Sitting of 28 May 1869

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Oxford University Statutes* [136]; Companies Clauses Act (1863) Amendment* [138]; Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation (No. 2)* [137.]
First Reading—Insolvent Debtors and Bankruptcy Repeal* [134].
Second Reading—Metropolitan Poor Act (1867) Amendment [53], debate adjourned.
Committee—Election Commissioners (Expenses)* [109]—R.P.
Committee—Report—Irish Church (re-comm.) [123]; County Coroners* [75–135].
Considered as amended—Irish Church (re-comm.) [123].
Third Reading—Evidence Amendment* [25] and passed.

CANADA—INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SINCLAIR AYTOUNsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the Governor General of Canada has approved the Report of a Committee of the Privy Council of Canada, advising the adoption of the recommendation of the Finance Minister of the Canadian Dominion that money raised under the Imperial Guarantee for the construct ion of the Intercolonial Railway should be applied to the payment of the general debts of the Canadian Dominion; whether such ap-
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  plication of the money raised under such Guarantee is not in contravention of the Canada Railway Loan Act, 1867; whether any Correspondence has taken place between the Colonial Office and the Governor General on this subject; and, if so, whether he has any objection to lay Copies of such Correspondence upon the Table of the House; and, why no Statement and Account has been laid before this House, in accordance with the fourth Section of the Canada Railway Loan Act, 1867?
  MR. MONSELLsaid, in reply, that there had been no correspondence such as that alluded to by his hon. Friend between the Colonial Office and the Governor General of Canada; but somewhere about three weeks ago several Parliamentary Papers had been brought over from Canada by Mr. Rose, one of the Ministers of Canada, to the Colonial Office. Among those papers was one entitled "Correspondence respecting the Intercolonial Railway." It appeared that the Governor General of Canada, on the 27th of August last, approved a Report which recommended that certain floating debts bearing a high rate of interest should be paid off by the issue of interest bearing securities, in which a part of the colonial loan was to be invested. In order to secure that the proceeds of the loan should be available when waiting for the Railway, it was arranged that two credits, one with the Messrs. Baring and Glyn for £250,000, and the other with the Bank of Montreal for £500,000, should be appropriated to that special purpose, and that Exchequer Bills of the Dominion, receivable in payment of taxes, should be placed in the hands of the Receiver General as trustee for the Intercolonial Fund, which Exchequer Bills were not to be used by him till required for that object. The hon. Gentleman next asked whether such application of money so raised was not in contravention of the Canada Railway Loan Act. Now, that Act sanctioned the raising of £3,000,000 for the purpose of constructing the railway, but said nothing about the employment of the money in the interval between the receipt and. its application, and, as far as he could form an opinion, there was nothing absolutely illegal in what had been done by the Canadian Government. But whether the course they pursued was in accordance with the spirit of the transaction in

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  which they were engaged was another matter altogether, and one which was at present occupying the serious attention of Her Majesty's Government. In reply to the last question of the hon. Gentleman he had to state that, although various steps had been taken in respect of the loan with the approbation of the Treasury in the mouths of June and July last, still the absolute sanction of the Imperial Government had not been formally given till the beginning of the present year, the Session of Parliament having previously commenced. The consequence was that it was not considered that any statement of accounts in accordance with the 4th section of the Act should be laid before Parliament; but if the hon. Gentleman should think fit to move for a statement regarding the whole of the proceedings there could be no objection on the part of the Government to its production.

NAVY—COAL FOR THE NAVY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SINCLAIR AYTOUNsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether the List of Collieries from which alone Coal was supplied for the use of the Navy has been discontinued; and, if so, whether Collieries already on this List are now placed on a footing of perfect equality with all other Collieries in competing for Tenders for supplying Coal for the use of the Navy?
  MR. BAXTER: Sir, there is now no official list of collieries from which exclusively the Admiralty make purchases. They are buying the description of coal most suitable for their purpose both in South Wales and the North of England, and they mean to send their inspecting officer to North Wales, the midland counties of England, and the South of Scotland with the view of ascertaining what coals in these districts may also be available for the naval service. With reference to the second Question, my hon. Friend will see that the former distinction is at an end.

COUNTY FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. READsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department, Upon what calculation he founded the statement he made on intro-
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  ducing his Bill on County Financial Arrangements, that under the proposed Bill the number of Representative Ratepayers in Quarter Sessions would be only "one to five" of the County Magistrates?
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSENsaid, in reply, that on the 2nd of March he moved for a Return of the number of parishes in each Poor Law union in England and Wales. Applying the Schedule of the Bill to that Return, he was enabled to state with tolerable accuracy the number of elective members which would be sent to the Financial Board in each county. He had next ascertained from the clerks of the peace of each county the number of magistrates on the roll. The result appeared to be that there would be one elected member to every five magistrates on the roll; but he had not meant to convey to the House that such would be the proportion actually on the Board. If, for instance, there were 250 magistrates on the roll, it would not at all follow that anything like that number would attend at the Sessions. There were deductions to be made for absence on account of non-residence, age, and such other causes, and he was afraid he must add on account of want of inclination; and, after those deductions, it would probably be found that the average attendance at sessions was not more than fifty at the outside. If there were 250 magistrates on the roll, and only fifty elected guardians, the proportion of course would be one in five. But whilst the usual attendance of magistrates was not more than from forty to sixty; of the fifty elected rate-payers the great majority might fairly be expected to attend. The result would be that either the elected members could exercise a very considerable power in the County Financial Boards, or else the magistrates, to prevent a dominant power, would be stimulated to attend in far greater numbers. In cither case, he did not think the result would be objectionable.

  SUPPLY.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

CASE OF "LAVELLE V. PROUDFOOT."

  QUESTION.
  MR. CHARLEYsaid, he rose to call the attention of the House to the case, of Lavelle v. Proudfoot, tried before Mr. Justice Fitzgerald at the late Gal-way Spring Assizes, and to ask Questions of the First Lord of the Treasury in relation thereto. He had taken up the subject, not in a spirit of bigotry, but solely through a painful sense of duty. If the Irish Church Bill became law the Protestant clergy would be withdrawn from the remote districts of Ireland, and with them would be withdrawn that public opinion which their presence helped to maintain at the present, while the Roman Catholic priests would be left altogether uncontrolled. It was in the interest of the Roman Catholic portion of the population he ventured to bring this matter forward. All the parties who had suffered from the acts of violence to which he would have to refer were Roman Catholics. It was also remarkable that the Judge who tried the case—Mr. Justice Fitzgerald— was an eminent Roman Catholic, while most of the counsel engaged on both sides were also Roman Catholics. The action was one for libel brought by the celebrated Father Lavelle against Mr. Proudfoot, the agent of the Building and Land Investment Company. As agent of that company, Mr. Proudfoot had been engaged in what was called "striping" land on the Port Royal estate in the parish of Partly, of which Father Lavelle was parish priest. It-was very customary in Ireland for persons to have a right to a cow's grass in one place and a right to a-half or a-quarter cow's grass in another place. This was what was called holding in "rundle," and he believed it led to much inconvenience. In order to do away with that system it was necessary for owners of estates to "stripe" the land—that was, to get the tenants to give up that right with the view of having the land divided into square farms. The tenants in Ireland generally objected to the process of "striping" the land, and in this particular case Father Lavelle took up the cudgels for the tenantry. He addressed several letters to the local papers reflecting on Mr. Proudfoot, who replied in a letter to
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  the Mayo Constitution. In that letter were two allegations, to which he would call the attention of the House. First, the letter stated that a poor woman, named Catherine Henahan, had been severely beaten by the collector of dues for Father Lavelle. Next it stated that a number of the parishioners of Father Lavelle had been expelled from the chapel of Partly because they had given up their land. These were the grounds of libel in the action tried at the Galway Assizes. The jury found for the plaintiff, and assessed the damages at one farthing. With reference to the first allegation that failed, because it appeared on the trial that the person who committed the assault was agent, not for Father Lavelle, but for his curate, Father Mullarkey. There could be no doubt, however, that there had been committed on the poor woman what Mr. Justice Fitzgerald had termed an "outrageous" assault. It appeared that she was reaping her oats, in a field, when the collector of dues for the Roman Catholic curate commenced carrying off a portion of the crop. The poor woman endeavoured to prevent him from doing so, whereupon he turned on her, knocked her down, knelt upon her, and severely cut and bruised her face. She afterwards obtained a summons against the ruffian, but, at the instance of Father Mullarkey, she consented to withdraw it. It appeared that the custom of levying these dues had existed in this diocese—that of Archbishop M'Hale—during the past half century, and evidence was adduced to show that these oats formed part of the perquisites of the Roman Catholic curate. Now, in the course of the debates on the Irish Church, the House had frequently been told that the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland existed entirely upon the voluntary system, and he should be glad to learn from the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government whether he considered this custom to be a part of the voluntary system. It would certainly seem strange if any Baptist minister had a customary privilege of seizing his pewholder's oats. The second allegation was that people had been turned out of the chapel for the offence of giving up their farms for the purpose of being "striped." But it was sworn that this was not the reason, and that the real cause was that the people so turned out had sent their

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  children to the National School, the teachers at which had been trained at the Model Schools in Dublin subsequent to 1862. About twenty persons were so expelled, and of these one was Sergeant Coneys of the police. At the time of his expulsion he was kneeling in front of the altar, when Father Lavelie took out his watch and told him he would give him five minutes, without saying what for. Sergeant Coneys' wife came and told him not to enrage the priest, and that he had better go out quietly. This he accordingly did with his wife and family, and Father Lavelie followed them into the chapel-yard, and insisted upon their going into the public road, and on their going out of the chapel-yard the gate was slammed after them. Father Mullarkey swore in his evidence that the last sacrament of the Church—extreme unction—was refused to one man, John Henehan. because he permitted his grandchildren to go to the National School, and in excuse for this it was urged that the man was violating the laws of the Church, inasmuch as in 1862 resolutions were passed in Dublin condemning the Model Schools. Mr. Justice Fitzgerald expressed himself very strongly upon the conduct of Father Lavelle and Father Mullarkey, and after referring to what had occurred in the ease of Sergeant Coneys, said that he had never heard of such a transaction, and trusted that he never might again. The learned Judge, too, stated, that though he knew nothing about the canonical law, the course pursued in the expulsion of the sergeant was contrary to common law. Considering that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government was desirous of conciliating the Church of Rome, that he looked upon education as one of the three heads of the was tree of Protestant ascendancy in Ireland, and considering the animosity exhibited towards the National School system by the leading dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, and more especially by Dr. M'Hale, he would ask whether the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to do away with that system, and hand over the education of the people to the priests, substituting a denominational system; and whether he was prepared, in case the Irish Church Bill became law, which it probably would do so far as that House was concerned on Monday next, to take
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  measures to protect peaceful Roman Catholic subjects of Her Majesty in Ireland from the possible recurrence of such acts of violence as those which occurred in the case of "Lavelle v. Proudfoot?"
  MR. G. H. MOOREsaid, it was evident, when the hon. Gentleman placed his Motion upon the Paper, that it was merely the pretext for such a statement ns the one to which the House had just listened; and it was also manifest that the plea of defending the liberties of the Irish people was merely a pretence equally shallow and sinister for making an attack upon a body of men, who, above all others, had done their best to protect those liberties from the assaults of sectarian animosity, and from attempts which had been made to trample them under foot. What were the real facts? A trial had been held in Ireland before the legitimate tribunal of the country; and a verdict in due form and in accordance with the evidence had been returned, and yet an hon. Member thought it necessary to call upon the House to review the case, and upon his own ex parte statement to call upon the First Minister of the Crown to interfere in the matter. The charges were, in the first place, directed against Mr. Lavelle, the parish priest of Partry, in Mayo; against Mr. Mullarkey, the curate; and against a country boy, whom the hon. Member had somewhat fantastically described as a collector of dues. He (Mr. G. H. Moore) believed that there did not exist a man more conscientious, earnest, or high-minded, than Mr. Lavelie, who was one of his constituents, and whose friendship he was proud to acknowledge. The charges made against the rev. gentleman were that, in the discharge of his duties as parish priest, he had expelled from the chapel and deprived of their religious rites a number of persons who had persisted in sending their children to a school where he believed their faith was in danger of being undermined. Now, he (Mr. G. H. Moore) was willing to acknowledge that Sir Robert Blosse, who had set up this school in Party, had no desire to tamper with the religion of the children who came there for instruction; but, in excuse for the conduct of Mr. Lavelle, it should be remembered that that rev. gentleman had had before this to combat a system of proselytism, the most remorseless and unscrupulous that had for cen-

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  turies been known in any country, and which had been carried out by the late Lord Plunket, the uncle of Sir Robert Blosse, and by the Protestant Bishop of Tuam. Against that system of proselytism, Father Lavelle waged an honourable crusade for many years, and he gradually won back the souls of his parishioners from the power of the tempter and the tyrant. It was not to be wondered at that the rev. gentleman, seeing the same powers assumed that were exercised before, should meet the enemy on the threshold and attempt to grapple with him before he had power to do any harm. Very likely it might-be that Father Lavelle had not the power to exclude these people from his chapel; if, nevertheless, a certain number of his parishioners chose to obey his orders and leave it, neither Mr. Justice Fitzgerald nor the hon. Gentleman would hold that there was any power in law to compel them to remain. As their representative and neighbour, and knowing every one of them, he could assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that Father Lavelle and his parishioners understood each oilier perfectly well, and did not require his interference; and these men, about whose liberties he was so solicitous, would be minded to take considerable liberties with him if they heard him say a single word against Father Lavelle within any reasonable distance of Partry.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I do not know how far it is fitting for me to interfere in this question. I must frankly own I do not quite understand the force and cogency of the reasons which induced the hon. and learned Gentlemen opposite (Mr. Charley) to bring a matter of this nature under the notice of the House. Had there been any case in Ireland in which there had been a notable failure of justice, or in which the law had proved insufficient for its purpose, it might have been expedient to call attention to it; but here there is nothing of the kind. The hon. and learned Gentleman does not complain of the manner in which the law has been administered, and he has not shown that it is inadequate; for its purpose. I am very sorry that the hon. and learned Gentleman thinks fit to connect a discussion of this kind with the Bill for the disestablishment of the Irish Church, because the introduction of a topic of
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  this sort does nothing but darken the ease with prejudice and feeling, and tends to disturb that perfectly dispassionate frame of mind in which we ought to accustom, and, if necessary, compel ourselves to look at any question which purports to be a question regarding the administration of the law, or respecting acts said to be done against the law by a particular person. The Questions of the hon. and learned Gentleman are Questions he is entitled to put to me, and I will not at all decline to answer them on account of the circumstance that he has chosen to hang them upon a peg which appeal's to me not very appropriate for the purpose. He wishes to know whether it is the intention of the Government to do away with the National School system in Ireland, and he founds that Question upon the assumption that the desire of the Government is to conciliate the Church of Rome. Sir, I must beg to say the Government have no desire whatever to conciliate the Church of Rome. What the Government desire is that the Church of Rome, and every other Church in Ireland, should have justice, and neither more nor less than justice. Our desire for conciliation with the Church of Rome goes precisely to the same point as our desire for conciliation with everybody else: we desire to do all that is in our power to secure their rights, and prevent them so exercising or abusing their rights as to interfere with the rights of other people. But it is not the intention of the Government to do away with the National School system. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman should suppose there could be any such intention on the part of a Government which consists almost entirely of Gentlemen who, if they have been distinguished in anything with respect to education in Ireland, have been distinguished rather for the favour with which they have regarded the National School system and their desire to defend it against attack in the days of its infancy and debility than for any hostility to it, either open or concealed. The Government, then, have no desire to do away, or intention to do away, with the National School system in Ireland. Of course, it is their duty to consider from time to time the details of that system, with a view to remedy defects which may be discovered or may have crept into it in the lapse of

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  time; that liberty they claim and exercise in their discretion, but with respect to the system itself they have no intention to do away with it, and I may say that they are generally of opinion, on a review of the thirty-seven or thirty-eight years that that system has been in operation, that it has been the means of conferring great blessings and benefits upon Ireland. With respect to the second Question of the hon. and learned Member, whether the Government intend to adopt measures for protecting the subjects of the Crown from acts of violence. I am bound to say I am not aware that there arises out of this case any necessity special in its nature for the adoption of any new measures for the protection of the subject. It was declared by Mr. Justice Fitzgerald that the turning out of the police officer and his family from the chapel was contrary to the law of the land, and the hon. Gentleman asks me whether I consider it is a voluntary system under which acts of this kind are done. If the act of Father Lavelle was contrary to the law of the land—which no doubt I must take it to be, inasmuch as it has been so declared by a learned and distinguished and most excellent Judge—it was in the power of the party aggrieved to appeal to the law of the land. The time for the hon. Gentleman to have asked the Government whether they intended to bring in any new measures for the protection of the subject would be, not when this party had chosen to forego his right of appeal to the law of the land, but when he had made an appeal, and had either failed through the weakness of the law, or had been subject to detriment in his person or property in consequence of his having made that appeal. I think, therefore, that the Question of the hon. and learned Gentleman, perfectly proper as it may be in itself, does not grow by any natural process out of the circumstances with which we are concerned. With regard to the voluntary system, I would only make this observation: if we view the matter with the strict eye of philosophy we may undoubtedly say that all undue influence whatever is pro tanto a deviation from the voluntary system. There are many forms in which undue influence is exercised in all spheres and circumstances of life. There are many forms in which external influence is brought to bear
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  upon the conduct and action of a man to induce him to deviate, without any obligation so to do, through fear or favour, from what he may think the strict line of duty or of right. But, still, these are matters into which we cannot inquire. When we speak of the voluntary system in matters of religion we mean a system which does not appeal to the law for its support, but which, whether it depend upon due or undue influence, depends upon an influence to which the parties who are the objects of it submit voluntarily, and not under coercion. That is the meaning of the voluntary system; and if we apply the term to those systems in which nothing is done but precisely what is right, and just, and wise, that certainly will be so narrow a construction of it that I very much doubt whether, according to it, there is a voluntary system upon earth. I am much obliged to the hon. and learned Member for furnishing me with the materials of the statement he made, and I should be glad if I could return him the compliment—which I cannot—of saying that there was in the circumstances of this case any necessity for its being brought before the House of Commons. Of course, we know that in the condition of Ireland, where great heat and animosity prevail, many words will be spoken and many acts will be done, perhaps, by men of warm and zealous temperaments which even they themselves, in their cooler moments, and which, at any rate, the dispassionate judgment of society will regret. These are not to be viewed in this House without some consideration of what may be called extenuating circumstances, growing out of a morbid state of feeling in society, the result of evil traditions inherited from the past. What we have to ask is whether the law works, whether the officers of the law do their duty, and whether the ends of the law are attained; and it does not appear to me that in this case the hon. and learned Gentleman has affirmed the negative of any one of these propositions.

