Sitting of 28 April 1870

MINUTES.
NEW WRITS ISSUED—For Mayo, v. George Henry Moore, esquire, deceased: for Mallow, v. Henry Munster, esquire, void Election.
PUBLIC BILLS—Resolution in Committee—Ordered—First Reading—Sale of Liquors* [112].
Committee—Irish Land [29]—R.P.
Considered as amended—Naturalization [86]; Marriage with a Deceased Wife's Sister* [11].

ARMY—WEIGHTS AND MEASURES IN CANTEENS.—QUESTION.
MR. STEPHEN CAVEsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether recommendations have been addressed by the Home Department to Chairmen of Quarter Sessions, to the effect that local inspectors of weights and measures should report deficiencies in the weights and measures used in Regimental Canteens to the War Office, instead of taking proceedings in the ordinary way; and, if so, upon what provision of Law these recommendations are founded?
MR. BRUCE, in reply, said, it was true that, upon the representation of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War that complaints had been made as to the weights and measures used in canteens, and on his request that a civil officer should be appointed for the purpose of ascertaining the accuracy of those weights and measures, he (Mr. Bruce) addressed a Circular to the Chairmen of Quarter Sessions to make arrangements for the inspection of canteens by the inspectors of weights and measures. That
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had been done in some cases; in others the Chairmen of Quarter Sessions stated they had no power to order such inspection. He was not aware that there was any law for the inspection of canteens by the inspectors of weights and measures, nor did he think any such provision necessary. No proceedings were to be taken by inspectors; all they would do was to report to the War Office, which would then adopt such a course as they might think proper.

ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES ACT.

  QUESTION.
  MR. STACPOOLEsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, If he can state when it is proposed to introduce the promised Bill for the repeal of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, the necessity for legislating on the subject-matter of my hon. Friend's Question is as great in the view of the Government as it has ever been, and, indeed, a case which was anticipated as possible has actually occurred, because one of the Irish Bishops having died, a gentleman has been appointed to the See of Kilmore who at present bears the title of the see conformably to law; but on the 1st of January it would become illegal for him to do so. It is, therefore, in our view, urgent to deal with the Ecclesiastical Titles Act; but the state of business makes it extremely difficult to anticipate at what precise time it would be possible to introduce a Bill. Her Majesty's Government have had it under consideration whether they may not be able to introduce a Bill on the subject in the House of Lords.

  TRUCK ACT.—QUESTION.
  SIR DAVID WEDDERBURNsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been directed to the reports of continued and systematic evasion of the Truck Act in Scotland; and, whether he is prepared to sanction a public inquiry by Royal Commission, or otherwise, into the working of that Act?
  MR. BRUCEsaid, in reply, that he was quite aware of the continued and systematic evasion of the Act, not only

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  in Scotland, but in other parts of the country. Many years ago a Select Committee, on which he sat, was appointed to inquire into those evasions. The Committee took ample evidence, not only as regarded Scotland, but also England and Wales; but they were unable to agree on a Report, inasmuch as they found it difficult, if not impossible, to increase the stringency of the Act without interfering with freedom of trade. He did not think any new facts would be obtained by a Royal Commission, or that inquiry by a Select Committee would add anything to our knowledge. It would simply be adding another Blue Book to the many we already possessed. All he could say was, that as it was impossible for him to deal with the question this Session, if the hon. Baronet, or any other Member of the House, would take it in hand, Her Majesty's Government would be prepared to give their best consideration to any suggestions which might be made.

SALMON FISHERIES REPORT.

  QUESTION.
  MR. H. A. HERBERTsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it be true that a review of the Report of the Inspectors of Salmon Fisheries appeared in "The Times" and "Daily Telegraph" of the 14th and 16th April instant respectively, being a fortnight before such Report was circulated amongst the Members of this House, or could be obtained by other newspapers or the public generally, and whether this has been done with the sanction of the Home Office; and, if not, whether he will cause inquiry to be made how this Report was so partially distributed, and by whom?
  MR. BRUCEsaid, in reply, that he believed it was true that the Report did appear in the newspapers mentioned on the 14th and 16th instant, which was previous to its being laid on the Table. That was done without the sanction or knowledge of the Home Office. He was informed that a copy of the Report was forwarded to the newspapers by the Inspectors of Fisheries, on the understanding that no use would be made of it until the Report was published. It certainly was an irregular proceeding, and he should take measures to see that it was not repeated.

CHAPEL AND SCHOOLS SITE BILL.

  QUESTION.
  MR. OWEN STANLEYsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Homo Department, If it is his intention, when the Chapel and Schools Site Bill is in Committee, to strike out the compulsory Clauses for obtaining sites for Chapels, limiting it to School sites only; and, if he intends to propose Clauses enabling owners of property with limited powers to grant or sell sites for Churches and Chapels by agreement?
  MR. BRUCE, in reply, said, with respect to the first part of the Question, his hon. Friend had rightly apprehended one of the intentions of the Government—namely, to object to that portion of the Bill which gave compulsory powers for obtaining sites for chapels. With regard to the second part of the Question, he believed it was the intention of his hon. and learned Friend who had introduced the Bill fully to provide for increasing the powers to grant sites for churches and chapels by agreement; and if, on examination of the Bill, these powers did not appear complete, it would be his duty to offer Amendments to secure that object.

  SHALE MINES.—QUESTION.
  SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHERsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, having regard to the recent accidents in shale mines, he will make arrangements for including those mines within the provisions of the Mines Regulation and Inspection Bill?
  MR. BRUCEsaid, in reply, that before he received information as to the recent lamentable accidents in the shale mines in his hon. Friend's neighbourhood, he had directed inquiry to be made by the Inspector of Mines in that district, as to the expediency of including such mines in the operation of the Bill. The result of the Inspector's Report was, that he (Mr. Bruce) had determined to adopt the Amendment with that object which had been put on the Paper by the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho).

ARMY—MILITIA ORDERS FOR 1870.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BEACHsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether by cancelling paragraph 16 of the Militia Orders for the year 1870 it is intended that no definite rule should exist as to which Officer of Militia is to conduct the correspondence with the War Office?
  MR. CARDWELL: Sir, the paragraph in question interfered in a way that was not intended with the functions of honorary colonels as prescribed by the Home Office Circular for 1853. By cancelling that paragraph, it is intended to revert to the provisions of the Circular.

  GREECE—MURDER OF ENGLISHMEN BY BRIGANDS.—QUESTION.
  MR. W. C. CARTWRIGHT: I wish, Sir, to ask the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, Whether he can give the House any information of a more recent date than has yet appeared, respecting the pursuit of that portion of the brigands who were reported, in the first instance, to have escaped the encounter which ended so fatally to our countrymen who were captives?
  Mr. OTWAY: Sir, my noble Friend the Secretary of State lost no time in addressing to Her Majesty's Minister at Athens an inquiry on certain points on which—as has probably suggested itself to Members of this House—it is necessary that we should have fuller information in regard to the recent murders in Greece which have excited so much sympathy and indignation in this country. We have received from Mr. Erskine to-day a telegram which, with the permission of the House, I will read. It is dated Athens, April 27, 10 p.m., and it says—
  "I have sent a list of the brigands still at large to Mr. Barron. Upwards of 500 troops are in pursuit, and no exertion will be spared to capture and bring them to justice. The heads of seven killed have been publicly exposed here, and five others are about to be examined. If convicted, they will be executed immediately."
  My noble Friend also entered into communications with the Turkish Government in regard to the probable attempt of the brigands to escape over the Turkish frontier, and they have been met by that
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  Government—as it was to be expected they would be—with the most perfect willingness to do everything on their part to effect the capture of these brigands. From Mr. Barron, the Secretary of the Embassy at Constantinople, and now in charge of the Embassy there, we have also received the following telegram, dated the 27th of April:—
  "Orders have been sent by telegraph to Janina and Tricala, and the military commander, for the arrest of the brigands on Turkish territory, and to deliver them to the Greek authorities."
  My noble Friend has received a further telegram from Mr. Erskine, dated this day, stating that the Antelope sailed at 10 this morning, for Malta, with the bodies of the three unfortunate gentlemen whose murder we so deeply deplore.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE: Sir, it appears, from the intelligence which has reached us, that all necessary arrangements were made for sending home the bodies of the murdered gentlemen from Athens in a vessel of war, but it was found that those on the station were too small. A telegram which has been received now tells us that the senior officer had decided to send the bodies to Malta in the Antelope. Now, I wish to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, What force of vessels he had in the Greek waters at the time of this lamentable occurrence, besides the Antelope, attached to the Embassy, and which the senior officer on the station stated was too small to convey the bodies home?
  MR. CHILDERS: My hon. Friend only gave me notice of his Question this afternoon, and without telegraphing to Athens I am not certain whether on the day of the murders the Antelope had arrived at the Piræus; but the only vessel besides her there was the Cockatrice, a gunboat carrying two guns. The Caledonia had been recalled by the Commander-in-Chief to Malta early in the present month to join the rest of the fleet for the usual cruise at this season.

IRISH LAND BILL— [BILL 29.]
(Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Chichester Fortescue, Mr. John Bright.)
IRISH LAND BILL— [BILL 29.]

  COMMITTEE.
  [Progress 8th April.]
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 3 (Compensation in absence of custom).
  Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 35, after the word "land," to insert the words—
  "Provided always, That nothing in this Act contained shall exonerate a tenant under lease from the duty of giving up peaceable possession of the demised land at the end of the term, nor shall a landlord resuming possession at the termination of a lease be deemed to be disturbing a tenant within the meaning of this Act."—(Mr. Headlam.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. HEADLAMsaid, his Amendment had been the subject of so much misrepresentation that probably the Committee would allow him to express clearly its precise meaning, and what the misrepresentation was of which he complained. In all the various criticisms on the Amendment, which might be found in the public papers, he had observed that the words of the Amendment were carefully kept out of sight, and representations were made of its purport in effect inconsistent with the words of the Amendment itself, but convenient enough for the observations made upon it. The Committee had already passed one paragraph of the clause embodying a scale of compensation to be paid to tenants upon eviction. Now, that scale was contingent upon two circumstances. In the first place, it related only to contracts made after the passing of the Act; and, secondly, it only applied to the case of tenants who were disturbed in their holdings by the act of their landlord. The question, therefore, arose what was the meaning of the disturbance of the tenant by the landlord. The construction he put upon the words was the common, ordinary, legal interpretation—namely, that they referred to an act done by the landlord, and that the words "disturbing a tenant" did not apply to a landlord resuming possession of his land at the termination of a lease. That was the ordinary and natural meaning of the words; and if the Committee applied the words of the paragraph they had passed to the case of leases, they would be straining the words, and putting a forced and unnatural construction upon them. Now, the effect of his Amendment was this—namely, that if the Committee adopted it, they would make it perfectly clear that the paragraph did not apply to leases, and they would limit its effect simply and solely to the cases clearly provided for by the words
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  of the paragraph—that was, cases of continuing tenancies, which went on not only from year to year, but from generation to generation, and were only terminated by an act of the landlord disturbing the tenant. His Amendment would confine the paragraph they had passed to those tenancies, and would prevent the application of it to leases which did not come within the language, and which, in fact and in substance, rested upon different considerations. But, having thus limited the paragraph to its strict and natural meaning, the Amendment would leave it perfectly open to the Government and the Committee afterwards to legislate in what manner they pleased in respect to leases. All that the Amendment would do would be to render it necessary, when they legislated in respect to leases, that they should not strain the words so as to bring leases into a paragraph to which leases did not naturally belong. The Government said, in effect, that with regard to all leases for a period under 31 years, that the scale of compensation already adopted for disturbing a tenant should be made applicable to such leases. Well, it would be perfectly competent for the Government, if it thought fit, to adhere to that proposal, to continue it, and to abide by it; and there was nothing in his Amendment which would prevent them making such a proposal. The same was true in respect to the various proposals of which notice had been given by private Members for reducing the period from 31 years to 21 years, 14 years, or some point below that fixed by the Government, the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. C. S. Read), for example, who thought the limit should be 14 years, and that upon the termination of leases for a term of not more than 14 years, the tenants should be entitled to compensation on an entry by the landlord; he would be at liberty to make a proposal to that effect if the Committee were to adopt the Amendment now under consideration. He himself (Mr. Headlam) had suggested that, in the case of leases for terms of seven years and under, where the rent was not more than £50, the landlord should, if he entered at the end of the term, pay compensation. It might be asked why he had not suggested that addition when he made his first proposal. His answer to that was clear and distinct; he had not thought it his

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  duty or business to do so. He did not wish to place himself prominently before the House by suggesting various Amendments. He had simply proposed the Amendment now under consideration in the first paragraph, limiting the effect of that paragraph, and then leaving it for the Government, or the hon. and learned Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer), or others, to suggest, if they thought fit, in what precise form they should legislate in regard to leases. He had made his meaning quite clear from the first; and when the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government said that his proposed Amendment was contrary to the principle of the Bill, he had expressly declared that he did not say that leases were not to be considered and dealt with by the Bill, but what he did say was that, if they were to be considered and dealt with, it should be done by precise terms applicable to the cases. The report of what he had said would be found in the ordinary records, showing distinctly that, from the very first, he had made the same statement which he did at the present time. He maintained deliberately that there could not be a greater misrepresentation than to say his proposal was contrary to the principle of the Bill. He did not impute to the right hon. Gentleman the First Minister of the Crown any intention of misrepresenting the case—[Mr. GLADSTONE: Hear, hear!]—but he certainly regretted that, upon the first mention of the matter, the right hon. Gentleman should have gone out of his way to state that the Amendment was contrary to the principle of the Bill before he had an opportunity of considering the nature of the proposal. He could not, however, let off so easily his hon. and learned Friend (the Attorney General), because he must have understood the subject. The Attorney General had not answered one single argument which he (Mr. Headlam) had addressed to the Committee. He confined himself simply to a strong assertion that the Amendment was contrary to the principle of the Bill, and would, if passed, make the Bill perfectly useless. Now, it could not be truly said that the Amendment would affect the principle of the Bill. As the Bill stood at this moment, all tenants under lease were intended to be brought within the first paragraph of the clause, and then the Bill proceeded to take the tenants of
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  certain leases out of the first paragraph by special exceptions. If his proposal were adopted, tenants under lease would not be brought within the first paragraph at all, but they would be legislated for substantially afterwards, by words adapted to their particular case. He repeated that there never was a greater misrepresentation than to say that his proposal was contrary to the principle of the Bill. The Attorney General then contended that there was not the slightest difference between a continuous tenancy determined by the act of the landlord and a lease which came to an end by effluxion of time, and that the words "disturbing a tenant" were equally applicable to the one case as to the other. There could be no more monstrous proposition. He asked the Committee to affirm—
  "That nothing in this Act contained shall exonerate a tenant under lease from the duty of giving up peaceable possession of the demised land at the end of the term."
  Did the Government really intend to exonerate a tenant from this primary and elementary duty? If they did intend to exonerate him from a duty which the law now cast upon him, the Government would, perhaps, answer this further question—whether they had considered to what extent such a change in the law would shake the whole relations of landlord and tenant? He would also ask them whether the assertion of such a proposition was likely to make the landlord inclined to grant leases? If, however, the Government did not intend to assert the proposition that the Act should exonerate a tenant under lease from the duty of giving up peaceable possession of the demised land at the end of the term, then he asked what harm was there in putting upon record the words he had suggested? There were infinite advantages in these words, because they made it clear to the tenant that, although he might have a money claim upon his landlord at the end of his lease, he was not to be exonerated from the duty of giving up the land. In the present state of Ireland it was very desirable to put that fact clearly upon record. If the law on a subject of this kind were left doubtful, hopes of all kinds would be encouraged, and Parliament would give rise to interminable litigation and to incorrect ideas concerning the duties of landlord and tenant.

