Sitting of 24 February 1873

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Turnpike Acts Continuance, appointed.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—Committee— R.P.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Railways Provisional Certificate* [78].
Second Reading—Victoria Embankment (Somerset House)* [41]; Custody of Infants [67].
Considered as amended—Bastardy Laws Amendment* [75].
Third Reading—Polling Districts (Ireland)* [1]; Local Government Provisional Orders* [2]; Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Orders* [63], and passed.

UNIVERSITY EDUCATION (IRELAND) BILL—THE COUNCIL.—QUESTIONS.
LORD ROBERT MONTAGUasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether

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it is intended (by sec. 31, p. 15, of the University Education (Ireland) Bill) that, on the first Monday in November 1874, the twenty-eight Ordinary Members of the Council, and the Collegiate Members sent by the Colleges to be mentioned in the First Schedule, shall at once proceed to admit to the University system any other Colleges which may before that time have applied for admission; and, if so, whether provision will be made to secure that those new Colleges shall send their representatives to the Council before the day (January 1, 1875) mentioned in Clause 2; and, whether it is proposed to vary the representation of each College from year to year, according to the number of students which may be matriculated?
MR. GLADSTONEapprehended the meaning of the Bill was that the Council, when completed on the 1st of November, 1874, would be enabled, if it thought fit, to exercise any of its functions in preparation for the 1st of January, 1875. With regard, however, to the intention of the Government or the intention of Parliament, that, he supposed, was to be looked for only in the measure itself, and whatever was not contained in the Bill would be in the discretion of the Council with reference to the purposes for which they were appointed. Supposing they exercised their functions in such a way as to declare certain Colleges to be members of the University, he apprehended that intention would have no effect until the 1st of January, 1875. In reply to the second Question, he had to state that the intention of the framers of the Bill was that the period when the election was to be held should be conclusive and final with regard to the election for the Council.
LORD ROBERT MONTAGUwished to know whether there was no provision to be included in the Bill which would cause the Council to affiliate Colleges so that those Colleges might be able to send up members before the 1st of January?
MR. GLADSTONE: It appears to me that the Question of the noble Lord rather anticipates the discussions in Committee on the Bill.

METRIC WEIGHTS AND MEASURES—LEGISLATION.—QUESTION.
MR. J. B. SMITHasked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether
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it be his intention during the present Session of Parliament to bring in a Bill to establish, after a fixed period, the use of metric weights and measures?
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE,in reply, said, that a Bill, if introduced by the Government, would not contain. provisions for the establishment of the system by way of compulsion, but would legalize its optional use in this country. The question, he might add, was one with regard to which there was considerable difference of opinion, and it would be premature at present to say whether he could bring in a Bill dealing with it this Session.

IRISH LAND ACT, 1870—THE 12TH CLAUSE.—QUESTION.
MR. M'MAHON (for Mr. M'CARTHY DOWNING)asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he is aware of steps having been taken by one of the largest Proprietors of Land in Ireland, to induce or coerce many of his tenants to enter into contracts in writing, by virtue of which they would not be entitled to make any claim for compensation under any provision of the "Irish Land Act of 1870;" and, whether he is aware that decisions have been made that a tenant who, after his tenancy had been determined by a notice to quit, entered into new terms pursuant to the proviso in the 18th Section, thereby forfeited all claim to the improvements made by him previously to the new tenancy; and, if so, whether it is the intention of the Government to apply to Parliament to amend the Act, by repealing the 12th Clause, and otherwise as may be necessary?
MR. GLADSTONE,in reply, said, that this was a question of some intricacy, and upon which a good deal depended with regard to the satisfactory working of a most important law, and he greatly regretted that the lion. Member for Cork (Mr. Downing) was not in his place to put the Question, because he would rather have said in his presence what he felt compelled to say in his absence respecting the former part of his Question. He was greatly indebted to the hon. Member for Cork for the manner in which he had exercised the influence he possessed at the time of the discussion on the passing of the Irish Land Act, and he also conceived that the Irish Members had contributed

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a great deal to the acceptance of that measure. But these circumstances made him regret very much that the hon. Member should consider the conduct of a particular landlord in Ireland, who was one of the most respected landlords in Ireland, a fitting subject for inquiry in that House. No one could think that the landlord in question had gone beyond either the letter or the spirit of the discretion which had been intrusted to him by the Act. He should have been loath to answer the question with regard to the Duke of Leinster had it not been that he had received from his son, Lord Kildare, by telegram, a short statement of the facts, which he thought he had better read to the House, with only one or two verbal changes, which he thought would make the matter more intelligible. It was as follows:—
"No tenant has been requested to sign a new agreement, except when the old one had expired or a new valuation was necessary. No tenant has been debarred from compensation where the holding was under £50 valuation; nor, in the case of large farms, has any tenant been excluded from compensation"—
that was to say, had been excluded from prospective compensation—
"under the new agreements for improvements made with the landlord's consent;"
the landlord's consent was prospectively required with regard to certain leases about to be made of holdings above £50 per annum.
"No tenant has been debarred from compensation where the holding was under £50 per annum for improvements effected before the signing of the new agreement, to which he would have been otherwise entitled, in the very few instances where such improvements have been made by the tenant."
And he might add, that he had been informed that upon the extensive property in question there were only about five or six cases where any comment had been made; and of those five or six cases, if he was rightly informed, and he ought to be rightly informed, all excepting one had concluded the new leases, and the other was still pending, not upon the question of the terms of the tenancy under the Act generally, but upon the question of the amount of the rent. So much for the particular circumstances of that case. With regard to the principle upon which the Act proceeded, he might remind the hon. Gentleman that in the discussions in that
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House on the Irish Land Act they had arrived at the conclusion that for many important questions the line ought to be drawn at £50 rental; that under £50 rental certain claims should exist, and that the tenant should not be permitted to contract himself out of the Act, because the House did not think that he had sufficient independence to enable him to contract fairly with his landlord. But above that line the House thought that the tenant was able to hold his own against his landlord. What had been done in the cases referred to by the hon. Member for Cork was within the letter and spirit of the Act. Then as regarded the second part of the hon. Member's Question, he did not think that it would be convenient for the House that he should enter into a discussion as to the exact nature and effect of the judgments that had been given. Suffice it to say that two views had been taken, and that the Act as it stood did not correspond with either extreme view. He believed he was right in saying that in "another place" an attempt had been made to amend the Act by introducing provisions to validate any contract whatever, irrespective of the nature and extent of the holding, to exclude all claims on the part of the tenants for compensation for disturbance. If he understood the view taken by his hon. Friend, he advocated, on the contrary, that whatever might be the nature of the holding, no man should be permitted to make a contract excluding his right to make a claim for compensation for disturbance. The Act did not concur with either of those extreme views. It drew a certain line, and there was no reason to believe that that line had worked unsatisfactorily; and therefore he could say very distinctly that it was not the intention of the Government, as at present advised, to apply to Parliament to amend the Act by repealing the 12th clause of the statute. It would be exceedingly mischievous if any doubts were to exist as to the intentions of the Government on the subject. The Government did not intend to propose themselves, nor would they regard favourably any proposal from others, for amending the Act in accordance either with the views of the hon. Member, or with those in an opposite sense which had been expressed elsewhere.

CENTRAL ASIA—BOUNDARIES OF THE AFGHAN STATES.—QUESTION.
SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, having regard to the political complications which have resulted from the adoption of unknown and undefined boundaries in the cases of Nova Scotia and Origon, he would take steps at once, in conjunction with the Governments of St. Petersburg and Cabul, formally to define the limits of the Afghan States by actual survey and examination; and to cause such survey to result in a map, and topographical description of the line, as it may be finally ascertained and agreed on, which may be referred to should difficulty arise at any future time?
MR. GLADSTONE: If there were likely to be any difficulty in the case to which the Question of the hon. and gallant Baronet refers—which, as at present advised, I do not believe—I am afraid that it would not be easy to bring about a joint triangular survey of the limits of the Afghan States, between Russia, England, and Cabul. But I will also point out to the hon. and gallant Baronet that really when we speak of Central Asia, and deal with land boundaries, it is hardly possible to expect that definitiveness of territorial limitation which we should be able to attain in civilized countries. I have heard the argument seriously urged, that where Abraham erected an altar it was perfect proof that he possessed landed property. But I do not think you can make an argument of that kind serve with respect to Central Asia. I should doubt very much whether, in the whole of Central Asia, the hon. and gallant Baronet could discover any accurately drawn land boundaries; and any attempt to do what is not agreeable to the usages and customs of the people would not be likely to succeed. So far as this case is concerned, we believe that the whole question for every practical purpose is settled by the fact that the boundary is a river boundary. What boundary that is, or whether it has been rightly or wrongly taken, is another matter, and one into which I cannot now enter; but that is the belief which we entertain, and consequently no difficulty whatever is likely to arise.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

ARMY—LENGTH OF SERVICE OF REGIMENTS IN INDIA.—RESOLUTION.
COLONEL BARTTELOTrose to call the attention of the House to the length of Service of Regiments in India, and to move, "That, in the opinion of this House, such service ought to be shortened." An appeal had been made to him on the part of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to forego the privilege of now addressing the House in order to allow the House to go into Committee of Supply so as to enable him to make his statement on the Army Estimates. He must remind the right hon. Gentleman that he (Colonel Barttelot) was but a very humble Member of the House, and was bound to conform himself to its Rules; whereas the right hon. Gentleman was at liberty to address it on all occasions. He thought he was perfectly justified, on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply, to bring forward what he believed to be a great and crying grievance. If this question did not involve the life and health of many of our soldiers in India —if it were merely a money question, or anything of that kind, he might well have deferred to the wishes of the right hon. Gentleman; but as the health and. well-being of our Army were concerned, he must say that he was the last person who would shrink from bringing forward their grievances. It might be in the recollection of many hon. Members that on the 13th instant he asked the right hon. Gentleman whether it was his intention to shorten the time of service of regiments in India in consequence of his short-service system. The answer was a very simple one—no; but that, whilst the rank and file were to have short service, it had been arranged with the Indian Government that the officers and non-commissioned officers should remain in India for 12 years. That was an extraordinary statement, because now the service was only 10 years in the Infantry, though it was true that in the Cavalry it was 12 years. Many of his friends understood the matter in a different way; they said

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that the Secretary for War was going to alter his proceedings in reference to short periods of enlistment, and that the men were to go to India for 12 years. He (Colonel Barttelot) said no, because such an arrangement would destroy the Reserve at home, because it would deprive it of nearly half the men who should have gone into it. He must take it that the men were to be relieved on the short-service system in India; and he should wish to make some observations in reference to the expense, and also to express his fear that the esprit de corps of the regiments would not be improved by the regulations made. He would further ask, could it be just that the officers and non-commissioned officers should remain in India for 12 years, whilst the men were only to serve there for six years? Lastly, he should have to advert to the consequences to the health and the lives of the troops serving in India. Now as to the expense. They all knew that the expense of conveying troops to and from India was very great; but he thought that he could show that under a system of shorter service this expense would not be greater. His (Colonel Barttelot's) proposition was that no regiment should serve in India longer than five years. We had now 62,965 men in India. It would take about 12,600 men per annum to relieve them in five years. He proposed that the right hon. Gentleman should alter for the Indian service the term of enlistment. Why should not men be enlisted in this country to serve for a certain period here first, and then go to India for five years with their regiments and return with their regiments? If we increased the men 10 per cent above the number required to go to India, there would be no occasion for reliefs to go to India while their regiment was there. They would naturally decrease while they were in India, and when they came home they would be able to go into the Army of Reserve. He had authority for saying that it would only take 12,600 men to relieve the Indian regiments, they serving there for only five years. He held in his hand a Return asked for by his late lamented Friend the Member for Liverpool (Mr. Graves), whose loss was regretted equally on both sides of the House. It was a Return of Navy Transports, which was ordered on the 23rd of May, 1871.
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A later Return had not yet been presented, although it was moved for in April last year. The Return which he held in his hand showed that in the year 1867–8 18,410 persons were conveyed to India and back; in 1868–9, 18,141; and in 1869–70, 25,439; making an average of more than 20,000 troops—including women and children—conveyed during the year. That would, anyone would say, be amply sufficient to relieve the Army in five years. He thought the expense of so relieving the Army would not be greater than it was under the present system. It must be recollected that we did not now sail round the Cape. We had the Suez Canal, and the expense of carrying troops to India was only £19 4s. per head, including officers, whilst for privates alone it was little more than £14 per head. His hon. Friend the late Member for Liverpool had said that the Mercantile Marine were prepared to do that service at a far less sum than the Government transports cost. In former times it used to be calculated that to take a man to India and place him there cost £50. Under the proposed system he would take the women and children at 1,400, instead of at the present figure of 3,000. If they sent out younger men, there would be fewer of them who would be married. It was the old soldiers, as a rule, who were married; and, as he had said, there would be fewer women and children, and anybody who had seen those classes of persons in India would think that a great advantage. There was a pamphlet which had been published by an hon. and gallant Officer who was also a distinguished soldier, who calculated by a five years' service in India they would save on conveyance of troops, in depots in this country, and under the head of women and children, and women's quarters in India, in all £314,600 per annum; and it seemed that the writer had rather understated than overstated the amount. His (Colonel Barttelot's) scheme for the relief of the regiments in India would effect a saving of £40,600 as compared with the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman. That he believed in no way overstated the case, so that there was a large margin to cover any additional expense which might be incurred by more frequent transports. But even if the short-service system advocated caused additional expense, that expense could

