Sitting of 10 May 1870

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Conventual and Monastic Institutions, nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee—Report—Wine and Beerhouse Act (1869) Amendment* [97–124]; Tramways (re-comm.)* [113].
Report—Burials* [8–123].
Considered as amended—Railways (Powers and Construction)* [76].

CIVIL SERVICE PENSIONS.—QUESTION.
MR. MONKsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether there is any objection to the provisions of the Pensions Commutation Act (1869), being extended to the Civil Service generally?
MR. STANSFELDsaid, in reply, that the Act referred to in the Question of the hon. Member was purposely restricted to officers in the Army and Navy, and clerks in the War Office and Admiralty. The object was to alleviate the hardships which might occur in consequence of the reductions contemplated, and which had taken place in those establishments. The Government were not prepared at this moment to admit that it was advisable to extend the Act to the Civil Service generally. On the contrary, they thought it advisable to wait and see how the Act worked in these two great Departments before taking any further steps in the matter.

REDUCTION OF LIGHT DUES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GRAVESsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade, Whether it is true that the Board of Trade has decided on reducing the "light dues" now levied on shipping; and, if so, if he will state the extent and nature of the proposed reduction?
  MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE: In reply, Sir, to the hon. Member for Liverpool, I have to state that, in consequence of the flourishing state of the Mercantile Marine Fund, due mainly to the increase of shipping entering our ports, it is found possible to make considerable reductions of the light dues. Instead, however, of making a reduction pro ratâ over all the dues, it is thought better to take this opportunity of getting rid of certain anomalies and inequalities which have been much complained of, and in

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  respect of which, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade promised last year that inquiry should be made with a view to their removal. It is proposed, then, to make the following reductions:—1. Steamers making direct voyages from the East Coast to the North of Europe will be relieved from payment in respect of a certain number of lights; by this a relief will be given to the extent of about £11,300 per annum. 2. Vessels trading between ports in the United Kingdom and ports in Europe—except the Mediterranean—will in future be called upon to pay dues once only, out and home. The annual reduction in this case will probably be £21,229. 3. There will be a reduction of dues charged in respect of the "Smalls" and "Skerries" Lights from 1d. to ¾d., subject to the usual abatement. This will give relief to the extent of £ 13,300. 4. Vessels calling for orders at our ports and proceeding thence to foreign ports will in future be exempt from tolls after leaving the port of call. This will cause a reduction of £8,000. In all, the reductions will amount to about £53,800. They will, however, not come into operation till the 1st of October.
  MR. GRAVESsaid, he should like to know whether these reductions would be effected without any curtailment of the expenditure necessary for new works?
  MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE: These reductions will not at all affect the expenditure for new works. It may be convenient that I should state that the expenditure on new works during the present year will be £79,798. For the year 1869 it was £66,900, and for 1868 £47,000. It will be seen, therefore, that the expenditure during the current year will, notwithstanding the reductions, be greater than during either of the past two years. The estimated expenditure during the year 1871 on works now in progress will be £.54,000.

THREATENED OUTRAGE IN MANCHESTER.—QUESTION.
MR. GILPINsaid, he must preface the Question of which he had given Notice by stating that the hon. Member for Manchester (Sir Thomas Bazley) had informed him that the gentleman who was threatened with this outrage bore the highest character; and, in justice to the
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police, he was bound to say that since he had come to the House he had received a telegram to the effect that the police of Manchester had re-considered their determination, and ostensibly offered Mr. Johnson protection; but the arrangements gave him no protection whatever, and were perfectly useless to him. He therefore would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been called to a statement in "The Times" newspaper that a manufacturer at Manchester is unable to sleep in his own house, or to let it be publicly known where he resides, for fear of outrage on the part of workmen of a trades union; that the said gentleman has been refused the protection of the Manchester Police, except on the payment of 8d. per hour for each man; and, if he can state if such report be correct; and, if so, if the Government intend to take any steps to put a stop to such a state of things?
MR. BRUCE: Sir, I have read the report in The Times; but I am unable to say whether the facts quoted by the hon. Member are correct or not. I have been in communication with the Manchester magistrates and the local authorities generally upon this subject. It appears that two outrages were committed on the same night, one being an attempt to burn a stackyard of the gentleman referred to within the borough of Manchester, and the other an attempt upon his life outside the borough. I presume, therefore, the application for personal protection would have been made, not to the borough police, but to the police of the county in which the house stood. Application has been made to me by the magistrates to join them in offering a reward for the discovery of the offenders; they propose to offer a reward of £500, and I have, on the part of the Government, consented to add a reward of £100, together with a pardon to any offender who will give evidence leading to the conviction of the others. With respect to the latter part of the Question, I have to say that, in ordinary cases of danger to life and property, it is the duty of the local authorities to furnish the necessary protection; and when the danger is beyond their power and public disturbance is apprehended, the aid of the central authorities can be called in, and the aid of the troops can be granted if the risk be sufficiently

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great. In the present case, I have received no such, application, nor have I received any complaint that the magistrates have not done their duty.

NAVY—EMIGRATION BY TROOP SHIPS.

  QUESTION.
  SIR JAMES LAWRENCEsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he can state the number of applications received from workmen discharged from the Dockyards for passages for themselves and families in the Troop Ships about to proceed to Canada; when the Troop Ships "Tamar" and "Crocodile" will sail; and, whether, if the two Troop Ships are found insufficient for the number wishing to emigrate, a third Troop Ship will be provided, in accordance with the announcement made by the First Lord of the Admiralty when introducing the Navy Estimates?
  MR. CHILDERS: In reply, Sir, to the first Question of my hon. Friend, I have to say that the number of applications from workmen discharged from the dockyards for passages to Canada is for 445 souls, or 353 statute adults. This is irrespective of the applications from workmen discharged from the departments under the War Office, whose exact number I do not know. The Tamar will sail on the 1st and the Crocodile on the 7th of June. In reply to the third Question, I have to say that my statement in introducing the Navy Estimates was that "two or three" ships would take emigrants, and since then we have always spoken of two ships only. A third ship goes to Canada late in the autumn; but we are advised that it would be wrong to send emigrants by her, as they would land in Canada at a time when work would be got with difficulty. I fear that I could not in any case send additional troop-ships. Emigrants are taken because the ships are going for troops; but ships could not be sent for troops merely because emigrants want to go. The two ships I have mentioned will take 1,200 or 1,300 people.

NEW BUILDINGS AT SOUTH KENSINGTON.—QUESTION.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, How soon that part of the new
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buildings at South Kensington to be appropriated to the Royal School of Naval Architecture is likely to be completed and roofed in; and, whether he is aware that building materials of great value have been long lying on the ground at South Kensington and suffering deterioration for want of money to make the proper use of them?
MR. GLADSTONEreplied, that the Treasury had limited the sum which was to be appropriated for the buildings at South Kensington during the present year, and his right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works was engaged in considering what was the best application to make of that sum. The right hon. Baronet was quite correct in stating that a considerable quantity of building materials was lying upon the ground at South Kensington; and although those materials were not of what was usually called a perishable character, they would certainly be none the better, and might be much the worse, in consequence of prolonged exposure to the weather. His right hon. Friend was sensible of that circumstance, and would endeavour to lay out the money in such a manner as to prevent any further progress in such deterioration.

THE MASSACRE IN GREECE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. AUBERON HERBERTsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If the Government would think it right to take steps to obtain the postponement of the execution of any brigands now in prison in Athens, until such an investigation has been held of the circumstances connected with the late massacre of captives as may be considered satisfactory by the Government?
  MR. OTWAY: Sir, I beg to say that Her Majesty's Government fully appreciate the interest and anxiety shown in this matter by the hon. Member for Nottingham, and his great desire that the investigation into the lamentable occurrence in Greece shall be as complete as possible, and with that view we have sent a telegraphic communication to Mr. Erskine, empowering him to obtain from Corfu and Constantinople such legal assistance as it may be possible to procure. The Secretary of State has also sent today a telegraphic communication in the

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  sense, and almost in the words, of the hon. Member's Question.

PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS.

  MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  SIR DAVID WEDDERBURNsaid, he rose to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the present system of conducting public prosecutions in Scotland, with the view of amending that system if necessary, and of extending to other parts of the United Kingdom the institution of Public Prosecutors. Since he had placed this Notice upon the Paper, there had been a considerable change in the aspect of the question. At that time he proposed not only to bring about a reform in the law of Scotland, but to afford valuable information to those who sought to institute public prosecutors in England and Ireland. Since then, however, a Bill on the subject had been introduced, had been read a second time without a Division, and referred to a Select Committee, and had a very fair prospect of becoming law this Session. That rendered his task much simpler, for his object was not to extol the system of public prosecutors, which had been established in Scotland for centuries, but to point out certain reforms which might advantageously be made, to render it more in harmony with the present state of opinion, and thus restore public confidence in the system which, in his opinion, still retained too much of the spirit of the times in which it was first instituted. The time seemed appropriate for establishing a similarity or identity of the law in the two kingdoms in this very important particular. If the Committee were granted he should wish to limit the inquiry strictly to the investigation of this particular case of prosecutors appointed and paid by the public to investigate cases on behalf of the Crown. There had been a Royal Commission to inquire into the legal procedure and practice of Scotland; the Commission had issued a voluminous Report, from which this question had not been omitted; but amid the mass of subjects to which their attention had been directed it had unavoidably occupied a position not adequate to its importance. But if a Committee were appointed to inquire into this subject alone they would probably take such evidence and come to such conclusions as would lead to a substantial improvement in the
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  law. The faults in the present system to which he would call the attention of the House related in a great measure to the method of appointment and payment of those public officers, but also, what was still more important, to the manner in which their proceedings and preliminary inquiries were conducted, the secret system under which they acted, and the arbitrary and irresponsible powers with which the public prosecutors were invested. It would be quite out of place to enter upon an account of the numerous and important functions with which the Office of Lord Advocate, now so worthily filled, had been by degrees intrusted. The original foundation of that officer as public prosecutor dated, he believed, from the middle of the 16th century. In its origin it appeared to have been instituted for purely fiscal purposes, to secure to the Crown its claims upon the estates of convicted criminals. The Lord Advocate had under him a powerful staff of subordinates, headed b}' the Solicitor General and four Advocates Depute, appointed by the Crown, and going out with the Government of the day. There were also local public prosecutors called Procurators Fiscal, appointed by the Sheriff or local Judge, and holding office as long as he did. It was their duty to investigate and report cases of crime, and to bring the accused to trial. To the method of appointment by local officials, he had various objections to urge, and he had the highest authority in support of his views. In a letter written in 1833, Lord Cockburn, then Solicitor General of Scotland, said, he had long been clear that Procurators Fiscal should be named by the Crown, and that the present system of letting them be named by the Sheriffs was peculiarly unsatisfactory, even when they appointed right men—and they often appointed wrong men. He (Lord Cockburn) would have it distinctly understood that this was not a political office, and the holders ought not to be appointed or removed on party considerations. The Lord Advocate possessed privileges and powers as a public prosecutor which hardly appeared in keeping with the general limits prescribed by the Constitution to Executive officers. He could delegate those powers to whom he pleased, and he was not liable to give security or pay damages for false imprisonment, or for the failure of his at-

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  tempts to prosecute. He could only be made liable to damages where he was suspected of having acted maliciously and beyond his duty. The total expenses of criminal proceedings in Scotland were £75,000 a year, of which sum the salaries of the Procurators Fiscal amounted to about one-third; and those salaries were supposed to cover all cases actually reported or brought to trial. Although the Procurators Fiscal received on the average salaries equal in amount to those of local Judges, they were entitled also to pursue their private practice; and while their salaries varied from £2,000 to £50, they, as a rule, made considerable incomes by private practice as lawyers, factors, and in various other ways. Now he (Sir David Wedderburn) thought that when a Judge was required to devote the whole of his time and talents to the public service in consideration of his salary, the public prosecutor, whose social position was less dignified, might very well be required to do so also. Various abuses were liable to arise from the present system. Thus, if a Procurator Fiscal were called on in his public capacity to prosecute one of his own clients—say, a powerful company or an influential individual—it could scarcely be supposed that he would as impartially and fearlessly discharge his public duties as if he were in a perfectly independent position. Again, if he were called on to prosecute as a private agent in certain cases where he would not be expected to do so as a public prosecutor—such cases as poaching or trespass—it was clear that his public position might give him the power to exercise considerable oppression, or at least, that the public would believe so. He did not say that such cases frequently arose, but they might possibly do so, and the public confidence in the impartial discharge of the Procurator Fiscal's functions might easily be shaken. For some years past all the Procurators Fiscal, with a few exceptions, had been placed upon fixed salaries, and since then there had been an apparent diminution in the number of trials. With regard to the relative number of committals and acquittals, the system appeared to work well in Scotland; for whereas in England, in 1868, which he took to be an average year, the total number of committals was upwards of 20,000, of which the convictions amounted to 75 per
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  cent; in Scotland the committals were 3,384—about 10 per cent more than in England in proportion to population, and the convictions exactly the same, or about 75 per cent. But when they considered the number of cases that ended in acquittal, they found them in England to amount to 20 per cent, whereas in Scotland they were only 9 per cent—the difference being accounted for by the accused being discharged without a trial taking place. Again, the method of paying those officials in Scotland had excited considerable dissatisfaction in certain counties. The professional services of the Procurators Fiscal were remunerated by fixed salaries, but their duties were confined to such cases only as were reported to the Crown Counsel; but unreported cases were not included in the salary. The result of such an arrangement must be that the public prosecutor was tempted either to get up cases where the proof was not sufficient to enable him to obtain a verdict, or even to go to a trial, because in either of those cases he would be entitled to make a charge against the county; or, on the other hand, he would be tempted to drop cases that ought to be brought to trial, and which would be held to be covered by his salary. The character of the public prosecutors in Scotland was very high, and he could not say that any great abuses had actually arisen from that system—indeed, he believed that these gentlemen generally refused to take advantage of this method of obtaining additional fees; but great dissatisfaction existed in the counties where the system prevailed, and its manifest tendency was to produce abuse. Another point in respect to which the present arrangements were not satisfactory was the ill defined position of the Chief Constable of a county, with reference to the Procurator Fiscal. The Select Committee of the House of Lords, which a few years ago inquired into the police of Scotland, recommended that in future one of those officers should be held responsible for the conduct and management of the police in those cases in which crime had to be investigated, and a suspected criminal pursued; and they also made a recommendation as to the payment by fixed salaries of Procurators Fiscal. He understood that the Commissioners of Supply for Aberdeenshire had this year

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  considered whether they might not resist the claim of the Procurators Fiscal for extra fees, and whether they might not refuse to assess the county in order to pay him, and leave the police still responsible for the unreported eases, and that next year they were to take that course. The general course pursued in cases of suspected crime was for the police to conduct a sort of private preliminary investigation, and report to the Procurator Fiscal; who in turn, if he thought fit, carried on an inquiry into the case and reported to the Crown Counsel. A precognition was a preliminary investigation conducted at the instance of the Procurator Fiscal in the presence of a magistrate; but it appeared in the evidence before the Committee of the House of Lords that, as a rule, the Sheriff Substitute was too much employed by his multifarious other duties to be present at those investigations, and that practically they were conducted in many cases by the public prosecutor acting alone, with no magistrate of any kind present. Even the prisoner himself need not be present at those precognitions, nor was he entitled to be furnished with a copy of the evidence brought against him. He was entitled, indeed to a list of the Crown witnesses, but he was seldom able to make use of that information. That secret system of preliminary investigation was altogether different from the English system, and he thought they might, with great advantage, adopt in Scotland something analogous to that which prevailed here. The public, as well as the prisoners, suffered by the inquisitorial mode of carrying on those inquiries, because confidence was lost in the impartiality with which they were conducted, and there was fear of collusion. The public prosecutor in Scotland might drop the proceedings, and withdraw from the trial at any stage up to the moment of pronouncing sentence; nor need he give the public any reasons whatever for so doing—a proceeding which in many instances gave rise to very great dissatisfaction. He was naturally unable to give exact instances of cases in which justice had miscarried, because the secresy of the system prevented his knowing, and prevented the public from knowing, whether, in any particular case, justice had been done or not. All that he knew was, that the
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  public felt that justice had not been fairly administered in some cases, which he attributed to the fact that public prosecutors were allowed to work so completely in the dark. No doubt the Lord Advocate would be able to contend that there were advantages connected with the secret system. That might be, but the evils far transcended the advantages. He would conclude by quoting words which had been often approved in this House—"Publicity is essential to the pure and impartial administration of justice." The hon. Baronet concluded by moving the appointment of a Select Committee.
  MR. MILLER,in seconding the Motion, said he fully concurred with the hon. Baronet in thinking that inquiry and improvement were required, for however applicable the system may have been to Scotland at one time, it now certainly required alteration. Procurators Fiscal were generally solicitors, and highly respectable; but in many cases the remuneration received by them for their public duty was not sufficient to maintain them, and the consequence was that they not only practised in the Sheriff's Court, to which they themselves belonged, but did business as insurance agents, bankers, and in other capacities. Their time was therefore frequently occupied by their private business. This arose from the smallness of the district assigned to each, and however necessary that arrangement may have been at one time, it is not so now; the country is in all directions intersected by railways and telegraphs, rendering communication rapid and easy. The districts ought to be made sufficiently large to ensure a higher remuneration, and thereby secure the services of men of the highest respectability, and who could devote their whole attention to the duties of the office. Then there is the system of private investigation practised by the Procurators, which is highly objectionable and should be abolished. He had had some experience of that system. Two gentlemen, who had acted as his assistants in railway works, had been sent for trial in the Justiciary Court after private investigations. In both cases the prosecution failed. Had the preliminary investigation been public, neither of those gentlemen would ever have been sent for trial. The whole tendency of these private examinations is to cri-

