Sitting of 10 June 1873

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Navy (Promotion and Retirement), appointed; Boundaries of Parishes, Unions, and Counties, Mr. Ridley discharged, Mr. Cawley added.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Innkeepers Liability* [49], negatived; Education of Blind and Deaf-Mute Children [53], negatived; Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order (No.3)* [183].
Committee—Rating (Liability and Value)* [146]—R.P.
Withdrawn—Salmon Fisheries (No. 2)* [60].
The House met at Two of the clock.

REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS AND DEATHS BILL—QUESTION.
MR. W. H. SMITHasked the President of the Local Government Board, If any estimate has been made of the increased charge upon the local rates which will result from the provisions of the 26th and the 28th sections of the Registration of Births and Deaths Bill; and what that charge will be?
MR. STANSFELD,in reply, said, Section 26 would involve an additional charge of £9,877. Section 28 was for the provision of Register Offices, and he found that they were almost universally provided already. He might add that

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he had received deputations with reference to the money clauses of the Bill, and that he was not prepared at present to say by what figures he would abide. He should make a short statement on the subject before going into Committee on the Bill.

LAW OF CONSPIRACY.—QUESTION.
MR. VERNON HARCOURTasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the Government will be willing to afford such facilities in respect of time as may make it possible to pass a Bill, during the present Session, to remedy the defects of the Law of Conspiracy as applied to Trade Combinations, and the relations of Master and Servant?
MR. GLADSTONE: I can say on the part of the Government we shall look with favour and goodwill upon any attempt made by the hon. and learned Gentleman to remedy the Law of Conspiracy, whether it be in the present or in the coming Session of Parliament. If, however, my hon. and learned Friend should think it desirable to go forward with the subject during the present Session, I can further say we shall have every desire to afford him facilities; but these facilities must depend on the nature of the Bill, and the objects for which it is framed. Consequently, I cannot give a more positive answer until we see the Bill.

MERCANTILE MARINE—DANGER SIGNALS.—QUESTION.
MR. HANBURY-TRACYasked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether his attention has been called to the "danger signals at sea" recommended by Admiral Sir William Hall; and, if so, whether he proposes to carry out any experiments with the view of seeing how far it might be advisable to adopt them generally in the Mercantile Marine?
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE,in reply, said, that his attention had been called to the signals in question, but he was bound to add that they were a form of signal of which it would be impossible to require the general and compulsory adoption. He had further to state that he was perfectly willing the signals should be tried among the experiments with respect to ship lights which the Board of Trade was now carrying on at Shoeburyness.

CHINA—COOLIE TRADE, MACAO.

  QUESTION.
  SIR CHARLES WINGFIELDasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he will lay upon the Table Copies of the Despatch of the Secretary of State for the Colonies to the Governor of Hong Kong directing measures to be taken to prevent the fitting-out of ships at Hong Kong for the Macao Coolie Trade, and of any other Papers on this subject?
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN,in reply, said, it had been found that the provisions of the Act of last year could not be entirely adopted in the case of Hong Kong, and some Correspondence was going on with regard to it. As soon as that Correspondence had closed there would be no objection to lay the whole of it on the Table.

VISIT OF THE SHAH OF PERSIA.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BOWRINGasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he can furnish the House with the names of those gentlemen who have been selected by the Government to attend on the Shah of Persia during his approaching visit to this Country?
  VISCOUNT ENFIELD: Sir, Major General Sir Henry Rawlinson, formerly Minister of this country in Persia; Colonel Sir Arnold Kemball, formerly Consul General at Bagdad; Major Byrne, Oriental Aide-de-Camp to the Secretary of State for India; and Captain Grey have been appointed by Her Majesty's Government to proceed to Brussels and accompany the Shah to England and attend on him during his stay in England. In England a Lord-in-Waiting, an Equerry-in-Waiting, and a Groom-in-Waiting will attend upon the Shah on behalf of the Queen. Moreover, Mr. Ronald Thomson, late Chargé d'Affaires at Teheran, and Dr. Dickson, Physician to the Legation at Teheran, have accompanied the Shah at his request from Persia.

  PARLIAMENT—COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE—DIVISIONS.—QUESTION.
  MR. HERMONsaid, he wished, as morning sittings had now commenced, to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he cannot make some arrange-

  725
  ment by which Members of Committees upstairs will be afforded a little more time to reach the House from the Committee Rooms, so as to be able to record their Votes on the Amendments on the Bills which may happen to be under discussion in the House?
  MR. GLADSTONE,in reply, said, that he had had no opportunity of looking into the subject. He was afraid the inconvenience referred to was due to the magnificent proportions of the building in which they were assembled, which appeared to him to have been devised with a regard to other purposes than the transaction of business. He was sorry to add that he could not suggest a remedy for the inconvenience; but if on any special occasion the matter were brought under his notice, he should, so far as he was able, endeavour to meet the hon. Gentleman's wishes.

  RATING (LIABILITY AND VALUE) BILL.— [BILL 146.]
  (Mr. Stansfeld, Mr. Secretary Bruce, Mr. Goschen, Mr. Hibbert.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. SCOURFIELDrose to move the Amendment which had been put upon the Paper by the hon. and gallant Member for South Wiltshire (Captain Grove)—namely, that the Order for the Committee be discharged, and that the Bill be committed to a Select Committee—but which had been yesterday withdrawn from the Notice Paper. He entertained so strong a feeling of the injustice done to the ratepayers of the country, and of the want of a fair interpretation by the Government of the Resolution of the hon. Member for South Devon (Sir Massey Lopes), that he would take every opportunity of obtaining the fullest discussion of the proposals of this Bill. The people of England were divided into two classes—those who paid rates, and those who did not pay them; and not only were those who paid rates unduly burdened, but those who did not pay rates lost no opportunity of accumulating upon those who did every possible amount of additional expense. Since the Resolution of last year, not a single
  726
  step had been taken to diminish the amount of the rates, but they were threatened to be largely increased for educational and sanitary purposes. An increase in the rates of 3d., 4d., 5d., or even 6d. was thought nothing of by those who did not pay them, although, were the Chancellor of the Exchequer to attempt to raise 2d. in the pound in order to meet some financial exigency, it would be fatal to the Government. The inflation of the rates was due to the action of Commissioners and Inspectors of various kinds who were always ready to be charitable and benevolent with other people's money. He wished to know what prospect we had of our rates being diminished by the action of the present Government. The Prime Minister, on two separate occasions, in his memorable address at Liverpool and recently at the Literary Fund, had entered into elaborate calculations to show the vast increase that had occurred in our national wealth in the course of the last 80 or 90 years. But the ratepayers at large said that they had not participated in this prosperity, and they complained of the tendency there was at the present day to increase the rates. Neither the magistrates nor the Board of Guardians were open to the charge of extravagance in dealing with the rates, and every attempt on their part to exercise due economy was met by those who did not pay rates with an outcry against their parsimony. On the part of the ratepayers he objected to such an enormous mass of property being exempt from the payment of rates. The House had been told that it was intended by this Bill to abolish all invidious exemptions; but the first exemptions to be done away with were those of hospitals and ragged schools. Petitions had been presented from all parts of the country, showing that the general feeling was against the abolition of such exemptions as these, on the ground that either these institutions would suffer, or else that the deficiency in their income caused by their being subjected to rates, would have to be made up by the very few persons who supported them. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the Amendment.
  COLONEL BARTTELOT,in seconding the Amendment, said, he thought his hon. Friend had done good service in bringing the Amendment before the

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  House, because the right hon. Gentleman at the head of Her Majesty's Government always taunted the Members on the Opposition benches if they did not take those legitimate opportunities which were at their disposal of discussing, and discussing fairly, any great question of this kind. But he was surprised at the course taken by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for South Wiltshire (Captain Grove), who, he should have thought, would have taken warning by that speech of the Solicitor General the other night in which he asked what was the meaning of "gallant" or "learned." He (Colonel Barttelot) always thought that "gallant" at any rate meant sticking to a point, and that the word could not properly be applied to a deserter. The hon. and gallant Member for South Wiltshire, therefore, no longer deserved the name of "gallant," but his hon. Friend (Mr. Scourfield) was gallant because he had stood in the breach and was ready to perform the duties which the hon. and gallant Member for South Wiltshire had failed to perform. He should like to know what the constituents of the hon. and gallant Member for South Wiltshire thought of the conduct of their Member, who, after he had given Notice of an Amendment, suddenly disappeared from the scene, and who, so far as he (Colonel Barttelot) on looking round the House could ascertain, was not present even for the purpose of vindicating his abandonment of the Notice he had given. Although the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Local Government Board had told the House that he was beset with difficulties with reference to the mode in which mines, woodlands, shooting, and fishing were to be rated, it was his duty to have placed before the House what his notions were on those matters. There was scarcely a Bill introduced by the Government which did not propose some new charge on the local rates, and he did not know where they were going to lead to. Although the Local Government Board disavowed any wish for centralization, the fact was that in everything that was now done in local matters centralization was becoming more complete, and far heavier burdens in respect of union workhouses, gaols, lunatic asylums, &c., were put upon localities than those which would have been put upon them if the local authorities had been
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  allowed to administer their own affairs. He (Colonel Barttelot) had never gone so far as some people in regard to the relief of local taxation; and if either the Premier or the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stansfeld) would say these two Bills were simply the outwork of some great scheme which was to be for the general relief of the whole of this country, then he (Colonel Barttelot) would enter upon the discussion of these two Bills heart and soul. But if they declined to show what remained of, to adopt the phrase of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stansfeld), that garment of which these measures were the mere fringe, and which fringe might be torn away at any moment, he thought the Government were not entitled to ask the House to proceed to discuss these Bills.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the Bill be committed to a Select Committee,"—(Mr. Scourfield,)—instead thereof.
  MR. PEASEreminded the House that this was a Bill for bringing in property which was now exempted from rating. He thought it essentially an equitable Bill; but he hoped that before proceeding with it they should have a pledge from the Government that they would go on with the second Bill. The owners of mines were also entitled to know on what principle the rating of mines would be carried out. In consequence of his not knowing whether the Government intended if possible to proceed pari passu with the two Bills, he had experienced some difficulty in framing the Amendments of which he had given Notice. The Bill placed the House in an unfair position with regard to the rating of woodlands, game, and mines, Her Majesty's Government not having given a single indication of the course they intended to take. There was hardly a lead mine in Durham that was doing more than paying its working expenses, and numbers of the men were leaving them and going to the collieries. In Cornwall hundreds of fine young men were also leaving the country on account of the depressed condition of the mining interest. He believed that hospitals were rated to the poor; but now hospitals, private hospitals and convalescent homes did a great deal more good than ragged schools, and there-

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  fore he thought the Bill would operate beneficially in withdrawing this exemption. He wished to know, whether the Government would, so far as it was in their power, proceed with both of the Bills this Session?
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, the Government intended to press forward both the Bills on this subject. They had, if not a vital, at all events a very close connection, and the Government thought it would be quite possible to pass both measures in a satisfactory shape during the present Session. With regard to the Motion that had been made, he thought it was a serious matter for the hon. and gallant Gentleman who seconded it (Colonel Barttelot) to criticize the personal conduct of the hon. and gallant Member who originally gave Notice of it (Captain Grove), and especially with regard to the question of bona fides. He fully admitted, however, that the hon. Member for Pembrokeshire (Mr. Scourfield) was perfectly justified in making the Motion without Notice when he found it was about to be withdrawn. The speech of the hon. Member was the best justification of the course taken by the hon. and gallant Member for South Wiltshire (Captain Grove); because, except at the close, it had no reference whatever to the Motion itself, because it was a speech founded entirely upon the objections which the hon. Member entertained to the general conduct of the Government. Such a speech, in strict consistency, should have been followed by a Motion censuring the Government or proposing the rejection of the Bill. If the Session were prolonged to one of considerable length, there might be time to dispose of the Bill after it came down from the Select Committee. But, in the ease of such a measure, the labours of no Select Committee could dispense with the necessity of considerable discussion in Committee of the Whole House; and the result of the Motion—probably, indeed, its object—was to delay if not to defeat the Bill. Now, the question was whether a measure, removing exemptions and dealing with the rate ability of Government property, was worth having or not. The Government, it was said, ought to have introduced a measure, giving direct effect to the Resolution of the hon. Member for South Devon (Sir Massey Lopes); and they had been charged with disobedience or treason to
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  the authority of the House in the introduction of these Bills. According to this contention, it was the duty of the Executive Government to obey absolutely and implicitly a Resolution of the House of Commons. Now, in his view that proposition could not be sustained, and it was not to the interest of the House of Commons itself that the proposition should be sustained; for its effect would be to carry the House of Commons beyond its legitimate province, making it the absolute and actual Director of the Executive in a way which would greatly injure the working of the Government. He admitted that when a Resolution had been passed by the House of Commons declaring that it was not the duty of the Government to impose such and such a charge, the Government were bound to obey. But such was not the case here; the question was one of policy, and the Government had gone as far as they could properly go in undertaking to deal with the entire question to which the Resolution related, in the order which appeared to them essential. Do not let it be said, therefore, that the Government had disobeyed the Resolution of the House of Commons. What they had done was to determine that in dealing with the Resolution of the hon. Member for South Devon the natural order of procedure was first to determine the amount and character of property which, according to the spirit and intention of the present law, was liable to bear the burden of local charges. Nor was this an unimportant matter, even in the view of the hon. Gentleman, because the question of Government rate ability was itself involved, and financially that question was one of no small moment. He was not then prepared to state the number of millions of real property held by the Government, but it held tens of millions, and it was no small matter to determine in what degree Government property should become liable to charge. The Bill proposed to deal with a variety of questions of exemption; it was most desirable—in fact, there was a unanimous wish—to come to some settlement on the subject. Would not the proposal to send it to a Select Committee render its passing uncertain? It was plain that the proposal was adverse to the purposes of the Government. Was it favourable to the purposes of the hon. Gentleman himself? Decidedly not;

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  and even if the opposition to the Government's proposals were taken as a distinct intimation that the Resolution of last year should be acted on, it should be remembered that the Government had no means of doing so, because every shilling at their disposal in the current year had been voted away by the unanimous Resolution of the House, for, although there was a debate on the subject, there was no division. What, then, would be gained by obstructing the progress of the Bill? The object of the Government would be thwarted by so doing, and the proposals of the hon. Member for South Devon would not be forwarded. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Captain Grove) referred to a Bill before them the other night which contained a proposal likely to increase local charges. The hon. and gallant Gentleman would soon have an opportunity of determining whether the Government really wished to treat the Resolutions of the House with respect or not. The Government had considered the point raised the other night by the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Magniac), and hoped to make a proposal which would be approved by the House to prevent them unfairly going to an issue which would complicate subjects already complicated sufficiently. He trusted that the House would consider that the best course to take was to go into Committee on the Bill.
  MR. HUNTsaid, that if he remembered rightly, the right hon. Gentleman, under similar circumstances to those which he now complained, talked of "running away from the gleam of his own arms." The expressions of the right hon. Gentleman had an abiding place in his mind. He (Mr. Hunt) would remind the House that the Government had shown a sense of the necessity for making some change between local and Imperial taxation in 1871, when the present First Lord of the Admiralty made an elaborate statement to the House on the subject. Now, the President of the Local Government Board brought in two measures which he admitted to be incomplete; but excused himself by the plea that he had touched only the fringe of the subject. His complaint, however, was that the proposals of the Government, so far as they touched the fringe of the subject, wore incomplete, and that it was necessary to
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  send the Bills to a Select Committee, that this incompleteness might be corrected. The House was not a fit body to fill in the details of the skeleton measures submitted by the Government. If the Government had laid before the House a proposition of their plan, if they had developed their scheme for the rating of mines, of timber, of game, of fishing, and of Government property, the House might have discussed these points in Committee. But these propositions were laid on the Table in blank. [No, no!] The Government had not laid down the rule on which metalliferous mines were to be assessed, or timber, or game, or fishing; but the whole subject was proposed to be left to the judgment of the assessment committees, who would find themselves totally unable to deal with the questions, and would each deal with them in a different way. This was a matter which Parliament ought to take upon itself, for it was certain uniformity would not be secured in any other way. The right hon. Gentleman had said that if they were to refer the Bill to a Select Committee they would run the risk of defeating it. Well, for his own part he did not think it possible that the Bill could assume so complete a shape this Session as to pass into law, and therefore he had no objection that the rest of the Session should be occupied in trying to improve it, and then let it form a portion of the complete scheme of the Government next year, so that the House might have before it not only the fringe but the whole garment. He believed that more progress would be made in a Select Committee than in a Committee of the Whole House, and he therefore trusted that the Government would agree to the adoption of that course.
  MR. GOLDSMIDsaid, there was one good thing in this poor little Bill, and that was that it brought under rating Government property which had not hitherto been reached. This would relieve some districts from heavy local charges on account of the large agglomeration of Government property; but the method of rating it proposed was most unsatisfactory, for it was provided by the 7th clause, that the Treasury—the most parsimonious Department of the Government—should settle for itself how much it should contribute. If the locality was not satisfied with the amount of the contribution, what

