Sitting of 24 July 1871

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Second Report—Diplomatic and Consular Services [No. 380].
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Statute Law Revision * [263]; Union of Benefices Acts Amendment* [264]; Clerk of the Peace * [265].
Second Reading—Feudal and Burgage Tenure (Scotland)* [251]; Beerhouses (Ireland)* [259]; Summary Jurisdiction, &c. (Ireland)* [253]; Limited Owners Residence Act (1870) Amendment* [261].
Committee—Elections (Parliamentary and Municipal) (re-comm.) [103]—R.P.; Local Government Board [230] — R.P.; Treasurers of Rates * [120], debate further adjourned.
Considered as amended — Intoxicating Liquors Licences Suspension [234–262]; Industrial and Provident Societies Amendment* [240].
Third Reading—Juries (Ireland)* [231], and Passed.
Withdrawn—Intoxicating Liquors (New Licences) (re-comm.) * [219]; Lunacy Regulation Amendment* [214]; Royal Parka and Gardens (re-comm.)* [258].

DUTIES AND DRAWBACKS ON SUGAR.

  QUESTION.
  MR. MACFIEasked, the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the French Government is now willing to fulfil its engagement to conform its Duties and drawbacks on sugar to the obligations it assumed as a party to the International Convention by making the changes which it promised to make from the 30th June last; and, if no intimation to this effect has been received, what course her Majesty's Government intend to take in order to secure such conformity?
  VISCOUNT ENFIELD: Sir, the French Government have stated to Lord Lyons that political circumstances alone have prevented the French Government from fulfilling, within the period which it had itself suggested, the engagement which it had contracted towards the three other Powers, parties to the Convention of November 8, 1864, to establish an exact correlation between the Duties on sugar and the yields fixed by the Declaration of the 20th November, 1866. M. Jules Favre has called the attention of the Ministers of Commerce and Finance to this matter, and he hopes soon to be able to inform Lord Lyons of the measures which will have been taken for the purpose of settling it.

PERSONAL SECURITY OF WOMEN.

  QUESTION.
  MR. JACOB BRIGHTasked the First Lord of the Treasury, If he is aware that in the borough of Southampton, from September last year to June of this year, twenty-nine women went to prison, seven of them going a second time and two a third time, in some cases with hard labour, rather than submit themselves to the hands of the State surgeon; whether it is not true that there are, over a considerable portion of the kingdom, agents of the Admiralty and of the War Office, whose business it is to watch women in order to subject them to similar usage; and whether, in the opinion of the Government, the personal security of women in this country is now what it ought to be, or such as the Law carefully guarantees to men?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I need not say, Sir, that I have no original knowledge of the facts to which the question of my hon. Friend refers; but I have made inquiry, and I understand that the facts are as follows:—That between September of last year and June of the present year 29 persons, women, were sent to prison; seven of them were subsequently committed for a second time, and two of them were sentenced a third time, but were only sent to prison twice. With regard to the second question, I am not aware and cannot learn that there are over any portion of the kingdom any agents of the Admiralty and of the War Office whose business it is to watch women in order to subject them to similar usage. I understand that the Act of Parliament devolves certain duties upon the police force of the country; these duties are performed; but the War Office and the Admiralty, I am assured, have no agents whatever employed for the purpose indicated by my non. Friend. With regard to the third question, which refers rather to a matter of opinion than of fact, Her Majesty's Government have advised the Crown to appoint a Commission, in order to examine whether the personal security of women has all the guarantees on which it ought to rest by the Act. The Commission, as my hon. Friend knows, has reported, and the Secretary of State for the Home Department stated to the House on a former evening that although he was not prepared to make any im-

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  mediate proposal on the subject the Report of the Commission is a very proper subject for the consideration of Parliament.

EMIGRANTS—WESTERN AUSTRALIA.

  QUESTION.
  ALDERMAN SIR JAMES LAWRENCEasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether, considering the favourable reports recently received from Western Australia, the Government are now prepared to fulfil their engagement to provide free passages for emigrants to that Colony?
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN: Sir, although the accounts of the progress of the colony are generally satisfactory, the latest authentic reports on the state of the labour market in Western Australia show that immigrants arriving there direct from England would not be likely to obtain permanent employment, but would pass on to the other Australian colonies. Until a different state of circumstances can be shown it is not thought desirable to send out immigrants to that colony.

MEDICAL SERVICE IN INDIA.

  QUESTIONS.
  COLONEL SYKESasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether Doctors Gopal Chunder Roy and Krishna Dhurr Ghose, who came to England to compete for commissions in the Medical Service in India, and have obtained the prescribed degrees in medicine and surgery, but are debarred from reaping the reward of their studies and outlay by the competitive competitions being from time to time postponed on the ground of medical officers not being required in India may, nevertheless, be allowed to compete with a view to their being placed on a supernumerary list to fill up vacancies as they occur, to avoid otherwise the total and grievous loss to them of their time and money, as their present ages would debar them from competing at any future examinations?
  MR. GRANT DUFF: I regret, sir, that we have no powers to do what my hon. and gallant Friend wishes. When the Government of India informs us that it wants such and such a number of medical officers, we announce that such and such a number will be selected by competitive examination, but we cannot
  156
  ask some score or hundred medical students to enter for a competitive examination, in which the prize would be the chance that the successful candidates might at some indefinite future period be employed as Indian medical officers. I do not think that would be a fair proceeding either to the medical schools or to the Government of India.
  COLONEL SYKESasked when the next competition would be held.
  MR. GRANT DUFF: I have not the remotest idea.

CAPE OF GOOD HOPE—MAIL TO NATAL.

  QUESTION.
  MR. LIDDELLasked the Postmaster General, Whether he is aware that the "Postal Guide" announces a Bimonthly Mail to "Natal," leaving England on the 10th and the 25th of each month, although letters despatched on the 10th and 25th arrive at "Natal" at the same time; and, whether, under these circumstances, he will inquire into the subject and cause the announcements in the "Postal Guide" to be couched in terms less calculated to mislead?
  MR. MONSELLbegged to inform his hon. Friend that letters to Natal were sent to the Cape twice a month, per steamer. From the Cape to Natal they were forwarded by colonial steamer only once a month. The statement in the Postal Guide was quite correct as to when letters were made up in London.

CHARGES ON THE CIVIL LIST.

  QUESTION.
  MR. DIXONasked the First Lord of the Treasury, whether, having regard to the recommendations of the Committee on the Civil List in 1838, that inquiries should be instituted and directions given, "from time to time," in order to enforce the observance in the departments of the Civil List of the same principles of economy which are acted upon in all the branches of ordinary Public Service,—Her Majesty's Government will, with the permission of Her Majesty, institute inquiries into the present appropriation of the Charges on the Civil List, with the view of ascertaining, if it be possible, without interference with the personal income, dignity, or convenience of the Sovereign, to effect more economical arrangements by the abolition, consolidation, or reduction of any

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  superfluous ceremonial offices, maintained at an excessive cost, or by the extinction of other Charges upon the Civil List that may be found unnecessary; and, whether Her Majesty's Government will communicate to Parliament the results of such inquiry before any further demands are made upon the Country in respect of provision for Members of the Royal Family by additional taxation?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, when my hon. Friend put a Question on a former day in relation to certain arrangements of the Royal Household, I answered him without making any preliminary objection to his question, because I thought my hon. Friend was governed entirely by the wish that for the benefit of Her Majesty and Her Majesty's establishment the Royal Houshold should in all respects be administered in an economical manner. As he intimated an opinion that any savings which could be made in the expenditure under the Civil List ought to go to the profit, not of Her Majesty, but of the public, I am obliged to point out to him that I think this is entirely a wrong view of the position of the Civil List and of Her Majesty with with regard to it. The Civil List is a contract of a very solemn nature between the Sovereign and Parliament, entered into at the commencement of the reign, and all advantage that may be derived from the economical administration of the Civil List is advantage strictly accruing to the Crown, and no one else; and, in my opinion, it is most important for Parliament to maintain that principle. First of all, because, if you do not, you give very little encouragement to the Sovereign, and to those immediately under the Sovereign, to set about and to perform steadily the difficult and invidious duty of enforcing economy; and, secondly, because I think, if Parliament were to advance a claim, and were to realize for the advantage of the country the moneys which would accrue in case the Civil List were ever found to be more than sufficient, Parliament would expose itself to a most dangerous counter claim on the part of the Sovereign in case the Civil List were found at any time to be less than sufficient. On that account it is impossible for me to say I regard economies under the Civil List as having any connection whatever with the interests of the Ex-
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  chequer and of the Consolidated Fund. The hon. Member has fallen into error with regard to the Committee of 1838. I am not aware of such Committee as he names; but there was a Committee on Pensions in 1838, and that Committee took into view, I believe, pensions on the Civil List, which constituted a distinct branch of the Civil List of limited amount, and did not form a general charge on the Civil List. There was a Committee, no doubt, upon the Civil List, preparatory to the passing of the Act by which it is now regulated, and that Committee sat in 1837, and not in 1838. Under the Civil List Act, it is the duty of the Government to render assistance, through the Department of the Treasury, to Her Majesty, for the purpose of administering the Civil List; but that assistance is carefully defined, the nature of the interference which is exercised by the Treasury is limited by law, and the Government never interferes in the administration of the Civil List except by the desire of Her Majesty and for the benefit of Her Majesty. Consequently, I think the question is founded on a misapprehension as to the nature of the arrangements by which the expenditure of the Crown is provided for under the Act. Briefly, then, there was no Committee on the Civil List to my knowledge in 1838; and I will also say I am not aware there is any important margin of saving to be effected by the reduction of offices under the Civil List. As I said before, I believe certain arrangements of an economical nature were made, which were to take effect on the cessation of certain vested interests; but I do not believe they embraced any considerable sum; and if there were any sum realized by economy it would go to the benefit of Her Majesty, and the Exchequer would have no interest in it. It would not be our duty—indeed, it would be contrary to our duty, if we were to withdraw from the fulfilment of an honourable understanding between the Crown and Parliament in regard to the provision for members of the Royal Family until we have made certain inquiries into the administration of the Civil List, which we have no time to make, and in regard to which I believe, if they were made, they would have no result at all tending materially to vary the nature and amount of the expenditure of the Crown.

THE FIJI ISLANDS.—QUESTION.
ADMIRAL ERSKINEasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If the statement published in a morning paper, that fighting with loss of life had taken place in the Fiji Islands between the mountain tribes and labourers imported from other islands by white settlers is correct; and, if it is true that the number of white settlers in the Fiji Islands amount to about 3,000 persons, of whom a large proportion are British subjects; and, if so, if it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to take any steps to prevent the disorders likely to follow the settlement among an uncivilized people of so large a body of Her Majesty's subjects, who are themselves under no restaint of Law?
VISCOUNT ENFIELD: No Reports, Sir, have been received at the Foreign Office in confirmation of the statements that have appeared in the newspapers respecting the alleged fighting and loss of life in the Fiji Islands between the mountain tribes and the labourers imported by white settlers. There are no means of ascertaining the exact number of British subjects in the Fiji Islands; but there are, no doubt, a very considerable number of British subjects settled there, and the number is daily increasing; and Her Majesty's Government have recently prepared an Order in Council with the intention of giving Her Majesty's Consul magisterial powers to enable him to deal with British subjects offending against the laws.

BRITISH ARTISANS IN RUSSIAN DOCKYARDS.—QUESTION.
MR. RAIKESasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Government are in possession of any information which they can give to the House in confirmation or refutation of the reports which have been lately in circulation to the effect that British skilled artisans recently dismissed from the Royal Dockyards in this Country are now employed in building ships in Russian Dockyards?
VISCOUNT ENFIELD, in reply, said, he had taken steps to obtain information from St. Petersburg with reference to the reports that skilled British artisans recently dismissed from the Royal dockyards, were employed in building ships
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in Russia, but an answer had not yet been received.

THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS AND MR. BARRY.—QUESTION.
MR. BERESFORD HOPEasked, the First Lord of the Treasury, If he has received a letter from Mr. Barry, R.A., referring to statements lately made by the First Commissioner of Works regarding Mr. Barry's official position, and praying for an inquiry; and further, to ask if the First Lord of the Treasury will lay the Correspondence upon the Table of the House, in continuation of the previous Correspondence respecting the architect of the Houses of Parliament?
MR. GLADSTONEsaid, in reply, that he had received a letter from Mr. Barry in reference to a debate in that House, and he had replied to it. The correspondence had been published in the newspapers, and nothing would be gained by laying it on the Table and printing it as an official correspondence—a character which it was not fitting to give to correspondence of that kind.

ARMY—CAMP OF EXERCISE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HAMBROasked, the Secretary of State for War, Whether it is true that after granting permission to certain squadrons of Yeomanry Regiments to attend the Camp of Exercise, he informed the commanding officers of these squadrons that if they attended the camp they would not be supplied with rations or marching money; and if (after the War Office Circular of the 13th June), he will state the reasons why he determined to deal differently with, these squadrons than with the regiments which are going to the camp?
  SIR HENRY STORKS: Sir, in reply to my hon. Friend I have to state that the corps he refers to declined at first to join the Camp of Exercise; they, consequently, assembled for permanent duty, and have drawn the pay and allowances they are entitled to for the year. On re-consideration the commanding officers expressed a wish to take to the manœuvres a squadron each, and the question arose, under the circumstances, what pay and allowances would be issuable to them. Pay could not be issued to them a second time; and it

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  was at first held that allowances should be placed in the same category with pay; but, for the purpose of holding out all possible inducements to them, it was subsequently decided to give them, in common with regiments which had not previously trained, free rations and travelling expenses.

SECRET SERVICE MONEY.

