Sitting of 16 July 1868

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN—Ralph Assheton, esquire, for Clitheroe.
WAYS ASD MEANS—considered in Committee—
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—ARMY ESTIMATES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Resolution in Committee—Artizans and Labourers Dwellings [Stamp Duty].
Ordered—Expiring Laws Continuance *; Woods and Game Assessment.
First Reading—Hudson's Bay Company * [240]; Expiring Laws Continuance * [241]; Woods and Game Assessment * [242].
Second Reading—Colonial Shipping [236]; Admiralty Suits * [234]; Railway Companies * [237].
Special Report of Select Committee—Electric Telegraphs * [No. 435].
Committee—Metropolitan Foreign Cattle Market (re-comm.) * [139]—R.P.; Poor Law Board Provisional Order Confirmation * [231]
Report—Electric Telegraphs * [82–239]; Poor Law Board Provisional Order Confirmation * [231]
Considered as amended—Titles to Land Consolidation (Scotland) * [151]; General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Act Amendment * [226].
Third Reading—Titles to Land Consolidation (Scotland) * [151]; General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Act Amendment * [226]; Sir Robert Napier's Annuity * [230], and passed.
The House met at Twelve of the clock.

SOUTH-EASTERN AND LONDON, BRIGHTON, AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY COMPANIES' BILL—(by Order).

  LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
  Lords' Amendments considered; several agreed to.
  MR. WATKIN MR. WATKIN moved that they should disagree with one of such Amendments, and reminded the House that the interests of about 5,000 persons were involved in this matter. His object was to get restored to the Bill a clause which their Lordships had struck out, and which clause gave the shareholders power to divide their stock into two classes, preferred and deferred stock, and this had, in other instances, been found to be a most convenient course. One great advantage was, that it discouraged those speculators who endeavoured to keep down the price of stock; and another was that it gave large holders a very valuable mode of distributing their property in the stocks. The South-Eastern Railway Company now wanted to raise £400,000 for the purpose of constructing a railway to Woolwich and elsewhere, and they would have considerable difficulty in raising the money unless this power were

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  granted. There were numerous precedents for granting it, especially in the case of the Great Northern and in the strictly analogous case of the East Anglian. The Railway Commissioners in their Report said that the shareholders ought to be permitted to arrange these things for themselves, and Lord Redesdale, in his model Railway Bill, had inserted a clause giving the power. No one in the other House had objected to the power being in the present Bill except the Chairman of Committees, who carried his point by a small majority, and in so doing he (Mr. Watkin) must express his opinion that the noble Lord had been eminently inconsistent and eminently unjust, and therefore he proposed, in no spirit of offence to their Lordships, that the House disagree to the Amendment.
  MR. STEPHEN CAVE: I should be sorry to make any attack on the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees in the House of Lords. I have never found him wanting in courtesy, and I believe him to have frequently done excellent service in protecting the interests of the public. In this instance I regret that a personal attack upon me by the noble Lord obliges me to say a very few words. The noble Lord, in complaining of railway influence at the Board of Trade, is reported to have said in reference to a similar clause to that of which I have given notice in the Railways' Regulation Bill—
  "In all probability the imprudence of the Vice President will impose upon your Lordships the necessity of reversing a decision of the other House."—[3 Hansard, cxciii. 1078.]
  As to railway influence at the Board of Trade, I do not care to say anything. The opinions expressed to me by the railway interest in this House in reference to this very Bill do not lead me to think that they share in that opinion. With reference to the charge against myself I have three remarks to make. In the first place, that it is somewhat strong ground to take, that a collision between the two Houses is provoked by the introduction into a public Bill of a provision rejected in the House of Lords chiefly because it was not in a public but in a private Bill. Secondly, it would seem somewhat unusual to discuss "elsewhere" an Amendment which is merely on the Notice Paper of this House, and has never been brought forward. Lastly, that the President of the Board of Trade is responsible for the conduct of the Department. He is a Member of the House of Lords. Surely, then, the noble
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  Lord ought to have called him to account, and not have attacked—as I understand, in the temporary absence of the noble Duke—his representative in this House, who acts of course under his direction in these matters. I venture, therefore, to think that the term "imprudence" may be more justly applied to the remarks of the noble Lord than to the conduct of the Vice President of the Board of Trade. I shall not speak or vote in reference to this Amendment, as I shall be prepared to support it to-morrow when it comes before the House in Committee on the Railways Regulation Bill.
  Amendment disagreed to.
  Committee appointed, "to draw up Reasons to be assigned to The Lords for disagreeing to the Amendment to which this House hath disagreed: "—Mr. MILNER GIBSON, Mr. LAING, Mr. LEEMAN, Mr. WATKIN, and Mr. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN:—To withdraw immediately; Three to be the quorum.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now eave the Chair."

PETITION OF S. A. GODDARD.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. H. B. SHERIDANrose to call attention to the Petition of Mr. Samuel Aspinwall Goddard, merchant and gun-maker of Birmingham [presented 24th April], stating his claims for inventions and improvements in the construction of breech-loading cannon. The hon. Member said, that some years ago the Government had challenged the inventive power of the country to solve the problem as to having breech-loading cannon; and Mr. Goddard was one of the earliest to come forward, and he succeeded in making a breech-loading cannon. The weapon was handed over to the Select Committee on Ordnance, that they might test its powers. The Members of that Committee made various suggestions, and the result was that Mr. Goddard manufactured several other breech-loading cannon and sent them to the Government; and at last he invented a gun which was said by the Government and by the Select Committee to be as perfect a gun as could at that time be found. Mr. Goddard thought that having found out what was wanted he was in a position to command the attention of the Government, He offered to the Government that they

  1251
  should take the gun to Shoeburyness and fire 500 rounds from it without cleaning, the only condition being that they should put a wet sponge down it. Mr. Goddard described the merits of his invention in the Petition, from which he would read the following passage:—
  "This cannon was taken to Shoeburyness, General Cator, the president, and Colonel W. H. Pickering, the secretary, and other Members of the Select Committee attending, and that it was then and there loaded and fired 360 or 370 times successively without sponging or cleaning, and without any appliance whatever, not even the insertion of the wet sponge, as had been stipulated for. That these facts are in substance recorded in the Minutes of the Select Committee; that this cannon has met and satisfied the essential requirements of a breech-loading cannon; and that the qualities which it possesses are permanent and not transitory, and may be copied and extended to other cannon indefinitely. That General Cator, on the conclusion of the trial, declared that, the cannon worked well;' that neither he nor the other members of the Committee then present could see any fault in it, but that' all that be and the Committee could do was to commend it to the Government, which they would do.' That soon after this Report was sent in, petitioner was instructed by the War Department to get up a 32-pounder upon a similar construction, which was done, and the cannon was delivered at Woolwich, where it was proved, with three several charges of 18, 18, and 20 pounds of powder and ball, after which it was taken to Shoeburyness and loaded and fired many times, several times with 56 lb. oblong shot, without any obstruction arising and without exhibiting any defect. That this 32-pounder was mounted upon a carriage invented by petitioner, combining an inclined plane upon which the recoil took place, the force of which was retarded by strong india-rubber belts, which also drew it back into position, effecting the double object of preventing shock by recoil, and of placing the cannon in position, without the intervention of much, if any, manual labour, which plan of carriage, though it may not be brought literally into use, suggests valuable ideas to artillerists in Her Majesty's service, and these inventions have, as your petitioner believes, been to some extent applied. That Mr. Armstrong's cannon was accepted, and that of your petitioner put aside, the small one, which had been so successful, being placed in the Arsenal at Woolwich, where it remains at the present time. That after a large number of Armstrong cannon bad been manufactured, including 1,000 100-poundcrs, either finished or in process of manufacture, and a very large sum of money had been expended, and after they had proved defective in service in China or Japan, as was reported, Her Majesty's Secretary of War desired petitioner to go to Woolwich, and see if he could alter to his plan the 100-pounder Armstrong guns which were in preparation. That petitioner did go to Woolwich, and found that his breech-loading cannon, which had been lying at Woolwich, had been got out and put in order, and examined by the Select Committee of the Honourable Board of Ordnance, and your petitioner humbly represents that the request of the Minister of War to your petitioner
  1252
  to go to Woolwich and see if he could not alter the Armstrong gun to his plan, after such examination by the Select Committee had been made, was very conclusive evidence of its possessing substantial merits, and a very high compliment to his invention. That, in examining the butts prepared for the Armstrong 100-pounders, petitioner reported to the Select Committee that they could be finished on his plan, but would not be perfect guns, inasmuch as that they were, in his opinion, already weak where they should be strong, while the alteration would make them still weaker; but that there were at the Arsenal some 70-poundcr butts of a construction well adapted to the object. That the War Department accepted this Report, and requested petitioner to provide working drawings, and give such instructions to the Superintendent at Woolwich as would enable him to get up a 70-pounder on the proposed model. That petitioner considered such request in the nature of a command, and did provide the drawings, and attended with his machinist at Woolwich on several occasions to give instructions for getting up the cannon and to examine the execution of the work. That the difficulties which presented themselves at the outset in the construction of breech-loading cannon were, first, a mode of closing the breech; and, second, a mode of preventing the escape of gas upon the discharge, both of which are completely overcome in the cannon, produced by your petitioner; the former accomplished by two wedges acting in connection and nearly simultaneously, and the latter by an action to compensate for the stretching or expanding of the iron upon a discharge, in proof of the importance of which your petitioner has a written communication from the late Secretary of War, stating that the two inventions for effecting these objects were considered by the Department valuable. That petitioner has devoted to this invention some portion of valuable time during a period of fourteen years; that he has expended a sum of money which, with interest, amounts to more than £5,000; that he has placed in the possession of Her Majesty's Government most valuable inventions; and that he has had no expectation of profit or recompense from any other than Her Majesty's Government."
  The War Department continuing to refuse to make Mr. Goddard any remuneration for the £5,000 he had expended in what might be called the service of the Government, or for the valuable time he had given to perfecting breech-loading cannon, he applied for remuneration for the use of his invention in a gun called the "wedge-gun," which had been got up at Woolwich to supersede the Armstrong "hollow screw gun," whereupon Mr. Goddard was asked to go to Woolwich and examine that gun and point out definitely wherein his invention had been appropriated. Mr. Goddard accordingly did go to Woolwich and examine the wedge-gun, and found that the compensating bouche, or gas check, had been adopted without any change, and that the principle of the double wedge had been adopted with modifications. Several of

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  Mr. Goddard's minor contrivances had also keen appropriated. In order not to be deceived by his own judgment in examining the wedge gun Mr. Goddard took with him to Woolwich a machinist of great practical ability to inspect the gun, and to make a report thereon, of which the following is a copy:—
  "I, John Huggins, of Birmingham, machinist, at the request of Samuel Aspinwall Goddard, owner and proprietor of the breech-loading gun now lying at Woolwich Arsenal, and known by the name of the Church and Goddard gun, and of the inventions appertaining thereto, went to Woolwich to inspect the 64-pounder wedge-gun, permission having been obtained for that purpose, in order to ascertain in what respect, if any, it f embraced the inventions comprised in the said Church and Goddard gun, and having carefully examined the said 64-poundcr wedge-gun, make the following report, viz.:—1. I find that the sliding bouche or ring in the Goddard gun is adopted in the wedge-gun without any modification, with the exception that the bevil on the front interior of, the bouche is omitted, which bevil was not necessary to the invention, but was adopted simply as precautionary measure to insure the more certain action of the bouche. This mode of closing the breech, so as to prevent the escape of gas on discharge of the gun, I consider a most valuable invention, and I know of no other mechanical mode by which this indispensable object can be accomplished. 2. I find that the double wedge of the Goddard gun is applied to the wedge-gun, but in a modified form, and in my opinion in a greatly inferior form, inasmuch as that, among other disadvantages, its manipulation in the act of loading and filing would require double the time occupied by the Goddard gun in that performance; the principle, however, of the double wedge is fully adopted and applied. These two main features of, the Church and Goddard gun—viz., the compensating bouche and the double wedge—constitute the main features of the wedge-gun."
  The remainder of the Report was immaterial. That Report was sent to the Minister of War, who had, however, declined, or rather neglected, to make any compensation to him for the trouble and expense to which he had been put in aiding the Government in their endeavour to perfect a breech-loading cannon. Mr. Goddard said that the grounds for refusal by the War Department to make him any compensation were, first, that he had no legal claim; secondly, that much money had been expended over another breech-loading cannon with an unsatisfactory result; thirdly, that there was no immediate necessity for breech-loading cannon; fourthly, probably that his did not meet every requirement. With respect to the first of these grounds, Mr. Goddard submitted that claims in equity might be as strong as claims in law; with respect to the second and third, that he ought not to suffer be-
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  cause other inventions had failed; that although there might be no immediate occasion for a perfect breech-loading cannon, yet that all the reasons in favour of a breech-loading cannon which induced Her Majesty's Government to spend a large sum of money in producing them still remained in full force, and that the time might come when the want of them might be urgent, perhaps indispensable. While, with respect to the fourth, it might be said that if his gun was not perfect, it was either the first or second best that had been offered to the Government. No doubt the War Department was much troubled with useless inventions; but in the present instance a really valuable invention had been offered to them and had undoubtedly received their approbation. The Government should treat inventors like Mr. Goddard with liberality, in the same way as they had done inventors of small-arms.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONasked the hon. Member how long it was since Mr. Goddard's claim had been preferred at the War Department.
  MR. H. B. SHERIDANsaid, that it was very likely that the right hon. Gentleman was not in Office when the last application on Mr. Goddard's behalf had been made. Mr. Goddard's services had extended over a period of fourteen years. He (Mr. Sheridan) should be perfectly satisfied if the right hon. Gentleman would read over Mr. Goddard's petition and take the matter into consideration. As the right hon. Gentleman (Sir John Pakington) had intimated to him that he would refer to the matter presently, he (Mr. Sheridan) would not make a formal Motion.

ARMY—ROYAL GUN FACTORIES.

  MOTION FOR A COMMITTEE.
  MAJOR ANSON, referring to certain complaints he had made about a fortnight ago against the Manufacturing Departments in the War Office, said that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, in replying on that occasion, had stated that his charges were vague and indefinite, whereas, on the contrary, they were specific and even minute in their details. The right hon. Gentleman had further stated that he had received no Notice of the charges he had brought against those Departments; but when the right hon. Gentleman was about to bring forward the Army Estimates in April last he informed him that he had a

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  Motion on the Paper dealing with those Departments, against which he had very serious charges to bring. He had, however, postponed bringing forward these charges until the officers of those Departments had had time to investigate them. He had then written a letter to the War Department, containing the charges he had referred to, and he held in his hand the reply of the right hon. Gentleman to that communication. It was impossible, after such a communication, it could be said that he had not given fair Notice of the charges he was about to make. It was no pleasure to him to make charges against a public Department, and he did so simply from a sense of duty. It was unnecessary for the right hon. Gentleman to have got up the other evening and spoken of the injured feelings of distinguished officers to whom his charges did not in any respect apply. The right hon. Gentleman, in another part of his speech assumed that he (Major Anson) had been posted up in those charges by some outsider. He had undoubtedly gone to Major Palliser for information; but, at the same time, the right hon. Gentleman was equally inspired by the Royal Gun Factories. Major Palliser bad a right to have his case heard in that House, seeing that he was a most distinguished man, and that his inventions had saved the country many hundreds of thousands of pounds. He should conclude by moving for a Committee.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "a Committee of Five Members be appointed by the Committee of Selection to inquire into the following allegations:—That in 1864 the Royal Gun Factories, on being applied to by the Ordnance Select Committee for Estimates for cheaper 9-inch guns than those that were being made at that time, sent in erroneous comparative Estimates, on the strength of which the Ordnance Select Committee decided in favour of the gun proposed by the Royal Gun Factories; that a sample 9-inch gun was then made by the Royal Gun Factories, the details of the cost of which, on being compared with the details of the cost of similar guns manufactured two years afterwards, show great and apparently inexplicable discrepancies; and that like errors have been made by the Royal Gun Factories with regard to the comparative cost of new wrought-iron and converted guns, thereby entailing a heavy and unnecessary expense upon the country,"—(Major Anson.)
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  CAPTAIN VIVIAN CAPTAIN VIVIAN moved an Amendment to add the words—
  "That Sir John Pakington and Major Anson be added to the Committee, for the purpose of examining witnesses, and taking part in the proceedings, but without the power of voting."
  He said that he was convinced that his hon. Friend would not have brought forward this matter unless he had been thoroughly convinced of the truth of what he had stated; and it would be very unfair if his hon. Friend, and also the right hon. Baronet, had not the means of cross-examining the witnesses who would appear before the Committee. If the Inquiry were entered upon at all it should be fully and fairly carried out.
  COLONEL SYKESseconded the Amendment, of which he heartily approved, considering that it was for the interest of the Royal Gun Factories themselves that this investigation should take place, with a view to the removal of the suspicion which, no doubt, at present existed.
  MR. SPEAKERruled that the original Motion of the hon. and gallant Member (Major Anson) must be carried before the addition could be put to the House.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he regretted the aggrieved tone assumed by the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major Anson), because there was already I enough of unpleasantness connected with the subject to make it advisable that in the House at least it should be approached as calmly and deliberately as possible. His hon. and gallant Friend commenced his speech by a complaint which had already been answered by the statement of fact that he had given no Notice of his intention to bring charges against the officers of the Gun Factory. He (Sir John Pakington) was sorry to say he could not retract a word he had uttered in that respect. The proof of Notice now was, that the hon. and gallant Member had some communication with him (Sir John Pakington) in April last, in which he intimated that he had a series of charges to bring against this Department; but the hon. and gallant Member must forgive him if he did not at that time bear in mind a communication made to him in last April. Then he referred to a letter and an answer; but the letter was not directed to him, but to Major Palliser. He thought that a letter written with his (Sir John Pakington's) authority, in April last, to Major Palliser, could hardly be considered a notice of the speech that the hon. and gallant Member was going to

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  make in July. On Monday week his hon. and gallant Friend made a very important Motion consisting of three parts, every one of which deserved serious consideration, but the Notice of Motion contained: no intimation of the serious charges adverted to by him in April, nor that he was going to make those charges a portion of his speech in July; and therefore he (Sir John Pakington) adhered to the statement that he had no warning that the hon. and gallant Member was going to advert to the subject. The details of those accusations were exceedingly difficult to follow; but there was no doubt that the speech conveyed serious accusations, not only against the acts done in the Gun Factory, but against the motives of the officers, and the noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington) said that the charges were so serious that they were bound in fairness to make them the subject of inquiry. Considering what had fallen from the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire, he had certainly expected some definite Notice would have been given; indeed, without wishing to introduce any asperity into the discussion, he was bound to say he had reason to complain of the course his hon. and gallant Friend took. The Notice had first appeared last Wednesday for the following Friday; but its terms were very vague, and his hon. and gallant Friend failed to persevere with it. On Monday, a week after the accusations had been made, another Notice appeared on the Paper; but his hon. and gallant Friend did not persevere with that, and a third Notice stood on the Paper for Tuesday last; again, notwithstanding he was present to meet the charge, his hon. and gallant Friend did not appear. Thus, after no less than three distinct Notices of Motion had passed by, the House was on Thursday called on to consider the accusation made last Monday week. Respecting the substance of the Motion he had no objection to offer; he was quite ready to assent to the appointment of the Committee in whatever shape might appear best to the House. He could not, however, refrain from reminding the House that the terms of the Motion did not touch the gravest point of the accusations made on Monday week; he trusted those allegations would be considered by a Committee, and he felt very confident the officers concerned would be able to give a satisfactory answer to every one of them. The gallant officers concerned now stated that those imputa-
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  tions could be explained in the fullest and most satisfactory manner. What they complained of was the imputation of unworthy motives. His hon. and gallant Friend imputed motives which they considered to be most dishonourable. One of their imputations was understood to be that when the gentlemen referred to found there was a desire to employ the trade they immediately altered their prices. There was another allegation which had reference to a particular gun; but he observed that this allegation was not included in the Motion of his hon. and gallant Friend. His Motion did not touch it, and he hoped he was not going too far when he said that in his opinion his hon. and gallant Friend must allow him to consider those parts of his allegations which were not included in his Motion as practically and intentionally withdrawn. The feelings of honourable men were very much hurt at those imputations. His noble Friend the Member for the East Riding (Lord Hotham), to whom all in that House were so much indebted, thought there was an objection to having the proposed Committee nominated by the Committee of Selection. That being so, he felt it right to inform the House that the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major Anson) was in no way responsible for that mode of nomination. He himself must take that responsibility; and his reason for suggesting that the Committee of Selection should nominate ill this case was his strong feeling that as the Inquiry was to be in the nature of a judicial one, there should be no room for the slightest suspicion that there was anything like party or bias in the Committee. However, in respect to the manner in which the Committee should be named, he was in the hands of the House. With respect to the addition to the Committee proposed by his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Truro (Captain Vivian), he must, for himself, beg to decline to be put on the Committee. In the first place, his numerous engagements s would interfere with his serving on the Committee; and, in the next place, he should prefer not to do so in consequence of his impressions on the subject itself. Then, he thought, it would be difficult for him to find any Member of that House to conduct the case on the other side who had gone so fully into the subject and was in possession of so many of the details as the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield. That duty might be discharged by Colonel

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  Campbell; but as that gallant officer was not a Member of the House, he did not know whether he would be competent to propose Colonel Campbell as one of the Committee. His own opinion was that five Members of that House, carefully and impartially selected, would be quite competent to give a satisfactory decision in the case.
  LORD HOTHAMbegged to be understood as not wishing to offer the slightest Opposition to the proposed inquiry when he expressed a hope that the Committee would not be nominated in the way proposed by the hon. and gallant Member (Major Anson). When the Committee of Selection had to nominate a Committee, it was their duly to find Members free from any connection with the subject to be investigated. It might so happen, therefore, that the Members appointed were entirely ignorant of the subject; but it must be their own fault if they remained long so, because, on entering the Committee-room, they found themselves confronted by numerous counsel whose duty it was to bring forward the facts on both sides. But in the case of the Inquiry, as proposed by the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield it would be quite different. If five Gentlemen entirely unconnected with and knowing nothing of the subject were selected there would be no counsel or no agents to bring the matter before them. The hon. and gallant Member for Truro (Captain Vivian) proposed an attempt to remedy that inconvenience by moving that two Gentlemen should be appointed—one to represent one side and the other to represent the other side—who should take part in all the proceedings, but abstain from voting. From his own experience in other cases, he was of opinion that a Committee formed in that way was a Committee of the worst possible kind for investigating a matter requiring examination. He thought that no Member should be placed on a Committee to take part in its proceedings, and at the same time to be relieved from the responsibility of voting. The proposed Committee was to investigate a subject of great public importance, and he could not see why it should not be selected by the House in the usual manner In this way a Committee might be selected to conduct the Inquiry fairly and impartially. Necessarily the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield would be nominated on one side, and he could not but think that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War
  1260
  would be able to name a Member to whom such information might he supplied from the War Office as would enable him to see justice done. He begged to add that he thought a Committee of seven would be quite large enough, and that the sittings of the Committee ought to be continuous pending the Inquiry.
  LORD ELCHO, on the part of the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield, who could not speak again, explained that the hon. and gallant Member had waited for a day or two in order to see whether the Inquiry would be proposed by the Secretary of State for War. The hon. and gallant Member having made the charges thought the investigation ought to be originated by the War Department. As regarded the imputation of motives, the hon. and gallant Member entirely eschewed the accuracy of the view taken by the right hon. Baronet of what he had said; but he was content to leave the question of motives to be decided by the Committee. His hon. and gallant Friend had brought no charges against any individual, but only generally against the system, and he was quite prepared to have his allegations thus tested before a Committee. As regarded the trial of this question he (Lord Elcho) confessed that the course suggested by his noble Friend opposite (Lord Hotham) appeared to be the right one.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONexpressed his readiness to act upon the suggestion which had been thrown out by the noble Lord (Lord Hotham).
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Another Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "a Committee of Seven Members be appointed to inquire into the following allegations:—That in 1864 the Royal Gun Factories, on being applied to by the Ordnance Select Committee for Estimates for cheaper 9-inch guns than those that were being made at that time, sent in erroneous comparative Estimates, on the strength of which the Ordnance Select Committee decided in favour of the gun proposed by the Royal Gun Factories; that a sample 9-inch gun was then made by the Royal Gun Factories, the details of the cost of which, on being compared with the details of the cost of similar guns manufactured two years afterwards, show great and apparently inexplicable discrepancies; and that like errors have been made by the Royal Gun Factories with regard to the comparative cost of new wrought-iron and converted guns, thereby entailing a heavy and unnecessary expense upon the country: "—(Major Anson.)
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.
  Words added.
  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Ordered, That a Committee of Seven Members be appointed to inquire into the following allegations:—That in 1864 the Royal Gun Factories, on being applied to by the Ordnance Select Committee for Estimates for cheaper 9-inch guns than those that were being made at that time, sent in erroneous comparative Estimates, on the strength of which the Ordnance Select Committee decided in favour of the gun proposed by the Royal Gun Factories; that a sample 9-inch gun was then made by the Royal Gun Factories, the details of the cost of which, on being compared with the details of the cost of similar guns manufactured two years afterwards, show great and apparently inexplicable discrepancies; and that like errors have been made by the Royal Gun Factories with regard to the comparative cost of new wrought-iron and converted guns, thereby entailing a heavy and unnecessary expense upon the country.—(Major Anson.)
  And, on July 18, Select Committee nominated as follows:—Major ANSON, Mr. BAGGALLAY, Mr. HOWES, Mr. SCOURFIELD, Mr. SAMUDA, Mr. BAZLEY, and Mr. LAIRD:—Three to be the quorum.
  Resolved, That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee of Supply.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