  733
  was the remedy? Why, it was to be put to the serious expense of coming before a Committee upstairs. But the locality might reasonably say that the expense was certain, and the result of an inquiry before a Committee uncertain, and therefore might think it better to put up with a wrong. The proposal in Clause 7 was therefore unfair, and he hoped the House of Commons would never adopt it. He was glad that mines, game, and Underwood would now be rated; but the Government did not tell the House in what way this was to be done, nor did they appear to have formed any plan on the subject. On the contrary, as before in the case of the Education, the Government remitted the difficult part of the question to the local committees, the result of which would be that before long the House of Commons would be loudly called upon to provide a remedy for the evils which would be sure to arise. They ought, therefore, to call upon Her Majesty's Government to prepare some scheme by which the assessment might be regulated, which should meet with the general acceptance of the House. Nothing conferred a greater benefit on the poor or really relieved the rates more than a hospital, and therefore he would be glad to see all hospitals exempted from local rates. He was also opposed to the rating of ragged schools; and he should never be a party to any measures which should impose rates upon two such institutions. With respect to the proposition for referring the Bill to a Select Committee, if he thought that the Committee would prepare a good scheme he would assent to the Amendment; but looking at the way in which Committees were nominated, he doubted the wisdom of adopting such a proposition. If the Government would declare their readiness to prepare a scheme the necessity of sending this Bill to a Select Committee would be altogether avoided, and if they would adhere to their declaration not to throw any additional burden on the local rates they would avoid a good deal of the opposition which they would otherwise have to encounter.
  MR. PELLobserved, that scarcely a single word had been said in favour of the Bill, which was admitted on all hands to be a most imperfect scheme. He was not prepared to adopt the suggestion
  734
  which had been thrown out with reference to the preparation of a scheme by the Government in preference to the Motion for sending the Bill to a Select Committee. He thought they ought to have some clearer enunciation from the Government of the principle on which mines were to be rated before proceeding further with the Bill. He did not conceive that the steps suggested by the Government would really lead them to the conclusion at which they ought to arrive in reference to the adjustment of local and Imperial taxation. In his opinion, the Valuation Bill should be considered before they came to the other branches of the subject; and many questions connected with the rating of Government property required to be examined. Many Members on the Ministerial side were dissatisfied with the way in which that Bill had been brought in and explained, and he saw no reason why they should not support the moderato proposal for refering it to a Select Committee.
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCKsaid, there was one question involved in the Bill which had not yet received the attention it deserved—namely, the effect of the clause introducing the rating of timber. In considering this question, it was necessary to ask whether the quantity of woodland was undesirably large or not? There could be no doubt that the effect of the Bill would be to encourage the removal of timber. Mr. Clutton, a very high authority, in a letter to him, said—
  "If timber is rated it will certainly cause a large quantity to be removed; and so large a quantity has already been removed for cultivation that I think it most impolitic that a further impetus should be given to the present rate of destruction."
  There could be no doubt that in other countries great changes of climate had followed the destruction of forests. Many long-civilized countries now suffered greatly from drought owing to that cause. Now, what was our position in that respect? Russia had 39 per cent of her surface underwood; Prussia, 28 per cent; France, 16 per cent; Switzerland, 15 per cent; Great Britain only 2 per cent. Dr. Hooker, who had had the opportunity of studying that question in the East, wrote to him that he "should regard any general measure that would interfere with the remaining woods of England as a very hazardous one." No doubt it

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  was true that this country, from its insular character and from the neighbourhood of the ocean, was in a peculiar position; but had they any great advantage to gain from running that risk? The difficulties of rating timber were great, and the questions it would raise very intricate. In the letter from which he had already quoted Mr. Glutton said—
  "I do not think the increased rateable value to be obtained by rating timber is worth the expense and trouble which will be necessarily incurred."
  He also confessed he should deeply regret any measure which caused the destruction of the fine timber which was so great an ornament to this country. He must also express his concurrence in the remarks of the hon. Member for Pembrokeshire (Mr. Scourfield) with reference to the rating of literary and scientific societies. He trusted Government would not press that proposal, for surely the very trifling relief of rates to be obtained would be dearly purchased by the discouragement of scientific and literary pursuits.
  MR. CLARE READobserved, that everyone who had looked over the Bill must consider it a mere skeleton, and that a Select Committee was the proper authority to put flesh upon it. It appeared, also, to be almost a direct contradiction to the Bill that would follow it, which provided for uniform deductions in order to arrive at the rateable value. There they had a Bill which brought into assessment a large portion of property which did not now pay rates, and did not lay down any principle on which that assessment was to be founded. The Government had issued an edict "Let woods, game, and mines be rated," and they expected them to be forthwith justly and equally assessed. The hon. Member for Maidstone (Sir John Lubbock) had referred to the case of woods. If they got rid of woods they could not get rid of the land, which must produce something, and that something was liable to be rated. Whether it produced mutton or wheat, the effect of rating was, no doubt, a considerable burden on the production of the necessaries of life. He had been that morning at a meeting of the Chamber of Agriculture, at which these Bills had been discussed; and although the Chamber cordially agreed that mines, planta-
  736
  tions, growing timber, fowling, shooting, sporting, and fishing should be assessed; yet it also said that, in the absence of all principles on which they were to be assessed, they would unsettle everything and settle nothing, and produce such irregularity and variety of assessment as would lead to endless litigation and expense. He would much rather discuss Amendments in a Committee upstairs, composed of practical and business men, than in a Committee of the Whole House, and he therefore cordially supported the proposal to refer the Bill to a Select Committee.
  CAPTAIN GROVEsaid, he wished to explain that previous to the Recess he had been asked to take action with regard to the Bill, and that he had, accordingly, placed a Notice on the Paper for its reference to a Select Committee. He was at the time strongly of opinion that the adoption of that course would result in making it a much more satisfactory measure; but when he went down to the country some 10 days ago, he had an opportunity of consulting many gentlemen who took an active part on assessment committees in Wiltshire, and he found they thought that the Bill might very well be modified in Committee of the Whole House, and that to refer it to a Select Committee would in all probability be to shelve it for the present Session. That being so, he had on his return to town consulted with the hon. Baronet the Member for South Devon (Sir Massey Lopes), and other hon. Gentlemen who were anxious that he should persevere with his Amendment, but he found that other Gentlemen with whom he communicated where of a different opinion. That being so, he had given Notice at the earliest opportunity, that he wished to withdraw the Amendment, so that any other hon. Member who desired to do so might take up the matter. He admitted that the Bill was very imperfect; but if the Government would meet them in a fair way, he thought they might still make it a very good Bill in a Committee of the Whole House. As regarded woods, he knew that in many parts of his county trees were constantly planted for no other purpose than to shelter the land, and were utterly valueless as far as producing an annual return, but inasmuch as through the shelter they afforded the land, the adjoining fields were more

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  productive and consequently were rated higher than they would be without this shelter, it would be unfair to rate such timber separately, as it already indirectly paid rates, and he thought they were entitled to know upon what principle it was proposed to rate that kind of property.
  MR. FLOYERsaid, the hon. and gallant Gentleman had, no doubt, a perfect right to change, and had probably very good reasons for doing so. Looking at the question on its merits, however, he thought it desirable that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee. As things at present stood, the principle upon which property was rated to the poor and other rates was perfectly clear and had been acted upon. That state of things the Bill proposed to alter, and if the House went at once into Committee it would have no guide to go by, for the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had laid down no principle on which the assessment committees should proceed, except with respect to Government property. Now, that that property should be rated was perfectly proper; but what he complained of was that the House was left at sea in the case of all other property, so that there being as many as 619 assessment committees, each would be left to take its own line as to the principles on which those various classes of property were to be assessed. What a puzzle would thus be created for the Judges who were the interpreters of the law, and who would have no fixed rule to guide their decisions. As to the taunt that those who wished to refer the Bill to a Select Committee sought to delay its passing, he would only observe that the more haste the less speed, and that the House would be the more likely to get on the faster with it if they knew where they were going. He, for one, had no wish to delay the Bill; but the Government ought to indicate the principles on which they meant to proceed, or admit their inability to do so. It was useless to proceed with this measure in the hope that on some future occasion the Government would see fit to make a declaration of their intentions on this subject. If material alterations were to be made in the Bill, they should be introduced when the measure was before a Select Committee and not in Committee of the Whole House. Under these circum-
  738
  stances, he should support the Amendment.
  MR. WYKEHAM MARTINsaid, he thought a Select Committee would be a most unsuitable tribunal before which to send a measure of this kind, because unless the Whip was certain which way the Member would vote, he took care that he was not placed on the Committee. Consequently, the vote of every Member might be predicted with almost absolute certainty, and the consequence was that the Report was carried by the casting vote of the Chairman, and it was treated as a nullity by the House. He recollected an instance in which the Chairman of a Select Committee, after speaking for a considerable time, ceased directly two Members of his way of thinking came in, and said he should not trouble the Committee with any further reasons, whereupon the late Mr. Graves said—"Your other reasons have just entered the room."
  SIR RAINALD KNIGHTLEYsaid, that by this Bill the Government had recognized the right of the owner of the soil to the wild uncaptured game on his land for the first time; but if game was to be rated as property it must be protected as property. The Game Laws greatly required to be placed on a more satisfactory footing, for it was absurd to treat tame pheasants, bred by their owners, as private property when they were slaughtered, but as "savage wild beasts" when living, if they happened to stray from the place where they were bred into the neighbouring woods and copses. He should like to hear from the Government whether they proposed to place the Game Laws on a better and more sensible footing.
  SIR HENRY HOAREsaid, he should vote for referring the Bill to a Committee of the Whole House, because he did not think it was desirable that its progress should be any further delayed; but, at the same time, he thought that some declaration should be made as to how woods were to be rated. It was hardly fair to rate them as a source of income the moment they became productive, when for perhaps 50 years before they had been nothing but a source of expense. Country houses also could hardly be treated as a source of income, when, as was frequently the case, they were a large source of expenditure—indeed, in many cases it cost a man

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  several hundreds a-year not to live in his country house. He should like to see the definition by Government of the body who were to rate these houses, and an explanation of the manner in which they were to be rated. He thought that a Select Committee was not exactly the body which would clothe this skeleton Bill with shape, and put it into a proper form this year.
  MR. CORRANCEsaid, his objection to the measure was that, by the express opinion of hon. Gentlemen well qualified to form an opinion, it was incomplete, shadowy, and should not in its present shape have been submitted to the House. He could not consent to flinging Bills on the Table of the House in this state. Not only was the present measure incomplete, it was also unjust. The House had lately been troubled with several Bills which resembled this one in their imperfections. Last year the House passed that sanitary measure which Judge Blackburn had said was an unintelligible jumble. He thought the proper course to adopt with reference to this Bill was to submit it to a Select Committee.
  MR. BRISTOWEremarked that hon. Members had lost sight of that which was the substance of the Bill. In reading the Bill a second time, the House had given its assent to the principle that properties which had hitherto been exempted should hereafter be liable to be rated. But he did not understand the right hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill to say from first to last that he intended to make any alteration in the principle of assessing property; and they must therefore assume that the property proposed to be brought within the area of liability would be assessed upon the basis of the Parochial Assessment Act, until that matter could be dealt with by a future measure. He admitted that when they attempted to apply the Parochial Assessment Act to a tenant who was taking away the corpus of the property which it was proposed to rate they were attempting to do that which was inconsistent with the principles of that Act; but it had been done for many years in the case of coal mines, and therefore it was not impossible to apply the same principles to other mines. It seemed to him that the reasonable plan was that the Bill should simply propose to place mines under rating, and leave
  740
  it to another time to determine the principle on which the rating should be applied. He thought ragged schools had a fair claim to be exempted from rating; but he could not understand why hospitals, literary societies, &c., should be exempted from rating, and for this reason—the benefit of them was not exactly coterminous with the parishes in which they stood. As to the assessment of Government property, he would leave that to be dealt with in Committee. He was altogether opposed to referring the Bill to a Select Committee, as he felt convinced that the whole subject would be re-opened again in that House, and much valuable time would therefore have been lost.
  MR. COLLINSsaid, he thought the House had taken a wise course in exempting ragged schools; but if there was a good case for ragged schools, there was a much stronger one for public elementary schools. The basis on which such exemptions should rest should be that where any body of persons kept up an institution which saved the ratepayers a large sum of money, they should not be also called upon to pay out of their own pockets for the rates of the district generally. He did not think there was much to be said for the exemption of literary and scientific institutions, which were often little more than middle class clubs. But as the Bill appeared to him at present in a very unsatisfactory shape, he thought it should be referred to a Select Committee.
  LORD GEORGE CAVENDISHsaid, he thought it would be unwise to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, and stand shivering on the brink of legislation on this subject. His experience of referring Bills to such Committees had not been very inviting. The question would be re-opened on the Report, and the same ground would be gone over again. He referred the House to the Reports of the Committees which sat 15 years ago and six years ago on the question of rating mines and woods, where they would find the subject discussed at the greatest length in every possible shape. He thought it impossible for the Government to lay down any principle of assessment which would be generally satisfactory; and it appeared to him that the better plan would be the formation of county or district assessment committees who should lay down a principle to be

  741
  recognized in the rating of the district. He was surprised that hon. Gentlemen opposite should not strive to remedy the existing inequality in the rating of mines under a system which, for example, exempted mines worked by a shaft but made liable those worked by a quarry.
  MR. LOPESsaid, the House desired to know on what principle woods and plantations would be liable to rating. Even upon the principle of what was called a hypothetical tenant, it would be difficult for any overseer to make the assessment. But while the Government in 1873 were studiously reticent as to the principle of valuation which would be applied to those properties, in 1871 they were much more communicative, for the Local Taxation Bill then introduced by them provided that where any land was occupied as plantations or woods, the gross value and rateable value should not be less than they would be respectively if such land were occupied for ordinary purposes of agriculture, either as pasture or arable land. That would be a very unjust principle. He had hardly heard a word of praise of the Bill, and should heartily support the Motion to refer it to a Select Committee.
  MR. CRAUFURDsaid, what was complained of was that the Government would not give any indication of the principles upon which they were going to act. Some hon. Members had spoken against referring the Bill to a Select Committee on the ground that it would waste time; but the proposal of the Government involved, according to the Prime Minister, the taxation of millions of property, and therefore it behaved them not to proceed too precipitately. He had supported the second reading because he thought it was right that the property included in it should be rated; but hitherto the question had been discussed as an English one. What he wanted to know was, why there should be the constantly recurring clause—"This Act shall not apply to Scotland or Ireland." Was there no Government property in Scotland? He had himself introduced a Bill this Session, in which he proposed that Government property in Scotland should be rated for the poor rates. In the parish of Canongate, in Edinburgh, seven-eighths of the area was Government property, and more would he accumulated from time to
  742
  time in various parts of Scotland. Ayr, for instance, was to be a military centre, and when the depôt was formed, Ayr would be deprived of some of its rateable value. Scotland had a principle of assessment in use in some cases. Woods, for instance, were assessed, according to acreage, at the value of the grazing grounds in the same parish. That also was the rule in Ireland, he believed. In Scotland also they had laid down a rule for rating all game that had a money value. Why should not these rules be considered with a view to the enactment of some plan which should be universal in its application? The Bill so far as it went was admirable; and it would be altogether satisfactory if its details were supplied by a Select Committee. The President of the Local Government Board might submit a scheme to that Committee, which would be far better able to deal with the matter than the House. This plan was preferable even at the risk of postponing the Bill for another year. There was no necessity for haste. Surely hon. Members were superior to the anxiety to be doing something regardless of imperfections. It should be the ambition of Parliament to create good Acts, not merely to swell the Statute Book.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, that, knowing the great soreness and irritability that prevailed upon this subject out of doors, he was surprised that the Government did not avail themselves of the advantage to be obtained through a Select Committee. He was also surprised that they did not seem to consider the time of the House. There were four new principles in the Bill in reference to the kind of things that were to be taxed; and as to three of them, there was not the slightest intimation of the principle upon which it was proposed that the assessment should be based. The subject was full of difficulties, and it could not properly be discussed in the House except at an enormous waste of time. In a Select Committee there could soon be sketched out a plan upon which the rating should be carried out; and this was essential in order that the principle of rating should be uniform in different places. If the House had nothing definite before them, what chance was there of coming to a satisfactory conclusion? They had already had the question of rating mines before them for years; and there would

