Sitting of 23 February 1872

MINUTES.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—Committee R.P.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Building Societies* [66].
Committee—Royal Parks and Gardens [17]—R.P.
Committee—Report—Reformatory and Industrial Schools* [25].
Third Reading—Public Parks (Ireland)* [41], and passed.

DANUBIAN PRINCIPALITIES-ATTACKS ON JEWS IN ROUMANIA.

  QUESTION.
  SIR FRANCIS GOLDSMIDasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Government have received information of tumultuous attacks made on the Jews in several towns of Roumania, in consequence of an accusation made against a Jew of having stolen a sacred article from a church in Ismail; and, whether instructions have been given to Her Majesty's Consul General in Bucharest to make any friendly representation on the subject to the Roumanian Government?
  VISCOUNT ENFIELD: Sir, both at Ismail and at Cahul, a small town 40 miles from Galatz, disturbances have arisen, and attacks been made upon the Jewish population of those districts, in consequence of an act of sacrilege and robbery that had been committed in the early part of January by a Jew in the Cathedral Church of Ismail. Mr. Consul General Green reports that he has appealed to the Roumanian Government to restore order, and Her Majesty's Government, on hearing of these disturbances, at once telegraphed to Mr. Green to do all in his power for the protection of the Jews.

IRELAND—PUBLIC EDUCATION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. LESLIEasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, in his reply to a Memorial signed by the Roman Catholic Bishop of Cork on the subject of Education in Ireland, the words—
  "When Her Majesty's Government find themselves able to make any proposal upon any portion of the Public Education of Ireland, it will be framed in accordance with the declarations heretofore made by them on various occasions,"
  may be interpreted as a declaration in favour of the national system of Educa-

  947
  tion as opposed to the denominational system?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I do not think, Sir, it would be convenient—and I think the hon. Member for Monhagan (Mr. Leslie) will agree that it would not be convenient—in answer to a Question to enter upon a detailed statement of the views of the Government with regard to national education in Ireland; and especially when the hon. Member speaks of "the national system of Education as opposed to the denominational system." If I were to adopt that phrase of his, I should immediately be entangled in the necessity of answering many other Questions as to the degree in which the national system in Ireland is harmonious with the denominational system, or stands opposed to it. I will, therefore, only say this—that I can sum up in one sentence what I take to be the general effect of the declarations made heretofore by Members of the Government on various previous occasions with respect to the national system in Ireland; and the sentence is to this effect—that, while before taking office and since taking office we have pointed to the system of the higher education in Ireland as requiring some material change in the public arrangements of the country to be introduced, in order to do justice to all portions of the Irish population, we have never made any such declaration with regard to the system of national or primary education in Ireland, but have always said that, as far as we were able to judge, it did not call for anything in the nature of a fundamental change.

CANADIAN AND AMERICAN FISHERIES—COLLISIONS BETWEEN FISHERMEN.

  QUESTION.
  MR. D. DALRYMPLEasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether any measures have been taken to prevent collisions between Canadian and American fishermen in North American waters during the coming fishing season?
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN: Sir, I am happy to say that during the last season there were no collisions between Canadian and American fishermen, and we hope that the coming season may show no other result. But, according to the usual practice, instructions on the subject, calculated to avert disagreeable results, will be sent at the
  948
  proper time to the Admiral on the station.

IRELAND—OFFICE OF CORONER.

  QUESTION.
  MR. VANCEasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, At what period of the Session it is the intention of the Government to introduce their promised measure for the regulation of the office of Coroner in Ireland?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he hoped very shortly, and certainly before Easter, to introduce a Bill dealing with the duties and emoluments of several county officers in Ireland; and he did not see any reason why the regulation of the office of coroner should not be included in the same measure.

THANKSGIVING IN THE METROPOLITAN CATHEDRAL—THE ROYAL PROCESSION.

  QUESTIONS.
  MR. CADOGANasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been drawn to the insecure nature of some of the private structures that are being erected for persons viewing the Royal procession on Tuesday next; and, if so, whether he proposes to order any official inspection of these structures?
  MR. BRUCEsaid, he had received no statement as to the insecurity of those structures. The whole matter, however, was under the special charge of the Metropolitan Board of Works, who, under the Metropolitan Buildings Act, had power to instruct their district surveyors to inspect the structures, and if any should be reported by them as insecure or in a dangerous condition, steps would be taken to have them removed, or put into a proper state at the expense of the owners. The Board had, accordingly, directed all the district surveyors to make a careful inspection of all the structures erected along the line of route, and they had asked for and obtained the assistance of the police in doing so.
  MR. KENNAWAYasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether it is true, as reported, that the State Procession to Saint Paul's on Tuesday next will consist only of the Royal carriages; or whether, seeing the preparations everywhere making to witness it, it is intended to invite the attendance of the Chief State Officials to accompany the procession?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I Lave, in pursuance of the Notice given me by the hon. Member for East Devon (Mr. Kennaway) yesterday, made inquiries of the Lord Chamberlain as to the arrangements which have actually been made, and they are, as I understand, as follows:—The procession will be in two principal portions, divided by a certain number of the military; and in the first of those portions there will be the carriages which convey and which will form the suite of the Speaker of the House of Commons, the Lord Chancellor, and the Duke of Cambridge. In the second, and principal portion of the procession, there will be nine State carriages, conveying the Sovereign, the Members of the Royal Family, and all those who will be in attendance upon them. That is all the information I can give upon the subject.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTONasked the First Lord of the Treasury, If Her Majesty's Government will, on the 27th instant, make such arrangements in the Public Offices as will enable as many of the servants of the Crown as possible to participate in the general Thanksgiving?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, in reply to the Question of the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton), which I think is framed in very reasonable and considerate terms, I have to state that authority will be given to the heads of the respective offices and departments to make such arrangements as are described in the Question.
  MR. W. H. SMITHasked the hon. and gallant Member for Truro, the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works, Whether his attention has been called to the serious inconvenience that will be occasioned to the inhabitants of the upper part of Park Lane, by the erection of a booth by the Board of Works, by which their view of the procession will be totally obstructed?
  COLONEL HOGGsaid, in reply to the Question of the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. W. H. Smith), that the structures now being put up in Hyde Park, through the kind permission of the Ranger, by the Metropolitan Board of Works, although they were intended for the accommodation of the vestrymen and the Local Boards—["Oh, oh!"]—yes, of the vestrymen and local boards who devoted so much time to their pub-
  950
  lic duties—notwithstanding that, the Board, taking into consideration the fact that these structures would entirely obstruct the view from a certain number of houses, had determined to send the inhabitants of these houses tickets of admission to the booth, as far as was practicable.
  LORD ELCHO, as a ratepayer, wished to ask the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works who was to pay for these erections by the Board of Works? ["Oh, oh!"] He was perfectly justified in asking whether the expense was to be paid out of the rates, or were the vestrymen to take tickets for the booth, and pay for them?
  COLONEL HOGGsaid, whenever any person had the honour to occupy a public position, it was always better that Notice of a Question like this should be given him. He should, however, give an explanation to the noble Lord. The cost of the erections in Hyde Park and on the Holborn Viaduct would come out of the rates of the Metropolis. Perhaps the House would allow him to add that of late these rates had been gradually decreasing.
  MR. PLUNKETsaid, it had come to his knowledge that there was to be a national Thanksgiving service on Tuesday next in St. Patrick's Cathedral, Dublin, at which his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was to be present in State, and he desired to know, Whether the Irish Executive intended making such arrangements in the public service as would enable as many of the Irish civil servants of the Crown as possible to participate in the general Thanksgiving?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he should have been glad to give the hon. and learned Gentleman the information he sought for had he possessed any on the subject of his Question; but he had heard nothing with reference to it, and therefore he was quite unable to give him an answer. He would, however, inquire what could be done before the Thanksgiving Day, and would forward any attempts that might be made to secure its due celebration in the City of Dublin.

NAVY—REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE OF DESIGNS ON SHIPS OF WAR.

  QUESTION.
  LORD HENRY SCOTTasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Why the dissentient Report of two members of the Committee of Designs on Ships of War has been presented as a separate Paper, and does not, as usual, follow immediately after the Report of the majority of the Committee, and form a part of the same Paper as presented on February 19th; and, whether, for the convenience of reference, instructions could not be given that they should be attached together in the usual form in those copies which have not yet been issued?
  MR. GOSCHENsaid, the dates of the Reports—namely, the 26th of July and the 14th of October, would show why they were not given together. Moreover, the Report of the two dissentient members of the Committee was really not a Report from the Committee at all, because they did not follow the usual course of presenting a Report, and having it discussed by the Committee, but they dissented from the Report; and, the Committee themselves being functi officio, the officers in question, two or three months afterwards, sent in a Report to the Admiralty criticizing the Report of the Committee, and stating their own views. Their Report was not a document emanating from the Committee at all.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT—SCHOOL ACCOMMODATION.—QUESTION.
MR. CARTERasked the Vice President of the Council, If instructions have been given by the Education Department to School Boards not to provide more school accommodation in their districts than the actual deficiency, calculated on the cubical contents of such accommodation required, without regard to the suitableness of the existing schools in respect of denominational teaching therein; and, whether the Inspectors of Schools have authority to represent that the Education Department are opposed to the establishment of new Board Schools in districts where the existing schools are found to be unsuitable to the requirements of the population in consequence of the denominational character of the teaching in such schools?
MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that no instructions had been given by the Education Department to school boards not to provide more school accommodation in their districts than the actual deficiency calculated on the cubical contents of such accommodation required, without regard to the suitableness of the existing schools in respect of denominational teaching therein, and that no authority had been given to the Inspectors of Schools to represent that the Education Department were opposed to the establishment of new board schools in districts where the existing schools were found to be unsuitable to the requirements of the population in consequence of the denominational character of the teaching in such schools; but he might state that it was the wish of the Department to leave as much as possible in the discretion of the school boards the mode of supplying the deficiency in school accommodation. The Education Department generally informed school boards that it considered the boards had power under the 18th and 19th sections of the Act to provide board schools on their own responsibility; but that if they wished to obtain the recommendation of the Department to the Public Loan Commissioners, with the view to obtaining a loan under Section 57 of the Act, inasmuch as the fund out of which that loan was to be made was a limited one, the Department thought it necessary to satisfy themselves that the money was really required for educational purposes before making such a recommendation. In so doing, the Department gave the utmost consideration to the statement of the representatives of the ratepayers. They had issued instructions to the Inspectors on the subject, and he would, in this instance, have no objection to lay them on the Table if the hon. Member should think fit to move for their production.

IRELAND—EXTRA POLICE IN MAYO.

  QUESTION.
  MR. G. BROWNEasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to relieve the Ratepayers of certain districts in the County of Mayo of the tax imposed upon them for maintaining an extra force of police?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTLNGTONsaid, that in 1870 the disturbed state of the county of Mayo made it necessary to increase the number of the constabulary under the Constabulary Act, and also to establish special stations under the Peace Preservation Act. Since that time, however, he was happy to say that the condition of the county had improved; and if it continued to improve he hoped very shortly to be able to make some material reduction in the constabulary force in that county.

JURY LAWS.—QUESTION.
MR. LOPESasked Mr. Attorney General, Whether he will be able to introduce his promised Bill for amending and consolidating the Law in respect to the summoning, attendance, and remuneration of Jurymen before Easter; and, if not before Easter, when?
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that, although the present state of the law relating to jurymen was not what could be desired, it was by no means easy to frame a remedy for the evils complained of. He would, however, bring the matter under the notice of the House as soon as possible, and in such a manner as he hoped would be satisfactory.

ROYAL PARKS AND GARDENS BILL.

  QUESTION.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSONasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether the Royal Parks and Gardens Bill will be proceeded with that night?
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that if it were the pleasure of the House not to proceed with the first Order of the Day, they would naturally proceed with the second Order of the Day.

  SUPPLY.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

LEA CONSERVANCY ACT (1868).

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. DIMSDALE, in rising to call the attention of the House to the operation of the Lea Conservancy Act, 1868, and to the heavy pecuniary burdens its provisions impose on the residents in the towns and villages situate on the
  954
  banks of the Lea and its tributaries, said, that in this case he had on three separate occasions—once in 1870, and twice in 1871—drawn the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department to the pollution of the river by sewage, and in reply had received the statement that the Government were giving the matter their attention; but nothing had been done by them to remove the grievances under which the residents of the places he had referred to were suffering. He was very much impressed with the idea that the small Conservancy Boards were very unsatisfactory; but now that it had been suggested in the Public Health Bill that the question of the pollution of rivers should be referred to the Local Boards, he could not see how the general measure which had been promised could be framed. The origin of the Lea Conservancy Board was owing to an idea which became very prevalent, that the outbreak of cholera in a portion of London in 1866 had been caused by the polluted condition of the water supplied from the Lea River; but Dr. Letheby, after a careful examination, had been unable to trace any portion of the disease to the use of the water. The result of the investigation, however, that was made about that time, had been that the Lea Conservancy Act of L868 was introduced, under which the residents on the watershed of the Lea were forbidden to drain into the river. The residents in Luton, Tottenham, and West Ham had, however, been treated very differently under that Act, for the towns above the intake of the water companies, with the exception of Luton, and Luton above the intake, were forbidden to deposit in the river any sewage matter, while the towns below it were allowed the benefit of special clauses; the Act thus throwing a very heavy expense on the former, and the landowners of the locality. In saying what he had said, he must not be represented as objecting to the water companies enjoying large dividends, or to the East-end of London obtaining pure water, but it was not fair that the cost of this should be thrown on third parties, and he was of opinion there should be a re-construction of that portion of the Act. Another hardship arising under the Lea Conservancy Act was, that it contained no standard of purity, and the Board had refused to

