Sitting of 28 June 1871

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Fifth Report—public Accounts [No. 321].
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Royal Parks* [217].
Committee—Burials [7]—R.P.
Third Reading—Sequestration* [208], and passed.
Withdrawn—Registration of Deeds, Wills, &c. (Middlesex) [36]) Railway Companies * [5]; Parish Churches [53].

REGISTRATION OF DEEDS, WILLS, &C. (MIDDLESEX) BILL— [BILL 36.]
(Mr. George Gregory, Mr. Cubitt, Mr. Hinde Palmer, Mr. Goldney.)
REGISTRATION OF DEEDS, WILLS, &C. (MIDDLESEX) BILL— [BILL 36.]

  COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  MR. G. B. GREGORY, in rising to move "That the Order for going into Committee on this Bill be discharged," said, that when he proposed the second reading of the Bill he stated that it was founded on the unanimous recommendation of a Committee which had inquired into the subject, and that the Attorney General concurred in the general object of the measure. The only opposition offered to the second reading was by the hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Leeman) who considered that it might be adopted as a precedent, and injuriously affect the registration system of the county with which he was connected, which had worked so well. But he thought the hon. and learned Member, on examining the Bill, must be convinced that it had no such tendency. He (Mr. Gregory) intimated at the time that he did not intend to proceed further on account of the pledge given by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General, that he should be

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  prepared to legislate on the subject during the ensuing Session, and it was his intention to withdraw the Bill. He hoped that the pledge would be redeemed; but he should re-introduce the present measure next Session, and would press it forward in case the hon. and learned Gentleman was not able to provide for the same objects. He withdrew the Bill with extreme regret, because he believed it would have been a step, though a limited one, towards reforming the law of the transfer of real property. Such a subject might have been dealt with in "another place," and he thought it was a reflection on the Government that they had not given the other branch of the Legislature an opportunity of considering such a measure. He would move—That the Order of the Day for going into Committee upon the Bill be discharged.
  MR. LEEMANsaid, the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General being absent, he wished to say a word in his defence against the complaint just made. During the last fortnight many complaints had been made on the Conservative side of the House that the Government had undertaken too many measures this Session. The Attorney General, on the second reading of the Bill, told his hon. Friend the Member for East Sussex (Mr. G. Gregory) that this subject required very great consideration, but he pledged himself to introduce, in the course of next Session, such a measure as his hon. Friend referred to. If the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General had introduced that measure this Session, what chance would he have had of passing it?
  MR. CUBITTsaid, he should regret the withdrawal of the Bill, as he believed it might have been successfully carried through Parliament if a vigorous effort had been made. He hoped, however, that such a measure would be passed next Session. He wished to point out that in connection with this registry there were three sinecure offices. One of those offices having become vacant, the Lord Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, who had the appointment in his absolute gift, had refrained from filing up the vacancy; but the public had as yet received no benefit from that, as the fees belonging to the vacated office had been divided in equal parts between the Consolidated Fund
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  and the two gentlemen who held the other sinecures, making their already too large incomes larger by £700 a-year each. Whenever a Bill on the subject was carried successfully through the House, he hoped those gentlemen would not be entitled to claim compensation for this windfall, in addition to the compensation which they would have a right to for the loss of their own salaries.
  Motion agreed to.
  Order discharged: Bill withdrawn.

RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL— [BILL 5.]
(Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson, Mr. Hinde Palmer, Mr. Rowland Winn.)
RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL— [BILL 5.]

  SECOND READING. ADJOURNED DEBATE.
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to Question [15th March], "That the Bill be now read a second time;" and which Amendment was, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words" upon this day three months."—(Mr. Leeman.)
  Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  Debate resumed.
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, that since the debate on this subject was adjourned the whole circumstances of the case had been very much altered. Many of the railway companies which were before endeavouring to do away with certain causes which led to accidents had continued in that course, and public attention having been drawn to the subject, two important matters had been very largely adopted—he referred to the use of the block system, and to interlocking signals and points. In addition to that, the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had fulfilled his sort of promise to deal with one portion of the subject, by introducing another Bill which, though it scarcely went far enough, would yet form an important addition to the security of the public in railway trevelling. Under these circumstances, he would now move—"That the Order for the second reading of the Bill be discharged."
  MR. A. PEELsaid, his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade stated when the Bill of the hon. Baronet the Member for West Essex (Sir