  743
  be equal difficulty in rating game. There was soil where game almost sprung up of itself, and other soil where, do what you would, you could not have it; and how were these different properties to be assessed? He could not conceive that the Government designed to send forth this Bill to the assessment committees without some more definite plan to guide them than it at present contained. If they did, the confusion in the future would far exceed anything which had occurred in the past. A Select Committee would fill in the skeleton plan of the Government, and make the Bill as perfect as possible, which was extremely important when they considered that what was proposed was only part of a much larger subject.
  MR. STANSFELDexpressed his obligation to the hon. Member (Mr. W. Martin) for his sound and telling argument against the reference of this measure to a Select Committee; and he also thanked the hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Bristowe) for his argument in favour of the Bill. No doubt it was true, as had been said, that a Bill of this kind must produce much opposition, because it touched important interests; and therefore the observations made by hon. Members representing those interests upon the Bill were rather likely to be of a critical than an approving character. The hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. Goldsmid) criticized the clause as to the exemption of Government property from rating. He said that it was extremely unfair that the question of the amount at which such property should be assessed should be left to Parliament, because in this way Parliament would virtually be a judge in its own cause. But there was no choice except that Parliament should be the judge in all matters affecting its own interests. Suppose that Parliament were to adopt the view that Government property should be rated according to the ideas of the local assessment committees, the thing might pass this year; but the question would arise in future years when the Vote for providing the money came before the House. It was impossible, therefore, to divest the House of Commons of the right to judge. The best opportunity for discussing clauses would be found in Committee; and therefore his hon. Friend must be content with some rather general remarks at
  744
  present. He was quite prepared, however, to say that he would accept the principle of arbitration which his hon. Friend (Mr. Stone) gave Notice he would propose, provided he was permitted to reserve the freedom not so much of Government as of Parliament and this House. He would therefore place upon the Paper a form of words the effect of which would be to enable Government, through the Treasury or the Local Government Board, as the case might be, to agree, if possible, with the local assessment committees as to the gross and rateable valuation of Government property. He would then propose that, failing such agreement, recourse should be had to arbitration; but the functions of the arbitrator should be to propose a conditional valuation, the values to be inserted in the schedule of a Bill, so that Parliament might have the power of deciding for itself with all the facts before it on the principle and mode of assessing Government property. He had not forgotten the remarks made by his hon. Friend the Member for North Hants (Mr. Sclater-Booth), when he said it was a very serious matter to bring all Government property within the area of rateability, and that it was not a subject to be broached in any light, perfunctory, or superficial way. If he had done so, the Government would have been justly condemned at some future time for having tied the hands of the House of Commons without affording it that minute knowledge which the case required. The hon. Baronet the Member for Maidstone (Sir John Lubbock) spoke against the rating of woods and plantations, thinking that the effect of it would be to discourage both the one and the other. But his hon. Friend must have forgotten that according to the law of Scotland this kind of property was rated in that country, and he had yet to learn that hill sides in Scotland were not so well clothed with wood as they were in England. As showing the discursive character of this debate, e had been appealed to by the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Rainald Knightley) to give his opinion upon the Game Laws, but he must decline to answer that appeal; whilst he denied the logic of the statement that he could not tax game because game was not property. What he proposed to tax was that incorporeal heredita-

  745
  ment, the right of sporting, a thing which was already rated in Scotland. The hon. Member for East Suffolk (Mr. Corrance) had referred to a judgment of Mr. Justice Blackburn, alleging that that learned Judge's remarks applied to the Sanitary Act of last year, and arguing that it was a loosely and badly-drawn Act. Now, the remarks of Mr. Justice Blackburn had naturally arrested his attention at the time. He had read them carefully, and was prepared to assert that they did not refer to the Sanitary Act of last year, but to the numerous Acts passed during the preceding 20 years, which had undoubtedly involved the law in considerable confusion, and to remove which the Local Government Board had deemed it necessary to prepare a digest of the sanitary laws for the guidance of those who had to apply them. Among the various contributions to the discussion that day the most original was one made by the hon. Member for Boston (Mr. Collins), who, on a Motion for referring the Bill to a Select Committee, proposed entirely to change its character. The object of that measure, and what Parliament and the public had been pressing upon the Government for years, was the abolition of exemptions from rateability. But the hon. Member for Boston desired that they should wholly turn their backs upon that principle and make that Bill positively one for the creation of new exemptions in favour of public institutions generally which had a tendency, morally or materially, indirectly to reduce the rates. He would remind the hon. Gentleman of an observation of Mr. Justice Mellor in a well-known case, to the effect that every such exemption from rates amounted to a forced contribution from all the other ratepayers of the district on behalf of the institution so exempted. Indeed, an hon. Member who spoke early in the debate told them that from a high authority in Manchester he had gathered that they strongly approved the principle of the exemption of useful local public institutions front rating, because, practically speaking, it was the only way of getting the general population to contribute towards them. According to that reasoning, they were practically to put a charge on the ratepayers of a locality in favour of these institutions, whether they approved them or not. The right hon.
  746
  Member for North Northamptonshire (Mr. Hunt) had on a former occasion treated the measure with scant courtesy, and characterized it as one which was not quite seriously intended by the Government. That imputation he had felt himself bound to repudiate. But in the present discussion the right hon. Gentleman took a totally different course. He had approved generally of the principle of the Bill, but proposed to refer it to a Select Committee because it was a mere outline which required filling in. The right hon. Gentleman and others urged that with regard to the new descriptions of property intended to be brought under rating he had failed to propound any scheme by which the assessment committees and the Courts might be guided in ascertaining their assessable value. Now what he had done in that respect was not done per incuriam, but designedly. The right hon. Member for Oxfordshire, (Mr. Henley) appeared to be under a strange illusion, and had spoken of flue impossibility of the assessment committees and the Courts of Law dealing with those questions unless Parliament laid clown the principles by which the rateable value was to be ascertained. But it was singular that it had not occurred to him that although property of different kinds had been assessed, valued, and rated since the days of Elizabeth, there was not on the Statute Book of this country a single enactment defining the methods by which their value should be ascertained in England. An Amendment had been placed on the Paper by the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. C. Read) in the sense of the Scotch Act in regard to woods and plantations. He had nothing to say against that Amendment if it met with the general concurrence of the House; but it did not call for a reference of the Bill to a Select Committee. He asked how they would be more ready to discuss the measure after it came down from such a Committee than before it went there? As to the right of shooting, he should be prepared to discuss the Amendments proposed on that subject, though he was ready, as at present advised, to defend the clause as it stood, holding that they could only calculate or guess the rent for which such a right would let; and that was the principle by which the assessment committees were guided generally

  747
  in ascertaining the value of all hereditaments. With regard to mines, that very question had been considered by a Committee of the House years ago, and that Committee failed to come to a conclusion on so extremely difficult a subject. His hon. Friend the Member for West Cornwall (Sir John St. Aubyn) and others of great practical knowledge had Amendments on the Paper with respect to the rating of mines, and there was no reason why those Amendments should not be discussed. It was possible his hon. Friend might show good reasons why his Amendment should be adopted; but he very much doubted whether, notwithstanding the knowledge on the subject of his hon. Friend the Member for South Durham (Mr. Pease) the House could address itself to the problem of laying down rules with respect to mines of all descriptions, such as were embodied in the proposals which now stood on the Notice Paper. The reason he had proposed to deal with the subject in the manner indicated by the Bill was because it involved great difficulties and complications, and that it was impossible to deal otherwise with it in a Bill which it was intended to pass during the present Session. He now came to the last part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hunt) who had been perfectly candid, for he had admitted that if the Bill were referred to a Select Committee it could not become law this year. To that admission he would refer those hon. Gentlemen who maintained that the Bill would not be lost if the Amendment were agreed to. The authority and experience of the right hon. Gentleman were against them, and it was clear that if they were successful the very difficult branch of the subject which they were discussing would be left to be dealt with in some Bill in a succeeding Session. He, for one, would not be responsible for any proceeding of that kind. He did not feel bound to propose a measure which would solve every possible problem connected with the subject of rating. We had since the days of Elizabeth gone on sufficiently contented with the rating of mines of a certain character without particularizing the mode of assessment, and it was, he thought, going too far to tell the House in the middle of the month of June, when it desired to make some progress in dealing with a great question of which the present Bill touched only the fringe, that it
  748
  should not proceed further unless it entered into a branch of the subject which would make legislation impossible in the present and doubtful in a future Session. He was aware that there was some dissatisfaction in the House as to the method which the Government had deemed it their duty to adopt in dealing with the subject of local administration and taxation; but it was rather too late to dispute the policy on which they acted, seeing that the House had almost unanimously passed the Budget, and that there were no funds out of which contributions could be made in aid of the local rates. Was the House prepared, under these circumstances, to say that it would not permit the Government to do what they could in the matter? They had honestly and explicitly declared it to be their intention to deal with the question as a whole; and was it anything more than simple justice that they should be allowed to take the first step in that direction? If they were permitted to do so they would be doubling their obligation to meet the views of the hon. Member for South Devon (Sir Massey Lopes), who, if the present Bill passed, might be more than ever certain that a subject in which he took such an interest would in a future Session be taken up by the Government. There was only one other point to which he wished to refer. His hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Craufurd) had called attention to the fact that Scotland and Ireland were excluded from the Bill, referring especially to the clauses which it contained concerning the rating of Government property. Now, if the views which he had laid before the House as to the rating of Government property should be accepted, there would be no objection to extending those clauses to Scotland and Ireland. In conclusion, he earnestly entreated the House to accept the assurances the Government had given on this subject, and allow the Bill to go into Committee.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, he was surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that there was no principle laid down in any Act of Parliament as to the mode in which the value of property liable to rates could be ascertained. Now, he could not at that moment lay his hand upon the statute, but he had before him a well-known work, Archbold's Poor Law, in which he found

  749
  the principle laid down that property was to be rated at a sum equal to the rent at which it might reasonably be expected to be let from year to year, the rates and taxes to which it was subject being first deducted. That being the principle laid down by statute, the right hon. Gentleman was now going to adopt an entirely different principle with regard to Government property and houses also, and the arguments of those who urged that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee were, therefore, perfectly reasonable. What was a person to do, he should like to know, who took from year to year growing timber, which for 15 years might be absolutely worthless? It was impossible that he could make any profit by it, and when the right hon. Gentleman proposed a certain mode of dealing with Government property which could not be applied to the case of timber, he must not be surprised if he were asked, as he had laid down a principle in one case, that he should do it also in others.
  MR. STANSFELDsaid, perhaps he had not expressed himself with sufficient distinctness. What he intended to say was, that there was on the Statute Book no enactment defining, as it had been proposed the Government should define, the method and principle by which special classes of property should be valued by assessment committees. The general principle, which had operated since the reign of Elizabeth, was that the gross annual value should be ascertained with reference to the rent the property would fetch, and that principle would be applicable to new as well as old properties.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 211; Noes 181: Majority 30.
  Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  On Question, "That the Preamble be postponed,"
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach.)
  MR. STANSFELDsaid, he would be willing to report Progress after the first
  750
  two clauses, to which there was no opposition, were passed.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, he thought that the 2nd clause raised the question of the application of the measure to Ireland, and he must, therefore, persist in his objection to going on with the Bill.
  MR. STANSFELDsaid, he would propose an addition to the clause which would probably meet the objection of the hon. Baronet. The clause was—"This Act shall not apply to Scotland or Ireland," and he proposed to add the words—"Except as is otherwise expressly provided by this Act."
  MR. W. H. SMITHurged that the President of the Local Government Board should put on the Paper his Amendments on the 7th clause.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he hoped that, before the right hon. Gentleman took the next step in this matter, lie would make some statement with reference to the charge which the abolition of the exemption of Government property would throw upon the annual Estimates.
  MR. M'LARENsaid, he had originally objected to Clause 2, because it did not make the Bill applicable to Scotland as far as the rating of Government property was concerned; but after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the Bill would be applied to Scotland to that extent, he Was perfectly satisfied.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 151; Noes 176: Majority 25.
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2 (Extent of Act).
  MR. STANSFELDproposed to introduce words to the effect that the Bill should not apply to Scotland or Ireland "except as is otherwise expressly provided by this Act."
  MR. COLLINSsaid, he believed there was a serious objection to the clause, and as it was impossible to discuss it in the few minutes that remained, he moved that Progress be reported.
  MR. PELLsupported the Motion, observing that a great number of Members had left the House.
  MR. STANSFELDassented to the Motion.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Friday, at Two of the clock.
  And it being now twenty minutes to Seven of the Clock, the House suspended its Sitting.
  House resumed its Sitting at Nine of the Clock.

NAVY (PROMOTION AND RETIREMENT).

  MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  SIR JOHN HAY,in rising to move—
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the present system of Promotion and Retirement in the Royal Navy, and to report their opinion thereon to this House,"
  said: Mr. Speaker—Sir, the formal Motion which I am about to introduce to the notice of the House is framed in the same words as the Motion which was made in this House ten years ago by Lord Palmerston. On that occasion I had brought before the House the then position of the Navy with regard to promotion and retirement. It appeared to me, at that time, Sir, that the service was suffering from stagnation of promotion and from the want of arrangement which then existed. It is now 10 years since that subject was inquired into. It was in the year 1863 that I had the honour of submitting this subject to the House, and Lord Palmerston made the proposal that a Select Committee should be appointed by the House to consider the system of promotion and retirement in the Royal Navy, and report thereon to this House. That proposal was adopted. My right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Spencer Walpole) was the Chairman of the Committee, and presided over its deliberations with great advantage. The hon. Member for the Montgomery Burghs (Mr. Hanbury-Tracy) has also a Motion of a similar kind before the House, and had intended to take an opportunity of calling the attention of this House to the subject, and of moving for a Select Committee to inquire into the condition of the Navy, with regard to promotion and retirement, and with a view of settling an equitable plan of retirement in the Navy. The Committee of 1863 produced a Report which no doubt many Members of this House have read, and which made various suggestions for the improvement of the position of the officers of the Navy. That Report was in some degree acted upon by the Duke of Somerset in the year
  752
  1866, and the advantages of the arrangement which was then made were manifest and were bearing good fruits during the six or seven years which succeeded the Report of the Committee. In 1863, as I have said, I had an opportunity of introducing this subject to the House, and was assisted in the view which I put forward by the opinions of naval officers who had considered the subject, and of the Rev. Mr. Harvey, whose name will long be remembered in connection with this subject. They had taken a great deal of evidence upon the subject, and that formed the basis of the recommendations which were laid upon the Table of this House, and also the basis of the inquiry which then followed. At present, however, the Navy is—I will not say suffering from—but is under the influence of a different scheme of retirement. In the year 1870, with very considerable liberality, a large grant of money was given by this House to the Admiralty for the advantage of retired officers of the Navy. The object of that grant was to induce officers to retire from the Navy, and in so doing to diminish the number of officers who were on the active list. There is a great deal to be said in favour of the proposal. The arrangement was one which was intended to reduce the active list so as to give more constant employment to those who remained upon it. And it was intended to reduce the active list of officers to 1,000 in the superior grades; that is to say, there were to be 50 flag officers, 150 captains, 200 commanders, and 600 lieutenants. But at that time there were on the active list 80 flag officers, 288 captains, 402 commanders, and 769 lieutenants, thus leaving a surplus of 30 flag officers, 138 captains, 202 commanders, and 169 lieutenants, at the time that proposal of retirement was introduced by Order in Council of the Navy. After the Order in Council had been three years in operation—in March, 1873—there were on the active list 59 flag officers, 226 captains, 306 commanders, and 703 lieutenants; still leaving a surplus of 9 flag officers, 76 captains, 106 commanders, and 103 lieutenants; the net result being a reduction of 21 flag officers, 62 captains, 96 commanders, and 63 lieutenants in that period. Now, it may be asked, why I should select a period of three years as the time at which to call the attention of this House to

  753
  this subject. I wish to do so because at the time that this measure was introduced to the notice of this House, we were promised by the Minister who then had the honour of submitting it and carrying it, that at the end of three years from that time all the good results which were to be expected from it would have followed from this measure. I will quote the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Childers), who was at that time First Lord of the Admiralty. He said—
  "The House may wish to know what will be the future financial effect of these changes. In the first year there will be an addition of £54,111. In the second year the amount of increase will be reduced to £42,499. It may be assumed that all the compulsory retirements will be in the first year and two-thirds of the optional retirements; in the second year there will be half of the remaining third of the optional retirements and half of the further reduction to bring down the number to those proposed. In the thud year, the numbers being fully reduced, the increase of charge will be diminished to £30,886. In the fourth year, instead of an increase of expense, there will be a saving of £7,552. In the fifth year there will be a saving of £45,990. A steady saving will then go on for 20 or 25 years, until all the lists will be in what may be called their normal condition."—[3 Hansard, cxcix. 937.]
  Upon that I am bound to call attention to a Return (321, 1872), before this House, which shows that the diminution has been hardly anything. The charges, which were £1,755,336 in April, 1868, are now shown by a Return to be £1,754,041, which is little less. And since that, owing to certain changes, although there has been no further Return, I believe the Secretary to the Admiralty will acknowledge that the charge has rather increased than diminished. However, at any rate, it is apparent that there has not been the diminution which was anticipated, and the increased charge continues, as it, was supposed it would, by those who opposed the measure. The half pay, the reserve pay, and retired pay in 1868–9 was £700,166, and it is now £847,462. In 1870 it stood at the increased charge of £902,100, and therefore it has been reduced slightly from that great increase; but that sum included the special grant of £120,000. It was £723,000 in 1869–70; £782,000 in 1870–71, excepting £120,000 which was specially voted; and then the charge went on to £829,000 in 1871–2; £818,000 in
  754
  1872–3; and for 1873–4, £847,462. Therefore, so far as this House is concerned, the promise of a diminution of the public charge has proved to be fallacious. There was another object with which this proposal was introduced to the notice of the House. I quote from the pages of Hansard, February 28th, 1870. The then First Lord of the Admiralty said—
  "Our third object was to render the service contented. So long as we had a large number of officers unemployed, and while some of the questions I have mentioned were unsettled, no one can wonder at a certain uneasiness and want of contentment in parts of the service. We believe, however, that the proposals I have made to-night ought to remove these feelings; and, if that prove so, we shall have succeeded in our third object. Efficiency, economy, and contentment are, then, the main bases of our naval policy."—[Ibid. 938.]
  I am quite sure the House and the country and the Government desire efficiency, economy, and contentment in the Navy, and all I venture to ask the House to grant a Committee for is, because I do not believe that either efficiency, or economy, or contentment have been obtained by that scheme of retirement and promotion introduced in the year 1870, or that it is likely to lead to those most valuable qualities in those who have had the honour to serve the Queen. I understood that under that retirement scheme the measure of efficiency was principally to be the age of the officers who were employed. My right hon. Friend the Member for Droitwich (Sir John Pakington) 15 years ago proposed that officers at the age of 70, of whatever rank, should be retired. That appeared to him to be an age at which no more services could be required from gentlemen serving in the Navy, and that it would be fair to create a flow of promotion by removing them from the list and promoting other persons into their places. That is a very different plan, so far as the Navy is concerned, from the plan by which persons are forced off the list at a certain age and other persons are not promoted to take their places. I myself had proposed in 1852 a plan of retirement. To quote the words I used at that time, I proposed that "the services of men of energy, of great practical experience, inured to war, should be retained whatever their ago might be." That is another plan of retirement; and it was not until the

