Sitting of 12 July 1871

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Poor Rate Assessment and Collection Act (1869) Amendment* [241]; Irish Church Act (1869) Amendment* [244]; Maynooth College* [243].
First Reading—Tramways (Ireland)* [245].
Second Reading—Elementary Education Act (1870) Amendment [67], put off; Local and Personal Acts (Ireland) [26], debate adjourned; Hosiery Manufacture (Wages)* [196], debate adjourned; Consolidated Fund (£10,000,000)*; Exchequer Bonds (£700,000)*.
Committee—Report—Industrial and Provident Societies Amendment* [188–240].
Report—Municipal Corporations (Borough, &c. Funds)* [203–242].
Withdrawn—Habitual Drunkards [38]; Customs and Inland Revenue Act (1870) Extension (Ireland)* [33]; Game Birds (Ireland)* [184].

HABITUAL DRUNKARDS BILL— [BILL 38.]
(Mr. Donald Dalrymple, Mr. Gordon, Mr. Pease, Mr. Downing.)
HABITUAL DRUNKARDS BILL— [BILL 38.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. D. DALRYMPLE, in rising to move that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the questions embodied in the measure before them were, whether the importance of the subject and the interest taken in it had diminished; whether drunkenness was a crime or a disease,
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  or both; and whether drunkards were to be cured or punished? Those were the questions which he intended to ask and answer. With regard to the first, the unvaried support which the Bill had received, both inside and outside of that House, as evidenced by the numerous signatures to the several Petitions he at that time held in his hand, and the increasing support of hon. Members, showed that the public were still keenly alive to the importance of the question; and he would further call the attention of the House with regard to the second to a series of Returns obtained at private expense from 259 chief constables and superintendents of police throughout Great Britain, which, though necessarily incomplete and not including the Metropolis—Colonel Henderson having declined to furnish that information—showed that in the year ending September, 1870, there had been 106,982 convictions for drunkenness, and 233,935 criminal convictions of all kinds, of which 27,450 were for offences due to drunkenness, so that there were 134,432 convictions during the year due to drunkenness in some form or other. He had no Return from Ireland; but feared that, from the eager nature of the support accorded to the Bill by the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Maguire) and the hon. Member for Cork County (Mr. Downing), despite the labours of Father Mathew, drunkenness was not unknown there. Of the 259 chief constables and superintendents, 150 approved the measure, and not one expressed disapprobation. A Memorial, presented a few days ago to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and signed by Peers, Bishops, magistrates, clergymen, a number of influential members of the profession to which he (Mr. Dalrymple) belonged, and representatives of the licensed victuallers of England also expressed decided approval of the Bill; and the teetotallers of the United Kingdom gave it, to a certain extent, their support. He would not trouble the House with any of the hundreds upon hundreds of letters he had received filled with harrowing details, as bearing upon the third and last of the questions he had put forth; but he must contend that drunkards must be dealt with either for their own sake or for the sake of the community, and they must be so dealt with either in gaol or in some

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  such institution as he proposed. Now, for years and years drunkenness had been treated as a crime. That plan had filled their gaols and workhouses and asylums, and was increasing their rates; but it had failed. The hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hibbert) had recently told the Justices of Salford of a man who had been punished for drunkenness 140 different times; and there were many other instances where men and women had passed almost a life in gaol from this cause. Was such a system worth perpetuating? Another plan had been tried with better success; and that plan he had tried to embody in the Bill. The persons with whom it proposed to deal—not the occasional drunkards—were those who either by hereditary taint—a far more frequent cause of drunkenness than non-professional persons supposed—or from the exhaustion of nervous energy—one of the most frequent concomitants of high civilization—or by the force of evil example, had recourse for delusive relief to the use of alcohol to such an extent that the mastery over reason and morality was complete. Such persons had passed into a state of disorder in which both the brain and stomach were affected by the excessive use of alcohol. To restore these persons to health they must remove the alluring but deceptive agent, and place them under influences which were moral, mental, medicinal, and hygienic. It was of no use to rail at liquor as "the devil's device." Used in moderation, liquor, per se, was no more harmful than any other combination of elements which they were in the habit of using. It was the abuse of liquor, particularly in secret, with which it was necessary to deal; and in so dealing with it there was no via media, at least until the education recently provided had taught future generations that drinking was at once a vice and a mistake. No warning or instruction, no sight of the distress he caused to all around him, would teach the habitual drunkard. He must be restrained, and the question was how to restrain him. The Bill adopted the machinery of the lunacy laws, which he would have avoided if he could; but thought it a lesser evil to avail himself of this machinery than to create new machinery. Moreover, his contention was that an habitual drunkard was ipso facto non compos mentis. He was told that the Commissioners in Lunacy objected
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  to the Bill, and he was not surprised, because the genus Commissioner, like everybody else, did not like increased work without increased pay; but he thought that the work imposed on them by the Bill would be comparatively small, unless, indeed, the Bill succeeded beyond his expectations, and then its success would be its own justification. As a fact, he was convinced that one Commissioner, working 25 days in the year, would be able to do all the extra work incurred under the measure. There were three ways in which the Bill would deal with habitual drunkards; first, by placing them in a reformatory through their own voluntary action—a process which existed at present, but had failed, or been attended only with partial success, owing to the inability to keep persons under restraint longer than they pleased to remain; secondly, by the action of relatives, Clauses 6 to 11, affording complete protection against an improper application of that part of the measure; thirdly, by magisterial action in committing to reformatories persons who had been convicted three times within six months, either of drunkenness or of offences connected with drunkenness. The Bill applied to England and Wales, Scotland and Ireand, and to men and women alike. There were two categories of objections. The first included the infringement of personal liberty, liability to abuse from sordid and interested motives, difficulty of defining, and the costliness of the process. As regarded the infringement of personal liberty, they were told that men had an inalienable right to drink as much as they pleased; but he maintained that when alcohol was abused to such an extent as to render men dangerous to themselves and others, and to bring poverty and misery on themselves and their families, and make them burdens on society, personal liberty must succumb to the public interest. That principle had already been earned out with regard to sanitary arrangements. Then it was said that the power given to relatives would, for interested and sordid motives, be abused. He did not deny that persons had been unjustly detained as lunatics, though such cases were far less frequent than they were supposed to be; but the Bill provided against such an abuse of it, and he hoped effectually. He conceived that a man proved

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  to be in the habit of endangering his own life and the lives of others, and ruining his family from his indulgence in drink, might fairly come under the operation of the Bill. There was no chance of an undue infringement of personal liberty, because, to bring about such a result, there must be a combination of unscrupulous relatives, reformatory proprietors ready to incur the penalties imposed by the Act of 8 & 9 Vict. The provisions of which in a degree were incorporated in the Bill, two corrupt medical men to sign certificates, blind magistrates, hoodwinked inspectors, and patients who could not talk and give any explanation of their own condition. Under one of the provisions of the Bill no person admitted to a reformatory on his own application, or on the application of his friends, should be detained for less than three months, or more than 12 months, but power would be given to proper authorities to extend or shorten the period of detention. He was told there was immense difficulty in defining an habitual drunkard; but he maintained, on the contrary, that the definition was sharp and distinct. In Part I. of this Bill, the habitual drunkard was declared to be—
  "One who by reason of frequent, excessive or constant use of intoxicating liquors is incapable of self-control, dangerous to himself or others, or incapable of proper attention and care for himself and his family."
  If a drinker did not come up—or rather down—to that mark, he would not come under the operation of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department told him a few days since that if the Bill had been in operation a generation or two ago a most distinguished statesman and a most eminent poet might both have been shut up as habitual drunkards. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman had sufficiently attended to the words in his definition "incapable of self-control," and "proper attention and care for himself and his family." The persons to whom he alluded did not fall under that description, otherwise their names would not have been handed down to posterity. Again, the right hon. Gentleman said that the seducer and the gambler were pests of society, and that as it was almost impossible to control them, they ought, according to the principle
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  of that Bill, to be shut up. Two, or even three, blacks did not make a white; and though it might be very desirable that the seducer should be rendered chaste, and the gambler careful, that was no reason why a much more numerous and dangerous class of persons should be left to themselves. He had been told that in some parts of England, and especially in the North, hundreds of men were always drunk on Saturday and Sunday, sobered themselves on Monday, and were sober and worked well all the rest of the week; and some men went to bed drunk every night, and yet managed their affairs with discretion. Such cases did not come within the scope of the Bill; but he might add that those persons generally got worse and worse, until at last they became fit subjects for confinement. With regard to the objection raised against the Bill on account of the cost it would entail, he might put against that expenditure the present cost of criminals, and show that the measure, in preventing crime, would result in economy to ratepayers, and it was to be observed that in certain reformatories for the inebriated, established in the United States, 40 or 60 per cent were cured. Under these circumstances, he proposed that power should be given to magistrates and Boards of Guardians to establish and maintain reformatories under the Bill, and there was no need to fear that those functionaries would rush recklessly and unnecessarily into expense. In his opinion, the first effect of the Bill would be to cause these reformatories to be established for the upper and middle classes. Their working would then be watched, and if they proved successful, their success would justify magistrates and Guardians in providing similar institutions for the poorer classes. In the second category of objections, the first objection was that the evil was of too great magnitude to be dealt with. Admitting the great extent of the evil, he saw no reason why the struggling drunkard should not be assisted to reform, or light be thrown in on the darkness around him. He was told that relapses would be frequent. He admitted that the disorder was not exempt from the general law of relapse; but the reformation of the first batch of drunkards would be the most costly and difficult. If they had 75 per