  955
  receive deputations, or to state what conditions would satisfy them, their arbitrary attitude contrasting strongly with the courtesy displayed by the Government authorities. No less than 98 notices had been issued by the Board to the towns and landed proprietors in the district. As there was no such standard laid down, the towns concerned would have to embark in an unknown expenditure. It was said that there would be great difficulty in laying down a standard of purity; but there were such standards laid down for the Thames in the Report of the Water Supply Commissioners of 1868, and in the Report of the Rivers Pollution Commissioners, presented to Parliament in 1870. The hon. Member quoted at length the standard of purity laid down by Captain Burstall in his evidence before the Water Supply Commission in 1868, laying down a definite standard of purity, the efficacy of which was guaranteed by Dr. Letheby, Dr. Odling, and Professor Frendland. He also read a quotation from the Report of the River Pollution Commission of 1870, laying down another and more stringent standard of purity, and argued from that it was quite possible to lay down such a standard without difficulty. The town of Hertford having been thus placed in a difficulty, had applied to the Conservancy Board time after time for an extension of the period for completing their works; and ultimately had to appeal to the Home Secretary. They asked for permission to borrow £3,000 for deodorizing works, such as would enable them to conform to the standard of purity of the Rivers Pollution Commissioners; but the Inspector sent down by the Board, had recommended them first of all to apply under the 77th section of the Local Government Act for a Provisional Order fixing a standard of purity as a rider to the Lea Conservancy Act. Relief in that or some other way ought certainly to be afforded them. Further than this, he wished to say that the constitution of the Lea Conservancy Board was faulty. He had been a member of that Board for two years, and he could say that there never was a more unmanageable Board constructed under an Act of Parliament. It was too small for representation, and too large for the transaction of business. The Lea Conservancy differed from the Thames Conservancy in this respect—
  956
  upon the former there were four members who represented the water companies; but there were no such representatives upon the Thames Board. Upon the Thames Conservancy Board the members were paid by the companies themselves for looking after their interests; but upon the Lea Board only the representatives of the water companies were paid, so that the members of the Board were partly paid and partly unpaid. It was also provided in the Lea Act that there should be five representatives of the riparian proprietors; but the result of the first election, so ill was the system framed, was that five traders were returned as representatives of the landed interest, and there was not a single landowner on the Board. Every land owner having two acres in land within 100 yards of the Lea and its tributaries, was entitled to a vote; but no proper safeguards were provided for ensuring a proper registration. In consequence, many bad votes had been placed on the register roll. The constituency was an unwieldy one, and its representative body was not accustomed to act, and the result of the election was, as he had described, altogether to nullify the intention of the powers of the Act. Hertford was especially hardly treated. Under the old system the Mayor of Hertford was ex-officio a trustee of the Lea navigation, but under the present system he had only one vote for a representative. Again, the chairman of the Local Boards returned one representative, but these chairmen were not in the habit of acting together, and it was really a matter of hap-hazard who was returned. As a remedy calculated to lessen the evils of which he complained, he wished—first, that a definite standard of purity should be fixed; next, that some security should be given that the water companies should contribute to the expenditure for their benefit; and, lastly, that the Local Board should be re-constituted.
  MR. H. COWPER, in supporting the views of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hertford (Mr. Dimsdale), said it was the duty of the Lea Conservancy Board to forbid offensive matter going into their river, but they gave no standard of purity for the effluent water; so that it was in their power to throw back such water upon any town, notwithstanding that the towns had constructed

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  works at great expense. What the towns concerned in the question wanted was, that something definite should be laid down for them, and that these enormous powers should not be held by the Lea Conservancy Board, or that the Government should step in and take them wholly away. The whole Board was re-elected every two years, so that they had no continuous existence, and it was not pretended than the members had any great scientific knowledge, or that they knew more of the requirements of modern science that the parish vestries and Local Boards with whom they were brought in contact. Another thing required was, that some person in authority should go down and sanction the local works which ought to be constructed. Hertford received £600 a-year from the New River Company, and nobody said that that was too much; but Ware, Stortford, Waltham, and Cheshunt were in a worse position, for they had the same task imposed upon them, but got no money at all. The towns were prepared so to conduct their works that the river should not be a nuisance; but if the interest of other people required it to be of higher purity, then they contended that those other people should pay for it. He thought it looked very like a hard case, if poor inhabitants of small villages were to be the first pioneers in river purification, as it seemed likely to be, if it was true as he understood, that the same system that was applied to the Lea River would some years later be applied to all the rivers in England.
  MR. BRUCEsaid, he hardly knew how it was that he found it necessary to answer the observations of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Dimsdale), because he had supposed that last year the question was transferred from his care to that of the President of the Board of Health. The Act complained of was introduced by the Board of Trade, and the Home Secretary was only introduced into it for two or three special purposes—such, for instance, as being arbitrator between the local authorities, and to extend the time for the completion of works to purify water passing into the river. This subject was one of the greatest importance to the inhabitants of London, because the two companies that supplied water from the River Lea supplied, he believed, no less
  958
  than half the population of London. The complaint made by the hon. Gentleman was that the measures taken by the Conservators for the purification of this water were such as acted arbitrarily and unfairly on the local authorities. Of course those who were not immediately connected with this district would be apt to think that the Conservators or their officers were only doing their duty in exacting a very rigid test of the purity of the water which supplied so large a portion of inhabitants of the metropolis. The hon. Gentleman opposite, moreover, complained both that the Board was not properly constituted and that their proceedings were arbitrary, inasmuch as they had no fixed standard of purity. With respect to the first point, it was thoroughly considered at the time of the passing of the Act, and no change could be made in that respect without giving the notices which were necessary for dealing with the question relating to sewage operations; while with respect to the second, the answer which he would give was very much that which was suggested but not approved by his hon. Friend (Mr. H. Cowper)—namely, that this was one of the first experiments in dealing with large basins for the supply of water. In any future legislation dealing with the subject, measures might be taken in respect to the River Lea. At present, however, it would be premature to make any change. The general question, however, of the pollution of rivers, he admitted, was one which required the most serious consideration of the Government. In respect to the standard of purity, he was informed that within the last nine months an Inspector had been appointed on the part of the Conservators of the River Lea, and that tests of purity were applied by him which experience had shown to be reasonable and necessary. The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Dimsdale) had referred to the test of purity suggested by the Commissioners on the Pollution of Rivers; but that was a test for water required for domestic purposes merely, and not for drinking purposes. It was the duty of the Conservators of the Lea to keep its waters fit not only for domestic purposes, but also for human consumption. It was not said that the tests applied were too severe; and he had been informed that the measures taken were

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  only such as a person whose duty it was to secure the public safety should resort to. As for the complaint that Luton, Tottenham, and West Ham had special exceptions, the reason of that was, that these places were engaged at the time in carrying out expensive works for preventing the pollution of the river, and the rest of the district was left to the ordinary operation of the law. In his opinion, no case had been made out for the interference of the Government. It was open to those who lived in the district to take any steps that were necessary for their own defence; but the Government had no evidence that the Conservators who were acting in the public interest were resorting to more rigorous measures than it was their duty to do. It was suggested that the water companies who profited so much by the purification of the river should contribute something to the expense. This they already did to a limited extent; but the proper principle was that the water and every stream should be pure enough for the inhabitants to drink, and the companies required no more than that standard of purity which the inhabitants themselves had a right to demand.
  MR. A. SMITHsaid, that what his constituents required was a standard of purity, for they had been compelled to expend considerable sums of money in purifying the water of the river, and yet they had no means of ascertaining whether they had complied with the requirements of the Act or not. He thought it a great hardship that this expenditure should be incurred entirely for the benefit of the metropolis, and for the water companies, who derived large profits from their undertakings. He thought that some time ought to be allowed to elapse, to test the result of the experiments which were being carried on with the view to ascertain the best plan of dealing with the sewage. The Act compelled them to prevent the sewage passing into the River Lea; but it did not say what they were to do with it, and time ought to be given to ascertain the best means of disposing of it.
  MR. STEPHEN CAVEsaid, as he had, on behalf of the Board of Trade, brought in the Bill on the subject in 1868, he wished to say a few words. The Bill was what was called a hybrid Bill, and was afterwards referred to a Committee as a Private Bill. The Com-
  960
  mittee was composed of 10 Members, five of whom were chosen by the House, and five by the Committee of Selection. Every interest was represented before the Committee, and counsel were heard on behalf of most of them. The Committee deliberated for a considerable time, and if any of the districts did not represent their case, it was their own fault. At the same time he was ready to confess, as he said at the time, that the case of Hertfordshire, of the riparian owners, and the towns on the banks of the river Lea, was excessively hard. The Duke of Richmond and himself had received many deputations on the subject, and while they admitted that their case was a hard one, they did not see how they could get them out of the difficulty. In the first place, they were compelled to close their cesspools, into which they formerly drained, and to drain into the river. That was the recommendation of Chadwick's Commission. Then, according to the recommendation of a subsequent Commission, they were prevented from using the river at all for such purposes. They asked what, under the circumstances, they were to do—and they were recommended by some to purify their sewage by various expensive processes, or to take sewage farms. Other suggestions were also made, but in the present experimental stage of the sewage question, he thought it would be dangerous for Parliament to commit itself to any course of which time had not proved the advantage. It was in consequence of the outbreak of cholera in the East of London, that the Act was passed, and for the sake of the public health it was necessary that the water should be kept pure. The case, as he said, was one of considerable hardship; but if it were possible, as was now proposed, to fix a standard of purity for the water, without insisting upon any particular works, that would be very reasonable.
  MR. BRANDsaid, he would also suggest that the standard of purity should be fixed. The inhabitants had no desire to shirk their responsibility or their duty—all that they asked was that they should be distinctly informed what they were to do in order to comply with the requirements of the Act. He hoped that some further consideration would be given to the case of those who were admittedly subject to a great hardship,

  961
  and that, at least, the Act would be so amended as to enable them to appeal to some central authority.
  MR. KAY-SHUTTLEWORTHthought that, in legislating for the conservancy of rivers, it was desirable that they should have a clear idea what object they had in view. They might have one of two objects—they might merely intend so to purify the matters thrown into the river as to render the river decent in appearance, free from offensive odour, and capable of supporting the life of fish; or they might aim at making the water of the river potable. It was admitted by his hon. Friend (Mr. Brand) that in the case of the Lea, it would be impossible to prevent the effluent matter from the sewage of Hertford, and other places, from ultimately reaching the river. Under these circumstances it was a mistake to give the water companies of London a representation on the Lea Conservancy Board. Such an arrangement was based on a wrong theory. For no efforts of these companies could render the water of the River Lea fit for drinking after it had passed through towns; and river water polluted by sewage had, according to the reports of Dr. Simon and other authorities, been a means of bringing cholera into London in the epidemics of 1854 and 1866. The Conservators should not be bound to do more than carry out the recommendations of the Rivers Pollution Commission, who reported that after river water had thus been made inodorous and clear, it would still be unfit for human consumption. He hoped that the House would some day come to the conclusion that the water supply of a great city should be obtained either from the head-waters of rivers or pure springs.
  MR. AYRTONhoped it would not go forth that the inhabitants of the metropolis were in danger of being attacked by cholera in consequence of drinking the waters of the River Lea. As Chairman of the Committee on the River Lea Bill, he had heard all the evidence that had been given by the medical men and others, and the conclusion of the Committee was, that if reasonable care and precaution were taken, the water of the Lea was perfectly fit to drink, and that there was not the least necessity to go to other sources for supplies. It was a great mistake, he might add, to suppose that any injustice was done by the Bill
  962
  either to the towns or the landowners of Hertfordshire; nor could he conceive any better mode of obtaining an intelligent Board than by having its members elected by the chief gentlemen of the county; and the result was, that the Board was fully qualified to take all the accessory precautions to prevent any sewage from being unnecessarily let into he river. The water companies, moreover, were represented at the Board for he reason that they had placed a very large sum of money at the disposal of he Conservancy, and had therefore a right to see that the money was properly expended. The three towns referred to by the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Dimsdale) had taken steps to prevent the pollution of the river; but the other towns of the district had taken no trouble whatever to prevent the flow of sewage into the river, but left the matter to the ordinary operation of the law. Those towns and the towns on the Thames were placed precisely on the same footing, and there was not, therefore, the smallest reason for supposing that the water of the Thames was not fit to drink. On the contrary, it was peculiarly fit to drink; and he could conceive nothing more injurious than that a contrary idea should be spread abroad by those who wanted them to go for their water supplies to the lakes of Cumberland or Wales. One of the objections to that course was, that the metropolis might, by a casualty to the aqueduct, be deprived of water for drinking or for any other purposes. That would be a catastrophe of a most alarming character. The present system was infinitely better than such a suggestion, and afforded an assurance against an interruption of supply. The evidence was pretty clear that the cholera was brought into the port of London from Amsterdam, and that it was in no way to be attributed to the water supply of the metropolis.

THE EX-NAWAB OF TONK.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  SIR CHARLES WINGFIELD, in rising to bring the case of the ex-Nawab of Tonk under the notice of the House, and to move—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to refer the case of the Ex-Nawab of Tonk for consideration by the

  963
  Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, under the provisions of the 3rd and 4th Will. 4, c. 41, s. 4, commonly called the Privy Council Act,"
  said, he hoped no remark he might have to make would be understood to cast reflection on the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote), for whom he entertained the highest respect, and especially respected in his capacity as Secretary of State for India; and he also felt it to be a great relief to know that, in the observations which he was about to make, he need not call in question in the slightest degree the conduct of the lamented Nobleman who had so recently fallen a victim in India by the hands of an assassin. Tonk, like many other Indian States, was a feudatory of the British Empire in India, but it was so far independent that the inhabitants were not amenable to British law or authority, but lived under the sway of their native Princes, though the latter were responsible to the British Government for the proper administration of their territories. The Indian Government was therefore bound to take cognizance of this case. On the part of the ex-Nawab he did not complain of that, but of the manner in which the inquiry was conducted, which disregarded the first principles of justice, and was a ground for a reconsideration of the case. The collision between the Tonk and Lawa people which led to the loss of life that took place had been variously described, the story upon the Lawa side being that they had been invited to come to the Minister's house, and had been set upon and slain; while upon the other side it was stated that they had gone there on their own account, had behaved in a most insulting manner, that their deaths occurred in the affray which ensued, and that the Nawab, who was not present, was not in the slightest degree accountable for what had occurred. It took place on the 1st of August, 1867, and on the 8th Captain Roberts, a political agent, went to Tonk. He says he made no judicial investigation, but gives his opinion that there had been treachery on the Tonk side At first he did not think that the Nawab was cognizant of what had been done, but he had afterwards come to the conclusion that the act could not have been committed without his knowledge. As Captain Roberts had, however, merely based his opinion on conversations, the
  964
  House would probably attach no great weight to his report. On the 14th of August following, Captain Bruce, another political agent, arrived on the spot to make an investigation, and he reported on the 26th to his superior, Colonel Eden. Both those officers agreed in thinking that there was no judicial evidence against the Nawab, although they were of opinion that the Lawa people had been entrapped and murdered, and that the Nawab was privy to the design. But while Captain Bruce was of opinion that it was not his intention to kill them, but simply to secure their persons, Colonel Eden thought the intention was to take their lives. The Government of India, concurring in the view taken by Colonel Eden, sent home a despatch to the Secretary of State, and by him the sentence of deposition passed on the Nawab was confirmed. The only witnesses of what had occurred were the parties to the conflict themselves, and it was obvious that it was of great importance for the purpose of eliciting the truth in the matter—for the statements were conflicting—that the interior of the building should be examined with the view of seeing whether it had any marks of blood or conflict. No such step had, however, been taken. Captain Bruce did not visit the interior of the building. He only described the appearance of the inner and outer enclosures, where he could discern no such marks, and the crucial test was not, therefore, applied. But, eight months after the Nawab had been deposed, Captain Blair, happening incidentally to visit Tonk, was invited by the Council of Regency to inspect the interior, and was shown marks of blood and bullet perforations in the walls of the apartments. But if all traces of blood were removed in the one case, why were they not also removed in the other? His experience of the lengths to which native artifice and duplicity would go, coupled with the fact that this visit was paid when the enemies of the Nawab were in power, led him to believe that these marks were fabricated in order to impose upon Captain Blair. The Nawab never received intimation that if the occurrence should turn out to be murder, he would be held responsible for the consequences, or warning that he should stand on his defence. Therefore, relying on his innocence, if innocent; or if guilty, on his

