Sitting of 1 April 1867

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN—Right Hon. Hedges Eyre Chatterton, for the College of the Holy Trinity in Dublin.
SUPPLY—Considered in Committee—NAVY ESTIMATES—Resolutions [March 20] reported.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Canada Railway Loan [90]; Public Libraries (Scotland) Acts Amendment* [92].
Committee—Mutiny.
Report—Mutiny.
Third Reading—Sugar Duties* [37], and passed

BANNS OF MATRIMONY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. MONKsaid, he wished to ask Mr. Attorney General, Whether he considers the doubts which have arisen as to the legal time for the publication of Banns of Matrimony in churches during morning service to be well founded; and, if so, whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a measure during the present Session for removing those doubts, for legalizing Marriages knowingly solemnized without due publication of Banns, and for relieving clergymen who may have celebrated such Marriages from the serious penalties they have incurred under the Act 4 Geo. IV. c. 76?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: I do not, Sir, myself entertain any doubt as to the proper time for the publication of banns; but different opinions are held on

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  the subject by gentlemen well entitled to express an opinion. In point of fact, it is well known that marriages have been solemnized at both the times in question. The subject is undoubtedly one of very great importance, and the Government are considering whether it may not be possible to bring in a Bill this Session to remove the doubts and to remedy the consequences of those doubts.

  KINGSTON ASSIZES.—QUESTION.
  MR. GILPINsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been called to a trial at the Kingston Assizes, where two men, Burton, aged twenty-three, and Hay, aged twenty-nine, were indicted for burglary, before Mr. Baron Bramwell, and sentenced to seven and ten years' penal servitude respectively; to the fact that the convicts were violent and abusive on receiving their sentence, and, having been removed from the bar by the police, were ordered to be brought back by the Judge, who thereupon sentenced them each to a further term of five years' penal servitude?
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, in reply, that his attention had not been called to the circumstance until after the hon. Member had given Notice of his Question; and as no official communication had been made to him on the subject, he was unable to make any statement on the subject at the present moment.
  MR. GILPINsaid, he would repeat the Question on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply.

  FLOGGING IN TEE ARMY.—QUESTION.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether, when he lately gave notice to the House that he intended to disregard the recent Resolution of a majority of the House in favour of the abolition of corporal punishmentin the Army, and to introduce the usual Clause on that subject in the Mutiny Bill, as if no such Resolution had been carried, he had consulted His Royal Highness the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief on the subject, and had the approval of his Royal Highness in making that announcement?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: Sir, I must, in the first place, take exception to the terms of the Question of my hon. Friend. I cannot admit that I ever gave
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  notice to this House that I intended to disregard the recent Resolution which it came to on this subject. I merely intimated to the House my opinion that, under all the circumstances of that majority, I thought it was desirable that the extent of that Resolution should be re-considered; but I think I have given abundant evidence to the House that I did not intend to disregard that Resolution. In answer to the Question of my hon. Friend, I have only to say that, in accordance with the Constitution of the War Department, the Communications between the Commander-in-Chief and the Secretary of State for War are very frequent. The Secretary of State, however, is responsible for the Administration of the War Department. He is responsible for what he says or does in his official capacity in this House; and I cannot think that the House will expect or desire that the Secretary of State should be called upon to state the times, circumstances, and subjects of those consultations with the Commander-in-Chief, which are almost of daily occurrence.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITH: I wish to know, whether the right hon. Gentleman declines to answer my Question? ["Order, order!"]

CASE OF JOHN TOOMER.

  QUESTION.
  SIR ROBERT COLLIERsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he has any objection to lay upon the table of the House a Copy of the Judge's or short-hand writer's notes of the evidence on the trial of John Toomer, who was convicted of rape and sentenced to fifteen years' penal servitude at the last Summer Assizes for Reading; and, of all Memorials and Correspondence relating to the case?
  MR. WALPOLE: Sir, I regret very much that for reasons which I will briefly advert to I do not think that I am at liberty to lay the papers to which the hon. and learned Gentleman refers upon the table of the House. Those papers are of a peculiarly private and confidential character, and contain matters affecting the character and conduct of third parties, and unless an opportunity were given to those parties to explain such observations as might be made about them, it would be a great injustice to them to make the papers public. Moreover, there is no precedent for the production of such papers, and to establish one

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  will virtually be an interference with the prerogative of the Crown, and will make the House a Court of Appeal in criminal cases. Any one, I think, who considers the subject, will agree with me that it would be hardly competent for me to produce the papers asked for. At the same time, I may say that the facts of this case do not appear to me to have been sufficiently well understood—nay, in some respects appear to have been much misrepresented—if not perverted. Although, therefore, I cannot consent to lay the papers upon the table, because it would introduce a precedent which would be very inconvenient were it to be followed, yet I wish it to be understood that any explanations which I have to offer, or any requirements which may be made of me with reference to any conduct that I have pursued upon the matter, are perfectly legitimate subjects of inquiry, and I am perfectly willing to offer such explanations as may be required. Having said this much, I shall now, Sir, with the permission of the House, venture to state what really has taken place in regard to this matter so far as I myself am concerned. Toomer was tried for rape in July last. An application was made to me a few weeks afterwards on his behalf. Toomer himself signed a petition, in which he stated his own view of the case; said that the prosecutrix had been living with him on familiar terms; that he was entirely innocent of the crime, and asking that further inquiry might take place with the view of granting him a free pardon. That Memorial was accompanied by other documents, and I, in accordance with the course which I always take upon such occasions, referred the Memorial and the other documents to the Judge who presided at the trial. The learned Judge subsequently forwarded to me the notes of evidence and also his own opinion upon the case. From those notes two things were clear—first, that whether Toomer was innocent or guilty of the crime, it was perfectly clear that the statement which he made in his Memorial was not only unfortified but was totally at variance with the evidence; and secondly, the whole matter apparently turned upon the credibility of the different witnesses. If the prosecutrix was to be believed, then the verdict of guilty could be sustained. If, on the other hand, the two female witnesses were to be believed, then Toomer was certainly not guilty. The matter, therefore, resolved itself into a question
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  of credibility, as any one will see who takes the trouble to go through the evidence. The jury found the prisoner guilty, but recommended him to mercy. On being asked what was the meaning of their recommendation, they stated that there were extenuating circumstances; and on being again asked what they meant by that, they said that the prosecutrix had been indiscreet. The jury, however, did not appear to have any doubt that the crime was proved against Toomer, and the learned Judge was certainly of that opinion, as also were many of those who were present at the time of the trial. The application which was made to me was for a free pardon; but the House will see that I could not have recommended a pardon to be granted without deliberately deciding that the prosecutrix was guilty of perjury, and that the two maid servants ought to have been believed and not disbelieved as they had been by the jury. This was a case rather coming within the peculiar province of a jury, as it was a question involving the determination of facts. It was a case relating to the credibility of evidence, which could not be tried by me or any other tribunal, excepting in one way, and that was to allow Toomer to prosecute for perjury the person who had accused him, and upon whose evidence he had been convicted. A letter was accordingly written from the Home Office, giving no opinion upon the merits of the case, but intimating to Toomer that he would be at liberty to prosecute Miss Partridge for perjury. Had such a course been adopted, and had such an indictment been sustained, there can be no doubt that the innocence of Toomey might have been established. But objections have been stated against the recommendation of prosecuting the woman who gained the case for perjury. The first was that a conviction for perjury could not be obtained except upon the testimony of two witnesses, and the second was, that as Toomer was a felon he had forfeited his property to the Crown, and would have no means of trying the case. In answer to the first point, I may say that there were two witnesses—namely, the servants—and I am told it is perfectly clear that if these two servants could have corroborated the evidence of Toomer as to what took place on the Sunday night, and there was no reason to doubt them, that a verdict would have been obtained in favour of Toomer. With regard to the second point, I may state that I made inquiry and

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  found that the property forfeited to the Crown was only a very limited proportion, Toomer having previous to his trial conveyed a very considerable amount of property to his father. Both objections, therefore, were such as could not be sustained. The prosecution took place last autumn, and from that time to this I have received no application whatever upon the subject, Since the meeting of Parliament, I have been asked by hon. Members whether the sentence of fifteen years' penal servitude ought to be allowed to stand. My answer is that that point has never been brought before me in any way. Had any memorial been presented upon the subject, it would have been considered, or if any deputation had waited upon me it would have been received, and their representations would have received due consideration.
  SIR ROBERT COLLIER: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether Papers, such as those I have just asked for, were not laid before the House in the case of Jessie M'Laughlan?
  MR. WALPOLE: Yes; but the case of Jessie M'Laughlan was a very peculiar case. In that case there was this important difference, that the question of the guilt or innocent of a third party (Mr. Fleming) was involved. If the papers are granted in the present instance similar papers cannot be refused in any other, and the appeal in criminal cases will virtually be transferred to this House.

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.—QUESTION.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he wished to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to make any alteration in the arrangement or the provisions of the Bill for amending the Representation of the People before inviting the House to discuss the Clauses in Committee; and, whether he is willing to lay upon the table the Reports or other documents from which he quoted on Tuesday the opinions of the present and late Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue respecting the proposed taxing franchise?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, it is not my intention to lay on the table the communications from which I read freely, and without reserve to the House, the other night, but which were strictly of an informal character. I
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  shall therefore not place them on the table. With regard to the other and more important Question put by the right hon. Gentleman, I beg to state that to-night I shall put on the Paper a Notice that in Committee of the Whole House on the Representation of the People Bill I shall move the omission of Clause 7—that is, the clause which proposes to give a second vote, in respect of which I act according to the statement I made to the House the other evening. With regard to all other controverted points, I beg to state that I think the House in Committee will be able to find the best solution, and that we shall enter into that Committee with the most anxious desire, in co-operation with the House, to bring the subject of Parliamentary Reform to a speedy and satisfactory conclusion.
  VISCOUNT CRANBOURNE: With reference, Sir, to the answer just delivered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I beg to ask my noble Friend the Member for King's Lynn, who on a previous night said the Government would introduce a Bill by which they would stand or fall, what are the provisions of that Bill by which the Government will stand or fall?
  LORD STANLEY: That, Sir, is rather matter for argument and discussion than for a Question; and when our debates on that subject are resumed, I shall be quite ready to answer any observations my noble Friend likes to make.

UTILIZATION OF SEWAGE ACT.

  QUESTION.
  SIR JOHN SIMEONsaid, he wished to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, Whether, looking to the doubts that exist as to parishes, any part of which may be under the Local Government Act (1858), being able to avail themselves either of the Utilization of Sewage Act (1865) or of the Sanitary Act (1866), the Government is prepared to amend the Law so as to enable parishes so circumstanced to bring themselves under the operation of those Acts?
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, in reply that the object of the Sewage Utilization Act was to extend the powers and benefits of the Local Government Act to rural parishes. The reason why a parish, any part of which may be under the Local Government Act, is unable to avail itself of the Sewage Utilization Act, or of the first part of the Sanitary Act of 1866, was

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  the difficulty of avoiding contemporaneous jurisdictions and two systems of rating over the same area. Taking the case of Enfield, for example, That town was situated in a large agricultural parish, twenty miles in diameter. Farmers twenty miles off objected to be rated for the sewerage of that town. Enfield, therefore, put itself under the Local Government Act and rated itself and severed the town. Now, it would be manifestly unfair that the whole parish should come under the Sewage Utilization Act, and erect a second jurisdiction over Enfield, and subject the town to two rates merely for the benefit of the rural part of the parish. The only way in which the rural part could obtain these advantages, as it seemed to him, would be to extend the boundaries of the town, and therefore of the operation of the Local Government Act also, over the whole parish. But here, again, the rating difficulty would stand in the way. This point, however, and other amendments in the Sanitary Act, were under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government; but he could not say what they might see fit to carry out during the present Session.

GRAND DUCHY OF LUXEMBOURG.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SANDFORDsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he has received any information of the sale of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg to the Emperor of the French?
  LORD STANLEY:Sir in the course of this morning I received from the Hague a despatch containing a translation of a notice which appeared in the official organ of the Government of Holland. It is to this effect:—"We are requested by the Luxembourg Chancellerie to contradict most positively the report that a cession of the Grand Duchy has taken place." I apprehend there can be no doubt that communications have passed between the Governments of France and of Holland with reference to the possible transfer of that territory; but as to the result of those communications, I am not in a position to give any information to the House, not knowing what has happened.

  BANKRUPTCY BILL.—QUESTION.
  MR. NORWOODsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Attorney General, Whether he
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  will postpone until after Easter the Second Reading of the Bankruptcy Bill, in order that Commercial Associations in the provinces may have an opportunity for the due consideration of its provisions?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, in reply, said, he should regret if the commercial bodies interested in such a Bill had not the fullest opportunity of considering its provisions; but if an opportunity between this and Easter arose for taking the second reading of the Bill, he thought that if he did not avail himself of it it would be equivalent to an abandonment of the measure. There would be abundant opportunities of considering any point that might arise, and he hoped the hon. Member would not object to the second reading should it come on before Easter.

  ARMY—THE WAR OFFICE.—QUESTION.
  MR. O'BEIRNEsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether any application has been made by the Secretary of State for War to the Lords of the Treasury, founded on a memorial from the permanent staff of the War Office, and recommended by the heads of departments and the Under Secretaries of State, for the payment of the salaries monthly instead of quarterly in the War Department; and, if such an application has been made, whether he intends to give orders that it shall be complied with?
  MR. HUNTsaid, in reply, that such an application had been made by the War Office tins year. Applications had also been made in previous years to a similar effect. But as it would be impossible to give that privilege to the War Office without extending it to the other branches of the Civil Service, which would involve an increase in the establishment of the Pay Office, the applications had been refused. At the same time, he might state that the clerks in the War Office whose salary was under £100 per annum were enabled to draw their pay half-quarterly.

CESSION OF RUSSIAN AMERICA TO THE UNITED STATES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. WATKINsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If he has received any official corroboration of the statement in The Times of that day relative to the cession of the whole of Russian America and the adjacent islands to the United States?
  LORD STANLEY: When I left the Foreign Office, Sir, a quarter of an hour ago no despatch had been received from our Minister at Washington, either confirming or contradicting the rumour. I telegraphed this morning to St. Petersburg for information upon the subject, but sufficient time has not elapsed for me to receive an answer.
  MR. LAYARDsaid, he wished to know, whether any information has reached the Government of any negotiations between Russia and the United States, with reference to this alleged cession of territory?
  LORD STANLEY: No such information has reached the Government.

IRELAND—THE TYRONE MAGISTRATES

  QUESTION.
  CAPTAIN ARCHDALLsaid, he would beg to ask the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether he has received from Mr. Justice Keogh any Report in reference to the Magistrates of whose conduct he (Captain Archdall) complained some three weeks ago; and whether, in the event of no Report being received by the Government within a reasonable time, the noble Lord will, in justice to those gentlemen, institute an inquiry with reference to that complaint?
  LORD NAAS: Sir, I have received no communication of the nature referred to from Mr. Justice Keogh. As to the second part of the Question of the hon. and gallant Member, that will be matter for the Government to consider before I can give an answer.