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  minate the accused, and he has no means of meeting the accusation brought against him except at the trial. He thought that if the investigation were conducted openly, it would be better for the public, better for the investigation, and certainly would be more satisfactory to the public generally. The proceedings against the two gentlemen to whom he had referred cost them several hundred pounds.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the present system of conducting public prosecutions in Scotland, with the view of amending that system, if necessary, and of extending to other parts of the United Kingdom the institution of Public Prosecutors,"—(Sir David Wedderburn,)
  MR. GRIEVEsupported the Motion. Owing to recent circumstances great dissatisfaction with the present system existed in the West of Scotland. In Greenock, in 1867, two murders by stabbing were committed; in 1869 two others were committed in the same way. When these cases came to trial before the High Court of Justiciary, the Crown Counsel came forward and. said he was prepared to accept a plea of culpable homicide. A similar plea had been accepted more recently in the case of a woman murdered under circumstances so atrocious that he could not more closely allude to them in that House. He thought, under those circumstances, they were justified in asking for a Committee, and he trusted the Lord Advocate would accede to it.
  MR. DYCE NICOLsaid, he did not think a case had been made out for the inquiry proposed. We should soon have a Report from the Commission on Judicial Procedure in Scotland, which might indirectly bear on this question. The system of public prosecution, as conducted by the Procurators Fiscal in Scotland, was generally approved of, and was found to work satisfactorily. The mode of remunerating that office he considered highly objectionable, and calculated to interfere with the administration of justice, although, from the high character of those officers, it did not practically do so. Still, he considered the distinction quite indefensible, that when a case is reported to the Crown Counsel, the expense should be met by the Exchequer, and, when not so reported, it was to be defrayed by the county. This had
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  led in most counties in Scotland to a bargain being made with the Procurator Fiscal, giving him a certain sum to do his duty. But in Aberdeenshire they had been unable to make a satisfactory arrangement, and they had no power to compel that officer to enter into such. He thought that the expense of all criminal investigations and prosecutions should be defrayed by Government, and not thrown on the landowners, on whom the burden of the police and county constabulary chiefly fell. He would urge on the consideration of the Lord Advocate the repeal of the Rogue Money Act, and that all assessments for criminal purposes should be leviable under the Police Act, the expense of prosecutions being undertaken by Government, and the only other object of that Act, the subsistence of criminals while in prison, would naturally come under the prison statutes.
  MR. MAXWELLsaid, that though he approved of much that had been said, he scarcely thought a case had been made out for inquiry. So far, the system had worked very well. There was a question connected with this subject of some importance. If any means could be devised for putting these gentlemen on a salary for all their work, whether in regard to what the country or the Government was liable for, it would be very satisfactory. This was now done by private arrangement. Another matter was the delay which took place in examining the accounts. It took three years to get them returned from Edinburgh. He hoped this would be reformed.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEalso thought no case had been made out for inquiry.
  MR. DENMANhoped the Lord Advocate would regard this question from an English as well as from a Scotch point of view. A feeling was growing up in this country in favour of the appointment of a public prosecutor. The system of public prosecutors in Scotland was not by any means perfect; and it would be a great advantage to England if an inquiry were to be instituted into the working of the Scotch system, before any scheme involving the appointment of public prosecutors was adopted by this country.
  MR. CARNEGIEthought that many reasons might be given why they should have this inquiry. One, that had not

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  yet been cited, was the doubt that sometimes existed whether any inquiry at all had been held in cases where inquiry seem desirable, and he should support the motion of his hon. Friend.
  MR. M'LARENthought there should be inquiry, but he very much objected to its being supposed to depend on the character and conduct of the Procurator-Fiscal. What seemed horrible to Englishmen was, that a man should be arrested on a serious charge and examined in private, without counsel or friend being present; and the most damaging statements might be made by witnesses against him, also examined in private. He was then shut up in a gaol and his friends were not allowed to visit him, until he had undergone another examination, which was taken down in writing, and might be used against him on his trial. But all this had nothing to do with the character of the Procurator Fiscal—it was the remnant of the secret system which was at one time universal in Scotland. In his opinion the Lord Advocate could, on his own authority, issue an order that these examinations should be taken in public. He was decidedly of opinion that these officers should be appointed by the Crown and not by the Sheriff. It did not seem to him of importance whether the salary should be paid partly by the Crown and partly by the country. The question of salary was of no moment compared with the question respecting the proper administration of justice.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, he could find no fault with the hon. Baronet the Member for Ayrshire (Sir David Wedderburn) for bringing this subject under the notice of the House, for it was one of great interest, and he acknowledged that, in his temperate remarks, his hon. Friend had evinced his usual clearness of expression and his usual ability. Nevertheless, he felt bound to resist the Motion, for the appointment of a Committee, not because there was anything in the present system of conducting public prosecutions in Scotland that he should desire to conceal, but because the system was entirely well known to everyone in authority; and, in fact, the amplest information was already within the reach of everyone who took an interest in the subject. He understood his hon. Friend to make; no remark derogatory to the Procurators
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  Fiscal; but, on the contrary, to admit, with everyone who addressed the House, that they were men of the highest character and reputation in their profession, and he was astonished that his hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren) had treated his remarks as if they were so intended. Dealing with the subject on its merits, there were two matters which had been made the subject of considerable observation by the hon. and learned Baronet. The first had reference to the fact that the Procurators Fiscal were appointed by the Courts to which they were attached. The Procurators Fiscal of the Sheriff Courts were appointed by the Sheriff; the Procurators Fiscal of the Justices of the Peace Court by the Justices of the Peace; the Procurators Fiscal of the Magistrates of the Burgh Courts by the Magistrates. Thai had been the system time out of mind. Every Court appointed its own Procurator Fiscal to attend to the conduct of the public business before them. Upwards of 30 years ago, the Lord Advocate of the day brought in a measure for the purpose of transferring the appointment of the Procurators Fiscal of the Sheriff's Court from that Court to the Crown; but that proposal was very extensively objected to in Scotland, and it was not thought worth while to proceed with it, on the ground, he believed, that the Sheriffs exercised their power of appointment in an unexceptional manner. As the object was always to get the best local practitioner to take charge of the public business before the local Court, it was thought there could be no better qualified person to make the selection than the local Judge himself. Though it might be an anomaly that the Court should appoint the prosecutor, yet he (the Lord Advocate) had never heard the system objected to on any substantial ground, such as the miscarriage of justice, or other inconvenience resulting from it. In the next place, it had been made matter of comment by the hon. Baronet (Sir David Wedderburn) that the Procurators Fiscal were not confined to public business, but were allowed to take private business. This was a matter on which there existed a difference of opinion; but, in his judgment, the existing practice was advantageous in everyway. The object was to get the best local practitioner in each county to attend to

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  the public business, and consequently, it was reasonable to select for the office the practitioner who held the best local position, and in whom the highest confidence was placed. Now, it did not often happen that the solicitor who was deemed the most trustworthy man of business was altogether without employment; on the contrary, he was generally a man well employed, by clients; and, if it were made a condition that those accepting the office of Procurator Fiscal should give up all their private clients, then there would at once be struck off the list of those available for the office all local practitioners who had obtained any considerable amount of business of their own. It must be remarked, too, that in such a case it would be necessary to put the office on quite a different footing from that on which it stood at present. The appointment was not a life appointment, but was an appointment during the pleasure of the Sheriff, and during his tenure of office. If, then, it should be required that the Procurator Fiscal should give up all private business, the office must of necessity be put on a permanent footing, and such a salary and retiring allowance must be attached to it as would induce competent persons to accept the appointment. This would be a considerable charge. And there was the further objection that there were very few districts in Scotland which afforded sufficient to occupy such an officer's whole time and attention, and by thus confining Procurators Fiscal to the conduct of public business their quality would not be improved; but, on the contrary, deteriorated. He would now advert to the third point to which attention had been directed, and that was the secret system of preliminary examination. He might here state, for the information of the House, that that was not a part of the system of public prosecutions, but applied equally to private ones, it being a part of the criminal law of Scotland. He might at once say that it was a system of which he individually could not approve, for he was of opinion that it was neither right in practice, nor defensible in theory, that an investigation involving an issue so important to any individual as the question whether he should be set at liberty or committed for trial should be decided, behind his back, and that the evidence should be kept concealed from him. That ancient rule
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  of law in Scotland had only been allowed to continue to the present time, because the system of public presecutions in that country was so excellent in itself, and had worked so admirably, that no practical injustice had been done under it, although he confessed that it was practically so objectionable. With a system of private prosecutions, indeed, it would be utterly intolerable; but, Scotch public prosecutors were so fair and candid, attending to the interest of justice, and to that only, without partiality, favour, or prejudice, that, not-withstanding the depositions—as they were called in England—were taken in the absence of the accused, he had not heard a complaint of even individual injustice thence arising; and he knew of nothing which was more strongly in favour of the present system than that there had been no complaint of injustice or of miscarriage of justice. He repeated, however, that the rule was objectionable in itself, and not conducive to the interests of justice, and he should not in the least object to consider, and that with a favourable disposition, any proposal to amend the rule of procedure in that respect; but it certainly was not necessary to have a Committee to take evidence on the subject. He would himself, if necessary, bring the subject under the attention of the House. Reference had been made to some individual cases—one in the town of Greenock, which seemed to have occurred through some fatality, in which the public prosecutor had restricted the charge from one of murder to that of culpable homicide, contrary to the prevailing opinion of the community. Individually he was no more qualified to express an opinion on the subject than any other hon. Member, yet it seemed to him that instances of error of judgment would occur under any system that could possibly be devised. It was in the power of a public prosecutor to restrict his "libel" as it was technically called, and he might depart from the charge wholly or in part, but that did not affect the system of public prosecutions; it was part of the law of Scotland, and might be equally adopted by a private prosecutor. Justice, he admitted, was better guarded in the hands of a public officer than in those of a private prosecutor, and he was not aware that any well-founded cases had occurred in recent years in which any charge

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  could be made against the former. If it Lad been thought by anyone that a public prosecutor had failed to perform his duty by not pressing a charge to which he ought to have adhered, he (the Lord Advocate) would not only cause investigation to be made, but would even make it himself. No such complaint, however, had been made to him. His hon. Friend the Member for Greenock (Mr. Grieve) had adverted to a case which occurred just before he took his present Office—that in which a man was accused of murdering a woman. The trial was held at the Glasgow Circuit Court, after he succeeded to Office, and that was the reason why he was brought into communication with the presiding Judge, who volunteered the information that, in his opinion, the Advocate Depute—who had been assailed in the newspapers—had taken a right course, find one which had the entire approbation of both himself and his brother Judge on circuit. The public had not those means of judging which the Advocate Depute possessed, and if in that particular case the public had been accurately informed they might have been of the same opinion as the Judges, that there had not been any miscarriage of justice in that case. That, however, did not affect the system of public prosecutions, and if there had been a miscarriage of justice in any individual case it was only what might occur under any other system. With regard to the remarks of the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Denman) he wished to remind the House that last week a Bill, the object of which was to introduce the system of public prosecutors into England, was referred to a Select Committee, which would have power, as far as the Members might think necessary to enable them to judge of the desirability of introducing the system into this country, to take what evidence they pleased. Reviewing the whole subject, it appeared, to him there had not been made out any case for the appointment of a Select Committee to take evidence upon this subject.
  MR. GORDONsaid, that he concurred generally in the views which had been expressed by the Lord Advocate, and especially in what he had said as to the first point of the proposed inquiry—namely, the appointment of Procurators Fiscal. He (Mr. Gordon) was equally of opinion that it should remain with the
  478
  local Judges, who had opportunities of considering the merits of the various practitioners appearing before them, and to whose interest it clearly was that the best man should be appointed. With reference to the Bill which proposed to extend this system to England, he suggested whether some such mode of appointment as that, adopted in Scotland might not prevent many of the objections which had been urged against the adoption of the system in this country—those objections being principally founded on the idea that the patronage was to be given to the Crown. The system adopted in Scotland had, to his thinking, worked admirably. As to Lord Cockburn, he rather thought that learned Lord had lived to change his opinion; while it was generally thought by the legal profession in Scotland that the existing mode of appointment was the best that could be devised, and that to transfer the power of appointment to the Treasury under any Government would be attended with considerable risk, because appointments, would occasionally, though not generally, be made with reference to political opinions, and to satisfy political claims. That objection was not applicable to the system at present followed in Scotland. As regarded the payment of Procurators Fiscal, the Lord Advocate was quite right in saying that if those officers were deprived of the opportunity they now enjoyed of conducting their private business, a very considerable advance in their salaries must be made, which would throw an additional burden on the public funds. That was, however, a fair topic for consideration, though his own inclination was to adhere to a system which had really worked well. Something similar existed in Ireland, where the Crown Solicitor conducted private business, and the system, he presumed, had been applied to Ireland upon considerations such as those which had been urged by the Lord Advocate. With regard to the practice of examining witnesses in the absence of the accused—a system to which the Lord Advocate was opposed—it should be distinctly understood that the Scotch law gave great facilities to the accused, who 14 days before his trial was furnished with a list of the witnesses against him, and when in Court always had the privilege of being defended by counsel; in addition to which there was the pecu-

  479
  liarity of the Scotch jury system, by which, a majority might convict or acquit, or might find a verdict of "Not proven," which enabled a conscientious jury to come to a conclusion that satisfied their own minds, without actually acquitting a prisoner, which must sometimes be the case if they had not that refuge. He trusted that the system of the private examination of witnesses would not be altered lightly, or without due consultation with persons who had well considered our system of criminal jurisprudence. He would venture to say that the system of administering the criminal law in Scot-had hitherto worked admirably. He was not aware of any defect in it, nor had he heard of anyone who had suffered injustice from it. While in theory it might not appear to be the best system, he would say there was no system of criminal administration that had worked better than that now in operation in Scotland.
  MR. GRIEVEasked to be permitted to state, by way of explanation, in reference to the four cases of stabbing he had referred to, that he had received from the Chief Constable of Greenock a telegram stating that a plea of culpable homicide was tendered and accepted in one case, and that the other three went to trial and were convicted.
  SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKEsaid, that basing his opinion on well-authenticated statements, he believed that owing to the secret mode of conducting inquiries miscarriages of justice had taken place. The manner in which secret inquiries were conducted in cases of sudden death and fatal accident was eminently unsatisfactory, the matter being left to the discretion of a public officer, without any of those securities which the publicity of inquests afforded in England. Another matter deserving of attention was the manner in which the Procurators Fiscal were paid. If the mode of payment operated as an inducement to exertion—which he doubted—it unfairly laid them open to the imputation of augmenting business to increase their salaries.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, that the Crown invariably paid by salary; the counties also generally paid their proportions by salary, and although some counties did not, it was quite in their power to do so. No doubt they must carry the Sheriff of the county
  480
  along with them; but there was not a Sheriff in Scotland who would object to the adoption of such a system. The real difficulty was, that in one or two cases the counties wished to have the county rates relieved to a greater extent than was possible at present out of the public Exchequer; which showed that the whole business was not a mere question of payment by salary or fees, but of more or less relieving the local rates at the expense of the public Revenue. It might be possible to increase the relief, but it could be done only as it was done in England.
  SIR DAVID WEDDERBURN,disclaiming any intention to attack officers who had worked well under a defective system, intimated that he should take the opinion of the House on his Motion.
  Question put, and negatived.

EAST INDIA (OPIUM REVENUE).

  RESOLUTION.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSON: Sir, when the Indian Budget was before the House in August last year, the hon. Member for Penrhyn (Mr. R. N. Fowler) and myself made some remarks in condemnation of the system of raising a large portion of the Seventies of India from opium; and on that occasion the hon. Member for the Eastern Division of the West Riding (Mr. C. Denison) said it was not a question that could be properly discussed in that way; but that if we objected to the opium traffic and the opium Revenue, we should bring the question fairly before the House. In answer to the challenge, we venture to bring forward the Resolution which I have put on the Paper for to-day—
  "That this House condemns the system by which a large portion of the Indian Revenue is raised from Opium."
  Before going any further, I had better explain that the principle which I believe in, and which, has led me to propose this Motion, is the old and well-known principle that what is morally wrong can never be politically right. I do not want to dogmatize; I do not want to say that that is the rule which ought to be applied to all legislation. I only say that I believe it to be so. Those hon. Gentlemen who do not hold that opinion will find nothing in my speech which will warrant them in voting, or induce them to vote, for my Resolution.