  965
  right as an independent Prince to coerce a refractory vassal, for he (Sir Charles Wingfield) was careful, as he had said before, not to pronounce an opinion on this point, the Nawab contented himself with sending a letter to the Viceroy, giving his account of the affair. Moreover, it was not pretended by anyone that the Nawab was present at the occurrence. Assuming then, as did Colonel Eden and Captain Bruce, that there had been treachery and murder, still the evidence of the Nawab's guilt was founded solely on the presumption in the minds of those officers that the act could not have been committed without his sanction. Therefore, the first rules of justice required that he should be furnished with the reports made by Captain Bruce and Colonel Eden, which constituted the sole evidence against him; but it was not until one year after the Nawab had been deposed, that he was able to obtain copies of these reports. It might be said that his agent was present at the examination of the witnesses, and was allowed to cross-examine them. But Captain Bruce himself said that the evidence of the native doctor and his assistant was taken privately, and that information against the Nawab was in like manner secretly obtained from his relations and other gentlemen. Nevertheless, evidence procured in this objectionable manner was allowed to influence the minds alike of Captain Bruce, Colonel Eden, and the Governor General. This was the first time that he had ever known an Indian Prince condemned without knowing the charge that was brought against him and having an opportunity of defending himself, and he thought the case might very properly be referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, who could then advise Her Majesty to reverse or modify the decision of the Secretary of State. No doubt the British Government, in its capacity as paramount Power, was bound to take cognizance of these acts, and it was also free to entrust the inquiry to whom it pleased. But, considering the great difficulty and obscurity of the ease, some competent judicial officers ought to have been associated with Colonel Eden and Captain Blair in the investigation, and forms of procedure held to be essential safeguards of justice should have been scrupulously observed in order to in-
  966
  sure for the accused a fair trial. It was monstrous that a native Prince should be placed in a worse position than the humblest British subject, when accused of a criminal offence. Last Session he was taken to task for passing a reflection upon political officers. What he said was, that they were most unfit persons to conduct such an investigation. But if he had said that diplomatists were ill-qualified to sit as Judges no aspersion would have been thereby cast upon them. It was clear from what Colonel Eden wrote on the 14th of August, that before the inquiry commenced, he was discussing the punishment. He trusted the plea would not be raised in opposition to this Motion, that it was necessary to support our authority in India; because if that argument was carried to its legitimate conclusion, there was no remedy for injustice done in India. Authority should only be supported when in the right, not when in the wrong. To support authority when in the wrong was not to uphold it, but to weaken it, by depriving it of the respect of the governed. In corroboration of that view, Sir Bartle Frere, formerly a Member of the Government of India, expressed an opinion 10 years ago, to the effect that there should be a tribunal formed in connection with the Privy Council, to which any native might, if aggrieved, have the right to appeal. Since he had had the honour of a seat in that House, he had shown no disposition to take up grievances, and this was the first case of the kind he had interfered in, though not the first in which he had been asked to interfere. He had only brought forward this Motion, therefore, because he felt deeply that if this Prince be refused what was due to every accused person, a fair hearing and opportunity of defending himself, the confidence of the Princes of India in the justice and good feeling of this country would be seriously impaired, while every native Prince would feel that he might at any time fall a victim to a cabal, or the prejudice of local functionaries, and would tremble for the security of his possessions. He would now conclude by moving the Resolution of which he had given Notice.
  MR. R. N. FOWLER, in seconding the Motion, said, he preferred it to one which he made last Session, when he introduced the question before the

  967
  House, especially as his hon. Friend's acquaintance with Indian affairs and the high position he had filled in India rendered him so competent to deal with the subject. So long as an investigation was instituted, it mattered not whether it was conducted by a Committee of the House, as he proposed last year, or by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which his hon. Friend now proposed, except for the fact that the eminent lawyers in the House were too much engaged in their own practice to give due attention to any labours which might be assigned to them as Members of a Select Committee. It was for this latter reason that he thought his hon. Friend's (Sir Charles Wingfield's) Motion an improvement on his own. Every hon. Member must feel considerable anxiety in regard to the affairs of India at the present time. Whenever the Indian Budget was brought in, they always found great difficulty prevailed in connection with the finances. The only remedy he could see for that state of things was to attempt a reduction of the military expenditure which was consequent upon keeping so large a force in India. If the Army there were reduced, we should hear no more of deficits, and the finances might then be placed on a satisfactory basis. This reduction, however, could hardly be looked for so long as we were not on friendly terms with the native Princes. He did not know how far the rumours were well founded as to the feelings of the Mahomedans of India; though he was glad to learn that that great man, whose untimely tragic death they all deplored, had won their confidence; but if they had any grievances to redress, it was worthy consideration whether they might not fairly appeal to the Government for an investigation into the matter. He was glad to see by a paper he held in his hand, that in a recent Kooka outbreak the army of a native Prince had stood loyally by our Government. The Nawab of Tonk was a Mahomedan; and the House would, perhaps, agree with him as to the importance of the Government doing what they could to cultivate any friendly feeling which the Princes of India might exhibit towards them. For his part, he believed that the people of that country were disposed to be faithful to the British Government; and it was, at any rate, highly
  968
  necessary, for the maintenance of that loyalty, that we should fully adhere to the terms of the Proclamation issued by Her Majesty when the present Earl of Derby was Secretary of State, since the people of India regarded that Proclamation as their Magna Charta. He had received a copy of a letter on this subject, written by one whose name was widely known—Dr. Russell, the War Correspondent of The Times during the Indian Mutiny, as on many other occasions. Dr. Russell says—
  "As a Christian State we can never either civilize in our own way, evangelize in any way, or secure in their allegiance to the Queen, the people of India until we keep our compacts and our promises in regard to the Princes of India without equivocation or subterfuge, and set an example of honourable dealing and of lofty principle which may have its effect on them, and which alone is compatible with the holy mission of which we preach and speak. 'Quid prosunt leges sine moribus?' No cause can prosper unless its advocates show by their acts that they have faith in their professions, and are under the influence of their doctrines; and the dangers with which our rule in India may he threatened will be augmented just in proportion as we educate the people and enable them to detect discrepancies between the creed announced and the practice adopted by their rulers. I am satisfied that if we secure the fidelity of the Princes of India by just government and faithful adherence to treaties and agreements, we shall best promote the maintenance of our power and content the people at large."
  Now, the course which had been adopted in regard to the Nawab of Tonk was calculated to alienate the Princes of India; for they could not help feeling how uncertain their position was when one of their number had been deposed without a fair trial. It was admitted that the investigation had not been conducted by a tribunal of lawyers, but by young officers of no judicial experience, who, however well-meaning, might have taken a prejudiced view. His hon. Friend's Motion put the question fairly before the House, and if the House adopted it, the impression would go forth to the people of India that the Government were ever ready to remedy the grievances of any of Her Majesty's subjects, and the House could not shut its eyes to what might be the effect on the minds of the people of India of a native Prince being condemned in such a manner. The hon. Member concluded by seconding the Motion.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to refer the case of the Ex-Nawab of Tonk for consideration by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, under the provisions of the Act of the 3rd and 4th Will. 4, c. 41, s. 4, commonly called the Privy Council Act,"—(Sir Charles Wingfield,)
  —instead thereof.
  MR. GRANT DUFF: Sir, before I come to the question whether this case should be referred to the Privy Council, there is a preliminary question that ought to be asked and answered. Does it require to be referred to any tribunal whatsoever? Has it not been settled, and re-settled, and settled yet again by the tribunal best fitted to settle it? The fallacy that vitiates the view that has been taken of the Tonk case by some hon. Gentlemen who spoke last year, as well as by the two hon. Members who have just addressed the House is this—they treat the action of the Indian Government as if it could have been judicial in the strict and technical sense. But that is not so. Its action was political, and must have been political. The ex-Nawab of Tonk was no subject of ours. He was a semi-independent Prince of the class usually and conveniently, but loosely and most misleadingly, described as feudatory. We had not in relation to him rights identical with those which, when the feudal system was in its glory, the liege lords of Western Europe claimed over their vassals. Our rights in relation to our so-called feudatories are rights partly defined by treaties, partly dependent on the necessary influence of power and civilization in contact with backward societies, and partly dependent upon the fact that our supremacy makes revolt against those personages impossible, and consequently obliges us in honour and conscience to prevent misgovernment becoming altogether intolerable. The ex-Nawab of Tonk was not, as a true feudatory would have been, subject to his lord's court, neither was he arraigned by us for a crime against our municipal law. If he had been, I am afraid that his neck would have been in very great and very deserved danger. He was proceeded as a small semi-independent Potentate who had committed political of-
  970
  fence against the Pax Britannica, who had done an act which, if only often enough repeated, would cover India with blood and confusion. He was deposed for having commenced and carried through to the bitter end a small private war against a neighbour, whose relations with him had only a year or two before been anxiously and carefully defined by the British Government. If there had been any room for a strictly judicial procedure, a judicial procedure would have taken place. But the scene of the offence was a remote native State, which knew nothing of our Courts or Judges, and where the ruler had just given a terrible proof of how little the ordinary course of justice was compatible with his sovereignty. The procedure which we did adopt was the only procedure possible—the sending to the spot the best and acutest officers whom we had in that part of India to investigate all the circumstances while they were still recent. It is complained that the ex-Nawab did not see the depositions; but, I repeat, this proceeding was not a judicial one, and there were no technical rules which it was necessary to follow. Substantial justice had, of course, to be done, and it was done. The Nawab knew perfectly well the evidence of his own carefully tutored witnesses, and as for the other witnesses he had the fullest opportunity of cross-examining them by his own vakeel, or agent, a power of which he availed himself; and he himself admitted, both verbally to Captain Bruce and through his vakeel, that he had no more evidence in his own favour to produce. The only marvel was that, under the circumstances, witnesses should have been found to dare to speak against him at all. That any were found shows how strong is the support which British influence can give to the weaker party, even in the lion's den itself. The pettiness of the Tonk State, which is just twice the size of Lanarkshire, and the small number of the persons killed, misleads hon. Members; but suppose that the offender—the raiser of private war—had been a person higher in the scale of Indian Princes, suppose that one of the greater Potentates of the Peninsula—I will name no names—had begun and carried through a private war on a somewhat larger scale, would the House of Commons have insisted that, before we marched a force against

  971
  him and punished him for so great a scandal, he should see the depositions? I have shown that the case not being a judicial one, it could not he in reason expected that all the forms proper to judicial proceedings should be followed; but will any man maintain that there was not a full examination? What do you call a full examination? This case was just seven times examined by separate authorities, and amongst those authorities were included some of the ablest men whom you ever had in India. The House will, I trust, bearing in mind the fact that Her Majesty's Government had not in the debate of last year, which came on it may be remembered at a late hour, the opportunity of saying one single word about the case, allow me to state its real facts. The deposed Nawab of Tonk was the grandson of a notorious Pindaree or brigand leader, who, like the rest of his detestable fraternity, inflicted many calamities upon India in the first and second decades of this century. We made a treaty with him in 1817, and ever since he and his family have ruled over a small principality in Rajpootana. Taking advantage of some expressions in British official reports, the advocates of this man, who have been very busy in putting his case before the English public, and one of whom has circulated amongst hon. Members of this House, an amusing, but impudent little book, called, A Pilgrimage to the Caaba and Charing Cross, have represented him as a highly meritorious Ruler. That statement is not correct, and to show what he really was, I will read an extract from an account of him by the Governor General's agent in Rajpootana, written in June, 1867—that is, just before the events happened which we are investigating to-night—
  "The administration of the Nawab does not lack in vigour, and the energy with which His Highness visits in person at all seasons of the year the outlying districts of Tonk is praiseworthy, presenting a marked contrast with the apathetic indifference evinced generally by the Rulers of Rajpootana in all matters of personal supervision. But, at the same time, I am compelled to record that these periodical visits are dreaded rather than hailed by the subjects of the State. Judging from the experience of the past, they are regarded as precursors of a money demand in some shape or form. Shortly after His Highness's accession to the chiefship, a heavy hand was laid on all classes throughout the State, whether thakoors, ryots, or merchants. Latterly, the Nawab has been more moderate, and, to a certain
  972
  extent, public confidence has been restored. But nevertheless the trade in Tonk itself, which was formerly very large, has suffered considerably. There can be no doubt, moreover, that the chief's ultra-Mahomedan proclivities render him unpopular amongst his Hindoo subjects. The building of Hindoo temples is said to be interdicted, and even the repair of those in existence to be discountenanced. The late Nawab was most orthodox in his tenets, but a freedom of action was nevertheless accorded to those not of his faith, but living under his sway. The absence of all, except Mahomedans, whether in the army, or in the civil offices of the State, exhibits a bigotry strangely contrasting with the liberality displayed in the surrounding Rajpoot Principalities, in one and all of which persons of every creed are to be found in employment."
  The ex-Nawab of Tonk had been for a long time on bad terms with his principal feudatory, the Thakoor of Lawa, in whose veins flowed the bluest blood of the Rajpoots, and who was, of course, a Hindoo, while the Nawab of Tonk was, as we have seen, a Mahomedan. They were, as might have been expected, perpetually quarrelling, and faults were committed on both sides. But in the same report which I have just quoted, the Governor General's agent in Rajpootana, Colonel Eden, thus describes the state of their relations—
  "Ever since the Thakoor has, I believe, honestly endeavoured to observe his duty and obligations towards his chief; but the Nawab, on the contrary, has sought to bring about a fresh disturbance by means more plausible than truthful or creditable; and at this present time His Highness desires to confiscate half the Lawa estate, on the grounds that the Thakoor's Sunnud, granted by the Maharajah of Jeypore early in the 18th century, does not entitle him to the land he now holds."
  Such was the state of affairs when, in an evil hour for himself, the ex-Nawab thought that he would cut the Gordian knot of all difficulties with his powerful vassal, by improving him or his chief counsellor and supporter off the face of creation, and hence the terrible occurrences of the 1st August, 1867. The hon. Member for Penrhyn (Mr. R. N. Fowler) told us last year his version of what happened that night—a version founded chiefly on the evidence of Hafiz Ahmed, a follower of the ex-Nawab, and the author of the book I have alluded to, who professes to have been upon the spot, but who gave his so-called evidence here in London unsworn, before no authority, and not under cross-examination; whereas, the evidence on which the late Secretary of State relied, was taken at Tonk, im-