PATENTS FOR INVENTIONS.

  RESOLUTION.
  MR. MACFIEsaid, he believed the subject of the abolition of Patent Law had never been discussed in Parliament; it would, therefore, not be improper to

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  devote some considerable portion of time to its introduction, but he proposed only to lay a general view of the subject before the House. In the first place, he asserted that legislation upon this subject should be based upon two principles—first, that the interests of inventors should not be considered before the interests of the nation at large; and, second, that there could be no property in ideas. The grant of a patent had always been a Royal favour, and no inventor could claim as a right the exclusive privilege of manufacturing or selling any novel production he might have invented. An invention differed altogether from the literary work of an author, which he (Mr. Macfie) would continue to protect. The manufacturers of this country were generally opposed to patents which enabled a man for fourteen years to prevent the whole country from using any improvements which he had found out. The days of protection had passed. The protection which manufacturers now claimed was protection from evil laws, in particular from the grievous injustices which the Law of Patent-right inflicted upon them. When the patent system was introduced, 250 years ago, trade in England was in a very much less developed state than that in which we now found it. The statute then passed declared that no patent should be granted so as to cause general inconvenience. The House of Commons that passed that statute was strongly opposed to monopolies. There is proof that they regarded as causing inconvenience any invention that would diminish manual work. It was said that if this idea had been acted on in construing the statute, every patent for an invention would have been set aside. It was much to be regretted that their idea had not been acted on. The courts had shown a great disposition to make the words of the statute elastic, and the result was that there was a deluge of patents. Innumerable evils had arisen from the courts giving other than a literal interpretation to the terms of the statute. If the letter of the Act had been adhered to, he should not have any objection to a patent system; but the present system differed toto cŒlo from that which our forefathers introduced and thought tolerable. He could adduce abundant evidence to prove that patents interfered very seriously and in-
  890
  juriously with trade, whereas, one of the conditions on which a patent was originally granted was that it should have no such effect. If manufacturers made the most trivial improvement in their manufactures, they were threatened by the owner of this patent and that patent that they were infringing their patent rights; so that the result of the Patent Law was to cripple manufactures. He would refer hon. Members to the evidence taken before a Committee of the House that inquired into the subject of the Patent Laws, to the evidence taken before a Committee of the House of Lords, and to the evidence taken before the Royal Commission. In the days of Sir Robert Peel, in 1829, the multiplication of patents was foreseen to be a great evil. In 1851, the Manchester Chamber of Commerce looked forward with fear to the multiplication of patents. He held in his hand a paper which showed how many wrongs were inflicted by the present system on manufacturers, patentees, and inventors who were not patentees. One particular law plea in connection with the defence of a patent cost the parties £100,000. The Royal Commission on the subject was appointed in 1863, and their Report was issued in 1864. Many eminent men were examined, and the result was that, though, as he believed, the bulk of the Commissioners entered on the inquiry in the belief that the system could be remodelled so as to be made defensible, they ended by arriving at a very different conclusion. The Report stated that the majority of the witnesses had decidedly affirmed the existence of practical inconvenience from the multiplicity of patents; and the Commissioners called special attention to the testimony given by the First Lord of the Admiralty and the various witnesses on behalf of the War Department, showing the embarrassment caused to the naval and military services by the multitude of patents taken out for inventions in use in those Departments. He believed the noble Chairman of that Commission (Lord Stanley) had said that, before legislating on the subject the first duty of the House was to in-quire into the policy of patents. But though five or six years had elapsed since that time nothing had been done, and he believed the best course for the House to take was either to adopt his Motion simpliciter, or to call upon the

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  Government to issue a Royal Commission, so that the wishes of the country might receive attention. There would then be an opportunity of examining some of the working men of the country, who had complained that none of their class had been called as witnesses before the Committees, or the Royal Commission. From a Return lately published on his Motion, he would take a few widely separated years to show the increased number granted annually. While in 1650, the number of patents granted was 0, fifty years later it was 2; fifty years afterwards, 7; in another fifty years, 96; and it went on until, in 1825, it was 250, and in 1867, 2,292. Ireland, too, was a great sufferer by the present system, for whereas in 1800 there were only two patents in that country, now there were 2,292. That was one of the evils of the Union which he trusted that House would speedily redress. He hoped that the Reformed Parliament would speedily remedy that state of things. Almost the entire body of opinion formed on the consideration of the question was adverse to the continuance of these laws. This included the Chairman of the Lords' Commit-tee of 1851, Earl Granville, and Lord Campbell; also Members of their own House, including Sir James Graham and the late Mr. Cobden; in France, Monsieur Michel Chevalier; and he (Mr. Macfie) was present at the meeting of German economists at Dresden in 1862, which almost unanimously came to the conclusion that Patent Laws ought to be abolished. The most eminent engineers and manufacturers had arrived at the same conclusion. Then came the question were they simply to abolish patents, or to adopt the idea of Mr. John Stuart Mill, that, if abolished, rewards should be given to inventors. M. Chevalier had given his verdict in favour of pecuniary rewards. The sugar refiners many years ago petitioned Parliament for the abolition of patents, and that inventions of merit should be rewarded by the State. There was this in favour of that view, that it was the State not the manufacturer who calls for patents and gains by inventions. Patents interfere with export trade. The improvements in iron of Mr. Bessemer, for example, though doubt-less of importance, had had the effect of imposing a royalty of from £1 to £3 per ton. He (Mr. Macfie) had him-
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  self prepared a scheme for rewarding inventors of merit, but he would not now trouble the House with it. He should only ask the House, and he did so in the interests of the working classes, as well as of manufacturers, to determine that what had been created by the statute law and by the erroneous administration of that law should be cleared away, and free scope given to manufactures and trade. In conclusion, he begged to move the Resolution of which he had given notice.
  SIR ROUNDELL PALMER, in seconding the Motion, said, he had long felt convinced that this subject was one of great and growing importance, which it would be necessary at an early period to bring under the attention of the House. He rejoiced that the work had been undertaken by a practical man like the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. Macfie), who could speak upon it, not under the influence of any of the partial views which possibly those who looked at it from a lawyer's point of view might be thought by some to entertain, whether they were in favour of or against patents. He was glad to find that practical men like his hon. Friend had arrived at conclusions which, in their broad principles, were substantially the same as those to which many Members of the legal profession who had had a good deal of opportunity of observing that matter had, in common with himself (Sir Roundell Palmer), come. He was bound to state that he thought the time had arrived rather for opening than for concluding the discussion of that subject. And, therefore, he hoped he should not he thought to do anything inconsistent with the duly he had undertaken in seconding his hon. Friend's Motion, when he said at once that, for his own part, he was inclined to go to the root of the matter and abolish patents altogether, and not attempt to substitute even such a system—although it might probably be preferable in many respects to the present system—of rewards as his hon. Friend had mentioned. Of course those who derived benefit—whether they were the public or were private individuals—from the discoveries which might be made if patents ceased to exist, might always take into consideration the value they received, and pay for that benefit, as he believed the Government now did, although it was not bound by patents,

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  with, respect to improvements which were useful to the public service. But that, he conceived, would be a very different thing from an organized system of rewards at all analogous to the present system of patents. He might mention, in passing, a third plan, which had found very able and authoritative advocates, and which he should also greatly prefer to the present system, although he thought total abolition would be better than that likewise. He referred to the plan of putting an end to the notion that every person who invented anything had a right to a patent, and recurring to what, he imagined, was originally the principle intended—namely, the giving of patents as a matter of grace and favour in well-selected and discriminated cases, in the exercise of a discretion by an authority entrusted with that discretion. But, as he had already said, he confessed that he himself was not for half-measures in that matter. He thought they had a right, as the Motion proposed, to say that at the period of progress in the history of the arts and of trade in this country at which they had arrived, they could do much better without these props. He called them props because he thought they were meant to be so; but he believed that, at present, they were nothing but obstructions and hindrances to trade and the arts. Let him, in the first place, notice the principle on which the Patent Law was generally supported. Some persons imagined that there was a sort of either moral or natural right in inventors to some such protection as was given by patents, and the principle was sometimes expressed in this way—that a man had a right to the fruit of his brain. Now, he held that invention and discovery were essentially unlike copyright. Copyright applied to a creation. A man wrote a book; he thus brought into existence something which had no existence in the nature of things before. The rest of the world were not in the race with him to write that particular book. When written, there was no difficulty in identifying it, and distinguishing it from all other books which had preceded, or which might come after it: it stood in no other author's way. But in the case of inventions and discoveries, the facts with which they were concerned lay in nature itself, and all mankind who were engaged in pursuits which gave them
  894
  an interest in the investigation for practical purposes of the laws of nature had an equal right of access to the knowledge and the practical application of those laws, and might be equally in the track for obtaining it. All who were engaged in particular arts and manufactures were actually upon the track which led to the discovery of those results of natural laws, which were adapted to supply the wants and exigencies of those arts and manufactures; and the means of arriving at the knowledge of them was the common stock and property of all mankind who wore equally in pursuit of it. He could not allow that the man who was first in the race of discovery could of right claim for fourteen years or any other term an exclusive property in a portion of the common stock of knowledge which was accessible to all who used the proper means of discovering it. It was a thing not reasonable in the abstract, and if justifiable at all it must be on considerations of public advantage and expediency, that the man who made the first discovery of a law of nature, or of the right mode of applying it, should have an exclusive right to apply that discovery for a certain period. It was said that patents were useful to the public either as stimulating invention or as insuring the publication of useful discoveries; and he did not venture to say that the time might not have been when they answered both those purposes. Bounties and premiums might be adapted to a rude state of the arts and an early stage in the progress of commerce; but, when a nation had reached so high a degree of progress in all ingenious arts and discoveries and in trade and commerce as we had, he thought that in this department as well as in others, the system of bounties and premiums was much more likely to be mischievous than useful. But of course one could not demonstrate that point by resting merely on an abstract proposition, and therefore he would ask the House to look at two or three things which it seemed to him would put the matter in a strong practical light. Patents might be divided into those which might be popularly called meritorious, and those which were not meritorious. The former class were certainly not one in a hundred of the total number of patents, and the latter class were very numerous in every year. How, then,

  895
  did the system work as regarded meritorious patents? He supposed it would be admitted that among the most meritorious discoveries of recent times were the steam engine, the electric telegraph, and the screw propeller for ships. These cases furnished excellent illustrations of the way in which the patent system worked. There were whole families of patents connected with all three. Take the electric telegraph. According to the evidence of a scientific witness, it was not possible, oven for those who best understood the matter, to say who was entitled to the merit of that invention, so gradual and imperceptible was the natural growth and progress of knowledge and discovery with reference to it. But about 400 or 500 patents had been taken out as marking different steps in the investigation of that subject. As to the screw propeller, he had seen a book which represented the collected patents of one company as being ninety or 100; and he understood that the case was very much the same in regard to the steam engine. They were not dealing, in the ease of the most meritorious inventions, with a true discovery by a single inventor, but with an important branch of practical knowledge at which many men were working at the same time, and in regard to which each step attained indicated the next step that was to follow, and many persons together were on the road. Well, but if they were on the road the public would get the benefit of the discovery, and the question was whether, by enabling each person on the road to stop up the road at his particular point, they were not really retarding the progress of discovery, and throwing difficulties in the way of even the most valuable inventions. There was no one batter acquainted with that subject than a friend of his—a gentleman very eminent both in science and in the law. He meant Mr. Grove; and those members of the legal profession who had to encounter Mr. Grove in a patent case knew they had a very difficult task indeed before them. Now, here were the words of Mr. Grove in reference to that subject—
  "Always when a discovery has been made, when the public has reaped the fruits of it, there is no case, and never was a case, either in the history of pure science or in the history of practical discovery, where it is not alleged—'If you look at such a book and such another book, you will find that so-and-so has been done, and you will find
  896
  that it has been anticipated.' That is partly true and partly false. There are in all such cases approximate anticipations. The difference is, that one man gets at the points, hits the real thing which will do it, and the reason why it will; whereas, other people, although they may have got the thing, have not acquired an accurate knowledge which will enable them with certainty to produce it."
  That showed the House that the race was so close that even the man who had practically got the thing might be shut out by somebody else who did it a trifle bettor. Nothing could be more true than that. Would the House allow him to quote the example of a very important patent, which he thought would make the matter clear, and indicate how much they might lose by a system of that description. For a very long time the distillation of oils from shale and coal had been a matter of the common knowledge—ay, and of the common practice, of mankind. Early in the present, or towards the end of the last century, it was practised by means precisely similar in all material points to those which the present patentees used in this country. But it was not known commercially that there was such a thing as paraffin, nor was it known commercially how to distil it. The oil was, indeed, obtained in a rough way, without that nicety of discrimination which afterwards resulted from scientific knowledge of the article itself. All chemists knew that in order to get these oils instead of a gaseous product it was necessary to keep the temperature as low as possible. This was the state of know-lodge when a great German chemist discovered that by operating on wood, tar, and other substances, he could produce paraffin in small quantities. He also said it could be got from coals, in precisely the same way, as was subsequently done by patentees in this country. But still the German chemist's experiments were of a scientific and not of a commercial character. He neither produced it commercially, nor did he hit upon the material from which it could be commercially produced. The same oil could be and was produced from shale. Only the other day there was discovered in Scotland a now kind of mineral, as to which the scientific world were at variance whether it was coal or shale. Patents had been already taken out for distilling oil from shale, and, therefore, if the newly-discovered

  897
  substance were shale, the oil could not be obtained from it without the infringement of those patents. But a patent was taken out by a gentleman, who stated that his object was to distil bituminous coals at a low red heat for the purpose of distilling paraffin. In point of fact, he hit upon a mineral which was in ambiguo whether it was coal or shale, but which the authorities ultimately pronounced to be coal. From this substance the oil could be produced in larger quantities than from any other known mineral. This gentleman (Mr. Young) took out his patent, notwithstanding all the previous knowledge on the subject, and it was held to be good, notwithstanding the fact to which the learned Judge who decided the case in one of its branches referred in the following terms:—
  "There is ample evidence that the attention of practical chemists was previously to the date of Young's patent laboriously directed to discover the proper material and the proper means of producing these articles in sufficiently large quantities for common purposes."
  The public literally had in their hands all the necessary elements of knowledge belonging to the subject, and yet the first person who found that this particular coal would distil better than others excluded the rest of the world from that manufacture for fourteen years, and of course amassed a large fortune. Substantially, the test in the courts of law was not priority, but commercial success —whether a man had made money and brought the manufacture into use. If so, the courts assumed that all previous knowledge was inadequate and useless, and the man who was successful in the manufacture was regarded as the discoverer. Was it not quite clear, however, that the public were so far on the road to this discovery that it would have assuredly been found out and enjoyed by the public at large if the path had not been obstructed by the patent? He would now mention another case. In the days of their youth mills were much infested with flour flying about in them. All the millers, both in this country and abroad, wanted to get rid of this nuisance, and they were possessed of the scientific principle and the mechanical means by which this desirable object could be accomplished. They tried experiments with fans, which created a draught to draw the air from the mill-
  898
  stone cases; but everything depended on the adjustment of a plan to draw ju6t sufficient air and no more. People were actually on the road, and were doing the thing in an imperfect way—in a way which if they had continued after the granting of the patent would probably have made them infringers of it. But the man who proposed to do just enough, and no more, was held to be entitled to a patent, whereupon all the millers in England combined to go into litigation in order to defend themselves. Lawsuits of the most enormous and oppressive magnitude resulted simply from the circumstance that a man had been allowed to stop in and prevent the millers from carrying on their business in the best way. That they would have found it out was certain. [An Hon. MEMBER: Oh, oh!] Well, that was certainly the impression on his mind. He thought it was almost certain that the discovery being in the direction of their necessity and depending on the application of a known principle, and of known mechanical means, was a discovery which could not, in the course of nature, have been long delayed. Having said thus much about those patents which were meritorious, he would make a few re-marks on those which were not. A great number of patents were simply frivolous, and related to practical nothings; but still nothings affecting trades, and standing like lions in the path to frighten trades people, and to expose them to risk, litigation, and annoyance, if they manufactured those articles which they ought to be at liberty to manufacture. Then there were other patents of a less frivolous nature. They related to some slight improvements or combinations of a kind which really was so plainly in the open path, that everybody ought to be at liberty to use it. Most of these were themselves so limited and imperfect, as, without further improvements, to be of little or no use. These, however, furnished the staple of the great majority of patents, which, though they did no practical good, operated to a great extent in hindering subsequent inventors in effecting further improvements, because these patents covered and incumbered almost the whole ground of everything that could be possibly done. An inventor, unless he paid a tax to the owners of prior useless patents, was exposed to litigation, and even if he