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not be placed in competition for one moment with the health and lives of the soldiers. It should not be forgotten, in considering this matter, that as men were enlisted sometimes at 17 and were not sent to India until they were 20, three years out of the six would be gone before their Indian service commenced. That being so, how often would troops have to be relieved in India under the present circumstances? The esprit de corps of the regiment would be fostered also by the system he proposed. Those having personal experience of the Army knew perfectly well what was meant by a regiment in good heart, a regiment whose officers knew their men and whose men knew their officers—a regiment prepared at all points, anxious to be led before the enemy, and inspired by a desire for distinction. Such regiments might be preserved if they went out bodily to India with all their officers and men intact, and remained there for five years. He would appeal to the Surveyor General of Ordnance (Sir Henry Storks) upon this point, for he, at least, knew what the value of esprit de corps was. How different would be the case of a regiment with its officers remaining out there for one period and the men for another, and the men being sent out in driblets to be absorbed there into the body which had already acquired the indolent habits which were consequent upon serving in a tropical climate. How preferable would it be for the whole body to go out together fresh for their work. In the first five years of a soldier's life in India he was far fitter to do his duty than he would be afterwards. It could hardly be said that it would be better either for officers or men to remain in India for a longer period than five years. The statistics showed clearly that the longer a man remained in India the worse it was for his health. Those diseases that permanently disabled a man did not come on suddenly, but they did come on as years passed by, and every year, after a certain time, was most detrimental to health. The writer of the pamphlet to which he had already referred said that under the present system the proportion of troops invalided was about 5 per cent per annum, whilst under the five years' system it was estimated that it would be only 3 per cent. Now, would it not be a great thing if they could save so large a percentage of
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men sent home invalided? The number of men saved by such a decrease would be 1,250 per annum, and surely that was worthy of their consideration. The death-rate the same writer fixed at 2 per cent, instead of 3¼. Would it not be worth while to try a system which there was good reason to believe would save 1 per cent of the lives of our soldiers in India, or 620 men per annum? Much sympathy was exhibited on the occasion of shipwrecks of any magnitude; but hero was a loss of life which was positively appalling when it was known that a change of system might prevent it, without causing any counterbalancing hardship, expense, or inconvenience. But the evil as regards the men was small when compared with the position of the officers. If five years' service was proved to be as much as an Englishman could stand in India without detriment to his health, what could be said of the case of the officers, who were bound to serve there for 12 years, while the men were in some cases able to return home in three, or, at the most, six years. The writer of the pamphlet from which he had quoted estimated that there would be a reduction of 22 per cent in the regiments upon short service, so that a regiment that went out 810 strong would return 624 strong, and this seemed to be a very fair estimate. He (Colonel Barttelot) doubted whether, under the present system, the regiments were ever so strong as that during their last year's service in India. The ill-effects of the long-service system were forcibly shown by some statistics respecting the stay of the 38th Regiment in India, which he would gladly place at the disposal of any hon. Members who desired to examine them more closely. In order to keep up the strength of the regiment no fewer than 73 officers were sent out to it between 1857 and 1871, when the regiment returned home. The strengths of the regiment in 1857 was 1,061, of whom 45 were officers. During the time it was in India the regiment was increased by 1,351. Between 1857 and 1871 it decreased by 1,781, and in the latter year embarked for England 647 men, 69 women, and 85 children. One officer and 78 men, or about 7 per cent of the number who went out, were all who left this country and returned with the regiment to England. This was a fair sample of what happened in other regiments,

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for he was recently told that the number of men who returned to England in the 3rd Battalion of the Rifle Brigade, which was absent for 15 years in India, would not average 7 per cent of the men who went out. As to the sanitary effect of the scheme he proposed, most people believed that young soldiers died off more quickly than older men in tropical climates. But the Army Medical Blue Book of 1870, confirmed as it was by other medical reports, showed that in India soldiers died at the following rates:—Under 20 years, less than 1 per cent; from 20 to 30 years, less than 2 per cent; from 30 to 35 years, 3 per cent; from 35 to 40 years, 4½ per cent; and over the age of 40, 7 per cent. Thus it seemed that the longer men remained in India the more liable they were to disease; that there was no advantage in keeping old soldiers in India; and that the average of health decreased every year, while mortality and invaliding increased. Now, if by the system he proposed—namely, the five years' system—the death-rate could be decreased by 1 per cent, and the invaliding by 2 per cent, they would certainly have done something not unworthy of the House of Commons. He knew there was a difficulty with the right hon. Gentleman opposite—one arising between the War Office and the India Office. That difficulty developed itself in redtapism, with which those establishments were eaten up. He hoped that they would soon see much less redtapism than at present existed in those Departments. He thought he had shown that his system would not cost more than that of the right hon. Gentleman; that the existing system was bad for the esprit de corps, and for the regimental system at home and abroad; that it was a gross injustice to officers and non-commissioned officers; and that on sanitary grounds they ought not to be kept in India one day longer than was necessary for the welfare of the country. He would appeal to those hon. Members below the gangway who came down there night after night for the purpose of abolishing flogging and branding in the Army, and he would ask them whether they would not also do something for those good soldiers who had served their country long and faithfully in the distant clime of India. He would appeal to those who had wives and children,
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and ask them whether they would like to keep those gallant men one day longer in a tropical climate than was absolutely necessary. He would appeal to the British House of Commons, and pray them to remember what that Army had done for this country, and he believed were prepared, if necessary, to do again for that very country of which they were just talking, to remember what the Army of the present day had done in the case of the Indian Mutiny. He would appeal, in fact, to all men who had the interest of the British soldier at heart, and he believed that that appeal he should not now make in vain. The hon. and gallant Member concluded by moving his Resolution.
CAPTAIN TALBOTrose to second the Motion of his hon. and gallant Friend. He divided the subject into three heads —cost, sanitary considerations, and efficiency; the last of which, he maintained, was of the greatest importance. He believed that if he could prove that the sanitary condition of the Army and its efficiency would be improved, that the House would not shrink from a greater cost; but it was his belief that a positive economy might be effected. He had moved for a Return which would show the strength of all regiments in India at the time of their departure for that country, and during every year to the present time; the number invalided year by year, and the draughts sent out to replace them. This Return would show that, in the latter half of the service of regiments in India, by far the greater proportion of invalids were sent home; and that year by year the numbers of invalids increased. The right hon. Gentleman had introduced a system of short enlistment; and he wished to know how that system would work with long service in India. But first, he wanted to know whether short enlistment was a reality or a sham; whether it was such a success in the promise of providing an adequate reserve—not a miserable 30,000 or 40,000 men, but numbers to fill up our battalions to a war strength, and keep them up to that strength in war—as to justify the deterioration in the quality of the soldier, which, with short service in the ranks, was more or less inevitable? If it did promise such success, and it was determined to carry out the system, how would it work with long service of regiments in India? With reliefs every 12

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years it might be necessary to renew a great portion of regiments three times in that period. A recruit enlisted at 18, but was not to be sent to India until 20; and, consequently, he had only four years out of his engagement to serve there. His place was filled by another recruit, and again at the end of the eighth year by a third. This, however, applied only to the rank and file. How about the non-commissioned officers and officers? That these latter should be called upon to serve in India for 12 years, while the rank and file were constantly changing, was manifestly wrong. He appealed to the House, not on behalf of the rich officers or of those in high positions, but of the poor men—the class of men that the Secretary of State had often expressed his wish to encourage to join and remain in the service—who could not afford to go to England on six months leave, or even to the Hills; but were compelled to swelter year after year in the plains. He knew of many such instances. The possibility of exchanging was much diminished, for men would not often exchange to India without some money compensation. There was another point to which lie felt bound to allude, however delicate the subject might be. The State was a gainer by the death of every officer—directly as regarded those who had purchased, indirectly as to those who had not bought their commissions—because deaths and invaliding made a flow of promotion, which otherwise would have to be stimulated by money retirements. Although no Government could be influenced by such a motive, it should be doubly careful that it could never be said that the State was careful to preserve the lives of those in whom it had interest—the soldiers—while it was not so careful of those by whose sickness or death it had to gain. But short enlistment was not universal in the Line, and did not exist in the Cavalry and Artillery. Cavalry did not have the benefit of hill stations; and he considered it a great hardship that their service in India had not only not been reduced, but actually increased from 10 to 12 years. Almost all authorities agreed in recommending short service, especially Lord Hardinge—than whom no one had greater experience: Sir Henry Durand, Sir David Wood, Lord Mayo—whose loss they felt day by day—advocated what seemed most
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feasible—relief by battalions instead of by draughts. That was the plan he (Captain Talbot) recommended—sending out battalions up to a full strength of 1,000 or even 1,200 men, and letting it decrease to, say, two-thirds of that number, and then relieving it by another battalion. He had only heard two objections—that they would have "young regiments" and unequal battalions. Young regiments! What had they now? What was the 65th Regiment, of which the right hon. Gentleman told the House two years ago that two-thirds of the men were under 20 years of age? As to unequal battalions, he maintained that if they were composed of men of under six years' service in India they would keep their average strength, under hardships and exposure, far more than would battalions composed of men of 10 or 12 years in India. That was what was required—not a mere nominal equality of strength, but a strength that could be relied upon when called to take the field. He would say nothing upon the reduction of expense in depôts, and in the very great saving by a reduction of women and children—his hon. and gallant Friend had touched on those points. But lie would say one word as to the expensive mode of conducting reliefs. The Transport Committee recommended the Government to rely "more and more upon the Mercantile Marine;" instead of which they had established a great and expensive system of relief by troop-ship. The cost per head was 19 each way; while by employing ships that carried freight the amount would be reduced by one-half. He admitted the value of having some troop-ships, and the great comfort to the men; but he doubted the expediency, on economical grounds, of conducting the whole system of relief by them. Local allowances might be reduced: he saw no reason why, if a short service only was required, they should be greater than in Ceylon or in other Eastern climates. So much for economical considerations; now for those of life and health. All medical authorities agreed that, as a general rule, the longer men stayed in India the greater was the deterioration in health and strength. The Royal Sanitary Commission of 1859 was not asked to consider the question of short service; but the evidence taken by it was conclusive as to its advisability. It reported that the mean time of service

