Sitting of 31 May 1867

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—On Tancred's Charities nominated; on Malt Tax nominated; on Sea Coast Fisheries (Ireland) nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS—Resolution in Committee—Metropolitan Police [Salary of Receiver].
Resolutions reported—Railways [Cancellation of Bonds]; Houses of Parliament [Expense of Approaches].
Second Reading — Attorneys, &c., Certificate Duty* [53].
Committee — Representation of the People [79] [Clause 9] [R.P.]; Railway Companies (re-comm.)* [164] [Clause 35].
Report — Limerick Harbour (Composition of Debt)* [176]; Valuation of Property * [177].
The House met at Two of the clock.

METROPOLIS—THE PUBLIC PARKS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. EWARTsaid, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether his attention has been called to the desirableness of having a greater number of seats placed round the trees (especially the larger trees) in Kensington Gardens and the Parks?
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, in reply, that considering the subject which had brought them together that day, the hon. Member's Question about seats was an appropriate one. He concurred with the hon. Gentleman in thinking it desirable that there should be additional seats in the Parks; and he hoped that the hon. Gentleman would concur with him on the more serious question of scats in Parliament.

THE EXHIBITION OF 1851.—QUESTION.
MR. DILLWYNsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it be true, as stated in a letter signed "A" in The Times newspaper of the 28th instant, that the Commissioners of the Great Exhibition of 1851 present annually to the Home Office a Report of their Finances; and, if so, whether he will lay all such Reports on the table of the House?
MR. GATHORNE HARDYreplied, that it was quite true the Commissioners did make an Annual Report. He should not like to undertake to lay it on the table of the House without first communicating with the Commissioners.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL— [BILL 79.]
(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secretary Walpole, Lord Stanley)
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL— [BILL 79.]

  COMMITTEE. [PROGRESS MAY 30.]
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 9 (Certain Boroughs to return One Member only).
  MR. LAINGmoved, in line 27, to leave out all after "Parliament," and insert—
  "No borough which had a less population than 10,000 at the Census of 1861 shall return more than one Member to serve in Parliament."
  He said, the Amendment was one which included a complete scheme of representation. In order to make it clear it would be necessary to advert to subsequent Amendments, but he should confine his main arguments and reasons to the Amendment before the Committee. As to the importance of the subject of the re-distribution of seats, it would be unnecessary, after what had taken place in the House last year, to trouble the Committee with many observations. The feeling was unanimous that that portion of the Bill was not less difficult or important than the other. With a view to any permanent settlement of the question it was quite as important that the re-distribution of seats should be satisfactory to the common sense of the people as that they should arrive at a satisfactory solution of the question of the franchise. For all practical purposes, with reference to the balance of political power in the House, the re-distribution of seats was even of more importance than the franchise. It was quite conceivable that under the reduction that had been effected in the franchise they might have a system of re-distribution that would either be revolutionary or essentially Conservative. He thought, with a view to what they all desired—a solution of the question of Reform—that the scheme should be Conservative. If so, it would be likely to be permanent. It would be likely to be permanent also, if it were large and liberal enough to satisfy the wants of the age. The scheme as it was proposed in the Bill of the Government did not go far enough to afford a reasonable hope of its being a permanent solution of the question. He did not wish to imply censure on the Government for having proposed this scheme, inasmuch as their course had of necessity throughout these proceedings on Reform been in a great measure tentative. It was impossible for them to propose in the first instance the entire scheme as it might be subsequently moulded into shape by the House. He was sensible of the difficulties they had to encounter in facing an adverse majority, and from their own party. He was not therefore disposed to censure the Government. Whether they took the scheme by itself, or in comparison with

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  others proposed, it was inadequate to meet the exigencies of the case. Taking it by itself, it proposed no further disfranchisement than the taking of a second Member from each borough with a population of less than 7,000. This was a principle addressed to many of the most glaring anomalies that struck the public mind, and which constituted a reason for taking up the question of re-distribution. Among the anomalies that at once struck everybody were those which arose from extreme difference of population. It was impossible not to feel that while our system of representation was not to be based entirely on mere arithmetical computations, it ought, approximately at least, to represent the population, the property, and the intelligence of the country. A system under which a small insignificant borough with a population of 4,000 inhabitants had as large a share of representation as important and populous cities like Manchester and Liverpool was an anomaly which, if they were going to touch the representative system at all, ought to be corrected. There was also a great anomaly in the geographical distribution of the representation. This dated back to a period when the South and West of England were the principal seats of population and industry, and the North was comparatively uncivilized and unpeopled. The consequence was that certain counties in the South of England, like Wiltshire and Dorsetshire, returned a disproportionate share of the representation of the country. If they took Wilts and Dorset as instances, those counties had one representative for every 13,000 inhabitants. In Lancashire the representation was only one for every 100,000. In the great counties of York and Durham—those growing seats of manufacturing and mining industry — there was also a striking disproportion. Another glaring anomaly in our representative system was that which apportioned such, a large proportion of representation to boroughs as compared with the counties. The Return given last year showed that the counties with a population—exclusive of represented towns—of over 11,000,000 as against a borough population of between 8,000,000 and 9,000,000, returned less than one-half the number of Members. This was a great anomaly. In the present state of things, when they looked at the facilities for communication, a county could no longer be fairly represented by torpid and dormant communities
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  in which the action of political life did not take place. While there were many villages growing into towns, and towns growing into cities, remaining in the county representation, and while the House was enlarging the county constituency in a liberal manner, there was no longer a defensible reason why this great disproportion should exist. In any scheme dealing with the re-distribution of seals, they should keep in view the correction of the more glaring anomalies existing in this respect. Here the Government scheme had not gone far enough. The Committee would agree with him when he gave a single instance of the sort of anomaly which was left by that scheme. The borough of Cockermouth was the borough having two Members with the smallest population, untouched by the Bill of the present Session, but included in the Bill of last year. In the Census of 1861 it had a population of 7,075. But according to the estimate of 1866 the population had fallen to 6,950, the total number of inhabited houses being 1,543. By the Bill of last year it was proposed to take away one Member. It was proposed by the present scheme to leave that borough with the share of representation it had hitherto possessed—namely, two Members, nearly a three-hundredth part of the entire voice of the representation of the country—the same share as Liverpool with a population of 440,000 and 65,784 inhabited houses. In 1854, when a Bill was brought forward by Lord John Russell, as a member of Lord Aberdeen's Cabinet, it was proposed to disfranchise all the small boroughs having less than 5,000 inhabitants, and to take away the second Member from all boroughs with less than 10,000 inhabitants. The effect of that proposal would have been to take away sixty-two Members from the small boroughs, and to give them partly to the large cities and towns and partly to the counties. The Bill of last year proposed to take away forty-nine Members from the small boroughs and to divide them among the large cities and the counties. The present Bill proposed that twenty-three boroughs should return one Member instead of two. Seven Members were to be taken from the boroughs disfranchised by the vote of last night. The total number of seats to be re-distributed would consequently be thirty, but that was a much smaller proposal than was made by the Bills of 1854 and 1866. Although the question of re-distribution of seats was warmly dis-

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  cussed last Session, no objection was made to the scheme being too extensive. On the contrary, it was urged by hon. Members on the Conservative side that instead of drawing the line at boroughs with 8,000 inhabitants, from which it was then proposed to take one of two Members, the line should have been fixed at 10,000. Attention was drawn to the fact that the boroughs between 8,000 and 10,000 happened, by a curious coincidence, to send a preponderance of Members to the Liberal Benches. It was said that the scheme was a political job, and that it ought to have been carried up to 10,000, because it was stated that the boroughs with populations between 8,000 and 10,000 sent a great preponderance of Members to that side of the House. At all events, no objection was taken to the 8,000 line on the ground of insufficiency. He would now state the scheme he had embodied in clauses, and which he intended to submit as an alternative proposition. His first proposal was that all boroughs with a population of less than 10,000 at the last census now returning two Members should in future only return one. There were thirty-eight boroughs in this condition. The proposal would consequently give thirty-eight Members. Adding to this the Members of the boroughs disfranchised last night, the number would be forty-five. He further proposed to introduce the principle of grouping some of the small boroughs to a limited extent, and by this means he got seven Members, making, when added to the forty-five, a total of fifty-two seats to be re-distributed. In his application of these seats he assumed with the Government that the demand of Scotland for an addition to its representation was founded injustice, and that it was to be met, not by taking Members from England or Ireland, but by making a small addition to the number of Members of the House. There was no magic in the precise number of 658. The House was far past the point where its number of Members was such that they could all be seated and listen to the debates. This being so, a few Members more or less would make no difference. They had not reached the point where the number of Members was too great for the work that had to be done. The mode in which he proposed to distribute the fifty-two Members gained in the way he had described was as follows:—He proposed to give to large cities having a population of
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  more than 150,000 at the last census three Members. There were six cities in this condition. To large towns with a population of more than 50,000, now returning one Member, he proposed to give a second Member. Of these there were four. With regard to new boroughs he proposed to adopt the twelve proposed by the Government, grouping one of them—Torquay—with a borough adjoining. He also proposed to add two Members to the Tower Hamlets, which would give a total of twenty-four new scats to cities and boroughs—one for the University of London, made twenty-five. In order to apply the same principle to counties he proposed to give three Members to each county or division with a population exceeding 150,000. This would require twenty-six seats. Thus twenty-five seats would be given to the boroughs and the London University, and twenty-six to the counties, making a total of fifty-one. But the number of seats he had provided for was fifty-two, there being a small margin he was obliged to leave. Until the decision of the House last night he could not be certain as to what would be done with the corrupt boroughs. He wished now to explain to the Committee the principles of the plan he proposed. He thought it important that the question of Reform should be based on sound principles. The House had done so in the matter of the franchise. At the cost of considerable sacrifice of feeling on the part of hon. Members—though there was now a general concurrence of opinion that it was the right thing to be done—it had thought fit to go down till it came to something upon which it might stand because capable of being explained and defended. In the re-distribution of seats it was not possible to arrive at any absolute principle like household suffrage, defended by rating. They must draw their lines arbitrarily, but still they ought not to draw them at haphazard. There ought to be something in them that should commend itself to the common sense of the community so far that it could be appealed to as a stand-point for the resistance of further agitation. He had drawn a line at a population of 10,000, below which no borough should be entitled to return more than one Member. He had done so for two reasons. 10,000 in population was to the common understanding about as good a line as could be drawn, indicating where a small town ends and a fair sized town begins. The town popula-

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  tions of this country had increased so rapidly of late years that what used to be thought a considerable town was now-deemed a small one. It might fairly be said that any place with a population below 10,000 was a small town. This limitation was also supported by precedent. It was the line proposed by Earl Russell in 1854, in a measure which, the more he examined, the more he thought it had been maturely considered. From the discussions in the House, the line appeared to have met with general approval. No one objected to 8,000 as being too high, and many hon. Members objected to it as being too low, and said that the line ought to have been drawn at 10,000. He took the line of 150,000 as indicating where the more important cities begin. The towns: at and above that line were centres of national industry and life, and were entitled to a larger share in the representation than towns ranging from 10,000 to 50,000. Those largest towns were Birmingham, Preston, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Glasgow, Dublin, and Edinburgh. The other line he had taken was 50,000, at which population it might be considered that large and important towns began. When so many towns between: 10,000 and 20,000 returned two Members, large towns containing 50,000 ought not: to be restricted to a single Member. Of places above 50,000 that he proposed should have a second Member there were four—Salford, Merthyr Tydvil, Swansea, and Birkenhead. In Scotland, Dundee and Aberdeen. These were the only towns in the United Kingdom with a population exceeding 50,000 that were restricted to a single Member, and their claims must be considered when they were disfranchising small boroughs and disposing of a large number of scats. Another principle was the maintenance of the balance between towns and counties. It was an anomaly, not to be defended in the present state of the country, that the county population should be so inadequately represented. Absolute equality could not be arrived at. The counties could not be split up into so many divisions and assigned as many Members as the boroughs. But some such rule as was applied to boroughs might be applied to divisions of counties. There was the more reason for applying it, because under the old system small boroughs often returned country gentlemen, who were, in fact, county representatives, and therefore the
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  disfranchisement of small boroughs virtually diminished the county representation. Whatever arguments in favour of retaining small boroughs might have been in place in 1832, they were completely out of place now, when small boroughs were being disfranchised and household suffrage introduced. The Report of the Totnes Commission afforded little hope that for the future local influence would obtain for rising, little known, and unappreciated talent an entrance into this House. It was the more important to lay down a principle of meting out equal justice to counties as compared with boroughs, because in the future the counties must be looked to for the Conservative element, for the ballast to steady the additional canvass hoisted in the new franchise clauses. The Bill of last year proposed to give twenty-six Members to divisions of counties, and in following it he was only acting on sound Conservative principle. To sum up shortly the practical difference between his plan and that of the Government, if his plan were carried out the following boroughs would lose, which in the Government plan retained, a second Member:—Six boroughs between 7,000 and 8,000—namely, Bridgnorth, Bridport, Buckingham, Chippenham, Cockermouth, and Newport, Isle of Wight. Nine boroughs between 8,000 and 10,000, which were neither in the Bill of the present Government nor in that of last year—namely, Chichester, Guildford, Lewes, Malton, Poole, Stamford, Tavistock, Windsor, and Wycombe. These made together fifteen boroughs, with an aggregate population of 123,000, which would lose one Member each. In addition to that, he proposed that eight small boroughs, now returning one Member only, should be grouped. They were Arundel, Ashburton, Calne, Dartmouth, Eye, Lyme Regis, Launceston, and Northallerton. These had an aggregate population of 35,000, or an average of over 4,000 each. He proposed to give the extra Members thus acquired to Birmingham, Bristol, Leeds. Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Salford, Merthyr Tydvil, Swansea, and Birkenhead. These boroughs comprised an aggregate population of 1,831,147. He should also give additional Members to counties or divisions of counties which were not provided for in the Bill of the Government, as follows:—Counties and divisions of counties with a population of 150,000 (exclusive of places represented and to be represented) to return three Members;

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  Chester, Northern Division; Chester, Southern Division; Cornwall, Western Division; Derby, Northern Division; Devon, Northern Division; Devon, Southern Division; Durham, Northern Division; Essex, Northern Division; Essex, Southern Division; Kent, Eastern Division; Kent, Western Division; Lancaster, Northern Division; Lancaster, South-Western Division; Lancaster, South-Eastern Division; Lincoln, Parts of Lindsey; Middlesex; Norfolk, Western Division; Somerset, Eastern Division; Somerset, Western Division; Stafford, Northern Division; Stafford, Southern Division; Surrey, Eastern Division; York, North Riding; York, West Riding Northern Division; York, West Riding, Southern Division. Comparing this scheme with that of the Government, the aggregate population of the counties omitted in the Government scheme and included in his was 3,850,000. The summary of his proposal was that it transferred twenty more seats than was proposed by the Government Bill from small boroughs with an average population of under 7,000 inhabitants and an aggregate population of 158,000. It gave Members to eight large towns with an aggregate population of 1,830,000 and an average of 240,000 inhabitants, and to eighteen counties or divisions with an aggregate population of 3,800,000 and an average of 210,000. One material difference in his Bill, compared with the Bill of last year, was that he took one Member each from nine boroughs containing between 8,000 and 9,000 inhabitants which were not in the Bill of 1866. Again, the scheme of last year was based mainly upon the principle of grouping. It proposed to create sixteen groups, including forty-one boroughs. Of the forty-nine seats obtained for the purpose of re-distribution, forty-one were gained by grouping. In his plan, however, grouping was a subordinate feature. He proposed to establish only seven groups, including fifteen boroughs, and gaining in this way only seven seats. His object was to submit something practical, as private Members were bound to do, which should have a chance of being adopted by the House. It was exceedingly difficult to apply the principle of grouping to a large extent without incurring well-founded objections of partial and unjust treatment. Impressed by this conviction he did not wish to make the system of grouping a prominent feature; but, speaking from his
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  experience in Scotland, he believed the principle to be a sound one. In the grouped boroughs, both in Scotland and in Wales, there were fewer contests, there was less corruption, there was less turbulence and intimidation, and the elections were less expensive than in the grouped boroughs. He had once stood a severe contest, extending over several months, for a group of six burghs, and the total cost to him was something less than £600. Contests for small boroughs often sprang from local jealousies. In a small town, which had two rival newspapers, two rival attorneys, and two rival hotels, local jealousies were almost inevitable. But where you had an extensive group of boroughs, if a local clique attempted to dictate, the rest of the group grew jealous of it, and were disposed to set it aside. There was thus less chance of getting up an opposition against the sitting Member, except, of course, on public grounds. Again, he preferred grouping as being a milder process, and more Conservative, than that of absolute disfranchisement, which he thought would be found to be the only alternative in the case of the very small boroughs. Lastly, he had no other way of obtaining a sufficient number of seats for re-distribution, and though well aware that the principle had not met with much favour from the House, he had had recourse to it, though only to the moderate extent he had mentioned. In forming his groups he had kept three principles in view — the smallness of the boroughs, their contiguity, and the over-representation of the district in which they were situated. A very small portion of his scheme depended upon grouping. It would be open to the Committee to discard the principle altogether if they thought proper, or to alter its details and carry it still further. With regard to the application of seats to be obtained by disfranchisement, that was entirely an open question. He would state shortly why it was that he proposed to give three Members to large constituencies either in cities or boroughs. In making that proposal, he had been guided by the plan proposed by Lord Russell in 1854, that where constituencies had the privilege of returning three Members a mode of voting should be adopted which would secure a fair representation to an influential minority. All the arguments which could be urged in 1854 would tell with redoubled force now that the constituencies would be so much enlarged, and that something like house-

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  hold suffrage would be established. But if it should be the pleasure of the House not to adopt that system there was yet another which might be adopted, one that had been proposed on the high authority of the late Mr. Cobden. Mr. Cobden's plan was that the large cities — and he presumed the case would be similar with respect to large counties—should be divided into several wards, each to return a single Member. Manchester and Liverpool, for instance, might be divided into three wards each returning a Member, and in that way a more equitable representation of the constituencies might be obtained. If the House failed to adopt either of those alternatives there might yet be with three Members a better chance of an influential minority being more fairly represented than it was at present. There was a feeling of fair play among Englishmen. Different interests would stand a better chance of being represented under a system of divisions than under that of cumulative voting. Important constituencies did not like to be neutralized by each political party returning one Member. If there were three Members it would often happen that where the Liberal party were strongest there would be no objection to the return of one Conservative and two Liberals, and in like manner where the Conservatives were strongest two Conservatives and one Liberal would be returned. That was really the case in five out of the eight places which returned three Members at present. The mode of dealing with the additional Members of the county was a question to which the county Members would direct their attention. What he now proposed was a scheme under which they would secure forty-five Members for towns, which might be carried up to fifty-two if the system of grouping were adopted. If they carried this Amendment they would have caught their hare, and it would remain for them to cook it, which they might do either by giving large constituencies three Members or dividing the towns into wards and the counties into divisions. He looked upon the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the distribution of seats among counties as unjust in principle, because he would give an undue advantage to some counties over others. The right hon. Gentleman either gave to counties two additional Members or none at all. For instance, it was proposed to divide South Staffordshire into two divisions, one of which—South West
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  —would have only 77,000 inhabitants, and the other—South East—leaving out Wednesbury, which was to be created into a new borough, 90,000, while North Staffordshire, which would have no additional Member, had 1,620,000 inhabitants. Again, South West Durham, with 76,000 inhabitants, would get two Members, while West Cornwall, with 169,000, would get no additional Member. East Middlesex and East Surrey would each get, with a population of 70,000, exclusive of Croydon, two additional Members, while South Essex, with 207,290 would have no addition. He mentioned these facts to show how the Government proposal would work. He could not but think that the scheme he had proposed would be more satisfactory. However, it would be for the Committee, guided by the advice of the county Members, to judge which course was the better one and adopt it accordingly. He would now turn to the Motion immediately before them. If the House thought fit to adopt the principle of grouping, and to disfranchise the very small boroughs, it would be open to them to do so, and subsequently to carry out that principle to a larger extent. An observation was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the second reading of the Scotch Bill, which struck him as directed more against the distribution of the seats in England than anything else—namely, that he wanted to keep a certain reserve to meet future changes in the growing population of the country. The scheme he (Mr. Laing) proposed would accomplish that wise object of keeping such a reserve. If they restricted the representation of all boroughs with a population of between 10,000 and 12,000 to one Member, there were no less than eleven boroughs from which a second seat might be obtained. They were boroughs not exactly in the odour of sanctity. If they once fixed the principle that Members should represent boroughs according to the extent of population, they might hereafter extend that principle with great advantage. There would be a probable reserve of from twenty to twenty - five Members which might be available for distribution in a future generation. The question practically to be decided by the vote of the Committee was whether, having acted with so much liberality in the extension of the franchise, and having gone in that respect so far beyond the Bill of last year, they would impair the symmetry of a great

