactory; but generally they came to the clinching argument that the Revenue must be in a bad state, because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), who was a great authority, had given Notice of an interpellation on the subject. The answer he had ventured to give was after the fashion of the Vicar of Wakefield, who used on solemn occasions in his family to express a hope that, "they might be all the better for it twelve months after," which he thought a safe thing to say, inasmuch as it was regarded only as a pious ejaculation, if the event turned out satisfactory, while if it proved otherwise, he might gain the character of a prophet. In the same way, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought that some of the gentlemen who were anxious to know whether he felt uncomfortable about the state of the Revenue, would next year, if there were to be a deficiency, say that they were prophets, and had warned him in time; and, on the other hand, if nothing came of it, why, then, there was no harm

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in having put the question. He, however, did not wish to question the sincerity of his right hon. Friend, and he fully believed that his right hon. Friend was as anxious as any one that there should be a satisfactory Revenue for the year. Whatever impression his right hon. Friend had received from the Returns of the Revenue, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could only say, in answer to his question, that he did not share his apprehension. He was not ready to present a revised Budget to the House, but if he were asked to anticipate the Revenue of the current year he should say that that Revenue would justify the figures which he anticipated when he brought forward his Financial Statement. He saw no reason for entertaining anxiety that those figures would not be realized. Of course, there were, and always had been, elements of uncertainty with respect to the Revenue of the year 1874–5. At the beginning of the year there was great anxiety as to the maintenance of the rate of wages, and as to the commercial interests of the country. But the Government took these matters into full consideration before the Budget for the present year was presented to the House. He would not go into all the figures connected with this matter, but he would point out what he thought was the cardinal fallacy on the part of his right hon. Friend—namely, that to ascertain the probable amount of Revenue for the year, they should multiply by four the Revenue of the first quarter of the year.
MR. CHILDERSsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had misrepresented what he had said on the subject. What he said was, that comparing this year with last, the increase on the quarter might be held to be the measure of the increase for the year.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, in that case, perhaps he had not correctly expressed himself. But he took issue with the proposition even as stated by his right hon. Friend, and he would endeavour to show why. He would ask him why it was commonly assumed as an axiom that, if things remained in their normal state, the Revenue of one year was likely to be exceeded by the Revenue of the year following? It was because it was assumed that there was an increase of population, and that that led to a larger
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consumption, and consequently, to a larger Revenue year by year. Well, the population of the country increased every year, but the whole of that increase did not occur once for all on the 1st of April. The increase went on continuously throughout the year, and the Revenue from the Customs Excise would go on getting larger after that date, according to the rate at which the population went on increasing. And so it was undoubtedly now. Taking the question, however, on the right hon. Gentleman's own ground, with regard to the Customs, he found, on excluding from both items of account the article of sugar, that the net increase that year, as compared with the corresponding quarter of last year, amounted to £138,570 for the whole quarter, or at the rate of £554,280 for the year. This would give £250,000 more than he expected to get when he made his calculations. But in addition to that, there was the sum of £68,000 in respect of the sugar duty, which made the sum amount to £300,000 more for the Customs than he had reckoned upon. That was on the assumption that the increase in the first quarter of the year would be at the same rate as the increase in the remaining quarters, which never was the case; because, in fact, the large increase in the Customs Duties occurred generally in the third quarter. As regarded the Customs Returns for the month of May, they had, no doubt, been bad; but for the month of June, he found they were remarkably satisfactory in every particular; and the net result for the whole quarter was that, with the single exception of wine, the receipts were largely in excess of the amount he had anticipated, and instead of a falling off, he was glad to state that his Budget calculation for the quarter would be exceeded by £100,000. As to the Excise Revenue, he must frankly own that it had not produced quite as satisfactory results as the Customs Revenue; but here, a large recovery took place in the month of June; and he was not without hopes that, in the end, the Revenue would prove to be equal, or nearly so, to the amount he had estimated. With reference to one of the most important items—namely, that of spirits, he might inform the House that the increase of Revenue for the quarter was about £110,000; and if the receipt for the quarter should

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bear the same relative proportion to the year's Revenue as the receipt for the quarter ending June 1873–4, the total Revenue for the spirit duty of 1874–5 would amount probably to £15,200,000, or £200,000 less than the Budget Estimate. Therefore, against the possible improvement of £300,000 in the Customs duties he set down the possible loss of £200,000 upon the spirit duty. With respect to malt, they were not in a position to make any close calculation, because the question depended very much upon the third and fourth quarters. But although malt had not, so far, produced all that was expected of it, the quantity of sugar taken in for brewing purposes, curiously enough, exactly compensated for the disappointment from malt. The railway receipts, though they had shown a falling off, were now better, and the receipts from the Land Tax and House Duty were decidedly better. With regard to the income tax, he had some satisfactory indications to point out. In the first quarter of 1872–3 the tax of 4d. in the pound, with arrears at the rate of 6d. to collect, brought into the Exchequer £1,600,000. In the first quarter of last year, when the tax was 3d. in the pound, with arrears at the rate of 4d. to collect, it brought in £1,169,000; so that the difference of 2d. in the rate of arrears made a difference of £435,000 in the amount collected. One would have supposed that the loss in 1874–5, when there were arrears at the rate of 1d. to be collected, would be £217,000, or half the amount of the loss resulting from a difference of 2d.; but the actual loss was only £97,000, and in whatever way the matter was turned over, it seemed that we must get at least £100,000 more from the income tax than had been calculated upon. He did not think it would be convenient at that period of the Session to re-cast or revise the Budget; but a great many of these matters ought to be taken into account. They had been carefully estimated and considered; and, in reference to them, he had a large mass of figures with which he would not now trouble the House. However, he might say with confidence that, at the present moment, he could see no reason whatever for reducing the Estimate of Revenue which he brought before the House when he made his Financial Statement. He could not exactly say
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that that was a sanguine estimate, as it had been termed, though he admitted it was a close one. By that, he meant that the estimate was one which took into account, what was not usually taken into account—namely, the prospective increase of the year. Of course, it was the duty of the Government to be careful in what they assumed, and to make provision for a somewhat larger margin than in ordinary years had been thought necessary. Therefore, when the Financial Statement was brought forward, provision was made for a margin of £460,000. Since that Budget was introduced, there had, no doubt, been some Supplementary Estimates, and some others would be brought forward; but with regard to the principal Supplementary Estimate of £150,000 for the Navy, that was introduced shortly after the Budget, and might be taken as reducing the anticipated surplus to £300,000. There was a feature in the Budget calculations to which he ought to call the attention of the House. At the time he made his Financial Statement, it was proposed to take upon the Imperial Revenue a number of local charges, and as he did not know the precise amount it would be necessary to provide in order to meet some of those charges, he thought it would be safe to take the estimate at the full amount which would have to be paid in respect of those charges, as if the whole amount would come within the present financial year. As a matter of fact, however, some of those charges being paid half-yearly, would not come into course of payment during the year, and there was actually required something like £300,000 less than was included in the Budget Estimate. Therefore, the margin which the Government had left must be taken at much nearer £600,000 than £300,000. In reference to the police grant in particular, he might state that the amount to be ultimately given to the police for the year was about £600,000; but half of that was paid after Michaelmas, and half after Lady-day, and the latter payment consequently did not come into the finance of the present year. The Supplementary Estimates which would be shortly presented to the House would, he believed, fall short decidedly of the amount of that saving, and it might be concluded that there would be a much better surplus on the Budget Estimate