ARMY—SOLDIERS' ORPHANS.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  COLONEL NORTHrose to move an humble Address to Her Majesty—
  "That She will be graciously pleased to direct that an Institution shall be established to receive and educate the Orphan Daughters of Non-commissioned Officers and Soldiers of our Army."
  The hon. and gallant Member referred to the Chelsea Asylum, which was established by his Royal Highness the Duke of York in 1801. The rules laid down for the admission of children into that asylum, in accordance with the Royal Warrant of the 26th of April, 1805, were as follows:—
  "In the selection of children preference shall be given in general—first, to orphans; secondly, to those whose fathers have been killed or have died on foreign service; thirdly, to those who have lost their mothers and whose fathers are absent on service abroad; fourthly, to those whose fathers are ordered on foreign service, or whose parents have other children."
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  The next Warrant was that of 1809, which was to the following effect:—
  "Whereas, from the extent of our army and the great proportion thereof usually employed on foreign service, it is become highly expedient to make a further provision for the maintenance and education of distressed children of non-commissioned officers and soldiers belonging to our regular forces, our will and pleasure is that the number to be admitted into our said asylums shall be extended to 792 boys and 348 girls, making in the whole 1,140 children."
  Now, at that time our army numbered 216,179 men, including, however, a large number of foreign subsidies, while our present force amounted to 204,037. The next Warrant was that of 1811, which said—
  "By his Royal Highness the Prince Regent of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, our will and pleasure is, in the name and on behalf of His Majesty, that the number to be admitted into the said asylum shall be extended to 800 boys and 400 girls, making in all 1,200 children, exclusive of the infant establishment in the Isle of Wight."
  The question was brought before the House on the 4th of May, 1854, when the late Lord Herbert was Secretary for War. The complaint then made was that 120 orphan boys had been taken from Chelsea Asylum for the purpose of making room for the schoolmasters of the army, and the moment the House of Commons became aware that the fact was so he ordered the schoolmasters to be removed and the 120 boys restored to the asylum. He would read an extract from the speech which was made on that occasion by Lord Herbert. He said—
  "About 350 children were now received within the walls of the asylum; while at a former period, when there was also a similar establishment at Southampton, it had accommodated 1,222. It had, however, been found, both here and at Greenwich, that the experiment of educating a large number of girls together had proved a complete failure, so far as regarded their future course of life. The experiment had consequently been abandoned, and he should feel great hesitation in renewing it. With regard to boys, the case was different."—(3 Hansard, cxxxii. 1280.]
  The answer which he had returned at the time to that statement was that he was not aware that soldiers' daughters were more likely to turn out ill-conducted in after-life than any other portion of Her Majesty's subjects, and that if they had turned out badly it must be owing to the grossest negligence on the part of those who had charge of them. Now, what he had then said he believed to be perfectly true, and he had himself for many years been a subscriber to an asylum the success of which corroborated that view, although

  1263
  his attention had never been sufficiently directed to the admirable manner in which it worked until this year. The establishment to which he referred was called the Soldiers' Daughters' Home. It was instituted in 1855 by Major the Hon. Powys Keck, at the termination of the Crimean war. General Boileau was Chairman of the Committee, 460 had been admitted; 176 were now in the house, and 146 had been placed in domestic service. A prize was given to girls who remained two years in the same situation; ninety-two entered service prior to 1866, of whom forty-seven, or nearly one in every two, have had prizes. Girls who had left the asylum since 1866 were not yet eligible to receive the prize. Besides the girls placed in service three had been trained as schoolmistresses, and two obtained Queen's Scholarships by competition. It was supported by voluntary contributions, and there were thirteen endowed scholarships—eight of the Royal Artillery Crimean Fund, two of the Crimean Endowment Fund, and three of the Havelock Memorial Fund, for one girl each from the 5th, 64th, and 84th Regiments. The first two were perpetual; the third expired in 1882. Was not the success of the Establishment, as shown by those figures, a proof, he would ask, of the justice of his reply to the statement of Lord Herbert that if the girls had turned out badly under the charge of the Government it was owing to some negligence on the part of those whose duty it was to look after them? He hoped that under these circumstances his right hon. Friend at the head of the War Department would be disposed to view the Motion which he was about to make with favour. Some time must of course elapse before the institution required could be satisfactorily established; but might it not, in the meantime, be possible to grant a sum of money to such an institution as that which he had just mentioned on the understanding that it should receive a certain number of children until another asylum for them could be provided? There were a great number of vacancies in the institution, because its funds did not permit of the admission of more girls. There was an amount of £29,000 of prize money Arising from the Crimean War which had not been distributed to the troops owing to the smallness of the sum; but it was as much their right as their pay, and he would suggest that part of this sum might be granted to this institution.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to direct that an Institution shall be established to receive and educate the Orphan Daughters of Non-commissioned Officers and Soldiers of our Army,"—(Colonel North.)
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he fully appreciated the excellent motives which induced the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel North) to make the present proposal; but he appeared to have forgotten the establishment at Wandsworth, in full operation under the Patriotic Fund Commissioners. Past experience threw doubts on the success of such experiments; but he had reason to suppose that the establishment at Hampstead was successful, and he believed also that the one at Wandsworth would prove successful. The Duke of York's School, which was removed to Southampton, was afterwards broken up, in consequence of the girls from it turning out badly; and they had similar experience in reference to a similar establishment in Ireland. In the establishment at Wandsworth 300 orphan daughters of soldiers and sailors were carefully brought up. Of course, the children of those engaged in the Crimean War had the first chance of admission; but their number was being rapidly diminished by the course of time, and he thought that the House, before acceding to the present Motion, had better wait to see whether the hopes entertained with regard to the two establishments he had just mentioned were confirmed before proceeding to further experiments.
  COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, he thought the Patriotic Fund had the best title to State assistance, and the Commissioners would be glad to extend their operations if possible.
  An hon. MEMBER said, that there was a remarkably well-conducted institution for the orphan daughters of soldiers near Dublin, and he thought, if funds were given to such establishments by the Government, it would have a fair claim for assistance.
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, he would withdraw his Motion.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

ARMY—CONTROL DEPARTMENT.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  COLONEL JERVISrose to move an Address for—
  "Copy of the Draft Regulations for the Control Department originally sent in by the War Office to the Treasury, together with any memoranda thereupon by the Assistant Under Secretary of State for War, together with the reply thereto by the Controller in Chief."
  In the discussion the other evening he had observed that it appeared from the Papers on the table as if the Treasury did not desire that Sir Henry Storks should remain at his post as Controller-in-Chief; and the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for War then told him that he laboured under a most extraordinary misapprehension in supposing that the Government, after having selected Sir Henry Storks on account of his high character and distinguished abilities, had now turned round on that distinguished officer and declared that they I did not want him. He (Colonel Jervis) was not in the habit of speaking without a knowledge of the facts to which he referred, and he now declared that every word of his statement was correct. The Papers moved for by the hon. and gallant Member for Truro (Captain Vivian) would distinctly prove all the allegations he had made. They would show that the right hon. Baronet, up to a certain period, worked with entire cordiality with Sir Henry Storks, and that suddenly that gallant officer found himself thrown over, the regulations framed by him being cast aside, If he was correctly informed there were, in fact, two Secretaries of State for War—one recognized by the House and the country; but there was another at the War Office, who was more powerful than the Secretary of State for War—who that individual was he did not know. It could not be the Director of Ordnance, nor the Accountant General, nor Sir Edward Lugard; but the Papers asked for would alone tell them who this great power within the; Department was. It was right that the House should know who were the ruling powers of the Department. What he now wished to state was that he was not incorrect in his statement on a previous evening; but that the right hon. Baronet was not accurately informed by those whose duty it was to give him proper information.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, "an
  1266
  humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, a Copy of the Draft Regulations for the Control Department originally sent in by the War Office to the Treasury, together with any memoranda there upon by the Assistant Under Secretary of State for War, together with the reply thereto by the Controller in Chief,"—(Colonel Jervis,)
  —instead thereof.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, this question of Army Control could not be too often considered. It was not his intention to find fault with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, for in all communications with his right hon. Friend he had always found him most anxious to promote the efficiency of the service; and he believed that if the right hon. Baronet could have had his will, and if the Control Department had been established in accordance with the Letter of the 8th of March, there would be no reason for any Member of that House to find fault with what had occurred. There existed an erroneous impression among a portion of the public, who supposed that this controversy was a fight between the civil and military officers of the War Office, the latter endeavouring to place the military element above the civil clement. He held in his hand an article which appeared recently in the Saturday Review, which clearly showed I either that the public mind had been led astray upon this question, or that there was an animus manifested by certain authorities in the War Department which was thoroughly discreditable to all parties concerned. It was said in that article—
  "The adverse decision of the Treasury is of: course, for all practical purposes, an end of the really great career which was open to Sir Henry Storks and General Balfour at the War Office. They had the chance of distinguishing themselves by the introduction of great reforms into our Army Administration. They have used their opportunity to serve a project for intensifying the already intolerable control which the Horse Guards indirectly exercises over the War Office. If they had been left undisturbed, not a civilian would have remained six months in any position of importance, and the army would have governed the Minister of War through his exclusively military subordinates, and have risen superior to Parliamentary control. What it would have cost under such a system no one can guess; but happily the chief agents in the scheme have defeated themselves by excess of zeal. There is now little more to fear, for, though discussion may be burked in the present Parliament, military domination is the last thing which the new House is likely to endure. Whether Sir Henry Storks and his assistant will retire on the significant hint of the Treasury, or will cling a little longer to the rank and emoluments of a position which they have not known how to fill, is very immaterial."

  1267
  He was inclined to think that article was inspired by some high authority in the War Department of the Government. From what he had heard from the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the War Office, he believed there existed in its Departments a great jealousy of the new office of Controller-in-Chief. which was to control them all. It appeared that an attempt had been made to set aside the intentions of Lord Strathnairn's Committee in favour of the appointment of one man to control all these Departments under the authority of the Secretary of State for War. Sir Henry Storks, who was selected for the post he now filled as being the most competent man in the country to re-organize these unorganized Departments and to tiring them under same system of control, and General Balfour had given evidence before Lord Strathnairn's Committee, and a scheme by which there should be one Controller subject to the Secretary of State for War had been recommended by the Committee, which was approved by some of the most competent authorities on the subject. That scheme had been submitted to the Secretary of State for War, who approved it, and wrote a letter to the Treasury asking them to endorse it, and stating that in the event of their doing so it might be put into immediate operation on the 1st of April in Ireland, where it was proposed to try it in the first instance. This letter from the Secretary of State was met by objections on the part of the Treasury which were accepted by the right hon. Gentleman, and the result was that they had now in operation a system of control accepted by the Government and by the right hon. Gentleman in place of that proposed by Sir Henry Storks and General Balfour. The right hon. Gentleman shook his head at that statement; but he could not say that the present system had received the approval of those gallant gentlemen. He (Lord Elcho) should be glad to hear his explanation on the matter. A great deal of misapprehension appeared to prevail respecting the alleged desire among certain officers at the War Office to place the military element above the civil element; but he believed that the various Departments of the War Office would be much better and more economically administered if the duties were performed by officers and noncommissioned officers of the army, as was the case in every other well-regulated military Department, such as those in Prussia and France. The right hon. Gen-
  1268
  tleman had advocated the principle of giving higher pay for more work; but, on the contrary, he believed that by the system of employing half-pay officers in the higher classes and non-commissioned officers in the lower grades they would obtain infinitely better work for a less amount of pay, while it would prove a stimulus to enlistment in the army. In fact, he believed that it would prove a most desirable investment of the public money to buy up all the interests of the present clerks, in order to appoint military men in their room, and he thought the scheme one well worthy of the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman. In the event of the various offices being filled by military men, there would be no danger of the military element becoming insubordinate, or of its attempting to become superior to the Secretary of State for War, who would still be the complete autocrat of his Department, and superior to every other authority at the War Office—even to the Horse Guards and the Commander-in-Chief. The Duke of Cambridge, in giving evidence before the Commission of 1860, said, in answer to Question 4,105, that he should recognize the superior authority of the Secretary of State for War in all cases. It was clear that the Secretary of State for War exercised complete control over the Commander-in-Chief, except in matters of discipline, and even in such instance the ultimate appeal was to the Secretary of State for War. Sir Charles Trevelyan, himself a civilian, had said after the Crimean War that military men should be employed to a largo extent in the War Office. But, instead of appointing one Controller-in-Chief, it was proposed to establish under the new system practically two Controllers, one of whom might be a financial gentleman, who, though thoroughly competent to administer the monetary affairs of the Department, might be, on the other hand, utterly ignorant of the means of securing military efficiency, or incapable of forming a sound opinion as to the necessity or otherwise of the recommendations of the Controller-in-Chief. He could not see the necessity for the appointment of one Controller General who was to exercise control with regard to military matters, and of another who was to exercise control over financial matters. The Secretary of State who was responsible to Parliament would still have the control of the Controller-in-Chief. The Report was full of passages which pointed to the Controller as the sole

  1269
  officer who, in the opinion of the Committee, should govern the whole Department, being responsible alone to the Secretary of State. The practical result of the recommendations of Lord Strathnairn's Committee was that the Secretary of State for War at home and the general officers commanding abroad would have to deal in all matters relating to the administration of the army with one responsible officer. Last night, meeting Lord Strathnairn, he asked him whether he approved the present position of this question; and he was bound to say, giving the utmost credit to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War for the excellence of his intentions, he should be very much surprised if, in the discussion which was to come on tonight on this subject in the other House of Parliament, that noble Lord (Lord Strathnairn) did say that he approved this system, or that it did give effect to the Report of his Committee. On the contrary, he believed be would say that he considered the whole scheme of the Controllership they had laid down after the most careful inquiry had been cut out, and that the scheme as originally proposed by his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War had been nullified by the subsequent proceedings. In conclusion, he thought this subject was of an importance that could not he exaggerated, and on which the public were greatly mistaken.
  SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHERurged the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir John Pakington), in justice to his Department as well as to himself, to accede to the Motion of his hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Jervis), in order that the country might know what were really his views upon the matter at issue.
  CAPTAIN VIVIANdenied that he had ever contended that the Controller-in-Chief was to be equally powerful with the Secretary of State for War. On the contrary, he had always expressed the opinion that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War should possess entire and supreme control over his own and every other Department connected with the army. He asked the right hon. Gentleman whether there was any material difference between the draft regulations that were withdrawn and the regulations which were now being acted upon. He understood that they were substantially the same. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accede to his hon. and gallant Friend's wishes.
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, that looking
  1270
  forward to a much larger change in the relations of the principal officers of our military Departments, he only regarded the present controversy as relating to a temporary expedient. But even as to that it was undesirable to adopt false principles; and he could not too strongly protest against the doctrine laid down by his noble Friend—that the Accountant General was the only person to whom the Secretary of State should refer as to financial matters involved in proposals by a Controller-in-Chief, or other administrative officer. When his noble Friend referred to Sir Charles Trevelyan, he forgot that that Gentleman had proposed that an Under Secretary of State should be the financial adviser of the War Minister.
  SIR. JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, it was impossible for him to remain silent after what had fallen from the noble Lord opposite (Lord Elcho). This conversation had been commenced by his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Harwich (Colonel Jervis), and he (Sir John Pakington) presumed that he was not aware he was acting in violation of the rules of the House, or the Speaker would have interrupted him when he was making his statement. It struck him, however, that his hon. and gallant Friend was not acting in accordance with their usual practice in the course he had taken. His hon. and gallant Friend commenced his observations by referring to a speech of his (Sir John Pakington's), made in that House more than a week ago, and then, passing on to a speech made by himself in reply, arrived at the comfortable conclusion that he (Colonel Jervis) was right, and he (Sir John Pakington) was wrong. His hon. and gallant Friend distinctly stated, in reference to the Papers laid before the House, that the Government had turned round upon Sir Henry Storks, and displayed a desire to get rid of him.
  COLONEL JERVIS: What I said was, that it would appear to be so from the reading of the Papers.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he had noticed that in strong language. He said such a statement was wild, unfounded, and unjustifiable. He did not shrink from one of these words, but was rather disposed to reiterate them. The statement was utterly unfounded. He repeated that the most harmonious feeling existed between him and Sir Henry Storks, and he should be base indeed if he had acted in any way inconsistent with that respectful feeling which he had ever evinced towards that

  1271
  distinguished Gentleman. When then, the hon. and gallant Member came down to the House and made a statement to the effect that, finding Sir Henry Storks had served his (Sir John Pakington's) purpose, he was trying to get rid of him, the Member for Harwich was casting upon him (Sir John Pakington) an aspersion which, if he did not at once repudiate in the strongest possible manner, he should be unworthy to hold the Office which he now filled. The hon. and gallant Member went on to allude to another power, which, he said, was equal to that of the Secretary of State within the War Office. It was much to be lamented that his hon. and gallant Friend should have founded such statements upon mere idle gossip picked up here and there. He had never heard such a remarkable departure from anything like an accurate knowledge of what was the real state of the War Office as was shown in the speeches both of the hon. and gallant Member for Harwich (Colonel Jervis) and the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho). There was no such rivalry of opinion going on in the War Office as was supposed from the speeches alluded to. Now, his noble Friend had read an extract from the Saturday Review, and all he (Sir John Pakington) could say was, that he had never seen that article. [Lord ELCHO: I did not say so.] He could not help feeling that the course pursued by his noble Friend was an unusual one. He (Sir John Pakington) was sorry to say he had observed in certain letters which appeared lately in the London Press a combination of personality and misstatement regarding War Office affairs which, in the interest of the public generally, he deeply regretted; because, however erroneous those statements were, they were sure to be accepted as facts by a certain portion of the public. The noble Lord said he believed that the article in the Saturday Review was inspired by some person high up in the War Office.
  LORD ELCHO: No; what I said was, I do not think it impossible that the article was inspired. I did not say that I had reason to believe it was inspired.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: Well, that was pretty much the same thing. Now, he refused to believe that anyone in the War Office could be so base and disloyal as to publish newspaper attacks upon the Department with which he was connected. He would not deny that he had heard such statements before, that he had been told
  1272
  that these personalities and attacks had proceeded from some one connected with the War Office; but he for one did not believe that statement, and all he could say in reply was that if the man were pointed out he should know how to deal with him. The noble Lord said he believed that some differences had arisen between him and Sir Henry Storks and General Balfour. [Lord ELCHO denied having made such statement.] He could only say there was not the slightest foundation for such an insinuation. He had further to express his regret that those Members of the House who were most desirous to see this system of control carried out should come down to that House and throw difficulties in his way, and do more than any others to endanger the prosperity and success of the working of the scheme. It was idle to suppose that such a large change as was contemplated could be effected without great difficulty and perhaps inconvenience to certain gentlemen of high position in the office, but the difficulty was much increased by the course which was pursued by Gentlemen who ought to give him all the encouragement in their power instead of throwing obstacles in his way. This was the more to be regretted, inasmuch as the objections urged were for the most part futile and unfounded, for he did not believe that any change was ever inaugurated with greater promise of success. The hon. and gallant Member for Harwich (Colonel Jervis) had now asked him, as the hon. and gallant Member for Truro (Captain Vivian) had asked him the other evening, to produce a Copy of the Regulations which were first drawn up, the Correspondence written by Mr. Galton, and the answers of Sir Henry Storks. Personally he should not have slightest objection to their production; indeed, he should be pleased to see them upon the table of the House. But he would ask hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House to remember that if he were to accede to this Motion he would be establishing a precedent of the most dangerous and objectionable character. Whenever any departmental change was introduced Parliament had a right to be informed of the change; but to demand the production of such Correspondence as that now asked—documents which must be looked upon to a great extent as private in their character—would be establishing a precedent which could not but injuriously affect the best interests of the public service of this country, Believing that such would be the result, he could not assent to

  1273
  the Motion made by his hon. and gallant Friend.
  COLONEL JERVISsaid, that he felt bound not to withdraw his Motion for the production of these Papers.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, he trusted the House would consider before giving a decision on a point which was of the utmost importance. If the House were to insist upon the production of Papers and Correspondence which concerned the preparation and preliminary consideration of measures, they would thereby put a stop to that freedom of criticism which was always invited on such occasions, and which contributed so much to the perfection of public measures. The moment that it became known that the opinions of those most competent to judge of public measures, and who were invited to express them, were likely to be produced in that House, great disadvantage to the public service would result, because everybody would naturally shrink from the responsibility he would have to encounter. Instead, then, of the Government having the advantage of the suggestions which they were in the habit of receiving, and the information and criticism which better enabled them to carry out any changes which they contemplated in the administration of public affairs, they would find themselves in the position of having to deal with merely mechanical persons, who would afford only information upon points on which they were well up, and they (the Government) would lose the advantage arising from those large spontaneous suggestions, and from that general information which tended greatly to the advantage of the public interests. He trusted then, for the sake of the public service, that the House would not assent to this demand for the production of the Papers called for.
  Question "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.
  MR. DISRAELI, referring to several other Amendments on the Paper, said, it was really of the utmost importance that the House should go into Committee upon the Army Vote. He hoped that the hon. Member for Cashel (Mr. O'Beirne), who had a Motion on the Paper respecting the Shoeburyness experiments, would waive his right, in order to allow the Vote in question to be taken in Committee.
  MR. O'BEIRNEsaid, he would withdraw his Motion, on the understanding that the right hon. Gentleman would give him
  1274
  an opportunity of bringing that most important matter, of which he had given Notice, under the consideration of the House, before the close of the Session.
  MR. DISRAELI: The hon. Member can bring on his Motion upon the Report of Supply under any circumstances.
  MR. O'BEIRNEexpressed his dissatisfaction with such an arrangement.
  MR. DISRAELI: The House will sit on Saturday, and I have no doubt the hon. Gentleman will be then afforded the opportunity he desires.
  MR. CANDLISHasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would put down the Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill as the first Order of the Day for that evening, it having been fixed for the Morning Sitting? ["No, no!"] That Bill and the Irish Registration Bill must, he presumed, become law before the close of this Session, the Government having pledged themselves to carry them. The Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill might fairly take precedence that evening of the Cattle Market Bill. ["No, no!"]
  MR. MILNER GIBSONdesired to remind the House that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had declared that all business connected with the question of Reform would be the first to be wound up. The Irish Registration Bill was not only connected with Reform, but its immediate passing was a necessity. There could, therefore, be no reason why it should not have precedence of the Cattle Market Bill. ["No, no!"] He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would adhere to the declarations which he had made, and either proceed with Reform measures or assign some intelligible reasons for deviating from that course.
  MR. DISRAELI: I repeat it is the determination of Her Majesty's Government to carry the Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill, and all I can say is this—I will not advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament until that measure is definitely decided upon by the House. With that view alone I propose a two o'clock Sitting of the House to morrow in order to go on with that Bill. With regard to the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Milner Gibson) on the subject of Corrupt Practices, I do not think that I have said anything to justify that phrase as a description of my policy. My wish is to fulfil the engagements I have made with a number of Gentlemen on both sides of the House. I

  1275
  have, therefore, fixed this evening for the Metropolitan Foreign Cattle Market Bill, and I feel myself bound to adhere to that arrangement. I do not, of course, know how long the discussion upon that subject may take; but perhaps it may terminate before the usual time of adjournment. In that case we shall take the Irish Registration Bill, which is on the Paper. In the new fervour for Reform principles of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Milner Gibson)—of which by the way he gave us very little taste during the general discussions—he seems to throw a doubt upon our sincerity in those questions immediately connected with it. He may, however, rest assured that the Irish Registration Bill will pass this Session, because without it we cannot make the appeal to the country which we are so desirous of expediting. Allowing this arrangement, then, to stand, I propose that on to-morrow at two o'clock we shall proceed with the Corrupt Practices Bill.

  BRISTOL ELECTION.—QUESTION.
  MR. SERJEANT GASELEEsaid, that having given way to the Government on a former occasion on being told that he should have an opportunity of bringing this subject forward, he found that the pledge given by the Government had been fulfilled by his Motion being placed thirty-ninth on the Orders of the Day. Finding he should be out of Order in now bringing forward his Motion, he wished to ask the Solicitor General in the absence of the Attorney General, Whether it was his intention to prosecute those who had been guilty of bribery and other malpractices at the last Bristol election?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he had no doubt, though he had had no communication with the right hon. Gentleman on the subject, that the Attorney General had given consideration to this Question. He apprehended, however, that his learned Friend would think much further inquiry necessary before he could decide upon instituting proceedings, about the result of which it would be impossible to judge.
  MR. NEATEoffered his notes on the evidence taken before the Bristol Election Committee to the Attorney General, and assured him that the information they contained would enable him to prosecute a dozen persons without a moment's hesitation.