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  measure, with which he hoped the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be associated, by adopting a scheme of re-distribution inferior to what had been proposed in last year's Bill, and so obviously below the expectations and requirements of the country. When Gentlemen on both sides, and especially hon. Gentlemen opposite, had made such painful sacrifices upon the altar of their country, in order to secure permanence of result, would they allow those sacrifices to be impaired by leaving this question of re-distribution on a footing which made it absolutely certain that agitation would be revived? The great hope of resisting the slope along that incline which would lead us to democratic institutions almost parallel with those of America consisted in our making a settlement of the question in all its bearings on such a footing that moderate men in future Parliaments might be able to rally round it. If they dealt with it in a manner which did not recommend itself to the common sense of the country, they might depend upon it that agitation would ensue, and the first great political question which would have to be settled under the auspices of a Parliament elected by household suffrage would be this question of the re-distribution of seats. He did not pretend that his scheme was a complete settlement of every detail, but he thought that it would form the basis of a fair settlement. No doubt the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a great deal of difficulty to resist the pressure which was naturally put upon him by the representatives of the small boroughs which would be affected by the measure, but he trusted that he would evince the same courage on this occasion as he had evinced on the previous evening in resisting the pressure put upon him to retain the boroughs of Great Yarmouth and Lancaster. He had no objection, if the Government adopted the principle of his scheme, to leave the details in their hands. They were all engaged in doing their best to arrive at a sound settlement of the question, and he trusted that his contribution towards it would be satisfactory. He submitted it with all humility, but he was convinced that, were it adopted, it would be attended with more satisfactory results than the plan proposed by the Government.
  Amendment proposed,
  In line 27, after the word "Parliament," to insert the words "no Borough which had a less
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  population than ten thousand at the Census of one thousand eight hundred and sixty one shall return more than one Member to serve in Parliament."—(Mr. Laing.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. BAILLIE COCHRANEsaid, he felt that he led a forlorn hope in offering any defence of the small boroughs. His position was the more discouraging since Honiton was unfortunately always included in Schedule A of a Reform Bill. Threatened men were said to live long, but he feared that their doom was at length inevitable. Difficult as they found it to parry the attack of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) last year, their situation was more painful now. "Had it been our enemies who had done this, then we could have borne it, but it was our companions, our own familiar friends." Fidelity to party would lead them to vote for their own extinction. They were called on to perform the Japanese ceremony of hari-kari, or happy despatch. Though glad of the opportunity of offering a few words in deprecation of their fate, he felt himself much like a prisoner at the bar when asked why sentence should not be passed upon him, for, say what he might, it would not avert judgment. Before, however, it was too late, he wished to make a last appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The House was about to confer a large measure of enfranchisement on the country, and they did well, but why should they couple with it the disfranchisement of a large population? On going through the list of the twenty-three boroughs which were each to lose a Member, he found, on referring to Dod, that there was in every one of them, a predominant local influence. The consequence, therefore, of leaving them with a single representative would be to throw them entirely into the hands of that local influence. The aggregate population being 140,000, 70,000 persons would be completely disfranchised since they would have no vote for the county. He could not see why additional seats should not be given to England as well as to Scotland, instead of proceeding by way of pains and penalties against those condemned boroughs. Where was such disfranchisement to stop? He fully agreed with the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Laing) that there was no reason why it should stop at 7,000 more than at 10,000, or 12,000, or 16,000. Where was the limit to be? The proportion of the num-

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  ber of Members to the population could never be exactly correct. Take the case of Lanarkshire. The population of that county (independent of the city of Glasgow), was 200,000. There was only one Member for the whole county. It was now proposed to add another, so that each would represent 100,000 persons. If they once adopted the principle of apportioning Members to population, they would sooner or later arrive at equal electoral districts. Both the late and the present Chancellor of the Exchequer had on former occasions pointed out the utility of small boroughs in introducing into Parliament in early life men whose presence was an advantage to the House. He would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman whether it would not be better to add to the complement of English boroughs than to punish these twenty-three boroughs merely because they were small, and to class them with the four who were to be disfranchised for corruption.
  MR. SERJEANT GASELEEsaid, he rose not to support the proposal of the hon. Member for Wick, but his own, which the hon. Member had taken out of his bands. On the night the Bill was introduced, he gave notice of an Amendment that boroughs with less than 5,000 population should be disfranchised, and that boroughs having less than 10,000 inhabitants and now returning two Members should lose one. The hon. Gentleman had seized upon the latter proposal, and had no doubt handled it with greater ability than he himself could have done. At the same time, he thought that in courtesy the Member who first gave notice of a proposal should be allowed to bring it forward—
  "Hos ego versiculos feci, tulit alter honores."
  He had addressed a letter to the hon. Gentleman on the subject, informing him that he was poaching on his manor. He regretted to say that he had received no answer beyond an oral assurance that the hon. Gentleman would not interfere with him. The hon. Gentleman, by somehow placing a notice on the paper taking precedence of his, and by doing it in more technical terms, had jockeyed him out of his claim to priority. He was, however, quite willing to give him the credit of having ably advocated his proposal. If the hon. Member felt no compunction, and did not think he had done him any injustice, he himself was quite willing to take the same view of it. He had not given notice of his scheme of distribution of seats for
  1402
  fear the hon. Member for Wick should filch that too. He had, however, got a scheme which, before they decided upon the plan of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he should offer to the notice of the Committee, but which he was, for the reason he had stated, cautiously keeping secret for the present. The hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Laing's) plan was open to the gravest objection. He should make allowance for his Scotch prejudices. The hon. Gentleman told the House that—lucky man as he was—he had only paid £600 for his seat. He wished England to be as pure as Scotland. If his system of purity was to take a man's proposal out of his hands and pass it off as his own, he preferred the dishonesty of England to the honesty of Scotland. The English people were very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for interfering in their affairs. He proposed to give another Member to certain boroughs of more than 150,000 population. He was thankful the hon. Gentleman had not given him another Member. He did not believe the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) would thank the hon. Gentleman for giving him another Member. He believed that two Members were sufficient for any borough. He should be inclined to propose that the two additional Members for the district of the Tower Hamlets should be taken from the City of London. The hon. Gentleman, in dealing with the counties, gave them twenty-six Members out of the forty-eight which he proposed to take from the boroughs. If, however, he took from the boroughs, he should also give back to the boroughs. Unfortunately, however, as the House must have seen, the hon. Member for Wick did not know the difference between meum and tuum. He had now disposed of the only part of the plan which was the hon. Gentleman's own. The hon. Member had studied Scotland more than he had England. What did he propose to do for the metropolitan boroughs. There were 6,000 intelligent and wealthy householders in Paddington. Why did he not separate that district from Marylebone and St. Pancras and give Paddington a Member? What an opinion the hon. Gentleman must have of himself to set himself up against both the Government as it is and the Government as it was. The hon. Gentleman said—and he could not help boiling with indignation when he heard the hon. Gentleman appropriate his proposition — "Mine is the plan: make

  1403
  way, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer; hide your diminished head, right hon. Member for South Lancashire; this is my plan — the plan of the hon. Member for Wick, with the assistance of the hon. and learned Member for Portsmouth." The hon. Gentleman proposed fourteen new boroughs which he had cribbed from the Government. So that of his proposal part belonged to the Government, part to him (Mr. Serjeant Gaselee), and the chances were that the rest belonged to some one else whom they might some day find out. The hon. Gentleman said the system of grouping worked well in Scotland. No doubt he thought so when they returned him for £600. He should like to send the hon. Gentleman to Portsmouth, and try whether they would return him for £600. He would then be able to speak with the authority of a person who represented 108,000 persons instead of the handful he now represented, and his plan might then come to some importance in the House. He differed entirely from the hon. Gentleman, and objected to the system of grouping. In his own scheme—which he hoped the hon. Gentleman would not filch from him—he did not interfere with the Government grouping, though he disapproved the system of grouping, because it would be presumption on his part to do so. He took that opportunity of tendering his thanks to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the manly and able manner in which he had carried this Bill. Through good report and through evil report the right hon. Gentleman had met hon. Members with a temper which he wished they could all imitate, and a courtesy which they would never forget. The objection to grouping was that when old and new boroughs were grouped together the old boroughs corrupted the new. His plan was to take away the Members from all boroughs with a population of less than 5,000, and to take away one Member from every borough containing less than 10,000 population which now returned two Members. He also proposed that the new boroughs to be created should be entirely new, and should not be formed by grouping old ones. The boroughs created before 1832 were more corrupt than those created since 1832. As the first revising barrister for Yarmouth, he asserted unhesitatingly that he found the people not only accustomed to bribery, but that they rather gloried in it than otherwise. A new borough, on the contrary, did not understand
  1404
  bribery, or what was meant by it, though, he was sorry to say, some Members very soon taught them.
  MR. GOLDNEYsaid, the observations of the hon. and learned Member for Portsmouth amounted to this—that the hon. Member for Wick had acted wickedly. Although his (Mr. Goldney's) borough (Chippenham) was affected to a certain extent by the Government proposal, he would show the Committee that they ought to adhere to the Government plan, and not rush too hastily into that proposed by the hon. Member for Wick. They ought to remember the course which was taken by the Ministry in passing the Reform Act of 1832, and the figures and data upon which they relied in bringing forward that measure. In 1832 all boroughs with a population of less than 2,000 each were placed in Schedule A. Their right to representation was entirely taken away. Boroughs having a population of less than 4,000 were left with only one Member in cases where they possessed two. The seats thus obtained were distributed on the plan of giving one Member to every town of 10,000 inhabitants, and two to every town of 20,000. The scheme which was at present before the Committee had gone much higher than the scheme of 1832. A population of 7,000 instead of 4,000 was left as the basis at which representation by two Members should commence. Looking at the increase in the population of the country, if the principle of 1832 was right, the present principle was right also. In the Reform Act of 1832 the franchise was given to those who had an occupation of the annual value of £10. The present franchise was much larger than had ever been contemplated before, and, according to the largeness of their intention, so ought to be the care of the House, in endeavouring to assimilate the new constituencies with those of the Constitution as settled in 1832. Under the provisions of Part I of the Bill already agreed to, there would not be a borough left with two Members with a constituency of less than 1,200. A number which might fairly be regarded as independent of those attorney and newspaper influences to which the hon Member for Wick had referred. Moreover, as matters stood at present, there were only eighty out of the 186 boroughs in England which had a larger number of electors than 1,200. The experiment contemplated by the Government measure was sufficiently large and important

  1405
  without extending it in the manner proposed by further disfranchisement. The Government by their scheme obtained thirty-six seats, which they had distributed to the satisfaction of all parties. If hereafter new towns should rise into importance, it might be possible to provide for their claims at the expense of other places guilty of practices such as had led to the vote of last night.
  MR. SAMUDAsaid, that the proposal of the hon. Member for Wick was one that could only be justified by strong political necessity, or by the delinquency of the particular boroughs affected. Care should be taken to make the disturbance in the existing order of things—that the alteration of the law would create—as small as possible. The proposal of the hon. Member for Wick would create a much greater disturbance than that of the Government. He had sought in vain to gather from the argument of the hon. Member any proof that grounds of this nature existed for the rash course he contemplated. It was alleged last year by the adoption of the 8,000 limit, injustice would have been committed, because Bridport happened to fall just within, and Tavistock just beyond, the boundary line. If the hon. Member would compare the four largest boroughs he now proposed to disfranchise with the four just beyond his line of 10,000, he would find that there was not on the average a difference of 300 voters between them. He did not think that so fine a line should be drawn, and made to act disadvantageously as regarded boroughs which had not been guilty of corrupt practices. Tiverton had returned Lord Palmerston; Tamworth had returned the late Sir Robert Peel; Tavistock had returned Earl Grey, and subsequently Lord Russell. If the House went on in that way they must come, before long, to electoral districts.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that the hon. and learned Member for Portsmouth (Mr. Serjeant Gaselee) had complained that his hobby had been stolen by the hon. Member for Wick (Mr. Laing), and that its head had then been turned round the other way from that which he had intended, if the hon. Member for Wick had not mounted with his face towards the tail, The hon. and learned Gentleman spoke of the idea of increasing the county representation in the spirit of a Shylock. It should be remembered how very small was the proportion of direct representation in that House which the majority of the English
  1406
  people resident in the counties possessed, as compared with that allotted to the minority in the boroughs, considering the population and the property within each respectively. The 11,500,000 people in England and Wales residing in the counties were directly represented by only 162 Members, while there were in that House no less than 334 representatives of the 9,500,000 people, residing in the English and Welsh boroughs. He believed that it was very desirable that this inequality should be redressed as far as possible. He had listened attentively to the able statement of the hon. Member for Wick, and no one who had heard it could doubt that the plan proposed by the hon. Gentleman proceeded from one of the most intelligent and business-like minds in the House. These qualities, indeed, as possessed by the hon. Member, were universally recognised. He felt grateful to the hon. Member for having proposed the increase of twenty-six representatives for the counties, while the Government by their measure would limit the increase under that head to fifteen, although the county Members had for years constituted the principal clement of their strength in that House. The hon. Member for Wick had adopted the increase of the county representation which had been proposed by the late Government. The inequality that the House was called upon to redress was so great that he (Mr. Newdegate) thought the proposal a very short measure of justice, for he remembered that by the Bill which was proposed by the Government of Lord Aberdeen in 1854—a measure framed by Earl Russell and Sir James Graham with the sanction of Lord Palmerston—forty-six Members were intended for the counties, in addition to their present representation. The Committee had hitherto been discussing at great length the question of the borough franchise, all the details relating to the compound - householders, with all the minuteness of a parish vestry; they had also given some little attention to the county franchise, but they seemed to forget that the essence of Parliamentary Reform really consisted in the allocation of the representation. The redistribution of seats had been truly described by the hon. Member for Birmingham, in a remarkable speech made in 1859 at Bradford, as the soul of Reform. It was the most important point to be dealt with in reference to the subject of Reform, and deserved their most serious considera-

  1407
  tion. No one who remembered the magnitude of the change, which had been effected in this matter by the Reform Act of 1832, and the advantages, of which that change had been productive, could, he hoped, feel alarmed at the moderate proposal now made by the hon. Member for Wick. He would lay a few figures relating to that matter before the Committee. By the Reform Act of 1832 no alteration was made in the number of Members in that House, but the following changes were made in the re-arrangement of Members to the constituencies:—Fiftysix boroughs with populations from twelve to 3,961, were disfranchised; thirty boroughs, with populations from 2,325 to 8,915, and sending two Members each, were reduced to one Member each; one borough (Weymouth and Melcombe Regis), with a population of 7,700, sending four Members, was reduced to two Members; the Parliamentary area of eleven shire towns or boroughs in Wales was extended by adding adjoining places, and the limits of other boroughs were altered; twenty-two new boroughs, with populations from 23,129 to 359,864, were created, with two Members each; twenty new boroughs, with populations from 10,339 to 40,786, were created with one Member each; one English county (Yorkshire), sending two Members, was increased to six Members; twenty-six English counties, sending two Members each, were increased to four Members each; seven English counties, sending two Members each, were increased to three Members each; three Welsh counties, sending one Member each, were increased to two Members each; and one new county district (Isle of Wight) was created, by being severed from the county of Southampton, with one Member. There existed at the present moment a new and most important reason why it was prudent that the Legislature should add to the county representation. The House had just adopted the principle of household suffrage for the boroughs, and had thus secured a vast increase of strength to the action of democracy in this country. What were the characteristics of democratic action? The natural result of the establishment of democratic ascendency would be to create in the larger towns constituencies that would be—he would not say revolutionary—but that would be fluctuating and impulsive in their opinions and desires, uncertain, yet arbitrary in their action; and, although free from corrupt influences generally, yet
  1408
  liable to be led away by self-constituted leaders. Such would be the effect of enfranchising large masses of the wages-earning class in borough constituencies. The effect of constituencies of this class, when divided into small knots, such as the constituencies of the small boroughs, would be very different; for in constituencies of this kind corrupting influences would become extremely powerful. This had been proved by experience in the case of the old scot-and-lot voters and freemen. The best check to the double danger of capriciousness on the one hand, and liability to corruption on the other, would be to extend the county representation, in which each of those influences was comparatively powerless. That was a truth which had been perceived and acknowledged by Lord Chatham, by Mr. Pitt, by Mr. Grey, Sir Francis Burdett, and many other distinguished statesmen. The advantage of representation based upon properly and population conjoined, as in the counties, was described by Lord Chatham in language so beautiful that were he not unwilling to detain the House he should have quoted it. He (Mr. Newdegate) would, with the permission of the House, read the Resolutions proposed by Mr. Pitt in 1783. The first Resolution was—
  "That the most effective and practicable measures ought to be taken for the better preventing both of bribery and expense in the election of Members to serve in Parliament."
  The second—
  "That whenever it shall be proved before a Select Committee of the House of Commons, duly appointed to try and determine the merits of any election, or return for any place in the kingdom, that the majority of the electors had been guilty of corrupt practices in such election, it will be proper in all such cases, that such place shall henceforth be disabled from sending representatives to Parliament, and that such electors as shall not (by due course of law), be convicted of any such corrupt practices, shall be enabled to vote at the election of the knights of the shire, in which such place shall be situated."
  These were the two Resolutions, in the spirit of which the House had yesterday acted in the case of the boroughs proved to be habitually corrupt. He (Mr. Newdegate) hoped that the House would that evening act in the spirit of the third Resolution, which was—
  "That, in order to give further security for the independence of Parliament, and to strengthen the community of interests between the people and their representatives, which is essential to the preservation of our excellent Constitution on its true principles, it is proper that an addition should be made to that part of the representa-

  1409
  tion, which consists of Members chosen by the counties and the metropolis."
  He (Mr. Newdegate) trusted that the House would act in the spirit of this Resolution with respect to the redistribution of seats; the House could scarcely act upon higher authority. But the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had, in 1859, while introducing the Reform Bill of that Session, declared that in re-distributing the representation of the country, he should discard all consideration for the population and property, existing in the several localities and districts, and even of the claims of population and property conjoined; thus differing distinctly from both Lord Chatham and Mr. Pitt, as well as the other high authorities whom he (Mr. Newdegate) had mentioned. Last Session the right hon. Gentleman used those expressions with respect to the county representation—
  "The House knows well the statistical fact, that 11,500,000 of the population of this country are represented here by 162 county Members. They know that 9,500,000 people, living in boroughs, are represented in this House by 334 Members—borough Members. Well, now, upon the first blush one would naturally say, how is it possible that such a system could have existed so long, and worked so well, founded upon such monstrous anomaly, on such injustice, as that 11,500,000, of a free people should be only represented by 162 men, while 9,500,000 people, because they live in boroughs, are represented by 334 Members."
  This was spoken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 4th of June last. Afterwards the right hon. Gentleman, in the same speech, made the following statement:—
  "I will now state to the House—I may be mistaken in what I say; but, at all events, I have gone through the necessary research and trouble—the number of supplementary votes, which the landed interest—that is to say, these 11,500,000 people, who are not represented, except by 162 county Members—receive. It is eighty-four. Now, if you deduct eighty-four from 334, the number of borough Members, you will find 250 as the result. If you add these eighty-four to the 162 county Members, you will find the result to be 246, as against 250; and there you see the counteracting machinery by which our system has been permitted to work so advantageously. It is not a complete and perfect adjustment of the claims of the landed interest; but you cannot in the arrangement of a large and ancient constitution, expect too great nicety, but only a fair approximation to what may be called electoral justice."
  The Committee would observe that the right hon. Gentleman, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, had here spoken of the county populations, of all the interests
  1410
  beyond the limits of the cities and boroughs, as though they were properly comprised under the term the landed interest, which had otherwise been described as the agricultural interest. Such was not, however, at all the fact with respect to the county populations, which were nominally represented by 162 county Members; but really by not more than 100 or 106 of these Members, in the sense in which the boroughs are represented directly and exclusively by the 334 borough Members. For the freeholders and leaseholders, whose qualifications are within the boroughs, but who, in virtue of these qualifications, vote for the counties, within which the boroughs are situate, are so numerous, that if the proportion which these borough voters at county elections bear to the whole number of the county electors is deducted from the aggregate of the county electors, it will be found to amount to a third or thereabouts of the whole number of the county electors; and if this influence which the borough voters for the counties possess on the county representation is measured by a proportionate deduction from the aggregate of comity Members, it will be found that not 106 county Members remain to represent the majority of the English and Welsh population and property, who reside, and which lies be yond the limits of the boroughs, in the direct and exclusive sense, in which the 334 borough Members represent the minority of the population, who reside within the boroughs. But he (Mr. Newdegate) could not at all admit the deduction from the great excess of representation of the minority of the people resident in the boroughs, that the Chancellor had attempted last Session by alleging that eighty-four of the borough Members represented the landed interest, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer termed the majority of the population, resident in the counties — a description which he (Mr. Newdegate) thought very inaccurate. He had searched for the eighty-four borough seats, which were alleged to represent the county interest, the majority of the English and Welsh people. He (Mr. Newdegate) had searched for evidence of the position taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that these eighty-four borough Members represented the landed interest. He (Mr. Newdegate) admitted that some of the small market towns in agricultural districts, which were boroughs, continued to be connected chiefly with the commerce of agri-

