Sitting of 25 February 1869

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—ordered—Assessed Rates; Married Women's Property; Marriage with Deceased Wife's Sister.
First Reading—Annuity Tax (Edinburgh) [19]; Married Women's Property [20].

METROPOLIS GAS BILLS.
MR. THOMAS CHAMBERS MR. THOMAS CHAMBERS moved, "That the Imperial Gas Bill and the Bills of all other Companies supplying the Metropolis with Gas be referred to the same Committee." The hon. Member said, the object was to secure con-

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sistency of legislation and the protection of the consumer.
MR. LOCKE, in supporting the Motion, called the attention of the House to the Notice issued by the- Board of Trade under the late Administration, from which it appeared that that Department contemplated bringing in a Bill similar to that passed last year for the Corporation of the City of London, and which would extend to the other parts of the metropolis those advantages which the City now enjoyed. The Act of the City Corporation had been of great benefit; it had lowered the price and improved the quality of the gas. At the same time it required alterations and additions, and therefore the Board of Trade issued a Notice on the 14th November last indicating their intention of bringing in a Bill to extend provisions similar to those of the City Corporation Act hi the whole of the metropolis, and to enlarge and improve those provisions. He presumed that Bill when brought in would be referred to a Select Committee, and therefore it would be most prudent to prevent this Imperial Gas Bill from being taken into a Committee by itself, and to send it to the same Committee which would have to consider the Bill of the Board of Trade. A Committee on this subject, as far back as 1867, had concluded their Report with these words—
"Unless the Companies are prepared during the Recess to consent to such an arrangement (the one suggested by the Committee), your Committee think that every facility should be afforded to the local authorities of the metropolis in the Session of 1868 for the introduction of an independent supply."
Advantage was taken of that recommendation by the Corporation of the City of London, but not by the Metropolitan Board of Works, who had no funds at their disposal to carry out such a project.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, the Notice given by the Board of Trade, some time before he joined the Government, was not given with any positive determination to introduce a Bill, but rather with the view of leaving the Department at liberty to determine what should be done when the House assembled. The matter had been discussed most fully since he became connected with the Board, and the conclusion arrived at was not to bring in any Bill on their part as a consequence
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of the Notice. The Bill now under consideration was the only one of great importance that was likely to come before the House this Session on behalf of the Gas Companies. It was a Bill by which it was proposed to raise a large amount of capital, and it was one, no doubt, that would require very careful consideration by the Committee to which it would be referred. In this case, as in most others, the Committee would be called upon to ascertain that not more than a necessary amount of capital was to be raised, and that security was taken that the capital should be duly and properly expended. It was true that in 1867 a Committee recommended that every facility should be afforded to the local authorities of the metropolis in the Session of 1868 for the introduction of an independent supply, but, unfortunately, in the metropolis, with the exception of the City of London, there did not appear to be any authority to whom the supply of gas could be wisely confided. The Metropolitan Board was really the only body, and they at present, for a variety of reasons, did not consider it desirable that the supply of gas should be undertaken by them. He took it for granted that, if the Metropolitan Board had the power to supply the metropolis with gas, they would not establish new works at any one place, but would arrange for the transfer to them of the pipes already laid, and the works already established. The Board, however, was not at present in a condition to undertake the duty, and in all probability its constitution would have to be reviewed by Parliament before so great a change was made. Under these circumstances he was unwilling to, as he thought, harass the Gas Companies by constant opposition in Parliament, when the Department was not prepared with any distinct policy which it could recommend to the House. There could be no objection to the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Marylebone (Mr. T. Chambers) that the Gas Bills be referred to the same Committee.
MR. BREWERsaid, one of the great difficulties under which the metropolis outside the City of London laboured was, that by the Local Management Act there was no power given to any local body to come to Parliament for those advantages which the Select Committee of 1867 thought ought to be conceded to the

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ratepayers, who were compelled, therefore, to rely upon the Government.
COLONEL SYKESsaid, gas was now supplied to the metropolis by companies which had been in the habit of dividing 10 per cent profits. The object of this Bill was to reduce those dividends, and this might be quite right; but they had been made the subject of family settlements, and if they were altered without due and careful provision, families might, in consequence, be reduced to ruin.
MR. AYRTONsaid, he wished to correct an erroneous impression that the local authorities had no right to interfere in these questions. Some time ago the Standing Orders of the House were altered so as to allow the local authorities of the metropolis to appear against any Bill affecting the interests of which they had charge, and by their Act of Parliament they had power to take any proceedings they thought necessary for the interests of the inhabitants of the metropolis. They had power, therefore, for the protection of the inhabitants, if they chose to exercise it; but he was sorry to say that the local authorities of the metropolis rather avoided duties which they might very well perform, and endeavoured to throw them as much as possible upon the Government of the day.
Motion agreed, to.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT, 1866.

  QUESTION.
  MR. MITFORDsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, If Her Majesty's Government will propose to Parliament any extension of the "Contagious Diseases Act, 1866," to places not mentioned in the first Schedule of that Act?
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that Government had under their consideration the course to be taken with respect to that Act, and would in a short time state the conclusion at which they had arrived.

  IRELAND—MEDICAL AND EDUCATIONAL CHARGES.—QUESTION.
  MR. GREGORYsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether, in accordance with the pledge given that the Irish Unions should be relieved of half the Medical and the whole of their Educational Charges, it is the intention of Her Majesty's Go-
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  vernment to add the deficiency of the sum voted last year for that purpose to the Estimate of the present year?
  MR. AYRTONsaid, the facts were not exactly as suggested by the Question of the hon. Member. He had made inquiry into the subject, and the arrangements adopted, as far as he understood, were that an Estimate should be made at the beginning of the year of the sum that would be required to meet the charges in each of the unions, and if at the end of the year that Estimate was exceeded, the Treasury should not pay the excess; but if the expenditure was less than the Estimate then the actual charge only should be paid by the Treasury. In accordance with that arrangement no application has been made to the Treasury for any further claim, and the subject had not been brought under their consideration.

  CONSTITUTION OF THE BOARD OF ADMIRALTY.—QUESTION.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether any changes have been made in the constitution of the Board of Admiralty or Coast Guard Office since the accession of the present Government to Office; whether the changes, if any, have involved any increase of salaries; have led to any resignations and to the granting of pensions; whether any clerks in the Office who had obtained their appointments by competitive examination or otherwise have been discharged; and, if so, what compensation has been awarded to them in consequence of their discharge; and, the number of men who have been discharged from the various Dockyards by Her Majesty's Government, their grades and occupations, and the pensions and gratuities granted to them?
  MR. CHILDERS: In reply to my hon. Friend, I have to inform the House that it had been my intention to give the fullest particulars of the changes at the Board of Admiralty, and of the reductions both in the clerical and professional establishments, when I bring forward the Navy Estimates, and that I am at some disadvantage in merely answering a string of Questions without being able at some length to explain the reasons for the acts of public policy to which they refer; but I will answer them as clearly as I can. My Answer to the first

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  Question is that the changes in the constitution of the Board of Admiralty and the Coastguard Office are the following:—Formerly the naval business was conducted by four naval officers and a civilian, acting under a First Lord, who might or might not be a civilian; and with a First Secretary, also sometimes a naval officer, carrying out their decisions, and, if the First Lord was a Peer, their representative in this House. The change which I have made is that the business of the Admiralty is conducted in the same manner as in the other principal Departments of Government. All questions relating to the personnel of the Navy are dealt with under my instructions by, and are brought before me by, the First Naval Lord, who is assisted by a Junior Naval Lord, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ripon (Lord John Hay); all questions relating to the dockyards, to stores, and to manufactures—in fact, to the materiel of the navy, are in the same manner dealt with by the Controller of the Navy, who has the title of Third Lord. The finance of the Department—that is, the duty of separately inquiring into all questions of expenditure, whether they concern the personnel or materiel, is assigned to the Financial or Parliamentary Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter), assisted by the Civil Lord. Each of these Officers is responsible to mo, in the same manner as the Controller General and the Under Secretaries are responsible to the Secretary of State for War. The offices of Controller and Deputy Controller of the Coastguard are abolished. Their duties are assigned to the First Naval Lord, to whom a post captain has been attached for the details of this and other services. The First Naval Lord also submits to me all proposals relative to the movement of the fleets, the manning, discipline, victualling, and health of the navy. The Third Lord and Controller similarly has charge of all questions connected with the dockyards, the steam reserve, and stores; and is practically in the exact position intended by the Dockyard Commission of 1860, to be assigned, to the Controller General. In answer to the second Question, I have to say that these changes have had the result of reducing the number of superior officers at the Admiralty, including the Board, from seventeen to thirteen. Their salaries and allow-
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  ances (not including half-pay) which were £24,901, are now £21,000; and, instead of occupying six official houses, they only occupy three, the others being used for clerks and officers brought from Somerset House. This office accommodation is worth at least £1,200 a year, so that the saving is altogether £5,101 a year, besides the great advantage and economy of concentrating the Department. The increase of individual salaries and allowances granted in consideration of increased responsibility are that the First Sea Lord receives £1,500 a year, instead of rather more than £1,100; the Controller, who has no house, £1,700, instead of £1,300; and the Constructor £1,200, instead of £1,000. There are also some small increases in minor salaries, more than covered by reductions. In answer to the third Question, I have to say that two of the reductions are in the Board itself, and therefore led to no resignations; one, that of the Controller of the Coastguard, anticipated the natural end of his term of service by a few days; the fourth, that of the Storekeeper General, could not have been long delayed, as he had been for forty-two years in the service. His is the only pension, and he could have claimed it for some years past. Before I answer the fourth Question, as to clerks, I must remind my hon. Friend that in the Notice he gave me he spoke of the "violation on the part of Her Majesty's Government of the implied agreement with clerks consequent on their obtaining their appointment by open competition, or otherwise." I see now that he has omitted these words; but, as he included them in his original Notice, I feel bound to say that the only agreement between the Government and their clerks is contained in the 7th section of the Act 22 Vict. c. 20, which prescribes what compensation shall be given to a clerk, whether his service be under five, ten, twenty, or any number of years, on his office being abolished or reduced. This Act and the Treasury Minute based on it, dated the 14th of June, 1859, have been in force for ten years, and are perfectly well known to the whole Civil Service. The only duty of the Government is not to exercise its powers under the Act in a manner detrimental to the public service, or partial so far as individual officers are concerned. What has been done is this:—When the Con-