  QUESTIONS.
  MR. RYLANDSasked, the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, if it be true that the permanent Under Secretary for the time being of Foreign Affairs receives an addition to his salary out of Secret Service Money, such appropriation of that fund is in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government justifiable, and in accordance with the intentions of Parliament in granting money for Secret Services?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, when a Question was asked previously upon a Question akin to this, and, I think, embracing this, the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs declared to the House that which he conceived to be the established and general rule with regard to the administration of Secret Service Money. However, partly from the nature of the question, and also very much because the eminent person who is at the present moment Permanent Under Secretary of Foreign Affairs, the subject of this question, is desirous to withhold no information, I may state the facts exactly as they are. I do not think it would be correct to say that Mr. Hammond receives an addition to his salary out of the Secret Service Money; at the same time I will not cavil about words; he receives an allowance, but it cannot be called an addition to his salary, because it is not as an addition to his salary that it is given. Secret Service Money constitutes a completely distinct and special fund, and the administration of it is necessarily a duty, not only of very high responsibility, but also of considerable labour, because it is necessarily kept in the hands of a very high and confidential person, who cannot receive in the administration of it the kind and degree of assistance which he receives in the discharge of the ordinary duties of his office. For these reasons it has been for a long time held in the Foreign Office that a special allowance ought to
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  be made to the Permanent Under Secretary for this difficult, responsible, and laborious duty. The arrangement stands upon the basis of a Minute made by Mr. Canning, and dated about 1824. Previously to that time the amount was regulated by a percentage upon the Secret Service Money voted; by Mr. Canning's Minute it was fixed at £500 a-year, and at that it has continued ever since. In justice to the indefatigable public servant who now fills the office, I must say that shortly after the accession to Office of the present Government he voluntarily tendered to Lord Clarendon an expression of his readiness, if it were thought right, to reduce the payment to £300 a-year. Lord Clarendon consulted me upon the subject, and, having reference to the time the payment had been established, and to the nature of Mr. Hammond's services, and the really unmeasured labour he gave to the public benefit, I said I could not bring myself to advise that his offer should, be accepted, but that the amount should remain at what it was during the time he remained in office. It therefore remains unchanged, not in consequence of any claim made by him, but in spite of the offer made by him to the prejudice of his own interest; but when a change occurs in the tenure of the office the amount will be reduced from £500 to £300 a-year. As far as my opinion goes, considering the nature of the Secret Service Fund, it is in no way at variance with the intentions of Parliament to make a special allowance for the duties involved in the admistration of it, and such a payment is not an unjustifiable appropriation of Secret Service Money.
  SIR ROBERT PEEL: Are we to understand that the Permanent Under Secretary receives £500 a-year in addition to the sum voted for him in the Estimates for the "unmeasured labour" he undertakes as Under Secretary, or is it because he has the distribution of the Secret Service Fund? Hon. Members may be aware that it was alleged before the Select Committee on the Diplomatic Service that the distribution of the money was intrusted solely to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and to the Under Secretary of State, and therefore it would appear that, out of the Secret Service Fund, the present Under Secretary receives £500 a-year

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  for his labour as Permanent Under Secretary, in addition to the sum voted by Parliament.
  MR. GLADSTONE: He receives £500 a-year for his labours in connection with the administration of the Secret Service Fund, and not as an addition to the sum voted by Parliament for the performance of his general duties.

ARMY—ABOLITION OF PURCHASE.

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL STUART KNOXasked the Secretary of State for War, If, after the issue of the Royal Warrant, and up to the 1st of November next, Officers will be allowed, as heretofore, to sell their commissions; and, if so, whether their successors will be placed in the same pecuniary position as those they succeed; and if it is the intention of the Government at once to fill up the vacancies in the different Regiments, or, if not, whether they will without delay pay to Officers who have retired the money now due to them?
  MR. CARDWELL: Sir, officers will be allowed as heretofore to sell their commissions until the 31st day of October inclusive, and their successors will be placed in the same pecuniary position as those they succeed. No vacancies will be filled up except without purchase, and the money now due to officers who have retired will be paid as soon as the Vote for that purpose shall have been passed.

ARMY—MEDICAL OFFICERS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. D. DALRYMPLEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether the system of promotion by selection now determined upon is to apply to the medical as well as to the other officers of the Army?
  MR. CARDWELL: Sir, under the existing Warrant, promotion to the ranks of Inspector General and Deputy Inspector General is by selection. Promotion from Assistant Surgeon to Surgeon is by seniority, if the officer be competent. There is power to give special promotion for distinguished service.

UNLAWFUL ASSEMBLIES IN IRELAND.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SMYTHasked Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland, Whether the Act of the Irish Parliament, the 33rd Geo. 3, c. 29, intituled—
  "An Act to prevent the election or appointment of unlawful assemblies, under pretence of preparing or presenting public Petitions or other Addresses to His Majesty or the Parliament,"
  is to be regarded as obsolete, or is still operative as law in Ireland; whether any Act of a similar character is in force in England; and, whether it be the intention of Government to introduce a Bill for the repeal of the Act referred to?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)said, in reply, that there were statutes in force in England with more stringent provisions in relation to unlawful assemblies than were contained in any Irish statutes, but that there was no statute similar to the one referred to; that the Act of the Irish Parliament, 33 Geo. III., c. 29, had not been repealed and was still in force, and it was not the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill to repeal it.

THE "TORNADO."—QUESTION.
MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKput a question to Mr. Attorney General relative to the Cause of Campbell v. Fortescue in the matter of the British ship "Tornado."
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, in reference to the cause of Campbell v. Fortescue, a proceeding in Chancery to obtain the whole or the greater part of the sum awarded as compensation, the answer of the Government had not been put in, and the cause was not ripe for trial.

ARMY—QUARTERMASTERS OF MILITIA.

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL CORBETTasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether, with reference to paragraph 4 of the Reserve Force Circular, dated January 1st, 1871, where it is stated that "No Quartermasters of Militia will be compulsorily reduced during the financial year 1871–2," it is his intention to continue the services of those officers after that date?
  MR. CARDWELL: Under the special circumstances the compulsory reduction of Militia Quartermasters was suspended

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  for the current year; but I am not prepared to enter into any undertaking with respect to its further suspension.

ARMY—CLOTH CONTRACTS FOR THE ARMY.—QUESTION.
MR. AKROYDasked the Surveyor General of the Ordnance, Whether his attention has been called to a Memorial addressed to the War Office by the Huddersfield Chamber of Commerce in reply to a Letter from Mr. Howell, Director of Contracts, to the Chamber, dated the 25th of May, 1871, in which Memorial it is stated that
"No low or medium army cloths are produced in Yorkshire without an admixture of mungo or shoddy, according to the nature of the cloth;"
and, further, that "a system of favouritism unquestionably prevails" in the Inspection Department whereby "the best article is not always received by the Government;" and, whether it is not the fact that there is an Assistant Adjutant General for Clothing, aided by a Colonel on the Staff (selected by the Horse Guards) as Inspector of Clothing, whose duty it is to prevent such practices; and, further, what steps, if any, have been taken to remedy such a state of things?
SIR HENRY STORKS: Sir, no letter on this subject has been addressed by the Director of Contracts to the Huddersfield Chamber of Commerce, and no Memorial, so far as I can trace, has been received at the War Office from the Huddersfield Chamber in regard to it. The words referred to by the hon. Member occur in a document sent to the War Office, in reply to an inquiry of the Director of Contracts, by a Manchester firm as representing the opinion of their Huddersfield house. Those inquiries were instituted under the following circumstances:—A clause in the specification which governs the supply of cloth to the Army expressly forbids the use of mungo, shoddy, or any other waste materials; but as it has been held that the introduction of certain small quantities of such material cannot be checked, and that an unscrupulous clothmaker may consequently hinder a good maker from obtaining a contract by quoting a lower price, the question has arisen whether or not the clause should not be struck out and the cloth taken if it is equal in every way to the pattern. This point is under consideration and will be settled
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before the next contracts for cloth are put out, the object of the Department being to place contracts upon such a footing as will induce manufacturers of the first class to seek the orders of Government, and to satisfy them that in all respects their goods will receive an impartial but judicious inspection. There is an Assistant Adjutant General for Clothing at the Horse Guards, and an Inspector of Clothing, who is a colonel in the Army, is employed in the clothing factory at Pimlico. A change in the Inspection Department is in contemplation.

THE CHURCH IN BARBADOES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. CHARLEYasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, If it be correct, as stated in the despatch of Governor Rawson to Earl Granville, dated Barbadoes, 17th April 1870, and printed by order of the House, that, out of 152,000 inhabitants of Barbadoes, 135,000 are members of the Church of England; and, if so, on what ground, and by whose authority, Earl Granville insists, in his despatch to Governor Rawson, of the 11th June 1870, without consulting the Imperial Parliament, that the Church of England in Barbadoes must be disestablished?
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN: Sir, Governor Rawson's figures are taken from the Census of 1861, as are also those which state that, in another island, out of a population less than 27,000, about 25,000 were Roman Catholics. Earl Granville's Despatch merely suggested a course to the Colonial Government, and to do this there was no need to consult the Imperial Parliament. The policy which Her Majesty's Government support in the West Indies and everywhere else (in the colonies) is a policy of religious quality, and it appeared to them that, in the West Indies generally, that result would be best obtained by concurrent endowment. The matter, however, is one for the Colonial and not the Imperial Legislature.

NAVY—UNSEAWORTHY SHIPS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. KAVANAGHasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is the fact that Her Majesty's ship "Ocean," only

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  recommissioned eighteen months ago on the China Station, has been found un-seaworthy, and that the "Iron Duke" is now being fitted out to relieve her; whether Her Majesty's ship "Vestal," from the West India station, although only re commissioned three months ago, and Her Majesty's ship "Enterprize" from the Mediterranean, have not both been, ordered home on account of the amount of repairs they require; and, whether the experiment of recommissioning ships which have been more than three years on a foreign station, by fresh crews sent out from England, has been found satisfactory as regards the efficiency of the ships as well as on the matter of economy?
  MR. GOSCHENsaid, in reply, that the suggestion or inferential allegation that Her Majesty's ship Ocean, recommissioned only 18 months ago, on the China Station, had been found un-seaworthy, was one of those immense exaggerations in which, many persons seemed to delight, to the disparagement of our national resources. She was not unseaworthy, but required repairs, and would have to make a voyage of several thousand miles, from China to England, before those repairs could be undertaken. She had been four and a-half years away, and would have been away five years by the time she reached England again. She was an armour-plated wooden ship, sheathed at the bottom, and it was found that she required resheathing. If there had been a dock deep enough for her on the station it would not have been necessary to send her home. She would be replaced by the Iron Duke, which was a vessel of less draught, which could be docked without coming home. The Enterprize had been ordered home from the Mediterranean in the usual course of things. As regarded the Vestal, re-commissioned three months ago, it was found that her boilers were giving way. A mistake had been made, and it would have to be inquired into by a Court Martial. The general system of re-commissioning ships which had been more than three years on a foreign station by fresh crews sent out from England had been found efficient and economical, but there were some points in it which required to be considered.

DISESTABLISHMENT OF THE CHURCH.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SPENCER WALPOLE: Sir, in reference to the hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Knatchbull-Hugessen's) reply to the Question put by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Salford (Mr. Charley), I wish to ask my right hon. Friend at the head of the Government whether that reply, which conveyed to the House the impression that the policy of the Government was the policy of religious equality, not only in Barbadoes, but everywhere else, was the announcement of a new policy on the part of the Government with regard to the churches in England, Scotland, and Wales?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I can assure my right hon. Friend that we have no covert intention of making any disclosure to the House in the answer of my hon. Friend (Mr. Knatchbull-Hugessen), which, I believe, was given under the consciousness in his mind that he was Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, and that he was speaking for the colonies, and not for other portions of the Empire. I think, if the words "in the colonies" were inserted after the words "religious equality," his answer would probably be brought into the strictest conformity with established rules.

ROYAL PARKS AND GARDENS BILL.

  QUESTION.
  MR. J. LOWTHERinquired of the First Commissioner of Works, What course he intends to pursue with reference to the Royal Parks and Gardens Bill?
  MR. AYRTON: The course we intend to pursue is to move to discharge the Order for going into Committee and to withdraw the Bill.

ARMY—EXCHANGE OF COMMISSIONS.

  QUESTION.
  Mr. OTWAYIn reply to Mr. OTWAY,
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, that it was intended to make regulations for all proper and useful exchanges between officers of the Army, but that it was intended to prohibit exchanges being made for money.

ELECTIONS (PARLIAMENTARY AND MUNICIPAL) (re-committed) BILL— [BILL 103.]
(Mr. William Edward Forster, Mr. Secretary Bruce, The Marquess of Hartington.)
ELECTIONS (PARLIAMENTARY AND MUNICIPAL) (re-committed) BILL— [BILL 103.]

  COMMITTEE. [Progress 21st July.]
  Bill considered, in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Mode of taking the Poll.
  Clause 3 (Regulations as to Polling).
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, that on Friday it was proposed by the hon. Baronet the Member for East Gloucestershire (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) to omit the words from "and" in line 32 down to the word "voter" in line 35. The effect of that Amendment was to strike out the proviso that any ballot paper having anything written or marked thereon, except the stamp or mark made by the instrument provided by the Bill, or the cross or mark made by the voter to show for which candidate he voted, should be void and should not be counted.
  MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKsaid, that when the Committee last separated he wished to amend the Amendment by proposing to stop at the word "thereon," in line 33, in order to insert the words "by the voter," so as to prevent the possibility of a vote being vitiated by a mark being made on the paper by any person other than the voter himself.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, he had no objection to the proposal.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKthereupon moved the omission of all the words from the word "and" in line 32 down to "thereon" in line 33. The clause, he contended, would have the effect of disfranchising a large number of electors, unless such an Amendment as he then proposed were agreed to.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, the sub-section as it stood declared that if a man did that which up to this time it had been his absolute duty to do, and signed his name to the voting paper, his vote would be disallowed. This surely was not the way to reconcile the voters to the new system, which most of them disliked. The persons most likely to act contrary to this provision of the Bill were, first, the old, the nervous, and the partially ignorant; and, secondly, those who had always been proud of letting it be known which way they voted. They
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  would, in fact, be punished for doing what up to the time of the passing of this Bill they had been compelled to do. Not only that, but it appeared to him that it would be most unjust to deprive any man of his vote, simply because he inadvertently made a scratch or erasure on the ballot paper. In South Australia there were no such disqualifying and disfranchising enactments, but only such provisions as were necessary to maintain the secrecy of the Ballot, which was there free from the blemishes that that Bill contained. In the recent school board election thousands of votes had been vitiated owing to the directions which the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council gave with regard to that election. He asked the Committee to relieve the Bill from that mischievous and narrow-minded subsection.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that the difference to which the noble Lord the Member for North Leicestershire (Lord John Manners) had alluded, between two systems of voting, existed at present. In the opinion of the Government the Amendment would make the Ballot wholly useless, for in the Bill it was necessarily provided that the returning officer should count up the votes in the presence of agents of the candidates; therefore, if the agents knew how votes had been given everybody might know. The object of the Ballot, which was to prevent undue influence, would not be attained if it were possible for influence to be used to induce a voter to make a mark on a paper so that an agent might know how the elector voted. He could not assent to that Amendment.
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONthought the words which the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council proposed to retain were open to great objection, while all that had been said by him went to prove that this was a disfranchising Bill. In the North of England the mistakes which would nullify a vote might not be made, but in the rural districts a large number of electors might accidentally be disqualified, for if a voter did not mark his paper according to the rules laid down by the presiding officer he would lose his vote. He would suggest the retention of the word "written," but the omission of the word "mark," because a voter might mark his paper ignorantly,