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  cent of failures at first, they would only have 50 per cent next, and there would afterwards he fewer failures till they came down to the residuum beyond which they could not hope to go. What was to be done with that residuum would be a problem for the future. As he had observed before, from Returns published with respect to these reformatories in America, it appeared that the annual cures amounted to from 40 to 60 per cent. He might be told that the House could not place any reliance upon these cures. Well, but the managers of the reformatories had not been content to consider a man cured because he left sober, promising well for the future. They had taken the trouble to follow him into his inner and future life, and had seen him restored to credit and to occupation, to home and happiness, to self-control and self-respect. That was what he called a cure. It had been objected to these institutions that the use of liquors was not unknown in them. That was entirely a question of treatment. The most eminent managers of these establishments, and those who had taken the treatment of drunkenness under their special care, were in favour of the total abolition of the use of liquors, while there were others who preferred to adopt the move gradual method of "tapering off." He had refrained from garnishing his statement with the appaling facts respecting habitual drunkards which lay in heaps around him. It was to the judgment of the House, and not to its sentiment that he desired to appeal; and, in conclusion, he begged to move the second reading of the Bill.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the second time."—(Mr. Donald Dalrymple.)
  MR. SALTsaid, he was sure that the Bill of the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Dalrymple) must command the sympathy of the House; but at the same time it was one which it would be extremely difficult to put into operation. It was to him (Mr. Salt) a matter passing his comprehension that so many skilled workmen, earning great wages, with comfortable homes, nice wives, and good families, should ruin their health and position by the extraordinary habit of Saturday night and Sunday drunkenness. But then came the question, whether the
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  Bill would deal with the evil which it proposed to remedy? What he failed to understand in the Bill was to what extent the hon. Member proposed to push its provisions. At what point did he seize the habitual drunkard where he was not already provided for? If a man were taken before a magistrate in a state of hopeless imbecility, the law already provided for him, for in a large lunatic asylum which he had visited, belonging to his own county, he could point out many cases of persons who were taken care of because they had become incapable through drunkenness of taking care of themselves; and he also knew that some persons in a good rank of society, who had not been quite brought down to a state of imbecility by habitual drunkenness, were at their own request temporarily confined in a lunatic asylum. He doubted whether it would be possible to empower a magistrate to send a drunkard, not reduced to a state of imbecility, to a lunatic asylum, and it should be borne in mind that by sending a man to a lunatic asylum instead of to a gaol, a sort of imputation would attach to the character and health of his whole family. He did not suggest that difficulty with any view to oppose the benevolent object of the measure under consideration, but because he thought that if they attempted to apply an impracticable remedy to the evil which they all desired to cure, they would do more harm that good.
  MR. AKROYDsaid, he must remark that if he wanted to make out a case for that Bill, he need only refer to the observations of the hon. Gentleman who had last spoken (Mr. Salt), and who had stated that habitual drunkenness had tended to swell the number of inmates in the lunatic asylum of his county. He could not help suspecting that the light hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, when he introduced his amended Licensing Bill, was under the apprehension that his measure would obviate legislation such as that now proposed. [Mr. BRUCE: No.] Whatever legislation might do on this side, that had not been the case on the other side of the Atlantic, where the prohibitory liquor laws had been fairly tested, and where yet these reformatories existed. From the statistics received from the United States, out of 3,000 inebriates who were confined in

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  Washington House Reformatory, in Boston, 2,000 were discharged apparently cured. In this country we have already passed an Act of Parliament for dealing with habitual criminals—the Habitual Criminals Act, 1869. Under this Act a person twice convicted of felony is subject to supervision of police for a period not exceeding seven years. These arbitrary powers are intended to be reformatory in their character, and to prevent criminals from acquiring the habit of crime. Unfortunately the Act does not touch the habitual sot—the greatest of criminals against himself, and against the peace and happiness of his family. A great number of statistics might be quoted in reference to drunkenness, but he thought it was scarcely necessary to do so, for there could hardly be an hon. Member who, within the range of his own experience, had not known some wretched cases of habitual drunkenness, and who had sought to relieve the family from its consequences. He had in his hand a statement of the medical attendant of the lunatic asylum at York, who pointed out the necessity of some such legislation as that now under consideration. That Report was not originally intended for the public, being a Report to the Commissioners of the asylum. At Leeds, in 1870, the total number of convictions for drunkenness was 1,799, and of those 234 were second convictions, 130 were third convictions, and 301 were fourth convictions. In the same town the total convictions during the same period for crime of all sorts were 5,079; but no lower than 2,261 of the persons so convicted were drunk at the time when they were taken into custody, and one woman was convicted 77 times for drunkenness during the last two years. One could hardly speak to a medical man who did not advocate some such measure as the present. The number of habitual drunkards who were ruining themselves and their families was on the increase, and by sanctioning this measure the House would do something towards lessening the obligation that he conceived lay upon it, of checking the downward course of those unfortunate persons. The hon. Promoter of the Bill could not expect to carry it much further in the present Session, but he (Mr. Akroyd) I rusted that it would be re-introduced for consideration next year.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSONsaid, he was of opinion that the provisions of the Bill would require careful consideration, and that some of them were hardly likely to pass at all. Upon the second reading, however, they had only to speak on the principle of the measure, and he was glad of the opportunity of calling attention to the position in which they stood with regard to legislation for drunkards. Six different Bills on the subject had been brought in, and every one was based on the principle that it was impossible to check the evil of drunkenness, without removing the facilities for getting drunk; and now came the Bill of the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Dalrymple), which did not attack the causes of drunkenness, but sought to mitigate the evils arising from it. The hon. Member for Bath most distinctly admitted that punishment and teetotal lecturing had failed to cure drunkenness. He concurred in that statement, and believed that lecturing would always fail to prevent drunkenness so long as there were in the country 150,000 persons who got their living by supplying liquor, and whose interest it was to induce people to drink. There would be considerable difficulty in working some of the clauses of the Bill, as for instance, in ascertaining who was a drunkard coming within the scope of the Bill; but he would leave it to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department to pick what holes he could in it. Of course, his hon. Friend the Member for Bath would find it impossible to pass the Bill this Session, and he would therefore have ample time to improve its machinery. He was friendly to any measure which was at all feasible for lessening the evils of drunkenness, and that was a permissive Bill. It did not enact anything, but only gave power to magistrates, if they chose, to levy rates for the purposes of the Bill. He much preferred, however, his own measure, which gave the ratepayers power to remove the manufactories of drunkenness. There was an absolute necessity for some stringent measure on this subject, for Parliament had been trying to manage habitual drunkards for centuries, their gaols, their workhouses, their asylums were simply monuments of the energy of the publicans of this country, their object mainly being to provide for the drunkards who were made by the