  973
  mediately after the event, before authority, under cross-examination, and was sworn. What really occurred was this—The ex-Nawab of Tonk having invited to his capital the Thakoor of Lawa with his uncle, who was his chief adviser, for the Thakoor himself took little active part in the management of his affairs, sent a message requesting them to go on the evening of the 1st August, 1867, to discuss some business with his Prime Minister, in the house of his Prime Minister. Thither the uncle went with a party of attendants, undeterred by the rumours which were rife in the town that treachery was intended; and no sooner had they got within the walls of the house than they were surrounded by a superior force, and, with one single exception, cut to pieces. There were 15 of them killed, while on the Tonk side only one man fell. The Thakoor, luckily for him, stayed at home, and was not murdered; but his house was surrounded by armed men to prevent his escape, and a force was sent off that very night with scaling ladders to attack Lawa, the real head of which fell when the uncle of the Thakoor met his death in the house of the Tonk Prime Minister. The hon. Member wants to inquire whether the recognized principles of justice were attended to; but what does justice require in such a case but the fullest investigation possible? Had the case not that investigation? Let us see. The chain of opinion against the ex-Nawab, which I am going to cite, will show whether or not the matter was fully, fairly, carefully investigated. It extends from the subordinate political officer, who investigated the matter on the spot, eight days after the occurrence, up to two Governors General, and two Secretaries of State, with their respective Councils. It is unbroken, and it is unanimous in all really essential points. I say really essential points, to show that I am not forgetting the point about Captain Bruce, to which the hon. Member for Gravesend alluded. The first opinion that I shall cite is that of Captain Roberts—a political and diplomatic officer of merit—one of those political officers to whom, as much as to any other men, we owe our Eastern Empire. He was sent eight days after the occurrence of the 1st August, 1867, to investigate the case, and his opinion was as follows:—
  974
  "From all I have heard, I have no doubt in my own mind, that the Lawa party were treacherously inveigled and attacked. At first, I thought the Nawab was not cognizant of the affair; but I have since changed my mind."
  The next opinion I shall cite is that of a very distinguished officer now, as I have mentioned, unhappily, dead—Captain Bruce, the political agent at Harrowtee, who was sent to Tonk a week or two later, and who thus expresses his opinion of the evidence, in a letter to the agent to the Governor General in Rajpootana, dated the 13th September, 1867—after giving the ex-Nawab the fullest opportunity of appearing by counsel, and of cross-examining the hostile witnesses, and of calling his son, all of which he did—
  "It remains to decide which story is most likely to be true. I must frankly confess I believe Lawa; and if my credulity in this instance does injustice to Tonk, I can only urge that the nature of their defence throughout, and the manner in which it has been supported, are calculated to induce scepticism as to their veracity."
  Next I come to Colonel Eden, the agent of the Governor General in Rajpootana, who in a letter to the Secretary to the Government, dated 6th of September, enclosing Capt. Bruce's report, and reviewing the case, writes as follows:—
  "Taking the Tonk version of the case, either in whole or in part, we cannot but be convinced of its untruthfulness throughout.
  "His Excellency in Council will not fail to observe that the Nawab's own uncle and his own brother secretly admitted to Mr. Bruce the truth of the conclusion arrived at; they only endeavoured to palliate the conduct of the Nawab and Hakeem Surwur Shah, in so far that they deny that there was any intention of butchering Rewut Sing and those who accompanied him, and declare that the arrest of the party was all that was desired; that through failure, or bungling in execution, such deplorable results ensued.
  "In short, it appears to me that, whilst there is no evidence whatever to support the conclusion that a massacre was not intended, there is very strong reason to believe it was; and I am of opinion that Captain Roberts, in his demi-official letter of the 9th ult., submitted to Government on the 14th idem, correctly estimated the causes and arguments which induced the perpetration of so foul an outrage.
  "I feel convinced the Hakeem would never have attempted to carry out the plot without the consent and approval of his master; and we may further rest satisfied that this deed of blood would never have been transacted, unless all the actors had been assured of their Chief's tacit consent, and were promised his full support, whatever happened. The Nawab's subsequent conduct and action fully support this belief. Not the slightest regret has been expressed for what occurred; but, on the contrary,

  975
  witnesses have been suborned and false statements set forth, and Surwur Shah and his myrmidoms backed to the fullest extent. The Nawab's connivance in the scheme to entrap the Lawa party by treachery has been admitted by his nearest relations, and is fully borne out by the evidence; and the mind that can approve of one kind of foul play has not far to step when acceding to another."
  Before I come to the opinion of Colonel Eden's superiors—to the opinion of the Governor General in Council, I wish to dispose of the allegation that Lord Lawrence merely followed the opinion of his subordinate officers. No allegation could be more improbable on the face of it; but, so far from this being the case, this Tonk case was considered with quite peculiar care, and Lord Lawrence delayed announcing his decision till he communicated with the Secretary of State, because he wished to be quite sure of his support, since, if by any chance the proceedings were overruled at home, it would have been a great blow to our influence in India.
  My hon. Friend may rest assured that the deposition of the ex-Nawab of Tonk has been hailed as a just and righteous act by all honest men amongst the natives of India. They do not ask whether the ex-Nawab was deposed on the recommendation of a Judge or of a political officer. The honest men among the natives of India, who know the story, I say, do not ask whether we decided on deposing him after a judicial or a political investigation; they ask simply whether the act of the paramount Power was just and righteous, and they say that it was just and righteous. They say that the Tonk Ruler only acted like his grandfather, and that his grandfather would well have deserved the same fate. Does the hon. Gentleman opposite, who first brought forward this case, know what the grandfather did? If he does not, I will tell him, that he may judge whether the murder of the Lawa people by this innocent lamb of a client of his was an improbable act. I quote from Colonel Tod's Annals of Rajasthan—
  "A spacious tent was pitched in the centre of his camp for the reception of his guests" who belonged, I may mention, to a rival faction in Marwar. "The visitors were received with the most distinguished courtesy; turbans were again exchanged; the dancing girls were introduced, and nothing but festivity was apparent. The Khan arose, and making an excuse to his guests for a momentary absence, retired. The dancing continued, when, at a given signal, down sunk the tent upon the unsuspicious Rajpoots, who fell an
  976
  easy prey to the ferocious Pathans. Forty-two chieftains were thus butchered in the very sanctuary of hospitality. Their adherents, taken by-surprise, were slaughtered by the soldiery, or by cannon charged with grape as they fled."
  For this exploit, which took place in 1808, the grandfather received £100,000, two large towns, and some other rewards. If 60 years after the grandson, for a humble but successful imitation of the act, has not received a similar reward, it is not the fault of the hon. Gentleman. I come next to the opinion of the Governor General and his Council, from whose despatch, dated the 23rd September, 1867, I quote the following:—
  "We have read, and considered with care and anxious deliberation all the evidence in this case, and it is with pain that we have come to the conclusion that the view taken by our agent is fully substantiated; that the uncle and cousin of the Lawa chief, with their followers, were basely and treacherously murdered by Hakeem Surwur Shah; and that this was done at the instigation of the Nawab himself. We are unanimous in the opinion that it was for this purpose the chief and his followers were summoned from Lawa to present themselves at Tonk. We do not credit that the chief's uncle repaired of his own motion on the night of the tragedy to Surwur Shah's house; it seems certain that he was summoned. Nor do we believe that it was intended simply to seize him and his followers; on the contrary, we feel convinced that it was intended to murder them."
  This is signed by Sir John Lawrence, Sir William Mansfield, Mr. Taylor, Mr. Massey, Sir Henry Durand, and Sir George Yule. Then follows the opinion of the right hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote), and his Council, and from their despatch of the 15th November, 1867, I quote as follows:—
  "Whether, as Colonel Eden believes, the murder was contemplated from the first, or whether, as Captain Bruce supposes, the original intention was to arrest the Thakoor and his followers, and to seize Lawa, it is plain that a deliberate act of gross treachery, which resulted in the assassination of 15 persons, has been committed, and that the Nawab must have been himself a party to it. You are unanimously of opinion that the view taken by Colonel Eden is fully substantiated, and I see no reason to doubt that you have arrived at a right conclusion."
  I come next to the opinion of Lord Mayo and his Council, expressed in a despatch dated the 13th March, 1869, from which it will be enough to quote the words—
  "We need hardly say that there is nothing in the Memorial which should lead us in any way to modify the opinion of the Government of India already expressed on this case."
  This was signed by Lord Mayo, Sir Henry Maine, and Mr. Strachey, as well as by

  977
  one of those who signed the former despatch—Sir Henry Durand, so there were nine independent opinions. I shall next quote the opinion of Captain Blair, the political officer, sent, at a later period, to take charge of Tonk, by Lord Lawrence. Captain Blair, writing on the 26th June, 1868, to Colonel Keatinge, the agent of the Governor General, for Rajpootana, says—
  "It is notorious in Tonk, and is openly stated by everyone here, that Goolab Khan was the only individual on the part of the assailants who was killed on that occasion, instead of seven, as set forth by the ex-Nawab. This can be most conclusively proved now."
  And, again—
  "Residing at Tonk, I have necessarily heard many particulars of the manner and circumstances under which the treachery was planned, and the massacre transacted, for the matter is generally spoken of. The very exclamations of Thakoor Rewut Singh, when being butchered, are made a matter of conversation; and it seems to me, therefore, little short of marvellous that the ex-Nawab should still attempt by hard swearing to foist on the Government a story so utterly false and incredible."
  The case, as the House will see, was considered and settled, and re-considered and re-settled by the late Government. It has been re-reconsidered and re-resettled by the present Government. On the 10th August, 1869, my noble Friend the present Secretary of State for India wrote to Lord Mayo—
  "After a careful examination of all the evidence advanced upon both sides, I cannot discern any sufficient grounds for departing from the opinion which your Excellency's Government has expressed with respect to the guilty complicity of the Nawab in the murderous outrage which resulted in his banishment to Benares."
  If there ever was a case which received anxious and careful and impartial attention, this, I think, is that case.
  I trust I have shown that it does not require to be referred to any tribunal whatever; but I am sure that whether it does or does not, it cannot be referred to the tribunal to which my hon. Friend desires to refer it. My hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend's Motion is founded on a very natural, but a very complete, misconception of the meaning of a clause in the Privy Council Act. That clause simply gives power to Her Majesty to refer to a particular Committee of the Council, matters which would naturally come before the Queen in Council. It gives no power whatever to refer to the Judicial Committee anything whatsoever
  978
  which does not naturally come before the Queen in Council. I say this with the more confidence because, a short time ago, we fell into the same mistake at the India Office into which my hon. Friend has fallen, and we tried to refer to the Judicial Committee a difficult question which had arisen. The acting Lord President of the Council, however, utterly refused to have anything to do with it, and his view was sustained by legal authority which we could not gainsay. However that may be, I can hardly conceive a question less suitable than this for discussion by that august tribunal, which is accustomed to deal with matters of a totally different character, and to deal with them upon appeal from regularly constituted Courts sitting in India. Even if the clause quoted by my hon. Friend meant what he thinks it means, the Judicial Committee would be very unwilling to exercise the power with which my hon. Friend would like to see it invested. If he thinks otherwise, let him look at the case of the "Queen v. Joy Kissen Mookerjee" in Moore's Reports, vol. ix., and he will find admirably set forth by Dr. Lushington, the fatal results which would follow if there were a right of appeal to the Privy Council in criminal cases occurring in India. How much worse would it be if the Judicial Committee had jurisdiction conferred upon it in a case which only looks like a criminal case, but is really a political one. But I cannot believe that the House will ever arrive at the consideration of the question, whether the Judicial Committee is a proper body to investigate matters of this kind. I believe it will answer in the affirmative the previous question which I have raised—will declare, that is, that this matter requires no further investigation—that it has been sifted to the bottom. I am sure, if it does not do so, that it will strike a blow at the authority of its officers in India who are intrusted with the duty of dealing with native States such as has never been struck before. The first result of so unfortunate a decision will be to give a truly terrible stimulus to the manufacture of sham grievances on the part of a host of personages who are now fairly contented, but who, like the rest of the world, would like, unquestionably, to have more of various advantages than they have got. And the second result will be to

  979
  bring about a state of things so utterly intolerable that it could only end in passing the steam-roller of British power over every native State that is left in India. The erection of the Judicial Committee or any other legal tribunal into the position of a Judge and Lawgiver over the Princes of India may look like a Liberal measure, as taking them altogether out of the power of the Governor General; but, remember that there are things done every day in many native States, which would, if brought before any British tribunal, be condemned by that tribunal, while at present the Governor General only interferes in cases where misrule and atrocity go beyond all bounds when judged not by the British, but by the Asiatic standard; when, in short, the evil done amounts not merely to great private wrong, but to a grievous political transgression against the paramount Power. Alter that arrangement of affairs, and you inaugurate a struggle which can only end in one way—and that a way to which no one can look forward with pleasure who does not belong to the most extreme school of annexationists. By taking away from the Indian Government the power of redressing intolerable wrongs, by deposing the offending Prince, we shall simply be playing into the hands of those who say—Why have you merely substituted in Tonk one barbarian for another? Why have you not seized the territory and given it the blessings of British rule? That is not what is desired by those who will support my hon. Friend to-night, but that is what will be effected by them, if, in an evil hour for India and England, they succeed in undoing what has been done.
  MR. H. B. SAMUELSONsaid, he did not believe that the character of the Nawab of Tonk had anything to do with the important question which the Motion of his hon. Friend brought before the House. He felt very much inclined to give him his vote, although he had been told by the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for India that it would be injudicious, if not impossible, to refer the matter to the tribunal to which his hon. Friend wished to have it referred. At the same time, while he was not prepared to maintain that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council was the tribunal best fitted to
  980
  revise this question, it appeared to him that the guilt or innocence of this unfortunate Prince bore very little on the general issue, whether or not public trials should be given to persons accused of crime against the public welfare, as well in India as at home. In the case under consideration it was clear that the Nawab of Tonk had been tried, condemned, sentenced, and punished after two investigations, at neither of which had the Nawab the opportunity of defending himself, or of calling witnesses such as would be afforded in the Regulation districts of India to persons accused of much slighter offences. Moreover, he had not been previously put in possession of the charge brought against him. While he did not deny that as the law stood there was no illegality in the mode of conducting these trials, he contended that the state of the law was monstrous on the face of it, which permited the possibility of an independent native Prince, of ancient family, and the Sovereign ruler over a large population, to be dethroned and banished from his principality without a fair trial, and without seeing the reports, which were the foundation of his heavy sentence, for twelve months after that sentence had been pronounced and carried into execution. He could conceive that such tribunals as had condemned the Nawab of Tonk might have suited their purpose, when the Government of India was carrying on a continual struggle for supremacy; but they must be considered behind the spirit of the present age. He thought that the case brought before the House proved the existence of an indisputable necessity for giving to independent native Princes a guarantee that, when charges were brought against them they would be fairly tried in an open Court on the spot, such Court to consist of men of high reputation, great legal acquirements, and long Indian experience. Nothing could be of greater importance than that there should be on the part of independent native Princes, perfect confidence in the impartiality of the Indian Government in respect to all matters relating to their interests; otherwise, it was certain that the belief of our Indian subjects and allies in the honour and integrity of their English rulers would receive a shock that might produce the most serious consequences.
  MR. EASTWICKsaid, that in this painful case they had to deal with a most difficult dilemma. On the one hand, everyone must see the extreme inconvenience of raising questions in Parliament which had been settled by the Supreme Government of India and by the Secretary of State in Council. It had been said, and to a great extent he assented to the doctrine, that India must be governed in India, and, certainly the reversal of a Viceroy's decision by this House, or by the Privy Council, must necessarily impair the authority even of his successor, and encourage constant appeals from it. It was absurd, too, to suppose that any man, however able, in this country, and after the lapse of years, could form so true an opinion of what had happened in India as the Viceroy and the officers employed by him, who examined into the matter on the spot. On the other hand, much as he thought appeals of this nature ought, as a rule, to be discouraged, he could not but feel that utterly to close the door upon the complaints of native Princes, and to deny them the right of appeal altogether, was hardly consistent with justice, or with the solemn declaration of Her Majesty to maintain their rights. Now, in this particular case it could not be denied that there were grounds for appeal, for Captain Bruce, on whose report the Nawab was deposed and his Minister imprisoned, had himself explicitly stated that he was "convinced of the futility of endeavouring to elicit the real facts by anything like judicial proof," and that "if testimony alone could establish a case the Tonk evidence might be considered complete." Colonel Eden, too, who confirmed the report of his subordinate officer, said it was "useless to arraign the Minister on a criminal charge, for we could obtain no judicial proof." There were also grave mistakes in the proceedings both of Colonel Eden and of Captain Bruce. Had this most serious and important case been investigated before the Viceroy himself—a Viceroy so profoundly acquainted with Indian affairs as Lord Lawrence—or had it been tried by a learned Judge experienced in weighing evidence, he should have shrunk from the task of criticizing the proceedings. But as it was investigated by military officers with no more judicial knowledge than he had himself when he was in the Indian political de-
  982
  partment, he did not hesitate to animadvert on the irregular and imperfect character of the whole inquiry. He said, then, that Colonel Eden and Captain Bruce both began by showing that they had prejudged the case. Colonel Eden, as soon as he heard of the affray, dismissed the agent of the Nawab of Tonk and replaced him by a representative of the Lawa people. Captain Bruce, on the 5th of August, 1867, before he had begun the inquiry, received an anonymous letter from the Lawa people giving their version of the affair, and wrote to the Nawab in a strain which assumed his guilt. What would have been said in England of a Judge who received an ex farte statement before a trial, adopted it, and reported it to the Government? The Nawab was never allowed to be present during the whole inquiry, and did not know till long afterwards the evidence on which he was condemned. The Under Secretary of State had, indeed, justified this on the ground that it was a political not a judicial inquiry, and that no judicial inquiry was possible in the case of a semi-independent Prince. But either the Nawab was on his trial, or he was not. If he was deposed without being tried, then these proceedings were a solemn mockery. The depositions were sent up to the Governor General in a fragmentary state, for Captain Bruce writes on the 13th of September—"Many questions are now on record, which, though asked, were inadvertently left out in the written proceedings already submitted." It was not till 20 days after Captain Bruce's report had been sent to the Governor General that that officer reported to Colonel Eden the important fact that the names of six men who were said by the Lawa people to have been killed on their side were found in the Tonk muster-roll, and that their bodies were claimed by families living in Tonk. He held that the omission to report this important point was alone sufficient to nullify all that had been done. There were many weak points in the Lawa story which had been wholly passed over by Colonel Eden and Captain Bruce. For instance, it was, to say the least, improbable that a Mahomedan should have sent for a party of armed Rajpoots into his women's apartments at night, or that if he had sent for them no suspicion would have been excited, or that they would have obeyed the sum-