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  and without any intention of indicating how he was voting.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he would point out that the returning officer might disfranchise voters by giving them blotted papers. The right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council had clearly confessed that that was a new Reform Bill, in the sense of limiting the franchise that was so much enlarged by the last Reform Act.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, the Committee must consider they were legislating on that subject, as on any other—namely, that they were legislating for people with average sense, with an average desire to do what was necessary to be done. Moreover, voters would, no doubt, be warned by persons who were interested in the result that they had a right to refuse a paper which had any mark upon it. The provision was introduced in order to protect the voter from undue influence by its being known how he had voted.
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, the sub-section appeared to contain pitfalls for the honest and well-intended voter from his not understanding the highly complicated provisions which his friends had introduced for his protection. If a man wrongly marked out the name of a candidate for whom he did not intend to vote, and afterwards scratched out the mark, would that mark vitiate his vote?
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that if a man was so foolish, either from nervousness or any other cause, as not to vote for the candidate he intended, he must, as now, lose his vote. Having once suffered, a man would be more careful in future.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that he gathered from the right hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Forster's) remark "average sense," that he intended to disfranchise all those who did not in his opinion come up to that standard. It was evident the right hon. Gentleman had now thrown off the mask which sat so uneasily on his face, when he repudiated any intention on the part of the Government to disfranchise any voter. He would, however, now disfranchise all those who were not up to what was to be called "average sense." He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that persons of high educational attainments were likely to make mistakes in voting, and there was an instance of an hon. Member of that House, second
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  to none in intelligence, having made a mistake in voting for a school board. He himself had often signed documents in a wrong place, and believed that to be nothing unusual. If the clause passed in its then form, the apathy of the public would soon be turned into activity, and thousands of Petitions would be presented to the House praying for an alteration in the law.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, the Bill, if passed into law, would really put the voter in a better position than he was in at present. If a voter made a mistake under the present law there was no remedying it; but he would be able to do so under the provision in Clause 5 by asking for another paper. He should decline to reply to the interpretation that had been put upon his observation of "average sense." Average common sense was different from average education.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, it was quite plain that there would be no remedy against a mistake under that Bill, as it was impossible for an elector to use a second ballot paper.
  MR. CANDLISHsaid, he thought that no advocate of the Ballot could accept the Amendment, which would entirely frustrate the object of the Bill. This sub-section, however, was too stringent and exclusive, and he would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council should consider it with a view to amending it on the Report, because at present a returning officer of strong political feeling would have it in his power to disfranchise many honest voters. Words might be inserted to save the vote, if there was nothing more than a blot or scratch on the paper; for he knew from his experience in the election of Poor Law Guardians, that there were many honest corrections of votes.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Candlish) had made a very valuable suggestion, and he congratulated the Committee on the hon. Gentleman having broken through the silence that had been imposed on him. In nine cases out of ten, unfortunate men might not be conscious they had made a mistake, so as to entitle them to ask for another paper. That was not merely an imaginary grievance, but one founded on practical experience.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he would point out that the sole object of that sub-

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  section was to prevent the object of the Bill being defeated by a voter showing for whom he had voted; it was not therefore necessary at that point, to deal with any other means by which the votes could be invalidated. At the same time the suggestion of his hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland (Mr. Candlish) was an important one, and he would endeavour to deal with it on the Report.
  MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, he would suggest, as a means of preventing the possibility of returning officers lying under the imputation of acting unfairly, that, instead of their being appointed as at present, they should be nominated by the Government, or, which would be better still, appointed, as was the case with revising barristers, by the Judges on circuit.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTONsaid, he had received a letter from a gentleman describing himself as a Liberal in politics, showing how the result of the system proposed in the Bill would be to disfranchise a vast number of voters. In proof of that, his correspondent mentioned the case of a recent election of candidates for admission to an orphan asylum, in the course of which mistakes in the marking of voting papers were made by men of high education, and the votes were invalidated thereby. This being so, hon. Members would easily imagine the difficulty that would arise in the case of voters belonging to the lower classes.
  MR. HERMONhoped Her Majesty's Government would accept the suggestion of the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Candlish). It was as important to guard against votes being invalidated by accident as by fraud.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, it would be possible for returning officers being strong political partisans to make marks upon the papers in order to ascertain how the votes had been given. A distinguished American politician recently told him that he could ascertain, with few exceptions, how the 25,000 electors composing his constituency voted at the last election, although the votes were taken by ballot. The returning officer was able to mark with a piece of concealed chalk each paper as he delivered it to the voter, and by that means the vote was subsequently identified. The sub-section now under discussion would give a similar power to returning officers
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  appointed under the Bill if it became law.
  MR. GOLDNEYsaid, he would suggest that the difficulty would be met by the insertion of words in the sub-section, rendering void any ballot paper which had been so marked that it could be afterwards identified.
  MR. J. G. TALBOTsaid, he agreed with those hon. Members who believed the effect of that particular branch of the Bill would be to disfranchise many voters. He had received from Nottingham a suggestion that the ballot-boxes should be painted with the distinctive colours of the candidates, whose portraits they should also bear. He mentioned this as an instance of the difficulty felt to be likely to occur, particularly in the less highly educated districts of the country, in so arranging the ballot that all electors should be able to vote with ease. He thought the suggestion of the hon. and learned. Member who had just sat down (Mr. Goldney) would not meet the case, for the difficulty was to show the intention of the person making the mark.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he was willing to accept the proposition of the hon. and learned Member for Chippenham (Mr. Goldney), if the words inserted were such as to render void any papers bearing marks which would, in the opinion of the returning officer, enable the voter to be afterwards identified. He thought that the insertion of the words—"by means of which such vote may be afterwards identified" would meet the case.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, it would be difficult to ascertain by what particular blot on a ballot paper a voter was to be identified or not.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he apprehended no danger from a dishonest presiding officer making marks on ballot papers, because they were likely to be discovered by the returning officer, through whose hands the papers would have to pass.
  MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKasked how the voter was to be identified, if the Amendment accepted by the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council were adopted by the Committee? There ought to be a distinct description as to how the identification was to take place.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that Clause 13 made the provision. The re-

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  turning officer would be the judge whether the paper identified the voter or not.
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, he thought the Amendment met the difficulty.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he could see no reason for the presence of the agents.
  MR. GOLDNEYsaid, he would accept the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council.
  MR. CANDLISHsaid, he also thought the Amendment proposed by the right hon. Gentleman would meet the case.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERthen proposed to insert the words—
  "By means of which the voter may, in the judgment of the returning officer, be identified."
  After omitting the words proposed to be struck out by the preceding Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. LEATHAMmoved, in page 5, line 41, after "shall," to insert—
  "Count and record the number of cards contained in such ballot-box, and having mixed together the whole of the cards contained in the ballot-boxes, shall afterwards."
  The hon. Member said, his object was to prevent any agent in any particular district ascertaining whether the electors had voted, on the whole, as he expected.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he would accept the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield.
  MR. GOLDNEYsaid, he was sorry to hear that declaration of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council, for he heartily disapproved of it. It would cause great delay in the declaration of the poll, and would also lead to the loss or abstraction of voting papers, and the manufacture of fraudulent ones.
  MR. R. TORRENSsaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just spoken (Mr. Goldney) seemed to him wholly to misunderstand the object of the Amendment, which was only intended, and was no more than sufficient to meet the danger pointed out by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Leatham). As to the objection that had been raised on the score of the time that would be involved, he might be allowed to say that in South Australia it was within his own experience that the result of an election conducted on the principle of this Amendment was made
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  known the following morning. The number of votes given on that occasion was about 5,000, but the returning officer sat up some portion of the night. In the case of very large constituencies, it would not be necessary that all the papers should be collected into one heap; but the object of the Amendment would be answered by having two or three sub-divisions.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, that it was ridiculous to suppose that the ballot papers of a constituency, such as Birmingham, Marylebone, or a division of Yorkshire, could, be mixed up together in the manner proposed by that Amendment. Let hon. Members conceive the spectacle of the high sheriff, with his shirt sleeves tucked up to his shoulders, stooping, and scraping, and turning over the papers in order to make a pell-mell of the votes of 10,000 or 20,000 electors. He had never entertained a very favourable opinion of that Bill; but for the sake of the dignity of that House and its reputation for common sense, he hoped they would reject an Amendment that would simply make the Bill absolutely burlesque. He must further object to the Amendment, because he thought it would give great scope for the exhibition of wholesale fraud, during the period of time necessary to perform the operation of mixing, and which he could find no better title to designate it by than that of the "churning process."
  MR. LEATHAMsaid, that it would not be necessary, neither was it contemplated that all the papers should be elaborately shuffled together, but only sufficiently to prevent particular votes being identified. It seemed to him very desirable that the number of voting papers in the ballot-boxes should be also counted.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 5, line 41, after the word "shall," to insert the words "count and record the number of ballot papers contained in such ballot-box, and, having mixed together the whole of the ballot papers contained in the ballot-boxes, shall afterwards."—(Mr. Leatham.)
  MR. GOURLEYsaid, the principle objection to the proposed Amendment was, the process of counting would not fail to take up much time.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he would admit that if the Amendment became law, some little extra trouble would be required before the result of the election

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  could be ascertained; but it did not appear to him that the counting the voting papers would cause any serious delay.
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, he should oppose the Amendment, for if it occupied the whole night to ascertain the result of the election which the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. R. Torrens) had quoted, where the constituency was only 3,500 strong, how much longer would, it take in the case of those English constituencies that were twice or three times as numerous? Moreover, as the returning officer could not sit up night after night, it would be necessary in such cases to allow of an interval, and during that interval the voting papers might be tampered with.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that any practical man with ordinary common sense would be able to overcome such objections as had just been suggested. Could there be any difficulty, if it should be necessary, in putting the voting papers under lock and key, or in a sealed safe?
  MR. WHEELHOUSEsaid, he wished to be assured that the ballot papers would be kept in safe custody. He had considerable experience in connection with Parliamentary and municipal elections, and he knew that it was not easy to deal with 42,000 votes.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that, if necessary, assistance must be obtained to cast up the number of votes; but that might be dealt with when a sub-section of Clause 9 was brought under discussion.
  MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKsaid, he thought that the Government, by accepting that Amendment, had made the Bill absolutely ridiculous, and he should certainly record his vote against it.
  MR. SCOURFIELDsaid, that if there were to be additional services there must be additional expense.
  COLONEL CORBETTsaid, he could not see how the Government could overcome the objection that had been raised—namely, that if there were 40,000 or 60,000 votes to cast up much time would be consumed.
  MR. DIXONsaid, that at Birmingham, though the number of electors was great, and though the cumulative vote existed, most perfect confidence prevailed as to the declaration.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he trusted that the necessary links which were required would be supplied by the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council.
  MR. WHEELHOUSEsaid, he could state from his own experience that great pressure was requisite to secure the return of the votes by the following morning. If that occurred with respect to school board elections, how much stronger would the feeling be with regard to Parliamentary elections?
  MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, that reference had been made to school board elections, and to Australian and French elections, but he must submit that those cases were not in point, because the anxiety to sit in that House was much greater than to be a member of any other assembly in the world.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 81; Noes 28: Majority 53.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid doubts might occur as to the number of votes given for each candidate, and he thought it was essential that the ascertainment of the number of votes given for each candidate should be made in the presence of the agents of the candidates. He therefore proposed that after the word "afterwards" there should be inserted, "in the presence of such agents, if any."
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he did not object to the Amendment, and would consent to the introduction of words to that effect.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. GOLDNEYmoved, at end of subsection 20, the insertion of the words "and make out a list of the same," the object of which was that a list of the votes should be made out in presence of the agents of the candidates, that the numbers polled for each candidate might be known.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that it was not necessary to insert those words, as Clause 22 provided that the returning officer was to give the total number of the votes for each candidate.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. J. LOWTHERmoved in page 5, sub-section 20, line 42, to insert "keeping a separate record of the votes given by those voters who have voted for one candidate only." The hon. Member said he had moved that Amendment with the view of moving afterwards a clause for the representation of minorities. He

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  was willing to postpone the Amendment until they came to a clause where it might be more conveniently introduced, if Her Majesty's Government wished that.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, that the present Amendment was introductory to a clause regarding a minority vote; but the Committee had no instruction from the House on the subject of the representation of minorities.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he had not intended to introduce any new subject. His object was to make the returning officer adopt a different method of calculation from that prescribed in the Bill.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he understood that if the present Amendment was carried, and if it was followed up, as was intended, by a new clause on the subject of the representation of minorities; that new clause would be proceeding beyond the power of the Committee. He did not think the alteration, however, would be an improvement.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, there were other clauses which touched to a certain extent on that subject; one to be moved by the hon. Member for Plymouth (Mr. Morrison), and another by the hon. Baronet the senior Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke), and he thought his Amendment by no means interfered with the apportionment of the representation, or with the form of existing constituencies. It merely touched the adding up of the votes.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, he thought he had correctly understood the hon. Gentleman the Member for York (Mr. J. Lowther) in the first instance, and if so his object could not be effected by that Bill. It was his (the Chairman's) intention to tell the hon. Member for Plymouth (Mr. Morrison) when the time came for proposing his clause, that he could not do so.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that in that case he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. CORRANCEmoved in page 6, sub-section 22, line 13, after "Chancery," to insert—
  "He shall also, at some period not less than six calendar months after any such Election, institute a scrutiny of the votes recorded, and it shall also be provided that a poll book, containing the said information, shall be published at or after the said date, upon the motion or demand of the candidate or other co-signatories to the nomination papers."
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, that so far as the part of the Amendment relating to a scrutiny was concerned, the Committee had already pronounced upon that point; and so far as related to the publication of the poll-books, the 15th was the clause under which that part of the hon. Member's (Mr. Corrance's) Amendment would arise. It was not applicable to that clause.
  MR. CORRANCEwas proceeding again to address the Committee, when—
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, that the Committee had decided against scrutiny, and the Amendment could not be moved in Committee, though the hon. Member might move it in the House on the Report.
  MR. CORRANCEsaid, he would postpone the part of his Motion relating to the poll-books until Clause 15 came up for consideration.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKmoved, in page 6, after line 16, the insertion of the following words—
  "Provided always, That any elector may tender his vote openly to the presiding officer, and that such vote shall be recorded in favour of the candidate to whom it is given, anything to the contrary in this Act notwithstanding."
  The hon. and learned Member said, he could not allow that clause to pass without giving hon. Members an opportunity of recording their votes in favour of a system of voting which in times past had been attended with excellent results to this country.
  Question put, "That those words be there added."
  The Committee divided: — Ayes 23; Noes 73: Majority 50.
  On Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill,"
  MR. CHARLEY, in rising to move the rejection of the clause, said, that he objected to the details, but still more to the principle of the clause—the principle of secret voting at Parliamentary and municipal elections. The difficulties which had arisen in the course of the discussion on the clause showed clearly how frail a plant this secret voting must be, how it suffered from the voyage across the ocean which divided us from our colonies, and how little likely it was to take root in our free institutions. The