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in India was 8·6 years—that 11 recruits were annually required for 100 men. The Report of the Commission of Organisation of the Army in India gave a Return showing that the rate of exhaustion was 10 per cent annually. In evidence before the Transport Committee, Colonel Gordon stated that men were practically changed twice in 10 years. There was testimony to the same effect by Sir David Wood, who advocated regimental reliefs quinquennially, who was satisfied that much of the present sickness and inefficiency in the Army was connected with a defective system of relief. But the annual Army Medical Report of 1870 gave figures that were quite conclusive to his mind. In the 10 years, 1860–69, the admissions to hospital were 1,591 per 1,000; constantly non-effective, 62 per 1,000; deaths, 27 per 1,000; discharged as invalids, 18 per 1,000; total deaths and discharged as invalids, 45 per 1,000. In healthy districts in England among men of soldiers' ages the death-rate was 8 per 1,000—in unhealthy trades and districts, 12 per 1,000. There was a table showing the ratio of deaths to age in India—Under 20 years of age, 8 per 1,000; under 25, 17 per 1,000; under 30, 19 per 1,000; under 35, 30 per 1,000; under 40, 44 per 1,000; under 45, 68 per 1,000. It was admitted that the effect of climate was far greater upon men dispirited and discouraged, which was often the case, who looked forward to years in India with the knowledge that they could not get home except as invalids—engendering a wish, which was often father to the disease, that they might become invalids. Then he arrived at the most important point—the effect upon the efficiency of the Army. This long service in India had a deterrent effect in obtaining recruits —it prevented men reenlisting. It induced all who could get the money to purchase their discharge. It was a cause of much desertion. A few years ago, when a distinguished regiment was under orders for India—a regiment second to none in esprit de corps and in devotion to its colonel—every man approaching the completion of his first engagement, and others, who applied to purchase their discharge, were appealed to by the colonel not to leave the regiment. With hardly an exception they refused; stating that they would have been glad to go out with the regiment for a few years, but the
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prospect of 10 years—which would complete their total service in the Army—was too much for them. Was that conducive to the efficiency or popularity of the service? It was impossible to deny that a regiment arriving in India with the knowledge that in six years it would be at home again—not as driblets of invalids, but as they went out—a regiment—would be in a far more satisfactory condition than one depressed with the knowledge that one by one—as invalids or time-expired men—they were to come home; and that at the end of the service the regiment would hardly have a man who went out with it. What was the encouragement to officers or non-commissioned officers to keep up the drill, discipline, and appearance to the high standard expected and obtained in England? The appearance and condition of regiments on their return proved this—they required years often to recover from the habits contracted in, and inseparable from, a military life in the tropics. The late Sir James Graham, in one of the last public acts of his life, expressed his opinion before the Transport Committee—
"That it was a military question of the greatest importance: though, of course, the more frequent the reliefs, relatively may be the expense: but as regards the morale and efficiency of the British Army, I am persuaded that these regimental reliefs must be frequent."
Sir David Wood, in evidence before the same Committee, observed a remarkable contrast between draughts and entire battalions. The former invariably arrived at Allahabad—where he was Commandant during and after the Mutiny—disorganised and sickly; and many were soon sent back to the hospitals. On the other hand, battalions arrived, for the most part, in good health and discipline, went to the front, and. their men were not seen again. He admitted the difficulty of arranging a new system of reliefs, which must be done gradually; and he also acknowledged the great benefits and. reforms that had been effected in the condition of the soldier, especially with regard to hill sanitaria; but a great deal remained to be done. Some might say that this was not a question for the House of Commons, but it was so of all others; for, while every consideration pointed to the advisability of shortened service, the authorities were afraid to recommend it on the score of expense. It required pressure

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from the House of Commons. If the right hon. Gentleman thought the evidence incomplete, let him give a Committee or a Royal Commission. No inquiry had been made for years, and evidence accumulated year by year. While they indulged in the luxury of somewhat romantic philanthropy all over the world, from Fiji to Zanzibar, it did seem somewhat inconsistent that they annually sacrificed perhaps double the number of lives that were necessary. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would give a satisfactory reply to the case made by his hon. and gallant Friend; but, if not, he should not cease to urge this subject upon the attention of the House—not in any spirit of obstinacy, but from a firm conviction that the course of policy he had pointed out was one founded upon principles of humanity and expediency, tending alike to the efficiency of the Army, and to the advantage of the nation.
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, the term of Service of Regiments in India ought to be shortened," —(Colonel Berttelot,)
—instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
MR. CARDWELL: It is quite true that I assured the hon. and gallant Member who introduced this subject that he would have an equally good opportunity of bringing it forward on another occasion; but it was not for the convenience of myself, but because thought the whole House would be desirous of proceeding at once to the statement of the Army Estimates and the consideration of the general question. The hon. and gallant Member may rest assured that lie does not differ from Her Majesty's Government in his estimate of this question as far as it is a question of the health, life, and comfort of the soldier. He has stated very justly that that ought to be the governing and principal consideration. The hon. and gallant Member stated, if I understood him correctly, that the mortality at present in India is 31 per cent, and that he proposes a plan by which he will reduce it to 2 per cent. Well, if I can show the hon. and gallant Member by the latest Returns I have received that he is
850
entirely mistaken in his facts—that the mortality has been less than 2½ per cent during the last 10 years, and that during the last year of which I have any record it has been less than 2 per cent—less than the amount to which he proposes to reduce it—then I hope he will not be disinclined to admit that his sheet-anchor has failed him, and that the great argument—one I shall certainly never dispute—from the mortality of the troops has entirely failed him. Sir, I hold in my hand a Return, which was signed by the Director General of the Army Medical Department on Saturday. It is headed— "Table showing the sickness, mortality, and invaliding per 1,000 of mean strength of the European troops serving in India during the ten years, 1862–71"—a period later than the statistics to which the hon. and gallant Member referred. The year 1872 was an exceptional year, when the high ratio of deaths compared with that of 1871 was the result of epidemic cholera in Bengal, which in the ten months, January to October, caused 529 out of 860 deaths reported. But the table I hold in my hand says that there died, per 1,000 of mean strength, upon the average of 10 years—1862–1871–24·44, which the House will perceive is less than 2½ per cent, and in last year—for the tendency is rather to improve—in 1871, the ratio was 18·73—that is less than 2 per cent, the amount to which the hon. and gallant Member proposes to reduce it. I have not yet the Returns for 1872. I have said that I believe if I had they would be disturbed by an epidemic; but I quote the last Returns in my possession. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who seconded the Motion (Captain Talbot) discussed a little the Purchase question, and also the question of the Army Reserves. I hope he will not consider it discourteous on my part if I now decline to follow him, being anxious that the House should go with as little delay as possible into Committee on the Estimates, when I shall have an opportunity of answering the question the hon. and gallant Member has put as to the Reserves. The hon. and gallant Member who introduced the Motion put the case of the 38th Regiment, which, he said, had been 14 years in India. [Colonel BARTTELOT: More than 14 years.] Well, then, in fixing 12 as the future period for the residuum of the head quarters in India,

851
I am introducing no innovation. The hon. and gallant Member referred to statistics of the sickness and mortality of the Army in India, and he dwelt upon what he called the excessive expense of the troopships. Now, it was evident that if a large proportion of the men were sent home, a smaller proportion would remain in India with the head quarters. What had been actually the case in this respect? The Director General says—
"The table shows a marked increase in the proportions of men sent home as invalids from India during the last eight years compared with the previous periods, but unaccompanied by any increase in the proportion discharged the service, after their arrival in England. The increase has arisen from the greater facilities afforded for sending men home by the troopships, and the result of it has been the saving of many men to the service who would otherwise have probably died. The proportion sent home has been one-third more than formerly. The proportion finally discharged has been rather under that of previous periods if 1870 be omitted, when it was increased by the results of the epidemic fever in the 21st Regiment at Kurrachee. The improvement in the health of the Army may be estimated from the following comparison of the sickness and mortality of the European troops (exclusive of those in the service of the Honourable East India Company) from 1838 to 1856 inclusive, with that of the period 1862–71. From 1838 to 1856, the ratio per 1,000 of mean strength admitted into hospital was 1,991, while there died, exclusive of those killed in action, 66·90. From 1862 to 1871 the ratio per 1,000 was 151·24, and the death-rate, exclusive of those killed in action, was 24·44."
It is not true, then, that by any arrangement we have made we have increased the mortality in the Army. The truth is all the arrangements have tended exactly in the opposite direction. What have those arrangements been? In the first place, we have introduced short service; and, in the second place, we have introduced the system of linking battalions together, in order that some might serve in India and some at home. I shall, when the House is in Committee, have the opportunity of explaining the system under which officers appointed in future would be enabled to exchange without losing their places on the rota. There is no sort of difficulty in finding officers to go to India, for the service is a popular one. The effect will be this—An officer is no longer obliged to leave the service if unfit to serve in India; but he returns home, takes his place in the sister battalion for which he might very well be competent; while another takes
852
his place in India to whom service there is agreeable. By this self-acting process the climate suits itself to the constitution of the individual. In addition to this reduction in the sickness and mortality, there has been a great reduction in the proportion constantly non-effective from sickness. This was shown in the Report of the Royal Commission on the sanitary state of the Army in India to have been 84 per 1,000 of the strength prior to 1860, while in 1870 it was only 58 per 1,000. The House must not be led away by the notion that this is a question of long or short service in India. It is a question, not of length of service of men, but simply of the head quarters of the regiment. I put it to the House whether I have left the hon. and gallant Gentleman's statistics standing, or have overthrown them? If I have overthrown them as regards health, how can he expect me to go through those statistics of finance which he read from the same pamphlet? I do not know who was the author of the pamphlet, and I decline to accept those statements at demand. These are questions of Indian finance, which do not fall under my administration. All I can say is, if the hon. and. gallant Gentleman will convince either the India Office or the Committee of this House which is about to discuss Indian military expenditure that his statistics are accurate, they will be very happy to accept and act upon them. As far as the Government is concerned, we have arranged with the India Office that the head quarters of a regiment shall remain in India 12 years; that the men who have enlisted for a short service will never, unless they choose, serve more than six years, and that the officers will have an opportunity of exchanging, and no difficulty in so doing. The non-commissioned officers and men will have the opportunity of volunteering for another term of service. I submit that I have answered the hon. and gallant Gentleman as far as health is concerned; and I venture to differ altogether from his statements on finance, which, however, he will have an opportunity of substantiating. I have shown that, instead of lengthening the continuance even of the head quarters of regiments, we have reduced and made certain that which was uncertain. I have in my hand statements showing that regiments have remained upwards of 17 years. We have reduced