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  It all depends upon whether they believe in the principle. If the principle be right, I must proceed to show that this traffic in opium, fostered and promoted by our Government, is in itself immoral and injurious to those among whom it is carried on; and having proved that, in accordance with the principle which I have stated, I think I shall have made out a ground for the House carrying the Resolution I have ventured to propose. At any rate the Prime Minister will not object to my principle, for I remember in a pamphlet which he wrote not long since, seeing these words—"Few would deny the obligation of a State to follow the moral law." It is a rather remarkable fact that the question—which I believe is a very grave question indeed, involving, as it does, the happiness of multitudes in the East—has never been fairly discussed in this House or fairly brought before it for 27 years. On the 4th of April, 1843, the Earl of Shaftesbury, who was then Lord Ashley, moved in this House a Resolution virtually the same as that which I am moving now. The Government of that day—the Government of Sir Robert Peel—did not venture to oppose the Motion with a negative, but felt themselves constrained to move the "Previous Question." Ultimately, however, Lord Shaftesbury was induced to withdraw his Motion, on the statement of Sir Robert Peel that negotiations were pending, and that such a Motion being carried in the House would interfere with those negotiations. No change has taken place since then in the system which Lord Shaftesbury condemned—that is to say, no material change. There is no change, of course, in the nature of the drug, or in the misery it causes to those who consume it; and there is no change in the habits of those to whom it is sold, and their desire to obtain it. But there is a change in certain circumstances which, perhaps, well warrant me in bringing the question now under the notice of the House. Since the day when Lord Shaftesbury made his Motion, there has been a great change in the government of India. We now are more directly and more distinctly responsible for that government than we were in the old days of the East India Company. Moreover, we have a new Parliament elected on a new franchise, and they may take a different view of the question to what
  482
  the former Parliament did. Above all, I rejoice to say that the old-spirited foreign policy, which consisted, as far as I could understand it, in bullying the weak and truckling to the strong, is dead—I hope never to revive again. To prove my case, of course I must bring forward evidence. I do not like reading-long quotations; but I must read quotations in this case, for my assertion of the nature of the traffic will scarcely be taken by the House. The House must understand that this opium, as prepared and sold by the Indian Government, is not medical opium; it is not a drug intended for the soothing of men's pains and sufferings. I have evidence hero of the highest authorities which, I think, distinctly proves that. It would take too long to read it; but the House will take my word that that is the case. But I must prove what the real effect of the drug is. Lord Shaftesbury, in the debate to which I have alluded, read a most remarkable declaration signed by Sir Benjamin Brodie and 25 of the most eminent physicians of that day. The paper was drawn up by Sir Benjamin Brodie. I believe that Lord Shaftesbury offered it to him for signature, and Sir Benjamin Brodie himself altered it and made it stronger and more emphatic. This is what the 25 of the most eminent medical men of that day said—
  "They could not but regard those who promoted the use of opium as an article of luxury as inflicting a most serious injury on the human race."
  Yet the Indian Government have gone on promoting its use from that day to this. The Court of Directors themselves, who were carrying on the trade, said, in a despatch to the Governor General, dated October 24th, 1817—
  "Were it possible to prevent the use of the drug altogether, except for the purposes of medicine, we would gladly do it in compassion to mankind;"
  and Mr. Marjoribanks, many years in the service of the East India Company in China, and president of their select committee in Canton, said—
  "The misery and demoralization occasioned by it are almost beyond belief;"
  and Consul Lay, as quoted by Mr. Montgomery Martin before the House; of Commons in 1847, said—"It is hamstringing the nation." Mons. Huc, the celebrated Catholic missionary and tra-

  483
  veller, gives an account of how it operates on the victims. He says—
  "With the exception of some rare smokers, all others advance rapidly towards death, after having passed, through successive stages of idleness, debauchery, poverty, the ruin of their physical strength, and the complete prostration of their intellectual and moral faculties. Nothing can stop a smoker who has made much progress in the habit."
  One of our own missionaries, Dr. Medhurst, the eminent missionary of the London Missionary Society, says—
  "Calculating the shortened lives, the frequent diseases, and the actual starvation which are the result of opium smoking in China, we may venture to assert that this penicious drug annually destroys myriads of individuals;"
  and again he says—
  "Slavery was not productive of more misery and death than was the opium traffic, nor were Britons more implicated in the former than in the latter."
  Mr. Montgomery Martin, who held high office under the British Government at Hong Kong, says—
  "The slave trade was merciful compared with the opium trade. Every hour is bringing new victims to a Moloch which knows no satiety, where the English murderer and Chinese suicide vie with each other in offerings at his shrine."
  And a Chinese mandarin well summed up the case when he said—"It is not the man who eats the opium, but the opium eats the man." Let me give you one more quotation, more telling than all—a quotation from the Select Committee of the House itself. The Select Committee on our Commercial Relations with China admit that—
  "They are afraid the demoralizing influence on the population of the opium trade is incontestible and inseparable from its existence."
  These quotations are perhaps enough to prove that we are not wrong in condemning this traffic: but I got a letter this morning from Mr. Wylie, who, I fancy, knows as much of China as any man, for he has been, employed by the Bible Society for the last 20 years travelling up and down the country, and he says—
  "Anyone who has lived half that time among the Chinese can scarcely have a doubt as to the destructive effects of opium physically, mentally, and morally. Undoubtedly this is one of the greatest evils with which China is affected, and unless some means be found to check the practice, it bids fair to accomplish the utter destruction, morally and physically, of that great Empire."
  The system on which this traffic is carried on was stated last year very shortly and very clearly in the Budget speech of
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  my hon. Friend the Member for Elgin (Mr. Grant Duff). He explained that in Bengal opium is grown by the Government: the Government are the actual dealers in it. They grow it and sell it at Calcutta by auction. The opium grown in Central India is shipped at Bombay. In round numbers, about half comes from Bengal and half from Bombay. In 1800 only about 4,000 chests were imported into China, and now the importation is rather more than 70,000 chests. It is important to understand the history of this trade. We must remember that all this opium was positively smuggled into China before 1860. There were proclamations forbidding its importation till that year, when, by the Treaty with Lord Elgin, the Chinese consented at length to admit it. That was the beginning of the system. The defence of this smuggling in those days was that it was connived at by the Chinese officials. I do not know enough of Chinese history to affirm or deny the truth of that view; but I am inclined to think that if true it proves too much. I have no doubt there was bribery and corruption among the Chinese officials to a very great extent; but I do not see how that could make the traffic any better. If men broke into the house of another, it would be no excuse to say—"We are in league with the footman." The bribery and corruption of officials to injure the Chinese Government only makes the case worse. Captain Elliot writes—
  "No man entertains a deeper detestation of the disgrace and vice of this forced traffic on the coast of China than the humble individual who signs this despatch."
  That was in November, 1839. While this smuggling was going on the greatest efforts were made by our representatives to induce the Imperial Government to legalize this traffic; but they stood out resolutely against it, and got more determined to oppose the trade as they saw more and more of its evils. In October, 1836, they adopted strong prohibitory measures, and really in earnest set to work to try to stop this smuggling. They tried peaceable means for some time; but in 1839, when our own representative said that they almost succeeded in stopping the trade, the war broke out in consequence of the seizure of opium belonging to British merchants then on the coast of China. In March,

  485
  1837, the Imperial Government seized 20,000 chests of opium, worth at least £2,000,000, and they destroyed it. They did not make money of it as they might have done; but showed by destroying it that they were thoroughly in earnest in the endeavour to get rid of the traffic. It was said at the time that there was not a solitary instance in the history of the world of a pagan monarch destroying that which injured his people rather than fill his pockets with the gains, and I am afraid there are some Christian monarchies whose acts would not compare very favourably with this. The seizure was construed into an insult, though it was an act in strict accordance with their law, and was just and honourable. That was the ground on which the War of 1839 was commenced, and it was carried on till 1842, when it was concluded by the Treaty of Nankin, under which we exacted payment from the Imperial Government of $600,000 for the opium, $12,000,000 for the war, and $3,000,000 for debts due by Hong Kong merchants to British subjects. We got other stipulations in favour of trade; but the opium trade was still prohibited, though we did all we could to persuade the Chinese to legalize it. The Government insisted upon excluding that traffic. The Treaty of 1842 was carried out with a certain amount of success for a number of years; but it is worth notice that the other trade with China, from which we were to expect so much, did not go on increasing at all in the manner we were led to expect, and in 1854 our manufacturing imports into China were less than in 1835, a very remarkable fact to bear in mind in dealing with this opium question. That went on till 1857, when "the lorcha war," which everybody remembers, broke out. That was a war which, on looking backwards, I suppose almost all of us will admit we were entirely wrong in, the vessel being undoubtedly a pirate. We carried on the war in the most horrible manner, and, among other outrages, perpetrated the greatest piece of Vandalism of the present century, in burning and looting the Emperor's Summer Palace. The result of that was the Treaty of Tien-Tsing in 1860, and then, for the first time, the introduction of opium was sanctioned at a duty of 10 per cent. The Chinese begged hard to make it 20 per cent; but that was not conceded to them
  486
  by our Plenipotentiary, and that duty of 10 per cent on opium has remained until within a very few months. But what was the opinion of our leading statesmen concerning that war? I am going to quote these opinions, not so much because they condemn the war itself, but because they condemn pretty strongly the cause of that war. The President of the Board of Trade said, with regard to the first war—
  "No man, I believe, with a spark of morality in his composition, no man who cares anything for the opinion of his fellow-countrymen, has dared to justify that war."
  And what did the right hon. Gentleman now at the head of the Government say in 1840? He declared that—
  "A war more unjust in its origin, a war more calculated in its progress to cover this country with permanent disgrace, he did not know and had not read of. If the British flag were never to be hoisted except as it was then hoisted, we should recoil from its light with horror. Justice, in his opinion, was with the Chinese. Whilst they, the pagans, had substantial justice on their side, we, the enlightened and civilized Christians, were pursuing objects at variance both with justice and religion."
  The point of that quotation is this, that we have been pursuing those objects ever since and are pursuing them now, not making war for them, but pursuing them in such manner as we are enabled to do from the result of that war. I have said that the duty on opium has been raised, and that the Chinese were anxious to have it raised higher, in order to restrict the trade as much as possible. Now, Sir, I apprehend that it is very possible my hon. Friend the Member for Elgin may say that the Chinese are not in earnest in opposing the introduction of opium into China. I have shown that they proved themselves in earnest in 1839; and if they are not in earnest, can he tell me why they should put out this proclamation? Their conduct in this treaty shows their earnestness. And there is another remarkable thing, that the rebels in China made it a part of their charter or their creed or their proclamation that they had a deadly hostility to the cultivation of the poppy in China. Both the Taepings and the Government united in condemning the poppy, showing that public opinion in China was decidedly against it. Surely we cannot be surprised at this condemnation of the traffic and of the cultivation of the poppy. Surely a Christian country can

  487
  understand the language of the Chinese Emperor when he said—"Nothing can induce me to derive a Revenue from the vices and misery of my people." But there is another aspect of this great question, and that is, the injury that it does to us in that part of the world. I believe that our conduct in the war arising from this traffic with the Chinese has made us hated in the East. I have no doubt there are many Members of this House who look with dislike on missionary work. Some think the missionaries had better be employed at home. Now, I am not here to condemn or defend missionaries; but when they go out with their lives in their hands to proclaim what they believe to be the Word of God, I think we must honour them for their devotion. Well now, what do the missionaries say? They are not hated as missionaries; but they are disliked because they are looked upon as connected with the opium trade. The Rev. J. Edkins, in a letter to Sir Rutherford Alcock, said the hostility entertained by the Chinese to Protestant missionaries is not directed against them as a class, but as foreigners. A missionary was not long since driven out of a large city in the Province of Honan by a mob, led on by the native gentry, shouting—"You burned our palace; you killed our Emperor; you sell poison to the people; now you come professing to teach us virtue." Now this has been our policy, and I ask the House whether it is a policy that they are prepared to maintain and enforce? I remember hearing the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), in one of his periods of withering sarcasm, talk about gentlemen who speculate in shares and call it "progress." I wonder what he would say about a nation which becomes a wholesale druggist, administering poison to another nation, and calling this process the opening up of China. I have looked for arguments for this policy, and can find but two. It is said that the opium trade is no worse than the spirit trade at home. I shall not institute a comparison. All I can say is, that two blacks do not make one white. Moreover, this question is not to be decided by determining whether the spirit trade is bad or not, but whether the opium trade is itself essentially bad. But there is a difference which ought to be taken into
  488
  account in considering this question. The Government themselves are the dealers in opium; they grow the opium, and sell it to the highest bidder. Now I boldly condemn that proceeding. I say that this trade, which the country fosters and promotes, inflicts infinitely more harm upon the people than it does good. I believe that many Members of this House think that the spirit trade produces a certain amount of good, though they never state what it is. But no one will get up and say that there is any countervailing benefit in the opium trade. But the real argument is this—the Indian Government says it wants the money, and has no other way of getting it. Now a right hon. Gentleman—whom I do not see on the Treasury Bench—dealt with this subject some years since in a pamphlet. I will not give his name; but he said—
  "Prevention of the trade is a sacrifice to morality so great that we hardly ought to impose it on our Hindoo subjects until we have washed our hands clean by ceasing ourselves to manufacture gin. Until then England surely has no right to force India to be more moral than itself, unless it is prepared to make up to India out of the English taxes the £4,000,000 which this morality would cost."
  But I say that there are 300,000,000 of people in China, and that you are not to poison them any more than you are to raise increased taxation in India. It may be said that we might have a large market for our manufactures in China. But I am sorry to say I do not think it would be fair or honest in me to use that argument. I am afraid that opium is the only thing in which we are likely for some time to come to find a trade with China. What does Mr. Mitchell say? Writing to Sir Charles Bonham in 1852, he said—
  "We bring the Chinese nothing that is really popular among them except, our opium. Opium is the 'open sesame' to their strong hearts, snd woe betide our trade the day we meddle with it to its injury. As fast as the Company will produce opium the Chinese will consume it."
  My hon. Friend the Member for Elgin last year—I am still on the money point—admitted that the Revenue from opium was most precarious, and he said there were three reasons why he should doubt whether it could be maintained. The first was, that some political affair might arise which would induce China to prohibit the article; the second was, that some foreign

  489
  country might take up the trade; and the third was, that the Chinese themselves might take up the cultivation. Now the latter fear is already realized. The cultivation of opium is rapidly increasing all over China. I think there is something inexpressibly sad when we think that only a few years ago this cultivation was not prevalent, and that it has been fostered entirely by our forcing the trade upon them, breaking down their opposition. Ten years ago opium was grown in small patches in gardens, or for ornament, the penalty for growing it being death. Now the popular belief is, that eight out of every ten men and one-half the women smoke. There is something inexpressibly sad that we have been that means of carrying all this misery to China. I should have thought that with 1,000,000 of paupers at home caused by drink, we had quite enough to answer for without carrying all this misery to another nation. I assert that all this demoralization cannot be justified on fiscal grounds, and I am happy once more to quote the Prime Minister, who has said on a former occasion—
  "Considering the Budget us a matter of finance, it is quite secondary to its moral and social bearings."
  My hon. Friend the Member for Elgin may object to this as an abstract Resolution. I know that the Government hates abstract Resolutions, and this House hates abstract Resolutions, and I hate abstract Resolutions. But there is a time for everything; and I am unable to see how, on any occasion, I could have brought this question fairly before the House, and have it discussed, except by moving an abstract Resolution. Besides, I am not calling upon the Government immediately to disarrange all their Indian finance. I know it is impossible for them to act at once on any such Resolution; and I am not bringing a railing accusation against any Ministry or against any party. I believe that we have all been guilty. We have all suffered this evil to go on too long. It is time to put a stop to such an evil; and all I ask this House to declare is, that they are ready to sustain Her Majesty's Government in carrying out an Eastern policy more in accordance with the claims of justice, humanity, and national morality. The hon. Baronet concluded by moving his Resolution.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That this House condemns the system by which a large portion of the Indian Revenue is raised from Opium."—(Sir Wilfrid Lawson.)
  MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid: Sir, the hon. Baronet has put the consumption of opium on a par with the consumption of alcoholic beverages. I go farther. In my opinion the evils produced by opium are far greater than those that result from the use of beer, spirits, and wine in this country. In England beer and wine are frequently prescribed by medical men; but who ever heard of a physician ordering a patient to smoke opium? And the evil results of this use of opium in China are far greater than those which result from drunkenness, great as those undoubtedly are. My hon. Friend has already quoted a document signed by the late Sir Benjamin Brodie, and endorsed by 24 other medical men of great eminence. Sir, I think that this testimony is of great value, and I believe that the importance which the House will be disposed to attach to the opinion of these illustrious men will not be diminished when we remember that many of them are now numbered with the dead. Mr. Julius Jeffreys, F.E.S., formerly Staff Surgeon of Cawnpore and Civil Surgeon of Futtehgurh, in his work on The British Army in India, published in 1858, says to the effect—
  "The total production of spirits in Great Britain and Ireland, both for home consumption and exportation, exceeds 20,000,000 of gallons. A quantity alarming to contemplate. The opium consumed in China, if dissolved in that spirit, would just about suffice to convert it all into laudanum; and then, in the physician's estimate of its powers, all that solvent spirit present would be nearly as so much water compared with the opium. Moreover, opium acts not less, but more powerfully upon the Mongolian—the Chinese—than on the Caucasian—the European race; and not less, but more, when smoked, or rather deeply inhaled, than when taken into the stomach. …. Is there one member sitting in the British or Indo-British Council Chamber who could refrain from denouncing as an offender deserving condign punishment the chemist whom he found teaching his household, for gain, to consume laudanum as an agent of vicious excitement? And would that chemist better his position; would he not rather drive the injured parent or husband frantic, by proving that his family by use could now consume it by spoonfuls with apparent impunity, or by arguing that if he did not entice them some other chemist would; or by coolly calculating how insignificant a proportion, and therefore loss, his family was to the whole population? Yet such, nay, in many respects worse than this, have been our doings in China,"