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  troller's separate office was abolished it was ascertained that under the new arrangements twelve clerks and three writers would have nothing to do; and when the Coastguard separate office was abolished, that out of twenty clerks and others, only two, or at the outside three, would be wanted, the saving in the two Departments being £7,991 a year. Notices accordingly were given to these thirty-three clerks and others that after the 31st of March their services would not be required in those Departments; but they were also informed that they would receive the compensation granted by the Act, would be put on a redundant list from which all similar appointments would be made, and that this list would be communicated to the Treasury. Before I decided on the reduction in the Coastguard Office I also appointed, three weeks ago, a Committee, consisting of Lord Camperdown, my hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter), and Mr. Anderson, the Assistant Controller and Auditor, whose business it has been to inquire in all the Departments of the Admiralty, whether arrangements can be made under which other officers, who might be better spared, could be retired instead of some of those to whom notice had to be given. They also have to consider very large reductions which, as will be seen by the Estimates, are being made in the Accountant General's, Store, Medical, and other branches. I have authorized them to inquire throughout the Admiralty Departments in London what clerks who can be spared may be willing to retire, and I have reason to believe that few, if any, efficient clerks will be discharged against their will, the reduction being mainly among the seniors and writers, although the whole reduction of about £14,000 a year in clerical expenditure in London will be effected; and if any should be necessarily put on the redundant list, they will, if efficient, be re-appointed to the first vacancies. In reply to the last Question, I have to state that Her Majesty's present Government have discharged no men from the dockyards, although they have given notice that in October next Woolwich will be closed, and as many as possible of the men employed there transferred to other I yards. To effect this it will be seen by the Estimates that the number of men
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  will be increased by 320 at Portsmouth, 240 at Devonport, and 200 at the small yards, and no fresh appointment will be made. I hope thus to continue all the established dockyard and factory men and some of the others. If my hon. Friend's Question refers to the discharges which occurred in the present financial year before I went to the Admiralty, I have to inform him that the number of artificers and labourers discharged from Her Majesty's dockyards from March to December, 1868—including a few deaths which I have not had time to ascertain separately, and exclusive of those from Deptford, which it was decided by my predecessor to close—was 5,409, and the number of entries 780, giving a net reduction of 4,629. Of these, 325 were established men, and of them 304 received pensions, averaging £26 per man; eighty-one non-established men received gratuities averaging £21. But of these men who were discharged about 2,000 were temporarily engaged in the previous October in excess of the number provided by the Estimates of 1867–8, and they were well aware that they would only be employed for a few months. I should add that at Deptford—which is dying out as a dockyard, and will be closed on the 31st of March—sixty-one established men have been pensioned off and 111 hired men discharged.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEexplained that the alteration in his Question had been made by the Clerk at the table. He also gave Notice that when the Navy Estimates came on for consideration, he would ask whether the reductions the First Lord had referred to were made in conformity with the present patents?

QUEEN'S SPEECH.

  HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
  Mr. SPEAKER reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:—
  "I have received with satisfaction your loyal and dutiful Address.
  "I gladly rely on the Members of a House of Commons, elected by a greatly enlarged, Constituency, to co-operate with Me in My endeavours to promote the welfare and union of My People."

  CONSECRATION FEES.—QUESTION.
  MR. MONKsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the table of Fees to be taken on Consecrations and Ordinations under the provisions of the Act 30 and 31 Victoria, c. 135, which was being prepared in April last, has been submitted to the Lords of Her Majesty's Treasury for their approval?
  MR. AYRTONsaid, the table referred to had been received at the Treasury on the 23rd of this month, and was now under consideration.

  THE "ALABAMA" CLAIMS.—QUESTION.
  MR. M'CULLAGH TORRENSsaid, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether any authentic information has been received of the rejection by the Senate of the United States of the Convention regarding the Alabama claims; and, whether he can inform the House that the Protocol regarding mutual rights of naturalization has been accepted?
  MR. OTWAY, in reply, said, no authentic information had been received at the Foreign Office of the rejection by the Senate of the United States of the Convention relating to the Alabama claims. His hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury had correctly described the agreement which had been come to with respect to the mutual rights of naturalization as a "Protocol" and not a "Convention." He had no intelligence that it had either been accepted or rejected, The Report of the Naturalization Commission had been received, and had been laid by him upon the table of the House that evening.

  HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, BRITISH COLUMBIA.—QUESTION.
  SIR. HARRY VERNEYsaid, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, What is the state of the Negotiation with the Hudson's Bay Company for surrendering to the Crown the rights which they claim over their territory in North America; and, whether any and what steps have been taken; with a view to establish a communication by road and telegraph from the Atlantic to the Pacific, by the Red River Settlement, the River Satchkatchewan, and British Columbia?
  MR. MONSELL, in reply, said, that negotiations were still pending between
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  the Dominion of Canada and the Hudson's Bay Company for surrendering the rights which they claimed over their territory to the Dominion of Canada, and it would be obviously undesirable for him now to make any statement on the subject. With regard to the latter part of the Question he had to inform his hon. Friend that in 1862 communications were begun between the Imperial Government, the Canadian authorities, and the Hudson's Bay Company for establishing passenger and telegraphic communication between the Atlantic and the Pacific. These negotiations continued till 1864, and in consequence of them the Hudson's Bay Company purchased all the necessary materials for constructing the electric telegraph from the Lakes of Canada to the Pacific; but in consequence of the negotiations that were going on for the transfer to the Dominion of Canada of the whole of the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company, the other matter had not been proceeded with.

INDIA—NATIVE SCHOLARSHIPS.

  QUESTION.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India, What arrangements have been made with reference to the Scholarships recently established by the Government of India for Natives of that country desirous of prosecuting their studies in England; and, whether there are any Papers on the subject which he can lay upon the Table?
  MR. GRANT DUFF, in reply, said, the subject to which the Question referred was a deeply interesting one, and was still under consideration, and as soon as the Papers were in a complete form he should be happy to lay them upon the table. The House would probably be interested to know that the first competitive Scholarship conferred by the Government of India had been gained by a young native of Assam, and the Government had just been informed by the Government of Bengal that he was expected to arrive in England in a few days.

INDIA—THE NAWAB OF TONK.

  QUESTION.
  MR. STACPOOLEsaid, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India, If he has any objection to lay upon the Table all the Papers connected

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  with the deposition of the Nawab of Tonk; Copy of the said Nawab's application for permission to leave Benares, his present place of exile, for the purpose of visiting England, together with the grounds upon which the late Governor General refused such application; and, whether he has any objection to lay upon the Table the Letter of Professor Syed Abdoollah, dated the 19th of January last, offering remarks on the subject of Native Indian servants and others brought from India to England, and who are frequently thereafter found destitute in the streets of London; and also to explain under what circumstances the Resolution of the Bombay Government, dated the 11th of February 1846, and which required that any one bringing Asiatic or African servants to Europe should deposit certain sums of money in the Government Treasury as a guarantee for the safe return of the said servants, was repealed?
  MR. GRANT DUFF, in reply, said, he had no objection to produce the Papers connected with the Nawab's deposition, but the Papers connected with his application to leave Benares had not yet been received from India. With regard to the latter part of the Question, he had to say that the resolution of the Bombay Government alluded to was, he believed, not found of much practical use, and had fallen into desuetude. The fact was that the Oriental vagrants in the streets of London were not generally dismissed servants, but adventurers or suitors who had come here on their own account. The whole of this subject, however, was of importance, and was receiving attention.

IRELAND—THE FENIAN CONVICTS.

  QUESTION.
  SIR FREDERICK HEYGATEsaid, he would beg to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether, in the selection of those Fenian Convicts now proposed to be released, the course has been adopted usual in the remission of sentences of obtaining the approval of the Judge who tried each case?
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE, in reply, said, that in ordinary cases when a memorial was presented from a prisoner for a mitigation of punishment or a free pardon, that memorial was referred to the Judge who had tried the case. But in the present instance no such memorial had been received by the Government, and the question was not con-
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  sidered as one respecting a mitigation of an ordinary sentence. On the contrary, it was regarded by the Government as a question to be decided by themselves and by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. What they did was to institute a most rigid examination into the case of each prisoner, and in conducting that examination they had the assistance of the Law Officers of the Crown, and more especially of the Attorney General. The examination was conducted in every case in reference to the character of the person and the circumstances of the case, and to all that came out at the trial. Having done that, Her Majesty's Government and the Lord Lieutenant were of opinion that it was their duty to decide the question solely on their own responsibility, and without inviting the Judges to share that responsibility.

  INDIA—REMOVAL OF THE SEAT OF GOVERNMENT.—QUESTION.
  MR. DILKEsaid, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether it is true that the Governor General of India is to reside at Simla during the greater portion of the present year; and whether, if this be the case, it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to remove the nominal seat of the Government of India from Calcutta to some more healthy spot?
  MR. GRANT DUFFsaid, in reply, he had received no information whatever as to whether the Governor General intended to reside at Simla the greater part, if indeed any part, of this year. The question of the change of the nominal capital of India from Calcutta to some other place was of course a very important and interesting one, but it was right he should distinctly state that that question had not passed out of the stage of irresponsible discussion and examination, and that it was not in any form or shape, at present under the consideration of the Government.

ACCIDENTS IN COAL MINES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GREENEsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce any measure this Session for the further prevention of Accidents in Coal Mines?
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN, in the absence of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, replied, that a Bill upon that subject was in course of preparation, and that it would before long1 be laid before the House.