853
it to a fixed system, by which the head quarters will be regularly relieved at the end of 12 years, and by which neither officers nor men will be compelled to continue for any period injurious to their health and strength.
COLONEL STUART KNOXsaid, the Secretary of State for War had wished to put aside the Motion of his hon. and gallant Friend in order that the House should have an opportunity of hearing the official statement with regard to the Army Estimates; but surely the life and health of the officers and men who served in India were matters of equal, if not of more importance than the statement referred to. Now, he had himself served in India, and had seen some officers and men sicken and die, while others who could afford to pay for exchanges were able to return home. It was absurd to say that exchanges could still be made as heretofore. Neither the Controller General nor himself would ever have gone to a bad climate if they could have helped it. It was unjust to send to India for 12 years officers who had paid for their commissions. It was true that under the old system a regiment sometimes in the interests of the country remained 15 or 20 years; but this did not rebut the general rule that infantry regiments stayed 10 and cavalry 12 years. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman, who had unintentionally made the officers suffer sufficiently in other ways by his arrangements, would reconsider the question before he practically lengthened the term of service in India.
COLONEL GILPINmaintained that the right hon. Gentleman had failed to show the compatibility of short enlistment, and an Army of Reserve with long service abroad. He was anxious for a strong Reserve; but a third of the Army would be in India, and on the long-service system he would lose a third of his Reserves. He was always adverse to the short-service system, because he did not believe that a sufficient number of men could be obtained in order to efficiently carry it out. The Police Gazette would lead to the inference that, though recruits were obtained, they could not keep the men, in consequence of desertions being so numerous. They were told that recruits not only came in, but that they found their depôts without the escort of the sergeant; but,
854
in reality, they had not done so. Men would not devote the best years of their life to the Army unless with a retiring allowance to look forward to, and it was this which under the old system induced men to serve 20 years in India.
COLONEL CORBETTquestioned the advantage of keeping head quarters stationary, which were numerically small, and of letting the bulk of the men move. Unless the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War could show that the mortality and sickness of the troops could not be reduced, his hon. and gallant Friend's (Colonel Barttelot's) statistics would practically pass uncontradicted. He was at a loss to understand how, with the short service of the men, they could carry out with advantage the long-service period of the regiment. He did not see how with affiliated battalions the system could work otherwise than awkward; because if both were abroad, the system adopted for keeping up the strength must be broken through. His hon. and gallant Friend deserved great credit for bringing the subject forward.
GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURsaid, he wished to keep distinct the question of the officers and that of the men. With the latter Indian service had always been exceedingly popular. The Royal Commission of 1859 distinctly reported that the Artillery and Indian services were very popular, and the Commission of 1866, of which he was a Member, also reported that recruits for India could always be obtained. While during the Crimean War the force for that service could never be raised above two-thirds of the establishment, yet during the Indian Mutiny men flocked to the regiments, raising the force in a very short time to the full complement. The House should remember that no regiment is ever ordered home from India without the men being called upon to volunteer to remain behind, and it was notorious that from one-third to one-half of the soldiers invariably offered to do so. The service, in fact, was popular, because nowhere were private soldiers better cared for than they were in India. Among other things, they had splendid barracks, which had been built at an expense of not less than from £250 to £400 per head. It was but just to acknowledge that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War,

855
having reduced the number of companies in India from 520 to 400, and the number of troops of cavalry from 77 to 54, thus enabling nearly 500 officers to come home, had done essential service to both officers and soldiers, as well as to the finances.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, as this was a most important question, affecting the welfare and efficiency of the British Army, he could not be surprised that his hon. and gallant Friend should have felt a desire to bring it before the House in a separate and distinct form, rather than have it mixed up with the general statement about to be made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War. The subject was so mixed up with the question of short service, and, above all, with the new question of linked battalions—as to which he looked forward with interest to the statements about to be made by the right hon. Gentleman—that he hoped his hon. and gallant Friend would not think it necessary to divide the House on his Motion. However desirous they all were of hearing the statement of the Minister for War, he could not but think that his hon. and gallant Friend deserved credit for bringing the subject involved in his Motion under the consideration of the House.
COLONEL BARTTELOT,after the appeal from his right hon. Friend, said, he would consent to withdraw his Motion; but on the understanding that he would bring the question on again should the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War not be satisfactory as to the linked battalions, and other matters.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.

  SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  MR. CARDWELL: Sir, the gracious Speech from the Throne has already informed the Committee that the Estimates which, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, it is now my duty to submit to you have been
  856
  "Framed with a view to the efficiency and moderation of our establishments, under circumstances of inconvenience entailed by variations of an exceptional nature in the prices of some important commodities."
  I hope I shall be able to show you that these Estimates have been prepared in such a manner as to secure that efficiency and moderation, and I am sure I shall show you that we have incurred considerable difficulty owing to abnormal fluctuations in the prices of important stores. Sir, the total amount of the present Estimate is £14,416,400. The saving upon the Estimates of last year is £408,100 to be added to the saving on those of the previous year of £1,027,000. But, Sir, in making this comparative statement of expenditure, I wish to prefer a claim to be allowed to add, in reference to the saving I have already mentioned, this consideration—namely, that my right hon. and gallant Friend who sits beside me (Sir Henry Storks) has been compelled to include in the Estimates which have been prepared under his immediate control a sum of no less than £400,000 on account of the fluctuations in the prices of fuel, provisions, and clothing, and various other articles for which he has undertaken to provide. That does not include the additional cost which may fairly be charged upon the Vote for Works and Buildings. That is not quite so easy to estimate; but the estimate given to me is £50,000. The Committee will observe, therefore, that the amount which might have been saved if prices had remained in their normal condition —had we had to deal with them under the circumstances which existed two years ago—would have been double that which is stated on the face of the Estimates. These, however, may be but occasional charges, and future years may bring us back to the ordinary state of prices. But in the course of what I shall have to lay before you, it will be my duty to propose a sum of £55,000, which will be in the nature of an advantage to the soldier in the arrangement of his pay, and that, if you provide it, will be a permanent charge. My right hon. Friend at the head of the Government stated the other evening that he believed the saving in the Estimates for the two great services—the Navy and the Army—would amount to £500,000 sterling. My right hon. Friend was within the

  857
  mark. I do not know, of course, what the effect upon the Navy may have been; but I have shown you a sum equal to that stated by my right hon. Friend in this Estimate alone which it is my duty to introduce to the Committee. If you admit that the claim I have made is just, and if, in making a comparison with former years, you permit me to add those sums to the other savings I have mentioned, then we ought to have credit for retrenchment to the amount of £1,940,000 in the two years, or, in round numbers, of £2,000,000. I hope, Sir, that will satisfy those who are most desirous of retrenchment of expenditure, that those Estimates have not been prepared without a careful regard for that important object.
  I now wish to make a comparison with a year which I believe was the lowest in point of expenditure of any year since the Crimean War—namely, the first year in which I had the honour of holding my present office. I have before me a statement of what turned out to be the ultimate net expenditure of that year, and it was a peculiar one; because, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kincardine (Sir George Balfour) knows, there were many and important questions before us at that period which could not be settled owing to the anomalous state of invention at that time in respect of the armaments on which our Army depends. The total net expenditure was £11, 972,100—omitting, of course, arrears of Abyssinian expenditure—and the net expenditure in the Estimates I have now to lay before you is £13,231,400, leaving, in round numbers, a difference of £1,250,000. I have already accounted for £500,000 by the rise in the scale of prices, which it was impossible to foresee or avoid; and with regard to the £750,000, that amount has been more than absorbed in those additions which have been made to the more highly trained and costly services—the Artillery, Cavalry, and Engineers, and to the Militia—which I think I may say the whole House and the whole country insisted should be placed in a condition of adequate efficiency. Such is a comparison of the Estimates I now lay before the Committee with those of that year, which I believe was the lowest in point of expenditure of any which has occurred since the Crimean War. But you must bear in mind that to compare an
  858
  Estimate with the actual amount expended is a very disadvantageous comparison; for in every year which has happened since I have had the honour of being in office the actual expenditure has fallen considerably short of the Estimate which was laid on the Table.
  Now, Sir, an hon. Friend of mine (Mr. W. Fowler) has given Notice of a Motion to reduce the number of men proposed by Her Majesty's Government by 10,000. I am glad to see my hon. Friend in his place, as I very much doubt whether he clearly understands what that reduction would actually mean. In consequence of the new arrangement with respect to the brigades at home, it has been necessary to state upon the first page of the Estimates, as belonging to the Army, 3,964 officers, non-commissioned officers, and men, to be added as the brigade depots are completed. I do not know whether my hon. Friend has seen a note which occurs at the end of the next page, and which says that as those officers and non-commissioned officers—of which latter there were to be 3,170—were gradually added, a reduction would be effected in the permanent Staff of the Militia and Auxiliary Forces more than sufficient to compensate for the increase. I understand my hon. Friend to-night intends to move the reduction of our forces on account of the 20,000 men added to our Army on the outbreak of the German War. Now, I will proceed to state to my hon. Friend how that matter stands. If my hon. Friend will refer to the Estimates of last year as well as to these he will find that since the addition of those 20,000 men was made the British establishment proper has been reduced by 8,989 men, the colonial establishment by 1,102, and that two Madras regiments which were at that time voted upon our Estimates and were employed in China, Japan, and the Straits Settlements, numbering 1,760 men, have since been returned to India. Therefore, out of the addition of 20,000 men there remain now but 8,179, and that number is more than accounted for by the addition which the House and the country thought proper to make to the Artillery, the Engineers, the Cavalry, the Army Service Corps, and the Army Hospital Corps. In making re-arrangements of the service the principle has been to retain all those forces which require long preparation,

  859
  and for which Reserves are not prepared, and to reduce those which need less preparation, and for which Reserves are actually prepared. Accordingly the Guards, which on the outbreak of the German War were raised to 850 rank and file, we have now reduced to 750, the number at which they stood before. The 70 infantry battalions at home have been reduced to 520 rank and file, with the exception of the 10 first ordered for foreign service. Those in the colonies or garrisons abroad are reduced to 600, except in China, the Straits Settlements, Ceylon, the Cape, and the West Indies, which remain at 820 rank and file. Such are the arrangements with regard to the Army at home and abroad.
  Now, I have been asked this evening about the state of our Reserves, and upon this subject there appears to be some confusion. Some people seem to suppose that the reserve of men enlisted for short service is already in existence; but short service was only introduced in 1870, and it was for six years. Consequently, that system will not begin to come into operation by adding men to the Reserve till 1876. Having, however, said that, let me say that the Army Reserve, which was very small four years ago, has been raised in the meantime by various other methods to 7,393 men, while the Militia Reserves at the last training amounted to 31,522 men, making a total of men liable to service at home or abroad of 38,915. I mention this to show that if we have reduced our battalions it cannot be charged against us that we have not adequate Reserves should emergencies arise. In addition to these we have 23,804 second-class Reserve men and pensioners, and all these three classes are independent of the provision which we have made for the continuous outflow of men from the ranks to the Reserve in future years. Of men in the latter class we have over 18,000 in the battalions. Considering, therefore, that the strength not of our rank and file, but of our regular establishment of all arms and ranks, is only 125,000—considering the manifold duties we have to perform and the obligations we are under to our colonies, I think I may confidently appeal to my hon. Friend not to press the Amendment of which he has given Notice. That being the number of our Regular forces, the Estimates provide besides for
  860
  129,000 Militia, 13,000 Yeomanry, 160,750 Volunteers, 10,000 Army Reserve, 25,000 Second Army Reserve, making a total of 462,750, of whom there are at home, in the regimental establishments available for service, 436,838. Now, what are the means of obtaining the men whom we are to train for these forces? [Cheers.] Those cheers of suspicion and distrust I shall at once proceed to meet to the best of my ability. A great deal has been said upon the subjects of recruiting and desertion. I will simply and plainly lay before the Committee the actual state of the case. The question of a Reserve must always depend upon the strength of the establishment maintained, and the rapidity with which you pass your men through the various services into the Reserve. It is very desirable we should first know the number of recruits it is in our power to obtain, because if we exceed that number it follows that we shall be disappointed in the practical result of our calculations. Now, 23,000 recruits a year will maintain our establishment at the strength presented in our Estimates, and at the same time give us the Reserves we require, if passed in proper proportion through terms of long and short service. The actual state of things is this:—In 1870 we obtained rather more than 23,000 recruits. In the following year we had 23,165, and in 1872 the number fell to 17,371, and the suspicion and distrust were certainly in some degree justified, because that was 1,408 below the casualties of the year. Different people will judge of that differently. Those who hear me all know what was the disturbance of the labour market in the year just expired, and if they supposed that it would have no effect on the recruiting market they were more sanguine than the circumstances justified. The actual result was that during certain months of the year recruiting was very much interfered with, but that towards the closing months exactly the opposite was the case. These things depend on great economical considerations which affect the labour market. During the three last months in 1872 there were 5,146 recruits, as against 4,543 in the previous year, when recruiting was brisk; and in the last month, January, we obtained 2,004 recruits, being the largest number obtained since March, 1871. So that, although there are some