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  Henry Selwin-Ibbetson) was under discussion, that though there was much in it which he could not accept, yet there were many points of which he approved, and he had accordingly introduced a Bill to carry out the pledge which he had given. With regard to compensation for accidents, his right hon. Friend felt that it would not be advisable to fix a limit, particularly in the way proposed by the hon. Baronet, for there would be something invidious in limiting compensation according as people were first, second, or third-class passengers. His own opinion was, that the best remedy would be found in insurance. That would be the best test of the value which people put upon their lives. But though it was not possible for his right hon. Friend to agree with the scheme of compensation proposed by the hon. Baronet, he had taken into consideration the relation between masters and servants, a matter surrounded by great legal difficulties. He was hopeful that his right hon. Friend would be able at some future time to bring in a Bill which would do away with a great many of the figments of law which prevented responsibility from attaching to the right parties, and the persons injured from obtaining that compensation to which they were entitled.
  MR. LEEMANsaid, he was glad to hear that the Bill was to be withdrawn. For the information and satisfaction of the public at large, he begged to confirm what had been said by the hon. Baronet the Member for West Essex (Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson) as to the course pursued by the leading railway companies, who had on all the crowded portions of their lines, where the block system could be of use, largely adopted it, and also the system of interlocking. That he (Mr. Leeman) considered sufficient, for it would be useless to incur the cost of applying those systems to branch and main lines, where the traffic was frequently very light. While the companies considered that the Government Bill would impose on them many onerous obligations, they were, in deference to public feeling, content with the measure, and therefore no opposition would be offered on their part to the second reading, nor any Amendments proposed to the Bill as it stood.
  MR. BASSsaid, the railway companies owed a great debt of gratitude
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  to the hon. Baronet the Member for West Essex (Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson) for having presented them in that Bill with inducements, and, indeed, obligations, to correct their very imperfect system. Under present circumstances, the hon. Baronet had no alternative but to withdraw the Bill. For his own part, he could not express entire satisfaction with the Bill of the Board of Trade; but then it was matter for congratulation that it was the intention of the President of the Board of Trade to take into consideration some mode of bringing home to employers responsibility for injuries and deaths caused by their servants. Since that Bill had come under discussion the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Price), who was Chairman of the Midland Railway Company, had taken exception to a statement which he made about the servants of that company being overworked. His hon. Friend said there was no foundation for that statement. A subsequent conversation had led him to believe that that was a hasty expression of opinion on the part of his hon. Friend. He had desired his hon. Friend to point out a single point in which he was inaccurate, and his hon. Friend assured him that he could not. He regretted his hon. Friend was not present to acknowledge that he had not said a single word which was not fully justified.
  Amendment and Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Bill withdrawn.

PARISH CHURCHES BILL— [BILL 53.]
(Mr. West, Sir Percy Herbert, Mr. Hughes.)
PARISH CHURCHES BILL— [BILL 53.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. WEST, in rising to move that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that was not in any sense a Church question exclusively. If it affected the Church it affected Nonconformists also. The object of the Bill was to prevent for the future Bishops from granting faculties for pews in parish churches. There was also a provision in the Bill conferring upon churchwardens the right from time to time of controlling the arrangements in parish churches, so as to make them more convenient to the parishioners at large who wished to attend the services of the Church of

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  England. The system of granting faculties for permanently appropriating pews was a great evil, which few would deny. Previous to the Reformation, no such thing as the appropriation of pews existed in that country, and it was not recognized by the common law of the land. But after the Reformation there were several causes which led to the pew system. The enforcement of Calvinistic doctrines had something to do with it, for Calvinistic teaching was more generally enforced by sermons than by the union of the parishioners in prayer. There were very few people except the Roman Catholics who were not members of the Church of England, but the population was scattered. Churches were numerous, and there were more sittings in the parish churches than the inhabitants of the whole country could occupy. The system of appropriating pews accordingly grow up, and it was not very extraordinary that landowners and farmers should have sittings appropriated to them at a time when there were hardly any independent workmen, for the labourers connected with the great houses were regarded as domestic servants, and were supplied with seats in the pews of their masters. After a time great coldness came over the whole worship of the Church of England, and in many parish churches there was only one service, in others there were but two. When there was but one service the evil did not appear so prominently. Then, unfortunately, the archdeacons had neglected the duty imposed on them by the law of the country, and winked at the encroachments made by the upper and middle classes upon the common law rights of the parishioners. He might congratulate the House that neither cathedrals nor collegiate churches had ever come under this system, and, therefore, he was surprised that his hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Mr. Cawley), who was connected with a place which possessed a collegiate church—he meant Manchester—should have given Notice that he would move the rejection of the Bill. It might be said that the grievance intended to be remedied by that Bill was an imaginary grievance; but that was not so, for he had been informed of a case where, in a parish of 200 inhabitants, there was a church containing 10 pews, each of which would accommodate six persons. Eight of
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  those pews had, however, been appropriated, and only two were left for the accommodation of the parishioners generally. There were many services now held in our churches, and it was a great hardship that a person who only went to one service should be able to exclude other persons from his pew at the other services. It should also be remembered that the populations were increasing, and that there was no longer a sufficiency of room. The object of the present Bill had been approved of by a Royal Commission in 1832, and by a Committee in the House of Lords in 1858; and he believed that all that had recently happened in the Church of England tended to show the necessity for such a measure, for the very bitterness of religious controversies in the Church showed that they had arisen from a renewed intellectual life. It was that recommendation of the Committee of the House of Lords that he wished to embody in a law. He hoped the House would extend the comforts and the blessings of the Church of England services to a class of persons who were now excluded from them by the present system of keeping the pews closed. In conclusion, he begged to move that the Bill be now read the second time.
  MAJOR GENERAL SIR PERCY HERBERT, in seconding the Motion, said, they were all familiar with cases in which churches were blocked up with pews, and only a very small section of the area of the church left for the congregation at large, who had to seat themselves under the galleries, near the doors, and in the least comfortable places. School children were to be found in many churches sitting on the steps of the altar, simply because the area of the church was filled with large pews, many of them unoccupied or occupied by a few individuals only. Besides that, many churches had of late years been re-appropriated after the old pews had been taken away. To his own knowledge the seats in a considerable parish church had been rendered absolutely free according to law within the last 20 years, and afterwards allotted, he believed contrary to law, by the churchwardens. The consequence was, that the seats were now as much appropriated as they had ever been under the old pew system. In a case which came under his own personal knowledge, about