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  clause said that the elector should "forthwith proceed into a compartment." Why should he "forthwith proceed into a compartment?" The voter at a club did not shut himself up in a cupboard. When there, according to the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council, he was to keep running his finger up and down the alphabetical list of candidates till he arrived at the names for which he intended to vote. That would be like seeking for a needle in a bottle of hay. And then he was to put his cross in a square opposite to the names of his favourite candidates; if he did not do that, he would be practically disfranchised. Then he must fold up the paper in a particular manner, subject to a fine for showing his cross to the presiding officer, and drop it into the ballot-box. His (Mr. Charley's) objections, however, were to the principle rather than the details of the clause. First, the honest and independent voter did not need its protection; secondly, the honest and dependent voter would not be protected by it; thirdly, it would have a demoralizing tendency by protecting bad men, including liars; and lastly, it would have the effect of promoting the growing vice of modern civilization—selfishness. Besides, there were other clauses well deserving the consideration of the Committee; and the utmost that could be hoped at that period of the Session was to pass those clauses into law. He would like to see working-men sitting on those benches. They were not Communists or Iconoclasts—
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted and 40 Members being found present,
  MR. CHARLEY, in continuation, said he was glad to see the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Forster) in his place, as he was anxious to convert the right hon. Gentleman to his views, or to have an explanation on the points he had raised in opposition to the clause. To one American institution, "the caucus," there had been added another American institution, the "skedaddle," and amongst those who "skedaddled" was the right hon. Gentleman. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would now take notice of his objections. He (Mr. Charley) thought that the proper motto for the clause would be splendide mendax—"lying
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  made easy." It would encourage unprincipled voters to fawn upon candidates and then vote against them. It would also encourage selfishness, by teaching the elector that he might use the suffrage for the advancement of personal or class interests, wholly irrespective of the public good. He believed that the Ballot would intensify rather than lessen the evils of trades unionism, and also enable the advocates of the Permissive Liquor Bill to carry out their threats against the opponents of that measure. The Ballot would remove from the mind of the voter that sense of accountability which exercised so healthy an influence upon him. The power of the few over the many was on the wane; the real danger to be apprehended in the future was the operation of selfish motives upon the mind of the voter himself, and the effect of the Ballot, as pointed out by Mr. John Stuart Mill, would be to degrade the electors into a selfish oligarchy. He should therefore move the rejection of the clause.
  MR. GREENEsaid, he desired to have an explanation of that part of the clause under which the voter who could not read and write was expected to go into one of the compartments, and there make his cross against the name of the candidate he intended to support. How, he asked, were they to prevent mistakes being made by such ignorant voters, or to guard against voting papers being tampered with? The object of that Bill was secrecy; but they were obliged to trust somebody, and all the discussion which that question had undergone only showed more clearly than ever how utterly impossible it seemed to be to devise any method of secret voting which would work as fairly and as satisfactorily as the existing system. The Ballot would not suppress bribery, because under it they could have payment by results; neither would it put an end to intimidation, because it would still be known how any man in a workshop or on an estate voted, and he might be punished for giving an adverse vote; while, as regarded personation, it would be absolutely facilitated and increased by that Bill. There was more independence and intelligence growing up among the constituencies of this country; and men had found it to be even to their interests to say—and say honestly—to their tenants or their servants, that they wished them

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  to vote according to their own conscientious opinions; because any attempt to coerce a few voters was pretty sure to be made known, and would have the effect of inducing ten times as many of their fellow-electors to vote the other way, in order to show their detestation of such coercion. The prominent supporters of that Bill were men who, two years ago, entertained very much the same sentiments as he was now expressing. For that reason he wished to know how the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had changed his opinion upon this question, because none of the hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to have an opinion apart from him. That question had never been seriously debated until that year, and, although it would make no difference to him whether the Ballot was passed that Session or the next, he maintained that it ought not to be forced through in such a hurry, nor should all other legislation be postponed or sacrificed in order to carry it.
  MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, that although he had a feeling in favour of the old-fashioned principle of open voting, he could not shut his eyes to the fact that a certain amount of intimidation existed in this country which they must all deplore. Within the last few days he had received a letter from a Conservative elector of the constituency he had the honour to represent, who stated that he had lost his situation because he had given a vote which was displeasing to his employer—a Liberal. Now, the humble class of electors were often inclined to believe that certain things happened to them on account of their votes, which were really due to other causes; and he was disposed to think that the writer of the letter to which he had referred had lost his employment for a reason entirely different from his vote. Still, there was no doubt that the humbler classes of voters—forming the majority of the constituencies of this country—had an idea, though frequently a mistaken one, that through having voted in a particular way, they had fallen into trouble which would not otherwise have come upon them. Therefore, he could not but feel that there was a certain amount of argument in favour of the Ballot. As regarded the 3rd clause of that Bill, he must, however, express his deep regret that the Committee had rejected the Amendment of his right hon.
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  Friend the Member for Shoreham (Mr. S. Cave), which would have met all the legitimate arguments in support of the Ballot, while at the same time it would have enabled them to follow the vote. Hon. Gentlemen opposite might fancy that the present Bill would increase their strength in the representation of counties; but he very much doubted whether that would be the case, for he believed that the tenant-farmers had a natural feeling to support those with whom they were connected. He, therefore, did not fear the result as regards the counties; but even if the Conservatives should lose a certain number of county seats, he believed that the Members of the Liberal party who might be returned for counties would never be extreme men, and, therefore, not being apprehensive, so far as England was concerned, as to the results of the Ballot, he should not have liked under other circumstances to vote against the present clause, because he could not say that under all circumstances they should give an uncompromising opposition to the Ballot. With these views it had been his intention a week ago to have supported the Government in the approaching division. However, the whole position of the question had been altered by what occurred last Thursday night or Friday morning, when the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill declared that the Government were determined to push the measure forward during the present Session, and leave to "another place" the responsibility of accepting or rejecting it. Coupling that declaration with what happened at an earlier period of the same evening, it seemed to him that there was a disposition on the part of the Government to offer defiance to "another place." He (Mr. R. N. Fowler) was anxious for a settlement of the question. If that Bill were sent up at the end of the Session with the menacing language held by Her Majesty's Government, he conceived that in that "other place" they had no course to pursue, consistent with their dignity and honour, but to reject the Bill. The question then arose what individual Members of that House were to do? It seemed to him that those who held Conservative opinions had a very important duty to discharge. They had been told by the Treasury bench that that Bill was pushed forward in defiance

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  of "another place." That being the case, and taking the language of the right hon. Gentleman in that sense, it seemed to him (Mr. R. N. Fowler) that those on his side of the House, whether they liked the Ballot or not, had only one clear duty, and that was, by every means in their power, to oppose the Bill. They did not wish to see the Constitution abolished by underhand measures. They desired that when the question was presented for adoption it should receive calm and dispassionate consideration. For these reasons, though not personally opposed to the Ballot, he felt bound to vote with his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Salford (Mr. Charley).
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: I trust that the hon. and learned Member who has moved the rejection of the 3rd clause (Mr. Charley) will not complain if I refrain from repeating the arguments which have been urged over and over again on this subject. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down (Mr. R. N. Fowler) has most candidly declared the grounds on which his vote will be guided in reference to this clause, and I am glad to find that the hon. Gentleman is becoming convinced that the Ballot must soon be the rule of our conduct in electoral matters. The hon. Gentleman, however, stated that he found an excuse for not voting for the present clause in some remarks of mine made on a previous evening; but it is clear that the hon. Gentleman has misunderstood those remarks. He said that he understood I was pushing forward this Bill in defiance of the other branch of the Legislature; and I am surprised that he or any other hon. Member should have such a notion. What occurred was this—The right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich (Sir John Pakington) asked what was the use of the Government going on with this Bill, when they could not hope to pass it this Session; and to that my reply was, that we were passing the Bill through the House because the majority of our constituencies desired it; and therefore we thought that the responsibility of its rejection, if rejected it was to be, should rest with the other House. There was nothing unconstitutional and nothing like defiance in that statement. I then went on to state what I cannot think the hon. Gentleman (Mr. R. N. Fowler) could have heard, that, judging from their past history, I believed that
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  the House of Lords would, at some sacrifice to their own convenience, spend the time necessary in considering this measure, desired by the majority of the constituencies, and relating to the mode of electing the Members of this House by Ballot. How the hon. Gentleman could suppose that in stating my belief that the House of Lords would give time to the consideration of such a measure as this, and in basing that expectation on their past history, I was offering a defiance to the other branch of the Legislature, it puzzles me to imagine.
  COLONEL BERESFORDsaid, he must deny altogether that the majority of the country required vote by Ballot, and on a previous occasion he had challenged the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council to prove the statement, but he had never attempted to give the House any proof of it. In that day's paper a case was reported which showed what the leanings of the people were. At Newcastle-on-Tyne a conference of employers and workmen was held to settle a strike. The delegates to the conference were in favour of vote by ballot, and promised to induce the general body of the men to agree to the proposal. But at the mass meeting the engineers were all of opinion that the mode of voting should be decided by the mayor, on the masters withdrawing their proposal that the vote should be by ballot. There was a case in point, the conclusion from which was irresistible.
  SIR HENRY HOAREsaid, that to show how subtle was the influence they sought to destroy, he might mention that in 1864, when canvassing his own county (Somerset), he asked a man who paid more than £400 a-year for his farm to give him his support. The reply was, that he would do so but for his landlord; whereupon he (Sir Henry Hoare) said he was sure the gentleman was too honourable a man to be guided in their ordinary relations by such a matter. To this the man assented; but added that having voted with his landlord for more than 20 years, he could not look him in the face if he did not, on that occasion also, vote for the old squire. That was the state of things which obtained throughout England, and it was the state of things which they on that side wanted to get rid of. They were accused of not speaking. But when 350 Gentlemen had made up their minds on a question

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  fully discussed, why should they, to use an Americanism, help hon. Members opposite to improve it off the face of the earth?
  MR. CORRANCEsaid, they were now advancing towards that stage of the clause which stamped a final character upon it, and although unassisted by hon. Gentlemen opposite, much laborious research had been bestowed upon it by hon. Members upon that side of the House. There was one observation, however, he must make—that considering the nature of the clause it must be a matter of regret that it should not have been in the power of the right hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill to accept more of those Amendments in accordance with the spirit he had otherwise evoked. He had said that there were parts of that Bill they might accept, and even of that clause, subject to sufficient guarantees for the just exercise of the franchise. But those were entirely wanting, and they forced upon them the duty of its entire rejection. It stood before them a complete system of secret government by an irresponsible majority. He had said it should be founded on compromise; and surely there never was a question upon which that spirit might be more fairly exercised than one which dealt with the delicate and difficult problem of government by majorities. He knew that in saying that he might give a shock to some feelings which had become so inherent by custom as to obtain in the minds of many he addressed the force of absolute conviction. Those persons thought the power and will of a majority absolute. He did not do so, and he did not do so for this reason—that, as he pointed out, was the case even there, as the fruit of long-standing institutions, it was scarcely possible, under any conceivable circumstances, to ratify the claims of that majority to absolute dominion. Clearly, in that House, it was not so, for no one upon any intelligible principles could justify the apportionment of their representative franchise between town and country, therefore their course must be one of compromise. But what was he to say to a Bill thus put forward and thus conducted—proposed and possibly passed under the silence of the Liberal party? They were told that the Liberal party had come to a decision upon it. Where and
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  how did that take place? Not through public discussion, and not by opinions openly recorded. Where was that concord of 150 hon. Gentlemen effected? [An hon. MEMBER: 350.] Well, 350; that increased the marvel. That 350 hon. Gentleman could agree that a clause they had not heard discussed was perfect at first, and he presumed perfect as amended. Really, it was a little suspicious upon the face of it, if not incredible, and he did not know whether he could congratulate the House upon the results of such complete unison, for it deprived them of their able criticism. But if this was unsatisfactory, so did the argument for it seem weak and inconclusive as a cure for bribery. And there was no agreement in the utterances which reached them few as they had been. The right hon. Gentleman had elsewhere talked of removing the motive for bribery, and he (Mr. Corrance) thought that that had shown some simplicity. The motive would always exist so long as it should be deemed an advantage to obtain a seat in that Assembly, and the means were under no circumstance difficult nor even doubtful of application. Some had said that it would be done by making the election dependent upon the return of the candidate, and several such ingenious but rather limited suggestions. These were the devices of small people, their grander scoundrel laughed at such contrivance; he, at least, had more faith in human nature; he would cast his bread upon the waters with perfect confidence in his calculations. Let him give an illustration. 100 votes would turn an election; he knew that out of that 100 there were probably 10 such double-dyed traitors that they would take his gold and betray him. But there were 90 weaker vessels, men who had received their comforting doctrines with assurance, that the vote was not a trust but a thing held in personal benefit, and to personal benefit they would apply it conscientiously, but they would go no further in that direction. Armed with that knowledge, he would bribe 110, and await the result in confidence. Now, towards that, their system actually held out inducements, for it could be practised with perfect impunity. But it would add to influence. There they were under some disadvantage, and for this reason—the reticence of the opposite benches was remarkable, and never more so than