NATIONAL BOARD OF EDUCATION (IRELAND).—OBSERVATIONS.
SIR JOHN GRAYrose to call attention to the alterations recently made in the Second, Third, and Fourth Lessons issued to the Schools under the charge of the Board of National Education, Ireland; and to move for the Correspondence and Minutes of Evidence of the Proceedings in reference thereto. The hon. Member said it would be in the recollection of the House that at the close of last Session, when the Education Estimates were before the House, he raised a discussion with reference to primary education in Ireland; and he then showed conclusively that the mixed system of education was a mere myth, and the case he had on that occasion to bring under their notice afforded a remarkable illustration of the curious effect of attempting to prop up a rotten system, and of the false position that fraudulent system enforced the Commissioners to take. The illustrative case he had to adduce occurred in the city of Kilkenny, which he had the honour to represent. The Rev. Mr. Porter, a Presbyterian minister, casually visited the model school in that city, and complained that most improper passages were admitted to the lesson books and sanctioned by the Board. The first passage pointed out as improper, was a portion of the most exquisitely beautiful of the national ballads composed by the late Samuel Lover. That ballad, The Angel's Whisper, which was to be found on every Protestant drawingroom table in Ireland, and which is not less known or admired in England, gives a most truthful and touching picture of the love and faith which adorn the Irish peasant's home, was deemed improper by the rev. gentleman because it contained these words—
"Her beads while she numbered,
The baby still slumbered,
And smil'd in her face as she bended her knee:
'Oh! bless'd be that warning,
My child, thy sleep adorning,
For I know that the Angels are whispering with thee.
"'And while they are keeping
Bright watch o'er thy sleeping,
Oh! pray to them softly, my baby, with me,
And say thou would'st rather
They'd watch o'er thy father
For I know that the Angels are whispering with thee.'"
That was true to nature, and the Commissioners, recognizing the fact, have ordered

1277
a new edition of the second book, from which this improper ballad has been expunged, in conformity with Archbishop Whately's rule of shutting out every allusion to Catholic practices, and by degrees Protestantizing the children. The reverend censor proceeded then to the fourth book, and there he found a passage quoted from the old English chronicles, as translated by John S., descriptive of the death of an English Catholic Queen, Philippa. The dying Catholic Queen is described by the chronicler as making the sign of the Cross on her heart—and Lord Berners translated the passage in the same way—and commending her husband and children to the protection of Heaven. The Rev. Mr. Porter objected to this historical work, because it represented the dying Christian to have made the sign of the Cross, and the Commissioners, true to the ideas of mixed education, have falsified the quotation in a new edition, to please the bigotry of those who abhor the symbol of redemption. The third book came then under his censorship. It contained a description, by a Protestant historian, of one of the most remarkable of the Irish ecclesiastical sees—the old see of Glendalough, known to tourists as the Seven Churches. The historian referred to the monastic ruins, once beautiful, and dedicated to the service of God, but now in desolate decay, and because they were built by Catholics the rev. gentleman objected to its being said that they wore dedicated to God's service, and demanded that the description of an Irish ruin should be shut out from schools in which Irish children are taught. He (Sir John Gray) would not dwell on the moral of all this; the Commissioners complied with the demand, and the three books have been cancelled and withdrawn from every school in Ireland, and new editions substituted on the complaint of this most tolerant advocate of the mixed system.
THE EARL OF MAYOsaid, the Government were not responsible for the alterations made in the books referred to. If the hon. Gentleman would give a list of the Returns he required, he (the Earl of Mayo) would take care to furnish him with all the information he required.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, in reference to a Question put to him by the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Sheridan) at an early part of the day, he had only to say that Mr. Goddard's name was a long time before the War Office. If the hon. Member would communicate with him (Sir
1278
John Pakington) privately he would endeavour to satisfy him upon the subject he alluded to.
Main Question "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.

  SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Question again proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £389,800, be granted to Her Majesty (in addition to the sum of £81,000 already voted on account), towards defraying the Charge for Full Pay of Reduced and Retired Officers, and Half Pay, which will come in course of payment from the first day of April 1868 to the 31st day of March 1809, inclusive."
  GENERAL DUNNEcalled attention to the Report of the Committee on the Military Reserve Funds; and referred to the several schemes suggested for promoting retirement among officers of the Royal Artillery and Engineers, contending that the inducement to be offered to officers to retire should be equal to their hopes if they remained in the corps. The system of purchasing out the officers of the Engineers and of the Artillery with sums from a reserve fund to which they never had contributed was a most objectionable one, and had been condemned by a Committee who had gone very fully into the subject. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War would inform the House that they were going to put an end to this mode of purchasing out officers, and to do something towards carrying out the recommendations of the Committee on the subject.
  MR. CHILDERS, while admitting that the subject was a difficult one, and while not blaming the Government, thought at the same time that it was very unfortunate the War Department had not come to a decision in reference to the recommendations of the Committee to which the hon. and gallant General (General Dunne) had just referred. On the other question, nothing could be worse than the system under which the officers of non-purchase corps were now retired. A fixed sum was provided, out of which officers of a certain standing might or might not, according to their rank, receive annuities of £600 or £450 a year; but it was a farce to call this a system of retirement. The Committee recommended that there should be a fixed scale according to length of service, and that officers should be allowed to compound for the payments to

  1279
  which they would be entitled. The only thing the House had got before them in reference to the intentions of the Government was a Paper, drawn up by the actuaries and based upon speculations entirely gratuitous, as far as the Committee were concerned, on the part of gentlemen in the War Department and at the Horse Guards. It was true that some of these gentlemen came before the Committee, and the Committee had heard some of these speculations; but they never even alluded to them in their Report; and the Paper was perfectly useless so far as the House might want it. He must therefore disregard it as an authority in the discussion of the question. Even according to the view of the parties themselves the scheme was so absurd that it was impossible for reasonable men to deal with it. He hoped, seeing what ideas were in vogue in his office, that his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War would not commit Parliament and the country to any change in the present arrangements till next Session.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTON, in reply to the observations of the hon. and gallant Member (General Dunne), with reference to the reserve fund, said, that as the change involved in the Report of the Committee was a very important one he thought the best course to adopt, looking to the interests of the army was to consider it during the Recess. He had therefore applied to the Treasury and had obtained their sanction to deal with the reserve fund exactly as heretofore up to the time when the Estimates would be introduced nest year. By that time the Government would have made up their minds as to the course which they would be prepared to lake in reference to the fund. As to the observations which had fallen from his hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), he could only repeat what he had already stated, that it would be absolutely necessary before long to have a new plan of retirement for the non-purchase corps. The questions involved, however, were very complicated and difficult, and it was far more important that any scheme which was devised should be well done than that it should be done quickly. He would assure his hon. Friend (Mr. Childers) (hat no premature action would be taken upon the subject to which he referred, and that nothing would be done without the sanction of Parliament. He hoped the House would he content with his assurance that during the Recess he should give further consider-
  1280
  ation to the subject. There was in the Vote they were about to pass a sum of £5,000, being the second instalment of £10,000 for the Engineers; did the hon. Gentleman wish that that £5,000 should not be expended as was intended.
  MR. CHILDERS: That is distinctly my wish.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he had no objection to accept the suggestion.
  COLONEL JERVISsaid, he did not think the right hon. Baronet understood the subject. This £5,000 was part of £10,000 which should have been voted last year for the Engineers.
  MR. PACK-BERESFORDtrusted that the Committee would not consent to withdraw this £5,000.
  CAPTAIN ARCHDALLcomplained of the consolidation of barrack districts, thereby imposing additional duties on barrack masters for which they were inadequately paid.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the o'clock.

  IRELAND—CASE OF MICHAEL O'HANLON.—QUESTION.
  SIR JOHN GRAYsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Is it the fact that Michael O'Hanlon, formerly a resident in Belfast, and who has a wife and four children totally dependent for their support on his earnings as a working gardener, had been nearly eighteen months in prison; and, if so, if any reason can be assigned for not bringing him to trial or admiting him to bail?
  THE EARL OF MAYOsaid, that an Order for the discharge of Michael O'Hanlon was made out on the 8th of this month, and he had heard that morning that he had been discharged under that Order.

NATURALIZATION AND EXPATRIATION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether there has been any recent Correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States on the question of naturalization and expatriation; and, if so, whether he is willing to lay such Correspondence upon the Table of the House?
  LORD STANLEY: Sir, the House will probably Lave seen in some English newspapers the Despatch from, the United States' Government upon this subject, to which the Question of the hon. Member refers. That Despatch was placed in my hands a few days ago, and it appears to have been made public in America previous to its reaching this country. Before it came into my hands, I had written to the British Minister at Washington upon the subject—a Despatch which must have crossed that of Mr. Seward on its way to this country. In that Despatch I explained the views of Her Majesty's Government upon the question of naturalization as it now stands. In answer to the hon. Member's Question, I may say that I have no objection to lay that Despatch, as well as that of Mr. Seward, upon the table. I may also repeat what I have already stated in answer to a Question put to me in this House, that Her Majesty's Government are quite prepared to accept in principle the views of the naturalization question for which the United States' Government contend, and therefore I do not apprehend that any misunderstanding can arise out of it. We have declined, however, to enter into any treaty upon the subject just at present, for two reasons—firstly, because some legal details have to be arranged, and are now being considered by the Commission appointed for that purpose; and next because, even if we were to act irrespectively of the Report of that Commission, such a treaty would be perfectly useless until an Act of Parliament is passed to bring it into operation. I need not say that in the state of Business—not only as it is now but as it has been for the past month—it would have been useless to attempt to bring in so large and important a measure. If it should be my fortune to have any share in the Government next year, I shall be ready to introduce a Bill upon the subject in the new Parliament.

  METROPOLIS—NEW COURTS OF JUSTICE. —QUESTION.
  MR. ALDERMAN LAWRENCEsaid, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether notices will be served during the autumn on the owners of houses in Holywell Street, and also on the owners of houses in the line of a new street from the Strand to Lincoln's Inn Fields, on the west side of proposed New Law Courts, in order that a Bill may be brought
  1282
  in, during the next Session of Parliament, to provide approaches to the Bite of the New Courts of Justice by the removal of Holywell Street and the formation of a new street from the Strand to Lincoln's Inn Fields?
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, in reply, that the Royal Commissioners did not recommend the removal of the property referred to by the hon. Member for the approaches to the New Law Courts. And, however desirable it might be that these houses should be removed for metropolitan improvements, Her Majesty's Government had no intention of giving the notices with a view of bringing in a Bill for the purchase of the property next year.

IRELAND— FENIAN PRISONERS, WARREN AND COSTELLO.—QUESTION.
MR. J. STUART MILLsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If Her Majesty's Government will take into favourable consideration the question whether the time is arrived when the very heavy sentences passed on Warren and Costello, the only two persons of the crew of the Jackmell who have not been released, may be remitted or mitigated?
THE EARL OF MAYO, in reply, said, he was glad the hon. Member put the Question, because considerable misapprehension seemed to exist upon the subject. The two prisoners referred to were convicted for coming to Ireland in an armed vessel, and cruizing along the coast in order to raise an armed insurrection against the Queen. The only evidence given against them of their proceedings in the United States of America—was that they were members of the Fenian Brotherhood previous to the 5th of March, 1867, the date of overt acts connected with the rising in which their brother conspirators were engaged. That evidence was necessary to connect them with the Fenian society, and in accordance with the terms of the Treason Felony Act that brought them within the jurisdiction of this country, so that in reality their case did not differ in any considerable degree from those of the great mass of the Fenian prisoners tried and convicted in Ireland. He was afraid the time was hardly yet come when it would be possible to enter into anything like a general consideration of the sentences passed upon the Fenian prisoners with a view either to a commutation or a remission

1283
of their sentences, and, therefore, he did not see any exception in the case of these two prisoners.

IRELAND—INEQUALITY OF TAXATION

  QUESTION.
  MR. O'BEIRNEsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether his attention has been directed to the inequality of taxation between Great Britain and Ireland shown by Return No. 345, printed by Order of this House on the 22nd June last, by which it appears that the amount of Revenue for each £100 of assessed Property and Income Tax paid by Great Britain in the year 1854 was £23 18 s. 11¼d.; while that paid by Ireland was £27 15 s. 11 d.: the amount paid by Great Britain in 1861 was£21 9s. 5½d.; that paid by Ireland was £29 2s. 11½d.: and that paid by Great Britain in 1866 was £17 14 s.; while that paid by Ireland was £29 10 s. 7½d. per cent.: and, whether he proposes, during the Recess, to consider this inequality of taxation with a view to its being remedied?
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, in reply, that as the Question affected the Treasury, perhaps the House would permit him to answer the hon. Member's Question. The attention of Her Majesty's Government had been drawn to the Return lately moved for by the hon. Member, and an inquiry had been made and was being continued into the causes which appeared to show, on the face of a Return the hon. Member referred to in his Question, what was certainly not in accordance with the common impression, that the taxation of Ireland was in a higher ratio than that of England. One cause probably that tended to that was that the basis of Schedule A in Ireland was notoriously lower than the basis of Schedule A in England.

METROPOLIS—PARK LANE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GREGORYsaid, he would beg to ask the hon. Member for Bath, Whether the Board of Works are going to pull down the public houses on the eastern side of Park Lane, since the proposal to widen the Lane through Hamilton Place has been rejected?
  MR. TITEsaid, in reply, that in 1864 an application, which was refused, was
  1284
  made to the Government to make a communication through the Park. The same scheme was submitted to the Government by Mr. Snell, but with no better success. In 1865 the Board of Works introduced a Bill to open Hamilton Place; but it was opposed by Mr. Gore on the part of the Government, and after being referred to a Select Committee, it was rejected. In 1866 the Board of Works brought in a Bill to open up Park Lane by taking down Gloucester House. In 1866–7 there were no means of carrying out the improvement through the Coal and Wine duties, and the Bills of 1866 and 1867 had to be withdrawn. The sanction of the Government having been this year obtained for the continuance of the Coal and Wine duties, a Bill was brought in but the plan of taking down Gloucester House was unfortunately rejected unanimously by the Select Committee. The question was, therefore, still open, and the possibility of widening the other side of Park Lane was under consideration, and also the suggestion of the Committee of 1868. Not a moment would be lost in considering the question by the Board of Works, and he hoped next Session to be able to bring in a Bill by which this desirable improvement might be carried out, but certainly not by the removal of Gloucester House.

IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN CATTLE.

  QUESTIONS.
  MR. NORWOODsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the Commercial Treaty between Sweden and this Country contains the "most favoured nation" Clause; and, if so, whether the Government propose to extend to cattle imported from Sweden—being a country free from cattle plague—similar privileges to those which have been granted to cattle imported from Portugal, Spain, and Normandy: whether it would not be in accordance with our Treaty engagements with Prussia, which embrace the "most favoured nation" Clause, that similar privileges should also be granted to cattle imported from Schleswig Holstein, in case such province be found to be entirely free from cattle plague; and, whether any representations have been made to Her Majesty's Government in reference to the importation of cattle from Denmark, and whether the Government declines to remove the existing restrictions on the importation of cattle from Denmark, al-

  1285
  though that country is and has been entirely free from cattle plague?
  LORD STANLEYsaid, in reply, that the commercial treaty between Sweden and this country did contain the "most favoured nation" clause, but stipulations of that kind had not been held to apply, and he did not think it reasonable that they should be considered as applying to restrictions temporarily imposed for sanitary purposes only, and not imposed with a view of giving one country a commercial advantage over another. That also answered the second part of the Question of the hon. Gentleman, which related to our treaty engagements with Prussia. With regard to the third part of the Question, many representations had been addressed to Her Majesty's Government on the subject; but although these representations were addressed to the Foreign Office in the first instance, it rested, not with him, but with the Council Office to consider what restrictions should be imposed for sanitary purposes.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, if the restrictions were not necessary for sanitary purposes, he understood the noble Lord to say the "most favoured nation" clause would apply. Therefore, if there was no cattle plague in Sweden and Denmark, those countries had a right to demand that that clause should he carried into effect.
  LORD STANLEYsaid, that that was a matter for argument.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, not as argument, but as a matter of fact, he wished to ask, If it was true that if there was no cattle plague in Sweden and Denmark, the "most favoured nation" clause applied?
  LORD STANLEYsaid, the right hon. Gentleman put a question on a hypothetical case, which he could not answer on an occasion of this kind, inasmuch as he would have to enter on a longer discussion than the rules of the House would permit him. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to raise the question, he had better bring it on in a form in which it might be debated.
  MR. NORWOODsaid, he wished to ask, Whether, as Denmark was free from the cattle plague, the Government intend to withdraw the restrictions on the importation of cattle from that country?
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, the question was not as to the landing of cattle, since that was permitted, but as to what was to be done with the cattle after they
  1286
  were landed. Cattle imported from Spain were allowed to go inland; but there were reasons why the regulations passed respecting cattle from Spain, Portugal, Brittany, and Normandy should not be applied to Denmark. The ships that went to Spain were engaged in the wine trade alone, and did not go to any other country than Spain, so that there was no danger of the cattle contracting any disease on board those ships; but the ships that went to Denmark went also to Revel and the Baltic ports, and cattle might very well contract disease in them. Another reason was that Spain, Portugal, Brittany, and Normandy reared more cattle than they required for their own use, exporting only, but not importing; so that there was no danger of the cattle contracting disease before their embarkation; but in the case of other countries this did not apply. When the hon. Member spoke of cattle being imported from Denmark, he must mean that they were exported from Schleswig and Holstein because the ports were in those provinces, and cattle from Hungary, Podolia, Galicia, Styria, and other districts where the cattle plague was indigenous, were conveyed to the ports of Schleswig and Holstein, and might be brought to this country. For those reasons it would be imprudent to apply the same regulations to the northern ports, where the same security against cattle plague did not exist.
  MR. NORWOODsaid, he had confined his question to Denmark proper.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, there was no port of export from Denmark proper.

APPOINTMENTS IN THE CUSTOMS, &c.

  QUESTION.
  MR. A. RUSSELLsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, considering the recent decision of the House to confer the franchise on the officers of the Customs, Inland Revenue, and Post Office, he is not of opinion that Members of Parliament should be precluded from making application in favour of persons seeking employment in those Departments?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, there was no intention of legislating with the view of precluding Members of Parliament from making application in favour of persons seeking employment in Government Offices, because of the recent Act removing their disabilities.

IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN SHEEP.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GILPINsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the Government have any objection to continue to allow Foreign Sheep imported into London to be removed alive to populous inland towns as at present, with the sanction of the Privy Council; and, if so, whether there would be any objection to except Foreign Sheep from the operation of the Metropolitan Foreign Cattle Market Bill?
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, in reply, that there was no intention to prevent foreign sheep from going into the country, as the Order in Council showed; but the evidence adduced against the Bill by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Milner Gibson)—he referred especially to that of Mr. Rudkin, the Chairman of their Market Committee—proved incontestably that there was great danger in the free transit of foreign sheep, and induced the Committee, and the Government also, to come to the conclusion that it was necessary to prevent sheep from infected places from going into the country.

DISTRIBUTION OF TROOPS IN THE NORTH OF IRELAND—QUESTION.
SIR HERVEY BRUCEsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, What were the circumstances which induced the Government to send 50 men and 2 officers of the 28th Regiment to Coleraine on July 13th?
THE EARL OF MAYOsaid, in reply, that the removal of men to particular places could not be taken as an indication that any disturbance of the public peace was apprehended. The fact was, that they were placed only in those spots where their services, if they were required, would be most available, and the sending of those troops to Coleraine was due to this circumstance alone.

FIRES FROM RAILWAY ENGINES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. READsaid, he wished to ask the Vice President of the Board of Trade, If his attention has been called to the great and increasing destruction of growing crops and other property by fires caused by sparks from Railway Engines; and why Railway Companies should not be prohibited from
  1288
  using Coals in Locomotive Engines at least till the harvest is ended?
  MR. STEPHEN CAVE, in reply, said, the Board of Trade had received no recent communication on this subject. Fires were, no doubt, occasionally caused by sparks from locomotives, and in dry weather, such as that which now prevails, the danger was, of course, much increased. Still, if negligence could be proved against a company, it was liable for damages. It had been suggested that wire caps should be used for the funnels, such as are seen on Italian railways; but these were found materially to impede the draught, and besides had not proved effectually preventive. There was no law prohibiting the use of coals, and the Board of Trade was also powerless in the matter; the objection to the substitution of coke consisted in its much heavier cost. Sparks, like smoke, were formed of particles of imperfectly consumed fuel, and a clause in the Railway Regulation Bill of this Session, which, provided for a more perfect consumption of smoke, would, he hoped, tend to prevent the mischief of which his hon. Friend complained.

CATTLE PLAGUE COMPENSATION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. READsaid, he wished to ask the Vice President of the Privy Council, If all the Claims for Cattle Plague Compensation are settled; and when the final Report on the Cattle Plague—a great portion of which has been in type since May, 1867—will be in the hands of Members; and, whether the Veterinary Department of the Privy Council Office is likely to be permanent; and, if so, why Agricultural Statistics, which cost last year £18,000, the Corn Averages, costing annually £2,700, and other Returns connected with Agriculture, should not be collected through this Office?
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGU, in reply, said, although there were still thirty-one outstanding claims for compensation, the delay was not in the Council Office; it arose from the difficulty of getting the necessary information from the clerks of the local authorities. The final Report on the Cattle Plague was now awaiting only the completion of the medical Report and the illustrations. It was true that portions of it were in type in May, 1867, but those portions consisted only of the statistics for 1865 and 1866. The Report, when com-

  1289
  pleted, would contain a full history of the outbreak, from its commencement to its termination. It would be in the hands of Members early in the Recess. The Treasury has appointed a Commission to in quire into the desirability of making the Veterinary Department of the Privy Council permanent, and the Commission will meet in a few days. The remaining portion of the Question of the hon. Gentleman he was unable to answer.

POST OFFICE—VANCOUVER'S ISLAND.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT MILTONsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he will lay upon the Table of the House, a copy of the Despatch of Mr. Cardwell to the Governor of Vancouver's Island, dated 11th October, 1865, No. 57, transmitting Copy of Correspondence with the Treasury and the Post Office relating to the postal communication between that Colony and Great Britain?
  MR. ADDERLEYsaid, in reply, that he could not see the use of giving to the House a despatch from a late Secretary of State to a late Governor of a colony which no longer existed, respecting negotiations which had come to an end. New negotiations were now on foot, which he had recently stated to the House; but, for reasons he then gave, it would not be proper to lay any Papers on the table respecting them until they had come to a conclusion.

TURKEY—EMBASSY HOUSE AT THERAPIA.—QUESTION.
MR. MONKsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the Estimate founded upon the plan of Colonel Gordon, which was selected by Her Majesty's Government for the new Embassy House at Therapia; and whether the contract has been entered into for the erection of that house?
MR. SCLATER-BOOTH, in reply, said he was unable to lay upon the table the Estimates and plans referred to by the hon. Gentleman, because, although the Estimate would not exceed £10,000, the plan had been materially altered. Colonel Gordon had left Constantinople, and the gentleman now in charge of the building was the British Consul at Constantinople; he believed the interests of economy would he best consulted by leaving the matter in his hands. Everything had been done to
1290
insure that the work should be carried out economically.

METROPOLITAN FOREIGN CATTLE MARKET BILL.—QUESTION.
MR. J. B. SMITHsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer—it having been given in evidence before the Select Committee on the Metropolitan Foreign Cattle Market Bill that the provisions of that measure would have the effect of considerably raising the Government Contracts for the supply of cattle for the Army and Navy, and thus of increasing the Army and Navy Estimates, Whether there would be any objection to providing that foreign cattle, whether imported into London or any other port, may be forwarded alive, on the same conditions as English cattle, to Aldershot, Portsmouth, and Chatham, and other military and naval establishments, with the sanction of the Privy Council?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he thought the Question of the hon. Member rather tended to anticipate the discussion which would probably arise on the first Order of the Day. As he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) understood it, the evidence of the Government contractors was that they would be able to supply dead meat at Aldershot cheaper than live meat. He did not think this was a convenient time for discussing contradictory opinions on the point.

IRELAND—BARRACKS AT MULLINGAR.

  QUESTION.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, in the absence of his hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Greville) he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If he is aware that the large and commodious Barracks at Mullingar hare for some time been unoccupied by a Regiment of the Line, and that at the present moment there are only two Companies quartered there; and whether, considering the central situation of Mullingar Barracks, on a line of Railways which connects it with the North and South, as well as the East and West of Ireland, he does not think it desirable that as large a force should be kept there now as formerly?
  THE EARL OF MAYOsaid, in reply, that the Irish Government had nothing to do with the distribution of the troops in Ireland, except in cases of preserving the

  1291
  public peace; all ordinary movements of the Army were directed by the War Office. His own opinion, however, was that there was no necessity to station troops at Mullingar in any considerable force.

METROPOLITAN FOREIGN CATTLE MARKET (re-committed) BILL— [BILL 139.]
(Lord Robert Montagu, Mr. Hunt)
METROPOLITAN FOREIGN CATTLE MARKET (re-committed) BILL— [BILL 139.]