  983
  mons. But it was enough that an Indian Prince with whom we had treaties, and whose father had been thanked for his good faith during the Mutiny, had been dethroned and his Minister condemned to perpetual incarceration in the entire absence of judicial proof, and after a mere informal inquiry conducted by a young military officer devoid of legal training and experience. When we first visited India such an arbitrary way of dealing with the liberties and property of the people might have been justified by stern necessity. But in these days, with India entirely subject to our rule, and when not the slightest resistance was made even to such a procedure as this, the time had come to adopt a course more in accordance with justice and the feelings of Englishmen. What, then, was to be done? He could not agree that the case should be referred to the Privy Council. Such a course would be extremely embarrassing to the Government of India, and could lead to no beneficial results. Even were it possible to establish the innocence of the Nawab and his Minister they could not be restored, for that would be to endanger all those who had in the slightest degree sided against them, to resuscitate the feud between Tonk and Lawa, and to unsettle the whole country. Nor did he agree with those who thought a permanent Court, such as that of which a long account had been just read to them, should be established for trying such cases, because this could not be done without impairing the authority of the Viceroy. He suggested that, in future, in all cases where serious charges were brought against native Princes, the inquiry should be conducted by a Judge, and that the Viceroy should associate a political officer with him as assessor. He thought that, as the charges had not been judicially proved against the Minister or against the Nawab, the Minister, who was suffering under a fatal disease, should be considered to be sufficiently punished, and should be released, while the Nawab, whom, he must repeat, it would be dangerous under the circumstances to restore to his country, should be permitted to reside in any part of India he liked, except Rajpootana, without surveillance. In that manner, we might escape retracing our steps, and at the same time act justly.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he should refrain from entering upon the general question, and would deal with the proposal to refer the question to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It was true the Act of Parliament constituting the Committee empowered Her Majesty, in general terms, to refer any matter she chose to the Committee, but that general provision had to be interpreted by the special provisions preceding it. Her Majesty had a right to ask advice from all her Privy Councillors, who might be compelled in theory to give such advice; but it was well known that, although this was so in theory, in practice advice was tendered to Her Majesty only by those Privy Councillors who formed the Executive for the time being. It was certainly never intended that the Crown should apply to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for advice on questions of general policy, and if the Committee were asked by Her Majesty to express an opinion as to whether a certain John Jones was guilty of murder, it would answer that to do so was not within its province, because John Jones was not prosecuted before it; for the same reason the case of the ex-Nawab was beyond the jurisdiction of the Committee, for they had not tried him, and they could not give a judicial opinion on the merits of the ease. Moreover, the question in this case was, whether the retainers of an Indian Prince had committed murder; precisely that kind of question the Judicial Committee could not answer, because it had no machinery, apart from a distinct prosecution in the ordinary way, for gathering evidence together for trying such an issue, examining and cross-examining witnesses after a lapse of six years, and to which the Nawab could not be a party. The question was an abstract question, involving simply the propriety of the course pursued by the Executive Government in India and in England. He thought he had said enough to satisfy the House that it was quite impossible a question of that kind should be referred to the Judicial Committee; indeed he believed that if the House should be so unwise as to adopt that course, the Committee would reject the reference. He must be excused for saying he did not intend, and it would be absurd in him to pretend—to take a part in the discussion of the general

  985
  question after the exhaustive speech of his hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State; but he hoped the House would feel that, whether having regard to the proper functions of the Judicial Committee, or to the ordinary rules on which trials were conducted, it was impossible to refer such a question as this for its consideration.
  MR. WATKIN WILLIAMSsaid, that a good deal of what he intended to say had been anticipated by what had fallen from his hon. Friend the Solicitor General. He could not, however, entirely concur with him in thinking that the Judicial Committee had no criminal jurisdiction. There was scarcely any tribunal known in this country, or in the world, which had so universal a scope as to its jurisdiction and means of inquiry. The 7th section of the Act expressly provided that that tribunal might take the evidence of witnesses on matters referred to it, either orally or by written deposition. When this case was brought before the House last Session, he read the whole of the Papers relating to it, and he could not resist the conclusion that it was not a fit question to be referred to the Judicial Committee. The judgment which had been pronounced in this case, if it could be called judgment, was one of a political and not of a judicial character—namely, that the Nawab of Tonk was a person unfit to be intrusted with the lives of others, and the sentence was, that he should be deposed, and the salute for Tonk reduced from 13 guns to 11. There were three reasons why he could not assent to this Motion—namely, first, that the substantial merits of the case were against the Nawab, as the real facts left no reasonable doubt on the mind that the Nawab had been guilty of a cold-blooded, deliberate, and treacherous murder. Secondly, that this was an attempt, under the guise of recommending an appeal to the Privy Council, to pass a censure on the conduct of Lord Lawrence and the Executive Government of India in the management of those delicate relations existing between the Government of India and the native Princes. Thirdly, if there was any cause of complaint in the matter—as to which he expressed no opinion—it was not a fit matter for appeal to the Privy Council, but rather for making a change in the system of procedure in dealing with that class of cases.
  986
  The hon. Mover of this Motion summed up his case with the questions—whether the procedure in that case, was in accordance with the principles of justice; and, whether the Government of India in their proceedings had disregarded the first principles of justice; but he altogether declined to enter upon the question of the guilt or innocence of the Nawab. If the present case were to be referred to the Judicial Committee, there were only three matters which could be submitted for their consideration and advice—namely, first, the merits of the procedure; secondly, the conduct of the Executive Government; and, thirdly, the merits of the case—that was to say, whether the Nawab was or was not guilty of an atrocious murder. The hon. Mover had abandoned the third of those points—namely, the guilt or innocence of the Nawab. Did he then want the Judicial Committee to advise Her Majesty as to the conduct of the Executive Government, or as to the merits of the particular mode of procedure at present in use? He thought such a reference inadmissible and unconstitutional. If it had been merely a question as to guilt or innocence, that was a matter on which, if the law had so provided, there might have been such an appeal; but he thought the law had provided no such appeal. That was a political proceeding altogether, and it was never intended by the Act of 1833 to create a Court of Appeal from the Executive Government of India as to matters of State and the management of their delicate relations with native Princes; that Act extended only to judicial and quasi-judicial proceedings and matters ejusdem generis, and even if the words of the Act could properly be construed as giving a power to refer such a question as this to that tribunal, which he entirely disputed, it would be most unwise for the House to recommend that proceeding.
  MR. MORRISONsaid, that the question was not whether the Judicial Committee was the proper tribunal to investigate a charge of murder, but rather whether the evidence before the Indian Government was sufficient to warrant the decision arrived at in this particular case. The Solicitor General had asked, how was it possible for any judicial body to go into the investigation of a case which took place so many years ago? Now, as he (Mr. Morrison) had always under-

  987
  stood, the practice on Indian appeals was to take the written evidence of both parties, and that counsel should endeavour to put that evidence fully before the Court. He thought his hon. Friend the Under Secretary for India had raised a prejudice by travelling out of the record into irrelevant matter. The question to be decided by the Government of India was, was the Prime Minister of Nawab concerned in this murder, if murder it was? and to answer that, he could not consider it relevant to that subject to inquire into what had been the conduct of the grandfather of the Nawab. It did not follow because the grandfather was hanged, that all his grandchildren should be guilty of murder. All through the speech of his hon. Friend there ran this great fallacy. He assumed that the case of the Nawab was a false one, and laid down certain statements as to what had happened. Now, the real point at issue was, whether the statements of the Nawab's witnesses were correct or not. His hon. Friend had stated that this was not a case which could be investigated by the ordinary Courts of India; that he was not exactly a tributary, and therefore was not liable to the jurisdiction of our Courts. But that was no reason why substantial justice could not be given to him; nor was it a justification of the charges in consequence of which the Prime Minister of the Nawab was sentenced to imprisonment for life. One of the main points of the matter was, whether the inquiry was bonâ fide judicial, and with regard to that, his hon. Friend had stated that no civil Judge could have been deputed to investigate the matter; but when he recollected the long series of military officers who were sent specially to make the investigation, he did not see why the Government of India in the exercise of its paramount authority as lords of the country should not have deputed some person accustomed to judicial inquiries to have accompanied Captain Bruce. He could not attach much weight to the opinions of Colonel Eden, who having only before him the report of Captain Bruce came to a different conclusion—namely, that not only had a murder been committed, but that the Nawab was an accomplice in that murder. It was on the report of Captain Bruce and Colonel Eden that the Government of India arrived at their deci-
  988
  sion. It amounted to nothing more than this—that after reading the document they came to the conclusion that they would support the decision which had been come to by their subordinate. The whole pith of the case was contained in the first letter of Captain Bruce, and it was necessary to consider how far he had made an exhaustive inquiry. It did not say much for his professional acumen in performing that task, that he did not do what an ordinary policeman in this country would have done in inquiring into a crime, for he did not examine the locality. He was glad to find that his hon. Friend admitted that the evidence about the blood stains in one of the rooms of the palace was an afterthought, and that the evidence founded upon that fabrication was unworthy of belief. In short, although much weight naturally attached to the names of those who had come to a conclusion against the Nawab, yet that was somewhat diminished, when they recollected that all these decisions were arrived at on written documents, so that persons in England able to sift evidence, were equally competent to form an opinion. He (Mr. Morrison), however, would abstain from expressing any opinion as to the guilt or innocence of the Nawab. The important point to be considered was, whether the evidence was sufficient to warrant what had been done. This was not a matter which materially affected the Nawab alone. If we wished to maintain our position as rulers of India, we must convince the native nobility and chieftains that they had more to lose than to gain by a change. Whatever might be the issue of this debate, it was a good thing that the matter should be threshed out in the House of Commons, and that the people of India should know what were the grounds on which the Government of India had acted, and he trusted that the House would agree to the Motion of the hon. Member for Gravesend.
  MR. DICKINSONsaid, that it was not by agreeing to such a Motion as the present under discussion, that redress was to be obtained. The only ground put forward in support of it was, that when the inquiry was made shortly after the occurrence, the Nawab had no opportunity of seeing the witnesses and examining them. But it should be borne in mind that the Government had be-