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  people who sold drink. He hoped the sympathy which the Bill had excited would prove to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department that the evil was not to be met by mere suspensory Acts; and, if he declined to do what was requisite himself, he should not stand in the way of others who were endeavouring to remove one of the greatest evils which afflicted this country.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, he hoped the House would be careful not to be led away, under a feeling of the evils of drunkenness, to interfere so far with the liberty of the subject as that Bill proposed they should do. What were they asked to do by that Bill? On a certain state of facts constituting a bad habit, and solely on the opinion of two medical gentlemen, a person was to be locked up for six months. That was a very strong measure. There were many other bad habits which all of them, perhaps, more or less, might have fallen into, and to which he conceived in strict justice the principle of the Bill ought to apply, some of which led to aberration of mind not less than drunkenness: gambling, for instance, whether on the Stock Exchange, on the race-course, or in the course of trade, which tended quite as much as drunkenness to the ruin of families. And if they commenced this species of legislation, where were they to stop? A man might take one glass of wine or beer a-day, and if in the opinion of two medical men that habit had rendered him incapable of giving proper attention to his family, what was to be done? Some friend might ask the magistrate to shut him up, and, even without the man being brought before the magistrate or saying a single word in his defence, on the testimony of one other person he was to be locked up for six months. They knew, also, that medical men were in the habit of prescribing enormous quantities of stimulants, and that might have something to do with patients continuing the habit after recovery. Whether from a change in the Gulf Stream, or from some other cause, he did not pretend to say; but they seemed to imagine that it was impossible to get through life without drink. If a man's mind had become unsound through intemperance or otherwise, or if he committed a breach of the peace, there were plenty of modes of
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  dealing with him either in a lunatic asylum or gaol. But they must draw the line somewhere. It might be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to trace the cause of a person's unsoundness of mind; but unsoundness of mind alone was the ground on which personal liberty should be interfered with. If a man committed a breach of the peace he ought to be punished in gaol, instead of treating him in some more convenient and comfortable place provided for him by the ratepayers in order to cure him of his bad habits. If such a Bill as this had been proposed 60 years ago, it would have been necessary to turn the whole kingdom into one lock-up, of which the doctors should have had the key. If they once began to legislate in this direction, it would be very difficult to know where they could stop. He should oppose the Bill.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henley), who had just sat down, had imitated the example of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Salt), by replying to his own arguments, and removing his own objections. For instance, he had at that moment asserted that there existed a very general practice amongst medical men to prescribe stimulants very freely to their patients; and yet, in the opening of his speech, he affected great alarm at the probability of a medical man giving a certificate which would shut up in an asylum a person who took a single glass of wine in the day, on the plea that it incapacitated that person from minding his or her affairs. It was rather hard to understand how danger to the liberty of the subject—especially to moderate drinkers—could arise from those who were stated to be so partial to the liberal use of stimulants. But was there any real danger to the liberty of the subject in the main proposal of that Bill? What was the object of the Bill? To endeavour to prevent the infatuated victims of a deplorable vice from rushing headlong to destruction, and bringing misery and ruin upon them. The object was to prevent the desperate drunkard from deliberate suicide—from dragging down his wife and children to poverty and despair. To talk of the liberty of the subject in such a case was a mockery of a great principle. Now, they in this country affected a profound reverence for what they termed the

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  liberty of the subject; but, assuming that their respect for that principle was really sincere and honest, would they allow him to ask—was this the only country in which that principle was reverenced? Was there less respect for personal liberty in the United States of America than there was in this country? He could easily imagine that they thought themselves superior in that respect to all other nations; but if they reflected for a moment, they would see that in a country like America, with a government springing directly from the people, the laws were at least as jealous of personal liberty as in any country of which they knew anything. And yet, what was the fact with respect to America? Why, that similar institutions to those which that Bill sought to establish existed in different parts of the United States. Not only did they exist in America, but they did so with the sanction and approval of the public, not because they interfered with legitimate personal freedom, but that they interfered with the power of a rash and a reckless man or woman to bring ruin upon themselves and others. His hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Sir Wilfrid Lawson), who had given to that Bill rather a grudging support, preferred, as he said, locking up the drink to locking up the drunkard. "You," he said, "propose to lock up the man; I propose to lock up the drink from him." But did his hon. Friend really mean to say that if his favourite measure were passed into law he would thus put an end to the evil against which that Bill was directed? Assume for a moment that they had a Maine Liquor Law in this country, would that put an end to drinking, and above all to what was known as secret drinking? His own opinion was this—that open drinking, with all its evils, was safer to the country, safer to society, than that legalized hypocrisy which affected to shut up the drink, but which opened a hundred sources of secret drinking. Pass what law they might—even one so seriously interfering with the liberty of the subject as one based on the Maine Liquor model—and did they hope thereby to put an end to drunkenness, and prevent individuals from deliberately persisting in a course which led to inevitable ruin of health, position, character, and family? Those who were so infatuated, who were bent on self-destruction,
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  would find the means of self-indulgence, even though every publichouse in the district were closed by law. Did he want a proof of this, he had it in the fact, that in those very States of America in which the Maine Liquor system was attempted to be put in force, asylums such as that Bill contemplated had been and were in beneficial operation, proving that where there was a determination to have the drink, it could be had—that, in fact, his hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle could not practically shut up the drink from the drunkard. The real question was this—was that Bill necessary—was it called for? He would put it to hon. Members, was there any one hon. Gentleman in that House who, in his own district, in his own locality, nay, in his own circle, did not know—not a poor besotted mechanic who drank two days in the week, not a wretched labourer who sought in periodical debauch a desperate relief from the misery of his position; but some confirmed drunkard in the better class of society, whom, nothing could restrain, whom no influence, no advice, no entreaty of friends or relatives could save from destruction? As a rule, every hon. Member of that House was a magistrate, and had administered the law with respect to drunkenness; was there one of them who had not, at one time or other, seen the necessity for some means of reformation other than that which the existing law provided? He himself had been mayor of his own city for a period of four years, and he had acted as a magistrate for several years more, and during that time that very question had pressed itself over and over again upon his attention. Day after day, week after week, month after month, the same persons were brought up for habitual drunkenness. The offender was fined, or possibly imprisoned for 24 or 48 hours; but there was no power to shut him up for a sufficient time to bring him or her to a state of health of body and mind. Nor were these persons always of the humbler classes. He knew many deplorable instances of that awful vice, amounting to practical suicide, in families possessing every comfort and every luxury which wealth could provide. Indeed, during the time that House had been sitting that year, he had heard of a melancholy case—that of a woman of good position who could not be prevented

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  from accomplishing her own destruction by that terrible habit—whom no influence could save—who had again and again made promises of reformation, only to break them—who, a few moments before she died, frantically shrieked out for "one other glass of whiskey for the sake of Jesus! Now, that woman was not a lunatic in the sense that would entitle her friends to place her in a lunatic asylum, and it would be hard to find a medical man who would give a certificate which would justify her confinement in such an institution; but were the Bill now before that House the law of the land, she could have been saved from ruin and restored to her friends and family in health and happiness. Now, there was really no violation of principle, and no innovation, in the main proposal of this Bill. Hon. Members said it was an interference with personal liberty. Granted. But did not the existing law do that? They had, however, to punish the drunkard by fine or by imprisonment—imprisonment for 24 or 48 hours. So far, that was a violation of personal liberty; but it was for the protection of society as well as for the reformation of the offender. But was he reformed by that fine or by that imprisonment? Not a bit; he soon became used to the one and callous to the other. The imprisonment, such as it was, gave no sufficient time for reformation; no sufficient time for reflection; no sufficient time for the operation of better influences. What was required for real reformation was such a seclusion from the world and its temptations as might restore health to the body and strength to the shattered nervous system of the habitual drunkard; and they all knew how much the mind depended for its healthy tone upon the state of the body, and that generally with health of the body came health and strength of mind. They required to got at the confirmed drunkard when he was sober, when he was penitent, when he could reflect and look into himself—when counsel could reach his ear, and when sympathy could touch his heart; and so long as he had the means of gratifying his passion, they could have no real access to his reason or his conscience. Hon. Gentlemen seemed to think alone of that so-called liberty of the subject, although, taken in a practical sense, it meant liberty of self-destruction, liberty of perpetrating
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  moral, social, and physical suicide—liberty of inflicting upon others, and those the nearest who ought to be the dearest, the direst calamity—inflicting upon them the worst that the worst enemy could inflict upon them. But was there to be no consideration for the wives and families of those confirmed drunkards. Were they not entitled to the protection of the law? In France, if a man had entered upon the path of ruin, and was deliberately rushing to his fate, a council of his family was hold, and his property was taken out of his charge, so as as to save it from destruction, and for the benefit of himself or those who belonged to him. Now, was not that a most legitimate interference with the liberty of the individual, or his power of inflicting misery on himself and others? And that was the ruling principle of the present Bill—to save the besotted victim of a deadly vice from bringing ruin on himself and on his family. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Henley) had spoken of the improved state of society, and said that 50 or 60 years ago such a proposal would have been more reasonable than it was at present. No doubt the tone of modern society had improved in many respects; their manners and habits were more refined, their tastes were improved, their enjoyments were more elevated. The host of to-day did not glory in putting all his guests under his table; nor did the individual boast, as in olden times, of his capacity for "tucking" so many bottles of claret or tumblers of punch "under his belt." Still there were, in these, as in former times, individuals of both sexes who would not practice moderation, who would drink recklessly, madly, desperately—who would peril body and soul to gratify a morbid appetite; and these were the people, and none others, to whom that Bill applied. Whatever might be the fate of that proposal in the present Session, his hon. Friend the Member for Bath deserved great credit for bringing it before that House and the country. He had brought it forward in an able, wise, and temperate spirit; and he might well congratulate himself upon being the pioneer in a great work of morality and reformation. What they had to deal with now was the principle, the main object of the Bill; the details might be fairly left