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  From all points of view, therefore, it was desirable to clear up uncertainty, so that there should be no misunderstanding upon this subject. If the Government really intended to exonerate the tenant from this duty, let them say so distinctly. If, on the other hand, they agreed with him that the tenant, although he might have a money claim on his landlord at the end of his lease, should not be exonerated from giving up peaceable possession, there was no reason why the Government should not consent to the words he had proposed. Take the other part of his Amendment—
  "Nor shall a landlord resuming possession at the termination of a lease be deemed to be disturbing a tenant within the meaning of this Act."
  Did the Government really mean that a landlord so acting should be considered as disturbing a tenant? If that was their intention, they were straining language and violating principles of Jaw quite unnecessarily, and with no object that could be conceived. It was not necessary, in order to give the tenant of certain leases some pecuniary compensation should his landlord enter upon the land at the end of a term, that the landlord so entering upon the land should be called a disturber. The instant they had got the landlord within the first paragraph by calling him a disturber they proceeded to take a very large proportion of leases out of the paragraph by way of exception. He did not see what good could be done by such a form of legislation. The Committee should state, in clear and precise language, under what leases landlords were to be liable to pay compensation to their tenants, and what was the amount of compensation they should pay—matters which, he contended, ought to be the subject of substantive legislation. The fact was that this Bill was intended to apply to circumstances of a very different nature, requiring in each case suitable language in calling for different considerations. There were four cases requiring to be separately considered—first, there was the case of continuous tenancies from year to year created before the passing of the Act; second, the case of continuous tenancies from year to year beginning after the passing of the Act; third, the case of leases made before the passing of the Act; and lastly, the case of leases to be
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  made after the passing of the Act. Those cases should all be treated separately, and suitable words should be applied to each. The section, however, dealt with them all in such a manner that it was impossible to say what was the law with regard to any of them, for the clause left the whole matter in such a state of uncertainty that no Member, after having read it, could decide as to any particular case. His right hon. Friend the chief Secretary for Ireland, who was conversant with the subject, might be able to state what was intended to be the law; but he appealed to both sides of the House as to whether any other hon. Member could do so. How was this intended to affect cases in which tenants had been in possession of land for 40 or 50 years before its passing? The Committee had been clearly told by the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government that the paragraph which had been passed applied only to prospective contracts; and yet, if tenants of this description were to be brought within the meaning of the first paragraph, the Bill would be retrospective in the highest degree. He must complain—and not without reason—of the manner in which he had been met with regard to this Amendment. He could positively state that when he placed his Notice upon the Paper he had not the slightest intention of obstructing the progress or altering the principle of the Bill. He thought, in fact, that he was doing a service in making clear words as to which there ought to be no doubt. He believed he was assisting the Government by suggesting that they should in their Bill insert a proviso to the effect that nothing contained in the Act should exonerate the tenant from the duty of giving up possession of the land when the term of his tenancy expired; but it had been suddenly discovered that that was contrary to the principle of the Bill. Before giving notice of this Amendment he had heard this language used by the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government when introducing the Bill—
  "We have toiled hard in the construction of this measure, but we are far from believing it to be perfect; and we invite, in unreserved good faith, the co-operation of all parties and of all Members of this House."—[3 Hansard, cxcix. 382.]
  He believed those words when he heard them, and when he looked at the Bill, finding that it was far from being per-

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  feet, he accepted that invitation, and gave notice of an Amendment in good faith, without the slightest idea of interfering with the principle of the Bill, but rather with the view of facilitating the progress of the measure. His Amendment came on for discussion at a late hour of the Sitting; and, as he did not wish to embarrass the Government, he asked whether they would prefer to go on with unopposed clauses, offering to postpone his Motion until after Easter. That offer was declined, so that he had no alternative but to proceed. He would put it to the Committee whether, in bringing forward his Amendment on that occasion, he unduly trespassed on their time. He believed he was almost too short, and there was not the least ground for imputing to him that he had spoken against time. After the question had been debated for a short time, he rose to reply, for the express purpose of bringing the debate to an end, and having the matter settled before Easter. So far as he was personally concerned, it was not pleasant to have it hanging over through the whole of the Vacation. It was true that a noble Lord opposite (Lord Claud Hamilton) addressed the House with a power of eloquence that he listened to with admiration; but his effort was unnecessary, as several Members were desirous of joining in the discussion, which would have been continued even had the noble Lord resumed his seat at an earlier period. However, he felt now that it was better that the debate had been prolonged, so that the proposition might be fully considered. Having thus reminded the Committee of what really occurred, he would bring under their notice a statement of what took place, as made by an independent Member of the House, who said he was an eye-witness, and saw and heard everything which he described—
  "The policy of the Conservatives was to talk the Bill to death—in fact, to talk everything to death, including the Prime Minister. Most ably have they been seconded by the deserters from the Liberal ranks. Foremost among them is Mr. Headlam—a fact of which the electors of Newcastle-on-Tyne would do well to take note. There are some facts, too, connected with this case which are not patent in the newspaper reports which it is as well should be made public. This is what happened on the last day of the Land Bill debate—First of all it may be premised that Mr. Headlam was once in office under a Liberal Government, but is not in office now. He placed an Amendment on the Paper to the effect that the
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  granting of a lease should be a bar to the operation of the Bill. If he succeeds in passing it the Bill will be at an end. He knows that perfectly well; he is not fool enough to be ignorant that the Bill will not be worth printing if it be thus emasculated. Not only did he propose that Amendment, but he prevented a Division being taken upon it. He therefore played the game of the Opposition, and he did it intentionally. It sounds hard to say so, but I sat and listened to his intolerably wearisome speech. All this while the hands of the clock were slowly moving round to the inevitable hour when the Chairman must leave the Chair. It was enough to make self-command a very difficult task—all the more difficult because a Liberal Member for one of our most Liberal constituencies did the deed. Mr. Cowen, than whom a more faithful ally of Mr. Gladstone does not exist, is Mr. Headlam's Colleague; surely the electors of Newcastle-on-Tyne are not going to let all Mr. Cowen does be more than neutralized by Mr. Headlam's treason?"
  [Cries of "Name!"] The Gentleman by whom that account was written to The Birmingham Daily Post signed himself "An Independent M. P.," and was no doubt now present, as well as having been an eye-witness of the scene which he described. In lieu of his criticism on himself he would give the hon. Gentleman one piece of advice, and that was that he should not exercise his self-command on the present occasion, but should rise in his place and make the statement which he had communicated to a newspaper. It was better that he should do that than write to The Birmingham Daily Post a tissue of—he knew not what to call them—of statements the accuracy of everyone of which he utterly and entirely denied. Nor could he altogether acquit his right hon. Friend at the head of the Government of something like misrepresentation. He found that on the day when the House adjourned for the Easter Recess, his right hon. Friend used the following words:—
  "After, I must say, one of the most thoroughly unprofitable discussions of five hours' duration to which it has ever been my fate to listen in this House, on Friday last we reported Progress on the Irish Land Bill."
  [Mr. GLADSTONE dissented.] If his right hon. Friend denied the accuracy of the report which attributed to him those words, he should not, of course, press the matter any further. He would only say that when he sat down, after proposing his Amendment on the occasion in question, he entertained the strongest conviction that nearly every hon. Member present—at any rate every Member who had taken any part in the discussion

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  of the Bill—was in favour of his proposal. He might be wrong; but that was his impression. He arrived at this conclusion from the amount of assent that he received. Taking into account, he might add, that the discussion lasted only an hour and three-quarters, he did not think that there was any necessity for making complaints of the unnecessary consumption of the time of that House. He could not understand, too, why his name should have been selected for animadversion out of some 300 Members who had given notice of Amendments on various clauses of the Bill. With respect to his particular Amendment, he could with truth assert that neither in that House, nor in the newspaper criticisms out of it, had he heard or seen anything in the nature of legitimate argument against it; but, in lieu of legitimate argument, he had heard violent assertions that it was against the principle of the Bill, and he had seen attempts made to impute to him in coarse and vulgar language mean motives, because he happened to sit on the Bench on which he did, instead of that immediately below him. Having said thus much in reference to the past, he should, while he was very unwilling to delay the Committee, add a few words with respect to the future. If it were the wish of the Committee, as it was certainly his, that all the separate cases dealt with in the clause before them should be provided for separately, and that the first paragraph should be limited to the cases to which it was made applicable by the words contained in it, he could not see why Her Majesty's Government should not assent to that view, and adopt his language. There was nothing in the adoption of that course which would prejudice them with regard to the after-parts of the Bill. So far as he was concerned, his desire was to go as far as possible to meet the objects of the Government. He had made a suggestion as to the length of the leases which should make the landlord liable to pay compensation, should he avail himself of his legal right, and enter at the end of the term; but, if the Government came forward with any proposal on the subject, which he thought fair and reasonable, he would be ready to withdraw his own in its favour. There was, he might add, the question of retrospective tenancies, which ought also to be dealt with by
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  separate words, as well as the question of leases given after the passing of the Act. It was, in his opinion, of great consequence that these cases so entirely distinct as that of the landlord disturbing the tenant by an act of his own and a landlord entering into possession of his land on the natural expiration of a lease should not be mixed up together. He had endeavoured to do his part in putting the matter clearly before the Committee. He would simply observe, in conclusion, that his sincere desire was to assist the Government in passing the Bill. He had nothing to regret in the Amendments he had proposed, nor, so far as he recollected, in the manner in which he had introduced them; but if he had used any expression of which any hon. Member had reason to complain, it was unintentional on his part, and he should be ready to express his regret.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, he, for one, had never for a moment thought of imputing anything like mala fides or factious conduct to his right hon. Friend; nor had he ever in the slightest degree questioned the purity of his motives, or accused him of having unduly occupied the time of the Committee. He fully admitted that the speech of his right hon. Friend on the occasion which had been referred to went very much to the point, and he was perfectly ready to acquit his right hon. Friend of the accusation, which he thought might fairly be adduced against the noble Lord opposite (Lord Claud Hamilton), who had taken a prominent part in a former debate, and who seemed to attack the common crimes of all rather than any one of them in particular. He should not, under those circumstances, have deemed it necessary to trespass on the attention of the Committee had not his right hon. Friend charged him with something like intentional misrepresentation, a charge which obliged him to say that he adhered to every syllable which he had uttered on the occasion in question, and that if his right hon. Friend had been misunderstood or misrepresented by him, the misunderstanding was one which was shared by a vast number of persons both within and out of the House, including a large portion of the Press. That misunderstanding, he might further observe, seemed to him to be referable to the fact that, not being gifted with a

  1979
  prophetic instinct, he was unaware that the right hon. Gentleman meant to pro-propose an Amendment of which he had given notice only the night before, and which would give an entirely different aspect to the whole question. [Mr. HEADLAM: No, no!] His right hon. Friend might cry "No, no!" as long as he liked. At all events, no notice whatever had been given of this proviso at the time he addressed the Committee, and therefore all that could be said against him was that he did not possess the gift of prophecy. The proviso put an entirely different interpretation on the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, which he had taken in its natural sense, not anticipating that it would be neutralized by some other Amendment. He desired to remind the House for a moment how the case stood. The scheme of the clause was, that with respect to all future tenancies from year to year, and all leases for terms less than 31 years, the landlord should, on resuming possession, pay a certain sum which might be called damages for the eviction or disturbance of the tenant. As an Amendment to that his right hon. Friend proposed that nothing should exonerate a tenant holding under a lease from the duty of giving up peaceable possession. His right hon. Friend at great length endeavoured to prove that it was the duty of the tenant under a lease to give up possession at the end of the term, but that it was not his duty in the same sense if he held the land from year to year, and received a notice to quit. He maintained, however, that no such distinction could be drawn. Compare the two cases. In the one the landlord said to the tenant—"I let you this land for 12 months from this day," or for some longer period, at the expiration of which he was bound to go out. In the other case the landlord said—"I let you the land for 12 months, and for so much longer time as may elapse, before I give you a six months' notice to quit." Now, surely the tenant would be just as much bound to go out at the end of the time mentioned in the notice as he would be in the former case. Therefore he maintained now what he maintained on the previous occasion, that the distinction which his right hon. Friend sought to draw between giving up possession in one case and in the other was illusory, without foundation in law, and alto-
  1980
  gether idle. The assertion which he now made, and which he believed no lawyer would controvert, was designated by his right hon. Friend as the most monstrous proposition he had ever heard. His remarks on the former occasion were directed to the original Amendment of his hon. Friend. As the Bill stood the compensation for eviction was to apply to leases under 30 years, and also to tenancies from year to year; but his right hon. Friend proposed an Amendment which would have enabled a landlord, by converting his tenancies from year to year into tenancies for a year certain, to evade the provisions of the Bill. He reasserted his belief that that Amendment, if carried would be fatal to the principle of the 3rd clause. His right hon. Friend had, however, entirely shifted his ground since then, and now admitted not only that a tenant from year to year, but that also a tenant for a certain term—such as seven years, for instance—ought to receive damages on eviction. This question was raised by the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Dr. Ball), who proposed a 21 years' lease, and the proposal was one which the Committee might fairly discuss. The present discussion was premature as the whole subject might be much more fully debated on the Motion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin. In point of fact, his right hon. Friend (Mr. Headlam) had raised a premature—he would not say an irrelevant—discussion, and had entirely abandoned the position he assumed the other night. Not wishing to interfere with his right hon. Friend, who desired to retreat with honour, he would conclude by saying that the Government was quite disposed to accept his last proposition. The subject now reduced itself to a mere question of drafting. He trusted, therefore, that the discussion would now terminate, and that when the Committee came to the Amendment of the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin, the question of a 21 years' lease, or of a 31 years' lease would be debated, for that was the real question at issue.
  SIR FREDERICK W. HEYGATEsaid, he thought that the Committee had now arrived at an important crisis in the history of the Bill. During the Recess hon. Members had been blamed for hav-