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than had of late years been usual. Of course, he was unable to say that in the course of the year no accidents would happen, and that no trouble would arise which might affect our receipts; but he certainly did not share the rather gloomy anticipation of his right hon. Friend. The right hon. Gentleman had pointed out what no doubt was true—namely, that the Board of Trade Returns showed a falling off in our exports. But in what respect, and at what time? It was during the last six months of the year. But had his right hon. Friend noticed what a comparative recovery there had been in the month of June? "Whereas the falling off in the last six months of the financial year was something like £8,000,000, or considerably more than £1,000,000 a month, in the month of June the falling of was not more than £97,000. April must be described as a moderately satisfactory month, and May as decidedly gloomy; but June was as decidedly encouraging, as May was gloomy. He regretted that he had not with him the figures respecting the Savings Banks. Although they showed a diminution for a considerable time, there had been a change quite recently, and looking at the revival in the consumption of all articles, especially tea, tobacco, and other things which seemed to be falling off, there was a fair prospect, if we were blessed with a good harvest, of a material increase in the Revenue. In making his Financial Statement, he mentioned that the intention of the Government was to create a series of annuities with a view to redeem £7,000,000 of Debt. For that purpose, it was intended to apply the interest on the advances made by the Public Works Loan Commissioners. That interest might be taken at, as nearly as possible, £500,000, and the amount proposed to be set up by way of annuities would come to £439,000. Therefore, some £50,000 would come into strengthen the miscellaneous revenue in regard to that Debt. It was thought convenient that these annuities should be made payable on the 1st of August, the 1st of September, the 1st of November, and the 1st of December, the object being to suit the convenience of the National Debt Commissioners. In conclusion, he had only to say that if any further specific questions were addressed to him, he would do his best to reply to them.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid, they must all be actuated by a desire that the Revenue of the country should be in a prosperous condition. He had for some years been an advocate of what the right hon. Baronet called close Estimates, for he thought the country ought not to be treated as a spoilt child, and it did not want to have its powders administered in jam. Of course, it was for the Government, after having estimated what would be the Revenue and Expenditure, to determine how it would dispose of the surplus, and he should not have risen to make a single remark, but for one statement of the right hon. Baronet, which was not entirely consistent with the principle of close Estimates. The right hon. Baronet informed the House that he calculated the Supplementary Estimates would be covered by the reduced expenditure in respect to the contribution to the police. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: No.] He was speaking of the reduced expenditure within the present financial year. All he ventured by way of mild criticism to suggest was, that that fact must have been known to the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he introduced his Budget, and that he might as well have mentioned it to the House at that time. In conclusion, he could only express a hope that the expectations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be fully realized.
MR. PEASEagreed that as a general rule, it would be an inconvenient practice to have more than one Budget discussion in the year; but at the same time, he was of opinion that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ponte-fract was justified, under the circumstances, in putting his Question, and he was certain the Answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give satisfaction to the country. The recent fall in wages—the consequent decrease in consumption, and the falling off in various branches of industry—were all matters which were calculated to cause anxiety, and warranted the course which had been pursued.
MR. HEYGATEemphatically protested against the doctrine that it was wise and expedient to have close Estimates of Revenue. He thought it was neither a wise, a safe, nor a Conservative policy. It was far less an evil that the taxpayers should pay a little more than was necessary, than that taxes should

1489
be taken off, and then have to be re-imposed. Very close Estimates were apt to starve the public service; while if there was a larger surplus than was expected, it did no harm to any one, but went towards the next year's Re-venue.
MR. E. J. REEDwished it to be clearly understood that, though the rate of wages paid to the working classes had considerably decreased of late, the decrease followed upon a large and abnormal rise in the wage rate from which the country suffered enormously. He thought it was undesirable that the House should be supposed in any way to under-rate that decrease.
MR. FAWCETTsaid, he should not have interposed in this discussion did he not feel, from the speeches which they had heard from the two front Benches, that there had been carefully left out of sight one important aspect in which this question might be viewed. This, perhaps, was not altogether unnatural, if they considered what had happened to the finances of the country during the present year. It seemed to him that every day it was becoming more evident that a most serious injury was done to the financial position of the country by the popular financial bids for electoral support which were made by each great party at the last General Election. He knew nothing, however, more creditable to the country than the fact that it did not respond to the financial inducements held out to it—a circumstance which pointed to the improbability of the experiment being tried again. He did not censure the Chancellor of the Exchequer for what had been done, because he was placed in the position of being compelled to do something in order to redeem the promises made by his Chief in his Election Addresses before the last General Election. Two months before the end of the financial year, the then Prime Minister had predicted a surplus between £5,000,000 and £6,000,000, and promised remissions of taxation, which, if they had been carried out, would have required a surplus of £8,000,000 or £9,000,000. How was the deficiency between the promised remissions of taxation and the surplus which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenwich had assumed to exist to be made up? Why, it was to be made up by the re-adjustment of taxes—
1490
a vague, infinite, and unfortunate expression. After all, however, money must be had, and if the late Prime Minister had been attending in his place during the present Session, he certainly should have pressed him to tell the House where he was going to get the money to give these £8,000,000 or £9,000,000 of remission of taxation. That, however, was not all, for the party now in power, instead of taking the dignified course of refusing to enter into a rivalry in the matter of financial bids for popular Votes, went even further in the same direction, and the present Prime Minister, in a series of electoral addresses, made some great promises on the subject of taxation. One day, it was to be the income tax; the next, it was to be a great remission of local taxation; and the next, there were promises which led the farmers to believe that something would be done with regard to the malt duty. If they made a most moderate estimate, the present Prime Minister had raised expectations which it would take a surplus of £20,000,000 to satisfy. The unsatisfactory state of the Revenue was not, in his (Mr. Fawcett's) opinion, due to the fact that some of the anticipated sources of Revenue had been short, but to the circumstance that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had raised expectations which it was next to impossible to realize without creating financial difficulty, and which if he did not attempt to satisfy them, must create a wide feeling of discontent in the country. He would not make a financial prophecy, but he might be permitted to express his opinion, that under present circumstances, it was impossible for the Revenue to maintain the elasticity which had characterized it during the last few years. Every day they saw some great dispute arising between capital and labour, and there could be no doubt that if employment were curtailed and wages reduced, their Excise and Customs' revenue would become less productive. Indeed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that his Estimates were extremely close, and that some of his sources of income were not turning out as favourably as might have been anticipated. Again, in his Estimates of expenditure, he had allowed for only half the sum for lunatics, and next year £250,000 or £300,000 more than was paid this year, would have to be paid for lunatics. That reduced