  SALISBURY GAOL—REMOVAL OF PRISONERS.—QUESTION.
  DR. LUSHsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, since his Letter to the Mayor of Salisbury, in which he informed him that he had advised delay in the removal of the prisoners from the Salisbury Gaol until after the Report of the Judicature Commission had been issued, he had seen reason to alter his opinion, and upon what grounds?
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSENsaid, in reply, that the magistrates of Wiltshire, who were the prison authorities, having come to the conclusion that one prison was sufficient for the requirements of the county, took steps to close Salisbury Gaol either wholly or partially, and to commit prisoners in future to that at Devizes. The Act of 186t5, no doubt, empowered them to order commitments of any particular class of prisoners to be confined to that prison only, but a doubt arose as to whether they had power under the Act to remove those who were actually undergoing sentence in the prison it was proposed to abandon. They therefore applied to the Home Office, under the 65th section of the Act, for an Order under which such prisoners might be removed. But before that application had been made, a memorial had been presented against the abolition of Salisbury Gaol, and subsequently he (Mr. Knatchbull-Hugessen) had received a deputation which opposed the granting of such Order of removal upon three grounds:—First, that a mandamus was about to be applied for, to compel the prison authorities to put Salisbury Gaol into proper repair; secondly, that it was understood that the Report of the Judicature Commission, which was shortly expected, would recommend Salisbury as the assize town for three counties, and that in such case the prison authorities would probably be ready to spend money upon it; and, thirdly, that in consequence of this expectation, the October Quarter Sessions had resolved, by a majority, to suspend further proceedings in the matter until
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  the Report of the Judicature Commission had been published. Upon that the Home Secretary wrote a letter to the authorities of Wiltshire suggesting that the litigation and expense might be avoided if the Order for removal were deferred until the Judicature Commission should issue their Report. In answer to this letter a very influential deputation of Wiltshire magistrates waited upon the Home Secretary, and stated that a large sum of money had been already expended on the gaol at Devizes, which had been duly certified in all respects as fit for occupation; they showed that the action of the prison authorities had been consistent and uniform, pointing to the establishment of one gaol and the abolition of another; they showed that the resolution of October last had been carried by what is usually called a "snap division," and that the proposal to ask for an Order of removal had been carried by a much larger majority in a larger court at the last Session; and they urged that very great inconvenience would be occasioned if the said Order for removal were not put in force. They gave an assurance, moreover, that whatever the Report of the Judicature Commission might be they would not be inclined to expend money on the Prison of Salisbury. The Secretary of State, therefore, felt that, as litigation and expense would evidently not be avoided by the further suspension of the Order of removal, and as the Act of Parliament intended that the local prison authorities should regulate their own affairs, it would hardly be right for him to take upon himself the responsibility of over-ruling their decision. He had given no opinion on the merits of the question, but simply carried out the decision at which the prison authorities had arrived.

  METALLIFEROUS MINES,—QUESTION.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary State for the Home Department, Whether it is the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill for the better regulation of the "Metalliferous Mines," in accordance with the recommendations of the Mines Commission?
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSENsaid, that the subject had received the full consideration of the Government, and though he was not prepared to say

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  that a Bill was in actual preparation, he hoped that legislation on the subject would not be long postponed.

ASSESSED RATES BILL.

  MOTION FOR LEAVE.
  MR. GOSCHEN, in rising to ask leave to bring in a Bill for amending the Law with respect to Rates assessed upon Occupiers for short terms, said, it might be convenient to the House if he were to explain briefly the general principles upon which the measure was founded. He wished to be allowed to state, in the first instance, that the Government had approached this subject with an anxious desire not to interfere with the electoral machinery established by the Bill of 1867. They had considered how far they could deal with what was really a grievance affecting a very large number of ratepayers, but at the same time they did not wish to revive more than was absolutely necessary—he hoped not at all—the political discussions on the subject which took place in that House two years ago. That the matter was one of importance would not be denied by any one on either side of the House. Hon. Members opposite were as well aware as Gentlemen on that (the Ministerial) side of the great difficulties that had been experienced in many places in collecting the rates from weekly tenants; and as regarded their number, it might be in the recollection of the House that there were at least 700,000 occupiers under £10 a year, and a very great majority of those 700,000 were weekly tenants, by which he meant tenants for short terms, or less than a quarter of a year. He was not now speaking of tenants above or below any particular line—above £6 or below it—but of weekly tenants in general, and he wished to put as briefly as possible the position in which those tenants stand. The real point of their difficulty was this—that rates were levied, not for past expenditure, but for expenditure to come—that they were levied to cover a certain period in advance. In many places rates were levied for the year, in other places for six months, and seldom for less than a quarter. If, therefore, they assessed a tenant for short terms to these rates, they came to this position—that they taxed the weekly tenant in advance for a time materially longer than his own occupation. They
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  went to him and said, "You must pay the rate for six months in advance, though your landlord may turn you to-morrow out of doors." It had been said in "another place" that the grievance had not been ascertained and proved; but he thought it stood to reason that there was great hardship in coming to any one, rich or poor, and telling him he was to clear his tenement of rates several months in advance, though he might be called upon to leave the tenement the day after. He did not see that the question of furnished or unfurnished apartments made any great difference, because, though the richer classes found it difficult to remove their furniture, that was not the case with the poorer classes. But what would be said if any one taking furnished apartments for a fortnight were asked to pay the rates of the house for twelve months to come? "Well, that was the precise position in which the great majority of the weekly tenants stood. And there was this further peculiarity in the case, that under many local Acts the overseers had not got it in their power legally to levy the rates by instalments. They might make arrangements voluntarily to do so, but if they had to summon a ratepayer they must summon for the whole rate. That was a part of the grievance which had created a certain sense of wrong among a very large class of ratepayers, for they said, they were not asked to pay a rate levied on them simply for the term of their occupation, but a large lump sum for six months or twelve months together. The Government looked on this question not as a political one, but simply in this light—whether, if a remedy could be found, they were to allow a vast number of weekly tenants to be left in their present position. If it was said that this was an old grievance—that the rate was demanded from weekly tenants in advance, even before composition was introduced or the Reform Bill passed, that was very true, but composition was introduced many years ago with the very object of meeting this grievance. Formerly the rates used to be made for much shorter terms, but latterly, especially in the larger towns, where there were such vast numbers of ratepayers, it had become the custom to levy them quarterly or half yearly, in order to avoid the additional expense of collecting them if levied more frequently.

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  By the statute of Elizabeth the rates were to be levied weekly, and then it was proper that weekly tenants should pay. The inconvenience of weekly collection, however, soon came to be felt, but then it was the hardship to the owner, not the weekly tenant, that was taken into consideration, and composition was introduced for the sake of the parish and the owners, as was apparent from the preamble of the various Bills for rating the owners. He thought if the House took the question of local taxation in hand they would feel it quite right to consider this matter fully, quite regardless of the Bill of 1867. He held that the Government might challenge the House on this question, irrespective of any political considerations. Circulars had been issued from the Poor Law Board and the Home Office under the late Government with reference to the great number of summonses issued for rates, and also to the payment of rates by the owners in lieu of the tenants; and the House would remember that on various occasions when rates had been levied in the large towns they had seen reports in the newspapers of the vast number of summonses issued, and also of excusals from rates in consequence of the recent change in the law. Taking the East of London, in the spring of 1868, in Shoreditch there were 15,000 summonses issued; in Bethnal Green and Mile End the case was much the same; in Hackney the number issued was 6,000—the hearing of the whole of them being fixed for the same day; and in Lambeth the number was 7,000. Again, in Birmingham in October, 1867, there were 25,000 persons summoned, and in May, 1868, 15,000, the number of warrants of distress being 5,000, and the cost to Birmingham of the proceedings upwards of £3,000. Such was the case in regard to the inconvenience to the tenant. He asked the House whether it was expedient or desirable, in a public point of view, that there should be that enormous number of summonses and excusals? Was it desirable that there should be every kind of evasion of the law in order to turn the corner of an Act which it was so difficult to carry into execution. It was found so difficult to collect the rates from the tenants that, in many instances by a mutual understanding, the owners continued to pay them for the tenants, and he was sure that
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  hon. Gentlemen opposite would not deny that that was a convenient arrangement, and one which ought not to be interfered with. He might quote the authority of the late President of the Poor Law Board, who issued a Circular to the overseers of the various parishes to this effort—
  "The Board desire to remark that, except in regard to the provision whereby owners were sometimes liable to be rated in the place of the occupiers of houses and tenements, the law according to which the poor rate is made, levied, and collected, as it existed before the passing of the Act, is unchanged. It follows in their opinion that, as heretofore, the payment of the poor rate need not have been made by the person assessed himself, but the payment by an authorized agent acting for him would have been sufficient; so, notwithstanding the provisions of this Act, the rate may be paid by any other person on behalf of the person rated, if duly authorized by such last mentioned person to make the payment; and they think that the overseer will not be justified in refusing to receive the payment of the rate when so tendered or to give a receipt for it. The several cases of "Rex v. Bridgewater," 3 T. R. 550; "Q. v. Benjeworth," 3 B. and E.,, 637; and "Q. v. The Mayor of Bridgnorth," 10 Ad. and E., 66, show that the person who pays the rate for the person assessed must have authority from him for making such payment, either express or implied.
  That Circular showed that at present the landlords practically paid the rates for the tenants in a vast number of cases. He had himself received several deputations of overseers from the East of London, and when he asked them by whom the rates in their unions and parishes were paid, in nearly every case they replied, the owners. He asked them how they managed it, and they answered that they practically made the owners pay, because they told the owners that otherwise they should have to harass their tenants weekly to get the rates, and the owners felt that that would be such a hardship to their tenants that they practically undertook to pay for them. He said to the overseers, "Of course you do not pay a commission for this to the landlord, because that would be illegal?" They answered "No." Then he asked, "How do you indemnify the owners?" and the reply was, "By lowering the assessment of the houses." Thus by what he called a kind of collusion, the Act had really become inoperative. They went to the tenants, and not getting the rates from them, they entered into a sort of half illegal arrangement with the landlords, and the occupiers did not practically pay the rates. The change which he now proposed was