THE EASTER HOLIDAYS.

  QUESTION.
  SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, When the House will adjourn for the Easter holidays, and when meet again?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The usual recess, Sir, will commence on the 12th of this month, and close on the 29th; but whether the usual recess will be moved or not is at present in the hands of fate.

  MR. GLADSTONE AND THE REFORM LEAGUE.—QUESTION.
  COLONEL STUART KNOXsaid, he would beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire, Whether the
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  report in the leading journals of his speech to Mr. Beales and the Reform League deputation was substantially correct. He believed that reporters were present, or he should not ask the Question. ["Order, Order!"]
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, my answer will be very simple. I have not had the pleasure, or satisfaction, or advantage, of reading that report.

  WAR CLERKS' SALARIES.—QUESTION.
  MR. O'BEIRNE, alluding to his former Question as to the payment monthly of the clerks in the War Department by the Treasury, asked, Whether this privilege was not in force at the Admiralty, Post Office, and the Treasury?
  MR. HUNTsaid, he believed that the privilege was confined to the Post Office, and there it had occasioned some additional expense.

  MUTINY BILL.—COMMITTEE.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  New Clause 22.
  (Every soldier shall upon enlistment be placed in the First Class of the Army, and no soldier in such class shall, in time of peace, be sentenced to the corporal punishment of flogging; every soldier in the First Class, for the commission of certain offences, to be specified from time to time in the Articles of War, be degraded to the Second Class of the Army, and every soldier in the Second Class shall be liable to be sentenced by Court Martial to corporal punishment not exceeding fifty lashes for the following offences, viz. mutiny, insubordination accompanied with personal violence or disgraceful conduct of an indecent kind; every soldier, when serving with a military force in the field or on board ship, shall be liable to a like punishment by Court Martial for any of the offences before enumerated, or for desertion, drunkenness on duty or on the line of march, misbehaviour, or neglect of duty.)
  Question again proposed, "That the word 'may' be there inserted."
  MR. LOCKEsaid, he wished to ask the Chairman what was the exact position in which the Committee were placed with regard to this clause. As far as he understood the matter, the first two lines of the clause were agreed to on Thursday evening, when an Amendment was moved to substitute the word "may" for the word "shall" in the third line of the clause. It was now proposed by the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for War to substitute another clause for the clause under the consideration of the Committee. He

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  wished to ask the Chairman of the Committee whether, on the present occasion, the Committee could consider any other clause than the one before them?
  MR. DODSON: The question which is before the Committee is whether, in the third line of the proposed new clause, the word "may" shall be inserted.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: The hon. Member is quite accurate in the description he has given as to the position at which the Committee has arrived with reference to this clause. I take this opportunity of expressing my hope that the Committee will allow the whole of this clause to be omitted, and that they will permit me to substitute in its place the clause of which I have given notice. If the Committee will indulge me for a short time I will endeavour in a few words to explain my reasons for making this proposal. In the first place, I have to state that in consequence of misapprehensions that occurred on Thursday night, I have found it very difficult so to alter the clause now before us as to make it accord with the alterations which I consented to make on Thursday night. Therefore, I thought that the better and more simple course would be to move to omit the clause before us, and to bring up a new clause in its place. The position in which we stand is this. On Thursday evening a decision was taken on the principle which is common to both these clauses—that principle being that whatever alteration the Committee might make the punishment of flogging should not be altogether abandoned in the army. The decision of the House was in favour of that principle by a very large majority in a full House. It then became a question what arrangement could be made consistently with the concession that the Government desired to make in order to carry out the decision of the House. It is perfectly true that I had expressed my willingness to exempt altogether from corporal punishment soldiers of the first class, and it is equally true that I had also intended to exempt soldiers in the second class from liability to corporal punishment except for three descriptions of offences; but, after listening to the debate on Thursday evening, I could not help seeing that there was a very strong feeling on both sides of the House against retaining the punishment of flogging for the third offence, and therefore I felt that it was my duty to defer to that feel-
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  ing. The result of this decision is, that in the clause I have drawn up the punishment of flogging will be restricted to the offences of mutiny and insubordination accompanied with personal violence. I must further say that I could not be insensible to the opinions which were expressed by hon. Gentlemen sitting on both sides of the House—opinions which were entitled to great weight—that it was not desirable that with regard to these two grave offences any classification should exempt the soldier who was guilty of them from corporal punishment. The clause I ask the Committee to insert, therefore, extends the punishment of flogging for offences of this description to all soldiers in the army without distinction of class. I must remind the Committee that this is not in any way a party question; and therefore I trust that the clause will be supported by a large majority of hon. Members on both sides of the House. For my own part, I conceive it to be my duty to endeavour to carry out to the best of my ability the view on this subject which the House may take. Under these circumstances the Committee will, I trust, adopt the clause, about the latter portion of which, as it relates to the army when engaged in active service and is not a new regulation, I need not detain the Committee.
  CAPTAIN VIVIANsaid, after the disposition shown by the right hon. Gentleman he would make an appeal to his hon. Friend the Member for Chatham to rest and be thankful for this year, and not to press his views further than the Committee had arrived at on Thursday evening, partitularly as they would bear in mind that the Mutiny Act was renewed yearly. At present the matter stood thus—that all soldiers upon entering the army were placed in the first class, and were not while in that class subject to the punishment of flogging. That question was put and carried on Thursday evening. He was therefore surprised to find that the right hon. Gentleman now proposed to negative the whole of that clause, and to insert this new clause, leaving out altogether the important concession which he himself had formerly granted. He was sorry to think that somebody with more knowledge of military matters than the right hon. Gentleman had obtained an influence over him on this question, and that circumstance, no doubt, had induced the right hon. Gentleman to propose the withdrawal of the

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  clause; but he (Captain Vivian) should oppose the withdrawal of it, because he thought it would be a step back wards instead of forwards. He would therefore suggest that the right hon. Gentleman's new clause should be added to the clause under discussion, immediately after that part of it which referred to the classification of soldiers.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, he understood that his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Truro now proposed to give up the concession made by the right hon. Baronet. ["No, no!"] He hoped that the Committee would stand by the clause now under discussion, and not substitute any other for it. By the new clause every soldier would be liable to be flogged for the two offences named; but the Committee had decided that all soldiers in the first class should not be flogged at all. He thought they were going to give up the concession made by the right hon. Baronet, and that he deprecated.
  MAJOR JERVISadverted to the Queen's regulations, and maintained that soldiers in the first class could be flogged for aggravated mutiny, and therefore this clause in the Mutiny Bill was not necessary; besides which all men entering the army could not but be placed in the first class. The only question was whether they should retain the punishment of flogging for mutiny and insubordination. Flogging might be necessary in the field or in other emergency, when there might not be means of inflicting other punishment; but at any other time there was no necessity for it. At the same time, he thought the present clause was a great improvement on that which was presented the other night, inasmuch as it was grammatical, and it was logical, and brought straight before them the retention of the punishment for only two offences, these two offences amounting practically to but one offence. Up to the year 1859, there were twenty-four offences for which flogging was inflicted; but after the revision which was made by Lord Herbert, flogging was retained only in eleven out of the twenty-four. By this clause they abolished nine out of these eleven offences, which, as he had said, left practically only one cause of punishment. The point which was required by the hon. and gallant Member for Truro (Captain Vivian) was already provided for by the Queen's regulations, and was not necessary to be inserted in the Mutiny Act.
  MR. MOWBRAYsaid, he thought the hon. and gallant Member for Harwich (Major Jervis) had rather misapprehended the bearing and effect of the proposed alteration. By the Queen's regulations no man in the first class could be flogged except for mutiny and aggravated insubordination. The proposal offered by the Government the other night would have given him absolute exemption from that punishment; but it was urged by hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House that there would thus be no means of punishing first-class men at all, and that if flogging was necessary for such serious offences in the case of second-class men, it was equally necessary in the case of the first-class. It was also urged that if the punishment were retained for mutiny, and for insubordination accompanied by personal violence, no faith would be broken with the first-class men, seeing that they were already liable to it for aggravated and mutinous conduct, which was tantamount to the two offences it was now proposed to reserve. The Government, therefore, wished to meet what appeared to be the feeling of the House, and the new clause suggested by his right hon. Friend had been framed with that object.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he understood the state of the question to be this—that whereas some years ago regulations were adopted by which first-class men were exempted from corporal punishment, except for mutiny and insubordination, it was alleged in the debate on the Motion of the hon. Member for Chatham, and was, he believed, not denied, that notwithstanding these regulations, first-class men had been flogged in some instances for minor offences. In order to correct this, he understood the right hon. Baronet opposite to say that he would place the exemption in the Act of Parliament, so that the benefit might be secured to the soldier by the authority of the Legislature instead of depending on regulations. He did not, however, understand that, corporal punishment being retained, it was in contemplation to exempt the first-class men from flogging for the two offences for which its retention was declared necessary. When, therefore, on Thursday night corporal punishment was affirmed to be necessary for the summary repression of mutiny and insubordination, it struck him as preposterous to propose that 91 per cent of the army should for these two offences be exempted from it. If, for example, a mutiny were

  917
  to break out, the leaders, if in the first class, could not be so punished, although they might be the most guilty. The right hon. Baronet, on seeing what would be the effect of the concession he had proposed, admitted that it was open to objection, and consequently agreed to the retention of corporal punishment for mutiny and insubordination, for which, if it was necessary at all, it was certainly required for all alike. He should be very glad when the time arrived for altogether dispensing with flogging; but he was not prepared to take the responsibility of saying that it had yet arrived, and that it was unnecessary to retain it for the two most serious offences, the prompt repression of which was indispensable. He agreed with the hon. and gallant Member (Major Jervis) that the new clause proposed by the right hon. Baronet was far better than that which he originally proposed, and the best course would be to negative the original clause and proceed to the consideration of the new one.
  MR. WHITBREADsaid, he thought that the right hon. Gentleman misapprehended the intention of the Amendment. It was clearly not that soldiers of the first class should be degraded to the second and then flogged. He wished, however, to go to the wider question. It seemed to him that they had entered on quite a new phase of the question; for ever since it had been agitated it was the House of Commons, backed by public opinion, that had sought for concessions on behalf of the army. The other night they learned that the Commander-in-Chief thought that the first class could do without corporal punishment; but now the House of Commons said they could not do without it. The Secretary for War had taken the advice of the Commander-in-Chief, the Adjutant General, and other high military authorities, and they authorized him to come down to the House to make what he (Mr. Whitbread) admitted was a great concession. He was not prepared, as a Member of that House, to force upon the Secretary for War and the Commander-in-Chief a policy which they had announced would be useless. If the right hon. Gentleman carried his clause as it now stood, abolishing the classes as regarded corporal punishment, he might depend upon it the matter would not rest there. He trusted that the House would negative the clause.
  MR. SAMUDAsaid, he had on the last evening given his vote for Government
  918
  under the impression that the clause provided that no soldier in the first class should be flogged; but the clause now under consideration admitted of the interpretation, whatever its real purport was, that for any offence committed by a soldier in the first class he should be degraded to the second; and in the second, for his next offence he should be liable to punishment. His own feeling was against personal punishment; and he believed a great number of votes were given the other night under the impression that there was to be a considerable reduction in the amount of punishment. The present proposal went exactly in an opposite direction; and certainly if it went to a division he should vote against having the first-class men liable to the punishment.
  GENERAL PEELreminded the Committee that by the 15th clause of the Mutiny Act, which had already been agreed to, the penalty of death was imposed for mutiny or aggravated insubordination; no distinction being made between the first and second classes. If therefore that penalty was not inflicted, and corporal punishment were abolished for first-class men, what was to be the substitute? Mutiny and insubordination were obviously more aggravated offences in the case of first than of second-class men; because all the sergeants, corporals, and non-commissioned officers were naturally in the former class; and if the extreme penalty were not inflicted, the next most severe punishment ought surely to be enforced. If flogging were retained at all, it ought to be retained for the first class as well as for the second.
  MR. HORSMANreminded the right hon. and gallant Member that although the 15th clause did say that mutiny should be punished with death, yet the 16th clause provided for the commutation of that penalty to penal servitude or any other punishment. The question before them might be put in the smallest possible compass. The House had affirmed a Resolution abolishing corporal punishment. Then the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War consulted the military authorities, and with their consent, almost at their suggestion, he came down with a new clause for the Mutiny Act, which made a great concession—namely, that corporal punishment was to be abolished in favour of 91 per cent of the army, leaving only 9 per cent still liable. The right hon. Gentleman said, "I offer this concession that corporal punishment shall be entirely

  919
  abolished in the case of the first class, thus exempting all good conduct men." Upon that question the House divided; and hon. Members now said they should not have voted with the Government had they not conceived that all good conduct men were to be exempt from corporal punishment. So the matter stood until it came to Committee, and then the late Judge Advocate, to his (Mr. Horsman's) great surprise, persuaded Her Majesty's Government to abandon the distinction, and to apply the lash indifferently to the good and bad conduct men. He (Mr. Horsman) objected to withdrawing the concession; and he felt much indebted, and the House felt much indebted, to the hon. Member for Bedford for the way in which he had stated the question. He hoped that the Government would abide by their concession, which every one felt had done them so much credit. He hoped that the good conduct men of the army would still be exempt from corporal punishment.
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, he believed he was the first Member who inquired on Thursday night whether it was intended to exempt first-class men from flogging—no matter what offences they might commit. The clause now proposed by the right hon. Baronet was, on the whole, a very fair one; but he should like to have a clear definition of the term "insubordination accompanied by personal violence." He should like to know whether these words meant simply the striking of an officer, or whether they included the offence of refusing to obey orders. He hoped his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War would give the House a decided answer to that question. The right hon. Member for Stroud quoted on Thursday cases in which men had been repeatedly flogged, arguing therefrom that the punishment was ineffectual. It should, however, be borne in mind that those were cases in which men had over and over again sold their kits: an offence for which "marking" was not sanctioned by military law. If therefore such men were discharged as had been suggested, there would be nothing to hinder their joining another regiment and repeating the offence. He held that if a man deserted his regiment and went off and joined some other, thus robbing the public by receiving a new bounty, such a man should be made a severe example of. Discharge, moreover, must not be made too easy, or soldiers would commit offences on purpose to obtain it. The right hon. Gentleman
  920
  also mentioned the number of lashes and the term of imprisonment which had in certain instances been inflicted, and that statement had been reported in the leading journal, and had been circulated all over Europe; yet he suggested no substitute for those punishments, but simply recommended that bad characters should be discharged. Would he approve, however, of branding them? It was surely necessary that blackguards who were discharged from the service should be marked in some way in order to prevent their enlisting again. There are as many Gentlemen on the other side of the House as on his own who have sons, or nephews, or other relations in the army, and therefore this question was as important to the one side as to the other; and it was most desirable that proper regulations should be agreed upon. It was all very well to talk about punishing offenders by imprisonment. There was this difference between the imprisonment of a soldier and of a civilian—that in the former case the performance of his duties devolved upon his comrades. It had been stated the other night that for many years no man had been flogged in the 7th Hussars. ["No, no!"] A Return before the House showed that statement to be incorrect. It had also been erroneously said that there was no flogging in the Guards. He did not himself believe that flogging could be entirely done away with; and he thought the proposal of his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War was well worthy the consideration of the House.
  MR. OTWAYsaid, he thought that it was quite unnecessary to follow the hon. and gallant Member into details which had been so often discussed; but he would remind him that the statement as to there having been no flogging for some years had reference to the 14th, and not the 7th Hussars. His object in rising was to call the attention of the Committee to two important considerations that should not be lost sight of during the discussion; and the first was the very serious imputation which would be cast upon the House of Commons if they did not maintain the concession which was granted by the Government the other night. What would be said by the country if when a Minister of the Crown announced, after consultation with the military authorities, that he had determined to make a certain concession, the House of Commons forced him by their action to withdraw that concession? There then