1491
the right hon. Gentleman's surplus of £300,000 to nothing at all. A portion of the income tax would be paid during the present year at 3d., and that tax would yield him a less sum next year. Moreover, gentlemen who took a great interest in local taxation had been assured that what had been done for them this year was only a small indication of the great favours they were to receive; and there was not a single Chamber of Agriculture or concourse of farmers at a market ordinary who supposed that a small allowance for lunatics and police was all the Conservative party, after talking for years about local taxation, was going to do for the agricultural interest, now that it had a great majority at its back. In the existing state of the Revenue, however, it was impossible that those expectations could be fulfilled. Speeches, too, had been made by the Minister for War and the First Lord of the Admiralty which foreshadowed that some more money would be required for their Departments. There was a certain spontaneous and natural increase in the expenditure for the Services over which those two right hon. Gentlemen presided, and after all they had said against "paper regiments" and "phantom fleets," it was not to be supposed that they would would let those services suffer in efficiency. Moreover, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had included in his calculations of this year's income a sum of £500,000 for what he called interest on reproductive loans, which he (Mr. Fawcett) really believed to belong to the capital of the country, and which ought not, and had never before been held to constitute a part of the ordinary Revenue of the country. In conclusion, it was important that they should clear the financial atmosphere as much as possible from the confusion unfortunately introduced into it by the events of the recent General Election, and that they should remember that there was much in the general industrial and financial condition of the country which should inspire the Government and the House with great care and caution in regard to revenue and expenditure. He hoped, therefore, that the state of the Revenue did not permit of the promises that had been made being redeemed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not hesitate to erase the past and to disregard those promises.
MR. HUBBARDsaid, that in estimating the probable future Revenue of the country, the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had proceeded upon an estimate not absolutely accurate, but as accurate as it could be made; and upon that circumstance the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett) had foundered himself, in the gloomy view of the financial state of the country which he had taken. Now that view, so far as the application of public money to the reduction of the National Debt was concerned, had been answered beforehand by the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but if the hon. Member had looked to a printed paper headed "Sinking Fund," he would find reason rather for gratification than the reverse. That table showed them how the reduction of the National Debt had been dealt with for centuries past, and it appeared from it that, during the last few years especially, the Debt had been reduced by some £2,000,000, £3,000,000, and £4,000,000 at a time. In the face of such facts, it became a matter of comparative unimportance whether the estimate of the Revenue was a few hundred thousands of pounds in excess, or in diminution. The question was simply, whether the Government balance at the Bank of England might be a balance within a few hundred thousand pounds of the estimated amount of the Revenue. There was, therefore, no ground whatever for the position which had been taken up on this question against the Government, and it was a question upon which the hon. Member for Hackney had been wholly misinformed. The hon. Gentleman further said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having received £500,000 in repayment of advances made by the Public Works Loans Commissioners, he had applied it in part discharge of national obligations, without taking notice of the source from which the amount came. Nothing could be more distant from the fact. He could tell the hon. Member that £350,000 of that £500,000 passed through his hands, and that that sum represented the interest on advances made by the Public Works Loans Commissioners. These accounts were carefully analyzed, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had properly applied the money coming into his hands to the most legitimate purpose—the

1493
reduction of the National Debt. The hon. Member for Hackney ought to be gratified to learn that not only were there no grounds for the alarm he had expressed, but that the money in question had been applied by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the purpose which he (Mr. Fawcett) so strongly advocated.
MR. STANSFELDsaid, he felt it his duty to express an opinion different from that of the hon. Member for the City (Mr. Hubbard), when he gave it as his opinion that it was a matter of comparative indifference whether the Estimate of the Chancellor of the Exchequer turned out to be £100,000 or £200,000 wrong, more or less. A proposition of that kind, even from such an authority as matters of finance, seemed to be of a somewhat doubtful character. The hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett) and the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr. Heygate), might certainly have taken too gloomy a view of the financial prospects of the ensuing year; but the view which he (Mr. Stansfeld) ventured to put before the House was this. He did not think that either the hon. Member for Hackney or the hon. Member for the City was quite right. He could not but understand that an Estimate for whatever purpose, should be as exact as an Estimate could be made. The normal growth of the Revenue should then be taken into account, and allowed for as correctly as possible, in order that the Estimate might be as correct as it could be; and then, if any signs of a decline should present themselves, as now, that should be met by the Chancellor of the Exchequer retaining in his hands a sufficient sum to meet any actual deficiency.
Resolution agreed to.

SANITARY LAWS AMENDMENT (re-committed) BILL— [BILL 195.]
(Mr. Sclater-Booth, Mr. Clare Read.)
SANITARY LAWS AMENDMENT (re-committed) BILL— [BILL 195.]

  COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTH, in moving that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, said, the Bill contained no debatable matter of principle. Hon. Members who took an interest in the debates on the subject in 1872 would not be surprised to find that after the lapse of two years some changes and altera-
  1494
  tions should be necessary in the sanitary laws. He hoped that before long it would be possible to undertake a complete consolidation of them; meanwhile, the Bill before the House was simply for the purpose of amending the Act of 1872 by clearing away its ambiguities and improving its machinery. Many of the Amendments were merely of a technical character, although others were rather complicated; but they set up more clearly the status of the sanitary authorities in the rural districts. The first 18 clauses of the Bill dealt with technical and complicated matters, consisting of clauses for the correction of ambiguities of construction which had presented themselves in the application of the law; and, by Clauses 19 and 20, the Local Government Board took fresh powers to put into force orders which they were authorized to make upon sluggish or reluctant local authorities. It was proposed, among other things, that the Board should have power to obtain a writ of mandamus, with the view of compelling a local authority to execute works which might be considered necessary. There were clauses designed to introduce improvements in the election and arrangement of the sanitary bodies, and to put a stop to the present system by which applications for Provisional Orders as to borrowing powers were crowded together at the end of the Session; it being intended, in order to effect the latter object, that parties should be at liberty to give notice at any time during the year of their intention to apply for such Orders. A provision was also introduced into the Bill for distributing the costs of a work over several years, on its being proved to be one of permanent utility. That would be a very valuable power in many cases. There was a very important clause giving power to local authorities to obtain from the magistrates an order to prevent the use of wells, pumps, or cisterns, which were considered unhealthy. The question of the water supply was becoming an urgent one for the whole country, and perhaps before long Government would be able to propose some general provisions on the subject, of a kind which would be greatly to the advantage of the community. It was true, that the Bill might well do more than it did; but he believed it was complete as far as it went, and that by passing it they would