  899
  were willing to pay the tax, the owners of the prior useless patent might refuse to grant him a license. Thus, for the space of fourteen years, these useless patents might not only do no good to the public, but might actually stop the road to all further improvement during that long period. On this subject evidence had been given before the Royal Commission in 1864, by three persons of; eminence—Mr. Scott Russell, Sir William Armstrong, and Mr. Platt. These gentlemen agreed in saying that the useless patents to which he had just referred were a practical nuisance; and, if so. it was obvious from their number that they must be a very great nuisance. Mr. Scott Russell said—
  "There are a great many patents of this kind (practically useless, but not appearing so on the face of them) taken out for boilers of steam-engines; and boilers of steam-engines admit of very enormous variety of shape and proportions, without damaging their efficiency. The consequence is, that it is hardly possible at this moment for a man having to scheme a boiler for a new situation or new circumstances to avoid putting his foot in so doing into a trap which somebody has previously set for boilers…. Nearly the whole of the patents for the boilers of steam-engines at this moment are of no practical value to inventors or to the public; hut they are continually getting every man who makes a boiler into a scrape with some patentee, because almost every conceivable form of boiler having been previously patented, and bit of a boiler, one cannot make any sort of boiler without infringing some man's patent."
  He said precisely the same living of screws. Then Mr. Platt, a well-known machine maker, said—
  "I think that there is scarcely a week, certainly not a month, that passes, out what we have a notice of some kind or other of things that we have never hoard of in any way, and do not know of in the least, that we are infringing upon them; and the difficulty is to get at any knowledge. We may be now infringing, and may have been infringing for years, and a person may have been watching us all the time, and when he thinks that we have made a sufficient number, he may come down upon us, and there is no record. If a thing is entirely new, there is, 1 record by getting a description; but what I mean by a description is this—a very large number of patents are non-taken out for what is termed a combination of known things for the same purpose, and the descriptions of those patents are generally so bad, that it is impossible to tell the parts that are actually patented. It is only when you come into court, or after making some compromise rather than go to that expense, that you ascertain that fact, and very likely they themselves in many cases do not know the parts that they have actually claimed. It appears to me that, as to that question of combination, the granting of patents for things to do precisely the same work in the
  900
  same machine, with the addition, perhaps, of a chain or a couple of bolts, or the form of the lever changed, a straight lever made into a compound one; in matters of that kind it has become a very serious question as to conducting a large business."
  These were examples which it would be very easy indeed to multiply, and if the objections he had urged against the meritorious patents were well founded, what could be said in favour of this large proportion of patents which were simply obstructing the trade and commerce of the country? Could anyone doubt that in the present advanced era of knowledge the public would gain, on the whole, by the abolition of the Patent Laws? Before he left that part of the subject he wished to mention one very pregnant fact. There was in this country a powerful consumer—he meant the Government—which, with respect to firearms, cannon, ships, and things of that sort, would be placed in a very singular position indeed if it were subject to the Patent Laws. During the time he had the honour of being a Law Officer of the Crown an extensive war was, as the House was aware, unfortunately raging, and a largo number of patents had come under his consideration in connection with so-called improvements in fire-arms, ordnance, and ships. It would be seen from the evidence to which his hon. Friend (Mr. Macfie) had referred that the authorities at the War Office and the Admiralty had patentees swarming like hornets about their ears, and that the public service seemed in consequence likely to to be obstructed to a very inconvenient extent. The question was then tried whether the Crown was bound by patents at all, and a decision was obtained to the effect that it was not. But while the Crown was free it should be remembered that the people at large were subject to the law as it stood; and, if in the case of the Government the claims of patentees were found to be monstrously inconvenient, it might not be difficult to believe that they operated in the same way in the case of the rest of the world also. He should not enter into the minor details of the improvements which had been recommended by the Commission of 1864, but there was another point to which he wished briefly to advert before he sat down; he alluded to the question of the protection of the public against invalid and bad patents. The whole argument in

  901
  favour of patents proceeded on the supposition that the public were likely to be really benefited by some disco very which was worth the price of all the inconvenience and obstruction to which they were exposed under the present system. But suppose that in a doubtful case it was said that the information was possessed before, and that nothing had been gained. What was the position in which they stood? Was there really any protection in that respect in the duties which were discharged by the Law Officers of the Crown? Those duties, though he trusted they had always been carefully and intelligently discharged, had no such object in view, and could not be made to accomplish it. It was impossible for the Law Officers of the Crown, acting on the mere statement of the patentee, to know whether a so-called discovery was new or not. They could only examine into the question whether an alleged invention, as described, was or was not such as to satisfy certain general rules; but they could in no way protect the public against having an old thing put forward as a new, or a useless as a useful invention. They had no choice but to pass everything that was not on the face of it bad; and he agreed with the Commissioners that any attempt to establish a preliminary examination into the novelty or utility of patents must necessarily fail, so long as the granting of patents was a matter of right and not of discretion. And what was the result when a patent came to be disputed in a court of law? Everybody was aware that such litigation had acquired a reputation infamous beyond every other. In the Paraffin Oil Company's case, which had been referred to, the time occupied before Vice Chancellor Stuart was not less than thirty whole days. Why was so large an amount of time consumed in those cases? Because it was necessary to enter into the whole history of the discovery, and of the arts and sciences connected with it, in all its numerous stages; and to beat up witnesses all over the country, who were able to say whether they had ever seen the same thing before, or anything like it; so that a voluminous mass of scientific and commercial evidence had to be produced. That was the reason why the expense in those cases was so enormous, while the public were in every point of view placed at an immense disadvantage; for the pre-
  902
  sumption was in favour of the patentee, who, if he happened to have succeeded in an action against another person, was entitled to have the fact put in evidence in the case, and might subject his opponent to extra costs. But that was not all. The defendant in such an action might fail, even though he proved, to the satisfaction of the common intelligence of mankind, that the alleged invention was not new, and that it had even been described in some other patent. In a case, he believed, of a patent for the purifying of gas by the use of oxide of iron, it appeared that there were two kinds of oxide, the hydrous and the anhydrous, and that the one would effect the object while the other would not; but because the terms were general, although everybody who tried the experiment might arrive at the result desired, the patent was held to be bad, and another person who took out another patent for the hydrate had his patent made good. Lord Westbury, who was as well acquainted with the subject as anybody who had in recent times occupied the Woolsack, said, in 1862, in speaking on that point—
  "To vitiate a patent by prior publication, whether in a prior specification or in a published book, &c., the antecedent statement must be such that a person of ordinary knowledge of the subject would at once perceive, understand, and be able practically to apply the discovery without the necessity of making further experiments. If anything remains to be ascertained which is necessary for the useful application of the discovery, that affords sufficient room for another valid patent."
  The case of Betts' capsule patent, which involved costs to an enormous amount, was somewhat similar. There, this was the state of things—A gentleman had taken out a patent in 1804, and in his specification stated that if you put together plates of tin and lead, of equal or unequal thicknesses, and carried them at a hard pinch through rollers, they would adhere, and you would be able to get a good material. It turned out that the thing would answer well if you adopted proper proportions of thickness but not otherwise; and the person who indicated these proportions got a good and valuable patent in 1850. In that case Lord Westbury laid down the doctrine that if the two specifications, one dated 1804, and the other 1850, had been in the very same words, it would not follow that they described the same tiling, and that it would be still neces-

  903
  sary to prove what was meant by the specification of 1804, and that practical men could then have worked from that description, to show their identity. It would be seen, he thought, from what he had stated, that the public were placed at a great disadvantage in the contest. In dealing with patent cases in a court of law there was generally a vast array of witnesses to be examined, consisting of mechanics, chemists, and scientific men of all sorts on one side and the other. It was said that the construction rested with the court; but the effect of all this evidence, after all, was for the jury, who knew nothing of the subject; and the Judge might be placed in a still worse position, because he might imagine he understood all about it when he did not. He did not, of course, mean to say that the Judge did not some times very well understand it; but it might very easily happen that an ingenious professional witness might so argue the case, under the form of giving evidence, as to lead a Judge to think that he really knew all about it when such was not in reality the fact. Then the bias being in favour of the patentee, the result of such trials almost invariably was, that if the matter happened to be of any practical importance, the public were defeated, after having endeavoured to protect themselves at an enormous expense. He would not enter into minute details, but probably he had said enough to show that a great practical evil arose out of Patent Laws, and that for this evil there was little or no corresponding benefit. He did not think that we should lose really valuable discoveries if the Patent Laws were abolished. There might be some rare instances in which particular circumstances night give to particular trades motives and facilities for suppressing by combination discoveries which were not patented. But, assuming that to be possible in some cases, the same causes operated even now, for it was well known that patents were often bought up for the purpose of being suppressed; and it was understood also that inventors were frequently the persons who derived the least advantage from their inventions. His conclusion, therefore, upon the whole matter was that the time had at last arrived—even if it had not arrived some time ago—at which the public interest would be promoted by the entire abolition of the present system of monopoly.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, the time has arrived when the interests of trade and commerce, and the progress of the arts and sciences in this Country, would be promoted by the abolition of Patents for Inventions,"—(Mr. Macfie,)
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  LORD STANLEYsaid, that agreeing substantially in the arguments of the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down, he should not have troubled the House if it had not been for the circumstance that he was Chairman of the Royal Commission which sat upon the question of the administration of the Patent Law some years ago; and he thought, therefore, that it might be expected from him that he should state what was the result which that inquiry had produced upon his mind. There was no doubt that, quite apart front the principle of the law, the details of the law, as at present administered, were not satisfactory; and, if a Patent Law were to continue in any form, he believed that in the Report of that Commission various suggestions would be found by which the most prominent objections to its present working might be removed, and fair trial might be given to the principle itself. But it was impossible to carry on an inquiry of that kind, even limited as it was—it was impossible, at least for him, and he believed he was not the only one in that position—without a doubt being forced on one's mind whether any Patent Law could be framed in such a manner as not upon the whole, upon the balance of good and evil, to do more harm than good. That conclusion, he was bound to say, was totally opposed to his earliest impressions upon the subject. He resisted it for some time; but the more he had to look into this matter—the more he had to consider how great were the practical abuses and inconveniences of the existing system, and how difficult it would be to remedy them—the more clearly it appeared to him that the evil was really irremediable, being inherent in the principle itself. On this subject of patents there had been a certain amount of prejudice, particularly in the minds of literary men, who appeared to

  905
  think that copyright was only a modification of the same principle, and that, if patent-right were abolished, copyright would soon follow. The analogy seemed a plausible one, but he thought that, on being looked into, it would not hold water. The difference was simply this—he did not rest it on any abstract ground, as to the distinction between invention and discovery, but on the obvious fact that no two men ever did or ever would write, independently of one another, exactly the same book; each book, be it good or bad would stand alone; whereas it might happen, and often did happen, that two or three, or even half-a-dozen men, quite independently of one another, would hit upon the same invention. That fact alone established a distinction between the two cases. He was not disposed to place the objection which he entertained to the system of patents upon the ground of any abstract impropriety in giving a man a property in ideas. To a certain extent you did, in the case of copyright, recognize a certain qualified and temporary property in ideas; and, if it could be shown that a man's ideas had been of a nature to add greatly to the wealth of the country, he did not think that any abstract objections of the kind mentioned by the hon. Member (Mr. Macfie) would induce anybody to grudge to such a man any reward to which he might fairly be entitled, provided that that reward could be given in a manner free from objection on other grounds. The objections which he felt to the principle of patents were three-fold. In the first place, you could hardly ever secure the reward going to the right man. In the next place, you could not establish any proportion between the public service rendered and the value of the reward received nominally for that service. And, thirdly, you could not, by any arrangement that he had been able to discover, prevent very great inconvenience and injury being inflicted upon third parties. With regard to the first point—the difficulty of securing that the reward should go to the right man—it must be remembered that a patent did not, as some people supposed, bring to the holder of it an immediate pecuniary recompenses. All that it did was to give him a right to prevent anyone else from using his invention without paying for it; in other words, if his patent were in-
  906
  fringed, he was entitled to take legal proceedings. But everybody knew that the law was costly, and that patent suits were the most costly of all. It was notorious that patents were continually infringed by persons who well knew they were infringing them, but relied upon the inability of the inventor to incur the expense of defending his property. If a poor inventor took out a patent, and the patent promised to be productive, in nine cases out of ten, the only thing he could do with it to bring himself any profit, was to sell it to some one who could command capital enough to defend it in a court of law. If the patent remained in his own hands, it was quite sure to be infringed, and then he would probably be crushed by legal expenses. He did not know whether it would be possible to obtain accurate information upon this point; but he really did not think he should be exaggerating if he said that in nine cases out of ten—probably in ninety-nine out of 100—the reward was obtained, not by inventors or their representatives, but by persons who had bought the patent on speculation and at a very low rate. He said at a low rate, because there was a great deal of uncertainty about such property; until a patent was tested by actual working you could hardly say whether it was valuable or not, and the doubt necessarily kept down the price. What was the practical effect of this? Why, that a few great firms in any branch of business, buying up, at a low rate, any new patent applicable to their business, and prepared to fight for it, could so hamper other competitors as to secure a practical monopoly. The reward, therefore, did not, as a rule, go to the men who, on the ground of the public service rendered by them, were intended to receive it. As to the second point—that the reward might be great and the public service very small—that had been dwelt upon by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir Roundell Palmer), and little need be added to what had been said by him. The merit and novelty of the invention might in many cases be almost nothing, and yet, however obvious it might be, however much it might lie, so to speak, in the high road of discovery, if it applied to any article of general use, the pecuniary reward derived from it might be absolutely out of proportion to either its

  907
  novelty or its value. It would be easy to give instances, but he apprehended that the fact was familiar to everyone who had studied this question. Then, with regard to the injury to third parties, it commonly happened that half-a-dozen men, who were competing in the same line of business, were upon the track of the same discovery. Each of these half-a-dozen men would probably have hit upon the invention which was wanted, independently and without communication with the other. But the first who hit upon it and who took out a patent for it was thereby entitled to exclude the general public and his competitors from the use: of that which, if he had never existed, they would probably have hit upon within a few weeks. A and B reached the same point, one a week or a fortnight before the other, and A became entitled, by the mere accident of that priority, to exclude B from a process which, a little later on, B would have hit upon for himself. Another case was that where the successful working of a process depended not upon one but upon several successive inventions. The first two or three, not leading to any immediate practical result, might not have been thought worth patenting. The last link in the chain gave to the whole their commercial value, and it was the person who took out the patent for the last invention who got the benefit of the whole, although it might be by no means the most important invention in the series. He would say nothing of the inconvenience caused to manufacturers in general. That was obvious enough, and the question was whether there was any counterbalancing advantage. These were the main considerations which led him to the conclusion that it was impossible to defend our system of Patent Law as it stood. At the same time, he did not at ail disguise from the House that there were certain inconveniences and difficulties in the way of abolishing patents altogether. You had to guard, in the first place, against the danger of encouraging inventors to keep their discoveries entirely to themselves. In some branches of business, no doubt, that would be possible, and the obvious effect might be to shut out the public, for a much longer period than would be the case if patents were allowed, from the use of some valuable invention. Then
  908
  it had been suggested by the hon. Member who raised this debate (Mr. Macfie) that there might be a system of State rewards for the encouragement of really meritorious inventions. Without putting an absolute negative on that plan, he thought it was one that ought to be entered upon with great caution. Inventors were a jealous race; and it would be a very difficult thing to apportion among them the rewards to which they might think themselves entitled. The distribution of the rewards could be governed by no clear and simple rule; it would give rise to endless complaints, and would occasion, however unjustly, suspicions of jobbing and partiality. With regard to the suggestion thrown out by the hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir Roundell Palmer) of the possibility of reverting to the older administration of the law, and granting patents not as a right but as a matter of discretion only in certain limited and important cases, the Commission considered that point very carefully; and he was bound to say that the difficulty of carrying it out appeared to his mind almost insuperable. There would be found great difficulty in drawing the line, and it would not be an easy matter for anyone to exercise so largo a discretionary power as to decide what inventions were really valuable and important and what were not worthy of patenting. He did not know what tribunal would be fit to exercise so great an authority, and he was sure that none would be able to exercise it in a manner to give satisfaction to the public. The most fit persons to decide in such a case would, seeing the difficulty of the task, be sure to decline to undertake the duty. Under these circumstances it appeared that they wore landed in a position of great embarrassment. He was convinced that the Patent Laws did more harm than good; but, at the same time, he saw certain hard cases that would arise from their entire abolition without any means being provided for the rewarding of inventors who might really be deserving of it. If called on to say "Aye" or "No "to the Motion, he should certainly give his vote in favour of it; but, as this was a matter of great delicacy, and which required very careful handling, he should be content to leave the question in the hands of the Government, and he thought it

  909
  was well worth consideration whether they could not institute some inquiry, starting, not on the same ground as the Commission did some years ago, but on the ground that the abolition of the Patent Laws, wholly or partially, was desirable, with the view of discovering, if possible, the best mode in which that abolition could take place, and the best substitute for them in certain cases.
  MR. J. HOWARDsaid, he thought the hon. Member who had introduced the subject had been singularly fortunate in finding so able a seconder as the hon. and learned Member for Richmond (Sir Roundel) Palmer). He had listened with much attention and no little interest to the objections and views, not only of the hon. Member who had brought forward the Motion (Mr. Macfie). but also of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley), and of the hon. and learned Gentleman who seconded it. It appeared to him that most of the arguments that had been urged did not touch the principle of a Patent Law. but went rather to the defects of the existing law and its administration. In dealing with the objections raised by the hon. and learned Member to the principle of a Patent Law, he felt at how great a disadvantage he stood in having to combat the views of so able and distinguished a man; but it appeared to him as a plain practical man that the arguments used were more subtle and theoretical than sound. He maintained that the greater portion of the arguments of the hon. and learned Member did not apply to the principle of a Patent Law which he had assailed, but to the defects of our present system. If we would condescend to borrow some ideas from America, many of the objections which have been urged to-night would fall to the ground. A greater part of the evil complained of resulted from the sham examinations which now took place on the application for patents. The hon. and learned Gentleman said it was impossible for the Law Officers of the Crown to institute a proper inquiry; but, seeing that they received about £16,000 a year for that duty, it was desirable to know why it could not be performed. Again, the Act of 1862 made provision for the appointment of additional Commissioners; but this had not been carried into effect, consequently patentees had great cause to complain of the administration of the law. The diffi-
  910
  culty in trying patent cases mainly arose from the loose and imperfect way in which the specifications had been permitted to be drawn up, so that it was impossible to say what was new and what was old in them. He was prepared to show the House how these evils might be remedied, and these difficulties overcome, but this was neither the time nor the occasion to do so. The hon. and learned Gentleman had alluded to the three great inventions of the age—the steam engine, the electric telegraph, and the screw propeller—but was he prepared to maintain that these inventions would have reached their present state of perfection without the stimulus of the Patent Law? One objection urged against the Patent Laws was that patents gave a monopoly, and acted as a restraint upon trade. He admitted that, as at present administered, they did so; but if the State in granting a patent gave no exclusive right, and patentees were obliged to grant licenses on reasonable terms, to be settled by an independent body, this objection would be removed. There existed under the present system what is termed "dog-in-the-manger" patents, which are an unmitigated evil, and should be swept away. The hon. and learned Member had also alluded in an important and well-known invention in the grinding of corn, and had, he would say, jumped to the conclusion that it could not long have remained undiscovered, but he would ask what grounds had he for this assertion? The fact was that the world had gone on for 3,000 years grinding corn, without any material improvement in the method, until a man of genius like Bovill arose to make the discovery, but who, owing to the disgraceful state of our laws, was afterwards worried to death by litigation. Although he did not agree with the conclusions arrived at by the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. Macfie), he felt indebted to him for having brought the subject before the House. Much misapprehension undoubtedly existed in the public mind on the question of the Patent Laws and their administration. This discussion would enable hon. Members to clear away some of the mist and doubt that prevailed. It appeared to him that the main arguments had tended to show the necessity for an amendment rather than an abolition of the existing laws. That the Patent Laws as they now exist, and as