  COMMITTEE. ADJOURNED DEBATE.
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to Question [26th June], "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair;" and which Amendment was,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the proposal to pass a permanent law, requiring that in order to prevent the introduction of the Cattle Plague into this Country from abroad, all foreign cattle and other animals imported into the Port of London shall be landed at one prescribed spot, and shall not be removed thence alive, ought not to be considered apart from the general policy of imposing legal restrictions on the foreign cattle trade in other ports of the United Kingdom,"—(Mr. Milner Gibson.)
  —instead thereof.
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  Debate resumed.
  MR. MOFFATTsaid, that the question raised by the Bill itself was one of very great importance, being nothing less than this—whether this country should continue the policy which it had been pursuing for twenty years, or whether it should reverse that policy. Parliament had now to consider whether it would revert to Protection or persevere in the great principles of Free Trade, which had led to results so beneficial, not only to this country, but to all the world. The Government had introduced a Bill of a most protective kind—and how had it been introduced? It had been, at least, as far as regarded the principle involved in it, smuggled into the House in the first instance; but when it came before the Select Committee he and other hon. Members perceived that it was a measure of rank Protection. It would defeat one of the great objects Sir Robert Peel had in view when asking Parliament to adopt the principle of Free Trade in cattle—namely, that of securing to the people of this country meat at prices within their reach. During the investigation conducted by the Select Committee it was admitted on all hands—by the advocates as well as by the opponents of
  1292
  the Bill—that the effect of the measure would be to raise prices very much. Graziers certainly said that its effect would be to bring about Free Trade; but when asked what they meant by Free Trade they said they meant free competition. When the inquiry was carried a little further it appeared that they meant competition among themselves, but a keeping out of the foreigner. Within a few months after the passing of this Bill the importation of foreign cattle would come to an end. Indeed, he might refer to the noble Lord the Vice President of the Council in support of that proposition, for the noble Lord had frequently avowed in that House that foreign dealers would not send their cattle to this country if the animals were to be slaughtered at the port of debarkation. But the Select Committee had heard the evidence of more practical men than the noble Lord—butchers and farmers. The latter said that if this Bill passed prices would be improved; and they added that, in their opinion, prices ought to be improved. The butchers stated that the Bill would have the effect of advancing prices; but their objection to this was that, while prices would be increased the supply would be diminished. Perhaps it had been the desire of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) that some of his party should be educated in Free Trade principles by the right hon. Member for Ashton (Mr. Milner Gibson) and other Members of the Committee; but he did not think anything had been effected in that way beyond getting some of the right hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Disraeli's) supporters to admit that if you limited the supply and increased the demand you would raise prices. The pretence for the Bill was the rinderpest, which had visited this country a year or a year and a half ago; but it had not been shown that such a measure was necessary for keeping that disease out in future, or that it would effect that object. Before the Committee, M. Rouher, the chief of the Department in France which had the matter under its charge, attended for the purpose of explaining what arrangements were made for preventing the ravages of rinderpest across the Channel. The position of France was far less favourable than ours, and yet, though they had the disease there eight or ten times, they had never found any difficulty in stamping it out without in any degree giving up the full and free importation of foreign cattle. It was very instructive to see how this

  1293
  information was received by the country Gentlemen on the Committee. One would have thought they would have listened to it with the greatest interest; but it was evident that M. Rouher had had in them a comparatively unwilling audience. In France the rinderpest had been stamped out with a loss of 600 head, whereas it cost us 278,000, besides 54,000 that had been slaughtered on account of the disease. In Austria, too, which was the only country where rinderpest still existed, the plague was confined to one or two provinces, and surely the Government, before they subjected the country to a tax of £2,000,000, or £3,000,000 in the enhanced price of their food, ought to have inquired how the Germans contrived to restrict the malady within a few districts. Depend upon it, the real rinderpest which hon. Gentlemen opposite feared was foreign competition. There was a minor point on which he desired information. Did the Government intend to adhere to their resolution to admit cattle from Spain, Portugal, and Brittany? If they did, it seemed to him hardly consistent with the dignity of this country to attempt thus to evade our obligations under "the most favoured nation" clauses of our treaties. The only effect of this Bill would be to raise seriously the price of meat. This would especially be the case in London, for two reasons—because it would limit the supply, and because the expense of the construction of the foreign market would fall upon the metropolis. It had been estimated that the cost would be nearly £500,000; and it was also believed that it would be four or five years before the market could be opened; so that, during all that time, the meat market would be in a state of confusion and uncertainty. A rise of price in the article of meat touched the comfort of the people. In 1866 the number of foreign cattle in the metropolitan market was 343,000 head, and in 1867 that number was decreased by 56,000, or nearly 15 per cent. It was difficult to measure the amount of privation and suffering caused by that diminution. He trusted that the House would never consent to infringe on the great policy of Free Trade, and that the friends of that policy would by their vigilance and perseverance prevent the adoption of such a law as the one now proposed. It might appear to be harmless; but he believed that it would prove, if it was passed, a most vicious and prejudicial piece of legislation.
  SIR J. CLARKE JERVOISEsaid, that the Medical Officer's Report in 1863 stated that the diseases which figured behind the dead meat market were various. The more important were contagious fevers, parasitic diseases and typhoid; and Mr. Gamgee (who was admitted on all hands to be a great authority on such subjects) stated it to be his belief that one-fifth of the mutton, beef, veal, &c., sold in this country was considerably diseased. He also stated that the epidemic diseases were entirely owing to the importation of diseased meat, and that by the adoption of more strict precautionary measures it might be greatly reduced. It was well-known that pleuro-pneumonia was one of the most fatal kinds of cattle disease, yet up to the year 1845 it was absolutely unknown in this country. The number of cattle imported in I860 was 104,000, and three times the number imported died of disease. He had another duty to discharge in reference to this matter. In "another place," when the cattle plague was under discussion, all sorts of threats and menaces were held out against every magistrate who neglected his duty by not enforcing these Orders. Now he had often offended in this way, and as he believed that these threats were levelled at him, and as he was not allowed to say what Orders he would enforce, and what he would not, he had thought it his duty to announce at the Quarter Sessions that he had made up his mind to retire from the bench. He did not charge the Government and hon. Gentlemen opposite with having in view the reversal of Free Trade; but he must say such was their tendency. The Notice he had placed on the Paper was put there partly in irony, It was to this effect—
  "That any legal restrictions on the importation of foreign cattle are premature, until the request to the Russian Government to appoint an International Commission to consider the possibility of arresting the cattle plague in its place of origin, the Steppes of Russia, determined by the International Congress held at Zurich in September 1867, to which Professor Simonds was delegated by the President of the Privy Council, shall have received an answer."
  The whole course of the Privy Council had been full of mistakes. First of all, they had the stories about pleuro-pneumonia, with the loss of £6,000,000—an exaggerated statement. Then they sent out Mr. Simon, the Officer of Health, to the Continent to trace out the origin of the plague. He went to Holland; but it was not there.

  1295
  He went farther and farther on with like success, until at last he overtook it in Galicia, where he found four infected beasts that had just come out of the Steppes. But when Mr. Simon was asked whether he went on to the Steppes, he said "No,. for if he had he would not have been allowed to come back again." In fact, Mr. Simon made a joke of the whole matter. Then came the Report of the Commissioners, who said that the stamping-out system was only useful when there were a few cases. The right hon. Member for Calne (Mr. Lowe) said that the Commissioners derived all their information from the Report of the medical officers, which was a mistake.
  MR. BRUCEsaid, that the statement of the right hon. Gentleman was, that the Commissioners had not consulted the medical officer.
  SIR J. CLARKE JERVOISE: The Commissioners said in their Report that they depended upon the excellent judgment, information, and experience of their medical officer, Mr. Simon; but when Mr. Simon came to be examined before a Committee, and was asked what he knew about the cattle plague, he said he could only speak as one of the party, and that he knew nothing about it. In September last, Mr. Simon was again sent into Germany, and on his return home he reported that he had attended a Convention of scientific men from all parts of the world—even Russia and Turkey being included. This Convention had come to a resolution to send to the Emperor of Russia to request him to take steps for the suppression of the cattle plague at the place of its origin on the Steppes. Being curious to know the result of this deputation, he put a question on the subject to the noble Lord the Vice President of the Council (Lord Robert Montagu), but the noble Lord informed him that that subject was not in his Department, he ought to apply to the Foreign Secretary. He accordingly put the same question to the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary (Lord Stanley) and he got from him the same answer as from the noble Lord the Vice President of the Council. It was stated by the officers of the Customs that there was not a word of truth in the statement that the disease was imported from abroad. It seemed to be their opinion that it was spontaneous. It had been stated, and he believed with great truth, that it was the desire of the Government to shake off their responsibility in this
  1296
  matter upon an Act of Parliament, and to make this House responsible for the acts of the Privy Council. That Act was the Contagious Diseases Prevention Act, which was itself a mistake, because it provided that in the case of cattle slaughtered by mistake compensation should be given to the owner. That appeared to him to be a bonus on fraud and ignorance. Now, he thought if there was one thing in which there could he no mistake, it was this, that the cattle plague was capable of originating spontaneously. If it did so in one case it might do so in all, and then down went all the Resolutions of the Privy Council. It had been said that the hardships undergone by the cattle in conveying food across the Russian Steppes would be got rid of by the formation of railways now in progress, and that the diseases consequent upon their hardships would be prevented. If that were so, Russian cattle would arrive in this country in good condition. He hoped the House would hesitate before passing the present Bill.
  MR. T. T. PAGETbelieved that this question had been introduced under the shield of Protection, carried on by Protection arguments, and he feared that it would close with the cry of Protection. He was not, therefore, surprised that that cry had been so ably met by his right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton (Mr. Milner Gibson). If the arguments on the one side, however, savoured too much of Protection those on the other side savoured too much of Free Trade, and to neither side did he feel disposed to give implicit adherence. He thought, however, that it was very desirable that a market should be established where the butchers of Brighton and other towns might enter into competition with the London butchers, instead of all the foreign cattle coming into London being at once killed and consumed in the metropolis. The Bill was, in his opinion, far from faultless, but he should certainly support the going into Committee, in the belief that the principle on which it was founded would be of advantage to the country.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, the Bill was a very important one, and it was utterly impossible to give it the consideration it deserved. Where were the Cabinet Ministers? Was the noble Lord the Vice President of the Council the only Member of the Government responsible for the Bill? It was most disrespectful to the House that no Cabinet Minister was present at a dis-

  1297
  cussion of such importance. He regarded freedom of trade as an established principle of legislation, and thought it out of the question to proceed with the Bill. There was no hope or expectation in any quarter that it would pass this Session. There were twenty-one Orders on the Paper, and they had better proceed to them. He begged to move the adjournment of the debate.
  MR. GILPINseconded the Motion.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adiourned."—(Mr. Hadfield.)
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, he trusted the House would not assent to an adjournment of the debate. The hon. Member (Mr. Hadfield) had given no reason why it should be adjourned. The Bill had been introduced in December, and it was afterwards most carefully considered by a Select Committee. He had yet to learn that it is the practice of Cabinet Ministers to speak at the beginning of a debate. As regarded the absence of the Cabinet Ministers at the present moment, the hon. Member knew that this was the dinner hour. There was ample time to pass this Bill, and it was of the utmost importance that there should be a decision of the House. He had placed the question before the House on the ground of Free Trade, and not of Protection. He believed the majority of the people of this country to be in favour of the Bill. There was ample time to have passed it long ago had it not been for the factious delays that were offered. ["Oh !"] It was introduced on the 5th of December, read a second time on the 12th February, and referred to a Select Committee, where it was under consideration for more than two months. When the Bill came down again the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Milner Gibson) moved that the Report should be sent to the Examiner of Standing Orders, which had no other effect than to lose more time. The right hon. Gentleman attempted to over-ride the opinion of the House by dodges.
  MR. AYRTONrose to Order, and said that the word "dodge" ought not to be applied to any action which a Member on the Opposition side of the House might, in his duty, think proper to take.
  MR. SPEAKERthought that the noble Lord was scarcely in Order in using the word "dodge" in the remarks which he had made. He had better confine himself
  1298
  to the reasons against the Motion for Adjournment.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, he did not mean anything offensive to the right hon. Gentleman, but the contrary. What he meant to convey was that the forms of the House had been somewhat ingeniously strained to prevent the progress of the Bill. He hoped the debate would not be adjourned until they had had the opportunity of hearing the opinions of the Cabinet, and perhaps of the Prime Minister himself, on the subject.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that when this Bill was under discussion on another occasion, he took the liberty of pointing out the position in which they were placed, and there might be some misapprehension as to his views. ["Divide !"] We have not yet heard the opinion of one Minister of the Crown, and the Treasury Bench has not now a single occupant. Possibly that may be taken as a type of the mental state of the Government on the subject of this Bill. We have not heard one Minister of the Crown. The only Minister who was brought before the Committee was the President of the Board of Trade, and he distinctly stated that he was not cognizant of the nature of the Bill. ["Divide !"]
  MR. FRESHFIELD, as a Member of the Select Committee, wished to say a few words on the subject, although, not being a Minister of the Crown, he did not fulfil the condition laid down by the hon. and learned Gentleman who last addressed the House (Mr. Ayrton). At this time of the evening, however, it was somewhat unreasonable to expect the Members of the Government to be seated on the Treasury Bench. The question placed before the Select Committee was, whether this Bill was a proper one, and one which should become the law of the country. He confessed that he had had great difficulty in sitting on the same Committee with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ashton (Mr. Milner Gibson), for that right hon. Gentleman seemed to have been animated by two feelings—the one an insuperable hatred to Protection, and the other an almost idolatrous love of Free Trade. His love, however, began abroad and ended abroad. His love for a foreign ox was something touching; his love for a foreign sheep was something beatific; but the centre of his affection seemed to be in a foreign goat; whether the attraction was in its horns, in its aroma, or in its milk, in association with the right hon. Gentle-

  1299
  man's infantine days, did not appear. But of this he (Mr. Freshfield) was quite sure, that the right hon. Gentleman had neither sympathy, affection, nor allegiance with the typical John Bull of our own native land. The object of the Committee had been to determine whether the Bill was calculated to meet the purpose of its framcrs—namely, to make provision for the streams of cattle which converged into the metropolis. It was found that the restrictions with regard to London amounted to a cattle plague in themselves, by the cordon which was drawn around the metropolis, and by the edict that all the cattle within that area must not leave it alive, the result being scarcity of supply and enhanced cost to the consumer. It was most remarkable that a witness summoned to give evidence against the Bill, and who Stated that he landed more than half the foreign cattle which came to England, admitted that in the interest of the public the measure was a wise one.
  MR. MILNER GIBSON: The witness had petitioned against the Bill, and he was promised compensation.
  MR. FRESHFIELD: The agent had prepared a very general petition; but the witness declared on his oath that the form of his petition was a mistake, and that he had never any other feeling than that the measure was a right and proper one. Could the right hon. Gentleman deny that? This evidence, although amusing, was at the same time instructive. As to the Members of the Select Committee voting in small majorities, all he (Mr. Freshfield) could say was, that the right hon. Gentleman was a man of such astute mind, that it was exceedingly difficult for persons less sophisticated than himself to understand the mode in which he conducted the case; and he dressed up his objections in so many forms that it was difficult to recognize the ! staple of them; and no kaleidoscope could give them more varied shape. As far, however, as one could collect them, the right hon. Gentleman's main objections to the Bill were these—First, he complained that they were legislating for contingencies; that the cattle plague might have existed, but that it existed no longer; and that they were imposing a heavy permanent burden on the country. That certainly was rather an extraordinary argument to emanate from the front Opposition Bench, considering that the occupants of that Bench had been endeavouring to pass a Suspensory Bill which should have
  1300
  operation only in the contingency of the passing of another Bill which had not been, and he trusted never would be, passed, for the disestablishment and disendowment of the Irish Church. The cattle plague was a patent and disastrous fact in our annals; and it was as certain that it would return as that the extent of the evil, when it came, would depend on the legislation of Parliament. Next, the right hon. Gentleman told them that the market would cost £500,000. But let them look at the other side of the account. What was the cost of the cattle plague? Since the ports were opened 2,000,000 head of cattle had died, at a loss of not less than £60,000,000. Since the last outbreak of that plague it was computed that some 300,000 cattle had died, causing a loss of not less than £9,000,000 sterling. What then was £500,000? Barely a year's interest at 5 per cent on the loss they had sustained. Then it was said that the measure was an imperfect one, and that they were legislating for the port of London only. But the case of London was exceptional; the mass of foreign cattle came there; and if foreign cattle were admitted into London it was impossible but that the cattle plague must be bred there, and thence disseminated over the country. The right hon. Gentleman said the way to stop the cattle plague was to close the ports. Admitting that, still there was nothing in the Bill to prevent that course being taken when necessary. The Bill was an additional measure of precaution. It was found that the existing restrictions at the other ports were not sufficient for the metropolis, and also that those restrictions, as regarded the metropolis, became an evil there and involved a loss second only to that caused by the cattle plague itself. Furthermore, the right hon. Gentleman said that this Bill would introduce infected cattle—[Mr. MILNER GIBSON: Hear, hear !]—whereas it was not intended to make the foreign cattle market a whit less impure than the Copenhagen Fields market. Our duty was to enforce all the existing restrictions, and more; and even to have English Consuls at the foreign ports to see that no infected cattle were exported. Then the right hon. Gentleman said that the butchers would carry the cattle plague in their boots. It was true that it had been proved that the disease was most subtle; but was not the risk of the cattle plague being carried in butchers' boots altogether insignificant in comparison with the danger of cattle being

  1301
  altogether intermixed? He (Mr. Freshfield) would earnestly recommend the House to proceed to pass the Bill this Session. It would be bad enough to commit it to Gentlemen opposite to carry out, and worse for the interests of the country, if it was left to three right hon. Gentlemen opposite, who entertained such peculiar opinions upon the subject.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he was sorry his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Freshfield) had compelled him, contrary to his intention, to take part in the debate and to make a protest on his own behalf. The hon. and learned Gentleman said he saw with great concern the unanimity of counsel that prevailed between himself (Mr. Gladstone) and two Gentlemen sitting on the same Bench with him; and from what he had said he was not in the House when he (Mr. Gladstone) addressed the House on a former debate upon this Bill; and his silence almost amounted to an admission of the fact.
  MR. FRESH FIELDsaid, he was in the House, and heard the whole of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, and if time bad permitted he should have replied to it.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, the hon. and learned Gentleman's discretion was greater than if he had not heard it. On a previous occasion he avoided giving a positive or dogmatic judgment upon the great question of Protection involved in this Bill—the free or restricted supply of food—not because he might not have his own prepossessions with regard to it; but because he knew a number of Gentlemen on the Committee, and others, who were able to give to that evidence a degree of detailed attention he had been unable to give it, that he thought it but fair towards them and respectful to the House to leave the operation of the Bill to be discussed by them. He, however, dwelt on matter entirely distinct from that conveyed by his right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton (Mr. Milner Gibson). Not that he was ashamed of being associated with him on any question, and more particularly that of Free Trade, in which, for the last twenty-five years, his right hon. Friend had been the standard-bearer in what was now admitted to be the cause of the nation against not the real but the supposed and imaginary cause of the particular interest of a particular class. Therefore, if he divided himself on that occasion from his right hon. Friend it was from no reluctance to stand in the same rank with him. On a former occasion be dwelt on two points,
  1302
  and he referred to them now because the Government had not yet said one word upon a vital point that must first be disposed of, namely—why they thought the powers already vested in the hands of the Privy Council were insufficient for the whole demands and exigencies that might arise in connection with the importation of foreign cattle? He should have been glad to have heard the hon. and learned Member for Dover's remarks upon that point. They had had retrospective complaints of the conduct of the Privy Council in former times; but it was not a question of what the Privy Council, under other auspices, might have done in former times. They had now a Privy Council in which they reposed confidence, and it became them to show cause for departing from that system which Parliament had deliberately adopted—the system of trusting to that elastic power which was lodged in the hands of the Executive Government, and of persons capable, if they went astray, of being immediately called to account, and set right by Parliament. There had been no attempt to show any cause for the departure from that elastic system, and for the attempt to substitute at the point, where it should best be substituted, a rigid system of law, which it would be difficult to revoke when once adopted, and involving at the outset great pecuniary liability. That subject had received no consideration whatever in any of the speeches of the promoters of the Bill, and certainly it had not received consideration in the detailed address of the noble Lord the Vice President of the Committee of Privy Council (Lord Robert Montagu), and therefore he (Mr. Gladstone) commended it to the consideration of the hon. and learned Member for Dover. Another point which he considered more vital, and which must be explained by the Government before the Speaker left the Chair, was the finance of the market. Not a word had as yet been said about it. He had never known, in the course of a long experience and close observation, when the Government of the day had brought forward a plan involving a large financial liability, when it was not made a capital and primary point—
  LORD JOHN MANNERSrose to Order. He understood that when his noble Friend the Vice President of the Council was making objections he was stopped by the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair on the ground that he had already spoken on the merits of the Bill, and that it was not com-

  1303
  petent to him, on the Motion for Adjournment, to re-open the main question and principles of the Bill, and he wished now to know whether the right hon. Gentleman was in Order in repeating on the same Motion the observations made by him on a former occasion respecting the Bill?
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, what he wished to point out was that his observations were simply a direct, unequivocal, and necessary reply to the hon. and learned Member for Dover (Mr. Freshfield); and why, he asked, did not his noble Friend [Lord John Manners] rise during the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Dover when he was pointing out what a subtle disease the cattle plague was, and call him to Order? That had no immediate connection with the question of the adjournment of the debate, but the merits of the Bill. He had no wish to stand in the way and, as it was certain that this was a subject that must be fully discussed before going into Committee, he withdrew from making any further comment on his hon. and learned Friend's speech.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, that this was unquestionably a Protection Bill. It was a Bill for protecting the public against eating diseased meat, and therefore, in the interests of the community, he should support it.
  MR. FORDYCEsaid, that the farmers of Aberdeenshire had a great interest in preventing the introduction of the disease in cattle. Aberdeenshire was the largest cattle breeding county in Scotland, sending to London about 90,000 head of cattle, alive or dead, per annum. His constituents took a very simple view of this Bill. They said they were entitled, as a matter of police regulation, to precautions being adopted for keeping diseased cattle out of the country. Under a system of free and unrestricted importation one disease after another had been imported into this country. The cattle plague prevailed in Aberdeenshire, and the only successful measure was to isolate the county. What his constituents asked was, that the same plan should be applied to the whole country as far as practicable, and this object, so qualified, was carried out by the Bill. If the system foreshadowed in the Bill were carried out the result would be the establishment of dead meat markets in the neighbourhood of all large towns. It was not protection against foreign meat that his constituents wanted, but protection against disease. Hon. Gentlemen said, "Where is the ne-
  1304
  cessity for such a Bill? There is no cattle plague at present." But if they had, like some of the farmers of Aberdeenshire, lost nine-tenths of their cattle by the rinderpest, and had found their present stock depreciated in value by £2 per head, they would hold very different language. Something must be done to establish dead meat markets in all large towns, and he regretted the Select Committee did not examine the gentlemen who came from Aberdeenshire to represent the views of the farmers of that locality, who would have shown that it was possible to supply London with dead meat from Aberdeenshire. There was a strong feeling among the agriculturists of Scotland in favour of the Bill.
  MR. GILPINsaid, he was in favour of the adjournment, thinking that the House was not at present in a position to come to a conclusion on this important subject, and he doubted whether it would be so during the present Session. It was no doubt the interest of the farmers of Aberdeenshire to obtain the highest price for their beasts, and it was equally the interest of the shoemakers of Northampton and others to get meat as cheap as possible. The Privy Council possessed sufficient powers for preventing the transfer of cattle throughout the country. He objected to the Bill as a return to Protection, and the arguments employed to show that the agriculturists needed protection from foreign cattle reminded him of those formerly used in support of protection from foreign corn.
  MR. NEWDEGATE, as an unrepentant Protectionist, thought the proceedings of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite were calculated to further what he desired—namely, the modification of the present system of Free Trade in corn. They claimed a right to import disease ["No !"] unrestricted, except by Orders in Council. They might cry "No !" but that was really the meaning of the Opposition. Now, he had the same objection to that elastic system, so much admired by the right hon. Member for South Lancashire, that his forefathers had to ship-money.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, it did not seem a very satisfactory course to adopt to move the adjournment at that hour; but there were circumstances which sometimes rendered it necessary to take an exceptional course. The subject now under debate had been before the House for three nights; it was a measure of great importance, inasmuch as it affected the food

  1305
  supply of the metropolis; and yet the Ministers of the Crown had not seen fit to express their own opinion upon it. It was proposed by this Bill to exclude all foreign living cattle from this country, and to enact that all such upon their arrival should be slaughtered, whether they were healthy or unhealthy. He himself was an advocate for prohibiting the importation of cattle from unhealthy and affected countries; but he was in favour of admitting healthy cattle which could be brought into this country without danger. He supported the Motion for the Adjournment upon this ground, that no Cabinet Minister had thought it worth his while to condescend even to listen to the debate—much less to speak—in it. Upon one occasion the Government, through their organ in that House, represented this measure as a gigantic scheme of Protection. He (Mr. Milner Gibson) had been charged with faction, and with using dodges; but he denied both. The noble Lord the Vice President of the Privy Council made a speech recently, in which he said—
  "How are we to feed the poor? There are some difficulties in dealing with the subject, but the greatest of all is the feeding of the poor. If the beasts are killed at Harwich only the best joints would be sent up to London, for it would not pay to send up the others. But the working classes do not live upon the best joints, but upon shins of beef; not upon Southdowns, but upon Merino sheep; not upon joints, but upon offal; and that offal will never be brought to London if the animals are slaughtered at their places of landing."
  Those were the words of the Government. When, therefore, they had such a remarkable change of opinion—when they found Ministers violating their own opinions so recently expressed, they were entitled to learn from those Cabinet Ministers what was the fresh evidence which had induced that change of sentiment, and what were the excuses for thus placing restrictions upon the food of the people. He was told that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) had excited the suspicions of a certain number of the country Gentlemen below the Gangway on account of his insincerity. Amongst these a round robin had been got up—a threatening communication—and presented to the Premier, striving to coerce him into carrying this Bill. The Prime Minister had evidently departed from all his arrangements with regard to the Public Business. He said some time ago that the Bribery and the Supplementary Reform Bills were to take the precedence; but in came
  1306
  this threatening letter from the country Gentlemen, and this Cattle Market Bill was thrust in between. They were surely entitled to hear the opinion of Ministers themselves on the subject. He should vote for the adjournment of the debate, because he had heard no explanation from any Member of the Cabinet, and because he believed the House was being treated with disrespect. They had been called down at great inconvenience to two Forenoon Sittings in order to debate the Bill, and not a single Member of the Government had deemed it worth while even to peep in and see what they were doing. He should like to know what were the public objects which the Government wished to accomplish. If he received no clear and satisfactory information with respect to the Ministerial policy he should support the Motion for adjournment.
  COLONEL JERVISsaid, he thought the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. Milner Gibson) would have taken a wider and a broader view of this matter than he had done. No Member of the House knew better than the right hon. Gentleman that the large slaughter in Holland of cattle which took place during the cattle plague had had the effect of greatly reducing the price of meat. Dutch beef was sold in the London market at 6½d. per pound, whilst English beef sold at 10 d. and 11 d. Quantities of dead meat, amounting to as much as 18,000 tons, during the half year, had been shipped to the metropolis by the Great Eastern Railway. If that could be done in Holland they might expect still more favourable results if the cattle coming from all countries were compelled to be slaughtered at the port of debarkation. The Bill now under discussion was loudly and urgently demanded. The importation of cattle into London from other parts of England had almost been stopped by the cattle plague, and some such measure as the one before the House was required to revive the home trade. He had no hesitation in saying that the sole opposition to this Bill was simply to defend the interests of some twenty cattle salesmen in London. No man knew that better than the right hon. Gentlemen the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne. The first opposition to the Bill rose from the Thames Haven Company. Three cattle salesman, one dead meat salesman, and the Tilbury line were at the bottom of the whole of it. The twenty people to whom he had referred had set the whole of the Opposition going for the last eighteen months. The Veterinary