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  to the further consideration of the House. The main object of that measure was to afford an opportunity of reflection, and repentance, and reformation, to those who, without such opportunity, would persevere in their headlong course, bringing themselves to ruin here, if not to ruin hereafter, and dragging down others, and those others sinless and unoffending, to misery, poverty, and sorrow. He ventured to say that if the people of England, Ireland, and Scotland were polled in references to this proposal, their voice would be almost unanimous in favour of that Bill—that was, its main provision and principle. To hon. Gentlemen who were so solicitous for the liberty of the subject as to regard that Bill with disfavour, he said—by all means and by every possible precaution guard the liberty of the subject, and protect it from all undue encroachment; but do not refuse to the weak and infatuated victim of folly the chance of reformation, but, above all, do not refuse protection to those who are at the mercy of one of the most dangerous enemies to society, the habitual drunkard.
  COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, he entirely agreed with his right hon. Friend the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley). They were not to be led away by feeling, and must take the common-sense view of that matter. The question was, whether such a Bill could fairly and honestly work in the interests of the country? He had seen a great deal of drunkenness, and was most anxious to put a stop to it; but his belief was that drunkenness was decidedly on the decrease, and that was nowhere more apparent than in the ranks of the Army. The hon. Mover (Mr. Dalrymple) deserved every credit for his intentions, which, no doubt, were most sincere; but he thought means must be adopted to give effect to them very different from those provided by that Bill. He therefore ventured to hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department would speak in no uncertain tone, but say decidedly that he opposed it. At any rate, he felt it his duty to move that it be read a second time that day three months. He thought the measure a most dangerous one to put in any man's hands. Nothing was more likely than that the measure would be put in force in some of those unfortunate
  1518
  and miserable squabbles which often arose in families, where the wife said the husband had squandered her property and totally neglected his family, and he would be locked up as a lunatic in one of the asylums provided by this Bill. It would, moreover, chiefly affect the humbler class; for means would be found for preventing people of the upper class from being locked up. The measure was a very crude one, and it was too late in the Session to attempt to amend it in Committee.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."—(Colonel Barttelot.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  MR. T. E. SMITHsaid, the measure would impose a heavy expense upon the ratepayers, without producing any commensurate advantage. While in New York last year he had inspected the large institution for the reformation of habitual drunkards, which had been established there partly at the expense of a number of philanthropic persons and partly by State contribution, and he learned from its manager that the practical results had been most disappointing in every way. Not less than 80 per cent of those who had been discharged were returned for a second imprisonment. These institutions only existed where the prohibitory liquor law was practically inoperative. Having signally failed in every attempt to reduce the amount of temptation to which the people were exposed at every step by the multiplicity of publichouses, it was inopportune now to take tip a new scheme winch only proposed to deal with habitual and hopeless drunkards, and the success of which, in the only case where it had been employed, had produced such limited results.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he would support the second reading, but he certainly should not do so if he thought there was any chance of passing the Bill during the present Session. He hoped the hon. Mover (Mr. Dalrymple) would bring forward the measure in a less inchoate state next Session, and that it would then be referred to a Select Committee, in order that some good might be effected in removing some of

  1519
  the many objections with which it might be said the measure bristled.
  MR. M'LARENsaid, two errors had been made by the opponents of that Bill; one set of hon. Gentlemen seemed to think that it was a measure for the repression of drunkenness, while others thought that it was a Bill of Pains and Penalties for the punishment of drunkenness. Now, neither of these suppositions was correct. The Bill was neither for the one object nor the other. The Bill was simply to place under restraint habitual drunkards. Everyone knew that there was a class of people, composed of women as well as men, who were utterly unable to restrain themselves and avoid the snares of drunkenness. Many of those habitual drunkards knew that they could not restrain themselves, and would be glad of some such Bill as that, and, so far from its being a reflection upon families, it was just the thing the families of habitual drunkards were in favour of. It had been said that the present law was quite sufficient to cause the incarceration of any drunkard who got into a state of imbecility. But the object of that Bill was to prevent these people from ever getting into niter imbecility. No doubt the law of lunacy would meet the case of imbeciles, but that Bill was to prevent people from becoming imbeciles. Under this existing law no medical man could grant a certificate for the confinement of a drunkard unless that drunkard was insane. He had the honour to represent a city which was prominently one of medical men. Both he and his hon. Colleague had presented Petitions to the House, signed by nearly every medical man in Edinburgh, in favour of that Bill. These gentlemen had every means of knowing the distress and ruin which followed to the families of habitual drunkards, and they were therefore in favour of some law by means of which these people could be placed under restraint for a certain period, in order to cure them and make them useful members of society. In Scotland, persons of that description were sent to a small island in Lochlomond, and there kept under restraint. There was no legal warrant for sending them there, but the most beneficial results had been proved to result from what had been done in that description. If they could legalize something of that kind, he was quite
  1520
  convinced the most beneficial results would follow. He lately attended a meeting of an institution supported voluntarily for this purpose, and it was stated by the manager that very great good had been done, though they had not the power to keep persons any longer than they desired to remain. If they had the power to detain them until they were perfectly cured, no doubt additional benefits would be the result. Some hon. Gentlemen had alleged that that Bill, if passed, would be found unworkable. That criticism he did not believe to be just. The 1st clause of the Bill said—
  "That any person who, by reason of frequent excessive or constant use of intoxicating liquors, is incapable of self control, or dangerous to himself or others, or incapable of proper attention to and care of his affairs and family, shall be deemed an habitual drunkard and of unsound mind."
  Now, if the last word, "or," was made into the word "and," half the criticisms which had been passed as to the measure being unworkable would vanish. The 6th clause of the Bill said—
  "Upon the request of a near relation, friend, or guardian, any person affected in the manner set forth in the 1st section of this Act may be admitted into any such reformatory, sanitarium, or refuge, upon the production of certificates signed by two duly qualified medical practitioners, and countersigned by a magistrate, and in Scotland by a sheriff or sheriff-substitute acting in the district in which the party lives, and upon the affidavit or sworn declaration of some credible witness other than the applicant, stating that the party is an habitual drunkard, and either dangerous or incapable, as before described."
  The alteration which he would suggest in this clause was that they should dispense with the certificate, and cause the matter to be substantiated by witnesses in open Court. He believed that the Bill, with these slight alterations, would be found to work; and, as he cordially approved of its principle, he should support the second reading.
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, he should oppose the Bill with a certain amount of regret, because the way in which it was proposed to deal with the class affected was not practical, and was not likely to lead to the desired results. He would not have opposed it had it been based on the principle of dealing with the drunkard as a criminal, which must be done in a licensing or some other Bill; for habitual drunkards rendered themselves liable to be placed under restraint on public

  1521
  grounds. That Bill, however, did not deal with those who were brought as offenders before a public Court, but with those who were anxious to be taken care of, or whose friends wished them to be controlled. It would be no great improvement of the 6th clause to require two affidavits, for the principle on which the clause was founded was antagonistic to public feeling. He hoped hon. Members would not act on the view of public duty propounded by the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Portsmouth, and approve the Bill merely because they accepted the principle, while they objected to the way in which it was applied. This was not a practicable measure, and therefore he could not, because he endorsed the principle, assent to the second reading.
  MR. BRUCEsaid, that when the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Dalrymple) brought the matter forward two years ago, he (Mr. Bruce) suggested the difficulties by which it was surrounded, and recommended the hon. Member to test his opinions by introducing a measure, which the hon. Member had gallantly done, and had thus redeemed the undertaking he then gave. He agreed with the last speaker in dissenting from the view of the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth (Sir James Elphinstone), that hon. Members ought to support a Bill because they approved of the principle, while they objected to the details. It was not because he disagreed with the principle of the Bill—it was not that he thought measures ought not to be taken against those who were continually drunken, or that he thought it might not be possible to apply to them, carefully and cautiously, some of the principles they had adopted with respect to lunatics, that he opposed that Bill; but he opposed it because, as the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth said, it bristled with objections, and it was not one that the House could wisely accept. The hon. Member for Bath, who had this matter so much at heart, and who had treated it with so much ability and moderation, would have improved his prospect of ultimate success if he had begun by moving for a Select Committee to inquire into the general subject, and particularly with what success the policy he proposed had been carried out in other countries. It was obvious that the Bill
  1522
  proposed a great infringement of individual liberty, which ought not to be sanctioned without the fullest inquiry. Conflicting statements had been made about the experiments tried abroad, and before they embarked in legislation of this character, they ought to know something more of the lessons to be derived from their experience. The first great difficulty of the measure was the definition of the habitual drunkard, and the second was the practical question, whether there was any treatment which gave a fair hope that those persons could be reclaimed. It was obvious that if a man were denied liquor he would be sober, and that in that respect drunkards differed from the insane, whose mental disorder was continuous, irrespective of such interference. Whether a man who had been a drunkard would continue to abstain after his forced abstinence depended upon the power of his will, and that no one could test. He did not look upon the Bill as one to repress drunkenness; it would have an infinitesimal effect in that direction, as it would provide for the treatment of a very limited number of individuals. Then, again, it was proposed that a person might be shut up under that Bill without having been previously convicted of being drunk and disorderly, which he thought was a very grave power to intrust to any authority in the irresponsible and vague manner enacted in that Bill. Another objectionable result was, that there could be convictions in those parts of the country where there were reformatories, and not in parts where there were none; and persons might be confined for a period not exceeding 12 months; and that was supplemented by the provision that, under certain circumstances, a Justice of the Peace might order a further detention for six months. It was said that persons confined under that Bill would have all the protection that those confined under the Lunacy Act had in the way of visitation and otherwise; but how could a Lunacy Commissioner decide whether a man who had been by force kept from drink for a time was cured or not; and, if he could not decide that, what would be the value of a Commissioner's visit? He would suggest that the hon. Member in charge of the Bill should not press the second reading; but that at the commencement of next Session he should move for a Select