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  not at all violent, but went on the acknowledged principle that payment by the landlord was practically payment by the tenant, if the former was authorized by the latter to pay. That being the state of the case, it was most desirable to remove the evils that had arisen in respect to summonses, and also to excusals, which had attained an unprecedented scale since the passing of the Act of 1867. The Circular issued by the Home Office showed that that Departpartment was as alive as the Poor Law Board to the great difficulties connected with that Act. The Circular of the Home Office stated—
  "I am directed by Mr. Secretary Hardy to state, for the information of the Justices for whom you are acting as clerk, that, in consequence of the large number of summonses for the recovery of rates which have been issued in certain boroughs in which, prior to the passing of the Representation of the People Act, 1867, the system of compounding was in force, his attention has been directed to the mode of excusing poor persons from the payment of rates on the ground of poverty, under the authority conferred upon the Justices by the Act 54 Geo. III., c. 170, s. 11."
  The Circular then pointed to the mode in which summonses had been issued and excuses allowed, and suggested certain alterations in procedure. Surely it was better to try to avoid those excusals, by which some kinds of property escaped from rates, while they also added to the grievance of those weekly tenants who did pay by making them pay for others who were excused; for, of course, the more persons they excused, the greater in proportion was the burden thrown upon all who really had to pay. He was sure he was not using too strong language if he said that the present mode of collecting rates from weekly tenants was unjust in principle, and demoralizing in practice, tempting them, on the one hand, to evade the law, and exasperating them when they could, not do so. These were the reasons which induced the Government to think it was absolutely necessary to legislate on the subject, and he was sure that if the late Government had remained in Office they would have thought the same thing. It would be remembered that a Select Committee sat upon that subject last year to inquire into the operation of that Act; and that Committee agreed to certain recommendations, some of which he thought were valuable, while
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  with others of them he confessed he could not agree. But their Report showed that it was necessary to do something in the matter, which could not be left on its present footing. It would be impossible to deal with the whole question of rating this year and carry out all the improvements in it which were desirable; but this matter, he thought, might be set right by a very simple arrangement. He would now describe what the Government proposed to do. They did not propose to touch the Reform Bill or the electoral machinery. They thought it would be unwise at present to raise the question as to whether the rate-book should be the register. The rate-book had remained as the basis of the register under the Representation of the People Act of 1867, and it would remain as its basis under the Bill which he now proposed. The chief point seemed to him to be this—that they should accept the principle that it would be wiser to call on the landlords rather than the tenants to bear the ultimate burden of the rates. Therefore they proposed that the occupiers of tenements held for short terms should still continue to be rated, and be liable to pay the rates, with their names on the rate-book, but that they should be allowed to deduct the rate they paid from the rents due, or accruing due, to their landlords. That would be the first proposal of the Bill. But then it might be said that as the rate they would collect might exceed the rent which the tenant would have to pay, it might be difficult to carry out that which he regarded as the principle of the Bill,—namely, that no weekly tenant should be called upon to pay rates for a longer term than that of his occupation. Therefore it would be necessary to have a second stipulation for dividing the rate into instalments. They proposed that the overseers should not be entitled to collect more than a quarter's rate from weekly tenants, and that such tenants should not be required to pay more of the rates than would be covered by two weeks' rent. Thus, as those tenants must have two weeks' notice, in no case would they be out of pocket for the rate levied from them. The incidence of the rate, even if very heavy, was never likely to be so great but that a quarter's rate would be covered by a, fortnight's rent; and in that way he thought the grievances of the

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  weekly tenants would be remedied to a very great extent. The Bill did not interfere with the question of voluntary arrangements by which the landlord paid the rate. That would be left on its present footing, with one exception, to which he would presently allude. The Bill would not interfere in the least with such arrangements, but rather rendered it far more probable that landlords would adopt them. At present the landlord was under a temptation to make such arrangements with only a certain portion of his tenants, and not with others, believing that those others would be excused. But if the landlord knew that he must pay the rate—a perfectly equitable arrangement, as he thought—he would not have that inducement to refuse those voluntary agreements. But it would be said that this would place a liability on the owners of one kind of property which would not be put upon the owners of another—that the man who owned houses which let by the week would be obliged to pay the rates on them, and it would be asked why should he have to do so, any more than the owners of houses of another class—why should he have an additional liability put upon him? Now, there might be some force in that argument, because it was apparent that such a landlord might have to pay rates for property that was not let during the whole of the period for which the rate extended. It would, he thought, be admitted that in return for the liability put upon him the landlord was entitled to a certain indemnity. As a fresh charge would be placed on a certain kind of property, the Bill proposed that that circumstance should be taken into account in determining the rateable value of that kind of property. The landlords would have to bear a new burden, which would depreciate pro tanto the value of their property, and therefore it was proposed that any loss they might sustain in this way should be made up to them. Such, in brief, were the proposals which the Government deemed it their duty to make, and he hoped that while they would not be found to be inconsistent with the views of those hon. Gentlemen opposite who attached great importance to the rating provisions of the Reform Act, they would prove to be a practical remedy for the inconveniences which had arisen under the existing system. The weekly tenant would no longer be ex-
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  posed to a risk which he had now constantly to run, namely—that of leaving his cottage, after paying six months' rates, and being unable to recover from the tenant that succeeded him his share. In some respects, indeed, a weekly tenant would be better off under the provisions of this Bill than he was under the old system of composition, while, on the other hand, the proposed method would be free from those arbitrary deductions which constituted one of the chief objections to the composition system. He would be better off in this respect—that he would know he could no longer be called upon to pay his rates and his rent too. At present, if the rates wore not paid, the goods of the occupier might be distrained, so that, although he might have paid his rent, he would still be liable for a large amount of rates. By the provisions of the present Bill the weekly tenant would also be relieved from the grievance of having to pay his rates in a lump sum. This was a grievance which had caused a very great deal f irritation. Weekly tenants were in the habit of paying for everything by weekly instalments, and did not like to be called upon for payment in a lump of what to them was a considerable sum—say £1, or £1 5s., for example. They now evaded the difficulty by the arrangements they entered into with their landlords, but under the provisions of the Bill which he should ask leave to introduce there would be no evasion of any kind. As regarded the position of weekly tenants with reference to the Reform Act of 1867, he submitted that the principle which had been mainly contended for was that the rates on all property that gave a title to the electoral franchise should be paid by the tenant. But it was evident from the Circular he had quoted that the rates need not be paid by the tenant in person. In point of fact, the rates were often paid by the landlord now, though he was not able to get any indemnity for so doing. Moreover the Bill would not in the least affect the residential qualification. Of course if a tenant were unable to pay his rates he would be disfranchised, as under the existing law. He must still have money enough to pay his rates, though he might deduct the sum devoted to that purpose from the rent due to the landlord. There was absolutely nothing new in this proposal, because to a great