  921
  came this further consideration. The right hon. Gentleman's majority was largely augmented by his statement that they were about to make very important concessions; and with all respect to the right hon. Gentleman he must say that it would be a breach of faith if, after the division, the right hon. Gentleman, on the mere intimation of the right hon. Baronet (Sir George Grey), should withdraw the concession that he had made with such a flourish of trumpets, and they should be placed in a worse position as to flogging than they were in some time ago. This subject was never discussed without some light being thrown on it, and some new inconsistency developed; and an instance was to be found in the observations of the right hon. and gallant General that night. They had always been told that it was necessary to have corporal punishment, especially in reference to ill-conditioned privates assaulting non-commissioned officers. The clause, however, as it was now proposed that it should stand, would be not for the protection of non-commissioned officers, but it would inflict a hardship upon them, for these non-commissioned officers would be in the first class, and might be flogged if they misconducted themselves. He was opposed altogether to corporal punishment in the army in time of peace, believing that it might be safely dispensed with; but if the Secretary for War would accede to a proposition which would enable recruiting officers to tell recruits that they could not be flogged until by misconduct they had caused themselves to be degraded into the second class it would have, in his opinion, a very beneficial effect upon recruiting. He hoped the Government would consent to let the matter stand in this position.
  SIR CHARLES RUSSELLsaid, he thought that it was desirable that a few facts should be known to the Committee before they came to a decision upon the question before them. It had been asserted that recruiting was impeded because men were afraid of the lash, and, on the other hand, he himself had said that recruiting was impeded because time pay was insufficient. He had obtained an official document, duly signed and authenticated, to show the results of recruiting for the years 1865 and 1866, and the figures would conclusively establish the fact that the lash had no effect in deterring men from entering the army. In the first quarter of 1865, 4,167 men were enlisted,
  922
  and in the corresponding quarter of 1866 the number was only 3,547; and in the June quarter 3,250 were enlisted in 1865, and over 3,273 in 1866. But in the September quarter of 1866, when it had become known that the Commission was about to propose certain recommendations, the number rose to 4,108 against 3,408 in the corresponding quarter of the previous year, and in the following quarter the figures were 4,269 in 1866 against 3,605 in 1865. In the last eleven weeks the returns from the recruiting establishments gave the unprecedented number of 3,832 enlisted, which was at the rate of 4,578 for the quarter. But the case of the Royal Marines was still stronger, The strength of this corps was 16,400, and they had never had the slightest difficulty in keeping up their numbers; they had for several years never been more than fifty below their number, though fifteen men per mouth were allowed to purchase their discharge. Now in the Marines corporal punishment was more frequent than in any other branch of the army, and when the men were enlisted the provisions under which they were to serve were read to them, yet there was this remarkable fact, that there was no recorded instance of any recruit for the Marines refusing to enlist upon the ground of corporal punishment. If the lash only deterred men who were likely to commit aggravated mutiny from entering the army, it was well for the service that it existed. Experience and experiment both confirmed his view, for when, in 1832, Sir Henry Bouverie commanded in the northern district he ordered that under no consideration should the men in his district be flogged, and the result was that several regiments got into a terrible condition. It ended in one regiment getting into a state of mutiny; it was hurried off to Dublin, and it had not been there a week before a man stepped from the ranks, shook his fist, in his colonel's face, and said, "You cannot flog me." The man, however, was tried and afterwards flogged; and the bad spirit ceased, as if by magic, and there was no trouble from that moment, He had a letter from an officer who commanded the 78th for five years, and he said that he had had only one man flogged, though others had been sentenced by courts martial to be flogged, but he considered that the state of discipline permitted him to remit that punishment; but at length the discipline got into so bad a state that he was bound to have a man flogged. Re-

  923
  ference had been made to foreign armies, and he wished to say that in the Prussian army soldiers were beaten with a cane, and there was far greater power than in our army intrusted to young officers as to ordering the punishment. He had a letter from an English officer who had been a good deal in France, and he said that in 1855 in the French army 140 men were sentenced to death, and in eighty-two instances the punishment was carried into effect. Four years ago a young French soldier, who formed one of a fatigue party under a corporal, being drunk sat down and refused to move further, and struck the corporal repeated blows in the face. For this he was sentenced to death, and the sentence was carried out. He believed that they must have corporal punishment, as it was necessary to the maintenance of discipline, and he hoped that the House would not hastily abolish it, and thus place officers who were responsible for the discipline of the army in a very difficult and unfair position. He was sure that officers who were intrusted with the power to flog would exercise it with the greatest care and consideration; and that a commanding officer could have no greater pleasure than to know that for a number of years he had maintained proper discipline without having recourse to the lash.
  MR. COWPERsaid, he hoped the House would not be led away by feeling and sentiment, for the question before them was one of vital importance. The question was whether they were to have an army with discipline or an army without discipline. If discipline were not maintained an army was more terrible to its friends than to its foes. When a man joined the army he bound himself to obey the commands of his officers. These might be men whom he did not respect, and their orders might be such as he might consider unwise; but it was of the most absolute necessity that these orders should be implicitly obeyed. The question, then, was what punishment should be inflicted for insubordinate and mutinous conduct. In every army there was the power of inflicting the punishment of death for mutiny and violent insubordination; but the question now was what should be the punishment for secondary offences. His hon. Friend maintained that it was not necessary to retain flogging as the secondary punishment, because there was already the power of inflicting penal servitude. But it
  924
  was obvious that penal servitude, unlike flogging, could not be applied at the very nick of time. What was wanted was a punishment that could be inflicted just at the moment when the spirit of insubordination and mutiny was rising. Under such circumstances, it was obviously useless to tell men that if they went on in that course they would render themselves liable to penal servitude. The experience of all armies had told them that there must be a summary punishment, applicable to extreme cases, and that without it an army would become demoralized and useless, if not dangerous, as a military force.
  MR. PUGHsaid, he rose to express the hope which had been already expressed in the course of the debate, that the punishment of the lash would soon be abolished altogether. This discussion seemed rather retrograde, for they were discussing whether certain classes of the soldiers should be exempted from such punishment, while they knew quite well that in other countries and other times whole armies had been exempted from corporal punishment without any danger to the State. But he would not have attempted to take part in this discussion if he had not observed that the minds of military men were divided on the subject. The question at issue was not whether the country should have an army with discipline or without discipline, but whether discipline could be maintained without corporal punishment, and where history was concerned one man could mention a fact almost as well as another. Under these circumstances, he thought they might advantageously refer to a work which had lately appeared, and which had received considerable attention; it was the Life of Julius Cæsar, by the Emperor of the French. In the preliminary survey of Roman history, the Emperor, referring to the condition of the Roman soldier after the Punic wars, said—
  "The allies were always in a state of inferiority. Their contingents, more considerable than those of the metropolis, received but half their pay; and they were subjected to corporal punishments, from which the soldiers of the legions were exempted."
  They knew what the Roman army then was; it had destroyed Carthage, and it had conquered one of the greatest generals of any age or country. If the Roman soldier could march to victory while exempted from corporal punishment, why not the British soldier also? Was he less

  925
  amenable to discipline and order? Hon. Gentlemen doubtless remembered the description of Cromwell's army in the late Lord Macaulay's History of England, he said—
  "In that singular camp no oath was heard, no drunkenness or gambling was seen, and during the long dominion of the soldiery the property of the peaceable citizen and the honour of woman were held sacred. Not an ounce of plate was taken from the shops of the goldsmiths; no servant girl complained of the rough gallantry of the redcoats."
  The historian then went on to describe their military achievements on the Continent, of which their country might well be proud. It might, perhaps, be said that the times were different now. Certainly they were different in one respect, and he admitted it, for the benefit of military men who were anxious for the welfare of their soldiers. The pay of the soldier was then double that of the common labourer, while the pay of the labourer was at the present day far more than double that of the soldier. But they could appeal to higher and nobler motives. They could improve the condition of the soldier, they could discharge bad characters from the army, and by raising the men in their own opinion and making them proud of their profession and influencing them by love of country, they would be able to abolish the lash.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he would not enter now upon the subject of corporal punishment, although it was one on which he entertained a very strong opinion. The real question before them was a very serious one; it was whether the House would support the right hon. Baronet opposite in making his concession, or whether they would compel hint to retract it. It had been argued that recruiting was carried on under great difficulties, because every man who enlisted was liable to be flogged; and he believed the right hon. Baronet himself had acknowledged that such was the result of the existing system. At all events, it was extremely important that they should have a good and plentiful supply of men for the army, and he believed that this supply would be seriously affected if the concession which had been made were retracted. It was now proposed that every recruit should be liable to be flogged instead of soldiers in the second class being alone liable, and this proposition, it carried out, would render it wore difficult to get men of good character to enter the army, as recruits would then think that the House of Commons and the War Department to-
  926
  gether intended to keep them all liable to the lash.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he thought it would be more convenient to take the opinion of the Committee on the clause first proposed by the right hon. Baronet, and if that were negatived, the right hon. Baronet could then bring forward his second proposition. The question that should be put now was whether the word "may" should remain in the clause.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  MR. RUSSELL GURNEYsuggested an Amendment of the clause to the effect that "upon conviction of certain offences by court martial," instead of "for the commission of certain offences," a soldier of the first class might be degraded.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. WHITBREADproposed the omission of the last part of the clause, and the substitution of the words:—
  "Any court martial may sentence any soldier in the second class to corporal punishment for mutiny or insubordination, accompanied with personal violence, of which he may be guilty while in such class,"
  with the addition of the following words from the new clause, of which notice had been given by Sir John Pakington:—
  "And, save as aforesaid, and as hereinafter mentioned, no court martial shall have power to sentence any soldier to corporal punishment; provided that any court martial may sentence any soldier to corporal punishment, while in active service in the field, or on board any ship not in commission, for mutiny, insubordination, desertion, drunkenness on duty, or on the line of march, disgraceful conduct, or any breach of the Articles of War, and no sentence of corporal punishment shall exceed fifty lashes."
  Amendments agreed to.
  On Question, "That the clause, as amended, be added to the Bill,"
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he thought, from the tone of the discussion, it might be supposed that he was making no concession, whereas in point of fact his proposal went to the extent of abolishing corporal punishment for eight or nine offences which under the existing law were liable to it, and thus leaving that punishment applicable solely to mutiny and insubordination accompained with personal violence. He was also taunted with having acted under the influence of military authorities. It was true that the highest military authorities had pronounced a strong opinion upon the question as it had been recently discussed in the House of Commons. But while the Government

  927
  desired, as far as it was possible, to give effect to the strong opinion expressed by the House of Commons, by acceding to the proposition of limiting the punishment of flogging to those offences he had referred to, it was with great reluctance that they consented to abolish it for mutiny. He himself expressed doubts on Friday night, and he now desired to take upon himself the responsibility of so far retracing his steps as to express his conviction that, after the sentiments expressed on both sides of the House, it would be far more prudent to leave the crime of mutiny to be visited with corporal punishment. An hon. Gentleman had asserted that he was thus placing the soldier in the first class in a worse position than he was at present. That was not the fact, for the soldier in the first class was now liable to be flogged for either of those offences, and he merely left him as he then was.
  CAPTAIN GROSVENORspoke amid loud cries for a division. He was understood to say that he gave full credit to the Secretary for War for the disposition he had shown to meet the views of hon. Gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of the House, and he regretted that the right hon. Gentleman had been induced to withdraw the concession he had made. For his part, he objected to men of the first class being liable to corporal punishment for isolated of insubordination.
  Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, be added to the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 162; Noes 175: Majority 13.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONthen proposed the following clause, which was read a first and second time:—
  "Any court martial may sentence any soldier to corporal punishment for mutiny, or for insubordination accompanied with personal violence; and, save as aforesaid and as hereinafter mentioned, no court martial shall have power to sentence any soldier to corporal punishment. Provided, that any court martial may sentence any soldier to corporal punishment while on active service in the field or on board any ship not in commission, for mutiny insubordination, desertion, drunkenness on duty or on the line of march, disgraceful conduct, or any breach of the Articles of War; and no sentence of corporal punishment shall exceed fifty lashes."
  MR. OTWAYsaid, that this clause also involved the question of corporal punishment; but after the division which had just taken place, he thought it useless to waste the time of the Committee by dividing. He must, however, enter his protest
  928
  against the clause; and he would tell the right hon. Baronet that by the course he had pursued he would have brought upon himself the implacable hostility with which hon. Gentlemen opposed to flogging would pursue him in reference to this question. He (Mr. Otway) would certainly deem it his duty to do all he could to put an end to this most barbarous and disgraceful punishment. [Ironical cheers.] When hon. Gentlemen opposite taunted him with those cheers, he would remind them of the declarations that had been repeatedly made throughout the discussions upon this measure, that it ought not to be considered a party question. But who, he asked, had made it a party question? It was made so by the whips on the Government side who, from remote parts of England and Scotland, brought up Members to support their proposition. The right hon. Baronet had chosen to recall the concessions he had deliberately made to the House of Commons upon this question. The conduct of the right hon. Gentleman would not be forgotten next year, when efforts he (Mr. Otway) hoped of a more successful character would be again made to abolish this system of flogging in the army. So satisfied was he of the justice of the alteration for which he and his friends contended that he would lose no opportunity of urging the abolition of corporal punishment.
  MR. LAYARDsaid, that the right hon. Baronet, after having stated to the House that with the concurrence of the military authorities he had exempted 153,000 British soldiers in the first class from corporal punishment, leaving only 17,000 exposed to it, had now deliberately withdrawn this exemption. He hoped this would go forth to the country, and the right hon. Gentleman must be held entirely responsible before the country for this proceeding.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: I also express a hope that it will go forth to the country as the hon. Gentleman desires, and I also hope it will go forth at the same time that it has been my good fortune to propose the relief of many thousands of our soldiers from ten or eleven offences which were punishable by corporal
  punishment.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that this was the last question on which any party feeling ought to exist, and he could not therefore concur in what had fallen from the hon. Gentleman the Member for