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  upon this subject. What was influence? Where did it exist? Who had defined it? Who had answered his challenge the other night concerning it? He would take the case as put by their ablest and most eloquent advocate. He told them that in fact that influence was a thing absolutely indefinable; that it depended sometimes on character, sometimes on reason, sometimes on power; but that, although in essence it was present, it was corporeally absent. It even defied the lawyer. Now, he called the attention of the Committee to an axiom, thus expressed in Latin, familiar at least to lawyers? — De rebus non apparentibus et non existentibus, eadem est ratio. He thought, under those circumstances, he was justified in passing that by and coming to another subject. Now, much had been said about riot and disturbance at elections, and an election scene was certainly not a re-assuring sight for an elderly gentleman of retiring habits. He had no doubt it had deterred many such debutants from making a brilliant public appearance. It had made men forget every word of the speech they had written, and reduced them to really lamentable extremities. He was not sure whether he did not himself upon one occasion; but then he learnt something which had since saved him a deal of trouble. He never wrote another. Well, this feature of tranquillity at elections had been made the most of. He remembered last year a picture which went round, representing in bold contrast an English election scene and an Australian. In Australia a gentleman was depicted walking deliberately out of a first-class railway ticket office with a cane and a poodle behind him; and the Englishman was engaged in desperate battle just outside the polling-booth. Well, that was very pretty, but not quite convincing; for they all knew how easy it was to paint a flattering or unflattering likeness. Every day they saw instances of that in those likenesses of distinguished statesmen which appeared in the shop windows—which certainly scarcely did them justice. Lastly, then, came the question of freedom of voting—and he really only knew one class of any importance to whom that could by any possibility be applicable—the tradesman who feared loss of custom; even for him there was something to be said, and he thought that it would not be so
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  difficult to find a remedy short of the extreme measure before them. He would certainly join the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council in any proposal he might make in that direction, but for that, he believed the Ballot was a treacherous remedy. And now, having stated his conclusions as against that Bill as a remedial measure, let him detain the Committee one instant longer to explain to them what—more especially as regarded a great interest he represented—would be the effects of it. He was not so apt as some to recognize those fine drawn party distinctions which subtler minds could distinguish. For his own part they seemed to verge upon the imaginative under the peculiar characteristics of that Assembly. What were those characteristics? Well, it seemed to him that upon great questions of national polity there might be individual opinion, but no party. What they found in that House were local and class interests, and there was more flutter over a Beer Bill than the highest question of Imperial policy. They must, then, take a broader line of demarcation, and he found it was the county and urban representation, distinct in franchise, distinct in representation. These were two great political bodies divided in interest. ["No, no!"] Well, but they were so. He spoke of facts, not sentiments. And by their legislation they made them feel it. Look at the cattle plague, or local taxation, and the way they had been treated. Well, he should assume that, and under their Bill in what position would they find themselves? Whenever interests clashed, what would be the consequence? They would find themselves in the hands of an irresponsible democracy of the large cities. That was the government of the Commune, such as it was in Italy. He did not speak of France, for there it never existed, except in theory. It was created in 1832, and in 1867 its franchises were enlarged, and representation extended. He never loved it; for he would follow Mr. Stuart Mill or Mr. Hare to a wider basis of common representation, rather than be so governed; and beyond a certain point he repudiated its authority and moral right to govern, for it rested upon no assured foundation. And yet under their Bill they were handed over to its authority—to it as a secret, silent tribunal—an irresponsible confederacy

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  He said the position had not been well considered. It was simply frightful. Once more, what did they learn of the position of that power they were creating? In 1868 they had one election; from it they learnt little, and yet they tried another experiment. What were the politics of an urban democracy? One of their own Cabinet had told them. In 1867 the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that they knew nothing concerning them, and the words he used were so remarkable, so unforgetable, that he would quote them. He said—
  "You are handing over to new and untried persons the institutions of this country, and everything which is dear to us as Englishmen, and it is well that we should know something about them. The fact is, that the great mass of those you are going to enfranchise are people who have no politics at all. Their politics are yet to be learnt. …. But they will not be always without politics, and what will they be? …. With every disposition to speak favourably of them, their politics must take one form — Socialism. What other aspect can politics bear in their eyes? What can be their view of a state of society in which all the good things are given to others, and all the evil things are given to them? They know nothing of the laws that regulate the distribution of wealth. They attribute to society the inequalities of society. …. What you now do is absolutely irreversible, and your repentance—bitter as I know it will be—will come too late."—[3 Hansard, clxxxvii. 788–9–90.]
  That was their present Chancellor of the Exchequer. By that Bill they practically rendered that power—secret, and therefore irresponsible—one over which no opinion of their fellow-men, no duties to society publicly declared were to predominate. And what had they told them? That because to them the franchise had been more universally extended, that it ceased to be a trust held for others. In what position did they find those who were unenfranchised, and unrepresented, and thus governed. He said the principle was intolerable, and ought not to be forced upon them. But if his assumptions were true, there was to themselves, at least, equal danger. Alienating them, could they rely upon the support of that feeble, restless element? Let them go to Bradford, and Greenwich, and Halifax, and seek their answer. They could not even command a vote of confidence. And why could they not at Bradford? Because they had carried one of the greatest Bills which, with all its demerits, was ever passed through Parliament. Would they
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  commit the destinies of statesmen, the destiny of this country, to such fickle elements under the cover of the irresponsible Ballot? Their warnings came from every quarter. What said Joseph Mazzini, who surely should be an unimpeachable Liberal authority of governments upon such a basis. He said of the Commune—
  "It means in political life the annihilation of the nation of its every mission. The sacred love for the millions extinguished by the breath of jealous strife. In economical life unlimited competition between thousands of hostile and grasping communes, different laws regulating production, consumption, and traffic. In moral life progress impeded by an aim common to the whole nation. A life tending by its very nature to identify itself more closely with the material interests of the individuals than any others; and representatives, each of whom would merely represent the local interests of his own commune."
  Well, was it towards that they were tending, and for what reason? They had been accused of doing so for party purposes, as a bid to outdo some former bid, and of that the Constitution was the scapegoat. Those on their own bench had told them so. Once more their own Chancellor of the Exchequer. He said, in 1867—"Let us give up this miserable auction, the competition between two parties, which can bid the lowest, at which the country is put up for sale, and knocked down to the person who can produce the readiest and swiftest measure for its destruction." Was it so in the present instance? There was much to justify the accusation—the accusation that the principles they had laid down for others they had adopted themselves. That it was not as a great trust they held power for the advantage of the nation, but to use or abuse for the predominance of their party. For those reasons he should vote against the clause.
  MR. MUNTZsaid, that 40 years ago when the Ballot was introduced in Belgium, all the hard things that were now said against that Bill were then said against the Ballot in the Belgium Chambers; but the experience of 40 years had proved that it had put an end to a great extent to the influence of the priests, that it had given to that happy little country peace, order, and freedom, and that it had caused that State to be one of the best governed and most independent in Europe. When France was referred to as an

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  example to the contrary, he replied that elections there were at the mercy of the Prefects of the Emperor; and he fully admitted that the Ballot required every precaution, and that until all such precautions had been adopted, the Bill ought not to leave the House. Let them look at the question fairly. He did not believe that the Ballot would make the slightest difference in the counties, for he must deny that the effect of the Ballot would be to induce tenants to vote against their landlords, and would remark that anybody knowing the good feeling that subsisted between those two classes of persons in England would not believe that the passing of the present measure would cause any important difference in the result of the county elections as exhibited at present. Even in the last election, when feeling ran so high that a respectable party clergyman compared the Leader of the Opposition to Hezekiah, and the present Prime Minister to Sennacherib—even at that time, it often appeared that where perfect freedom of voting was allowed the votes were given for the Conservatives. But they wanted to protect the borough voter from insult and injury, and Irish voters from the influence of priests such as that one at Drogheda, who called out—"Here come the enemies of God and of our religion; I hope that no gentleman will be so kind as to throw them over the bridge." They had heard a variety of stories on the subject, and amongst them an extraordinary story of a returning officer who, by marking each ticket, could tell how every one of 25,000 electors voted. But a ballot of that sort was not wanted in England—what was wanted in this country was a ballot which would enable every man to vote as he liked, without anyone else knowing how he had recorded his vote. At present there was a strong feeling in some popular constituencies that the electors by intimidation, by bribery, or by some other means, were deceived in their choice of a representative, and the Ballot, as experience had proved, would do away with bribery and intimidation, and would leave to the voter a fair chance of giving the opinion which he believed to be just and right.
  MR. NEVILLE GRENVILLEsaid, he thought that the Bill, so far as it had gone, had been well threshed out on the Opposition side; but he regretted that
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  the Committee had not heard more such speeches as that which had been delivered by the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz), whose counsel would have improved the clauses, and preserved the Bill from being left in its present unworkable condition. He would remind the House that with the subsections, some of which were as long and important as clauses, and which would require quite as much consideration, there were 152 clauses to the Bill. Whether he wished it or not, he felt certain that the 3rd clause would pass, and he wished to suggest to the Government two courses; having passed it, they might either withdraw the Bill at once and introduce it again at an early date next Session, or they might withdraw the remaining clauses, and send those already carried to the House of Lords, so that that portion of the Bill might be passed, by which means the country would obtain some experience of the working of the measure before the next General Election.
  MR. RAIKESsaid, he deemed it desirable that the Committee should consider what course the Government had adopted in dealing with that subject, and what, if this Bill became law, would be the immediate result upon the position of that House. With regard to the first point, two years ago the Select Committee made an inquiry with a view to form public opinion on the subject of the Ballot. They recommended its adoption at municipal elections, but as regarded Parliamentary ones they left the question open. In the following Session the noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington) who was Chairman of that Committee, recommended in a vague and qualified manner the adoption of the Ballot for Parliamentary elections, but now the Government had introduced a Bill to adopt a ballot which was of the most secret character, and would fulfil all that could be demanded by their most extreme supporters. What was the position of that House with respect to the measure? The majority of hon. Members, including the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government himself, were returned at the last General Election as opponents of the Ballot. [Mr. GLADSTONE dissented.] Did the right hon. Gentleman in any previous Parliament ever give a vote in its favour? When he went to Greenwich

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  did he declare that he was going to bring forward the Ballot as a Government measure? In the face of all that equivocal action on the part of the Government hon. Members were called at that late period of the Session to push that measure through Committee, in order to cast upon the other House the responsibility of rejecting it, although the majority of hon. Members had been elected as opponents of the Ballot. He for one did not believe that the House of Commons, if elected by the Ballot, would enjoy the confidence of the country in the same degree as it did now. Instead of being the outcome of the free, open, and unquestionable opinion of the people, it would sink into what would be little better than an organized conspiracy. The Ballot might do in France, where the first article of the creed taught to the people was belief in the Executive; but it would not suit England, where every act of the Executive was viewed with suspicion.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he had heard the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz) say that that Bill deserved the most careful consideration, and he asked whether the Committee had not gone carefully and patiently through each clause. Whatever might be the defects of the existing system of election, it was carried on according to traditionary usage; it was known and it was understood; but an election conducted under the Ballot would not carry with it the confidence of the people, because confidence was the result of experience. Even after experience it would be viewed with distrust, and he should regret its adoption. That Bill proposed to make an extraordinary change in the electoral system of the country, which he deprecated, and ought it to be pushed on in the hot days of July? In his opinion the Ballot ought to be made the subject of discussion in the early part of next Session. He was glad, therefore, that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Salford (Mr. Charley) had challenged a vote of the House on that clause.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Beresford Hope) had addressed the Committee so frequently in reference to that Bill, that he thought the Committee might have been spared another speech from him on the present occasion. The hon. Gen-
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  tleman seemed to have been asleep for a great number of years, and not to have perceived that the question of the Ballot had attained to such importance that it was necessary for the House to express an opinion upon it. In point of fact, the House had decided the question in accordance with the views of the great majority of the county and borough electors in the country; for what they demanded was that the country should have an opportunity of giving its vote freely for any candidate it chose. The House having decided on the Motion for going into Committee in favour of the principle of the Ballot, he thought they might now very comfortably and cordially divide on that clause of the Bill. Hon. Gentlemen opposite could not have taken the course they had adopted unless they were to a certain extent enamoured of the measure, and he believed they would be perfectly satisfied after having done such good service in improving it, which he for one was not prepared to deny, if the clause were passed by a very large majority.
  COLONEL GILPINsaid, it was perfectly charming to notice the way in which hon. Gentlemen below the gangway on the Ministerial side assumed to be the exclusive representatives of public opinion in the country. He should vote against the clause, not because he thought the Ballot would be wholly in favour of hon. Members opposite, but because it would not check personation, which was the principal evil to be remedied in large boroughs. As to the too much vaunted effects of intimidation said to be rife in the community, he thought public opinion was so strong as to make it perfectly impracticable. In 1857, personation was carried on to such an extent at the City of London election that, as was generally stated, one of the candidates was returned by nine dead Jews.
  MR. DISRAELI: Before the Committee divides on this clause I must say that, admitting for the moment the principle of the Ballot, it appears to me that the clause does not supply a sufficient provision to secure the rights of the voters, and that the tendency of this legislation is to disfranchise a considerable portion of them. It is upon that ground, and in consequence of the unsatisfactory provisions which have been made in reference to securing the true exercise of the franchise, that