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  extent it was already the law in Scotland and Ireland. In both those countries a certain portion of the rate was put on the landlord, and therefore the principle that the landlord might fairly be made liable for the payment of rates was acknowledged. Upon what principle, then, were the rates collected? In Scotland the method adopted was as follows:—The 43rd section of the Act 8 & 9 Vict., c. 83, passed in 1845, provided—
  "Where the One Half of any Assessment is imposed upon the Owners, and the other Half on the Tenants or Occupiers of Lands and Heritages, it shall be competent for the Collector of such Assessment to levy the whole thereof from the Tenants or Occupants, who shall be entitled to recover One Half thereof from the Owners, or to retain the same out of their Rents, on Production of a Receipt granted by the Collector of such Assessment."
  In Ireland the same system prevailed. By sections 71 and 74 of the Act 1 & 2 Vict., c. 56, it was enacted as follows:—
  "Every Rate made under the authority of this Act shall be paid to the Person authorized to collect the same by the Person in the actual Occupation of the rateable Property at the Time of the Rate made, and, on his Default, then by the Person subsequently in the Occupation of the rateable Property from whom such rate shall be demanded. Where the Person occupying such Property shall be liable to pay a Rent in respect of the same, he may deduct from such Rent for each Pound of the Rent which he shall be liable so to pay One Half of the Sum which he shall have paid as Rate in respect of each Pound of the net annual Value (whether such Rent shall be greater or less than such net annual Value), and so in proportion for any Sum less than a Pound."
  The House would see, therefore, that the Government were by no means pursuing an unprecedented course in proposing that the landlord should be made liable in the ultimate resort for the rates on certain kinds of property. Quite irrespective of the passing of the Reform Act of 1867, the weekly tenants, the parishes, and the owners of property would be benefited by the proposed change, and would, in fact, be placed in a better position than they occupied prior to the passing of that Act. And here he ought to state that the Bill would not be confined to Parliamentary boroughs, as all weekly tenants ought to be entitled to the same privileges. The House would remember that composition had only been abolished in Parliamentary boroughs, and in them only in respect of certain rates, as he believed that the district rate and the highway
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  rate, when not collected with the poor rate, might still be compounded for, while beyond the area of Parliamentary boroughs the old system of composition remained in full force. Now, the Government had anxiously considered the question, whether the method of deduction introduced by the Bill could co-exist with composition in those places where composition had not been yet abolished. It appeared to the Government that it could, because, as weekly tenants would be entitled to deduct the rates from the rent after they had been called upon to pay them, and as under the composition system they were not so called upon to pay them, that portion of the Bill would not apply to places where the compounding system obtained. It was true that the sections providing that a reduction should be made in the case of property let to weekly tenants in the gross estimated rental of such property would apply universally; but it would, of course, be competent for the local authorities, in places where compositions still existed, to lower the deductions, and to say that the only deduction allowable should be that in respect of empty houses, as the liability of the owners was already considered in the general deduction of 25 per cent. It might, perhaps, be said, however, that it would have been better for the Government to deal with the subject of composition generally; but opinions varied so much on the subject that it had been deemed advisable to limit the operations of the present measure to the case of weekly tenants. In an economical view, the Bill would even go beyond the composition system, for it was compulsory and extended to the whole of England; it removed the burden of bearing the rates entirely from the weekly tenants, and it established, once for all, the principle that the property of the landlord, when let out in this particular way, was to be entitled to a deduction in its rateable value. The Government were thoroughly convinced that the proposed arrangement was just to all the parties concerned. When hon. Members had read the Bill they would, he trusted, agree that the Government had done their best to remedy a grievance which, as every one acknowledged, ought to be removed. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill.
  MR. GOLDNEYsaid, he had endeavoured to follow the able explanations of the right hon. Gentleman, and, as far as he could perceive, the long speech which had been delivered amounted to this—that the landlords of property let to weekly tenants were ultimately to bear the burden of the rates. Now, if the object of the Bill was simply to relieve weekly tenants from the burden they now bore, why should so roundabout a machinery be devised for the purpose? Why not enact directly that landlords should pay all the rates imposed on property let out to weekly tenants? The only benefit which, in his opinion, could arise from the complicated provisions of the Bill under consideration was, the keeping the names of the tenants on the rate-books in order that the requirements of the Reform Act of 1867 might be complied with. But even if it were determined that the owner was to bear the burden, he might be assessed and the rates collected from him quarterly, while the names of the tenants might still be inserted in the rate-book. What possible necessity could there be for imposing on the overseers the burden of taking the rates from the tenants, if they were immediately afterwards to be entitled to be re-paid them by their landlords out of their rents? Instead of benefiting weekly tenants, it appeared to him that the Bill would impose an additional burden upon them by rendering necessary the payment of their rent as well as of their taxes, in order to get a qualification. The only possible benefit which could, so far as he could see, arise from the operation of the Bill was that it would provide for the overseer a property—namely, the goods of those small tenants, on which to levy the rate, if he chose to harass them by so doing. There was a good suggestion made before the Committee, which was that the owners who let their properties for a short period should be the parties rated. This seemed to be the practical effect of this measure; and if so, why should it be necessary to put such cumbrous machinery in motion to effect the purpose? He should reserve further criticism till he had seen the Bill; but he thought it went a roundabout way to accomplish the object it proposed.
  MR. T. E. SMITHwished to ask the President of the Poor Law Board, whether it was his intention that all classes
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  of weekly occupiers should be placed on the rate-book, irrespective of the nature of the tenements which they held? In the borough which he had the honour to represent (Tynemouth), there were 4,800 persons placed on the rate list, all of whom had paid their rates, and out of that number 2,200 had been struck off by the Revising Barrister, 1,500 of whom came within the scope of what was known as the Stamper Case, which had been decided in the Court of Common Pleas, and 700 more had been struck off because the Barrister thought they ought never to have been put upon the list. The question was investigated, whether the houses of many of those ratepayers had pantries and other conveniences, which, however desirable in other points of view, were hardly deemed to be necessary to the possession of a vote.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he did not propose to enter into details on the subject at that stage of the measure, because the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goschen) said it was not the intention of the Government to open up the Reform question which had been settled, and he thought the right hon. Gentleman might be assured that there was no intention on his part of the House but to treat the question in a fair and impartial spirit, and candidly to examine the details. It was not his intention to import into the discussion the question of the compound-householder. He thought that the question was one which deserved earnest consideration, and he was sure that such would be accorded.
  MR. BRIGHT: Sir, I have presented Petitions to-night from the borough of Birmingham, stating some facts bearing on this question that I should like in a sentence or two to state to the House. I do not pretend to say that the case of Birmingham requires more attention than that of other boroughs whose names I might give. For instance, my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall (Mr. C. Forster), who sits behind me, in all probability could state just as much with respect to the borough which he represents. But in the borough of Birmingham, before composition was abolished, there were 36,000 male householders, I believe, who had never in the course of their lives paid a rate. The system of compounding was so universal—in most cases it was not optional, but was enforced by law over the whole town—that every

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  house of less value than £12, or even in some parts £15, was excused from rates so far as the occupier was concerned, the rate being paid by the owner. The distress which has prevailed since the change which has taken place has been something very great—something really to excite the sympathy of all those who have learnt the particulars. Summonses have been issued, I think, in regard to one rate for more than £ 15,000, and more than 5,000 distress warrants have been issued. Several thousands of persons have asked to be excused from rates, and the whole town of Birmingham has received this alteration of the law as a visitation, the severity of which has been aggravated by the belief that it was entirely needless. Now, the point of hardship to which my right hon. Friend the President of the Poor Law Board has specially referred, and to which he wishes to apply a remedy, is this—that the occupier of a house whose tenancy may last only for a week is or may be bound, and generally is bound, to pay rate for three months or for six months, and sometimes even for a longer period. That grievance, or rather that state of the law, existed in the case of Birmingham, but the evil was not felt by the people, because the system of composition afforded a complete shelter from that injustice, the tenant never being called upon to pay rates except as he paid his rent. He saw nothing of the tax-gatherer, and might leave his house in a week or a fortnight, but he never left having paid a rate for three or six months. When, therefore, the change was made two years ago the effect was to take away the whole of that shelter, and to bring upon the vast body of the householders of that town the evils, the sufferings, the obvious and notorious hardships and injustice described by my right hon. Friend on moving for leave to introduce his Bill. I think this is a matter which demands the special sympathy of the House. It is not a matter of any moment to hon. Members whether they pay a quarter's rate more or less; but to the great body of the working men of this country whose livelihood every week depends upon their weekly wages, the matter is one of very great importance. The average earnings of the working man are from 15 s. to 20 s., or 30 s., perhaps 40 s. a week. He occupies a house with three or four rooms, often with a
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  large family. Imagine how, under the pressure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he has to lay out his small income in order to provide everything necessary for the support of that family! There is not a shilling which he earns which has not to be appropriated to some purpose in the course of the week with that object. There is hardly any surplus in vast numbers of these houses. There is no accumulated surplus in the bulk of them to meet the new demands which, in consequence of the action of Parliament two years ago, have been brought on these occupiers. And when, for the first time, the tax-gatherer came to them, having paid their weekly rents to this time, for a new charge, they could not understand why it was imposed on them. This, then, is a case which—apart from all questions of party, which influenced the House so much two years ago—demands the anxious consideration and sympathy of the House. The right hon. Gentleman, acting on behalf of the Government, has been anxious not to interfere with what has been done two years ago, and not to stir up strife on this question, which then excited so much interest. He has treated it as an economical question. He has not treated it as a question of representation, but merely as a question of valuation and payment of rate; and he wishes the House to adopt a principle which shall extend throughout the whole of the country, and which, I believe, will be even better than the system which was destroyed two years ago. The hon. Member for the city of York (Mr. J. Lowther) said, he thought it would be better to have no discussion now of this question. I am not sure that this is good advice, because I think it is very desirable that not only the Members of this House should have an opportunity for considering the Bill, but that every constituency throughout the kingdom should also have that opportunity; and I believe they will learn much from the expression of opinion on the part of Members of the House even in this first stage of the Bill. It is a question that is, at the first moment it is looked at, a little puzzling; but I must confess that the more I have considered and examined the Bill the more I think that no other proposal offers a satisfactory settlement of a question found to be embarrassing on the opposite side of the House so much as

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  this does. I know that the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) and his Colleagues had no intention to inflict this hardship. We know that in many places the hardship is great, and is extensively felt. We know that the question of the franchise is fixed on a basis from which it cannot be now removed, and we are now prepared more than we were two years ago, or last year, to discuss the question without party heat; and I hope when the Bill comes on for second reading it will so recommend itself to both parties that it will experience, not only a fair, but a most favourable acceptance. I should be glad to have the question settled by this Bill, which grapples in a manner somewhat novel with a great difficulty; and I hope when it is discussed by gentlemen in the country who understand this matter thoroughly—I mean those who are connected with Boards of Guardians, and with the expenditure and collection of rates—they will be able to give to Members of the House such advice and such assistance as may enable us to, bring this question to a speedy and satisfactory issue.
  MR. CHARLES FORSTERsaid, as the representative of a borough which was greatly affected by the ratepaying clauses, he begged to tender his thanks to the Government for their early attention to the subject; but at the same time, he must reserve his opinion as to the adequacy of the proposed remedy till he had seen the Bill in print. He also expressed regret that it was not proposed to abolish the present objectionable rating clauses and to re-establish the system of compound rating. In his own borough (Walsall) 200 summonses for non-payment of rates had been taken out last week, and 1,500 more were expected. In the course of last year 1,600 persons were summoned for the same cause, and 2,400 were excused on the ground of poverty, thus extending the area of pauperism by the very machinery devised to alleviate it. He hoped that the Government would fix an early day for the second reading of the Bill, as the question excited the greatest interest throughout the country.
  MR. LOCKE KINGsaid, he did not understand that the Bill would meet the case where, under local Acts, houses of large rents were compounded for. In the county of Surrey there were many
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  such compounders, and they being all off the rate book were, of course, deprived of the privilege of voting. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would endeavour to remedy this grievance.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, he wished to bear testimony to the fact that some legislation on this subject was absolutely necessary. There was no borough in the country that had suffered more from the rate-paying clauses than Southwark. In the largest parish in Southwark—Bermondsey—there was actually a decrease of 211 in the number of voters on the register. Before the passing of the Reform Act the number of electors in that parish was 5,878, and since its passing it only amounted to 5,667, including lodgers. All the other parishes had increased, and the total increase of electors in the borough was 5,385, the whole number of electors being 17,703. It was inconvenient to discuss the Bill now introduced at its present stage, because it was difficult to understand it. The Government, no doubt, were actuated by the best intentions, and desired to provide a remedy for an evil, about the existence of which there could be no doubt, and he was satisfied that both sides of the House would render their assistance to secure the passing of a measure which would secure that result.
  MR. A. JOHNSTONsaid, he thought that the Government had exercised a wise discretion in refusing this Session to re-open the question that was supposed to be settled in 1867; but he should be very sorry that it should go forth to the country that the Liberal party, or any great section of it, were satisfied with that settlement. A great number of them were pledged to endeavour to disconnect, as soon as they possibly could do so consistently with the progress of Public Business, the suffrage from the payment of rates. With all respect for the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, he must say that such connection was absurd, mischievous, and unconstitutional. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade spoke one word that he (Mr. Johnston) should be sorry to see go forth to the country without that little explanation which the right hon. Gentleman might not think right to give, but which he (Mr. Johnston) had no difficulty in giving for him. The right hon. Gentleman said that the question of the suffrage was settled upon

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  a certain basis, and that it was impossible to move it from that basis; but he (Mr. Johnston) thought that the right hon. Gentleman merely meant that it would be impossible to move it higher up, not that it would be impossible to move it lower down, or to place it on some more satisfactory footing. He could not think that the right hon. Gentleman who had been in the very van of the Reform movement could pledge himself never to re-open the question, which those who sat on those Benches, could not regard as settled.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill for amending the Law with respect to Rates assessed upon Occupiers for short terms, ordered to be brought in by Mr. GOSCHEN, Mr. Secretary BRUCE, and Mr. JOHN BRIGHT.