  1981
  ing taken up so much time in discussing the principles of the Bill; but on the part of the Irish Members he wished to remark that they had only taken a very moderate period of time in discussing principles which were as new and as surprising to them as they were to Scotch and English Members. He confessed he thought at first that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle was unanswerable; but on reconsidering the matter he was obliged to admit the force of the objection raised by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury. If that Amendment were carried the Bill would fail to attain one of its principal objects. He was not saying whether he approved that object or not; but the Committee ought, at all events, to be much obliged to the right hon. Member for Newcastle for bringing the Amendment forward, and thus laying the question generally before the House of Commons and the country. It was not surprising that English and Scotch Members should take time to consider carefully the principles of this measure, because they feared they might be eventually extended to their own countries. ["No, no!"] That might, indeed, be denied; but he would remind the House that the same argument was used on the introduction of the Irish Church Bill last year. The right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government then said the circumstances of Ireland were altogether different from those of England. He ventured, however, to point out at that time that no long period would elapse before a similar measure would be passed for England, and he believed no one would venture to assert that the Church question in England, Wales, and Scotland, stood now on the same footing it did then. He would only point out to the Committee that they should take time to consider this question. Speaking as an Irish Member, he must confess he was struck by the great and overpowering necessity that there should be as little delay as possible in passing this Bill. Instead of endeavouring to alter the principles of the Bill, hon. Members ought to try to make the Bill work in the best manner possible. The abolition of free contract between landlord and tenant appeared to be one great object aimed at by the Bill, and that object could not be attained if the Amendment of the right
  1982
  hon. Member for Newcastle were agreed to. The Government had taken great credit for making great concessions to those who were interested in the ownership of landed property. Those concessions were three in number. First, the compensation to be granted to the tenant was limited to £250; secondly, the period for which the abolition of free contract was to last was limited to 20 years; and, thirdly, in the case of farms over £50 valuation, there was to be entire freedom of contract. These were not, in his opinion, concessions at all. The first amounted to nothing, because of the vast preponderance of small holdings in Ireland, and, as to the second, he must be a sanguine man, indeed, who could imagine that at the end of 20 years it would be possible to revert to the present state of things. The restrictions proposed by the Government of a 31 years' lease, by the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University (Dr. Ball) of a 21 years' lease, and by the hon. and learned Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer) of a 14 years' lease, would, he thought, be useless. The bargain between landlord and tenant varied in almost every case, and it was impossible to lay down any rule to meet the innumerable cases in which the two parties might be able of themselves to judge what was conducive to the respective interests. The intention of the Government was to set up in the future a third party, who was to be the guardian of the tenant. If Irish landlords and tenants could not be trusted to contract together, and really did not know what was for their own benefit, and if the House of Commons was about to lay down principles for the management of the property, it appeared to him indispensable that there should be some persons to whom they could apply, and whose sanction might be asked to any proceeding advantageous to both parties. It might be argued that the Government, in this Bill, had been anxious to avoid anything like a valuation of rents; but there were a hundred different points connected with property in land and its management that it was impossible to settle without having regard to the rent which was paid. With regard to a 31 years' lease, he ventured to ask whether any person had seriously thought of the real nature of such a document. A 31 years' lease represented the life of a man,

  1983
  and if the only way out of a contract was the granting of such a lease, that would put an end to all improvements during that term. He disclaimed, for himself and his Friends, the notion that there had been any intention of raising unfair obstacles to the progress of this measure; but it was not to be supposed that Irishmen could abstain from discussing a measure fraught with such grave consequences to their future, dealing freely as it did with principles that had hitherto been regarded as anxious of truth. For himself, he could say that he did not intend to utter a word further upon the measure save by way of suggesting any improvement that might occur to him. He should accept what he regarded as the principles of the Bill, trusting that in the time to come it might be productive of a good understanding between landlords and tenants, a matter more important to all classes of the country than any pecuniary gain or loss which might accrue under the provisions of the measure.
  MR. CORRANCEsaid, he wished to detain the Committee for a few moments, in the hope of preventing a Division. He had hitherto supported the Amendment of the right hon. Member (Mr. Headlam); but it appeared in the course of the argument of the hon. and learned Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer) that there was really a very important objection to it, and one that had not been foreseen by the Mover of the Amendment. This was shown by the fact that he now brought up a new proviso, which to a certain extent mot the objection. As this question impinged upon Clause 10, which related to leasing, he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would postpone the consideration of it, and bring it forward in another form and upon a more convenient occasion.
  Amendment negatived.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUmoved after "land," in line 35, to insert—
  "Provided that where the landlord has purchased from the tenant the Ulster tenant-right custom, or customs other than the tenant-right custom to which his holding is subject, such holding shall thenceforth cease to be subject to compensation under this section."
  He said that the Committee would observe that the 3rd clause, which granted compensation for the disturbance of oc-
  1984
  cupancy, applied to every farm where tenant-right or the other customs were not in force. The converse—namely, payment for tenant as well as a payment for disturbance of occupancy—would be unjust, because tenant-right consisted partly in a payment for goodwill or occupancy; and if the 3rd clause were to apply to such farms, the landlord would have to pay for the occupancy twice over. Yet if the landlord bought up the tenant-right, so that the farm, in accordance with Clause 1, became no longer subject to it, there also the present clause would apply. It was, therefore, correct to assert that the payment for disturbance of occupancy, or else the payment for tenant-right, applied to the whole of Ireland. In other words, the occupancy or goodwill was everywhere something belonging to the tenant, which had to be paid for by the landlord. The tenants were thus declared to be part owners of the soil. It might be said that this was the foreign métayer system under another form. If any one desired to learn more on that subject he might road a chapter upon it in Mr. J. S. Mill's Political Economy. Yet it was not exactly the métayer system. It would more correct to say that it was in accordance with the Irish idea that a holding in land was a subject of tenure, and not, as the English regarded it, a subject of contract. For in England the land was regarded as belonging absolutely to the landlord. This distinction seemed to him the only just or reasonable ground for applying the Bill to Ireland only, and not to England also. England was the only country in the world where the land was regarded as subject to contract. In all foreign countries to this day, and in England until lately, land was the subject of tenure. It was only in modern times, since 1688 he believed he might say, that the modern English view really obtained. In feudal times the landlord held the land by a tenure of service under the trinoda necessitas—or three-fold obligation to maintain the bridges, to maintain the highways, and to supply military defences. The tenant also held under his lord by a similar tenure of service. The land, therefore, belonged absolutely to neither; but to both, on condition of service done to the State, or service for the good of all. Let them consider foreign countries. We had carried our

  1985
  peculiar modern notions to India, where land had been held by tenure, for ages past. In India we persisted in regarding the Zemindars as landlords and the ryots as occupiers; and when disturbances arose in consequence, an Act was passed in the same modern English spirit, and the disturbances became worse. The origin of the Maori wars in New Zealand was this—the English persisted in ignoring tribal rights, and in supposing that land belonged absolutely to the apparent owner, and that he might sell it. He therefore did not deny the difference between tenure or contract, which he thought was the only principle on which they should deal with the Irish land question. Now this was his objection to the clause—when a landlord had bought up the tenure, with the consent of the occupier, it was fair that the land should afterwards be the subject of contract, and not of tenure. It was very unfair that Lord Dufferin, for example, should find that after having expended many thousands of pounds in extinguishing the tenant-right he should immediately become liable to payments under Clause 3. If such a proceeding was according to law, and agreed to by the tenant, it seemed to him that the land should then belong absolutely to the landlord, and be there-after subject to contract. On those grounds he moved his Amendment.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, he was glad to hear from the noble Lord admissions which showed that he was well aware that the conditions under which Irish tenants from year to year held their farms in the greater part of Ireland were very different from those under which English tenants, nominally holding under similar terms, really held their land. He trusted that he should be able to convince the noble Lord in a very few words that, under this settlement, the tenants with whom his Amendment proposed to deal in the North of Ireland would really in the case supposed be in precisely the came condition as the ordinary tenants in any other Province in Ireland. What the noble Lord desired to enact was that, where the tenant of a holding in Ulster had entered upon his farm without making any payment under the Ulster custom, he should not be entitled to take any benefit under the provisions of Clause 3 of the Bill. He, however, should contend that the tenant
  1986
  entering upon a farm in Ulster, without making any payment under the Ulster custom, stood in precisely the same position as a tenant entering into possession of land without payment in any other part of Ireland. The question whether any payment had been made by the tenant on entering upon his farm would be taken into consideration by the Court in determining the claims of tenants holding, not only in Ulster, but in other parts of Ireland, and this was provided for in Clause 14; but he put it to the noble Lord whether, where the Ulster tenant had come into possession of his farm under ordinary circumstances, there was any reason why, merely because he held a farm in Ulster, he should be differently dealt with in this Bill from the tenant holding under the same conditions in other parts of Ireland.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUexplained that his Amendment relating to tenancies created after the passing of the Act did not refer to tenancies from year to year; because he understood that the Prime Minister had declared that "tenancies created after the passing of the Act" would not mean tenancies from year to year, but tenancies under lease.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that the noble Lord had entirely misunderstood him upon that point.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, he had drawn up his Amendment under the impression that such was the meaning of the right hon. Gentleman. His Amendment, however, merely proposed that, where the land had passed absolutely into the hands of the landlord, he should be at liberty to let it under contract, instead of under tenure.
  MR. GOLDNEYsaid, he thought that when the noble Lord came to re-consider his Amendment he would not press it, because the question it raised had been already disposed of when Clause 1 was under discussion. When once the landlord had purchased the tenant's right the land would cease to be subject to the Ulster custom.
  Amendment negatived.
  SIR FREDERICK W. HEYGATEmoved, in page 3, line 35, after "land," to insert—
  "Nothing in this Act shall prevent any landlord and tenant contracting together by lease on such terms as they may agree upon, provided the assent of the Court to such contract is first obtained."

  1987
  The hon. Baronet said, there were many cases in which it would be desirable that the landlord and tenant should have power to contract, and if such powers were not given there would be instances in which land, in consequence, would remain unlet.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)said, he hoped the hon. Baronet, who had met the Bill very fairly throughout, and did not wish to impede its progress, would not press his Amendment, because it appeared to him to be inconsistent with the main scope of the measure. There appeared to be a great deal of misconception in the minds of many hon. Members with regard to this clause, which, after all, was not very difficult of comprehension, when taken in conjunction with the Definition Clauses at the end of the Bill. The first part of the clause related to tenancies created after the passing of the Act; while the second part related to tenancies from year to year, existing at the time of the passing of the Act, and a little further on it contained the proviso—
  "Any contract made by a tenant by virtue of which he is deprived of his right to make any claim which he would otherwise be entitled to make under this section, shall, so far as relates to such claim, be void."
  That proviso had been inserted by the Government because, after due consideration, they recognized the fact that in the present state of Irish society the Irish tenant was not in a position to make a free contract. An Amendment which would be proposed by the Government in Clause 11 would provide for freedom of contract in cases where the valuation was over £50. But in the cases of small farms the tenants would require the protection which the Bill as it now stood would afford them. It had been urged, as an objection against the Bill, that there was too much "Court" in it. He admitted that appealing to a Court in matters of this kind was an evil; but it was a necessary one to the extent the Bill carried it. To have further interference by a Court was another thing. In his opinion there was no occasion for it. Another reason why the Amendment of the hon. Baronet should not be adopted was that if a landlord could get a small tenant-farmer to agree to a bargain outside the Court, the same moral or immoral influence which had effected
  1988
  that result would induce the tenant to express his approval of it inside the Court. The Government appreciated the spirit in which the hon. Baronet had met this Bill, and he trusted that the Amendment would be withdrawn.
  SIR FREDERICK W. HEYGATEsaid, there was such an inequality in Irish valuation that a £50 valuation in one part of Ireland might be equivalent to a valuation of £80 in another part of that country. He apprehended the clause would prevent landlords from making improvements, because they could not know what claims would be made against them.
  MR. BRUENobserved that, unless the landlord and tenant agreed to the lease, they would not come into Court; and unless the lease was a good one, the Court need not ratify it.
  MR. GLADSTONEasked whether the Court would remodel a lease to which the landlord and tenant had agreed.
  SIR FREDERICK W. HEYGATEproposed that the Court should have power to refuse a ratification of the lease.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he did not think it would be possible for the Court to say that a lease was an improper one which the two parties had just agreed to. He was convinced of the perfect good faith of the hon. Baronet; but he did not think his Amendment would be an improvement. As to the inequalities of valuation alluded to by the hon. Baronet, a measure to remove those inequalities must be one of the very first adopted after the Bill became law.
  MR. CORRANCEsaid, if his hon. Friend omitted "provided, the consent of the Court is first obtained," the words that remained would be wholly unnecessary. He recommended the withdrawal of the Amendment.
  MR. G. B. GREGORYsaid, he thought it desirable to enable the Court to act in the case of a contract made for the benefit of the tenant, acting upon the same principle as that recognized in the case of a married woman, where the Court enabled her to enter into a contract, provided it was found to be one for her benefit.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEobjected to the Amendment, especially with the omission of the words respecting the consent of the Court, inasmuch

  1989
  as it would in effect renew the proposition made by the right hon. Gentleman for Newcastle (Mr. Headlam), and which the Committee had just negatived.
  DR. BALLsaid, he thought it would be well not to press the Amendment, because the necessity for some such provision might be altogether taken away or much diminished by other Amendments of which Notice had been given.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. KAVANAGHmoved, in line 39, to leave out the words "arrears of," his object being to include the whole of the rent that might be due in regard to each particular holding in the provisions of the clause.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR, IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)said, rent, unlike daily accruing interest, was not due until the gale day, and an hour after it was due it was arrears; so that nothing would be gained, on the one hand, by striking out the words, as, of course, nothing would be gained on the other by retaining them.
  DR. BALLconfessed he was in favour of the addition proposed. In popular language it was customary to apply the words arrears of rent to all rent that was due prior to the last gale.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)said, as it would come to the same thing whether the words were retained or struck out, he would assent to the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Words struck out.
  MR. W. H. GREGORYmoved, in page 3, line 39, after "arrears of rent," to insert "or otherwise." His object was to cover advances such as might be made, say for the purchase of slates for building purposes.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEobjected that the Amendment would open a very wide door indeed.
  MR. BRUENsaid, the effect of rejecting it would be to stop advances by making them irrecoverable.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. KAVANAGHmoved, in page 3, line 39, after "rent," insert "and taxes;" his object being to include any taxes that might be due upon the holding, with the amount of rent unpaid, in considering the question of deductions from the compensation claimed.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)said, his objection to the Amendment was that it would open the door to much litigation. Questions would arise as to what was the exact meaning of the words. How were taxes due to the landlord in ordinary course? The object which seemed to be aimed at would have to be attained by some other Amendment. The meaning, no doubt, was, that when the tenant quitted the holding there should be deducted from the compensation paid to him not only the rent accrued due, but any taxes which were due on the land, and which he would have had to pay had he remained in possession. That, however, would not be accomplished by the present Amendment.
  DR. BALLsaid, that what the hon. Member for Carlow aimed at appeared to be just in itself; but, owing to the construction of the proviso, the necessary Amendment could not be moved at this stage. With the permission of the hon. Member he would move an Amendment at a future stage.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. PELLmoved an Amendment to include deterioration of holding arising from "a departure from a due course of husbandry," which the words of the proviso were not sufficient to cover. As we were about to create in Ireland a compound instrument—a Court which was to have the supreme control of the land, it would be better to lay down the limits within which it was to move; and if a tenant, who pursued an unusual practice, and depreciated the value of the soil by severe cropping, went into Court with his landlord, it should be the duty of the Court to consider the condition in which the land was left, and, if it thought fit, to make a deduction from the compensation on that account.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, the words were not only not required, but, if adopted, would go too far. This kind of claim stood on a different footing to the deductions already sanctioned. This deduction would be a mere matter of estimate by the Court, which ought not to have so loose a discretion. The Amendment seemed to be founded upon certain ideas of English practice, which were not applicable to Ireland. The Bill provided for any