  491
  I will next, with the permission of the House, read an extract from The Middle Kingdom—a work by S. Wells Williams, a well-known Chinese scholar and author—
  "The thirst and burning sensation in the throat which the wretched sufferer feels, only to be removed by a repetition of the dose, proves one of the strongest links in the chain which drags him to his ruin. At this stage of the habit his case is almost hopeless; if the pipe be delayed too long, vertigo, complete prostration, and discharge of water from the eyes ensue; if entirely withheld, coldness and aching pains are felt over the body, an obstinate diarrhœa supervenes, and death closes the scene. The disastrous effects of the drug upon the constitution seem to be somewhat delayed or modified by the quantity of nourishing food the person can procure, and, consequently, it is among the poor, who can least afford the pipe, and still less the injury done to their energies, that the destruction of life is the greatest. The evils suffered and crimes committed by the desperate victims of the opium pipe are dreadful and multiplied. Theft, arson, murder, and suicide are perpetrated in order to obtain it or escape its effects."—[Vol. II., pp. 303, 4.]
  Dr. Bridges, who has recently been appointed a Poor Law Commissioner by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor Law Board, in the essay on China which he contributed to the volume, entitled International Policy, says—
  "It is the interest, or the supposed interest, of the Indian Government to derive a Revenue of from £5,000,000 to £8,000,000 from the sale of opium to China. Every sophistry is therefore used to persuade the public of what every medical man in Europe knows to be false, that opium, in quantities of a few grains daily, is not injurious to health; and on the basis of that falsehood to found the inference that, if its excess be hurtful, that is no more than may be said of the abuse of alcoholic liquor; that its prohibition by Government would, therefore, stand on the same footing as the prohibition of wine, beer, and spirits, demanded by the supporters of the Maine Liquor Law, condemned by most reasonable men, on the ground that the abuse of a thing is no argument against its use. I say then, first, that every medical man in Europe knows, that whereas the use of beer or wine in small quantities is in most cases not injurious, the constant use even of small doses of opium, except in certain cases of disease, is injurious exceedingly. Secondly, whereas beer or wino can easily be taken in moderation, like tea or coffee, from year to year, without increasing the quantity, opium cannot. It requires constant increase to produce its pleasurable effects. This is a practical distinction of the greatest moment. In large manufacturing towns especially, where mothers of families work in factories, the physician sees its baneful effects on children to whom it is given by the tired nurse. The dose must be constantly increased. Two drops of laudanum—
  492
  that is, one-tenth of a grain of opium—are enough to kill an infant of a month old. But under the sedulous ministrations of the nurse, a dose of 60 drops, equal to three full doses for an adult, is at last tolerated and demanded. In Bradford, the rate of mortality for all classes is high, 25 to 28 per 1,000, as compared with the average in the community of 22. But the mortality of children under five years is out of proportion even to that high standard, 230 per 1,000, as compared with the general English rate of 150. This I know from personal experience to be largely due to opium. But it would be entirely erroneous to measure the mischievous effects of opium merely or mainly by its effects in shortening life. Nor is it on the intellectual faculties that its worst evils primarily and directly fall. It is the manhood, the energy, the will, the concentration of purpose, that in the first place are attacked and undermined. The life-long suicide of Coleridge and De Quincy is painful evidence of this."
  I think that the medical evidence I have quoted goes far to show that the use of opium is attended with much greater evils than those which arise from the use of spirits, fearful as they are; but I would point out that the action of the Government in regard to these two subjects is very different: for, whereas the duties which we impose upon spirits do much to check consumption, all our policy with regard to opium directly tends to stimulate its consumption by the Chinese. That is an important distinction. My hon. Friend has given various proofs of the great evils arising from the use of opium in China. These evils, however, are not confined to China, but extend to our own subjects in India. The evidence of Mr. Sym, a gentleman who had great experience in the cultivation of opium, as agent for the East India Company was—
  "Wherever opium is grown it is eaten, and the more it is grown the more it is eaten. …. We are demoralizing our own subjects in India. Half of the crimes in the opium districts—murders, rapes, and affrays—have their origin in opium eating. One opium eater demoralizes a whole village."
  Some of the most fertile lands in India are given up to the cultivation of opium, and the Government has done everything in its power to encourage the cultivation. The consequence is an increased production, for I find that, while there were 1,000 chests in 1767, there were 57,000 in 1855, and now there are 89,000. Mr. St. George Tucker, an eminent Director of the East India Company, made the following admission—

  493
  "We introduced it (opium) into our own districts where it had not been cultivated before, or where it had been abandoned, and gave our Revenue officers an interest in extending the cultivation in preference to other produce much more valuable and deserving of encouragement."
  Since the subject was brought forward many years ago—in 1843—by the Earl of Shaftesbury, the East India Company had ceased to exist, and the Imperial Government is responsible for everything that goes on in India; and thus, by promoting the growth of the poppy throughout Central Asia, as we have done by paying high prices, and by giving the Native chiefs an interest in producing rather than restricting the cultivation, this country has become accessory to the probable extension of a pernicious habit among a race of men whose well-being ought never to be an object of indifference to us. By encouraging and extending the growth of the poppy in our Provinces and becoming the retail vendors of the drug, we are promoting the introduction and extension of the same pernicious habit among our own subjects. I will now venture to trouble the House with an extract from a Minute of Sir William Muir, Lieutenant Governor of the North-West Provinces, dated the 27th February, 1868, in which referring to the proposed separation of the Indian Government from the traffic in opium, Sir William says—
  "The change would relieve the British Government from the odious imputation of pandering to the vice of China by over-stimulating production, over-stocking the market, and flooding China with the drug, in order to raise a wider and more secure Revenue to itself; an imputation of which, at least on one occasion, I fear that we are not wholly guiltless. …. By retiring from the monopoly, the Government of India will avoid these and all other unseemly imputations. China wants opium, our traders and merchants are ready to supply it. The licence duty will still support the Revenue; and thus the action of Government will be that of chuck, and no longer of stimulus."
  The testimony of Major General Shaw is to the like effect, and points out. that the lands where opium was cultivated are among the best in our Indian dominions, and that consequently we are sacrificing some of those territories which are of great value as food-producing districts to the culture of this deleterious drug. Supposing a famine were imminent in India, would not the Government be to blame for devoting a large extent of the best land there to
  494
  the cultivation of opium? What is the argument by which the maintenance of the opium cultivation is defended? The argument was well put by the hon. Member for Yorkhire (Mr. C. Denison) on the last occasion when the Indian Budget was brought forward. The hon. Member very candidly said—and I honour him for his candour—
  "At the present moment it was idle to discuss the question; we simply could not do without the Revenue from opium:"
  and the fact is there is no argument adduced in favour of the traffic, except that we must have the Revenue derived from it. That is, strictly, the fact of the case. There is a remark I wish to make in reference to the Motion of Lord Shaftesbury in 1843—I wish to ask how we should have stood at the present time if the East India Company tad assented to the views of Lord Shaftesbury? The opium Revenue of India was at that time a mere trifle compared with what it is now. If the House had then accepted that Resolution, and the Indian Government been compelled to place their finances on a more satisfactory basis we should not now be leaning upon this breaking reed of the opium Revenue. The subject has been three times before Parliament. Attention was directed to it in 1857, when the hon. Member for Marylebone (Mr. T. Chambers) gave Notice of Motion with respect to the question; but my hon. Friend unfortunately lost his seat, and the matter was not discussed. A great deal of attention was, however, paid to the subject out-of-doors. I recollect about that time, in company with my hon. Friend opposite, the Member for Merthyr, attending deputations to Lord Stanley, Sir Charles Wood, Mr. Wilson, and Mr. Laing. Between 1843 and 1857 the cultivation of opium had gone on to a great extent, and the Indian Revenue had very much depended upon that source, especially during the latter period. I do not wish to say anything against the East India Company. I have a great admiration for it. I believe the Company were justified in the proud boast made in a Petition presented to this House, and which was written by the eloquent pen of Mr. John Stuart Mill—
  "If the character of the East India Company alone were concerned, your petitioners would be willing to await the verdict of history. They are satisfied that posterity will do them justice."

  495
  But while I entertain this admiration for the Company, I cannot but reprobate its conduct on this question, and I believe that much of the feeling which, caused its extinction had its origin in the agitation to which. I have referred. It was supposed that if the Company was abolished the cultivation of opium would cease. Well, the Company has ceased to exist, and India is now governed by a Secretary of State responsible to Parliament, and what is the result? The opium Revenue has been nearly doubled since 1858. It may be objected that we depend upon this Revenue, and that it will not do to give it up on moral grounds. If, however, we do not give it up, it will give us up. The cultivation of this drug is increasing in the interior of China, and we must look forward to the day when our Indian Revenue will decline and finally cease. I hope Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to look this question fairly in the face, and to take measures by which the Revenues of India will not continue to be based on the existence of this deleterious traffic. It has been well said that what is morally wrong cannot be politically right. On this ground I make my appeal to the House. Many hon. Members are connected with missionary societies belonging to different denominations, which are actuated by one object, to circulate the Bible and preach the Gospel. I ask, is it consistent to go forth with the Bible in one hand and this poisonous drug in the other? I have spoken strongly upon this subject, because I feel strongly. I believe the conduct of the Government with regard to this question is one of the greatest blots to be found in the history of England, reflecting dishonour upon us as a moral, a civilized, and a Christian people; and I hope hon. Members will pause before they give their votes to support a system which disgraces the fair fame of the British nation.
  SIR CHARLES WINGFIELDsaid, it should be clearly understood that the logical conclusion of this Motion must be that they should give up not only the manufacture but the growth of opium. It was just as immoral to raise a Revenue from opium grown spontaneously as from opium grown by the Indian Government; and if the question was to be decided on moral grounds, this Motion involved the suppression of the culti-
  496
  vation of opium entirely, and the relinquishment of all Revenue from so impure a source. But were we bound, by the dictates of morality, to withhold this drug from the Chinese? The Chinese Government and Chinese people did not appear to think so. The Chinese Government had shown their desire to levy a larger Revenue than the present from the Indian opium trade under the recent revision of the Treaty, and the Chinese people had largely increased the cultivation of the poppy. It was surely taking rather too exalted a view of international duty to hold ourselves bound to be more solicitous for the health and morals of the Chinese people than the Chinese were themselves. The people of China would have opium any tow. It had been said that we had given the Chinese this taste for opium; but he begged to point out that the habit of eating opium had been prevalent, from very early times, in all Oriental, countries. But was it, after all, so certain that the effects of opium eating were so prejudicial as they had been represented to be? Its consumption was said to produce physical deterioration. How was that reconciled with the fact that China had such a teeming and industrious population? In India, no doubt, mental torpor and imbecility were sometimes produced by opium eating; but in England the same effects were produced by gin drinking. His experience convinced him that the moderate use of this drug was not more prejudicial or injurious than the moderate use of alcoholic drinks. It was a great mistake to suppose that it could not be used in moderation. The Sikhs were most addicted to opium eating, yet they were the most energetic race in India. But whatever the effect of opium in China, the result was greatly to reduce its consumption in India. The cultivators must bring the drug to the Government factories, and the quantity they could retain surreptitiously was very small. In the whole Presidency of Bengal the annual consumption of 100,000,000 of people did not exceed in value £150,000. Its price was so high that the drug was placed beyond the reach of all but the richer classes. Besides, its cultivation conferred great benefits on the districts where it was carried on. There was no halting-place between the abandonment of the present system and the complete suppression of

  497
  the manufacture. An alternative had been suggested that the cultivation should be entirely free, and that the exclusive privilege of soiling should be given to contractors. The contractors would find it impossible to prevent the growers selling surreptitiously, and the result would be an enormously increased consumption in India. He admitted our Revenue from opium was in a very precarious condition indeed; but the reason Indian opium had maintained its place so far was its superiority in strength and flavour, owing to the excellent method of cultivation adopted in India. The ground for opium required much preparation and high manuring; but, no doubt, the Chinese would soon learn how to grow opium as well as we could, so that if the hon. Member had delayed his Motion for a few years it would have become unnecessary by the disappearance of our opium Revenue.
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present—
  MR. M'ARTHURsaid, he had great pleasure in supporting the Motion. Indeed, he was astonished that there should be any opposition offered to it; for all the facts led to one conclusion—that this pestilent and unholy traffic had inflicted on a large portion of the human race as dire evils as were ever entailed by the slave trade; and, it seemed to him, was supported by very much the same arguments. He did not propose to repeat the moral arguments—he would prefer to offer some considerations on the commercial aspect of the question. In this point of view he could not but think the position taken up by some hon. Gentlemen was most unwise. Look at our exports to China, and compare them with our commercial relations in regard to other countries—say our Australian Colonies. Last year, although the imports from China to this country amounted to £11,217,450, the exports from England to China, with its population of 400,000,000, did not exceed £6,421,957; while the English exports to Australia during the same period—to Australia, with its 2,000,000 of people—were no loss than £12,571,473. The facts spoke for themselves, and showed how the opium trade had deadened the enterprize of the Chinese Empire. The traffic was also exercising a most perni-
  498
  cious influence on the resources of India itself. There was presented to that House a short time ago an abstract of corresspondence which had taken place between the Secretary of State for India and the Governor General of that Empire on the subject of a revision of the Budget statement of 1869. There were some very remarkable statements in that Paper, one of which he would read to the House, as it showed the very unsatisfactory condition in which their Indian Revenue stood. The Governor General said—
  "We stated to your Grace, without reserve, the conclusions and anticipations we had formed with regard to the results of our finance in the past and present year. We have shown that the past year, instead of closing, as was anticipated in the Budget Estimate, with a surplus of £243,550, has closed actually with a deficiency of £2,273,362. During the last three years there has been a constant deficiency, the average amount of which has exceeded £1,900,000."
  And then he went on to state—
  "While the accumulated deficiency of the three years ending 1868–9 has amounted to £5,750,000, the cash balances from our Indian Treasury have fallen from £13,770,000 at the close of 1865 to £10,360,000 at the close of 1869; and, notwithstanding our recent loan of £2,400,000, are at this moment lower than they have been at this season for many years. During the same period our debt has been increased by £6,500,000, of which not more than £3,000,000 have been spent on re-productive works."
  He thought that statement was anything but satisfactory as regarded our position in India financially at the present time; and he believed a great deal of that was to be attributed to the course which they had pursued with regard to this opium traffic in China. He gladly supported the Motion.
  MR. C. B. DENISONsaid, he had not a word to say against the remarks of the hon. Baronet (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) as to the deleterious effects of opium eating; and, if the consideration of the question could be based on moral grounds alone, there were few Members in the House who would not go into the Lobby with the hon. Gentleman. But it was well that the House should understand how large a question this was—how much it was connected with other and much wider considerations. It was intimately connected, not only with the finances of India, but with the trade of England, of India, and of China. The Revenue derived by the Indian Government from opium might be roundly stated at £8,000,000. That was the profit which the Indian Government de-