  755
  Committee sat, over which my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University so well presided, that I became aware how difficult it was—that is now many years ago, and I had not then so much experience as I have at the present time—for men in high office to make a selection of those whom they might think had the energy and ability which, according to my view, would have retained their services in the Navy. I am therefore willing, so far as I am myself concerned, to acknowledge that I was mistaken in that proposal.
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present—
  SIR JOHN HAYproceeded: I was remarking, Sir, that the various plans of retirement which had hitherto been offered for the acceptance of this House had contained various elements which might have been more palatable to those who were affected by them. But before the Committee which I have alluded to, presided over by the right hon. Member for Cambridge University, we had a very singular piece of evidence of the extreme distaste of these proposals of retirement to the officers of the Navy. One of the most distinguished Admirals of the Navy—I allude to the late Lord Dundonald—was one of those who were about to be affected by one of these schemes of retirement. It was given in evidence by Sir George Seymour that Lord Dundonald's expression of distaste for the proposal was couched in these words—"I have no wish to be driven into the knacker's yard." Now, although that is not by any means a satisfactory place into which to drive officers, yet it is the place to which large numbers have been driven by the arrangement of 1870. I do not propose to-night, in asking for this Committee, to go into any question as to all the officers of the Navy. I merely desire to place before the House the condition of the combatant officers, for the rest will follow and will be naturally inquired into by any Committee which it might be the desire of this House to appoint. Now, with regard to the combatant officers of the Navy, the crucial test, as I understand it to exist at present, is the test of age accompanied by service at sea. The object of the proposal was a very valuable and excellent one if it had been
  756
  attained. The object of the proposal of 1870 was to quicken promotion in the Navy and give us younger officers. If, however, it had succeeded in giving us younger officers, I, for one, should have been perfectly satisfied with the scheme as proposed; but I wish to call the attention of the House to some figures bearing on this proposal. Of the various classes of officers on the flag list in the year 1870 the aggregate ages of the 3 Admirals of the Fleet were 246 years; in 1873, or rather at the present time, they are 252 years. In the year 1870 the aggregate ages of the 13 Admirals—the youngest 13 Admirals on the list of full Admirals—was 844, and it is now 860, or 16 years older. In 1870 the 15 youngest Vice Admirals were 880, and now they are 895, or 15 years older. The 25 youngest Rear Admirals were at that time 1,291, but they are now 1,365 years; so that in every one of the cases in which flag officers of the Navy are concerned, the age of the active officers has been increased.
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,
  SIR JOHN HAY,resuming, said: I am extremely sorry for my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty if he is unable to catch the thread of the argument I have endeavoured to adduce, but it has been so frequently broken that I must ask the House to excuse me if I, perhaps, go over a little of the ground I have already trodden. I was endeavouring to point out to the House that the ages of the officers in the upper ranks of the Navy had considerably increased under the recent arrangement. I will not recapitulate the ages which I have already given, and which I daresay the hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do; but I will proceed to say that in 1870 there were 5 officers on the flag list under 50 years of age, and there are now a smaller number—namely, 4—under 50. Comparing the ages of individual officers with the aggregate ages I have adduced to the House, it will be shown that they also have considerably increased. There are now 31 under 50 and 60; 17 between 60 and 70; 4 over 80 years of age, still upon the flag list. It therefore seems that the object of the retirement scheme for which the House paid so hand-

  757
  somely has not been achieved; and I must say that although the liberality of the House at that time to the Navy, so far as regards retired officers, was considerable, the House must not be under the impression that the Navy generally benefited by that liberality. I would like here to point out that it was, of course, desired by this House and supposed that those who were the most inefficient were those who were rejected from the list, and those retained were supposed to be the most efficient and the most fit for service. Those on the half pay list and the active list have received no important increase of pay whatever; and, indeed, on the half pay, none whatever. There were certain distributions of pensions which might give a slight increase to certain officers and deprive others of them; but the half pay has not been increased, as a matter of fact, nor has the active pay of the Navy been increased. This large sum of money was given to the retired list of officers, who are officers who have been rejected from the Navy, and are no longer competent to serve the Crown in any naval capacity. It is difficult to express it exactly; but they are paid largely by the country for not allowing themselves to be employed, which is about the worst object to which public money could well be applied. In addition to the increase of the aggregate age of the officers which I have already alluded to, the slowness of promotion now has become a very great disadvantage to the profession. Of all things that you ought to keep before the eyes of those who are serving you in the profession of arms, is the prospect they have, if they distinguish themselves, of rapid promotion—that for b distinguished services they are sure to be promoted. Now, the fact is at this moment that the Navy is labouring under the impression that it has become almost a seniority service, that there are no young officers comparatively being advanced to the ranks above them; and you are arriving at this stage—that you will retain officers on the list of captains until they are 54 years of age, and yet under the new retirement scheme as Rear Admirals they will be obliged to retire at 55. The result is that they are retired before they have an opportunity of serving in that capacity, and the country has a heavy charge to pay them on their retire-
  758
  ment as flag officers, for which they never do the country any service whatever. It will be the year 1880, or seven years hence, before the Admirals' list is reduced to the established number. Now, I make that assertion upon what I hope the House will consider sufficiently good evidence. The hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Admiralty will know very well the name of Mr. William Hickman. He is an officer whom the Admiralty has constantly employed for statistical Returns, and he has been so kind, without taking any particular view of the matter, as to make all these calculations for me, he having been in possession, of the ages of every officer on the list, and having made these calculations on a fair basis of life assurance calculations. Now, I will take the list of Admirals. There are 3 Admirals of the Fleet at this moment, and 13 Admirals on the active list on the 20th of March, 1873. To 4 of these officers the retirement scheme does not apply, and of the remaining 12, 8 elected to remain on the system in force in 1866, which enables them to continue on the active list until they attain the age of 70. They are Sir Henry Codrington, who will retire in 1879; Sir George Mundy, who will retire in 1875; Sir Henry Koppel, in 1880; Sir James Hope, in 1878; Sir Alexander Milne, in 1877; Admiral Richard Warren, in 1880; Sir Sidney Dacres, in 1874; and Sir Augustus Kuper, in 1879. These are the officers who are not subject to the retirement scheme of 1870. The 4 Admirals subject to the Order in Council of 1870, will retire in the following order on attaining the age of 65—namely, Lord Clarence Paget, in 1877; Admiral George Elliot, in 1879; Sir Thomas Symonds, in 1877; and the Hon. Charles Elliot, in 1884. I will not go over all the list, but I wish to show the House and the Secretary to the Admiralty, that I have gone carefully into these matters, and to place before them the fact that these calculations are based upon accurate statistics. So far, then, as retirements are concerned, there will be from the Admirals list, 1 in 1874, 1 in 1875, 3 in. 1877, 1 in 1878, 3 in 1879, 2 in 1880, and 1 in 1884. There are certain contingencies provided for in regard to death vacancies; but with regard to voluntary retirement, from the foregoing

  759
  statement it is evident that it will be 1880 before the Admirals list is reduced to 7. I will not go through all the lists, but I will now come to the captains' list, which depends upon the condition of the flag list. There will be in the year 1876, for promotion, 4; in 1875, 3; in 1873, 2; in 1877, 3; in 1878, 4; and in 1879, 4 promotions. I have here the officers who are likely to retire. The ages have been fairly calculated, and this will show that the captains' list will not be reduced to the number it was intended to be reduced to until the year 1892, which is a time we need hardly look forward to in any calculation of this kind. Now there are 226 captains, and they are to be reduced to 150. Until they are so reduced, only one promotion for every two retirements is to be made. Therefore it is that I complain that the flow of promotion will be stopped for many years to come. I think, so far as this calculation can be accurate, it will be 1896, if the present arrangements continue, before the promotion of one in each vacancy will be allowed to take place. To further confirm what I have said, I may state that the Order in Council of 1870 puts the establishment of superior executive officers of the Navy at 1,000–50 flag officers, 150 captains, 200 commanders, and 600 lieutenants. The Order in Council has been three years in operation, and, remember, I have quoted the words of the First Lord of the Admiralty at that time, who said that at the end of three years—that is, in March this year—it would be in full operation, and would have done whatever it was expected to do. There are still in March, 1873, 59 flag officers, 226 captains, 306 commanders, and 703 lieutenants; leaving a surplus of 9 flag officers, 76 captains, 106 commanders, and 103 lieutenants; the net result in this time being a reduction of 21 flag officers, 62 captains, 96 commanders, and 63 lieutenants. It may be naturally said—"If you have reduced so many in the course of this time, why not go on a year or two longer, giving the scheme a fair trial?" I should be quite willing to do so if I did not see that it was impossible such a trial could lead to a good result. These are the figures of that accurate and careful statistician, Mr. Hickman, who has authorized me to use his name. "But still," it may be said, "if, in the
  760
  course of three years, you have reduced your surplus officers from 539 to 294, why not wait and see whether the natural action of this arrangement will not complete that which was intended to be completed?" But in 1870 you shelved a number of officers, who either could not or would not serve. By compulsory removal, the propriety of which was questioned at the time, you shelved them. Let us follow the course of events as they have happened in the years which have elapsed since 1870. In the year 1870, there were 70 captains retired, 75 commanders, and 912 lieutenants; in 1871, 24 captains, 28 commanders, and 39 lieutenants; in 1872, 16 captains, 13 commanders, and 42 lieutenants; and this year, so far as it has gone, only 2 captains have retired, 5 commanders, and 9 lieutenants. Now, that shows that the operation of the retirement scheme was exhausted at first; that its influence, however good, was the result of the very liberal vote of £120,000 which attracted a certain number of officers off the lists; and that having exhausted that particular attraction, it could no longer induce officers to give up a profession to which they had devoted their lives. Up to the year 1883, or 10 years hence, the promotion, as calculated on the captains' list, of Rear Admirals will be 43, and at that time the fifty-seventh captain on the list of captains will have been reached by the promotion. That officer will be 54 years of age. I have the figures here and the name, but I need not mention it. Within a year after that he will be obliged to retire as a Rear Admiral. He will, therefore, be only one year upon the Rear Admirals' list, having previously served with considerable distinction; but he will be then shelved and become of no further use. It is probable that there will be only three officers, if they all serve—Captains Lambert, Hewitt, and Sir Malcolm Macgregor—who will reach the flag list under 50 years of age. Captain Hewitt will probably have served his time, but Sir Malcolm Macgregor is not serving, and may not be one of those who obtain promotion. Captain Hewitt will be 49 years of age, and he and Captain Lambert will in all probability be the only officers within the next 10 years who will obtain the rank of Rear Admiral under 50 years of age. There

  761
  will not be more than 12 commanders promoted in each year up to 1883. Now, I think that is a serious matter. A number of senior officers of ships now exist, and it is a very awkward matter if the Government contemplate that only 12 commanders, who hold such responsible positions, will be promoted out of a considerable number. They must know that in consequence of the check of promotion only one person will be promoted out of two vacancies—and rather less from certain changes which have been made; and these officers will have to go on serving without prospect of promotion during the next 10 years if the present system continues. And at that time—1883—the captains' list will be only reduced to 194, and will be still 44 above the number to which we were promised it would be reduced by this time. The right hon. Gentleman suggested 150 as the aggregate number which was to have been reached at this date. But the First Lord of the Admiralty has broken through that rule—as I think with great judgment—and I give him great credit for it. He has promoted a considerable number of officers very rightly and justly, but he has entirely broken through the arrangement which was to reduce the list, which has been increased by nearly 20. By the retirement scheme of 1870 the captains' list was reduced from 288 to 239; but since that time it has only been reduced by 13. But the captains' list has to be reduced to 150; so that for the next 10 years the Navy must look forward to an absence of anything like that right, and just, and reasonable promotion which men ever hope for in the public service. With regard to the commanders' list, there are now 306 commanders, and that number is to be reduced to 200. It was reduced by the proposal of 1870 from 402 to 339; but since that time the action of the retirement scheme has only been to reduce it by 33, which is a very slight way on the journey towards the reduction to 200 proposed. The lieutenants' list in March, 1870, numbered 769. It was reduced by retirement to 688; the intention originally being to reduce it to 600. But the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty very wisely intervened, and I thank him on behalf of the service for what he did in breaking through the rule. Still, the effect has been to increase the list to
  762
  729, or nearly up to the numbers at which it was at the time the House voted so liberally for the reduction of the list. It is evident that the numbers not having been reduced, there can be no diminution of charge such as was held out as a boon to the country in 1870. There has, in fact, been a slight increase of the public charge instead of the anticipated reduction. Now, there are certain points which may not seem to be of any great importance to the House, but which are of very great importance to the Navy, to which I desire to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman and his Colleagues. A new plan with regard to retirement of Admirals of the Fleet was introduced in 1870, which I conceive to have been a most improvident and improper arrangement. The rank of Admiral of the Fleet has no doubt since the time of Lord Howe been an honorary rank, but is equal to the rank of Field Marshal, and is much coveted by those who have risen to the rank of Admiral in the Navy. And I believe the proposal of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was extremely unjust to those officers in that particular. Let us see how unfairly it is working. It is quite true that at this moment there are three very distinguished officers who hold that high post, and I am sure that whoever may hereafter attain to it will be officers of distinction and deserving of that honour. But many of the officers who commanded-in-chief your Fleets by the action of this scheme are prevented from ever becoming Admirals of the Fleet. Although they may have looked forward to it from boyhood, and have risen to command your Fleet, they are deprived of that position by the red tape rule which says that at the age of 68 or 65, according as they accept the new or old scheme, they are to go off the list of Admirals. The result is that such men as Sir William Martin, Lord Lauderdale, Sir Alexander Milne, and Sir Frederick Grey have been, or probably will be, deprived of this rank, not because there are better men—although, perhaps, equally good men may reach it before them—but because they may be pushed off the list of Admirals before their turn comes, and another man who is a day under the age may have arrived at the top of the list. The result will be that three officers—excellent officers, but who do not

  763
  happen to have commanded the Fleet at sea—will attain to this rank, while three officers who have been First Sea Lords, and five who have commanded Fleets at sea, will be placed on the retired list, and simply because of what I really must call this absurd rule, which will turn these men adrift into the "knacker's yard" when they happen to be 65 or 68 years of age. If there was any advantage to be gained by bringing a young officer of 35 or 40 to command the Fleet at sea; if there was some object in it, and this was not simply an honour, one could understand the arrangement. However, it seems that this seniority system is to continue when you come to the highest rank of all. I appeal to my hon. and gallant Friends in the Army as to what they would think of such a rule by which an officer who had arrived at a position where he could be selected to be a Field Marshal, should be forbidden to obtain it because he was 65 years of age. I believe if we looked at the list of Field Marshals we should find that—except the illustrious Duke, who has rendered great services in the field no doubt, which entitled him to that position, but whose high rank probably assisted him to obtain it—no general officer, with the exception again of the Duke of Wellington—[Sir PERCY HERBERT: And Lord Raglan.] — has attained that rank under the age of 70 years. An hon. and gallant Friend near me says that at this moment one of our most distinguished Field Marshals is 90. Yet distinguished officers in the Navy, like Sir William Martin, Lord Lauderdale and Sir Frederick Grey, are deprived of an analogous position because, forsooth, some arrangement has been come to by which at 65 or 68 years of age they must make way for another officer, who, having perhaps attained within a day of the age, gets this coveted distinction, while others are put aside without a chance of receiving it. There are some other points which I think should not be neglected, as I am alluding to this matter. The hard-and-fast line which was intended to be drawn may have been a fair one, but it was very disadvantageous to the country; and the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty has, I am glad to say, not adhered to it. I will allude to one or two cases in which he has thought it right to abstain from enforcing the rule
  764
  which had been laid down. The right hon. Gentleman has a most excellent Board of Naval advisers, and I believe he could not select better men than Sir Alexander Milne, Sir Walter Tarleton, and Admiral Seymour, to give him advice. In saying this, I have no wish to derogate from his ability, but in naval matters he must necessarily require advice, and these are excellent naval advisers. There is no officer more distinguished or more deserving of his confidence than Sir Walter Tarleton. He is one of the Lords of the Admiralty, and if I examine the list of Naval officers, I shall find that he is the only officer of Rear Admiral's rank who is 62. He ought, by the regulations, to have retired either at 60 or 55; but when the right hon. Gentleman did him the honour to request him to become one of his Naval advisers, he said—"I am quite willing; but at a given date I shall attain the age when I must be retired, and when that age arrives I must leave you. I do not think it right or proper that I, as an adviser of you who are to command our Fleets, should be here to advise you if I am incompetent to command a Fleet myself." The right hon. Gentleman accepted Sir Walter Tarleton's services on these conditions, and when Sir Walter Tarleton arrived at the age at which he must have retired he was retained upon the list. He was made five years younger by an Order in Council. [Mr. GOSCHEN: No, no!] At any rate some arrangement was made by which, at the age of 62, he was retained as a Rear Admiral. He remains—very fortunately for the service—to advise the right hon. Gentleman; but he obstructs the promotion of other officers on the captains' list, who in consequence of his remaining there, are not, and never will be, promoted to be Rear Admirals. I think the House will not be of opinion that Captain Vansittart, almost the senior captain, who will be within a month or two 55 years old, who has had more command of iron-clads and greater experience in iron ships than any man afloat, should be retired because Sir Walter Tarleton remains at the Admiralty. Had Sir Walter Tarleton retired, Captain Vansittart would have been Rear Admiral, and would have had five years to go on. I think the right hon. Gentleman very properly retained the services of Sir