  1411
  culture. But he (Mr. Newdegate) could find no evidence that anything like eighty-four seats for borough constituencies were of this character; on the contrary, it was notorious that the course of trade, of finance, and of credit connection had resulted in rendering many of the minor boroughs dependent on the great commercial and manufacturing centres. It was notorious that many of the shopkeepers in these boroughs had lost their independence by becoming the mere commission agents of the large establishments in the great centres of manufacture and commerce. While in proportion as many of the smaller boroughs increased in size, their local interests had become more absolute, and less connected with the land around them. He himself was connected with two counties—Middlesex and North Warwickshire—in both of which the landed or agricultural interest was in a small minority. The same remark applied to several of the midland counties. But he would take one instance to show how inaccurate was the inference that the landed interest comprehends the whole interests of the counties, of the majority of the English people. The yearly value of minerals, including coal brought up from the mines, was £27,000,000. There were 333,000 persons employed in raising these minerals, which, multiplied by three, to embrace their families, gave about 1,000,000 of people dependent immediately upon mining. The annual value derived from the smelting of iron and copper, &c., amounted to £13,000,000, which, added to the £27,000,000, made a total of £40,000,000 annually derived from sources in the counties, with which agriculture, the landed interest proper, had no connection whatever. In addition to this it was to be borne in mind that there were large commercial and manufacturing interests in the counties, which were also disconnected from the landed influence. The House would commit a grievous mistake if, from some jealousy of the great landed proprietors, they failed in doing justice to that large population, which comprised one-third of the inhabitants of the United Kingdom, who resided beyond the limits of the boroughs. It could not be said that the county Members were such an incumbrance that any increase in their numbers ought to be most jealously avoided. Some gentlemen seemed to think that they were an intellectual obstruction, but what were the real facts of the case? Why the right
  1412
  hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire, whose acquirements, intellect, and capacity nobody could impugn, the Leader of the Opposition, was a county Member, as was also the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. What was further to be noted was, that while the majority of the English people, living in counties, were most inadequately represented, the same could not be said with equal force of the property and the county populations in Scotland, nor with equal truth of those in the counties of Ireland. On this ground alone there was surely reason for demanding a remedy. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham professed to meet the case of the counties by saying that the agricultural interest was amply represented by the House of Peers, and that there was therefore no necessity for increasing the number of the county Members. This was a most fallacious supposition. The House of Peers was by the constitution of this country precluded from dealing with any matter of finance or taxation. How, then could they represent the large and important county interests, to which he had referred? It was not true that the Peers were wholly connected with the agricultural or landed interest. The Marquess of Westminster, the Marquess of Salisbury, the Earl of Derby, and many other Peers had the greater part of their property within the boroughs; and if any one went systematically through the roll of the Upper House, it would be found that, as a rule, the wealthiest Peers were scarcely more connected with agriculture than with other interests. Then, again, with respect to the question of intelligence. A prejudice existed to the effect that the majority of the people living in counties were intellectually inferior to the inhabitants of boroughs. There could not be a greater mistake. The men who realized fortunes in manufacturing and commercial pursuits left the boroughs, where they gained their money, and went to reside in the counties, and immediately that they did so, they lost more than half their political influence, owing to the smallness of the direct representation of the counties, compared with that of the boroughs. The acquisition of wealth had always been held a proof of intellect, and the possession of wealth enabled these persons to give their sons a superior education. The property, the intellect, and the education of these persons and their families were disfranchised

  1413
  by half when they left the boroughs and settled in the counties. On whatever ground, therefore, the Committee might consider this question, a sufficient case, he thought, had been made out for increased representation for the counties. Nor was he alone in holding such an opinion. He (Mr. Newdegate) was, on this subject, a pupil of the late Sir James Graham, and Sir James Graham had himself told him (Mr. Newdegate) that he considered the counties ought to have forty-six additional seats, which would now be forty-three, since three of the four seats, from Sudbury and St. Albans, had been allotted to the counties.
  SIR GEORGE GREY: We have heard a good deal during this discussion of the advantages likely to be derived from the course pursued by the Government in respect of the borough franchise. It is said that we have at any rate obtained a resting-place in dealing with this branch of the question, which has been the subject of such controversy in this House and throughout the country, and that in fixing upon household suffrage qualified only by rating, and free from those checks which the Government at first thought necessary, we shall put a stop to further agitation, because no man who has any weight or influence in the country, or any regard for our mixed constitution, or who has the true interests of the country at heart, will advocate any further extension of the suffrage. Not undervaluing that advantage, we are much diminishing, if not wholly depriving ourselves of, the benefits to be derived from it, if we do not deal with the other branch of the subject so as to check and not to invite agitation. That agitation would be more formidable than anything we have yet seen, because it would be backed by that popular element which you are infusing into the borough constituencies. In re-distributing seats we should attempt such a settlement as will give us a reasonable prospect that it will not be disturbed by the first Parliament to be elected by the new constituencies. I do not think that the Government plan affords any such prospect. The probability is, that in the very next Parliament the question would again be agitated. I am not complaining of the Government for their proposal, because I know well the difficulties in which any Government must be placed in making a proposal for a large disfranchisement. We all know that the wider the plan of disfranchisement the
  1414
  greater the amount of individual opposition. At every step you take in this direction you enlist against you Members whose supposed interests or those of their constituents are directly affected by the proposals of the Government. Looking, however, at the important alterations which have been made in the Bill, and which will be apparent on a comparison of the original Bill with the Bill as re-printed, I cannot help hoping that the Government will not feel themselves bound to adhere to their original proposal, but, with a view to the permanent settlement of the whole of this question, will be prepared to go much further in the re-distribution of seats. My hon. Friend (Mr. Laing) has explained the scheme he proposes to substitute for that of the Government. The Motion now be fore the Committee, is that boroughs with a population of less than 10,000 shall return only one Member. That is the proposal we are now asked to decide. I can not hesitate to support it on the ground that it lays the foundation for a more satisfactory settlement than the plan of the Government. Last year we proposed that boroughs with a population of less than 8,000 should lose one Member. It may be said that there is some inconsistency in making that proposal and in now advocating one which goes further than that did. But I do not think that proposal, limited to boroughs with 8,000 inhabitants, was one which we should have been able to maintain. My doubt now is whether we ought to stop at towns with a population of 10,000. Another reason for adopting this proposal is that it will answer the question which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has more than once declined to answer, with regard to the source from which additional Members for Scotland are to be supplied. The right hon. Gentleman said that the wisdom of Parliament would answer that question. I hope the wisdom of Parliament will now answer it by affording to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the means of doing justice to Scotland without increasing the number of this House. It has been said that there is no magic in the number 658. I agree in that; and it is possible that there may be at some future time good ground for altering the number by increasing or diminishing it. But I cannot help feeling that the greatest inconvenience will follow any departure from that number which rests on long prescription without the most paramount necessity. If you in-

  1415
  crease that number now, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be exposed to claims from places which, looking at them merely in themselves, may have a fair claim to representation. We cannot then tell them that we have disposed of all the vacant seats. They will pay, "Having increased the number of Members to 662 or 665, you might as well have two or three more." If you once depart from the present number you will have Lancaster and Great Yarmouth re-opening the question, and saying "Look at our large population; you have dealt with us very harshly; put us again in the position of returning Members to Parliament." I hope therefore that this proposal will be adopted, and that we may do justice to Scotland without incurring so serious an inconvenience. I agree with the hon. Member (Mr. Newdegate) that it is desirable that the county representation should be increased to a larger extent than that proposed in the Bill. In every sense this proposal would enable us to deal more satisfactorily with the re-distribution of seats, and therefore I shall support it. Although the whole plan is not before the House, I must say a word upon the mode in which my hon. Friend proposes to deal with the smallest class of these boroughs. Last year we proposed an extensive system of grouping. We felt that there was no alternative between disfranchisement and grouping, and that these boroughs, some of them containing a population of less than 3,000—a population, too, which is continually decreasing—could have no chance of remaining as a permanent part of the representation. We therefore thought it necessary to deal with them, and adopted the system of grouping. I am aware of the difficulties which are raised to any such proposal, and I do not express any opinion upon that part of the scheme of my hon. Friend. But the proposal of the Government to leave some of the smallest class of boroughs standing alone is only to invite future attack. It may be said that you are now, by the extended franchise, largely increasing their constituencies. But you cannot very largely increase the constituencies of these boroughs. I doubt whether the increase you will make in many of them, where you will add to the constituency a large body of agricultural labourers, will add to the importance and the weight of these places in the representation of the country. With such a population there is no reasonable hope that
  1416
  these boroughs can be permanently maintained in our representative system. On every ground therefore I think it is desirable to adopt the Motion, without pledging ourselves to the details of the whole scheme proposed. Indeed, I understood from my hon. Friend that if this Motion were carried he would leave it to the Government to reconsider the distribution of seats.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The hon. Member for Wick, when he introduced this Motion, recommended it to our adoption for one reason—namely, that it would diminish the anomalies of the present system. I think the hon. Member was not as prudent and sagacious as he usually is in his observations when he founded his recommendation on such a ground. I shall not argue the case pro or con upon the question of anomalies. In an ancient representative system like ours there must be anomalies. It is very likely that by sudden and extensive changes we may produce anomalies perhaps more inconvenient than those which now exist. To contend that a town of 8,000 inhabitants returning two Members to Parliament, while a city with 500,000 only returns the same number, is an anomaly which is intolerable, is inconsistent with recommending to the House that a town with 10,000 inhabitants should be placed in exactly the same position. The anomaly is much the same with the population at 10,000. At any rate it is a question of degree, and if you pursue that train of calculation you will soon find yourselves with results under which your whole representative system will fall to the ground. When you adopt the principle of avoiding anomaly as your guide in the re-construction of your representative system you are startled when you find a town like Northampton returning two Members, while other towns in the North of England with 500,000 are represented only by the same number. But we never adopted the principle that the Gentlemen sent to represent places in this House should represent the numerical amount of the inhabitants. Accident has had a great deal to do with the matter. But at no period has it been a matter of importance to us that we should come to some contrivance by which large cities should be numerically represented. If the plan were partially carried out, and partially carried out it could only be, it would have a most injurious effect upon the House of Commons, and it would not tend to increase or maintain that influence which it

  1417
  is desirable the House of Commons should exercise over the general mind of the country. When you have a question of this kind before you it would be well that you should be guided by some principle, though perhaps not one of universal application. The principle which has guided us is this, that we should supply representation to those communities that have sprung up or have greatly increased since the Act of 1832, and which at present are not represented. To give representation to those that are not represented is a safe and practical policy which we recommend the House ought to adopt. With that view our attention has been directed to towns—new communities are necessarily towns—and we have placed the names of those towns before the Committee. The considerations which ought to influence us in coming to a conclusion in this matter are the population of those towns, their industrial or commercial importance, and their probable future increase; also their position in different parts of the country, for you ought not to have a number of towns so represented in the same part of the kingdom. But if you give a considerable increase of representation to the towns you aggravate the inequality, which no one has more fully impressed upon the House than myself, between the representation of the counties and the towns. It is therefore necessary when you consider by what means you should give representation to those new communities which do not possess it, but which are entitled to receive it, that you should take some means simultaneously, by which you should at least sustain the relative position of the county representation. You must consider the means of which you can avail yourselves for giving representation to the new towns, and at the same time increasing proportionately the existing representation of the counties. These were the two objects to which we confined ourselves. These were the principles by which—with the exception of giving one representative to a place of learning, and favouring the idea of bringing representatives of Universities into this House—Her Majesty's Government have been guided. They are practical and prudent principles. They meet the exigencies of the moment, and the Committee should pause before they pass that line. It is very easy to disfranchise; it is very easy to say that it is anomalous that those small places should have any representation, or a representation out of all proportion
  1418
  to their importance when compared with other places. The difficulty when you have disfranchised is to enfranchise. You can draw up a scheme for giving away sixty or seventy seats; but when you come to apply wisdom and prudence to the distribution of the seats at your disposal you will find yourselves in circumstances of great difficulty. You are safe as long as you give representation to places which ought to be represented in this House and are not. Her Majesty's Government have pursued that policy as far as possible. I do not know any places which have a claim to be represented for which we have not provided. You are safe in making changes of that kind. You are also safe in giving a proportionate increase to your county representation. Here you find, as it were, a natural limit, for you follow the general principles which have hitherto regulated your legislation. In the scheme we have laid before the House, by dividing those counties and sections of counties in which the population has reached an amount which justifies an increase of representation we give that increase. But the number of counties that can be so treated is exhausted. What has been the result? We have been told today and were told before, and a serious result it is, you must accumulate representation in particular towns, cities, and counties. You are entering upon a new course, and I recommend you to pause before you adopt it. There are different schools of representation rising up in this country whose views are now beginning to be more familiar to the world than they were before. Last night a distinguished Member of this House brought before us, in a manner which I think was most interesting, a particular scheme of representation, the object of which is to give what is called representation to minorities. That is a very important principle, but it would be well for the Committee to hesitate before adopting it. I will not now dwell upon it, because I wish to advert to other schemes which depend upon the allocation of a third Member to certain constituencies. One of these plans is cumulative voting—that any constituent may give his three votes in favour of one person. Another, of which I see a Notice upon the Paper, and which is to be brought under our consideration, is that, in those electoral communities which are to be represented by three Members, the constituent should have the curtailed privilege of voting only for

  1419
  two, so that the minority may have a representative secured to them. Well, Sir, these may be wise schemes, or they may be crude—that is a question for discussion. I can understand proposals for increasing the representation of places by adding a third Member if you are ultimately to adopt these schemes; but if you are not, it appears to me that it is a perilous course we are asked to pursue. There is no place which needs to be represented by more than two Members. In this age of rapid communication, both personally and by post, if we were to choose between three Members and one, I should certainly be in favour of one Member. The general tendency of our legislation has been in the direction of one Member. Bear in mind the great increase of our population and property, an increase which I hope will continue. Assuming that this great country will multiply as it has done in wealth and population, and knowing that we must have additions to our representation, it is a safe and wise principle to hold that one Member is competent to represent a community. You have already many constituencies with only one Member, and if you give increase to that system, places with one Member must at last command a majority of this House. If you adopt any of those schemes with respect to three Members, it is impossible that this can come to pass. I think before the House sanctions any of those schemes for securing the representation of the opinions of minorities we should consider whether it is not the business of the House to represent majorities. It is a fallacy to suppose the minority is not represented. Under normal circumstances the minority must be with the Opposition. That does not apply to the present state of circumstances, but that is only an accident. Although the House may in the aggregate represent the opinions of the majority of the country, there are a great many places that form part of that aggregate where the minority in the House are the majority in the country. Those opinions, therefore, whether generally popular or unpopular, are expressed and vindicated in this House, and if they are just and right will in the long run prevail. That, in my opinion, is the best mode by which the opinion of the minority can be ascertained. Schemes by which the opinion of the minority is to be locally secured—secured not in the aggregate assembly of the nation, but where they are, in every constituency,
  1420
  whatever may be the opinions of the majority—would necessarily result in a weak and feeble Government You would not have in this House that strength which arises from the victorious conflict, in a general election, in a free nation, of opinions which, being prevalent, ought to be represented. It appears to me that all these schemes of representing minorities are schemes which naturally tend to the formation of a feeble Executive. Unless, then, these are the results which are sought by establishing constituencies each with three Members, I see no reason for adopting the policy which the hon. Member for Wick has recommended. He does not pretend to say that if the Government measure were adopted there would be any community in the country unrepresented. No one says that. But he says there will be great dissatisfaction and great agitation if we do not approve his scheme. But why should there be agitation? Why is there agitation upon the subject of the representation of the people so far as the distribution of seats is concerned, except because communities of industry, wealth, and numbers, are not at present represented? If every place having a fair claim to representation is provided for, I cannot believe there is any likelihood of the agitation which the hon. Member apprehends. Where, I repeat, is the agitation to come from? The only complaint that can justly be made is that the counties are not adequately represented. There is not the slightest doubt about it—it has been proved very often—that the counties are not adequately represented. I should be glad to see them adequately represented; but I do not believe there is any chance of attaining that result by any violent method. Some of my Friends seemed favourably disposed to the scheme of the hon. Member for Wick on account of its increasing the representation of the counties. I am not at all sure that the Motion before the House would secure that increase. It would greatly augment the number of seats at your disposal; but when you have them you may probably have proposals made very different from those which have been contended for by my hon. Friend (Mr. Newdegate.) With his views upon this subject I have always agreed, having, indeed, always advocated them. I think he has quoted somewhat incorrectly a passage from something I once said. He seemed to suppose that I had mistaken the population of the counties generally for what he calls the agricultural

  1421
  interest. The "agricultural interest" is a phrase I avoid. I have used the term "landed interest." But I look upon the phrases "agricultural interest" and "landed interest" as by no means identical. The landed interest includes all those interests that spring from the land, such as the mineral treasures developed from the land, which commonly belong to great landowners. I will not, however, detain the Committee on this point. I only wished to vindicate myself from the charge of my hon. Friend. Now, Sir, I want the Committee fairly to consider the position in which we are placed. I do not want to refer to previous measures on this subject; I am perfectly content to confine myself to the point before us. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Grey) has taken another view. He seems to have given in his adhesion to the general sentiment of the Committee with respect to the borough franchise, and he argues from the fact of the borough franchise having been adopted, the necessity of a large re-distribution of seats. I was unable, however, to collect from the right hon. Gentleman what was the principle upon which he based the necessity of such a scheme. Is he prepared to say that there are certain interests and communities in this country which by the proposal of the Government will not be adequately represented? Are the Committee prepared to lay down the rule that they are not to limit their remedial course in this respect to giving representation to places which deserve representation and do not at present possess it. Are they to go about in search of a complete ideal of representative government in this country? If so, there is no reason why we should stop at the limit which the hon. Member for Wick proposes, and which the right hon. Gentleman supports. If once you pass the line of providing for that which is necessary—if once you enter into the large area which the hon. Member and the right hon. Gentleman have entered into, I cannot see why we should stop at the conclusions at which they have arrived. There is no reason, if this question of the representation of the county population is to be considered upon its merits and not with reference to the circumstances before us, why we should not carve out the country, and endeavour to give a mathematical and precise representation to the 11,500,000 who undoubtedly are very inadequately represented. I do not think the Committee are prepared for this. The Committee are animated by
  1422
  an essentially practical view. They will guide themselves by certain practical and prudent considerations. They will give representation where it is wanted, and as far as the counties are concerned will do that on which we all agree—namely, take care that their relative position with regard to the represented towns should not be injured. These, Sir, are the objects which Her Majesty's Government have in view in the scheme they have placed before the Committee. It may not be a large or extensive scheme. But it is a scheme founded upon a principle—that of meeting public wants—and it is conceived in a spirit of public prudence. I hope, therefore, the Committee will not embark on the sea of troubles on which I fear they will find themselves if they sanction the Motion of the hon. Gentleman. The country will accept this as a prudent and satisfactory settlement of the question at this time. The question of the re-distribution of seats is not like the franchise. The franchise is now founded upon principles which as far as human calculation is concerned may be taken as the basis on which our electoral system will rest. But periodically—it may be half a century, or it may be a longer or shorter interval—you will have great towns arising. Periodically you will have industry developed in particular counties in a manner which no sagacity could foresee. You will have communities and populations which require representation in this House. When those occasions arise, when those claims are made, they will be met by the wisdom of Parliament. But the moment we attempt to frame an ideal system of representation, or at all to approach such a change in our representative system, we undertake a difficult task. In confining ourselves to giving representation to those who we acknowledge require it, and in redressing as we practically can the deficiency in the representation of the counties, we follow a prudent course. We shall never make a mistake if we follow that course. That is the course Her Majesty's Government recommend, and which I hope, in order to avoid embarrassment, the Committee will sanction.
  MR. GLADSTONE: It has been with some regret and disappointment that I have heard the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. I think the Motion of my hon. Friend gives expression at this stage of his plan to a sentiment widely-spread in this House, the prevalence of

  1423
  which is by no means confined to one side of the House, and one which is still more widely extended out of doors. This not being a matter in which Her Majesty's Government can feel that they are bound by any theory or previous expression of opinion, I hoped that the right hon. Gentleman was about to say that be would be prepared to recognise that sentiment. I was glad to perceive that, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer reasoned ingeniously and ably — as he always does—in support of the view he takes, he did not make any of those significant announcements which might convey to the minds of Members apprehensions with regard to the general disturbance of his plan in the event of the adoption of my hon. Friend's Motion. I therefore hope and I assume that this is a question which we may discuss without fear or favour or prejudice of any kind, and in that spirit I shall endeavour to argue it. I agree with my right hon. Friend (Sir George Grey) that we bring no charge against the Government, nor find fault with them because in the exercise of their discretion they have thought fit to submit a limited plan to the House. We bring our ideas into the common stock with a view to the adoption of that plan which may be most advantageous to the country. The right hon. Gentleman made an ingenious and able argument with respect to the representation of minorities. I do not think it necessary to enter into that subject. The relevancy of it to the Motion now before us was founded upon an assumption which does not appear to me to be sustained—namely, that if we are to have a large scheme of re-distribution, and a considerable number of seats at our disposal, there is no method of disposing of those seats except by establishing upon an extensive scale what is termed the unicorn system of representation. Why? The right hon. Gentleman has given us an example of the sub-division or re-division of counties. Why may we not follow that example, and act on a more extensive scale upon the principle he has himself adopted? He said that that process had in the Bill reached its utmost limits. But he adduced no proof, either political or geographical—and I do not believe any proof can be adduced — to show that it would not be perfectly practicable and convenient, if the Committee should think the system of representation by three Members is less convenient than the system
  1424
  of representation by two, to enter upon the system of further sub-division or re-division. This system is not wholly inapplicable to the case of great towns. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has opened the door to the augmentation of great towns without adopting the representation by three Members. He has opened it doubly by proposing the sub-division of the Tower Hamlets. He has made provision to divide that into two boroughs, and to give two Members to each. He has also proposed to sub-divide Glasgow city into two parts, and to represent one part by two Members and the other by one. I have this morning had the opportunity of seeing a deputation from a town of great importance and intelligence, and I put this case to them. I asked them whether, if Parliament gave them additional Members, in which of two ways they would like to enjoy the benefit—whether by three Members representing the whole town, or to make an unequal division. The answer unanimously given was, "We would rather have two Members for the larger portion, and one for the smaller." The town in question is not separated by the geographical division of a river like Glasgow. It is the town of Birmingham. It is a false assumption to suppose that if you enlarge the area for re-distribution of seats you are thereby driven to the adoption of the system of the representation by three Members of one constituency. That is a perfectly open question, and, so far as I am able to form an opinion, the judgment of the House and of the country is adverse to the wholesale adoption of such a course. The right hon. Gentleman says that there is nothing easier than the process of disfranchisement. That is not my experience. "It is the first step that costs," in a course of this sort. It is now, when there is a barrier before us, partly in the judgments, partly in the pardonable associations of Members, and their special localities — now is the time when we confront difficulties. After removing the obstacles which have been before us this Session, I think the country will expect us in dealing with the great remaining chapter of this subject to manifest a spirit not less courageous than that which has cut the knot of the borough franchise. The right hon. Gentleman says there is no use in speaking of the reduction of anomalies, because in all ages there have always been anomalies, and it does not matter whether the anomaly is a