  861
  discouraging circumstances, yet the experience of the later months of the year led to more gratifying conclusions. In the present month of February we did not press forward recruiting, because our establishments were 4,235 in excess of the number we now ask you to provide for in the Estimates, and there is, you see, no difficulty at present in keeping up our strength. Well, you will ask what is the quality—the physique—of your troops? [Colonel NORTH: Hear, hear!] My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oxfordshire is one of those who think that this quality is not good. [Colonel NORTH: Hear, hear!] I should have thought that after what has passed during the last two years he would have changed his opinion on that subject. I have laid on the Table—and it will be in the hands of Members, I hope, to-morrow—the Report of the Inspector General of the Recruiting Department. You will find in that Report that the number of recruits who failed on trial last year was less than 14 per 1,000, which, in his opinion, is remarkably small, and shows that great attention is paid to the medical examination of recruits. You will also find that the commanding officers in almost all cases approved the recruits sent to them. The principal medical officers, after the usual monthly examinations, generally expressed the same opinion, and reported favourably; and if those recruits are to be tested by the appearance they presented in the Military Manoeuvres of last autumn, a person must be fastidious indeed who was not satisfied with every branch of the British Army on that occasion. But then it is said that many of the recruits deserted before they joined their regiments. If hon. Members read this Report they will find that whereas the Royal Commission of 1860 stated that in 1859 5,000 recruits deserted before joining their regiments, the number in 1872 was less than 800. It is very much to be regretted that there should be 800 desertions, but that is a considerable improvement over 1859. When it is also recollected that recruits are no longer sent by escort to their regiments, that a railway ticket is given to them, and that they are left to find their own way unattended to their regiments, the Committee will, I think, be of opinion that there has been no such great deterioration since the year 1859. But then
  862
  everyone is very much alarmed at the dismal accounts given of recent desertions. Far be it from me to extenuate the evil, or to represent that it is not discreditable. There has been, no doubt, a considerable percentage of desertions; but there is no reason for exaggerating the amount. Whether there are fewer desertions in our Army than in the Army of any other country, looking to our institutions and the freedom we enjoy, is a matter on which I shall give no opinion. You must judge for yourselves; but I will state what I believe to be an accurate account of recent desertions. I have seen it stated that the number of desertions has been greater than on any former occasion, and that the proportion of deserters to recruits has been greatly on the increase. The number is certainly to be regretted. In 1872 the desertions were 5,861; but the number who rejoined was 1,855, leaving a balance of 4,006. That is a large number it is true, but far short of the alleged number of 8,000. Neither is the mode of stating the number of desertions by the proportion of recruits anything but the most fallacious of rules. I believe the real truth to be that when a great excitement breaks out there is a great disposition to enlist, and that when the excitement subsides, not only is there no disposition to enlist, but there is a disposition to desert. Whenever there is a sudden and great increase in the Army by enlistment, there will be after an interval a corresponding amount of desertions. In the last months of 1870 and in the earliest months of 1871 there were raised in eight months about 30,000 recruits. The consequence has been that in 1871 the desertions were chiefly, and in the greatest proportion, among the soldiers under one year's service. In 1872 the greatest proportion were under two years' service. The conclusion I venture to lay down is that the greater number of desertions take place in the regiments having the largest number of recruits and within a short time after any great and abnormal enlistment. In almost all cases those regiments which had the greatest number of enlistments had also the greatest number of desertions. If you look to the last occasions, when there were sudden and great increases in the Army—namely, the periods of the Crimean War and the Indian Mutiny—it will be found that at first there was a

  863
  great number of enlistments, and that at a later period there was a great number of desertions. According to the rule I have seen laid down, in 1859 the desertions were 22 per cent to the recruit; in 1860, 19 per cent; in 1861, 41 per cent; and in 1862 exactly the same as in 1872—namely, 32 per cent. What I say is, that this rule of proportion is a misleading guide, and the true rule is that when you have an extraordinary addition to the Army, if zeal begins to cool, and if it falls out that there is at the same time an extraordinary demand for labour at high wages, there will be a great proportion of desertions, and more particularly in regiments which are quartered in districts whore labour is especially in demand and wages are extraordinarily high.
  I will now explain what has been done in regard to the Militia. The whole number of Militia taken is 129,000 men. That is 10,000 short of the full number that it is proposed ultimately to raise. Considering that the Irish Militia has been allowed to fall so very far short of its number when it was not called out, and considering the great demand for labour in England, we may congratulate ourselves that in 1872 30,154 recruits were enrolled in the Militia, and that no less than 4,392 men were furnished to the Army and Marines by the Militia. We have resorted, as the Committee are aware, to a much longer training of recruits for the Militia. The Inspector General assures me in his Reports that they show a very decided improvement. The Committee are also aware that three years ago we introduced the practice of encouraging Militia officers to join the Regular forces and go to Military Schools for the purpose of improving their drill. The Inspector General tells me that the number of officers who have done so is now 630, of whom he says 432 went to these schools in the year 1872. He also informs me the result is that the officers show an increased interest in their duties; that increased confidence is felt by the officers themselves, and inspired by them in those whom they command, and that several officers who were reported incompetent have been requested to send in their resignations. We have done our best to carry into effect the policy which the Committee has always approved, and for which brigade depots are to be instituted,
  864
  and have done away, as far as was in our power, with the practice of billeting. Indeed, of the whole Militia force in the United Kingdom only 19,251 have been billeted during the year. A great stimulus has been given to Militia officers by offering them commissions in the Army, the result being that whereas on the 1st of January, 1871, there were only 849 subalterns in the Militia, the number rose to 1,303 on the 1st of January, 1873. Perhaps the Committee will here permit me to refer to the appearance of the Militia at the Autumn Manœuvres at Salisbury. So much was said to me—and with so much warmth—by distinguished foreign officers about the appearance of the Militia on that occasion, that I think I should be wanting in my duty if I attributed it merely to courtesy or politeness, or if I failed to convey their opinion to the House. I have laid upon the Table the Report of His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief, in which you will find these words—
  "The regiments of Militia that were out at these Manœuvres were composed of very fine bodies of men. They were county regiments from the three portions of the United Kingdom, and they looked well, and performed their duty admirably as far as it could be expected from the shortness of their training. At the same time, there is much required to perfect the Militia; but this, as many other improvements, can only be acquired after time and experience, which is now being gained annually."
  I need not say much about the Yeomanry, because the improvement which has been effected in that force since the Regulations of 1870 were issued, has, I believe, been already admitted by the Committee. What I have to say of them now is that under the new arrangement they will be placed under the command of lieutenant-colonels of the regular cavalry force, and from that arrangement, coupled with the increasing disposition of the force to act as mounted rifles and practice the now mode of mounted warfare, the Inspector General expects the greatest benefit. At the Military Manœuvres we called out 204 of the Army Reserve. We have not considered it necessary as yet —nor, indeed, have we very well been able—to train the Army Reserve in a regular manner, because local arrangements are required before that can be done. But a small body of the Army Reserve were called out to attend the

  865
  Military Manœuvres, and their behaviour is thus spoken of by the Commander-in-Chief in the Report which I have laid upon the Table of the House—
  "A small proportion of Army Reserve men were called upon to volunteer to supplement some of the regiments on a low establishment. Nothing could exceed the soldierlike bearing and good conduct of these men. On future occasions I should like to see a larger number, if possible, brought into the field. It is valuable to keep up the efficiency of the men by a short continuous course of training, and it is of great advantage to increase the weaker battalions by so acceptable an addition of trained soldiers. In the course of time it is to be hoped that a large number of Army Reserve men may be induced annually to join for the period of the Manœuvres."
  Now I come to the Volunteers, and I do not know whether the statistics I shall read about them will be deemed encouraging or not; but the facts are these:—Iii the year just expired there was a reduction in the enrolled Volunteers of 14,434; in the efficient Volunteers of 11,989; and in the extra efficients of 4,242, as compared with the previous year 1871. The proportion of non-efficients to the general force was 30 per cent in 1863; 10 per cent in 1871; and only 9 per cent in 1872. The proportion of non-extra-efficients was 65 per cent in 1863; 24 per cent in 1871; and in 1872 it was only 21 per cent. As the Committee is aware, the certificate of the proficiency of officers did not exist in 1863—it was instituted in 1870, and in 1871 no fewer than 10,638 officers and non-commissioned officers in the Volunteer force had obtained certificates of proficiency, and had earned increased capitation grants for their respective corps. In 1872 the number had increased to 11,580. I think the Committee will agree with me that the falling off in the number of the Volunteers is more than compensated by these proofs of efficiency. The inspections have been carefully conducted, and I am informed that both officers and men have been fairly tested, and that much the larger proportion of them are in a satisfactory state. When it has been otherwise, defects have been pointed out, and some officers have been called upon to resign. The Camps of Instruction were new in 1870, and the number trained at them in that year was 10,492. In 1871 the number had increased to 12,936, and in 1872 it had again risen to 16,300. Of the Volunteers, 3,400 were out at
  866
  the Autumn Manœuvres, and of these 1,800 were there for the whole of the 12 days; and I may say, without fear of contradiction, that their conduct and appearance attracted the commendation of every soldier who witnessed them. The Camp of Artillery Volunteers at Shoeburyness has elicited the most favourable notice, and as a Report on the subject has lately been laid on the Table, I need not further refer to it. I wish to say, in passing away from the subject of the Volunteers, that the new and stricter rules which the Committee supported the Government in prescribing last year, have been favourably accepted by that body. No doubt the Volunteers have diminished in number; but they have improved in efficiency. In applying the new rules to the Volunteers, we have done for that force what the vine-dresser does for the vine—
  "Inutilesque falce ramos amputans Feliciores inserit."
  I believe that by increasing the efficiency of the regulations you are laying the foundation for an ultimate increase in the number of the Volunteers; because I do not think it an attribute of the English character that it will go through all the privation and trouble which that gallant body has done for so many years, to their own honour and the advantage of the country, without wishing to approximate gradually to the efficiency of the Regular Army.
  I trust the Committee will bear with me while I state what will be the result of that scheme of localization which met with your favour in the last Session of Parliament. In the first place, let us bear in mind the principle on which that scheme was founded. It was founded on the principle that, in the words of Mr. Pitt, in 1803—
  "The Army must be the rallying point. The Army must furnish example, must afford instruction, must give us the principles on which that national system of defence must be formed, and by which the Volunteer forces of this country, though in a military view inferior to a regular army, would, fighting on their own soil for everything dear to individuals and important to a State, be invincible."
  The Act was passed on the 10th of August, 1872, and I have now laid on the Table the final Report of General MacDougall's Committee containing the whole of the scheme, complete in its