MARRIED WOMEN'S PROPERTY BILL.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. RUSSELL GURNEY, in moving for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Law with respect to the Property of Married Women, said, it was similar to one that was introduced last Session, which was read a second time and then referred to a Select Committee. That Committee reported in favour of several portions of the Bill, but recommended further inquiry; an inquiry which, owing to the lateness of the Session, could not then be made. He trusted that the Bill would be now accepted, and that the debate might be taken on the second reading.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill to amend the Law with respect to the Property of Married Women, ordered to be brought in by Mr. RUSSELL GURNEY, Mr. HEADLAM, and Mr. JACOB BRIGHT.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 20.]

  MARRIAGE WITH DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.—LEAVE.
  MR. THOMAS CHAMBERS, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to legalize Marriage with a Deceased Wife's Sister, expressed his belief that the opening of a new Parliament was the right time for the introduction of a measure which had been frequently discussed in Parliament during the last twenty years, and which, on several occasions, had been adopted by that assembly by large majorities.
  Mr. CROSSsaid, he wished to give the hon. and learned Member for Marylebone Notice that he should feel it to be
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  his duty to oppose the second reading of the Bill.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill to legalise Marriage with a Deceased Wife's Sister, ordered to be brought in by Mr. THOMAS CHAMBERS and Mr. MORLEY.
  House adjourned at a quarter after Six o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Parochial Schools (Scotland) (11); Brazilian Slave Trade * (14).

QUEEN'S SPEECH—HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
THE LORD CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD (The Viscount SYDNEY)reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:—
MY LORDS,
"I thank you sincerely for your loyal and dutiful Address.
At a time when the enlarged enfranchisement of My people gives additional weight to the deliberations of the Legislature, I rely with confidence on the advice and assistance of the House of Lords."

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACT.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT LIFFORDasked, Whether it was the intention of the Government to propose the extension of the Contagious Diseases Act, 1866? He hoped they would have the courage to apply the Act to the City of London.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYreplied, that the subject had been under the consideration of the Home Office, and that a Bill would shortly be introduced, based on the recommendations of the Select Committee which inquired into the subject last year.

  CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that this being the first time he had been able to attend the House since Parliament had re-assembled, he desired to thank their Lordships for his re-election as Chairman of Committees during his absence, and expressed his hope that the favour and confidence extended to him during so many former Sessions would be still shown him. The noble Lord then gave Notice for to-morrow week of a Motion for a Return of all Acts of Parliament by which property had been taken from individuals, corporations, or trusts without their consent and without securing to them full compensation, or without offence being charged against them justifying such confiscation.
PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL

  PRESENTED. READ A FIRST TIME.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: My Lords, I rise to lay on your Lordships' table, a Bill to extend and improve the Parochial Schools of Scotland, and to make further provision for the Education of the People of Scotland. It is not usual in your Lordships' House, on the occasion of the introduction of a Bill, to make any statement or explanation as to its contents; but in the present case I think that course necessary, and mainly for the reason that the Bill itself does not contain the whole scheme of the Govern-

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  ment:—so that if the Bill were laid on the table, and circulated without any explanation of those parts of the scheme which lie outside the measure, considerable misunderstanding might arise as to its scope, and as to the intentions of the Government. In 1864, as your Lordships are aware, a Royal Commission was appointed by the Crown to inquire into the system of Scotch Education: and of that Commission I had the honour to be Chairman. It was composed of men of all political parties, and of almost all religious parties, interested in the cause of education in Scotland. It was pretty equally divided, so far as politics were concerned, between the Conservative and the Liberal parties, and contained members and representatives of the Established Church, of the Free Church, of the United Presbyterian Church, of the Episcopal Church, and lastly, of a school very powerful in Scotland in regard to education—the supporters of purely secular education. The Bill is substantially the Bill which was unanimously recommended by the Commission of 1864. I say substantially, because some minor modifications and alterations have been made in its provisions; but in its main principles it is the Bill of the Commission. In now approaching the consideration of the proposed measure, those new provisions are these to which I propose more particularly to refer. Those of your Lordships who are interested in the subject of education in Scotland will remember this important fact—that compulsory rating for the support of education has, for many generations, been the law of Scotland. We have a national system of education properly so called, entirely different from any which has hitherto existed in England, namely, a system of education and rating by Parliamentary authority—the parochial system of schools supported by rates, which are imposed by Parliamentary authority on the owners and occupiers of property. The salaries of the schoolmasters are regulated by law, and those salaries are raised by rates imposed by law. Your Lordships may naturally ask, if that be the case, what are the defects we desire to remedy in the existing system of education in Scotland? I will explain that in very few words. In the first place, the cities and towns of Scotland were never completely under the parochial
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  system, and have altogether outgrown the means of education which the parochial system provides. In the second place, there are many parishes in Scotland in which the growth of the population has been so enormous that the parochial system has become altogether inadequate to supply the educational demands which that increase in population creates. And in the third and last place, there are and always have been many parishes which are so large in geographical extent that the parochial school, though subdivided into several branches, is wholly inadequate for the proper education of the people. There are several; other defects in the existing system of education in Scotland, which I need not dwell upon. For example, imperfect provision with regard to school buildings, and—what is almost as important as any—the very imperfect provisions of the law for getting rid of bad and inefficient schoolmasters. These five great defects in the existing system we propose to deal with and to remedy by the Bill which I desire your Lordships should favourably consider. It will be obvious, from what I have said, that we cannot deal with the remedy for these defects precisely as Parliament has hitherto dealt with the parochial system of Scotland. Parishes are divisions known to the law, and it was a simple operation to enact that in every parish there should be one good and efficient school. But there are parts of parishes in which large populations have within late years arisen that are not known to the law, it is impossible in any general statute to indicate at once where new schools are required. In regard to those also it would be insufficient to enact that in every parish—in the city of Glasgow for instance—one school should be erected; and it might be inconvenient to enact that there should be more than one. All these are matters which must be determined by some authority having a full but discretionary power to go over all Scotland and say, "In this city education is defective, and you want so many more schools," or "This parish is too large, and you require more schools." So, in the manufacturing and mining districts, where the populations have greatly increased, new schools are required for the people. These are matters which Parliament could not undertake to deal with, except by means of a properly elected

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  and properly constituted body, specially appointed for the purpose. That being the case, we must have some authority instituted to which Parliament will commit that full power of investigation as to the localities in which new school accommodation is required. The only point which I have heard questioned as to the Report of the Commission is as to the constitution of the authority to be vested with these large and discretionary powers. I have heard differences of opinion as to whether it should be vested in a Department of the Government in London, or in some body more particularly connected with Scotland. Now, for my own part, I cannot conceive any doubt being entertained on the question by those who have really looked into the extent and nature of the power it is proposed to intrust to this body. I have great respect for my noble Friend the President of the Council (Earl de Grey). There are few persons in England to whom I would more completely defer as a discretionary authority in such matters. I know that to some extent he is acquainted with Scotland, and that, at all events, during those two months in which Englishmen betake themselves for health of body and mind to Scotland, he occasionally honours us with his presence. But still I confess that if an ukase came from his office to me, saying "In your parish there is a great want of a school, and I desire it should be erected," I am not quite sure how I should comport myself in deference to the authority delegated to my noble Friend. It seems to me apparent that where you give such large powers, independent of parochial and municipal authorities, you must vest them in some body which is in the main Scotch, which is acquainted with the feelings and habits of the Scotch people, with the principles of their educational system, and, above all, which is of a representative character. It was on these grounds, and with these feelings, that the Commissioners unanimously recommended that a discretionary power should be vested in the Board, which was sketched in their draft Bill. I think, however, there were considerable objections to the constitution of the Board as originally sketched by the Commissioners; and, indeed, one or two of the Commissioners did dissent on that point of the constitution of the Board. We have, therefore, made an important
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  alteration in it. There are three or four great parties or interests in Scotland who ought to be represented on such a body. In the first place, there is the interest of the proprietors of land, upon whom mainly, and almost exclusively the present burden of the parochial schools rests. In the second place, there are the interests of the burghs, over whom extensive and it may be thought arbitrary powers are given, and which ought therefore to be represented. Then, again, there are the interests of the higher education, and the opinions entertained upon the method of education by men themselves concerned in that higher education—namely, the Universities ought to be represented. I think it also necessary that the schoolmasters, who are on the whole a most respectable and intelligent body, and have done excellent service, and will be able to supply valuable information, should likewise have a voice; and, lastly, there is the Crown, which is usually represented in such Boards. That, therefore, is the constitution of the Board which we propose. We propose that the conveners of the counties of Scotland should elect two representatives, we propose that the burgh interest should elect two other representatives, and we propose that higher education should be represented by two members chosen by the Universities of Scotland, divided into those two groups into which the Parliamentary representation of those bodies is now divided. We also propose that the schoolmasters, through the organized institutions of which they are possessed, should elect one representative, and that two more, with a paid Chairman, should be nominated by the Crown. So much for the constitution of the Board. And now so far the provisions of the Bill might be very simple, and, if this were all that we should enact a very large proportion of the clauses of the Bill might altogether be dispensed with. If we had to deal with nothing but the old parochial system of Scotland, we might simply give to this Board full and discretionary powers to survey the whole of Scotland, to determine in what towns and in what parishes of towns, in what parishes and in what parts of parishes, it is absolutely necessary that new school accommodation should be provided, and we might be content to leave to that Board, in communication with the parties locally interested, full power to erect