  1425
  little greater or a little less. But the ideas of the right hon. Gentleman on the subject are really a re-production and echo of that which was the constant strain of the opponents of the old Reform Act. They said you cannot altogether remove anomalies. Therefore, there is no use in attempting to mitigate their extent. The right hon. Gentleman says we ought to look at the question in a practical spirit. Let us, then, look in a practical spirit at the subject of anomalies. In theory it may be very well to say that as long as any anomalies remain you will have the materials and incentives to agitation, but practically it is not the case in human affairs. It is by the mitigation of anomalies that you get rid of agitation. It is by attempting to maintain them in salient and sharp outlines that we give force to agitation. The right hon. Gentleman says that the plan of the Government rests upon an intelligible principle, and that if we go beyond it there will be no intelligible principle to guide us. His principle is that the plan of the Government meets existing wants and necessities. Is that altogether true? Is it true in any aspect of the case? I cannot admit with regard to the new boroughs that in all cases it is desirable so to economize the distribution of seats as to aggregate together a considerable number of new towns, or that you should bring together the population of various spots and make them into groups, and thus deal with the claims of large populations by giving them a few Members, I think we shall have to deal more liberally with these groups, and dissolve some of them that are now too large. Then, with regard to the doctrine that representation by one Member is the best. If it be the best, why not subdivide the counties? Why not put them off with one Member? I do not know what answer can be given to that question. I am not going to grudge the gift the right hon. Gentleman offers to the counties, and one of my reasons for agreeing to the proposal of my hon. Friend (Mr. Laing) is that it will enable the Government to give a larger representation to counties. I object to the doctrine of the right hon. Gentleman that when we are establishing new constituencies and new limitations for Parliamentary boroughs and districts, we shall do well to confine ourselves to giving one Member. I am not aware that experience has shown that representation by one Member—although it is better than
  1426
  representation by none at all—is desirable. It is, at all events, not so superior that we are justified in supposing from past experience that the communities which are to have Members of Parliament will henceforward prefer representation by one Member to representation by two. Therefore, I am not prepared to admit that the claims of great communities now represented by one Member only are so satisfied by the plan of the right hon. Gentleman that we are able to take the ground he invites us to take, and to say that we are by so doing making reasonable provision for all existing wants, and that beyond this we are not prepared to go. The right hon. Gentleman talks of the new towns and the vast populations that are rapidly growing, and which are supposed to claim increased weight in the representation. I do not think that the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman contains such satisfactory provisions that we can take our stand upon the limited plan he offers us. But there is another and serious question which I hope will attract the attention of the Members for Scotland. I am not prepared to subscribe to the declaration of my hon. Friend (Mr. Laing). He says I give you this considerable number of Members for England, but I leave the wants of Scotland to be supplied by an additional number of Members of this House. I see considerable danger in connection with the benevolent proposal of the Government towards Scotland. We are now invited to reject the proposition of my hon. Friend (Mr. Laing). Suppose we do? We shall then have to deal with only a limited number of seats at our disposal, and none at all will go to Scotland. I should oppose the giving of any of this limited number of seats to Scotland. We have thus disposed of the case of England. It is quite clear that Ireland can afford no Members to meet the wants of Scotland. We then come to Scotland. She will have to meet the whole face of that adverse judgment which a very large proportion of this House have formed against the increase of Members of this House. I would earnestly invite the Scotch Members to bear in mind the assailable nature of the position in which they would stand if they have no other available fund out of which to answer the credit which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to us in favour of Scotland, except the speculation of an increase of the number of Members of this House. This brings me to a practical point. The right hon. Gentleman has no

  1427
  title to say that he has adequately met the absolute necessities of this case until he has done one of two things. He should either propose an adequate representation, which would include a plan of re-distribution of seats, and give room enough for a fair supply of the wants of Scotland, or else manfully come down to this House and ask the House to agree to a Resolution that we ought to give Scotland more Members in consequence of her increased population and property. I will give no opinion on the subject. All I will say is that the promise of the Government in regard to Scotland is worth little in the market until it be supported by some scheme more solid than that she is to meet unaided the indisposition to increase the number of Members of this House. The great principle on which I venture to support the plan of my hon. Friend is that which was expressed by my right hon. Friend (Sir George Grey). That plan—I speak of the first portion of it, assuming that its subsequent development will be a development in the same free spirit, I by no means bind myself to the development as it has been described—the plan of my hon. Friend is, in the best sense of the term, a Conservative plan. It promises us a fair hope and chance of a settlement of this question. There is nothing in it adverse to the principles which should regulate the government of the party opposite, or which should regulate the conduct of this House. At this great crisis it is incomparably superior to your plan of re-distribution, which is in glaring contrast with your whole plan of the franchise. You have adopted that plan of the franchise. It has become irrevocable. It is idle, even if there were any lingering regrets in the mind, to think of recalling it. The best mode, therefore, of securing the well working of the system you have established, of laying the foundations of future tranquillity, and sparing yourselves the recurrence of this difficult and vexatious subject—necessarily impeding the prosecution of the general business of legislation—is to adopt that plan and that scale for the re-distribution of seats which though it will not extinguish will mitigate monopoly, give satisfaction to the public mind, and induce the nation to accept the plan as a portion of a solid structure intended to last for many years, and increase the capacity of Parliament to perform the business of the nation.
  MR. BUTLER-JOHNSTONEsaid, he would urge the Government to render their scheme, as a whole, worthy of the beginning.
  1428
  He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer, merely on account of the difficulty of the question, would not look back having once put his hand to the plough. He trusted that he would proceed to the settlement of the entire question, a result which would not be achieved by the present scheme of the Government.
  MR. HENRY SEYMOURsaid, he would ask the House to do an act of justice by excluding from the operation of the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Wick the borough (Poole) which he represented. Though at present within the limit of 10,000, it was a large and rapidly-increasing town. No anomaly could be greater than to leave to old and decaying boroughs their full complement of Members, while constituencies that were rapidly rising in importance were deprived of theirs. He proposed to substitute for "the Census of 1861," in the Amendment of the hon. Member for Wick, the following words:—" On the 1st of January, 1867, according to a Return to be furnished by the Poor Law Board."
  Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment,
  By leaving out the words "at the Census of one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one," in order to insert the words "on the first day of January, one thousand eight hundred and sixty-seven, according to a Return to be furnished by the Poor Law Board,"—(Mr. Henry Seymour,)
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  SIR THOMAS BATESONsaid, that as the representative of a doomed borough, he wished to ask a question upon which his own vote and that of many hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House would depend. If they supported the hon. Member for Wick in his first proposal, would he undertake not to press his grouping system, to which they objected in toto?
  MR. LAINGsaid, he had endeavoured to make it as clear as possible that he looked upon grouping as a mere accessory to his plan. The main point upon which the Committee would divide was, the proposal to raise the line from 7,000 to 10,000. He had stated clearly that he was willing, if the Motion were carried, to leave in the hands of the Government the disposal of the extra seats, and not press the question of grouping if he found them adverse to that proposal. As regarded the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for

  1429
  Poole (Mr. Henry Seymour), he should be most happy if he could consistently make an exception in his favour. But the entire Committee would feel that in dealing with figures of this sort they could only take the figures which had always been taken, the official figures of the census.
  MR. HENRY SEYMOURsaid, that he had not moved the Amendment on behalf of his own borough merely. He would withdraw it.
  Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 306; Noes 179: Majority 127.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, an allusion had been made by his hon. Friend the Member for the Wick Burghs (Mr. Laing) as to the possibility of the Government reconsidering the question of the disposal of the seats thus acquired. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman as to the probable time when that question would arise. He thought it would be desirable to resume the discussion on the Bill as soon as the state of the business of the House would permit, and to take into consideration the Motion of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Portsmouth (Mr. Serjeant Gaselee), or any Other Motion which might be brought forward. When the Committee knew how many seats there were to be disposed of, they might perhaps ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would undertake to prepare a scheme of distribution.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he would fix the Committee for Monday, and would so arrange matters that the time of the Committee would not be wasted.
  House resumed.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  Name, Regiment, and Rank of Officer.

  Name of present Staff or Military Appointment.

  Date of present Appointment.

  Date of former Appointment or Appointments, if any.

  Special Circumstances for re-appointment over five years, or for appointment to a new Appointment.

  —(Sir Patrick O'Brien,)
  —instead thereof.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

ARMY—STAFF APPOINTMENTS.

  MOTION FOR RETURNS.
  SIR PATRICK O'BRIENmoved an Address for a Return of all appointments made on the Staff, including military appointments at the Horse Guards and War Office, from the year 1855 to 1867 inclusive, and other particulars. The grant of the Returns would go far to remove the jealousy felt as to appointments held for a longer period than five years, with reference to which a very natural feeling of umbrage existed in the breasts of many officers that through the non-observance of the regulations they should be excluded from employments which they deemed themselves, and were deemed by others, perfectly qualified to fill. He understood the Secretary of State for War objected to allowing the "special circumstances" for the re-appointments to appear in the Return, on the ground that it would be injurious to the public service. He confessed that he was unable to comprehend on what ground this objection was made.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, a Return of all appointments made on the Staff, including Military Appointments at Horse Guards and War Office, from the year 1855 to 1867, inclusive, and where such appointments have been held for a period longer than five years, or where on the termination of the term of one Staff Appointment or Military Appointment as aforesaid, the late holder has been within six months appointed to another Staff Appointment; stating the 'special circumstances' for such reappointment, as mentioned in Article 106, Section 2, of the Royal Warrant of February 3rd 1866, according to the following tabular form:—
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, the hon. Baronet had applied to him, in the first instance, to know whether the Return would be granted as an unopposed Motion. He replied that he was quite willing to grant the Return, with the exception of the last column, which was headed as follows:—"Special circumstances for re-appointment over five years, or for appointment to a new appointment." When a rule of this kind as to a statement of special circumstances was in existence it ought to be observed. Holding the position he did, he was responsible for its observance. For the most part the rule had been fairly observed. When the rule was first established exception was made with respect to officers then holding certain appointments, and in other cases there were circumstances which had induced some relaxation. But, on the whole, the rule had been very fairly observed. If the Return were given with the last column filled up, it would have an invidious aspect. He hoped the hon. Baronet would be content with the assurance he gave as responsible Minister of the Department that the rule should be observed unless there were special reasons to the contrary. He was prepared to grant the Return moved for, except the last column.
  SIR PATRICK O'BRIENsaid, that he would accept the Return in its restricted form.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

IRELAND—QUEEN'S UNIVERSITY.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, he rose to call the attention of the House to the present position of the Queen's University in Ireland. He desired to give no occasion for the revival of the somewhat warm discussions which took place on this subject last year. He should have occasion to say something as to the grounds on which the late Government proposed those changes in the Queen's University, of which the Charter of last year was a very imperfect portion. Beyond that he should confine himself to a narrative of what had since occurred with the view of eliciting from the present Government an explanation of their intentions as to the Queen's University, and as to the probable course of legislation, to be adopted. It was now almost three
  1432
  years since the hon. Member for Tralee (The O'Donoghue) moved an Address to Her Majesty representing the conscientious objections which prevented a large number of the people of Ireland from enjoying the advantages of University education, and praying that steps might be taken to remove the evil. That Motion was met by an admission of the grievance from the right hon. Member for Morpeth (then Home Secretary, Sir George Grey). The right hon. Gentleman added that he did not believe that Parliament would be prepared to multiply the number of Universities in Ireland. He stated that, in the opinion of the Government, the best course would be to alter the Charter of the Queen's University, to enlarge its powers, and remove the restrictions which prevented that University from granting degrees except to students proceeding from the three colleges attached to it. Upon that statement being made the hon. Member for Tralee withdrew his Motion, thereby laying the Government, and, to a very considerable extent, the House of Commons also under the obligation that that pledge should be carried into effect. Nevertheless, partly from unavoidable, and partly from avoidable causes, the pledge had not yet been fulfilled. It was true that a supplemental Charter was issued last year, enlarging the powers of the Queen's University. But legal proceedings had since been instituted which rendered that supplemental Charter of no effect for the present. Even if such proceedings had not been commenced, that Charter was avowedly and notoriously incomplete, it never having been intended that it should stand without the accompaniment of an Act of Parliament. Unless it should be completed by an Act of Parliament, it never would in any true sense carry out the intentions of the late Government. He would now say a few words as to the nature and the grounds of the changes which the late Government proposed to make in the system of University education in Ireland. The Governments of Lord Palmerston and Lord Russell were in succession convinced that though the Queen's Colleges were in their sphere excellent institutions and had obtained considerable success, they had yet failed to meet the educational requirements of the Irish people. This arose partly from their local character, which prevented them from extending their benefits far from their immediate neighbourhoods,

  1433
  Partly, and still more, because a large portion of the Roman Catholics in Ireland desired to send their sons for education to institutions such as the people of this country were familiar with — institutions where the teachers were of the same religious denomination as the students, and directly connected with some religious body. Attempts had been made to show by statistics that this assertion was without foundation, that all Roman Catholics in Ireland who desired to obtain University education already obtained it through the Queen's Colleges. Such a statement could not be sustained. Taking the College season of 1864–5, which was a period previous to any disturbing causes arising out of the discussions on the proposed changes, the whole number of students in attendance at lectures in the Queen's Colleges was 837. Out of these only 229 were Roman Catholics. In that season, 288 new students entered the three Queen's Colleges. Of that number seventy-three only were Roman Catholics. When the proportion which the Roman Catholics bore to the population of Ireland was considered, when it was recollected that the Queen's Colleges were in the main designed for the special benefit and relief of the Roman Catholic population of Ireland who had been excluded from the educational endowments, which in a natural and normal state of things would fall to the share of the great majority of the nation; and when it was borne in mind that, although the authors of the Queen's Colleges—the late Sir Robert Peel and Sir James Graham—fully expected that at least the Colleges of Cork and Galway would be substantially Roman Catholic Colleges, yet the Roman Catholic students were in a decided minority in those Colleges, while they were almost invisible in the College of Belfast, the House could not fail to come to the conclusion that the utterly subordinate position of the Roman Catholic students in the Colleges was not commensurate with the expectations of the founders, and not satisfactory to Parliament, which voted money for the colleges in the hope that they would be beneficial to the Irish people. Independently of statistics, it was impossible for the House to shut its eyes to the assurances received from every organ of Roman Catholic opinion, to the effect that while a certain number of Roman Catholics availed themselves of the benefit of the colleges, those colleges were far from meeting the requirements
  1434
  of the Roman Catholic population. A large portion of the Roman Catholic people of Ireland were not conscientiously able to avail themselves of the education afforded by the colleges. They were institutions not for mere boys, but for growing-up and grown-up young men. When there existed in this country a strong feeling in favour of education being given in institutions connected with the religious faith of the parents of the students, was it to be wondered at that in Ireland such a feeling should be far stronger? It had been said that there was a University in this country which would satisfy all the requirements of the case — namely, the London University. It was supposed by some that the facilities which were afforded by the London University to Irish students were very considerable. But that admirable institution could never take root to any great extent in the sister country. The Irish people were not acquainted with its governing body, and were not represented there. There was besides a kind of national feeling which operated in those matters, which to venture to ignore would be to fight against nature. Since the foundation of the London University in 1840 the number of degrees which it had conferred on candidates proceeding from Ireland did not amount to twenty. Of those by far the greater proportion had been conferred on students of Carlow College, which he had reason to believe would prefer being connected with an Irish University established in Dublin. Under those circumstances, the late Government had decided upon a plan which it seemed to them would meet the state of things he had just mentioned. They proposed to enlarge the powers of the Queen's University by throwing its degrees open, not only to colleges of a denominational character other than the Queen's Colleges, but—subject to such rules as the Senate might lay down—to all candidates who might comply with its requirements. They did not propose to interfere with the Queen's Colleges beyond putting an end to the monopoly of Queen's University degrees which they had hitherto enjoyed, and exposing them to the open air of competition. They further intended to ask the House to vote a sum for the establishment of University scholarships, in connection with the central University in Dublin, which should be open to all comers. It was their intention also to give increased dignity to the Queen's University by enabling it to return a Member to Par-

  1435
  liament—a proposal which he had last year the honour to make. The late Government had in addition placed a Vote upon the Estimates, which he was glad to see in the Estimates for the current year, for the purpose of securing to that University a proper local habitation in Dublin. They desired, too, to increase the number of the Senate, and to provide, as far as possible, that it should be so composed as to secure the confidence of the whole Irish people, and of the Roman Catholic portion of the population in particular. The plan which he had thus briefly sketched had been carried out but imperfectly by the steps which the late Government had been enabled to take last year. A supplementary Charter had been granted giving all that they were informed by their Law Advisers they could give. The powers of the Senate were thereby enlarged, but what had been done fell very far short of that which the Government had it in their mind to accomplish. The Charter did not profess to make any alteration in the body corporate. Under it the new candidates were not put upon an equal footing with the students of the Queen's Colleges. It was the intention of the late Government that the Charter should be accompanied by a Bill. That Bill was ready, and would have been introduced had not the existence of the Government suddenly terminated—in fact, the separation of the Charter from the Bill had been only caused by the accidents of Parliamentary warfare. The number of the Senate was not increased, but the vacancies then existing were filled up by the appointment of four eminent Roman Catholics and of two Protestant noblemen. It was the original intention of the Government which founded the Queen's College that there should be, as stated by Sir James Graham, a fair proportion of Roman Catholic professors among the professorial body. It was true that difficulties were said to have arisen in finding competent Roman Catholic gentlemen to fill those posts. Knowing the great educational difficulties under which members of that persuasion long laboured, he could well understand that such was the case. His conviction was, however, that those difficulties might be overcome, as they certainly must be if the Queen's Colleges were to maintain their usefulness. If an united system of education were to be established in Ireland, it must be taken with its necessary conditions and limitations. The system of union and participation
  1436
  must exist in the teaching body as well as among the students, not only for the sake of giving their due professional prizes to Roman Catholic gentlemen of learning, but of creating that confidence and proper self-respect which ought not to be denied to the Roman Catholic students of those Colleges. From an accurate pamphlet which had been written by a member of the Queen's University (Sir Dominic Corrigan), he found that last year or the year before there were some sixty professors in the Queen's Colleges. Out of those there were only seven Roman Catholics—a proportion which could be hardly just to the Roman Catholic body. The College of Belfast, which was a very eminent and, in its way, a successful institution, could scarcely, with justice, be called non-sectarian. Last year, out of 405 students in attendance at that College, there were only twenty-two Roman Catholics. Out of 135 new entrances of students the proportion of Roman Catholics was but six. In the whole teaching and governing staff there was not a member of that persuasion. With respect to the composition of the teaching body and the body of students, there was no doubt that the institution was as much a Denominational body as the Colleges of Oxford or Cambridge. That might explain to the House why the College of Belfast was so excessively popular with the Protestants of Ulster, and why it was so unpopular, judging from their attendance, with the Roman Catholics. He would turn to the history of the Queen's University since the late Government left office. On the 6th of last October the Senate of the Queen's University met, and by a majority of 11 to 9 accepted the supplemental Charter. Soon after that a remarkable event occurred. The Convocation of the Queen's University was for the first time assembled under the special mandate of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. The Lord Lieutenant, if he remembered rightly, expressed a hope that the Government would be enlightened by the discussions of that body. He knew not whether that expectation had been fully realized. At all events, the Convocation met. It was a somewhat noisy and tumultuous assemblage of high-spirited young men, most of them young Bachelors of Arts, who gave a rather rough reception to their respected Vice Chancellor. They, no doubt, by an overwhelming majority passed a resolution to the effect that the acceptance of the supplemental Charter was impolitic, al-