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  I shall object to pass the clause without a division. I rise, however, particularly to notice a remark of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council which he has made before, and which appears to form the basis of all his speeches on this subject, and, indeed, of a great part of his political speculations. He says the constituencies have decided in favour of the Ballot, and that they necessarily decided in favour of the Ballot because it was a corollary of the formation of the constituencies. Now, these are opinions which must be tested by facts. I do not wish to enter into the principle of the Ballot, or into any political principle involved in the clause before us, but I have heard that statement so often repeated by the right hon. Gentleman that I am bound to say I am in possession of as accurate facts respecting the last Election as probably any hon. Member of this House. First, then, I say it is not correct to state that the constituencies at the last Election decided in favour of the Ballot. I have in my possession an analyzed list relating to the last Election, and it shows that the majority was not by any means in favour of the Ballot. Therefore, that is the first inaccuracy which is so often repeated by the right hon. Gentleman. I come to the next, and I touch upon it particularly because it is not only the right hon. Gentleman who announces that the Ballot is a corollary of the last Reform Bill, but because some of my hon. Friends on this side, especially my hon. Friend the Member for East Suffolk (Mr. Corrance), have drawn vague but terrific pictures of the democracy under which we are now suffering. We ought to have correct notions upon this question, and it is not expedient that hon. Gentlemen on either side of the House, with a view of arriving at very different conclusions, on one side of exultation, and on the other of alarm, should express opinions which have no foundation whatever in fact. The constituency of England at this moment consists of exactly one-third of the adult males. Hon. Gentlemen will, therefore, see at once that that is not quite the form which an overpowering democracy assumes. Moreover, speaking on information furnished me by men likely to have an accurate knowledge of the facts, at the last General Election—the first election after the law which has so alarmed my hon. Friend,
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  and which causes so much exultation to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. E. Forster)—at least a moiety of the new constituency voted for Conservative candidates. If that is the case, I do not think we ought to be so frightened by the awful democracy which has been created. But that is not all. I am not questioning the authentic character of the Parliamentary majority obtained by Her Majesty's Government at the last General Election, because I entirely recognize that it is our duty to bow to a majority in this House. That is the very essence of our Parliamentary constitution. I do not speak with the view of depreciating the large majority that placed the right hon. Gentleman in power. I did not grudge his triumph at the time, and I have acquiesced in the authentic character of that majority; but it is a fact that if his opponents had had at the last General Election the arbitrary disposition of from 25,000 to 30,000 votes—certainly less than 30,000—that majority would not have existed. I state these facts to encourage hon. Members in this House, and to dispel the notion that we are now, and are for ever to be, the slaves of an over whelming democracy. A very little effort—the effort of any political party which is earnest and determined in the support of its opinions—may entirely change the character of that majority in a legitimate and constitutional manner, by means which are comparatively slight. I repeat that I do not make these observations in any way to disparage the Parliamentary majority we face. But it is expedient that the truth should be known upon this subject—that we should not be the slaves of bugbears which we do not attempt to analyze, and that the people of this country should not, through the reiterated assertions of both sides of the House, totally misconceive the character of the Constitution under which we now live. That Constitution has in no way changed in character. It has been enlarged and expanded, but upon principles which have been always practised and recognized in this House. Our Members are still elected by a qualified constituency, a constituency which, to my mind, seems qualified in such a manner as will generally secure a respectable and conscientious electoral body. These are observations which I thought it my duty to make, and I be-

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  lieve they will hear analysis and reflection. Even to-night the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz), whose truly British sentiments I have before recognized, and who keeps up the spirits of the still loyal and constitutional body of this House by his harangues, admitted—as I thought somewhat rashly, for he seemed afterwards to retire from the position he took up—that the county constituencies were subjected to a certain degree of intimidation, and we had the old story of the tenant-farmer, unduly influenced by his landlord. Now, the tenant-farmers of this country are an influential body. I owe my seat in a great degree to them. I believe them to be, on the whole, as independent a body of men as any in the country. No doubt there are exceptions in which a proprietor may unduly exercise his influence over them, though to me these instances are unknown, and, I believe, they will soon be as obsolete as the Dodo. But, after all, what is the influence of the tenant-farmer in the English counties? There are 800,000 electors in the counties, and only 100,000 tenant-farmers. How absurd, then, to contend that these returns of county Members are owing to tenant-farmers unduly influenced by landlords. These statements will, I hope, be accepted and thought over by hon. Gentlemen, and if it be the fact—and from the evidence placed before me I have no doubt it is the fact—that the artificial disposition of less than 30,000 votes at the last General Election would have entirely changed the character of the majority, the House of Commons and the country will see that they need not despair of the Commonwealth.
  Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 214; Noes 127: Majority 87.
  Clause agreed to.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERmoved that the Chairman report Progress.
  MR. WHITBREADsaid, before the Chairman left the Chair, he had a few words to address to the Committee. He thought the termination of the debate on the 3rd clause offered the House a fair opportunity of considering its position with reference to the Bill. He had no doubt that if the Government were
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  to persist in their expressed intention to push forward that Bill, without regard to the period of the year to which they had arrived, they would be supported by a sufficient majority. No doubt they would have as good majorities as had carried them forward hitherto; yet he thought that course was one that was open to some objections, and he thought there were other courses open to them. If the Bill were pressed on at that period of the Session, one or two grievous consequences would be likely to occur. The Bill would be very likely to arrive at its last stage in that House as a very incomplete measure, for in the course of a month or six weeks hon. Members might become impatient of discussing it. He, however, was anxious to see the Bill pass as a complete measure, and as one that would work; and there was one alternative course open to them which they might adopt without wasting the time they had hitherto spent on the Bill. If they were to attempt to dispose of the multitudinous Amendments of which Notice had been given, it must be clear that the Bill could not be sent to the other House of Parliament until a very late period of the summer or the autumn; and he, for one, did not think it would be fair or reasonable of them to expect that the other House would pass a grave and serious Bill like that with undue haste and rapidity. They were bound to anticipate that the other House would require a reasonable time to debate the clauses of the Bill; and, while he advocated the change it proposed, he should be sorry to see it pass the other House without careful deliberation. One course which they might adopt was to drop a great portion of the latter part of the Bill and to proceed only with the Ballot clauses; but he thought that would be an unfortunate alternative, for he should regret to see the Bill launched as a measure, without many of the provisions with regard to corrupt practices and personation which were in it, or which he hoped would be introduced into it. After considering whether it was not possible to adopt a course which would prevent the loss of the time already spent upon that Bill, and which would afford a fair prospect of its passing that year, he humbly ventured to suggest to the House and the Government that it might be possible, without calling, upon the House to sit all

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  through the summer months, for them to take a reasonable holiday, and then return and proceed with the Bill. One further advantage of that course would be that it would give hon. Members time calmly to consider its provisions; and, as it had been stated by hon. Members opposite that the country had never had an opportunity of pronouncing its opinion upon this Bill, an adjournment to the autumn would afford that opportunity, and he sincerely hoped that advantage would be taken of it, and that hon. Members would return prepared to substitute for persistent hostility a disposition to put the Bill into the most complete and practicable form. He was aware that the course he suggested would involve very serious sacrifices of personal convenience to many hon. Members; but still the question at stake was very important, and there were so many questions which were really ripe for legislation, and which could not be taken up until that was settled, that the wisest course they could pursue was for all to sacrifice for once some part of their holiday.
  COLONEL STEPNEYsaid, that he was a Welshman, and that under the circumstances he ventured to submit to them the prosperity of the Ballot.
  MR. RATHBONEsaid, there was a question of much greater importance than the Ballot which must not be lost sight of, for it must be obvious to Members generally that the course of legislation that Session was not such as to raise the character of that House, and though the causes of that were mainly owing to a few persons, the result was much condemned, he believed, by a majority of hon. Members who sat on both sides of the House. He trusted that they would be all willing to make some sacrifices in order to prevent the Session being a wholly abortive one, and that if the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council were acted upon, not only the Ballot Bill, but the Mines Regulation Bill would be passed.
  MR. VERNON HARCOURTsaid, he was sorry to hear such a suggestion made, and still more that it should come from such a quarter. He was, however, quite sure that it was an independent suggestion, and that it did not partake of what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr.
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  Disraeli) called a pre-arranged question. He wanted to know whether the running away of the House of Commons from the Ballot Bill at that moment would convey any favourable impression to the country. If they were to make sacrifices to promote legislation, the best sacrifice they could make would be that of their personal convenience and comfort in order to carry that Bill at once to its legitimate conclusion. He declined to speculate on the conduct of the House of Lords. They had nothing to do with that. They had only to consider their own duty. They had been told over and over again by the occupants of the Treasury bench that this and the Army Bill were the measures they were determined to pass that Session without any regard to time. If they adjourned now, he wanted to know whether it could be said by the Government that they had obtained the judgment of the House of Commons on the Ballot Bill, without regard to time? Then, again, they were not told to what period it was proposed to adjourn. [An hon. MEMBER: The 1st of November.] If it were to the 1st of November, he did not suppose that the members of his profession would object to that particular day as it coincided with the commencement of Term. But what they had to consider was the effect that would be produced upon the country by that adjournment. He was afraid that the opinion which would be entertained by the country of their conduct by such adjournment would be, as the Americans would say, that they wished to let the Bill "slide."
  MR. A. EGERTONsaid, he thought that the convenience of the country Members ought to be consulted as well as that of the Members who lived in London. He proposed, however, a third alternative—namely, that the Bill should be altogether dropped that Session. It might be said that that was the first time that a Ballot Bill had been really presented to the House. It was also a question with those who favoured the principle what kind of ballot ought to be adopted; and it was further a matter of the utmost importance that their constituents should be consulted respecting it. He hoped that the Government would accept his modest suggestion, and postpone any further legislation on the subject until February next.
  MR. CLAYsaid, that without speculating on the proceedings of the other House, he would ask whether it was possible to pass that Bill within the limits of an ordinary Session? Before he was made acquainted with the proposal made by the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Whitbread), he had been asked what he thought should be done, and he answered immediately—"An autumn Session." Certainly, unusual antipathy had been exhibited towards the Bill by hon. Gentlemen opposite. He believed the asperity at present observable would be softened by a short adjournment, and hon. Gentlemen opposite would have an opportunity of consulting the feelings of their constituents. He was much mistaken if they did not find that feeling much more favourable than they imagined.
  MR. MUNDELLAsaid, he would yield to no one in his anxiety to pass this measure; nevertheless, it was impossible, looking at the number of Orders upon the Paper at that period of the Session, amounting to 39, to disguise from themselves the fact that it was utterly impossible to persevere continuously with the Business of the House. Some of the Bills before the House were of great importance, and if they could now proceed with the Ballot Bill, and take up some of those important measures in October or November next, it would give great satisfaction to the country. He represented a large constituency, and if there was one question on which they were resolute it was the question of the Ballot. He had been told by hon. Gentlemen opposite that they would never sit again if that Bill passed. ["Name, name!"] Their name was legion. If the suggestion of the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Whitbread) were adopted it would make the Session honourable to Government, satisfactory to the constituencies, and in every respect equal to its two predecessors.
  SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he would remind the House that by far the larger proportion of the Votes in the Army and Navy Estimates were still to be discussed. Two of the Navy Votes were those relating to the dockyards, and stores, and ships building by contract, all of which would require very great consideration from the House. The Navy Estimates still remaining to be considered involved £6,000,000, and there was a
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  point which would require to be discussed in connection with them—the loss of Her Majesty's ship Captain. Then followed the Appropriation Act, taking ten days itself at least. That was the mere ordinary Business of the Session, and entailed one month's work, even when done in the quickest possible way. So far as the Estimates were concerned, he was prepared to make any sacrifice, and he trusted he should always see that there were 40 Members in their places to discuss the Estimates. He hoped they would not be discussed with fewer than 40 Members on any occasion whatever. It would be unfair to the country if that immense amount of money were voted away without consideration. It was for Her Majesty's Government to consider whether they would prosecute a Bill for which a majority of that House had certainly agreed, but for which the country did not care anything whatever.
  MR. JAMESsaid, it was impossible that that Bill could be entirely dropped. If they had the slightest respect for the pledges and promises they had made, they could never face their constituents again without having first passed that Bill. There was another reason, and a still stronger reason, why the suggestion to drop that Bill could not be accepted, and that was that if it were done it would be equivalent to an admission that Parliamentary government had come to an end. It would be equal to saying that after a long time spent in the discussion of that measure, a minority — and a comparatively small minority—could defeat the intentions and wishes of a large majority. If, therefore, they could not agree to the Ballot Bill being dropped, was it not worthy the consideration of the House what course ought to be adopted? This was the ninth sitting which had been occupied in discussing one of the clauses of this Bill. They would think that part of the time had not been rightly consumed; but he had a right to assume that the opposition had been offered from a conscientious sense of public duty. If that were so, the opponents of the measure would have the same right to pursue the same course on the other clauses of the measure. The House had no right to ask the opponents of the Bill to consider it hastily. It was not a question of departing now, but of doing their duty. There would be a loss, and a sad loss of

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  support to Government, if they halted or faltered in the prosecution of this measure. It was for the Government to say what should be done to attain their object, and they might depend that whatever they demanded of their supporters in the way of sacrifices to secure the all-important end, those sacrifices would be made, and made cheerfully.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, hon. Gentlemen opposite were as accountable as their opponents for delaying Public Business, and he must say that there seemed to be an anxiety on their part to prevent the public having the usual period to consider the question of the Ballot. He declared, as the representative of the great body of the freeholders of North Warwickshire, that they did not want the Ballot, and whether there was to be an interval of three months or six months, so far as they were concerned it would make no difference. He could not see any reason why the House should be called upon to meet again before the usual period.
  SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHERsaid, that, though the inconvenience to Scotch and Irish Members of sitting far into the autumn or winter would be much greater than it could possibly be to English Members, yet he did not hesitate to say that the sacrifice which they might be called upon to make ought not to weigh in the balance for a single moment in competition with that Bill. He was convinced that the best course which Her Majesty's Government could adopt would be to meet in November, as recommended by the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Whitbread). In that case the Mines Regulation Bill, the Scotch Education Bill, and other important measures might be taken up and passed.
  MR. STACPOOLE, as an Irish Member, entirely concurred in what had been stated by the hon. Baronet who had just spoken (Sir Robert Anstruther).
  MR. OSBORNE MORGANsaid, that the Ballot Bill must pass, whether the House sat to the end of September or were to meet again in November. He believed that there was scarcely any hon. Member on that side of the House who would consent to abandon the Bill, and for his own part he would rather lose his seat than do so. If they sat there discussing the Bill at their present rate of progress it would never pass at all; they were leading such a cat-and-dog
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  life. If, however, they were to go to the moors of Scotland or the glaciers of Switzerland for a few weeks, they might come back in a better frame of mind for forwarding the measure.
  MR. CANDLISHsaid, that if they took nine nights in discussing one clause, as there were 40 clauses in the Bill, it was evident that meeting in October or November would not enable the House to pass it. Some two months ago the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government announced that he would ask the House to remain at its work until it would have pronounced definitively on the Army Bill and the Ballot Bill, and only a few nights ago the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council said that he would leave the responsibility of rejecting the measure with the House of Lords. The Government, therefore, were not free to recede from the position they had taken up by adopting the course suggested by the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Whitbread). The Government would not get rid of difficulties by agreeing to meet in November. A considerable minority on that (the Ministerial) side of the House was not in favour of that proposal. It seemed to him that the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council proposed to report Progress at a very early period. It seemed as if it were to give time for that discussion. At any rate, he thought the House ought not to prorogue or adjourn until they had concluded that Bill.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, that at their present rate they would be nearly two years in passing that Bill, according to the calculation of the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Candlish). It was through the incapacity of the Prime Minister for carrying on business that they had got into such a mess, as he did not remember on any other occasion within his Parliamentary experience. He brought in an Army Bill, cut off its tail, and sent it to the House of Lords, and then, when they objected to pass it, he resorted to the Royal Prerogative, and thus inflicted a great insult and outrage upon the House of Lords.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, that the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth (Sir James Elphinstone) was not at liberty to state that anything had been done for the purpose of inflicting insult and outrage upon the House of Lords,