  1523
  Committee to inquire into the subject. There was no hem. Member of the House who did not feel dissatisfaction with the way in which those drunkards who had rendered themselves amenable to the law were treated now; the fact that nothing was done but to repeat the same punishments was a sufficient condemnation of the law as it stood at present. The difficulties surrounding the question rendered it desirable that they should collect the results of the experience of other countries, and, before they had done that, it would not be safe to pass a measure of that importance.
  MR. REEDsaid, he would recommend the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Dalrymple) to accede to the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, although he thought the hon. Member had been rather hardly dealt with, after complying with the request made to him last year. Still, if he read the Bill a second time, he could not carry it further this year. Every hon. Member sympathized in the good cause he had undertaken, and the majority of those present would no doubt support the principle that the habitual drunkard should be reformed; but on other grounds it would be well to refer the matter to a Select Committee.
  MR. COWPER-TEMPLEsaid, he also hoped that the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Dalrymple) would accept the suggestion made to him by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department. The principle of the Bill, which would be affirmed by a second reading, involved three propositions. First, that an habitual indulgence in excessive drinking weakened self-control, and the direction of conduct to the same extant as the loss of reason, and that drunkards ought to be put under restraints similar to those which were applied to lunatics, who were dangerous to themselves and others; secondly, this state of mental unsoundness constituting danger might be ascertained as well as ordinary forms of lunacy; and the third was, that there was some mode of treatment by which persons placed in reformatories or asylums might be cured of such uncontrollable propensities to irrational drinking. To the first mentioned proposition the House should be prepared to agree, though it was difficult to know when a man
  1524
  after being shut up could be let out with safety; but as to the third, the House was entirely in the dark, for no evidence had been produced that habits could be acquired during a limited incarceration that would overcome the habits of drunkenness when liberty was restored. On that point be hoped the hon. Member would be able to get information next year.
  MR. M'LAGANsaid, that although a difference of opinion had been expressed as to how a measure of that kind should be carried out, no difference of opinion had been expressed as to the existence of an evil which ought to be remedied. Some hon. Members had objected to that Bill on the ground that it went too far, and interfered with the liberty of the subject; while others thought it did not go far enough. He was one of those who held the latter opinion. It would not, for instance, meet such a case as had been related to him, of a man who had been twice confined in a lunatic asylum for insanity produced by delirium tremens, and who was so aware of his propensity that he desired to be kept in the asylum; but as that could not be he was discharged, and soon after died of another attack, leaving his family in poverty. The hon. Member for Edinburgh had suggested the substitution of the word "and" for the word "or;" but he did not think that would meet the difficulty—in fact, it would leave the law exactly as it was at present. An Act had been passed by the Parliament of Quebec in which an habitual drunkard was defined as a person who was a drunkard according to the common report of the neighbourhood. It was also enacted that any Judge of the Superior Courts might, on the petition of a relative, or friend in default of relations, setting forth that a person was squandering and mismanaging his property, placing his family in distress, and endangering his health and life, order a person to manage the affairs of such an individual. No doubt that was very sweeping, and many persons would be apprended under it. The hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) had said better lock up the drink than the persons who got drunk. But the hon. Gentleman only proposed to lock up drink in publichouses and not in private houses. He seemed to forget that most habitual drunkards got

  1525
  drunk in their own houses, and drank after every other reasonable person was in bed. There was another clause in the Quebec Act which was worthy of attention. Any person giving intoxicating drink to an habitual drunkard was liable to a fine of 840, or, in default, three months' imprisonment. That would be an important provision to introduce into the English Bill. He would support the second reading of that Bill, though he hoped the suggestion would be agreed to, that it should be referred to a Select Committee to report on the whole subject.
  MR. CORRANCEsaid, he hoped that the hon. Member in charge of the Bill, who introduced it on the invitation of the Home Secretary, and was now advised to move for a Select Committee, would not withdraw the Bill without a more distinct assurance than he had received of Government assistance and support. Such a Bill was required, because the provisions of the lunacy law were quite inadequate to meet the cases of habitual drunkards.
  MR. D. DALRYMPLEsaid, he would accept without reserve the offer made by the right hon. Gentleman, of a Select Committee to inquire into the facts, without a knowlege of which it was impossible to form a just opinion on what he admitted to be a very difficult question. He did so all the more freely, because, from the strong opinions expressed in favour of the principle of the measure during this discussion, he had good reason to believe that the second reading would have been carried if he had pressed it to a division. If practicable, he should propose the appointment of the Select Committee before the close of this Session, in order that he might save time by simply moving its re-appointment on the re-assembling of Parliament.
  Amendment and Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Bill withdrawn.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION ACT (1870) AMENDMENT BILL— [BILL 67.]
(Mr. Dixon, Mr. Bailey Potter, Mr. Jacob Bright, Mr. Muntz.)
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION ACT (1870) AMENDMENT BILL— [BILL 67.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. DIXON, in rising to move "That the Bill be now read a second
  1526
  time," said, he was fully determined to take the sense of the House upon it, as it embodied a great principle. Although he had no hope of inducing any very considerable number of hon. Members to go into the same lobby with him, yet it would be advantageous to ascertain the sentiments of the House. No doubt it would be urged that they had had only one year's experience of the system of cumulative voting, and that, therefore, it would be premature to discuss an alteration of it; but, on the other hand, he believed the country had already come to a definite conclusion on the subject. He proposed to show—first, that the system did not secure an accurate representation of the opinions of the ratepayers; secondly, that the evils produced outweighed the advantages supposed to be derived from it; and, thirdly, that a much simpler and more satisfactory system might be devised. In illustration of these propositions, he would refer to the case of the recent school board elections at Birmingham, which had not been accurately understood. Although that case furnished an extreme example of the system, yet the evils there produced in an exaggerated form would exist in a modified form wherever the system was brought into operation. In Birmingham there were two great parties, the unsectarian party and the sectarian party, who, in regard to educational matters, were respectively represented by the "League" and the "Union." The Roman Catholics and Wesleyans somewhat disturbed the exact balance of parties; but that circumstance did not deserve much consideration, and, stated broadly, the "League" and "Union" parties corresponded with the Liberal and Conservative parties at elections for Members of Parliament. At the last General Election, the Liberals polled 22,500 and the Conservatives 9,000, the proportion being, therefore, as 5 to 2. In corroboration of that statement he might allude to a proposition made by the denominational party to the leaders of the League party prior to the school board election. They proposed that with the view to avoiding a contest, an arrangement should be come to, under which five members of the board should be nominated by the denominational party and 10 by the League. It turned out, however, that, instead of the Conservatives