  1991
  such deterioration arising from the non-observance of any express or implied contract, and that the Government considered was enough to be done.
  SIR ROUNDELL PALMERsaid, not only was the Amendment unnecessary, but, if adopted, it would work absolute injustice. In ascertaining what was payable to the tenant the nature and condition of his farm would be properly considered, and, if it was not left in proper condition, it must be assumed that a suitable deduction would be made from the amount of his claim. That having been done, nothing would be more unjust than to make the deduction a second time.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. M'CARTHY DOWNINGproposed an Amendment to omit the words "or implied," in line 41 of the clause. According to the words as they stood in the Bill, the landlord might make a deduction from the money payable to the tenant in respect of deterioration of the holding from non-observance of any express or implied covenant. He believed that the retention of the word "implied" would give rise to a great deal of litigation, because it would be difficult to say what an implied covenant was. If the Committee agreed to his Amendment, he would propose to add to the end of the clause what was defined by 23 & 24 Vict. c. 154, to be an implied contract.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)trusted the Amendment would not be pressed. There were two kinds of implied covenants. One, implied by common law, was that the land should be cultivated in due course of husbandry, according to the custom of the country; and the other kind of implied covenants was created by the statute known as Mr. Cardwell's Act, so that there was no difficulty in understanding the meaning of implied covenants.
  MR. G. B. GREGORYsaid, the omission of the words would not confer much benefit upon the tenants. Implied covenants was a term well understood, and, without its retention in the Bill, tenants would be harassed by the insertion in their leases of vexatious covenants.
  MR. PELLasked if the Act referred to applied to written contracts only.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE): Yes.
  MR. PELLsaid, that being so, it showed how necessary it was to retain the words. He hoped the Amendment would be withdrawn. He ventured to think that this Amendment went as far in the wrong direction as his (Mr. Pell's) Amendment went in the right direction.
  DR. BALLopposed the Amendment. It was a common practice in Ireland to evade the stamp duty or dispense with the assistance of an attorney, by the landlord and tenant entering into an equitable agreement, which was drawn up on a sheet of letter paper, and which a Court of Equity would enforce. The adoption of the Amendment would put an end to that course of proceeding.
  MR. M'MAHONsupported the Amendment. If implied covenants were meant to be the same as those in the Act of 1860 there should be no objection to their being embodied in the clause.
  MR. BOURKEsaid, implied covenants were well understood. They were all distinctly laid down in every legal book on landlord and tenant.
  Amendment negatived.
  DR. BALLproposed, after the word "landlord," in line 42, to insert the words "and also any taxes payable by the tenant due in respect of the holding." The Amendment was merely verbal, and was instead of that given Notice of by the hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. Kavanagh).
  MR. SYNANsaid, he hoped the Government would not accede to this Amendment, now hastily proposed to the Committee. The Amendment on the Paper was one by the hon. Member for Carlow; but this was altogether a new Amendment, and in the form in which it stood would work an injustice. The poor rate was payable by the tenant; but he was entitled to a deduction from his rent to the extent of one-half. The grand jury cess, there was every reason to believe, would soon be placed on the same footing; but being now payable by the tenant, who was entitled to no deduction in respect of that payment, the entire tax would be deducted from the tenant's compensation.
  MR. M'CARTHY DOWNINGopposed the clause on account of the great facility it would afford for the commission of fraud.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)said, he had suggested an Amendment on this Amendment, to which his right hon. and learned Friend had acceded. He proposed that the words should run as follows:—
  "Also any taxes due by the tenant in respect of the holding, and not recoverable by him from the landlord."
  Words, as amended, inserted.
  MR. G. B. GREGORYmoved, in page 4, line 1, after "Act" insert "assigns."
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, the Government could not consent to the proposal, as a mere assignment stood on a very different footing from subdividing or subletting, against which, as a matter of policy, the penalty of forfeiture of the benefits arising under the clause was properly directed. Assignment should be regarded with favour rather than with disfavour; for, out of 10 transactions of this character nine substituted a solvent tenant for an insolvent one. The Amendment was, therefore, quite alien to the clause itself.
  MR. BRUENsaid, that in the portion of the country with which he was best acquainted, assignments of holdings were contrary to the rule of the estate. If, as the right hon. Gentleman opposite intimated, the object of the clause was to encourage transfers, the clause would have the effect of extending something like the custom of tenant-right to other parts of the country, to the prejudice of good agriculture.
  MR. SHERLOCKhold that the adoption of the Amendment would introduce a novel principle into the tenure of land in Ireland, and one advantageous neither to landlords nor tenants.
  MR. G. B. GREGORYsaid, that in England nothing was more common than to insert provisions against unlimited assignments, and it would be utterly intolerable if landlords were to have assignees of the tenants thrust upon them against their will.
  MR. BOURKEpointed out that one consequence of an unlimited power of assignment would be that an assignee might be brought in from any part of Ireland, even from one of the most disturbed districts. Persons, for instance, such as those who had fired at Mr. Radcliffe the other day—persons who were perfectly well known all over the
  1994
  district, and, he was sorry to say, persons who, not improbably, were very popular—might be thrust upon a landlord in the county Heath as the assignees of outgoing tenants. Surely that was an evil of a possible and a very practical nature, which the Government ought to guard against.
  SIR ROUNDELL PALMERsaid, he thought the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gregory) had jumped to an erroneous conclusion, attributable probably to a hasty reading of the clause. The clause did not say that a tenant, who by his contract, was restrained from assigning, should be at liberty to do so, or that the assignee, under such circumstances should be forced upon the landlord. All it did was to leave the matter to the free contract of the parties, and he certainly was not disposed to place any further restrictions upon this liberty of free contract than had been already done by the Government.
  DR. BALLasked for an explanation of the moaning of the word "forbidden," as used in the clause. Did it mean that subletting or subdividing must be forbidden in the original agreement, or, as he should read it, that the landlord might at any time step forward for that purpose?
  MR. BRUENdesired to explain that what he meant was, that in the case of yearly tenancy a tenant should not, without the consent of his landlord, have the right to assign more than the 12 or the six months' right which he had in his tenancy.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. W. H. GREGORYsaid, he had an Amendment to move which would make the clause more in conformity with the intention of its framers. He proposed, in page 4, line 2, after the word "sub-divides" to add the words "such holding, or sub-lets the same or any part thereof." He drew a distinction between subdividing and subletting. The clause spoke of subletting the whole holding, but not a portion of the holding.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, that he also had an Amendment against subdividing and subletting, and the deteriorating consequences which were the result of subletting the land. The clause was originally qualified by the provision that a tenant should be able to let not more than half-an-acre of land to an agricul

  1995
  tural labourer in connection with his cottage. It had appeared to him that the effect of this qualification would be to destroy the original purpose of the clause, and, therefore, on first going into Committee he gave notice of his intention to move the omission of this qualification. The Chief Secretary for Ireland had since then met his views to a considerable extent by agreeing to the omission of this qualification, and suggesting that it should be limited in this sense, that no land should be let for the erection of cottages unless an amount of 25 acres were apportioned, thus establishing a certain relation between the cottages and the soil. This certainly, to a very great degree, removed the objection which he had entertained to the original qualification. Still there was a vagueness in the words of the Chief Secretary. If the 25 acres were fair, good land, it might be a good qualification; but it might be land of a different character—marshy, boggy, unreclaimed land.
  MR. SYNANrose to Order. There were three Amendments before that of the right hon. Gentleman.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, that the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Galway raised the question of subdividing land, and the right hon. Gentleman was consequently in Order.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, that in consequence of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Galway it was necessary that he should recall his original Amendment, which the later suggestion of the Government had met to a considerable degree. He should have preferred his own Amendment; but he could not help feeling that, after the suggestion made on the part of the Government, the Committee might now arrive at a satisfactory conclusion on the matter. When the Government were disposed to meet the Committee fairly, he, remembering the responsibility under which they acted, was willing to meet them half-way, although he might not obtain all he wanted.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Words added.
  SIR JOHN GRAYsaid, that no provision could be too strong to prevent subletting and the subdivision of holdings. Such practices were a great evil to the country and a great detriment to the landlord. He did not wish, there-
  1996
  fore, to interfere with the clause prohibiting subdivisions, except as it would affect the letting of a portion of the land on con-acre. The practice of con-acre used to be injurious and mischievous to the land; but the modern practice, on the contrary, was beneficial. Men who were not able to provide manure for the whole of a farm let a small portion of land, on condition that a labourer who had more manure than he wanted for his garden manured it. In return for doing so he was allowed to take a crop from it. Many of the large farmers were able to buy sufficient manure for their land; but it was often a great advantage to the smaller farmers to have the land well manured for them, and to have the manure brought to the land to enrich it. He had spoken to many farmers, who said it would be very injurious to prevent this con-acre. It was of great advantage to the labourers as well as the farmers. Indeed, many of the agricultural labourers would be driven into crime if this clause were passed as it stood, and if con-acre were put an end to. He begged to move in page 4, line 2, leave out from "without" to "con-acre," in line 3, inclusive.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, he had just now resisted a Motion from the other side to include the subject of assignment among the forfeitures in this clause, on the ground that the extreme penalty of forfeiture was far too heavy for the questionable evil that might arise from assignment. Upon the same ground the Government had come to the conclusion, upon full consideration, that the penalty of forfeiture was not one that ought to be applied to letting in con-acre. Though the system of letting in con-acre was open to abuse, yet it was very often found to be useful, and when entered into bonâ fide was no more subletting in fact than it was in law. It was undoubtedly the case that in the neighbourhood of the Irish towns a great deal of the agrarian crime we had to deplore during the last few months had been connected with the impossibility of labouring men and others obtaining land in con-acre; and if Parliament by their present legislation were to impose a severe penalty upon the system when it was fair and bonâ fide, they would be acting in a manner opposed to the wants and feelings of the Irish people.
  COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, it seemed very extraordinary that the Government, having considered this Bill most carefully, and having placed con-acre, which was admitted by most people to be mischievous, among the subjects of forfeiture in the Bill, now, because they wished to regain the support of their Friends, which to a certain extent they had lost, proposed that con-acre should be struck out of the Bill. He would venture to say that, taken as a whole, con-acre was a very mischievous system. ["No, no!"] Hon. Gentlemen said "No;" but he knew by experience, and he had been at the trouble to inquire into the practice, that it was a mischievous system. If this Bill was a just and righteous measure there was no reason why con-acre should continue. A man who let by con-acre got, perhaps, £10, or a great deal more, per acre. ["No!"] He affirmed that it was so in many instances, and sometimes even double £10. That money did not go into the landlord's pocket, but into the pocket of the tenant, and therefore it was the interest of the man who took the land to get as much out of it as he could. But now they were legislating against those landlords who were anxious to let their lands for a term of years to larger tenants; and if Parliament allowed this con-acre system to remain it would enable persons to let grass lands on con-acre, and that the hon. Member for Kilkenny himself admitted to be a great nuisance. He was exceedingly sorry that the right hon. Gentleman had given way on this point.
  MR. W. H. GREGORYsaid, the observations made by his hon. and gallant Friend were partly true, but his conclusion was incorrect. Con-acre was sometimes mischievous, but frequently it was quite harmless, and, therefore, to apply so stringent a penalty as that proposed in this clause would be a very serious matter. He was not likely to advocate anything which would interfere with the prosperity of the country or his own property; but, in his opinion, they might omit altogether this stringent provision. As the Bill now stood they would forbid any tenant from giving by any possibility any land whatsoever to the labourer. In fact, they would simply and solely starve out every labourer in Ireland, except the few who had some land of their own. In the neighbourhood of the towns the labourers
  1998
  who dwelt there, many of whom had been evicted from estates in the neighbourhood, kept a pig, and collected manure on the roads, with which they manured the land they took in con-acre for a potato crop, and any person who had experience of the potty sessions in Ireland must know something about the quarrels which often arose, especially among the fair sex, about the manure heaps. The land was in this way greatly enriched, and the farmer got the benefit of it next year in the shape of white crops. It would be most dangerous to retain the penalty. He was, therefore, glad the Government had acceded to withdraw this clause from the Bill.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, that the clause as it stood would by no means put an end to con-acre altogether. The hon. Gentleman who had last spoken had admitted that the system was in many instances bad, though sometimes it was good. But all that the clause said was that if the tenant, against the prohibition of his landlord, proceeded to let by con-acre, he should not obtain the compensation to which he would otherwise be entitled. But the tenant might let by con-acre where there was no prohibition, and where the landlord thought it might safely be done, and, therefore, the clause was not open to the objection that the hon. Gentleman had made to it. The security which the clause contained was very reasonable and just, and, therefore, he regretted extremely that the Chief Secretary, in order to meet the divergent views of hon. Members from Ireland, had consented to expunge a provision which no doubt was inserted originally after due consideration by the Government.
  MR. O'REILLYsupported the Amendment on the ground that if the clause were retained in its present shape it would furnish bad landlords in Ireland with a great temptation to endorse on every agreement or lease a general prohibition of con-acre, not with the view of absolutely putting an end to the system, but to enable them to deprive their tenants of the right of compensation under the Bill. Con-acre was injurious as far as it was applied to corn; but that could be prevented, as it was prevented now, by penalties in the lease. He did not consider himself a bad farmer; but he had again and again given land to the labourers for a year

  1999
  for nothing that they might raise a green crop upon it, and the land was always greatly enriched by the manure. He rejoiced sincerely that the Government had assented to the Amendment.
  MR. BRUENbelieved the quantity of land let under con-acre in Ireland for purposes that were beneficial to the land bore a very small proportion to that so let for purposes that were injurious. The landlord would not be so foolish as to prohibit the system where it was beneficial to the land; but he ought to have power to forbid it where it was prejudicial. They had been told by the Chief Secretary for Ireland that many outrages had been committed in the neighbourhood in consequence of the people wanting to get land upon con-acre, and that that was the reason why he withdrew a portion of the Bill which he had previously introduced. He could not imagine a greater encouragement to increased outrages than was thus given by a Minister. He could confirm the statement made by his hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Barttelot) that land let in con-acre often brought £10 an acre to the tenant. Where good grass land was broken up—as it sometimes was—for the purpose, it would bring double that sum, and nothing could be worse than to have land broken up in that way.
  MR. SYNANsaid, the system of con-acre was very general and perfectly legal in Ireland, and the custom was not held to be a violation of the covenant against subletting, nor of any other covenant whatever. The Devon Commission, in their Report, stated that, although much had been said against the system of con-acre, some practice of that nature was essential to the comfort, and almost to the existence of the Irish peasant. Why, then, he asked, were English Members to set up their knowledge of Irish con-acre, which often amounted to no knowledge at all, against that solemn verdict of the Devon Commission?
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, that when Parliament was legislating on matters connected with Irish agriculture, and introducing a term of which there was no definition, it would be most unwise to pass the measure without letting the Committee understand what the term "con-acre" meant, and to what it might lead. It had been admitted by the hon. Member for Kilkenny (Sir John Gray), and the Chief Secretary for Ire-
  2000
  land, that practices were carried on in Ireland, under the name of con-acre, which were mischievous and ought to be checked. Why, then, should they so legislate as to encourage what was acknowledged to be so injurious. If they could permit con-acre only in the neighbourhood of towns where there was an accumulation of manure, he should be happy to see it done; but they ought not to open the door to the extension of the mischievous system in rural districts, under which men took land for speculative purposes, often leading to their own ruin.
  MR. CARNEGIEinterposed in that discussion with some diffidence; but wished to say that in Scotland it was a very common thing in the neighbourhood of towns for farmers, who were prohibited by their leases from subletting, to give small parts of their land to the people in the towns to grow their crops upon. Without expressing any very decided opinion on the matter, he would suggest whether it might not be possible, on the Report, to frame such a definition as would make the custom perfectly legal in regard to green crops, such as potatoes and turnips, and illegal as regarded corn crops.
  MR. GORDONsaid, he thought it would be wrong to legalize a system of con-acre, which was proper and beneficial in some instances, but one which was likely to be productive of injurious results if adopted generally. He would suggest, in case this Amendment should not be carried, the insertion of the following words:—"or lets the same or any part thereof in con-acre, except for green crops."
  SIR JOHN HANMERsaid, the word "con-acre" was not exclusively an Irish word. It simply meant that a farmer, for the sake of doing a friendly act, allowed his labourer to get some manure together, and plant potatoes, or any other crop which he might please. It did not amount to a subletting, and if there was anything injurious to the land, that was the landlord's affair.
  SIR ROUNDELL PALMERsaid, he thought the Government were right in the course they had taken, and it was a mistake to suppose that con-acre would thereby be legalized. The case seemed to be on all fours with that of assignments, which were sometimes prohibited, and sometimes allowed by the terms of