  1495
  be taking a considerable step in the path of sanitary improvement. It had not been much discussed in the House certainly, but it had been very attentively considered in the country; and he was glad to say that while he had had communications from all parts of the country containing suggestions and hoping the Bill would be passed, not one had come expressing any opposition to it. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that the House go into Committee on the Bill.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Sclater-Booth.)
  COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, he was glad to hear that the country was satisfied with the Bill, which was, however, only an amending Bill. The water powers contained in the Bill would have to be exorcised carefully; as he knew of a case in which water was condemned merely because it was thick, whereas, on its being analyzed, it was found perfectly fit for drinking. Bain water was commonly allowed to run to waste; but in his part of the country it was collected on the downs, and but for that they would be without water at all. He was particularly pleased with the 36th and 37th clauses of the Bill, which gave power for distributing the cost of works of permanent utility over a longer number of years. He must, however, say he thought it was a very inconvenient course to bring in such a Bill as that, and to read it a first and second time without discussion, and then to have a statement made on the Motion for going into Committee. If his right hon. Friend had made the statement which he had just delivered on the second reading of the Bill, people would not have been frightened in consequence of not knowing what the contents of the Bill really were.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clauses 1 to 5 inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 6 (Assistant clerk may be appointed instead of clerk).
  COLONEL LEARMONTHmoved, as an Amendment, in page 2, line 38, after "parish," to insert the words "or council of a borough." His object was to enable the town council in a borough to have a power, similar to that exercised
  1496
  by unions and parishes, to appoint a sanitary clerk if they wished to do so.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHhoped that the hon. and gallant Member would not press his Amendment. It would open the door to a multiplication of officers, which the Government thought inexpedient. If the Amendment were carried, it would enable every town council and board of guardians to have an extra clerk for sanitary work.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 7 to 24, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 25 (Power to divide districts into wards at any time, and to settle disputes as to boundaries).
  MR. WHEELHOUSEmoved, as an Amendment, to insert at end of the clause—
  "Or may from time to time alter and re-adjust the areas and boundaries of representation of the several wards in the different districts as may seem expedient to the Local Government Board."
  His object was, that the local bodies should have power to re-adjust the representative element, which in some northern towns was continually changing in numbers and rateable value.
  MR. STANSFELDobjected to the proposed alteration.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHwas perfectly ready to consider the Amendment, if his hon. Friend would introduce it on the Report.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 26 to 30, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 31 (Extension of Lands Clauses Consolidation Act to easements and rights).
  GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURexpressed a hope that the right hon. Gentleman who had charge of that Bill would consider on the Report, whether it was not desirable to give larger powers than those given by the clause as it stood, so as to enable different sanitary districts to combine together for the purpose of forming reservoirs for the proper supply of water to the inhabitants—a matter so essential to the health of the community. Moreover, the mere power of forming reservoirs would be quite insufficient without the authority to extend the area for collecting the

  1497
  water to be stored in these reservoirs. Much might also be done in the way of storing water by means of bunds or dykes across rivers and streams at suitable places, so as to make the reaches of rivers into reservoirs. The gorges of hills might also be banked up, so as to form reservoirs between ranges now but little used for cultivation. The preservation of trees on the tops of hills and on hill-sides should also be attended to. That able man, Sir Roderick Murchison, often in conversation expressed a decided opinion on the importance of water and trees to this country, and it was to be hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board would go on with his good measures to secure water for the people.
  MR. STANSFELDpointed out that the powers which the hon. and gallant Member desired to see enacted already existed under the present law.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTH, as at present advised, thought that the powers which already existed, together with that clause, would enable sanitary authorities to go out of their districts to obtain a supply of water in the manner indicated by the hon. and gallant Baronet.
  SIR FRANCIS GOLDSMIDhoped that due care would be taken of the interests of the particular district into which another sanitary authority might enter.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that none of these powers could be exercised, except after inquiry and due notice to the parties interested.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 32 and 33 agreed to.
  MR. MORGAN LLOYDmoved, as an Amendment, the insertion, after Clause 33, of the following clause:—
  (Supply of water to districts for drinking and domestic purposes.)
  "Any sanitary authority may, for the purpose of supplying its district with water for drinking and domestic purposes, purchase either within or without its district any land covered with water, or any water or right to take or convey water in the same manner, and subject to the same regulations in and subject to which it may purchase land within or without its district. And the word 'land' shall in the enactments relating to such purchase he deemed to include any water or right to take or convey water."
  MR. GREGORYsaid, the clause was unnecessary, because at present there was ample power to obtain a supply of
  1498
  water for any district not adequately supplied by an existing company. Besides, the insertion of the clause would be found to press very seriously upon the public water companies who now supplied the several districts.
  MR. WHALLEYthought the clause was of the highest importance. The hon. and learned Mover of the clause had no wish to interfere with the rights of the existing water companies, but merely to afford facilities, in the interests of the public, for a supply of abundant and good water.
  MR. CAWLEYthought there were ample powers existing at the present time to enable local boards to obtain waterworks. He considered that great mischief would be done by the adoption of these words, because the local boards might involve the ratepayers, in considerable expense. It would be a perfect delusion, however, to suppose that the Amendment would enable any sanitary authority to get a sufficient supply without coming to Parliament for compulsory powers.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHhoped his hon. and learned Friend would he satisfied with the discussion, and not press his Motion. He (Mr. Sclater-Booth) could not consent to the adoption of the addition; but if the hon. and learned Gentleman would allow it to stand over, he would consider whether the wording of the clause could be improved so as to meet the case, and would state the result when the Report was brought up.
  MR. MORGAN LLOYDsaid, he was perfectly satisfied with the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman, and would withdraw the Amendment.
  Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clauses 34 and 35, agreed to.
  Clause 36 (Amendment of 21 & 22 Vict. c. 98, s. 57. regarding loans to sanitary authorities).
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHobserved, that although it was proposed by the clause to extend the period to 60 years, there would be many persons and many wealthy corporations disappointed because it did not go further. He thought, however, it might be regarded as a fair settlement of the case.
  MR. HANKEYpointed out that the loans were given on very cheap terms, and that a precedent for extending the