  1527
  polling 9,000 votes they polled 10,000; while the Liberals, instead of polling 22,500 votes, as they expected, only polled 19,000, of whom 15,000 were of the unsectarian party. How was that discrepancy to be accounted for? The universal belief of the Liberal party in Birmingham was, that that unexpected result was owing to the fact that all the religious ardour which it was possible to evoke was brought to bear on the election, while the parochial machinery was used on behalf of the supporters of denominational education. On the other hand, the unsectarian party failed in these respects, and in one district found themselves entirely destitute of organization. Then, among the poorer and more ignorant classes, who usually belonged to the Liberal ranks, the system of cumulative voting was not understood, and it was very difficult for them to work it. In many instances, indeed, working men were practically disfranchised in consequence of the introduction of that new and complicated system. The result of the election was that there were 15,000 voters on the side of the unsectarians, 10,000 on the side of the denominationalists, and a little over 3,000 for the Roman Catholics; but, instead of the unsectarian party returning a proportionate number of members to the school board, they returned only six instead of eight, while the denominational party returned eight instead of five, and the Roman Catholics one instead of two. The unsectarian candidates were, without exception, men who had taken a leading part in all the controversies on the subject of education, while the denominational eight had no pre-eminence over them in that respect—one, indeed, being a publican who was never before connected with educational matters in anyway. Thus, the working of the Act was placed in the hands of men who were opposed in some respects to its provisions, the natural consequence being that there had been a want of harmony in the proceedings of the board. It might, perhaps, be urged that all that was very true; but that the Liberal party were greedy in putting forward so many candidates. That, however, was an entirely mistaken view of the case. Previous to the election, the unsectarian party had very good ground for believing that five-sevenths of the electors would be on their side, and they
  1528
  brought forward 15 candidates; but the denominational party, who according to their own showing were only entitled to return five candidates, brought forward eight. Consequently, if the unsectarian party were greedy, their opponents were still more so. The skilful men who had so successfully worked the Parliamentary election under the minority clause were of opinion that 15 candidates ought to be brought forward, and the unfortunate result was due to the badness of the system of cumulative voting, and not to the greed of the unsectarian party. It was said that if that system of voting were abolished, the smaller sects would be unrepresented; but he should like to know what advantage was gained by having one or two Roman Catholics on the London School Board, for example, as on all points at issue between Catholics and Protestants, the former would, of course, be unable to carry out their views, although they might display bad feeling and cause delay in the proceedings? He would now endeavour to show that the evils of the system far outweighed its benefits. In the first place, there was a very great waste of voting power. In the case of Miss Garrett, in London, and of the Roman Catholics at almost every election, twice as many votes were given as were required to attain the object in view. This evil would always prevail, though not, perhaps, to the same extent, and under the Ballot it would probably become exaggerated. It could only be avoided by the adoption of a system of wire-pulling. At the last election for Birmingham it was found that there was a great tendency to tamper with the voting papers. The moment a voting paper was left at the house of a working man the house was entered by an agent of one of the parties, and it often happened that when the working man returned home he found that his wife had been induced to allow the paper to be filled up. A considerable number of working men had thus lost their votes, because they were unable to procure fresh papers. Again, it was so difficult to fill up a voting paper containing the names of 30 candidates that persons who were unable to read were virtually disfranchised. At the late school board elections the question raised was not whether such and such candidates were the best men with reference solely to education,

  1529
  but whether they belonged to one or other denomination. The religions and sectarian clement was brought in, and almost every Member was returned on account not of his educational, but of his religious qualifications. The result was, that in most of the places where a contest had occurred Roman Catholics, Churchmen, and Nonconformists were placed in a position of antagonism to one another. The Times of that day, speaking of himself, said—
  "He may think it not desirable that the educational council of a community should gather together in the exact proportions of their strength the best friends of education within it."
  The fact, however, was that it was because he desired this that he objected to the cumulative system; but he was certainly not in favour of constant strife on the subject of religion. The disestablishment of the English Church was a subject which would be kept permanently before the country, and he would remind hon. Members opposite that wherever a school board was established the Churchmen would, under the cumulative system, be arrayed on one side and the Nonconformists on the other; so that in every part of the country there would be a centre of agitation and opposition to Church institutions that would hasten the great catastrophe which hon. Gentlemen opposite so much dreaded. In substitution of the cumulative vote he would propose the system almost universally adopted at municipal elections. Let every school district be so divided that there should be either three members of the board or multiples of three, and let one of each three members go out annually, so that there would be in each section of the district an election every year for one member, and for one member only. The result would be that that one member of the board would be elected by a majority of the voters. In the case of Town Councils this system had been found to work very well indeed. ["No, no!] At all events, he was not aware that there were differences of opinion on that subject. In conclusion, he thought it was the duty of those who entertained the same opinions as he did to elicit the sentiments of the House of Commons on the subjects to which he had adverted. When he and his friends had ascertained accurately what their position was, they would go on working under the present
  1530
  system, which they knew had been approved by a large majority of the House. He did not wish to offer a factious opposition to a law passed by the House of Commons; but he should not give up the hope—especially as he might count on the support of his hon. Colleague (Mr. Bright), who would probably resume his seat in that House next Session—that the day was not far distant when the people of England would decide in favour of the old plan of representation by majorities, and sweep away all those philosophical excrescences and innovations. In conclusion, the hon. Member moved the second reading of the Bill.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr, Dixon.)
  MR. COLLINS, in moving "That the Bill be read a second time upon this day three months" said, the real issue was whether the majority were to be represented alone, or whether different sections of the community ought to be represented also. He had always advocated the principle of representation of minorities in that House; but he thought the application of the principle to school boards was still more advisable than to the election of Members of the House of Commons, for while hon. Members represented the whole of the people; of the country as well as their own constituencies, thereby indirectly representing minorities, on the other hand, a school board was an autonomy, and had a little Parliament of its own. Therefore, if there were no cumulative vote, the effect would be that the dominant section, and not the whole community, would secure the representation. In that House there might be a minority on the Government side agreeing with a majority on the Opposition; the consequence of which would be a majority of the whole House, and not merely of the Government. The principle of representation by a dominant majority eliminated out of its purview the whole of the rights and feelings of the minority; and that could hardly be regarded as a wholesome Liberal principle. The hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Dixon) argued that sectarian feelings were excited by the operation of the present system; but those whom the hon. Gentleman stigmatized as candidates for the Church party were mainly supported,

  1531
  not because they were members of the so-called Church party, but because they had proved themselves to be zealous friends of education. It was the hon. Gentleman who placed such men on a sectarian platform. The Elementary Education Act of last year was passed for the purpose of supplementing the existing system, by making use of every school it could, and only where a school was really needed to direct one to be built there. The feeling, at the time of the passing of the Act, was not to get rid of denominational schools bit by bit, but it was rather in favour of them, and he held that the large majority of the people were disposed to give fair play to such schools, especially to those which were in the hands of voluntary supporters. With regard to the election of Town Councillors upon the system applauded by the hon. Gentleman opposite the Member for Birmingham, his experience led him to believe that it did not always work satisfactorily, since it did not succeed in giving that representation which ought to be a miniature of the whole people, and not merely a picture of a section. If a parent wished his child to be brought up in a religious atmosphere, why should he not do so? If he wanted his child to be grounded in secular education only, why should not his wishes be carried out? All were on a level in that respect. If the majority of the ratepayers desired a secular education only they had the right to exclude from board schools all religion whatsoever. But to whom did they owe the present state of education but to people who were embued with religious feelings, chiefly members of the Church of England, but with a sprinkling of Wesleyans, Roman Catholics, and others? He opposed that measure on the same ground that he supported the principle of the representation of all sections of the people in that House. The school board ought to be formed so as to be a miniature picture of all classes of ratepayers. Dividing Birmingham into wards, a Roman Catholic could not be elected; but by taking the votes altogether every party might secure the return of a candidate. For these reasons he must move the rejection of the Bill.
  LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH, in rising to second the Amendment, said, he had listened to much of the speech
  1532
  of his hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham (Mr. Dixon) who had charge of this Bill with surprise. His hon. Friend's proposal, if carried, would have the effect of electing to each school board men who were of one opinion. If at the last General Election no hon. Members had been returned representing Conservative opinions, hon. Members sitting on the Government benches would have been entirely unchecked by any wholesome criticism, and in all probability would have committed errors so numerous and grave that at the next Election they would, in a body, have given way to hon. Gentlemen opposite, who would be equally without control until another Election. Not only would the effect of his hon. Friend's proposal be analogous, but the proceedings of his hon. Friend and of the Birmingham League had proved that if they had got the power into their hands they would not have failed to use it. His hon. Friend not only argued that it could be no pleasure to a minority to be represented, inasmuch as they must be always beaten, but went even further, and appeared to think that a majority had grave cause for dissatisfaction if their opponents could be heard. Throughout his speech his hon. Friend had argued as if the Liberal party and the Birmingham League were synonymous. At the school board election the Birmingham League polled a little over 14,000 votes, or about one-half of the votes given; but they insisted as far as they could, that they should monopolize the representation on the board. His hon. Friend's argument was that minorities could have no influence, as they were certain to be beaten, a process never attended with any satisfaction. But that the opinions of minorities were not without their influence it would be easy to prove. Last year his hon. Friend was the able advocate of compulsory attendance at schools. In his desire to secure that result he (Lord Frederick Cavendish) for one, heartily wished him success; but the practical difficulties in the way were so great that it was thought better to leave the matter to the decision of the localities themselves. Nevertheless, although in the school board elections the League had been generally defeated, the principle had been adopted in the school boards in nearly every important town in the kingdom. That fact in itself was sufficient to show that a minority, if they