  1307
  Department of the Board of Trade had been undoubtedly also opposed to the Bill; but that was because they were afraid of being abolished should the new law come into operation. He was not surprised, therefore, that that Department should receive the support of the right hon. Member for Ashton, who was formerly connected with that Department. The real question to be decided, however, was whether they were or were not to pass the Bill. His own opinion was that no Government in the position of the present could possibly prorogue Parliament without passing the measure, more especially as not a single argument had really been advanced against it. He maintained that no class interest whatever would be injured by it; on the contrary, they would all be benefited, and moreover the whole country was in favour of the Bill. The slaughtering of the cattle at the landing place would have the ultimate effect of relieving Newgate Market of the great pressure and inconvenience which at present prevailed there. District butchers who sent their carts there as early as three or four o'clock in the morning, had often to keep them waiting till nine o'clock under a broiling sun before they could get their meat conveyed away. That, of course, tended very considerably to deteriorate the quality of the beef. He wanted to know why that which had been done by Governments who were most careful not to allow their people to be in want of food should not be done by us? The French Government could not allow their people to grumble for want of food, and they had established this system. He hoped that the next time the right hon. Gentleman opposed the Bill he would do so, not for the mere fun of putting a stop to it, but would make use of sound arguments which might go forth to the country.
  MR. J. B. SMITHsupported the Motion of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Hadfield) for the adjournment of the debate. He wanted to know what they were to think of the huge trades union formed in that House for the purpose of raising the price of the food of the people. ["Oh, oh !"] What had they seen in the House this evening but a trades union, pursuing the same course as the trades unions they had all heard so much of. ["Oh !"] They had heard that hon. Members were engaged in preparing a missive to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli); in fact, that they were preparing to "ratten" him unless he conformed to their wishes. Under
  1308
  such circumstances he appealed to the House whether the noble Lord opposite (Lord Robert Montagu)—and, by-the-by, the Treasury Bench was entirely empty at the time—was justified with charging Members on that (the Opposition) side with faction? He maintained that they were perfectly justified in the course they had taken.
  MR. DISRAELI: I rise, Sir, to speak on the question of adjournment, and I must say I very much regret to have heard that such a Motion was made. It seems to me to be a most unusual course to adopt on such an occasion. The observations that no Ministers were present on this Bench at eight o'clock, if accurate, have not been made in that spirit of courtesy which generally pervades our debates. Nor is it true, I think, that there has been an absence of Ministers of the Crown generally during this debate. There have been two long Morning Sittings. I have been present at them, and I have been in my place the whole of this day. It is not customary to make such remarks; it would be inconvenient for both sides, and I think it is scarcely justified. It appears to me that it is desirable that the House should come to a division; not, however, upon the question of adjournment, but on the merits of the case. If the House wishes that the debate should be prolonged, I am perfectly ready to take part in it, and there are others of my Colleagues who are prepared to do the same. I think that, under these circumstances, if the House comes to a division upon the question of the adjournment we shall be liable to great misrepresentation, and there will be some ground for the insinuations which have been thrown out that there is a desire on the part of a portion of the Members of this House not to meet the question with that fairness which is desirable. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire has made an inquiry which, though I am speaking on the question of adjournment, I would wish to answer. The right hon. Gentleman says he is anxious to know why we did not meet the necessities of the case by Orders in Council instead of this Bill. I quite admit that that is a very fair inquiry, and one which I think would occur to any one who gives a candid consideration to this question. But the real cause for the introduction of this measure was that Orders in Council did not meet the necessities of the case. We are obliged to hare recourse to statutory

  1309
  regulations, because we cannot by Orders in Council meet the necessities of the case. There is a clause in the Bill of last year which provides that the Council shall have powers to establish a special market for foreign cattle. At the time the Bill was under discussion I remember that the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) proposed that this provision should be compulsory, not only on the local authorities, but on the Privy Council. That was opposed, because it is not expedient; that compulsory powers should be given unless they are absolutely necessary, and under the Bill we had the power of establishing a market for foreign meat in every town, and also of purchasing land for that purpose. Well, we have succeeded with these powers in every town except London; but when we attempted to carry that legislation into effect in London we utterly failed. We found that we could not deal with the local authorities and with those whose concurrence was necessary in order to effect what we desired. There was no redress for us, therefore, and no means by which to overcome the difficulty unless by coming to this House and asking for legislation. That is my answer to the inquiry of the right hon. Gentleman. I do not want, though I am prepared on a fitting occasion, to go into a discussion on the general policy involved in the Bill. All I wish now is to impress on the House the extreme inexpediency of our going to a division on a question which does not involve any expression of opinion as to the policy of the Bill. That appears to me highly undesirable, and I trust, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman, on reflection, will feel that the best course is to withdraw the Motion for adjournment, and let us proceed with the discussion.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, he should be sorry to interrupt in any way the course of Business, and would therefore withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. JACOB BRIGHTsaid, he considered the House had a very important duty to discharge in deciding upon the present question, affecting as it did the supply of food to the people. The question assumed increased importance when they considered the character of the country, which, with perhaps one exception, was
  1310
  more thickly peopled than any other in Europe, and which, without any exception, was the country in all the world which was most dependent upon the importation of food. He was not, as was well known, a metropolitan Member; but the constituency he represented was as much interested in the Bill as the metropolis itself. If, as was generally supposed, the restrictions which this Bill would impose would limit the importation of cattle into the metropolis, the metropolis must necessarily make up its supplies of food by competing with the rest of the country, and therefore the price of meat to the rest of the country would be enhanced. But if there was any necessity to pass this Bill for the metropolis, there was undoubtedly a necessity to pass it for the whole country. And if the argument was not strong enough to extend the Bill to the whole country, then undoubtedly the Bill itself had no legs to stand upon. This was, of course, the thin end of the wedge, and the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire (Mr. Fordyce) had very candidly told them it was a foreshadowing of what would come upon the country. Many things had been said in the course of that debate; and, generally, what one side of the House had asserted the other side had contradicted; but there was one point on which all were agreed. It was admitted that, for a temporary evil, they were about to impose permanent restrictions, and it was admitted and understood that those permanent restrictions would limit the importation of cattle. ["No !"] Well, then, there were some exceptions, and they were not universally agreed upon that point; but it was enough for him that the Government admitted it, and that it was believed to a very great extent on that side of the House. The Government admitted it; for the noble Lord the Vice President of the Council, in the very long speech he delivered in introducing the Bill, began, by telling them that they had a choice of evils. If so, then undoubtedly there must be some evil in the restrictions proposed. If it were the fact that they were going to limit the importation of food, and therefore that they were about to increase permanently the price of meat throughout the country, he called that a most startling proposition. Hardly more than a week ago many Members of that House met together, in a place not far from that spot, to keep alive the memory of a great statesman (Mr. Cobden) and to advocate his opinions. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton

  1311
  (Mr. Villiers) presided on that occasion, and his name was as much associated with Free Trade as that of any man in the country. In the face of associations like these, there appeared to him to be something unreal in the business they were now upon, and he could not wonder at the suspicion expressed by many Members, especially by the right hon. Member for Ashton (Mr. Milner Gibson). He doubted whether the Government was serious in the matter; certainly the Bill had not been introduced by the most serious Member of the Government. It had been supposed by high authorities that this measure was really introduced for electioneering purposes. It was believed that the Government had treated very badly the great party behind it, and that they had no real desire to pass the Bill; that the party behind them were pressing the Government, and that the Government was not free to act as it desired in this matter. Undoubtedly there was great mystery and perplexity about this question, and the measure was not supported as one of that great importance ought to be. The noble Lord the Vice President of the Council said they had to consider whether they would put up with this evil of restriction in order to avoid a possible recurrence of the cattle plague in this country, and that upon the answer to that question depended the fate of the Bill. Although the noble Lord had discussed every mortal thing in connection with it for upwards of two hours, he did not discuss the question he had himself put. Was it remembered that it was 100 years since this country had been afflicted with the cattle plague? For a quarter of a century at least the importation of cattle had been unrestricted, yet we had been free until recently from the cattle plague. According to the evidence given before the Committee, it was fifty years since France had been afflicted with the cattle plague. He did not mean to say that a period equally long must elapse before this country was again visited by it, but we could only judge of the future by our knowledge of the past. If the question were put to the French whether they would submit to such restrictions in order to ensure themselves against the recurrence of the plague, he was confident their answer would be that the proposal was a monstrous one. For £200 or £300 the French Government had stamped out the cattle plague, and at the present moment they imported from every country,
  1312
  taking no precautions beyond inspecting the cattle at the frontier and at the port of Marseilles. He would say, if the Privy Council had not the authority which the French Government had in the matter, let it be armed with that authority; but he was told that they had power absolutely to prohibit the importation of cattle, if they could make out a case justifying such a measure. Let the House consider that the evils of restriction already experienced at the outports would be visited upon the metropolis. How great the evil was might appear from the experience of Hull, where the importation of foreign cattle had dwindled down from 35,000, at which it stood three years back, to something like 1,300. That was the evil they had to anticipate in order to avoid a possible cattle plague. The hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Horsfall), whose absence from the House on that occasion he regretted, had successfully warded off the attempt made to impose those restrictions upon the great port he represented, but what that port, through its Conservative Member, had repudiated, the Government were now about to saddle on the much larger area of the port of London. The noble Lord the Vice-President of the Council enlarged on the great difficulty of guarding this area, from its irregularity and extent; but in the face of that difficulty, and in the face of the fact of the introduction of foreign sheep, the cattle plague had disappeared from the country. The barrier had been thrown down in the case of France, and he could not conceive why it should be allowed to exist here. If that House had been assembled to discuss the question how more meat could be supplied to this country, it might have been a futile discussion, but it would not have been a dangerous one, and would not have raised unpleasant suspicions. There were millions of people in this country who knew nothing of animal food except what they saw of it in passing through their towns. It rarely touched their Tips. If every man and woman were to have one meal of animal food per day, this country would be revolutionized. According to Mr. Caird, who was a high authority upon the subject, if all the meat, home and foreign, consumed in this country were divided among the population, it would only amount to two ounces per head per day; and when they considered the abundance, or rather the superabundance, enjoyed by the rich, it was manifest that

  1313
  a large portion of the people must be wholly deprived of that luxury. Again: Mr. Caird told us that one-eighth part of all the meat consumed in the country came from abroad. One-eighth of the population of this country was 4,000,000 of people, and therefore they were dealing with the meat supply of 4,000,000 of people. Hon. Members who had been severe sufferers by the cattle plague could not be the most dispassionate judges of a question like this. Men who were suffering from great loss or pain no matter of what kind, were not always the best judges of the reinedy. If they were to ask men who had been garotted to legislate in respect to garotting, they would probably wish to have one-half of us put in strait-jackets. The noble Lord the Vice President had spoken, in the days of his innocence, before he was corrupted or coerced—he (Mr. Jacob Bright) did not know exactly by what means hon. Gentlemen who sat on the Treasury Bench were violently driven from one extreme of opinion to another—the noble Lord had spoken of the difficulty of feeding the poor, and had characterized the policy of this measure as a scheme of gigantic Protection. If there was any intention of restoring Protection this was a very inopportune time to do it. Bread had been dear, and there had been a yearly increase of taxation, and fears were expressed that we were likely to have a much harder race with the foreigner in regard to our industry. But if this restriction were imposed it would raise the price of food—["No, no !"]—the cattle which would otherwise have come to this country would be kept away—["No, no !"]—and the tendency would be to bring about this unfortunate state of things, that the food of our competitors would be lowered while our own food would be increased in cost. This Parliament began its career of legislation by passing what was called the Cattle Plague Bill—a Bill which gave compensation to men engaged in agriculture at the cost of the rest of the country. Now, he did not deny that legislation was necessary at that time, and on that question; but, in common with the great majority of the non-agricultural population of the country, he believed that the legislation that did take place was of a most unjust character. He had not then the honour of a seat in that House. He was simply a spectator. But it appeared to him that at that time there was a great
  1314
  agricultural insurrection in that House, led on by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Government, for the time, he believed, was not able to legislate in the sense in which it desired to legislate. The name of the right hon. Gentleman was at the back of this Bill, which, however, he did not believe would pass. If it did, it would be a fit legislative close of a Parliament which so unjustly began. They had heard a good deal said about the moral competence of the House. Well, seeing that the cattle plague had disappeared from the country under present regulations, and almost entirely from Europe—seeing that neighbouring countries admitted foreign cattle—seeing that those who would be injured by an enhanced price had no voice in that House—he asked whether, under these circumstances, they had the moral competence to deal with this question, which should be remitted to another Parliament? The House had been condemned by the country and by itself, and the Government had over and over again been condemned by the House, and it had been understood that only such questions should come before that House as were necessary for the winding up of Business. He was not credulous with respect to the character of the next Parliament. He had never believed that the mere giving of votes could create a miracle, nor did he believe that a really national assembly would ever sit in that House until the people of this country were protected in giving their votes—["Question !"]—and until the balance of power as between the large and small constituencies were redressed. But a new Parliament would never sanction such a measure as this. And he believed, if they succeeded in passing this Bill, long before they had wrung the £500,000 from the taxpayers, the next House of Commons would have repudiated the measure and given them no thanks for their pains. Whatever came of this Bill, it could not fail to discredit the Government. He had never had much respect for the Government. Its conduct in the year 1866; its peculiar origin, and its still more peculiar history, had made it difficult for him to be one of its admirers. But there were elements in it which had led him to believe that it was impossible it could ever lend itself to a folly like that. He had been compelled to acknowledge with the rest of the world, that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Go-

  1315
  vernment was a man of commanding intellect. He had believed, and he would not yet abandon the belief, that the great intelligence of the Prime Minister was a guarantee that his Government would not be allowed to commit the extraordinary blunder of once again placing the great Conservative party between the people and their supply of food.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, if his name had not been at the back of the Bill he would have spoken, as the subject of the Bill was one in which he took great interest. He deeply regretted the tone of the debate, which was calculated to create the false impression that this was a question between urban and rural interests. He wholly denied that there was any such conflict. The hobgoblin of Protection had been raised in order to defeat the Bill. Now, since he had had the honour of a seat in that House the question of Free Trade and Protection had been entirely settled, and he had never heard any Member attempt to revive the old Protectionist doctrine. If he thought the present proposal would revive that doctrine in any shape be would never have allowed his name, as it did, to appear on the back of the Bill. The simple question they had then to consider was, what was the best way of keeping our flocks and herds, on which we mainly depended for the food supply of the people, free from the contagion of disease imported from abroad? It must be admitted that town and country were interested in keeping our herds free from contagion. The question was, could that be better done by a system of exceedingly complicated and vexatious regulations than by fixing upon a place where foreign cattle should be landed and slaughtered? That was the only question to be considered; and all that had been said about the towns Buffering from the measure was beside the mark. He admitted that the matter was not wholly free from difficulty, that there was much to be said on both sides, and that, if the Bill had come before the House two years ago he should not have supported it. He had sat upon the Committee presided over' by the right hon. Member for Ashton (Mr. Milner Gibson) on the subject of Trade in Animals; and when the labours of that Committee were concluded they sent in a Report which abstained from recommending the adoption of a measure like the present. But the experience they had since acquired convinced him—as it con-
  1316
  vinced, he believed, many others who had then shared his opinion—that such a proposal as the present one might be prudently and beneficially adopted. Previous to the cattle plague breaking out the metropolitan market was the great market for the whole of the country as well as for the metropolis and its neighbourhood. But the regulations which had been acquiesced in by the country—and against which, as far as he was aware, no protest had been raised in the House—were so strict as regards the metropolitan market that they prevented an immense number being sent up to London. The supply was consequently very much limited. Previous to the outbreak of the cattle plague the supplies were annually on the increase; but there had been a positive decrease since the new regulations came into force. It was clear, then, that the present system tended to limit the supply of home-bred animals to the metropolitan limits; and it could hardly be denied that the removal of the existing restrictions and the consequent admission of a large number of beasts to the market would be a benefit to the consumer. Every hon. Member, he thought, must wish to see a very large supply sent to the metropolis, so that the price of meat might be reduced. Such a supply was prevented by the rule that when once an animal had come into the metropolitan market it could not be allowed to leave the metropolis. It was formerly the practice that persons in distant towns should come up to London, or should employ agents to purchase cattle in the metropolitan market; but that practice was put a stop to by the regulations now in force. This fact was, in his opinion, an answer to the remarks of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Jacob Bright). He would pass by the argument, in which there was a certain amount of force, that the insecurity which prevailed in consequence of the apprehension of danger from foreign infection tended to prevent people from investing their money in the breeding of cattle. But, on the other hand, it must be remembered that, under the present arrangement, a large number of young animals born within the metropolitan area had either to be destroyed or furtively, and in evasion of the law, to be sent to he reared in the country. When he reflected upon the number of milch cows kept in London for the supply of milk, it was evident that the number of calves destroyed must be considerable; or, if they were

  1317
  sent into the country it was because people felt that the present regulations were contrary to common sense, and they were therefore disregarded with an easy conscience. The question, therefore, for consideration was whether it would not be advisable to free the metropolitan area from restrictions which tended to limit the supply of food in the metropolis, and to appropriate a market at the waterside for the slaughter and sale of foreign animals. He did not deny that the course the Government recommended was open to some objection; he offered it to the House as the lesser evil of the two; and, in reality, all they had before them was a choice of evils. The hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. J. B. Smith) had said that it would tend to raise the price of the Government contracts for meat; but he believed there was no evidence to support that objection. On the contrary, the evidence went to show that if the contractors were obliged to slaughter the cattle in London they could supply the troops with dead meat at a cheaper rate; because, having a ready market for what was technically called the offal, they would be enabled to sell the prime parts at a lower rate than if they had to convey the whole of the animal to the place where those prime parts were required for consumption.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONwas under stood to say that the contractors were not permitted to slaughter the beasts in London.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he had no doubt that an enlightened Government like the present would find means to make an alteration in that respect. Then it had been objected that it would ha exceedingly inconvenient to persons in the trade to have to go to two markets; and he did not deny that the change, like all other changes, might be productive of a certain amount of inconvenience; but that inconvenience would soon cease to be felt, as persons in the trade would in a very short time conduct their business according to the altered state of affairs. It had Also been urged that under the system now proposed there would he no real security against infection, because persons after handling the beasts in one market could go and handle the beasts in the other. No doubt contagion might arise in that way; but he was of opinion: that the danger of it was very much lessened by the scheme proposed by the Bill; for in 1865 and 1866, when the cattle
  1318
  plague was so rife, it was demonstrated that the chief, though not the sole cause of contagion, was the conveyance of animals along the railways; and during these years the metropolitan market was the chief focus of infection. That was shown by one single fact—that two or three days after the clauses of the Cattle Plague Act became law, which prohibited the carriage of any animal along a line of railway, the disease began sensibly to diminish. He would not further detain the House; but he hoped it would assent to the second reading of the Bill.
  MR. CLAYsaid, the hon. and gallant Member for Harwich (Colonel Jervis) had told them that the opposition to this Bill proceeded from some twenty great cattle salesmen. He should have thought that the length and course of this debate might have assured the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the opposition sprung from much wider and more powerful sources. If he (Mr. Clay) were convinced that the Bill was to be confined to the metropolis alone he would have left the metropolis to the care of her natural guardians; but proxirmis ardet Ucalegon. It was to that source that they must trace the long and determined opposition which the Bill had met. Speaking on behalf of the port which he represented, he did not recollect any legislation which had caused in Hull so much dismay as had this proposal of the Government. The cattle trade of Hull had grown rapidly for some years, and reached its greatest extent in 1865. In that year the importation of cattle to Hull was 41,157 head; but in 1867 that number dwindled down to 16,000 odd; the sheep and lambs imported in 1865 numbered 69,160 head, and only 9,266 in 1867; and the pigs imported into Hull dwindled from 15,000 odd, in 1865, to 3,000 odd in 1867. Those figures showed not a great loss, but the annihilation of the trade. Still it was borne with a most undisturbed patience, because it was felt that the restrictions which caused so much loss were justified by the dire necessity of the care, and because no reasonable man would object to any reasonable means of getting rid of the horrid plague which was inflicted upon us. But it was now proposed that those measures of extreme rigour, which were justified by the temporary cause, should be made permanent, while no one pretended to say that the evil which they were intended to correct was permanent. He believed this Bill was an exceedingly ill-advised one, and much as

  1319
  his constituents had suffered from the restrictions of the Privy Council, he was content that the matter should be left in their hands, feeling confident that they would relax the restrictions whenever it was feasible to do so with perfect safety. He had been asked what reason there could be for the unnatural legislation which was proposed. There had been considerable delicacy shown in this debate as to calling things by their right names, and very great sensitiveness in making any allusion to the old differences of Free Trade and Protection. But he confessed that in his inability to find any other conceivable cause for this legislation he was driven to believe that the unfortunate admission that cattle would be raised £2 a head was at the bottom of the matter; and hon. Gentlemen representing rural constituencies had been unable to resist a prospect so pleasing to those whom they represented. If that were so he should regret it exceedingly. We were now coming to the end of that chapter in our history which would tell the deeds of the Reformed Parliament since 1832. These had given to this country more than thirty-five years of the wisest and most beneficent legislation of which the history of the world afforded any example, no part of its legislation had been be wise or so beneficent as its commercial legislation, and it would be with great regret and dismay that he should see one of the last acts of the last Reformed Parliament exhibiting a return to that policy of Protection the destruction of which had made this country one of the happiest and greatest in the world.
  MR. BRUCEsaid, in the few observations he had to address to the House, he would endeavour to adopt the moderate tone of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and would also try to contribute to the object they all ought to have in view—namely, the prevention of disease with the least possible restrictions in trade. He thought it was admitted on all hands that even if this Bill passed during the present Session its supposed advantages could not be secured for three years. That was an objection to it; but he also objected to the Bill because he thought it an imperfect measure, and one which could not produce the results which it was intended to bring about. The noble Lord who introduced the Bill (Lord Robert Montagu) had applied very hard words to some of the witnesses who had given evidence upon the subject. The noble Lord charged the
  1320
  French gentlemen who gave evidence as to what course the French Government would take to protect cattle from disease with interested motives, in order that the English markets might be opened up to foreign trade, and the noble Lord also applied very strong epithets to others of the witnesses. But he (Mr. Bruce) listened in vain to hear him mete out even-handed justice to the Duke of Richmond and other witnesses who took the other side, and gave evidence in favour of the removal of the restrictions from the London market. There were, however, some witnesses who were altogether free from the imputation of being interested in the matter. The hon. and learned Member for Dover (Mr. Freshfield) had said that the supposed opposition to the Bill on the part of the professional advisers of the Privy Council was to be attributed to a desire to retain their offices. No doubt a desire of that kind sometimes did drive men and Ministers to a very selfish line of policy; but none of the five or six witnesses who gave the strongest evidence as to the utter inadequacy of the measure to prevent the introduction of the disease into this country by means of the present Bill were in any way connected with the Government or with any special interest. Mr. Spooner, a gentleman of so much distinction in his profession that he was appointed a member of the Commission to inquire into the nature of the Cattle Plague, stated his opinion before the Committee that if a separate foreign cattle market were established in or near the metropolis, and the restrictions were taken off, we should be in a much worse condition than we were now, inasmuch as the cattle plague could be readily introduced into the metropolitan market, and communicated thence to the country at large, the infection being easily communicated by means of the clothing of individuals. Mr. Nichols, the senior surgeon of the Norfolk and Norwich Hospital, who had had much experience in the matter, gave the strongest evidence in the same direction to show that no sooner would the disease break out in the foreign cattle market than it would be communicated to the metropolis, and would spread thence throughout the country. Mr. Priestman, Mr. Thomas Wills, and Mr. James, all gentlemen of great experience, also gave evidence as to the utter inadequacy of the Bill. It was said that the effect of this measure would be to enhance the price of