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  eight seats were allotted to the head of one family when he had six sons and daughters, and only two seats to a person lately married. The six sons and daughters had left the parish, having married and settled elsewhere, and the person to whom the eight seats were allotted still sat in the large pew, but the person who had only two seats assigned to him, and had now six or seven children, could not find a place to put them in. If such a practice affected the middle classes, how much more must it affect the poorer portion of the population, He did not wish in any way to prevent by this Bill the churchwardens from having full powers to make such regulations as might be necessary for the decent and proper conduct of divine worship. That power was especially needful in towns where the churchwardens could not award seats, and where the parishioners were often crowded out by strangers when a popular preacher performed the service. The Bill provided amply for a case of that kind. What he wished to secure was the undoubted right of the parishioners to go to their parish churches and share in the services conducted therein. To secure that end, he thought the}' ought to sacrifice any prejudices they might feel on the subject.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. West.)
  MR. CAWLEY, in moving that the Bill be read a second time that day three months, said, that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. West) had described the Bill as relating to ancient parish churches. [Mr. WEST: I did not use the word "ancient."] Well, if his hon. and learned Friend did not use the word, he argued only from abuses in ancient parish churches, and expressed his astonishment that he (Mr. Cawley) should be found opposing the Bill when the church in his own parish was free in the body for the use of the parishioners at large. But it was his experience in the parish of that collegiate church which led him to take so decided an opinion in regard to that Bill, which would affect that ancient parish church not as regarded the body merely, for which there was no necessity existing, but in regard to galleries erected by subscription, the proceeds
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  from which would be lost if that Bill passed into law. [Mr. BERESFORD HOPE: No, no; see the saving clause.] There was really nothing of the kind in it. The Bill professed to be declaratory and enacting. What was the meaning of declaratory? A declaratory Act was appropriate when a previous Act had been interpreted by the Courts of Law in a sense different from the intention of the Legislature. But if an Act was misunderstood by those whose duty it was to enforce it, then the Courts were the proper places to go to. But even supposing the law required to be altered in some respects, that Bill went entirely beyond the object. According to the interpretation clause, the word "parish" was not to mean simply the mother or ancient parish, but any separate, legally constituted ecclesiastical district. The Bill would, therefore, apply to the 70 or 80 parishes into which, for ecclesiastical purposes, the ancient parish of Manchester had been divided. And what did the Bill propose to enact in the case of the churches in those parishes, and in every ecclesiastical district throughout England and Wales? Why, that the entire area of the church, inclusive of the galleries, should be devoted to the free and equal use of all the parishioners of a parish. Now, the effect of such an enactment in the case of a large number of churches would be to leave the incumbent or the rector without any income, except such as might be voluntarily subscribed for him. Where sufficient provision was made for the clergyman he had not the slightest objection to the abolition of pew-rents; but so long as such provision was not made, and the clergyman was left dependent on the congregation, he was not prepared for their abolition. Although many believed that more would be obtained for the support of the minister in that way than there was at present, yet he had no wish to see a state of things which had been described by a Nonconformist clergyman, who spoke of himself as the dependent minister of an independent congregation. Why, he should like to know, should not parishioners who attended the parish church undertake to pay a certain sum for the support of the clergyman, just as they undertook other payments which were not enforced by law? It was a mistake to suppose that the Bill

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  would not affect existing pew-rents, and if his hon. and learned Friend meant that it should only apply to future churches, he should withdraw it and introduce another Bill in its stead, with its object stated plainly on the face of it. His hon. and learned Friend, he might add, ought to know that in every church which was made a parish church it was not only the right, but the duty of the churchwardens to seat people in the pews, and that although there were instances in which some ill-conditioned people prevented their seats from being occupied by others, although they only partially occupied them themselves, such instances were the exception and not the rule, and churchwardens could guard against them, except where, by a faculty, the occupier of the pew had the right to lock the door. Indeed, a remedy for the state of things complained of was, he thought, to be provided lather by the effect of public opinion and the good feeling of the congregation than by any legislative measure. How, he should like to know, in parishes or large towns were the churchwardens to tell who was a parishioner and who was not? If an attractive preacher drew considerable numbers to a particular church, was the churchwarden to take his stand at the door and keep everyone out until the parishioners were all seated, or until he had ascertained that they were not coming to church? It was quite clear that unless some right were given to prevent the occupation of seats until a certain time, the real parishioners would, in the majority of cases, be excluded from their own pews. He was aware that it was said the experiment had been tried, and had been found successful. But those cases were very few. In one instance in Manchester which had been referred to, proving the success of the experiment in a pecuniary point of view, he ventured to assert that the congregation was not composed of parishioners belonging to the church, but of persons holding particular views who supported it, coming to it from surrounding parishes. His hon. and learned Friend would recollect one case which had been spoken of as a success, in which the clergyman found himself driven to such straits that he was obliged to take up his residence in the tower of his church in order that he might have no rent to pay; but, unfortunately, certain officials
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  who were wide awake assessed the church and the tower as a dwelling-house, so that the clergyman discovered that he was in a worse position than if he had occupied a house. He now came to the 5th clause of the Bill, which provided for the equal distribution of the seats to rich and poor throughout the church. If by that it was meant that the churchwarden was to take care that rich and poor should be interspersed, was it, he would ask, so long as social distinctions continued to exist, desirable that the poor man should be reminded of them by the greater proximity in which he would be placed to his rich neighbour in the church? His hon. and learned Friend would, he thought, find that the religious poor would much prefer being able to have their own seats, where they could worship by the sides of their wives and children. He admitted nothing could be worse than placing the free seats in the worst part of the church; but he was happy to say that the practice was being discontinued. The Bill as it was brought forward, by absolutely prohibiting the taking of pew-rents in any existing church of a parish or ecclesiastical district, was totally different from the measure which his hon. and learned Friend had first advocated. It would produce a complete revolution in the state of our ecclesiastical relations, and create great confusion. When provision was made for the endowment of all churches in the land, then they might do away with pew-rents; but until then they ought not, by a violent measure such as this, to introduce a change contrary to the general feeling and the all but universal practice of the various churches of the land. Entertaining these views with respect to the Bill, he should move that it be read a second time that day three months.
  MR. D. DALRYMPLEseconded the Amendment, on the ground that the Bill would create an amount of disturbance and inconvenience in parishes which would far exceed any benefits which it was likely to confer. The object which his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. West) had in view — that of filling their churches with all classes of people who might wish to go there to worship—was one which must, of course, commend itself to every man; but under the operations of the 5th clause, earnest, regular church-going people would not