  2001
  the lease. By omitting all mention of con-acre from the Bill, they would not make that legal which was otherwise, but would leave it to free contract, upon which he was not disposed to put fetters. It was no part of the objects of this Bill to regulate the course of agriculture in Ireland; and if the tenant should deteriorate the land by improper con-acring, that would be taken into account in estimating the value of any claims preferred.
  MR. M'CARTHY DOWNINGsaid, he wished to thank the Government for their concession on this, which was one of the most important points in the Bill. There was a strong feeling throughout the country in favour of the change now made in the Bill, for con-acre was a vast benefit not only to the labourer, but the farmer.
  COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Synan) had denied the accuracy of his reference to the Devon Commission on this point. Now, the Commissioners expressly stated that the price of con-acre varied much in different districts, being usually about £10 a year where the land and manure were good, and sometimes as much as £12, £14, or £17 per Irish acre, while on the poorer qualities of land it was £6 an acre, or even less.
  MR. SYNANsaid, that if the hon. and gallant Gentleman went into the evidence on which this Report was based, he would find that, in these cases, the manure was supplied by the owner of the land.
  MR. M'MAHONsaid, it appeared, from the wording of the Landlord and Tenant Bill of 1852, that the framers of that Bill were entirely in favour of the con-acre system.
  DR. BALLsaid, the Government proposed that the leases should be for 31 years, and he had given Notice of an Amendment to reduce the term to 21 years; but whatever the limit might be, there would be a term of lease. As to the existing tenancies, the 3rd section did not include leases at all. It was confined to tenancies from year to year, and the operation of the clause, excepting a particular term of years, would be that practically in Ireland there would be no leases that would come under the clause. He was not disposed to give the power of con-acring to tenants from year to year, because it would be exerted to ruin
  2002
  the land at the particular moment when the tenant was about to abandon it. The original framers of the Bill appeared to be of that opinion. The con-acring which, in his experience, had always given rise to disputes, was when tenants handed over their land to other persons who had money to till it, and abandoned the occupation to those who were put in possession. He thought that this clause, as originally framed, was framed by some person who was well acquainted with Ireland and with its habits and customs.
  MR. SAMUELSONsaid, that for every instance in which con-acring was prejudicial, 10, 20, or even 100 cases could be found in which it was beneficial. He entirely agreed with the Amendment. If they did not agree to it, he thought that a spirit of dissatisfaction would be engendered among the agricultural labourers, and there would be perpetual agitation.
  Amendment agreed to.
  SIR JOHN OGILVYmoved to insert in Clause 3, page 4, line 2, after "consent," the words "in writing," and explained that his object was to remove all ambiguity in the dealings between landlords and tenants.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. KAVANAGHmoved the omission of these words—
  "With this qualification, that the letting by a tenant of a portion of land to agricultural labourers bonâ fide required for the cultivation of the holding for cottages or gardens, not exceeding half-an-acre in each case, shall not be deemed to be a sub-division or sub-letting of land for the purposes of this section."
  He moved this Amendment, because he considered that the words contained one of the most baneful interferences with the rights of landlords in the management of their properties involved in this measure—baneful to the landlord, to the labourer, and to the community at large. In legalizing sub letting, those words sanctioned one of the greatest evils to which, in his opinion, Ireland could be exposed. On the second reading of this Bill he protested strongly against their injustice, clearly foreseeing the evil consequences which they would involve. He asked the Committee impartially to consider what their effect would be. By this clause a penalty was imposed on the landlord, if he evicted a tenant for any other reasons than non-

  2003
  payment of rent. Hitherto the power of eviction had been the only direct check a landlord had to prevent his tenant from subletting his holding, and as the Bill was drawn originally it was evidently intended that he should still retain that check; but by the insertion of those words he was deprived of that most essential restraint, and of the power of either selecting or rejecting those who for the future were to be located upon him, and for whose welfare he would be responsible. He could not imagine anything more unjust; and so strongly did he feel on the subject, that if the words were retained he should consider himself quite warranted in voting for the omission of this clause from the Bill. It would deprive a landlord of the power of protecting himself against an evil which had been universally deprecated in all ages. It was directly encouraging the revival of that class of under-tenants which it had been the endeavour of every right-thinking man who had had anything to do with the management of land in Ireland to do away with—not by ejecting the unfortunate people, but by making them direct tenants, and removing them from under the thraldom of the middleman. It surely could not be necessary for him to revert to the past history of Ireland to prove that the system of subletting had been most injurious? The scenes in the famine, and even in more recent years of comparative scarcity and want, must be fresh in the memories of hon. Members on both sides of the House. The condition of some districts at the present time, where the unexpired term of some old lease showed the country as it was, swarming with a pauper population, for whose support the land they lived on was totally inadequate, driven by starvation and want to theft and other crimes, filling the poorhouses, the hospitals, and the gaols will prove that. Was that a state of things which they would wish to see revived? He could with confidence appeal to hon. Members on both sides of the House to bear him out in the assertion, that if these words were retained not many years would elapse before the country would be in the same condition. Before the Easter Recess he received a letter from an extensive landed proprietor in the counties of Kilkenny, Carlow, and Wexford, and who was justly regarded by all who knew him
  2004
  as a kind and indulgent landlord, and who was also a consistent supporter of Her Majesty's Government, and if the Committee allowed he would read it to them. The writer said—
  "I see by the papers that you intend to propose an Amendment in the Land Bill relative to labourers' cottages. I hope you will require three sleeping rooms—one for the parents, one for boys, and one for girls, not less than 12 feet square, besides the living room. I think Mr. C. Fortescue's Amendment, which appears to allow a cabin to be built upon a farm for every 25 acres, would, before long, swamp the country with paupers; if allowed at all, one for every 50 acres or 60 acres would be quite enough. In some Act, I forget which now, a proper kind of cottage is described, from which for non-payment of rent the landlords may eject, the same as weekly tenants in towns. That would probably be the proper kind to require in the Land Bill."
  Now the right hon. Gentleman, referring to the Amendment placed upon the Paper by the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and which the Committee would bear in mind was intended to qualify and render less mischievous the proviso contained in the words to which he objected, implied, and quite justly, too, that even with this Amendment the effect would be that the country would before long be "swamped with paupers." He had selected that letter from among many because it came from a supporter of the Government, and would prove, if such proof were necessary, that in opposing this proviso he was actuated by no party spirit. He failed altogether to see how it could be made a party question. There was no vital principle of the Bill involved; it was a question of simple judgment, and in its true solution he believed they were all honestly and sincerely interested. He frankly and freely admitted that he believed the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, in inserting this proviso in the clause, had been actuated by the sole object of benefiting the Irish labourer; but with every respect for him, on that plea alone, leaving out all other considerations, he could not too strongly condemn it. Again, appealing to hon. Members on both sides of the House, he could with confidence assert that the condition of the Irish peasant holding under a middleman was a wretched and deplorable one, kept in a position of the most abject dependence, charged an exorbitant rent for a miserable hovel, with the floor, perhaps, inches deep in filth and mud—perhaps no chimney, perhaps

  2005
  no window; the walls—if they deserved the name, propped up with sticks, looking as if each gust of wind would blow them down; the roof only sufficient to keep out the sun; and for the privilege of claiming this as a home, the labourer, besides, as he had said, paying a high rent, was bound to give his labour to his landlord in the busy time of year for less than half the wages he could obtain in the market, and in the slack time of year, when it was difficult to obtain employment, he might find it where he could or else starve. If the Committee would allow him he would read to them a few extracts from Reports of Poor Law Inspectors on the condition of agricultural labourers in Ireland. Dr. King, in his Report, said—
  "The wretched miserable cabins they have to live in, and for which occasionally they have to pay high rents, considering the accommodation afforded,"
  were one of the causes of the discontent of the agricultural labourers, while another was—
  "The expectations raised in their minds by popular writers and speakers which never can be realized."
  Mr. Robinson said—
  "Different causes have been assigned for this discontent, but the two principal reasons appear to be the uncertainty of work in winter and the manner in which these people are housed. Those who work for owners cultivating their own lands, and for some of the tenant-farmers who hold extensive farms are often provided with suitable well-built cottages and are regularly employed, and labourers so circumstanced are, as far as I can learn, contented, and have no sufficient cause to be otherwise; but this is not so with a large proportion of the population."
  Mr. O'Brien's Report contained the following passage:—
  "The replies I have received from various districts, and from the most unquestionable sources, coincide to a striking degree in describing the house and lodging accommodation of the agricultural labourers as being in the great majority of instances extremely wretched in every way."
  Now, all these Reports went to prove that where discontent prevailed bad dwellings and want of regular employment were the chief causes. Mr. Bourke, in his Report, stated that there was little community between the farmer and the labourer—a constant struggle between them about wages. He had been now 17 years resident on his own property in Ireland, during which time he had taken a very active part in the management of it. His great object had been to improve
  2006
  the condition of the labouring classes, and he had found that the most effectual way to do that was to render them independent of the farmers. The most frequent cases of dispute that had been brought before him to settle had been between middlemen and their tenants, the farmer wanting to turn a man and his family out on the road because he would not work for him for nothing; the tenant coming to complain that he held a wretched but at an exorbitant rent, and that the farmer would not even give him a wisp of straw to repair the roof. By degrees he was happy to say he had got the greater portion of the labourers now on his property as direct tenants; but to do this he had to build 86 new cottages at a cost of considerably over £4,000, besides repairing innumerable others, to each of which he had attached a piece of ground. On almost everyone of the adjoining estates he found the same course pursued. Captain Beresford, whose property adjoined his, had within the last six or eight years built 27 new cottages at a cost of over £1,500. His hon. Colleague, the Earl of Bessborough, the right hon. Colonel Tighe—the writer of the letter which he read to the Committee—and many others, were working in the same direction, and neatly built slated cottages, cleanly kept, with every appearance of comfort, were now yearly springing up in all parts, taking the place of the squalid hovel—the hotbed of disease. Sanitary committees had been at work throughout the land, giving their time gratuitously, to enforce and encourage cleanliness, and so to remove the causes of fever and those other epidemics which, in former days, used to come like a scourge among the poor. But now all their efforts, all their pain, were to be rendered useless, and the door must be opened again to flood their properties with a pauper population. Every vagrant that could persuade a tenant to let him half-an-acre of land whereon to squat might come, no matter what his character, and throw up a shed against a ditch, where, with a precarious living, with theft to help the half-acre which could not possibly support him, he would eke out a miserable existence a prey to pestilence and want. It might be urged is a defence that such a state of affairs would be prevented by the words "bonâ fide required for the cultivation of the holding." But he wanted to know who

  2007
  was to be the judge of this fact? Did ever anyone know of an Irish tenant-farmer holding only 25 acres of land giving permanent employment to a labourer? So far as his knowledge went, it was exactly the reverse, and throughout the whole year he never gave one day's employment to a labourer. If his own family was not sufficient to carry on the work of the farm, he employed a servant boy who lived with him at a low rate of wages because he was lodged and boarded. A day labourer required ready money payment, and that was the very commodity which a 25-acre holder was often scarce in. In the busy times of year—seed-time and harvest—he helped his neighbours and his neighbours helped him in turn; so that he managed to get along without a cash expenditure, by giving his own labour as an equivalent for the extra help which he required. With that class of farmer it was much more common for him to go out with his horse for hire than to be an employer of paid labour himself. The Amendment of the Chief Secretary, limiting the number of such cottages to not more than one in every 25 acres, was, no doubt, intended as a sort of check; but what did it do? It allowed every man who held an acre of land to sub let half of it. He was not obliged to build the cottage. Any wanderer he chose to let it to might do that for himself, of any sort or description he liked. If that was to be permitted, we should soon have pestilence and famine again staring us in the face, and a far more discontented, because a starving population, affording willing tools to forward the views of the political agitator, who, so long as he had such a harvest to reap, would never cease out of the land. The condition of the Irish labourer afforded an ample field for beneficial legislation quite distinct from this Bill, and towards that object no one would more gladly help than himself. He hoped, presumptuous as it might appear to think that any plea he could use would have much weight, that Her Majesty's Government would consent to omit this provision from their Bill.
  Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 7, to leave out from the word "with," to the word "section," in line 12, both inclusive.—(Mr. Kavanagh.)
  MR. W. H. GREGORYsaid, this question affected the condition of the most miserable, and consequently the most discontented, portion of Ireland—namely, the labouring classes. He believed that he and his hon. Friend the Member for Carlow were both animated by the same motive in wishing to omit the latter portion of this sub-section. It appeared to him that the latter portion of the sub-section was inconsistent with its commencement. The commencement was directed against subdivision; but if the Committee passed the latter portion, he was afraid they would be sanctioning subdivision in a most dangerous manner. The whole question of legislating for the agricultural labourers of Ireland ought to be treated in a separate clause, with far greater minuteness, and he would vote for the present clause if the Government would consent to the addition of these words—"Provided the same be done in a manner hereinafter mentioned." This would permit a clause to be afterwards introduced, dealing with the whole question concerning agricultural labourers. If the Government were unwilling to assent to that, he would move that the clause which stood in his name, and which he had at first intended to move as a separate clause, should be introduced into the Bill in the shape of an addition to the clause now under discussion. He would not, however, bring forward that Motion until he had ascertained the intentions of the Government in reference to the subject.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEremarked that his hon. Friend the Member for Carlow (Mr. Kavanagh) was quite right when he said that the Government were desirous, by adding words to this portion of the clause, to promote the interests of the agricultural labourers of Ireland. To speak more accurately, the Government wished to take precaution that the operation of this clause should not put the labourers in a worse position than they occupied at present. The Government were of opinion that if they were to place under the penalty of a forfeiture of the privileges conferred by this clause transactions for the benefit of the agricultural labourer, he would be worse off than he is now. His belief was that the clause, as he proposed to alter it by the Amendment which stood in his name, would prevent such a result without incurring any danger of reviving