  911
  they are at present administered, are open to grave and serious objections he readily granted; but that their abolition would result in advantage to the country, or to the welfare and interest of i any particular portion of the community he altogether disbelieved. It must be remembered that England has at the present day most formidable rivals in France. Germany. America, and Belgium; and that her manufacturers and workmen have to compete with the manufacturers and workmen of these countries, who have availed themselves, not only of the best English models, but have adopted those facilities of rapid production originated in our English workshops, and hitherto peculiar to them. The only chance the English manufacturer has of maintaining his place in the race is by adopting improved designs—finding out means to reduce the cost of his productions, and introducing improved plans for securing perfect workmanship. Those objects can only be obtained by much thought and great effort of the brain; and, as the race is a close one, and every year is becoming closer, it appeared to him that, instead of the State taking away a stimulus to invention, the nation is deeply interested in finding out in what way inventions and discoveries can be further stimulated; how research and means of improvement can be extended not only to the higher class of inventors, but to our working population among whom thousands are to be found of a mechanical or scientific turn. This was abundantly evident to all who had visited the industrial exhibitions of working men's productions in London and elsewhere. When in Washington some two years ago, no building he had seen in the States made such an impression on his mind as the Patent Museum in that city. It was so superior to anything of the kind in England that he felt almost ashamed that our old country was so much behind the new. This museum was in fact a great educational establishment, to which not only the inventors, but the public resorted for information. Every patent for which the United States had granted letters was not only classified there, but models of the inventions were arranged chronologically; while in another spacious and beautiful apartment were models of all the rejected patents, so that anyone could go into
  912
  that museum, and trace the progress of the various inventions step by step. He could not help thinking that a similar establishment in England could not but have considerable effect on the national weal. The noble Lord opposite, and the hon. and learned Member for Richmond, had drawn a somewhat subtle distinction between the production of a book and a machine, or other invention; it appeared to him that a book, a piece of music, a painting, and an invention, are all alike products of the brain; and the natural right of the author of a mechanical invention should be recognized by the State as fully as that of the author of a book. The noble Lord had said no two men ever wrote the same book at the same time, which is undoubtedly true; but he had frequently found that two anthers writing almost simultaneously conveyed precisely the same ideas, though not in the same language. Exactly so, if two men invented similar machines simultaneously, it was never found they carried out their ideas precisely in the same mechanical way. With respect to the statement of the hon. and learned Member for Richmond, that the laws of nature were the common right of mankind, which must be freely admitted, he held that the argument based upon it was untenable. The inventor made use of the laws of nature just as the author of a book used the common language of mankind. He might be obtuse, but for the life of him he could not see that the cases were not strictly analogous. He would ask hon. Members, who were unacquainted with mechanical subjects, what would be the effect of abolishing the Law of Copyright? Would the literature of the people be thereby enriched—would the taste of the country be improved? He believed the abolition of the Patent Laws would have on mechanical, chemical, and other industrial pursuits, precisely the same effect as the abolition of the Law of Copyright upon literature and the fine arts. The hon. Member who introduced this subject said he would not withhold compensation from a meritorious inventor, but he would ask who was to decide the knotty point of merit, and its money value? At present the State very wisely left this to be decided by a discerning and purchasing public, and he believed it would continue to do so. To his mind it would be altogether infra dig.; to

  913
  him, personally, it would be revolting to have to go, cap in hand, to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or some other State official, to press his claim for compensation, or get some powerful political friend to do so for him. No—from past experience of Government treatment, inventors would never consent to be left to the tender mercies of a State Department, but would prefer to confide their claims for reward to a discriminating public. That the Patent Laws and their administration should have been left so long unreformed is a scandal to former Parliaments. The machinery is costly, cumbrous, and withal uncertain and inefficient. Inquiries have been made, and a Royal Commission years ago passed condemnation, and suggested reform; but nothing, or next to nothing, has been done. We have the finest library of patented inventions in the world, yet the bulk of it was stowed away in a passage six feet wide. He knew it well, having often been there. It was really a passage just 6 feet 3 inches wide, and formerly led to the offices of the Master in Chancery. Could it be believed that such a state of things had been allowed to exist when, since the passing of the Patent Law Act of 1852, the surplus revenues of the office had been over £0.50,000, but a fraction of which had been expended for the benefit of inventors who had contributed the money? he held that the surplus should be devoted not to increasing the general revenue, but to promoting patent objects and the general advancement of science. He thought, as he had previously stated, this was scarcely the occasion for entering into details concerning the improvements necessary in our Patent Laws, but expressed a hope that, when the subject was taken in hand by the Law Officers of the Crown—and he had reason to believe they would take it in hand next Session—they would provide the means of a bonâ fide examination of all inventions before patents were granted, and also provide that the specification should be so clear that the public may know what really the patent was granted for, and thus save the ruinous cost of legal proceedings. He would conclude by declaring his deliberate conviction that, if they wished to undermine the manufacturing and commercial greatness of England, they could not
  914
  take any more effectual mode of doing so than by abolishing the Patent Laws.
  MR. MUNDELLAsaid, he wished the House to consider what would happen if the Patent Laws were abolished. He had been for twenty-five years connected with manufactures as an employer, and during that time he might say he had more than twenty patents, in every one of which he had a working man in partnership with him. He had never made an invention in his life; he did not know in his neighbourhood of one invention made by an employer. Inventions were generally made by working men; and a working man now received from his hon. Friend the Member for Bristol (Mr. Morley) and himself a third share of the profits of a patent invention which had already produced to him £2,000. About fourteen years ago he went into a garret where he found a poor man working on a circular revolving machine which he had fixed on the bottom of a wooden chair—the only chair in the room. For seven years he had been patiently working at it. It was completed. It was patented. He purchased it. The poor man had his share and was now in comfort and independence. No parties had a greater interest in the maintenance of the Patent Laws than working men; and, if they received no protection here for their inventions, they would soon carry them off to France or America. He did not say whether Patent Laws were right or wrong; but he could not discover the distinction which had been drawn by the hon. and learned Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer) between a book and an invention, both being the production of the author's brain just as much as the speeches of learned counsel, for which they were paid before they were given to the public, otherwise they would be wanting a Patent Law for their speeches. Every civilized nation in the world except one had a Patent Law. That the present law stimulated useful inventions was abundantly proved by the lace and hosiery machinery in the town of Nottingham, which was unparalleled in the world, and which had been perfected by the working men of that town. It was a great mistake to say that patents inflicted a hardship on the public. Patentees had found out that to attempt to keep a patent to themselves was a mistake, and that it was much better to

  915
  grant licenses with as small a royalty as possible, in order to get a large number of them in use and to enhance the consumption of the article as much as possible. He was himself the part proprietor of a patent which reduced by about one-half the price of an important article of clothing. Who had the benefit of this? The public got more than nine-tenths of the reduction, and the other tenth was divided into throe parts between the inventor and the two proprietors. There was the greatest difficulty in establishing the right to patents, and constant litigation and anxiety in maintaining them. All this pointed to a reform of the Patent Laws; for they were so vague, uncertain, and ambiguous that it was never known whether a patent was secure. Sometimes, when it was known an invention was coming out, a man who had heard the nature of it described went off and patented the idea. He could not do that in America. There he must deposit a working model, and a committee of scientific men sat and declared whether it was a good and valid invention or not. The result was that there were 11,000 patents per annum taken out America, against about 2,000 in this country. Nowhere had so much been done to develop industrial inventions as in America, and this was mainly owing to the excellence of the Patent Law in that country. He trusted that the House would consider the interests of the working men, and revise the Patent Law so as to give them a fair share in the products of their discoveries. The patents called "dog-in-the-manger patents" ought to be prohibited, and some Board appointed which should grant licenses to work patents at a reasonable rate.
  MR. STAPLETONsaid, he was much pleased to hear the able remarks of the hon. Members for Bedford (Mr. J. Howard) and Sheffield (Mr. Mundella) in favour of Patent Laws. The Motion of the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. Macfie) seemed to have the object of killing the goose that laid the country so many golden eggs. He appeared anxious to get rid of patents, but without giving inventors any encouragement. He (Mr. Stapleton) had no wish to put inventions and discoveries higher than they had been put by the hon. and learned Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer)—namely, that no man could have an absolute right in
  916
  his ideas and inventions longer than he kept them secret; but he met that by saying that every labourer was worthy of his hire, and if that was not given to a man they must not expect to get his work. There were three classes of inventors—the master manufacturer, the labourer, and the man of science who made invention a pursuit. The master manufacturer could repay himself at the expense of the community by keeping his invention a secret, and preventing others from using it; but the labourer, unless he had a Patent Law for his protection, would go unrewarded for his time and trouble. As to the third class they might turn their attention to something else; but it was desirable that every man should pursue the course of life which would do the greatest good to mankind, and if a man were likely to make discoveries it was to the interest of society to encourage him in that career. He could not, therefore, agree to any proposal to do away with the Patent Laws. It was a weak proposal; it appeared to him what they should do would be to amend them. No doubt, as the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn (Lord Stanley) had said, the question was surrounded with difficulties, but the noble Lord had not shown that they were insurmountable. Some more definite description ought to be insisted on before a patent was granted, and he (Mr. Stapleton) thought the American plan, that of requiring models to be deposited, was one deserving of consideration. He was also of opinion that the time for disputing the patent should be limited, and that the time allowed for the use of the patent might in some cases be reduced. A patent should be redeemed when it was found that it-would be conducive to the public interest that it should be redeemed, and that should be left to Chambers of Commerce to decide, the patentee of course being paid the fair value of his patent—the amount to be raised by subscription from those who were interested in the invention. Patentees should also be compelled to grant licenses at a reasonable rate. A great improvement had been affected by the practice now most common of investigating disputes as to patents in the Court of Chancery. A claimant must set forth in a bill that he had a good patent, and show that there had been a distinct breach of it, or it

  917
  would be open to demurrer. Then the defendant must deny the breach in his answer on oath before there was any issue which could be tried before a jury. This was less expensive than trying patent cases at Common Law. If they did away with Patent Laws altogether invention would be damped and discouraged.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, that anyone who had attended to the discussion must have seen that the question was surrounded with great difficulties, and it required a man who had studied the subject deeply, and had maturely formed his opinions, to be able to give a distinct opinion upon it. But having heard the opinion of the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. Macfie), the philosophy of patents so ably illustrated by the hon. and learned Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer), and having likewise listened to the philosophical view of the question which had been taken by the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn (Lord Stanley), he was bound to say that to his mind the practical speeches of the hon. Members for Bedford (Mr. J. Howard) and Sheffield (Mr. Mundella) were quite refreshing. They had taken a rational and sensible view of the question. He thought it would be unwise to hastily adopt the Resolution, and that it would be wiser on the part of the Government and the House to see if the Patent Laws could not be practically and beneficially amended, after the example of the United States. The opinions of the philosophers and the practical men were at variance upon the question; but the hon. Member for Sheffield had shown the great value of the Patent Laws in stimulating invention in working men, and putting them in a state of comparative wealth. A letter had been addressed to him (Lord Elcho) by the honorary secretary of the Working Men's International Exhibition to be held next year, of which the First Minister of the Crown was president and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland vice president, requesting his attention to a Notice of Motion on the Patent Laws for the 1st of June, and desiring him to use his influence to resist any efforts which might be made in the interests of capital to abolish those rights of inventors which, notwithstanding all the defects of the process by which they were secured, were felt to be the only practicable and
  918
  available means of rewarding inventors. The reason of the letter being addressed to him was simply this—Some two or three months ago he was waited upon by a deputation of working men connected with the International Exhibition of 1S70, who asked him to take charge, this Session, of a Bill to protect their inventions at the coming Exhibitions. He promised to do so; and a Bill was in preparation which would be framed on the precedent of the Exhibition of 1851, supported as it was by a similar measure in 1862. He confessed that he deemed it desirable, in the interest of inventors, that the Government, instead of hastily adopting the measure of the hon. Gentleman, would favourably consider the letter to which he had alluded. He felt great difficulty in the distinction which had been attempted to be drawn between a book and an invention.
  MR. SAMUDAsaid, there was one point of view of the subject before the House which had hardly been touched on in the course of the debate. He had not heard it stated whether the patentees themselves were really gainers or not by the Patent Laws; and this alone should cause the House to hesitate till they had ascertained the effect of those laws on the prosperity and prospects of inventors. He had often heard it argued that patentees were by no means as a whole gainers by their inventions, owing to the cost and trouble they were at to secure protection and develop their plans. This should not be lost sight of in considering the question, because, if the patentees were found to be losers and the public not gainers by the present system, the House would it-self be carried very far towards the conclusion expressed by the Motion of the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. Macfie). Another point appeared to him to be of very great importance; and that was this—Supposing it should turn out, as he believed it would, that the inventors had not been prosperous under the Patent Laws, and that the country had been damaged by patents, it became a very serious question whether this failure ought not to be attributed, in a great measure, to circumstances surrounding the administration of the Patent Laws, which he fancied were at the root of the mischief, and the removal of which might change the complexion of the whole question. For instance, it was

  919
  well known that many patents were taken out, not so much with a view to profit or even with a view to working, but simply in order to obstruct the action of a bonâ fide inventor and prevent him fretting the benefit of his invention. When any subject was fixing public attention—such as the introduction of the screw propeller, improvement in rifles and the like—the regular patent-monger was always to be found applying for patents on these subjects, and wording his title so as to cover all or most of the improvements that were likely to be worked out between the date of his patent and the time allowed to specify; and if he could succeed in ascertaining particulars of any improvements whatever matured by others in this interval, he was in the position to insert them in his specification, which the wording of his title enabled him to do, and the priority of his date gave him the advantage of doing. No greater nuisance was known to manufacturers than these "fishing patents," as they were called. The genuine inventor was met at every turn by them—harrassed—interfered with and generally compelled to buy the holders of them off to avoid serious litigation and certain loss, if by not doing so he were driven to contest the validity of the abstracted invention. In his own view the invention of a machine and the invention of a book were similar; and if no public mischief resulted from it the inventor of a useful machine had as perfect a title to be protected in the result of his brains as had the author of a book; but he would not have the road constantly stopped by these purloined and sham inventions. He asked that an accurate investigation of the whole subject might precede any action by Parliament; because even if the only result desirable were an amendment of the law, inquiry was necessary to show in what respects the law required amendment. If the extent of the obstruction caused by the patents to which he had alluded, and the extraordinary lengths to which the law was stretched by the Judges could not be remedied and were found to be sufficient to justify the abolition of the Patent Law, he would let it go. The hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella) and those who sided with him must not, however, think that the country would suffer by inventors
  920
  taking their inventions across the water to other countries, as a consequence of the abolition of the Patent Law, because in those foreign countries where the invention was taken to it would be protected, while here it would be at the service of every manufacturer in the kingdom.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, the House must assuredly feel indebted to his hon. Friend (Mr. Macfie) for bringing forward this subject. They had heard able speeches on both sides; but when he reminded hon. Members that this was the first debate, so far as he was aware, in which the general principle of the law had been discussed, he thought he had said enough to show that it would be somewhat premature to come to a conclusion upon this important question. In fact, he doubted whether even the hon. and. learned Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer) was prepared to say we were in a position to abolish the Patent Law; and the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. Macfie) seemed not to go the length of his own Motion, because he had talked of State remuneration to meritorious inventors, instead of allowing them, as at present, a monopoly under the Patent Laws; but, with respect to this, he submitted that it was impossible for the State to value an invention at its first exhibition; the value could only be ascertained by experience. The Report of the Patent Law Commission said that no rule could be laid down for estimating the value of a patent. That part of the scheme of his hon. Friend was, therefore, he thought, altogether inadmissible. He concurred with the noble Lord, who had spoken some little time previously (Lord Stanley), that it would be extremely difficult—he thought it would be very invidious—for the State or any public functionary to make a selection of patents and say— "These are approved and these are rejected." If such an attempt wore made, the certain result would be that, while many bad inventions were subsidized, many of the most valuable would receive nothing. Without discussing the somewhat subtle metaphysical distinctions which had been drawn between the principle of the Law of Copyright and the Law of Patents, he would observe in passing that it seemed to him that there was a strong analogy between the effort of mind, by which Adam