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  because that was to attribute motives to a Member of the House, which was not permitted.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, that he would withdraw the words that he had used, and would confine himself to the matter that was before them. Members of the House were sent there to consider the Estimates; but they had had not done anything towards discharging their primary duty. They had seen the Licensing Bill, the Bill in reference to taxation, the Water Bill, and a large number of other measures withdrawn; and yet hon. Members who could only get into the House by the expedient of pledging themselves to some absurdity, insisted on carrying the Ballot Bill. The right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government must withdraw the Bill, for the simple reason that he had no other alternative.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSONsaid, he thought the somewhat inflated speech of the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir James Elphinstone) afforded an argument in favour of delaying the discussion until they could take it up in a calmer spirit. The great body of the people had displayed no excitement about this question, because they were sure that the Government and the House would be true to their pledge, and that therefore the Bill was safe; and if the Government boldly announced that they would meet in the autumn and carry the Bill, they would have nearly the unanimous support of the Liberal party. The delay in regard to the Estimates was another reason why they should take that course. His hon. and learned Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. V. Harcourt) had talked about being superior to considering what the Lords would do.
  MR. VERNON HARCOURTexplained that he had not used the word "superior;" but had said it was not well for that House to speak of the action of the House of Lords.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSONsaid, he would not attribute to his hon. and learned Friend any expression which was unpleasant, but agreed in thinking that they ought not to be influenced by considerations of what the Lords would do. They owed the House of Lords some courtesy, and should not send that Bill up to them at the fag-end of the Session. So long as they had a House of Lords let them be civil to them. Hon.
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  Members, while having regard to the convenience of the other House, should not be too careful of their own convenience, but would do well to meet in the autumn to carry that Bill.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Gentlemen on both sides of the House, as might be expected, Sir, have entered into this conversation on a subject of interest to us all, in connection with our own personal convenience, and likewise in connection with public policy. As regards the speeches upon the other side of the House—some of which, I think, we have heard before—of course, they have been listened to by us with very great respect; but I am bound to say I think they do not contribute to a solution of the question. Those hon. Gentlemen who have spoken from the other side of the House have not unnaturally repeated their old and approved nostrum—the withdrawal of this Bill; for which they assure us the country does not care. But in offering that advice, they must know that it is opposed to our convictions and pledges, and I hope will not consider it disrespectful if I decline to discuss the reasons urged on its behalf, further than to admit that there is a serious disadvantage in the undue postponement of the consideration of the remaining Votes and Estimates, and that it is desirable they should shortly come under the notice of the House. Referring to the speeches made on this side of the House, I at once allow that the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Whitbread) is one that at least deserves the consideration of the Government, while I think it would be premature, for reasons I will immediately give, if I were to venture to pronounce upon it anything like a decisive opinion at the present moment. I wish to explain to the ton. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Candlish) the view I take of the statement he has made. He says that the Government are engaged to go forward with this Bill, and he refers to declarations of my own, and of my right hon. Friend who has charge of the Bill (Mr. W. E. Forster), from none of which do we in the slightest degree attempt to shrink. On the contrary, we abide by them to their full extent. We retain our conviction that the decided majority of this House is determined to make the settlement within these walls of the Ballot Bill a portion of the Business of the

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  present Session; and that their desire is that Parliament shall not be prorogued until that matter has been conclusively discussed; and the Government are firmly resolved to support the majority in that determination. But, perhaps, my hon. Friend does not clearly apprehend the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford. My hon. Friend the Member for Bedford does not propose to vary in principle from that declaration. He does not propose that the Ballot Bill shall be transferred from the Business of the present year and handed over to the Business of the coming Session. The question he raises is simply one of personal convenience and of advantage in the arrangement of Public Business; but he proceeds upon the basis of assuming as the fixed conviction in all our minds that in the present Session Parliament is to dispose of the Bill. That I take to be a resolution upon which the entire Liberal party is firmly and definitely united. The suggestion that there should be an adjournment of some considerable length, with a view of enabling us at once, or almost at once, to proceed to wind up the other Business, and then in the autumn to meet for the settlement of the remaining portion of this Bill—whether it be a good suggestion or not—is perfectly compatible with the fulfilment of all the engagements which the Government have entered into and all the engagements that the majority of this House have virtually undertaken. In the first place, however, I do not feel so entirely certain as some hon. Gentlemen do of the long period which this Bill has still to occupy in Committee. It may, or may not be so; but we have thus far been engaged in an internecine contest almost upon an essential part of the Bill. That has been determined tonight, and I have no means of judging how much time the House is likely to require, or what will be the rate of progress with regard to the other important clauses of the Bill. For that reason I am not anxious at the present moment that the Government should be committed upon this subject. And further, it is desirable that we should take some more ample means than this conversation has afforded of ascertaining as well as we can what is the state of opinion in all quarters of this House with reference to the comparative convenience of the two courses that are before us—the one, continuity
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  of Sittings; and the other, resumption of Sittings after an adjournment. There is a third reason at which my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) has glanced, and which appears to deserve the consideration of the House. It is most fair, as the labours of this House are so weighty and protracted under all circumstances, that we should have some regard to the personal engagements elsewhere of its Members; but my hon. Friend has promptly reminded us that there is another Assembly materially interested in this question. The House of Lords will have to deal with this Bill, after it has passed from our hands; and I think that it will be felt in all quarters, that before we endeavour to arrive at any positive con-conclusion on the suggestions of my hon. Friend, we should allow some opportunity—I do not know whether public discussion will be necessary—for ascertaining the view of the House of Lords upon the question. I feel certain that there would be a want of courtesy, if not on the part of the House, at least on the part of the Government, if we were to advance precipitantly to any conclusion upon the matter, without using the best means in our power to learn the opinion of the House of Lords. I hope, then, it will be enough to say that we will endeavour, in the course of a few days, to obtain fuller information upon the point. The Government have no disposition to regard their own convenience in this matter. They are, on the contrary, disposed to consult the general convenience of the House. The hon. Member for Sunder-land, and other hon. Members, may rest assured that whatever may be the arrangement agreed upon as to details, it will in volve on the part of the Government no deviation in the slightest degree from the declaration they have heretofore made, because they believe the public interests of the country as well as the credit of Parliament demands that they should not allow that question to pass from their hands without bringing it to a definite conclusion during the present Session of Parliament. I cannot conclude my observations on this occasion without saying that I am most grateful to the hon. Baronet the Member for Portsmouth (Sir James Elphinstone) for the estimate he has been pleased to form of his capacity.
  MR. M'CARTHY DOWNINGsaid, he thought that the House had a right to complain of that proposal being brought forward at that hour (1 o'clock in the morning) without the slightest Notice. It had taken them by surprise. A postponement until November would be most inconvenient to the Scotch and Irish Members, and he, for one, did not think that when they met in November, they would be in a better position to pass this measure than they were in at present—unless, indeed, it was understood that the House would sit on from November to February in order to pass that Bill.
  Motion agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the Clock.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD BILL.
(Mr. Stansfeld, Mr. Secretary Bruce, Mr. William Edward Forster.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD BILL.

  [BILL 230.] COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. PELLsaid, he would move the adjournment of the House. He went to the Vote Office for a copy of the Bill, but found the door locked. The office emitted a smell of sulphur. He did not know who was in possession. That was not the way to carry on the Business of the House.
  SIR PATRICK O'BRIENsaid, he should support the Motion.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Pell.)
  SIR CHARLES ADDERLEYsaid, the reason assigned for the adjournment of the House, if allowed, would apply to all the 39 Orders of the Day.
  MR. D. DALRYMPLEsaid, if it was necessary to adjourn the House at all, it was necessary to adjourn till Wednesday, as the Vote Office would not be out of quarantine for 48 hours.
  MR. STANSFELDsaid, the fact of the Vote Office being closed was immaterial in this case, for copies of the Bill had been distributed for some days.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he understood that that Bill was to be followed
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  by another Bill, which was to be introduced to-morrow. It would be a great advantage to hon. Members to see the sequel to that Bill before they went into Committee.
  SIR GEORGE JENKINSONsaid, he hoped his hon. Friend (Mr. Pell) would not press his Motion for the adjournment of the House. The House could dispose of other Bills of which hon. Members had copies.
  MR. KNIGHTsaid, he must support the Motion for the adjournment of the House, on the ground that a Bill of that character, which placed enormous patronage in the hands of the Government, ought not to be passed hastily at such an hour in the morning (20 minutes past 1 o'clock).
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 56; Noes 140: Majority 84.
  Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday.

INTOXICATING LIQUORS LICENCES SUSPENSION BILL— [BILL 234.]
(Mr. Secretary Bruce, Mr. Winterbotham.)
INTOXICATING LIQUORS LICENCES SUSPENSION BILL— [BILL 234.]

  CONSIDERATION.
  Bill, as amended, considered.
  SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHERsaid, he would move a new clause, empowering Justices to remove licences from one house to another in their division, or in any adjoining division within the same county.
  New Clause:—
  (The justices may, at their discretion, remove a licence or certificate from premises in their division, or in any adjoining division within the same county, to any other eligible premises in their division, if in their opinion the removal is necessary in order to meet the wants of the neighbourhood to which the removal is to be made, and if no objection is made by the occupier of the premises from which the removal is to be made, or by any other person appearing to the justices to have reasonable ground of objection to the removal; and they may, for the purposes of this section, require such proof and make such adjournments as they think fit.
  The like notices shall be given of every intended application for a removal as are by "The Wine and Beerhouse Act 1869," and "The Wine and Beerhouse Act Amendment Act 1870," required in the case of an application for a new certificate

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  under the said Acts for premises not previously licensed: and when a removal is proposed to be made from one division to another, notices shall also be given in like manner in the division, and in respect of the premises from which the removal is to be made, stating the intention to apply for a removal, and the place and time at which the application is to be made.
  For the purposes of this section, the term "division" means a division or place within the meaning of "The Intoxicating Liquors (Licensing Act 1828,")—(Sir Robert Anstruther,)
  —brought up, and read a first and second time, and amended.
  MR. WINTERBOTHAMsaid, he would accept the principle of the clause, but suggested modifications in its wording. The Bill would be comparatively inoperative except in Middlesex and Surrey, because notices could not be given in time for the ensuing sessions elsewhere.
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONmoved the omission from the clause of the words "or in any adjoining division within the same county." He must oppose the clause unless it was modified so as to limit the discretion of the Justices as to the removal of licences from premises within their division.
  Amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out the words "or in any adjoining division within the same county."—(Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson.)
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  MR. ASSHETON CROSSsaid, he must express his regret that the Home Secretary had not brought up a clause on the Report to restrict the grant of spirit licences to grocers.
  MR. WINTERBOTHAMsaid, he would fix the third reading for Thursday, when a clause might be brought up for that purpose, as the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Assheton Cross) wished.
  Amendments made.
  Bill to be read the third time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 262.]
  House adjourned at half after Two o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Metropolitan Tramways Provisional Orders Suspension* (274).
Second Reading—Church Building Acts Amendment* (267); Bishops Resignation Act (1869) Perpetuation* (270).
Committee—Private Chapels (96–275).
Third Reading—Prevention, of Crime* (271), and passed.
Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (£10,000,000) [34 & 35 Vict. c. 51]; Exchequer Bonds (£700,000) [34 & 35 Vict. c. 52]; Ecclesiastical Titles Act Repeal [34 & 35 Vict. c. 53]; Kingsholm District Boundary [34 & 35 Vict. c. 54]; Dogs [34 & 35 Vict. c. 56]; Lunatics Scotland [34 & 35 Vict. c. 55]; Courts of Justice (Additional Site) [34 & 35 Vict. c. 57]; Life Assurance Companies Act (1870) Amendment [34 & 35 Vict. c. 58]; Owens College [34 & 35 Vict. c. cxlvii]; Public Health (Scotland) Supplemental [34 & 35 Vict. c. cxlvi]; Gas and Water Provisional Orders Confirmation [34 & 35 Vict. c. cxliv]; Oyster and Mussel Fisheries Supplemental (No. 2) [34 & 35 Vict. [c. 145].