  765
  Walter Tarleton; but, by so doing, he deprives the country of Captain Vansittart's services. I have happened to mention the officer who is close to the head of the list, but there are hundreds of other cases which I could fairly put forward. I will give another instance. I have not seen The Gazette yet; but I may refer to Rear Admiral Sherard Osborn as an officer well known in the country. He is Captain Sherard Osborn officially at this moment, but I understand that a vacancy has occurred by which he will become Rear Admiral. It is fortunate that his services have been retained for the country. But in reality Admiral Sherard Osborn, or, as he then was, Captain Sherard Osborn, was giving his very valuable services to a society of great importance. I believe him to be a gentleman most competent to give his services in that direction, and, in so doing, during peace to be of benefit to the country generally; and I do not think that in time of peace he could be better employed. But he would, have been retired by the plan of 1870, which required that an officer who had not been at sea for seven years must be retired and placed on the shelf. I should be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty would ask his Colleague, Sir Alexander Milne, to show him a letter which I had the honour of writing to Sir Alexander Milne in the summer of 1871, in the September just before Captain Osborn obtained his appointment. [Mr. GOSCHEN: Was it a private letter?] It was not of course a public letter; but it was not private so far as I am concerned in any sense, and I told Sir Alexander Milne that if he had no objection I should quote it on this occasion. But no doubt he will show the letter to the right hon. Gentleman if he should have preserved it. It does not bear upon this question except in the respect which I will now mention. I happened to be in Scotland when I was informed by an hon. Member of this House—who no doubt if he were here could corroborate what I have to say—that Captain Sherard Osborn had made arrangements which would save the country from being deprived of his services. He was to proceed to sea during the interval of autumn relaxation which he had from his employment, and hoist his pendant in an iron-clad for a short time, and by
  766
  so doing save himself from being retired, and save his services for the country. I agreed that they were extremely valuable, and I wrote to Sir Alexander Milne on the subject. I mention his name, because, being in office, he will no doubt be able to inform the right hon. Gentleman on this point. This was in September, some weeks before the appointment of Captain Sherard Osborn to the Hercules. I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman appointed him bonâ fide, with the full intention that he should continue to command the ship; but, singularly enough, certain circumstances made it necessary for him to resign at the end of six weeks or two months; and he again, like Sir Walter Tarleton, blocks the way to Captain Vansittart. [Mr. GOSCHEN: The hon. Baronet has not stated the substance of his letter.] I merely called attention to the letter—I have no copy of it—and I simply referred to the fact that I called Sir Alexander Milne's attention to Captain Osborn's probable employment a month before it occurred, and to the circumstances which did occur thereafter. That is to say, it was understood that Captain Sherard Osborn, during the relaxation he was about to have from certain public employment, was to take command—as we should go to the moors or fishing—for six weeks, and by employment at sea save himself, or rather save the country,
  front being deprived of his services. [Mr. GOSCHEN: That is, he was to have a colourable office?] I make no charge whatever. I quite understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that he appointed him bonâ fide. I only know that what has happened has been that Captain Sherard Osborn did take command, and at the end of six weeks or two months resigned, is now Rear Admiral, and so prevents the promotion of the next man. His presence there blocks the way to Captain Vansittart, who would have been the next man, and the country will lose the services of those other men by reason of this hard-and-fast and absurd rule, which ought to be broken through as soon as possible. I am not finding fault with Captain Sherard Osborn, who desired to remain in the service, or with the right hon. Gentleman for having done this.
  MR. GOSCHEN: For having done what?
  SIR JOHN HAY: For having appointed him to the Hercules; for having allowed him to resign; and for the fact that his service was over in six weeks.
  MR. GOSCHEN: It was not over in that time.
  SIR JOHN HAY: Oh, was it not? Well, then, it was seven weeks or two months. I thought it was six weeks. I will not be sure; but at any rate he commanded the Hercules for a short time, and came back to his duties in the City of London.
  Mr. GOSCHENwas about to make another observation, but was met by cries of "Order!"
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Baronet is in possession of the House, and unless the right hon. Gentleman desires to make an explanation he is not in Order.
  SIR JOHN HAY: I understood—I do not know—but I believe Captain Osborn held an appointment of considerable importance in the City of London, and that he went away for six weeks or more, and came back to the same employment. I may have been inaccurately informed, but if I am wrong I am quite ready to be corrected. But, as I have said, Sir Walter Tarleton and Rear Admiral Sherard Osborn have prevented the promotion of the two next captains on the list. I will now mention the case of Captain Ashmore Powell, who was appointed to make certain experiments with regard to ships in which the public were much interested, and whose qualities had been very much challenged. He was sent to sea with two ships, and then somebody at the Admiralty discovered before he made his report that he was 55 years of age; so he was shelved, and we did not get his report. He had been selected as the fittest man for the duty, and yet before he could put pen to paper he was sent away, and could make no report whatever. Take another case. I was looking through the list of Rear Admirals the other day. A knowledge of the Transport Service is of great value to this country in our amphibious wars, and there is hardly any person who has the same experience as Sir Leopold Heath, who was thanked by the House which preceded this—by your predecessor, Sir, for the services which he rendered in Abyssinia. He was Commander of the Fleet there, and had probably had more experience there in the Transport Service connected with a
  768
  considerable Army than any man going. He was young—although, perhaps, the House does not consider 55 young—and very active. I happened to look to see where he was, and I found he was retired. [Mr. GOSCHEN: Voluntarily.] So much the worse that the country allows him to retire voluntarily; the country should compel him to remain. Of what advantage is it to the country to give an option to a man like that to retire from the service? I do not want to weary the House with these cases, but I must mention one more. I am sorry to see that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Stirlingshire (Admiral Erskine) is not in his place. He had hoped to be here. The youngest captain on the list who is just about to be retired is the nephew of, and of the same name as the hon. Member for Stirling. He served under my command, and I know him to be a most excellent officer; but, unfortunately, the seniority system takes older men to be employed, and he is within a month or two of the time at which he will be retired. He is very little over 30 years of age, yet he will be put upon the shelf and have £300 a-year for life, unless my calling the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the case may enable him to obtain a command. He is a young man with a tolerable fortune, no wife, and all other advantages to enable him to serve his country with credit and distinction; but unless he gets a ship within a month or two, the country will be charged with £300 for his life-time, and he may go where he likes. Surely that is not for the advantage of the country? There are other cases of the same character, but I do not wish to tax the indulgence of the House, and I have taken him because he is the youngest, and a relative of the hon. Member for Stirling, who I was in hopes would have been here to confirm my statement, and who entirely concurs in the objects of my Motion. Now, I am not going to attempt to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman what he should do. One thing is quite evident. If he looks over the Report of the Committee of 1863, over which the right hon. Member for Cambridge University presided with so much ability, he will find that all the suggestions made there were more practical and more valuable than the plan of retirement under which the Navy at present suffers. But there is

  769
  this to be said—that it cannot go on. One of the great evils has been the entry of a large number of young officers. I have always thought so and said so. You must limit your entries, for although they are very valuable officers, yet if you are to have 600 lieutenants you must not enter any one for three years, and after that you must limit your entries to 45 or 47 a-year. It will be said, and very properly said—"How is the work of the junior officers of the Navy to be performed if you limit the entries so largely?" I know many of my naval friends differ from me in that which I have advocated before, which is that you must do this—You must promote your youngest and best-conducted seamen to a class of warrant officers, and employ them for certain duties connected with the boats, tops, decks, and quarters, which anyone who has been at sea will understand, and which they are capable of performing. Before that Committee, of which I have already spoken, one of the most distinguished officers of the Navy—the late Sir George Seymour—was examined, and it will be seen that his evidence bears me out in this statement as to the employment of warrant officers. You cannot hope to improve the list of officers if you swamp them by numbers. With 45 entries, and by retirement from the lieutenants' list of 25 or 30 lieutenants a-year, you would require no retirement from the other lists of the Navy. What you ought to have is a much larger number of warrant officers, which would give a great inducement for good conduct among the seamen of the Fleet; and you ought also to retire officers from the list of lieutenants before they attain the age at which they would become commanders—those who are superfluous, and who are not to be promoted to the higher ranks of commander or Admiral. It may be asked—"What are you to do with these lieutenants?" Well, the question certainly is a difficult one. I may, perhaps, anticipate to some little extent what will fall from the hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Brassey), who I see is about to move an Amendment to my own Motion for a Committee. I believe I may presume to say that it is not a hostile Amendment. I would venture to suggest that the lieutenants so retired should be employed as lieutenants in the Naval Reserve, and that con-
  770
  siderable inducement would be held out to the mail contract companies, and all the other shipowners of this country, to employ them to command their ships. They would be the fittest men for that purpose; and, assuming that the commanders of those vessels receive, say, £800, they having £150 or £200 from the Crown as a retaining fee or retired pay, would be able to give their services for a smaller sum to the great shipowners, who would be, as I believe, ready to employ them. The advantage of that would be that we should have competent and skilful officers to train our Naval Reserve, and they would be available, in the event of war, to command those very ships which it would be necessary to man or commission for the purpose of destroying an enemy's commerce. The arrangements with the contract steamers formerly—I do not know whether they do so now—contemplated the employment of those vessels in war, and they were obliged to have certain means to enable them to mount guns in case of necessity. What could be more advantageous for the country than that on the outbreak of war those admirable vessels should be filled with men of the Naval Reserve—which I have always supported the right hon. Gentleman in obtaining money to pay—and commanded by lieutenants in the Navy, with the rank of commander if you like, who being so employed in war would, by gaining distinction in their special branch of the profession, I hope have an opportunity of rising to a higher rank? Various interruptions have, unfortunately, marred my attempt to introduce this proposal to the House; but I trust that the right hon. Gentleman may have gathered what it is that I desire to offer to his consideration. I believe it is very desirable that a Committee should be appointed to inquire into these matters. I am quite sure that neither efficiency, economy, nor contentment are at present the rule with regard to promotion and retirement in the Navy, and I am also sure that the large sum given by this House in 1870 has not had its desired effect. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Childers), who was not here at the beginning when I quoted the statistics supplied by Mr. Hickman, will see that the system—in-

  771
  stead of being as he hoped it would be at the end of three years—is in a state of considerable confusion; and that there is no prospect under the continuance of the present system, without larger infractions of the Order in Council than have been so judiciously made by the present First Lord, of any restoration of that efficiency, contentment, and economy for which he looked. The hon. and gallant Baronet concluded by moving for the Select Committee.
  MR. HANBURY-TRACY: Sir, I rise to second the Motion of my hon. and gallant Friend, but I do so for reasons which differ very essentially from those he has expressed. He has moved for the appointment of the Committee because he believes the retirement scheme of 1870 was founded in error, and could not possibly be made to work well. He (Sir John Hay) never was a friend to that plan and I fear he never will be. I, on the contrary—believing that the retirement scheme of 1870 only requires expansion and to be carried out in its entirety to be a great success—wish that a Committee may be granted in order that it may receive that development which is essential to its well working. That retirement was carried by my right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract, when he was First Lord of the Admiralty, in the face of great opposition, but it had been designed with the greatest care, and it had been elaborated by the right hon. Gentleman with a full knowledge of the complicated state of the lists. I know it was honestly intended to put an end to a chronic state of grumbling, to stop that continued, almost annual meddling with the retirement lists, which had brought about such a mass of different schemes that the Navy List had at last obtained a retirement for any letter in the Alphabet, which required a lifetime to understand. In my humble capacity, I have always, inside this House and out of it, supported that plan, and I have always thought that my right hon. Friend was the only First Lord who ever had the courage to deal with it as a whole, and in a comprehensive spirit, for the good of the entire service. His main principle was to decide what the numbers on the active list ought to be, not only in reference to the peace establishment, but also for the requirements of war, and once having settled
  772
  that, then to reduce the number to that point, keeping the officers—although, perhaps, somewhat smaller in point of numbers—yet thoroughly efficient. He saw that the great fault of our system had always been having quantity, not quality; the maintenance of an enormous number of officers, which you were totally unable to give employment to, and the large body of whom were therefore rendered inefficient and discontented. In carrying out the details my right hon. Friend endeavoured to avoid, as far as possible, giving cause of complaint, and, by large and liberal retirements, he hoped to clear the lists, and reduce the number of active officers to the point he had determined on. Unfortunately, Sir, my right hon. Friend became ill and was obliged to quit office at the critical moment when he of all men was absolutely necessary at the head of that Department in order to see the scheme carried out in its entirety, to expand and adapt the details as circumstances might arise. Nothing could have been more untimely, nothing could have been so prejudicial to the good working of such a delicate piece of administrative machinery than the loss at that moment of the fountain-head and author of the scheme to guide-and direct. Although my right hon. Friend offered considerable inducements in order to clear the lists, it was, I think, thoroughly understood by the House, that if they wore not sufficient to bring about that desired end, he was determined after the experiment had been fairly tried to take such further steps as might be necessary. Of this I am quite certain that the fundamental key-stone of his plan rested on the lists being brought down, and all the vast improvements which he fondly predicted to flow from his scheme were based on having a small but thoroughly efficient body of officers, in the place of an enormous unworkable number and inefficient so-called active lists. It is melancholy after the great and confident expectations raised in 1870, of reduced lists, of constant employment, bringing with them an even flow of promotion, and officers in a high state of efficiency, to look at the present Navy List, and to compare it with that of 1870. Three years have passed away, and yet what do we find. A block in all the lists; great want of employment; many of the very best officers remaining on half-pay

  773
  for years and years in a state of perpetual despair, obliged to live on a miserable pittance which hardly keeps them from starving, and with little prospect of obtaining employment until years of idleness have passed by, until by the natural course of events they must be far less efficient, far less zealous, and far less able to take command of our vessels. My belief is that had my right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract remained at the head of the Admiralty means would have been found long ago to have reduced the lists, and that this state of things would not have occurred. In saying this, I have no wish for one moment to say a single word which could be thought disrespectful or uncourteous to my right hon. Friend now at the head of the Admiralty. He has had in a very brief time to master all the difficult technicalities of the service, not only of the matériel, but also of the personnel, and it is not surprising that he should not at once have seen the urgent necessity of bringing the lists down to the point determined on in 1870. The remedy is very simple. There is only one way of effecting it, and that is by going boldly into the field and giving such ample and liberal retirement or such other appointments as will, in the shape of a pecuniary bribe or employment, induce the requisite number to leave the active lists. I know of no intermediate course which can be adopted with justice to the officers. What is now the present state of the lists as compared with what you said was essential in 1870? You laid down that with due regard to the necessities of war the number required of active officers should be—flag officers 50, captains 150, commanders 200, lieutenants 600. The First Lord of the Admiralty in introducing his scheme stated that he had arrived at these figures after the most careful investigation. Now, Sir, I am aware that there are some officers who think that these numbers are too small, but I think it is unnecessary to argue that point. I start on the general assumption that these numbers have been accepted as sufficient, and that these officers, especially the captains and commanders, if kept thoroughly efficient, would be ample for every emergency. I desire to argue on the premise on which the retirement scheme was based. In 1871, after the scheme had been in operation one, year
  774
  you had 10 flag officers over the complement—82 captains and 125 commanders. In May, 1873, you have certainly got the flag list to within 6, but you have 76 captains over the list, and 106 commanders. Practically speaking, it may, I think, be fairly stated that, although some lists are brought down in these important branches, no progress whatever has been made. As a necessary consequence of this you are obliged to retain enormous numbers unemployed. At the present moment I find you have 138 captains and 147 commanders on half-pay, all anxious and desirous for service, rusting ashore, and in very few cases doing anything to retain their efficiency. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), in 1870, in describing the small number of officers employed, stated—
  "we would propose a plan of promotion and retirement which would, so far as we could judge, get rid of that terrible blot upon our Navy, the redundancy and unsatisfactory employment of our officers. …. the system of keeping up an excessive number of unemployed officers is open to three objections. In the first place, it is very uneconomical; in the next place, it is very mischievous, by creating discontent among the officers who are constantly on half-pay, and by causing continual agitation for increased pay; and, thirdly, it produces great inefficiency, because in these days if an officer is on shore for a long time he gets behindhand with the improvements that are always going on."—[3 Hansard, cxcix. 930–31.]
  Well, Sir, in 1873, three years after this statement was made, I find that whereas in 1870 you had 109 captains promoted within five years, and only 10 officers serving, in 1873 you have had 91 promoted during five years, and only five employed; and whereas in 1870 you had then 123 commanders who had been promoted during three years, and only 23 serving, you had, in 1873, 88 commanders who had been promoted during three years, and only 29 serving. Notwithstanding you succeeded in 1870, during the first year, in reducing the list of your captains and commanders, it was far more nominal than real. What you did was this—You at once cleared off the dead weight; you swept off those who, having long given up all intention of serving afloat, were delighted to go into retirement—amongst them many men who had not been afloat for years, and had not sought employment, and to this extent a great benefit was effected. But the main difficulty