  929
  Chatham; but he thought his hon. Friend might sincerely congratulate himself—looking at the great alteration made in the Mutiny Act this year—upon having been the means of diminishing to a large extent corporal punishment in the army.
  MAJOR JERVISsaid, he could assure the hon. Gentleman the Member for Chatham that party politics had not guided him (Major Jervis) in the course he had taken with reference to this subject, and he asked the hon. Gentleman to drop all ascerbity of feeling, and be satisfied with what he had achieved. The position of the first-class soldier was the same now as it was before-namely, that he could not be flogged except for mutiny or insubordination, whilst the second-class soldier had been relieved from corporal punishment for desertion, drunkenness whilst on duty, or on the line of march, embezzlement of public monies, stealing from a comrade, theft, making away with necessaries, and other offences. In all he had been relieved from corporal punishment in eleven cases, and besides that, arrangements had been made by which the incorrigible blackguard could be got rid of without his being returned to his regiment.
  SIR HARRY VERNEYsaid, he believed that the army at present could not be governed except by the lash; but it depended upon that House whether the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War should be enabled to do without it. When, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman in some future year should propose measures with the view of abolishing the lash, and should say that it would cost money, let not hon. Gentlemen who talked against flogging say "No!" The strong feeling which had been manifested in the House against flogging would enable the right hon. Gentleman to bring forward such measures, and he felt sure there was no one more desirous than the right hon. Gentleman to free the country and the army from the disgrace of the lash. No one entertained a stronger feeling against the lash than he did, and he rejoiced at the spirit which the House had manifested. But did they suppose that in foreign armies the punishments were not as severe? In the French army, out of 123 military offences, no loss than forty-three were punishable with death. An American general was under the gallery the other night during the debate on the subject, and when asked what punishments they had got in the American army in place of flogging, he replied that
  930
  though flogging was against the "Articles of War," they flogged the bad characters after all.
  MR. HORSMANsaid, he was bound to admit that both the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War and the military authorities had shown every disposition to meet the wishes of hon. Members on that occasion. The question came upon the Government very suddenly, and they knew it was one on which the military authorities felt very strongly, and he must say that they had conceded far more than could have been expected under the circumstances. He could not, however, refrain from expressing his surprise that when that concession had been made by the right hon. Gentleman, and when it would have passed the House without opposition, difficulties should have been raised, not from that (the Ministerial) side of the House, but by right hon. Gentlemen who sat on the front Opposition Benches. He thanked the right hon. Gentleman not only for the concession he had made, but also for the manner in which it had been made, as showing that the military authorities were willing even to concede more. The manner and spirit in which the Resolution had been met confirmed the opinion he expressed the other night that this was the last time they would see corporal punishment continued by a clause in the Mutiny Act for infliction in time of peace. He wished to correct an error referred to by his gallant Friend, relative to what he (Mr. Horsman) stated the other night as to the number of lashes inflicted. He did not intend to represent the large number of lashes given, but the number of days the offenders were committed to hard labour; because he knew at the time that not more than fifty lashes could be given at one time. In the first case to which he referred he stated that the man had fifty lashes and 250 days' hard labour; in the second, fifty lashes had been inflicted on three separate occasions and 434 days' hard labour.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, he was anxious to mention to the Committee a circumstance of considerable practical importance relating to the matter before them. The division which had just taken place strongly illustrated a complaint he made last Session, that when the House was full the smallness of the space in which they were assembled prevented Members from getting into the House to know what was going on. Several hon. Members,

  931
  himself amongst the rest, were unable to get inside the House before the last division took place, so as to hear the Question put. He heard many hon. Members around him ask the questions, "Are we voting right?" "Are we voting for the 'ayes' or for the 'noes'?" and he heard one hon. Member say, "I am voting for Otway," when in reality he was voting against him. He thought the subject ought to be considered by the House. ["Order, order!"]
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, the Committee was a Committee on the Mutiny Bill, and it was not therefore competent for him to consider the arrangements of the House. If the hon. Baronet wished to raise that question he must do so in the House when the Speaker was in the Chair.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, that with all deference to the Chairman he was speaking about the late division, and whether it was one which ought to have weight with the House. He thought it ought not.
  MR. M'LARENsaid, he agreed with the right hon. Member for Stroud that the result of the late division would give great dissatisfaction to the country, and all the more so, because, as had been pointed out, the deterioration of the liberality of the measure proposed came from the Benches on their (the Opposition) side of the House. There could be no mistake that that was the fact. He must, however, altogether deny that a great concession had been made. Before the clause which had just been carried the state of the army with reference to corporal punishment was this, that 153,000 soldiers, a number equal to the population of one of their great towns, were altogether exempted from the lash under the clause as originally proposed by the Secretary for War; but under the clause as it bad now been carried, they were all liable to be flogged for two offences, and the second-class soldiers were liable to be flogged for five separate offences. Under the Articles of War any offender could be visited with flogging, even for smoking in one of the sleeping apartments, if the Commander-in-Chief made it a punishable offence under the Articles of War. He thought the Committee would find that the effect of the clause just passed would be to make the labour of the recruiting sergeant more difficult and less productive than it had hitherto been.
  MR. WHITEsaid, he was at a loss to conceive that any concession had been made. Six or seven years ago, when he
  932
  brought the subject before the House, he was asked by the late Lord Herbert, the then Secretary for War, not to press his Motion to a division, because the army had been divided into classes, and that the first-class men would not be liable to corporal punishment. The same argument was used by the late Sir George Lewis, and by the present Lord Northbrook; but now that distinction was abolished, and the question so far from advancing was positively retrograding. The Duke of Wellington, twenty-two years ago, said he hoped to live to see the day when corporal punishment would be abolished. Yet they were now in the same condition with regard to it as they were then. He must therefore express his regret that the right hon. Gentleman had not persisted in the concession which in the first instance he offered to the House.
  SIR EDMUND LECHMEREsaid, he could not admit that this question was regarded on the one side or the other as a party question. He and many hon. Members on the Ministerial side of the House had supported the Motion of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Chatham, and the result had been a great advantage gained, which might be used to improve the status of the British soldier. From the information he had obtained from sergeants under whose drill instructions he had been, he ventured to think that the result of this discussion would be to very much facilitate the labour of the recruiting sergeant, and at the same time to give great encouragement to a large body of intelligent men to join the army. There were other subjects connected with the condition of the soldier, which required consideration, but he did not believe they contributed to the same extent to keep respectable men out of the army as flogging.
  MR. OTWAY, in explanation, said, he did not mean to use the term party question in the sense in which it had been taken by hon. Members. It was perfectly true, as every one knew, that every exertion had been used to get a Government majority.
  MR. MONTAGU CHAMBERSsaid, it was assumed by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Chatham, and not contradicted, that the late Lord Herbert, who was a most benevolent man, and one who was exceedingly anxious to serve the soldier, had divided the army into two classes, exempting by the Queen's regula-

  933
  tions those who were in the first class from corporal punishment. At first he understood that privilege was to be retained; but to his astonishment, and he believed to the astonishment of many other Gentlemen also, that privilege had been taken away. It had been his fate to see soldiers receive more than fifty lashes each at a time, mid he, for one, should be glad to see the punishment entirely abolished, He was convinced that in time they might abolish flogging from the army; because since 1834 the statistics showed that a less number of lashes had been given, and a fewer number of men flogged than formerly, and yet the discipline of the army had not in the slightest degree diminished. They had lost the boon of the men in the first class, which was a great pity; but they must for the present be content with those advantages they had gained, hoping, however, that another year's experience would induce whatever Ministry should happen to be in power to come down to the House and say that, except in time of war, they were prepared to abolish flogging altogether,
  Clause added to the Bill.
  Clauses 10 and 11, with Amendments, agreed to.
  Preamble.
  MR. OTWAYsaid, he thought that it was absurd, considering the small numerical strength of the British army and the events which had recently occurred on the Continent, to declare in the preamble that the army was maintained "for the preservation of the balance of power in Europe." He would therefore move that those words be omitted.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHcomplained that the Government had been afraid of bringing the important question involved in this Bill before the Horse Guards, and had neglected to do so from the 15th of March to the 22nd, when they were forced to adopt that course; and whilst on one occasion they had invoked the authority of the Horse Guards in favour of their views, they had subsequently evaded the responsibility of communicating with that Department. The answer which the right hon. Gentleman (Sir John Pakington) had given him at an earlier period of the evening upon the subject of the Commander-in-Chief was eminently unsatisfactory; and he must go further and characterize it as evasive. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman himself, and he wits sure the House did not understand where the
  934
  power of the Horse Guards commenced and where it ended. It was a great responsibility to quote the opinion of the Horse Guards to the House, inasmuch as there was scarcely a single hon. Member in the House who was not interested in some persons immediately under the control of that Department.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONassured the hon. Member for Devizes that the inferences he drew were perfectly inaccurate. With regard to the words in the preamble to which objection had been taken, he observed that they had been inserted in every Mutiny Bill for a long time, and he advised the hon. Member for Chatham, who had given notice of his intention to propose in a future year great changes in the Mutiny Bill, to reserve this point for consideration among others.
  MR. OTWAYsaid, that was no reason why those words should remain in the Act. They were a perfect absurdity, and their omission would not affect the Mutiny Bill at all. He moved that they be omitted.
  COLONEL SYKESthought the words had been so long in the Act that it was quite time they were invalided.
  Amendment negatived.
  Preamble agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  SUPPLY.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  GENERAL DUNNEasked the Secretary of State for War if the classification of the civil departments had been decided on, so as to place all the civil departments on a similar footing as to allowances, and whether civil officers of the Royal Engineers department were included? He believed this matter had been referred to a Committee which had finished their labours, and he wished to know whether the Report would be carried out?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, it was quite true that the subject to which his hon. and gallant Friend referred had been under the consideration of a Committee; but, so far as he was aware, his hon. and gallant Friend was mistaken in supposing that the Committee had concluded their labours. The subject was still under the consideration of the Committee; at all

  935
  events, they had not yet reported, and till they had done so, he could not tell what decision would be arrived at.

  SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
  SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  1. Question again proposed,
  "That 67,300 Men and Boys be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1868, including 16,200 Royal Marines."
  Whereupon Question again proposed,
  "That 65,300 Men and Boys be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services, for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, including 16,200 Royal Marines."—(Mr. Childers.)
  MR. STANSFELDsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the point at which they had arrived when the Chairman was ordered to report Progress. His hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract had reviewed the Estimates at considerable length and in considerable detail, pointing out evidence, as he thought, of the absence of an economic hand in their construction. His hon. Friend complained of the excess of £500,000 as compared with the Navy Estimates of the preceding year, and he went on to propound in great detail a policy and a scheme for the reduction of our foreign squadrons, which, without at all impairing the efficiency, but rather adding to the immediate efficiency, in time of peace, of our navy, would effect a considerable saving, which it would be open to the Admiralty to apply as far as necessary in the construction of fighting vessels of war. No one could deny that when a new Government came down to ask for an addition of £500,000 on the Navy Estimates, and, on the whole of the Estimates, of £2,000,000, they were at least bound to offer some clear and complete explanation, some sufficient defence and justification of that extra charge. The first point to which he addressed himself was this—had they been furnished with that complete explanation? What was the line of argument adopted by the noble Lord who introduced the Navy Estimates, and by the present and late First Lord, who followed his hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract. The first thing he noticed was—he would not say the deliberate intention, but the tendency and desire to shift the responsibility of this heavy and increased charge on other Departments of the Government, and also on the proceedings and policy of the late Government.
  936
  Then the noble Lord the Secretary of the Admiralty said that the maintenance of a squadron on the slave coast was a Cabinet question, and that as long as the Cabinet decided on keeping up squadrons of this kind, the Admiralty were bound to find the men and ships.
  LORD HENRY LENNOXsaid, the hon. Member was mistaken. He did not say anything of the kind. What he did say was that on a question of national policy the Cabinet must decide.
  MR. STANSFELD: The noble Lord certainly talked of vessels on foreign stations which on the outbreak of war would have to "cut and run." He also talked of the African squadron, and expressed a strong hope that it might at least be reduced. Then the present first Lord gave some recollections of an older date, when he was Secretary to the Admiralty some years ago, and told them that the Admiralty were the victims of the Foreign and Colonial Departments. But the true doctrine as to responsibility for Estimates was laid down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. On the subject of cost the First Lord was responsible as a Cabinet Minister; and the whole Cabinet were fully responsible to the House for the policy of the Estimates and the charge which the House of Commons were asked to defray. Therefore, he repeated, when a new Government asked £500,000 in excess of previous Estimates they were bound collectively and individually to give some good reason for the demand. The right hon. Baronet the late First Lord appeared to be disposed to throw the responsibility of the existing scale of foreign squadrons on the late Board of Admiralty and the late Government. The right hon. Baronet read a list of the number of men and tonnage of vessels employed in foreign squadrons from 1860, downwards, showing that during the time of the late Board of Admiralty there had been a progressive diminution in the number of men and tonnage of ships employed in foreign squadrons. He also showed that in 1867 there was a still further small reduction. The reductions stated to have been made in particular branches of the service at the beginning of 1867 had not affected the amount of the charges nor the number of men asked for the year 1867–8. He admitted that the Naval Estimates of recent years were also open to criticism, and that the measures which had been taken to improve the efficiency of our naval force had been hesitating and illo-