  1437
  though a protest was sent in to the Government against the conduct of the majority. He need hardly say that in his opinion that was not a question to be decided by a body of young men one way or the other. The institution with which they were dealing was the creature of Parliament. It was maintained solely and absolutely by Parliament. It was for the Government and Parliament to decide how far the claims of a great portion of the Irish people were to be considered, and in what way the funds voted by Parliament could be best applied to the purpose for which they were intended. There was one circumstance at the meeting of the Convocation which he wished to mention. Sir Robert Kane, the President of the Queen's College at Cork, an eminent and respected Roman Catholic gentleman, was put forward to move the Resolution already referred to, condemning the supplemental Charter. But he declared his desire to see the Catholic University admitted to the Queen's University as a College upon entirely an equal footing with the Queen's Colleges. He opposed the supplemental Charter on this ground, among others, that it would introduce into the Queen's University the system of the University of London, which admitted a non-collegiate education, and gave the full benefit of University degrees to students not proceeding to a College. This he thought an injurious system. Since then Sir Robert had been fully answered by Dr. Carpenter, the Registrar of the University of London, and lately also by Lord Granville, its Chancellor. He would leave him to their tender mercies. He would only say that if the system which gave University degrees to students coming from all quarters was necessary in England, it was still more so in Ireland, where there were many families who could not afford the expense of sending their sons to reside at a distance or in college towns. After that meeting, the Senate proceeded diligently and cautiously to give effect to the supplemental Charter. They appointed a Committee, who considered and adopted the new rules that were requisite for carrying out their enlarged powers—rules that met with very general approval in Ireland. In pursuance of them they gave notice that the first examination for candidates under the now Charter would take place in January last. The opponents of the supplemental Charter made an application to the Master of the Rolls in the course of
  1438
  the autumn for an injunction to restrain the Senate in its proceedings. A provisional or ad interim injunction was, with great hesitation, granted by the Master of the Rolls. Of course, it stopped all the Senate's proceedings for the time. The case was argued, on the part of the Senate, just before the meeting of Parliament. The Master of the Rolls, changing the opinion he had first formed when he granted the ad interim injunction, gave judgment on the 16th of April in favour of the Senate, dismissing the petition of the graduates with costs, on the ground that they had no locus standi, and that their interests were not injured by anything that had been done. The Master of the Rolls, however, gave expression, though with the greatest hesitation and doubt, to the extra-judicial opinion that the Senate of the Queen's University was not legally entitled to accept the supplemental Charter. Acting, he presumed, on that weighty though extra-judicial opinion, other parties had since then instituted fresh proceedings upon an information grounded on the fiat of the Attorney General. He asked the Government what they intended to do under the circumstances he had sketched. Did they intend that the Queen's University in Ireland should remain indefinitely in its present position? There were many persons who had been waiting a long time in the hope of obtaining degrees, who were grieved and disappointed at the delay to which they were subjected. Were the Senate to go on indefinitely defending suits at their own private risk, or were the expenses to be provided by Parliament? It was the duty of the Government to interpose and to anticipate the possible results of litigation, either by sanctioning and completing by further legislation the plans of the late Government, or by providing something wiser and better. He could imagine a plan more acceptable to the country. He could imagine the throwing open of the University of Dublin to the people of Ireland. He spoke of the University of Dublin as distinct from Trinity College. That would be better than the plan of the late Government. Such a scheme had been hinted at by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The principle was gaining ground that a University should be a national institution; that, as it derived its powers of granting degrees from the State, it should be required to confer them freely and equally. In this country we had seen Universities limited

  1439
  and warped by denominationalism and religions tests. In Ireland, on the contrary, this Queen's University had been warped and limited by the necessity of refusing its degrees to any denominational college, and of confining them to the three colleges founded on the non-sectarian system. One system appeared to him as partial as the other. However acceptable the system of united education might be to many in this country, and even to a considerable number in Ireland, was it wise to attempt to force it on the Irish people by the refusal to any other system of the benefit of University degrees, which the State alone could sanction and confer? Was there common sense in refusing the services and support of eminent Roman Catholics in Ireland, who were willing to take part in a united university because they were not willing to connect themselves with united colleges? Was there any legal or academical obstacle at Oxford to the foundation of Nonconformist or Roman Catholic Colleges? It was the aim of University reformers here to give liberty in these matters, and not to impose either a denominational or an undenominational system. This was what they wished to see in Ireland. They wished that students from any college, Roman Catholic and Presbyterian included, might obtain degrees at the Queen's University. He did not mean to say that he believed the scheme of the late Government could be a final settlement of the matter; that there could not be without a fresh allocation of ecclesiastical endowments, and a general settlement of the ecclesiastical question. But it was right as far as it went. The present Government were not responsible for it. They found it launched, but incomplete, and absolutely requiring interference and legislation. He appealed to the Government not to treat this as a party question. He called upon them to state what their intentions were. They would be justly blameable if they any longer disappointed the expectations of great numbers of persons in Ireland by allowing the University to remain subject to all the delays and hazards of litigation.
  LORD NAASsaid, he had listened with great interest to the speech of his light hon. Friend, but found it difficult to discover what were his precise opinions upon University education in Ireland. He slid that the Queen's Colleges were to a certain extent a failure, as they had not succeeded in gathering to themselves the
  1440
  sympathy and support of a great portion of the Irish people. No doubt this was so. It was to be regretted that institutions maintained at such expense, and in the success of which such interest was felt in this country, had not succeeded. But it was extraordinary that the right hon. Gentleman and others who were always attempting to establish a system of University education in England as nearly analogous to that of the Queen's Colleges as possible should turn round and say that a system which they thought a right one for England was wholly unsuited to Ireland. As University reformers the right hon. Gentleman and those who agreed with him tried to throw open the governing bodies of all educational institutions in this country to persons of all denominations. This principle, carried to its legitimate conclusion, would result in the establishment here of precisely the same system as existed in the Queen's University and Queen's Colleges in Ireland. Denominational education was altogether excluded there. The professors and students were entitled to the benefits which education and a degree gave, independently of religious belief. In practice there might be some difference, in principle there was none, between this system and that so often advocated by hon. Gentlemen opposite. He did not express any opinion whether the system was right or wrong. The mixed system was found in full operation in the Queen's Colleges. If any alteration were made in it they would revert to the modified denomination that exists in Trinity College, at Oxford, and Cambridge. When, therefore, hon. Gentlemen opposite wished to change the system of the Queen's University, they assumed a most inconsistent and illogical position. Whether it eventually succeeded or not, he believed that a purely secular University education did not at present recommend itself to the feelings of any great class in either country. The feeling was strong that parents would rather send their sons to a college conducted by professors of their own faith than to one where the greater part of the education might be conducted by members of a different creed. This feeling was at the root of the difficulties experienced by the Queen's Colleges. He would now call attention to what had taken place respecting the Queen's University. The Charter of 1850 limited the governing body to the Senate. In 1864 that Charter

  1441
  was considerably enlarged, and a draft was remitted to the Senate, which discussed and altered it. Under that Charter for the first time a mode was granted for the constitution of Convocation. Two powers were conferred upon that body. The power of electing members to the Senate, and the power of meeting in order to discuss all matters affecting the interest of the University. The power of discussion was postponed until the Queen's Letter should issue directly authorizing it. When the Charter passed the University was, to a certain extent, in an infant state. Meetings for discussion were then unnecessary. The first occasion for the exercise by Convocation of the power of election of a member of the Senate arose on Lord Monteagle's death, in 1866. The graduates then signified their wish to elect a member to the governing body. At the same time, there were rumours that considerable alterations were intended by Government in the constitution of the University. Early in 1866 the graduates expressed a desire to discuss those proposed changes. In February, 1866, a certain number of them petitioned the Senate to summon Convocation for the purpose of electing a member to fill the vacancy. No answer was returned. A similar application was made in April, but no meeting of the Senate was convened. In the meantime the attention of Parliament had been directed to this question. Without going into the details of what took place here, the impression was certainly left upon the minds of many hon. Members that no fundamental change would be proposed in the constitution of the Queen's University until Parliament had an opportunity of expressing its opinion on the subject. [Mr. LOWE: No change at all.] It was gathered from the remarks made on the part of the Government that whether these changes were to be effected by a Bill, by supplemental Charter, or by an Estimate, Government was not to act until the opinion of Parliament had been taken. What happened? A division which led to the resignation of the Government took place on the 18th of June. Their resignation was announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 26th of June. On the 25th the supplemental Charter passed the Great Seal. On the 27th of June, the day after the resignation of the Ministry was announced to this House, a Royal Warrant was issued appointing six new members to the Senate.
  1442
  He had not a single word to say against the character or fitness of the gentlemen so appointed. But he must point out that they all belonged to the one political party, and though a large majority of the educated classes in Ireland belong to the party opposed to the late Government, not a single Conservative was nominated. The Senate immediately assumed a partisan complexion which he thought it unfortunate that any such body should assume. The Vice Chancellor summoned the Senate for the 6th of July, and a meeting was held. But the discussion of the supplementary Charter was postponed until later in the year. That meeting was attended by his right hon. Friend (Sir Robert Peel); by his advice the discussion on that question was postponed. Either in the August or September following the present Government received an application from Members of Convocation asking them to grant a Queen's Letter, according to the terms of the Charter of 1864, in order to enable them to discuss the supplementary Charter. A warrant to that effect was signed by the Government on the 25th of September, without the slightest hesitation. The demand was reasonable and in accordance with the terms of the Charter, nor did he believe that any Government could refuse to give the power asked for. Convocation was to meet on the 12th of October. It was a remarkable fact that on the 6th of the same month a meeting of the Senate was called to discuss and decide upon the acceptance of the supplementary Charter. The circumstance was remarkable, because it was well known that Convocation was to meet on the 12th for the purpose of discussing and expressing an opinion upon that very subject. The Senate met on the 6th, and after a private debate, of which the public knew nothing, decided by a majority of 2 in favour of the acceptance of the new Charter, the numbers being 11 to 9. It was remarkable that every one of the new members of the Senate did what was expected of them and voted for the acceptance of the Charter. At that meeting two Amendments were moved. They appeared so reasonable and fair that he could not understand the grounds on which they were rejected, and he thought a great deal of the difficulty and ill-feeling which had since arisen would have been avoided had the Senate adopted either of those Resolutions. The first Amendment was as follows:—
  "That as serious doubts exist as to the competence of the Senate to accept the Charter of

  1443
  the 25th of June last, and as many Members of the Senate are of opinion that its provisions are inexpedient, the Senate declines to entertain the question of its acceptance until and unless Parliament shall have legislated on this subject."
  That was the Resolution designed to give effect to what the House of Commons expected and intended—namely, that no steps should be taken in the matter until Parliament had had an opportunity of coming to a decision upon it. That Amendment was rejected. The second Amendment was as follows:—
  "That the discussion be postponed till Convocation shall have had an opportunity of electing a representative in the Senate and of declaring its opinion on the Charter."
  Though Convocation was to meet in the following week, that Amendment was rejected. On the 12th of October the meeting took place in St. Patrick's Hall. Large numbers of graduates were present. He was somewhat surprised to hear the disparaging way in which so distinguished a Member of the Liberal party as his right hon. Friend spoke of the public discussion which then took place. [Mr. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE made a remark which did not reach the gallery.] He had no doubt that the meeting was noisy, but ninny public meetings were noisy. However that might be, able speeches were made on one side and the other. His right hon. Friend seemed to dread public debate on the question, and insinuated that such discussions were not for the benefit of the University, and that they were much better suited for the Senate. In his opinion public discussion on such questions was most useful and tended to elicit truth. After a long debate Convocation came to this Resolution—
  "That in the opinion of Convocation the acceptance of the supplementary Charter is inexpedient."
  That Resolution had no effect on the Senate—it was treated with superb contempt. Regulations which were calculated to carry into effect the objects of the supplementary Charter were drawn up and published in the month of November. The object of the regulations was to provide for the examination of students under the new rules in the following January. On the 3rd of December those proceedings were put a stop to by an injunction of the Muster of the Rolls. The two points involved in the case submitted to the Master of the Rolls were, first, as to the power of the Crown to grant a supplementary Charter, and secondly, whether that Supplementary
  1444
  Charter was valid without the sanction of Parliament. After long and able arguments adduced on both sides, on the 16th of April the Master of the Rolls pronounced his decision, dismissing the case, on the grounds that the promoters had no locus standi, and that the suit had not been instituted in the names of the proper parties. The Master of the Rolls, however, delivered a remarkable opinion, which, though it was extra-judicial, perfectly justified those interested in the case in carrying it further. The Master of the Rolls said—
  "As I have come to the conclusion that the petitioners cannot sustain the present petition, it becomes unnecessary to decide the question whether the power of accepting or rejecting the Charter is vested in the Senate or in the corporation at large of the University; but, after the very elaborate discussion which this question has undergone, I cannot say that I have not formed an opinion upon it. It is certainly not free from difficulty, but my present impression is in favour of the view pressed by the petitioners, that the Charter of 1864 does not vest the power of accepting or rejecting the new Charter in the Senate exclusively."
  He had now brought the course of the proceedings down almost to the present day. There was every reason to hope that at no distant period this question would be submitted in proper form to a Court of Law, and he trusted a decision might be pronounced upon it with all convenient speed. The Government had from the beginning taken no part in the question beyond that purely Ministerial duty which their office imposed upon them. The Attorney General had given his consent to the suit, and he was informed on the highest legal authority that in doing so he was only discharging a duty which it was absolutely necessary for him to perform. The Government could not have refused to sanction the meeting of Convocation without a great dereliction of duty. Their sole object had been to allow this important question, to be decided in the only satisfactory way—namely, by a Court of Law. They would feel it their duty not to take any action until the decision of a legal tribunal had been finally pronounced. The course taken by the former Government was attended with unfortunate results. The present Government believed they would have acted contrary to their duty had they taken any step without having submitted the subject to the consideration of Parliament. [Mr. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE: Hear, hear!] Did the right hon. Gentleman think the Government ought to have introduced a measure for confirming the sup-

  1445
  plemental Charter? If not, what could have been the object of a Bill? [Mr. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE: The whole policy of University education.] The whole policy of University education. Had they proposed an entire scheme, it might or might not have been in opposition to the supplemental Charter and the system proposed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Action was impossible while the case was sub judice. Suppose the Courts of Law should decide in favour of the validity of the Charter, it would place any new scheme which might be in opposition to it in an awkward position. He did not believe any Government ought to have incurred such a responsibility. In waiting till the question had been decided by the proper tribunal they had studied the best interests of University education in Ireland, and had acted in accordance with the expressed wishes of the majority of this House, Whenever the time came they would not shrink from expressing frankly upon the subject the views which they entertained, for it was one which could not be allowed to rest. It would be the duty of the Government and of the House to endeavour to make University education in Ireland more acceptable to the great mass of the Irish people. He did not think he was bound to go further upon the present occasion, and he would rejoice if that object could be effected without weakening the system pursued in the Queen's Colleges, which had so often received the support of the House, and, particularly in the North, conferred great benefits on Ireland. However it could be done, we must recollect that Universities, colleges, and schools were only means to attain a great end — namely, that of imparting education to the people, and he did not think that any strict adherence to previous measures ought to deter Government and Parliament from endeavouring to adopt that system of education which would most largely promote the diffusion of knowledge among the people of Ireland.
  MR. O'REILLYsaid, however eloquently the undenominational system of education might be advocated in or out of that House, it was quite clear that the great mass of the Roman Catholics in Ireland would not adopt it. They had been waiting patiently for a measure of justice from the Government, both in respect to primary and University education, and they wished to know the intentions of the Government upon those points. He had listened attentively
  1446
  to the speech of the noble Lord, and he felt utterly disappointed in not being able to ascertain the precise opinion of the Government. He was ready to receive a measure of justice from whatever side of the House it might come. He had entertained hopes of a measure of justice from those hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who now sit on his side of the House. But he was doomed to disappointment. With regard to primary education, no doubt certain concessions of considerable value had been inaugurated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Louth (Mr. Chichester Fortescue). The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Morpeth (Sir George Grey) had promised a measure to enable Roman Catholics to obtain degrees in the Dublin University. But the plan developed by the late Government they were unable to carry out. With respect to University education, he found that owing to a technical legal difficulty, to which the Roman Catholics had nothing to say, they were practically debarred from all degrees conferred by the University of Ireland, unless they chose to be educated in the Queen's Colleges. To his knowledge there were fifty young men prepared to stand the examination in order to get a degree last January. They were now put off. He remembered when the noble Lord (Lord Naas) was in Opposition, he was arraigning the then Government for their faults. When the right hon. Gentleman who then held the office of Home Secretary declared that the system of education in the Queen's Colleges was to be altered, the noble Lord said that any such proposal would have his opposition. It was with grave regret he had come to the conclusion which most unwillingly a large body of his Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen would come to, that Her Majesty's Government did not mean to meet their just claims on the subject of education in Ireland. He had hoped to have received justice from hon. Gentlemen opposite; but having waited for a long time for some declaration that it was intended to make education in Ireland more acceptable to the people, he had been greatly disappointed, and so would the great mass of his fellow-countrymen. When they asked for redress they were told that they must wait the result of the Chancery suit. He asked the Government whether they intended to re-model the Queen's Colleges, or the system of education in the Dublin University so as to extend its advantages to the whole country. It seemed likely that the Government

  1447
  would force the Irish people to retrograde from the position they had already won.
  THE O'DONOGHUEsaid, that having called attention to the state of University education in Ireland in 1865, he wished to offer a few observations on the present occasion. Upon many points he agreed with the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland. There was much uncertainty as to what would be the ultimate fate of the supplemental Charter of last year, and there was some ground for dispute as to what was the precise cause which brought it into operation. Upon two subjects they were all agreed—first, that the supplementary Charter was intended to settle the question of University education in Ireland; next, that it had failed to do so. It was undoubtedly well meant, and was brought forward in a spirit of great liberality, but it had satisfied few persons. The Presbyterians of Ireland had rejected it; the Established Church were inclined to take the same view. The Roman Catholics, but for whom it would not have had any existence, only availed themselves of its provisions as a temporary arrangement. It failed to confer on them those lights to which they were entitled, and which they hoped to acquire. The aim of English modern education had been directed to the object of enabling the members of different religious denominations to meet and derive secular instruction from the same common source. This might do very well for those who liked it; but it did not follow that everybody did like it, and it was not consistent with a true spirit of liberality to enforce its acceptance on those who did not approve of it. To ensure its successful working, there should be complete harmony between the members of different religious denominations with respect to all matters connected with its administration. Where secular sectarian animosities prevailed, such a system could not prosper, and it only intensified and perpetuated the evils it was designed to cure. The Protestants had in many places withdrawn from the National schools. The Roman Catholics of Ulster objected to these schools because they said the rule of separate instruction was violated. The Queen's Colleges had been condemned by the Roman Catholic Church for reasons which he, as a Roman Catholic, fully recognised. The wrangling about education in Ireland, during the last few years, and the bitterness it had engendered, ought to have satisfied Parliament that the mixed system
  1448
  was not suited to Ireland. The denominational system ought to have a fair trial. So far as primary education was concerned, the Roman Catholics had suited themselves in three out of four of the provinces. Public opinion in Ireland was against the mixed system. Every Roman Catholic gentleman sent his sons to a Roman Catholic school, and every Protestant did the same. The number of Roman Catholic youths, however, who had received a University education was very limited, owing to the fact that there was no University corresponding in its religious character to the intermediate schools. The youth who ran up to London from Durham or Somersetshire and took his degree at the London University could not be said to have received a University education in the ordinary sense. If the supplemental Charter became law an Irish lad might cram in the provinces and run up to Dublin and snatch a degree from the Queen's University, but no one would regard him as having received a University education. In 1865 he asked the Government to confer a Charter and a legal existence upon a Roman Catholic University. This he recommended, believing it would be doing justice in the case. It was the only way to secure a thorough settlement of the question, approved by an overwhelming majority of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. In election addresses he had noticed that promises to work for a Charter for a Roman Catholic University were very prominent. He had seen such promises in the addresses of hon. Members for the counties of Cork, Tipperary, and Kilkenny. He had never asked any Government to endow a Roman Catholic University as well as give it a Charter, because he believed that, as in former times, Oxford and Cambridge had been endowed, so would any Roman Catholic University in Ireland be endowed if the Government would but bestow upon it the dignity and position which a Charter would confer. The number of Roman Catholics who received University education, as compared with the number of Protestants, was small—conscience barred the way. Trinity College was exclusively Protestant; ascendancy in Church and State was its motto; it sent representative after representative to the House of Commons, pledged to be the spokesman of ascendancy so long as a shred of that wretched flag held together. He believed it would continue to do so. Colleges in which all sects met would be the scene of

  1449
  continual and violent strife, sustained by rival sympathies from without, until one of the contending parties would be obliged to give up the contention in despair. On what grounds, but because the applicants were Roman Catholics, could a Charter for a University be refused them? Without a Charter they could never hope for equality in education; equality was denied them in Trinity and the Queen's Colleges, and it was equality only that they asked for. He did not desire anything exclusively for Roman Catholics; they wished only to share the benefit which their fellow-countrymen of another sect enjoyed. It was intolerable that Government should refuse a Charter to a University to which Catholic parents could freely send their sons. He was still not without hope that Her Majesty's Government might settle this question to the satisfaction of the majority of the people of Ireland. In 1865 the question received considerable support from the right hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley). The question waited for a settlement satisfactory to the great majority of the people of Ireland. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed to him, as a member of a deputation, sentiments not unfavourable to the object advocated. He trusted that before the debate closed he should hear from the right hon. Gentleman an expression that the Government would speedily do something in the important matter of Irish education.
  MR. ACLANDsaid, that he had some years since stated that no plan of University education for Ireland would succeed which had not the support of the Roman Catholic Bishops. Everything that had occurred since had confirmed him in that opinion. The question was most important, as involving the whole relations between art education, instruction in science, and professional training. In medical education the English schools were in a state of chaos, which the heads were endeavouring to remedy with the aid of gentlemen from Ireland. Irishmen were much in advance of them in that respect. Hon. Members opposite ought to be told that this was a question which ought not to be left in abeyance, and that no Ministerial difficulties or legal obstacles ought to stand in the way of this question. It was for the interest of the Empire that Irishmen should have access without religious distinction to academical degrees. If the Government had nothing to offer but legal obstacles and could only tell them to go to the Loudon University, that was no
  1450
  answer to the claim. He did not know why they should be told to go there. They would have to pay far higher fees than they did at the Queen's University in Ireland, and were debarred from its honours. Nor was it any satisfaction to them to be told that there might possibly some day be Roman Catholic Universities in Ireland. That would be a great evil. The results had been very unsatisfactory in other parts of the United Kingdom by leading to a sort of underbidding for academical education, which would be injurious. What Roman Catholics required was access to academical degrees without religious distinction, not through colleges which gave them what they deemed a "godless education." When Sir Robert Peel introduced his scheme to the House they were in a different position to what they were at present. The year before Sir Robert Peel established the Queen's University, Sir James Graham had made a remarkable attempt to establish a system of factory education in this country upon Church of England principles. The whole body of Dissenters rose at once and said they would have none of it. Sir Robert Peel was therefore not prepared to establish Roman Catholic education in Ireland. Assisted by the great bulk of those who sat behind him, he founded the Queen's Colleges, but the state of things at present was entirely altered. They had now recognised in England, Roman Catholic, Wesleyan, Presbyterian, Episcopal Church of Scotland, and various other forms of education. They were no longer in a position to tell the Roman Catholics of Ireland that they should have either secular education or none at all. He understood more clearly than he ever did before the feelings of injustice his right hon. Friend (Mr. Chichester Fortescue) below him had so eloquently expressed, and the irritation with which fathers of families reflected upon the fact that their sons could not obtain a degree except under conditions repugnant to their consciences. The Government were bound to walk very warily in this matter. If they did not there would be such a claim for secular education in England that the Church of England would have great difficulty in holding her own. Irishmen were entitled to call upon the Government to grapple with this question. They wanted a National standard for professional attainments. They were able to meet Englishmen in the medical and legal professions, and were competent to rise to any