PRIVATE CHAPELS BILL—(No. 96.)
(The Lord Lyttelton.)
PRIVATE CHAPELS BILL—(No. 96.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Title and Preamble read, and postponed.
  Clause 1 (Bishop may license clergymen of the Church of England to certain private chapels).
  Amendments moved, in page 1, line 8, leave out ("other"); and, in line 9, leave out from ("which") to ("service") in line 12, and insert ("whether consecrated or unconsecrated.")—(The Lori Lyttelton.)
  Amendments agreed to.
  Amendment moved,, in page 1, line 8, after ("public") insert ("or charitable.")—(The Lori Bishop of Gloucester and Bristol.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER AND BRISTOLmoved an Amendment in line 12, after ("divine service") to insert, ("for the inmates of such institution,") in order to make it plain that the services in these chapels were mainly, if not exclusively, for the benefit of the inmates.
  THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTERobjected to the Amendment, which would prevent relatives of inmates who were at the institution on Sunday from attending chapel.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONpointed out that there was another objection to the Amendment — namely, that frequently—in the diocese of London, for instance—the chapels connected with institutions such as the Foundling Hospital were the only places of worship for a large population in the neighbourhood; and the proposal of the right rev. Prelate would exclude them from attending the service.
  Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 2 and 3 amended, and agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Provisions as to private chapels).
  LORD CAIRNSmoved, in line 4, to leave out ("the provisions of this Act shall apply to any private chapel.") The noble and learned Lord said that this Bill placed existing private chapels under restrictions, to which they were not at present subject.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORKsaid, he intended to propose to omit the whole clause on the ground that it would effect an entire change in the parochial system of the Church of England—which had existed from long before the Reformation—and that such a change ought not to be proposed without the most ample notice to everyone concerned. It was quite possible that some change might be proposed of which he would approve; but if this Bill, instead of being entitled "Private Chapels Bill," had been called a "Bill for establishing additional Churches in every Parish in England,"
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  an enormous majority of the parochial clergy would have strenuously opposed it. A private chapel had always been understood to be one attached to the residence of a nobleman or gentleman; but under this clause it would be possible for the Bishop of the diocese, without an opportunity being given for a satisfactory appeal on the part of the clergyman, to establish a new church in any parish. He therefore objected to the clause altogether.
  THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTERsaid, he did not believe that much weight was to be attached, in a practical point of view, to the objection that the Bill would apply to any private chapels whatever like those of the private chapels of noblemen; and as to proprietary chapels they would not be affected by the Bill, being licensed under an altogether different Act. As to the objection of his most reverend Friend that the Bill was a very serious interference with the parochial system, he (the Bishop of Winchester) would at once acknowledge it was. But he would add that such an interference was rendered necessary by the altered state of things around us, which seemed to suggest that the overstraining of the parochial system was the danger against which, in the interests of the Church of England, they had to guard. The altered circumstances of the times demanded a relaxation of the ancient system. To allow an incumbent a veto on the opening of an additional place of worship was putting a bonus on Dissent, for provided the clergyman of the Church of England did not officiate, there was nothing to hinder the opening of a chapel, or the use of the Church Service. This moderate relaxation of the parochial system, subject as it was to the permission of the Bishop, and to an appeal to the Archbishop, was rendered expedient by circumstances. The Bishop's permission would not be given without strong grounds, and if he made a mistake the Archbishop would overrule it. The Bill would prevent the opening of many Dissenting chapels, and would avoid great heartburning, for it was useless to disguise the fact that in many parishes there were persons who desired the service conducted in a different way, and who were now driven to Dissent. On these grounds, and on reasons drawn from what he had seen during a long

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  experience in the administration of a diocese, he would support the Bill.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, he was startled at the right rev. Prelate's proposal to turn the parochial system of the Church into a congregational one. Such a change should certainly not be made perfunctorily and without public attention. The existing system might bear hardly in some instances, but hard oases were apt to make bad law. Was it because there might be in a few parishes a slothful and unreasonable clergyman that they were to alter a system that had worked admirably for a thousand years?
  THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTERsaid, his argument was that the vis inertiœ of Bishops and Archbishops would prevent the Bill from operating disadvantageously on the parochial system.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, it was hardly in the nature of things that an Archbishop should overrule the decision of his suffragans, upon whom he so much depended, except in the strongest possible case.
  THE BISHOP OF WINCHESTERsaid, it was by no means uncommon for a suffragan to be overruled. He remembered a right rev. Friend who was overruled 27 times.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the most rev. Prelate objected to the clause because no sufficient notice had been given to the clergy and others interested; but the Bill had been pending some time in the other House where it had been frequently discussed, but generally at so late an hour that the debates were not reported. He thought that the objections taken to the clause might be met by the insertion of some such words as that "the provisions of this Bill shall not apply to any chapel except at the will of the proprietor." He should be sorry to support the Bill if he thought it would in any way prejudice the parochial system; but he thought the contrary would be the case. It was in large towns where the Bill was most needed, for it was in the large centres of population that the greatest differences would exist, and it was impossible to prevent a large number of persons from having peculiar views, and from preferring a popular preacher or a church where the service was conducted in a way more agreeable to their minds than the usual sober habit of our Church.
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  Not only the parochial system, but something far larger, would be rendered safe by enabling persons to attend services of their favourite description without breaking the Church's unity. He himself could tolerate any kind of preaching as long as the service of the Church of England was preserved; but additional accommodation was in many cases greatly needed, and persons in large towns, who might not like the way in which the service was conducted in the parish church, should have an opportunity of going to a place of worship where the ritual and sermon might be more in accordance with their own views. The parish church, moreover, would thus be preserved from practices which often tended to drive away the congregation.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that the Bill would not be so objectionable were it limited to large towns—say to populations of 20,000; but it would otherwise introduce confusion, discord, and controversy all over the country.
  LORD CAIRNSsaid, it was undoubted that the clergy had not had sufficient notice of the Bill, for that he himself, with more opportunities than they had, though aware that the Bill was before Parliament, was quite unaware of its nature. Nor was it possible to learn this from the Preamble, which lead the reader to believe that the measure dealt with asylums and colleges and kindred institutions, without giving the slightest hint that it would alter the whole parochial system of the country. And the fact that the discussion on the Bill in the other House had not been reported showed that the public had very little information from that source. The clause before their Lordships would afford facilities for sowing broadcast opposition churches throughout the country. He did not say that it might not be advisable in town parishes to afford means for opening another church where those who were unable to join in the worship in the parish church with benefit to themselves might join in a ritual more in accordance with their predilections. But this Bill would not guarantee anything of the kind, for the people of the parish would be left by it to the arbitrium of the Bishop of the diocese. Was it a violent supposition that there might be a parish, in a diocese presided over by a Bishop of High Church or Ritualistic

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  tendencies, who might be satisfied that the incumbent holding the same views was acting in strict conformity to the doctrine and discipline of the Church; while he was, in fact, driving away many of his parishioners from the parish church. The Bishop in such case might join the incumbent in refusing to licence a clergyman to a private chapel. In such case the parishioners would be without a remedy, for the Bill provided no appeal from them to the Archbishop against the decision of the Bishop.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that the Bill was introduced into the House of Commons in February, and was brought up to this House in May. He thought the provisions of this clause were very desirable, for at present if in any parish the clergyman held Ritualistic views, and a considerable portion of the inhabitants regarded them with abhorrence, or vice versâ, no additional church, could be opened, the incumbent being arbiter in his own cause; and the consequence was that people were driven to Dissent. He admitted that the Bishop might possibly support the incumbent; but Bishops as a rule were men of temperate and moderate views—whatever their private bias they would fairly consider the state of a parish, and would endeavour to meet the wishes of the parishioners consistently with the peace of the parish and the good order of the Church. He therefore supported the Bill.
  THE BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER AND BRISTOLsaid, the clergy generally had had no knowledge of the Bill. In the course of the debate much had been said about the altered circumstances of the times requiring "a relaxation of the parochial system"—warnings against "overstraining the parochial system"—and guarding against changes "in the interests of the Church"—he was not sure whether even the plain word "disruption" had not been used. He feared that this clause was far more likely to accelerate than prevent disruption, for it would set class against class, and import a large amount of acrimony into controversies. Under this clause a certain number of religious and well-meaning people in a parish, dissatisfied with some of the services or sermons of the parish church, might go to the Bishop of the diocese asking him to consider their case; and he might issue a licence on
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  their application simply out of compassion. Then an appeal might go to the Archbishop of the Province, who might say, not unreasonably—"As the Bishop of the diocese has granted his licence, and as the objection made to it by the incumbent of the parish is only made upon general grounds, and as the Bishop of the diocese must know the local circumstances much better than I do, I will confirm the licence." In that way the whole responsibility came back upon the Bishop of the diocese, whose earnest desire to do what was best for the souls of the people might lead him to do what was really very undesirable for the general welfare of the Church of England. Then it should be borne in mind that the minister to be appointed would have no cure of souls, and in case there was a change of Bishops in the diocese the new Bishop might disapprove of the working of the licence, and at once withdraw the licence, which might lead to a very undesirable state of things in the parish. He thought that the whole clause ought to be omitted from the Bill.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYfelt that there was much weight in the arguments on both sides. Two objections were made to the Bill—one that such a measure ought not to be pressed forward at the present time, when no sufficient notice had been given to the clergy—the other that such a measure ought not to be passed at all. As to the question of opportuneness, it was always a great advantage for an ecclesiastical measure to have passed through the House of Commons, and as it had been discussed there, and had been before their Lordships' House since May last, it could not be said that anybody had been taken by surprise. The proposal was undoubtedly an innovation on the rights of the parochial clergy. But the very reason which had led to the introduction, of the measure was that from the circumstances in which the parochial clergy were placed, there were some views which they took of their rights which it was almost impossible to get them to surrender; and one of these views was that the particular system of worship which they taught, however far it might be carried to an extreme, was the system to which all their parishioners ought to submit. If Parliament waited until it had the full concurrence

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  of the clergy on this matter it would have to wait a very long time indeed, for the whole object of the Bill was to introduce a change in regard to the parochial clergy. The measure was experimental; but, after considering the difficulties on both sides, he was inclined to anticipate more good than harm from the measure. He had been lately reminded of the origin of Lady Huntingdon's Connection. Holding strong Evangelical opinions, which were now very common in the Church, but were not so at that time, Lady Huntingdon was anxious to build chapels for the promotion of those opinions in connection with the Church of England; but she was prevented from so doing, and consequently formed a body which, though not differing in doctrine, and scarcely perceptibly in worship, had been ever since separate from the Church of England, and therefore more or less hostile towards it. Had this measure then been law, her efforts, as had been pointed out to him, instead of being a source of weakness to the Church of England, would have been a source of strength to it. It had been urged that the measure would chiefly apply to towns. But in towns, if a man did not like the form of service in his own parish church, he could generally go to another where the ministrations were more to his liking. In a country parish, however, where a man was under the pastoral care of an extreme person—and he feared there were such men in the Church—the parishioner was helpless unless he was prepared to become a Dissenter—for he was handed over to the tender mercies of men who showed that they had no consideration save for their own opinions. The Bill would impose a salutary check upon such incumbents, and would have a tendency to make the Church of England more completely national. He doubted whether the Bill would be resorted to very largely, for the very fact that there was such a power would probably put a stop to a good many of the cases which called for it. Such a measure would tend to make the Church of England more completely national than it now was, and on these grounds, though after much hesitation, he should support the Bill as an experiment.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYagreed with the most rev. Primate that the time for bringing forward the mea-
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  sure was not inopportune, if the measure itself was opportune, and the proper steps had been taken for making it known to those who were interested. The most rev. Primate had described the Bill as "experimental," but he (the Marquess of Salisbury) thought, with interests like those of the Church of England at stake, such an "experiment" as this was somewhat dangerous—especially as it would be impossible to go back when once you had gone forward. The most rev. Primate explained that the Bill was intended as a relief to the laity against unreasonable persons holding benefices in the Church of England. Now, the clergy might be unreasonable and the Bishops might be all that was the reverse; but it was not fair for the clergy to pass without notice a measure hostile to them, which would put such a weapon into the hands of the Bishops against them. If the clergy were so certain to be in the wrong, and the Bishops so sure to be in the right, a Bill of this kind might be passed after due notice and consideration; but the clergy should first be heard on the subject. It was quite alien to all our habits of legislation to pass so penal a Bill in regard to a particular body, without allowing the members of that body to be heard in their defence. This Bill gave enormous power to the Bishops, and imposed enormous liability upon the clergy. The Bishops were here to speak for themselves, but the clergy were not, and in common fairness to them, another year should be suffered to elapse before this proposal was pressed. There would be another advantage in delay, because during the recess some of their Lordships might very likely cross the border into a sister country where a system existed which encouraged the erection of opposition churches in the same parish—an Established Church with a Free Kirk close by—so that a parishioner might go from one to another as the clergyman of of either happened to offend him. Under this Bill, if a rich man were offended by the clergyman, and got the Bishops' ear, his weapon was ready; he had only to build an opposition church over the way, and he would make the clergyman's life a burden to him. It seemed to be thought that the Bill would operate as a remedy for Ritualistic practices. This was a great mistake. The Bill was more likely to operate entirely in the opposite direction. A large amount of

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  money was available on the Ritualistic side, and there would probably be a more frequent use of it under the powers of the Bill than some of their Lordships contemplated.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, this clause was not proposed by reason of any deficiency in church accommodation, but in order to enable people to get up a rival church in any parish. That was certain to introduce confusion of the most dangerous kind. It might be that an incumbent was perverse and unreasonable; but he thought better means could be devised for giving the Bishop a power of controlling and checking objectionable practices by clergymen in his diocese. From the Bill as it stood a mischievous confusion would inevitably result, for the Bishop would have nothing to guide him in the exercise of his discretion.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDONrecommended his noble Friend (Lord Lyttelton) to withdraw this part of the Bill, not because he felt very strongly the objections urged to it, but on the simple ground that the clergy had not had a sufficient opportunity of considering it. For his part he thought there was a growing necessity for some such measure; but he did not think it would be fair to legislate upon so important a subject, affecting the feelings as well as the interests of the clergy, without giving them adequate notice. He could not, however, agree that no such measure was necessary. Of late years the whole tenour of legislation with regard to the Church had been to diminish the rights of the laity and make the incumbent more absolute in his parish. Thus, with the abolition of church rates the laity had lost the power of the purse strings; and the Bishop's influence, legal or illegal, was much more powerful before the passing of the Plurality and Clergy Discipline Acts than it now was. This Bill would give the parishioners some sort of remedy where extreme views, or form of worship to which they objected, were thrust upon them by the incumbent; and he felt strongly that, if the Church of England is to be kept together in unity, some means must be found by which the rights of the parishioners might be more effectually secured to them than was done under the present state of the law.
  THE EARL OF POWISsaid, the clause under discussion had nothing to do with other parts of the Bill, and he thought
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  it would be by far the most prudent course to strike out a clause upon which the two Metropolitans were wholly at issue.
  LORD LYTTELTONsaid, he could not understand the argument of surprise. The Bill had been a considerable time before Parliament. The title called attention to it; the clause was introduced after debate in the other House; it had been before their Lordships more than two months, and the usual time had been allowed between its various stages. The clergy had had the same opportunity of considering it as other people had enjoyed; and while he had received letters from clergymen expressing hearty approval of it, he had seen no signs of opposition to it on the part of the clergy. As to the argument derived by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) from Scotland, the Established and the Free Church there were distinct organizations; but here what the noble Marquess called the opposition Churches would form a part of the same system, and be under the same ecclesiastical law. Then it was said that the Bishops had nothing to guide them in determining the cases brought before them. But surely, through their Archdeacons and Rural Deans, the Bishops had excellent opportunities of ascertaining what occurred within their dioceses. To assume that they would move under the Bill without obtaining full information upon the cases brought before them was to say little for the tact and discretion of the Bishops, as well as for their knowledge of the state of affairs within their jurisdiction.
  On Question, That the words proposed be left out stand part of the Clause? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 28; Not-Contents 35: Majority 7.
  Resolved in the Negative.
  Clause disagreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Preamble and Title again read, and agreed to.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 275.)
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock, 'till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.