  937
  gical, and had involved a great waste of public money. But with reference to the out that the policy proposed to be pursued by the present Board of Admiralty, he could not forget the old maxim which asserted the desirability of "being off with the old love before taking on with the new," the dockyards; and he thought it would and he thought the Board of Admiralty ought to be sufficiently satisfied of the value of the new power, offensive and defensive, before they gave up the old. The nation, however, had a right to ask that that our naval force should progress in strength and efficiency, and the objection he had to make to the present administration of the navy was that it allowed the naval power of the country to remain stationary. It was impossible to calculate the strength of the navy upon the principle that would have been correct some years since. In the days of wooden sailing vessels and of 32-pounders, when we had plenty of reserves, the man was rightly and naturally taken as the true unit of power; but since that time our naval force had undergone a rapid and violent transition, and we had now to look more to the power of the gun and to the strength of the vessel than to the number of men on board. If the men were not provided with the best guns and the most improved vessels, they would only be a source of needless expense. The ships which composed our foreign squadrons would have to "cut and run" in the event of war, and in time of peace they cost us large sums for repairing and maintaining them. What the Admiralty had to do was to produce naval power, and he did not think that the method they were now adopting, of building a vast number of small vessels which would be of no use in time of war, was likely to produce that power. There were two lines of policy, two alternatives—as it seemed to him—policies by which the result desired could be arrived at. In the first place, by spending an enormous sum to provide the navy with a vast number of the best modern iron-clad vessels on which to place the men who were asked for, we might obtain a navy of overwhelming power for a time, but in the course of a few years the whole have to be done over again. The other policy was that indicated by his hon. Friend (Mr. Childers) in his speech the other evening, which would necessitate every possible saving of men and ships on foreign stations in order to add to the number of fighting ships in our possession and under our im-
  938
  mediate control. He must, however, point out that the details of that scheme were suggestive, not dogmatic. The noble Lord the Secretary told the House the other night that a Committee was to be appointed to inquire into the working of the dockyards; and he thought it would be of advantage to the service if the two gallant Admirals who had been named were empowered to inquire into the subject of the cost and use of our stationary and harbour ships, since he was certain that those vessels were a source of unnecessary expenditure, and not of real power. The noble Lord (Lord Henry Lennox) had told the House the other night that the Admiralty had given up repairing the large old-fashioned ships in consequence of their being so expensive to repair and man, and that they were building new vessels of a more manageable size, which would be infinitely more useful and more economical. To a certain extent such a policy would be a good one; but the question was whether it was wise to build 16,000 tons of such vessels besides the composite gunboats for China in the course of the next financial year. But, after all, the great question was whether the Admiralty were justified in asking the Committee for £500,000 for the purpose of building vessels. The noble Lord the Secretary for the Admiralty told them that the late Board had rather neglected the construction of iron-clad vessels.
  LORD HENRY LENNOX: What I stated was that £128,000 had been put down in one year for iron-clads, but had not been spent on iron-clads in dockyards; and that in the following year no estimate at all had been proposed for iron-clads.
  MR. STANSFELD: That could be only with regard to dockyards.
  LORD HENRY LENNOX: I said so.
  MR. STANSFELDsaid, that remark only applied to vessels that were to be built by contract, and not to those building in the Royal Dockyards. However, the view of the noble Lord was that it was necessary to do more in the coming year than had been done during the two previous years in the way of building iron-clads. He would take Vote 10, and of the additional £500,000, roughly speaking, £160,000 was for engines. He presumed that these engines were not all for iron-clad vessels. The balance of the £500,000, or £340,000, was intended for two iron-clads—one the sister ship to the Inconstant—and for ten composite gunboats designed for service in

  939
  China. But as iron-clads could be built but slowly, his belief was that of that £500,000 in the Controllers' section of Vote 10 not more than one-half, or £250,000, would really be devoted to the construction of iron-clad ships, or of the engines that were to be put into them. The £500,000 to be devoted to the strength of the navy was thus reduced to £250,000. Confining the question to the addition to the real fighting strength of the country, he could not admit that there would be much gain. He found that in the Estimates for 1866–7 the late Board of Admiralty proposed to advance the construction of the Hercules and the Monarch by what would be equivalent to 5,715 tons, and in the present Estimates he found that the Hercules and Monarch had only been advanced 2,752 tons, and the present Board had thus done less by one-half (2,963 tons) during the financial year just expired than the late Board had proposed to do in advancing the construction of these vessels. It was urged in explanation of this that there had been a failure in respect to the armour-plates, and that a caisson had been damaged; but that was not a sufficient reason to account for so very great a difference in the amount of progress made. It was a question of labour; and as much labour had not been given to those two vessels in the course of the financial year as had been intended, or as might have been done if that labour had not been diverted to the building probably, or to the repair, of other vessels, to which he attached smaller importance. From the Estimates of this year he found that they proposed to advance their iron-clads 4,195 tons; but they were already in arrear 2,963, and therefore, deducting that arrear, it only left the present Board credit for 1,232 tons of dockyard building of iron-clads. Taking, then, these facts and figures into account, he said that their £250,000 for the construction of iron ships dwindled down to nothing. Now, what was the practice in regard to the framing of the Navy Estimates? All the sub-departments were summoned to rack their brains in finding out work, and then, as a matter of policy, they sent in greater demands than were reasonable, or than were expected to be conceded, because they knew the docking process to which their demands would be subjected, and they wished to provide against it. Those various demands having been cut down still produced a total which could not be submitted to that House,
  940
  and then the Estimates underwent a yet further docking to meet the views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and not to carry out any clear and definite naval policy. That was a most illogical system, and led to extravagance. The Government ought to set out with a notion of general policy and of total cost, and then it should sub-divide and appropriate that total under the different Votes, so as to purchase as much real power as possible, and keep down waste. He was not surprised at schemes of re-construction being brought before the Board of Admiralty. Men feeling themselves responsible for the efficiency, and not at all for the cost of the navy, naturally and logically brought such schemes before the Board. They saw that we had got so many men, and that we had not got fighting ships, and they asked if a serious war arose, what was to be done with our men and our ships. And how had they met the proposals made to them? They retained the men for whom they did not propose to build ships, they also retained the ships which could not fight, and then they professed to add to the strength of the navy by £500,000, though in reality this proposal amounted to next to nothing. His hon. Friend (Mr. Childers) and himself put forward their views as their contribution towards the solution of the question of naval policy, and they thought that their views at least deserved a fair consideration. What was the justification of a naval expenditure of £10,000,000 or £11,000,000? Could it be justified merely for the purposes of peace, and to maintain the police of the seas? No naval man, he believed, would pretend to vindicate it on such narrow and limited grounds. Their reason for incurring so vast an outlay was to provide for the possible contingency of a serious naval war. The object of their preparation, then, should surely be to give them immediate efficiency; for in modern warfare hard, rapid, and decisive blows were required to be struck. If they could imagine a naval war lasting beyond a few months there would be in that case practically no bounds to the resources of this country. No two countries in the world could put as many men on board ship as this country could, and the whole world combined could not surpass England in the power of manufacturing the most modern inventions of maritime warfare. The only justification for a large naval expenditure in time of peace, was that it should be so appropriated and expended as

  941
  to give a maximum of immediate efficiency in time of war. The expenditure proposed by the Government could not in that view be justified. Were men an element of naval strength if we had not fighting ships into which to put them, or were these vessels of the noble Lord, which were to "cut and run" as soon as they were attacked—if, indeed, they could run—to be regarded as an element of strength? Ought it to be necessary to pay £500,000 more than last year, or ought they not to take the expenditure of last year as a maximum, and more or less gradually to reduce it? Let the House compare the naval power of England with that of America and France. The American Monitors were all iron-clads. Two had certainly crossed the ocean, but they were vessels for defence and not for offence. The number of seamen, officers, and marines after a gigantic war had been reduced to 17,000 men. France had seventeen sea-going iron-clads and ten others proposed and partly building. He purposely left out of the account the third class French iron-clads available for home defence. This country had twenty-six sea-going iron-clads, four turret-ships, four building, and three proposed this year to be built, making a total of thirty-seven. With such a force no one could doubt that, taking ship for ship, our vessels were immensely superior to those of the French navy. Naval science was still in a condition of violent and rapid transition, and the true policy of the Admiralty was not to lay down any great scheme of naval re-construction at the present moment, but to concentrate their strength upon one or two vessels and get then afloat as rapidly as possible, and by that means get work out of them before, by the march of invention and improvement, they fell behind the time. The lesson that modern warfare had taught ought to be borne in mind. It was this, that war was now so costly that nations would not go to war without the powerful motive to do so. Italy had such a motive; so had Prussia. That country, after years of deliberate preparation, had gone to war to secure a united Germany. The United States went to war under the pressure of motives so overwhelming that it was almost impossible to conceive their recurrence. Considering our present policy of non-intervention, which was safe in the hands of the present Secretary for Foreign Affairs, it was unlikely that any nation would wantonly incur the
  942
  danger and risk of a war with England. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer, at the end of last Session, addressed the House in explicit and almost solemn terms in favour of economy. He said it was the
  "Intention of the present Government in spirit and in truth to carry into effect that policy in respect to the expenditure of the country which we recommended to the late Government, when sitting on the Benches opposite."—[3 Hansard, clxxxiv. 1289.]
  And the right hon. Gentleman assured the House that in the administration of the finances they would be guided by the principle of economy—
  "Not meaning by that negligence, inefficiency, and imperfection, but that prudence in the application of our resources which engages in nothing but what is necessary for the public welfare, but takes care to accomplish its purpose in the most complete manner."—[3 Hansard,clxxxiv. 1290.]
  He knew no better or more complete definition of naval or other administrative economy than was contained in these words. The Resolution in favour of economy proposed by him in 1862, was called at the time an abstract Resolution, yet it was in its result a practical Resolution, for it led in the following year to a reduction of £2,000,000 in the present Estimates. The Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman, on the contrary, had led to a precisely opposite result, for there had been an increase of £2,000,000 in the present Estimates. No doubt, the Chancellor of the Exchequer still held the same opinion which he expressed at the end of last Session, and the Cabinet had probably resisted still greater demands than they had conceded. It was still open to the right hon. Gentleman and his Colleagues to make their influence felt, if not on the Estimates, at all events on the expenditure of the year. There were two Members of the Cabinet who, more than any others, could affect the expenditure—the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Foreign Secretary. The former could no doubt persuade his Colleague to say to the Admiralty and to the War Office that the problems of the year must be worked out within the Estimates of the year; and the latter could form himself into a sub-committee with the First Lord of the Admiralty, and cause to be ordered home every ship which was not a fighting ship from foreign squadrons. A great saving could thus be effected—in the building of ships, in repairs, and in outfits. That might seem to be an arbitrary position; but it was not so in reality. The consequence would be to compel, as it

  943
  were, the departments to go deeper down into the causes of expense, and into the true uses and real power of armaments, and in that way to economize the resources of the country without detracting from the real power of the country.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, he was glad to see that the form of the Estimates had this year been improved as compared with those of former years. He alluded particularly to the new table, which gave a programme of the works being and about to be executed in the several dockyards. He would be glad to see a tabular form of the total number of persons employed by the Admiralty. It was to be found in the French Estimates, so that by a birds-eye view a knowledge of the total numbers employed in the navy, whether military or civil, was obtained. It was no doubt right upon the part of the British Government, when they found a Foreign Government doing so, to build a new class of ships, and not to go to sea with the old ones. They laid out their money, and so did the French, in iron-clads, and he would now state the condition of the French navy, and also that of the British; the result of the competition which has been going on. The information respecting the French navy is supplied by the "Ordinary Budget," the Extraordinary Budget, and the Report to the Legislative Chamber—all for 1867. The Secretary to the Admiralty had accurately stated, as regards number, that the French had 43 armour-plated vessels; but in the French Ordinary Budget he found only 10 vessels spoken of as sea-going, and only two of those were of the first-class. The largest ship in the French navy, the Magenta, had a displacement of 6,737 tons, while England had three ships of 10,000 tons displacement—namely, the Minotaur, Agincourt, and Northumberland. Of the 43 French vessels 14 of them were not sea-going at all, but were for rivers and lakes, and those were not likely to come in contact with the ships of this country. Then, instead of having 16 first-class vessels, as he had understood his noble Friend, the French had only 13. This was shown by a report made to the Emperor, entitled Exposé de la situation de l' Empire, and dated the 31st of December, 1866. He also found that the French had 340 vessels altogether, while we had 414. The French had 120 in commission, and the total number for which credit had been given in the Budget of this year up to the
  944
  1st of January, 1868, was 157. In 1862 the French had only 6 iron-clad vessels and 10 frigates building. One of them had been lost, and two were no longer effective, so that the number was reduced to 13; while the Return granted to Mr. Laird, dated August 10, 1866, showed that we had 30 iron-clads afloat, 4 first-class building, and 4 floating iron-clad batteries, so that no urgent need existed for our spending money on building ships to meet opponents who had not the means to oppose us. The French had been actually discontinuing the annual credits they had given for construction. In 1861–2 England had devoted £755,782 to construction, and £469,307 to armour-plating, which made a total of £1,225,089. In the same year the French spent a total of £660,000, or just one-half, for the same purposes. It would be found, too, that in every department of the navy, whether it regarded men, ships, or money, their expenditure was just one-half that of this country. In 1863–4 England spent £630,203 in construction, and £408,822 for armour-plates alone, giving a total of £1,039,025. The French expenditure that year, including everything necessary for the completion of their vessels, was only £560,000. In 1864–5, we required £448,452 for construction, and £346,619 for armour-plates, making a total of £795,071; the French £480,000; and in 1865–6 the total was £544,300, including only £17,600 for iron matters, so that there had, up to that time, been a gradual diminution. The French allowed for construction in. 1865 and in 1866–7 only £420,000, so that the French had annually diminished their credit for construction from £660,000 in 1862–3, to £420,000 in 1866–7. In 1866–7, however, when we had unquestionably established our naval superiority over our neighbours, a reaction set in, the sum required for construction and armour-plates that year being £663,280, although the French had reduced their expenditure to £420,000; and in 1867–8 the amount was £860,559 for construction, and £310,360 for armour-plates, or a total of £1,170,919. What reason could be given for that increase of £448,000 last year, and of £491,000 this year? Why was it that while the French outlay was decreasing ours was increasing? Had this country gone back to the state of panic which existed in 1861? With regard to the men, we had in 1861–2, 59,000 seamen, including