  867
  general arrangements founded on the county organization. In England, there will be 50 infantry districts, in Scotland 8, and in Ireland 8, making 66 altogether. Of artillery districts, there will be eight in England, two in Scotland, and two in Ireland. In Great Britain—for there are no Yeomanry or mounted Volunteers in Ireland—there will be two cavalry districts. The composition of the brigade of an infantry sub-district will be, as a rule, two Line battalions, two Militia battalions, a brigade depôt, the Rifle Volunteer Corps, and the infantry of the Army Reserve. Of the two Line battalions, one will usually be abroad; the other at some one of the home stations. In the eight Irish sub-districts three or more Militia battalions will be associated with the two Line battalions of any sub-district, according to the number of counties composing the same. The composition of an Artillery sub-district will be—the Royal Artillery brigades and batteries therein stationed, and, under the Artillery colonel, Artillery Militia regiments, Artillery Volunteer Corps, and Artillerymen of the Army Reserve. The composition of a Cavalry district will be—the Cavalry regiments therein stationed, and, under the Cavalry Colonel, Yeomanry Cavalry, Light Horse Volunteers, Mounted Rifle Volunteers, and Cavalry Army Reserve men. Thus, the general officers commands would comprise several sub-districts, and the supreme authority of the Commander-in-Chief would be distributed through the general officers commanding to the officers in command of the several sub-districts.
  I now approach a subject which has always been a difficulty in these arrangements, and which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Lancashire (Captain Stanley) has always taken a particular interest in—namely, the precise position of the linked battalions. Where there are two battalions in one regiment the arrangements will be comparatively simple. But in regard to the case where two separate battalions are to be linked together for the purposes of this arrangement, it has been the object of the highest military authorities, of the Commander-in-Chief, and those by whom he is surrounded, to assist us in accomplishing the closest union without interfering with the traditions and esprit de corps, about which we heard so much in the
  868
  early part of the evening, and which I beg to say, although I am only a civilian, I have a sufficient knowledge of the world, I hope, to appreciate, and would be the last to do anything to injure. The recommendation on this subject is as follows:—
  "The battalions which shall be linked together to form the Line portion of an Administrative Brigade under the new organization shall, so far as regards the Sub-Lieutenants appointed, and the soldiers enlisted, after the date of the order so linking such battalions, constitute one corps for all military purposes, including promotion.
  "And from the date of such order all appointments of Sub-Lieutenants to Line battalions, and all enlistments for Line service, shall be for the brigade of which two or more Line battalions form a component part, instead of being, as heretofore, for particular regiments.
  "And the Sub-Lieutenants who may be appointed to, and the soldiers who may be enlisted for, the Line portion of any such brigade shall, for reliefs, for all duties at home and abroad, and for every military purpose whatsoever, and in whatever ranks they may thereafter respectively hold, be interchangeable between the several battalions of their brigade, and shall be liable to serve in either of the Line battalions thereof, or, during war or times of emergency, in either of the Militia battalions thereof, indifferently, without regard to the particular battalion to which they may have been first posted."
  That, I think, draws very closely together the linked battalions, and will give great facilities to those officers who wish to go to or come home from India without breaking their connection with their corps, or going to the bottom of the list. As I have been asked the question, I may say, without trespassing further than I ought, that the duties of a sub-district will comprise the following services:—The colonel will have charge of the training of recruits both for the Line and the Infantry Militia; training of Infantry Militia; training of Rifle Volunteer Corps; registry, payment, and training of Army Reserve and enrolled Pensioners; inspections; recruiting; care of arms and stores, and military instruction of officers of the Auxiliary forces. The Artillery colonel will have charge of the training of Artillery Militia recruits; training of Artillery Militia regiments; training of Artillery Volunteers; training of Artillery, Army Reserve men, and enrolled Pensioners, when ordered out; inspections; recruiting, and instruction of Militia and Volunteer officers. In like manner the cavalry colonel will be responsible for the training of Yeomanry recruits;

  869
  training of Yeomanry regiments; training of Light Horse and Mounted Rifle Volunteers; training of Cavalry, Army Reserve men, and enrolled Pensioners, when ordered out; inspections; cavalry instruction, and recruiting. I have seen it said that there is no visible sign of that organization of the Army which was aimed at by the late Act. It was passed on the last day of last Session; organizations of this kind do not grow in a day, and sometimes the more haste that is made the less satisfactory is the result. I think when I tell you that the very next Army List, which will appear in March, will contain all the arrangements for the organization of the British Army, you will agree with me that those who have been engaged in making those preparations have not been slothful or inactive during the period which has elapsed since the Act was passed. It has been a work of great labour, for great consideration had to be given to questions of personnel—on account of local connection and the desirableness of disturbing the roster as little as possible—and to questions of place, which involved local inquiry. We had to consider the convenience of the service and of localities, the prices of land, and the salubrity of situations. All the localities, so far as the Committee are concerned, have been determined upon in the Report, which has been laid upon the Table. All the regulations for the Infantry, the Artillery, and the Cavalry have been drawn up, and are ready to be issued. In 18 places buildings are ready, and almost immediately arrangements will be made for using them; in other places buildings have to be erected. In the meantime the colonel commanding a brigade sub-district will be invested with the command of all the Infantry of the Auxiliary and Reserve forces thereof. He will direct as he may think fit the employment of the officers and non-commissioned officers of the depot, as well as of the officers and noncommissioned officers who may be appointed as Adjutants and Sergeants of the Militia battalions of the brigade; or as adjutants and sergeant-instructors of Volunteers of the brigade sub-district. In directing the employment of this Staff upon duties not immediately connected with the training and instruction of the Militia and Volunteers, he will be careful to place under the immediate orders of
  870
  the officers commanding Militia and Volunteer battalions such Staff as may be necessary for the discharge of the duties connected with those corps during the periods they are not under training or instruction. The object will be to enable the adjutants to proceed with that instruction which they are so well qualified to give, while in every respect they treat with due consideration all the commanding officers of the various corps. An hon. and gallant Member (Captain Talbot) asked me a Question on the subject of a Reserve for the Cavalry and Artillery, to which I promised to give an answer now. He will have gathered from the statements I have made that we have not introduced as yet any new system of enlistment for those services, and the reason is, not that the subject has been forgotten, but that a year in which the labour-market was most abnormally disturbed, and a year in which we were in a transition state, passing from an old system to a new one, was not, in our opinion, a year in which it would be prudent to introduce changes that we could avoid. Recruiting has hitherto been carried on upon a general system under local Staff officers. We are proposing to establish a new, and, we hope, a more efficient, system of recruiting; but it would have been a fatal mistake to displace the old machinery before we had erected the new, and we thought it highly inexpedient, therefore, to initiate any change at present in the terms of enlistment; but when we have passed under the new system we shall propose to adapt short service to the exigencies of the Reserve for the Cavalry and Artillery as well as of the service generally. With regard to buildings, there was appointed a Committee consisting of the Inspector General of Fortifications, the Quartermaster General, General M'Dougall, the Director General of the Army Medical Department, Dr. Sutherland, and Colonel Ewart. The result has been that arrangements are in progress for purchases, or inquiries are being made' in all the places where it is proposed to establish brigade depôts; and arrangements are being made for a training-ground at Wormwood Scrubs, available for Regulars and Volunteers; for tactical exercise grounds at Lichfield and Lanark; for a great tactical station in Yorkshire; and for store depôts. Thus a scheme is

  871
  already in operation—or it will be by the 1st of April—by which, when it is completely established, every colonel will be able, on receiving orders, to assemble, with all their personal equipment, all the forces under his command; and every general officer will be able, on receiving orders from head-quarters, to assemble not only with their personal equipment, but with their camp equipment, all the forces under the general officer's command, and that without having recourse to head-quarters in London. I have seen comments on the supposed desire of the War Office for close centralization; but I can assure the Committee that the feeling there is quite the opposite. We have quite enough legitimate labour without being so foolish as to wish to concentrate in the War Office, business which can be more efficiently transacted by others. One other thing, and that by no means the least important, remains to be mentioned. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham (Sir Harry Verney) asked last Session whether we proposed to have a "Chief of the Staff." The answer I gave, at the request of His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief, was that he considered the duties of such an officer belonged to himself, by virtue of the office he held. In Germany, as is well known, the Sovereign takes the field in person, and the officer who is principally responsible for the preparations is known as the "Chief of the Staff." In England the case is otherwise, and the Commander-in-Chief regards those duties as belonging to himself. They are very important, and such as General Moltke has become illustrious by having performed for Germany. They require what has never been provided in this country—a special organization. They involve an accurate knowledge of the preparations of other countries and of our own, and the possible application of those preparations to every circumstance that may arise. It is known in Germany as a special branch of military science, and is called, I believe, Logisticks; but it means, not any interference with generalship, but the careful preparation of those measures which may enable generals to act best according to the exigencies of the case, and so as to prevent those mistakes which at the outset of any operations are so fatal and so difficult to retrieve. It involves
  872
  the question of stores, of railway communication, of telegraphs, of local resources of every kind, including transport; and in this country it would involve matters connected with the Navy in so far as naval measures might bear upon military operations. And all this not only in a general sense, but in its detailed application to ever-varying circumstances. This is what has been carried out in Germany, and on a smaller scale with success in Canada, where, the colony having been constantly threatened with Fenian invasion, every preparation was made to meet it; all the supplies and all the transport being in readiness. Thus the Canadian Militia were saved the inconvenience and cost of being kept perpetually under arms, and could be summoned by telegraph in a few hours when their services were really required. Now, we certainly have in this country a Topographical Department consisting of scientific officers, under that most excellent officer, Captain Wilson. We have in our system—as my right hon. Friend who preceded me in office knows—various statistical branches in various parts of the Administration; but nothing like a connected Intelligence Department has ever existed in this country. It has appeared to us that it is quite possible to create it without any large additional expense by attaching to His Royal Highness the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief a general officer who shall not be overwhelmed by daily executive duties, but whose function it shall be to be responsible to the Commander-in-Chief and to the Executive Government for the proper conduct of what may constitute a real Intelligence Department, so that, under all the varying circumstances of the country, whenever the Commander-in-Chief shall be called upon to solve any problem or consider any circumstances which may be of more than usual importance, he shall know where to lay his hand on information connected with any branch of the service, whether it concerns fortifications—whether it relates to any strategical matter—whether it relates to organization or to equipment—in short, whatever the matter may be the Commander-in-Chief or the Executive Government may require, the Intelligence Department is to furnish the necessary information upon it at any moment. For this purpose I have inserted in the Estimates

  873
  the modest sum of £1,200—the salary of a Deputy Adjutant General—who will be immediately attached to His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief, and whose first task it will be to overlook the topographical and all the various Statistical Departments, to propose any additions which may appear to be necessary, and to combine the whole into one efficient Intelligence Department. By this means I believe that both efficiency and economy will be promoted. That detailed system of local government of the Army which may suit a country like Prussia cannot altogether be applied to a country like England, with its great amount of foreign service and its various peculiarities; but as far as the creation of a complete Intelligence Department goes, we may do much to make our system under the new arrangements as efficient as the more local system of some other countries. This is a proposal to which, though small in itself as regards expense, I hope the Committee will agree with me in attaching the highest value and importance.
  I must now turn for a few moments to some other subjects. The Purchase system was referred to in the earlier part of the evening. The Commission for dealing with Purchase in the Army has now been in operation for about a year and five months. The sum of money which, according to the actuarial calculation, they would have expended by this time is £1,584,000. We voted for this purpose in the first year £600,000, and in the next £840,000, making together £1,440,000. They have received in repayments from India £38,000, making altogether £1,478,000. Now, the amount actually expended is £1,226,800, and they will require to the 31st of March £85,000 more, making together £1,311,800, or £272,200 less than the actuarial calculation, and £166,500 less than the Votes. I mention these circumstances, because it is supposed that there has been a great disposition to retire by the sale of commissions. I have shown you how much less the sum is than that which I stated when the Bill was under consideration. There was at one time, before the new system came into operation, a great number of sales, but now it has fallen to the average. There has been some talk of the presentation of Petitions for an alteration of the system which was
  874
  adopted; but as those Petitions were abandoned on the first signification of the disapproval of His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief, I do not think it necessary to say a word regarding them, except this—that the Government has shown, and that Parliament has shown, no indisposition to consider any cases which fall within the equity of the Act, although they might not be within its letter. Thus half-pay officers have been allowed to retire without any regard to the limit mentioned in the Act; many vested interests have been admitted, and we have stated our intention to include in the Vote a sum on account of the Indian Artillery and Engineers. The effect of the system we have followed is that many old and deserving officers have been promoted who had been often purchased over; many reduced officers have been provided for by military promotion; many supernumeraries have been absorbed; and a large reduction has been effected in the half-pay list. I am happy to say that when The Army List for March comes out a large number of colonels who were placed on half-pay, and who must have remained, many of them, for a long time on half-pay, will appear as having been restored to full pay in command of the new brigade depots. The arrangements have been especially favourable to those officers who had risen from the ranks.
  With regard to first commissions, the number of those who passed in 1871 has been provided for. Notice has been given of the first competitive examination in May next, and in the Militia the first appointments will be made after the present training. The intention is that every regiment of six companies or upwards shall have at once one commission, provided, of course, there is an officer who is properly recommended. Various alterations are proposed in the Regulations with respect to retirement and to half-pay, which, at this hour, I will not mention, because the Committee will have an opportunity of seeing them; but they will all tend to make the position of officers of the Army in some respects more satisfactory.
  There are one or two other points to be mentioned before I sit down. Last year arrangements were made to meet the long outstanding claim for promotion in the Royal Artillery and Engineers,