  1533
  had sound argument in favour of the cause they desired to recommend, would see their efforts crowned with success, and that, too, without having to wait for it any great length of time. The principle of compulsory attendance adopted by the boards as at present constituted, had commanded a cheerful obedience; but that obedience would not, he believed, have been cheerfully given if none but members of the Birmingham League had been represented on the school boards. His hon. Friend had stated that, owing to the complexity of the present system, a large proportion of the electors did not record their votes, but out of the 30,000 electors who voted at the last Parliamentary Election for Birmingham over 29,000 voted at the election for the school boards. [Mr. Dixox: The constituency has increased since.] In Greenwich, Chelsea, and Lambeth a larger number voted for the school boards than at the election of Members of Parliament. Then they were told that the present plan gave undue power to party organization, but, as the League candidates at the last election had each polled between 13,000 and 16,000 votes, that result was sufficient to show that the League had little to regret in the way of organization, and that but few of the votes of their supporters had been squandered. Finally, his hon. Friend had urged that the present system involved a great waste of voting power, but at Manchester, where 15 members were to be elected out of 44 candidates, the successful candidates secured 330,000 out of 399,000 votes. At Sheffield, with 54 candidates, the successful 15 polled two-thirds of all the votes recorded; and at Lambeth something like the same proportion was maintained. Looking at the results of the Act of last year, they might, he believed, say that the school boards would fairly compare with any other of their local bodies, and their quiet, practical, harmonious working afforded a fair prospect of their being able to remove the reproach, which had hitherto been too true, that they were the worst educated nation in the world.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."—(Mr. Collins.)
  MR. MORRISON, as a Member of the National Education League, said, he
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  desired to oppose the Bill before the House. Of that opposition his hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham (Mr. Dixon) had no reason to complain. His hon. Friend, and those who acted with him, had accepted the adhesions and subscriptions of many Radicals, like himself, who had always advocated a system of proportional representation, and had never concealed their opinions on that point. When, therefore, his hon. Friend and the Council of the League proposed to repudiate the cumulative vote, because it had failed at Birmingham, he entirely abjured his hon. Friend's leadership for the time being. That taxation and representation should go together was, he believed, an axiom equally dear both to himself and to his hon. Friend; but unless there were representatives of all parties on the school boards, to determine the extent and nature of the taxation to be imposed, that axiom was violated. Parliament last year, in dealing with the subject, had determined upon relegating to the educational bodies themselves the settlement of the various educational difficulties. That settlement had been aided by the very system of which his hon. Friend complained. Claiming as he did freedom for the religious opinions of all his fellow-countrymen, he could not but feel that under such a proposal as that now made by his hon. Friend, not a single Roman Catholic would have stood a chance of being elected to a school board in that country. Such elections he believed to be necessary for the protection of his Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, because he believed the consciense clause was of very little use, unless there was some watch-dog always ready to see it enforced. Again, without the cumulative vote, he believed it would be impossible for any working man to secure a seat at one of these boards, and even with that vote but one such had been elected in London. The effect of the Bill would be to return absolute majorities, destroy discussion, and make opposition valueless. Everyone knew that a good opposition was an admirable thing for the country, seeing that it prevented the introduction of immature measures, and made persons cautious in the expression of opinions. Accepting the axiom that the majority should govern, he still desired to see minorities represented; if the old system had prevailed

  1535
  the late election for the school board would have resulted in a fight between Liberals and Conservatives, or between Nonconformists and Churchmen; and it would have been impossible to secure the election of a single lady, though all must admit their presence on the boards was in many cases an element of great strength. He could not, in answer to the practical difficulty suggested by his hon. Friend, submit that cumulative voting was entirely satisfactory. There was, for instance, an enormous waste of votes in Marylebone to secure the return of Mrs. Anderson; but that defect could be cured by some system of preferential voting. He would not, however, detain the House upon that point, as he proposed introducing the subject on some future occasion.
  MR. VERNON HARCOURT, said, he should vote for the Bill, because it raised the question of proportional representation. He did not wonder that the hon. Member for Boston (Mr. Collins) and the noble Lord the Member for the Northern Division of the West Riding of Yorkshire (Lord Frederick Cavendish), opposed the Bill, because they were the advocates of proportional representation. But that principle had never been adopted by the Liberal party. It had been denounced by the Prime Minister, by the right hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright), by the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), and by all the most experienced statesmen in the House; and he, for his part, had not advanced so far as to adopt the new fangled system which was proposed as a substitute for the old clumsy system of election by majorities. He had noticed the hon. Member for Boston sitting on the Liberal side of the House below the gangway the other night, and could not help thinking he had better take his seat there continually as the leader of the philosophical Liberals. Propositions from that party had been numerous of late. Female suffrage, minority votes, payment of Members, and payment of election expenses out of rates, had been proposed by it. But the cause of Liberalism seemed to be going in a direction which was not desirable in the estimation of some; the arrangement it was proposed to put an end to had been carried by a minority of the Liberals combined with the majority of the Conservatives. Already
  1536
  that combination had saddled the country with three-cornered constituencies, and now the hon. Member for Boston had announced his intention to attempt to introduce the system into the municipal elections by means of the Bill now going through the House, with the avowed object of overthrowing the unjust preponderance of Liberals in the municipalities of the country. The principle that representation should go with taxation was older than the assertion in favour of minority representation; their ancestors had always been content with the old clumsy system of representation by majorities, and, believing proportional representation was contrary to the habits and sentiments of the people, he (Mr. Harcourt) promised it continual opposition.
  MR. MELLYsaid, he must, having taken part in school board elections, express his belief that there never was a system better calculated to bring together in one room the best men of each town to constitute a school board, and he therefore hoped that the Bill would be rejected. A school board was not only a deliberative assembly, but an assembly which had permissive power to make laws for the purpose of carrying out the wishes of the population over whom it was placed. In his opinion all parties ought to be represented on such boards, and thus secure the sympathy of all sects and denominations. The little dissatisfaction which had resulted from the late school board election had been occasioned not by the system of cumulative voting, but by divisions in the parties to whom seats had been lost.
  MR. AUBERON HERBERTsaid, he hoped that when the hon and learned Member for Oxford (Mr. V. Harcourt) offered to the hon. Member for Boston (Mr. Collins) the leadership of the philosophical Liberals there was no spretœ injuria formœ which led him to do so. The hon. Member for Birmingham had discovered no inconveniences resulting from this new mode of voting which had not been expected. The way to meet the waste of votes was to go further and introduce a system of preferential voting. Wire-pulling might be objectionable, but it was almost a necessary consequence of the existence of great public interest in a subject. Surely the hon. Member did not want to get boards formed of persons having

  1537
  identical opinions, and at the same time do great injustice. If he was unrepresented on the school board, and he was compelled to send his children to a school to be educated on a system he disapproved, it was no satisfaction to him to know that another man in the next district was in precisely the same situation. Though an earnest advocate for State education, he always allowed it was a defective remedy for a bad state of things, for if parents were sensible of their responsibilities school boards would be unnecessary. He advocated the continuance of the present system on grounds of tolerance and forbearance. The danger of the future was that one party should get the government into its hands without check and use it for themselves without regard to the rights of the rest of the community. Nothing could save the country from that danger but the encouragement of a general feeling among the people that government must be carried on in the interest of all.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, he wished to look at the matter in a practical point of view. One remarkable and almost universal result of the cumulative vote was the return of persons of different creeds and classes who had shown an interest in the work of education. The candidates generally who had been rejected were theorists, and not practical men. The new system had brought together great numbers of men of practical experience, who were a true representative of every class and every denomination in each locality. He had carefully watched the proceedings of the London Board, having the honour of being a member of that body, and he was convinced that the result of the elections had been to bring together a mixture of opinions which had been productive of a wonderful feeling of toleration and harmony, and he might safely say that the spirit of religious dissension had hardly shown itself at their meetings. That could only have been brought about by the system of cumulative voting, and he believed that when the time arrived to solve the difficult problem of compelling the attendance of children at schools the mixed representation would have a very salutary effect. He thought it very objectionable, after only one year's experience, to change a system of voting which had produced such beneficial results, and
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  that it ought not to be tampered with until it had had a fair trial.
  MR. BAINESsaid, he thought it exceedingly desirable that all political parties and all religious sects should be fairly represented on the school boards, and could not consent to the adoption of any system which would establish monopolies in different parts of the kingdom. The present system had worked most satisfactorily in Leeds. No doubt the majority of the board consisted of Nonconformists, there being nine members of that body against six Churchmen. There were also eight Liberals against seven Conservatives. There would have been a greater preponderance of the Nonconformist and Liberal element had it not been for the attempt to obtain rather more than it was judicious to do. If there had been a great controlling majority of Nonconformists in Leeds, what would have been the result? The members of the Church of England had raised funds for the education of no less than 19,000 children, and it would have been almost impossible to have carried on the education system if the members of the Church had been excluded from the school board. In the small towns and villages the result might be different, where the majority were Churchmen and Conservatives. But he thought it would be unjust to establish a monopoly in any part of the country, and trusted that the system which had proved so successful would still be continued.
  MR. WINTERBOTHAM, in the unavoidable absence of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council, stated that he had not the less hesitation in expressing his right hon. Friend's sentiments disapproving the Bill, because it happened that that was the only question upon which he (Mr. Winterbotham) thoroughly agreed with him last year. He did so, not because the cumulative vote was philosophical, whatever that might mean, but because it was just. Being so, it had grown in favour with the country, and the experience of the school board election had settled the matter finally. It had produced the end desired, and none of the evils feared. It signally succeeded in Birmingham in securing the just proportion of representation, and preventing a monopoly of representation by one party, as it always should do; and although a staunch leaguer and secularist

  1539
  in education, he could not help saying that the rebuke his friends in Birmingham had received was thoroughly well deserved.
  Question, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.
  Words added.
  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Bill put off for three months.