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  like to find the seats which they had been accustomed to occupy every Sunday morning when they went to church taken up by others, and the books of devotion which they might have left there removed elsewhere. Not desiring to encounter such a state of things once a-week, they would be put to the inconvenience of going to church a-half or a-quarter of an hour sooner in order to get their seats. He quite concurred, also, in the opinion expressed by the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. Cawley), that the poor would prefer worshipping among themselves to being mixed up indiscriminately with persons who happened to be in a higher social position; and it should be borne in mind that high and low were equally worshippers wherever the seats which they occupied might be situated. Not only that, but great confusion would arise, especially in country parishes, from an alteration of the law; and, consequently, the churches would be less filled. If they desired to fill the churches, clergymen should have more regard to the character of their congregations, and not preach over the heads of the greater portion of the number.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."—(Mr. Cawley.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he felt some difficulty with regard to the Bill, in the form in which it was presented to the House. With the principles of the Bill he had almost entire sympathy; but with its machinery he had many faults to find. The course he should adopt would depend upon whether the hon. Mover would be content, upon that stage, either to leave the Bill for the consideration of the country during the Recess, or refer it to a Select Committee; or whether he would claim to make further progress. If the hon. Mover pursued either plan, the Bill might be read a second time without the House being committed to its details, although he confessed to an aversion for purposeless second readings. A declaratory Bill such as that was generally had the effect of weakening the old common law, which it was intended to strengthen, and, therefore, he doubted whether the Bill was necessary; but as
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  he could not vote that the principle contained in the Bill was unsound, he could not support the Amendment. He welcomed the introduction of that Bill as a proof of the growth of public opinion in the right direction. He was proud to own that he had in his youth come forward as one of the earliest opponents of the pew system, and while still an undergraduate at Cambridge had become a member of the Camden Society, which, in consequence of preaching a crusade against the abuse by word of mouth, by pamphlet, and by hand-bill, was regarded as revolutionary and dangerous. The cause which then they advocated had, in the intervening years, become so far triumphant that the statutable recognition of open seats in churches had on that afternoon become the subject of Parliamentary debate. Still, he must ask whether it would not be far better to have left the question to work itself out, with the aid of increased good feeling throughout the country? The congregational principle, in the working of town parishes, was, no doubt, absolutely necessary in the existing conditions of the Church, but it was nevertheless a now principle, and the Bill failed in adequately recognizing that novel and important clement in the Church polity. Before considering the clauses of the Bill, he must say something about the objections which had been urged against its principles. He did not think much of the plea that churchwardens could not know all the parishioners, and still less of the argument rough-hewn by the hon. and learned Member for Salford (Mr. Cawley), and elaborated by the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. D. Dalrymplc), with details which astonished him as proceeding from the mouth of a Gentleman of advanced Liberal opinions—that the best method of promoting humbleness of mind was to put the gentle portion of the congregation by themselves, without their being irritated by the spectacle of their poorer brethren, who, as the hon. Gentleman said, might go to the free seats and be contented. He remembered having many years ago to seek a church where his household could I worship. He went to the individual who let the pews in a chapel of case near his residence, and he said he wished to take a pew. The man produced a plan, and he selected the one nearest the pulpit and the reading desk. But, unluckily, he dropped the observation

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  that the pew was for his servants; whereupon the man said—"You don't mean that you are taking the pew for your livery servants?" On his saying—"Yes, I am," he received the reply—"Then I cannot let it you, for if livery servants were to come to the pew, all the ladies and gentlemen in the neighbouring pews would cease to attend." He need hardly add that his most prominent feeling was regret at his unseasonable frankness. Now to come to the question, was that Bill, as it stood, one which ought to be, or which could become the law of the land? He thought it showed signs of haste in the way it had been framed—and in various places its language was ambiguous. He took exception to the 5th clause—indeed, it baffled his power of comprehension. The first portion of the clause recited that it should not be lawful for any Bishop or churchwarden to allot, assign, or appropriate any seat in parish churches, and provided that all parishioners should equally enjoy the use of the church. The first part of the clause forbade churchwardens to appropriate seats; but the latter part allowed churchwardens to direct and order the appropriation of seats by parishioners and others, so that due order and decorum should be observed. In treating that subject it was necessary to take account of that Congregationalism which had, fortunately as he thought, become a portion of the Church system in our towns, in relief of that strict parochialism which was no longer applicable to their case. It must not be forgotten that, as between town and country, these were totally distinct questions. In towns the feeling of liberty in the use of the seats grew with the growth of the parish and with the development of congregationalism; but in the country there was a traditional clinging to the certain corner of the church where each person was accustomed to worship; while the necessary respect which existed between the different classes of society induced the congregation to like to see the landed proprietor in one part of the church, the doctor in another part, and so on. A clause so ambiguous as this 5th one, with its hazy distinction between appropriating and ordering, ought not to stand part of any Bill. At the same time, he must say that the hon. and learned Member for Salford ran off on a siding when he declaimed against that arrangement which placed men on one side of a
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  church and women on the other. He (Mr. Beresford Hope) wished to point out that that division of the sexes was not a modern innovation. It was the custom in many of the old parish churches in England, and had been the custom from time immemorial, and it had only been re-adopted in new churches because it was found consonant with the feelings of worship. It was, however, foolish of any clergyman to try to force on the custom where it was not liked. There were two churches in different counties with which he was connected—in one the division of the sexes was observed, and in the other it was not, in each case with the goodwill of the parish; and he followed the rule as it was laid down at both churches. As to Clause 8—
  "That nothing contained in this Act shall prevent the chancel of any church from being used by the officiating ministers and others assisting in the conduct of Divine service "—
  he agreed with that; but he pointed out that all through this provision there was no recognition of what he believed to be undoubtedly the common law of the land—namely, that while the nave of the church belonged to the parishioners, I the chancel belonged to the rector. In saying that the chancel belonged to the rector, what the law meant to say was that the chancel should be the part of the church in which the rector and those who assisted him in Divine worship should carry on that worship; and as regarded that point, he thought the Bill, by its silence, was likely to be disturbing. Before, however, he sat down, he must revert to the vagueness of the description of "parish church" in Clause 2—namely, "the consecrated places of worship of the parish." That would include, he believed, any consecrated chapel without cure of souls, which ought not to be put under the compulsory provisions of such an Act. As a proof of the way in which such consecrated chapels—of which there were many—might be worked, he would state that the late Bishop of London, Bishop Blomfield, recommended the consecration of a church—which had since become a parish church—without the cure of souls, because it was a church in which a musical and ornate service was proposed to be carried out, and, in consequence, he advised that it should not be a parish church, so that it would not be brought in contact with parisbioners having legal