  499
  rived from its connection with the opium trade. Almost the whole of the opium went to China, and was there sold for a very much higher sum. And it was unquestionable that of the large amount of £11,000,000 which the export trade of China with this country reached, three-fourths were paid for by the price of the opium; and therefore it behoved those who took the China view of the question to ask themselves what would be the position of our China trade if this opium traffic were suddenly and violently put a stop to? As to what had been said in regard to the opium traffic having the effect of diminishing the Chinese demand for our manufactures, he was at a loss to understand how that could be. The recent Report of the Shanghae Chamber of Commerce had proved that at the present moment there was really no demand in the interior of China for our goods, except for certain descriptions of cloth, and hence the narrow proportions that our trade in China had as yet assumed, though he was ready to admit that the opium traffic might have a certain effect in diminishing the Chinese demand for our goods. The gross Revenue of India might be taken at £45,000,000, of which about £8,000,000, as he had said, was derived from opium. Would any hon. Gentleman, who was prepared to go into the Lobby in support of this abstract Resolution, ask himself the question, what would be the result, if so large a branch of Indian Revenue were at once cut off? For he might remind the House, as the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir Charles Wingfield) had done, that there was no half-way between absolute prohibition and the regulation of the trade which now existed—either the growth of opium must be absolutely forbidden, or it must be, as now, recognized and regulated. He could not avoid impressing on the House that, putting aside the moral point of view, the acceptance of this Resolution would be disastrous, not only to the finances and the trade of India, but to the trade of England and of China. The hon. Member for Penrhyn (Mr. R. N. Fowler) had said a great deal about the deleterious effects of opium eating and smoking. All would admit that if we could change human nature and make mankind wise and sober by Act of Parliament, there were a great many things in our own country which
  500
  we should be very glad to see changed. But what would the Chancellor of the Exchequer say if some one were to move an abstract Resolution that the malt duties were pernicious, and ought to be done away?—and there were plenty who took that view on the ground that the cheaper and better we made malt liquor the more the consumption of spirits, particularly gin, would decline. The Chancellor of the Exchequer would say—"I admit your arguments, Gentlemen, but how am I to do without the Revenue?" And that was the answer that must be given by the Under Secretary for India or any other person responsible for its Revenues. It was easy to imagine the dismay that such a Resolution as this would excite in India, embarrassed as her finances already were. It was only within the last 48 hours that the news had come by telegraph that the price of opium had fallen some £20 per chest, which on 90,000 chests represented something very near £2,000,000. With a probable loss of £2,000,000 in this branch of Revenue, and with the whole of India exclaiming against the imposition of a new income tax, what would be the effect on the minds of the Governor General and others responsible for the finances of the country if the news went out that this Resolution had been passed by the House of Commons in all its naked deformity? An abstract Resolution like this, even if passed, could not be carried into effect for a long series of years. The present system could not be done away with except under the fullest and most mature consideration of the sources from which the present Revenues of India were to be maintained. He took the liberty of saying last year, in the debate on the Indian Budget, that if the opium Revenue were from any cause to be suddenly put an end to, there would at once be a stop to every public work and every improvement in that vast country. He reiterated those words on this occasion; and he should be very much surprised indeed if the House, taking a practical view of a great question, allowed itself to be led away—he would not use a disrespectful phrase—by a sentimental idea. He had no doubt that the hon. Gentleman on the Treasury Bench (Mr. Grant Duff) would express, in even stronger language than he could do, his sense of the impolicy of accepting that Resolution.
  MR. W. FOWLERsaid, he thought that if anything could induce the House to vote for the Motion of the hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle, it would be the speech they had just heard. He was fully aware how great was the experience of the hon. Member (Mr. C. B. Denison) in regard to India and its affairs, and no one could have more respect than he had for his opinion; but he confessed that the hon. Gentleman's arguments had greatly astonished him. What the hon. Gentleman said came to this—In the first place, that if this Motion were carried, the trade of India and China, and England's trade with both of those countries, would be disorganized; and, in the next place, that the Indian Government could not do without the money it derived from opium. Those he understood to be the two points of the hon. Gentleman's argument. Now, when a moral question was involved, he maintained that they must let those things take care of themselves. It was an old maxim, which they heard a good deal of about two years ago, that they were to "Be just and fear not;" and he hoped it would not be forgotten now by those who sat on that side of the House, and that they were determined to abide by it. As to the trade question, he thought, they might as well let that alone—his experience was that, whenever that House had attempted to bolster up the trade of the country it had generally made a great mistake; and he thought our trade could very well be left to look after its own interest. He thought the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. M'Arthur) had shown that the weight of the argument was on the other side, and that they were far more likely to have a good trade with China if this Resolution were carried than they had at present. It certainly was very remarkable that our trade with China had not developed more than it had done. He was not prepared to say that opium was the only cause of its non-development; on the contrary, he thought it had many causes; but, among them, it was very likely that I opium was one. At any rate, if the House was convinced that the action of; this country in this case was unjust and unrighteous, it ought to put an end to that action, and leave the trade question to take care of itself. But he confessed that the other point raised by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. C. B. Denison) was one
  502
  of great difficulty. No doubt, the finances of India were in an awkward position—no doubt, if we lost £6,000,000 or £8,000,000 sterling suddenly, we could no longer go on spending that money on public works—unless, indeed, we found some way of diminishing our general expenditure. But the House had to consider not whether there was not a great difficulty on the question of finance, but whether they had not a greater difficulty to encounter in the present state of things; and, whether it was a tolerable thing that this country should do, for the sake of £6,000,000 or £8,000,000 sterling, that which the conscience of the House declared to be unrighteous and unjust. He hoped they would never lose sight of the maxim—nay, the command, Not to do evil that good might come—that command, if applicable anywhere, was surely applicable to a question of trade; and if it were applicable to the opium trade, the House ought not to be asked to give way to the argument that it was a trade by which we gained a great deal of money. The hon. Gentleman opposite, he was quite sure, would not ask any hon. Member, in his individual capacity, to commit a flagrant breach of morality in order to make money; and would he ask the House and the nation to do so collectively? He considered, therefore, that argument to be one that would not bear examination. Whatever the difficulties might be—and he did not deny that they were great—he maintained that it was their duty to meet them, to grapple with them in some way or other, and not to continue to do that which they believed to be wrong. He would rather that we should sanction an Imperial guarantee of an Indian loan, than allow the nation to go on doing that which it considered to be productive of evil, for the sake of swelling the Revenue. To compare the question of a few millions of money with the importance of rightdoing on the part of a great nation like ours, was a mode of proceeding which was wholly unworthy of that House. He did not desire to detain the House by entering into any details; but he could say that, for many years, he had been profoundly convinced that they were doing wrong in continuing that system; and he did hope, therefore, that the House would that night, by an emphatic vote, no longer give its sanction to that which he be-

  503
  lieved to be immoral, for the sake of either money or trade.
  MR. M. CHAMBERSsaid, they had had in the course of the evening, and they now had, a very melancholy exhibition of the interest taken by Members of the House of Commons in one of the most important questions that could possibly be raised; and it was with considerable reluctance that he rose under such mortifying circumstances to address those who were present. The Resolution proposed was righteous and moral, and it was impeded by an attempt to count out the House, and opposed by arguments scarcely worthy of humane politicians. It should be remembered, however, that when the most distinguished orators strove in that House to abolish the slave trade, they were over and over again met by the very same arguments as were used on the present occasion—as, for example, that our trade and our Revenue would suffer by its abolition, and that the commercial and personal interests of many were involved in its continuance. He hoped to be forgiven for stating his view of the question in the plainest possible way. He would ask them, were they inclined to continue a system of poisoning innumerable persons—for that was the real question—they could not brink it—for the purpose of raising a larger Revenue? Were they not bound to condemn and relinquish a Revenue which was derived from a system of poisoning? The opponents of this Motion admitted that opium was poison; but urged they could not pay their way unless they grew it and sold it to the Chinese. If a tradesman were to excuse himself for selling poison to the poor who came to him on the plea that he could not live unless he did so, he would be told that he was a disreputable and dishonest man. A nation or a Government in such a case could not justly do that which would be wrong and wicked in an individual. If the Chinese Government were to ask the Indian Government why it poisoned its subjects, how could the Indian Government answer with any face that it did so because it must make money? It was said that it was necessary to consider how to supply the ways and means for the maintenance of the Indian Empire, and that the Indian Chancellor of the Exchequer could not do so satisfactorily unless he poisoned the Chinese. And., although
  504
  they all agreed that it was wrong to poison the Chinese, yet, as our balance-sheet would otherwise be totally wrong, we had for several years gone on improving and increasing our Revenue by poisoning the Chinese. He would ask the Prime Minister, who was, he observed, kindly sitting in his place for the moment, what the Chinese Government said upon this question? Did they not say we were doing them a serious wrong? Every Report told us that the Chinese Government had been remonstrating for a great length of time against the introduction by us of this enormous quantity of poison into China. We had even gone to war with China on this very account, because they seized a portion of this pernicicious merchandize, and destroyed it as poison. We asserted, in our self-sufficiency and self-conceit, that we were in the right—we asserted that the Chinese were barbarians, and that they were rightly considered as barbarians—and we went to war with them and proved them in the wrong by vanquishing them. He regarded this as one of the most serious questions ever presented to Parliament, and he believed that the Resolution of the hon. Baronet would have the entire concurrence of the whole nation.
  MR. GRANT DUFFsaid, that his hon. Friend who had brought the Question forward (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) had asked the House to condemn the Indian opium Revenue. His hon. Friend had asked the House to take a grave step—one of the very gravest which it could take—with reference to our position in Asia. He did not know whether his hon. Friend was altogether aware of the tremendous character—he used the epithet advisedly—of the proposition which he had submitted to the House; but certainly some of those on whom he reckoned for support were not aware of it. The net average amount of our opium Revenue during the last 5 years, for which the accounts had been laid before Parliament, was £5,781,890. In the year 1867–8—the last for which the accounts had been laid before Parliament—it rose to the great total of £7,049,447, after all expenses had been paid. In short, it amounted to between one-fifth and one-sixth of our whole net Revenue. And the House would observe that, unlike most items of national Revenue, these millions were not the product of a tax

  505
  upon our own subjects; they were a contribution in aid of the wealth and prosperity of a country the responsibility of whose government had been undertaken by the Parliament of Great Britain, arising from a tax, not on the necessaries of life, but on the luxuries of a people for whose wealth and prosperity the British Parliament was no more directly responsible than was the American House of Representatives. They were a contribution paid chiefly by China, partly by the Indo-Chinese Peninsula and the Eastern Islands, to help us to make India what we desired her to be, and what, if rash hands did not interfere, she might well become—one of the most prosperous portions of the earth's surface. Let him suppose for a moment that the House were to listen to the proposal of his hon. Friend. One of three things would result from his maleficent benevolence—either the loss occasioned by the destruction of this great feeder of its prosperity would have to be made up by obtaining from some other quarter an equally large subsidy in aid of India; or an enormous new tax would have to be levied upon India; or the I development of the resources of that country—so full of resources as yet imperfectly developed—would have to be proceeded with at a rate so slow as to drive all its well-wishers in Europe and all its most intelligent inhabitants to despair. Take the first of these three possible things. Was it worth seriously discussing—was it conceivable—that the British taxpayer—not too lightly burdened already—would allow himself to be mulcted to the tune of some £6,000,000 annually in order that he might pay a benevolence to India? Take the second possible thing. Would it be tolerable that to enforce a view of morality which was not theirs, which had never, indeed, been accepted by any large portion of the human race, we should grind an already poor population to the very dust with new taxation? His hon. Friend's charity certainly began very far from home. Take the third possible thing. If we were to give up the powerful lever for raising the position of India which this opium Revenue gave us—if we were to give up the better part of our golden dream of improvement and civilization—would it not be wise to reconsider the whole question of our connection with India. Would it
  506
  be worth while to continue under the burden of a responsibility which already weighed us down, if we felt that at every step we were hampered by want of means? Why, already we found it extremely difficult to make the two ends meet. A year of surplus in India was a most unusual phenomenon; and if at one blow the opium Revenue was struck away, the Indian Empire would be on the high road to bankruptcy. Even the gradual diminution of our receipts from opium—which was, as he showed the House last year, a very possible contingency, though our information from China, that land of mystery and half knowledge, is not conclusive—made all persons connected with the administration of India look very grave indeed. A now tax which should not be economically injurious or politically dangerous, and which should bring in a considerable amount of money, was a desideratum on which Indian financiers had not yet hit. His hon. Friend, however, had no compassion for the Indian taxpayer, none for the holders of our Government and railway stocks, whose property he was consciously or unconsciously threatening; none for our merchants and millowners, who wished to open up India that they might get raw products from it and send manufactured goods to it. He had no compassion for any of the other countless interests that were more or less concerned in that great country; he said—Fiat justitia, ruat cœlum. Set but the British Parliament free from any suspicion of promoting the consumption of the accursed thing, and all else might be left to be set right as best it might. Well, then, he would meet his hon. Friend upon his own ground, and examine, first, how far the consumption of the so-called accursed thing was promoted by our action in India; and, secondly, whether the so-called accursed thing was an accursed thing at all. And at this point he must state clearly to the House what the relations of the Indian Government to opium cultivation and the opium trade really were. The Indian Government was interested in opium in three different ways. It derived a small income from licences given to retail dealers to sell opium—a drug comparatively little consumed in India. It derived a very large income from what was known as the "Bengal monopoly," and from the tax upon the opium which

  507
  found its way to the Bombay seaboard. Of the first of these he should say no more. It formed a fractional part of the Excise Revenue, and did not figure under the head of opium in our accounts. Of the other two sources of opium revenue he must speak at more length. The "Bengal monopoly" dated from the first years of the present century, and was worked in this way. No one was allowed to cultivate opium without a licence; but every person who pleased might have a licence upon undertaking to deliver the juice at a fixed price to the Government factories, which were situated at Patna for the North-West Provinces, and at Benares for Bengal proper. The cultivation of the poppy was a very favourite one, being decidedly remunerative upon soil which suited it. After the juice was scraped off and collected it was carried home, mixed, and sent in jars to the Government depôt, where it was prepared with infinite care, the object being to produce as good a quality as possible; for it was upon quality, rather than quantity, that our profits depended. China alone could grow any quantity of opium, had long grown much opium, and was now growing vast quantities of opium. Our object, however, he said, was to produce an opium so good that those who chose to buy from us might, at least, get an excellent article of its kind. When the opium had gone through the process of manufacture it was packed in chests containing each 1401b., and was sent down to Calcutta, where it was disposed of at monthly sales by auction—the profit to the Government consisting of the difference between the price it paid for the crude poppy juice and the price it received for the manufactured article, less all the expenses of manufacture and transport. Most of the opium sold at Calcutta was bought by native Indian merchants, who sent it to China; but we had no control over their arrangements, and, as a matter of fact, a good deal of it went elsewhere. Of course, there was a great deal to be said against this Bengal monopoly on politico-economical grounds. He supposed no one would invent such a system now-a-days; but we did not invent the system—we inherited it; and he was quite content to rest our defence for continuing it partly on the fact that most authorities told us that to alter it would cause, at
  508
  least for a time, serious disturbance to the Revenue, and partly on the fact that we had had, during the last 20 years, such an enormous number of changes to make in India which were absolutely necessary that we well might be excused for not altering anything that we could avoid altering. He was sure that there must be over 100 Members in that House who had seen, since they entered public life, almost every great institution connected with our government of India altered from its very foundation. Of the Indian political edifice as it was in 1852 he thought he might say, with nearly literal truth, that one stone was not left upon another. Then he came to the Bombay opium—so called, not because it was made in the Presidency of Bombay, but because it found its way to the outer world through the port of Bombay. Nearly all of this was made, not in our own territories, but in various native States in the regions known as Malwa and Guzerat. Before this opium could reach the sea it must pass through our possessions, and we did not allow it to pass through until it had paid us a heavy transit duty—a duty which had been as high as Rs. 700 a chest, and which stood now at Rs. 600 a chest. Passes for this opium were issued at Indore for the Malwa portion, at Ahmedabad for the Guzerat portion; and these passes cleared the drug till it was placed on shipboard. This was a much simpler and better arrangement than that which prevailed in North-Eastern India. If the circumstances and the natural configuration of our dominions there at all resembled the corresponding circumstances and the configuration of the other side of India, he should certainly not now have to speak of the Bengal opium monopoly as of an existing institution. As it was, no one, except those who had been working the system all their lives, was, so far as he was aware, particularly enamoured of the Bengal monopoly. But none of its opponents had as yet convinced the Indian authorities that a change could be effected without a great sacrifice, at least for a time. Supposing it were found possible to adopt a plan akin to that in force on the Bombay side, the connection of the Government of India with opium would be altogether what it almost was at present—that of a Power which said to the consumers of opium—

  509
  "It is no business of ours to prevent you indulging in your favourite luxury; but, if you do indulge in it, we mean to take uncommonly good care that by indulging in it you shall largely contribute to the improvement of India." That was altogether our attitude with regard to the opium in Western India, and it was almost our attitude with regard to the Bengal monopoly, for, as Mr. John Stuart Mill had well pointed out, the Bengal monopoly operated virtually as an export duty. It must be obvious to everyone that the fact of our raising a large Revenue from opium tended not to encourage, but to discourage its use. He really did not see what we could do to discourage it that we did not do, unless we were to forbid the cultivation of the plant altogether. ["Hear!"] The hon. Member who cheered was very generous with other people's property; but that would be to inflict an enormous fine upon our own territories and to do a frightful injustice to the population beyond our own territories. He could not believe, indeed, that anyone would seriously ask that Holkar and the other Native Princes in whose territories the Bombay opium was grown should be compelled to impoverish their subjects by forbidding them to grow the poppy; and, oven if we wished, we had now no treaty rights that would enable us to do so. We once had; but the enforcement of them led to such alarming results, and came, indeed, so near to raising up in Central India a class of men as dangerous and desperate as the Pindarees, that the attempt was abandoned in the year 1830. Now then, that he had explained how far the Government in India and the British Parliament through them was really concerned with the so-called accursed thing, he came to consider whether the so-called accursed thing was really an accursed thing at all. He was afraid that he could not hope that any remarks he might make would produce the slightest effect upon the mind of his hon. Friend. His hon. Friend was so bitter an enemy of alcohol, that it was hardly natural that he should listen with patience to anything short of a Philippic against opium. His hon. Friend's views, however, on the subject of spirituous liquors were not the views of the majority of that House; and he thought that most Members present would have approached the consideration
  510
  of the important question to which his hon. Friend had called attention under the impression that if it was indeed true that alcohol and opium, and the several classes of powerful agents to which they belonged, were really simply evil, the world had waited a very long time for this discovery. He asserted, then, in the most decided manner, that there was not anything like conclusive evidence that opium used in moderation was at all productive of evil to its chief consumers, the Chinese. And here, as the hon. Gentleman had quoted so many authorities, the House would perhaps allow him to read one or two extracts in illustration and corroboration of what he had stated. The first of those was from one of the books of Mr. Fortune, the well-known traveller in China. That writer said—
  "From my own experience, I have no hesitation in saying that the number of persons who use opium to excess has been very much exaggerated; it is quite true that a very large quantity of the drug is yearly imported from India, but then we must take into consideration the vast extent of the Chinese Empire and its population of 300,000,000. I have, when travelling in different parts of the country, often been in company with opium-smokers, and am consequently able to speak with some confidence with regard to their habits. I well remember the impressions I had on this subject before I left England, and my surprise when I was first in the company of an opium-smoker, who was enjoying his favourite stimulant. When the man lay down upon the couch and began to inhale the fumes of the opium I observed him attentively, expecting in a minute or two to see him in his 'third heaven of bliss;' but no, after he had taken a few whiff's, he quietly resigned the pipe to one of his friends, and walked away to his business. Several others of the party did exactly the same. Since then I have often seen the drug used, and I can assert that in the great majority of cases it was not immoderately indulged in. At the same time, I am well aware that, like the use of ardent spirits in our own country, it is frequently carried to a most lamentable excess."
  His next quotation would be from Balfour's Cyclopœdia of India, as follows:—
  "Opium is at present largely consumed in the Malayan islands, in China, in the Indo Chinese countries, and in a few parts of Hindustan, much in the same way in which wine, ardent spirits, malt liquor, and cider are consumed in Europe. Its deleterious character has been much insisted on, but generally by parties who have had no experience of its effects. Like any other narcotic or stimulant, the habitual use of it is amenable to abuse, and, as being more seductive than other stimulants, perhaps more so; but this is certainly the utmost that can safely be charged to it. Thousands consume it without any pernicious result, as thousands do wine and spirits without