LOCAL AND PERSONAL ACTS (IRELAND) BILL.— [BILL 26.]—SECOND READING.
(Mr. Heron, Mr. Pim, Mr. Bagwell.)
Order for Second Reading read.
MR. HERON, in moving "That the Bill be now read a second time" said, the object of it was to allow all local and personal Acts to be dealt with in their respective localities in Ireland, instead of bringing them before Committees of Parliament. The House of Commons had from time to time given up great portions of its jurisdiction, and had recently parted with it in election matters, and he proposed the establishment of machinery similar to that of the Election Judges, which should virtually have the jurisdiction now exercised by Committees. That measure was one vitally affecting the commercial interests of Ireland, and, in now moving its second reading, he trusted that its opponents would allow the division upon it to be taken that afternoon.
MR. SMYTH, in rising to second the Motion of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Tipperary County (Mr. Heron), said, he hoped he should receive the kind indulgence of the House, in addressing it for the first time as the Representative of a great and virtuous constituency, the liberty of every man among whom was at that moment at the mercy of any policeman who chose to suspect him. He wished to take advantage of that opportunity to call attention to the larger question of self-government for Ireland, and he took that course with entire respect for the House, and in discharge of what he deemed to be his duty both to his constituents and to his country. The feudal barons who went from England to settle in Ireland, in the reign of Henry II., carried with them such notions of political liberty as at that time prevailed in England, and attempted to form a Constitution for Ireland on a
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similar basis to the one existing in the country they had just left. Down to the time of Henry VII. the Irish Parliament, such as it was, with occasional interruptions on the part of England, exercised the right of legislating in the same manner as in this country; but a law then passed, and which was afterwards enlarged and explained reversed the course of Irish legislation, and the Irish Lords and Commons were deprived of the right of framing and proposing Bills. According to the construction of these statutes a Bill had first of all to be framed by the Deputy and Council of Ireland, then transmitted to the King and Council of England, and then presented to the Irish Parliament, to which was left simply the privilege of agreeing to the whole Bill, or of rejecting it. However degrading to the character of a people was such a law, it still represented the idea of a distinct power legislating for a distinct country—claimed as a right, not held by mere sufferance. By the Act passed in 1719, the 6 George I., it was declared and enacted that the British Parliament had, and of right ought to have, full power and authority to make laws and statutes of sufficient force and validity to bind the kingdom and people of Ireland. That Act naturally created great discontent among the Parliament and people of Ireland, and they protested against that claim on the part of the English Parliament as an usurpation. The Act of 6 George I. was repealed by the 22 George III., c. 52, and by a subsequent Act, the 23 George III., c. 28, the English Parliament renounced for ever the right to bind Ireland by its laws, and recognized its right to have its laws passed by its own Parliament, with the assent of the Sovereign. The House would perceive from this brief resumé that in the demand which the people of Ireland now made for a distinct Legislature they were supported by precedent and by charter. Even if it were not so, they could appeal to principle, and remind this great English nation that their Revolution of 1688 derived its vindication from the principle that the will of the people was the only rightful foundation of government, as had been explained by Locke. It would not be denied that the Union was carried by iniquitous means against the wishes of the Irish people, and that that Parliament did not rule Ireland with the

1541
consent of that country. From the year 1800 down to the present time the repeal of the Union had been the one object, filling the measure of every patriot heart. In 1830, Mr. O'Connell proclaimed the desire for the repeal of the Union as the first utterance of the emancipated Catholics.
MR. SPEAKER: I have been very unwilling to interrupt the hon. Member for Westmeath, and I hope he will think I have permitted him able opportunity of expressing his opinion; but I must invite his attention to a Rule of this House, that he must speak to the question now before us, which is a question quite different from that which has been occupying him thus far. I beg now that he will speak to the question immediately before the House.
MR. SMYTHresumed, and said he hoped the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair and the House would understand that he had not intentionally ignored the Rules of the House. He had wished to support the Bill of his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Heron), and, at the same time, he had been anxious to call attention to the larger question which, he thought, was connected with it. He was disposed to give all due credit to the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, who had had the courage to grapple with this great difficulty; but he had felt it his duty, in his first appearance in that Parliament, to call attention to the obvious fact that the difficulty became day by day more and more of an impossibility. He bowed to the decision which had been given by the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair; but there was one further remark which he wished to make, and that was, that he believed the change now proposed could be effected without derogating from the authority or tarnishing in any degree the splendour of the Crown. Whether it should be accomplished by a simple repeal of the Union, or by a federal arrangement, was immaterial, provided that to Irish hands should be exclusively intrusted the management of Irish affairs. He recollected reading with pleasure the rebuke administered by the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) to some Irish gentlemen who spoke of Ireland as a conquered country. But why was Ireland ruled as a conquered country, and in the spirit of conquest? He himself denied the fact of the conquest,
1542
and if that fact were proved he would deny that conquest gave any title to allegiance. To an assumed right of conquest he would oppose the rights of man, and to an assumed fact of conquest he would oppose the Irish Act of the 33rd year of Henry VIII., and the first Article of the impeachment of Lord Strafford—
MR. SPEAKER: The House has listened with attention to the expressions of opinion of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Westmeath; but the Rules of the House cannot be extended too far, and the hon. Member at present has not addressed a single observation to the subject now before the House. Should he continue his remarks, I must request that he will now address himself to that subject.
MR. SMYTHsaid, he bowed with entire respect to the decision of the right hon. Gentleman, and he would close his remarks by expressing a hope that the Bill of his hon. and learned Friend would be passed into law.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Heron.)
MR. VANCEsaid, he must compliment the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. Smyth) on the sincerity with which he had expressed the views he was sent there to advocate, but he thought the hon. Gentleman ought to have brought forward a formal Motion for the repeal of the Union, instead of declaring his views on that question in a Bill of that character. The constituents of the hon. Member for Tipperary would not be satisfied with the homœopathic dose of home rule contained in that Bill. They wanted a great deal more, and would believe that if that Bill passed it would postpone the consideration of the question which the hon. Member for Westmeath was so anxious to bring before the House. ["Question!] He was speaking to the question raised by the hon. Member for Westmeath, and his own opinion was that "home rule" in Ireland would prove to be "Rome rule." If he (Mr. Vance) had been a Member of the Irish Parliament, he should have voted against the Union, but—
SIR JOHN GRAYrose to Order. He submitted that if it was not competent for an Irish Member to advocate the

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right of his country to home rule, it was not competent for another hon. Gentleman to advocate the opposite view.
MR. SPEAKERthought the hon. Gentleman the Member for Armagh was out of Order.
MR. VANCEconcluded by saying that he hoped the Bill would not be passed now, but that the whole subject might be fully and impartially considered before a Committee next Session.
SIR JOHN ESMONDEsaid, he was strongly opposed to the Bill, which seemed to have for its object the creation of new work for the Irish Judges. The legal profession in Ireland was already too prominent, and excluded the great body of the people, and that exclusion and the power of the legal profession would only be increased by that Bill.
MR. BOUVERIE MR. BOUVERIE moved the Adjournment of the Debate.
Motion agreed to.
Debate adjourned till Wednesday, 9th August.

POOR RATE ASSESSMENT AND COLLECTION ACT (1869) AMENDMENT BILL.
On Motion of Mr. HENDERSON, Bill to amend the Poor Rate Assessment and Collection Act, 1869, and to explain the term "dwelling house" in relation to certain franchises, ordered to be brought in by Mr. HENDERSON, Ml". CRAWFORD, Mr. EUSTACE SMITH, and Mr. BOWRING.
Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 241.]

IRISH CHURCH ACT (1869) AMENDMENT BILL.
On Motion of Mr. HERON, Bill to amend the Thirty-second Section of "The Irish Church Act, 1869," ordered to be brought in by Mr. HERON and Mr. BAGWELL.
Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 244.]

MAYNOOTH COLLEGE BILL.
On Motion of The Marquess of HARTINGTON, Bill to amend the Acts relating to the College of Maynooth, ordered to be brought in by The Marquess of HARTINGTON and Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL for IRELAND.
Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 243.]
And it being Six of the clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House till Tomorrow, without putting the Question.