  921
  Smith discovered the laws which regulate the wealth of nations, and that by which Professor Wheatstone discovered the laws which regulate electric telegraphy. Again, was there no such thing as literary invention? Was not the construction of the plot of a play as much an invention as the construction of a machine? Was there not sometimes as sharp a competition for the appropriation and adaptation of a French plot, as for the appropriation and adaptation of a mechanical contrivance? Putting the question on the broad ground that the object of the Patent Laws was to encourage by, perhaps, a high, although very uncertain, reward, the production of inventions, he would ask—had the law had this effect? He could not help thinking that the effect had been too great—that they had been too successful in encouraging inventors, so much so that they had produced a large number of inventions running the same route, and treading on each other's heels. The nation had held before workmen a reward for their inventions, and he thought they ought seriously to consider what would be the result if they entirely took away the stimulus to invention. He thought it would be a dangerous experiment, and one that should not be attempted, without further and fuller inquiry. He admitted that there were great evils in the working of the present system, but the conclusion at which he had arrived was in opposition to that of the noble Lord (Lord Stanley), and the hon. and learned Member for Richmond. On the whole he thought the Patent Laws did more good than harm. It had been asked whether they could not be amended? He did not see why they could not. At all events, he thought an effort should be made in the way of amendment, before they listened to a proposition to abolish them. The Commissioners, amongst whom wore Lord Stanley, Lord Overstone, Sir William Page Wood, Sir William Erle, Lord Cairns, Mr. Fairbairn, and other eminent men, in their Report, had made various recommendations with respect to the improvement of the Patent Laws, and in those recommendations he entirely concurred. One of the recommendations was that a careful inquiry should be made, under the direction of the Law Officers of the Crown, as to whether there had been
  922
  any previous documentary publication of a similar invention, and that if there had the patent should be refused. He was far from, saying that the inquiry should stop there, but still he believed that such an investigation would result in great public advantage. It had been further suggested that a patentee should be required to deposit a model, as well as a specification of his invention. Believing, as he did, that the multiplication of patents was a very serious evil, he, in conjunction with his learned Colleague, had taken upon himself, since he had been in Office, the responsibility of stopping many patents of a frivolous character, and he should be glad if their powers of rejection were increased. Serious, and he believed, well-founded complaints had been made with respect to the enormous expenses attendant upon patent litigation, and upon this point the Commissioners had suggested that patent cases should be tried, not before a jury, but before a Judge to be appointed for that especial purpose, assisted by one or two scientific men as assessors. The whole subject was one which deserved the best consideration of the Government, and of the House; and he saw no reason why some hon. Member who was interested in the subject should not, in the course of the present or of the next Session, move for a Committee of that House to inquire into it, and to ascertain how the Patent Laws might be amended. In conclusion, he would remark that the working classes, who had been truly described as having the deepest interest in this subject, were opposed to the abolition of the Patent Laws. He had received a deputation the other day which he believed represented the working classes in the different parts of the country, and that deputation was unanimous in deprecating the Motion which was now before the House. Although they admitted that the Patent Laws required modification, so far from desiring those laws to be abolished, they appeared to think that facilities for obtaining patents should be increased. He trusted that, under all the circumstances, the House would be of opinion that the Motion of his hon. Friend was premature, and that his hon. Friend would withdraw it.
  MR. DENMANsaid, that while agreeing with the Attorney General that the Motion was premature, he confessed

  923
  he was a little disappointed in not hearing what were the intentions of the Government in respect of the question. It was clear that the Patent Laws required very considerable alteration and amendment, and he wished the Government had at least promised that they should be considered by a Committee of the House with a view to legislation. The subject had been inquired into by the Commission only, and that Commission had not entered into the whole question. Still they came deliberately to the conclusion that they could only report on the basis of a Patent Law substantially the same as that now existing, and they only reported in favour of certain alterations. But the principal witnesses examined by the Commissioners consisted of patent agents, officials, persons thoroughly acquainted with the administration of the law, and great patentees, almost, if not altogether, excluding the element which had played a considerable part in this night's discussion-he meant the interests of the working men, the inventors. All lawyers who had anything to do with patent trials knew that very often the gentlemen who obtained the benefit of the Patent Law was the mere capitalist. His hon. and learned Friend the Member for Richmond (Sir Roundell Palmer) cited one or two cases of which he (Mr. Denman) had some knowledge from being concerned as counsel in the cases. The hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. J. Howard) took a different view of these cases, and quoted some of them as if they negatived the argument of the hon. and learned Member for Richmond. He quoted especially one, the corn-grinding ease, which cost some £100,000; and seemed to think that the hon. and learned Member for Richmond had made a mistake in citing that case, for he said that Mr. Bovill had made a discovery which would not possibly have been made for centuries but for the Patent Laws. Mr. Bovill, in fact, had the wit to see the value of the invention, but he admitted twenty years ago that the idea was not his own; but that he adopted it, after having seen its operation abroad. He thought that the House ought to receive from the Government a more explicit-declaration of what in their opinion ought to be done, and of the manner and time when it should be carried out.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

  POST OFFICE—LANDING MAILS AT A WESTERN PORT.—OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, he rose to call attention to the advantages to the public service of embarking and landing the Mails at a Western Port. It must be admitted on all hands that cæteris paribus, mails were carried more quickly and more certainly by land than by sea. This was the case in the days of the mail coaches and the sailing vessels, and it continued to be so in these days of railway trains and steamboats. It seemed obvious, therefore, that on general grounds, the most westerly English port should be selected for the arrival and dispatch of the mails. Prom 1688 to 1834 those mails for distant places across the sea which were now embarked and landed at Southampton had been embarked and landed at Falmouth. When the change was made, in 1S34, steam had been adopted for mail boats, but the railway system had not been generally adopted in this country; and as steam vessels had the advantage over coaches, Southampton at that time had an advantage over Falmouth which it did not at present possess. Falmouth was now in a position, to receive the full advantages of her superior natural position. The feeling in her favour was widely spread among merchants and nautical men. In 1865 there was presented a memorial from a large number of merchants of London to Lord Stanley of Alderley, who wan at that time Postmaster General. That memorial was signed by sixty leading houses, including the firms of Frühling and Goschen, and of T. Daniel and Company; the former being the firm of which the present President of the Poor Law Board (Mr. Goschen) was the head, and the latter that of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Shore-ham the late Vice President of the Board of Trade (Mr. S. Cave) was then the principal. The memorialists urged that in order to substitute a fixed day of the week and to obtain greater dispatch these mails should be made up on the evening of the first and third Thursdays of every month; that they should be embarked at Falmouth; that the homeward mails should be landed as that port; and that the letters should be sorted on board the packets during the voyage. It was confidently esti-

  925
  mated that by the adoption of this route at least one day would be gained by London in the course of post, while to Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Glasgow, and the other northern towns, with the whole of Ireland, the saving of time would be still greater. In regard to persons living in the North, the inconveniences they endured from the mails being landed at Southampton, and having to pass through London were extremely serious. The Liverpool Chamber of Commerce, the Glasgow Chamber of Commerce and Manufactures, the Man-Chester Chamber of Commerce, the West India Association of Glasgow, the provost, magistrates, and town council of Aberdeen, the provost and corporation of Greenock, and of Paisley, and several Chambers of Commerce of leading towns in England, besides those which he had named had all presented memorials in favour of Falmouth. The memorial of the Manchester Chamber of Commerce stated that the port of Falmouth was admirably adapted for a packet station, and so lately as 1850 it was partially used for that purpose. There could now be no objection to Falmouth, because the docks were completed, and the port was connected with the railway. Among the nautical opinions favourable to Falmouth were those of Captains Walker and Bedford, who were connected with the Marine Department of the Board of Trade. Captain Bedford pointed out the superior weather position of Falmouth, which became of the utmost importance in case of stormy weather. Admiral Beaufort, the Hydrographer to the Admiralty, had expressed his unequivocal opinion that Falmouth from its southwestern position had great advantages over other ports; that the mails should be carried on the land as far as possible; and that the railroad when constructed to Falmouth, would confirm it still more as the best port in England for a packet station. Admiral J. B. Sullivan, C. B., who was for years at the head of the Marine Department of the Board of Trade, in a letter addressed to The Times, dated Nov. 22, 1865. stated, that—
  "If Falmouth were made the mail port, some hours each way would be saved in the case of the London mails; for the northern districts the saving would be much more, while the additional risks and delays caused by logs being more prevalent to the eastward, in the neighbourhood of
  926
  the Isle of Wight and Southampton especially, made it still more desirable to land the mails at a western port."
  Captains Symonds and Evans, of the Royal Navy, and Sir Alexander Gordon had expressed an equally emphatic opinion in favour of Falmouth. Now, he had no doubt that the hon. Member for Plymouth would be prepared to advocate the claims of that port with his accustomed ability, but the facts were against him. In the recent case of the Tasmanian, in regard to which he had put a question to the noble Marquess opposite, it was admitted by him that her mails had to be sent on by special train from Plymouth, though they might have been landed at Falmouth in time for the ordinary train through Bristol; and he had been informed that on the 13th of this month the Seine passed Falmouth in time for the mails to have been sent by the ordinary train, whereas they had to be sent specially from Plymouth. In respect to the capabilities of Falmouth as a port of call, there was satisfactory evidence. He held in his hand a letter from Mr. Dymond, who represented the Loan Commissioners at Falmouth, stating that—
  "The vessels of the New York and Havre United States Mail Steam Ship Company carried passengers and mails between New York, Falmouth, and Havre. They commenced running in or about December, 1865, and ceased in November, 1867. The company had two vessels of their own and chartered two others, and they ceased running because the latter became unavailable, and because of the competition with a highly subsidized French line, the American vessels being unable to equal the French in speed. They called at Falmouth sixty-two times, and the average time of detention of the ship for landing mails and passengers was twenty minutes. It was a very exceptional circumstance for the steamer to drop her anchor or come to moorings, and the time occupied in transit of mails and passengers from ship to landing-place, which is close to the railway-station, varied from ten to twenty-five minutes."
  On making the Lizard, a ship was fifty-four miles from Plymouth and eighteen from Falmouth, a difference of thirty-six miles, which the ship in very fair weather could run in three hours, the time the mail train took by land from Falmouth to Plymouth. But it must be remembered that these calculations were based on the presumption of fair weather in the Channel; the time taken by the vessel in making the distance in bad weather might be six hours instead of three, whereas the

  927
  train service was always punctual. A saving of three hours in the despatch of telegrams was often of great importance to the merchant, and might sometimes be of the utmost importance to the Government. Finally as regarded railway accommodation, the chairman of the Cornwall Railway Company had written to him-—
  "You may state a special mail can be run over the Cornwall line from Falmouth to Plymouth in from 2 to 2¼ hours, and that at an interview had with Lord Stanley of Alderley, when he was Postmaster General, I was authorized to state on behalf of the Cornwall Railway and the associated Companies, that they were prepared to run a special mail from Falmouth to Paddington in 9 hours, and this can still be done."
  Thus a clear saving of time would be made. Without further detaining the House, he begged to thank hon. Members for the attention they had given him. and he hoped that the subject would receive from the noble Marquess the Postmaster General the consideration its importance deserved.
  MR. CRUM-EWINGsaid, he thought it a great been to the country at large that the mails should be landed at the first port reached. Men of business in the North were seriously inconvenienced, often being hardly able, for want of time, to answer properly by the next mails their letters from the West Indies. Whether Falmouth or Plymouth was to be preferred was a question for the Post Office, but certainly either was preferable to Southampton.
  MR. SCOURFIELDsaid, that if it was a question of a westerly port he represented a county (Pembrokeshire) which could offer a most excellent port more westerly than any other, and that was Milford Haven, the advantages of which were so notorious that it would be almost a work of supererogation to recount them. The great capabilities of Milford Haven and the close proximity of the Glamorganshire coal fields made that port a desirable one for the mails. The selection of Milford would involve no expenditure of public money, and the communications could be maintained with perfect regularity.
  MR. MORRISONsaid, that as representing Plymouth, he felt bound to say a few words in reply to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Falmouth (Mr. R. N. Fowler), but he would respectfully suggest to the House that, as this was a question which involved so many matters of minute detail, it rather
  928
  came within the province of the Executive Government or of some small body, such as a Committee of that House; and on behalf of Plymouth he had to express the perfect readiness of his constituents to face any such investigation. By the change in the mails from Southampton to Plymouth a great gain in point of time had been effected, especially in the case of the northern towns, and the extra expense had been very slight indeed. He was not prepared to argue at any length against the claims of Milford Haven, but he had always understood that the tide at that port ran too strongly to allow of its being a good packet station. Practically he believed the battle lay between Falmouth, Southampton, and Plymouth. Now, the advantages in point of time in landing at Plymouth were very great. The conclusion arrived at by the Post Office authorities with regard to the saving of time to the merchants of London by the landing of the mails at Plymouth instead of Southampton was that it would only amount to three hours. That, of course, was something. In regard, however, to the northern towns the gain was very much greater, because the mails might branch off from Bristol and be sent direct to their destinations, instead of being forwarded through London. This estimate, however, was based purely upon calculations from the time tables and similar sources, and took no account of contingencies which might arise from fogs and arrivals at night. It should be remembered that from the West Indies to the Channel it was all plain sailing, and that the danger lay almost solely in the Channel, and that danger was increased by every twenty miles added to the navigation of the Channel, in addition to the extra chances of detention by fogs. The approach to the port of Southampton also, by the Needles, was so dangerous that few ships cared to enter the passage at night without securing the services of a pilot, and some vessels even preferred to go round the Isle of Wight and approach the port by way of Spithead. The position of the Eddystone lighthouse seemed of itself to point out Plymouth as a great mail packet station, for when a ship had once made the Eddystone light it could make its way to Plymouth harbour by compass in the darkest night. The hon. Member for Falmouth in referring to the arrival of the Tasmanian

  929
  last year had stated that if that vessel had put in at Falmouth the mails could have been despatched by the ordinary train, but, that by proceeding to Plymouth, although the passage was a fair one, they had to be forwarded by special train. It was true that such a thing might happen in a single instance; but if the vessels put in at Falmouth it would also frequently happen that the ordinary train would have left, and the mails would have to be forwarded by special train over sixty extra miles of railway. Moreover, he was informed that, on the occasion referred to by the hon. Gentleman, the Tasmanian had to make her way up the Channel not in fair weather, but in a heavy gale, and that, owing to the number of merchant vessels that had sought refuge at Falmouth, it would have been impossible for the Tasmanian to make her way into Falmouth harbour at all. The hon. Gentleman in urging the claims of Falmouth had stated that the difference in sea passage between that port and Plymouth was thirty-six miles. The hon. Gentleman had taken his measurement from a point just six miles south of the Lizard, but in dark weather ships kept as far from the Lizard as they could. The hon. Gentleman had also taken the distance as marked in the map, as Falmouth people generally did; but as a matter of fact it was necessary for ships passing by the Lizard into Falmouth harbour to make a wide circuit in order to avoid the Manacles Rock. Casualties had occurred at Falmouth through ships dragging their anchors, but those that had occurred inside Plymouth Breakwater were traceable to bad ground tackle, for which the port was not to blame. Falmouth was a great calling place, and the harbour often crowded, which made the handling of large unwieldy steamers a dangerous operation; and, though Plymouth was often crowded, it had the inestimable advantage of two entrances, which were so easy to navigate that vessels often came in without pilots. While the landing of the mails at Falmouth occupied twenty-five minutes, it would only occupy twelve minutes at Plymouth. An objection to Falmouth was the absence of dock accommodation. There was a magnificent scheme for Falmouth docks, but as yet they were castles in the air. Plymouth, on the other hand, had splendid docks, and one of the finest graving docks in
  930
  the world. Again, a glance at the map showed that, while ships coming up the Channel would make a straight course to Plymouth, Falmouth was out of the way, and what might be gained by the speed of the railway from Falmouth to Plymouth was lost by the detour that had to be made, first at sea and then by the railway, which to some extent followed the curve of the bay. Although the chairman of the railway company said the distance could be run in two hours and a-quarter, the express trains took three hours. This matter had not been decided in a hurry. It first came under the consideration of Lord Stanley of Alderley, and the late Government displayed great care and assiduity in determining it; and no good reason had been adduced for interfering with an experiment which had been tried for two years with the most perfect success.
  MR. BROGDENsaid, he knew many West India merchants felt strongly that the time had conic for the selection of a western port for the arrival and departure of the mails; and, although he might be benefited indirectly by the choice of Milford, he could admit its superior claims. But he thought Falmouth possessed some advantages which other ports did not. The expense of removal from (Southampton would soon be recouped in the saving of dues and coaling.
  MR. RUSSELL GURNEYsaid, that the further this discussion went the more the House must be convinced that this was not the proper arena for its discussion; it was utterly impossible for a House constituted as that to arrive at any satisfactory conclusion from the conflicting accounts they had received from Members for the different localities interested in the matter. From the Notice on the Paper he had come prepared for a triangular duel, but he had not expected to see a quadrangular duel, as it had now turned out to be. At the same time, if they were to judge by the facility of obtaining coals, he must say that Milford Haven had a good claim as compared with Falmouth. He did not mean to enter into the discussion at any length; but, after the observations which had been addressed to the House as to the merits of different ports, he should scarcely be doing justice to his constituents if he did not say a word in favour of Southampton, especially when

  931
  he had heard an hon. Gentleman opposite remark that he trusted the House would not listen to anything in favour of Southampton, as it must proceed from selfishness and no other motive. He could not help expressing his surprise in hearing this matter discussed that no reference should have been made to a most important Post Office Return-which had been laid upon the table, and which threw a good deal of light on this question. The hon. Member who had referred to the great benefits derived by Glasgow from the change to Plymouth (Mr. Crum-Ewing) could scarcely have looked at the document to which he (Mr. Russell Gurney) alluded, for if he had he would have seen that of thirty-three voyages made under the new system, in twenty-four there had been in Glasgow neither gain nor loss; and of the remaining nine voyages in four cases there was a gain by landing at Plymouth, and in five cases there was a loss. The gain that had recently been derived by Scotland and the northern towns had not resulted from the landing of the mails at Plymouth, but from the change that had been introduced by the sorting of the letters on board, and then despatching them by the cross mails, instead of sending them up to London. If the same plan had been adopted and the letters had been sent through Basingstoke instead of going up to London the northern towns would have gained more by having the mails landed at Southampton than at Plymouth. The northern towns were very important, but London was of even more importance, as, in fact, three-fourths of the correspondence came to London. "With respect to London there was an earlier delivery by landing at Plymouth in one case only out of the whole thirty-three, in nineteen cases there was no gain and no loss, and in no less than thirteen the mails would have been delivered sooner if Southampton had remained the port of landing. It was more important to look to the results of actual experience during the last two years than to the predictions of hon. Gentlemen as to what would be the case in future. The House had been told of the dangers of coming up the Channel, and the delays likely to occur in consequence of fogs. But captains of ships from the West Indies with whom he had been in communication had implored him to use whatever influence he had to keep them from enter-
  932
  ing the port of Falmouth, or standing off that port, in consequence of the fogs which prevailed there; and the hon. Member for Plymouth (Mr. Morrison) had admitted that in no case had there been a delay in consequence of fogs when Southampton was the port. In his opinion the best thing that could be done, and that from which the most satisfactory results could be obtained. would be to have an official inquiry.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, it would perhaps be expected of him that he should address a few words to the House on this subject, though he was sure the speeches which they had heard would convince the House, if of nothing else, at any rate of this, that the House of Commons was not the place in which a question like this, full of technical details, could be advantageously discussed. Although the Notice of the hon. Member for Falmouth (Mr. R. N. Fowler) referred to the questions both of embarking and landing the mails at a western port, the speeches which had been delivered by hon. Gentlemen dealt almost exclusively with the place for landing them. When the question was last tinder the consideration of the Treasury and the Post Office, it was ascertained to the satisfaction of those Departments that there would be decidedly no advantage in embarking the mails at a more western port than Southampton; and, therefore, he might confine his observations to the subject of landing the mails. As to the question between Plymouth and Southampton, he was quite aware that the arrangement now in force was made as an experiment. He was not sure whether any definite period had been fixed upon for the duration of the experiment; but when it had been tried for a sufficient time to test its general working, it would be the duty of the Department over which he presided to come to a final decision on the subject. If the present systems were not found satisfactory, the mails would return to Southampton. The Notice of the hon. Member for Falmouth, as he understood it, referred chiefly to the question between Plymouth and Falmouth, and the advantages of those two ports had been ably urged in that House by their respective advocates. This was not the first occasion by many on which that question had been considered, and considered very carefully.