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  any evil consequence. I know of no person of long experience and competent judgment who has not come to this common-sense conclusion. Dr. Oxley, a physician and naturalist of eminence, and who has had a longer experience than any other man of Singapore, where there is the highest rate of consumption of the drug, gives the following opinion:—'The inordinate use, or rather abuse, of the drug most decidedly does bring on early decrepitude, loss of appetite, and a morbid state of all the secretions; but I have seen a man who had used the drug for 50 years in moderation without any evil effects, and one man I recollect in Malacca who had so used it was upwards of 80. Several in the habit of smoking it have assured me that, in moderation, it neither impaired the junctions nor shortened life, at the same time fully admitting the deleterious effects of too much.' There was not a word of this that would not be equally true of the use and abuse of ardent spirits, and perhaps even of tobacco. The historian of Sumatra, whose experience and good sense could not be questioned, came early to the very same conclusion. The superior curative virtues of opium were undeniable, and the question of its superiority over ardent spirits appeared to him to have been for ever set at rest by the high authority of Sir Benjamin Brodie, who said—'The effect of opium when taken into the stomach is not to stimulate, but to soothe the nervous system. It may be otherwise in some instances, but these are rare exceptions to the general rule. The opium eater is in a passive state, satisfied with his own dreamy condition while under the influence of the drug. He is useless, but not mischievous.'"
  His third and last quotation would be from a Report by the First Assistant and Opium Examiner "on the poppy cultivation and the Benares Opium Agency," in the Selections from Records of the Bengal Government in 1851—
  "In concluding, I would offer a few observations on the subject of the influence which the practice of opium-smoking in China is supposed to exert upon the moral and physical constitution of the inhabitants of that country. This question, be it observed, can never be settled in a manner to satisfy impartial and philosophic inquirers until the demonstrative evidence of statistics shall be brought to bear upon the subject, and until that shall be the case we must rest satisfied with the evidence of unprejudiced observers. It has been too much the practice with narrators who have treated the subject to content themselves with drawing the sad picture of the confirmed opium debauchee, plunged in the last state of moral and physical exhaustion, and, having formed the premises of their argument on this exception, to proceed at once to involve the whole practice in one sweeping condemnation. But this is not the way in which the subject can be treated; as rational would it be to paint the horrors of delirium tremens, and upon that evidence to condemn at once the entire use of alcoholic liquors. The question for determination is not what are the effects of opium used to excess, but what are its effects on the moral and physical constitution of the mass of the individuals who use it habitually and in moderation, either as a
  512
  stimulant to sustain the frame under fatigue, or as a restorative and sedative after labour, bodily or mental. Having passed three years in China, I may be allowed to state the results of my observation, and I can affirm thus far, that the effects of the abuse of the drug do not come very frequently under observation, and that when cases do occur the habit is frequently found to have been induced by the presence of some painful chronic disease, to escape from the sufferings of which the patient has fled to this resource. As regards the effects of the habitual use of the drug on the mass of the people, I must affirm that no injurious results are visible. The people generally are a muscular and well-formed race, the labouring portion being capable of great and prolonged exertion under a fierce sun, in an unhealthy climate. Their disposition is cheerful and peaceable, and quarrels and brawls are rarely heard among even the lower orders, while in general intelligence they rank deservedly high amongst Orientals."
  It would be easy to multiply quotations, but he would not do so. Anyone who cared to pursue the subject might, by turning to Hansard for 1843, find some others ready to his hand in the speeches that were delivered during the opium debate of that year. On the whole, after consulting the best authorities to whom he had had access, he had come to the conclusion that neither the importation of opium into China, nor the growth of the poppy in China, was an evil to that country to anything like the same degree that his hon. Friend imagined—if, indeed, they were evils at all to that tea-drinking population. No doubt, too much money might be spent by the Chinese on opium, as too much money was unquestionably spent in this country on alcoholic liquors; but as firmly as he believed that the moderate use of alcoholic liquors was harmless, not to say beneficial, in the North of Europe, so firmly did he believe that the moderate use of opium was harmless, not to say beneficial, through vast regions of China. Pushed to an excess the use of alcohol produced terrible results which they all knew too well; pushed to an excess the use of opium brought results less familiar to them, but not less terrible to the vast majority of Chinese opium smokers. He was convinced that their favourite indulgence brought no more evil than did the moderate use of wine to persons in this country; and on the side of opium there was this great advantage—that even its immoderate use did not tend to incite the opium smoker to crime. Unlike the drunkard of Western Europe, he was his own

  513
  enemy, but he was dangerous to no one else. He confessed he very much distrusted the views of Gentlemen who thought that they and the select company who shared their opinions were wiser than whole populations about matters relating to the daily lives and the physical well-being of those populations. There was something in the quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus, however doubtfully it might have been applied. The taste for one or more of the powerful agents, narcotic or stimulant, which they were discussing to-night, was as widely spread as it was deeply seated in the human constitution; and when the vegetarian abused meat, or the total abstainer alcohol and opium, a good and sufficient answer seemed to be one which had been held a good and sufficient answer in graver matters—securus judicat; orbis terrarum. There was but one point more to which he thought he needed to allude, and it was this—The opium Revenue still laboured under the disadvantage of being supposed in many quarters to be levied on a commodity which was smuggled into China; but that was not so—the trade was now a perfectly legal one, under certain restrictions; and if a large party in China were hostile to the poppy, a largo and apparently a growing party were strongly in its favour. The stubborn plant had outlived the denunciations not only of Pekin, but of the great enemy of Pekin, the leader of that extraordinary insurrection which so lately wrapped China in blood and fire. He thought it would outlive the denunciations even of his hon. Friend. Contempsit Catilinœ gladios—he would not be so uncivil as to finish the quotation. To sum up in one sentence his reply to the Motion, it seemed to him not desirable that, in order either to confer an imaginary benefit upon China—a benefit which, if it were a benefit, would speedily be neutralized by the action of the Persians and of the Chinese themselves—or in order to gratify a small section of theorists at home, they should ruin the finances of India, excite discontent in that country, and throw on the shoulders of the British taxpayer the whole responsibility of our Indian debt. Parliament called into existence in 1858 a body which it specially charged with the protection of the finances of India, and he thought they should reflect much and long, as well
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  for the sake of England as of India, before they opposed its unanimous opinion. The growth of the poppy in China and the powerlessness of the central Government to prevent it, were likely to give us trouble enough without the efforts of his hon. Friend, who, more cruel than the Spanish nurses, did not merely put his elbow in the stomach of the patient to shorten his agony, but strangled him as soon as he showed symptoms of a little indisposition. He hoped the House would think twice before taking the strong step of condemning the Indian opium Revenue; and he begged, in conclusion, to move the Previous Question.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid, that no one could have listened to the wonderful speech of his hon. Friend, who, in the most positive manner, had set down the supporters of this Motion as ignorant of the subject, without being struck by the possibility that he was not himself perfect master of it. Like the opium smoker, he had taken only a "few whiffs,"—or, perhaps, he had swallowed the opium, for he had entirely forgotten what had been the effect of their encouraging the cultivation of opium. Had his hon. Friend forgotten the wars into which this country had been plunged, simply through forcing upon the people of China a drug which they did not want? The speech of his hon. Friend reminded him of the defence which people formerly set up for the slave trade. He had heard the very same arguments urged in defence of slavery 80 years ago which his hon. Friend had used that night in support of the opium traffic. The cultivation of opium by the Government of India, which had stimulated a noxious and an illegal trade with a friendly Power, seemed to him one of those public acts which disgraced our country. No doubt there was a lawful use of opium; but there was also an unlawful use: and he considered that they had been guilty of aiding in the demoralization of a portion of the Chinese population by stimulating the unlawful use of it. At the same time, he was no advocate for throwing open the cultivation of opium, the effect of which would be to produce even greater practical evils; but he thought they ought to impose in Bengal, as they did elsewhere in India, a heavy tax on the manufacture and sale of opium, which would produce in itself a Revenue, while it would relieve the na-

  515
  tional conscience of complicity with, the traffic. The Indian Revenue being in a depressed condition, was no valid argument for continuing to do a moral wrong. He was certain that before many years had passed away they would get rid of the doctrinaire principle of the Ministry, and that the common sense and conscience of the country would prevent the continuation of a national wrong for the sake of Revenue.
  MR. D. DALRYMPLEsaid, that the real question was, whether the Chinese wanted opium or not?—and he thought that, as a matter of fact, there could be no question that they both liked it and required it. It mattered little to the Chinese from what quarter they obtained it so long as they got it as cheaply as possible. The mischief that opium did arose from its abuse not its use. All nations in the world used some stimulant or other—bang, hashish, opium, or gin;—and if the Chinese would use opium, why should not India send it, if she could do so better and cheaper than any other country? Opium was not, as some supposed, confined to the poor; the rich used it; and the mercantile classes took it as regularly in China as the mercantile classes in this country took a glass of sherry. Then they were told that there was a strong feeling on the part of the Chinese Government against the introduction of opium. That was the case 30 years ago, but it was not so now; now they allowed the growth of the poppy in their own dominions, and they sought to impose a heavy duty only in order to protect what might be called the opium interest in China. He believed that if the hon. Member for Carlisle (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) would consent to leave the question alone he would find that in a few years what he called the moral evil would cure itself, and China would grow its own opium.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The question has been very fully debated. My hon. Friend the Under Secretary for India (Mr. Grant Duff) has made a very able speech; but I am unwilling to leave upon his shoulders the exclusive responsibility of a matter that not only concerns the Indian Department, but in which the whole British Government ought—at least by one of its representatives—to take its share, because this cannot be considered as a departmental matter. I think my hon. Friend is per-
  516
  fectly right in this, among the other propositions in his speech—that if the House be really prepared to affirm this Motion, as is proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle, it ought also to be prepared to enter into a matter of account with the Indian Government, and to settle and determine, upon its own responsibility, in what way those pecuniary relations are to be preserved which this Motion would undoubtedly disturb. In the first place, with regard to the appeal made to me by, among others, my hon. Friend the Member for Perth (Mr. Kinnaird), about the wars which have grown out of questions connected with the opium trade, do not let it be supposed for one moment that there now continues that state of things out of which those most unhappy and most discreditable transactions—to say the least—arose 10, 20, or 30 years back. That state of things has totally and absolutely disappeared. It rested entirely upon the law in China, according to which the views of the central Government of that country were determinedly opposed to the introduction of opium into that country upon any terms, although, at the very same time that its prohibitions were in force, we were constantly told by witnesses, whom it was difficult to confute, that the growth of opium was allowed in certain parts of the country; and it was unquestionable that its introduction was tolerated, connived at, and made a matter of private profit by its agents. Out of that state of things wars have grown which form a mournful chapter in the history of our Oriental transactions. But that state of things departed once and for all when the Chinese Government arrived at the wise resolution that, under the circumstances of the case, it was not possible for them to struggle against an appetite so strong and a tendency so decided, as that which possessed a large portion of the Chinese people; and, consequently, they determined to deal with opium as a commercial commodity, and to admit it into the country upon payment of a duty. From the moment that was done the question of the growth of opium became wholly detached from all political considerations, and became a matter of fiscal arrangement. This is not unimportant; I because during the time, which some of us have the melancholy privilege of recollecting, this subject has been fre-

  517
  quently debated in this House, and when even a generation back this House discussed the question of the tendency of the opium trade to disturb the peaceful relations between Great Britain and China, it was on that point that the principal stress was laid. A debate took place in 1843 in which Lord Shaftesbury moved a Resolution condemning the opium trade as it then existed in India; but the ground which he selected for his main point of attack upon the opium trade was—
  "That it is the opinion of this House that the continuance of the trade in opium, and the monopoly of its growth in the territories of British India, is destructive of all relations of amity between England and China."—[3 Hansard, lxviii. 362.]
  Members of Parliament felt that it was on that ground a fit and proper subject to be brought under discussion here, with a view to see whether a speedy solution of it could be obtained. The treatment of the present Motion does not require the same decision. I think the Government have, by my hon. Friend moving the Previous Question, put to the House a very moderate and an easily - sustained proposition—namely, that the sweeping Resolution proposed by the hon. Member for Carlisle is one that ought not to be adopted, at all events without a careful Parliamentary inquiry. Such an inquiry must embrace many branches of the question that my hon. Friend (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) has hardly touched upon; and the first of them would be the nature of opium and its use, and whether the use of opium is necessarily connected with its abuse. If that inquiry be made, I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle will not be Chairman of the Committee, because, excellent as he is in every other relation, he is merciless in his dealings with that portion of his fellow - creatures who are inclined to the greater or less use of stimulants, so that he cannot be an altogether impartial judge. But a great question is here involved—Is the use of opium to be treated as analogous to the use of other stimulants in which a large portion of mankind find it almost necessary to indulge, or has opium something peculiar in its own nature broadly separated from tobacco, or alcoholic liquors, so that we ought to distinguish it from all other stimulants, and adopt in regard to it an entirely exceptional method of legislation? Both
  518
  the "Aye" and the "No" of that proposition are very soundly asserted. It is I easy to find painful, horrible, heartrending descriptions of the effect produced by an excessive use of opium, and at the same time we may be given to understand that that effect is general; but, on the other hand, there is much evidence to contradict that statement, and to shaw that, although the use of opium is undoubtedly attended with excess in certain cases, and although that excess is in China what the use of alcohol undoubtedly is in this country—a most fertile source of disgrace, misery, sin, and crime—yet that they are upon a par, and that there is a legitimate and reasonable use of both opium and alcohol. Well, is my hon. Friend (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) in a condition to ask the House upon his view of this important subject to treat it as one that has been already settled, and accordingly to proceed to a vote which undoubtedly treats opium as a thing entirely distinct from alcohol, or any other stimulant? Undoubtedly my hon. Friend may rely upon his own personal consistency, and I know very well that there is nothing which any man can say against opium that my hon. Friend is not ready to say against alcohol. But let my hon. Friend distinguish between his own personal capacity—in which, no doubt, he is totus teres atque rotundus against the whole world—and the character in which he appears to-night as one endeavouring to obtain the voice of the House of Commons in favour of his own views; because, I affirm, that if we are to denounce the use of opium as something which is universally, essentially, and irretrievably bad, that must be done after it has been proved that the use of opium is to be broadly distinguished from the use of every other stimulant—a point which is not settled yet. That is a sufficient reason, if there was no other, why we should vote for the Motion, which would enable us, at all events, to examine carefully into the matter. Let the House consider for a moment our position with regard to the Government and Council of India, upon whom we have put the charge of providing for the necessities of that country. Is it possible that this great Assembly can, at a moment's notice, come in and condemn 15 per cent of the Revenue of India—a Revenue which is even now