  945
  boys and the Coastguard, but not including the 18,000 Marines. In successive years the numbers declined to 58,050, 57,000 53,000, and 52,000, till in 1866–7 it was 51,450; but this year it was again rising, the number being 52,912. He could not see any reason for this. As for the French, they had in 1864–5 30,473 officers and men, against our 53,000, not including the Coastguard, and this year they had 27,589, while we had 52,912. I trust the above figures from official sources, French and English, will sufficiently dispose of the relative powers of the French and English navies. With regard to the cost of the effective service, there was an increase of £1,153,218 in 1859–60, the amount being £8,259,299, and this was £626,360 above the effective Estimates for 1858–9, and it went on increasing till 1862–3, in which the decrease for the effective service was £450,378. The total charge for the effective services in 1862–3 was £10,228,029; for 1863–4, decrease, £1,139,773. In 1864–5, decrease, £357,502. In 1865–6 the decrease was £348,567. In 1866–7 there was a nominal decrease in the effective services of £105,633, which unhappily turned out to be wrong. In 1867–8 the deficit in the effective charge is £480,360. He could not understand why the reduction should have been interrupted during the last two years. Our Estimates for 1866–7 was £10,388,153, whereas the French credits were only £5,802,059, or but little more than half; and for 1867–8 their expenditure was £5,926,253, being an increase of £33,083, while ours was £10,926,253, being an increase of £491,518. He thought that as the Admiralty had succeeded in effecting a reduction for several years, that reduction might be continued, especially as we were not in danger of being attacked by any other navy, whether European or American. He wished, also, to know why the expenditure for 1863–4, which was estimated at £10,462,322, was stated the following year to have been £10,472,298; and why that for 1864–5, which was estimated at £10,169,022, was afterwards corrected, first to £10,507,792, and subsequently to £10,483,678. For 1865–6 there had also been three different statements, the first being £10,152,905, the second £10,234,633, and the third £10,071,805; and for 1866–7 there had already been two, and there would probably next year be another, so that Parliament did not
  946
  know the actual expenditure of any year until the lapse of three years. In fact, all the figures I have given from the Estimates are little better than approximations subject to a variety of subsequent corrections, probably owing to the looseness of the Estimates. One instance of reckless cost in this department was to be found in the large number of gunboats we had in the China seas, which was stated by the noble Lord to be 30, though a late distributive return he had just received from China, dated on the 1st of February, made the fleet to consist of 44 vessels, eight of them being hospital and store ships, or without captains. But taking the noble Lord's number as a correct statement of our naval force in those waters, what on earth, he asked, could be the use of 36 gunboats on the China station? A single gunboat was able to destroy a fleet of pirate junks; and though the enemy's boats had from 12 to 14 heavy guns on board, they could be run into and set on fire by one of our gunboats with the greatest ease, and of this there were many instances. Why, then, were 36 required, or why should there be 12 lying in Hong Kong Harbour, and spending the taxes of the country and rendering no service, except sallying out when there was an intimation of pirates? Why were we to be the protectors of the whole world in that part? Why were we to be made the maritime police, as it were, in the Chinese seas? France, America, and other countries were carrying on an increasing trade with China, and ought to bear a share in the maritime police. Under any circumstances, six, or at most ten, gunboats would be sufficient for the purpose of protecting our trade, and there was in reality no excuse for employing more. On these grounds he trusted that the present Admiralty would follow the good example set by their predecessors for four years, and reduce these Estimates, thus taking one step towards the reduction of the national taxation, which, in conjunction with the municipal taxes, was crushing the taxpayers of the country.
  MR. GRAVESregretted that the debate had taken so wide a range as it had done, though perhaps it was unavoidable. Still, he could not help thinking that to mix up questions of great national policy with points of minute detail, as had been done in the present instance, was only to prejudice both. There was no man on whose judgment he placed greater re-

  947
  liance than the hon. Member who opened the debate, and there were some points to which he adverted in which he (Mr. Graves) heartily concurred, especially in thinking that the time had come when our ships of war should cease to carry specie, and also in thinking that the number of boys entered for the navy should be increased. He believed that the number of boys entered on the Estimate of this year was wholly inadequate to supply the annual waste in the navy; and he adhered to the statement he made last year, that it would require yearly 1,500 more boys than were entered to replace the loss of men in the service. He might here state a fact which had recently come to his knowledge, that, notwithstanding every effort at our home ports to obtain seamen, only 150 had been engaged during the past eight months, and the present number was 500 short of the number voted. But the great question was our policy in connection with the employment of our squadrons on foreign stations. He wished to deal with that question, not only as it affected the maintenance of national interests, but also as it affected the protection of our commerce, a view which he thought had been somewhat overlooked by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stansfeld), who laid the weight of his arguments on the foreign policy of this country. With regard to our ships in the China seas, the utility of which had been questioned by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, the reason why they were required was that we had more to guard there than all other nations put together; we had in the Chinese seas a trade direct and indirect, amounting to not less than £40,000,000 per annum, carried on under treaties which are best respected when backed by British gunboats. It was notorious that those seas were still infested by pirates. Indeed, notwithstanding the presence of our squadron twenty-five merchant ships were attacked by pirates last year, so that piracy had not been suppressed. No one will for a moment suppose our naval officers are wanting in zeal or energy or that the existence of piracy can be attributed to them. Possibly our ships were too slow for the purpose of pursuit, and it was with a view of supplying faster vessels that the construction of so many gunboats was now proposed. He found by a Return moved for last year that seventy-one pirate junks were destroyed and 220 men captured and handed over to the Chinese authorities. So long, therefore,
  948
  as piracy existed we must maintain a force there for the protection of a commerce—which, great as it is, is yet but in its infancy. He admitted, however, that other nations ought to co-operate with us in that service, ten of the vessels which had been captured last year belonged to foreigners, and it was reasonable they should assist; but instead of withdrawing our squadron we ought first to induce other Powers to enter into an arrangement, and then consider to what extent we could reduce our force. As to Japan, where a reduction had also been proposed, it was well-known that we were forcing a trade, there being large inland seas in which our commerce required protection; and until we were on terms of greater amity with that country, we were more likely to command respect by maintaining a good force at that station. A few years since and England had no trade with Japan, it now amounts to millions and with promise of a brilliant opening for British enterprise. He thought we might make a considerable reduction on our African station by sending out suitable vessels of greater speed. The vessels which were on that station were not of that character, they were most unsuitable. In reference to that point he should observe that he felt much surprise at the sending out of the Bristol to the African coast, for she was much too large and unmanagable a vessel to be fit for such a service. The natives on the coast were becoming attached to regular trade, and, as that feeling spread, there would not be the same occasion as had formerly existed for a large squadron there. With respect to the Mediterranean and the North-American stations, he believed that the amount of the force we should maintain at either of them must depend mainly on the state of the political horison; and that was a point with which it would be impossible for the Committee to deal. As to our station on the coast of South America, he thought that as long as the Republics on that coast made war their normal condition, our commercial interests would require a good force in that direction. On the Pacific station, from Valparaiso to Vancouver's Island, we had sixteen ships and 3,800 men. Comparing our squadron with the American squadron on that coast—and he did not think we should have our squadron there much below that of any other country—he found that the Americans had twenty-eight ships and very nearly the same number of men, but comprising an armament greatly supe-

  949
  rior to ours, as recent events at Valparaiso sufficiently showed. Our vessels were divided into two squadrons, North and South, the Admiral's head-quarters being Vancouver's Island, a commodore having charge of the South Pacific. Now, he thought it would be better for all purposes that this arrangement should be reversed, and that the Admiral should be where our interests demanded his constant presence. On the whole, he thought that our foreign squadrons were not larger than the interests of our commerce demanded; but putting aside the commercial point, he believed the interests of the navy required that we should keep up our foreign squadrons. It appeared to him that the only redeeming feature of our naval expenditure was our foreign squadrons. The magnificent discipline which was enforced on those stations served more than anything else to keep up the morale of the navy and the efficiency of the ships. Those stations were schools for our officers and seamen, and what should we do with our 6,000 or 7,000 boys if it were not for the means which the ships in the foreign squadrons afforded for their employment and instruction? Was it by serving in iron-clads, lying rusting in our home ports, that we could hope to make blue jackets of these boys—he thought not—if it be a matter of economy he ventured to think it might be secured better at home than abroad. While he had great reliance on the judgment of his hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract, yet, as the opinions put before the House were so conflicting, he should like to know whether the plan proposed by his hon. Friend had been introduced with the approval of men of experience in the navy. The noble Lord the late Secretary fur the Navy (Lord Clarence Paget) was a naval officer of great experience, and always anxious for economy where a saving could be judiciously effected; yet what had he said when moving the Navy Estimates last year?—
  "And now, Sir, with regard to the Vote for the personnel of the navy. We take this year, as I will presently show, a somewhat smaller force of men, and consequently our Vote for the personnel of the navy will be less during the year 1866–7, than it was during the present year. And here, again, I want to call the particular attention of the Committee to what our prospects are in future years. Now, it is all very well to talk of reducing the naval expenditure, but the fact is, that I cannot hold out any hopes of a reduction in that which principally governs the expenditure of the navy—the number of seamen of the fleet. We have carried on during the
  950
  last two years a gradual reduction of our seamen to what has come to be a very considerable diminution; but if we are to make the naval force which we have afloat adequate to the demands upon it, that reduction cannot go on. I have a paper here which, if hon. Gentlemen wish me to quote from, will show that, so far from there being a prospect of further diminution of our fleet, we are pressed from all quarters of the Globe for additional assistance. We are pressed from China. We are told that the seas there are infested with pirates, and large demands are made upon us for additional forces. In Japan they tell us that, in order to carry out the treaties which have been made with the Tycoon, we must be prepared to have a large force in the inland sea. In the River Plate, Chile, Peru, the presence of ships is asked for, and let it be remembered that most of all these demands come at the desire of our merchants, In short, such are the calls upon the Admiralty that I confess I should be deceiving the Committee if I were to hold out a prospect of any further reduction in the number of men."—[3 Hansard, clxxxi. 1144.]
  That opinion had recently been confirmed by the distinguished nobleman who had so long presided over the Admiralty. In a pamphlet which, though it did not bear his Grace's name, was known to have been written by the Duke of Somerset, he stated
  "That the efficiency of the navy depended on the number of men, and those who insisted on the efficiency of the navy would not be willing to reduce the number of men."
  Now, on examining into the reductions which have taken place of late years, he found that in 1860 the number of ships was 178, and the number of seamen, boys, and marines 35,000. In 1866, the number of ships was 146, and that of the seamen, boys, and marines 26,000; being a decrease of thirty-two ships and 9,000 men. It was now proposed to reduce the men by 7,200 more, which, with the previous reduction of 9,000, would make the reduction in eight years amount to 50 per cent; while during the same time our trade had increased 20 per cent. [Mr. CHILDERS said, he had not proposed such a reduction as his hon. Friend stated.] He would not do his hon. Friend any injustice. It was proposed that we should reduce the number of our seamen by some 7,000 men, and that we should substitute a flying squadron at Lisbon which would add 4,000 men. He (Mr. Graves) could conceive of nothing more valuable or useful than such a squadron in a national point of view, and he would rejoice to see such an addition; but it would not be valuable for the protection of our commerce, which required vessels to be on the spot where our trade was carried on.

  951
  The hon. Member had alluded to the progress which had been made in improving and extending the electric telegraph, and argued that the institution of a flying squadron would be useful because orders could be flashed to them ordering them to repair instantly to particular parts of the Globe where British interests were at stake. He (Mr. Graves) thought, however, that a very different conclusion could be deduced from the present efficiency of our telegraph system, and that in fact the argument of the hon. Member for Pontefract could be brought to bear against the value of a flying squadron. If, for instance, any complication were suddenly to arise abroad, our diplomatic agents would telegraph to the Foreign Office, who in return would send back instructions by the same medium, for diplomatic communications must in future rely on the telegraph rather than the special messenger. When these instructions arrived it was of the utmost moment that we should have the means of enforcing whatever might be our demands, and for this reason it was essential to have vessels near at hand, rather than appearing on the scene of action some three months after the necessity had passed away. Looked at in this light, the telegraph was rather an argument for carrying out our present system than abolishing it and establishing a flying squadron, simply as a substitute. In the absence of the reasons for which the recommendation was made, he must decline to adopt it; he was inclined to think that, until a higher code of International Law was accepted by European nations, under which private property would be exempted from capture at sea, we ought to keep up efficient fleets for the protection of our commerce and the maintenance of England's honour. He now came to what might be termed the domestic administration of the navy, and here he wished to express his admiration of the lucid speech with which the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty had introduced the Estimates. No part of that statement was received with more satisfaction than the announcement of the disposal of useless vessels; but he was somewhat surprised that those vessels, with a tonnage of 30,000, had realized only £85,000. Why could not one or two of our condemned docks have been used for the purpose of breaking them up, and if they could have been broken up there instead of by private individuals, why were the pro-
  952
  fits realized by private individuals to be lost to the public Exchequer? It could not be that the cost of breaking up was more in the public than in private yards, for if so, a large and awkward question arose. The thirteen vessels in question realized £85,000, or an average of about £6,700 each, and he had made some calculations to show what amount they would have produced if they had been broken up in Her Majesty's Dockyards. The figures he was about to read to the House were rather under than above the mark, and on this point be challenged contradiction. The copper and other metal from each of these vessels would fetch £7,500; the machinery and boilers, £2,500; and other materials and stores on board, £2,000. That would give a total of nearly £12,000. From that sum, however, be would deduct 9s. per ton for the labour of breaking up, 5 per cent for auction fees, and the cost of the coal consumed in towing the vessels to Devonport or the Thames dockyards, amounting altogether to £2,000. Thus each vessel would realize £10,000 net, and the whole number £130,000; whereas only £85,000 had been actually realized by the Admiralty. He could not learn that these vessels were disposed of by public advertisement, or that there were more than two or three tenders invited, he would be curious to see the conditions of sale and the quantity of stores included; he believed that his Estimates were greatly below the truth, and that it would be found a very large sum had been sacrificed by the anxiety to get the credits for the Estimates. On the subject of the constructive portion of our naval administration, he was compelled to speak adversely, though he did so in no narrow and carping spirit. He must confess, looking at our enormous expenditure, we were further off than we had a right to expect from obtaining a swift, handy, and sea-going iron-clad; he would not go back over old ground, he would merely take the results of the last twelve months. And first, with regard to the three ships of the Vixen class, which were the lowest in the scale, being about 800 tons—it was found that on the trial trip of the Vixen off the Land's End, she met with bad weather and was forced to bear up. On return to port the ship's company memorialized the Admiralty, asking that they might be removed from that vessel, as she was entirely unseaworthy, and he understood that their request was granted, that the Vixen was put out of