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  new schools where they might consider it necessary. But the matter is very much complicated by the introduction in Scotland, during recent years, of the Privy Council system of grants. That is an element foreign altogether to the ancient constitution of the parochial schools of Scotland. I do not mean to complain of the introduction of the system into Scotland. When it was determined by Parliament that out of the Imperial funds assistance should be given to local bodies in respect of education, it was impossible that Scotland should be excepted from the field of its operations. We contribute our full share to the Imperial revenues of the country, and it was but just and fair, that so far as we complied with the conditions of the Privy Council, we should be assisted in that proportion out of the general taxation of the country. But there were in Scotland special circumstances which undoubtedly brought out into very full relief the peculiar defects of the Privy Council system of grants. In the first place there was, at the very time these grants were introduced into Scotland, a very great excitement, and what I may call an exacerbation of the rivalry of ecclesiastical sects. Now, the very basis of the Privy Council grants is, that you meet local subscription by subventions from the Treasury; and local subscriptions in Scotland for particular schools were produced not merely with reference to the wants of the locality, but with regard to the desire of particular religious bodies to outstrip and rival each other in the educational management of the country. The consequence was that, to some extent, encouragement was given to schools erected out of mere denominational rivalry, and not with reference to the existing wants of the locality. I think, however—though the evidence, taken by the Commissioners went far to prove that the operation of the Privy Council grants in this respect in certain localities were injurious—yet, taken as a whole, over the entire country, it could not be said that any very large proportion of the denominational schools were altogether useless for the education of the country. I can say, from my own personal observation and experience, that, in regard to a very considerable number of the schools which were erected—for example, by the Free Church—they were eminently useful in supple-
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  menting the parochial system. But, undoubtedly, in particular localities the system did stimulate and produce schools which were not otherwise required for the wants of the population. There is another inherent defect in the Privy Council system, which came out in very strong relief in Scotland, and which is coming out in strong relief in certain parts of England, and that is that you give to the richest parts of the country and withhold from the poorest. It is a necessary consequence of the principle on which the system is conducted. You give so much to aid those who subscribe in particular localities. In the richer localities the local subscriptions come forth freely and maybe very large; but, in the poorer localities, where the population is much scattered and very poor, you cannot get local subscriptions, and although very often these are the very localities in which the State ought to give the greatest amount of assistance, they are precisely those in which the least help is given by the State. This is a defect inherent in the Privy Council system of grants; you cannot get rid of it so long as that principle is retained. Now, in Scotland, in a very large part of the country, the parishes are very large, the rental is very small, and the population is very poor. The result has been that you find all over the Highlands and the Hebrides of Scotland where the population is in the condition I have described, that the Privy Council system gives very little help; whereas in the richer counties, and amongst the richer population, who do not require so much assistances, a very large amount of Privy Council grants has been absorbed. I will not trouble the House on this occasion with statistics, but I may inform the House that, from the evidence produced before the Commission, it was quite apparent that this inherent defect in the Privy Council system of grants is very remarkable in the case of Scotland, and. is especially evidenced, in such a town as Glasgow. That city is cut in two, as your Lordships are aware, by the river Clyde, and the northern portion of Glasgow is comparatively the richer, almost all the wealthier inhabitants of the city living north of the river, and the population on the south side is very poor. Even in that small area the bad operation of the Privy Council grants has been most remarkable. A very large proportion of

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  assistance given by the Privy Council has been absorbed by the wealthier part of the town, and hardly any has gone to the poorer suburbs. We wish to get rid, as far as Scotland is concerned, of this inherent defect in the Privy Council system—a defect which does not apply to our ancient national system, which was one intended to adapt the educational system of the State to the requirements of the various localities. But, although we desire to get rid of this defect, it is not so easy a matter to do so. A great many of the religious bodies have been enabled by these grants to build schools, and Parliament is pledged to them to a certain extent. It might happen—and probably would happen—that if you gave those schools an unlimited power of throwing themselves upon the ratepayers, they might be very glad to do so; but, on the other hand, where they are not really required by the parish it would be very hard to allow them to do so. The ratepayers might not be willing to take those schools from off the hands of the local managers: they have a right to say, "Oh, no, gentlemen; you put up these schools for your own sectarian purposes, and you have no right now to throw them upon the ratepayers of the parishes. We do not want them; they are not required by the population; and we decline altogether to take your schools from you." Under these circumstances, we again have recourse to the powers of the Board, and we give to the Board the power of looking over the whole of Scotland, and of selecting those denominational schools which are really required for the education of the people, and of adopting them—the effect of which adoption would not be necessarily to throw them upon the rates, but to secure to them the continuance of their Parliamentary grants. But then we go further, and would offer them the power to say, "We desire to be thrown upon the rates; we desire to give up our peculiar or sectarian management, and we desire to throw them upon the common management of the parochial schools." That, also, is a proposition which requires the assent of the other party; and several very important clauses in this Bill are intended to give the Board the power of consulting the two parties, and, where they are both agreed, of allowing those schools to be put upon the footing of parochial schools, under the management
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  of a school committee, which is the representative of the ratepayers. In that way we hope for the future to avoid the waste of money which the Privy Council system of grants has undoubtedly occasioned in Scotland, and to apportion such funds as we may have from the Imperial taxation to the real wants and requirements of the country. There is a provision also for the future. This evil is to be stopped. There are to be no more denominational schools in Scotland after a given date—a date calculated with the view of keeping good faith with those who may have already applied for assistance and have had the promise of a subvention from the Parliamentary grant. We also propose—and this is very important—to give the central Board a very large power over the school buildings in Scotland. There is no defect in the existing system in Scotland which was more prominently brought under the notice of the Commissioners than the very great defect which exists in many parts of Scotland in regard to school building. We empower the Board to deal directly with the local parties, and to require that the school buildings in all cases shall be sufficient for the wants of the population, and the purposes for which they sire built. We also propose to give to the Board full and I may say even arbitrary power with regard to the dismissal of the parochial teachers. This power is absolutely required. All previous Acts of Parliament have been practically useless for the purpose of getting rid of inefficient and bad masters. No doubt if a man is guilty of positive immorality—if you can prove him an immoral man in his life—he may be removed. But with regard to drunkenness, that is an offence exceedingly difficult to prove in Scotland. The difficulty of obtaining evidence upon that point is almost insuperable. You may ask a great many witnesses if they ever saw a certain man drunk, and their answer will be "No," but they will qualify it by such explanations as that "You would have kenn'd he had been tasting." It is extremely difficult to get any evidence upon that point. And so with regard to ill treatment of the children: if you can prove a master is cruel to them you can dismiss him; but for any other kind of inefficiency, complete idleness, such conduct as to estrange the affections of the people, as to prevent

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  them from sending their children to school, you have practically now no remedy whatever. We propose to remove this, which is a great and crying evil in Scotland. I have known many cases where for years and years the highest and best interests of the population have been sacrificed to this absurd notion of some right of fee simple in the property of their offices enjoyed by schoolmasters in Scotland. We propose that the Board, in communication with the local authorities, and on receiving complaints from them, shall, as regards the wasters appointed for the future, have an absolute power of dismissal for in competency—allowing, of course, wherever the incompetence arises from physical inability or any causes not connected with moral delinquency, retiring allowances of sufficient amount. We propose also, that so far as regards the inspection of the schools, the Privy Council shall retain the power of appointing the Inspectors. We believe that the system works admirably at present, and it would be inconvenient that it should be altered. I apprehend it will be quite enough that copies of the Reports of the Inspectors should be sent to the Board in Scotland, and also that the Board should, at all times, have the power of appointing Special Inspectors with respect to any special defects which may be brought before them from particular localities. I now come to a point of great importance—I mean to certain modifications in the application of the New Code in Scotland, which, I think, we may be able to arrange with my noble Friend at the head of the Privy Council if this Bill should pass. The arrangements which are now in progress in the Office of the Privy Council must, in a great measure, depend upon the success of this measure, for, if this measure is passed by Parliament, we intend to introduce some important modifications in the application of the New Code to Scotland, based entirely on the peculiarities of our national system, and especially upon our adoption of the system of rating. The first main; principle of the New Code is one which I, for my part, cordially adopt, and that is the payment by results. I think this fundamental principle is perfectly right. I think the masters and managers of schools ought to be paid according to the results of their teaching, as shown in the examination conducted by the In-
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  specters. This, which is the main principle of the New Code, is in no case to be departed from in Scotland. But there is another principle connected with the New Code in England which is altogether inapplicable to our peculiar condition in Scotland, and that is the distinction made between different classes of society. The theory of the New Code is, that their assistance is given only for the education of the poor, and for elementary branches of instruction only. But it has never been our habit in Scotland to divide society for educational purposes. On the contrary, it is the universal custom all over Scotland that men in very different classes of society should be educated together in the parochial schools. You will have the children of the poorest labourer sitting beside the children of the farmer who employs him, the children of the clergyman of the parish, and even in some cases of the landed gentry, sitting on the same bench and learning from the same master the same branches of instruction. It would be most injurious to the educational system of Scotland, and most unjust and inexpedient as regards the habit of the people, to make any distinction between the different classes of society. Therefore the payments of the Privy Council, measured by results, will be applied equally to all the scholars of the school, without reference to, or distinction between, the class of society to which they belong. The second modification I hope to see adopted is that some recognition should be given, within reasonable limits and under proper restrictions, to the higher branches of education. In the parish schools of Scotland we have never been accustomed to limit education to "the three R's." It has always been the custom of the parochial schoolmasters to teach geography, history, and very often Latin and Greek, even to the children of the poorest. I am much afraid that the proportion of the children who have gone on to those higher branches has of late years been a diminishing one; but that is still the case to a great extent, and it would be most injurious that any discouragement should be given to the practice. The third modification which we contemplate is that in regard to pupil teachers; their appointment should not be made contingent necessarily upon their attendance at normal schools, but