  989
  fore them a statement of the case by both parties, from which it appeared there was no doubt that the murder did take place in the house of the Prime Minister of the Nawab, and that all the parties but one who went there were murdered. Before interfering with the Government of India a much stronger case ought to be made out. The objection taken was merely as to the mode in which the Governor General had made the inquiry. He thought the House ought not to be asked to pass an opinion as to the mode in which the inquiry had been conducted, so as to re-open the whole case, unless the decision appeared primâ facie incorrect. He hoped the result of the discussion would tend to a better and more satisfactory mode of conducting such inquiries than that which now obtained, for such cases, unfortunately, were becoming not unfrequent, and were not likely to be so, as long as such a number of native Princes existed.
  MR. M. CHAMBERSsaid, he was of opinion that Her Majesty had full power to refer this case to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which was an advising Committee, appointed in 1833, to discharge certain duties in regard to the hearing of Petitions that the Sovereign was unable to fulfil in person. According to the Constitution of this country, it was the imperative duty of the Sovereign to protect the interests of her subjects, and the moment she became Empress of India she incurred such a responsibility in reference to the people of that Empire. He had no hesitation, in stating his belief that in the present case a piece of gross injustice had been perpetrated towards one of Her Majesty's subjects. A charge was made against him, whereupon the Government of India sent an agent or emissary, who got into communication with the enemies of the Nawab, and, prejudging his case and his defence, made a report against him. What would be said if a charge of malversation were made against one of our leading statesmen, and if, after a report from adverse witnesses, it was proposed to act upon it without fairly hearing the person accused? He was not a classical scholar, but it was said there was a Judge of the lower regions who decided first and heard the case afterwards. The ex-Nawab, having been condemned before a hearing, now came to the House and said—"I
  990
  have been unjustly treated, and desire my Sovereign to give me redress." "But," said the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor General, and after him his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Watkin Williams), who was an admirable technical lawyer—"Her Majesty has no power to refer the case to the Judicial Committee." That was a frivolous objection—such an objection as lawyers made when they had nothing to say to the merits of the ease. As to those merits this man said—"I have been infamously treated; it is in vain for me to appeal for redress in India, and I call upon Her Majesty to do her duty towards me, one of her faithful subjects." He did not call the ex-Nawab a faithful subject without consideration, for it was well known that in the worst of times—the perilous Indian rebellion—this man remained steady to British interests, "faithful only he amongst the faithless." To some hon. Members this language might seem nonsense; but it was not nonsense to those who wished to retain the Indian Empire in the possession of Great Britain. When the government of India was transferred from the East India Company to the Queen there was enthusiastic rejoicing in India, because the people of India believed they should obtain that justice which had been denied to them over and over again, and such a case as this was one which would prove whether the people of India had cause for that rejoicing. He hoped we should not fall into the error of the East India Company, who because they misgoverned India were deprived of the government of that Empire. He felt assured it would not be said that a person aggrieved by the Indian Government had no right to throw himself at the feet of Her Majesty and ask for redress. This country was on its trial, the Queen was on her trial, the Government was on its trial. In India they were watching us, they were waiting for justice. If we missed this opportunity, and an outbreak such as that which had before occurred were again repeated, and we should not be so fortunate as we were then, the universal world would say it was our own fault. As a lawyer, he believed with regard to the jurisdiction of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council there was a perfect right of appeal, and he did not think there was

  991
  much force in the objection that this case was not a judicial decision, but a decision of the Indian Executive, confirmed by the Executive of this country. He would not quote the Lord Chancellor further than to say, that to hear the other side was a fixed rule in this country, and he ventured to affirm that this case had never yet been fairly and properly heard. The Nawab and his friends were not confronted with those whom he termed false witnesses, for he would assume their falsehood if they had never been cross-examined.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, the House had heard to-night something about grandfathers, and the reproduction of the character of the ancestor in his descendant. If he might venture so far as to make a conjecture with regard to the ancestors of the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. M. Chambers), he would say that at some very remote period among his predecessors was to be found that celebrated Judge of whom he had spoken, Rhadamanthus, who was described as having adopted the principle "Castigat auditque." He hoped the hon. and learned Gentleman having relieved himself, and having inflicted a tremendous castigation on the House, and especially on him (Sir Stafford Northcote), would now kindly give them the benefit of that milder maxim which he had quoted at the end of his speech, and hear the other side. He could not at all regret that the subject had been debated that night, for if a Gentleman of the standing and experience of the hon. and learned Gentleman was persuaded that the facts of the case were as he had stated them, he could well believe that the public in general must have formed a most extraordinary opinion of the conduct of the Indian Government in this country and in India, and it certainly would be most desirable that such an impression should not be allowed to prevail uncontradicted. He did not complain for a moment of the hon. Member for Gravesend bringing forward the question, and he did not complain of the tone in which he had spoken of himself (Sir Stafford Northcote), as there was no feeling further from his mind than the feeling that when there was any failure of justice in India it was not desirable that the facts should be brought before this
  992
  House; but it seemed extraordinary to him that a Gentleman of such distinguished Indian experience should have come to such a conclusion. If there was one thing that he placed before another, it was to show to the people of India that we were determined to do justice. It was very embarrassing to him to know tow to deal with the question, because there was such an immense mass of evidence with which, especially after the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for India, it would be wrong to trouble the House. At the same time it would be difficult for him to say what he wished in his own justification and in that of successive Governments without referring to some extent to that evidence. He would begin, then, by putting aside those parts of the question with which he had not time deal, such as the competency of the Judicial Committee, as to which he would only say that, as a matter of convenience, this being a question not of law but of fact, he did not see how the Judicial Committee could deal with it in a satisfactory manner. Well, then, the case had taken place several years ago. The question at issue was not a question of law at all, but a question of fact. It turned upon the question whether the evidence of one set of witnesses was to be believed, many of whom were no longer to be found. The officer who conducted the principal inquiry was dead. It would be almost impossible to do more than take the Papers already before them, and form an opinion on those Papers after hearing the arguments that might be adduced. But the very gist of the case, as made by those who called for a rehearing, was that the evidence was worth little or nothing, because that evidence was not given in presence of the Nawab, and because he was not allowed to cross-examine witnesses. Still, it might be for some tribunals to say that this evidence was badly taken, and must be set aside; but it would not restore matters to the position in which they were when the examination took place. He would pass that by; as he would also the general question whether inquiries of this kind should continue to take place in India under the present system. That latter was a matter for the consideration of Government and of Parliament, for whom it was to determine whether some more systematic

  993
  mode of inquiry should take place in such cases. He would dwell mainly upon the question whether substantial justice had been done in this particular instance. And with regard to that, he would point out that there was in it nothing analogous to what was found in many other cases of alleged injustice to Indian Princes, in which the British Government were supposed to have been led astray by selfish interests. This was not a case in which the territories of the Nawab were confiscated for some alleged offence against British rule; but it was one in which the British Government, if misled at all, were misled as to what it was their duty to do for the general benefit of the country which was subject to Great Britain as the paramount Power in India. The hon. and learned Gentleman, among many other incorrect statements, spoke of the Nawab as a British subject. But he was not a British subject. The Nawab of Tonk was a Prince governing a territory of his own; but he did not stand entirely on the footing of an independent Sovereign—such as the Shah of Persia or the Emperor of China. The Nawab occupied a peculiar position; he was what was called a feudatory, or perhaps the better term was a mediatized, Prince; he held a position carved out for him by British power, and guaranteed to him by Great Britain. He was a stipendiary of the British Government, and received certain payments in respect of territory which was ceded, and in addition to that he was subject in certain ways to the authority of the British Government. He believed the Nawab had not the power of life and death in his own dominions, because in the case of capital sentences he was obliged to refer them for approval to the British Government. But though he was in this position he was not a British subject, because he was a Native Prince governing his own territories. It was a very grave question, therefore, how far we had a right to call him before any tribunal of our own and to try him. Our right of interference in Tonk was not a judicial one; and it was matter for argument whether we had any legal right to try this man as a culprit. We did not try him; we exercised our right as the paramount Power in India for the benefit of the country at large; and we interfered to
  994
  prevent the disturbance of the peace in this great district. Now, what was done? The Under Secretary for India had given them an account of what took place when he (Sir Stafford Northcote) was Secretary of State for India. Lord Lawrence, the Governor General, sent home a despatch, in which he gave the Home Government a distinct assurance that, having carefully examined the case, his Government were unanimously and decidedly of opinion that the Nawab was guilty of the conduct charged against him; and, further, that they were of opinion that sentence of deposition should be pronounced against him. Lord Lawrence proceeded to act upon the judgment of the Indian Government in deciding that sentence of deposition should be pronounced against the Nawab; but so anxious was Lord Lawrence to prevent any apparent collision between the Home and the Indian Governments, that he refrained from so doing till he received the opinion of the Secretary of State. He need hardly say that, under these circumstances, the examination of the Secretary of State and his Council was peculiar, anxious, and careful. They felt, indeed, that there was greater responsibility cast upon them than was usual in such cases; because, though the evidence was sent to them, still they could only judge of it from a distance. Having considered the matter most carefully, they came to the opinion—he believed unanimously—that the Government of India were right in their conclusion, and the Home Government came independently to the same conclusion. When the matter was revived by the Nawab under Lord Mayo's Government it was reconsidered by the Duke of Argyll, and the same conclusion was come to. Thus there was a considerable weight of authority in support of the view actually arrived at; and whether or not the inquiry was conducted technically in the most desirable manner, the opinions of many persons of impartiality and authority were that the decision was substantially a sound one. It was said that the inquiry was conducted without notice to the Nawab; that he was tried first; and that it was not until after the decision of the political officers that he was allowed to say anything in his own defence. If that were indeed the case, great injustice would have been committed, and those

  995
  who pronounced judgment would be worthy of the gravest censure. But that was not all that had been done, for the Nawab was communicated with from the first. He was perfectly aware of the charge made against him; he had every opportunity of making his own statement, and he did make it. Through his confidential adviser he availed himself of the opportunity of cross-examining witnesses, and produced other witnesses on his own side. He (Sir Stafford Northcote) would not go into an examination of the evidence then; but there was a line of evidence which the Nawab had furnished unconsciously against himself, for on August 2, 1867, the very day after this affair, he wrote to Colonel Eden, the Agent of the Governor General, telling him he was aware of the insubordinate and rebellious conduct of the chief of Lawa; that a further disturbance had been created; that it was advisable to acquaint Colonel Eden with the fact, in order that he might reprimand the Talookdar; that he had summoned him to Tonk; and that his uncle with 40 men had presented themselves, creating a disturbance and resorting to arms. Not a word was said in this letter about the death of anybody, and the story varied entirely from what had been written by the Nawab's Minister by the Nawab's orders, and what we knew had occurred. The Prime Minister of Tonk wrote letters to the chief of Lawa urging him to come to Tonk, not for the purpose of reprimanding him for ill-treating his people, but, on the contrary, to deal with a complaint made by the chief of Lawa against the Nawab, that land had been taken from him. The Minister informed the chief that the grant of the village would be given to him with a present, and that all differences would be adjusted. The chief replied, excusing himself. Thereupon a still more pressing letter was written, urging him to come; and the result was the occurrence which had led to the inquiry. The Nawab had, therefore, made a false statement upon the matter. Captain Roberts, the first person sent to Tonk, communicated with the Nawab. Captain Bruce also at once called on the Nawab, and told him that full inquiry must be made, or the world would believe that the Nawab was concerned in the matter; and yet the House was told
  996
  that the Nawab was not aware of the charge made against him. Captain Bruce stated that the depositions were taken in public, and it was, therefore, hard to say that the whole matter was conducted behind the back of the Nawab, some of the witnesses being actually examined in his presence. Was the Nawab to have been summoned to appear? We had no right to summon him. He (Sir Stafford Northcote) was not defending in every particular the precise form adopted in the inquiry. All he said was that substantial justice had been done; that means were afforded to everybody to tell their story; that the parties concerned availed themselves of those means; and after careful investigation the story told by the people of Lawa was believed. Was it desirable that, under such circumstances, the matter should be re-opened? This discussion, occupying, as it did, the whole of the evening, would show the people of India that there was no desire to smother the matter; but he denied that the cause of good government in India would be promoted by further inquiry. Now, a word as to the probabilities of the story. It was said that it was improbable that the Lawa chief should be summoned into the apartments of the women. Now, the fact was that the Prime Minister of Tonk, being charged with the duty of looking after the Dacoits, or robbers, had within the palace a force of some 800 or 900 armed men. If you went upon probabilities, was it probable that some 25 Lawa people should attack a Minister defended by 800 or 900 troops? The thing was absurd. The Lawa men had no firearms; some of them did not even wear swords. Again, how was it that on this very night a body of men were sent off with scaling ladders to attack the fort of Lawa, reaching Lawa before daybreak next morning? It was alleged that they were sent out in pursuit of fugitives. But they were infantry soldiers, and not, therefore, likely to overtake fugitives; they took scaling ladders with them, and would have taken four guns if the folly of doing so had not been pointed out to the Nawab. He (Sir Stafford Northcote) confessed that this point had weighed strongly with him in arriving, as he did, at the conclusion that the plot was on the side of Tonk, and not of Lawa. If that were so, and if successive Govern-

  997
  ments were right in their conclusion that a crime had been committed by the Nawab, he hoped the House would not think it desirable even to go to a division; not because he deprecated opinions adverse to the Indian Government, but because, if the House thought substantial justice had been done, it would be undesirable to agitate the native mind in India by the notion that the House was in doubt upon this subject. The position of England as the paramount Power in India, and her position towards these mediatized Princes, was a very delicate one, requiring great judgment and firmness as well as justice. We had duties to discharge, not only to the natives of those parts of India directly under our sway, but to the natives of States which were not under our sway; and it was the knowledge that we were able and willing to put down lawlessness among the native States which conduced so much to the peace and prosperity of India. By guaranteeing a Native Ruler in the possession of his dominions we engaged to support him against insurrection among his subjects, and against aggression from his neighbours; but we thereby accepted the responsibility of checking his excesses. If the offence were what it was said to be, the punishment was not too severe, and he trusted that the House—not sharing the sympathy expressed for a man whose case had certainly been put before the House with a good deal of colour—would act in the way which he believed would be for the good of India herself and the highest interests of the Empire.
  MR. W. M. TORRENSsaid, he took exception to the dictum of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for India that the Judicial Committee would reject the appeal, for he agreed with those who held that this case ought not to be treated on technical grounds. But the question respecting the power of the Privy Council had in one important matter been misapprehended, for the case quoted by the Under Secretary was one of an attempted appeal by a convicted criminal without the consent of the Crown. The hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir Charles Wingfield), however, asked that the Queen should initiate this reference, and there was an obvious distinction between the case of two parties who agreed to arbitration, and an attempt of one to force a reference to
  998
  arbitration. The Motion was for an Address to the Crown to invoke the highest judicature not in the name of the Nawab, but in the name of the House of Commons; and it should be remembered that the Act of 1857 had imposed upon that Assembly in respect of India a greater responsibility than rested upon any legislative Assembly in the world. With respect to the statement that the case had already been fully decided, he would remind the House that the Earl of Derby, when sitting in the House of Commons, insisted on Lord Halifax reversing the decision in the case of Dhar, although it had been fortified by Governor General after Governor General, and Secretary of State after Secretary of State. As Lord Derby said, it was for the House, and not for any Administration, to decide what was just, and who should be judge, in such a case. As to the question of jurisdiction, he would ask whether such pleas as had been heard against dealing with this case would be entertained in any Court of the Realm? Either this man was their subject, and in that case he ought to have a fair trial, or he was not their subject, and then they were usurpers by virtue of their mere power. He was surprised at the right hon. Baronet (Sir Stafford Northcote) talking of this man as a mediatized Prince. His character was simply this—that, his grandfather being a very troublesome man, Lord Hastings—no mean authority—who had great experience in civil affairs both in India and elsewhere, thought it a good act to root him in the ground—to give him territory and the means of ruling it. If we were to govern India—if we were to keep our pledged word—was it the part of a Minister of the Queen to come down to the House and divert its attention from a clear question of justice to a living man by telling a story about his grandfather, and, at the same time, further attempt to vilify his character by painting him as one of the same race of fanatics as the one who had basely assassinated the noble Lord the Governor General of India? He knew not with what justice that insinuation was made. The Attorney General would not in any Court of he Realm treat the commonest felon with such injustice. As to the murder which was said to have been committed, no man in the House had the slightest