  875
  a subject which was urged upon me as one of peculiar interest and difficulty. I hope we may say we have overcome that difficulty satisfactorily, and that promotions will correspond as nearly as could be expected with the arrangements for the other branches of the service. I wish to make a statement with regard to the medical service of the Army. The surgeons, like the Artillery and Engineers, have been complaining not of an actual, but of an immediately prospective stagnation of promotion. Large numbers of medical men were appointed about the time of the Crimean War and the Indian Mutiny, and while their professional brethren in the Indian service were receiving promotion after 12 years' service, they were looking forward to stagnation, even those who had had 15 years' service. We propose that there should be reduced numbers in battalions and larger numbers on the Staff, by developing the system of station hospitals, which must prevail in case of war, and is strongly recommended by the highest medical authority in time of peace. Fewer officers will thus be attached to the regiments, and more will be upon the Staff. This will lead to great improvement in the future medical arrangements. We do not propose to retain the title of assistant-surgeon, but to have only surgeons and surgeons-major, and the ranks above them; and another portion of the plan will be such as, while there is great objection to making it an absolute condition, will enable a surgeon to look confidently forward to becoming a surgeon-major after 15 years' service, and in India will give him local rank after 12 years. This, I have reason to believe, will give great satisfaction.
  I am now obliged to ask the patient attention of the Committee with respect to a change which I think an important one. It is the question of the stoppage for rations, which is now taken from the pay of the soldiers. This stoppage is exceedingly unpopular with the soldier; and another circumstance makes me very desirous of getting rid of it. I am not satisfied with the arrangements which at present subsist in the Department for making payments on behalf of the service. We have at the present moment four systems of pay under the War Office—the regimental system,
  876
  the Control system, a system of paying through Staff officers of Pensioners, and payments made through adjutants of the Auxiliary forces. The Financial Secretary has paid great attention to this subject—no man being more competent to deal with it—and he is of opinion that great reform and considerable economy might be secured by a better system of pay. He is accordingly presiding over a Committee which has been appointed, consisting of those in the War Office and the Treasury most competent to deal with the subject, for the purpose of considering whether we cannot improve the system. Now, it would be an immense convenience in making that change if we could get rid of all the troublesome stoppages, more; especially of the minute fractions, the farthings, and all the minute discussions which have to be held; and I observe that regimental officers here are familiar with them. I believe it would be very popular with the Army, and would tend to the convenience of the Department, if we could get rid of this. Formerly the soldier paid for his rations whatever, was the actual price up to 6d.; but in 1854 a fixed sum of 4½d. was adopted, and so it remains now. At the present moment, the rations costing us nearly 7d., the soldier pays us 4½d. only. Some years ago the Prince Regent gave an allowance of wine to the officers, and at the same time 1d. a-day beer money to the soldier when at home. In 1867 the re-engagement penny was introduced; but in 1870 it was abolished, on the adoption of short service. In abolishing it, however, we took the precaution of arranging with the Treasury that we reserved to ourselves, on a suitable opportunity, the determining how to benefit the soldier in some other way. The pay at present of the private soldier is 1s. 2d. a-day, with the addition of 1d. in this country for beer money, and the stoppage being 4½d., his net pay is 10½d. Now, I was extremely unwilling to do away with the stoppage if it made the pay of any soldier less than a clear shilling a-day. I propose, therefore, to pay every man not less than a shilling a-day, besides his ration of meat and bread. I believe this will be very acceptable to the Army, and I do not think the Committee, in its generosity, will refuse to sanction the arrangement. We hope not only to get rid of the stoppage, but of the minute

  877
  fractions, which are very troublesome. I have stated the principle of the plan, and I will pass over the details. Of course the change will not give an equal advantage to everybody. It will give everybody, I believe, through the whole Army, some advantage—most certainly none will be put to any disadvantage; but the greatest advantage will be given to the privates of infantry regiments, whose pay will at once be raised from 10½d. to 1s. The hospital stoppage, which is now 10 d., will be reduced to 8d., so as to leave, as before, the clear 4d. for the soldier, but not beer money. We make one exception to this rule, which I am sure the Committee will agree in thinking it to be just to the public and beneficial to the soldier. Where it is reported upon medical authority that the soldier is in hospital from causes for which his own conduct is responsible, we intend to stop his whole pay, and not merely a portion of it. The whole cost of this change per annum would be £197,000 on the present establishment; but the re-engagement money counts for £70,000, the arrangement I have mentioned about the hospital for £11,000, the rations on furlough for £6,000, these items making £87,000, and leaving a clear addition to the Estimates for the year of £110,000. The arrangement will apply to the Militia as well as to the Line; but we have not thought it necessary to increase the expenditure to any considerable amount for the Militia. My right hon. and gallant Friend the Surveyor-General of Ordnance (Sir Henry Storks) inquired last year into the system of clothing the Militia, in which inquiry he was assisted by several eminent Militia officers, and they proposed that the clothing by a new arrangement should extend over six years instead of five. It is intended to give effect to the Report of that Committee, and we propose to alter the period of the engagement of the Militia from five years to six. The consequence will be that we can make this arrangement about stoppage without involving any additional cost in the whole as regards the Militia. Of course, when Militiamen and the Line are brigaded together, they will receive the same treatment. It would be impossible to obtain the sanction of Parliament, and make the arrangements necessary for this change so as to carry it into effect
  878
  before the time for Militia training. It will not, therefore, come into effect till the 1st of October, and the cost for the present year will be £55,000, and in subsequent years £110,000. That is an arrangement to which I attach considerable importance, and which I believe will be very satisfactory to the soldier.
  I ought not entirely to pass over the question of Stores, though my right lion. and gallant Friend (Sir Henry Storks) will on future occasions speak more fully upon it. Many questions have been pending about rifles, great guns, field guns, howitzers, siege guns, powder for great guns, gun-cotton, and many other articles, and, in short, almost every kind of armament. These matters are now settled. I have further to state that we have ordered 14 35-ton guns for the Navy, which are to be completed before the end of the year 1872–3; 18 of the same weight for the land works, which are to be completed in 1873–4, and 18 25-ton guns, which are to be completed in the same year. I may state that the 35-ton gun is a most powerful weapon, that it has pierced 18½ inches of iron backed by teak, and that its accuracy up to 4,000 yards is excellent. We have given considerable attention to the manufacture of torpedoes, and have experimented largely on gun-cotton—an explosive material the nature of which is but little understood at present. In conducting some experiments at the sea-side with this substance we discovered that it could be fired by detonation when wet, while in that state it is unaffected by mere fire, and I need not say that this is a discovery of the greatest importance. Further experiments will be carried on in order that the full consequences of the discovery may be tested.
  The Committee is aware that for some time considerable anxiety has been expressed with regard to the state of our graveyards in the Crimea. Last autumn we sent General Adye and Colonel Gordon to the Crimea to inspect the state of those graveyards. They were received with the greatest attention by the Russian authorities, and they visited all the cemeteries at Sebastopol, at Kertch, and at the Alma, which they found suffering from the effects of time, but not, as a rule, from desecration. I have laid the Report of those gentlemen on the Table of the House. They propose

  879
  that we should repair and maintain a few of the chief cemeteries and to cover the others with turf to a depth that will render it impossible to desecrate them. The cost of doing this is estimated at about £5,000. These gentlemen also visited the cemeteries in the Bosphorus, which were well cared for and in good order; and those at Smyrna, which were in bad repair. The Report has been communicated to the Treasury and to the Foreign Office, but Her Majesty's Government have not yet taken any action on the subject.
  I wish also to refer to a subject that has excited a good deal of interest, and with regard to which I received several communications during the autumn. I refer to the 40th section of the Mutiny Act. I propose, in laying the Mutiny Act on the table, to leave out the obnoxious provision, but to substitute for it a clause to provide against either oppression or the collusive exercise of power to which the soldier when absent on duty would be specially liable, and to provide by stoppage from pay for cases in which the liability is established.
  I have now nearly arrived at my conclusion; but I cannot sit down without observing that we have now had two years of the Autumn Manœuvres, and that they have produced the happiest effect on the discipline and spirit of the Army. The first year, when they took place at Aldershot, the cost for compensation of damages done to the district was only £1,200; but last year, owing to the more extended field, and the more valuable description of the land occupied, the expenses were heavier, but I believe we shall be able to pay everything out of the ordinary Estimates of the year. I also believe that, as far as the claims of compensation are concerned, we shall be able to settle them all without in any case resorting to the Court of Arbitration provided by the Act. The whole sum, I think, will not exceed from £5,000 to £6,000. His Royal Highness and the distinguished soldiers who surrounded him took the greatest interest in the late Manœuvres. The country was greatly pleased at the conduct of the troops, and the Army was equally gratified with the reception it met with at all hands. I must remind the Committee that there are very few districts where these Manœuvres can be held. I did at one time desire that they
  880
  might be held in Ireland in turn with this country and Scotland; but I found that when held on such a large scale as was the case last year it was impossible to hold them in the thickly populated parts of either Ireland, Scotland, or the North of England. We have made a proposal in the Estimates for having Manœuvres this autumn; but whether they will be on the same scale as last year, or whether the same number of men will be divided so as to give Ireland, Dartmoor, and the North of England an opportunity of seeing the Manœuvres gone through by smaller bodies of men, has not been determined. I believe this system of exercising large bodies of men to be a great advance upon the old system, and to tend largely to increase the usefulness of the force. No one who witnessed the sight at Beacon Hill, near Amesbury, will ever forget the magnificent effect of the splendid scone at the Autumn Manœuvres of 1872. His Royal Highness, in a Report which I have laid on the Table, and which will be in the hands of hon. Members in a few days, says—
  "This fine military display took place, after one day of entire rest for the troops, on Thursday, the 12th. The ground was admirably adapted for so imposing a military spectacle. The spectators, of whom there were vast numbers from distant parts and from the immediate neighbourhood, had ample means of seeing the force displayed to its best advantage. The day was splendid, a bright sunshiny autumn day, and the smartness and efficiency of the several corps reflected the greatest credit upon the zeal of all concerned."
  In conclusion, I may say to those who, like the hon. Member for Cambridge, object to large establishments, that in numbers the Army will compare favourably even with the model year 1850–1, when the regimental establishment consisted of 113,491, as against 123,110, of which it will consist during the ensuing year, for the difference scarcely exceeds the number which has been added to provide depots for the regiments in India, for which India pays. In preparing the Estimates it has been the most sincere desire of Her Majesty's Government to be as economical as is consistent with the efficiency of the service, and to see that the people of this country get the full value for their money. For myself, I yield to no member of the Peace Society in my desire for Peace, and my abhorrence of war. But I have never