  953
  commission, and that she was now lying with her sister ships as they were launched, perfect useless. Then, again, with respect to the Amazon class, which he had ventured last Session to predict would be unsuitable for the service for which they were designed. As soon as the present Board of Admiralty came into office he understood an order wits issued that the two vessels of that class, then uncommenced, should be altered, and their length increased twenty-five feet or thirty feet, the same as the Danœ. Accordingly, these vessels, he understood, had been altered from the original design, and it is fair to infer that the other five would also have been improved if the proposed alteration had not amounted to a total re-construction. What good these vessels in their improved shape were to do he could not say; bit the facts he had mentioned showed that there was an absence of any settled system of design for our ships-of-war. With regard to the armour-plated vessels, the most important class of all, he regretted that the Returns moved for by the hon. Member for Birkenhead and by himself, and which had been that evening laid upon the table, were not yet in the hands of Members. From the information, however, which he had received, he believed it would be found that the trials of vessels last autumn showed a deficiency and inequality in speed, a great want of fuel-carrying space, a large consumption of fuel, and, worse than all, an unsteadiness at sea, which rendered them almost useless for offensive or defensive puposes, in anything beyond a moderate breeze. The Bellerophon and Lord Clyde, our newest vessels, in an Atlantic swell, with the wind at the force of 6 or 7, rolled through an arc of 34 degrees; what they would do in a gale of wind he would leave hon. Members to draw their own conclusions. He believed they would tear themselves to pieces; and that they would be practically unseaworthy. Besides, such a roll exposed the most vulnerable part of the ship to attack to the smallest vessel which could fight with a steady platform. In the same breeze the Achilles rolled only through an arc of 16 degrees, and, as he was informed, shot away her target, while the other vessels dared not open their ports nor loosen their guns. Comparing the tonnage, horse-power, and speed of the Achilles (6,121 tons, 5,724 horse-power), and the Bellerophon (4,270 tons, 6,048 horse-power), and yet the Achilles steams away from the Bellerophon, he asked, when a vessel was
  954
  proved to be eminently successful and to go faster through the water with 50 per cent greater tonnage than another of the same horse-power, why we could not reduce the model and apply it, instead of retaining inferior model, or be continuously indulging in these unsuccessful experiments? He would next pass on to what he considered to be the greatest blot of all upon the efficiency of their ships, and that was the enormous consumption of fuel. Scarcely any of our newest vessels could carry five clays' full steaming fuel. The Bellerophon did not carry four day's fuel, and he would ask how a vessel could be considered sea-going which depended so much upon steam, but which could carry only 3½ or 4 days' fuel on board? And yet this ship cannot be trusted under canvas, for she will not come round in stays. Last year he ventured to call attention to scientific and mechanical appliances, which he showed had answered admirably in economizing the consumption of fuel in the mercantile navy. The firm he then referred to had during last year launched several vessels—indeed, he might say one in every eighteen working days. On the 25th of July last they wrote to the Admiralty—
  "As patentees of the double-cylinder engines we are not entirely unknown to my Lords, having, in the year 1860, received an order for a set of these engines for Her Majesty's ship Constance, and though we can confidently point to the results, both in economy of fuel and the speed obtained by that ship on her trials, we laboured under great disadvantages owing to her peculiar sectional form obliging us to put in two medium-sized cylinders in place of one larger one, thus adding to the weight and space occupied. Since then, our greater experience in the working of these engines has enabled us to make important improvements, and we are now prepared to make our engines and boilers to occupy less space and equal weight with those of any other builders, while in fuel we venture to assert that they effect a saving of 33 per cent at full speed, graduating to 20 per cent at half speed, or, in other words, we will undertake to steam at full speed with a given quantity of coal at least one-half further than the single cylinder engines of the most approved principle are capable of doing."
  Up to this time no notice had been taken of that offer. He was glad that the Admiralty intended to build such a ship as the Inconstant; and, seeing that America had already turned out six such vessels, not armour-clad but possessing great speed, he hoped that the advantages of speed combined with economy of fuel would be considered, and that it would be made a sine quâ non in the contracts that ten-

  955
  ders should state the number of miles the engines would run upon a given quantity of fuel. He questioned the economy and judiciousness of putting old engines into the new gunboats for India and China, inasmuch as new engines would drive at the same speed with half the consumption of coal, which was £4 a ton in China, so that new machinery would be the cheapest in the long run—new boilers would be required—the engines alone could be utilized—and in his opinion it would be wiser to break them up for old iron rather than injure the efficiency of this new class of vessel. The consumption of the two-high-pressure engines was not less than 1,200 cwt. per hour for each vessel, whilst engines of the newest construction could accomplish the same speed at half that consumption of fuel; and, considering that coals cost £4 per ton in China, the economy must be self-evident, and would in a very short time pay for the new engines. It was difficult to reconcile this adherence to old machinery with the fact that engines of 800 horse-power, ordered three or four years ago from an eminent Glasgow firm, at a cost of £40,000, had never left their premises, and had recently been re-sold by the Admiralty to the makers for £12,000. Could it be that, notwithstanding that engines of this class had been wanted, such great improvements had been made since they were ordered that it was considered desirable to sacrifice £28,000 rather than use these engines? Whatever the cause may have been, the circumstance was most unaccountable to him, and he hoped would be explained. What he found fault with was the system; and he implored the right hon. Gentleman now at the head of the Admiralty to take up this question with a full determination, if possible, to wipe away this stain from our national character for administration.
  MR. SEELYsaid, he wished to make a few observations upon the mode in which the navy accounts were presented to that House. Business men expected to find in accounts not merely what money was received, but what was got for that money. In these Estimates the Admiralty asked for upwards of £10,000,000. In showing the application of this money they were tolerably clear with regard to officers and seamen, and very precise as to the amount required for the provisions of the seamen. But no precise information was given as to the amount of money required for building and repairing ships, this amount being
  956
  scattered through several Votes. It might be said that Vote 6, which was the Vote for the salaries and wages of men in the dockyards, was for shipbuilding purposes; but he questioned whether the whole of the Vote ought to be so appropriated. That Vote included a sum, for instance, for the admiral-superintendent at Malta, of £1,930, including his sea pay: for the flag-lieutenant, £219, and for the domestics of the admiral-superintendent £353. But the commander-in-chief at Malta required a house, and that was entered in this Vote as £140 a year. What, he asked, had the commander-in-chief's house to do with shipbuilding? In fact, many items were charged to shipbuilding that should be omitted, and many omitted that should be charged. At Malta 298 men were employed in the dockyard; but the cost for supervision, including the pay of the admiral and flag-lieutenants, was more than 100 per cent on the wages of the men, all of which he believed was charged to ships. To ascertain the cost of any ship with any accuracy, one had first to go through the Navy Estimates, which gave details not elsewhere found—then the navy statement of savings and deficiencies, which showed the amount expended in comparison with the money voted; thirdly, the manufacturing accounts, which gave the cost of the articles made for shipbuilding, as well as the rate book value thereof, at which latter sum all articles were charged to ships; and lastly, the navy ships' accounts. Great alterations appeared in the mode of presenting the navy ships' account. Up to 1861 they had simply the wages and materials used in and upon the ship included in the cost of the ships; from 1861 to 1863–4, the wages and materials used outside the ships, but incidental to shipbuilding, were added. This increased cost about 20 per cent; and in 1864–5, wages to foremen and other items were charged, so that something like 40 per cent was added to the cost of wages and materials, or to the cost of ships as given up to 1861. Taking these variations into account, the Committee would perceive how difficult it was for any one to ascertain what the actual cost of a ship was. The process of going through all these accounts, adding items omitted, he had to pursue with respect to the Frederick William (about whose cost he and Sir John Pakington differed), which had been several years in building; and in order to know what this ship cost it was

  957
  necessary to refer to successive Estimates, to receipts and expenditure, and to the navy ships' accounts, and to the manufacturing accounts, in order to see the difference between the actual cost of materials put in a ship and the rate book price of the said materials, at which latter sum materials were charged to the ships. For instance, in 1863–4 the articles made, cost no less than £92,374 over and above the rate book price, and this ought to be added to the cost of ships. As a particular example of this method, and to show to what errors it might lead, three 15-inch topsail yards were charged to the ships at the rate book price of £150, but they cost £430. No wonder, then, that different parties should estimate the cost of ships, &c., variously with such data before them. A remarkable instance to elucidate this might be quoted from a pamphlet supposed to have been written by the noble Duke who a short time ago was at the head of the Admiralty. The pamphlet stated that about £10,000,000 had been required by the Admiralty for shipbuilding in the course of six years. The noble Duke must have calculated only the wages and materials used in the ships themselves—not even all the materials and wages used for shipbuilding, which in the years he spoke of amounted to (or the ships built reckoned as the Admiralty reckoned up to 1860–1) £10,036,626; but if he had calculated the cost of ships as the Admiralty calculated them in 1861–2 to 1863–4—that is, taking all the wages and materials used in and about or incidental to shipbuilding—the amount would have swelled to £12,259,569; and if he had calculated them as ships were calculated in 1864–5 by the Admiralty, when wages of foremen and other items were for the first time added, they would have swelled to £14,172,609. The effect of this would be that a ship might be calculated to cost on one set of data—that is, as ships were calculated up to 1861—£100,000; while calculated on another set of data—as calculated from 1861 to 1863–4—£120,000; and if as in 1864–5, the amount might be put at £140,000. It was of the utmost importance, therefore, that they should have clear and precise accounts, showing the amount received and the amount expended for shipbuilding purposes. The accounts should be made out, not as now, by lumping a great part of the expenditure for all dockyards in the gross, and charging to ships pro rotâ, but
  958
  for each dockyard separately. The House should have, as it had been promised, an account of the stock of stores at the beginning of the year; the amount of money received for shipbuilding purposes during the year; the amount of work done during the year; and the quantity of stock left on hand at the close of each year for each dockyard, as well as for the whole of the dockyards. With regard to the charge to ships for incidental expenses, it hail been said by the noble Duke lately at the head of the Admiralty that it would be necessary to re-consider how many of the incidental expenses should be continued to be charged in the cost of ships. That might be a very necessary question; but he urged upon the House that if they did not charge the incidental expenses to the cost of ships they would, nevertheless, have to pay them. The pensions paid to artificers ought to be included in the cost of ships, and next year he was glad to say they would be. Again, the charge added by the Admiralty to ships for interest on plant, stock, &c., amounting in 1864–5 to £46,398, was so small, so much below what the correct charge should be, as to be neither more nor less than ridiculous. With regard to the manufacture of ropes, on the question of hand spinning as compared with spinning by machinery, it would be found that in some cases there was little or no difference between the cost of the two; and although the erection of machinery for machine spinning had been strongly recommended, he hoped the Board of Admiralty would not, without inquiry, blindly rush away with the idea that it was cheaper in all cases to employ machinery than hand labour. He understood that the Admiralty were now putting up extensive machinery at Devonport, at a cost of from £20,000 to £23,000, for spinning ropes; and if he was not misinformed, that might be altogether obviated by a small expenditure at the Chatham ropery, which would enable the Government to produce all the ropes required for the navy there. It would surely be much cheaper to manufacture all the ropes required at one place instead of distributing the manufacture to several dockyards. It had been urged by the Duke of Somerset and the right hon. Baronet (Sir John Pakington) that it was impossible to build ships so cheaply at the Royal as at private dockyards; but he very much questioned that con-

  959
  clusion. The Royal Dockyards were certainly placed at one disadvantage, inasmuch as the managers of the Royal Dockyards had not the pecuniary interest in good management which was felt by the managers of private yards. But he believed it was possible to get over the difficulty to some extent, and to give the managers of Royal Dockyards some interest in the economical production of ships, and if that could be done the Royal Dockyards would have several advantages over private yards. The Royal yards possessed unlimited credit, and were never compelled, like private contractors, to go to the worst market and to force sales. They had no necessity to employ travellers or to seek by other means to obtain orders; they only paid 3 per cent interest instead of 5 per cent on money obtained, and they had no profit to make, while private contractors would not be satisfied with less than 10 per cent clear of interest. If the managers of the Royal Dockyards were well paid, and were treated fairly and liberally, there would be numbers of men anxious to be employed in those yards in preference to any private yards. The true principle was to pay men liberally, and to give honour where honour was due; but so long as the present wretched and bad system of putting men at the head of establishments when they knew nothing about the work to be done, was continued, so long they might depend upon it they would have extravagance and inefficiency. The evils of the present system were shown by its results. Some reference had been made to the excess of timber in the Royal Dockyards; but he did not agree with the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) that the House itself was more to blame on that point than the late Government. The late Government forced the purchase of the various lots of timber upon the House. During the ten years from 1833 to 1842, £2,274,708 was spent for timber, or £227,470 per year; during the ten years from 1842 to 1852, £3,609,152, or £360,915 per year, was spent for the same purpose; and during the ten years from 1852 to 1862, £5,209,757, or £520,975 per year, was spent on the same account. In the three years from 1859 to 1862, when the Warrior was laid down and iron ships were brought forward, the yearly average cost of timber had reached the enormous sum of £795,783; and twice during these three years, first, on the 23rd May, 1861,
  960
  Mr. Lindsay moved to reduce the Vote for timber by £300,000; and secondly, on the 27th February,1862, by £100,000, and divided the House on both occasions and was defeated, almost solely by the votes of Members of the Government. The Votes also granted by the House since (from 1862 to 1865) for timber had been exceeded by the expenditure by £275,000. Under a proper system of management this vast accumulation of timber, a great portion of which had now to be sold at a considerable sacrifice, could not have taken place. In the item, anchors and cables, he found the same increasing expenditure. In the ten years from 1833 to 1842 the amount spent under that head averaged, anchors £1,355, and cables £11,680 per year; in the ten years from 1842 to 1852 it had reached, anchors £16,948, cables £16,860 per year; and in the ten years from 1852 to 1862 it was at the rate of anchors £16,586, cables £33,714 per year. The fault was that they went on spending money for things that they did not want, and for what purpose nobody could tell. He wished to refer to one point connected with the iron ballast. He had asked the noble Lord if he could give the Returns of the iron ballast, stating the quantity in the United Kingdom and abroad. It was stated that there was no ballast in the country beyond what was included in the Returns printed on his Motion. In speaking of this, he must in justice say that he believed that there was no one more inclined than the noble Lord the Secretary for the Admiralty to make the best of that iron ballast, for he had no prejudices, he had given no opinion, and was anxious to make the most he could of the stock. If he (Mr. Seely) was correctly informed, there were at Devonport and Keyham 3,000 or 4,000 tons of these "pigs" which were not included in the Returns to that House; and he was further told that when the Great Eastern was launched some hundreds of tons were lent to the Great Ship Company, which he was told had not yet all been returned to the Admiralty. He was told that part of this was returned, but that a message had been sent that the Admiralty did not want more of such stuff; and he believed that a good deal had not been fished up from the river, and he was not sure whether a portion of this might not yet be found in the Mill wall Yard. If this were the fact, it showed how loose must be the manner in which the Admiralty kept