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  rights. On these grounds he (Mr. Beresford Hope) could not accept the Bill, which, if his hon. and learned Friend would excuse him for saying so, was not a workmanlike production, and which, if passed in its present form, would, he believed, produce confusion. Whilst he said that, however, he was as little disposed to accept the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Salford. If the House adopted the Motion, they would be stereotyping one of the greatest abuses in the practical working of the Church—an abuse which had done more to alienate people from the Church, and which had gone further in checking the spiritual growth of the Church, than anything else—namely, the detestable system of pew-rents. It was impossible to suppose that that Bill could become the law of the land. Some might vote for it, though they disliked the details of the Bill; others, who did not like pew-rents, might be compelled to go into the lobby with the hon. and learned Member for Salford. In his (Mr. Beresford Hope's) opinion, however, the cause of open churches, which he had advocated, would be better served by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ipswich (Mr. West) withdrawing the Bill, after the friendly and ample discussion which he hoped it would receive.
  MR. HEADLAMsaid, he thought that the effect of the Bill, even if carried, would be infinitely small, and would not be productive of the results expected from it. The most important clause was the 4th, which took away the power that existed of granting faculties with respect to pews. He did not think there were any faculties of that description in existence, at least none were presented at the present day. Sometimes a person had a legal right to a seat in a church, and when the church was repewed he stipulated that he should have some seat in the place of the one he had before. He did not know any other case in which faculties were granted, and, therefore, the effect of the clause was so small that it was not worth while introducing a Bill to deal with it. With respect to pew-rents, if the hon. and learned Member who introduced the Bill (Mr. West) wished to legislate on them, it should be done by more precise language than had been employed in the Bill. On the whole, he could not see any real good from the measure, and he hoped it would not be pressed on the House, especially
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  as there was no chance of its becoming law that Session.
  MR. BIRLEYsaid, it was impossible to exaggerate the evils of the present system of the appropriation of pews. He approved, therefore, the motives of the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. West) in introducing that measure. But the Bill as drawn contained defects which could not be cured in Committee, and it would, therefore, be his duty to support the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Salford (Mr. Cawley.) The object of those who supported the measure was described as being the restoration to the parishioners of their ancient rights in the parish church. Now, the ancient law was, that it was the duty of the churchwardens to seat the parishioners according to their quality and degree. There was no wish to restore such a state of things, but to throw open the parish church to parishioners without respect of persons. It should be remembered, however, that the class feeling in this matter was not altogether on the side of the rich, for those in humble stations felt just as great reluctance to associate with those above them, and he had no doubt that in "free and open" churches many of the humbler parishioners were deterred from attending, because they would find themselves by the side of those who came in gay clothing. The enforced separation of families was also a point for consideration. Regard must be had to the domestic feeling—the wish of families to worship together; and it was to be feared that sometimes the separation of families would rather conduce to flirtation than to edification among the young people. What was wanted was a place for everybody and everybody in his place. In churches which were free and open a custom had arisen under which families took their accustomed seats, and, legislate as they would, a custom of that kind would always grow up. He would always, however, desire to maintain the rights of the poorer parishioners, giving them an easy opportunity of obtaining at least as good seats us any occupied by the wealthier parishioners.
  MR. DILLWYNsaid, he heartily approved of the principle of the Bill, but he entertained great objections to the mode in which the system of pew-rents was to be dealt with. He opposed the system in which large spaces in a church