  881
  observed that either in public or in private life the way to ensure peace is to be unprepared to assert your own just rights. To the maintenance of peace two things are necessary—one is that you. shall yourself show by your conduct that you desire to live on terms of peace with your neighbour, and the other is that you should make other people equally desirous of living on peaceable relations with you; things which you can only accomplish, either as an individual or as a nation, by showing that you are conscious of your own responsibility and. that you respect your own position. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the Vote for 128,968 men.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 128,968, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and for Depots for the training of Recruits for service at Home and Abroad, including Her Majesty's Indian Possessions, from the 1st day of April 1873 to the 31st day of March 1874, inclusive."
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, the statement just made by the right hon. Gentleman was by no means so startling as one of the statements he had made on a similar occasion. Nevertheless, it was of the deepest interest and importance, and he was quite sure the feeling of the Committee was that the fairest consideration should be given to it. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not object to an adjournment of the debate. The right hon. Gentleman had intimated that the Report of the Inspector General on Recruiting would be placed on the Table to-morrow morning.
  MR. CARDWELLremarked that he had not exactly promised that the Report should be placed on the Table at that time.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, that at any rate it was not before the House at present, and before proceeding with the discussion it was desirable that it should be in the hands of hon. Members. The plan for the appointment of a Chief of the Staff was a new proposal, and so was the proposal with respect to stoppages. He moved that the Chairman do now report Progress.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he had no wish except to meet the convenience of the House. The first Order of the Day on Thursday was the Railway and Canal
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  Traffic Bill. He should propose to put down the adjourned discussion on the Army Estimates as the second Order, and he hoped that there would be then time to take the discussion.
  MR. W. FOWLERsaid, he hoped that the request of the right hon. Baronet that the debate should be adjourned would be consented to, as it was impossible to deal off-hand with all the matters to which the Secretary for War had referred.
  MR. M. CHAMBERSsaid, there stood on the list an important national question—the Juries Bill; and he and those who, like himself, had determined to resist the progress of the measure to the utmost, had been told that the discussion on the Army Estimates would last the whole evening. If it were brought on that night, many of its opponents would necessarily be absent, and he therefore trusted that if the Motion for reporting Progress was agreed to, it would be understood that the Juries Bill would also be postponed.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, he was very glad the Secretary for War did not intend to press the Army Estimates to-night. He thought a later day than Thursday should be fixed foil the discussion of these Estimates.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSONsaid, that he was glad the discussion was to be adjourned; but it must be understood that the House was not pledged to come to a vote on Thursday night, if there was not then sufficient time for a complete debate.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, his right hon. Friend was aware that a great number of his constituents being licensed victuallers, and, he believed, also inhabitants of Wiltshire, had suffered loss through the movements of troops in connection with the Autumn Manœuvres. He therefore hoped his right hon. Friend would, when they came to discuss the matter, consent to provide out of the compensation money for such losses, and insert a larger allowance for billets in the Mutiny Act.
  MR. EYKYNsaid, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consider the necessity of totally abolishing the existing system of billet.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, the Government were bound consistently with the views they recently propounded as to the conduct of the Business of the House to fix

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  a time when these Estimates would be resumed as the first Order of the Day. He wished to know whether the Government intended to take any steps with regard to the clothing of Volunteer regiments, and also whether the scheme for the retirement and promotion of officers, which they were promised two years ago, had yet been prepared and would soon be laid on the Table?
  MR. R. N. FOWLERasked when the Report of General Adye with regard to the graveyards in the Crimea would be in the hands of hon. Members, and whether the Government intended to act upon it?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he had laid the Report of General Adye on the Table of the House, and it would soon be in the hands of hon. Members.
  MAJOR GENERAL SIR PERCY HERBERTasked whether there would be any reduction in the pay to the soldier on furlough?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, there would be a small reduction, but it would only amount on the year to £6,000. With regard to billets, the question was under consideration. The Government were not adopting any compulsory steps with regard to the uniforms of the Volunteers.
  MAJOR GENERAL SIR PERCY HERBERTsaid, that at present the soldier on furlough received his full pay, less beer money. Would he now receive 1s., instead of 1s. 2d.?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, that was the intention.
  MR. R. N. FOWLERasked whether the right hon. Gentleman meant to propose any Vote for carrying out the recommendations of General Adye?
  MB. CARDWELLreplied that these recommendations had not yet been considered by the Government, though they had been communicated to the Treasury and the War Office. He could not name a day for the Estimates. Probably a positive answer would be given tomorrow.
  MR. MITCHELL-HENRYasked what would be the position of Militia surgeons?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, it was not intended to discontinue Militia surgeons when Militia regiments were out of training. At present, however, a large part of the remuneration of a Militia surgeon was derived from the inspection of recruits;
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  but, under the new system, it was intended that all recruits should be inspected by the Army medical officers. There would be an Army surgeon at each brigade depôt.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKwarned the Committee of the consequence of putting off the discussion on this Vote. The result would be that there would be an accumulation of Business at the end of the Session which would then have to be got through "helter skelter," in the manner which had drawn down upon the House the condemnation of the Judges of the land.
  COLONEL WILSON-PATTENasked whether the non-commissioned officers of the staff Militia under the new system would become entitled to pensions?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, that they would retain all their present rights as long as they remained on the Staff.
  Motion, "That the Chairman do report Progress," agreed to.
  House resumed.

CUSTODY OF INFANTS BILL.— [BILL 67.]
(Mr. William Fowler, Colonel Loyd Lindsay, Mr. Lopes, and Mr. Mundella.)
CUSTODY OF INFANTS BILL.— [BILL 67.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. W. FOWLER,in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that its object was to extend the powers of what was known as Talfourd's Act—the 2 & 3 Vic. c. 54—and to give power to the Court of Chancery to order that the mother shall have access to and custody of her children up to 16 years of age. Talfourd's Act gave this power up to seven years of age, and had been found to act so beneficially that it was desirable to extend it, and the age of 16 had been chosen because children above that age could by law choose their own guardian. The Bill further proposed to legalize agreements between the parents giving the custody of children to their mother, except where the Court might deem it not for the benefit of the children to enforce such agreement. At present, unless it can be shown that the husband has been guilty of such misconduct as would induce the Court to deprive him of the custody of his children where there is no agreement, the Court will refuse to enforce any agreement that

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  would have that effect—nothing short of actual injury to the children, moral or physical, will induce the Court to deprive him of his right—and this was done in the "interest of public policy." This Bill would put an end to this cruel injustice, and the Court would enforce the agreement unless it should deem it contrary to the real interests of the children to do so.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the second time."—(Mr. W. Fowler.)
  MR. LOPESthought the better course would be to repeal Serjeant Talfourd's Act altogether and substitute this Bill as a complete enactment on the subject.
  MR. W. FOWLERsaid, that the fourth clause expressly repealed Serjent Talfourd's Act.
  After a few words from Mr. GREGORY, who suggested the insertion of some provisions against a misuse of the powers of the Bill,
  Motion agreed to: Bill read a second time and committed for Friday.

  TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE.
  Select Committee appointed, "to inquire into the Eleventh Schedule of The Annual Turnpike Acts Continuance Act, 1872.'"—(Mr. Hibbert.)
  And, on February 27, Committee nominated as follows:—Lord GEORGE CAVENDISH, Sir ROBERT ANSTRUTHER, Mr. BEACH, Mr. WENTWORTH BEAUMONT, Mr. WILI3RAHAM EGERTON, Mr. WELBY, and Sir JOHN ST. AUBYN:—Power to send for persons, papers, and records; Three to be the quorum.
  Instruction to the Committee, that they have power to inquire and report to the House under what conditions, with reference to the rate of interest, expenses of management, maintenance of road, payment of debt, and term of years, or other special arrangements, the Acts of any of the Trusts mentioned should be continued.—(Mr. Hibbert.)

  RAILWAYS PROVISIONAL CERTIFICATE BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. ARTHUR PEEL. Bill to confirm a Provisional Certificate made by the Board of Trade under "The Railways Construction Facilities Act, 1864," and "The Railways (Powers and Construction) Acts, 1864, Amendment Act, 1870," for the incorporation of the. Widnes Railway Company, and for the construction of the Widnes Railway, ordered to be brought in by Mr. ARTHUR PEEL and Mr. CHICHESTER FQRTESCUE.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 78.]
  House adjourned at a quarter after Nine o'clock.

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Horses, nominated.
PUBLIC BILLs—Second Reading—Epping Forest* (19), discharged.
Select Committee—Regulation of Railways (Prevention of Accidents)* (23), nominated.

NAVY—H.M.S. "DEVASTATION."

  POSTPONEMENT OF NOTICE.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNrose to make a request of his noble Friend on the cross-Benches (the Earl of Lauderdale) whose Notice on the subject of the Devastation stood as the first Order of the Day. He wished in their Lordships' House to make an appeal to his noble Friend which he had already made to him in private. Tile commissioning of the Devastation, as their Lordships were aware, was an occurrence of no ordinary interest. She was believed to be not only the most powerful vessel of war in the world, but she was also one of a new type, and the first unmasted sea-going ironclad that had as yet been launched. The First Lord of the Admiralty intended when moving the Navy Estimates in the course of the next fortnight to make a full and complete statement with reference to her, and therefore he now ventured to ask his noble Friend to postpone
  830
  his Question until the Navy Estimates had been moved. His reason for asking the noble Earl to postpone the matter was that he felt sure it would be more satisfactory that all the various points with reference to the Devastation which had excited public interest should be dealt with completely and simultaneously, and that above all it was important to preclude the possibility of erroneous inferences being drawn from an answer to an isolated question. After the Navy Estimates had been moved he should be very glad to afford the noble Earl any information in his power.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEsaid, he had intended to ask his noble Friend whether the Devastation was to be inclined in order to ascertain her stability at various angles, and as to what trials were to be made at sea to ascertain her efficiency and safety as a sea-going vessel in bad weather, such as a sea-going vessel is liable to encounter at all seasons. He felt much interested in the experiment of constructing such a ship as the Devastation. He was not one of those who had held that she would be a good sea-going vessel, but he thought that a trial of such an iron-clad should be made in order to decide the question. After the appeal made to him by his noble Friend, and the reasons stated for that appeal, he could not hesitate to postpone his Question.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETdesired to say a word as to the inconvenience of allowing Notices to stand on the Paper of the day for which they had been put down, and giving no intimation to noble Lords beforehand that they were not to be brought on. He had come down to the House at some inconvenience, but he should not have done so if he had not believed that he should have an opportunity of making some observations on the subject of the Devastation. He could not see any good reason for postponing the matter. It could not be discussed among a whole mass of figures such as entered into the Navy Estimates; but if the subject of the Devastation was taken by itself their Lordships might have a useful discussion on the state of the vessel, which he believed was far from satisfactory.
  THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEcould assure the noble Duke it was not his fault that he had not had notice of the intended postponement. He was not aware

  831
  that the noble Earl (the Earl of Camper-down) intended to make this request until it was too late to give notice.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he regretted that his noble Friend (the Duke of Somerset) should have suffered any inconvenience. The request for a postponement was only made to the noble Earl (the Earl of Lauderdale) on Saturday night, and until their Lordships met this afternoon he had been unable to inform the noble Duke that there would be a postponement. He thought the noble Duke would himself agree in thinking that the First Lord of the Admiralty would desire to have this opportunity of making his statement with regard to the Devastation before the subject was discussed. He must demur to his noble Friend's statement as to the vessel being in an unsatisfactory condition.

  CHURCH TEMPORALITIES COMMISSIONS (IRELAND)—PURCHASE OF RENT CHARGE.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDasked, as to the Irish Church Act, 1869, What proportion of "owners" have applied to the Church Temporalities Commissioners to purchase their rent-charge in lieu of tithes, and whether it was intended to propose any change in the conditions under which rent-charge in lieu of tithes may now be purchased (under the 32nd section)? His reason for asking the Question was that it is generally understood that the progress made so far had been very slow, not more than 10 per cent of the proprietors concerned having as yet applied to purchase. As one of the proprietors he was not surprised that such should be the case. They had from the first protested against the conditions laid upon them, and although last year some modifications were made and some advantage given to them on the score of an allowance as deduction for payment of poor rate, still they hoped for yet better terms; and there was a general impression that the Government had some measure in preparation—either by the compulsory conversion of all tithe rent-charge into a Government rent-charge, to expire at a fixed time, or by some other arrangement for the purpose of expediting the proceedings of the Commissioners. As an instance of the delay which had been
  832
  caused by the prevailing uncertainty, he might mention that on the 19th of February, 1872, he applied to purchase a tithe rent-charge of £9 6s. 9d., and the purchase was not yet completed. It had advanced considerably, but the transaction was a very small one to extend over more than a year. He did not, however, make any charge against the Commissioners—they had had a very complicated matter to deal with. The change made in the law last year, small as it was, had interrupted their proceedings, and it was for some time uncertain what the result of their action might be; but it was now known that there would be a considerable surplus available for the advancement of learning, or for the improvement of the breed of horses or other public purpose, and he hoped to hear that some arrangement was in view to enable owners to purchase their rent-charge on more favourable conditions.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, it was quite true that only a very small number of owners in Ireland—only 4,700, which was a very small proportion—had applied for commutation under the Irish Church Act; but at present Her Majesty's Government had no intention of bringing in any measure on the subject.
  House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock, 'till To-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.