  1451
  standard which might be set up. They wanted a great University for Ireland upon National principles. As a Member of the Liberal party, he was aware that there were different opinions and schools of thought in that party. He wished to vindicate for English and Irish Liberals their rights; especially to guard against their being dragged into assenting to principles which some Liberals were apt to maintain, and which were both intolerant and tyrannical. They would not be forced to desert those who vindicated Church of England principles or the religious principles of any who entertained sincere convictions, or to assert the impossibility of holding those principles in thorough concurrence with Liberal feelings upon State matters. He thanked the House for the opportunity afforded to him of expressing his views upon this important subject.
  MR. LOWE: Whatever right, Sir, the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down may have to speak for the Liberal party on other questions, I most emphatically deny his right to address the House as their representative on this subject. After the turn this debate has taken it is quite time that some one should vindicate what used to be the Liberal idea of comprehensive and tolerant education. I should not have said a word on the subject had anyone risen with that view. But I have heard this evening one Gentleman after another expressing what I can regard as nothing less than the principles of intolerance against those of toleration of re-action against progress. No Minister of the Crown ever undertook or executed a nobler work than Sir Robert Peel when he, in the last year of his Administration, founded the Queen's Colleges. Those Colleges were something more than mere educational establishments. They had a political significance. The great and wise man who founded them meant them to be schools in which the Irish should not only acquire secular learning, but where they should also learn—a lesson, I am grieved to say, in which they have made but small progress—that persons of different religious persuasions might be brought up to live together in unity and peace. No one leading the debates of that time can fail to perceive that that was as much in the mind of Sir Robert Peel as anything else. But what has been the treatment that these Colleges have received to-night? The noble Lord the present Secretary for Ireland says that they have failed, and that failure he attributes to the united and
  1452
  secular character of their education. That is the language which the Secretary for Ireland holds in this House to-night. And what is the evidence of their failure? When those Colleges first came into existence they were placed under the ban of the Roman Catholic Church. A synod of the clergy was held to put them down. In pursuance of that synod and a papal rescript a University was established, founded by Roman Catholics in this country under the auspices of the Pope. The two horses were started fairly to run against each other. What has been the result? I have made it my duty to inquire into the proceedings of the Roman Catholic University. They are very difficult to get at. It is not easy to find out what are the studies, who are the tutors, or who are the professors. I have, however, learnt quite enough to show me that it has been a conspicuous failure. Those who know most about it may deny it if they can. But what has been the fate of those Colleges? Denounced by the Roman Catholic Church with all its terrors and all its thunders, opposed in every manner possible, denounced, too, by many well-meaning persons in this country as godless Colleges, they have gradually and steadily increased, and before the mischievous interference of the late Government they were attended by 837 students. When you remember that they possess hardly any endowments, and that Oxford, with all its endowment?, has only about 1,200 students; when, too, you remember the obstacles they have had to encounter, I am perfectly warranted in saying that they have proved successful. It was a success—a success, at least, in comparison with what had been accomplished by that University—in which a foreign Power had assumed authority to confer degrees and honours, the right to give which rested alone with the Sovereign of these realms. That is how matters stood just before the election of 1865. I do not know what are the numbers now, but I am aware that they have diminished, and that through the mischievous interference of the late Government. The tale has been told by the late Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Chichester Fortescue), but it has been so disfigured and so treated that I am sure House would not recognise the real truth. Let me tell the tale in a few words. In June, 1865, just before the election, the hon. Member for Tralee (The O'Donoghue) asked the Government whether they would grant a Charter to the Roman Catholic

  1453
  University. The Government refused, but offered to give the Queen's University power to confer degrees upon persons who had not been educated in the Queen's College. When the House met after the election, many Members were anxious to be informed what was to be done in pursuance of that promise. They received the most satisfactory assurance that no measures would be adopted without the fullest information being communicated to the House. I will not go over the story again. Is it not written in the pages of Hansard? Were we not informed that we should have the fullest opportunity of discussing the question? After that assurance, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Morpeth (the then Secretary of State for the Home Deportment, Sir George Grey) wrote a letter to the Lord Lieutenant, in which he said the Government, after taking legal advice, found it necessary to introduce a Bill in order to do what they desired. The then Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Chichester Forteseue), who was not a Cabinet Minister, afterwards brought in a Reform Bill for Ireland. Upon its introduction some ambiguous observations were made. We have since been told that this was sufficient notice; that the assurance of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer had been completely complied with; that the policy announced in the letter of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Morpeth (Sir George Grey) had been revoked, and that we ought then or never to have taken our objections. No one, however, who takes any interest in the question so understood it. So things went on to the end of the Session. On the 13th of June, six days before the Government resigned office, they obtained the Sign Manual to a Charter. That Charter was not sealed until the 25th of June, or six days after they had tendered their resignations. The House never heard a word about it. On the 27th, while they were merely holding office until their successors were appointed, they issued a warrant, by means of which they packed the Senate that was to accept the Charter. They added six Members to that Senate, all of them their own supporters, and four of them Roman Catholics. They were advised that the Charter must be received by that body, and they knew, as turned out to be the case, that if it was not packed the Charter would be refused. After the Charter was accepted, a suit was instituted before the Master of the Rolls on what appears to a non-legal mind to be a
  1454
  most reasonable ground—namely, that a body appointed to carry on the ordinary purposes of a corporation could not annul the corporation by accepting a different Charter. The Master of the Rolls dismissed the suit on the technical ground that the Attorney General ought to have been made a party, but intimated that his opinion inclined in favour of the petitioners. That is the treatment which the great measure of Sir Robert Peel has received from hon. Gentlemen who sit below rue. From the opposite side of the House we ore told that it has been a failure. On this side every concealment—what shall I say?—every legal chicane has been employed to destroy it, and that because the late Ministers dared not bring the matter fairly before the House. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that it should be brought before the House. The late Home Secretary wrote to the Lord Lieutenant that it must be brought before the House. It was not. Why was it not? Because the Government were initiating a policy with which they dared not face the House, and upon which they dared not stand a debate. It is all very well to say that this was done to please the Roman Catholic people of Ireland—the Roman Catholic laity; but we know very differently. We know that the Roman Catholic laity have never felt any objection to these institutions. They have been driven into antagonism by the coercion of spiritual terror. This is the state of things. The simple point taken now is that it is the height of bigotry and intolerance to offer to the Roman Catholic youth that they shall be educated upon precisely equal terms with the youth of any other denomination; that the Government are violating all liberal principles and all principles of fairness, because they say to the Roman Catholic youth of Ireland, "You shall receive the some secular education as the youth of all other denomination, and your religious principles shall be in no degree invaded or interfered with." This is called persecution and intolerance. I suppose it is not the height of intolerance for the Roman Catholic hierarchy to say that their religious opinions do not permit them to allow the children of Roman Catholic parents to be educated with those of persons of other denominations, or to receive secular instruction at their hands, because they differed from them in religion. The question now is, whether we are to give up, surrender, and abandon this noble idea of a united education for all classes in Ireland

  1455
  Are we to resign the best and perhaps the only hope we have left of welding into one harmonious whole opinion and feeling in that distracted country, of reconciling the difference among the people, and teaching Irishmen to regard each other with feelings of mutual charity, friendship, and regard? Are we deliberately to give up this noble conception. And for what? To expend the State funds in subsidizing denominational institutions, where each denomination should be put into the hands of its clergy, to be instructed in doctrines of bigotry, intolerance, and mutual animosity. That is the new creed of liberality. It may be said we ought to defer to Irish opinion, and that Irish opinion is Roman Catholic—that is the opinion of the hierarchy. But there is a limit to this spirit of concession. There is other liberality than giving over everything to persons who may command a majority. In regard to anything so sacred as popular education we have a duty to perform to the young men of Ireland—the duty of taking care that in expending the public money for the purposes of their education we expend it in the manner most favourable to their growing up, not merely with intellectual knowledge, but in peace, harmony, and concord with each other. This was the intention of Sir Robert Peel. This intention we are about to cast to the winds in the vain hope of conciliating the Roman Catholic hierarchy, of whom I wish to say nothing disrespectful, but whom we know to be bound by their creed and by the vows they have taken never to be contented as long as anything they desire with a view to the temporal and spiritual predominance of their faith and Church is withheld. Their creed is that education should be entirely in the hands of the clergy. Unless the State is prepared to surrender that point altogether—that point so manfully maintained for twenty years—they will never be satisfied. This is not a question of a little more or a little less. It is a question of maintaining mixed education or surrendering it absolutely into the hands of the clergy of different denominations in Ireland. It is said that the position of the question has changed in consequence of what has happened in England, because we have a denominational system of primary education in England. The case is not analogous. The denominational system of primary education in England is maintained mainly at the expense of the denominations. This system, in Ireland,
  1456
  is maintained mainly at the expense of the State. In England the State has assumed a secular position, and gives assistance to the communication of secular education. That is a, very different thing from saying that a system which is intended to teach people mutual charity and kindness is a failure—in order to establish the practice of keeping young people separate, and excluding them from that communion with each other in early life which is the greatest softener of religious animosities. If there is anything in the world worth making a stand for it is such a principle as this. I do hope that, although hon. Gentlemen below me have done everything to undermine and to destroy the system, and have packed the Senate of the University in order to bring it into accord with the feelings of the Roman Catholic hierarchy of Ireland, although the noble Lord has announced a failure where he ought to proclaim a success, I do hope there is enough of liberality in the House of Commons not to allow this noblest work of one of our greatest Ministers to be trampled under foot by bigotry and intolerance.
  MR. GLADSTONE: While the echoes of the cheers from the opposite Benches have hardly died away, I should, perhaps, take the opportunity of congratulating my right hon. Friend the Member for Calne (Mr. Lowe) upon his having at length succeeded in awakening some small portion, at least, of that enthusiasm which was so abundantly evoked last year by his speeches on Reform. ["Question!"] I beg the hon. Members to believe that I will soon and closely enough connect this matter with the question for which they so anxiously call. I venture, Sir, to observe, that as my right hon. Friend has reaped this year the harvest of the seed he sowed last year on the subject of Reform, so perhaps he may have to reap on a future occasion the harvest of the seed he is now sowing, with respect to education in Ireland.
  I must now, Sir, protest against the injustice of my right hon. Friend in the treatment he has bestowed on my hon. Friend the Member for Devonshire (Mr. Acland). He rebukes my hon. Friend for having undertaken to speak as the organ of the Liberal party. My hon. Friend claimed his right as an individual to speak for himself. He never arrogated to himself the function of speaking for the Liberal party. My right hon. Friend was not satisfied even with this injustice. He went on to another injustice yet more

  1457
  marked, and said my hon. Friend the Member for Devonshire had denounced the Queen's Colleges as the homes of godless education, My hon. Friend did nothing of the kind. He referred to that epithet as indicative of a sentiment that has actually prevailed among persons who have much influence and power with respect to this question, and who express the opinion of a large portion of the people of Ireland; but he did this without, in the slightest degree, appropriating the language to himself. I hope my right hon. Friend will correct the injustice he has done to my hon. Friend.
  And now, Sir, I turn to other matter. I am concerned that my right hon. Friend should have felt it his duty to be the first to give an angry and controversial aspect to this debate. I had hoped from all I had before heard, that we might have discussed the subject simply with reference to the grave interests which it involves; to the future of Ireland and the relations of that country to this country. I had hoped that the tone in which the discussion had begun would have continued to the end. I hope it may resume that pacific tone I will on that account take but the briefest notice of the attack of my right hon. Friend on the late Administration. The conduct of the late Administration with respect to this subject is a perfectly legitimate subject of question in this House. Let him move in that matter when he pleases. We shall be able and ready to meet him. But one thing let him not do. Let him not profess to show that the opinions and the interests of which he is the advocate have been put to prejudice through our conduct. If he does, I must remind him and the House that during last Session, after we had lost the advantages of power, while we were in those very places we now occupy, this subject was fully discussed. We—I myself — pointedly challenged my right hon. Friend, in terms the most distinct, to raise fairly in this House an issue upon those principles of which he says he is the enthusiastic apostle. No consequences had then flowed from our conduct, or misconduct, which could embarrass him. Ample time was given before the close of the Session. He did not choose then to accept that challenge. He did not choose to submit his doctrines to the judgment of the House, and now he comes down with the pretence, for I can call it nothing better, of representing that through us,
  1458
  forsooth, these doctrines and their advocates have been put to prejudice. Thus far, Sir, as to my right hon. Friend. I will follow him no further into the polemical part of the question. I now go to the merits of the case.
  If anything could induce me to question the wisdom of the policy of Sir Robert Peel in 1845 it would be the defence of that policy which I have heard from my right hon. Friend. But I do not impugn it; I have from the first supported it. I was not at that moment in office with Sir Robert Peel. I was an independent Member of the House. As an independent Member I cordially supported the Bill introduced by him for the foundation of the Queen's Colleges. I have never repented it. I really had thought my right hon. Friend was capable of stating, with some resemblance at any rate to fact, matters of history. But in the highly coloured rhetorical and exaggerated description he has given, I am at a loss to recognise the smallest relation to events that have occurred. Let us bring the matter to issue, and ask whether there is the slightest justice, or approach to justice, in the representation made by my right hon. Friend. It is needless to quote his words. If I use the strongest words my vocabulary can supply, my right hon. Friend will not disown them. He strained his own great resources of language to describe the violence of the course which the late Government pursued. Anybody who listened to him and knew nothing else would have supposed that we had first betrayed and then denounced the system of education pursued in the Queen's Colleges. If this were a matter of mere party contention, I should be tempted to contrast the description of sentiment, which Gentlemen opposite are so busy and so animated in cheering tonight, when Ireland is the subject of discussion, with the sentiments they cheered not less loudly on Wednesday last, when the question was what should be the system of education for England. But I pass on, and ask, is it true that we betrayed, or is it true that we denounced the Queen's Colleges? Is it true that we turned away from them the beneficence of Parliament to other objects? There is not a shadow of truth in any of those highly-coloured statements. I do not depart by one inch from the ground we have always held. I agree with him in that single sentence of his speech, that the object of the Queen's Colleges was not to give a mere secular

  1459
  education, but to give to Irishmen, irrespective of their creed, the benefit, by living within the precincts of the same college, of cultivating feelings of mutual friendship and goodwill, God grant that the Queen's Colleges may long prosper to fulfil that purpose! And are we not from year to year voting the money of the State for this same end? Is it not true that these Colleges are not only the recipients but the exclusive recipients of the bounty of the State? By our encouragement, down to this very hour the Colleges which my right hon. Friend says we denounced and abandoned are receiving the direct countenance and bounty of the State. The utmost that ever was urged by us in behalf of Colleges of a different description, which may be called of a denominational character is, that their students should not be put under civil disadvantages on account of the denominational character of these establishments. But when my right hon. Friend says—and I am quite sure he believes it—when he says that he is the hero and the apostle of tolerance—[Mr. LOWE: I never said so.] Well, Sir, if my right hon. Friend is prepared to admit that he is on this one occasion the champion of the grossest intolerance — ["No, no!"] — he denies having said he is the apostle of tolerance; I really want to know what he is the apostle of? [Mr. LOWE: Not an apostle.] My right hon. Friend disclaims apostleship. Upon that question I will not quarrel with my right hon. Friend. I will never call him an apostle again. At any rate, he claims to be here the champion, the advocate, the teacher—if not the apostle of tolerance. He appears here, he says, as the champion of the principles of tolerance against those principles of intolerance which he thinks were advocated by my hon. Friend the Member for Devonshire (Mr. Acland). What are those principles of tolerance? It is very important that we should know how we stand in the matter. The conduct of the late Government is perfectly open to question and challenge. I do not ask, either directly or by implication, any approval of what they have done, or any exemption from censure, if the House shall think fit to bestow it upon them. What I do ask is that we shall consider with care the public bearings of this question as it respects the people of Ireland, and the principles on which Ireland is to be governed. In Ireland we have two Universities. One of these is what is termed
  1460
  a denominational University, characterized, I believe, as far as its administrators are concerned, though I have no direct knowledge on the subject, but speaking from all I have learnt, characterized by a considerable degree of kindliness and tolerance. Still it is a University necessarily-associated with that particular form of religion to which the immense majority of the Irish people do not belong. Let us see at this point how true or untrue is the representation of my right hon. Friend as to the blessed state of impartiality and justice of the existing system in Ireland with which it was so impertinent in the late Government to interfere. There is one University, denominational in character, rich in the possession of large revenues, social influence, and tradition. There is another University, modern in its construction. How does it stand compared with that which we adopted as a model for a new University in England, strictly respecting the principles of English liberty. All who chose might found in connection with this last—I mean the University of London—a college and a system of education purely secular; as denominational, as narrow, as contracted, as they pleased. That was the last and authentic declaration of the mind of Parliament with respect to the modern character of a University for England. But is that the character of the Queen's University in Ireland? No, Sir, it was limited in the granting of degrees to students proceeding from the three Queen's Colleges. It was therefore a condition that no sectarian, no special religious education should be given. Now the late Government never intended to interfere with that principle, or to withdraw from the Colleges any portion of the aid and countenance of the State afforded in the shape of solid money. What has been attempted is to put an end to a condition of things in Ireland which is a scandal to our modern notions of toleration. A state of things in which we said to the Roman Catholics and Presbyterians of that country, "If you choose to educate your children in Ireland on the same principles as we educate our children in England—namely, the principle of sending them to Colleges in which their religious creed is taught—you shall be excluded from the civil privileges of having University degrees bestowed upon your children." But even that is not the statement of the whole case. The Colleges in which we in this country have

  1461
  this denominational system are endowed Colleges, in possession of great wealth and privileges, rich in fame and tradition. All we ask is that in Ireland the humble institutions founded by the Roman Catholics themselves for the education of Roman Catholic youth, or by Protestants similarly minded for Protestant youth, should be—not endowed out of the public purse, not sharers in the privileges of Dublin University — but should be simply not excluded from the power of sending the youth educated in them to be examined at the Queen's University for degrees in civil branches. Is not this reasonable? It really seems that, under the name of tolerance and liberality, civil disabilities are again to be inflicted for religious belief. The opinion which leads gentlemen to have their children educated in colleges where their religion is taught as part of the system of the colleges is a religious opinion. The withholding the privilege of a degree in medicine or law on account of taking such a course is the imposition of a civil penalty. Are these civil penalties to be inflicted, or are they not, on account of religions convictions? If this is to be the case, let not these disabilities be inflicted in Ireland alone. Let us go with equal hand through the whole of the country. Let my right hon. Friend the Member for Calne apply his mild and tolerant plan to Oxford and to Cambridge. If he were to propose to do so—and I do not doubt his readiness, for I admit his impartial consistency—I should like to see the change of countenance which would be exhibited by hon. Members opposite, and to notice how dumbness and deadness would succeed to their more than strenuous cheering. In the very same speech in which my right hon. Friend proposed to inflict penalties on the corpus vile of our Irish fellow-subjects, he uttered an obiter dictum against which I must protest. He said that the Roman Catholics were induced to send their children to the Roman Catholic University by the influence of spiritual terror.
  MR. LOWE: I said that prevented them from sending their children to the Queen's University.
  MR. GLADSTONE: That is exactly the same for the purpose of my remark. If it be so, I regret the circumstance as much as my right hon. Friend. I am as cordial and sincere a well-wisher to the Queen's Colleges as my right hon. Friend. I have undergone no change
  1462
  in my opinion since I first supported the proposal for their establishment, at a time when that proposal met with a formidable opposition. But now, if it be true that the laity of the Roman Catholic Church are under the coercion of spiritual terrors from their clergy, that is a great misfortune for them, and I deeply sympathize with them, Yet I earnestly protest against all attempts to relieve the Roman Catholic laity from the despotism, if such it be, of the Roman Catholic clergy, by Act of Parliament or by any proceeding of ours. That is an affair entirely for the Roman Catholics themselves. My right hon. Friend, in one of the highest flights of his rhetoric and imagination, said that I (Mr. Gladstone) had stated that the Queen's Colleges had failed.
  MR. LOWE: No; the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland said that.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I certainly see no evidence that they have failed. I should be sorry if they had failed. But there is a large portion of the people of Ireland whose wants they do not meet. Now, Sir, to conclude, when I began my observations by alluding to the course which my right hon. Friend has taken on another subject, I did so not from any idle desire—I say it from my heart—to taunt one who has earned the respect of the whole House during this Session and the last, by the uniform consistency with which, separating himself on conviction from his party, he has adhered to his opinions. But I fear in this instance, as in that, that the resistance to moderate demands will end in concessions to immoderate proposals. The Roman Catholics may hereafter plead for a direct recognition of their University, a subject upon which I give no opinion beyond what I have already—namely, that the multiplication of Universities is a great evil, and that the value and dignity of degrees depend much on the circumstances of the learned tribunals that confer them. At a future time, perhaps, the sacred bulwarks of Trinity College may be assailed; and those who stand here as their official defenders may, when the trumpet is sounded and the assault is delivered, not be found so ready in the work of defence as would be expected from their present language. They may then say, "Our objection to your measure was not that it was too large, but that it was too small. We could not stoop to your peddling proposal for merely admitting