  1499
  time could not fairly be drawn from the periods named in the Bills, which permitted corporations to raise money from private persons, who would probably demand high rates of interest.
  MR. HUBBARDcontended that the borrowing powers under private Bills were very different from those under the Public Loan Commissioners Act. He suggested that the limit should be placed at 50 years.
  MR. STANSFELDsaid, he was opposed to the extension of the term of 50 years. The clause not only applied to borrowing and re-borrowing, but the limit was fixed at 60 years. Under that provision, a local authority might have borrowed money for 50 years, and when 40 of those years had expired, might come to the Local Government Board for permission to borrow for a further term of 60 years.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, perhaps the best thing to do would be to reconsider the clause, and if any ambiguity should be found in it he would engage that a new clause should be drawn upon the Report.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 37 to 54, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 55, (Warrant may be granted by a justice to search for unsound food).
  MR. CAWLEYmoved as an Amendment, in page 15, line 1, after "milk," to omit the words "butter, cheese, and eggs." Many kinds of cheese were not good till they began to decay; and, for his own part, he confessed that unsound cheese was the only kind of cheese which agreed with him.
  Amendment agreed to; words struck out accordingly.
  Clause as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  MR. PELLmoved the addition of a clause, confining operations, in regard to overcrowding, to cases where there was more than one family in a house.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he could not possibly agree to the clause.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, it might be possible in towns to carry out the law without inflicting hardship, but that was not the case in the country where there were thousands of freehold houses, each of two rooms, occupied by single families. The question was, whether the persons
  1500
  occupying such houses were to leave off having 10 children.
  Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 202.]
  And it being now five minutes to seven of the clock, the House suspended its sitting.
  The House resumed its sitting at nine of the clock.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

"FIRST FRUITS" AND "TENTHS" OF THE CLERGY.—OBSERVATIONS.
MR. MONK, who had a Notice on the Paper relating to First Fruits and Tenths, said, he rose to call the attention of the House to a subject which was of very considerable interest to the clergy.
Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present.
The House was adjourned at ten minutes after 9 o'clock, till Monday next.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Customs (Isle of Man)* (165); Land Drainage Provisional Order * (166); County of Hertford and Liberty of St. Alban * (167); Poor Law Amendment (Removal)* (168): Inns of Court (169).
Second Reading—Foyle College * (159).
Committee—Local Government Board (Ireland) Provisional Order Confirmation * (76).
Report—Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 5) * (99).

INNS OF COURT BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  LORD SELBORNE, in calling attention to the constitution of the Inns of Court and to legal education, said, that for many years past those two subjects had been a great deal before Parliament. They were considered by a Committee of the House of Commons in 1846, and by a Royal Commission in 1854; and some five or six years ago an active movement for the improvement of the existing sys-of legal education was commenced by a society which received a large amount of support from the two branches of the legal profession. In the meantime, much had been done by the Inns of Court for the improvement of the education of their own members. In all he had to say, he intended to speak with all respect of those learned bodies; but, with a full knowledge of what they had done to improve legal education in this
  1458
  country, it was quite insufficient to meet the exigencies of the case, and he hoped that much more would be done hereafter in the same direction. He intended to submit to their Lordships two Bills—one relating to the Inns of Court, and the other to legal education—two subjects having a near connection, but which he thought it would be more advisable to treat in separate Bills. The first Bill he proposed to lay on the Table was one for the incorporation of the Inns of Court and the regulation of their affairs. Those Inns were very ancient institutions, for they could be traced back to the date of a Royal Commission issued in the reign of King Edward II., and he ventured with confidence to say that they discharged public functions, and public functions of the greatest importance. They had been in a variety of ways recognized by Parliament. In 1854 it was referred to a Royal Commission—
  "To inquire into the arrangements of the Inns of Court, for promoting the study of Law and Jurisprudence, the revenues properly applicable to that purpose, and the means most likely to secure a systematic and sound education of students of Law, and provide satisfactory tests of fitness for admission to the Bar."
  In the Report of that Commission it was stated that—
  "None of the Inns are corporate bodies; they are merely voluntary societies, and a great part of their income is still derived from the contributions of their members."
  He thought these Societies could scarcely be described as voluntary, because admission to one of them was essential in the case of every person desirous of being called to the Bar, and certain payments had to be made by every person who was admitted. With regard to two of these Societies, it appeared they held very large property, and it was impossible for a single moment to take any other view than that the Inns of Court were discharging public functions, that they were clothed with great privileges, and that they held their property solely for public purposes. The Report of the Commission stated—
  "We conceive that as regards the Temples a direct trust arises by the acceptance of the grant made by James I.; and in justice to the Benchers, who form the governing body of each Inn of Court, we are bound to observe that there is every disposition on their part to lender the funds of the Societies available for the purpose of Education of the students, whether such trust exist or not."

  1459
  He did not think their Lordships would hesitate to state that, the Inns of Court being invested with a public character and invested with a public responsibility—as they were, in fact, corporations—no harm could result from their being legally incorporated. With regard to the position of the Inns of Court towards the community, the Royal Commissioners made these observations—
  "As regards the duty which the Inns of Court owe to the community, whilst conferring on individuals the right of practising at the Bar, it will be proper to call attention to the privileges incident to the status of a Barrister. He alone is allowed to plead for others in the Superior Courts of Westminster, and he is not responsible to his clients for negligence or otherwise. He alone is eligible for numerous appointments of considerable emolument and responsibility in this country, including not only the higher judicial appointments, but also the offices of Recorder, Judge of a County Court, or Commissioner of Bankruptcy, and Revising Barrister. The Police Magistrates of the Metropolis also are now selected from the Bar. In the Colonics the judicial appointments open to Barristers only are also numerous. The Inns of Court being intrusted with the exclusive right of conferring or withholding a position to which such privileges as we have enumerated are incident, the community is surely entitled to require some guarantee—first, for the personal character, and next for the professional qualifications of the individuals called to the Bar. The only security at present possessed by those who employ a Barrister as counsel consists in this—that any defect in the Advocate may lead to the loss of practice. But there is not even such security against the appointment of an unfit person to any of the judicial offices to which we have referred. As regards the moral character of the Barrister, considerable attention appears at all times to have been directed by the Societies to the exclusion of persons against whom any grave delinquency can be alleged from admission to the Society in the first instance or to the Bar if it be discovered at a later stage. Farther than this, the Societies possess and have on recent occasions exercised the power of 'dis-barring,' or visiting with other severe penalties, after due inquiry, any person who has properly deserved such reprobation, their decision in this respect being subject to an appeal to the Judges. We are of opinion that these precautions have been generally sufficient to prevent any injurious effect to the community with respect to moral impropriety or misconduct in Barristers."
  Now, supposing it to be right that the Inns of Court should exercise the disciplinary power spoken of by the Commissioners, there were at present serious impediments in the way of its due exercise. He would not like to state what might occur—and indeed, what had occurred—in the exercise of that authority. A large number of Benchers might
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  assemble together to investigate a case, but they had no legal mode of proceeding; they had no power to administer an oath, and they were not surrounded by those safe-guards which every public body discharging such functions should have the advantage of. The Commission of 1854 recommended that the Inns of Court should be united in one University for the purpose of legal education, but remaining separate as to their property. His noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack asked the Benchers of Lincoln's Inn in 1863 to assent to that recommendation, and on his motion they passed this Resolution:—
  "That, in the opinion of this Bench, the creation of a Legal University to which the various Inns of Court might be affiliated, and through which legal degrees might be conferred and discipline exercised, would be desirable."
  He thought that, with the recommendation of the Commissioners and the authority of that Resolution, he had laid sufficient ground for the proposal he had to make as to the incorporation of the Inns of Court, and the making of proper regulations for the conduct of their business. Early this year he drafted a Bill and circulated it in the hope that it would elicit useful suggestions for actual legislation. In that Bill he united the two subjects which he now proposed to treat in separate Bills. The Bill was circulated among the Judges, and it was sent to the Inns of Court; but he was bound to say that he did not get all the assistance he could have wished from those Societies. As was usual in such cases, they appointed a joint Committee, and an extremely short Resolution came to him stating that they disapproved his draft Bill. Whether they disapproved particular provisions, or whether they disapproved the Inns of Court being dealt with in the same Bill as dealt with the subject of legal education, he did not know. But since then he had made himself acquainted with objections to his draft scheme, and the Bill which he was now about to propose, and which he would ask their Lordships to read a first time, was somewhat different as regarded the Inns of Court. The Bill after incorporating all the existing Inns of Court, while keeping their several properties distinct, proposed to fix a certain number of Benchers for each of the four Inns. What that number should be was, of course, open to discussion;