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  that their attendance at the Universities, under certain restrictions hereafter to be agreed upon, should be taken as equivalent to their attendance at the normal schools. That will be a great boon to many of the poor scholars in Scotland. A very large proportion of the persons educated at the parish schools go direct from them to the University, and, while obtaining their education there, eke out their subsistence by teaching schools in the evening, after working hard all day in the University classes. Provided some guarantee is given that they really intend to pursue the profession of teachers and are keeping up some practice in teaching powers, attendance at the Universities may, I think, be taken as equivalent to their attendance at a normal school. The general principles upon which these modifications of the Privy Council Minutes are founded will be found in very general terms in the Schedule of the Bill which I now lay upon the table of the House. The first sentence of the Schedule is so important that I will read it—
  "The Committee of Council, within—months after the passing of this Act shall issue a Code of Minutes and Regulations according to which the sum of money voted by Parliament for public education shall be distributed in Scotland; and the Committee in the course of each year, as occasion requires, may cancel or modify any articles of the said Code, or may establish new articles, except as hereinafter mentioned; but"—
  And this is the important passage—
  "But the said Code, or any alterations which shall be made thereon, shall not have any effect or operation until the same shall have been submitted to Parliament and laid on the tables of both Houses, for at least one calendar month; and such Code of Minutes and Regulations in force for the time being shall contain no directions or impose no conditions at variance with the regulations."
  Now the first regulation is the important one—
  "Rule 1. The object of Parliament in voting such sum is to defray part of the cost of educating these scholars (without distinction of classes) in the national schools of Scotland, and in framing a Code of Minutes and Regulations for the distribution of such sum due care shall be taken by the said Committee that the standard of education which now exists in the parochial schools shall not be lowered, and that, as far as possible, as high a standard shall be maintained in all the national schools of Scotland."
  That Schedule regulates the spirit in which the New Code shall be framed in its application to Scotland—no distinction between classes of society, and no discouragement, but rather encourage-
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  ment, to the high standard of education which has hitherto existed. There is another point to which I must refer respecting a subject of general interest, both as regards England and Scotland. Your Lordships must have been struck with the very great difference which exists between the condition of public opinion in Scotland and in England upon this great subject of popular education. I think it cannot but surprise some Members of this House to be told that a Commission, consisting of men of all political parties and of all religious denominations in Scotland, have unanimously recommended the giving to a central Board such large and arbitrary powers of imposing additional rates for educational purposes—enabling it to go to great cities like Glasgow, having an important municipal body, and direct the erection of a school in any particular street or ward. How has this great difference of feeling arisen? Your Lordships will recollect the terms in which, last year, when the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Marlborough), then President of the Council, introduced his Bill, he referred to permissive rating, the strong objections he urged to it, and how impossible he thought permissive rating in England. I really believe that if we were to propose a Bill for England, with powers of compulsory rating such as these, each particular hair on the noble Duke's head would stand on end, and I do not believe it would receive the assent of anything like the same proportion of men of all political parties in this country. The question naturally arises, how has this great difference of opinion between the two countries arisen? How is it that the people of Scotland are so anxious for education that they are willing—men of all parties and all Churches—to ask for such powers as these to be given to a central Board? The answer to the question is that this state of opinion is due to some of the great leaders of the Reformation in Scotland. The parochial system in Scotland was founded by John Knox, who laid down the principle, which has never faded from the popular mind in Scotland, that it is the duty and the function of the State to insist upon the education of the people. In language of singular eloquence and fervour, which even at this distance of 300 years, it is impossible to read without emotion, he insisted before the Par-

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  liament of Scotland that it was their absolute duty, if they desired that the light of the Reformation should be maintained in Scotland, to found a great system of national education. Nor was it a mere vague, suggestion. Every part of the scheme—even that which we are now only about to adopt—was laid down in that address by Knox. He provided for the establishment of parish schools; he desired to see burgh schools for the middle classes; he desired the erection of great Colleges and Universities for the higher education to be given to the highest classes. Nay, more, he provided for annual and continual inspection, and he laid down a principle which only very lately has been acknowledged in our legislation, but which I strongly suspect is about to play an important part in the legislation of the country—that education in certain cases must even be made compulsory. That principle has been adopted by Parliament in all the Factory Acts, and in other Acts for the employment of children; it has been adopted bit by bit, slowly and quietly, and I believe there are many persons who are not at this moment aware of the extent to which our legislation is committed to that principle in England. That principle was laid down by the great Reformers of Scotland; the advantages which she has derived from her parochial system have all sprung from that source, and it is due to the memory of these men to say that this system of general education was laid down by them alone, and, so far as I know, in no other country to which the Reformation extended was it adopted in the same degree or the same importance attached to it. So far as I have been able to ascertain, no one of the English Reformers laid stress upon the education of the people, but the Reformers of Scotland alone. I believe the secret of the difference is this—that in Scotland the Reformation came from below, while in England it came from above; and hence the interests of the people were always foremost in the minds of the Scottish Reformers, and hence they derived their singular clear-sightedness on this question. It is from that source the Scottish people have derived their strong appreciation of the blessings of education. But, at the same time, I am bound in honesty to point out to this House that this Bill, in many respects, widely diverges from
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  the principles laid down by our early Reformers. It is unquestionably true that in their time the education of Scotland was designed to be what is now called a denominational system. It was to be both national and denominational—that is to say, it was to be strictly national, but it was also to be strictly religious. Such a system was possible at that time. In the view of John Knox the whole population of the country was to be of one Church, and under these circumstances it was natural and perfectly right that the national system should be strictly denominational; that is to say, when the people were all of one religion and one Church it would be perfectly natural, and in my opinion perfectly right, that Parliament should connect education with the teaching of that Church. But, unfortunately, we are not now in the position in which John Knox was, or in which he hoped Scotland would be. For though we are not much divided in as regards doctrine, yet we are keenly divided on points of ecclesiastical discipline, and we can no longer hope for the establishment of a united system of education under any one Church. Under these circumstances I think a great step is now proposed by the system provided by this Bill—to cut off the connection between education and the conduct of particular religious bodies. The Inspectors are no longer to be necessarily members of any particular denomination, and they are not to be confined to the inspection of schools connected with any particular denomination. Above all, it is expressly provided that they are to take no cognizance of religious instruction unless the managers of the schools themselves desire such cognizance to be taken. This is an important part of the measure, and without it we could not possibly have had that assent to our measure which we have received from all parts of the country. We have full confidence that the ratepayers will conduct the new schools in respect of religious instruction much in the same way as the parish schools have been conducted. There really is no difference in the management of the different denominational schools in Scotland. It has been proved over and over again that parents do not care a halfpenny what is the religious connection of the school to which they send their children. They send

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  them to the best school, whether that school be an Established Church school or a Free Church or an United Presbyterian school. We propose, therefore, to take no cognizance of religion in these schools. In point of principle this course is rendered all the more easy by the example set last year by the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Marlborough) in recognizing, for the first time, secular schools in England as entitled to a share in the Privy Council grants. We take no notice of the religious instruction taught in any of these schools, except this, that we impose upon all the schools a stringent Conscience Clause. No public money is to be given to any school that does not submit to such a clause. But the truth is, that here also, I am glad to say, we are not met with the difficulties which prevail in England. In Scotland it has always been the custom that Roman Catholics may obtain the advantages of secular instruction at the parish schools without being compelled to go through the religious teaching. The same system has been universally adopted in the Free Church, and in every other—except, as I have been informed, though I hope it is not true, that the Episcopal Church will not allow secular instruction to be given in their schools without the pupils going through the catechisms of their Church. But, having thus given a general view of the principles of the Bill, I will not go further into details at present. At the proper time, and at a future stage—which I hope, as the Bill has received the assent of men of all parties, may be on going into Committee, which I propose to do after the Easter holidays—I shall be able to explain it more in detail, and I hope that the measure will finally receive the sanction of Parliament. In the meantime I would make one earnest appeal to the different religious bodies of Scotland to lay aside their minor differences, and to accept of this measure as on the whole a very favourable compromise. I know my countrymen well; I know the importance they attach, I think honourable, to abstract principle,—principles often so abstract, that it is difficult to get Englishmen to understand the importance attached to them. I know the tenacity with which they hold to their peculiar views, and I know that the Bill will not altogether coincide with the opinions of the extreme voluntaries or of the extreme supporters of the Estab-
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  lished Church. I lay it on the table as a Bill embodying a reasonable compromise, and earnestly trust it will be received in the same spirit in Scotland. My firm belief is, that if it is adopted we shall confirm and extend the inestimable benefits we have already derived from our parochial system, and shall be erecting the best monument that we can raise in grateful memory of immortal names.
  A Bill to extend and improve the Parochial Schools of Scotland, and to make further provision for the education of the people of Scotland—Was presented by The Duke of ARGYLL; read 1a. (No. 11.)

  PRIVATE BILLS.
  Ordered, That this House will not receive any petition for a Private Bill after Monday the 22 d of March next, unless such Private Bill shall have been approved by the Court of Chancery; nor any petition for a Private Bill approved by the Court of Chancery after Monday the 10 th of May next:
  Ordered, That this House will not receive any report from the judges upon petitions presented to this House for Private Bills after Monday the 10 th of May next:
  Ordered, That the said Orders be printed and published, and affixed on the doors of this House and Westminster Hall. (No. 10.)

  BRAZILIAN SLAVE TRADE BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for repealing the Act of the Session of the eighth and ninth years of the reign of Her present Majesty, chapter one hundred and twenty-two—Was presented by The Earl of CLARENDON; read 1a. (No. 14.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.