  1321
  meat; but the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that any such result would be balanced by the reduction of the cost of meat at the metropolitan market, and had pointed out that there had already been a great reduction of supply to the metropolitan market, in consequence of the restrictions placed on the removal of cattle. The right hon. Member for Ashton (Mr. Milner Gibson) contradicted the right hon. Gentleman across the Table, and it had come out in the evidence that the number of cattle now brought into the metropolitan market, and sold for use in the metropolis, was greater than the number which had been brought into it before the restrictions. The noble; Lord denied that such was the fact; but if he were right, and that the restrictions in the metropolitan market diminished the supply from the metropolis, would not the restrictions proposed by this Bill in respect of foreign cattle have a similar effect? It was not alone the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had made a very candid recantation of the opinions he held in 1866; but he found that the Committee, which included among its members not only that right hon. Gentleman, but also the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland, the present Under Secretary for the Home Department, and the Under Secretary for the Foreign Department, unanimously came to the conclusion that compulsory slaughter at the port, like compulsory slaughter at a market, was very expensive to the butcher, would hamper trade, diminish importation, and raise the price to the consumer, and that therefore the separation of the two markets seemed to them undesirable. Lord Salisbury was also a Member of this Committee, and took an active part in its proceedings. What, then, was his (Mr. Bruce's) proposition? He bad already said that this Bill could not come into operation for several years. He would be willing to put up a market in the port of London for the admission of those cattle, and those cattle only, that came from suspected districts. He would admit, as they now admitted into certain of their ports, freely as was now done in France, cattle coming from districts that were not suspected, and treat them in all respects as if they were English cattle. The First Lord of the Treasury had told them that this Bill might have been unnecessary but for the failure of the Privy Council to put the law into operation. He said, with regard to the other
  1322
  parts of the country, there was no difficulty in acting upon the powers of the Privy Council. It rested with the local authorities to set aside a place for the slaughter of cattle imported from the suspected districts; and if he understood the right hon. Gentleman rightly, it was impossible to get the local authorities in London to set aside such a place. His answer was, "Apply to Parliament for the necessary powers to deal with the special difficulties of London, and he was sure that even in the present Session, Parliament would give them those powers." [Lord ROBERT MONTAGU: Hear, hear !] The noble Lord (Lord Robert Montagu) seemed to say by his cheer that is what we are now doing. But they were really doing a great deal more, because they were compelling cattle from every foreign country, whether suspected or not, to come to one market; and if the disease broke out in that market they would no longer have the power to remove the market to another place. Why should they bind themselves by a rigid law to have only one market for foreign cattle, no matter whether those cattle came from a healthy or from an unhealthy place? If they did that be was satisfied that on the very first appearance of the cattle plague in their foreign market the Government would have to come to Parliament for the very power of which they were now depriving themselves. What was the objection to arming the Privy Council with the necessary powers? It was the prevailing belief that those powers would not be exercised with sufficient vigour and determination. His answer was, "So it always would be till they reformed these Departments." It was no more incumbent on the noble Lord as Vice President of the Council to have introduced this measure than any other Member of the Government. At the time that he (Mr. H. A. Bruce) was Under Secretary of the Home Department there was a great agitation in the country respecting the importation of cattle that were suffering from the disease of pleuro-pneumonia, and he remembered that the right hon. Member for Calne (Mr. Lowe), who was then Vice President of the Council, coming to the Home Office and stating that it was clear some measures ought to be taken on the subject, as the disease was committing great ravages; but that it was not for him, as Vice President of the Council on Education, to bring in the

  1323
  Bill. The Privy Council, he said, had the power of passing certain Orders which the Government might think for the good of the State, but had no administrative means within itself for giving effect to or carrying through Parliament legislation of that kind, which it was clearly the business of the Home Office to introduce. Then he (Mr. Bruce) received directions from the then Home Secretary (Sir George Grey) to bring in a Bill giving increased powers to the Privy Council in regard to the movement of cattle suffering from plenro-pneumonia; and he might mention that the principal opposition to it came from those Scotch and Irish Members who so highly approved of the present Bill. The language then used was—"What, would you give the Privy Council power to deprive Scotch and Irish cattle from entering England?" And yet only two or three years passed away when the rinderpest broke out, and then the Irish Members held a meeting, and called upon the Government to exercise those very powers they had before opposed to prevent English cattle being carried over to Ireland. He mentioned this to guard the House against the selfishness, he did not say of these Members, but of the districts they represented. So long as they had this large question not under the undivided responsibility of one Department, it could not, in the nature of things, be wisely managed. What ought now to be done was to give the fullest powers with respect to the importation of cattle to one Department, and to make that Department responsible to Parliament, and then there would be no fear that the law would not be put in force as it was in other countries. What was now being done in France, which was exposed to greater risk than we were? Did she insist on stopping all foreign cattle on her frontiers and having them slaughtered there? On the contrary, she admitted thorn freely; but, at the same time, she kept a vigilant look-out as to the health of the cattle in different parts of Europe, and was prepared at once to arrest the introduction of cattle from any country that was suspected; while, in the meantime, she opened up to the population a supply of food drawn from all quarters of the Continent. Why could not they do the same here? After the experience of the last few years in that matter, there was no fear that the Government would show any want of due vigilance or vigour, which would draw down on them a storm
  1324
  of indignation, that no Ministry would like to face. At the present moment the complaint was not that the regulations of the Privy Council were not effectual for their object, but that they were enforced with greater rigour than was necessary. For these reasons he objected to the Bill. Its objects could be more effectually obtained, and without injury to the consumer, by other means. Besides, the Bill was most imperfect. Why should they deal with one port alone, and not have one law for every port in the kingdom. Before long there might be a change of Government, which would remove the restrictions that now existed; and cattle would be imported freely into the ports of Hull, Newcastle, and Southampton, while the greatest restrictions prevailed in the port of London. What they wanted was one uniform system of legislation. They could not pass any measure elastic enough to suit the necessities of all parts of the country, and therefore they ought to give increased powers to the Privy Council, and see that the Council exercised those powers effectually.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that the Bill would affect his constituency in two ways—first, as it attacked a portion of their trade, and one which they carried on to a considerable extent; and next, as it taxed their food. He was therefore desirous to learn what were the views of the Government on it. Though the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been good enough at length to address the House, he had carefully abstained from a single remark upon the two subjects which had been specially urged upon the attention of the Government. These two topics were the principle of public policy raised by the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Ashton (Mr. Milner Gibson), and the question of finance. The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not say one word on those topics. He (Mr. Ayrton) therefore found himself in as much difficulty as before in these respects. He did not approach this Bill in a spirit of hostility; from the first he had contended that the cattle trade should be dealt with by the joint action of town and country, and from the first he had protested against setting up distinctive interests. He had been called the father of the policy contained in the Bill; but if the noble Lord (Lord Robert Montagu) had only acted on the suggestion which he made last Session, the House would not have been troubled with the difficulties in which it was now plunged.

  1325
  His object had all along been to secure as large a supply as possible of live cattle to the metropolis from the country as well as from abroad. The population of London, as the largest consumers of meat in proportion to their numbers of any population in the kingdom, required supplies of both kinds—home and foreign. The present difficulties and obstructions arose entirely from the course taken by the Vice President and his Colleagues. The Bill had not been properly described as a Bill to establish a foreign cattle market. No doubt the Bill established a market for the supply of the metropolis, yet the market was not to be in the metropolis. It also proposed an establishment for the slaughter of cattle; an establishment for the exclusive landing of all cattle landed within the port of London; so that any vessel coming from between Gravesend and London with cattle would be compelled to go to a particular pier. There were to be also quarantine stations and roads and railways. All the vessels were to go to one port, and all the cattle were to be taken out on one pier and there slaughtered, unless they had undergone the quarantine provided for by the Privy Council, in which case they might be removed. He had never proposed or suggested so large a measure as that. It was the Chancellor of the Exchequer who, two years ago, had first launched the idea embodied in the Bill of slaughtering cattle at a particular spot on the Thames. He had divided the House against the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the House rejected it by a considerable majority. Since last year the Government had tried to embarrass the trade of cattle in the metropolis. Last year he had put a proposal on the Paper suggested to him by his constituents. It was a proposal for a market; but not to restrict the landing of cattle to any particular place. On investigating it, and believing it would act injuriously to trade, he declined to proceed with it. When that restrictive proposal was on the Paper the noble Lord made some comments upon it, and spoke of it as one that would involve the necessity of two markets that would destroy competition, and as a gigantic system of Protection. When the Bill came under consideration he had in the question of dealing with foreign cattle proposed an elastic clause in accordance with the views he had stated, and the language which he had used had been adopted in the Bill which bad actually passed. It proposed that
  1326
  the Metropolitan Board of Works, with the sanction of the ratepayers, should erect a market to which such foreign cattle should be taken as the Privy Council by Order might direct. That was the law which was passed last Session, and which was now in force. He argued that, there being power given under the Act of last Session to the Metropolitan Board to construct a market as soon as applied to by the Government, the application was not made as it ought to have been. His complaint was that the noble Lord did not and would not act upon the statute of last Session. Instead of carrying out a proper policy the noble Lord determined to carry out his own policy, that the market should be constructed by the City of London. They said they were willing, but naturally at once the Metropolitan Board said, "Go and get your market made by the City of London." The noble Lord soon found the difficulties that must result. He was embarked in an entirely new policy; a clause was passed that destroyed the rights of his constituents; compensation was claimed for those who had exercised wharfage rights for four years, and then the City of London said, "We will have nothing more to do with the Bill." He wanted to know from the Government in what position they were placed? Here was a Bill which proposed to do great things for the agricultural interest. There was a provision in the Bill to Appoint Commissioners; but there was no provision made for paying them. He was surprised that Gentlemen opposite should be so intent on making a profit of their beasts as to become the dupes of a measure which, while professing to give them everything, would really give them nothing. The Commissioners would have to purchase land at an enormous price; but where was the Aladdin's lamp which would procure them the necessary funds? Moreover, the object of the Bill would not be attained within four or five years. The powers of the Corporation of London would lapse after a year if they acquired no lands, or after three years if, having acquired lands, they took no further steps, so that for three years nothing would be done. Then a Commission without funds might be appointed, and after three years more their powers also would lapse. Now, he would put it to the Government and to hon. Gentlemen opposite whether it was worth while to proceed with a Bill of such a character? Hon. Members opposite perhaps imagined that if they got this Go-

  1327
  vernment to pass a Bill they would be able to get funds from another Government. Beyond the right of the Privy Council vetoing the incoming of foreign cattle supposed to carry the disease, he denied that restriction should exist. To implicate all the activity of foreign traders was simple stultification, and foreign Governments would be estopped from sanctioning the exportation of cattle. He asked hon. Gentlemen opposite not to send their "round robins" to the Ministry, to induce them to palm off this Bill, which stopped the very springs of commercial activity. He appealed to the opposite side on the grounds of public justice and public policy. ["Oh, oh !"] But his constituents were placed at a disadvantage in order to benefit the agricultural interest, and he altogether denied the justice of the attempt to make the port of London the scape-goat of other ports in the country. Probably, if any metropolitan boroughs returned Conservative Members, they would be able to prevail with the Government, as the Members for Liverpool had prevailed. But it was hopeless for the Government to expect from the intelligence of metropolitan constituencies the return of Conservative Members. This Bill could not pass in the present Session, for the requisite notices had not been given affecting private property. If even the Bill went up to the Lords, there must be a Committee on the subject, to consider the case of wharfingers and others whose rights were affected by the measure. As to the great question, whether the measure would raise the price of meat, Mr. Bloomfield Baker had stated before the Committee that the Government contracts alone would be increased by £1,000 per week if the Bill became law. But if this were so in the case of 30,000 or 40,000 soldiers, what would not be the result of the measure upon the food of the whole metropolis? On the ground of public policy, and in the interest of the general trade of the country, he hoped that the House would reject the measure.
  MR. DISRAELI: I hope the House will come to a division upon this stage of the Bill. We have heard in this debate that this measure is the revival of Protection. Remembering that some of the speakers to whom I have listened are distinguished for their knowledge of political economy and their opposition to all artificial systems of restriction, I am surprised that that accusation should be made so freely. We have heard something also
  1328
  about a hustings' cry, and perhaps in the scarcity of the commodity on the other side this stale sarcasm may do as well as any other. Now this is not a question of protection; it is one of precaution. It is a question really between pestilence and precaution. It is a question whether, after the experience we have had of the fell disease to which our herds and flocks have been so fatally subject, it is necessary or desirable that we should adopt some precautionary policy, and whether, on the whole, the measure proposed by my noble Friend (Lord Robert Montagu) is not the most prudent and the most proper? Now it has been asked frequently in the course of this debate, "Why do you propose to do that for London which you do not propose to do for the other ports?" We do not propose to do it for the other ports because it is already done for them. Land has been purchased in those places, and by the clauses of the existing Act we have been able to bring about a state of things which we have not been able to bring about for London. And why not for London? Simply because you cannot avail yourselves of the penalty which was provided by the existing Act in order to enforce the arrangement. What was the penalty? That if in any of those ports they did not choose to purchase the land that was necessary, and establish separate markets, the Privy Council could prevent the importation of foreign cattle. Now, how could you do that in London when you have failed to establish markets, never mind from what cause. No one for a moment could contend that the Government could take upon itself to stop the importation of foreign cattle into London, which is 92 per cent of the gross amount imported. Therefore we have not under the existing Act the means by which we can bring about in London the same results as in the other ports, and it is because we want to legislate practically for the whole country that we ask you to give us those powers which are necessary. So much for the first question that has been asked me. Then there is the other question as to the financial position of the affair, which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Milner Gibson) has brought forward, and which the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) has adverted to. Now, we must remember that in the Committee on the Bill upstairs, the City of London proposed a tariff of tolls quite satisfactory to the Committee, and that tariff was accepted. Certain clauses were framed to

  1329
  carry the general arrangements into effect, and those clauses were accepted. So much, therefore, for the financial part of the question. But then a misunderstanding arose between the Corporation of the City of London and the Metropolitan Board of Works, and what was that misunderstanding really occasioned by? As far as I can collect it was a quarrel as to who should be entitled to the surplus profits of the scheme. Well, now, if there be a misunderstanding between those two bodies as to the question of surplus profits, I think there is primâ facie evidence that the scheme would be a paying one. It is therefore unnecessary to discussion in order to ascertain how the money is to be provided; but what we want to inquire into is whether it is necessary such an arrangement should be carried into effect; and that we shall be better able to discuss in a further stage of the Bill. What we have now to decide is, whether it is necessary for the public health and the general welfare of the country that a scheme of this kind should be adopted or not. And if it be our opinion that it ought to be adopted, there can be no doubt that means will be devised by which a measure absolutely necessary may be carried out. Then we are told that we are acting in a very different way from how they act in France; and the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bruce), who spoke with moderation and authority on the subject, greatly dilated on that topic. But there is very little similarity between France and England on this subject. The importation of foreign cattle into France is very moderate indeed; it is counted only by thousands while in this country it is counted by hundreds of thousands. In fact, France has no ports of importation, except from Algiers to Marseilles, and only two inlets into France for foreign cattle by two railways—the Lille and Sambre. The traffic in France can therefore be regulated with success; for, by the law of that country, everything goes to Paris, and the cattle on arriving there are slaughtered within a very limited period. Therefore the similarity of the circumstances alluded to, and the circumstances urged by the right hon. Gentleman to warn us from pursuing a different course in this country, ought not to have much influence or authority on the opinion of the House. I hope the House, having now discussed the question for some time, is prepared to come to some decision on the subject. The House, when in Committee, will have as opportunity of
  1330
  urging in detail any practical objections, and of then being practically considered. But the great point to be remembered by the House is that the state of affairs upon the subject is most unsatisfactory; that the system of Orders in Council, which I have heard advocated from quarters in which I should not have expected them to find much favour, is one that is attended with great disadvantage to the business of the country; and that not only agricultural pursuits but the commercial interchange of the country are extremely embarrassed and disturbed if the supply to the London market is limited—and considerably limited it is—by the system which exists. I do not think I have collected from any hon. Gentlemen that they are of opinion that the system can go on without considerable modifications. I trust therefore that dismissing from our minds such really idle considerations as that this plan is a revival of Protection; but looking at it as an attempt to establish a system of wise and necessary precaution, the House will now agree to go into Committee. It is absolutely necessary that Parliament should come to some decision upon the subject, and re-assure the public mind; and as the question is precaution against foreign pestilence, I hope the House will no longer delay coming to a vote upon it.
  MR. BAZLEYattempted to address the House; but, there being loud cries for a division, said he would move the adjournment of the debate.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Basley.)
  MR. DISRAELI: I hope the hon. Gentleman will proceed with what he has got to say. I have myself been often received in that manner; but I found the House listened to me when I went on.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I should be very glad if my hon. Friend (Mr. Bazley) were disposed to withdraw his Motion for Adjournment. I am bound to say that in my opinion—especially after listening to the right hon. Gentleman—the financial part of the question has assumed an appearance still more formidable; and it is my intention to raise that question, if no other Member does so, on the Motion that you, Sir, do leave the Chair. With the extensive prospects opened out by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire (Mr. Fordyce) that this is the beginning of a system of which we have had one or two specimens, in the town, of Hull; for example, and that

  1331
  it is intended to go around the country. [Lord ROBERT MOSTAGU: We can at present.] The noble Lord did not hear the Member for Aberdeenshire then. The right hon. Gentleman says that this is a measure absolutely necessary for the public welfare, and that consequently the means for defraying the charge must be found—if that be so, why should not the means come from the Consolidated Fund? The whole of this opens up a series of questions so important that a discussion must be had upon them. If my hon. Friend would allow me, as my right hon. Friend has raised the question upon the principle of the Bill to a considerable extent, and as hon. Gentleman opposite are anxious to have an expression of opinion upon it, I would suggest that he would not stand io their way.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, he was not satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury. He hoped that the Bill would be left to he dealt with by the new Parliament.
  MR. BAZLEYsaid, he would withdraw his Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 191; Noes 82: Majority 109.
  Original Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. BAZLEYsaid, that while he disclaimed all intention to annoy Her Majesty's Government he should move that the debate be now adjourned.
  MR. DISRAELI: I trust the hon. Gentleman will not make that Motion. It will stop all the Business of the evening.
  MR. GLADSTONErose to ask what course the Government intended to take? He presumed, however, that after the division which had been just taken they would object to the adjournment of the debate. For his own part he should certainly not press the adjournment of the debate; but he wished to refer to a matter that had been hardly touched on by the Government. It had only been very briefly mentioned by the First Minister, and never until that speech was delivered. He should endeavour to set forth briefly what he had to say on that matter, in deference to the wishes of hon. Gentlemen opposite. With
  1332
  regard to the general argument he should say very little, and should touch very briefly on the points that had been brought into view during the present evening. One of those appeared to be that Gentleman opposite had urged in argument that time was of the greatest importance to them in that matter, and that a great advantage was to be gained by pressing forward the present Bill under the circumstances in which they were at present placed. Now, it appeared to him that there was no ground for such a supposition. Under the Bill twelve months were allowed for choosing a site for the new market; but why was twelve months necessary for such a purpose? He ventured to think that if the Bill were discussed six months hence, and if six months only were to be allowed for the choice of a site, no time would really be lost. ["Committee !"] His argument, he might remark, did not refer to any particular clause; but to the expediency of pressing the Bill forward at the present time. He was afraid that the longer the discussion on this Bill was protracted the more it would assume the very invidious, not not to say odious, aspect of a battle of class interests. However much some hon. Gentlemen might exert themselves to divest it of that character, he was sorry to say that the language of others tended very much to give it that character; and when a new Parliament met, it would not be a graceful recollection of the last act of the old one that a measure of that kind was carried into effect that Session. He was persuaded that many hon. Gentlemen were urging forward this Bill under the honest belief that it was a measure of precaution, and he had no doubt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was perfectly sincere when he said that while there would be temporary inconveniences, the trade would soon be re-organized, and that matters would then go on as well as, if not better, than before. Such a prophecy would have been the more comforting but for the existence of certain facts relative to the effects of a similar system of precaution at Hull. Indeed, he was somewhat astonished that the case of Hull had not been mentioned either by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer or by the right hon. Gentleman the First Minister of the Crown. He would therefore briefly re-capitulate the facts. In the first place, however, he must express his belief that the right hon. Gentleman at the Head of the Government was entirely wrong when he stated that the

  1333
  foreign cattle trade of the port of London was 92 per cent of the whole foreign cattle trade of the country. Of course he could not at the moment quote the precise figures; but his impression was that the out-port trade—to use the expression of the Customs—was about five-twelfths, and certainly more than four twelfths of the entire cattle trade. The right hon. Gentleman's argument therefore fell to the ground. Hull was a port which had a thriving and rapidly growing cattle trade. In 1864 it imported 30,000 cattle, 38,000 sheep and lambs, and 7,000 swine. The next year the figures were as follows:—41,000 cattle, 69,000 sheep and lambs, and 15,000 swine. In 1866 the precautionary measure came into effect, and the result was that the 41,000 cattle fell to 26,000, the 69,000 sheep and lambs to 48,000, and the 15,000 swine to 8,000. Nor was the effect of the measure of precaution then exhausted, for in 1867 the numbers were—17,000 cattle, 9,000 sheep and lambs, and under 4,000 swine. The figures for 1868 were of course incomplete; but he was told that at the present time the cattle trade of Hull exhibited in a yet more satisfactory manner the extreme efficacy of the precautions which had been taken. It was idle, therefore, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to suppose that by general prophecies and promises, which he would do his best to fulfil, he was to carry to disturbed, mistrustful minds any comfortable assurance that his expectations for London were to stand against the evidence of facts and figures already in their hands with respect to the case of Hull. He had no doubt that hon. Gentlemen were sincere when they said they did not want protection; but he apprehended that until the facts and figures he had quoted had been answered, it was clear that the operation of the measure would be something like the extinction of the foreign cattle trade. Such was the case with respect to the probable effect of the Bill on the supply of food, and his right hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Bruce) had shown that the scientific evidence of veterinary surgeons proved it to be in a prominent degree worthless as a measure of precaution. Then came the question as to the efficacy of Privy Council regulations versus statutory restrictions; and why, he would ask, did the Government not enforce compulsory slaughter in the metropolis on their own responsibility, instead of asking the House to relieve them of that responsibility:
  1334
  and put itself in their place? He, for one, contended that the arrangement of proceeding by means of the Executive Government, subject to the control of Parliament, and the consequent revocation of errors that might arise, was one which was infinitely to be preferred to a rigid system of statutory restriction such as that which was urged on the acceptance of the House. Then they had further to consider the financial question, and if that question had had been formidable before they had heard the addresses of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and of the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government, it was at present far more formidable. The case presented by the First Minister of the Crown was no case at all. The right hon. Gentleman at the Head of the Government invited the House to go into Committee to consider the subject in its financial aspect; but he must be permitted to say that no Government measure involving a large outlay had ever been dealt with in that way. It was the absolute duty of the Government, he maintained, to produce before the Speaker left the Chair their financial plan, to show what charge would be incurred under the operation of the Bill, and how that charge was to be met. The right hon. Gentleman sought to put the House off with generalities; but he felt assured that if the measure was passed in its present shape the question of finance would hereafter arise in one shape or another. What, be would ask, were the funds out of which the proposed market was to be supported? As things now stood, the cattle trade of the metropolis was concentrated in a single market, which represented but one source of expense. On the fund by which that market was supported it was, however, sought to throw a double charge, although it was not a fund which yielded a surplus, but one which, on the contrary, was encumbered with a deficiency of £7,000 a year. If that were so, how was the deficiency to be supplied and provision made for the additional charge which would be imposed if the Bill were to pass into a law? What were the sources from which it was conceivable the new charge could be met? It might, perhaps, be thought that it could be met by means of the dues on foreign cattle; but, so far as he could see, we could not levy one penny more on such cattle than on British cattle admitted to a British market. He was of that opinion because of the faith of treaties. A common stipulation in treaties

  1335
  was what was called the equality treatment, which had reference to dues and charges of all kinds. He recollected very well that in 1860, when the French Treaty was entered into, and it was contemplated to levy certain petty charges in the port of London, a special article had to be introduced to prevent their imposition. The Government, therefore, could not hope to raise the revenue required for the new market by taxing foreign at a higher rate than British cattle. The next source of revenue open to them was, as had been stated, the property of the City of London; but the citizens had, he believed, beyond all doubt, washed their hands of the Bill. He, for one, protested against the idea that the ratepayers of the metropolis were to be looked to to defray the necessary charges, and he did not suppose for a moment that they would willingly submit to any measure which would tend to limit the supply of food. The next source to which recourse might be had was the Consolidated Fund. The meaning of the statement of the Head of the Government that this was necessary for the public welfare, and that some means of getting the requisite money must be devised, was that the public must provide the money; and he wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman contemplated getting those means from the Consolidated Fund? Another mode of getting at the treasure of the public was by way of guarantee. The Chancellor of the Exchequer shook his head, and he was glad to understand from the demeanour of the right hon. Gentleman that when he said there was to be no charge on the Consolidated Fund, he meant to include no direct or contingent charge by way of guarantee; but what was said by the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) was strictly true—that Commissioners were to be set up without any money to bless themselves with. They were about to do that which had been done too often before—namely, to delude the farmers by professing to do wonderful things on their behalf, which, when put to the test, proved wholly futile. If it was intended to deal in an open and trustworthy manner with the agricultural interest, the financial part of the Bill must be made a reality. He hoped that the Government would give a clear statement of their intentions.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he regretted that when he before addressed the House he was not
  1336
  aware of the challenge that during his absence had been thrown out to him respecting the financial part of the measure. The points raised by the right hon. Gentleman opposite are no doubt worthy of attention, and he would take them one by one. The right hon. Gentleman had asked why the Bill was pressed with such urgency? Why could it not stand over till next Session? Because, after it was passed, another Bill, founded upon it, would have to be introduced, giving powers for the acquisition of the site of the intended market; a provisional Motion would have to be passed, and notice to be given to the persons interested in the site. The right hon. Gentleman had next instanced the case of Hull, as an answer to the argument that the Bill would occasion a larger supply to the market. The right hon. Gentleman had pointed to the decline in the number of cattle, sheep, and swine imported into Hull as the consequence of the Order in Council, compelling beasts to be slaughtered at the place of lauding; but he had apparently forgotten that the Order applied only to cattle, and not to sheep, lambs, or swine, unless imported in the same vessel with cattle; and it was therefore plain that the Order in Council could not be held to be the cause of so serious a decline in the importations of Hull. The fact, he believed, was that the restrictive regulations of the various foreign Governments checked the importation from abroad, and also that the French ports during the period in question offered a better market to breeders; for even in London, where compulsory slaughter in a separate market was not enforced, the importation of cattle had fallen from 147,000 in 1864 to 125,000 in 1867. With regard to the financial part of the question, he observed that the Bill in its present shape was not the Bill as introduced by the Government. When the Bill was first introduced the City of London engaged to carry out its provisions, provided it had the tolls under Schedules of the Bill; but when the Bill went before the Select Committee the old rivalry between the Metropolitan Board of Works and the City of London broke out afresh. The surplus was, under the Bill, to go to the market authority; but in the Committee the Bill was altered so that the surplus should go to the reduction of the tolls. It was therefore no wonder that there should be some reluctance on the part of the City to carry out the Bill. But if the City declined to