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  the system of subdivision or subletting, which, by the words at the commencement of the clause, were altogether prohibited. The hon. Member for Carlow had spoken as if it were the question of subletting which the Committee had to discuss over again. This was not, however, the view of the Government, who thought they had so guarded this proviso that the question at issue was not that of injurious subletting, but merely whether a tenant should be permitted to provide a dwelling and a garden on fair terms, and where they were bonâ fide required, for his agricultural labourer, without being subject to the penalty of forfeiture under this clause. He denied that by doing this the Government raised again the question of subletting, which had been already disposed of. His hon. Friend the Member for Galway (Mr. W. H. Gregory) was very nervous with regard to this point of the clause, and desired to introduce a very elaborate set of provisions, which, after careful consideration, he confessed he did not think at all necessary. This part of the clause had been framed with great care, and he felt convinced it would not open the door to any injurious subletting, but would merely have the effect of permitting an Irish farmer to provide a dwelling and a garden for agricultural labourers bonâ fide employed on his farm. The limitation of one such labourer's house and garden to every 25 acres, which would be proposed in the Amendment that stood in his name, was a very important limitation, and would carry out the object of every Gentleman who entertained a great dislike to subletting. The Government did not propose to confer any new and special benefit on the agricultural labourers, but to prevent them from suffering any injury from a Bill which was mainly intended to benefit another class.
  MR. W. ORMSBY-GOREsuggested that one cottage and garden should be allowed for every £25 value instead of every 25 acres. He had received a letter from Ireland, the writer of which said—
  "Is Mr. Fortescue so foolish as not to know that acreage is no test of value, and that the only fair criterion is the Poor Law valuation. Thousands of tenants hold 40 acres, and do not pay 40 s., or half of that amount."
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, the amount of labour required on
  2010
  a farm did not depend on its valuation, but on its extent.
  MR. W. ORMSBY-GOREdiffered from the right hon. Gentleman. He had a farm of 380 acres, which was let at its full value—namely, £7 a year.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, the hon. Gentleman probably referred to grazing farms, which it was intended to exempt from the operation of this part of the Bill.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, the proviso would only have reference to labourers bonâ fide required for the cultivation of the land.
  SIR GEORGE COLTHURSTasked, what security there would be that farmers should erect proper buildings for their labourers? The houses which Irish farmers at present built for their labourers were mere hovels, and the Bill provided no security against buildings hereafter to be erected being of the same description.
  MR. J. S. HARDYsaid, he thought that if the landlord was ready to provide a cottage for the labourer, the tenant should not be allowed to subdivide his land for the purpose.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, he did not believe the Irish tenant-farmer would be so enthusiastic as to build labourers' cottages at his own expense if he found the landlord would do it for him. If the landlord provided the houses of course the question would not arise at all.
  MR. J. S. HARDYsaid, he knew cases in England where the tenant-farmer was most anxious to have the holdings in his own hands, because he wanted to build a cheap class of cottages, to charge high rents for them, and thus to grind down the labourers. After listening to the hon. Member for Carlow, he had no doubt whatever that this would be much more the case in Ireland than in England, and therefore a clause ought to be inserted to the effect that where the landlord was willing to build labourers' cottages the tenant-farmer should not be allowed to subdivide.
  MR. POLLARD-URQUHARTlooked upon the clause as a very valuable one, and one that would prove an antidote to many evils.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, there was nothing in the clause as it stood to prevent these half-acre tenants from having tenant-right, and in that case he wished to know

  2011
  who was to compensate them in case of ejection, the superior landlord or the tenant-farmer.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEreferred the right hon. Member to Clause 11, the 2nd sub-section of which prevented a hired labourer or servant of a landlord obtaining compensation, and to the Interpretation Clause, under which the tenant-farmer would in the case of such letting to his labourer be the landlord for the purposes of the Act.
  MR. BRUENsaid, the point raised by the hon. Member for Rye (Mr. J. S. Hardy) was most important. Everybody who knew Ireland was aware that the class of cottages built by tenant-farmers for their labourers was very inferior, while the rent charged was very high. Landlords were building improved cottages; but if the sub-section under discussion were passed they would in future be prevented from doing so, because the tenant-farmer would rather have a low class of cottages with a high rent than good cottages with a moderate rent. He would like to see the scheme of the hon. Member for Galway adopted. The landlords of Ireland were sincerely anxious to see the position of their agricultural labourers improved; but this would never be the case as long as those labourers were made the under tenants of the farmers. He should like to know whether the labourers holdings' would be entitled to compensation?
  MR. HENLEYsaid, that if Clause 11 stood as it was at present tenant-right would exist in the case of the labourers' holdings, unless those holdings happened to be occupied by a man who worked for the tenant or the landlord.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, that the definition of the word landlord as given in the Bill would prevent such a thing. The holding must be bonâ fide for the purpose of the cultivation of the land, and there must only be one such for every 25 acres.
  MR. HENLEY, reverting to the point he had already raised, said that the landlord A might let B build a cottage on a half-acre of land, and let it to C; but C might work for D or E, who had nothing to do with A, the superior landlord, or B, who built the cottage. Although the labourer's cottage might be necessary for the particular holding, there was nothing in the clause to secure that the man who worked on the farm,
  2012
  and no other, should be the occupant of the cottage.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)submitted that there was really no difficulty in the point. The Bill distinctly stated that in cases of subdivision or subletting without the consent of the landlord there would be no claim for compensation. If a tenant let half-an-acre to a labourer, he stood to the labourer in relation of landlord for that purpose. If there was any question of A and B in the matter, he thought the whole subject was an A B C question.
  MR. HENLEYobserved, that there could be no mistake as to who was the landlord; but the question was, whether there was anything in either of the two clauses to insure that the person who laboured for the tenant should occupy the particular cottage on the holding, and to restrain the cottage from being occupied by any person who was not a hired labourer working for the tenant, and who, therefore, might setup a claim to compensation under the Bill.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEremarked, that as the Bill stood at present, no greater number of cottages were to be built than were actually required by labourers bonâ fide engaged in the cultivation of the farm. If any person inhabited a cottage upon a holding who was not required for the cultivation of the farm, he could be turned out. [Ironical cheers.] The cottages were intended for the use of the labourers on the particular holding, and the Government had no desire to prevent the farmer from changing his labourers when he thought fit, and from turning any labourer he chose out of his cottage. [Ironical cheers.] That statement appeared to amuse hon. Members opposite; but he saw nothing singular in it. The labourer's cottage and garden formed part of his remuneration, and when the farmer wished to change his labourer, of course the cottage and garden must go to the new labourer. The hon. and gallant Member opposite (Colonel Stuart Knox) appeared to have become suddenly very much interested on behalf of the labourer; but he must recollect that it would not do to compel a farmer to retain a labourer to whom he might have some objection.
  DR. BALLsaid, it was, no doubt, a very important point whether or not a labourer was to be enabled to claim com-

  2013
  pensation for disturbance under the 3rd clause of the Bill; but he had arrived at the same conclusion with the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland that the labourer would have no such claim, although, curiously enough, for different reasons to those put forward by the right hon. Gentleman and by the Solicitor General for Ireland. The Interpretation Clause, in defining the meaning of the word "holding," proposed to enact that the term "holding" shall mean a farm or other holding of a tenant which is agricultural or pastoral in its character, or partly agricultural and partly pastoral. Now, it could never enter into any person's mind that a small cottage and half-an-acre of garden could be called an agricultural or pastoral holding, and it was only the tenant of such a holding that could claim compensation under the Bill. It was, however, easy to place the matter beyond dispute by adding words to the Interpretation Clause, which should exclude cottages and gardens from the operation of the Bill. In his opinion the terms of the 11th clause might be defeated by a man building a cottage for a labourer, and then placing his son in it, who, in the event of being disturbed in his possession, would have a claim for compensation. He thought it would be as well to adopt the carefully drawn Amendment of the hon. Member for Galway, which proposed to prevent the building of cottages upon holdings of less than 25 acres.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that an Amendment would be proposed on behalf of the Government at a future stage, which would carry out that object.
  DR. BALLsaid, he was glad to hear that the Government were prepared to make such an important concession.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEreminded the right hon. and learned Member that such a restriction would only apply in cases where the consent of the landlord to the building of additional cottages had not been obtained. He thought that the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), with regard to farms of loss than 25 acres, was in accordance with the one of which he had given Notice on the part of the Government.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. DOWSE)remarked that if a tenant let a cottage and quarter-of-
  2014
  an-acre to a person who was really required for the cultivation of the farm, there was no subdivision; but if he put into the cottage some one who was not a bonâ fide labourer, he thus sub divided his land, and if he did this without the consent of his landlord, he lost his claim for compensation.
  COLONEL STUART KNOXremarked that he had been taunted by the Chief Secretary for Ireland with having shown a sudden partiality for the labourer. In his opinion, the labourer required more protection than the tenant - farmer of Ireland. Although the avowed object of the scheme was to prevent evictions, the Government had just stated that the poor labourers were to be turned out of their small holdings at the caprice of their employers, and were to be sent through the country begging their bread. This was the great boon that the Government proposed to confer upon the poor occupiers of Ireland.
  MR. W. H. GREGORYsaid, he thought the hon. Gentlemen who opposed, his Amendment could not have seen the structures which were called cottages in Ireland, or they would have known that those places presented a picture of filth, squalor, and disease. He desired that this Bill should be a measure of progress, and not of retrogression. Fully one-half the crime committed in Ireland was committed by the labouring classes, and arose from the recklessness in that class owing to their miserable condition, which he would like this Bill to be a means of improving; but he knew what the effect of the clause would be as it stood, unless some provisions were made affecting the character of the houses which were to be raised. There would be miserable hovels of sticks raised up against a wall, and for such a miserable hovel, with half-an-acre of the worst land, a most exorbitant rent would be required. What he wanted was that the Committee should do something to secure that the dwelling built for the labourer should be one fit to be inhabited by a human being. He had given Notice of a clause which he thought would effect that object. He proposed that no tenant on any holding should erect any labourer's cottage on his holding without first applying to the landlord for liberty to do so. In case the landlord should decline to erect the cottage the tenant might do so, provided

  2015
  the total of such cottages on such holding should, in no case, exceed more than one cottage for every 25 acres, and provided that no cottage should be erected on a holding less than 25 acres. To every cottage erected in pursuance of this Act, a garden not exceeding one acre might be attached by the tenant, and in such case the garden should be held direct from the landlord. About the latter point he was indifferent; but he did think it important that the Court should have power to modify the structural requirements of labourers' cottages as laid down in the Cottier Tenant (Ireland) Act of 1856. If the clause were left as it stood, it would lead to the propagation of evils of which they now complained.
  MR. WHITWELLregretted that a discussion on the important subject just referred to by the hon. Member for Galway should have been raised on a prohibitory portion of the 3rd clause. He hoped, however, that every Member of that House would lend his aid to improve the condition of the Irish labourer. He thought that the introduction of a separate clause might best meet the justice of the case.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he could not but think there was some misapprehension on the subject they were discussing. His hon. Friend the Member for Galway (Mr. W. H. Gregory) was dilating upon the wretched character of the cabins in which the Irish peasantry lived, and he was cheered as if the effect of the Amendment would be to secure the erection of excellent cottages for the Irish labourers. But the effect of the Amendment of his hon. Friend would not be to secure the erection of a single cottage. If his hon. Friend objected that these cottages would be, or might be, very bad or indifferent, at any rate, there was this to be said in reply, that they would be better for the labourers, all things taken together, than the cottages in which, but for them, they would have to live; because the labourers had no motive whatever to go into them except that they would be advantageous to them compared with those they would otherwise have at their command. But what he wished to point out to his hon. Friend was this—that there was no reason in the world why that question should not be separately raised. It was highly inconvenient to mix up the question of these cottages with that which
  2016
  the Committee were now considering—namely, whether the forfeiture incident to subletting should be applied to certain cases which might be defined afterwards.
  Mr. C. S. READsaid, he understood the usual plan of building labourers' cottages on a farm in Ireland was, that the farmer assigned to his labourer half-an-acre of the worst land on the farm, which the labourer reclaimed; and then, perhaps, with the aid of a few sticks that the farmer gave him, the labourer built his cottage upon it. If he understood the matter rightly, a farmer would be at perfect liberty to turn a labourer out of one of these cottages without giving him any compensation for his reclamation of land, or building a cabin; whereas the farmer, under this Bill, would be entitled to claim compensation from the landlord for that reclamation, and for the building which had been erected at the expense of the labourer.
  MR. BAGWELLsaid, that this was a clause for "re-cottiering" Ireland. Under this clause, a very wretched description of cabins would be built; but there was another consideration. Supposing a farmer to have five sons, and that to each of four younger ones he gave a cottage, and supposing that at his death he left his farm to his eldest son, what would be the position of the son? He would find his four brothers holding under him. Under such circumstances, the farm would be no paradise to him. What the Government ought to do was—abolish the Union rating, and leave the building of cottages to the operation of free trade. There was no property that paid so well as well-built and fairly regulated cottage property. He had an enormous number of such cottages himself, and he knew that there was no better property. If the provision of the Bill with reference to the building of cottages passed without modification, the result, in many cases, would be that the labourer would have to depend for his life's breath on the farmer, who was not generally very tender-hearted. There was nothing but this one clause that could do any harm; and he, therefore, trusted the Government would listen to the appeal made to them, and supported by the experience of the hon. Member for Galway, and that they would postpone this matter until it could be considered on a broader