  775
  in reducing the active list was not in dealing with this description of officer, because it was well known that, to all intents, they had long and practically given up the service as their profession. The main point was to know what to do with the next stratum, having weeded out all the dead weight, how to get rid, for the benefit of the service, of a certain portion of the young and active, and here the Navy has deeply felt the loss of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract. Let us take the list of captains and commanders as being the two which are the most important. To the most uninitiated it was self-evident, in 1871, that some further step must be taken as a temporary measure. You had arrived at the point where you found you had to deal with a list full of officers, anxious to serve—men who had served their country in distant climes with zeal and intelligence, who had a vested interest in employment and promotion. If for the good of the service it was found, from the altered state of the profession, absolutely necessary to reduce the list still further, it was essential that it should be done with the greatest care, with the most scrupulous justice, that the feelings of those officers, who were to be asked to give up their profession, should have been consulted, and that no steps should be taken which were not dictated with the utmost liberality. In April, 1871, you found yourself with 233 captains and with 312 commanders, most of them being in the prime of life, and the élite of your service; of these you were bound to get rid of 83 captains and 112 commanders in order to carry out the policy of 1870, and to enable the retirement scheme to have a fair chance of getting into working order. Well, Sir, there were two courses open by which this could be effected—one, I may be allowed to term a policy of justice and the other a policy of injustice. A policy of justice would have brought with it contentment and an instantaneous remedy. You could have gone to a certain number of those officers, and said—"We are sorry to blight your prospects of advancement in the profession, but it is impossible to find employment for so many, and it is imperative to reduce the list, therefore we are prepared to make ample compensation. We will give a bonus of so many years sea service, and a step in rank, or so
  776
  much money down to buy you out, provided a given number will elect to take it." The cost of this would have been a mere flea bite compared with the benefits which the country would at once have secured from the extra state of efficiency the remaining officers would soon have attained to. Then, again, it would have been quite possible to have reduced the cost by giving appointments in connection with your Naval Reserves, or employment under the Board of Trade. Surely, Sir, 100 or 150 naval captains and commanders in the prime of life would have been the very best material to have made available for these purposes. It would, I undertake to say, have required a very small amount of administrative ability to have found positions for which these officers were so eminently fitted to fill. Instead of this, up to this moment the very opposite policy has been adopted, which I, with all deference, cannot help calling a policy of injustice—one which is as unjust as it is niggardly and hurtful to the service. I must say that I think the Admiralty have been very much to blame after the strong assertions made from the Treasury bench in 1870, to have allowed three years to elapse without taking some more active steps in a fair, generous, and liberal spirit to reduce the number. I do not attribute the blame to the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Admiralty individually, because until he had been at the head of affairs a considerable time it was impossible for him to be aware of the great importance of the subject; but I think there is no excuse for the Admiralty as a public administrative body. For the last two years they have endeavoured to starve a certain number of officers into submission by keeping them continually unemployed. I must recall to the remembrance of the House the fact that liberal as the scheme of 1870 undoubtedly was, it was based upon service, and that according to age and number of years employed the amount of retirement pension depended. After that Order in Council it became, therefore, of the most vital importance to obtain employment. My right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract also introduced a clause into that scheme that non-employment for five years as commander or seven years as captain would necessitate retirement. I remember very well that the sole inten-

  777
  tion of this was to prevent officers blocking the lists who did not care to serve, and I am confident that nothing so unfair ever entered into the mind of my right hon. Friend as to use this clause as a lever to clear the lists. Now, however, it is perfectly clear that before long it must operate to compulsorily retire large numbers of officers who are anxious to serve, and whose non-employment is in no way due to them. The effect of this is that the double hardship is perpetrated—you offer liberal retirements based on service, and then you force men into retirement without putting it into their power to obtain that service on which it is based. [Mr. GOSCHEN: We have not retired any one compulsorily, and do not intend to do so.] I am very glad my right hon. Friend has made that statement, and though I could point out two cases in which it has taken effect, I will not dispute the point further. One thing, however, is self-evident—namely, that as there are a large number of officers who have nearly run to the end of their five and seven years, some immediate steps must soon be taken to give employment, unless inducements are given to retire. The other day my right hon. Friend at the head of the Admiralty said that he feared no pecuniary inducement would even now effect a reduction of the list; but I can assure him that he is mistaken. During the last six weeks I have, in concert with several officers acting as a Naval Committee, been in communication with some 250 captains and commanders, and I therefore can speak with some authority on the matter. I am confident that it only requires a fair proposal to be offered by the Admiralty to induce the requisite number to quit the active list. Does the House realize what being condemned for a long term of years to half-pay means in the present day? It is a very different thing from what it used to be. Formerly, it was looked upon as a moderate but sufficient maintenance. No change has been made for 50 years, and what was plenty then is now almost starvation. Sir, the great evil in the constitution of our Naval Service—the great bane of the English Navy—is the system of condemning our officers for years and years to a miserable half-pay, with enforced idleness. My right hon. Friend stated this so clearly—especially as regards efficiency—that I cannot do bettor than quote his words—
  778
  "I wish to point out a still more injurious result arising from our having too large a number of officers, and I make this statement with a full sense of its importance, and on my responsibility I feel no hesitation in saying that it is injurious to the efficiency of the Navy. Communications which I have received within the last two months from Admirals and officers in command in all parts of the world convince me that though our Naval officers are as gallant men as are to be found in the world, and as willing to do their duty, yet there is want of efficiency among them, arising from want of employment. You cannot expect adequate experience from captains and commanders who are for two-thirds of their time on shore."
  These are the evils which it was intended to remove, and which I trust the House will insist shall not be allowed to remain. I find that it is still no uncommon thing—indeed, it is the usual custom—for captains to be appointed to vessels, who, if you reckon their time of service from the date they were promoted to commanders, have been 12, and sometimes 14 years, during which they have only been actually at sea three, four, or five years. Think of this, Sir, at a time when you have vessels worth £250,000. Would it be allowed in any private firm? Would it be tolerated by any foreign country? Can it be to the advantage of this great country to allow such a state of things to exist? In France and in America, if I understand their system rightly, no officer is obliged to be ashore more than two years, and even during that period he is attached to some port and to some committee, where he has the means and the opportunity of keeping up and improving his professional knowledge. We alone, who pride ourselves on being economical, condemn the system in 1870 as costly, extravagant, and inefficient, and yet allow the same state of things to flourish in 1873. I can imagine nothing more pitiable or more unenviable than the position at the present moment of many of our senior commanders. Most of these officers have, from long service, justly earned their promotion, and yet, year after year, they find themselves passed over by many of their juniors. They ask for employment, and cannot obtain it, and are forced to exist on a miserable amount of 8s. 6d. or 10 s. a-day until, at last, worn out in mind, and disgusted with the profession it was their pride to belong to, they find themselves starved into submission, and they retire. I know it was part of the

  779
  policy of my right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract to keep half-pay low, with the view of making officers anxious for employment, but it was his fundamental object that there should be employment for all who desired it. Picture to yourself, Sir, the condition of many and many a deserving officer led to marry by a fair prospect of promotion, and by the usual tradition of the service that he would in his turn obtain employment, and some day become an Admiral. Fancy this poor officer striving to support a family on 8s. 6d. a-day, and condemned to see employment given away, and juniors promoted over his head without any recognized system, and with the knowledge that it all depends on the caprice and the ideas of the private Secretary and the First Sea Lord. I have received piles and piles of letters of the most distressing character, which show only too clearly what misery is being experienced. To add to the continued penalty of poverty, you have devised that most inhuman torture—endless suspense. Month after month your commanders and captains visit the Admiralty, asking for employment, but you have not the courage to tell them the truth that they are never to be employed again. Would it not be the commonest kindness to put some of those officers out of their misery, and to tell them their fate, and let them seek from other employers that due reward of their service which you refuse to give. There never was a time when promotions were so cavilled at owing to their small number. Nothing could be worse than the present system of promotion. I know that my right hon. Friend would not for a moment permit any officer to be promoted from political or interested motives, and I am sure that no one can accuse him of any of those gross promotion scandals which used to be of so frequent occurrence. It would be impossible to select a more favourable moment for criticizing the mode of promotion. Of the two officers who advise, Admiral Sir Alexander Milne is allowed on all hands to be one of the best officers of the Navy, and Captain Tryon is deservedly popular, and above all suspicion of jobbery. But, Sir, I maintain with every intention to act fairly, and to promote the right man under the existing system, it is almost impossible to do it. The First Lord
  780
  consults his two professional advisers, and thereupon makes his selection. It is impossible, with this limited knowledge, to make just promotions. I give every credit to the motives which actuate the private Secretary and the First Naval Lord, but how is it possible that they can know every officer? They naturally look amongst the officers they have served with, and those must practically receive the preference. It is impossible to pick up any professional paper without becoming aware of the fact that there has been great irritation lately against many of the promotions which have been made during the last few years. Seniority tempered by selection—which is the mode under which our lieutenants and commanders are supposed to be promoted—must be carried out not only with the utmost fairness, but it must be by a plan of selection, which inspires confidence in the service, or public opinion will force you into a pure seniority system, which I for one should greatly deplore. I apprehend the only feasible and sensible plan is to adopt the French system of a conseil d'avancement. There you have a body of seven or eight officers outside the Admiralty whose duty it is to examine into all the Reports, and to make minute investigation and to submit names for promotion after the most careful and elaborate inquiry that it is possible to make. With such a council it is absolutely certain that every officer's claim must be known by one of the council and cannot be neglected. After the list is formed it still rests with the First Lord or Minister of Marine to make his selection, but he cannot go beyond this. In this way I am informed by officers of great authority, that little if any complaint is made respecting the promotion, and it is found to work very well. If this were carried out, I apprehend you would hear far less of constant criticizing which every promotion now gives rise to, and you would then be enabled to carry out an improvement which must come before long—the selection of your captains for the rank of Admiral. Is it not a great farce that however incompetent a captain may be, he must of necessity become an Admiral, provided his age admits. Where you have a limited number of Admirals you must have the élite of your service. The other system was tolerated when your

  781
  lists were so large that you had ample choice, but having once restricted the numbers, selection must follow. There were many, who, like myself in 1870, looked forward to this and other measures as certain soon to follow. We thought that three years would not elapse before death vacancies would be limited, if not abolished, before some sort of educational course would be instituted to qualify lieutenants for the rank of commander, not as an examination but as a test, and before attempts would be made to arrange a more certain retirement for lieutenants. We certainly did not think that after the declaration made from the Treasury bench it would be possible three years after to find the lists still blocked, and no promotion or employment. When I urge constant employment, I do not mean that it should of necessity be sea service, but that in lieu of half-pay with enforced idleness, you should attach your officers, when not at sea, to ports, dockyards, committees, and surveying vessels where they would be continually keeping themselves alive to all the changes and requirements of the time, and thus increasing their efficiency. If this policy is pursued in the French Navy, and found to be successful, surely we might adopt it with safety. Sir, I will not trouble the House further in the matter, I will only say that I am confident if the Committee is granted it will prove that the retirement scheme of 1870 has already done great good to many classes of officers, but that an imperative necessity exists for bringing the executive lists into a more healthy condition. As I have already said, the retirement scheme was based on reduced lists, and until this is done it will not have had a fair trial. In the present day, when vast improvements and alterations are being carried out, not only in the construction of your ships but in the science and art of war—when five short years are sufficient to revolutionize the whole aspect of modern warfare, it has become absolutely essential that our executive officers should be well trained in technical and scientific information of every description, that they should be zealous and contented, and that no special knowledge which they may have acquired should be allowed to rust. Our naval officers have ever distinguished themselves—they are worthy of higher consideration, of a more generous
  782
  policy than has of late been accorded to them. I maintain it is unfair to them, it is unjust to the taxpayers of this country; it is derogatory to a great naval nation to carry on a system which keeps your officers in a chronic state of discontent, and prevents them maintaining their efficiency, and which, looking at it in the most mercenary point of view, does not even give you fair value for the money spent. I beg to second the Motion of the right hon. Baronet.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the present system of Promotion and Retirement in the Royal Navy, and to report their opinion thereon to this House."—(Sir John Hay.)
  MR. T. BRASSEY: Before I proceed to speak to the Amendment which I have placed on the Paper, I desire to explain that if the forms of the House had permitted, I should have preferred to present my Amendment as an Instruction to the Committee for which the hon. and gallant Baronet (Sir John Hay) has moved. My object, however, will have been sufficiently attained if I can succeed in calling the attention of the House to the proposals which I am about to make. The efficiency of the Navy cannot be maintained if discontent prevails throughout the service. The enforced idleness to which so many naval officers have hitherto been condemned, would, under any circumstances, be a fruitful cause of discontent, and from every point of view it is a great evil. The origin of the difficulty is not far to seek. It has been our policy to train up, in time of peace, a number of officers sufficient to command our fleets in time of war; but, having trained these officers, it is impossible to find employment for them in a peace Navy. It has long been an accepted axiom that the number of lieutenants must be taken as the datum line upon which the lists of officers in the other ranks of the service must, to a great extent, be determined. As to the number at which the list of lieutenants should be maintained, the Select Committee on Naval Promotion and Retirement of 1863, in their Report, say that, including lieutenants in the Coast Guard and other services, 1,000 is the lowest number to which the active list of lieutenants can be prudently limited. At the same time, they say

  783
  they were quite aware that this list is so large as to render the promotion of all the lieutenants on the list impracticable. By the recent Order in Council, the number of lieutenants has been fixed at 600; but without offering an opinion as to the wisdom of that reduction, it is sufficient for my present purpose to observe that the importance of finding employment is equally great, whatever be the actual numbers with which we have to deal, so long as a large proportion of the officers of the Navy are pining away in poverty or idleness on a miserable half-pay. For the purpose of maintaining the list of lieutenants at a number sufficient to meet the emergencies of war, it has been the practice of successive administrations to enter a far greater number of cadets than it has been possible to promote to the higher ranks of the service. When 200 cadets were entered in every year, and only seven officers were put on the flag list, it is clear that out of those 200 cadets, 193 were doomed to disappointment. They either died, or were put on the retired list. But, discouraging as are the prospects of the majority of the cadets who enter the Navy, the Admiralty is always beset with urgent solicitations from parents and friends for nominations to cadetships. This demand must be attributed to the desire of parents to obtain for their sons the advantage of the gratuitous education which is given to all-comers who aspire to become officers in the Navy. I strongly object to the principle of tempting parents in narrow circumstances, by the offer of this gratuitous education, to send their sons into a profession which is so ill adapted for those who have not the advantage of some independent resources. It has been urged by the most eminent officers that our naval cadets should be educated at a College ashore. But such an institution should be self-supporting, and the boys should be required to pay for their education in the same way as those who are trained for the Army at Sandhurst, and for every other profession. In support of this view, I may quote the opinions of Admiral Cooper Key, the Duke of Somerset, and many high authorities on naval subjects. If any exception be allowed to the rule requiring payment for the education of a cadet at a naval College, it should be limited to the sons
  784
  of naval officers. Passing from the nomination and the education of cadets, we have now to deal with the more difficult problem of finding the means of employing and promoting a body of lieutenants whose numbers, even under the reduced scale laid down in the Order in Council prepared by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Childers), are considerably in excess of the ordinary requirements of a time of peace. Nearly one-third of the lieutenants are now on half-pay. Various means can doubtless be suggested for dealing with the case of these officers. The propriety of allowing lieutenants more leave on half-pay than they at present enjoy deserves consideration. Naval officers, after a long commission abroad, or when invalided home from a foreign station, are as much entitled to the privilege as the officers of the Army. After an absence of four years, a year's leave on full-pay cannot be considered an over liberal allowance. Under the existing regulations, an officer does not enjoy more than six months leave on full-pay in the first 10 or 15 years of his service. But an adequate promotion, as well as employment, is required for deserving lieutenants; and in order to secure a sufficient flow of promotion, the number of officers in the superior ranks of the Navy is maintained at a standard considerably in excess of the ordinary requirements of the service. This plan of rewarding good service in the Navy is of old date. In 1816, at the conclusion of the War, lieutenants' commissions were given to all mates of above two years standing. More than 1,000 lieutenants were then made. In the French Navy, no officers on the active flag list are without employment. In the United States Navy, all the officers of lower grade, and almost all the Admirals, are employed. But with us, in consequence of the disproportion between their numbers and the amount of employment during peace, the commanders and captains are not employed at sea on an average more than one-third of their time; and in the case of the flag officers, the proportion of time on half-pay is infinitely greater. It is unnecessary to dwell on the insufficiency of the half-pay. A naval officer without private means cannot maintain a social position commensurate with his rank in Her Majesty's service. On the other hand,