  999
  knowledge whether the account given by the right hon. Gentleman was accurate or not. But what had that to do, in common sense and justice, with this question? Although he should have wished the Motion differently worded, he should certainly vote for it if the hon. Mover went to a division. If they could not refer this matter to the Privy Council, they could refer it to a Select Committee of that House, or to a Joint Committee of both Houses. A great principle of the law of this country was, that for every wrong there was a remedy, and they were not entitled to say there was no remedy for the great alleged wrong which the Nawab had suffered. He would make this appeal to the Government—they were about to send out to India a new Viceroy, and they could not do better than instruct him that in all questions of this kind the authority of that and the other House of Parliament was the highest Court of Appeal, and that they would see that justice was done in all cases.
  VISCOTINT BURYsaid, he wished to put this matter upon a broad and noble issue—namely, the interests of Great Britain. His experience of India was not very recent or very extensive; but he saw enough of that country to know that what the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) said was true—that our tenure of power in India depended upon the substantial justice which we dealt out to the various nations under our sway in that country. Since he had had a seat in the House he had heard a great many Indian questions brought up, and when any question of justice to any official or Native Prince was brought up it had almost invariably been urged by the official Members on both sides of the House that it was a matter which involved confidence in a Governor General. The question was, not whether substantial justice had been already done, but whether any appeal lay from that measure of justice, such as it was, to the House of Commons and the Government of this country? No doubt the case had been decided according to the best information possessed by the officials at the India Office; but the Nawab appealed from them to the British nation and to the highest Court of Appeal, and it was no answer to him to say that the case could not be re-opened. The right
  1000
  hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon had said he would not balance evidence against evidence; but how had he followed up that assertion? Why, by picking out of the Blue Book anything that bore on his own side of the question, and omitting anything that told the other way. In old days, before the Indian Empire was entirely given up to the Crown, there were persons with some knowledge of the affairs of India who were able to secure attention to any real and tangible grievance. But, as the hon. Member for Brighton had said, the House of Commons rather shirked these Indian questions. The only satisfactory course, therefore, was to refer the matter to a judicial tribunal, and, in order to attain that result, he should vote for the Motion of the hon. Member for Gravesend.
  MR. T. HUGHESsaid, that if the Motion were pressed to a division, he also should be compelled to vote against the Government. In the position held by the Nawab of Tonk, as a Native Prince of India, the right hon. Baronet, the late Indian Secretary, seemed to think it was very doubtful whether we had any right to try him at all, or, at any rate, if we did try him, we were bound to do it regularly. Yet, we had confessedly tried him, not only in an irregular manner, but had administered the heaviest punishment in our power—taking away his kingdom, and putting his Prime Minister into prison for life. The hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for India said this was a political procedure, and that the Nawab, not being a subject of the Queen, could not be subject to the jurisdiction of an English Court. He took as an illustration the case of the old feudatories, who were subject to their Lord's Courts, arguing, as he understood him, that as the Nawab was not technically subject to the jurisdiction of the Queen's Courts in India, he could not be tried at all. But the Nawab, though not a feudatory, was prepared to submit to the Lord's Court—he asked for such a trial as would be given to an Englishman, and as became an Indian Prince. The statement of the Solicitor General, that any Ministry would resign if the Queen were to ask the advice of the Privy Council upon a question which the Government were bound to determine on their own responsibility, struck him as being most ex-

  1001
  traordinary. It was an attempt to turn this Motion into a Vote of Want of Confidence, which was absurd. What the ex-Nawab of Tonk had asked was, that the case might be referred to the Judicial Committee, upon the evidence on which he had been deposed, in order that they might advise whether a proper and legal judgment had been given. To justify that application, three very distinguished lawyers—one of them the most distinguished English lawyer now living, the hon. and learned Member for Richmond—had given an opinion that this was a case which might be referred to the Privy Council. What good reason existed why that course should not be adopted? The injustice of keeping a man imprisoned for life, as the Prime Minister of this unfortunate Prince was at present, though he had never been convicted, was such as would never, he believed, be sanctioned by the House.
  MR. GREGORYsaid, he would suggest to the Government a way out of the difficulty, which their own conduct had largely created. Some years ago a question arose as to the distribution of property of one of our feudatories in India. As a Prince, he was exempted from the jurisdiction of our Courts; a Commissioner was accordingly sent down by the Government for the purpose of investigating the rights of the parties, and he made a report as to the mode in which the property ought to be distributed. That report, however, was not deemed satisfactory by the parties, and many of them remonstrated very strongly, appealing in the end to the House of Commons. The House entertained the question; and though he could not say that a decision adverse to the Government was arrived at, yet so strong was the feeling manifested that the Government, for the sake of their own character and to get rid of the clamour which had been raised, consented to refer the matter to the Privy Council. There the matter was fully argued, and the decision of the Government was, he believed, confirmed. Yet from that day remonstrance ceased, and the controversy was at an end. He believed the Government would act wisely in consenting to a similar reference in the present case. The Judicial Committee, not being a Court of Original Jurisdiction, could take no further reference. If, therefore, on the materials laid before it, it decided that the Go-
  1002
  vernment were right, no harm would have been done, and, if otherwise, then it would be plainly just that the decision should be revised. The Government might with advantage consider whether in these cases this mode of reference should not be adopted.
  MR. W. FOWLERsaid, he understood from the speech of the Under Secretary that the Native Princes of India, like the unfortunate Nawab of Tonk, had no right of appeal from the decision of the Government. It was by way of protest against that doctrine that he should vote for the Motion. We were apparently dealing with these Princes much in the same way as we dealt with them 100 years ago, though the circumstances had entirely changed, especially as regarded means of communication and education. It was desirable that the House should let these Princes know that justice should be done them, and that if the original judgment was wrong there should be a right of appeal. They had not to decide on the guilt or innocence of the Nawab; but only to pronounce an opinion that there was an appeal to this country. What form the appeal should take he would not discuss—there being high authorities on both sides as regarded the Judicial Committee—but there ought certainly to be a tribunal of some kind in these cases.
  MR. BRISTOWEsaid, he could come to no other conclusion, from a perusal of the Papers, than that the decision of the Government was correct. It had been assumed by the hon. Gentleman who proposed the Resolution, that the authorities decided simply on the report of the political agents. The materials, however, on which that report was based accompanied the report. It was natural to suppose that this being the first case of the kind since the abolition of the East India Company's Government, it had been decided with the utmost care. For instance, how could anyone suppose that when the Nawab had been sending repeated messages asking the chief to visit him, the fate of these unfortunate persons was a mere accident? It would be a dangerous precedent to refer the decision of the Government not in a civil but in a political investigation to the Judicial Committee.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he believed the question

  1003
  would be none the worse for being restated from a common-sense point of view. The fact was, that this country undertook to keep the peace throughout India; but in India there were no Legislative Assemblies, no Ministries to turn out, and no possibility of expressing popular discontent and dissatisfaction, except by means of the insurrection of the people against their Kings and dethroning them. That was what this country prevented by its armed supremacy, and although they did a great good to India, inasmuch as they kept the peace and prevented a great number of barbarous outrages, there was no doubt that they might also do much evil by perpetuating an abominable and terrible tyranny, because they prevented that force which was the only remedy of an Oriental people when they were tormented beyond what they could bear. This necessarily threw upon the Government the duty of moderating any oppression or tyranny, and seeing that it did not become intolerable. They had abandoned the policy of annexation that used to be followed, and they no longer sought to increase their dominions at the expense of the Indian chiefs. But they had not abandoned—and he trusted that they would not abandon—the duty that was cast upon them by the peculiarity of their situation, of taking care that no intolerable oppression or cruelty should be perpetrated in dominions which, if they were not technically belonging to the English Government, were yet so much under their sway and control, that they were really responsible for anything extraordinary cruel or wicked that might happen there. In the exercise of that duty they might justly and properly remove from the Throne, which was unworthily occupied, the Prince who had been guilty of any extraordinary cruelty, oppression, or wickedness. But this country ought not to profit by that circumstance. The Government ought to place some one else of the family upon the Throne, so that its proceedings should be free even from the suspicion of being actuated by any selfish or interested motives. These seemed to him to be the principles upon which their situation in India forced them to act. That being so, let them examine this case. Here was a Native Prince who, it was said, on the one side, had enticed into his power a number of persons towards
  1004
  whom he was ill-disposed, and murdered them all. On the other side it was said, that these persons came with hostile intentions against him, and that he was so fortunate as not only to repel, but to kill all those who had intended to surprise him. This was a conflict of evidence. Hon. Gentlemen had expressed strong opinions on the subject; it was no part of his argument to express any opinion at all. He would assume, by way of argument, that any person reading the Papers would find it difficult to decide one way or the other; and the next thing to look to was authority. Well, the matter had been decided by two Governor Generals and their Councils without a dissentient voice. It had also been brought home to England and decided by two successive Secretaries of State, with the assistance of their Indian Council, also without dissent. According to the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. W. M. Torrens) we ought to have tried the Nawab, if he was our subject, and if he was not, to have left him alone; but though not our subject, his power depended so much upon us that we could not evade the responsibility for its exercise. It, therefore, became our duty to inquire, and if satisfied that he was unworthy of his position, to prevent his doing further mischief. As to not giving him notice, and other matters of detail, it should be remembered that the question at issue was not so much his criminality as the welfare of the people, and whether it was for their benefit that he should retain his authority. The inquiry was, consequently, not judicial, but political. This was no exaggerated statement of the case. It would be a monstrous proposition to say that no appeal lay to this House or to the Government of this country for offences committed in India, and it would have been a reproach to English justice if 80 years ago the House of Commons had not entertained the charges against Warren Hastings; but while he said that, and admitted that an appeal did lie to this House for any grievance, he asserted fearlessly that it did not follow because this House might entertain an appeal that it was bound to do so. The question whether it should do so depended upon many considerations, and upon none more than this—that it ought never to entertain an appeal of this kind, unless it thought it had a

  1005
  better chance of coming to a right conclusion than those from whom the appeal was made. Unless hon. Members thought they were in a position to judge better on this subject than the Governor General and his Council, who were on the spot, they were not justified in entertaining it, because the probability was they would not do justice. That was a conclusive answer to the suggestion that they should refer the matter to a Select Committee. What could the Members of it do? They could read over the documents and come to their own conclusions, doubtless with intelligence and perfect honesty; but, when they had done that, would their opinion, that of persons without a practical knowledge of India and of its affairs, be as valuable and weighty as that of the Governor General in Council? The strangest course proposed was that, this being not a judicial but a political matter, it should be referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. That ordinarily dealt with matters of law, though he did not mean to say nothing else could be referred to it; but it was a Court composed of men eminent in the law, and for nothing else in particular, and it was utterly unreasonable to refer to this tribunal a case of this kind. It was a pure issue of fact as to who was the aggressor, and that was to be decided on native evidence. Hon. Members talked of examining witnesses on oath; but in India they laughed at an oath. This was a question of fact as to what happened in a remote part of India; it was investigated on the spot, and an opinion formed on it by Indian officials who were impartial, who had a thorough knowledge of the habits of the people and of the condition of the country; it had been re-investigated by the highest Court in India for political matters; and was the House to say that the Judicial Committee, which had no knowledge of India, was a tribunal to which it should be referred, when there was no legal issue in it, while its consideration required a thorough knowledge of the habits of the people of India? The House would stultify itself if it adopted such a course. No doubt Her Majesty could refer the case to the Judicial Committee; but the question was whether she ought to do so, and that depended entirely on whether the Judicial Committee would on such a subject, on a question
  1006
  of fact, be likely to form a better opinion, and to come to a truer conclusion than had been come to already by the two Governor Generals and many experienced and able persons who had already tried the question. Unless they were prepared to affirm that, and to say that a mere knowledge of English law implied an intuitive faculty for sifting such matters of fact, it was clear that it would be mockery to refer this case to the Judicial Committee. It had been said that the worst thing they risked by referring the question to the Judicial Committee would be that no great light might be thrown upon it; but there was a worse aspect than that. The whole force and strength of our Government in India consisted in the respect and veneration in which the head of the Government there was held. The people of India looked upon the Governor General as a sort of divinity upon earth. If that mighty Potentate was to be judged, not by principles of political expediency, but by the narrow and technical rules of a judicial tribunal, in what estimation would he be held? Everything which galled a Native Prince would be made the subject of an appeal. It would be ridiculous to attempt to govern India, not on the rules of enlightened policy and experience, but upon the narrow and technical rules of English law which the country never heard of. No graver mistake or more melancholy error could be made not only as regarded the justice of this case, but also as regarded the future of India. For these reasons, he hoped the Motion would not be carried.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 120; Noes 84: Majority 36.

PARLIAMFNT—BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.—QUESTION.
MR. G. BENTINCKsaid, he wished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to the Business of the House. It would be in the recollection of hon. Members that a few days ago, when the right hon. Gentleman gave Notice of his intention to bring for-

1007
ward Resolutions on the Business of the House, he (Mr. G. Bentinck) had moved an Amendment, on the ground that those Resolutions differed in form from the Report of the Committee last year, and sufficient time had not been given for their consideration. He concluded that his objection was considered a valid one, inasmuch as the Government did not persevere with the Resolutions then proposed. What had occurred since? They heard to-day for the first time that the right hon. Gentleman intended on Monday next to move not only the Resolutions which already appeared on the Paper, but a new set of Resolutions, which he could not characterize in Parliamentary language. When it was stated that the House had to deal with entirely new Resolutions, which would revolutionize the whole of the existing system of conducting business, and that they had only two days to consider them, he thought the objection he had first assigned, if already valid enough, was still more valid as against the new propositions of the Government, and therefore that he might appeal to them as to the course they had announced their intention to pursue. The new Resolutions to be moved were, he contended, subversive of the liberty and independence of the House of Commons, and, if adopted, would render it a mere office of record of the decisions of the Minister of the day. He begged to ask whether it was still intended to bring forward the Resolutions on Monday, without affording more ample time for their consideration? If so, he begged to give Notice that he would oppose them in every possible way.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he should have much pleasure in complying with the hon. Gentleman's (Mr. G. Bentinck's) wishes if he thought there was the least probability of getting him to think that any time would be a proper time for proposing these Resolutions. But inasmuch as that was hopeless, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) certainly did intend, in spite of the hon. Gentleman's dreadful denunciations, to move on Monday next the six Resolutions of which he had given Notice.
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