  713
  were allotted to great families, and large square pews kept for no object whatever. He desired to see churches retained for the free use of the public, and he also desired to see that they were maintained, which they would not be if that Bill were passed. Some small sum should be taken for a portion of the sittings, in order that the structure of the church might be maintained, now that church rates had been abolished. He should be sorry to see the Bill passed, because it would practically preclude church wardens from adopting that system.
  MR. ILLINGWORTHsaid, he did not mean to say that he did not sympathize with the principle of the Bill, but he knew that several experiments of a similar plan to that proposed by the Bill had been abandoned after trial, and he thought it would be unfair towards the founders of churches in new ecclesiastical districts to compel them to throw themselves on the voluntary principle.
  DR. BALLsaid, he was not prepared to agree with the proposition that the existing law was open to the objection that had been brought against it. On the contrary, he was of opinion that if the present law was properly administered it would be found adequate to meet the case for which this Bill had been introduced. There were two separate matters for consideration. First, the power of granting the permanent ownership or right in pews; and, secondly, the allocation or distribution of the seating of the parishioners for a permanent or temporary purpose. Any faculty which enabled a nonresident to hold a pew in a parish church was void. For that reason a faculty to a man and his heirs was void, and the only legal faculty was that which granted a pew to a man and his family so long as they were resident in the parish, or that which made a particular pew appurtenant to a particular messuage. It was now proposed to take away the power of granting faculties, though not to abolish the right of prescription. He believed that title by prescription was of the most limited character, as it was not easy to assort a right founded upon that title. It must be done by something besides occupation, such as repairing a pew. Putting cushions in a pew was no proof of an original prescriptive right, because it was equally consistent with permissive and temporary enjoyment. With these
  714
  prescriptive titles the Bill did not interfere; but it proposed to deal with the future authority of the Bishops, and to deprive them entirely of their right to grant faculties. It was a right that was exercised most sparingly by them, and there was no pressing demand for taking the power from them. There was a wide difference between universal prohibition and regulating the occasional and proper exercise of a right, and all he contended for was, that they should give the ordinary power to deal with exceptional cases; and he was the more strongly disposed that it should be so, in consequence of the alterations that were about to be made in the mode of procedure in the Ecclesiastical Courts, which would place the jurisdiction more in the hands of the chancellors who, being lawyers, would be guided by legal views and principles. Then, as to seating the parishioners, every parishioner had a right to a seat, and the distribution of seats was now subject to the control of the ordinary, and he desired to see that retained. The existing law properly administered would meet the evils complained of, and ensure a seat to every parishioner. The Bill proposed a total change in the law, and his reason for addressing the House was to show that by administering and working out the present law, they might accomplish much which the Bill proposed to deal with. He was not disposed to throw their own churches entirely open like the Continental churches. He thought there was something to be said in favour of a family all worshipping together in the same pew. He would therefore have, in each church, both pews and free seats: and that every Bishop could, if he chose, under the existing law enforce; his discretion being the rule, except where prescriptive titles—which, as already explained, were not numerous—obstructed.
  MR. COLLINSsaid, that while thanking the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich, he regretted that his Bill did not deal with past as well as future faculties. He did not want to have faculties abolished; but that the Bishop, upon cause being shown, should have the power to annul any particular one. At present faculties were very rarely granted by Bishops; but there were no means, except by Act of Parliament, of getting rid of the difficulty that at present existed. The granting of faculties was an encroachment on the rights of

  715
  the parishioners generally, and it was a practical and not a theoretical grievance. He knew of a church where every person except one who had a faculty had surrendered them in order that the church might be re-seated. The floor of the church had been lowered two feet from its original level, and the result was that this one stood like a four-poster in the church high above the rest of the seats. He should like to see all the seats of the churches of the country clear and unappropriated, and thought there should be some power of getting rid of faculty pews, for it was monstrous to suppose that an Act of Parliament must be got before they could reseat a parish church. It would have been better if the Bill had been confined to the old parish church, because the question of pew-rents would not then have arisen. He hoped that next year, when it was brought in, it would be so confined, and that those other defects that had been pointed out would be amended. It would be better to withdraw the Bill than take a division on it, which would not be a fair expression of the opinion of Parliament.
  MR. AKROYDsaid, that being churchwarden in his own parish, he knew the great difficulty there was of preserving seats for the poor in those churches which had free sitting's, if there happened to be a popular preacher attached to them. He looked upon the Bill as an ingenious scheme for depriving the poorer parishioners of seats in their parish churches, and as such he was determined to oppose it.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, he thought it was unfortunate that that Bill should have been brought in just at that particular time. In half the parish churches in the rural districts there was plenty of room for everybody without necessitating any of those changes, and therefore to commence such a disturbance of established customs would cause much ill-feeling and mischief. The people were exceedingly sensitive and tender about their seats in the parish church, and to cause any disturbance in the enjoyment of them would be to put an end to all voluntary church rates. The hon. and learned Member for Boston (Mr. Collins) had evidently got a very troublesome case to deal with, but changes in the law must not rest on individual cases. Galleries in churches had been built under faculties, and the seats se-
  716
  cured in them; but the hon. and learned Gentleman, who no doubt thought them a nuisance, would have them swept away. It showed how difficult it was to deal with those private arrangements. The ordinary, on the requisition of the inhabitants and the churchwardens, had a perfect right to deal as he thought right with respect to the general accomodation of the parishioners. This Bill would unsettle everything and settle nothing, and he doubted if anything could be devised better than the existing law. They should bear this in mind—that the churches had to be maintained not by public law or authority, but by voluntary aid. He did not believe that the humbler classes themselves desired to see the parish churches managed in such a way as to allow the costermonger a seat beside that of a duchess. It reminded him of the couplet which says that—
  "Something the devil delights to see
  Is the pride that apes humility."
  He would, for those reasons, appeal to the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. West) to withdraw the Bill.
  MR. PELLsaid, that the clause which dealt with the authority of churchwardens was a somewhat mischievous one. They were all, no doubt, anxious to see the parish churches in the condition of what was called free; but it was the business of churchwardens to make such changes in the area of their churches as from time to time might better suit the convenience of all classes of the congregation. The 5th clause, however, would interfere with those unties of the churchwardens, and against that clause he would offer every opposition.
  MR. WEST, in reply, said, he would take the whole responsibility of the Bill upon himself. Considering, however, the difficulties of passing it in the present Session, he should adopt the advice of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) and withdraw the measure, in the hope that he, or some one more competent to deal with it, might be enabled to introduce and carry a measure on the subject next Session. The discussion which had occurred would not be without use, if the speech made by the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Dr. Ball) were made generally known and acted upon.
  Amendment and Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Bill withdrawn.