  785
  the total amount of the non-effective Naval Vote is already so portentous, that no considerable permanent addition to that Vote could be entertained. Something might be done for the commanders and captains, both to improve their position in a pecuniary sense, and to give them more frequent opportunities of serving at sea, by employing commanders in lieu of first-lieutenants and captains in commanders' commands. But there is another means of relieving the overcrowded lists, to which I desire more especially on the present occasion to call attention. My proposal is that civil employment, of a kind for which naval experience is a fitting preparation, should be offered to officers for whom it is impossible to provide occupation afloat. There are two branches of the public service for which naval officers are thoroughly adapted. I mean the Consular service at foreign ports, and the surveyorships of shipping, under the Board of Trade, at home ports. The post of Consul at a foreign port can scarcely be regarded as a diplomatic appointment, though, if it were, I should be prepared to maintain that a well-selected naval officer would be as fit as most other men who would be available for the service. For the general business of a Consular office, nautical experience is an excellent preparation. The most important transactions with which our Consuls at ports abroad are accustomed to deal are connected with ships or sailors. When a British ship is wrecked abroad, and an application is made to the Consul for assistance, how much better qualified he would be to take whatever steps the necessity of the moment required, if he were himself an experienced sailor. The other class of civil employment to which I have referred is that of the surveyors of shipping under the Board of Trade. Some considerable technical knowledge of shipbuilding would be required in order to perform these duties; but it is a knowledge which a sailor would readily acquire. Character, indeed, is at least as essential as technical knowledge; and at present the salaries are so inadequate that it is difficult to induce men to enter the public service in this department, whose social position makes them independent of every kind of influence. If naval officers were appointed, their professional associations would make them
  786
  superior to temptation; and with their half-pay in addition to their salary under the Board of Trade, their positions would, without additional expense to the country, be made more satisfactory than those held by the majority of the existing body of surveyors. These surveyorships and Consular appointments would offer a wide field for naval officers unable to find employment in their own profession. The surveyors under the Board of Trade are not a numerous body, but their number may probably be increased in order to provide for that more active supervision of our shipping, which, whatever be the form which it may ultimately take, seems to be impatiently demanded by public opinion. The withdrawal of so many officers on half-pay from the active lists would have the effect of giving increased employment to those officers who continued to serve exclusively in the Navy, thus adding materially to their efficiency. The advantage of this more frequent employment has been strongly insisted on by our best officers. In conclusion, I would refer to a field of employment in which naval officers judiciously selected would find it in their power to render services of great value. For the Royal Naval Reserve a staff of naval officers is absolutely essential. The discipline, the drill, the organization, the appliances for instruction, of the Royal Naval Reserve have hitherto suffered from not being placed under the close and constant supervision of a sufficient naval staff. An Admiral at the head of the Reserve is required at Whitehall; a lieutenant should be present during the drills on the gun-deck; captains should be appointed to superintend the general organization in their several districts, and to combine the varied resources of the Mercantile Marine in an effective manner for the local coast defence. The value of the Naval Reserve has been sometimes called in question. If the Reserve is not all that it ought to be, it is because we have hitherto neglected to supply the means by which the force may be more perfectly organized. A very different spirit has prevailed in the organization of our reserves for the land service. There are general officers at the head, supported by a vast array of colonels and adjutants. But hitherto the entire burden of organizing the Naval Reserves has been cast upon a

  787
  member of the Board of Admiralty already overtasked by his other duties. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the Amendment of which he had given Notice.
  MR. LIDDELL,in seconding the Amendment, said, he felt such a love and interest for the Navy that he was induced to offer these remarks. He condemned the hard-and-fast line which had been used for the purpose of reducing the numbers of the senior members of the service. Any line drawn by the Admiralty which retired such men as his hon. and gallant Friend (Sir John Hay) bore upon its face its own condemnation. What the Admiralty ought to do was to act upon the service at both ends; they ought to limit the entries in the first place, and to establish a more generous scheme of retirement for the senior officers. If he understood the French system, there existed in it a principle wholly unknown in this country. In France there was a regular flow of employment for naval officers which never stopped. They were employed either at the Bureau de la Marine, or at sea, in the dockyards, at the arsenals, or on a duty unknown in this country—namely, organizing Naval Reserves, both offensive and defensive, in the ports. If we would consent to trust in time of war more than we had hitherto done to our Mercantile Marine for our second line of defence, we might safely limit the entries of young officers in time of peace; and by founding a generous system of retirement, we might maintain an efficient state of the Navy without those grievances and complaints which it would be cheap at the expense of hundreds or thousands to avoid.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "consider" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "how far Naval Officers on half-pay can be more generally employed in the Consular Service, and in the numerous appointments under the Marine Department of the Board of Trade," —(Mr. Thomas Brassey,)
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. CHILDERS: Sir, it may be convenient to the House if I make some remarks on this Motion before my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Ad-
  788
  miralty. The Motion, it is true, relates not only to the great changes which were effected while I was First Lord, in the rules of promotion and retirement, but also to the recent Acts of the Board of Admiralty, with which, of course, I am not conversant. But the main part of the hon. Baronet's attack is undoubtedly directed at the Order in Council of 1870; and so far as time allows, I should like to reply at once to that attack. I do so at great disadvantage, for I did not hear the hon. Baronet's speech. The unexplained absence from his place of the hon. Member for South Hants has deprived many of us of two debates, while others like myself who were not concerned with them, have missed what we wished to hear on the present subject. But I will reply to so much of the hon. Baronet's statements as have reached me. Let me now in the first place explain what were the circumstances in 1870, which led, to what is properly called, the "scheme of retirement," then established. Since the Crimean War it had been an acknowledged axiom that the number of naval officers was excessive. But the full force of this had hardly ever been admitted at the Admiralty, and the reductions which were made did not even keep up with the altered state of naval affairs from year to year. The substitution of vessels of new type for our old ships, a wiser policy as to England's share in the police of the seas, and other economical tendencies, were causing a rapid diminution in the amount of employment available for certain classes of the service. Nor was this the only difficulty. There was no method, no intelligible principle, I may say, in the rules as to pay, promotion, or retirement, as between different branches of the profession. Every class had its grievance, because it found some other with which it could make, in some respect, an unfavourable comparison. Each, in turn, found some friend at the Admiralty or in Parliament, and almost the only result of improvement in one class was the jealousy of other classes. In respect of retirement the scale and the conditions were unsatisfactory and inadequate throughout; and the same might be said of the pensions of the lower class of officers. Perhaps the House will allow me to give a few figures. Taking what is called the military branch first, there were, in

  789
  1858—a year or two after the Crimean War—2,100 officers of the rank of flag officer, captain, commander, and lieutenant. In 1870, all we wanted of these ranks was 1,000. But the previous three retirements of 1860, 1864, and 1866 had only brought the numbers down from 2,100 to 1,600, and the percentage of employment, which had been so low as 46 per cent at the former date, was still only 50 per cent in a list of younger men. On the other hand, while the Admiralty reduced the upper ranks by about 50 a-year, they absolutely entered not only as many, but far more naval cadets than were required for the larger number, and, in fact, taking the upper and lower ranks together, were increasing instead of diminishing the number of officers. In 1857 the number of entries was 105; exactly the number of officers who died, retired, or were dismissed in that year. But from 1858 to 1868, inclusive, the number of cadets entered was 1847, or about 170 a-year; while the total number of officers from Admiral to cadet who died or retired from the service was only 1,543, or 140 a-year. Professing, therefore, to reduce the number of officers, the Admiralty were really increasing it; with the additional circumstances that the inconvenience did not fall on themselves, but would only begin to tell on the lists when the cadets they nominated became lieutenants. I had, therefore, to deal with a list, the upper part of which had been insufficiently, but still, to a considerable extent, lessened, while the lower part had been enormously and most unnecessarily augmented, the diminution of employment being at last palpable to everyone. Nor was the case better in other branches of the services. The paymaster and clerks' list was more excessive in proportion even than the military officers. There were too many navigating officers, too many engineers, too many medical officers of the highest ranks, too many warrant officers. My predecessor had largely reduced the Marines, but increased the marine officers, leaving me a task the very reverse of agreeable in respect of this corps. And my hands were not a little tied by a part of the Orders of 1866—the supposed favouritism of which had all but produced a rejection of the Vote in the House of Commons. What I did in 1869–70 may be stated in a few words.
  790
  There were altogether about 7,850 officers of the Navy and Marines; and I took in hand their reduction to about 5,500. I put the regulations as to retirement, half-pay promotion, and sea-time, on as as nearly as possible an uniform and simple basis, greatly improving in nearly every instance the pecuniary rights of the officer. I did my best to counteract, in spite of social pressure and a hostile Motion in this House, the privileges which certain officers had claimed, being anxious to treat all alike, from flag officer to midshipmen. And in respect of pay, I made very large additions to certain classes. The result, in spite of the hon. Baronet, I affirm, to be satisfactory. The grievances and the difficulties of two-thirds—I think I may say three-fourths—of the service have been removed. Except on a question which has no connection with number or retirement, even the navigating officers are satisfied; and the same may be said of every other class but the captains, commanders, and lieutenants on the military list. Here, I admit, the work is not complete. The list of these ranks, which numbered 2,100 in 1857, and 1,600 in 1869, and which ought to have come down to 1,000, still numbers above 1,250. It is with these 250 or 270 that we have now to deal. The hon. Baronet, I am aware, is not satisfied with this view of the case. He thinks we have too few flag officers, and by comparing the ages of the 56 youngest of each rank in 1870 with those of all the 56 in 1873, he has persuaded himself that we have actually older officers now than then. He has also calculated that even were the Order in Council in full operation it would not produce the amount of promotion and retirement really required. Now, on this point I must trouble the House with some figures. I have taken great pains to calculate, on the basis of the numbers established by the Order in Council, what promotion may be fairly expected; and I will give roughly the result. The problem to be solved is how many retirements—the probable deaths being determined by the usual scale—will give an average promotion to each rank at the right age? I take 23 as the desirable age, on the average, for promotion to lieutenant, 32 to commander, 38 to captain, and 53 to Bear Admiral; and I assume the number of those ranks to be

  791
  600, 200, 150, and 50 respectively. Now, I assert that if 70 cadets are annually entered, the Order in Council being in full operation, the proper promotion will be secured, if 21 lieutenants, 11 commanders, 5 captains, and 5 flag officers retire annually; and that the provisions of the Orders effectually secure an average retirement to that extent. For instance, if every Rear Admiral must retire at 60, and every vice or full Admiral at 65, it is certain that out of a list of flag officers, the youngest of whom is about 53, there will average 4 compulsory retirements and 2 deaths yearly. Allowing only one optional retirement, this will give 7 captain's promotions. Again, on a list of 150 captains from 38 to 53, there will be 3 deaths annually. At the rate in 1872 and 1873, there would be 10 retirements; but taking these only at 5, we should have 15 promotions for commanders. Similarly we may anticipate 4 deaths annually in the last-named rank, and at least 11 retirements; and this would give 30 promotions from the rank of lieutenant. Again, allowing nine years for service in this rank as the average of those who obtain promotion, there will be an ample margin of officers not promoted—and we must always allow for this in the lieutenants rank—if against 60 annually promoted from sub-lieutenant we set 9 deaths out of 600, 21 retirements, and 30 promotions to commander. An annual entry of 70 cadets will barely produce 60 lieutenants a-year, so that my calculations err if anything on the side of caution. There is therefore practically no doubt that once fully in force the Orders of 1870 will ensure for the military branch what they have already given to other branches of the service—adequate promotion and retirement on liberal terms. Sir, I confess I attach great value to the maintenance of the principle of these Orders. My hon. Friend the Member for South Northumberland (Mr. Liddell) has referred to a particular case, and has said that any rule which enforced the retirement of such an officer as the hon. Baronet (Sir John Hay), must be a bad rule. I admit that the hon. Baronet's case appears a hard one. But he had been offered employment which he had declined.
  SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he thought it a great misfortune that personal questions were brought before the House. He had carefully omitted doing so him-
  792
  self, and he extremely regretted the reference which his hon. Friend had made to his own case. He was quite prepared to explain the circumstance to which the right hon. Gentleman alluded, if the House really cared to hear it. He denied having ever declined any appointment which he could have accepted with honour, and when he did decline he referred the question to his right hon. Friend the late Member for Tyrone (Mr. Corry) and his right hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire who both said that he could not accept it with honour.
  MR. CHILDERS: Every man must be the judge of his own honour. The hon. Baronet does not dispute the fact of my offer of employment, and I wish to carry the controversy no further.
  SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he did dispute the facts. The right hon. Gentleman had alluded to two occasions—one when, happening to meet his private Secretary in 1869, he said to him—"My man is very sweet upon you; if you let me know you want employment I shall be happy to get it for you." He supposed that to be a joke. The next occasion was a year and a-half afterwards, when the retirement scheme had been carried, and when an offer of employment was made which he had referred to his right hon. Friend, who decided that the office was one which he ought not to accept.
  MR. CHILDERS: I mentioned the case because my hon. Friend almost challenged me to do so, and I gave it as an illustration of the old saying about hard cases. To go back to what I was saying I trust that the sound principles we laid down will be observed, however their application in detail may vary from time to time. Do not let it be supposed that in calculating the necessary numbers, we omitted the reserve for war. We fully allowed for this, and I should greatly deplore any further extension on this account. Everything, indeed, points in the other direction, and I find myself in certain quarters blamed now for the moderation of my reductions. Indeed, the very same persons, and their organs in the Press, who attacked me in 1870 for over reducing the lists—especially the captains and lieutenants—and if I am not mistaken, threatened me with a Motion on the subject in Parliament, are now the loudest to complain that in these very lists the reductions effected

  793
  are inadequate and prevent sufficient employment. Hit high or hit low, there are some forms of opposition which nothing satisfies. Let it be remembered that in these days of progress, you cannot have an efficient Navy unless they are adequately employed at sea. Just as we decided to maintain an annual rate of shipbuilding, so as to keep with the times in mechanical improvements, so we determined to compel our officers to be, throughout their service, for an adequate time at sea, so as not to fall behind in scientific knowledge and practice. It is a libel on this policy to say that economy was its first object. Our main view was the efficiency and contentment of the service; but the result has been economical. The figures which have been quoted to-night have no reference whatever to either what I promised, or to the out-turn. I have carefully compared the cost to the country of the pay, half-pay, and retired pay of naval officers in each year from 1867 until now, not omitting to allow for commutations; and I find that whereas I estimated, and informed the House in 1870, that there would be a large increase of charge during the first two years, that increase was limited to the first year, and that the net cost is now £50,000 a-year less than in 1867–8, and just the same as in 1869–70. There is, therefore, a fair margin for some further action to bring down the excessive number from 1,270 to 1,000; and I hope my right hon. Friend will not shrink from a bold measure. I repudiate, as much as any one, the notion that through the time clauses of the Orders it was intended to drive out of the service efficient officers; and as only two cases have been even alleged, I think the action of my right hon. Friend in the past is fully justified. But he will have my warm approval in any scheme inducing a further number voluntarily to retire; and I sincerely hope that he will not listen to the plan of the hon. Baronet, which would work great mischief. I thank the House for having allowed me to defend a reform, every part of which I believe to be sound in principle, and certain, when in full operation, to be cordially accepted by the opinion of the Naval Service.
  MR. F. STANLEYobserved that, however sanguine the expectations of the right hon. Gentleman might be, they
  794
  had before them the fact that by his own acknowledgment the hopes held out to them in 1870 had not been realized. That circumstance alone was sufficient to justify his hon. Friend's demand for an inquiry. Again, the public expenditure had not been diminished by the new scheme, as they were told it would be; on the contrary, as the right hon. Gentleman had himself shown, it had been increased by the sum of £8,000. The right hon. Gentleman said that the criticism of the scheme was different now from what it formerly was, but it should be remembered that they spoke now from experience of its working, which was also different. He intended to support the appointment of the Committee, and he regretted that its advocacy had fallen into such weak hands as his own, in consequence of the illness of his noble Friend (Lord Henry Lennox) who sat beside him.
  MR. GOSCHENsaid, he felt it due to Captain Sherard Osborn to state that he accepted command on the usual terms, and only applied to be relieved of it on account of unexpected events, the Admiralty at first refusing his application, but afterwards, on the recommendation of the Commander-in-Chief, acceding to it. There was no understanding on either side that his command would be a short one. The Admiralty had now under consideration a scheme for further improving Retirement, and there was every prospect of its being carried out. They wished to reduce the lists, but they had not endeavoured to effect this by forcing officers off and refusing to employ them. As to promotion, heartburnings had always existed on account of their being so many excellent officers and so few opportunities of promoting them, and the present state of things was no worse than formerly, while the anxiety to investigate every case was as great as it had ever been. The Government were so anxious to find increased employment for the officers, if possible, and also further inducements to retire that they would accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Brassey), and there being no difference of opinion as to the necessity of dealing with the case of the unemployed officers, he trusted the hon. Baronet would not divide.
  MR. BARNETTsaid, he had been told that there were four Admirals on

  795
  The Navy List for active service whose united ages amounted to 335 years. If that were true, it was necessary that some further scheme of reduction should be set on foot.
  SIR JOHN HAYoffered to withdraw his Motion on the understanding that the Committee would have power to inquire why the necessity for finding additional employment for officers had arisen.
  MR. GOSCHENdeclined to agree to such an understanding.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 64; Noes 81: Majority 17.
  Words added.
  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider how far Naval Officers on half-pay can be more generally employed in the Consular Service, and in the numerous appointments under the Marine Department of the Board of Trade.