ROYAL PARKS AND GARDENS BILL— [BILL 17.]
(Mr. Ayrton, Mr. Baxter.)
COMMITTEE. [Progress 22nd February.]
Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Clause 5 (Park-keeper may apprehend any offender whose name and residence is not known).
MR. VERNON HARCOURTbegged to move that the clause be for the present postponed. He hoped both sides of the House would consider that was not an unreasonable application. Those who opposed the Bill had the gravest objections to the clause. The powers which it gave were most unusual, if not unprecedented, and the only precedent quoted and relied upon to justify them by the First Commissioner of Works was that of Wimbledon Common; but that was not enough to alter the whole course of criminal legislation in the country. The case of Wimbledon Common had no application in the present instance, for as respected Wimbledon that was a private bargain between Lord Spencer and the people in the neighbourhood of Wimbledon; whereas the Parks of England were the prescriptive property of the people of England. No such powers of arbitrary arrest had ever been sanctioned before, and Parliament ought therefore to proceed in this matter with great caution and deliberation. The powers asked for in this clause were even more extreme in their language than the severest clauses of any Police Act, for they were going to pass these extreme powers without stating to what offences they were to be applicable. If the clause were passed——
THE CHAIRMANsaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman must confine himself to the reasons why the clause should be postponed, as that was the proposal he had made.
MR. VERNON HARCOURTsaid, that his argument for postponing the clause was, that the schedule should be applied to it; and, in fact, that it should ultimately become part of the clause itself.
THE CHAIRMAN: I must again remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that he must confine himself to the postponement of the clause; and also that if it be postponed, it will still be taken before the schedules.
MR. VERNON HARCOURTsaid, he was quite aware of that, and what he was suggesting was, that there should be no schedule at all, but that if this clause was postponed, the schedule should be brought up in the shape of an addition to the clause itself. For that reason, he proposed that the clause should be postponed, in order that the offences applicable to it should be ultimately made part of it. That was the course that was pursued in the Metropolitan Police Act in regard to a similar clause, and the reasons in its favour were very strong. The House would then be considering the offences in relation to the cases of punishment, instead of, as now, irrespective of it.
THE CHAIRMANsaid, he must again remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that his arguments must be strictly confined to showing why the clause should be postponed.
MR. VERNON HARCOURTsaid, that his reason for moving the postponement of the clause was in order that it might be considered in connection with what was contained in a subsequent part of the Bill. He made the proposition in the hope that it might be met in the spirit of friendly compromise, for that was the spirit in which he offered the suggestion, and he believed that its acceptance would mitigate the opposition to the Bill. The House ought not to pass a clause giving such extreme powers without at the same time taking into consideration the different offences to which the penalties were to attach. Unless they pursued that course, they must either adopt a Draconian code, and apply it to all the offences indiscriminately, or allow some offences to be visited with inadequate punishment. He did not think that his was an unreasonable proposition, and he made it with the sincere desire to see this matter satisfactorily settled. The powers of arrest proposed in this clause were really a very serious thing, though he would not further refer to them after the ruling of the Chairman.
MR. AYRTONsaid, that he would merely remind the Committee that on
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the second reading of the Bill his hon. and learned Friend had objected to its being read at that time, because he desired time in order to propose Amendments. Since then he had been informed that his hon. and learned Friend, in conjunction with the hon. Member for Warrington (Mr. Rylands), had examined the Bill, and had decided upon the Amendments which they thought proper to be introduced. That being so, and the Government acting on the faith of that understanding, his hon. and learned Friend now asked for the postponement of the clause, in order that it might be amended. Was that a frank or loyal course to be pursued by the hon. and learned Gentleman? It was not one that the Government could agree to or sanction. He must ask the Committee to proceed with the consideration of the clause, and in no case was the Amendment of his hon. and learned Friend one that he could give his assent to.
MR. RYLANDSsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works appeared to suppose that there had been some arrangement between himself and his hon. and learned Friend on that subject. He might mention that his hon. and learned Friend had proposed an Amendment last evening, to reduce the penalties from £5 to 40s., on the ground that the offence was of a trifling character; but that Amendment was rejected, and therefore it was not unreasonable that the present proposal of his hon. and learned Friend should be made. He desired, however, to acknowledge with thanks the concession that the Government had made with respect to another Amendment that would come on for discussion hereafter.
MR. GLADSTONEremarked that nothing whatever would be gained by the postponement of the clause, into which fresh matter could be incorporated now as easily as at any later stage.
Motion negatived.
MR. DICKINSON MR. DICKINSON moved, in line 26, after the words "park-keeper," to insert the words "in uniform."
Amendment agreed to.
MR. RYLANDS MR. RYLANDS moved, in line 26, to leave out, "and any persons whom he

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may call to his assistance." The clause must be looked at in two aspects—namely, the person to carry out the powers conferred, and the nature of the powers themselves. The park-keepers were appointed by an irresponsible officer of the Crown, who was not under the control of Parliament; and the difficulty was aggravated by the fact that there were so many offences undefined. By calling in extraneous assistance disturbances might be fomented, which they all wished to avoid.
MR. ASSHETON CROSSsuggested that the Chief Commissioner of Works should, in answering this objection, state exactly the powers of the police, and in what respect those powers differed from the powers of the park-keepers, and why they differed.
MR. AYRTONsaid, that was exactly the point he intended remarking upon. His hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Mr. Rylands), counselled by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Vernon Harcourt), had fallen into the error of supposing these park-keepers were to be appointed by irresponsible persons. In a majority of cases the keepers would be appointed by the Chief Commissioner of Works, who would be directly responsible to this House; and, as regarded those mentioned in the schedule, they would be appointed by the Ranger, who held office during the pleasure of the Crown, and was as responsible to the Crown, and equally liable to removal for misconduct as the Chief Commissioner of Works. [Laughter.] That was the law and the fact, neither of which could be altered by derision. The General Police Act conferred the power of arrest, and after the Amendment he proposed to introduce the clause of the Bill would be found the same as that of the Police Act, which had been in operation for over 30 years; and its provisions for the government of the Metropolis had been administered without any substantial injustice or even inconvenience.
MR. VERNON HARCOURTsaid, he should have preferred that the question of law asked by the hon. Member for South-west Lancashire (Mr. Cross) had been answered by the Law Officer of the Crown, who would probably have given a more accurate description of the point. He had taken some pains to explain the law to the Chief Commissioner of Works
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already; but he had again to go over the ground, and in the first place he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that the clause he had quoted had nothing whatever to do with the matter. The 52nd clause gave power to the police to make regulations for the purpose of preventing any obstructions that might be caused by processions; and the 54th clause provided that every person should be liable to a penalty not exceeding 40 s., who within the metropolitan thoroughfares committed any one of a list of offences; but the 9th sub-section of that clause required that the offender should have been first made acquainted with the regulations, and also that he should have wilfully disregarded them before he could be taken into custody by the police without warrant. Both of the limitations contained in that sub-section of the 54th clause of the Metropolitan Police Act were carefully omitted from the present Bill. The 54th clause of the Metropolitan Police Act was the real analogue to this Bill, and the object of the proposed Amendment was to assimilate the present clause with the provisions of that Act.
MR. AYRTONsaid, he was not fairly open to the imputation that he was unable to answer the question put to him without the assistance of the Attorney General. The clause quoted by the hon. and learned Member for Oxford actually gave a still larger power to the police than the one he had himself read to the Committee; because it gave a constable general power to arrest without warrant for an offence committed within his view, without any reference whatever to the name and address of the offender. The clause that he now proposed was based on a much more restricted clause of the Metropolitan Police Act, because it limited the power of arrest to the case of a person offending, and whose name and address were unknown to the constable and could not be ascertained by him.
MR. WALTERrose to ask a question of the Chief Commissioner of Works on a very material point. Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to say whether the persons whom a park-keeper called to his assistance would be bound to obey his call?
MR. AYRTONsaid, that they would not, any more than when they were called upon by a police-constable.
COLONEL HOGGconfirmed what had fallen from the Chief Commissioner of Works as to occurrences in the Parks from his practical experience in connection with London Parks not included in the Bill. False addresses had been given; while with reference to cases of assault and resistance, he thought the park-keepers should have the power to call for assistance from the by-standers.
MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he had always been under the impression that a police-constable had a right to call on persons to assist him, and he should like to know from the Home Secretary whether that was so or not.
MR. AYRTONsaid, there was the right to call, but what he had stated was that the persons called were not bound to come.
MR. VERNON HARCOURTobserved, that it had been said that all that was to be done by the Bill was what was applicable to all the Parks in the kingdom. The powers now sought for, however, were such as applied to no Park in the kingdom, and he wanted to know why a rule should be made with respect to the metropolitan Parks which was not known elsewhere.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he did not think it would make any difference whether the words "or any person whom he may call to his assistance" were in or out of the clause; for in a subsequent clause they gave to park-keepers all the power and authority of constables, which included the calling in of people to help them.
Amendment negatived.
MR. GOLDSMIDobserved, that the Government had kept the House sitting until very late hours last Session, and as he did not wish them to continue the practice, it being then a quarter past 12 o'clock, he should move that Progress be reported.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Goldsmid.)
MR. AYRTONhoped that hon. Members opposing the Bill would accept the decision of the Committee as final with regard to the principle of the clause, and would agree to it before Progress was reported.
MR. RYLANDSdesired that Progress should be reported, and suggested that
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the Government should reconsider the Bill, and reintroduce it in a shape more likely to meet with general approbation. It had been stated that the measure had received the sanction of the metropolitan Members; but on looking at the Division List he found that while 10 of the metropolitan Members had voted with the minority, only 3, including the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Commissioner of Works himself, and another member of the Government, had voted with the majority. In fact, the only metropolitan Member not connected with the Government who supported the Bill was the respected ex-Governor of the Bank of England.
LORD JOHN MANNERSthought that the request of the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works, that the decision of the Committee upon the Amendment just rejected should be regarded as final upon the main principle of the clause, was a reasonable one, and ought to be agreed to. If the hon. Member for Warrington (Mr. Rylands) thought he had any chance of rejecting the clause, he should have challenged the decision of the Chairman; but it was hard upon hon. Members who had waited all night for this Bill to come on, that Amendment after Amendment should be moved only to be withdrawn, and that Progress should be reported at that early hour, and at such a stage of the measure.
MR. VERNON HARCOURTsaid, the wishes of the noble Lord the Member for North Leicestershire (Lord John Manners) respecting divisions could be met in future; but he wished to point out that it was twenty minutes past 12 o'clock, and to ask whether, after that time, hon. Members opposite would allow a Bill which they opposed to proceed? Would they allow the question of giving burial to a Christian Dissenter to be discussed after 12 o'clock without moving to report Progress? But the treatment of alive "rough" seemed to stand on a different footing from the treatment of a dead Dissenter, for the former could be debated apparently until any hour of the night.
MR. AYRTONsaid, that the Committee had sat upstairs day after day upon the Bill without the feelings of excitement arising that appeared to have been evidently raised in the minds of some hon. Members in reference to it

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within the last few days. He merely desired that the business of the Committee should be conducted in the usual way, and that when the subject had been fully discussed, the Committee should not report Progress before availing itself of the fruit of the discussion by passing a practical Resolution. They did wish to make a distinction between the living and the dead, and to proceed after the manner of the living on the present occasion.
MR. COLLINSsaid, he must remind hon. Members that it had been proposed that no new opposed business should be taken after half-past 12 o'clock; but thought that as that hour had not yet been reached, the question with reference to this clause might well be decided before Progress was reported.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 24; Noes 140: Majority 116.
MR. RYLANDSthen moved, in page 2, line 1, to leave out "acts in contravention of," and insert "wilfully disregards or refuse to conform to." The object of the Amendment was to prevent a park-keeper from summarily arresting a person for the infringement of a regulation of the very existence of which he might be unaware.
MR. VERNON HARCOURTsaid, the clause, which gave summary powers of arrest for undefined offences to the park-keepers, had no precedent in the English statute book except it was the most severe enactment known to the English law—namely, sub-Section 9 of Section 54 of the Metropolitan Police Act. ["Divide!"] Surely hon. Gentlemen would give five minutes to the discussion in the British House of Commons of a clause giving summary powers of arrest to the park-keepers. If the clause were passed as it stood, most of the persons arrested under it would probably be taken into custody on Saturday afternoon after the police courts were closed, and the result would be that they would be locked up until Monday morning. This was a most serious grievance in this country. He earnestly appealed to the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government to accept the Amendment.
MR. BRUCEsaid, that under the Metropolitan Police Act persons might be arrested for committing certain offences
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without it being necessary to bring home to the offenders a knowledge of the regulations; but in regard to regulations made for special occasions, it was necessary to show that persons had knowingly infringed them. In order to attain that end, the rules and regulations necessary would be posted up in the Parks in all conspicuous places.
Amendment negatived.
MR. VERNON HARCOURTsaid, he must protest against this clause, because it gave extravagant, and he would say brutal powers to the park-keepers—because it made a preserve for the rich of the Royal Parks, and created a new criminal code for the country. ["Divide!"] The Bill would not be made more popular by its being known that those who protested against it were clamoured down.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he wished to know what was to be done with a person who was taken into custody under the provisions of the Act? Unless there were a constable in readiness to receive him at the Park gates, how was it possible that he should be detained?
MR. AYRTONsaid, the point was provided for by a subsequent part of the Act, which gave to those making the arrest all the powers conferred for such purposes under the Metropolitan Police Act.
MR. STRAIGHTpointed out that there was force in the objection of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), and that there should be some understanding as to the time during which persons should be kept in custody for the different offences in the schedules, which should be divided into two, one of which should be offences justifying arrest.
MR. AYRTONsaid, by Clause 7 the park-keepers would be endowed with the same powers as police constables.
MR. OTWAYsaid, he adopted the same view as the hon. and learned Member for Chester (Mr. Straight) of the propriety of dividing the schedule into two—one defining the offences for which the offender could be arrested, and the other the offence which would entail expulsion from the Parks.
MR. PLIMSOLLfeared that if the Bill passed, the enjoyment of the Parks by the respectable working men would be interfered with.
MR. NEVILLE-GRENYILLEsaid, that that was entirely a mistake. The Bill would really affect, not the working classes, but those bettermost classes who ought to be gentlemen, but were snobs. They would suffer from the operation of the Bill; the working classes would only be benefited by it.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

RAILWAY COMPANIES AMALGAMATION.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to The Lords to acquaint their Lordships, that this House hath appointed a Committee, which is to consist of Six Members, to join with a Committee of The Lords to inquire into the subject of the Amalgamation of Railway Companies, with special reference to the Bills for that purpose now before Parliament, and to consider whether any and what Regulations should be imposed by Parliament in the event of such Amalgamations being sanctioned; and to request that their Lordships will be pleased to appoint an equal number of Lords to be joined with the Members of this House.

BUILDING SOCIETIES BILL.
On Motion of Mr. GOURLEY, Bill to consolidate and amend the Laws regulating Building Societies, ordered to be brought in by Mr. GOURLEY, Sir ROUNPELL PALMER, Mr. TORRENS, Mr. WILLIAM HENRI SMITH, and Mr. DODDS.
Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 66.]
House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock till Monday next.

Preamble
Their Lordships met;—

AMALGAMATION OF RAILWAY COMPANIES.
Message from the Commons that they have appointed a Committee, to consist of six members, to join with a Committee of their Lordships to inquire into the subject of the Amalgamation of Railway Companies with special reference to the Bills for that purpose now before Parliament, and to consider whether any and what regulations should be imposed by Parliament in the event of such Amalgamations being sanctioned, and to request that their Lordships will be pleased to appoint an equal number of Lords to be joined with the Members of that House:
Ordered, That the said Message be taken into consideration on Monday next.
And having gone through the Business on the Paper, without debate—
House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.