  2017
  proposition for the housing of the labouring classes.
  Question put, "That the words 'with this qualification' stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided—Ayes 284; Noes 218: Majority 66.
  MR. KAVANAGHthen moved to insert after "that," in page 4, line 7, the words "in the case of holdings exceeding 25 acres in extent of tillage land," his object being to limit the number of cottages on small holdings.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, that this was the Amendment of which the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) had expressed his approval, and the Government were quite willing to agree to it.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he thought it better that the wording of the Amendment should be—"in the case of holdings of 25 acres and upwards of tillage land."
  MR. KAVANAGHassented.
  MR. W. ORMSBY-GOREconcurred in the object of the Amendment; but, in order to provide that the land should be bonâ fide tillage land, he suggested the introduction of words declaring that the land must have been under tillage for not less than five years.
  MR. SYNANobjected to the insertion of the word "tillage," and suggested the substitution of the word "arable." In a farm of 100 acres, there might be only 25 acres of tillage land, because tillage land was actually land in tillage. He objected to drawing a line at 25 acres. The arrangement of the line ought to be left to the landlord and tenant.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEexplained that they had agreed to the introduction of the words because grass land required a smaller number of labourers. Tillage land included land sometimes in grass, and on which the crops were taken in rotation.
  Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
  MR. BRUENmoved, in page 4, line 8, after "land," insert "other than town parks on which the occupier does not reside, and holdings in towns and villages."
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, the Amendment was totally unnecessary, town parks being already ex-
  2018
  cepted from the operation of the Bill. A holding was defined to be a farm.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. PELLmoved the insertion, after "bonâ fide required for," of the words "and employed in" the cultivation of the holding. As the clause stood a labourer, might after he had built a cottage and reclaimed land, be evicted without compensation. He proposed, by the introduction of the words, to throw a protection round the labourers.
  Amendment proposed, in line 9, after the words "required for," to insert the words "and employed in."—(Mr. Pell.)
  MR. SYNANopposed the Amendment. The words imported that the labourer must be employed in the cultivation of the holding before the cottage was built.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, he did not think the words really added anything to the meaning of the clause, and it was possible they might, from their strict legal interpretation, have an injurious effect on the tenant-farmer, which was not intended.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 210; Noes 270: Majority 60.
  MR. CHARLEYmoved that the Chairman report Progress.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he hoped the hon. Gentleman would not persevere in his Motion. The Committee had now come to within the narrowest possible point of settling this matter; and it could scarcely be expected that they should not come to a decision, when the only serious step to he taken was to add the Amendment proposed by his right hon. Friend (Mr. C. Fortescue), which would carry out the principle which had been adopted by the Committee in reference to the limitation of the power of granting allotment of 25 acres of tillage ground, and to which he believed there was no opposition.
  LORD HENRY THYNNEdirected the Chairman's attention to the fact that Progress had been moved.
  MR. DISRAELIsuggested that the Motion should be withdrawn, on the dear understanding that when this matter was concluded Progress should be reported.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIR HERVEY BRUCErose to move an Amendment restricting the 25 acres to the building of cottages.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE: The hon. Member has moved the Amendment of which I had given Notice on the Paper.
  SIR HERVEY BRUCE: I have put the Amendment in the proper place.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEmoved, in page 4, line 10, after "case," insert—
  "And not being in number such as to raise the total of such cottages on the holding to more than one for every 25 acres thereof."
  SIR HERVEY BRUCEsaid, he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would at the end of his Amendment insert the words "of tillage land" instead of the word "thereof."
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEassented.
  Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
  MR. KAVANAGHproposed to insert words defining the kind of cottage that should be provided for the labourer, with the view that it should be fit to live in.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, he hoped his hon. Friend would not press his Amendment, the effect of which would be to inflict the penalty of forfeiture on the tenant-farmer if the labourer's cottage had not a sufficient chimney, if the window did not open properly, and so on.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. RUSSELL GURNEYsaid, as they had spent half-an-hour in discussing that on which they were stated to be all agreed, he should move that the Chairman report Progress.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, he hoped, as they had all but finished, the right hon. Gentleman would not persevere with the Motion.
  MR. GLADSTONEput it to the right hon. Gentleman that there was an understanding that the sub-section should be finished.
  MR. RUSSELL GURNEYsaid, that understanding was arrived at on the distinct intimation that they were all agreed.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, the understanding was that there was only one Amendment of the Chief Secretary to be
  2020
  proposed; but now it was found there were others. ["No!"]
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, that there were only two Amendments remaining, one of which he knew would be withdrawn.
  MR. W. H. GREGORYconsented to withdraw his Amendment.
  MR. GLADSTONE, in consenting to have Progress reported, said, that seeing the Paper was very full for to-morrow night he proposed, to put the Bill down for Monday; but he hoped next Friday the Paper would not be so full, because in the case of a Bill of that importance it had always been the endeavour to obtain more than two nights in the week.
  House resumed.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  NATURALIZATION BILL—(Lords.) [BILL 86.] CONSIDERATION.
  Bill, as amended, considered.
  MR. VERNON HARCOURTrose to move certain clauses of which he had given notice. He proposed, he said, to omit the 4th clause in order to insert an Amendment, the effect of which would be to declare that the children of foreigners born in this country should not, by the fact of their birth alone, be regarded as British subjects, but should be regarded as aliens until they were naturalized. Why should they give to aliens merely because they were accidentally born in this country, and whose mothers, perhaps, had been in England only for a few days or a few weeks, the privileges of British subjects, which they might not desire? privileges which, it must be remembered, descended even to their children and grandchildren. Could it be maintained that they either could or ought to enforce against those persons when they went abroad, the obligations of British subjects as they would enforce them against British subjects in the ordinary sense of the word? Their experience of such cases as those of the famous Don Pacifico and the Baron de Bode showed the inexpediency of our undertaking to give to that class of persons the same protection as we were bound to extend to bonâ fide British subjects. Such a doctrine violated the principle of the Bill, which was that they

  2021
  should terminate the double allegiance. The children of foreigners, by the law of all countries, retain the allegiance of their parents, and we ought not to seek to confer on them in addition the artificial character of British subjects. A strong opinion had been pronounced by the Lord Chief Justice of England on the subject, and he hoped the Government would be able to assent to the Amendment, which was entirely in accordance with the principle of the Bill.
  Clause (Children of alien father subjects of foreign states,)—(Mr. Vernon Harcourt,)—brought up, and read the first time.
  SIR ROUNDELL PALMERsaid, the Bill was intended to fulfil a practical and also an urgent object—namely, to terminate certain practical difficulties with the United States of America, and to give effect to the Convention which had been entered into with that country. If the propositions of his hon. and learned Friend were now adopted, not only would they be entering, without an opportunity for sufficient consideration, into a subject of very great difficulty and very large importance, but they might be introducing an element of confusion and practical difficulty into those very relations with the United States which it was the main object of the Convention which had been entered into to settle. His hon. and learned Friend expressed rather what he wished to see accomplished than anything which the Bill attempted to accomplish, or which this country by itself could accomplish, when he said the main principle of the Bill was to get rid of double allegiance—an object which could not be completely attained without the consent of other nations. The Commissioners thought it important to have such a rule as would at once get rid practically of difficulties with other countries abroad, and, at the same time, not introduce any unnecessary difficulties at home. They had to deal, practically, not with rare and extraordinary cases of transitory foreigners, but with the far more common and numerous cases of children born in this country—the children of persons long resident here for purposes of trade, foreigners by birth, and, perhaps, still by nationality; persons, the great majority of whom had not thought it worth while, and, under any change of the
  2022
  law, might never think it worth while, to get letters of naturalization; and if, for the sake of any uniform theory, the status of these children were made to follow the status of the parents as to nationality, a practical hardship and disability would be inflicted upon a large and important class of persons who, as the law now stood, became upon their birth British citizens, and often proved to be most valuable British citizens. At this moment he believed there were in the House Members who were the sons of foreigners resident in England, and who were yet as good Englishmen as any whom he now addressed. The Commissioners, therefore, recommended that if a child were born in this country of an alien father he should still have the privileges of a British subject by reason of his birth, unless, when he came of age, he made a declaration that he wished to be considered an alien. The principle of thus constituting a primâ facie nationality, with a power of choice on the attainment of majority, was acted upon in some other countries, and seemed to meet every practical object. On the other hand, the Commissioners recommended that, while we should continue to offer the privileges of British nationality to children of British subjects born abroad, those privileges should not be asserted in a sense inconsistent with the allegiance which those persons might owe to the country in which they were born. He could not agree with his hon. and learned Friend as to the universal prevalence abroad of the theory he advocated; and to attempt to apply such a theory in practice would land us in difficulties of a very serious character. For instance, the rule did not obtain in the United States, which asserted, like ourselves, that birth gave citizenship. The child of a British father born in the United States became an American citizen, and few emigrants there, in comparison with the whole number, naturalized themselves. What, then, would be the consequence of adopting the suggestion, that, for good or for evil, for all purposes whatever, everybody born of a British father in the United States, when the father was not naturalized there, should be deemed a British subject? The United States desired to encourage emigration, and would not for a moment adopt that view. In Denmark, in Holland, and in Portugal, the children of

  2023
  foreigners not naturalized born in those countries were considered the subjects of those countries, and in Italy also the birth determined the nationality. But his hon. and learned Friend proposed that, after the passing of the Act—
  "No person born within the dominions of Her Majesty of an alien father, which person at the time of his birth became under the law of any foreign state a subject of such state, shall be deemed a British subject by reason only of his birth within the dominions of Her Majesty."
  No doubt that proposal was intended to meet certain difficulties in the case; but it could not be carried out, because it would involve perpetual inquiries into the laws of all foreign countries to determine whether the child of an alien was a British subject or not. To be obliged for all purposes of Parliamentary and municipal franchises to ascertain whether the father at the birth of the child was a citizen of a foreign country, and to determine this point, not by our own law, but by the law of other nations, would introduce the greatest uncertainty. You could not refer to a simple, uniform rule on this subject in other countries. For example, a Frenchman who had lived here without the purpose of returning to France was no longer a Frenchman, and you could not, therefore, determine nationality in such a case without going into the question of domicil; the practical difficulties of which, in the unanimous judgment of the Commissioners, made its adoption as a test of nationality impossible, however proper it might seem to be in theory. A Prussian living here for 10 years ceased to be a Prussian subject; and, therefore, according to the theory of his hon. and learned Friend, a child of such a father born in the 11th month of the 10th year of such residence would be a Prussian child, but if born after the completion of the 10th year, it would be English. Again, a Spaniard or Italian would lose his nationality if he accepted foreign service. Thus, under the rule proposed by his hon. and learned Friend, many persons might have no nationality at all, for their parents being primâ facie foreigners, you could not, without minute inquiry into questions of fact, of which the proof might often be difficult, and questions of foreign law, as applied to those facts, tell whether they were British subjects or aliens. All these were at least reasons for not hastily changing the law, and he sub-
  2024
  mitted that every reasonable object was answered by the 4th clause of the Bill. All countries had, with practical uniformity, admitted that statutory legislation, giving rights as citizens, in this or in any other nation, to those who, by the law which touched them locally at their birth, and by the principles of International Law, owed a primary allegiance as subjects to some other State, could not operate upon those persons, without their own consent, so as to impose upon them any obligations inconsistent with their natural allegiance. Whatever might be the letter of the statutes, as to "all intents and purposes whatsoever"—and words as strong had received a reasonable interpretation, qualifying their effect, in many other cases—there had never arisen from them, in practice, any real difficulty at all.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, that the Bill did not express any opinion, but attempted to give to both sides the greatest facilities for getting rid of or retaking allegiance to this country. There was very much to be said for the theoretical views of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford (Mr. V. Harcourt); but after careful consideration the Government had resolved to keep this matter out of the Bill, which was not a nationality one, but related only to expatriation and repatriation. Therefore, the hon. and learned Gentleman's observations were not relevant to the subject, and he could not accede to the proposition.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the said Clause be now read a second time," put, and negatived.
  MR. VERNON HARCOURTformally moved his other clause, which he said was founded on the unanimous recommendation of the Commissioners. He hoped that the House would not deal with this question, as the hon. and learned Member for Richmond seemed to desire, by dealing with it in sections in successive Sessions of Parliament. Surely, there might now be passed a clause as to which there was no difference of opinion in any country in the world, and which was founded on the words of the statute in force in America.
  Clause (Children of British subjects born in foreign states,)—(Mr. Vernon Harcourt,)—brought up, and read the first time.
  SIR ROUNDELL PALMERsaid, he remained of the same opinion as to this subject, and he had no intention of conveying the idea that the House ought always to be altering this part of the law. But the present Bill did not seek to repeal the existing statutes on this matter, and although, on this point, the Commissioners had expressed a unanimous opinion, yet the House could hardly deal with so important a matter in a summary way upon that opinion alone, in a Bill which, as introduced by the Government, did not relate to that question.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALtrusted that the House would keep to the simple object of the Bill, and not deal with a subject which required much consideration and negotiation.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the said Clause be now read a second time," put, and negatived.
  MR. CHARLEYmoved, in Clause 1, page 1, line 10, to leave out "real and," and in line 11, after "alien" to insert
  "And real property of every description may be taken, acquired, held, and disposed of by an alien becoming such in pursuance of this Act."
  Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 10, to leave out the words "real and."—(Mr. Charley.)
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, it was impossible for the Government to accede to the Amendment. If it were adopted, persons disavowing British nationality, who might have gone to America and returned to this country for purposes for which some persons did return, would have a right to acquire real property which would be denied to a French nobleman.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
  Bill to be read the third time upon Monday next.

CONVENTUAL AND MONASTIC INSTITUTIONS.

  MOTION FOR NOMINATION OF SELECT COMMITTEE. ADJOURNED DEBATE.
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to Question [8th April], "That the Select Committee on Conventual and Monastic
  2026
  Institutions be nominated by the Committee of Selection:"—(Mr. Newdegate:)—And which Amendment was,
  To leave out from the words "That the" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "Order for the appointment of the Select Committee on Conventual and Monastic Institutions be discharged,"—(Mr. Cogan,)
  —instead thereof.
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be Left out stand part of the Question."
  Debate resumed.
  MR. PEASEmoved the adjournment of the debate.
  MR. SCOURFIELDsaid, that as he was not aware that the Chairman or any other Member of the Committee of Selection was present in the House, with the exception of himself, he wished to enter a protest against the nomination by that Committee of the Committee moved for by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire. At the same time, he admitted that the Committee of Selection were bound to acquiesce in any order the House might think fit to make. It had, however, generally been the custom that when any hon. Member applied for a Select Committee, the responsibility of nominating that Committee rested upon him, and he hoped the ordinary rule would not be departed from in the present instance. The Committee of Selection would do their best to act in accordance with the decision of the House, and there he should leave the matter.
  MR. NEWDEGATEwished to state why he deemed it his duty to press his Motion on the present occasion. Before he placed the Notice on the Votes, he consulted Members of the Government and other hon. Gentlemen, because, in 1854, the House was defeated in its intention to inquire into matters analogous to those specified in its Order of the 29th of March last by the use of its own forms, and in consequence of the delay caused by moving adjournments. The House had already pronounced its intention to inquire into conventual and monastic institutions by its Order of the 29th of March, and as the purport of that Order had been misunderstood, he would read it. It was as follows:—
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the existence, character, and increase of Conventual and Monastic Institutions or Societies in Great Britain, and into the terms upon which income, property, and estates belonging to

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  such Institutions or Societies, or to members thereof, are respectively received, held, or possessed."
  He regretted extremely to find that the intention of the majority of the House was threatened with defeat by the minority, who, he understood, intended to use the forms of the House on the present occasion for that purpose. Of that intention he was informed before he gave his Notice, and he thought it was his duty to frame his Motion, so that the intention of the majority of the House should, if possible, be carried out. This was one of the principal reasons which induced him to move that the Committee be nominated by the Committee of Selection. He felt bound, by the respect he entertained for the House, to guard against any repetition of the tactics resorted to in 1854, when the system of debating upon the name of each Member proposed by the nominator—and this in the most invidious manner—had been resorted to for the purposes of annoyance and delay. There had been a great deal of misunderstanding with respect to the intention of the Order of the 29th of March. By some persons it was represented that the House of Commons was about to send down Inspectors—God knows how appointed—to investigate the condition of each inmate of every convent and monastery in the country. A Notice was proposed to that effect last Session by the hon. Baronet the Member for Fifeshire (Sir Robert Anstruther); but he (Mr. Newdegate) immediately placed on the Paper an Amendment to the effect of the Order now adopted by the House, with a view of guarding against the danger of rashly proposing an invasion of these institutions without previous inquiry. He had seen with regret a declaration of the Roman Catholic laity, which proceeded on the assumption that the House was about to commit some monstrous outrage on some of Her Majesty's subjects. Considering the education and position of the persons who had signed the declaration, he was astonished that they should address, not to this House, but to the public, an expression of such a total want of confidence in the discretion, the character, and the intentions of the House as was manifested in that document. He must say there was an appearance of something like arrogance in the tone in which this declaration
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  was couched. For instance, the third paragraph commenced with the words—"We resent" the action of the House of Commons. The fourth paragraph began with "We repudiate;" the fifth with "We denounce," and the sixth with these words—
  "Lastly, we declare that this proposed inquiry will prove the beginning of a period of religious strife."
  And they went on to say—
  "It must and will be regarded as a declaration of war against the Catholics of the United Kingdom, and a renewal of the old bad days of persecution and of penal laws."
  He denied that the majority, who voted for the Committee, intended anything worthy of reproach, conveyed by the document he had read, and he lamented that any body of his fellow-countrymen should have been tempted to express opinions so disrespectful to the House of Commons. The Roman Catholic ladies had expressed themselves in terms of distrust which he should have thought their knowledge of Members of that House would have forbidden; evidence, however, had been given in the mode of procedure he had adopted, that there should be no want of care and consideration in the nomination of the Committee; he had advisedly resolved to secure the nomination of the Committee through the recognized organ of the House—its Standing Committee of Selection—in order that the House should not be liable to any imputation of precipitation or unfairness in the composition of the Select Committee which had been ordered. He could not forget that, during the Recess, he had been the object of continual libel. He had submitted the publication of one of the grossest of these libels to competent counsel, who had come to the conclusion that a gross breach of the privileges of the House had been committed in his person. He did not, however, propose to ask the House to notice the matter, otherwise than by appointing the Committee it had ordered, partly, he believed, on the faith of the statements which had been controverted in these libels; he urged the Hovse to carry out a decision highly appreciated by hundreds of thousands of the people of England. It was no Irish question, but an English and Scotch question, and he demanded that the decision of the House be immediately acted on in the name of those who had en-