  933
  It had been so considered by Lord Stanley of Alderley, and also by the Duke of Montrose; and after what was, as far as he could judge, a perfectly impartial investigation of the merits of these two ports, in 1867 the decision come to was that Plymouth should be the port selected for making the experiment. He was not aware that there had since been any change in the circumstances, and for himself he did not see any good reason for now altering what was then settled, and adopting Falmouth. The Post Office had ascertained, by consultation with the Royal Mail Company, which must be admitted to be competent to give information on the matter, that they were not prepared to allow more than three hours' steaming as the difference between Plymouth and Falmouth. And it was also ascertained that the railway journey between those two places would occupy only two hours and a-quarter. In addition to that, there was this very great objection—that there existed only a single line of rails between Falmouth and Plymouth, which it was thought would offer a. serious impediment to the running of special trains. In conclusion, he could not hold out any assurance on the part of the Government that the present arrangement would be altered.
  MR. EASTWICKsaid, he rose to support the views of his hon. Colleague (Mr. R. N. Fowler). He could not at all agree with the noble Lord the Postmaster General, or with the right hon. and learned Member who preceded him (Mr. Russell Gurney), that that House was not a proper place for the discussion of the question. He could not see why a Committee of that House was unfit to consider the subject. Questions affecting postal conventions were referred to such a tribunal, as were also the most intricate questions of railway engineering, and why should not a question like the present one be so referred? He thought the whole gist of the question lay in a sentence which occurred in a Report that had been referred to by his hon. Colleague—he meant the Report of the Commission presided over by Sir James Gordon, in 1840. It was there said—"If we had found a railroad as far as the Land's End and a harbour there we should have selected it." Now, what did that mean? it meant that communication by rail was so superior in point
  934
  of certainty and celerity over communication by sea, that the former ought to be adopted wherever it possibly could be. The Commission could not find a harbour at the Land's End, but they found one near the Lizard, which, for all practical purposes, was to the mariner the real laud's end of England. He himself had made the homeward voyage from South America and the West Indies, and, having constantly examined the charts, he knew that vessels coming from those parts made a wide circuit to the west. The Lizard, therefore, was the point winch all vessels coming from the south or from the west endeavoured to make; and the Lizard was within seventeen miles of Falmouth, the advantages of which, as a port, were undeniable. How great those advantages were was shown by the fact that, though the railway from Southampton to London was opened in May, 1840, it was not, till ten years after—not till 1850—that Falmouth was entirely disestablished as a mail packet station. He felt certain that if there had been a railway through Cornwall to Falmouth, at the time when the Commissioners made their Report, that port would have been chosen for the dispatch and arrival of the mails in question. A railway now existed in Cornwall, and though the line was now single it might soon become a double one. Moreover, there were now admirable docks, with a railway carried down to the very water's edge; and, therefore, the time had come when Falmouth should be restored to the position to which its natural advantages entitled it as the great south-western port of England. By such an arrangement, a great acceleration of the delivery of letters would be obtained, not only in London, but also in Bristol, Liverpool, Glasgow, and other great commercial cities. The distance by sea from Falmouth to Southampton was 180 miles, or eighteen hours, and to this must be added two and a-half hours of rail, making a total of twenty and a-half hours. Thus, even allowing ten hours for an express train from Falmouth to London, there would be a gain often and a-half hours on this route over that by Southampton. But from Falmouth to Bristol by Exeter was only six and a-half hours, and from Falmouth to Liverpool and Glasgow, by the same route, only eleven and three-quarter and

  935
  seventeen and a-quarter hours; and, supposing the letters to be sorted in the steamer or the train, there was no reason why they should not reach Glasgow three hours before they now reached London. So much for the Southampton route; and he had to thank the hon. Member for Plymouth for the arguments he had used against it. But some of those arguments were applicable in favour of the Falmouth route against that by Ply-mouth. He would not dispute with the hon. Member whether the distance from Falmouth, to Plymouth by sea was thirty or thirty-five miles, but supposing it to be only twenty, still, there were the same dangers of fog and storm over those twenty miles, as over the longer distance. As to the journey by rail from Falmouth to Plymouth occupying three hours, the distance between the two places was only sixty miles, which might surely be travelled by express train in two hours. Thus, valuable time would be saved by the Falmouth route; and as most of the important communications of the great mercantile houses were sent by telegraph, still further advantage would thus be gained by the adoption of that route. Again, Ply-mouth was a most unsatisfactory port for the landing of the mails; and the Lords of the Admiralty, in their official reply to the Post Office, of the 13th of April, 1867, stated, that it would take two hours to land the mails there. Those two hours had to be added to the three hours lost by sea in going to Plymouth instead of to Falmouth. He would cite another testimony against the port of Plymouth, and that was the memorial of the Union Steam Shipping Company, of March. 1866, which says—
  "With regard to the harbour of Plymouth, it is scarcely necessary to state that, in rough weather, we have had great difficulty and delay in landing and shipping the mails; and that instances have occurred when it has been impossible for the ship to communicate with the shore."
  Before concluding, he must add a few words as to the great natural advantages of Falmouth as a port. It was most accessible; there was no necessity of employing a pilot in entering it, as was proved by the numerous memorials which had been presented against compulsory pilotage with regard to it; and it was a mistake to suppose that it was necessary to take a wide circuit in making for it. Long experience proved that the Mana-
  936
  cles—which had been referred to as a source of danger to vessels approaching Falmouth—in no way interfered with safe access to its excellent harbour. In. the 140 years during which the mail packets sailed from Falmouth there had never been an instance of such a vessel having been wrecked upon the Manacles. He thought the whole matter ought to be referred to a Select Committee; and he regretted that his hon. Colleague had not concluded with a Resolution to that effect. Should the subject not meet with proper attention from the Government, he should himself move for a Select Committee to inquire into the question.
  MR. J. D. LEWISsaid, he must dissent from the statement that there had not been a wreck on the Manacles for 140 years while Falmouth had the mails.
  MR. STONEsaid, that his hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth (Mr. Morrison) was perfectly correct in his statement that the landing of the mails at Plymouth occupied, on the average, only twelve minutes.

RAILWAYS—THE ABERGELE ACCIDENT.

  QUESTIONS. OBSERVATIONS.
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, he rose to call the attention of the President of the Board of Trade to the Report of Colonel Rich on the Abergele accident of last August, and to ask some Questions with regard to it. The subject was well worthy the attention not only of directors of railways, but of the public at large. On the present occasion he would not refer to the particular question which he had brought forward on a former evening respecting the possibility of preventing certain kinds of railway accidents by proper legislation; neither would he attempt to do away with that happy security in which the President of the Board of Trade indulged with regard not only to the conduct of directors of companies in general, but also as to the safety in travelling which the right hon. Gentleman himself enjoyed on their lines. All he would say on that point was that he hoped that from that dream of happy security the right hon. Gentleman might never be rudely aroused. For his own part, he had been less fortunate than the right hon. Gentleman, as he had been present at various accidents, including the fear-

  937
  ful one to which he was about to refer; and he might remark that those who, perhaps, proved the exceptions to the rule laid down by the right hon. Gentle-man regarded railway accidents with a certain feeling of dread. The Report made by Colonel Rich, the Government Inspector on the Abergele accident, contained several statements which gravely affected the directors not only of that particular line, but of all the railways throughout the country. One of these statements amounted to a charge of gross fraud perpetrated on the public. After going through the evidence, Colonel Rich said that blame attached to three servants of the company, but he went further than that and remarked—
  "So far the three men are seriously to blame, and their neglect his been the immediate cause of the accident; but men of that class cannot be expected to do their duties well if the railway com-panics do not give them the most convenient and best appliances, and do not look after them strictly and enforce their own regulations."
  Colonel Rich went on to say that the company had not complied with the rules respecting the inspection by the Government of their line before it was used, that, the very siding at the Llandulas station had been constructed subsequently to the railway being inspected, and that if it had been so inspected it would not have been pronounced fit for use. After stating that certain rules were made by the company for the guidance of their servants, Colonel Rich inserted in his Report the following paragraph:—
  "Lastly, I fear that it is only too true that the rules printed and issued by railway companies to their servants, and which are generally very good, are made principally with the object of being produced when accidents happen from the breach of them, and that the companies systematically allow many of them to be broken daily, without taking the slightest notice of the disobedience."
  If that were true it was a gross fraud on the public who travelled on the lines, and who believed that the company's rules would be enforced. He did not wish to conceal the fact that Colonel Rich said the management of this particular line was in general very good, but he added—
  "I desire to take advantage of the attention which this deplorable event will attract to bring before railway companies what I conceive to be the great defect in their systems, and which has led to most of the accidents I have inquired into —namely, a want of discipline and the enforcing of obedience to their own rules."
  938
  His present object was simply to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his attention had been directed to this very remarkable Report, whether he had called upon the company for an explanation of the extraordinary statements therein made; and, if not. whether it was his intention to do so?
  MR. DILLWYNsaid, that as a director of another large railway company, the Great Western, he could not allow the sweeping censures passed by Colonel Rich upon railway companies in general to remain uncontradicted. They were most serious censures, and ought to be met by all the railway companies at once. It would, indeed, be a gross fraud upon the public if it were true that the companies made rules in order to deceive the public, and for the purpose of being produced when an accident occurred. On behalf of the company to which he belonged, and in whose affairs he took an active part, he repudiated Colonel Rich's statement in the most unqualified terms.

AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. READ MR. READ, on rising to put a Question to the President of the Board of Trade on the subject of agricultural statistics, said, that some time ago his hon. Friend the Member for South Leicester- shire placed on the Paper a Motion to the effect that statistics should be collected every fifth year instead of annually. That Motion came on for discussion at a very late hour one evening, but the debate was adjourned, and the Order unfortunately becoming a lapsed one, no day was open for it before the 30th of June. His hon. Friend, in the course of his statement, objected to agricultural statistics on the ground of their expense, which amounted, he said, to a cost to the country of £20,000 per an- num. The acreage, as given, his hon. Friend admitted to be fairly accurate; but he was opposed to the constant worry to which the farmers were subjected, and expressed it to be his belief that if they were allowed a few years' rest they would be more willing to give information, and that the Returns would be furnished much more correctly. He, however, felt quite sure that the mere fact of the large increase in the acreage of wheat last year would be cited as a

  939
  proof that annual agricultural returns were necessary. We had, he believed, within two years experienced the greatest variation which we could have in the acreage of wheat. In 1867 there was a very low, and in 1868 a very large, acreage, but our experience of those years only served to show that the greatest extent of difference in acreage we were likely to have was 8 per cent, and an increase of acreage of 1 per cent would only give two days' consumption. What was the difference caused by the yield? One bushel per acre made a difference of 500,000 quarters; and taking the difference in the yield between a really good harvest and a really bad one at fourteen bushels per acre, or 7,000,000 quarters of wheat, it would amount to about our average importation, or 121 days' consumption. That difference might be produced in the yield, whereas the greatest difference which would be produced by the difference of acreage was 20 days' consumption. It was not so difficult, he might add, to guess the acreage as the yield, and the wonderful accuracy of the estimate given by Mr. Caird in The Times of 1850, showed how easy it was to ascertain the acreage. There were several important matters connected with the question, which ought, in his opinion, to be agreed upon before agricultural Returns could be expected to be of any great value. The average yield of this kingdom was estimated as low as twenty-six bushels per acre, but it had been put by an equally good authority as high as thirty-two bushels. Then the consumption of wheat had been put as low as five and a-half bushels and as high as eight bushels per head. It was contended by some that in dear years there was a great economy in the consumption of bread by the poor; but he, on the contrary, maintained that in every dear year there was a larger consumption of bread by the poor, and for the following reason:—Let him suppose that a man earned only 15 s. a week, the average wages of a working man. If that man spent 10 s. on bread when wheat was very dear, he would naturally have but little left to spend on beef or other articles of consumption; whereas, if bread was very cheap, and he only spent. 6s. on it, he would have a much larger sum remaining to spend on meat, and the more meat he ate, the less bread he would require. He had been
  940
  informed on Saturday last, by a baker in Norwich, that flour was, this time last year, £1 a sack dearer than it was at present, and yet though there was, he believed, a slight increase in the prosperity of Norwich, the consumption of bread was now considerably less. When statisticians estimated the consumption, of bread by the poor, they entirely left out of consideration the fact that, when wheat was very cheap, there was an immense consumption of it by the farmer for his cattle, and also for malt, while there were other circumstances which must enter into the calculation which were beyond control. Hon. Members bad heard the evening before of there being five quarters in one year, but the fanners begun and finished, last year, two harvests in fifty-one weeks; and there were such things as good and bad harvests, as well as large and indifferent crops, for the best corn might be destroyed by a wet harvest. The farmers had, in his opinion, great cause to complain of certain statistics which were collected by the Government. He referred to the corn Returns, which were taken in 150 of the chief market towns in the kingdom. He made inquiry of the Board of Trade as to what corn was returned in the averages furnished, and he was informed, in reply, that it was the opinion of the Board, that none but English com came into the Returns. On the next Saturday, however, he went to the Norwich market and there made inquiries of the three principal dealers in corn as to their practice in making their Returns. The first told him that he returned everything he bought, including the foreign trade; the second that he never returned his foreign trade; and the third said that he believed he was liable to a penalty for not returning the grain which he bought from the merchant, but that he made it a rule never to make any return of that which he had not obtained direct from the grower. That man though he may have laid himself open to a penalty, was, he felt sure, right in equity, and he would ask the President of the Board of Trade to have the Returns made out only of that corn which was directly bought from the grower. Of all figures, those which dealt with agricultural statistics were, he believed, the most contradictory, if they were used without due consideration. From our live stock Returns Mr.