  1463
  Roman Catholics and others to degrees in the Queen's University. But show us a comprehensive measure which will settle the question—show us a measure worthy of the genius and daring of great statesmen—show us a field where it will be worth while for such as we are to employ our hands, and then we are the men to do the work, and the work will be done."
  LORD NAASsaid, that he had not stated that the Queen's Colleges had failed. What he said was that they had failed to attract the confidence of a considerable portion of the people of Ireland.
  MR. PIMsaid, he hoped that the whole question would be taken up in the same large spirit in which the subject of Reform had been dealt with, and settled once for all.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
SUPPLY considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
(1.) £15,000, Burlington House, agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £20,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, towards the Expense of erecting a Building for the use of the University of London."
MR. LAYARDsaid, he would appeal to the noble Lord (Lord John Manners) to postpone the execution of the present design for the new buildings for the London University in the rear of Burlington House. A pledge was given last year that the plans should be submitted to the approval of the House before any decision was arrived at. The pledge had not been fulfilled. Some progress had been made with the building, until the noble Lord, upon his suggestion, had consented to order a temporary suspension of the works. He objected to both the plans that were in the Library. They had been drawn on the supposition that Burlington House would remain untouched, and that the London University was to be an entirely separate and distinct building. But that edifice was to be altered, and to be made part of a new group of buildings, the colonnade and screen now existing being about to be removed. It was now obviously
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desirable that the whole buildings should be raised in a uniform style. What had been done? Three different architects had been chosen for three portions of the work—Mr. Smirke to deal with Burlington House; Messrs. Banks and Parry for the buildings in front; Mr. Pennethorne for those in the rear. Messrs. Banks and Parry had proposed plans in harmony with Burlington House. Mr. Pennethorne proposed to do his part of the work in the Italian Gothic style. It was against this intention that he desired to protest. He was certain that no man of taste and no architect of experience would sanction it. He had no wish whatever to criticize Mr. Pennethorne's designs. He was well aware of that gentleman's abilities, and that he had been the architect of some successful buildings, such as the Museum of Practical Geology, in Jermyn Street. What he objected to was the anomaly of erecting such a structure in the Gothic Italian style at the rear of Burlington House, and thus introducing a different style of architecture into the same group of buildings. Ninety-nine men out of 100, if asked what should be the style of the new buildings, would say that it ought to be the same as that of Burlington House. Under these circumstances, he wished the noble Lord the First Commissioner of Works would see the expediency of suspending further action in the matter. Mr. Pennethorne might produce another plan which might be submitted to some eminent architect as a referee, and thus a design might be furnished which would be acceptable to the House, as well as an ornament to the metropolis. The Senate of the University of London, as well as the body of that institution, had passed resolutions against the present plans. He thought, therefore, he was justified in appealing to the noble Lord to see that they were revised. He moved his Amendment.
Amendment proposed,
To add, at the end of the Question, the words "provided that no part of such sum shall be applied to the erection of any building according to either of the designs now exhibited." — (Mr. Layard.)
LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he should be able to show the Committee that he had already in the main adopted the suggestions which the hon. Gentleman had thrown out. He held in his hand a document signed by eminent professional gentlemen—the Building Committee of the Royal Academy. It was signed by the President of the

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Royal Academy, Mr. Sidney Smirke, Mr. C. Landseer, Mr. E. Barry, Mr. Gilbert Scott, and others. It stated that the building of the London University and those of the Royal Academy would be perfectly isolated and distinct from each other, and that there would not be the slightest architectural or other connection between them. No body of gentlemen in London could give a more intelligent or authoritative opinion on the question raised by the hon. Member than the distinguished artists and architects named. It was impossible therefore to contend that there was the slightest architectural or other connection with the building about to be erected on what was called the north side of Burlington Gardens. It was really a street, and could be seen by nobody who was not in that or in Cork Street. As far as architectural connection was concerned, the only house with which the building would be in any such connection was the house of General Cavendish, who made no objection to the accepted design. The building had now risen to a height of nineteen feet, the contracts for it were let, £9,000 had been expended upon it, £6,000 more had been contracted for, and the materials were on the spot. Much delay had occurred from the pledge he had given before Easter that all the works prejudging the style should be suspended. What was now asked was that the House of Commons should, on no conceivable ground, incur an extra expenditure of at least £5,000, and retard the progress of these buildings three or four months. The hon. Member had referred to the London University, Everything had been done to accommodate that body, and meet all its practical requirements. When it was intended to proceed with the design the University authorities had been requested to send some one on their behalf to see it. Dr. Carpenter saw it. He expressed himself in favour of the design afterwards adopted. After the building had been commenced, was the House to say that because the University of London was interfering at that moment the works were to be stopped? He saw with regret that a person connected with that body had declared that it would be right for it to set about canvassing the Members of the House of Commons in order to bring about that result. The House, he thought, should be chary of giving way to demands of that kind. As long as they had a Minister who was responsible for their public buildings they could deal with him.
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If he sanctioned a bad building it was always open to them to condemn him; but if they allowed a body external to themselves to canvass Members of Parliament, and to call for the stoppage of works in progress, increased expenditure and delay would be incurred, and what would become of the responsibility of the Minister? If the London University was to exercise a right of deciding what the style of a building ought to be, how could they refuse the same concession to the other learned bodies whom they were going to accommodate? He hoped the House would refuse to divest itself of its proper power, and would reject the Amendment of the hon. Member.
MR. CARDWELLsaid, the Members of the Council of the University of London who sat in that House would be wanting in their duty if they did not ask the opinion of the House on that subject. Those designs had been placed in the Library to give hon. Members an opportunity of seeing them before they were executed. Now they were told that the works could not be interfered with because a large expenditure had already been incurred upon them. It was not treating the House fairly. The Council of the University only claimed that right to express an opinion and submit it to the House which belonged to every subject of the Queen. Dr. Carpenter had too much good sense to have expressed any judgment upon those designs on behalf of the University. The execution of either of the plans exhibited in the Library would be a great disfigurement to the metropolis. It would be the worst possible economy to allow the works to proceed. As to the proposed building being situated in a narrow street, the narrower the street was, and the fewer the persons were who saw it, the better.
MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, that some of the objections which had been put forward embodied grievances not of a practical character. It seemed to him to be a merely sentimental feeling, because there might have been one large building in Burlington Gardens, and instead of that there were two smaller buildings with different objects and different entrances, that therefore they should both be in one and the same style. Nobody without the wings of a dove could fly away and see the two separate fronts of two distinct buildings at one and the same time. To urge that the style of building in the vicinity should govern the style of the contemplated edifice was in effect to say that Burlington

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Arcade on one side and the Albany on the other should enter into the artist's calculations. As to his right hon. Friend's (the Member for the City of Oxford) observation that because the institution was novel, therefore, what was called mediæval architecture should not be adopted, he could only say that some antecedent style or other must be followed unless we invented an architecture of our own. Of this, indeed, there had recently been two examples, one at South Kensington and the other in Paris at the new Exhibition; but neither of them would, he imagined, be deemed satisfactory. As for his right hon. Friend's assertion that Gothic was not suited for a London University or College, he concluded that Classical was still less so, unless it could be shown that we had more affinity with the Pagan Greeks of the 4th century before, than with the Christian Englishmen of the 14th after Christ. Besides, to give an instance directly in point, if ever there were modern Colleges, in all senses those were the Queen's Colleges in Ireland, and yet every one of the three Queen's Colleges was built in Gothic. Mr. Pennethorne's design as it stood was not satisfactory, but it might be corrected upon the present lines. On the whole, as a compromise, he should recommend the adoption of that early form of architecture embodying traditions of the Gothic period, of which the School of San Rocco at Venice was an example. He hoped the Motion of his hon. Friend would be withdrawn on receipt of an assurance that the design would be re-cast, and that the decision would not be given with regard to that matter of correspondence of style which, as he had shown, had no foundation in fact.
MR. TITEsaid, that his original impression as to the mode of access to the buildings had been erroneous. No necessity existed for the two buildings being in the same style. The misfortune was that the design had not been exhibited at first, as was expected. If it had been it would have spared the waste of some money, and would have obviated all the difficulty which had arisen through the battle of the styles. He could not help regretting that Mr. Pennethorne had departed from the style of Somerset House and Burlington House, and taken a fancy to a new style, to which the general feeling of the House was opposed. Mr. Pennethorne, however, was an accomplished architect, and he believed that a month would enable him to finish
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an amended design, which might save at least £5,000 to the country.
MR. LOWEsaid, he hoped the noble Lord (Lord John Manners) would not adhere to his former decision. On the part of the Senate or Convocation of the London University, there was no wish to interfere with his undoubted authority. At the same time, with an unanimity which he had rarely witnessed, every one had disapproved the design. Excellent as the internal arrangements admittedly were, they were spoilt by a façade of which everybody was inclined to be ashamed. This was no frivolous or merely sentimental matter. Ideas as to the character of University teaching associated themselves with the outlines of the building in which they were lodged. His official acquaintance with South Kensington led him to believe that the department had suffered much in public estimation from the simple fact that the public eye connected it with the Brompton Boilers.
LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he had no objection to the suggestion of his hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. Beresford Hope) that a new design for the façade should, if possible, be procured. This would of course be after consultation with Mr. Pennetborne, on the understanding that so much of the building as was already completed should be allowed to remain. He objected to the removal of any portion already erected at great expense.
MR. LAYARDsaid, that anything which would involve an expenditure such as that just referred to by the noble Lord had been caused by those who had charge of the building. There had been a distinct understanding with the House last year. He could not concur with the suggestion of the noble Lord, that what had been done should remain.
MR. BENTINCKsaid, he concurred with the hon. Member for Southwark that there had been an understanding with the House. He thought that if the noble Lord consulted with his architect, be would find that the change could be made without much expense.
MR. LAYARDsaid, he must divide on his Amendment.
Question put, "That those words be there added."
The Committee divided:—Ayes 52; Noes 46: Majority 6.
On Question, that the Vote, as amended, be agreed to,
MR. AYRTONsaid, he would suggest that the Vote should be postponed.
LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he did not see any object to be attained by postponing it. He was prepared to act on the opinion expressed by the Committee.
MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he thought the Vote ought to be postponed.
THE CHAIRMANsaid, the question having been amended could not now be withdrawn. The Committee must either affirm or negative the Vote, or else report Progress.
MR. HUNTsaid, the better course would be to agree to the Vote with the Resolution now, and then the Resolution could be struck out in the Report after its object had been attained.
MR. POWELLsaid, that before the Vote was reported to the House, some time should intervene to allow the Government to bring some other plan before the House.
Words added.
Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
House resumed.
Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next.
Committee to sit again upon Monday next.
House adjourned at a quarter after Two o'clock, till Monday next.

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—First Report—Contagious Diseases (Animals); Office of Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. (No. 125.)
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Local Government Supplemental (No. 2) * (119); Intestates Widows and Children (120).
Second Reading—Offices and Oaths (100); Transubstantiation, &c. Declaration Abolition (101); Army Enlistment (112); County Courts Acts Amendment (108).
Committee—Policies of Insurance* (82); Statute Law Revision* (106).
Report—Contagious Diseases (Animals)* (122); Policies of Insurance* (82 & 126); Statute Law Revision* (106).
Third Reading—Criminal Law*(81).
Royal Assent—Customs and Inland Revenue [30 Vict. c. 23]; Fortifications (Porvision for Expenses) [30 Vict. c. 24]; National Debt [30 Vict. c. 26]; Habeas Corpus Suspension (Ireland) Act Continuance (No. 2) [30 Vict. c. 25]; Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act (1851) Amendment [30 Vict. c. 19]; Inclosure [30 Vict. c. 20]; Local Government Supplemental [30 Vict. c. 21]; Land Drainage Supplemental [30 Vict. 22.]

INTESTATES WIDOWS AND CHILDREN BILL.

  PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR presented a Bill for the purpose of enabling the widows and children of poor deceased persons who may die possessed of shares in co-operative companies and societies, or leaving small debts due, or other property, to obtain possession of such properties without going to the expense of taking out letters of administration. He proposed that those desiring to obtain what was due to their deceased relative, provided the value did not exceed £100, should make an affidavit before the Registrar of the County Court of the fact of the death of the husband or father, and upon that to obtain a certificate from the Registrar, which he proposed should serve all the purposes of letters of administration. He proposed also that the affidavit should not be made until a month after the death of the person originally possessed of the money sought for; and that if the Registrar should have reason to believe that the proceedings before him under the Bill had reference to property of a greater value than £100, then he would suspend the affidavit until he had ascertained the facts of the case.
  A Bill for the Relief of the Widows and Children of Intestates where the Personal Estate is of small Value—Was presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a. (No. 120.)

CASE OF THE "TORNADO."

  QUESTION.
  The Marquess of CLANRICARDEIn answer to The Marquess of CLANRICARDE,
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that he should in a very short time be able to lay before the House some papers relating to the case of the Tornado. At the present time it would not be proper to enter at length into the subject introduced by the noble Marquess; but he might say that the Spanish Government had, in the first instance, in answer to our inquiries whether a new trial would be granted, said that they could say nothing then, but would await the result of the appeal to the superior Court and abide by it, whatever it might be. We answered that it would rest entirely with the Spanish Government to say before what tribunal the case should be heard, but that we absolutely insisted upon the nullity of the former proceedings, and upon having a new trial at which the parties concerned might be heard. I am happy to say that we received from the Spanish Government an intimation that their superior Court had, upon consideration of the case, adjudged the proceedings null and void, upon the ground that the case should not have been treated judicially, but administratively; consequently, if a new trial were to take place, it must be before a different tribunal. In the meanwhile the Spanish Government had not refused a new trial. He believed it was the owners of the Tornado that had protested against a new trial, desiring that the case should be decided in their favour on technical grounds, and not according to its merits. On that point Her Majesty's Government did not think that they ought to support their claim. A new trial would, however, take place, and it was to be hoped that it would result in a satisfactory solution of the question.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) BILL.
(The Lord President.)
CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) BILL.

  REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE.
  Report from the Select Committee, made, and to be printed (No. 121): Bill reported, with Amendments, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on

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  Tuesday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 122.)
  LORD WALSINGHAMasked the noble Duke the President of the Council, Whether the statement made yesterday in the Common Council of London with respect to a fresh outbreak of the cattle plague in the metropolis was correct; and if that were so, whether the question was under the consideration of the Government of the slaughtering of foreign cattle at the ports of debarkation without exception. He believed the inconvenience of such a course would not equal the inconvenience arising from a general outbreak of the cattle disease?
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, it was quite correct that there had been some fresh cases of cattle plague in the metropolis. The number of cases which were reported for the week ending the 25th of May, was eighty-two. They were, however, confined to comparatively narrow localities in the neighbourhood of Islington. The promptest measures had been taken in conjunction with the Metropolitan Board of Works to counteract the spread of the disease. He might state that he immediately requested Sir John Thwaites, the Chairman of the Board of Works, to wait upon him, and in the course of a conversation with that gentleman, he impressed upon him the necessity of the Board taking immediate and active steps to enforce the powers conferred by law upon local authorities to stamp out the disease. He had since received a very satisfactory communication from Sir John Thwaites, stating that every power which the law conferred upon the Board would be put in force. Those powers had accordingly been put in force, and not only had every diseased animal been slaughtered, but others that had been in contact with them, though not themselves actually infected, were also killed to prevent the spread of the disease. He was glad to say that, owing to these decisive measures, not above two cases had been reported in the present week, as compared with eighty-two cases in the week previous—a result which, he believed, might be attributed solely to the excellent arrangements and vigorous action of the Metropolitan Board. With regard to the other matter to which his noble Friend had alluded, the slaughtering of all the cattle at the ports of their arrival, the question was already under consideration. It was one, however, which
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  involved grave interests, and which could not be decided without due consideration. He trusted, however, that the measures already adopted might prove successful in arresting the disease, and that it would not be necessary to resort to such an extreme remedy. Should, however, the necessity be found to exist, the question was one which the Government would deal with without shrinking.
  EARL GREYwas understood to urge the importance of promptitude in all these measures, and strongly advocated the policy of slaughtering all foreign cattle at the ports of arrival, instead of allowing those intended for London consumption to pass through the metropolis, spreading the disease during the journey. It was well known that the disease had originated and had been frequently re-introduced by the importation of foreign cattle.
  LORD PORTMANremarked that the question was not merely one of slaughtering cattle at certain fixed and appointed places. In the hot weather it was oftentimes a question whether the meat under such circumstances could be preserved, and whether a good deal of it would not, on reaching Loudon, be condemned as being unfit for food. The matter was one, therefore, which ought not to be dealt with hastily. The disease could not be brought into London unless the police regulations were neglected or evaded.
  THE DUKE OF CLEVELANDsaid, he could fully corroborate the opinion expressed by the noble Earl (Earl Grey), and that a general feeling now existed that vigorous measures—such as that of slaughtering foreign cattle at their ports of arrival, should be adopted to prevent the recurrence of these serious visitations.
  LORD REDESDALEbelieved it would be of great advantage if the Inspectors, in making their weekly Returns, stated not only the number of beasts infected and the result, but also the supposed cause of the disease. It would be easy enough to do this; and then the inhabitants of the neighbouring country or district would be able to take measures to prevent the same causes producing results so calamitous—a thing which they could not do under the present arrangements.

OFFICES AND OATHS BILL.
(The Earl of Kimberley.)
OFFICES AND OATHS BILL.

  (NO. 100.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that he had had no reason for believing that the Bill would be opposed until that morning, when he received a letter from a noble Friend of his, stating that it was his intention to move its rejection. His noble Friend (the Earl of Courtown) would excuse him for saying that it would have been more convenient if he had given notice of his intention in the ordinary manner by putting his Notice on the Votes of the House. It would in consequence be necessary that he should explain the provisions of the measure to their Lordships. The Bill had received very general support in the other House, where the second reading was carried by a majority of 195 against 92, and obtained the express sanction of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Chief Secretary for Ireland. The Bill was entirely in accordance with the principles which governed the Roman Catholic Emancipation Act, the object of which was to extend to all classes of Her Majesty's subjects the right of filling civil offices under the Crown, unless there was some special or strong reason for withholding that right in certain cases. Now the object of the present Bill was to remove the disability under which Roman Catholics laboured in regard to the Office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland. There were no special reasons for continuing this exclusion; and it could scarcely be maintained that Roman Catholics ought not to be eligible for this office on the ground that they were unfitted for judicial appointments, for all their Lordships must be aware that many Roman Catholics held high judicial offices in Ireland, and that one Roman Catholic filled a high judicial office in England. It happened at the present time that there were in Ireland no less than two out of the three Chief Justices and no less than seven out of nine of the puisne Judges who professed the Catholic faith; and no one could say that those learned persons discharged their duties in a manner inferior in impartiality, learning, or in any of those qualities which constituted a good Judge, to their distinguished Protestant brethren. There could be no sound objection to a Roman
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  Catholic filling the high office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland, so far as the judicial powers were concerned. The feeling against this exclusion was not a mere sentimental one, because it was undoubtedly a hardship to many eminent Roman Catholic barristers in Ireland that they should be debarred by law from aspiring to the highest prize in their profession. But it might be said that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland had to discharge other duties than those of a judicial character. Those other duties were either political or quasi-political, or have some special connection with matters of an ecclesiastical character. In Ireland the Lord Chancellor, like the Lord Chancellor in this country, appointed the magistrates of comities, but they were appointed almost invariably upon the recommendation of Lords Lieutenant of counties, and many Lords Lieutenant of counties were themselves Roman Catholics, and they might be so in every instance. Well, then, it might be said that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was a political officer, and to some extent he advised the Lord Lieutenant; but he was not aware that there were more intimate relations between the Lord Lieutenant and the Lord Chancellor than there were between the former and the Chief Secretary and the Attorney General, who might be Roman Catholics. Some persons might suppose that there was considerable Church patronage vested in the Irish Lord Chancellor; and he had heard it said that the late Sir Robert Peel, in drawing the Roman Catholic Emancipation Act, included the Lord Chancellor within the list of prohibitions, because he thought that that functionary had considerable Church patronage. But, as a matter of fact, the Irish Lord Chancellor had no Church patronage, except the appointment to a vicarage in Dublin, which he exercised jointly with the Archbishop of Dublin, the Master of the Rolls, and the three Chief Justices; and, as these gentlemen generally disagreed, the patronage reverted to the Archbishop of Dublin. It must be admitted that one duty of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland was of an ecclesiastical character, because in Ireland there was an appeal from the Ecclesiastical Courts to him, and it was his duty in such cases to issue a commission of delegates, and if that was not satisfactory, he might issue a commission of review; but, in point of fact, that function was rarely exercised. Lord Chancellor Brady, who held the