  519
  scarcely equal to the expenditure of that country—and can at the same time shrink from its undoubted duty of pointing out the policy by which effect is to be given to this principle, and showing how the financial wants of India are to be met? This is quite a different case from that which sometimes happens when a Member of the House condemns a British tax—if that is done by Motion the House does not always receive it with favour—but it is a matter broadly distinct from the case before us, because the Ministers of the Crown who sit here hold Office during the pleasure of the House, and cannot hold Office when they have not its confidence, and they, therefore, are the persons to whom the House has a right to look for the purpose of supplying whatever is necessary in order to meet the wants of the country when the representatives of the people have thought fit to cut off one of the customary channels of supply. This is not the plan of the Indian Government; it is the Council of India that is responsible for the finances of India. It does not hold Office during your pleasure; it does not depend upon your confidence. You may, indeed, cripple its action, or endeavour to do so; but if you fail you greatly compromise your own dignity. You have not the power to point to that body of men and say—"They are our servants; we have only to withhold the taxes, which we will not permit our constituents to pay; it is their business to provide money in some other way." You have no such right; the people of India are not your constituents; and you have no such control over the Council. This is a very serious matter as regards the responsibility of this House. Nothing could be more ruinous, and few things could be more discreditable than for you to pass a vote which, on the one hand, must remain an idle expression of opinion without practical result, or else, if it were acted upon, must simply have the effect of throwing the finances of India into confusion, and greatly compromising the condition, the welfare, and even, possibly, the peace and security of that country. Again, with regard to the people of India, a state of things having arisen in which a country inhabited by 150,000,000 of people derives an enormous advantage, which has lasted long, what is the title of the House of Commons to deprive them of that advan-
  520
  tage? This is one of the most remarkable cases which the whole fiscal history of the world presents. I do not suppose there is, or ever has been, a country—probably there never has been another country in the world—in which £6,000,000 of its Revenue has been derived from a particular article, of which you could say, with so close an approximation to the truth—without any violation whatever of political justice, that the £6,000,000 was virtually and substantially paid by the inhabitants of another country, who did not complain of the burden. Until you have gone through the preliminary inquiry, which you have not attempted, and supplied all the proof I demand of the intolerable nature of opium, as a thing that ought to be absolutely proscribed, as something the use of which is impossible, so that all use must be abuse—until and unless you shall show that to perfect demonstration, what right have you take away from the people of India the immensely valuable assistance they derive from this £6,000,000 of Revenue? The other day my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was so happy as to possess a surplus of something like £6,000,000: if the hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle succeeds in carrying this Resolution is he ready to propose a second, to the effect that the £6,000,000 shall be handed over to the Indian Treasury to supply the first year's deficiency due to the abandonment of the opium Revenue? I put this question to him as a test of his sincerity. I see the seconder of the Motion is willing. But of these two Resolutions let us take the second first. Let us first vote upon the question that our surplus of £6,000,000 shall be thrown into the Indian Treasury to meet its deficiency. If my hon. Friend succeeds in carrying that Resolution, we shall have much less difficulty in discussing the other. Again, until you have proved that this drug is wholly intolerable and ought to be absolutely proscribed, as productive of unmixed mischief, you have no moral right to deprive a considerable portion of the people of India, who are engaged in the cultivation of it, of what is probably their only means of subsistence. But let us look for a moment at the Motion of my hon. Friend. It says that the House condemns the system by which a large portion of the Indian Re-

  521
  venue is raised from opium. We must consider what we can do under this Resolution. I do not know what alteration of the Indian Government Act of 1858 would be necessary before it could be obeyed; but, if it is to be obeyed, it requires of us nothing but this—that we shall simply cease to raise Revenue from opium. Why does not my hon. Friend seek to stop the growth of opium in India? Suppose we cease to raise a Revenue from opium, what will be the. effect? We cease to impose a transit duty on the opium of the North-west; we cease to exercise what is called the Government monopoly in respect of the opium of the North-east; and what is the effect but an enormous stimulus to the trade? My hon. Friend has not told us whether he is ready to propose the prohibition of the cultivation of the poppy; if he is not, all his artillery recoils upon himself, for it is plain the effect of his Motion would be to immensely stimulate the trade in opium, and to increase the consumption of it. If he admits—and I do not think he can deny—the force of that objection, he must remodel his Resolution, and introduce the element of prohibition to make it effectual for his own purposes, and the necessity for doing this furnishes a strong argument in favour of the Motion for the Previous Question. If he is not prepared for prohibition his case is hopeless; if he is, he is not much better. By prohibition you deprive the Government of India of a very large Revenue; you disable it from meeting its engagements; you compel it to impose very heavy taxes upon a country already too much burdened; and you deprive a portion of the people of their means of employment in the raising of this commodity, on which they are very dependent; and with regard to the opium of the Northwest you will forbid the transit, and you will offer to the smuggler the moderate premium of 600 rupees a chest, or 8s. per pound weight, under which an enormous contraband trade will grow. Does not my hon. Friend see that, supposing he could stop the growth of opium in the whole Indian peninsula, his measure would immensely stimulate the growth of it in China? Proposing to himself an end dictated only by benevolence, he has not considered the moans by which alone it is possible that end could be attained Under these circumstances, I am quite
  522
  sure the House will avoid—as they frequently have to avoid—the snare set by proposing an abstract Resolution of this nature. As a rule, this House proceeds by Bill, and not by Resolution. The framer of a Bill is under the necessity of thinking out and through all parts of his subject, and of presenting it to the House in such a manner as will bear testimony that he has thought it through, and will give the House some means of judging whether his means are adapted and well-proportioned to his ends. The Resolution of my hon. Friend reads glibly enough; but if put into a Bill it would present a meagre appearance. What is the difference as regards the House? These Resolutions are brought on one after another—a dozen of them upon a dozen different subjects, in the course of a single evening, and we are called upon, at a moment's notice, to pledge ourselves irrevocably to the utterance of opinions which I say are subject to doubt and hesitation in every way that can be conceived, and which ought never to be entertained with a view to adoption unless they have been subjected to severe scrutiny. No such scrutiny can be applied to my hon. Friend's Motion on the present occasion. He has not supplied us with those first elements of conviction in regard to this drug, which it is his absolute business and obligation to separate entirely from every other stimulant, before he can call upon us to treat it exceptionally. Without wounding the feelings of the hon. Member by negativing his Motion—without dealing in positive and dogmatic assertion on our own side—I think we are justified in pointing out to the House the serious responsibility under which the affirmation of this Resolution would place us, and inviting them to take the safe and prudent course of determining that, without preliminary inquiry, and without clearing up many points on which we are in the dark, we will not undertake to commit ourselves to a judgment in a matter so solemn and so important.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, that no doubt at the first blush the Resolution of the hon. Member for Carlisle was one which it was not very easy to resist. But it was impossible that the House could shut out from consideration the fact that a large portion of the Revenue of India was raised upon opium. No doubt it was true that a very considerable number

  523
  of the Chinese—who were the wisest people in the world—insisted upon making an improper use of this article, and that they made beasts of themselves: and therefore we were asked to deprive the people of India of a very considerable Revenue. Now he would put this question—"Are we the people that can honestly do it?" What do we do at home? how many millions do we raise upon the article gin? how many of our people drink gin, and make themselves beasts as much as the Chinese? He could not separate the two questions. If the hon. Baronet carried a Resolution that no more money should be raised from gin, and if people at home were ready to put their hands into their pockets for supplying the deficiency in the Revenue, then he thought we could go with clean hands to the black gentlemen 16,000 miles away and say—"You shall find money for your Revenue some other way." Then we should be acting honestly. But so long as we raised so many millions of Revenue from alcohol, and our people made beasts of themselves with it, he did not think the House could honestly assent to such a Motion as that before them. We were a white people, and we called ourselves a Christian people, and he thought we should pluck the beam out of our own eye before we sought to pick out the mote that was in our black brother's eye.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSON,in reply, said, he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the colour of the skin made no difference in the sin. As to the criticism of the Prime Minister, he (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) had quoted the evidence of doctors, of East India Directors, and of a Select Committee of this House, in order to show the injurious nature of the traffic in opium. Such evidence ought to be quite sufficient to convince anybody who did not sit on the Treasury Bench, and probably they would be convinced by no evidence whatever. As to the prohibition mentioned by the Prime Minister, if we allowed the Chinese Government to do so, they would prohibit the importation of opium, and that of itself would stop the growth. Then the right hon. Gentleman said the Resolution would interfere with the whole finances of India. But he merely wished to condemn the system, leaving the Government to carry out the Resolution in the spirit in which it had been adopted
  524
  by the House. He denied that it was his duty to carry out the scheme. What were great statesmen put upon the front Bench for? The argument from the Treasury Bench had been nothing but money, money, money, regardless of morality and Christian duty. He would tell the Prime Minister that when this debate was read to-morrow the people of England would be astonished at the political morality put forward from the Treasury Bench. He appealed, however, from that Bench to the House, and hoped that the House of Commons, representing the nobler instincts of the people, would declare by their vote that this national disgrace should no longer continue.
  Previous Question put, "That that Question be now put."—(Mr. Grant Duff.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 46; Noes 150: Majority 104.

PARLIAMENT—SLIGO BOROUGH WRIT.
COLONEL FRENCH,in rising to move
"That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Sligo, in the room of Major Knox, whoso Election has been determined to be void,"
said, under ordinary circumstances he should not have thought it necessary to make any Motion upon the subject, but have left the matter in the hands of the Government. The seat, however, had now been vacant for twelve months; the Report of the Election Commissioners, following the Report of the Election Judge, had been upon the Table for a considerable time, and yet the Government did not seem inclined to move. Accordingly, he thought it right to introduce this Motion, with a view of drawing from the Government a declaration of their intention either to allow the issue of the writ, or to take ulterior measures, with a view of disfranchising the borough. He was one of those who had always looked with suspicion upon the power claimed in these days to suspend the issue of writs, believing that practice to be altogether unconstitutional. Parliament was so jealous as to the completeness of the representation of the different boroughs that it had even authorized the Speaker, at a time when Parliament was not sitting,

525
to issue a writ to till up a vacancy. Sligo was a place of considerable importance at the time of the Union—the town then returned two Members—and continued to elect upright and honourable representatives, until of late years, he was sorry to say, it had been corrupted by English gold and the official influence of a Lord of the Treasury. The Report went fully into the circumstances of recent elections; but it deserved notice that the Report was only signed by two of the Commissioners, the Chairman of the Commission having been allowed by the Government to go off and seek the favours of another constituency—a proceeding which occasioned some little surprise. The result, however, of all their inquiries, and of all the coercion brought to bear upon men to disclose the events of their past lives, showed a very small comparative amount of bribery and corruption—about 3 per cent of the registered constituency. Nobody could object to the disfranchisement of those who had actually received bribes: personation and undue influence had also been reported; but that was no reason why the writ should be withheld. He had no objection to any course the Government might think proper to pursue; but with the present strong Government, when the Prime Minister might be considered master of a hundred legions, they ought rather to employ themselves in purifying the constituency than in destroying the representation of Sligo. He begged to move the Motion of which he had given notice.
MR. D. M. O'CONORseconded the Motion.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Sligo, in the room of Major Knox, whose Election has been determined to be void."—(Colonel French.)
THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)said, he could not accede to the Motion of his right hon. and gallant Friend. It was not his intention at present to go into the facts of the case; it was enough to say that the matter was under the consideration of the Government, and he hoped in a few days to be able officially to state what course the Government intended to take in reference to the borough of Sligo.
526
But as his right hon. and gallant Friend had made some observations on the subject, he would take the liberty of adding one or two by way of reply. The Report of the Commission of 3rd March, 1870, was a very full and satisfactory document, and as the third Commissioner declined to act in consequence of his standing for Tipperary, the report was made by the remaining two; and if it was any satisfaction to the House to know the fact, one was a Conservative and the other was a Liberal. The Report stated that at the last three elections of Members to serve in Parliament for the borough of Sligo corrupt practices extensively prevailed. At the election of 1859 corrupt practices had not prevailed, one of the candidates, the Conservative, having no money, and the other candidate standing reluctantly. In 1865, when the constituency numbered 372, corrupt practices prevailed to such an extent that 91 voters were scheduled as guilty of bribery by receiving money or other valuable considerations in respect of their votes. The Reform Act had added considerably to the constituency, yet notwithstanding at the last election the Commissioners stated—
"The bribery proved at this election fell short of what took place on former occasions. We do not, however, feel ourselves justified in reporting that this was due to the increased purity of the constituency, having regard to the fact that in Sligo it was almost invariably after the election that the distribution of money among the electors took place, which (if intended) would have been stopped by the presentation of a petition, and also that a large number of the electors avowed their willingness to take money if it were to be obtained. It appears from the evidence of Robert Stokes (pages 185–188) that, in consequence of the sitting of the Royal Commission, several sums promised to voters had not been distributed at the time of his examination."
The Commissioners were two of the most competent men at the Irish Bar. If the Commission was to be of any value it was necessary that the facts stated in the Report should be considered. The subject, therefore, was, as he had stated, engaging the attention of the Government. No step would be taken with regard to the borough of Sligo without having due regard to the facts proved respecting it. If they considered it their duty to proceed against it, however painful it might be, they would perform their duty; but if, on the other hand, they did not find that necessary, they would be very glad to announce their determi-

527
nation to the House. Of course, with regard to those who had been found guilty of bribery it would be necessary that they should retire from that line of business for the remainder of their lives.
MR. D. M. O'CONORsaid, he would not go at length into the facts of the case; but he thought it was quite clear that the borough of Sligo did not deserve the treatment already meted out to the boroughs of Bridgwater and Beverley. It was perfectly true that at the Election of 1868 the Commissioners reported that corrupt practices had extensively prevailed; but all the evidence they could adduce to sustain that allegation was that out of a constituency of more than 500, 16 had been found guilty of having taken bribes, while only 11 had been found guilty of offering bribes. Besides it was stated by the Commissioners that at the last election there was no evidence that any money had been furnished previously to the election. He asked hon. Members to contrast this state of things with what had been reported in the case of Norwich, where something like one-eighth of the constituency was stated to have been bribed. The Norwich Commissioners had reported that corrupt practices had not prevailed in Norwich, notwithstanding the notorious state of things existing there; but in Sligo, where only one-thirtieth of the constituency was proved to be corrupt, corrupt practices were stated by the Commissioners to have prevailed there. He could account for this diversity of opinion only on the supposition that the Norwich Commissioners were in favour of disfranchisement and that the Sligo Commissioners were not respectively. Accepting the opinion of the Solicitor General for Ireland that the Commissioners were high-minded, he referred to their Report to show their animus. It was the duty of the Commissioners to go back until they found a pure election; they found one in 1859, but went out of their way to state that the reason it was pure was that one candidate had no money and the other did not wish to be returned. Referring to the Election of 1860, which was practically no contest, the Commissioners stated an incident on the authority of one witness, refusing to hear rebutting testimony on the ground that the matter was immaterial—a matter to which they afterwards gave prominence
528
in the Report. Upon the Election of 1868 the Commissioners, desirous of showing some reason for their conclusions, stated that the usual practice in Sligo was to pay the voters afterwards. The circumstances of 1865 were peculiar, and the temptation to the voters almost irresistible. A gentleman, having contested the borough, sent his friends there some six months after, saying that he had a sum of money to dispose of, and desired to share it among the poor voters who I had voted for him. Ninety men came forward to take the money—30 per cent of the constituency, a proportion which would be matched under similar circumstances in any borough in the three kingdoms. But there would be no disposition to repeat this experiment in Sligo, for, beside the fact that the constituency had been increased, the friends of the candidate found the demands upon them rather exceeded their powers. Considering, however, that the Solicitor General for Ireland had promised to consider the matter carefully, he suggested to the right hon. and gallant Member the propriety of withdrawing his Motion and assisting the determination of the Government.
MR. RAIKESsaid, he thought the House ought to thank the right hon. and gallant Member for Roscommon (Colonel French) for having produced a case in which the Government actually did not think themselves warranted in recommending the issue of a writ for an Irish borough. There was nothing in this case exceptionally heinous; that 16 persons out of a constituency of 520 were bribed was not at all an extraordinary thing in the case of an Irish borough, unless it was extraordinary in point of moderation. He expressed his disappointment that the Solicitor General for Ireland had not given some idea of the policy of the Government with regard to that very important matter, the redistribution of seats in Ireland. Certainly the Province of Connaught ought not to be deprived of one of its few Members longer than was absolutely necessary, and he hoped the Solicitor General for Ireland would very soon make up his mind on the subject, for already he had taken longer to do so than was usual with his brother Law Officers for England.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

CONVENTUAL AND MONASTIC INSTITUTIONS.