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  but he proposed 50 for Lincoln's Inn, 40 for the Inner Temple, 40 for the Middle Temple, and 20 for Gray's Inn. He thought they would not be too few—the only doubt he had was whether they would not be too numerous. The Prince of Wales and other members of the Royal Family, certain Privy Councillors, persons who had been Her Majesty's Judges, and other distinguished persons had done the Inns of Court the honour of becoming Benchers. He hoped that in future such distinguished persons would also be found among the Benchers; but, exclusive of them, in respect of filling future vacancies he proposed to make considerable changes. Hitherto, the Governing Bodies of the Inns had been self-elected. The Benchers themselves elected to their own body. It had been hitherto the practice—the invariable practice in Lincoln's Inn and the very general practice in the other Inns—to elect to the Bench all Queen's Counsel who were members of the Inn. The Queen's Counsel had now become so numerous that some restriction had been put on that practice, but it was the general one in all the Inns. Originally he proposed that the election of the Benchers should be by the barristers of the Inn, but he had modified that proposition. He now proposed that until the Benchers should be reduced to the number prescribed by the Bill, one only out of every two vacancies should be filled up; and that the election of a Bencher to each second vacancy should be by barristers of five years' standing. After the reduction to the prescribed number, the election of a Master of the Bench to fill the vacancy should be alternately by the Benchers and alternately by practising barristers of five years' standing. It had been suggested to him that if the right of voting were given to all barristers, gentlemen who had been called to the Bar but did not practise would come up in great numbers and swamp the votes of the practising barristers. Though he did not himself think there was any great fear of that, he proposed by the Bill that only practising barristers should have the right of voting. A roll of those barristers was to be prepared, but until that roll was made out The Law List would be referred to, and a practising barrister would be taken to be a barrister who had chambers and who practised in any of the Courts. With regard to
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  the investigation of charges of misconduct brought against members of the profession, the Bill would create a proper tribunal for their hearing. The Judges of Her Majesty's High Court of Justice would be the Visitors. Then as regarded the property of the Corporation and the management of their affairs he proposed to retain the existing powers of the Governing Bodies; but subject to necessary charges and outgoings all surplus or residue was to be appropriated for the purposes of legal education. Such was the outline of the Bill to which in concluding, he would ask their Lordships to give a first reading. Now, as to the other branch of the subject, he was not prepared this evening to ask their Lordships to give the Bill a first reading because it was not yet ready to be put into the printers' hands, but he would state its main provisions. He did not think it necessary to argue points which had been so fully considered by a Committee of the House of Commons in 1846, and again by a Royal Commission in 1854, as to the importance of a sound and systematic study of the law to those who were to follow either branch of the legal profession. That branch of the profession which was composed of attorneys and solicitors long ago came to the conclusion that no young man ought to be admitted to it without having passed an examination; and long ago, also, considerable means of professional instruction were procured by that branch of the profession. In the meantime attempts were made by the Inns of Court, and with some amount of success. What was done was as well done as it could have been under the circumstances, but the proceeding itself was narrow. For a long time there was a hesitation to make examination indispensable before call to the Bar. He did not know whether it was in consequence of the first movement of which he was the exponent in the other House of Parliament, or whether it was merely a coincidence, but after that movement was set on foot, it was determined by the Inns of Court that an examination before call should be made indispensable, and this year witnessed the inauguration of that system. He looked on that as so much ground won, and not as a matter of argument. The Association, whose objects commended

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  themselves to his mind, as being on the whole, sound in their character, was anxious, if possible, to place the general instruction of all—not Only of barristers, but of both branches of the profession of the law—on as large and liberal a basis as possible. He thought that under the present system there was a great waste of power. It appeared to the members of the Association that there was no reason why all the available means of legal instruction should not be concentrated in one great public institution—call it a University or a School of Law, or what they would—and that all examinations which should be thought necessary for admission to either branch of the profession, and all instruction which it might be thought desirable to give to students seeking admission to either branch, should be con-ducted by that institution. It was proposed to admit to the instructions to be given under that institution not only young men who intended to follow the law as a profession, but all persons who might wish to know something of the law. He need not point out how useful such a knowledge was, not only to gentlemen acting as magistrates and to the Members of either House of Parliament, but to every one who wished to enjoy a liberal education. The Universities had made great endeavours, and with no small amount of success, to induce undergraduates to study law, and a very efficient school of law was one of the Faculties in the University of London. As there was some jealousy in respect of what were called "special Universities," he proposed that under the Bill he intended introducing the teaching institution should be known as the General School of Law. He proposed that the Inns of Court should take an important part in that school, but that it should not be left entirely to them. The constitution which his Bill would provide was one consisting nominally of a Senate with the Lord Chancellor at its head, and 10 members nominated by the Crown, who were not to be practising barristers or solicitors, but were to represent the general interests of society. Further, there were to be certain ex officio members—namely, the heads of the four principal Divisions of the High Court of Justice—the Master of the Rolls, the two Chief Justices, and the Lord Chief Baron—the Attorney General, the Solicitor
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  General, and the President of the Incorporated Law Society. There would be other members—barristers and solicitors. There would be 10 of each. Four of the barristers were to be elected by the Inns of Court, and the six others by barristers of five years' standing. Of the 10 solicitors, four would be elected by the Incorporated Law Society, and the six others by the solicitors of standing equal to that of the barristers who were to vote. Such was the constitution of the Governing Body. The assistance of the Inns of Court would be sought to provide funds for the teaching power. Lord St. Leonards placed some money in his hands some years ago for Exhibitions and that was accumulating; other persons would, no doubt, follow the example of that noble and learned Lord, and he was sure there would be such cooperation on the part of the Inns of Court that the teaching power would not be long in abeyance. According to the last accounts the sums received annually in educational fees under their examination system by the Inns of Court came to £4,000 or £5,000. Nearly an equal amount was received by the Incorporated Law Society from their system, so that he did not fear a want of funds. He thought that if these two systems could be brought together they should get a strong teaching power. At the Inns of Court the attendance at lectures was no longer made a passport to the Bar. But the examination came in its stead; and the consequence was that in the class-room and lecture-room the number of persons who were to be taught was narrowed, and, by diminishing the numbers, the more certainty would they diminish the vigour of the system, however good the lecturers and pupils might be. Some persons objected to the proposal that the lectures and classes should be opened indiscriminately and that there should be no separation of the two branches of the legal profession. He proposed that in the Senate regulations as to the educational qualifications of barristers should be made by the preponderating vote of barristers, and regulations as to the educational qualifications of solicitors should in like manner be made by the preponderating vote of solicitors. He must respectfully repudiate and protest against the notion that those who were to be barristers could gain anything by pursuing a separate