BURIALS BILL — [BILL 7.]
(Mr. Osborne Morgan, Mr. Hadfield, Mr. M'Arthur.)
BURIALS BILL — [BILL 7.]

  COMMITTEE. [Progress 7th June.]
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 2 (Burial to take place in accordance with notice).
  MR. HEYGATE, in rising to move that the Chairman do leave the Chair, said, it was impossible that the author of this Bill could entertain any hope of passing his Bill that Session. The public mind had recently been awakened to the importance of this subject. An article in the leading journal the other day had called attention to it, and suggested the proper solution of the question—namely, that the burial service of the Church of England alone should be allowed within the churchyard, and that any service desired by the relatives of Nonconformists should be held either at the chapel or the private house of the deceased. That was the principle of the Bill brought forward in "another place," and he hoped it would be accepted as a settlement of the question.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr Heygate.)
  MR. OSBORNE MORGANsaid, he thought he had some reason to complain of the course taken by the opponents of that Bill. After a very long discussion the second reading was carried by a large majority. About three weeks ago, the Amendment to postpone the Committee on the Bill, after a discussion which lasted three hours, was defeated by a majority of 71. Then, upon the consideration of the 1st clause, which contained the whole machinery of the Bill, there were made 44 speeches; and there took place four divisions. If there had not been discussion enough on the Bill, he was at a loss to know how much more was necessary.
  MR. MOWBRAYsaid, the arguments used by the hon. and learned Member for Denbigh (Mr. Osborne Morgan) against the Motion of the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr. Heygate) were in reality arguments in favour of it. Surely the prolonged opposition which was offered to the Bill proved that there was a very strong feeling against it.
  718
  He would also remind the hon. and learned Member that the last Amendment moved against the 1st clause by the hon. Member for West Kent (Mr. J. G. Talbot) was only defeated by a majority of 2. The Bill consisted of 14 clauses and 2 schedules. If one clause; occupied 44 speeches and four divisions, he would ask what time was it likely to take in order to get through 13 clauses and 2 schedules. He believed that the feeling of the country was now very much changed in respect to this Bill.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he would press upon the hon. and learned Gentleman who had charge of the Bill the propriety of acceding to the Motion of the hon. Member for South Leicestershire, with the view to the ultimate pacific settlement of this question.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 131; Noes 157: Majority 26.
  MR. G. B. GREGORY MR. G. B. GREGORY moved an Amendment in page 1, line 26, after "notice," to insert—
  "Shall be delivered to or left at the usual place of abode of such rector, vicar, or other incumbent or officiating minister, or such other person to be appointed as aforesaid, two clear days at least before such burial shall take place."
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. SALT MR. SALT moved an. Amendment, in line 26, to provide that the "address and occupation" as well as the name of the person to officiate should be stated. His object was to secure that the service should be performed by a respectable person who was in some degree known, and such a person could have no difficulty in stating what his occupation was.
  MR. OSBORNE MORGANsaid, he did not think that any security would be gained by inserting the word "occupation," as that might be in many instances open to vague description.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsubmitted that a man who could not state definitely what his occupation was ought not to be permitted to officiate in a churchyard; such a man could surely say whether he was an itinerant lecturer or a phrenologist. The possibility that persons pretending to be ministers, whose education was so deficient that they could not say what they were, might perform service in churchyards, was sufficient to justify clergymen in resisting this Bill. Their only safeguard