  941
  Caird made out that we derived from foreign sources one-fifth of the meat supply of this kingdom. His hon. Friend the Member for Bedford, in the excellent speech which he had made about a month ago, had placed the figures at one-twentieth, and he could not help thinking that he was right, and that Mr. Caird was wrong. The imperfect statistics which we had were. he might add, used to the disadvantage of the farmer. In l886. the statistics were taken in the month of March, and in 1867 in the month of July. The consequence was that an immense increase in the number of sheep was made to appear, because one Return was made before the lambs were born, and the other after. The gentlemen in Bradford, thereupon, acting upon the assumption that there were so many more sheep and pounds of wool, tried to pull down the price of wool, and for two or three months they succeeded. It was said that we must be worse off for meat than they wore in France, because in that country, with 37,000,000 people, they had 14,000,000 cattle, while in the United Kingdom we had 30,000,000 of population and only 9,000,000 of cattle. But it must be remembered that the cattle in France were chiefly milking cows and old working oxen, and were not to be compared in quality with our own. Then it was said in France 17,000,000 acres of wheat were cultivated annually, and in England only 4,000,000. But people who dwelt on this fact sometimes forgot that we grew twenty-eight bushels of wheat an acre, while in. France they only grew fourteen. He denied that these statistics were a guide to the farmers in their business. Farmers could not and ought not to be speculators. The small fanners must sell in order to realize their rent; and if the large farmers had sold their corn directly after harvest last year, taking-advantage of the high price, the result would have been to bring down the price, and instead of attending to their autumnal tillage and providing green crops which had saved their herds from starvation, they would have employed horses and men in delivering and thrashing corn. Well, then, these statistics were no guide to merchants, the majority of whom were not even aware of their existence. The merchants thought much more of the flying correspondence of The Times, of Mr. Caird's estimates,
  942
  and Mr. Lawes' experiments, and such reports as appeared in the Gardeners' Chronicle or the Mark Lane Express. They looked at the number of vessels afloat with corn cargoes; and when it was known that contracts for foreign corn were made three, four, or even six months in advance, it would be seen that the acreage of England had nothing to do with these speculations in corn. It was curious, but true, that it was of more importance to us to know the yield of corn in France than the yield at home. In the corn-growing districts of the two countries there was practically the same climate, and both were buyers in years of short crops. But there was this remarkable fact—that here one bushel per acre made a difference of 500,000 quarters, while in France it made a difference of 2,000,000 quarters; and that sometimes France sent us as little as 30,000 quarters of corn a year, and she had repeatedly sent over 2,000,000. The statistics of Ireland, which were collected annually, showed a gradual decline of cereals in that country. A similar decrease had occurred in Scotland, and was made equally clear by statistics which were returned at long intervals. According to statistics furnished by the Highland Agricultural Society, 243,000 acres of wheat were under cultivation in Scotland in 1857, while the Board of Trade Returns showed only 110,000 acres in 1867. Thus there was a wonderful decrease of no less than 133,000 acres during these ten years, and it now appeared that Norfolk grew 85,000 acres more of wheat than they did in the whole of Scotland. He had always advocated agricultural statistics if the country demanded them, but he did wish that they should be accurate, and should also be collected with as little trouble as possible. In a paper read by him last year before the statistical department of the British Association, he said—
  "I question the use of those Returns beyond strictly statistical purposes. The yearly variation in the acreage of crops will not cause anything like the difference in the amount of wheat grown as a week's rain or a summer night's frost, and I do not believe that estimates of the yield of the growing crops, even if given by farmers, can ever be thoroughly relied on. My own impression is, after the accuracy of the present Returns has been tested for a short series of years, Agricultural statistics need only be collected at given intervals, to be, in fact, a regular stock and crop census."
  He would now ask whether it was the intention of the Government, after the

  943
  present year, to continue the annual collection of Agricultural Statistics?
  MR. BRIGHT: Sir, the speech of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Read) has given us some interesting facts; but I do not know exactly to what they lead with regard to the Question he has put to me. I should judge that his argument was rather against agricultural statistics at all, because his object seemed to be to show that they are not of much use to his friends connected with the land, and do not enable the farmers to decide when they shall buy, sell, or speculate. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the statistics collected by the Government are, and must necessarily be, a very bad guide for the weekly or monthly transactions of persons engaged in trade. That is true of statistics with respect to cotton, as well as of statistics respecting corn or cattle. I know that the statistics the cotton trade get from the brokers in Liverpool from week to week are more to be relied upon than anything that can be furnished to them by the Government. I say, that after a long experience, I believe that the efforts now made to help the transactions of persons in the cotton trade by statistics are efforts of no value. Probably, however, if we take a wider view and look to the desirableness of having information from year to year of the progress of manufactures and agriculture, then it may be important to have those statistics, and there is certainly no intention on the part of the Government to discontinue the collection of agricultural statistics after the present year. The hon. Gentleman was not, perhaps, in the House when Mr. Caird brought forward this question some years ago. The Government of the day was not favourable to his Motion, and. as I recollect, the Motion for agricultural statistics was carried contrary to the opposition of the Government. I believe that the hon. Gentleman himself is not more intelligent on the question of agriculture, or was more the friend of agriculturists, than Mr. Caird. The proposal for the collection of these statistics was. therefore, introduced to the House on very high authority; it was supported by a majority of Members sitting on both sides of the House; it was enforced upon the Board of Trade of that time, and the Board of Trade since then had endeavoured, through many difficulties, to obtain the information required. I am
  944
  surprised at one phrase that has been used by the hon. Gentleman. He said this incessant annual application to the farmers was a subject of irritation and even of torment. That was a very strong phrase for such a matter. It has not been found a subject of irritation to farmers in Scotland. They are, perhaps, as intelligent as those in England, and many of them farm as extensively. In Ireland the statistics have been collected for many years with much greater minuteness than either in England or Scotland, and we have had no complaint from the farmers of Ireland respecting any difficulty in the matter. I am of opinion that as the farmers of England become a little more accustomed to giving the facts required they will give them with less unwillingness, and that from year to year the collection will be more accurate, and, as far as those statistics can be useful at all, they will be more useful. It is true that the effect of the seasons of rain at a proper time, or sunshine at a proper time, is much greater than the effect produced by the difference of acreage. But that fact was known at the time when Mr. Caird proposed to collect the statistics and when the Board of Trade undertook the collection of them. It does not follow, however, that the question of acreage is not important because it is not so important as the question of the seasons. There is a universal belief, not only in this country, but in almost every country in the world, that it is of great advantage that all the facts connected with the industry and production of the country should, as far as possible, be known; and it would be foolish for us to shut ourselves out from a source of information which, though probably of no great advantage in guiding the market transactions of farmers, must be of great importance to thoughtful men who look from year to year at the progress of the country. The question, therefore, of discontinuing these Returns has not been mooted by the Government, and I hope, with the assistance of the hon. Gentleman's friends, that they will become more accurate and more valuable from year to year. The hon. Member for West Essex (Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson) has asked a Question about the Report of the gentleman sent down to investigate the cause of the Abergele accident, and it would be well if the hon. Member had previously stated what he would ask me about. The main

  945
  portion of his observations seemed to bear upon a paragraph in the Report, which I do very much regret should have appeared in that Report at all, because, in common with the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) I think it is a paragraph that is not just to the railway to which it refers, and not just to any body of directors managing any railway in the kingdom. The paragraph is this—
  "Lastly, I fear time it is only too true that the rules printed and issued by railway companies to their servants, and which are generally very good, are made principally with the object of being produced when accidents happen from the breach of them, and that the companies systematically allow many of them to be broken daily, without taking the slightest notice of the disobedience."
  Now, it is impossible for any person to travel in the kingdom without observing the sobriety, steadiness, the intelligence and activity of the servants of the railway companies. Therefore, to impute that there is a system of intentional neglect on their part is a charge against them and the railway companies which, I think, ought not to have been made, and which, probably, was made by the gentleman who drew up the Report under feelings of great excitement produced by the terrific accident he was sent to investigate. I will tell the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Essex what the Board of Trade has done. The Report contains a paragraph to the effect that if the block telegraph system had been in use and strictly carried out the accident could not have occurred. According to the block system the line is divided into portions, and a train is not allowed to enter any portion until by the telegraph it is known that the preceding train has passed out of it. That regulation was found exceedingly useful, and the Board of Trade, thinking it was one which ought to be universally adopted, has, in consequence of the accident, sent to all the railway companies in the kingdom a circular with a statement of several accidents which clearly might have been prevented if the block system had been established on the lines where they occurred. The circular was intended, not to menace railway directors with any intention on the part of the Government to propose legislation, but for the purpose of bringing the subject under their consideration, in the belief that they were anxious that their lines should be worked safely. When the answers to the circular come in, I hope the result will be to put a stop to some of the risks
  946
  to which passengers are now subject. I think it is wise not to entertain exaggerated views in consequence of the accident referred to, and I also think that people are not just to railway directors and servants, who I feel every day I travel are entitled to more credit than they receive for their care and attention.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Committee deferred till Monday next.

METROPOLITAN' POOR ACT (1867) AMENDMENT BILL— [BILL 53.]
(Mr. Goschen, Mr. Arthur Peel, Mr. Ayrton.)
METROPOLITAN' POOR ACT (1867) AMENDMENT BILL— [BILL 53.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. GOSCHEN MR. GOSCHEN, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, it might appear that he ought to apologize for troubling the House at this period of the Session with a Bill relating to metropolitan pauperism, but he thought the House would not consider metropolitan pauperism to be a matter of mere local interest, for its dimensions were so great and its character such as to make it a subject which ought to occupy the most serious attention of Parliament. Every day showed that in London they had not to deal with the same kind of pauperism as was to be found elsewhere. To a great extent it was not what he might call indigenous, but was attracted from various parts of the country to the metropolis, where it remained as a burden on the rate-payers. Every investigation into the character of the inmates of the workhouses and of the out-door poor in London proved that a vast proportion of them did not properly belong to the pauper classes, but might be said to be composed of the wrecks of society. People of all stations who were broken down congregated into London, and among the inmates of the London workhouses there would be found, not only the poor out of employ, but a special class, which it was most difficult to deal with. It had already been stated in the course of the Session that the increase of paupers in the metropolis had been beyond all comparison greater than anywhere else. During the last three years there had been an increase of 45 per cent in the number of paupers in the metropolis, and an increase also of 45 per cent in the expenditure. The paupers had increased from

  947
  100,000 to 140,000 or 150,000, and the expenditure had increased in the same ratio. In 1865 the public conscience was awakened by the statements made as to the crowded state of the metropolitan workhouses; but there were now in the workhouses which were then said to be overcrowded as many as between 4,000 and 5,000 additional inmates. The ratepayers had not only to bear the expense arising from the great increase of pauperism, bur had, unfortunately at the same time, been called on to re-construct the workhouses to a certain extent. The House would remember the circumstances under which the Bill brought in by the right hon. Member for Oxford University (Mr. Gathorne Hardy) was passed. For some time previously attention had been called to the defective state of the workhouses in London, and it was thought necessary that great changes should be made. In 1864 a Committee, which had sat from 1861, pointed out the necessity of separating various classes of paupers from the general body, and in 1867 the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford University met with the consent of both sides of the House, and received considerable sanction from public opinion. Two years had elapsed, and bills were beginning to run up in consequence of the re-construction of the workhouses, which was commenced at the time he had mentioned. He would frankly admit that the opinion of the public seemed to have somewhat changed now that they were called on to pay the account, but the matter must be looked fairly in the face; and they must ask themselves whether or not it was necessary that the re-construction of the workhouses should have been entered on. If it were necessary, it must be completed, and if it were not necessary, the works must be stopped. The Bill of the right hon. Gentleman proceeded on the basis of recognizing the necessity for further accommodation, while at the same time the opportunity was to be utilized for the purpose of securing a further classification of paupers. The treatment of the sick was not deemed to be satisfactory, and it was thought that the best way to provide additional accommodation was to take the sick from the workhouses and place them in infirmaries. That was the leading principle of the right hon. Gentleman's Bill. There was to be a separation of all the classes. Provision was to be made for
  948
  fever patients, and children were to be put, as far as possible, into district schools. To secure separation of classes power was given to amalgamate parishes or unions into districts; and to take the sick from the various workhouses in such a district and put them in one infirmary. But there were other provisions in the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman. It contained provisions as to dispensaries: provided for further uniformity in management by repealing certain local Acts, placing the relief of the poor where there were local Acts on the same looting as it was elsewhere; and it also gave power to the Poor Law Board to combine parishes into unions, though under local Acts, without the consent of the guardians. The Bill now before the House was to amend and enlarge that Act in certain particulars. It would certainly be interesting to the metropolis to learn briefly what had been done under the Act of the right hon. Gentleman. That Act proceeded on a double basis—that it gave power to amalgamate unions or parishes for certain purposes, and it also gave power to amalgamate parishes, but not unions, for all purposes. As to that second point little had been done—only the parish of St. Martin's had been added to the Strand Union, and St. Anne's, Soho, to St. James's, Westminster. Further progress had not been made, owing to the opposition of the guardians to all amalgamation, whether for all or for partial purposes. He stated, as a fact, without wishing to comment on it, that the course of legislation had been in favour of amalgamation since 1834; Committees had also been in its favour: but little as yet had been done in the way of amalgamation, because the local authorities had uniformly resisted it. It was only by amalgamation that they could secure the classification of paupers. If any importance was attached to the separation of the various classes from each other—that the sick should be taken from the able-bodied, and that these should be separated from the infirm, so that they might deal properly with each class—if that was desirable—and he thought it most desirable—it could only be done by the enlargement of areas: it was towards the enlargement of areas that the legislation of late years had inclined, and he should be exceedingly sorry if that policy should be arrested. As regarded amalgamation for

  949
  partial purposes, greater progress had been made. The whole metropolis had been put into one district for the purpose of dealing with imbeciles and lunatics. It was considered by the House that this class should be withdrawn from workhouses altogether; the Metropolitan Asylums Board was constituted to deal with them; two asylums were ordered to be built, and were now in course of construction at Leavesden and Caterham. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that 2,000 lunatics had to be provided for; and the two asylums would contain accommodation for 3,000. It might be asked why go to this extravagance of providing for 8,000 when there were only 2,000 imbeciles to be accommodated? But there were actually 3,000 imbeciles in the workhouses, and it was felt they ought not to be left among the other inmates, which they must be where there was over-crowding in insufficient space. It was necessary that asylums should be built to contain 3,000 lunatics instead of 2,000, according to the statistics subsequently collected. There was an increase in the number of lunatics throughout the whole country, he believed, at the present; time; but, however that might be, the accommodation to be provided was not more than was positively required. That accounted for one excess on the estimates of the right hon. Gentleman for which he could not be held responsible. Then as regarded the cost—the estimate for 2,000 lunatics, at the rate of £50 per head, was £100,000; and with the actual increase in numbers it would be £150,000. But he was sorry to say the actual cost would be £280,000 instead of £150,000. It might be asked whence this excess? He spoke quite impartially—he thought the right hon. Gentleman had omitted the sites, which formed a serious item; because they had not only the market price to pay, but when they came to purchase the site of a hospital the market price was always considerably increased. Then, again, he was not sure that the right hon. Gentleman had considered the furniture. Several other items had also run up the estimates, and the actual cost per head would be £73 instead of £50. ["Hear, hear!"] His hon. Friend said "Hear, hear," but any man who built a house? now would certainly find the cost of building very much increased beyond what it would have been five or six years ago. The right hon. Gentle-
  950
  man had stated at the time that the calculations he gave were rough estimates, and probably he had taken as his basis the cost of other workhouses built five or ten years ago. If, then, the present estimates were too high, who was responsible? The position was this—the Metropolitan Asylum Board constructed these buildings under a certain control of the Poor Law Board. The Metropolitan Asylum Board consisted of sixty-five members, forty-five of whom were elected by the rate-payers, and, as they assured the Poor Law Board, they had done their very best to keep down the expenditure. They denied that there was any extravagance in their estimates. With regard next to the fever and smallpox hospitals there was also an increase on the estimate submitted to the House three years ago. The case in regard to the fever hospitals was this—there were three originally planned and projected—one at Stockwell, one at Homer-ton, and one at Hampstead. For these three fever hospitals and two small-pox hospitals the right hon. Gentleman calculated there would be 1,000 cases, and that the cost would be £70 a bed. But a fever hospital could not be constructed like an ordinary workhouse hospital. The rate-payers of the metropolis took great interest in the matter, and no one could have any desire either to exaggerate or under-rate the cost of these buildings. Was it necessary that the metropolis, with 3,000,000 of inhabitants, should have fever hospitals at all? He thought it was—that they were as necessary a part of our pauper system as any other; and it would be evidently economical in the long run that they should be able immediately to isolate all fever cases and treat them by themselves. That was the feeling of the House in 1867. As regarded fever hospitals, the position was that there were to have been three, but on re-consideration between the Metropolitan Asylums Board and the Poor Law Board, one had been dropped, at all events, for the present, and it was now thought that two, placed at the extreme ends of the metropolis, would be sufficient—one would be at Homerton, the other at Stockwell. If the third should be ultimately built, the experience gained in the others might be utilized in the third. Three sites had been purchased; at Hampstead the site would not be used at present. Each site cost £15,000; so that they

  951
  started with £45,000 for sites. For fever hospitals it was necessary to have plenty of room. It was necessary to build them in blocks, and to have separate administrative arrangements for the various classes of fever and small-pox eases, so that there might be as little risk of infection as possible. Altogether the arrangements for these fever hospitals were different from those of ordinary hospitals. He had taken great pains to cut down these estimates, and certain changes had been agreed to in deference to his desire for economy; but the medical gentlemen represented that they were responsible for the sanitary arrangements, and that there were certain sanitary rules which must not be infringed. If the three fever hospitals had been built the amount would have reached £210,000. He could not accurately state what the amount would be now that one hospital had been dropped. He had inquired what was the cost of the Government hospitals at Netley and Haslar, and the answer was that they had cost from £300 to £325 per bed, in- eluding all the furniture, fittings, bed- ding, and other necessaries. The cost of these hospitals had been enormous, but the cost of the fever hospitals would not reach £150 a bed. Provision had, moreover, been made in that estimate for additional space on the site for temporary structures in case of any emergency. The estimate of the right hon. Gentleman was for £70,000; but the actual expenditure would have amounted to £210,000. The next item in the List was for schools. The right hon. Gentleman's estimate made provision for 1,000 children in new schools at a cost of £40 per head, making £40,000, and the enlargement of existing schools was estimated at. £30,000 more, making a total of £70,000. When he (Mr. Goschen) came into Office he found that there were to be four new district schools —at Kensington, Paddington Finsbury, and one other place which he did not remember. Each of these schools was to hold between 500 and 600 children, and although the actual cost of the buildings was to be £30,000, yet, including the site, furniture, and fittings— which latter items led to the discrepancy in the estimates—each would cost a little more than £50,000, making a total of £210,000 to be spent on the schools, instead of £70,000, the estimate of the right hon. Gentleman. He did not carp
  952
  at the right hon. Gentleman's estimates, but merely put the facts before the House. They, therefore, started with a cost for lunatic asylums of £280,000, fever hospitals, £210,000, and £210,000 for the schools, making a total of £700,000 for these three classes of paupers. But the catalogue was not yet exhausted. There were also to be infirmaries for the sick. Six districts had been formed, and, speaking roundly, each of the district infirmaries would have accommodation for 500 sick, at a cost of between £40,000 and £50,000 each. There would thus be an item of £300,000 for separate infirmaries. The proposed enlargements of existing workhouses, and the cost of new workhouses amounted to £400,000, so that the total and, he must admit, frightful outlay, which stared the rate-payers in the face amounted to no less than £1,400,000, and this at a time when there was a great increase of expenditure in consequence of the increase of paupers in the metropolis. If he contrasted this proposed outlay with that, of previous years, it would be found that while the total amount expended since 1834, when the Poor Law Commission was issued, had been £1,500,000, plans had been formed during the last three years for an expenditure of £1,400,000, being nearly as much as in the whole thirty years before. It was only fair to remember, however, that there were arrears to be made up for many years, during which the local authorities had allowed things to go on in a way which public opinion did not sanction when its existence was ascertained, and that a good deal of re-construction was necessary. The figures in question had startled him as well as the House, and he had carefully examined the extent of the present accommodation. He would first examine the arguments in favour of these separate infirmaries. They only made about one-fourth of the proposed additional expense, yet they gave rise to more opposition than any other part of the expenditure. They were opposed on different grounds. It was said by some that the sick ought to be treated at their own homes; by others, that it was wrong to bring a large number of the sick poor together, because the result would only be to breed disease. The guardians of many parishes objected to separate infirmaries, where the poor would be with- drawn from their control, while the rate- payers, on their part, objected to the in-