  MOTION FOR APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE.
  MR. GLADSTONEmoved that the Select Committee do consist of the following Members:—Mr. Villiers, Mr. Newdegate, Mr. Jessel, Mr. Thomas Chambers, Mr. Matthews, Mr. Howes, Mr. Cogan, Mr. Pemberton, The O'Conor Don, Mr. Bourke, Mr. Sherlock, Mr. John Gilbert Talbot, Mr. Pease, Mr. George Gregory, and Sir John Ogilvy.
  Power to send for persons, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.
  Motion agreed to.
  MR. EYKYNmoved—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to include in their inquiries, Anglican and other religious institutions in Great Britain of a Conventual or Monastic character."
  MR. HIBBERTtook exception to the word "Anglican." It was rather hard upon the Anglican denomination to he named in this particular manner, and he suggested that the word be omitted. The Instruction would include all such institutions, whether named or not.
  MR. EYKYNsaid, he could not accede to this proposal.
  MR. COGANsaid, that as he did not think the wrong and insult that would by the proposed inquiry be put upon the Church to which he belonged could be at all lessened by extending the inquiry to other religious bodies, he was not prepared to adopt the proposition of the hon. Member for Windsor.
  MR. J. G. TALBOTsaid, he thought the wording of the proposition rather vague. The hon. Member for Windsor proposed that it be an Instruction to the Committee to include within the scope of their inquiry all Anglican and other so-called religious institutions.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, that the Instruction of the hon. Member for Windsor, as amended, referred to "other religious institutions in Great Britain of a Conventual or Monastic character."
  Motion agreed to.
  Instruction to the Committee that they have power to include in their inquiries, Anglican and other religious institutions in Great Britain of a Conventual or Monastic character.—(Mr. Eykyn.)
  MR. MATTHEWSsaid, he wished to correct a misunderstanding which had arisen in regard to the Instructions to the Committee which he intended to move. Every member of a monastic order in England in which vows were taken was, under the existing laws of the country, guilty of misdemeanour, and liable, as a consequence, to banishment for life. Further, every trust under which property was held for the maintenance of such orders was, in law, void, because it enabled men to live under vows forbidden by the law. This being so, any person who felt so inclined might, by application to the Court of Chancery, have the trusts set aside, and cause the property to revert to the heirs-at-law of the donors, or to be applied to such purposes as the Crown might appoint. Therefore, he wished that the Committee should be so instructed as that no member of an order who might be called upon for evidence should be compelled or called upon to make minute statements that could lead to the property of his monastery being forfeited by its being shown to be held under a title that was bad in law. He had no intention to re-open the discussion on the broad question of the appointment or non-appointment of the Committee, but simply to guard against the inquiry being turned into a mere inquisition. To effect this object he, therefore, moved—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee not to inquire into matters which would involve a criminal charge against any person, or the forfeiture of any legal or equitable interest in property."
  He had placed upon the Paper a second Instruction, to the effect that the Committee should
  "Inquire and report, in the first instance, on the state of the Law respecting Conventual and Monastic Institutions or Societies in Great Britain, before proceeding with the other subjects of inquiry referred to them.
  This he had done because he found that authorities like the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate), the hon. and learned Member for Marylebone (Mr. T. Chambers), and the Solicitor General held different views on the legal aspects of the question. At present, however, he moved the first of the two Instructions.
  SIR JOHN GRAYseconded the Motion.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee not to inquire into matters which would involve a criminal charge against any person, or the forfeiture of any legal or equitable interest in property"—(Mr. Matthews,)
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, the hon. and learned Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Matthews) had referred to him, probably because he anticipated that he (Mr. Newdegate) would object to any further limitation of the scope of the inquiry, and was suspected of being able to put an interpretation on the Motion of the First Lord of the Treasury which would involve danger to the tenure of property now held by monastic orders in this country. With regard to these questions he wished to explain. In a previous debate on this question he adverted to the monastery of Mount St. Bernard, in Leicestershire, and to the leniency which the Legislature had manifested in matters connected with that monastery, and its property. His having done this had led to a correspondence between himself and Mr. Harper, a gentleman connected with the management of a reformatory school which the Government had at one time placed under the control of the monks of Mount St. Bernard, who received the usual allowance for each of the boys placed in the school, the condition being that they should be employed upon a farm, of some 450 acres in extent, belonging to the monastery. In 1863, in consequence of the unsatisfactory state of the school and of certain evils connected with it being brought before the House, the Home Secretary made an arrangement, under which a certain number of persons, including Mr. Harper—all being Roman Catholics, and the chaplain of a school, a member of the monastic order, hired 100 of the 450 acres from the monks and continued to employ the boys upon it. Now, he put it to the House whether, if the danger of legal annoyances as to the possession of land by these monks which the hon. and learned Member seemed to apprehend from the proposed inquiry were likely to result, pending the inquiry the House had directed, it would not be clear that, prior to 1863, at any rate, there was already in the Library of the House, contained in a Parliamentary Return presented by the Home Office in 1864, direct evidence of the property
  532
  having been, and being, in the possession of the monks inhabiting the monastery of Mount St. Bernard? That was a case directly in point, and if the danger which the hon. and learned Gentleman anticipated, should accrue, it could be no greater than that which had existed for the last eight or nine years. The apprehensions of the hon Gentleman, therefore, were quite groundless. The second Instruction related to the laws with regard to conventual property. Undoubtedly this subject was contemplated in 1860 in the debates on the Charitable Trusts Act; and one of the great arguments then used was that conventual property ought to be brought within the compass of the law, and the Act contained provisions for legalizing it on certain conditions. It was desirable that the House should know how far the provisions of this statute had been complied with or evaded. He perfectly admitted that that Act revived the clauses of the Catholic Relief Act of 1829 against the establishment of the; male Orders of the Church of Home in this country. But he had shown that there was no danger to the property in question pending the inquiries of the Committee, because in his own district property of this very kind had been exposed by a process as public as the inquiry of the Committee, and the hon. Member would find in the Library a Parliamentary Paper which had been there for the last six years, giving all the details with respect to it. He could not look upon the Instruction as anything else than an attempt to limit still further the inquiry of the Committee and to that he was decidedly opposed.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Having made the Motion to which the House has agreed, and which effected a great limitation to the field of inquiry originally propounded, I feel it my duty to give an opinion upon the Motion of the hon. Member. I think it a most unfortunate I Motion, and I am extremely sorry that I it has been made. The hon. and learned Member (Mr. Matthews) indicated that he had found in private conversation a great objection to this Motion, and I do not think the remarks he made tended in the least to diminish it. As the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) said, there is no ground for apprehension about property. That is not the spirit in which the inquiry of the

  533
  Committee will be conducted; and if any persons were inclined to conduct it in that spirit the hon. and learned Member and others will be there to prevent it. But the Motion is unfortunate, because it seems to show a disposition to chock the Committee in a field of inquiry which the House has marked out by a very largo majority, and I, having had something to do in limiting the inquiry as at first proposed, do not feel myself at liberty to introduce further limitations when there appears to me to be an absence of any practical object. The proper guards and limits of inquiry must be judged of by the discretion of the Committee and by the privilege of the witnesses. If a witness is asked questions which it would be injurious to him to answer, let him claim his privilege. If any course of examination is likely to lead to matter that would be inconvenient, the discretion of the Committee—which can be invoked by any Member at any time, at any point of the examination, is the only manner in which the difficulty can be met. I am very sorry, indeed, that the Motion has been made, because I think the very refusal of the House—and in my opinion they can have no hesitation in refusing it—will leave the Committee in a less advantageous position than they would otherwise be in.
  MR. HEADLAMsaid, it was his lot some years ago to preside over a Select Committee of that House to which was intrusted an inquiry of the very same description—he meant the Select Committee on the Law of Mortmain. Upon that occasion he had the good fortune not to meet with any opposition from any Roman Catholic Gentlemen who were Members of that House. On the contrary, a noble Lord, the late Duke of Norfolk, then Earl of Arundell and Surrey, and also the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Limerick (Mr. Monsell) were Members of the Committee. On that occasion he was careful to make everything general, so that there should be nothing in the form of reference, and nothing in the inquiry or Report which could be said to be directed against any particular portion of the community. There was no limitation whatever to the discretion of the Committee, and, of course, in the progress of the inquiry they had some delicate questions to determine. The late Cardinal Wiseman appeared before it. But he was
  534
  happy to think that the whole inquiry was conducted in such a form that no Roman Catholic gentleman ever complained that anything harsh or illegal was done. The House could perfectly trust his right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. C. P. Villiers) to conduct the present inquiry in the most unexceptional manner.
  MR. CHARLEYsaid, the hon. and learned Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Matthews) was fighting a shadow, for it appeared from Sir Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice that witnesses, petitioners, and others were protected by privilege from the consequences of any statement they might make to either House, and that any molestation to which they might be subjected in consequence of such statement would be treated as a breach of privilege.
  MR. SHERLOCKsaid, that a witness might refuse to answer any questions tending to criminate himself, and if questions were put to him involving the title of his property he might respectfully decline to answer. Lord St. Leonards last year, in a Court of Justice, had declined to state what his title was, and he recovered notwithstanding his refusal. The case referred to by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) as to the number of acres held by a particular monastery was one on which the hon. Gentleman himself could give the information required. The Motion, to say the least of it, was unnecessary.
  MR. SYNANsaid, he could not see what possible objection there was to the Motion; but, at the same time, he did not recommend that the hon. and learned Gentleman should go to a Division on it. It would, however, prove to the House and the Committee that the inquiry ought to be two-fold—first, into the law as to its exempting persons and property from the penalties of confiscation, and afterwards, an inquiry into the other part of the order of reference.
  MR. MATTHEWSbegged leave to withdraw his Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. WHALLEYrose to move—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee also to inquire into the existence, character, and increase of Conventual and Monastic Institutions or Societies in Great Britain."
  MR. SPEAKERruled that the Motion was irregular.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Two o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Bridgwater and Beverley Disfranchisement* (87); Norwich Voters Disfranchisement* (88); Mortgage Debenture Act (1865) Amendment* (89); Felony* (90); Creditors Sequestrations* (91).
Second Reading—Justices of the Peace Qualification* (77), discharged.
Committee—War Office (74·92).
Committee—Report—Medical Act (1858) Amendment* (69–93).
Third Reading—Inverness County, &c. (Boundary)* (48), and passed.

WAR OFFICE BILL—(No. 74.)
(The Lord Northbrook.)
WAR OFFICE BILL—(No. 74.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee on the said Bill, read.
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, he wished to say a few words in reference to cer-

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  tain observations which had been made on the second reading of the Bill, especially by a noble Earl who was lately Under Secretary for War (the Earl of Longford), and who, like himself, held a commission in Her Majesty's service. The noble Earl, digressing in a rather remarkable manner from the question then before the House, delivered a caustic and bitter invective against Her Majesty's Government, on account of certain reductions they had thought it necessary to make in the Army; dwelling also on the discontent and dissatisfaction with which they were viewed by the Army at large. Now, he took issue with the noble Earl on this point; believing as he did, in common with many others in the profession, that he was not the best friend to the Army who would maintain in a time of profound peace a vast and costly establishment, and an over-manned Staff, he ventured to say that what Her Majesty's Ministers had done was prudently and wisely done. He especially objected to the remarks the noble Lord opposite had made on the point that these reductions ought not to have been made till the new Reserve forces were filled up. Did the noble Lord think it necessary that all reductions should be postponed till the Reserves which had been ordered were brought up to their full force? For his part he held that no such postponement was necessary, believing, as he did, that the spirit and patriotism of the country, would be found, fully adequate to meet any emergency that might arise during the interval, and he was sure that the sinister predictions in which the noble Earl had indulged would not abate the confidence of the Army in its ability to discharge its duty on whatever service they might be sent.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDasked to be permitted to say a few words in answer to the observations of his noble Friend. He adhered to the opinions he had expressed the other night, and was ready to repeat them over again on any proper occasion. He believed, on reflection, that he might have gone beyond the question the other night, there being nothing in the Bill about reductions in the Army—but only for the regulations of the War Office. His noble Friend in charge of the Bill (Lord Northbrook) had, however, referred to those reductions somewhat complacently, and he
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  therefore desired to show their Lordships that there was a different view of them. He was not aware that he went to quite such a length as the noble Earl had imputed to him; but he had certainly heard considerable expressions of discontent from officers of standing and ability. He made no reference whatever to the Staff, and he objected to have words put into his mouth. He had heard nothing to satisfy him that the reductions had been prudently made.
  House in Committee.
  Clause 1 (Short title of Act) agreed to.
  Clause 2 (Appointment of Surveyor General of Ordnance).
  EARL GREYsaid, he had an Amendment to propose to this clause. Their Lordships would observe that the object of the 2nd and 3rd clauses was to create two subordinate officials in the War Office, for the purpose of assisting the Secretary of State in the House of Commons. These officers appeared to be of equal rank, and, he presumed, with the same salaries; but there was this extraordinary difference—that while the acceptance of one Office by a person having a seat in the House of Commons was to vacate the seat, the acceptance of the other was to have no such consequences. This was an evident absurdity. During the discussion of the last Reform Bill he called attention to the absurdity which already existed of a distinction between certain subordinate Offices under the Crown, the acceptance of some of which involved the vacating of seats, while others, through the mere accident of the appointment being made by a Minister, instead of directly by the Crown, were exempted from that provision. Thus, the Secretary to the Treasury did not vacate his seat by accepting Office, while a Lord of the Treasury, holding an Office of inferior importance and emolument, was obliged to go back to his constituents. Their Lordships at that time refused to correct this anomaly, and he could understand their unwillingness to disturb what they found already existing; but in creating new Offices either one principle or the other ought to be consistently applied. These two Offices were of precisely the same character, and he asked, in the name of common sense, why one should entail the vacation of the seat and the other should not? He was sure it would puzzle his

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  noble Friend who had charge of the Bill, to discover any sufficient reason for this anomaly. If they held that it was right on principle that persons on accepting Office should vacate their seats, then abide by that rule and let both Offices create a vacancy in the seats. His opinion, however, was/that the best rule would be that neither should vacate their seats. His experience in Parliament satisfied him that great difficulties arose from the present state of the law. Those of their Lordships who remembered the passing of the first Reform Act would recollect that apprehensions were expressed that the disfranchisement of many small boroughs, which afforded a means of bringing into Office persons whose services were likely to be useful, would render it difficult to select the most competent persons for Offices under the Crown. He always felt the force of that view, and the experience of 38 years had satisfied him that such a difficulty now existed. Were it not invidious, he could mention instances in which the most competent persons had been passed over on account of the uncertainty of their securing re-election, and of less competent persons being preferred whose seats were secure. On the second reading of this Bill, objection was taken by the noble Duke near him (the Duke of Richmond) to allowing the Surveyor General of the Ordnance to sit in Parliament, on the ground, that the tendency would be to prefer an officer sitting in the House of Commons, although another without a seat might be better qualified. He (Earl Grey) admitted that this argument had some force; but he thought it was sufficiently answered by what was urged by the Government on the other side—that additional professional assistance was required by the Secretary for War in the House of Commons, and it was therefore desirable that this new officer should be capable of sitting in that House. The noble Duke's objection would, however, have increased weight if the Surveyor General by accepting Office vacated his seat. There might be two military officers candidates for the Office, and both with seats in the House of Commons, and if one of them had gained his seat with difficulty and by a small majority, while the the other was secure of re-election, there would be an overwhelming temptation to prefer the latter,
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  even though he was less qualified than his competitor. If their Lordships held that a great constitutional principle was involved in the vacating of seats, he should be willing to apply it to both these Offices; but he would first propose that the Surveyor General should not vacate his seat by accepting Office, if already a Member of the House of Commons, nor be ineligible for election if not already a Member. If this Amendment was rejected he should move on Clause o that the Financial Secretary should also vacate his seat by accepting Office.
  Amendment moved—
  To leave out from ("Act") to the end of the clause and insert ("one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State may from time to time appoint and at his pleasure remove an officer to be styled the Financial Secretary of the War Office, and such officer shall not by virtue of such appointment, if sitting in the Commons House of Parliament, vacate his seat, or, whether sitting in such House or not, be disqualified from being elected to or sitting or voting in the said House of Parliament,")—(The Earl Grey.)
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, that, though on a previous evening the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) blamed him for asking for a postponement of Bills, he hoped the noble Earl would now think he had improved the opportunity he was kind enough to afford him of reflecting on the course which he should take with regard to this clause. During the interval, he had looked at the matter in all its bearings, and had come to the resolution of not offering any further opposition to the measure. He was the more inclined to do this on account of the statement of the noble Lord (Lord Northbrook) that it was by no means necessary that the Surveyor General should have a seat in Parliament, and that the best person would be selected, irrespective of his sitting in Parliament. He still objected to the Office of Surveyor General being made subject to Ministerial changes, and should be glad if the noble Lord in charge of the Bill could consider before the next stage of the Bill the propriety of making the Office a permanent one, and without a seat in Parliament. If, as seemed the general opinion, further professional assistance was required by the Secretary of State in the House of Commons, a third Office might be created, the person who filled it to be styled Assistant Under Secretary of State,

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  and to be a military man, qualified to assist the Secretary of State in debates and questions arising in Parliament. This, with the assistance of the Financial Secretary, would provide all that was required. He would not press this, but threw it out for the noble Lord's consideration.
  EARL GRANVILLEadmitted that the noble Duke had made an excellent use of the delay which he solicited, and should be happy to bargain with him that the same course should be taken with regard to the two other Bills, on condition that postponement was followed in those cases by the same result. Without entering into argument on the Amendment, he would urge on his noble Friend a consideration which had weighed with his Colleagues in the House of Commons—namely, the feeling of jealousy with regard to one House dealing with matters which peculiarly affected the other House. He did not deny that when any great public advantage was at stake, this feeling must not be allowed too much weight; but, in the present case, he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed.
  EARL GREYsaid, he could not consent to withdraw an Amendment against which not a word of argument could be adduced, out of regard for a question of etiquette. In the absence of any argument, it was clearly the right and duty of the House to express an opinion.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYreminded the noble Earl this point was not raised during the discussion of the Bill in the House of Commons.
  On Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause?"
  Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 28; Not-Contents, 33: Majority 5.
  Clause amended accordingly, and agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  The Report of the Amendment to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 92.)

  CREDITORS SEQUESTRATIONS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Law relating to the Sequestration of Benefices in England and Wales—Was presented by The Earl of HARROWBY; read 1a. (No. 91.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.