  719
  was in a definite statement of occupation, and the Amendment ought to be cheerfully conceded.
  MR. COLLINSsaid, that if the Amendment were accepted, there would have to be a clause imposing a penalty on a person who made a false statement of his occupation, and the Amendment would be better out of the Bill than in it.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he was surprised to hear the suggestion that a person who was to perform a funeral service in a churchyard might make a false statement of his occupation. There was nothing in requiring such a statement, for there was not a Member of the House who had not to make it on signing a legal document.
  MR. CANDLISHsaid, he could see no objection to the Amendment if it would secure any good result; but it would not, because there was no power to reject the person named if his occupation were objectionable.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHpointed out that the discussion would be rendered useless if the Committee accepted a subsequent Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Last Sussex (Mr. G. B. Gregory), to leave out the words "or other person or persons."
  MR. OSBORNE MORGANsaid, in what they were discussing, they were merely fighting about a shadow.
  SIR JOHN TRELAWNYsaid, he was of opinion that the clergy of the Church of England should be considered as much as possible in those matters which had reference to the churchyards.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. G. B. GREGORYthen moved the omission of the words "or other person or persons," which, he said, were infinitely too wide. It was intended by the Bill that the service should be a religious one, and, if so, it ought to be performed by a minister of religion only.
  Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 26, to leave out the words "or other person or persons."—(Mr. George Gregory.)
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, that provision ought to be made for occasions on which, perhaps, more than one minister would officiate, and for that reason the Amendment proposed would hardly go far enough.
  MR. OSBORNE MORGANsaid, that he thought there was a good deal of force in the suggestion, and he intended to comply with it by inserting in the 4th clause words limiting the right of performing the service to ministers or recognized preachers.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, that if a "recognized preacher" was a minister, he would come under that designation; but the words "recognized preacher" opened a very wide door which would admit all who had ever been allowed to preach.
  MR. BRUCEsaid, he thought the object of the promoters of the Bill and of the majority of the House might be met by having a clause to define the meaning of the word minister. In Wales there were many sects, some congregations of which had no ordained ministers, but accepted the occasional ministrations of members, who were generally and deservedly respected, and whom it would be a hardship to prevent performing a service over one of their number. It might shorten discussion to relegate the difficulty to a clause defining those who were to perform the service in the absence of an ordained minister.
  MR. OSBORNE MORGANsaid, he would accept the Amendment, and endeavour to bring up a clause containing suitable definitions.
  MR. COLLINSsaid, there was no such thing known to the law as a "recognized minister," and, therefore, there would be difficulty in adopting the words proposed.
  MR. PELLsaid, a definite clause would involve lengthened and acrimonious discussion, for there would be great difficulty in defining what constituted a "recognized minister."
  MR. SALTsaid, he would suggest that the Home Secretary should attempt to define, not only "minister," but the form of service to be used, for uncertainty as to what would be said and done in the services constituted the great grievance of clergymen, whose objections would be removed if the service were prescribed.
  MR. CANDLISHsaid, that Churchmen should allow to others the freedom they claimed for themselves.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, that what that amounted to was the disestablishment of the Church of England.
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsuggested the postponement of the clause.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, that the clause had been amended, and it could not, therefore, he postponed.
  LORD HENRY SCOTT, to show the difficulty of defining a minister, cited from a Return on the Irish Census the names of a few sects, including Brethren, Brethren in Christ, Derbyites, Freethinkers, Socialists, New Life, Old Life, Seceders, Sinners Saved by Grace, Walkerites, and he added that he did not see how the difficulty could be met without having a registry of ministers.
  MR. BRUCEsaid, the noble Lord the Member for South Hampshire had shown that the subject was surrounded with difficulty, but the reference he had made to Ireland was the most decisive he could have made against his own view of the case, for in Ireland, where there existed the sects that had been named, the law that the priest or minister of any sect could officiate at the grave of the deceased had been in force a number of years, and no one had been able to show that the slightest scandal had arisen in consequence. The fact was that hon. Members on his side of the House were extremely anxious to meet anything like solid objection to this Bill, and, believing it would be a concession valued by the other side if the services were performed by some person who was a "recognized minister," they had suggested an Amendment in that sense.
  MR. MOWBRAYsaid, he should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would favour the Committee with some account of the practical working of the law in Ireland. Perhaps he would also state how he proposed to define the word "minister."
  MR. BRUCEsaid, that if hon. Gentlemen were dissatisfied with the interpretation clause when it was introduced, it would then be the time for them to urge objections to it.
  SIR GEORGE GREYalso hoped hon. Members would confine their remarks to the subject immediately under consideration. He thought the Amendment would greatly improve the Bill.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEpointed out that any person who thought he was a minister, and was so regarded by his congregation, but who was not one under this clause, would be placed in an invidious and inferior position, and
  722
  would have a right to remonstrate. Dissenters would have a right to consider the proposed definition as an interference with their religious liberty.
  MR. OSBORNE MORGANreminded the Committee that Dissenting ministers were mentioned in the Jury Acts, and exempted from serving on juries.
  MR. COLLINSsaid, some Quakers and Wesleyans might prefer to have the service said over their graves by a member of the family who was not a recognized preacher. It would be a hardship on the laity of the Church of England and other communions if they had not the same rights as were conferred on persons called "recognized ministers." He was, therefore, wholly opposed to the Amendment.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 141; Noes 137: Majority 4.
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON moved to report Progress, as a misunderstanding had arisen on the last division. Although the hon. and learned Member for Denbighshire had accepted the Amendment, he had voted against it, and the Committee had not been fairly dealt with.
  MR. OSBORNE MORGANexplained that he had only agreed to the Amendment on the understanding that he should be allowed to bring up an interpretation clause, his object being to include in the term "minister" a recognized local preacher. As, however, hon. Gentlemen opposite objected to the interpretation clause, he felt bound to vote against the Amendment.
  MR. COLLINSsaid, that if anyone besides clergymen of the Church of England were to come into the churchyards, he would not consent to any distinction being drawn between a Dissenting minister and a Dissenting preacher.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSremarked that, although hon. Gentlemen on that side might have objected to the interpretation clause, that was not the act of the House. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Osborne Morgan) had undoubtedly accepted in the fullest manner the Amendment proposed by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Sussex (Mr. G. B. Gregory). It

  723
  was, in his opinion, high time to report Progress, as the Home Secretary had also voted against the Amendment.
  MR. BRUCE: I beg to say I did not vote.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, that if the right hon. Gentleman did not vote against the Amendment, he did not vote at all. That certainly was not the way in which the House of Commons ought to be led.
  MR. G. B. GREGORYsaid, he had not opposed the hon. and learned Gentleman's suggestion about bringing up an interpretation clause.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, that his criticisms did not afford a sufficient ground for the hon. and learned Gentleman breaking the engagement he had entered into.
  MR. OSBORNE MORGANsaid, he had only consented to the Amendment on the understanding that a clause was to be introduced for the purpose of including recognized local preachers.
  It being now a quarter to Six of the clock.
  House resumed.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  ROYAL PARKS BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. AYRTON, Bill for the regulation of the Royal Parks, ordered to be brought in by Mr. AYRTON and Mr. BAXTER.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 217.]
  House adjourned at Ten minutes before Six o'clock.

Preamble
Their Lordships met;—and having gone through the Business on the Paper, without debate—
House adjourned at four o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.