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  legal education from that pursued by the attorneys and solicitors before the real lines of demarcation came to be drawn. He held that up to the stage at which it was necessary for each branch of the profession to get within its own line, the students of both branches could pursue their studies together without any loss to the barristers, but to the great gain of the attorneys and solicitors, and through them of the public. He might in proof of this point to Scotland, where the Writers to the Signet, the solicitors, and the advocates studied together; and without disparagement of the legal profession in this country, the legal profession of Scotland might be compared with it in regard to honour and educational attainments. Though it was, perhaps, unusual for a man to quote himself, he would ask their Lordships to allow him to read some remarks he made three years ago on the subject of distinction of classes—
  "We, on the other hand, thought that in every point of view that"—namely, the distinction of classes—"is unnecessary, and, if unnecessary in every point of view, unwise; unwise, because those distinctions do not really exist or the occasion for them arise till practice begins; unwise, because the more you divide classes and narrow the boundaries of your lecture-room, the more you diminish your chances of success and efficiency: your numbers must be reduced, and with numbers, emulation, zeal, and interest—the interest and zeal of the lecturers and the interest and zeal of the pupils. We think it unwise, also because it must be desirable that all those going to practice in any branch of the profession should be admitted, if they wish to be admitted, to the best system of instruction we can give them, and we think it would be inconceivably unwise to condemn, (if we could condemn) that branch of the profession in whose hands most emphatically are the fortunes of mankind, the confidences of mankind, the affairs of families, who have to conduct all personal communications with clients, from whom all business must come to the Bar, to a lower and inferior kind of preparatory education than the best which they are willing to receive."
  He knew that a number of the most eminent persons among the Judges approved the united system; he knew that at least very many of the Bar approved it; and he was quite sure that the great body of the attorneys and solicitors throughout the country cordially supported it and anxiously desired it. In that opinion he entirely concurred. In proposing his measures at that late period of the Session he had not, of course, any idea of asking their Lordships to do more than give a first reading to the
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  measures which he submitted to the House. What he desired was that they should be considered by their Lordships, that public opinion should be elicited upon them, and if, as he hoped and believed, that opinion would be in their favour, then—giving due weight to such criticism and suggestions as might be offered—he would take the sense of their Lordships' House in reference to them at an early period of next Session. The noble and learned Lord then presented A Bill to incorporate the Inns of Court and to provide for the further administration of their affairs.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was quite sure his noble and learned Friend did not require to make any apology for bringing this subject under their Lordships' notice. It was a subject of great public importance. He was proud to think that the profession to which his noble and learned Friend and him self bad had the honour to belong was, if not the greatest, one of the greatest professions in the Kingdom. There was no profession the acts and conduct of which, and the acquirements for which, were of more interest in all the ramifications of society and in every branch both of public and of private life. But notwithstanding that, he ventured to say there was no profession the education and the preparation for which had up to this time been left so completely to be governed by accident and by the voluntary and fitful, and often the ill-conceived, efforts of private individuals or bodies. His noble and learned Friend had asked their Lordships to advance the first stage of the Bills to which he had referred, but stated that he did not purpose seeking to have them read a second time this Session. For many reasons he should prefer to have said nothing on the subject on this occasion, but to have waited until these measures had been taken up more seriously by the House; but as the question was one which he had always looked upon with great interest, he did not think he should refrain—after the very full explanation given by his noble and learned Friend—from at once expressing the views which he had been led to entertain, and how far he was able to concur in the scheme which had been indicated by his noble and learned Friend. It was very desirable, as his noble and learned Friend had said, to keep distinct the question of the Inns of

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  Court and their regulations, and that of, what he called, a Legal School or Legal University. He was not, however, quite sure that in working out the details of his scheme his noble and learned Friend had sufficiently maintained the distinction. Now, first, as to the Legal University—he thought they ought to have a precise and definite idea as to what was desirable in a supreme Legal University. There could not, in his opinion, be a greater mistake than to erect a Legal University in this country which would be more than an examining authority. What the public had a right to require and what Parliament had a right to provide was this—that there should be a body whose duty and functions would be to secure that no person was admitted to the Bar, or allowed to enter upon the practice of the other branch of the legal profession, without passing examinations with a view to test his fitness for entering that branch of the profession in which he desired to practise. His reason for saying that in his opinion the functions of that body ought not to extend further than examining was this—he believed that any attempt to provide funds for a new Legal School which would be a teaching school would fail and, next, he believed that if they set up a new teaching Legal School they must of necessity exhaust or destroy the Inns of Court and their capacity for teaching. He quite admitted the advantage which would arise if from any source, means could be obtained to found exhibitions or scholarships in connection with what he would term the Examining Legal University: but as to its own functions it ought not, in his view, to go beyond the extent of examining. As regarded the constitution of the University he agreed generally in what his noble and learned Friend had said, but he thought the Governing Body was very much too large. He thought the Inns of Court and the profession of Solicitors ought to be represented upon it, and that there ought to be members on the Senate chosen by the Crown, but the number proposed by his noble and learned Friend to constitute the Governing Body would in practice be found to be too large. He fully concurred with his noble and learned Friend that the Governing Body ought to take care that the area of examining was such as would thoroughly test the acquirements of
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  those who presented themselves for examination, and shew that the places where they had been educated were such as imparted competence and fitness for admission to the profession. With respect to funds for a legal University having that scope, nothing in his mind could be more simple than the mode of obtaining them. All that was required was to make it a condition that every person presenting himself for examination should, before examination, pay a certain sum of money; and the sums thus received would be perfectly adequate to maintain fully such a Legal University as he described. He now came to the question, what was to be the connection between the Inns of Court and the Legal University and how far the Inns of Court were to be interfered with? He quite agreed with his noble and learned Friend that the idea was not to be entertained for one moment that the Inns of Court were private Bodies in the sense of not being responsible to public opinion and to Parliament; or were Bodies who were to be allowed to continue to grant privileges in connection with the profession of the law, but were to be perfectly irresponsible as to what they did with their property or the powers they exercised. He could not, however, concur in his noble and learned Friend's proposal that Parliament should interfere to incorporate the Inns of Court and regulate their internal government and management. A safe and proper analogy to be acted upon in this case was, he thought, afforded by what Parliament did several years since with respect to Colleges and Universities, and which Parliament might now do with respect to the Inns of Court. A stop which he could not but think would be expedient for the Inns of Court was this—that they should be armed with Parliamentary powers for making statutes for their own regulation as places of learning and discipline, as the Colleges had been; that Commissioners should be appointed of a nature, standing, and position analogous to the Commissioners appointed for the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge; that the statutes should be submitted to the Queen in Council; and, further, if no statutes were submitted, or being submitted were not approved by Order in Council, that statutes should then be framed for them through the intervention of the Commissioners.