  1337
  do so the Metropolitan Board would become the market authority. At the instigation of the right hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. Goschen), who was certainly not a supporter of the Bill, the clause relating to the City of London was struck out. That might be a proof of the ingenuity of the right hon. Gentleman; but it was certainly no reason why a charge should be brought against the Government with reference to the market authority. The view of his noble Friend (Lord Robert Montagu) who had charge of the Bill was to restore it to the shape in which it was when it went up to the Committee, so as to leave it to the City of London to receive the tolls as the market authority, and appropriate the surplus as they appropriated their other funds. But if they declined, the Metropolitan Board would become the market authority, and the surplus would go to them instead of to the reduction of tolls. Independently, therefore, of the Commissioners, they had here two responsible and important bodies, who, if they restored the Bill to its original shape, would be perfectly willing either of them to become the market authority. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Milner Gibson) very properly observed that they should not put higher tolls on animals imported under the provisions of this Bill than before. But so far from being higher the tolls were considerably lower. The tolls in the Schedule were 2s. 6d. per head instead of 5s. 11 d., as in the metropolitan cattle market.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, that was not so. Instead of being 5s. 11 d. in the metropolitan cattle market, cattle under the same circumstances were only charged 3d. per head.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that was a question of fact which might be very easily settled. All he could say was, that if they passed this Bill as presented by the Government, there would be a perfect security that it would be properly carried out in the fact that the City of London would be willing to undertake it as the market authority. It was therefore idle for the right hon. Gentleman to say that financially the Bill would not hold water.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire had advised the House not to delude the farmers, and he made a strong statement with respect to Hull, where what he called the foreign trade had been almost
  1338
  extinguished. But had not the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends, with the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton), urged the House to continue the very system of Privy Council Orders which the right hon. Gentleman said had all but extinguished the foreign trade at Hull? Was there not something to delude in that? And then as to the ratepayers of the City of London, were they not also deluded by having the extinction of trade put on them by the Privy Council Orders instead of by statute? Hon. Gentlemen talked of the fettering of trade; but was not trade fettered now? Was the time ever known when the people of the metropolis paid so large a price for their meat as they did now? And why was there such a large margin between the price paid to the producer and the price paid by the consumer? It was all very well for the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets and the Whitechapel butchers to talk upon this subject; but was there no delusion here? The very large difference between the wholesale and retail price of meat was owing to the restrictions which the Privy Council placed on trade. But it was said what was the use of passing this Bill when twelve months' notice was given for purchasing a site for the market? But why should these twelve months not be limited to six? That might be done in Committee. He believed all the financial difficulties might easily be cleared away. If not it would only show what remained to be done by the new Parliament. But the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire said they had no right to deal with such a question, for they were a dying body. The right hon. Gentleman, however, did not seem to consider that when dealing with the Irish Church.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I never used the words the right hon. Gentleman is putting into my mouth, nor anything like them.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, that if they had cleared away the difficulties in the path instead of uselessly protracting the debate by pressing the same speeches over and over again, they would either have carried the Bill through Committee by this time, or else have left it in a condition much more accessible to the legislation of the new Parliament.
  MR. NORWOODsaid, that the Orders of the Privy Council were sent temporarily, while the Bill would be permanent it its operation. With regard to the question of imports, the cause of the decline was the

  1339
  prohibition on importers to send surplus imports into the country, and the impossibility to regulate the supply to the wants of each particular port. If it were intended to erect the necessary buildings for only two years, they were incurring a monstrous outlay for a very small object. He condemned the Bill as one which would occasion great loss without possessing sufficient compensating advantages.
  SIR CHARLES RUSSELLmade an appeal to the First Minister of the Crown. Seeing that the agriculturists of England, Ireland, and Scotland felt so strongly on this question, and seeing that the decision of the House had been marked so emphatically in favour of the Bill, he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to give his consent to postpone the prorogation of Parliament a sufficient time to enable this truly Protectionist measure to be proceeded with.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would now consent to the adjournment of the debate. The Statements which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman the First Minister, and by the right hon. Gentlemen the Chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to the financial part of the Bill were such as to render a further discussion of the main principle of the Bill absolutely necessary. He was not averse to any reasonable arrangement in favour of the agricultural interest; but he protested against the extravagant clauses contained in the present Bill. He made the suggestion that the debate should be adjourned in order to save another division, and perhaps a long series of divisions.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, he would have consented to an adjournment of the debate before the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gladstone) spoke. But as that right hon. Gentleman had had an opportunity of which he had availed himself of speaking upon the financial part of the Bill, and as his observations had been answered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, there was really no reason whatever why the main principle of the Bill should be further discussed, and why the House should not at once go into Committee upon that Bill. He should certainly oppose the Motion for Adjournment.
  MR. GOSCHENsaid, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had replied to his right hon. Friend, but he had certainly not answered him—["Oh, oh !"]. He had given no answer to the question, where the funds
  1340
  were to come from to carry out the Bill, if the City and the Board of Works had no money, and were not empowered to borrow for the purpose. The question was left exactly as it was left when his right hon. Friend sat down.
  MR. DE GREYsaid, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) would consider favourably the appeal made to him by his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Berkshire (Sir Charles Russell) not to prorogue the Parliament till this measure was passed. Such a step, though it would be a sacrifice of time and trouble, would be appreciated by the country; and if the Bill were passed into a law this codicil to the will of a moribund Parliament would be a legacy gratefully acknowledged by all classes.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Bazley.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 55; Noes 155: Majority 100.
  Original Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. COWENsaid, they had been there for fourteen hours and had to meet again at two o'clock in the afternoon, and he therefore moved the adjournment of the House.
  MR. DISRAELItrusted that the House would not embark in these barren and distressing practices which they appeared likely to pursue. He hoped that after the very large majorities which had been in favour of going into Committee, the hon. Gentleman would withdraw his Motion, particularly as those majorities were furnished not from that side of the House alone. He did not desire to say anything by way of menace; but if the hon. Gentleman persisted in these Motions, he should not continue to oppose them in the present jaded state of the House, more particularly as there was to be another Sitting that day. It was the usual practice of minorities to defer to the opinions of the majority, especially when that majority had been so large as it had been that evening; and he trusted, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman would not persevere in the course he was now adopting.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, he had understood from the right hon. Gentleman that he would not have objected to the adjournment of the debate if it had been moved before the speech of his right hon.

  1341
  Friend the Member for South Lancashire had been delivered. ["Oh, oh !"] The right hon. Gentleman bad so stated and said so still. ["Oh !"] He trusted therefore that the hon. Gentleman would press his Motion.
  COLONEL JERVISsaid, he thought that both sides of the House should clearly understand the position in which they now were. The opponents of the measure should understand that those who supported it would go into Committee if they continued dividing till two o'clock to-morrow after noon.
  MR. COWENsaid, he could tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Jervis) that he too would sit there, if necessary, till two o'clock to-morrow afternoon.
  SIR LAWRENCE PALKpointed out to the opponents of the measure that they would be in no worse position if they permitted the Speaker to leave the Chair than they now were. [An hon. MEMBER: Yes, we shall; very much.] He trusted that for the sake of the character of the House the present factious proceedings would not be persisted in.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, it was not usual when there were Morning Sittings to discuss opposed Business at that hour. He hoped the First Minister would give some assurance that he would assent to an adjournment of the House.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Cowen.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 38; Noes 131: Majority 93.
  Original Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. CHEETHAM MR. CHEETHAM moved the adjournment of the debate.
  MR. FRESHFIELDcomplained that the Bill had been treated in a most discreditable manner by the Gentlemen opposite.
  MR. MONKsaid, he hoped the House would go into Committee that night. He; protested against these continued Motions for Adjournment. There were a great many even on the Liberal side who were in favour of the Bill, and he thought it ought to be proceeded with.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, there were a number of Gentlemen who were determined to oppose the Bill at all hazards.
  MR. RUSSELL GURNEYsaid, he had felt strongly opposed to the Bill; but
  1342
  it had been fairly fought in all its stages, and further opposition to the Speaker's leaving the Chair ought now to be discontinued.
  MR. AYRTONcalled attention to the fact that the First Minister of the Crown had left the House, and asked who was in charge of the Business of the House.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, that the Prime Minister was willing, supposing the House went into Committee, to report Progress at once, and fix the Bill for Monday.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Cheetham.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 30; Noes 130: Majority 100.
  Original Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. P. A. TAYLOR MR. P. A. TAYLOR moved the adjournment of the House.
  MR. LABOUCHEREseconded the Motion.
  COLONEL JERVISasked what were the forms of the House. If necessary, those on the Ministerial side of the House would walk continually into the Lobbies till ten in the morning.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Peter Taylor.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 31; Noes 132: Majority 101.
  Original Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. CANDLISH MR. CANDLISH moved the adjournment of the debate.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Candlish.)
  VISCOUNT GALWAYmade an appeal to hon. Members opposite on behalf of the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair. They were hardly treating him fairly by keeping him in the House at that late hour, mid he hoped they would not press the Motion for the adjournment.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, he had intended rising to make a similar observation. If hon. Members had no consideration for themselves, they should at least have some consideration for the Speaker, who had, with the exception of the two hours between four and six, been practically in the Chair since twelve o'clock, and it was now twenty minutes to three.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, he felt obliged to those Gentlemen who had made that appeal in his behalf. But he wished that hon. Members, without any reference to his convenience, should be guided by what they considered proper and suitable and becoming the dignity of the House.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONasked why the Irish Registration Bill had been placed after the Bill under discussion? The Irish Members had been pressed to wait for it; and why? Because it was known they were generally favourable to the Cattle Bill, and would, of course, support the Government. ["Oh. oh !"]
  MR. NOELdenied the statement.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, he was quite ready to admit the opposition, which had been as industrious as the Government's; but he maintained that indirectly the effect had been as he had stated. He, however, recommended his hon. Friend (Mr. Candlish) not to press his Motion.
  MR. CANDLISH, reminding hon. Members opposite it would have been more consistent if they had consulted the Speaker's comfort hours before, withdrew his Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
  Bill considered in Committee; House resumed; Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. SCLATER-BOOTH, Bill to continue various Expiring Laws, ordered to be brought in by Mr. SCLATER-BOOTH and Mr. Secretary GATHORNE HARDY.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 241.]

  WOODS AND GAME ASSESSMENT BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. READ, Bill to assess Woods and Game to Local Rates, ordered to be brought in by Mr. READ and Mr. JASPER MORE.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 242.]
  House adjourned at Three o'clock in the morning.

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod—The Lord Willoughby de Eresby added.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Sanitary Act (1800) Amendment * (252); Turnpike Acts Continuance * (253); Public Schools * (262); Tithes Commutation, & c. Acts Amendment * (256); Vaccination (Ireland) * (254); Municipal Elections (Scotland) * (263); Militia Pay *; Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supplemental (No. 3) * (255); Public Departments Payments * (264).
Second Reading—Contagious Diseases Act(l866) Amendment * (185); Court of Session (Scotland) * (246); Portpatrick and Belfast and County Down Railway Companies * (238).
Committee—Ecclesiastical Commissioners * (221–259); Lunatic Asylums (Ireland) Accounts Audit * (237); Assignees of Marine Policies * (225); Poor Law and Medical Inspectors (Ire land) * (222); Clerks of the Peace, & c. (Ireland) * (224–261); Petit Juries (Ireland) *
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(231); Divorce and Matrimonial Causes Court * (123); Indorsing of Warrants * (240); Court of Justiciary (Scotland) * (232); Ecclesiastical Buildings and Glebes (Scotland) * (233).
Report—West Indies * (249); Entail Amendment (Scotland) * (183); Assig
nees of Marina Policies * (225–260); Poor Law and Medical Inspectors (Ireland) (222); Petit Juries (Ireland) * (231); Divorce and Matrimonial Causes Court * (123); District Church Tithes Act Amendment * (251); Indorsing of Warrants * (240).
Third Reading—Land Writs Registration (Scotland) * (213); University Elections (Voting Papers) * (201); Turnpike Trusts Arrangements * (206); Metropolitan Police Funds * (230); Fairs (Metropolis) * (233); Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supplemental (No. 2) * (207); Libel (Ireland) * (209); Railways (Ireland) Acts Amendment * (177); Local Government Supplemental (No. 3) * (194); Hudson's Bay Company * (244).
Royal Assent—Reformatory Schools (Ireland) [31 & 32 Vict.c. 59]; Renewable Leasehold Conversion (Ireland) Act Extension [31 & 32 Vict.c. 62]; Registration [31 & c 32 Vict.c. 58]; Bank of Bombay [31 & 32 Vict.c. 63]; Consular Marriages [31 & c. 2Vict.c. 61]; Curragh of Kildare [31 & c 32 Vict.c. 60].

PRIVATE BILLS—RAILWAY BILLS—INCREASE OF RATES.

  STANDING ORDER.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that, while he agreed in the principle of the Resolution passed by their Lordships a few evenings ago on the Motion of his noble Friend (Lord Taunton), yet it required some little modification. The alteration he proposed was principally confined to the addition that the Report of the Board of Trade should be made "after the Bill had been read a first time in this House." With regard to the policy of increasing the fares and rates on railways, a parallel case would be the tolls on turnpike roads. In the case of turnpike trusts, money had been borrowed and roads had been made, many of which had been ruined by the railways. The policy of Parliament in such cases had been not to increase the tolls, but to reduce the interest, in order that the debt might be paid off. He was more strongly than ever of opinion that no separate increase of tolls should be granted to any railway company. No doubt peculiar circumstances might arise, but they would be such as to apply to all railways, and not to any one in particular. If Parliament once admitted the principle that when a railway by its mismanagement and improvidence had brought itself into difficulties it might come and ask for an increase of fares, there would be no end

  1227
  to such cases. The Legislature would, in fact, be offering a premium upon railway mismanagement.
  Standing Order No. 179. amended by inserting after Section 3. the following Section:—
  Section 4. That no Bill which proposes to increase the Rates now payable on the Conveyance of Goods or Passengers on any Railway shall be read a Second Time until a Report from the Board of Trade on the Subject, made after the Bill has been read a First Time in this House, shall have been laid upon the Table of the House.
  Ordered, That the said Standing Order, as amended, be printed.

PROMISSORY OATHS BILL—(No. 243.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)
Commons' Amendments considered (according to Order).
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND THE DUKE OF RICHMOND moved that the Amendments made by the Commons in this Bill be agreed to.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that there was a misapprehension abroad as to the 8th clause. There was a notion that the clause as it stood went so far as not only to repeal the Oath of Supremacy, but to exonerate the clergy altogether from any obligation to recognize the Supremacy of the Crown. He believed that was a totally erroneous idea; but, as the matter was one of very great importance, he had spoken to the Lord Chancellor about it, and he wished to know from the noble and learned Lord what his opinion was Upon the subject?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My noble Friend has been good enough to inform me beforehand of his intention to ask this Question. I own that I am myself very glad that the noble Earl has mentioned this subject to your Lordships, because, judging from observations made elsewhere, there does appear to be a considerable amount of misunderstanding as to the Oath of Supremacy, and as to the consequences of any repeal of that Oath. There can be no greater mistake than to suppose that the Oath of Supremacy and what I may term the law and doctrine of the Queen's Supremacy are the same thing, or that they have been in recent times co-extensive. In point of fact, from circumstances which can be easily explained, the Oath which has been called the Oath of Supremacy has for a long time—for nearly two centuries—ceased to express in any shape or form the doctrine
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of the Supremacy of the Sovereign. The Supremacy of the Sovereign depends upon a sanction very much higher than the obligation of an oath. Sir Matthew Hale and Lord Coke both say that the Royal Supremacy rests on the Common Law and requires no statute to support it. The three main statutes which relate to the Royal Supremacy are the 24, 25, & 26 Henry VIII. I will not trouble your Lordships by quoting at length from these statutes; but I will mention the words of one of them—the 25 Henry VIII.—from which your Lordships will see the form of legislation then adopted with regard to the Supremacy of the Crown. It says—
"This your Grace's realm, recognizing no superiority under God but only your Grace, hath been and is free from any subjection to any man's laws; but only to such as have been devised, made, and ordained within this realm, for the wealth of the same, or to such other as by sufferance of your Grace and your progenitors the people of this your realm have taken at their free liberty, by their own consent to be used among them, and have bound themselves by long use and custom to the observance of the same, not as to the observance of laws of any foreign Prince, Potentate, or Prelate, but as to the customed and ancient laws of this realm, originally established as laws of the same, by the said sufferance, consents, and custom, and none otherwise."
And, further, the 24 Henry VIII. states that—
"Whereby divers sundry old authentic histories and chronicles it is manifestly declared and expressed, that this realm of England is an empire, and so hath been accepted in the world, governed by one supreme head and King, having the dignity and Royal estate of the Imperial Crown of the same; unto whom a body politick, compact of all sorts and degrees of people, divided in term, and by names of spirituality and temporality, been bounden and owen to bear, next to God a natural and humble obedience; he being also institute and furnished, by the goodness and sufferance of Almighty God, with plenary, whole and entire power, pre-eminence, authority, prerogative, and jurisdiction, to render and yield justice and final determination to all manner of folk, resiants, or subjects within this his realm in all causes, matters, debates, and contentions happening to occur, insurge, or begin within the limits thereof, without restraint or provocation to any foreign Princes or Potentates of the world."
That was the form in which the Supremacy of the Sovereign in matters temporal and ecclesiastical stood in the reign of Henry VIII. As a matter of history, your Lordships will remember that all these Acts were repealed in the reign of Mary. but were re-enacted in the 1st of Elizabeth; and you may take as one of the most condensed explanations of the

1229
legislation of the 1st of Elizabeth the statement of Mr. Hallam, who says—
"The two statutes enacted in the first year of Elizabeth, commonly called the Acts of Supremacy and Uniformity, are the main links of the Anglican Church with the temporal Constitution, and establish the subordination and dependency of the former."
Now, these statutes of Elizabeth continue to the present day; they are the statutes which are the full and broad expression of the Royal Supremacy; they are binding upon every subject of the realm, whether a layman or a clergyman; and so far as the declaration of the law and the stringency of the law go, that law would remain binding upon every subject of the Crown, whether he did or did not take any Oath or make any declaration respecting it. But now, as regards the case of the clergy, before coming to the Oath of Supremacy, as it is somewhat inaccurately called—the clergy, independently of all statutes and of all rules, are in a position essentially differing from the laity in this respect—that they subscribe, among other things, the 37th Article of Religion, and declare, on ordination and on taking possession of any benefice, that—
"The Queen's Majesty hath the chief power in this Realm of England and other her Dominions, unto whom the chief Government of all estates of this Realm, whether they be Ecclesiastical or Civil, in all causes doth appertain; and is not, nor ought to be, subject to any foreign Jurisdiction."
Therefore, in addition to the general laws which bind all the subjects, there is this specific declaration signed by all clergymen at their ordination, which has a peculiar operation on their consciences from the form of expression used. That is the state of the case as to the law of Supremacy; but as to the Oath of Supremacy, the history of it is a very singular one. Originally, the Oath of Supremacy was passed in the reign of Elizabeth, and it really was what its name professed to be; it was an expression of the law and doctrine of Supremacy in all its breadth—
"I, A. B., do utterly testify and declare in my conscience that the Queen's Highness is the only Supreme Governor of this Realm, and of all other Her Highness's Dominions and countries, as well in all spiritual or ecclesiastical things or causes as temporal; and that no foreign Prince, Person, Prelate, State, or Potentate, hath, or ought to have any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority ecclesiastical or spiritual within this Realm; and, therefore, I do utterly renounce and forsake all foreign jurisdictions, powers, superiorities, and authorities, and do promise that from henceforth I shall bear faith and true allegiance to the Queen's Highness, her
1230
heirs and lawful successors, and to my power shall assist and defend all jurisdictions, pre-eminences, privileges, and authorities granted or belonging to the Queen's Highness, her heirs and successors, or united and annexed to the Imperial Crown of this Realm."
Your Lordships will observe that that was an Oath which had both an affirmative and a negative part. The affirmative part testified to the existence of the Royal Supremacy in all matters ecclesiastical and temporal; the negative part disowned the jurisdiction of any foreign Prince. The second form in which the Oath passed was after the Revolution in the reign of "William and Mary, when a remarkable change was made in it; the affirmative part of the Oath was omitted, and it became a negative Oath only—
"I, A. B., do swear that I do from my heart abhor, detest, and abjure, as impious and heretical, that damnable doctrine and position, that Princes excommunicated or deprived by the Pope, or any authority of the See of Rome, may be deposed or murdered by their subjects, or any other whatsoever. And I do declare that no foreign Prince, Person, Prelate, State, or Potentate, hath or ought to have any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this Realm."
There is no doubt it continued to be called the Oath of Supremacy, but it utterly failed to express a large part of the doctrine of Supremacy. It denied the supremacy of any foreign prince or potentate, but it failed to affirm the Supremacy of the Sovereign in matters ecclesiastical and temporal. That was the second form of the Oath. The third Oath, adopted in 1858, still continued simply a negation; and the Act of 1858 used these words—
"Instead of Oaths of Allegiance, Supremacy, and Abjuration, when the same are now by law required to he taken, and taken and subscribed respectively, the following Oath shall be taken and subscribed."
I should have imagined from these words that the intention was that the name of the Oath of Supremacy should cease. However that may be, the only words again touching the Supremacy in this Oath are as follows:—
"I do declare that no foreign Prince, Person, Prelate, State, or Potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, preeminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this Realm; and I make this declaration upon the true faith of a Christian."
Your Lordships will see that this was still a negative Oath without any affirmative words. The fourth time that the Oath was dealt with was in 1865 by the Clerical Subscription Act, which enacted that—

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"Every person about to be ordained priest or deacon shall, before ordination, in the presence of the Archbishop or Bishop by whom he is about to be ordained, at such time as he may appoint, make and subscribe the declaration of assent, and take and subscribe the Oath of Allegiance and Supremacy according to the form set forth in the Act of 1858."
Therefore, before the present Bill was brought into Parliament, the law of Supremacy continued without any change. The clergy subscribed the 37th Article, which affirmed that law in all its breadth, and they took in addition what was called rather improperly the Oath of Supremacy, which was nothing more than a negation of the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome. This Bill does not alter in any way the doctrine or the law of Supremacy, which is left exactly as it stood. Every clergyman is under the same obligation as before to subscribe the Thirty-nine Articles, including the 37th. All that the Bill does is to terminate that Oath of negation which, as regards a clergyman, is perfectly unnecessary, because it is contained in the 37th Article; and as regards all the other subjects of the Crown, it is unnecessary too, because the subject-matter of that Oath of negation is regulated by the general law of the country, whether the Oath continues or not. I think, therefore, your Lordships will be of opinion that there is really no ground for any of the apprehensions that have been entertained that the law or doctrine of Supremacy is in any way interfered with by this Bill.
LORD WESTBURY: As one of the Members of the Select Committee to which this Bill was referred, I beg leave to be allowed to make a few observations respecting it. Notwithstanding what has fallen from my noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor)—which in law and good sense too, is perfectly correct—I very much regret that we permitted this Bill to come down with one form of expression which is contained in it. For although to persons conversant with the subject that form of expression cannot create any error or lead to misconception, yet to the generality of persons I am afraid it will give vise to considerable difficulty. The form of expression I allude to is that contained in the 8th section, whereby it is proposed to enact that—
"The form of the Oath of Allegiance provided by this Act shall be deemed to be substituted in the case of the Clerical Subscription Act, 1865, for the form of the Oath of Allegiance and Supremacy therein referred to."
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This mode of expression seems to import that the Oath of Supremacy shall henceforth be annulled, and the simple Oath of Allegiance substituted for it. Now, it is perfectly true, as the Lord Chancellor has said, that it does not in the smallest degree affect the obligations of the clergy or the obligations of the laity. Supreme jurisdiction in ecclesiastical matters in all cases ecclesiastical or spiritual is the essence of the Supremacy of the Crown. The Crown has not supremacy in any matter of doctrine, nor any authority whatever to assert anything with respect to doctrine except the meaning of the written law. The Supremacy of the Crown is this—that all jurisdiction proceeds from the Crown, and must be exercised by virtue of appointments made by the Crown. The final jurisdiction in all matters ecclesiastical and spiritual is centred in the Crown. Now, your Lordships will be good enough to observe that I use the word "jurisdiction," and not "authority." There may be spiritual authority and pastoral authority; but jurisdiction, which is the right jus dicendi, is vested in the Crown, and can only be exercised by authority of the Crown. This was the prerogative of the Kings of England even before the Reformation. At the time of the Reformation the Supremacy of the Crown was finally asserted and established in this—that there should be no appeal to Rome, but that the ultimate decision of all ecclesiastical cases should centre in the Crown, and in persons appointed for that purpose by the Crown. My noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack has stated what is the true idea of the Supremacy of the Crown. It is also given in the right form in the words by which the clergy bid us pray for the Queen as being "in all matters ecclesiastical and spiritual within these her dominions supreme." Supreme, as I have already observed, for the purpose of finally declaring the law upon these subjects. The 37th Article also contains a correct expression of the positive or affirmative doctrine of the Supremacy of the Crown, and, after laying this down, it proceeds to give a more express definition. It says—
"The Queen's Majesty hath the chief power in this Realm of England and other her Dominions, unto whom the chief Government of all Estates in this Realm, whether they be Ecclesiastical or Civil, in all causes doth appertain; and is not, nor ought to be, subject to any foreign Jurisdiction. When we attribute to the Queen's Majesty the chief Government, by which Titles we

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understand the minds of some slanderous folks to be offended, we give not to our Princes the ministering either of God's Word or of the Sacraments, the which things the Injunctions also set forth by Elizabeth our Queen do most plainly testify, but that only Prerogative which we see to have been given always to all godly Princes in Holy Scripture by God himself; that is, that they should rule all Estates and Degrees committed to their charge by God, whether they be Ecclesiastical or Temporal, and restrain with the civil sword the stubborn and evil doers. The Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this Realm of England."
The temporal sword and the spiritual sword are, for the purposes of ruling all estates and degrees, constitutionally vested in the Sovereign, but the office of the clergyman is not interfered with.
In answer to an observation of the Earl of HARROWBY,
LORD WESTBURYsaid, that if he had observed the form of expression contained in the Bill, he would have suggested the propriety of altering it.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the history of the legislation on the subject was not creditable in respect of the way in which Acts of Parliament were drawn. The Act of 1865 was drawn at a late period of the Session, and an Amendment was inserted introducing the term "Oath of Supremacy and Allegiance" contained in the Act of 1858: and that error had been perpetuated in the present Bill.
Commons, Amendments agreed to.