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  office for many years, said that he had only issued three commissions of delegates, two on very unimportant matters, and no commission of review had been issued in the last forty years. This exceptional circumstance would, however, be met by a clause in the Bill, which provided, that whenever the Lord Chancellor should be a Roman Catholic, this particular jurisdiction should be exercised by one of the Chief Justices or by one of the Judges in Chancery. He regretted that the Bill had been so far altered in the House of Commons that it no longer included the admission of Roman Catholics to the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; but the clause which referred to this matter had been objected to by the Government, and was struck out in Committee, but only by a majority of 3. He himself saw nothing whatever in the office of the Lord Lieutenant that rendered it unfit that it should be held by a Roman Catholic, and it was most singular that the objection should be raised, seeing that excepting the English Lord Chancellor every Member of the Government, including the very Secretary of State under whose authority the Lord Lieutenant was, might be a Roman Catholic, and as to the pageantry of the office it was difficult to find any valid reason why a Roman Catholic was not equally fit to hold levées and give balls at the Castle as a Protestant. More than three fourths of the population of Ireland were Roman Catholics, and why should not he who was placed at the head of them be a Roman Catholic also? As to the Church patronage of the Lord Lieutenant, the first Lord of the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and the Home Secretary, in reference to Scotland, exercised considerable Church patronage, and yet all three might be Roman Catholics. It was said that the Lord Lieutenant in an especial manner represented the Crown; but certainly he did not do so more than the Governor General of India and the Governor General of Canada, both of whom might be Roman Catholics. As, however, he did not wish to do anything to endanger the Bill he should not propose to re-insert the clause referring to the Lord Lieutenant, but if any other noble Lord should move the re-insertion in Committee he should support him. The next provision in the Bill was a very simple one. It removed a prohibition in the Emancipation Act against
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  Roman Catholic Judges and mayors from attending any place of worship other than those of the Established Church in their robes of office. Such a prohibition afforded no security to the Protestant Church, and he thought that its repeal would have the very best effect in Ireland, where it was very desirable that Roman Catholics should see men of their own faith serving the Queen and appearing with their insignia of office. Such a prohibition as that which existed, in his opinion, diminished the security of the Established Church by producing a feeling of degradation in the minds of the Roman Catholics. The prohibition was also absurd, because the general officer commanding the whole military force in Ireland if he was a Catholic might go to Church in his uniform; and the constabulary, who were to the Irish people the embodiment of authority, might be seen every Sunday going to Roman Catholic places of worship in their uniform. The last clause of the Bill repealed, in reference to Roman Catholics holding office in Ireland, the oath which was last year repealed in reference to Roman Catholic Members of Parliament. He believed that the Report of the Royal Commission, which would shortly be published, would recommend the abolition of oaths of this nature, and he therefore thought that he was entitled to ask their Lordships to read the Bill a second time, so far as this oath was concerned. The clause passed with the general concurrence of the other House; it would place all persons upon a similar footing, audit would interpose no obstacle to dealing hereafter with the general question of oaths if Parliament should think fit. He was willing to postpone going into Committee until after Whitsuntide if it was thought desirable that their Lordships should have time to consider the Report of the Royal Commission. There might be some who thought the passing of this Bill would diminish the securities of the Established Church. He could assure them that none of their Lordships were more anxious than he was to uphold the principles of the Reformation and the Church which embodied them, and any measure wisely taken with that object should have his support; but he thought that danger to the Church came more from within—from those who remained professed members of the Establishment but no longer held the principles of the Reformed faith—and that

  1375
  these petty restrictions gave no security whatever. He therefore asked their Lordships with confidence to abolish these shreds and remnants of civil disability which only served as a record of distrust of their Roman Catholic fellow subjects, a distrust which was perhaps natural at the time of the passing of the Roman Catholic Emancipation Act, but which their conduct during the last forty years showed to be entirely unmerited and unfounded.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  THE EARL OF COURTOWNrose to move that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. To his mind it was at all times advisable, when they were considering any Bill proposed to their Lordships, that they should consider, not only the provisions which were immediately before them, but also how far they extended in the way of general policy, and what the ultimate tendency of the measure would be. In the present instance this matter was not doubtful, for the Preamble set forth that "to promote religious equality" it was expedient to remove these disabilities. Religious equality might be very desirable, but it was necessary to consider its meaning in relation to the State, and if this Bill should pass this particular expression of "religious equality" would be quoted as a precedent. This very phrase showed, he believed, that the Bill had been suggested in the National Association of Ireland. He did not regret that these words "religious equality" had been inserted in the Bill, for it enabled him to show that this was part of a scheme for promoting religious equality generally. The noble Earl read a passage from The Tablet to show how wide was the meaning attached to religious equality by the writer in that paper, and calling on the Legislature to pass measures to establish equality between the Protestant and Roman Catholic Churches. He would ask their Lordships to bear in mind that this question of religious equality was a very serious one, and involved the principle, not only of equality of individuals as regards their religious belief, to which he is favourable, but also equality of religions as regards the State. No doubt if there were a separation of Church and State, all religions should be put upon the same footing as regarded the State; but this was a matter which was
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  dealt with differently in this country to what it was in any other, so far as he was aware. In America, for instance, no Church was recognised by the State, there being there complete religious liberty and equality, and in France there was complete religious equality but not religious liberty, it being illegal to publish a Papal bull without the authority of the State for doing so. In this country we have complete religious liberty, but as we have not social equality, so we have not religious equality, which is inconsistent with the existence of an Established Church. To him it appeared that the present Bill was defective. It provided for the exercise of the Lord Chancellor's functions in reference to ecclesiastical appeals, by saying that when that high officer should happen to be a Roman Catholic one of the Chief Justices who was a member of the English Church should hear the appeals. At present two out of the three Chief Justices were Roman Catholics; and what was to be done if all three, as well as the Chancellor, were Roman Catholics? The ecclesiastical jurisdiction would then have to take its chance; and probably, when the difficulty occurred, a Bill would have to to be passed to appoint some one else to exercise this particular jurisdiction. With respect to the clauses referring to persons in office attending places of worship in their official robes, he saw no reason why those clauses might not be inserted in the Transubstantiation, &c., Declaration Bill, the second reading of which the noble Earl intended to move that night.
  An Amendment moved to leave out ("now") and insert ("this Day Three Months.")—(The Earl of Courtown.)
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he must confess he had no apprehension that any injury would result to the Protestant Church from the passing of the Bill; but, at the same time, he felt himself to be personally under an obligation to state that he could not vote for it. He was a Member of that House and also a Member of the Government when the Bill called the Catholic Emancipation Bill was passed, and he recollected all the circumstances under which it was passed. He thought then, and he now thought, that without the security now referred to, and without the other securities contained in it, that Bill would not have obtained the sanction of their Lordships' House.

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  Such being his impression, he could not now vote for the removal of any one of the securities which that Bill contained; for he considered that Bill to have constituted a species of compact between the Parliament and the people. No doubt, after a period of years, it was perfectly open to Parliament to re-consider what was then done, and to alter the decision then come to; but it was not open to him so to act. He was bound to adhere to the compact to which he was a party, and he must vote against the present Bill.
  LORD LYVEDENsaid, he did not expect that any opposition would have been made to the present Bill, and the objection urged against it by the noble Earl was the same which had been taken over and over again against any alteration of the Catholic Emancipation Bill, and which applied equally to the alteration sanctioned in last Session and to the present proposal. As regards the enactment of a new oath, he thought that it might be advisable to omit that provision from the Bill, as the Commission on Oaths were about very shortly to present their Report, and it would be expedient to take some legislative steps founded on their recommendations. Of all oaths the oath of allegiance appeared to him to be the most useless, because all persons were liable to be punished for disloyalty, whether they had taken the oath of allegiance or not; and that oath had not that he knew of ever had a deterrent effect on any one inclined to commit treason. With regard to the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the provision which originally stood in the Bill was only omitted by a majority of 3 in the House of Commons. For himself he certainly thought that the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland might altogether be abolished. It was only the other day that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland informed a deputation that the capital sentence passed in the case of a Fenian prisoner should be carried into effect; and, nevertheless, an order to a different effect was afterwards sent from this country to Dublin. A Roman Catholic was excluded from holding that office, not by the voice or wish of the people of Ireland, but by the prejudices of the people of Scotland and England; but if the office of Lord Lieutenant was to be retained, it ought to be, perhaps, more than any other open to Roman Catholics; and if he met with any support from the
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  House, he would in Committee move to re-instate in the Bill the words which it originally contained in reference to the office of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. The prohibition against Roman Catholic functionaries going to their places of worship in their robes of office he regarded as perfectly ridiculous, and he trusted that their Lordships would not offer any objection to its abolition.
  THE EARL OF DERBYtrusted that the noble Earl who had moved the rejection of the Bill (the Earl of Courtown) would not persist in his Amendment. He must be permitted to say he thought that the present discussion would have been more satisfactorily conducted if every speaker had confined himself to what was in the Bill and had not extended his remarks to what was not in the Bill. The introduction of the question as to the removal of the disability to hold the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was entirely gratuitous, and was more likely to create opposition to the Bill than if the discussion were confined to the measure actually before the House; and then the noble Lord who had just spoken (Lord Lyveden) had gone a step further and said they ought to consider whether the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland might not be abolished altogether. The noble Earl who moved the rejection of the Bill referred to an expression in the Preamble relating to the promotion of religious equality among the subjects of Her Majesty, and said that religious equality would be placing the Roman Catholic Church on the same footing as the Protestant Church. That was a subject not comprehended within the provisions of the Bill; the words "promotion of religious equality" could only refer to what was in the Bill, and could not apply to what was not in the Bill. It was quite true that the Bill applied to England as well as to Ireland, inasmuch as, while it provided in the case of the latter that a Roman Catholic might hold the office of Lord Chancellor, it would have the effect of removing in both countries the necessity of taking certain oaths which were deemed to be no longer necessary, and placing in that respect all the subjects of Her Majesty upon precisely the same footing. He was, under these circumstances, greatly disinclined to discuss the Bill upon the merits of the single provision which related to the Lord Chancellorship of Ireland. So far as he was concerned, he could not say that he

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  regarded that provision as objectionable. There could, of course, be no doubt that if a Roman Catholic were to fill that office he would have very considerable political influence placed in his hands; but he (the Earl of Derby) was not aware that the spirit of our recent legislation went in the direction of denying to members of that persuasion their just influence and rights; though, of course, it was not desirable that they should exercise influence in religious matters involving the interests of the Protestant Establishment. The Bill, he might add, had came up from the House of Commons with very general approval. The provision which threw open the appointment of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had been rejected by a very large majority; and he should be sorry to see any attempt to re-introduce it in their Lordships' House, for it would be much better, he thought, that the measure should be taken as it stood. He was also of opinion that it would have been more convenient if the second reading had been postponed until after the receipt of the Report of the Oaths Commission; especially as he had every reason to believe that that Report would be laid before Parliament within a short time, and that it would be found to be very much in the spirit of the general provisions of the proposal of the noble Earl opposite. If the noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley) would accept the suggestion he had made, or if he would be content to take the second reading on the understanding that those noble Lords who voted for it would not be bound to all the provisions of the Bill, and would postpone going into Committee upon it till after Whitsuntide, perhaps the noble Earl behind him (the Earl of Courtown) would not persist in his opposition to the second reading of the Bill now. For his own part, under all the circumstances, he should be disposed to support the second reading.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYexpressed his readiness to take the second reading subject to those conditions.
  THE EARL OF BANDONobjected to the Bill, because it involved a direct departure from the compact which had been entered into in 1829. That Act would never have been allowed to pass had it not been for the assurance given by the Government that it would not in any way interfere with the revenues of the Irish Church. Roman Catholics were specially excluded from the office of Lord Chancellor,
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  because that officer was the keeper of the conscience of the Sovereign; but the Sovereign being Protestant, of course Roman Catholics could not conscientiously fulfil the duties of the office. He looked upon this concession as the thin end of the wedge, and was afraid that it would only lead to a further demand to open up the office of Lord Lieutenant to Roman Catholics. From 1829 up to 1859 no proposal of the same character as that under discussion had been submitted to Parliament, nor a single petition presented in its favour. The question, he added, had not been mooted since the latter period until the present Session, and the people of Ireland took very little interest in it indeed. Such was not, as might be expected, the case with the Roman Catholic clergy, who would never be satisfied with anything less than exclusive supremacy and the destruction of the Protestant religion.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that he had not the slightest objection to strike out the words in the Preamble of the Bill which had so much alarmed the noble Earl (the Earl of Courtown). He did not attach the slightest importance to them. The true meaning to be attached to them had been explained by the noble Earl at the head of the Government.
  THE EARL OF COURTOWNsaid, he would accept the suggestion of the noble Earl at the head of the Government, and withdraw his Amendment, stating that he would, on going into Committee, move the rejection of the words to which he objected.
  Amendment (by Leave of the House) withdrawn: Then the Original Motion was agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.

TRANSUBSTANTIATION, &c., DECLARATION ABOLITION BILL—(No. 101.)
(The Earl of Kimberley.)
TRANSUBSTANTIATION, &c., DECLARATION ABOLITION BILL—(No. 101.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that the Bill was brought in in the other House last Session, and had come up to their Lordships' House at so late a period that it was not then proceeded with. It proposed to abolish the declaration against transubstantiation, which he thought their

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  Lordships would be of opinion was one which it was not now reasonable or desh—able to retain. He would not then trouble their Lordships by reading the declaration in question, although to do so would perhaps be better than the strongest argument which he could use in favour of the second reading of this Bill; but the declaration asserted that particular doctrines and practices of the Church of Rome were superstitious and idolatrous. He had himself been called upon to make that declaration before the Irish Privy Council in the presence of a large number of persons of the Roman Catholic faith, and he must say he had never in his life made a declaration with more pain than when he was required, before men holding high office, and for whom he had the greatest respect, to declare the tenets of their religion to be superstitious and idolatrous. Being a sincere Protestant himself he, of course, had no personal difficulty in expressing his agreement with what was intended as one of the Articles of the Reformed Church; but he thought that such a declaration, under the circumstances which he had stated, was both offensive and unnecessary, and ought to be done away with. The Bill therefore proposed that that declaration should be dispensed with in future; but its provisions expressly guarded against the supposition that it was meant to remove the exclusion of persons from certain offices because they were Roman Catholics. He had a strong confidence that this proposal to repeal a declaration which was offensive to a portion of Her Majesty's loyal subjects, would not meet with any opposition from their Lordships; and he begged, in conclusion, to move that the Bill be now read the second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATHprotested against the Bill being now read the second time. There was precisely the same reason for not proceeding with this Bill as existed with reference to the preceding—namely, that they ought to wait for the Report of the Oaths Commissioners. He maintained that the declaration which it was proposed to abolish was the basis of the Protestant faith in this country, and also one of the greatest securities of the Throne of Her Majesty; and he earnestly implored their Lordships not to have any hand in the crime of attempting to tamper
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  with that declaration on the ground of expediency.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he believed that the declaration in question had not only been referred to the Oaths Commission, but that their Report would contain, a paragraph relating to it; and he suggested that with regard to this Bill the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Kimberley) would adopt the same course as he had done with respect to the previous one—namely, that the second reading should be taken sub silentio, and that it should be open to any noble Lord who thought fit to oppose it to do so on going into Committee, by which time they would probably have seen the Report of the Commissioners.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he was willing to accept this suggestion.
  On Question, agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.

ARMY ENLISTMENT BILL.—(No. 112.)
(The Earl of Longford.)
ARMY ENLISTMENT BILL.—(No. 112.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Pay for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORD, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, it proposed to repeal two former Acts relating to enlistment for the army, and also to substitute a uniform term of enlistment for soldiers in all branches of the army for the three different terms now applicable to the cavalry, the infantry, and the artillery respectively. After the passing of the Army Service Act of 1847, it was arranged—upon what principle he was not quite certain—that soldiers for the cavalry should be enlisted for twenty-four years, in two periods of twelve years each; soldiers for the artillery for twenty-one years, in periods of twelve and nine years respectively; and soldiers for the infantry for twenty-one years, in two periods of ten and eleven years. There seemed to be no reason for maintaining those distinctions; and when the Recruiting Commission examined the subject they came to the conclusion that it would be advisable to adopt the term now in force for the artillery—namely, a term of twenty-one years divided into two periods of twelve and nine years—as the uniform scale to be applied to all branches of the service; and that was the term adopted in this measure. The second clause of the Bill gave facilities, which were not enjoyed before, to soldiers who before the completion of

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  their first term were disposed to renew their engagement. The last clause conferred a new power upon the military authorities to enlist for general service recruits who had declared no preference for any particular regiment at the time when they came forward to enlist:—within twelve months the Commander-in-Chief would post such a recruit to some regiment, to which he would remain attached in the same manner as if he had originally enlisted for that regiment. There were two other Bills before the House of Commons referring to military subjects, which would be pressed forward whenever the state of public business would permit.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Longford.)
  EARL GREYsaid, he thought the proposed alteration totally unnecessary, and that the change it made was in the wrong direction. They must not look at the Bill as an isolated proposal, but must view it in connection with the whole question of general policy with reference to the army. In another measure now before the other House—the Army Reserve Bill—the Government had introduced a clause enacting that a militiaman who had deserted might be sentenced by a court martial to serve in the regular army for twelve years. The mere fact of such a clause having been proposed showed how utterly inconsiderate and inconsistent the whole policy of the Government had been with reference to the discipline of the army. Such a provision was contrary to every sound principle which should regulate such matters. The Bill was a retrograde step from a sound policy in vogue twenty years ago.
  VISCOUNT MELVILLEsaid, he thought the clause referred to by the noble Earl would be fatal to the prosperity of any regiment. It was necessary, in his opinion, to have one uniform system of enlistment throughout the army, and not different periods of enlistment for different sections; but the great evil oppressing the army was the faulty system of reliefs.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, in reference to the unfortunate clause spoken of, that it had been taken from the old Militia Act, which had been in force, although not acted upon, during all the time that the noble Earl who now objected to it had been in office. He believed it was unfortunately true that under the present
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  establishment of our regiments, it was impossible in all cases to provide for the regular relief of troops in foreign service.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

COUNTY COURTS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 108)
(The Lord Chancellor.)
COUNTY COURTS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 108)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the second reading of a Bill to amend the Acts relating to the jurisdiction of the County Courts, said, that the first object of the Bill was to enable actions to be brought in the Court of the districts where the causes of action wholly, or in part, arose. At present the action must be brought in the Court of the district where the cause of action wholly arose. Thus, if goods were delivered to a railway company to be sent to York and were damaged in transit, the party at York would have to sue the company in London, because the company were supposed to reside wherever their chief office was; but by this Bill the action could be entered in the Court at York, where the cause of action in part arose. At present in the Superior Courts, where an action was allowed to go by default, the plaintiff could sign judgment in eight days and issue execution eight days afterwards. In the County Courts no such facilities existed. By the 2nd clause of this Bill, if the defendant did not within six days of the return day of the summons give notice in writing to the registrar of his intention to defend the action, the plaintiff would be entitled to enter up judgment. By the 3rd clause, actions commenced in any metropolitan County Court might be continued in any other of the metropolitan Courts, if the defendant resided or carried on business within the district of any such Court. By Clause 4 it was provided that no action should be brought to recover debts for any ale, porter, beer, cider, or perry consumed on the premises. The 5th clause provided that when, in any action of contract brought or commenced in any of the Superior Courts, where the amount of the claim did not exceed £50, the defendant might within eight days after service of the writ take out a summons before a Judge at Chambers, calling on the plaintiff to

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  show cause why the action should not be tried in a County Court, and the Judge might, unless cause was shown, order the cause to be so tried. At present the Superior Courts had concurrent jurisdiction with the County Courts when the plaintiff resided more than twenty miles away from the defendant, or from the place where the cause of action arose. It had been determined that this applied to cases where one of several plaintiffs lived twenty miles off, although the firm might live next door to the defendant. It had also been held that a railway dwelt where the principal office was. A learned Judge had informed him that a Leeds case was recently tried before him, in which the claim was £19, and because the parties lived twenty miles apart the action was brought in the Superior Courts, and seven witnesses were brought tip all the way from Leeds to Westminster Hall. The cause of the evil was that the attorneys always went to the Superior Courts whenever it was possible, of course to the great increase of expense. The object of the clause was to provide a remedy and to enforce the use of the County Courts in such cases. He proposed to give jurisdiction to the County Courts in cases of ejectment, where the annual value of the property did not exceed £20, and also cases when title came in question, where neither the value nor rent of the property exceed £20 a year. But in these cases an appeal was to be allowed. The 17th clause was intended to extend the operation of the 10 & 11 of the Queen, c. 96, "The Trustees' Relief Act." It enabled trustees, where the value of the trust estate did not exceed £500, to deposit the money with the registrar of the County Court where they, or some of them, reside. The 21st section extinguished a number of petty Courts which at present had jurisdiction in matters of debt. It enacted that henceforth no action that could be brought in a County Court should be brought in the Court of any hundred manor, wapentake, or other inferior Court; and it placed the recovery of loans by loan societies in the County Court instead of before justices.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  LORD CRANWORTH, in expressing his approval of the measure, referred to some observations made the other evening by his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, which the learned Judges on
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  the Northern Circuit had interpreted as reflecting upon their ability and industry in the administration of justice. It was perfectly true that out of seventy-tight causes put down for trial on that circuit, only fifty-seven had been tried; but practically the whole of them were disposed of, because, as their Lordships well knew, many causes were in the course of an assize withdrawn, or otherwise disposed of, without coming before the Judge at all. He had promised to refer to this matter on the first opportunity, and he had accordingly mentioned it in order to enable his noble and learned Friend to remove an impression which he felt certain had never been intended.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he would be sorry to have it imagined that he intended to cast the slightest reflection on the ability or industry of the learned Judges who had presided over the Northern Circuit. Indeed, he had expressly taken care to guard against such an interpretation by stating most explicitly that the amount of business had rendered it absolutely impossible that the learned Judges could dispose of the whole of the causes without assistance. He must, however, mention, in self-defence, that one of the Queen's Counsel on the circuit, in a letter to a friend, referred to the constant demands which were made for his assistance in disposing of the civil business. Though, of course, those gentlemen were always willing to give this assistance in times of emergency, a constant practice of this kind could not but be regarded as entailing an unreasonable tax upon the time of advocates, who had their own professional duties to attend to.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.