  953
  creased expense. No doubt, it would he very desirable that the poor should be treated in their own homes, if it were possible; but he had already remarked now great was the difference between the metropolitan poor and those of country districts. A vast number of the London poor had no homes at all, and to attempt to treat disease in such homes as large numbers had would be a perfect mockery; they all knew the state of overcrowding in many metropolitan districts, and the health of the poor generally would be compromised if that were attempted, except in a few eases. Many of the diseases of the metropolitan poor were, indeed, peculiarly unsuited to treatment at home. But it was said that a dispensary system existed in Ireland, and why not introduce it in London. In Ireland, however, the number of in-door sick bore an enormous proportion to the out-door paupers. There were only 18,000 out-door paupers in Ireland, and of the number of in-door paupers not less than 18,000 were sick. The difficulty in London had turned upon the question whether the sick should be attended to at the medical officer's surgery or in a dispensary. A great many medical officers said it was more convenient that the sick should attend at their surgery, and, as the guardians of many unions agreed with them, there was great resistance, except in four or five cases, on the part of the guardians to the establishment of dispensaries, partly on the ground of expense and partly because of the difficulty of finding a suitable site. The right hon. Gentleman's Bill required that a dispensary committee should be formed, it being thought better that the guardians should elect a committee to attend to the dispensary. Guardians opposed every arrangement under which they were likely to lose any portion of their authority, and accordingly they opposed the establishment of dispensary committees. It was useless to attempt to force guardians to establish dispensary committees if they were determined not to do so, for the only power which the Poor Law Board possessed was that of proceeding by mandamus. If, therefore, these dispensaries were to be established at all, it must be by interesting the guardians in them; and the Bill accordingly proposed to make the payment of the medical officers' salaries from the common fund dependent on the establishment of
  954
  these dispensaries. Nothing could be worse than attempting to exercise powers which were ostensibly conferred, but which lacked the machinery requisite to carry them out; it was far better, if possible, to bring about co-operation between the guardians and the Poor Law-Board; and in the ease of schools this had been happily accomplished by means of a process similar to that which the Bill now recommended, 8,000 children being now in separate schools, and only 2,000 in the workhouse schools, a result duo to the fact that the expenses of children in district schools were paid out of the common poor fund of the whole metropolis, and not out of the fund of the particular locality. As regarded hospitals, there were some authorities who maintained that to crowd large numbers of persons suffering from the same diseases into hospitals was exceeding injurious. Paupers, however, were unlike hospital patients generally, seeing that the majority of those suffering were old and infirm, and had not among them an equal proportion of contagious and acute diseases. Objections were made on the score of distance, which he thought were very often pushed to extremes. Bearing in mind, that among the 30,000 persons in the workhouses there were 12,000 sick, it was impossible to provide in London hospital accommodation sufficient for that number in the vicinity of the exact localities from which they came. Guardians fancied that if paupers were sent to any distance for treatment control over them was lost, and they looked upon it as a hardship if a pauper were removed even three or four miles—say the distance of the City from St. George's, Hanover Square. Of course, if large buildings were sought to be established in localities already crowded the cost must be proportionate, and he might mention that in the Holborn Union it had been actually proposed to buy a piece of land for £25,000 rather than fall in with a scheme under which, at much less cost, the buildings might have been erected at a distance of four or five miles. No doubt the expenditure upon infirmaries was a matter upon which the rate-payers would have a great deal to say. And he confessed that when the total expenditure of £1,400,000 was brought before him he was startled, for previously the figures had been taken, not in the

  955
  aggregate but dealing with each ease upon its own merits. It must be remembered, however, that London contained a population of 3,000,000, and that the annual rateable value of its property was £17,000,000. so that if the £1,400,000 required were raised in the way of an annuity, the burden would not be intolerable. But was this expenditure really necessary? Desiring to test the manner in which the estimates had been prepared, and to ascertain the actual amount of existing workhouse accommodation as compared with the requirements, he caused a circular to be issued to the master of each workhouse requiring a Return as to the numbers on a given night. They were directed to fill it up with information under the various heads. These made inquiry as to the number of beds in the workhouse, the total cubic space in each ward, the number of inmates on the particular night, and the different classes to which they belonged—how many sick, how many aged and infirm, and how many able-bodied. To the first inquiry it was answered that, without reference to children who were in separate schools, the total number of beds was 27,840, while of persons sleeping in them there were 28,640. 156 persons slept on the floor. Beds also were made up in the oakum-rooms, dining-rooms, and other places, including twenty-five beds in corridors and twenty in a passage. The result, therefore, showed that on the night in question there was not a single spare bed in the workhouses of the metropolis, and, further, that the workhouses contained more inmates than they could properly hold. As to cubic spare the House would remember that some few years ago this subject- was investigated by the Cubic Space Committee, and a certain minimum was laid down as essential. Tested by the standard, it was found that, for the total number of inmates, there was a deficiency of cubic space-amounting to 2,200,000 cubic feet—equal to the space that would be required for 4,500 inmates. That number of persons accordingly was in excess of the proper number of inmates, and this was not extraordinary, considering that in the last two or three years the number of in-door paupers had increased to about that extent. These facts showed that the time had fully come for taking decided steps to increase the existing
  956
  workhouse accommodation. He was not. in favour of providing for future requirements, because he did not believe the recent increase in pauperism would continue progressing. He did not like to believe that it could not be reduced, and when emergencies arose they might be met by erecting temporary buildings or by hiring others. It was clear, however, that under existing arrangements the overcrowding in workhouses was enormous, and the result was that it was impossible that any classification of the paupers could be maintained. If there were a few beds to spare in an able-bodied ward, children had to be put into them, and even the sick and infirm had to be provided for in a similar manner. This was a very great evil, for one most important method of keeping down pauperism was to maintain an efficient classification of the paupers. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gathorne Hardy) had endeavoured to extend classification in the workhouses, and he felt assured that the House would be prepared to support further efforts in that direction. To show what was the present state of the classification in London, he would just quote a couple of instances from Returns furnished by the masters of the workhouses, not made with any view to sensational effect, but merely recording actual facts. In one ward in the Bermondsey Union, on the occasion of the Return he referred to, there were six imbeciles, two able-bodied adults, four children between the ages of seven and fifteen, and twelve under seven years of age. Here, therefore, were children, imbeciles, adults, and sick, all sleeping in the same room. This was a state of things which he ventured to think was intolerable. In another ward there were two healthy adults, five boys under fifteen, and two imbeciles. A great deal had been said about the contamination of workhouses, and there was much truth in what had been said, but how could they expect a better state of things when the classification could not be kept up? In another, which was an infirmary ward, there was one fever, one lying-in patient, one imbecile, and fourteen ordinary sick. It was evident from the facts to which he had adverted that it was impossible for the matter to be left by the House where it stood at present, and that the efforts made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite must be continued

  957
  in order to secure that classification which was necessary both for health and on account of other equally important considerations. It was by means of amalgamation alone that such results could be obtained, and by the same means economy of expenditure and simplicity of administration would be secured. By uniting three or four workhouses together their various inmates might be classified, and each class provided for in one of the houses, instead of separate buildings being erected for the accommodation of certain classes whom it was not desirable to allow to communicate with the other classes. He admitted that some opposition to an amalgamation scheme might be expected from the local authorities, who were adverse to such a plan, and the arrangements would therefore be difficult to effect unless he was supported by that House; but he thought that the general advantage to the public at large would be so great that the House would be inclined to disregard such opposition. It was agreed by most persons that the sick ought to be treated separately, and also that children ought to be treated separately. It might be desirable also to treat separately a certain class of the able-bodied, so that they might be brought under a different discipline. The differences in the sizes of the unions in London, in their rateable value in the amount of pauperism, and in every respect, struck the eye at once. Great progress might be made in the direction of amalgamation without having any unwieldly union, or one so great as some of the existing unions. The local authorities had strongly urged that a large population could not be managed by one Board of Guardians. Now, hon. Members who represented large towns could give them an answer on that point. The parish of Liverpool was far larger than any single union in the metropolis. Birmingham and Manchester dealt with their poor in largo masses. By carrying out tin's system of amalgamation, and uniting for all purposes the various parishes now in the sick asylum districts, at least eighteen Boards of various kinds might be abolished. This would effect a great reduction in the cost of administration. Moreover, they would thereby get rid of many sick asylum Boards, and of some school district and other intermediate Boards. He could enumerate many other advantages that would arise from
  958
  the proposed amalgamation; but he had better mention at once the advantage on the score of economy. As regarded two of the sick asylum districts, it would be possible by classifying the paupers in the workhouses to get rid of those districts without the necessity of any fresh building. In those two districts, therefore a saving of £100,000 would be effected. In two other districts it would be necessary not to raise a fresh building, but only to enlarge existing buildings; and that enlargement could be effected at a cost of £20,000 instead of £50,000 or £60,000, the sum required for each of the new buildings. By the plan therefore that he proposed he believed it would be possible to save £200,000 upon these infirmaries, and at the same time to secure that classification which was so desirable. One of the fever hospitals had already been suspended, and thereby £50,000 more possibly would be saved. On the question of schools his plan would save £100,000. It would be recollected that £210,000 had been asked for building new schools. [Mr. GATHORNE HARDY: How many children are there?] There were 600 children in Kensington, 500 in Paddington, 700 in St. Pancras, and 600 in Finsbury, making, with some others, about 3,000 children. These district schools, taken by themselves, were necessary; but looking at them as a whole he believed they would be able to save two schools out of the five schools. Two or three of these schools were at present full, because they were accommodating children from other unions that were building schools; but when these were built there would be a surplus accommodation. If the guardians, instead of opposing this plan of amalgamation, would co-operate with the Poor Law Board, he felt confident that two of these schools might be saved. Such a saving would not be at all desirable if it were to be effected by keeping the children in the workhouses. That must not be done; but. if it were found that by a re-arrangement of the school districts a large saving of money might be effected for the metropolis, he did not see why the guardians should oppose it for the sake of keeping the matter in their own hands, in this case, as in others, it was by enlarging their areas that a saving could be effected. His plan saved all the margins, and utilized to the utmost all existing accommoda-

  959
  tions. That would be felt in various places, and the saving in that respect in six schools would be 500, thereby saving: school buildings for that number; and as to future contingencies they need not much trouble themselves because he believed the maximum, of increase had been reached, and that they need not go beyond providing for present necessities. The economy made possible by amalgamation would be from £400,000 to £450,000; but he wished at the same time it should be clearly understood that he would not incur the responsibility for stopping that system of separation to which he had referred. They must get the children out of the workhouses as cheaply as possible, and try to make use of every inch of ground. In some cases it might be found desirable to have two schools for one district. By means of this plan, the orphan children and children deserted by their parents might be separated from children who, with their parents, went in and out of workhouses, and did much to destroy the usefulness of those schools. Those children brought in with them every kind of disease, and all sorts of contaminating influences. It was manifest, therefore, that a separation of them from orphan children and children deserted by their parents was very desirable; and the further we could go in the direction of such separations, the more we should get over the difficulty arising from our not being able to have a complete classification of paupers. He might observe, too, that in workhouses in which all the paupers had been kept, the one set of officers had to deal with all classes of inmates—the sick, the able-bodied, and children. Efficiency and economy would necessarily result from having officers specially suited to the class of paupers with which they had to deal. Great good would be effected if they could separate in the workhouses the able-bodied young women from the others. They would be able to have better discipline, and the arrangements of the workhouses in that respect would be more satisfactory. The changes which, he had indicated were, no doubt, in the direction of an equalization of the charges for the poor of the metropolis. What he proposed was a step in the direction of equalization, but it was not to be regarded as a substitute for it. It was no substitute for such a system.
  960
  We could not have complete equalization till we had some check which would prevent one parish from spending more than another, so that no one parish could make too great a pull on the common purse. He was in favour of an equalization of poor rates in the metropolis, as far as that equalization could be accompanied by such a control; but he was sure the House would be unwilling to listen to a proposal for equalizing the rate without an arrangement which would secure that all the parishes should deal justly by the common fund. How did he propose by the Bill on the table to accomplish the objects which he had in view? The Bill of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gathorne Hardy) gave power to the Poor Law Board to amalgamate parishes without the consent of the guardians; but it did not give the Board a similar power in respect of unions. The unions in the metropolis were generally large, and there were not many of them which could be amalgamated, but there were some. In this matter there was rather delicate ground for him to touch upon, but he felt it his duty to do so. In the City of London there were three unions —the. City of London proper, with rateable property valued at £1,800,000, and the West London and the East London, each of which had rateable property valued at £200,000. In the first named of those unions the rate was only 7d. in the £1; in each of the two others it was 3s. At present the East and West London Unions, with the consent of the guardians, might be amalgamated with the City of London proper; and a few weeks since the Poor Law Board had asked the guardians of the two latter unions whether they would consent to their own. dissolution in order that they might be united to that rich union, whereby these rates would be reduced from 3s. to about 1s.? He had not received an answer, to that question; but from the proceedings of the West London Union he perceived that the guardians were much dissatisfied with the proposal. Indeed it would appear from their debate that there was no chance of their consenting to it. He had imagined that the union of the City of London proper might be opposed to his proposal; but he had not supposed that the poorer unions would object to a scheme which would reduce their rates so considerably. In this Bill

  961
  there was a clause which would empower the Poor Law Board to amalgamate unions without the consent of the guardians. He further took power to amalgamate sick asylums and school districts, but the separation of the sick would not be interfered with. He wished the House to understand that the Bill was not one which would increase expenditure. It was by no means the wish of the Poor Law Board to increase the burden on the rate-payers. They were alive to the duty of keeping down expenditure by every possible means short of sacrificing the primary object for which the Poor Laws were established. He should explain the clause respecting buildings. Where a parish had spent more than a certain amount upon building, the additional charge was to come upon the common fund. The clause with regard to the establishment of dispensaries could be more conveniently discussed in Committee than on the second reading, and then he should be prepared to state fully the views which had induced the Government to propose them. The only other clause to winch he need address himself at present was Clause 3. which he thought would give vise to more opposition than any other clause in the Bill. It was perfectly separate from the other subjects on which he had been addressing the House. Clause 3 dealt with the collection and assessment of the poor rate. In London, as in some other large towns, there was a large number of local Acts under which the local taxation was collected; and with no part of the system was it more necessary to grapple than with the collection and audit of rates under those local Acts. Persons often complained, and with justice, that at present they often did not know what rate they were paying or when they would have to pay it. That arose from the number of separate Acts which regulated the rate collection, and the House would see how difficult any audit must be when every parish had its own system. Great abuses had resulted from the present system. There were two cases which, during the last two months, had come under his attention. In one parish which he would not name, the rate had for five years been made by the vestry, instead of by the overseers. They were not responsible, as the overseers were, and for five years they had not raised sufficient money to defray expenditure, and had
  962
  made temporary loans, quite against the law, in order to carry them forward. A deficiency of £7,000 was the result, and the vestry then came to the Poor Law Board to know what they were to do. He asked—"What can the auditor have been about?" But the answer was—"We have our own system of accounts; we have got our own local Act." In the case of Greenwich there was a defalcation; and then again he asked—''What has the auditor been about?" and was told again that the parish had their own local Act and were not subject to the general law. It had been said of Clause 3 that he was asking that local Acts should be repealed and the collection of rates put under the orders of the Poor Law Board. That was not the intention of the clause, and if the words bore out that construction they should be changed. The meaning of the clause was that the local Acts should be repealed so far as the collection of rates was concerned, and the parishes put under the general law of the country; and he did not see why, especially where there was a common fund and one general interest throughout the metropolis, this exemption from the general law should be maintained. At the same time it was a subject which must very soon be dealt with as a whole throughout the whole country. In the Committee which sat upon this subject it was felt that all rates should be collected at certain intervals by the same collector, and that a certain degree of order should thus be established. If, however, every local authority could plead a local Act, the Poor Law Board could not establish order out of such chaos. He was not particularly anxious as to the passing of Clause 3 in the present Session, if thereby the Bill were delayed; because, while he recognized the importance of the clause, he felt that if the object aimed at were not accomplished this year, a general measure would be passed next Session. He felt that he had trespassed an unconscionable time on the patience of the House, though he had not even yet dwelt sufficiently on some points of detail, especially with regard to the separate infirmaries. The great object of the Bill was to classify by amalgamation rather than by increased buildings—to exhaust every possible means at present at their command before they built any more; and he trusted that, in carrying out this

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  amalgamation, notwithstanding the opposition it must create, he should have the support of the House.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Goschen.)
  MR. W. M. TORRENSsaid, that at that late hour it was hardly possible to continue the discussion of a measure of such importance, and he therefore moved that the debate be now adjourned.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, he hoped that the Government would give the House an opportunity of discussing the question fully.
  MR. GOSCHENsaid, the Government were most anxious that the Bill should be thoroughly discussed.
  MR. W. M. TORRENSsaid, he wished the debate to be adjourned to Monday next.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he agreed that the discussion on a Bill of such importance should not be stinted, but other questions of still greater urgency wore before the House, and, therefore, he could not give Monday or Thursday for the further discussion. If Supply went off early next Friday, as it might do, the Bill might be fixed for that day, but would not be taken at a late hour.
  Debate adjourned till Friday next.

  OXFORD UNIVERSITY STATUTES BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. GATHORNE HARDY, Bill to remove doubts as to the validity of certain Statutes made by the Convocation of the University of Oxford, ordered to be brought in by Mr. GATHORNE HARDY and Mr. MOWBRAY.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 136.]

  COMPANIES CLAUSES ACT (1863) AMENDMENT BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. GOLDNEY, Bill to amend the Companies Clauses Ac:, 1863, ordered to be brought in by Mr. GOLDNEY and Mr. EYKRN.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 138.]

  PIER AND HARBOUR ORDERS CONFIRMATION (NO. 2) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That the Chairman be directed to move the House, that leave be given to bring in a Kill for confirming certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under "The General Pier and Harbour Act 1861," relating to Falmouth, Fowey, and Padstow.
  Resolution reported:—Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. LEFEVRE and Mr. JOHN BRIGHT.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 137.]
  House adjourned at half after Twelve o'clock till Monday next.