THE WAR OFFICE—DEPARTMENT OF CONTROL.—QUESTION.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONasked the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether the Arrangements for the Establishment of the new Department of Control in the War Office and for the closer Union of the Civil Departments of the Army are completed; and, if so, whether he will state the general Nature of those Arrangements? Their Lordships were no doubt aware that the evidence taken by Lord Strathnairn's Committee afforded convincing proof that the existing arrangements in regard to the administration of the civil branch of the army were highly unsatisfactory. Those who took an interest in the subject had watched carefully what had gone on, and he believed everyone who took any interest in the army heard with satisfaction in November last of the appointment to the office of Controller of Sir Henry Storks. He (Earl de Grey) fully approved the step, and he believed that Sir Henry was the very fittest man
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that could have been selected. Sir Henry Storks entered on his duties on the 1st of January; and the question now was what was to be the practical result of that appointment, and what steps were to be taken to promote the union of the separate Departments, as recommended by Lord Strathnairn's Committee. It was not until the month of June, however, that any information was given or any discussion took place as to the results of Sir Henry's appointment. At that time there was laid before the other House of Parliament the Correspondence which had passed between the Treasury and the War Department. When the Correspondence first appeared he (Earl de Grey) turned to it with much interest, in the hope that it would afford a clear explanation of the position which Sir Henry Storks was to occupy in the War Department as Controller-in-Chief, likewise of the duties which he was to discharge, and of the steps taken with the view of carrying out the amalgamation during the six months which had elapsed since his appointment. He regretted to say, however, that after a careful perusal of the Correspondence he could not find in it that full and clear information which he trusted would have been afforded, and consequently he had felt it his duty before this Session closes to ask the noble Earl opposite, the Under Secretary of State, to supplement the information contained in the Correspondence, and to clear up some points which were obscure. Now, in order that he might make clear to the noble Earl and to their Lordships his object in asking the Question of which he had given Notice he must in the first place remark that he was strongly convinced that one of the most important reforms in connection with our military Departments was that closer union of the various civil Departments of the army—the Commissariat, Purveyors, Transport, and Barrack Departments—which formed the basis of the recommendations of Lord Strathnairn's Committee. He believed, indeed, that the present state of these Departments was so unsatisfactory that if we were to engage in a European war we should at the outset of such an undertaking find ourselves involved in serious difficulties. Therefore, as he understood the matter, the first and principal duty of the Controller-in-Chief was to effect a complete amalgamation of those Departments, giving, of course, due consideration to existing interests. It was, however, a great mistake to suppose that

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such a duty could be effectually performed in a short time. The task was, in fact, a most arduous one, and, he believed it would test all the administrative ability even of so experienced a man as Sir Henry Storks. At any rate he felt confident it was an undertaking which could not be carried to a satisfactory issue if the officer charged with it in the first instance were merely empowered to lay down general regulations for the guidance of the Departments and to frame the rules which were afterwards to be followed. It was also necessary that he should see those rules carried into effect, and that he should not relinquish his post until the new Department was in a position to run alone—if he might use the expression. Such being his opinion he not unnaturally referred to the Papers in order to ascertain what was the precise position in which the Controller-in-Chief had been placed, but he confessed there was much obscurity on that point. He was unable to make out, for instance, whether Sir Henry Storks had been appointed Controller-in-Chief with the intention that he should hold the office as long as his doing so might be for the benefit of the public service, and as long as it might be necessary for him to hold it in order thoroughly to carry out the work on which he was, engaged; or whether it were merely intended that he should hold it only a short time for the purpose of laying down general regulations under which the contemplated reforms were to be accomplished. Sir Henry Storks had been appointed Controller-in-Chief, with a salary of £2,000 a year, and with a position equal in all respects to that of a permanent Under Secretary of State. This was clear from the commencement of the Correspondence; and yet Sir Henry's position was described in the last letter from the Treasury as a provisional arrangement entered into with a view to his framing regulations, carrying out the impending changes in the War Office, and bringing the establishments into working order. For his own part, he should not have contemplated that the Controller-in-Chief would, as a rule, be in the position of an Under Secretary of State, nor was it as a rule necessary that he should be so. But when he saw Sir Henry Storks placed in that position he concluded that that step had been taken because the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the War Department felt it was only right that so dis-
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tinguished an officer should, while he held the post of Controller, have the official rank and status of an Under Secretary. He should deeply regret if, for the sake of saving £500 a year by reducing the salary from £2,000 to £1,500, any risk should be run of losing the advantage of Sir Henry Storks' services as the head of the Control Department, even for a single day, before he had completed the work which he had undertaken to perform. He trusted the noble Earl (the Earl of Longford) would give a distinct explanation as to the real position which Sir Henry Storks now occupied. This letter from the Treasury went on to state what were the relative positions of the Department of Control and the other Departments of the War Office, particularly the Finance Department. The Treasury appeared to apprehend that there would be a collision between those two Departments; but he confessed he did not share in that apprehension. It seemed to be intended that the Account or Finance Department should freely lay before the Secretary of State their comments on the proposals of all the other Departments, as far as expenditure or financial affairs were concerned. He quite concurred in the propriety of such an intention, and he should even hesitate to place and narrow interpretation on the phrase "financial affairs." Whenever an increase of expenditure, either actual or perspective, was involved, it ought to be the duty of the Finance Department to state their views on the subject to the Secretary of State for his consideration. On that point, therefore, he had no issue to raise. He should, however, like to know the precise interpretation which the noble Earl placed upon that sentence in the letter which related to the compilation of the Estimates. It was laid down that it should be the duty of the Financial Department to compile the Estimates for all army expenditure. Now, the Estimates went through various stages in the course of their preparation. In the first instance, they were prepared by the branches intrusted with the administration of the various Departments, and then sent to the Finance Department, where they were brought together and checked one with another, and also considered in their general financial bearings. He hoped it was not now intended to take the first preparation of the Estimates from the various administrative branches; and further he hoped the noble Earl would be able to show that the re-

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sponsibility for the Estimates and for every one of their details would still rest on the Secretary of State alone. The Account or Finance branch was a Department of the War Office precisely like the other branches. It was responsible to the Secretary of State, and to him alone; it took its orders from him, and from him alone. He did not wish to under-rate the importance of the duties of the Account or Finance Department; he believed they were of the utmost importance. He only desired to make it clear that its duties were entirely conducted under the authority of the Secretary of State, and under a responsibility to him and to him alone. So far was he from being disposed to undervalue the importance of that Department, that it had more than once crossed his mind whether advantage would not be derived from placing the chief superintendence of financial business in the War Office—of course under the Secretary of State—in the hands of a Parliamentary officer somewhat analogous to a Civil Lord of the Admiralty. He did not give that as a positive opinion, but wished merely to show that in holding that that Department was not outside of the War Office, but was one under the Secretary of State, his remarks did not proceed from any desire to depreciate that Department, but from a desire that all those Departments should be kept in due subordination, so that the authority and the responsibility of the Secretary of State should not be weakened or over-shadowed. He looked upon it that the real and important duty which Sir Henry Storks, or whoever might be the Controller-in-Chief, had to perform was to re-organize upon a thoroughly efficient basis the civil Departments of the army outside the War Office. They should, as far as possible, assimilate their arrangement so that their army should be managed at home in the same manner as it was managed abroad, and and also, that as far as practicable—of course, with the necessary differences—it should be administered in time of peace in the same manner as in time of war. It was obvious that that was the only means by which they could really get the administrative branches of the army into a proper state for the outbreak of hostilities; and that the more closely they could assimilate their Departments in time of peace to the system requisite for a time of war the more they would be prepared for war. And it was because he knew the unsatisfactory condition of those Depart-
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ments at present, and because he felt that a grave and serious responsibility would rest on any Government that delayed the re-organization of those Departments on such a basis, that he trusted he should hear that evening that the Secretary of State was fully alive to the importance of the subject, and also that Sir Henry Storks was now about to set himself to work in carrying on outside the War Office that re-organization of the civil Departments of the army which he believed to be one of the most important reforms of our military system.
THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, that this was a subject which had on various previous occasions occupied the attention of Parliament. In 1859 or 1860 the House of Commons appointed the Committee on Army Organization; and in. 1861 the late Lord Herbert of Lea took up the question and proposed to the Treasury a reform somewhat of the nature of that now under consideration. The course of events in the five following years was not favourable to the consideration of the proposed changes, and nothing was done until 1865, when the project was revived. The year 1866 and a great part of 1867 was occupied by the most valuable Inquiry of Lord Strathnairn's Committee, whose valuable Report was presented in the summer of 1867. At the end of the same year Sir John Pakington proposed to the Treasury the appointment of Sir Henry Storks as Chief Controller, for the purpose of carrying into effect the contemplated reforms. The appointment was concurred in by the Treasury, and Sir Henry Storks at once assumed his office to prepare for the execution of the scheme of re-organization of which he was to have the direction. In the following March his proposals were submitted to the Treasury, who in April asked for further information, which was immediately afforded them. Then followed some correspondence respecting the Royal Warrant for the constitution of the new Department, and on the 28th April the Royal Warrant was issued. On the 29th of June the Treasury wrote expressing their views as to the arrangements then contemplated, and suggesting various modifications in those arrangements; and a day or two later Sir John Pakington substantially accepted the modified terms proposed by the Treasury; and now there remained several points to be considered. That was the position in which the matter at present stood; and

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he hoped that in a very few days they would commence to bring the new arrangements into gradual operation. It was true that the discussions between the various Departments of the army hitherto had been rather complicated; that their harmonious action had been somewhat overlooked in their original constitutions; and that they were not so designed as to work together well on the occasion of a great strain. That, however, would now be remedied, and the Chief Controller would be the sole authority at the War Office to govern Departments and Staffs which had hitherto been under four or five different heads. The illustrious Duke (the Commander-in-Chief), on a former occasion when that subject was mentioned, appeared to fear that the Chief Controller would have too much power, and that it would be difficult to control that officer himself; but he (the Earl of Longford) trusted the illustrious Duke would find that any objection on that ground had been obviated. One of the causes which had tended rather more than another to delay the preparation of the scheme was a little over-anxiety on the part of the Treasury to secure to themselves sufficient financial control against the presumed tendency of the Secretary of State towards extravagance. But on that point the Treasury and the Secretary of State had, he thought, now come to an understanding, and he trusted that there was now no risk of collision between the two Departments. The scheme was now so far organized that its gradual adoption would be immediately proceeded with. Rather an exaggerated importance out-of-doors had been given to that reform, which was a re-distribution that would, he trusted, effect certain improvements in the Departments; but the new Controller would not not be a magician, who by a wave of his wand could prevent the possibility of future delay or disappointments. He hoped the public service would gain greatly by the adoption of the scheme; but the measure should be taken for what it was—an important interior re-arrangement, and not a panacea against all future shortcomings. There would still be some red-tape and a considerable amount of correspondence connected with the Administration, and there would also still be prejudiced persons ready to circulate and to listen to any story against the War Office. Nevertheless, he hoped the scheme would result in great advantage to the country.
THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: The subject of the noble Earl's (Earl De Grey's) Question is one of such vast importance to the service that I feel bound to express my great satisfaction that it has been brought before your Lordships' House; because certainly since this Treasury Minute has been published and circulated there has been such a variety of opinion as to the meaning of that Minute that it is extremely difficult for an outsider to understand what its effect is. I trust we shall get that information tonight—although I do not think we have yet obtained all we could wish. It is one of the most singular documents I ever read. Its intention appears to tide over any difficulties and make everything smooth and easy; but I cannot help thinking that it puts the War Office in an undesirable position. I do not see how two bodies can be placed on an equal footing and yet both hare the opportunity of referring to the Secretary of State, without there being continual collision between them, and without the Secretary of State being kept in a state of perpetual hot water between the two. I understand that this is not the intention, but that what has hitherto been the practice shall continue to be followed. I most sincerely hope that this will be so; for one of the most essential points in our military organization is to bring matters into some sort of ship-shape in the War Office. We are perpetually told that our military organization is so defective that it will break down on the first emergency. No doubt a great deal is wanted, and I cannot help feeling that on all sides, and without reference to one side of the House or the other, that the modifications required for the War Office are so important that they cannot be delayed a single day longer. I understood that my gallant Friend Sir Henry Storks was wisely, prudently, and judiciously selected by the Secretary of State for War to be Controller-in-Chief, and I presume that it was on account of the high position which he would fill that it was thought inconvenient and improper to offer him this post without at the same time giving him the rank and position of an Under Secretary of State. It might have been expected that after Sir Henry Storks had been selected for this post he would have been placed in a position to deal with the duties of the office. But what has been done? I Immediately Sir Henry Storks wished to

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take his place and perform the functions of his office, difficulties arose. It was discovered that the office of Controller was of so important a character that he ought to he controlled. Objections were raised from a variety of quarters, which produced this extraordinary Treasury Letter, and which for the future considerably modifies the position of Sir Henry Storks. I hope that whatever may be hereafter the decision with regard to Sir Henry Storks one thing will be clearly understood, and I shall be glad of some assurance from my noble Friend after I have sat down that he will be left in the position for which he has been selected until he has not only been able to carry out the reforms recommended by himself, but until he has seen that the whole system works efficiently and well. It is not enough that he should always be there to indicate what ought to be done, but he ought to be continued in that position, irrespective of whatever other arrangements may be made, until he has seen the working of the new system and satisfied himself that it would produce good results. He ought also to satisfy the Secretary of State that matters were in such a state that his successor would follow in his footsteps and carry out the duties of the office so that they would work smoothly and well. If that is to be the effect of the Letter, and if my noble Friend will give me an assurance that this is the feeling of the War Office, the effect which this Treasury Minute has produced upon me will be greatly relieved. There is another observation I wish to make on this remarkable document, and on which I feel very strongly. It contains a most singular paragraph, in which, among other recommendations, it is stated that there should be an additional Under Secretary appointed to assist the Secretary of State on military matters, who shall generally, if not always, be a military man. I apprehend that the meaning of that is that this official shall give military advice to the Secretary of State on points connected with the working of the office. If that is the intention my mind is greatly relieved, for I regard this as a wise and prudent arrangement. But it appears to me that the effect of the Minute is to make this officer supersede all other military advisers, including the Commander-in-Chief, who has hitherto been considered the military adviser of the Secretary of State, whatever political party he might
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be connected with. Providing that this arrangement does not place the Commander-in-Chief in an inferior position to that of the Under Secretary—who need not be a military man at all—and provided also that military advice is to be given by the Commander-in-Chief, and that the advice given by the Under Secretary shall be confined to points connected with the office, I shall be quite satisfied; but I should like to have some assurance on that subject from my noble Friend. I am delighted to hear from the noble Earl (Earl De Grey) that the responsible financial officer of the War Office is the Secretary of State for War. There can be no other authority. He may take any officer of his Department to advise him on special or confidential matters, to whom he may refer those matters which are essential for the proper working of the office; but I contend that what is called the compilation of the Estimates, though made by the various Departments, should be made under the direct authority of the Secretary of State, who should be controlled exclusively by the Treasury. I am delighted to hear that there is not to be a smaller Treasury in the War Office. The Treasurer of the War Office is the Secretary of State for War, and the only controlling power of the Secretary of State is the Treasury itself. Another point of importance is the preparation of the Estimates in the various Departments. The Estimates to be of any value in a large office like the War Office can only be prepared by the heads of the several Departments. They should then be corrected and adopted by the Secretary of State. But if the Secretary of State in his individual capacity, or the Government as a body, should, after the preparation of the Estimates make a considerable reduction in them, I contend that it is the province of the various heads to propose their own reductions in those Departments, and that it should not be left in the hands of a financial officer who may know nothing of the individuality of the Departments, and who has only to deal with the results. It is true that after the question has been considered by the Departments the whole question must go back to the financial officer, who will report to the Secretary of State; but that is a very different thing from having a financial officer to decide upon his own ipse dixit, and to say what ought to be the reduction in the various items. Upon that point there seems to be a want of clearness

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in what fell from the noble Earl who spoke last (the Earl of Longford), and I hope that he will be able to give us some further explanation on this point. I hope there will be no delay in going on with such reforms as are contemplated, for your Lordships may rest assured that the uncertainty that hangs over offices when changes are intended to be made is extremely inconvenient and mischievous both inside and outside the office. It is essential it should be clearly understood that when ever changes are thought desirable and are determined upon they should be at once commenced; although they should be carried out no doubt with the greatest forbearance and consideration for those concerned, but yet with as little delay in carrying out a great measure of reform as possible. There is no point of military interest on which the country has expressed an opinion more strongly than the desirability of some regular system which should avoid confusion and tend to confirm the wise and prudent arrangements which have been made from time to time by the various military Departments. I hope that the result of to-night's conversation will be to satisfy Sir Henry Storks that no intention is implied in this Minute of removing him from the important post for which he is so well fitted, and the duties of which I feel sure he will discharge to the satisfaction of the country, and to the great simplification of the general arrangements of the War Office.
LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, that no one could have held office, as he had done, in the War Department without feeling the necessity of extensive but judicious changes. The explanation of the noble Earl (the Earl of Longford) must have greatly increased the apprehensions of his noble Friend (Earl de Grey); for though the noble Earl deprecated the importance attributed to the matter, and represented the re-organization of the Department as a very ordinary proceeding, the correspondence on the subject was of a very extraordinary character. In December, 1867, the War Office applied to the Treasury for the appointment of a Controller-in-Chief, with a position equivalent to that of Under Secretary of State, and with a salary of £2,000 a year; but in the following June the Treasury proposed the appointment of a Controller without the rank of Under Secretary, and at a salary of £1,500, and likewise of a principal Financial Officer with a salary of £1,500, and with a deputy,
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The latter appointment had not been asked for; but the very next day the War Office accepted the proposal of the Treasury with the exception of some details. Discussions must evidently have occurred between December and June, but no light had been thrown on them—though the remarks of the noble Earl seemed to imply that the Treasury objected to the original scheme because they wished to secure efficient financial control. The Treasury, indeed, had of late years shown a disposition, as well in the case of the Admiralty as of the War Office, to set up little Treasuries in the various Departments, so as to hold communications with subordinate officers in them without the intervention of the heads. The question was whether the principal Financial Officer and his deputy were to be the officers of the Treasury or of the War Office—for this was the gist of the whole question. If the intention was that every proposal connected with expenditure should go from the Controller-in-Chief to the new Financial Officer, how was the business of the former to be carried on? It must not be supposed that this would be a mere form, for the fault of the War Department was that it was given to endless correspondence and delay, and he could conceive no proposal more calculated to increase the evils already existing. Moreover, to take off the responsibility from the shoulders of the officer of practical knowledge and transfer it to an officer not having such knowledge was likely to encourage the former to be reckless in his recommendations as to expenditure, since, whether they were accepted or rejected, the responsibility would not rest with him. As to the preparation of the Estimates, the Secretary of State, as the illustrious Duke had remarked, was the person responsible, and unless he was brought in contact with the officer of practical knowledge there was little chance of efficiency or economy. The noble Earl (the Earl of Longford) had not given a full explanation on this point. As a civilian he must protest against that portion of the scheme which implied that no military man was fit to be the Financial Officer, for he had found military men quite as anxious for economy as civilians, and men, moreover, who from their professional knowledge were much more fitted than civilians to offer excellent suggestions with a view to economy. Indeed, at the time the Treasury put forward their scheme the office of permanent Under Secretary was

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held by a civilian. When, too, the gigantic expenditure attendant upon the Indian mutiny was brought down to something like a peace expenditure, it was military men who did it, General Balfour being one of the most distinguished. He hoped, therefore, that so unwise a rule would not be laid down. He should like some further explanation as to the position of Sir Henry Storks—whether he was to remain Controller-in-Chief with the salary and position originally proposed, or with the less responsible position suggested by the Treasury. In conclusion, he begged to say that this matter was one of very great national importance, and if Her Majesty's Government had been induced to give way to the Treasury, he hoped they would retire as quickly as possible by a change of position from the place which they now occupied, and he had no doubt the country would support them.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD, in explanation, said that there was no intention of interfering with the functions of the illustrious Duke or the Horse Guards as they were at present exercised. It was the most earnest wish of the Department that Sir Henry Storks should continue to hold the position of Controller-in-Chief. The illustrious Duke had spoken of the Estimates. It had been his intention to explain that the Estimates would be framed very much as at present, and would be submitted to the Secretary of State for War. The Financial Secretary of the Treasury would be consulted, but not exclusively. The illustrious Duke was also anxious that no time should be lost in proceeding with the arrangements, which were entirely in accordance with the wish of the War Office. But the delay had been very much occasioned by another matter, to which the illustrious Duke had referred—namely, the necessity of consulting the vested interests of the numerous officers employed in the different Departments. He quite concurred with what had fallen from the noble Lord (Lord Northbrook), that it was not impossible that military men might be found quite competent to conduct, as financiers, the military finances of the accounts of the War Office.
LORD STRATHNAIRNsaid, that the real question now before the House was, he ventured to think, whether the recommendations of the Committee over which he had presided should be carried out or not. In order to carry those recommenda-
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tions into effect the Secretary of State for War had adopted two very important measures—he had selected an officer of acknowledged ability and tried experience to preside over the organization of the new system, and he had given that officer the high appointment of Under Secretary of State with a proportionate salary. Unfortunately, however, the Letter of the Treasury bearing date the 29th of June—the last, he believed, of the Correspondence which had been laid before the House—had nullified the advantages of that appointment of Sir Henry Storks as Under-Secretary, and was opposed to the tenour and spirit of the most important recommendations of the Committee over which he had presided. It was evident that an officer in Sir Henry Storks' position required all the assistance he could get in carrying out a difficult task. It was equally evident that the announcement in the Treasury Letter of the date which he mentioned must have very materially interfered with that influence which was so necessary for Sir Henry Storks' success. There was another point in the Treasury Letter to which he wished to refer, and that was, the association of an Officer of Finance with the Controller-in-Chief on equal terms. In other words, the Treasury proposed to associate two officers with wholly different objects, and, he must say from past experience, he feared antagonistic views. Speaking briefly, the Chief Controller might be said to represent expenditure, while the Financial Officer represented economy. There would therefore be a perpetual jarring between the two Departments. That association of incoherent elements was entirely opposed to the most essential recommendations of the Committee, which were that the administrative or civil Departments of the army, now disconnected, should be brought into unity of action with the regimental Departments, under one authority, one head; the Controller-in-Chief representing the authority and duties of the Secretary for War and those of the Commander-in-Chief. He thought the House was largely indebted to his noble Friend on the opposite Benches (Earl De Grey) for the zeal and ability with which he had a second time brought this question before the House. He entirely agreed with the illustrious Duke as to the vital importance of this matter. Their Lordships might be surprised to hear that one of the great difficulties which Sir Robert Napier had

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lately to encounter was a total disorganization of the transport for the Abyssinian campaign. That disorganization of the transport system at Bombay had been the cause of the delay of the operations for one month. It was really no easy matter to describe all the difficulties that had occurred. Hundreds—he might say almost thousands—of mules were landed on the seashore, and there was no one to take care of them. They ate up fifteen fathoms of rope to which they were attached, they were badly tethered, and the whole arrangements were so bad that the officer in command was obliged to name an officer from the 3rd Dragoon Guards in order to have the commonest attention paid to the animals in the general pursuit of them along the coast. He could only join, therefore, in the wish expressed by the illustrious Duke that no time might be lost in giving full effect to the recommendations of the Committee. In associating the Controller-in-Chief with the principal Financial Officer the Treasury had lost sight of a condition to which the Committee attached the greatest importance, and which they constantly and earnestly advocated as a guarantee of the success of the organization—that was, that the Secretary of State for War should undertake no army measure without the concurrence, if possible, or at any rate the knowledge and advice, of the Commander-in-Chief. Now he would be very sorry that it should be supposed that he was a partizan. So little was he affected by partizanship that when Her Majesty's Government established the office of Secretary of State for War—under the influence, certainly, of a loudly expressed public opinion—he (Lord Strathnairn) at once stated that every military authority in this country—even the Commander-in-Chief himself—must be under the influence of the superior authority vested in the new Secretary of State for War. But, while he said that, he must also say that there was no view which presented itself so frequently and in such different forms to his mind as this—that the greatest harm would be done to the military service by the non-recognition of this great principle—that the Secretary of State for War, while the supreme military authority, should undertake no military measure without the knowledge and advice, and, if possible, the concurrence of the Commander-in-Chief.
House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Eleven o'clock.