  EDUCATION OF BLIND AND DEAFMUTE CHILDREN BILL— [BILL 53.]
  (Mr. Wheelhouse, Mr. Mellor)

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading, read.
  MR. WHEELHOUSE,in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, its object was to do for blind and deaf-mute children what the Education Act of two years ago did for the rest of the community.
  MR. HIBBERTopposed the Bill, as one that would burden the ratepayers with the expense of providing for the education of children whose parents were quite able to provide for such education themselves. This Bill was worse, instead of better, than its two predecessors.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time," put, and negatived.

  RATING (LIABILITY AND VALUE) [PAYMENT OF RATES].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of rates in respect of property occupied for the purposes of Government, which may become chargeable thereto under any Act relating to the Liability and Valuation of such Property for the purposes of Rates.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow.
  House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (No. 5)* (149); Juries (Ireland)* (150); Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Nos. 4 and 6)* (151 and 152).
Second Reading—Agricultural Children (102); County Authorities (Loans)* (124); Customs Duties (Isle of Man)* (116); Registration (Ireland)* (138).
Committee—Report—Crown Lands* (117); Gas and Water Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 2)* (125); Matrimonial Causes Acts Amendment* (105).
Third Reading—Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation* (96), and passed.

AGRICULTURAL CHILDREN BILL.
(The Lord Henniker.)

(NO. 102.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
LORD HENNIKERsaid, it was with diffidence he brought this Bill before their Lordships upon so important a subject, as a young Member of the House; but it was one in which he had taken great interest, and he believed the Bill would recommend itself on its own merits to their Lordships' consideration and approval. It was prepared and brought into the House of Commons by his hon. Friend Mr. Clare Read, who always dealt with any question he might take up in a practical and business-like manner, and who was fully conversant with the subject to which the Bill referred. The name of Mr. Kay-Shuttleworth was on the back of the House of Commons Bill, and was another guaran-

713
tee of its having been carefully and ably prepared. Without going into the details of the Bill, he (Lord Henniker) would state very shortly its main provisions. It provided that no child should be employed in agriculture under the age of eight, that up to the age of ten no child should be employed who could not produce a certificate of having attended a school 250 times during the previous year, and that up to the age of 13 no child should be employed unless it could produce a certificate of 150 attendances in the previous year. The number of attendances would be found to correspond with the rules laid down in the new Education Code. These certificates would only hold good for one year from the date of issue. Penalties were imposed upon parents and others for infringement of the Act, and more heavily upon employers. These were the most important provisions of the Bill; the details would probably be fully discussed in Committee. The Bill brought into the House of Commons last year was the same as that of this Session, which was almost unanimously agreed to by that House, with the exception of a new clause to leave parents who employed their children in helping them in their allotments or gardens outside the Bill; and it came, with one or two good Amendments, pretty much in the same form to their Lordships' House, with one important exception—namely, that the limit of age was altered from 12 to 13. The Bill was one which had been required for some time past, and was brought in to meet a great and increasing difficulty which, perhaps, this was the first opportunity to remedy. They had schools nearly everywhere now—and soon he trusted they would have them everywhere—with certificated teachers, under Government inspection; the Education Department clearly intended this by the notices issued, for they called for full accommodation in the schools and insisted on certificated teachers. The difficulty was, however, to fill the schools when they were built, not alone with those children who would work, but even small children, who did nothing but play and run wild in the roads and lanes. No doubt, education was very much more appreciated than it had been, but still the apathy of some parents was very great; they had little or no education themselves in many in-
714
stances, and although they were ready to admit the advantages a good school near them offered, if the subject was brought before them, they were only too apt to pay but little serious attention to it, or they would on the slightest possible pretext be only too glad to take their children from school. It might be said, why not have direct compulsion at once? One reason was, he could not believe it would be found possible to work such a system well—if at all—in a country district; and he had the authority of those who could claim to give an opinion, as well as the result of his own experience, to justify him in saying so, whatever might be done in a town with such a system. It could not, certainly, be worked without a great deal of interference—if not entire control—from some central authority. This he particularly objected to. Then with any system of direct compulsion they had the greatest difficulty of all to get over—the effect upon the earnings of the children; whereas the system proposed would act in a slight degree in this respect, but only to so small an extent as to create an incentive to comply with, the Act. Direct compulsion was surely not required in this case, for where a constant interest was taken in a school now, it was pretty well filled. This showed that a slight pressure would, probably, do all that was necessary at the present time. If so, it must be better than driving children to school by direct compulsion; it would be a less interference between the parent and the child; and would act far less harshly in the case of a largo and poor family, where sometimes a child's earnings were of very great importance. Education, too, was as much required in this as in any other branch of the subject; he meant, to lead on by degrees all who were concerned to a real, a sound, and a lasting appreciation of the advantages of education. He (Lord Henniker) wished to introduce one or two Amendments. One was to make the limit of age 12 instead of 13, once more. He thought it was going far enough. The limit of age at present in the Bill would act hardly, and unnecessarily so, in many cases, where the limit of 12 would not. A difficulty in arriving at a fixed limit of age appeared here, which did not appear in dealing with children employed in manufactories and workshops, for children were seldom

715
employed at an age in agriculture where their health would be injured. There were no hardships in this respect except where children worked in a gang. However, the Bill altered the ago laid down by the Gang's Act from 8 to 10, at which a child was allowed to work. Different circumstances in different localities make it difficult to decide upon the right limit as to age. In one place 7 or 10 was the lowest age at which children were employed; at another 11 or 12, while in others 12 or 13 was the earliest age at which children were useful—namely, where they were required for ploughing, and so on. Mr. Fraser—now a right rev. Prelate, a Member of the House—saw this difficulty in making his Report as a sub-Commissioner to inquire into this question. Then it was said children ought to be trained in the habits of work early, but here again they had the evidence of labourers before the same Commission, which proved that 12 or 13 was quite early enough to give ample time to learn all that was required. Mr. Tremenheere, one of the principal Commissioners, said in his Report—
"The principle which I desire to keep in view in the consideration of this complicated and difficult question is that legislation should conform as nearly as possible to the existing habits of the country, and should interfere with those habits only to the extent indispensable to the objects to be attained."
This object was attained by this Bill, if it were put back to its original form, for it would take a middle course between the age laid down by the Factory Act, and that wished for by those who thought the Bill went too far, and with the indirect system proposed it would act fairly in most districts. Twelve was an age at which children could have learnt a great deal, and would be quite late enough to keep them at school in most cases, and particularly where a night school existed. It would be a great point, too, to be able to work the Act without paid Inspectors. This he believed to be possible if the age were not put too high. Employers, as a rule, and especially large employers of labour, had been extremely liberal in helping to build schools, and he believed they would do all they could, within reasonable limits, to try to fill them. However, if Inspectors were, after a time, required, the promoters of the Bill would willingly come to Parliament for power to appoint them.
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A clause would be brought in, as an alternative, to meet the wishes of many who took an interest in the question, to provide for a certificate of proficiency, that any child who could pass the fourth standard of the Education Code should be exempt from the restriction imposed by the Act. He (Lord Henniker) thought regular attendance at school far more important, but he would bring the clause forward for the consideration of their Lordships. The clause would also suspend the operation of the Act whenever a school was closed for a holiday or for any temporary purpose. Many thought the Bill went too far—many not far enough. He would say to those who thought the Bill went too far, agricultural children were the only wage-earning children who were not subject to restrictions, and each day, when labour was becoming dearer and more scarce, they would require labourers better educated and more skilled. To those who thought the Bill did not go far enough, he would say, bring forward a more workable plan, and if they thought it did not go far enough, at all events they would admit it was a step in the right direction. He must thank their Lordships for listening to him so long—the importance of the subject must be his excuse. He had always wished for such a measure; he thought the opportunity had come, and he trusted the Bill would be read a second time. He believed it would create a great change for the better, without any real hardship or injury to any one; that it would be found to be all that was required, and that it would work well. He hoped most sincerely it might help to teach those who cared little now for education, how much it meant, and to show how little any small sacrifice either employer or employed might be called upon to make was, in comparison to the good effect a sound system of education must have, at a time when each day the class which this Bill particularly affected, required more and more to understand the questions which came nearly home to them, and when so many were ready to trade upon their ignorance.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Henniker).
VISCOUNT PORTMANsaid, he did not object to the principle of the Bill, but he thought it was imperfect in a great

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many particulars, and on looking through the various clauses he found reasons for regretting that the Home Department did not exercise a more careful supervision over measures such as this. The noble Lord having criticized some of the provisions of the Bill, said, he thought it would be impossible to carry it out in its present shape, and, therefore, he hoped that the noble Lord who had charge of it would agree to refer it to a Select Committee.
THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he felt bound to say a few words on the subject—particularly after the observations of the noble Lord who had just sat down. There was no one in that House whose opinion he valued more on matters relating to the welfare of the agricultural classes; but he confessed he was extremely disappointed at hearing the conclusions to which his noble Friend had arrived. His noble Friend said he defied any one, on looking at this Bill as it stood, to carry it into operation. He (the Duke of Richmond), however, without being presumptuous, thought he could readily undertake to carry out its provisions without doing injustice to any One. As to what his noble Friend had said about the want of supervision on the part of the Home Office in respect of legislation such as was proposed by this Bill, he could not concur in thinking that it was needed in this instance. He was not the champion of the Government—he had something else to do—but he did not think the supervision of the Home Office would have done much to make this a better Bill. As for the principle of the Bill, he did not think that anybody would deny that it was just and wise that the Legislature should endeavour to secure a better education for the children of the agricultural classes; and he thought its general provisions excellent. But he was glad to hear his noble Friend (Lord Henniker) who had charge of the Bill intimate his intention of making some valuable alterations in it respecting the employment of children in gangs; and he thought this Bill would be an excellent one when the Amendments sketched out by his noble Friend were introduced, and seine further provisions introduced to meet the exigencies of harvest time and hop-picking. Although there was no doubt that the children employed in the fields enjoyed much better health than those
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engaged in factories, nevertheless he did not think it right that they should be kept employed at all times and at all seasons, and for himself he made it a rule not to give employment to children under a certain age. He thought the alteration Ms noble Friend proposed that children who had attained a certain proficiency should not be subjected to the restrictions imposed on other children, but might continue to follow their agricultural employment without interruption, was a great improvement. In some districts the employment of children was absolutely necessary, and he had no desire that obstacles should be thrown in the way of their being so employed, but he thought the promoters of the Bill would do well to consent to such alterations and additions as would remove the possibility of such obstacles. He believed that with these alterations their Lordships might very well assent to the measure, which he thought with due consideration in Committee might he turned into a very useful one.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYhoped their Lordships would not refuse to give this Bill a second reading, seeing that it was almost identical with the one which he introduced in 1867, and to which their Lordships gave a second reading in the Session of that year. He did not press that Bill in Committee, because there was a prevailing opinion that it was one which the House of Commons would not pass. The fact that legislation on the subject was attempted in their Lordships' House in 1867 showed that the House of Commons had not a monopoly in originating measures for the amelioration of the condition of the working classes; but as the House of Commons had come round to their Lordships' view of the matter in 1873, he thought it would be most unbecoming if their Lordships were also to turn round and refuse to do in 1873 what they had done so long ago as 1867.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he should be sorry to be understood as pledging himself to every detail of the Bill, but he thought the House would do well to assent to the second reading of this measure, the objects of which every one must approve. He thought the Bill required a clause exempting children above the age of 10 years from attendance at school if they passed a satisfacfactory examination. As there was such

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a provision in the School Board Act, it would be an inconsistency on the part of the Legislature not to allow of it in this Bill. It was high time to take steps to secure a better education to children engaged in agriculture; and the present was a favourable time for taking measures in that direction, because the general rise in wages would obviate some of the difficulties that might arise from the loss of the children's wages.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYconcurred with the noble Earl that there was no difference as to the principles of this Bill—the only question was as to the time and the manner of passing such a Bill as this; and he could not concur with the noble Earl in thinking the present, when the labour market was so much disturbed, was an opportune time for legislation which would increase the difficulty of the farmer in procuring the labour necessary for the cultivation of his land. Many farmers were depending very much on children to get them through their difficulties, and he was afraid that unless the provisions of the Bill were well guarded they would increase these difficulties in procuring the necessary labour at times when their most pressing work had to be done. Therefore Parliament, while making provision for the better education of children in the agricultural districts, ought to take care it did not still further hamper the farmer, and turn the labour-market still more against him than it was at present. He should have preferred to wait till the labour-market was more settled. Some of the clauses moreover would press hardly upon the poor, and their Lordships ought not to unnecessarily intensify the dislike of the farmers and labourers to national education. As the Bill stood, a boy could not be employed unless he had been at school so many times in the previous year. Suppose he had been ill, and a serious source of expense to his poor parents during the previous year, the effect of such a provision might be to prevent him from earning money when his parents most wanted it; when, in fact, every penny that any of the family could earn was of importance if the family was to be kept out of the workhouse.
THE DUKE OF CLEVELANDthought it would be unwise to delay the passing of some such measure as this the operation of which he believed would be very
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beneficial. He thought that Clause 8 required to be very much modified.
THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, it was of more importance that people should be fed than that they should be educated. If this Bill would not restrict agricultural labour it would be useless, while if it did restrict it the productiveness of the land would to that extent be diminished, affecting farmers in the first instance, but ultimately the whole community. He knew a village with a population of 1,000 where £150 was annually paid for the labour of boys under 13 years of age, their wages being 3s. or 4s. a-week, and showing every tendency to rise; and while labourers often spent a large portion of their earnings at the public-house, children took theirs home to their mothers—so that on this 3s. or 4s. a-week it might depend whether the family were well fed and clad or otherwise. Children were more healthy at work in the fields than shut up in school, and at a time when rates were high and labour was dear, it was undesirable to increase the difficulties of farmers. He thought the tendency of the Bill would be to deprive farmers of the labour they needed, and the poor of the wages necessary to their subsistence and comfort.
THE EARL OF HARROWBYpointed out that the indirect compulsion aimed at by the Bill would be less elastic than the direct compulsion enforced by school boards, whose bye-laws permitted' the employment of children in cases where local circumstances rendered it expedient.
EARL NELSONconsidered that the Bill was not opposed to the interests of the farmers. He would refer their Lordships to the Petition he had that day presented from the Synod of the diocese of Salisbury praying that the Bill might pass. The Synod comprised lay representatives elected from the different parishes. Two principal tenant farmers, in supporting a Petition in favour of the Bill stated that they had no wish to employ children at a very early age. The parents would be compensated for the loss of their children's earnings if the Bill in its general application greatly checked the employment of children by the increased value of adult labour. But even if the parents did now receive a temporary benefit from the employment of their children at an early age, the children themselves must be injured by being debarred from high

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wages in after-life. For the intelligence gained from education was the surest means of obtaining a real and permanent rise of wages and position. In all cases where the Bill had been carefully discussed, the conclusion had been arrived at that it would prove a great boon to the children, and as it was very carefully guarded, to the parents and employers also.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, no doubt the Synod of the diocese of Salisbury had petitioned, as the noble Earl lead stated, in favour of the Bill. Now, Synods were very well fitted to deal with matters within their own proper province, but he could not understand what interest they had in a question of this sort.
LORD DYNEVORobserved that a compulsory law might inflict serious injury upon poor parents in agricultural districts. It should be remembered that there was a great deal of difference between children working in the open air and in mines or factories.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, it was provided by the 2nd clause that the Bill should not extend to Scotland or Ireland. He could not see why, if it were good for this country, it should not apply to all parts of the United Kingdom.
LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICKsaid, he did not think that the state of the labour market furnished any reason against passing the Bill at the present time; and it certainly was not likely that the wages of agricultural labourers would ever be less than they were at present. He thought, on the contrary, it was most desirable to pass the Bill now, for it would promote the interests of the children and the general spread of education, without so far as he could see producing any injurious effects whatever.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday the 19 th instant.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (NO. 5) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Act, 1870, to enable the School Board for the parish of Llanelly, Carmarthen, to put in force the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, and the Acts amending the same—Was presented by The LORD PRIVY SEAL; read 1a. (No. 149.)
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (NO. 4) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Act, 1870, to enable the School Board for the parish of Llanrwst to put in force the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, and the Acts amending the same—Was presented by The LORD PRIVY SEAL; read 1a. (No. 151.)

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (NO. 6) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Act, 1870, to enable the School Board for the parish of Merthyr Tydfil to put in force the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, and the Acts amending the same—Was presented by The LORD PRIVY SEAL; read 1a. (No. 152.)
House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.