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  trusted him with their Petitions, and in the name of his constituency, no mean portion of the community.
  MR. BRUCEsaid, he did not propose to discuss the point whether the method of nomination chosen by the hon. Member was the best; but he wished to correct an expression calculated to mislead the House when the hon. Member stated that he had chosen this mode of investigation after consultation with the Government. That the hon. Member had stated his intentions to himself and other Members of the Government was not improbable; but to the statement that anything like a consultation had occurred he entirely objected. He, however, wished to address himself to the question of Adjournment. This was the second time this important question had been brought before the House; on the first occasion it was brought forward at half-past 1 in the morning, and the debate was continued until about half-past 3. On the present occasion the question was brought forward at about 2, and it was now nearly half-past.
  MR. NEWDEGATEobserved, that it was brought forward at half-past 8 on the first occasion.
  MR. BRUCEreplied that he was strictly accurate in his statement; he did not refer to the Motion for the appointment of a Committee, but to the question of nominating the Committee; and he complained that it was unreasonable to bring forward such a question at 2 o'clock in the morning, when he himself had been in the House for 14 hours, and most hon. Members had been there for 10. The greatest interest was felt in the subject throughout the country; it was impossible to discuss it with moderation, as such a question should be discussed, when what little strength remained to them partook rather of feverish excitement than of vigour necessary for the calm and effective discussion of so important a subject. At the same time he was anxious, on the part of the Government, to show every desire for a fair consideration of the question. He therefore proposed that the debate should be now adjourned, and that the question should be put down on the Paper for Monday, to come on after the debate on the Irish Land Bill. [Laughter.] Hon. Members seemed amused at that proposal; but on what ground could they object to resume a
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  debate at 12 o'clock upon which they had not hesitated to enter at 2? The Government had little time at its disposal for dealing with questions which he ventured to think were of greater importance even than this, and in making the proposal he believed the Government would be deemed to have shown a conciliatory spirit.
  MR. BROMLEY-DAVENPORTsaid, he hoped his hon. Friend (Mr. Newde-gate) would accept the proposal of the light hon. Gentleman.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that a proposal to take up the matter at 12 on Monday night was hardly showing proper consideration to the importance of the subject. If the right hon. Gentleman would say 11 o'clock, the proposition would be more reasonable.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, the Government could hardly be aware of the great interest felt throughout the country upon the subject; and when its representatives talked of feverishness setting in at 2 o'clock, he would ask whether similar symptoms were not apparent at 12. It was extremely desirable that the religious excitement likely to grow with delay should be put an end to by a prompt decision. His impression was that the Government was beginning to dally with the question. The question should be discussed calmly and quietly; and he entreated the Government not to play with the question, for the feeling upon the subject was becoming a serious element in the case.
  MR. SCLATER - BOOTHsaid, the Home Secretary was much mistaken in assuming that the House was disposed to debate the original question at all. The question now before the House was, whether the Committee should be nominated by the hon. Member or by the Committee of Selection? Although the original question had been fully debated and decided upon, it was again and again brought forward upon this Motion.
  MR. SYNANdenied that the House had deliberately decided the original question, and said that in arriving at the decision in favour of an inquiry it was caught in a trap. There was a great wish, on the part of Roman Catholic Members, to debate the question fully, and expose the motives which actuated the Mover for inquiry.
  MR. J. G. TALBOTremarked that the Government appeared to be trifling

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  with the question. He and the hon. Member for North Warwickshire were ready to accede to any reasonable request, but they objected to the subject being delayed. There was no religious feeling in the matter, and he hoped the Government would name a reasonable hour for the resumption of the debate.
  LORD GARLIESsaid, that the House should be prepared to come to a vote on the Main Question at once.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, that a feeling had grown up in the country on this subject which, for the sake of peace, the sooner it was allayed the better. Language such as he never recollected to have heard or read, had been used towards that House on this occasion. He never before heard it said that a Committee of that House would insult persons in conducting an inquiry of any nature. He had never seen anything that would warrant such an assertion. He hoped the Government would sacrifice an hour, and let the House come to a decision without further adjournment. The longer this question was hung up the greater difficulty there would be in allaying the spirit that had been aroused by the language that had been used. It was very easy to rouse that feeling, but it was not so easy to allay it.
  SIR RAINALD KNIGHTLEYsaid, he hoped there would be a clear understanding that, if the debate was adjourned a Division should be come to on Monday night without any further factious opposition.
  SIR JOHN ESMONDEdeclined to be a party to any such arrangement.
  MR. M'CARTHY DOWNINGsaid, the feeling that had been raised in the country on this question was attributable to hon. Members opposite. It could be immediately allayed by withdrawing the Motion.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Pease.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 128; Noes 173: Majority 45.
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. H. A. HERBERTmoved the adjournment of the House.
  SIR HENRY HOAREseconded the Motion.
  MR. BROMLEY - DAVENPORTstrongly urged that the Motion of the hon. Gentleman might be proceeded with on Monday at a reasonable hour, considering the importance of the question.
  SIR JOHN ESMONDEsaid, he thought the Irish Land Bill a more important subject than this, and hoped that no time would be taken from the former for the latter.
  SIR JOHN HAYassured the Government that there would be a better prospect of Progress with the Irish Land Bill if they came to a reasonable arrangement for this debate.
  MR. BRUCEsaid, he had offered an hour, which would admit of a satisfactory discussion, on Monday night. Without fixing the hour now, the Government would be willing to facilitate the discussion as far as possible.
  VISCOUNT ROYSTONinferred, from the remarks of the Home Secretary, that the Government meant to do what they liked, because they had a sufficient majority at their back. Irritation was arising, and the Government ought to do all in their power to put an end to the excitement.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he wished to treat the Government with respect; but he must remind the Home Secretary that the demand for further discussion came from his own side of the House. His proposal was not for a measure but for an inquiry. There had been no excitement till the Roman Catholics themselves got it up. He asked the Government to name 11 o'clock on Monday night for the resumption of the debate.
  MR. MONKsaid, he thought that, in the absence of the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary had done everything to facilitate the discussion of the question. He hoped the hon. Member for North Warwickshire would accept the right hon. Gentleman's offer.
  SIR LAWRENCE PALKwished to know whether the majority of the House were to be defeated by the minority, aided by the Government? He hoped his hon. Friend (Mr. Newdegate) would not accept the offer of the Government.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, if the Prime Minister were not present, he might have been. The Easter Vacation he had spent with his constituency,

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  who believed that the resistance offered to a fair inquiry was inspired by fear of the consequences. The other side, by carrying the Irish Church Bill, had raised a Frankenstein they would not easily lay.
  MR. MATTHEWSsaid, the last remark made it appear that this Motion was pushed as an act of vengeance for what was done last year. He appealed to the hon. Gentleman who had brought forward that Motion, and who must feel that this was a matter of the deepest interest to millions of his fellow-countrymen, to say whether he did not think that every Roman Catholic in that House ought to have the opportunity of expressing his opinion upon the proposal for the appointment of a Committee.
  MR. AGAR-ELLISappealed to the Government to give way.
  MR. WHALLEYcharged the Government with suppressing the discussion of this question out-of-doors.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHappealed to the Home Secretary, on the part of the Government, to give ample time for discussion on Monday night, and not to countenance Motions for Adjournment, but to secure a Division on the Main Question on Monday. He would also appeal to the hon. Member for North Warwickshire to withdraw the Motion for Adjournment.
  MR. BRUCEsaid, of course, when the Government were going out of their way to afford time for the discussion of this question, they could not encourage Motions for Adjournment, but would do their best to secure a decision on the Main Question on Monday night.
  MR. NEWDEGATE, on that understanding, consented to the adjournment of the debate, and gave notice that he would move that the debate should be resumed at half-past 11 o'clock on Monday night.
  Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn,"—(Mr. Herbert,)—put, and negatived.
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  Debate arising.
  Debate adjourned till Monday next.

  SALE OF LIQUORS BILL.
  Acts considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That the Chairman be directed to move the House, that leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable owners and occupiers of property in certain districts to prevent the common Sale of Intoxicating Liquors within such districts.
  Resolution reported;—Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir WILFRID LAWSON, Sir THOMAS BAZLEY, Lord CLAUD HAMILTON, Sir JOHN HANMER, Mr. MILLER, Mr. DALWAY, and Mr. MACARTHY DOWNING.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 112.]
  House adjourned at a quarter past Three o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—Second Reading—Oyster and Mussel Fisheries Supplemental* (62).
NEW PEER.
George Carr Glyn, esquire, having been created Baron Wolverton of Wolverton in the county of Buckingham—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

GREECE—CAPTURE AND MURDER OF BRITISH SUBJECTS.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, in laying on the Table the correspondence and telegrams relating to the recent unfortunate occurrence in Greece, I may say that I have considered it my duty to keep the public and Parliament as perfectly and correctly informed as I could on the subject. Your Lordships are probably familiar with the correspondence, which has appeared in the newspapers, and which has been laid before the other House, but which could not be laid before your Lordships, because you were not sitting. Yesterday morning I received another important despatch from Mr. Erskine, dated some days before the massacre, throwing considerable light upon these transactions. I immediately sent to Mr. Erskine a telegram containing the answer that I thought it called for, and I embodied the substance of that telegram in a written despatch which was laid before the House of Commons last night. I therefore hope that it will be considered that there has been no delay on my part in giving the public all the information which I possess. In addition to the despatch I wrote yesterday to Mr. Erskine, I sent another to Mr. Barron, our Chargé d'Affaires at Constantinople, asking him to apply to the Porte for their zealous co-operation in arresting any of the brigands who might escape across the frontier and take refuge in Turkish territory. I have this morning received an answer from Mr. Barron, stating that orders have been sent by telegraph to Janina, Tricala, and to the military commanders at the different forts to arrest any of these wretches that may be found in the Turkish territory, and to deliver them up to the Greek authorities. Within the last half-hour I have received from Mr. Erskine a telegram, which I wish to read to your Lordships. It is dated this morning, and is as follows:—

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"I have sent a list of the brigands still at large to Mr. Barron. Upwards of 500 troops are in pursuit, and no exertion will be spared to capture and bring them to justice. The heads of seven killed have been publicly exposed, and five others are about to be examined. If convicted, they will be executed immediately."
My Lords, there is one point connected with this unfortunate incident on which some explanation is due to the public, and is required for my own justification. I mean with reference to the offer which was made to convey the brigands away from Greece to a place of safety. "Offer" is not the proper term; for it was a compliance with a suggestion sent by Mr. Erstine, with the assent or by the desire of the Greek Government—namely, that those brigands should be conveyed away in safety, because the amnesty on which they insisted was impossible. On the day following that on which I received the telegram from Mr. Erskine, the Greek Minister in London called on me and made the same request, saying that the Greek Government would shut their eyes to the conveyance of the brigands from Greece; but that it would he impossible to give the amnesty they insisted on, because such a step would violate the Constitution. I think your Lordships will sympathize with me in the position in which I was placed. I assure you that I was fully sensible of what I may call the humiliation and indignity of consenting to convey away these brigands in safety; but, on the other hand, the lives of their unfortunate captives were in jeopardy. And, when I came to consider what the motives of the brigands were, I could, not help seeing that their plunder and the ransom they demanded would be comparatively useless to them unless they could escape. I could therefore well understand why they insisted upon their safety being assured; and I saw, that if an answer was delayed, they would probably murder one or two of their captives as a proof of their earnestness. I was alone in London—I could consult none of my Colleagues, who were all absent—I felt that the delay of even one hour might be fatal to the prisoners. I therefore did not hesitate to take upon myself the responsibility of the step. I know that my Colleagues will generously share that responsibility with me; but I wish it to be understood that the course which I took had its origin in the peculiar circumstances of the case, and that I am alone primarily responsible. If I
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did wrong, I think that the urgent and peculiar circumstances of the case may be pleaded as my excuse; but I also hope to be excused in reference to the general horror and indignation which this crime has provoked. Whether I was right or wrong, I certainly do not regret the step I took. When I consider that the lives of our countrymen were at stake, and when I bear in mind the grief and anxiety of their afflicted relatives, I should never have forgiven myself if the blame for what has happened had, in ever so slight and indirect a manner, been attributable to my want of courage in shrinking from the responsibility of the course I pursued.
The noble Earl then presented (by command) Correspondence (Parts I. and II., 1870) respecting the capture and murder by brigands of British and Italian Subjects in Greece.
THE EARL OF CARNARVON: My Lords, it costs me a great deal to address your Lordships; but I feel that it is only right that I should endeavour to give expression to two things. First of all I wish to tender in public, as I have already done in private, to my noble Friend my most heartfelt thanks for the efforts that he made—alas in vain,—to avert this dreadful occurrence. If I may go further, I would venture to express my deepest thanks to Mr. Hammond, who, during part of my noble Friend's enforced absence from the Foreign Office, has in some measure conducted the duties of it. Nothing will ever make me forget the kindness, the delicate consideration, and thoughtfulness that he showed in every single detail. As regards the Greek Government, it is not my place to speak. I cannot, indeed, feeling deeply as I do, regard them as otherwise than gravely responsible for this most cruel crime. With the facts as far as they are known to me I cannot but feel that these lives have been sacrificed either to criminal mismanagement or to some low party intrigue; but, on the other hand, though they did not in their acts show mercy to us, I wish to deal justly by them. I cannot suspend my judgment; but I wish to suspend, at all events, the formal expression of that judgment until the whole case in all its bearings is laid before Parliament. I trust Parliament will not then hesitate in the clearest language, and in the most unequivocal manner, to pronounce

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its judgment, whatever it may be, on this most horrible and atrocious act; and I would venture to entreat Parliament and the country, in thus suspending their judgment, not to allow the delay to dull in any degree the keenness of their present feeling, or induce them to abate one jot or tittle of the punishment which must be exacted when the hour of reckoning comes.
House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.