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  As in the case of the Colleges, care should be taken that the Inns of Court, as places of legal discipline and education, should be led to give an education as broad and liberal as possible, and without any attempt being made at the earlier stages of that education to draw lines of demarcation between the different branches of the profession or to narrow the education to be given into a mere dry acquirement of legal rules. The education ought to be large and wide and liberal, and any statutes that did not contemplate that result ought not, he thought, to meet with approbation. He owned that he was not altogether surprised that the Inns of Court did not approve, in the first instance, the proposal to regulate them by incorporation under Bills to be promoted in Parliament against them. He believed that if legislation proceeded upon the lines he had endeavoured to indicate, it would prove extremely beneficial. He knew no one in whose hands he should be more rejoiced to see such legislation than in those of his noble and learned Friend; and if his noble and learned Friend undertook it, he should be most happy to give him every support in his power. If, however, his noble and learned Friend did not do so, he should feel it to be his duty at some future time to make a proposal to Parliament on the subject.
  LORD HATHERLEYsaid, he felt great satisfaction in remarking the advance of opinion in the subject of legal education, since the Commissioners had inquired into the subject; and at the concurrence of opinion of the two noble and learned Lords who had just addressed them, which he trusted would result in the passing of an efficient measure for the establishment of a proper system. In 1845 the Commissioners who were appointed to inquire into the question recommended that a Legal University should be established, of which the Inns of Court should form the Colleges for the purpose of giving a general education in law as distinguished from the technical education which was obtained at a barrister's chambers—of which the public also might avail themselves and acquire a knowledge of the laws by which they were governed. If that proposal were adopted, justices of the peace and magistrates would become bettor acquainted with the laws which they were called upon to administer; and the
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  public in general would cease to look upon the law as a dry, barren, dreary, pestilential waste, full of pitfalls known only to those who were acquainted with its paths and who were prone to lie in wait to entrap the unwary; and would come to regard it in the true light as being a noble and beneficent institution for the maintenance of the good government of the country and of the contentment of all subjects of the Realm—for the distribution of property according to just rights, and for the efficient protection of society against fraud and violence. The Commission of 1845, of which he had the honour to be Chairman, was very much indebted to the Inns of Court for the candour and frankness with which they threw open all the accounts of their property to them; but the Commissioners, at the same time, felt that but very little good proportionate to the amount of their property resulted from the existence of these institutions. Lord Westbury took up the question of legal education very warmly; and subsequently his noble and learned Friend took a very leading part in advocating the establishment of a Legal University. His (Lord Hatherley's) desire was that a good sound legal education should be open to all, so that those who did not intend to practise at the Bar, such as military men, might acquire a fair knowledge of the principles of law. He should also rejoice to see the barrier that existed at present between the two branches of the profession broken down. On the whole, he thought the proposals of his noble and learned Friend deserved the most serious and careful attention of the profession and of Parliament.
  LORD WAVENEYwas understood to offer a few remarks in approval of the noble and learned Lord's scheme.
  Bill read 1a; and to be printed.—(No. 169.)

CASE OF ADMIRAL WTLMOT.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHin calling attention to the case of Admiral P. E. Wilmot removed from his command in the Mediterranean three years ago by the late Board of Admiralty said, he complained of the exceptional severity with which Admiral Wilmot had been treated

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  compared with Admiral Wellesley and the other officers concerned. It was true that both the Admirals were susperseded in consequence of their vessels running on the rock; but there was nothing in the case of Admiral Wilmot—to whose excellence as an officer he could bear personal testimony—which should call for the exceptional severity displayed towards him. The punishment inflicted on Admiral Wilmot would have the effect of depriving him of the rant to which he would be entitled by his 46 year's service. He trusted Her Majesty's Government would reconsider the case, and would afford Admiral Wilmot an opportunity of obtaining that rank to which he would otherwise be entitled. In seeking to obtain an assurance to that effect from the Government, he might add that he had not been instigated by Admiral Wilmot or by his friends.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he was not astonished that the noble Lord should have brought this subject forward, having heard him say that he had served under Admiral Wilmot. No doubt every word which the noble Lord had stated in regard to the Admiral's high professional character was deserved, but their Lordships must all feel that, however much a man deserved eulogium, public men had duties to perform which, though painful to them, must be gone through. The late Government had thought fit to supersede Admiral Wilmot and another officer—Admiral Wellesley—for what occurred off Gibraltar. He regretted that in advocating the cause of Admiral Wilmot the noble Lord should have drawn any comparison between the sentence awarded against him and that against his brother officer. Both officers were concerned in the misfortune, and perhaps if they went into particulars some difference in conduct might be found. At the same time, Admiral Wilmot's loss would not be so great as some understood, because in a few weeks he would be placed on the Retired List of Admirals; and it would have been a most unusual thing to give an officer a broken command for a few weeks in order that he might obtain a boon. His right hon. Friend at the head of the Admiralty had considered that the Admiral could not be again employed. The case of Admiral Wilmot had been considered with very great care by the Board of Admiralty, and it was not thought
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  possible to give him that command which it was his object and wish to obtain.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, that in bringing the subject before their Lordships he was actuated only by a desire to remove the stigma which might be supposed to rest on the reputation of the gallant Admiral concerned.

  POOR LAW AMENDMENT (REMOVAL) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law relating to the removal of the Poor—Was presented by The Lord HARTLSMERE.; read 1 a. (Ho. 168.)
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.