  961
  their accounts, and he wished to impress upon them the necessity of having precise accounts of what became of the stock, of the work done, and of the money received. He would call the attention of the Committee to the increasing, and he thought unnecessary expenditure connected with medical superintendence. At Sheerness Dockyard there was a staff-surgeon at £500 per year, and close to, lay the Formidable, flag-ship, which had on board altogether five surgeons. But, besides this, there was a guard ship, the Cumberland, close to, on board of which there were four surgeons; that was altogether nine surgeons on shipboard, whose pay was £2,813, and one in the dockyard at £500 per year. How did it happen that some of these surgeons on ships could not attend to men in the dockyard? Deptford had a staff-surgeon, with a salary of £450 for the shipbuilding department, and another at £450, with a dispensary assistant at £100 per year for the victualling and transport department (and every staff-surgeon had a house in the dockyard). At Woolwich there was a staff-surgeon having £500 a year, and house-rent £75; there was likewise an assistant-surgeon of H.M.S. Fisgard at £40, and close by there was a marine infirmary, with a medical inspector and assistant-surgeons. The total salaries of these latter gentlemen with allowances amounted this year to £1,310; last year they were £1,130, and the year before only £1,000; and during this increase of salaries the wages of matrons, nurses, and other inferior servants, and clothing for nurses, had decreased as follows:—in 1864–5 the amount was £2,251; in 1865–6, £2,054; in 1866–7, £2,003; in 1867–8, £1,903; so that from this it would appear that there was less work to be done in 1867–8 than in former years. At the same dockyard there was a commodore superintendent, who was to have £1,250 this year, whereas last year he had £1,000. He hoped to have an explanation of the cause of this advance. In this Marine Infantry Hospital, the Deputy Inspector General of the hospital was put down to receive upwards of £600 this year, whereas it was £570 last year, and £511 in the previous year; the two assistant-surgeons were to receive £456 this year, whereas two years ago it was £419, and the allowances this year were £215, last year £141, and the year preceding £70. He wished to be informed of the reason of such increase, which, in respect of the
  962
  allowances, had increased threefold in two years. If expenses went on increasing at this rate they would soon be something enormous. He wished to know why, when there was an infirmary close to the dockyard gates, its advantages should not be utilized. There was a Mr. Hay, a chemist, who was receiving £400 a year at Portsmonth, and there was also a Mr. Hay who had invented a process for coating ship with a particular preparation. If, as he (Mr. Seely) had been informed, the same gentleman appeared in both characters, he protested against the principle of a gentleman appearing in a capacity where he had an interest in selling his own articles. At Portsmouth Dockyard there was a surgeon and assistant-surgeon, having together £800 per year. Close to was Forton Hospital. The medical expenses had increased at Forton for the Royal Marines from £918 two years ago to £1,178 this year, the wages of matrons, nurses, servants, and clothes for nurses remaining the same, and being only £47, the patients being about fifteen in number, although there was an infirmary for marine artillery at Fort Cumberland, which was within a short distance. At Haslar, which was within a mile of Forton, he found a similar increase in the medical staff. The expence this year for Haslar was £4,957; two years ago it was only £3,956. At Fort Cumberland the medical salaries had increased from £798 in 1865–6 to £1,197 in 1867–8, the wages of matrons, nurses, and clothes for nurses, remaining the same—namely, £251. Close to Portsmouth Dockyard was the flag-ship Victory, and the guardship of reserve Asia—nine surgeons being on the books of these ships at a total salary of £3,156. Surely some explanation of these items of increase ought to be given, and this vast amount of medical superintendence could not be required at and near Portsmouth. There was a similar increase of expenditure at Devonport, Chatham, and at Plymouth. At Malta the charge for the medical establishment had advanced from £1,257, which it was two years ago, to £1,682. The charge for gas and water at all the dockyards was continually increasing. The hon. Member for Pontefract had put before the House a plan for diminishing the number of our seamen and still maintaining our fleet in a state of efficiency. One branch of the service might be dispensed with altogether, and that was the Coastguard afloat, numbering 2,950 men. The total Vote for

  963
  pay and provisions for these men this year was £184,528, and the Vote for civil superintendence, &c., amounted to £40,000, so that £224,528 per year might be saved without really affecting the efficiency of the navy, for he understood that these ships were of no use whatever, either for the prevention of smuggling or as training ships. There was also a large expenditure upon the training ships, which he was told were of very little value, as they were rarely fully manned, and their anchors were seldom weighed. Then with regard to Greenwich Hospital, the accounts showed a constant increase, the charge for medical officers and allowances to them this year being £3,280 against £1,869 last year. It appeared to him that in all these matters, to which the public had not paid much attention, there had been a continual and gradual increase, and it was principally in these small items of hundreds that the public money was squandered away.
  MR. SHAW-LEFEVREsuggested that the discussion with regard to the dockyard management and the Admiralty organization might be postponed until the system of re-organization promised by the right hon. Gentleman opposite was before the House. Before he adverted to the subject introduced by the hon. Member for Pontefract, he would first say a few words on the explanation giveh by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich with respect to the state in which he found the navy when he entered office. He regretted that the right hon. Baronet did not make that explanation a little earlier. A misapprehension had been allowed to exist for several months; for it now appeared that the right hon. Baronet did not refer to the general state of the navy, but to small vessels only. The hon. Member for Pontefract had referred to the foreign squadrons, and upon examination it would be found that the increase in the Estimates of the present year was mainly due to the small class of vessels which the Board of Admiralty proposed to build. It was intended to build thirty-three of these vessels, and the cost of them could not be less than £700,000. He suggested that the building of some of those vessels should be postponed, so that a portion of the expense might be thrown on another year. The right hon. Gentleman opposite had referred to the number of vessels broken up and sold during the last six years; but he did not state the
  964
  number that had been built within the same period. Now, it appeared by a Return he had from 1860 up to last August, when the present Board of Admiralty came into office, 162 vessels had been broken up or sold out of the navy, and 140 were added. Of those removed there were 45 paddle-wheel steamers, 87 gunboats and gunvessels, 11 sloops and corvettes, 11 line-of-battle ships and frigates. Of those added there were 14 paddle steamers, 28 gunboats, 24 sloops and corvettes, 19 frigates, 15 line-of-battle ships, and 30 iron-clads. This showed a decrease of 52 gunboats and 31 paddle steamers, and an increase of 34 sloops, corvettes, and frigates, and 30 iron-clads. The real efficiency of the navy was therefore very greatly increased. At the same time, he admitted that there had been a falling off in the number of gunboats. He found that we had altogether 122 vessels under 1,000 tons in commission, which were well described by the noble Lord as "cut and run" vessels. Of these, 102 were screw steamers, and 20 paddle steamers; 16 were on the North-American station, 29 in China, 9 in the Mediterranean, 7 in the East Indies and at the Cape, 7 on the South East Coast of America, 16 on the West Coast of Africa, 7 in the Pacific—91 out of 122 being on foreign stations. If, as his hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract had argued, it was possible to diminish the force of our foreign squadrons, there would be the less necessity for increasing the number of this class of vessels. Upon the question of the policy of maintaining these squadrons he did not mean at that late hour to follow his hon. Friend; but he would venture to say one or two words with reference to two of these squadrons—that in North America and the China squadron. The North-American squadron had been increased from 14 vessels in 1862 to 41 in 1864, during the Civil War in America; it had now been reduced to 29 vessels; but as the American navy had been reduced to a peace footing, he thought the time had now come when our force in that part of the world might be safely reduced to what it was in 1862–14 vessels. If we went to war with America, which no hon. Gentleman anticipated, hardly any of these vessels would be fit to cope with the Monitors that would be brought against them on the coasts of the United States. We should have to recall nearly the whole of them, or supplement them with vessels of

  965
  a very different kind. Again, the China squadron had been doubled within the last twelve years. Its efficiency was also very greatly increased by the substitution of steamers for sailing vessels. No doubt our trade had vastly increased during the same period; but he thought the time had come when we should endeavour to secure the co-operation of America, Germany, and France against the pirates. The Chinese Government should also be required to pay for keeping down pirates. Piracy could not, in fact, be put down externally; it was a disease, and arose very much from the character and action of the Chinese Government itself; and it was by making the Government feel the responsibilities of its position by compelling it to fulfil its international obligations, that the best prospect lay of putting down piracy. Objections had been made to the concentration and reductions proposed by his hon. Friend. The hon. Member for Liverpool had stated that one of the principal benefits arising from these foreign squadrons was the training of the men and officers, and the instruction of officers in international Law. But these squadrons were very often stationary; they very seldom came together for the purpose of squadron exercise. Besides, the advantages of the training referred to would be equally or better gained by a flying squadron. And as to training officers in International Law, if that could for a moment be considered as a reason for maintaining these expensive squadrons, it was to be observed that it was daily becoming of less importance in consequence of the improvement in the means of communication, which rendered it unnecessary for officers to act upon their own responsibility. The great point of his hon. Friend's observations was to effect greater concentration of our force, and thus, while effecting a considerable reduction of force and expenditure, an increase would be gained both for purposes of offence and defence. What occurred at Valparaiso showed how little protection a fleet could give to British property. In that case our Admiral in command of the fleet had remained as a spectator while the property of British merchants was destroyed by the bombardment of Spanish vessels. In the opinion of the Government he had acted rightly; because to interfere would have been equivalent to a declaration of war with Spain—and if any wrong was done it should be the subject of direct negotiations between the two
  966
  Governments, and ought not to be decided by the Admiral on the spot. If that were rightly decided, for what purpose did we maintain so large a fleet there? The First Lord of the Admiralty had asserted that the concentration of our squadrons nearer home would alarm European Powers, and lead to increased activity in the building of ships on their part. But surely that was building best evidence that such a concentration would give us greater power both for defence and offence, and would therefore be an advantageous step. There would be no danger to the country in a reduction of the number of men. He had during last autumn visited the American dockyards, and he could confirm the statement made by his hon. Friend the Member for Halifax, as to the reduction of the American navy. There was absolutely nothing going on in the naval yards of that country, with regard to the production of that class of fast vessels of which we had heard so much, that could occasion us any alarm. On the subject of their navy yards he would read a few observations lately made by the Secretary of the Navy to Congress. He said—
  "During the past year the operations of the navy yards have been reduced to the lowest point consistent with the public interest. On several vessels work has been altogether suspended, and on others only so much has been done as was necessary to enable the contractors for the steam machinery to place portions of their engines in the hulls. Six vessels of the class intended for high speed have been launched, and also three others, in which the steam power has been somewhat reduced in order to increase the armament. Steam machinery for twelve vessels of the classes here referred to is in an advanced condition, and the Department is under contracts made during the war to provide the vessels in which these engines are to be placed. It has, however, been considered advantageous under the circumstances, there being no pressing necessity for this class of vessels since hostilities have ceased, to make temporary arrangements for storing the machinery and postpone the construction of the hulls. During the year, the force in the navy yards has been principally engaged in placing in efficient condition the vessels which had been almost constantly employed during the war, and but very little progress has been made upon the hulls of new vessels."
  He could say from his own observation that six vessels of the larger type of 3,000 tons had been built. Three of them had been tried. The first had been rejected because it did not cone up to the speed promised. The second also did not come up to the speed promised. As the third vessel steamed at the rate of 12 knots an hour he supposed that it must be called a fast vessel; but,

  967
  at the same time, its capacity for stowage was but small. It should also be borne in mind that the Americans had no really good sea-going iron-clad vessels; and therefore it was the less necessary for us to build vessels to cope with them since we had vessels like the Warrior and Black Prince, with which the Americans could scarcely hope to cope. He would conclude by saying that the navies of France and of America need create no alarm whatever in this country; and therefore any reduction in the naval service which we might make would not expose us to be taken at a disadvantage.
  MR. CORRYsaid, that the questions that had been raised that evening were of great importance, but they were approaching the hour when the patience of Committees usually became exhausted; and therefore he hoped the Committee would not think he was treating them with want of respect if he confined his remarks to the most material points which have been referred to, reserving further explanations for a future day. In the first place, he must remark that he thought it would be more convenient if hon. Members confined their attention to the general policy of the administration in the preliminary discussion which was usual on the first Vote, and abstained from going into details with reference to particular subjects that might be much more advantageously discussed at a future stage. When the particular Votes to which those details referred came on for discussion, he and his Colleagues would be most happy to give every explanation that might be desired of them. With regard to the question of ships upon foreign stations which had been raised the other night by the hon. Member for Pontefract, and which had been again referred to that evening by the hon. Member for Halifax, he might observe that it was singular enough that this criticism upon the subject of the distribution of the fleet had proceeded solely from three former Civil Lords of the Admiralty. He was the last person who would wish to speak disrespectfully of Civil Lords, since he himself had been a Civil Lord for five or six times as long as the duration of the service at the Admiralty of any of the hon. Gentlemen opposite. But from his own experience during that time he was enabled to state that upon one point the advice of the Civil Lord never was asked, and that was as to the distribution of Her Majesty's ships. The manner in
  968
  which the naval power was to be distributed was a Cabinet question, and depended upon considerations with which even the Lords of the Admiralty themselves were sometimes unacquainted, and which were kept within the bosom of the Cabinet. The Admiralty implicitly obeyed the instructions they received from the Cabinet upon this point. This was, of course, not a party question; still, it was singular that during the last nine or ten years the naval force upon foreign stations was much greater under Whig Governments than it had been under Conservative Governments. Thus, in 1858, when a Whig Government was in office, the number of men upon foreign stations was 28,657, whereas, in 1859, when his right hon. Friend Sir John Pakington prepared the Estimates, the number was reduced to 24,138; the average number between 1860 to 1866, when hon. Gentlemen opposite prepared the Estimates was 33,153, while, during the present year, it was only 24,560. Therefore, the present Government could not be accused of acting very extravagantly in this respect. The hon. Member for Halifax had laughed at the idea of the Foreign Minister directing the Admiralty; but the demands for ships for foreign stations had been generally irresistible, and if the Foreign Minister and the Cabinet said that one, two, five, or ten vessels were to go to a certain station the Admiralty must send them. It must be recollected that the ships on foreign stations did great service in acting as the police of the seas, and if they were withdrawn the greatest loss would fall upon our commerce, especially in the Chinese seas. It would be a most unsatisfactory thing were eight or ten of our fine merchant vessels to be burnt or plundered in consequence of our leaving the police of the seas to the care of the Chinese, which was one of the suggestions that had been made. He did not think that such a policy would be approved by the nation generally. The hon. Member for Pontefract had indicated the other night a scheme for maintaining a flying squadron at Lisbon, instead of distributing our force on the different stations, so that at the flash of the electric telegraph it might be sent to any part of the world in which its presence might be required. That would, undoubtedly, be a good plan if the vessels could also be sent by telegraph wherever they were wanted; but as the ships might have to go from

  969
  4,000 to 10,000 miles, and in many instances, perhaps, with only five or six days' coal on board, he was afraid the squadron would be of but little assistance at the critical moment. With regard to the amount of the Estimates, the Admiralty were called upon to justify the demands for the extra £500,000 asked fur the service of the present year. It had already been stated by the noble Lord the Secretary of the Admiralty, who had moved the Navy Estimates in his absence, that the whole of that £500,000 was required for building new ships; and the question, therefore, was whether the Admiralty could justify the proposal for so increasing our present force. It must be admitted on all hands that it would be impossible to send iron-clads all over the world as cruizers to protect our commerce. It would be necessary to reserve the greater part of our iron-clads for the great political stations—such as the Mediterranean, the Channel, the East and West Indies, and North America. What would be the use of a squadron of iron-clads in the Chinese seas, where the work would be much more satisfactorily performed by smaller vessels? In the event of war, if we had not a sufficient number of small vessels to protect it, our commerce would be open to destruction by Alabamas to an extent that would spread dismay over this country. A most distinguished French Admiral had remarked in a pamphlet many years ago, that France must keep her corvettes and frigates in hand for the purpose of sending them to distant stations at the first outbreak of a war with England for the purpose of stabbing her to the heart by attacking her commerce, and thus compelling her to make peace. In order to meet such a mode of attack we ought to maintain a considerable force of vessels of the smaller classes, so as to enable us to protect our commerce from such attempts. He found that the number of ships under the rank of frigates at the disposal of this country in 1860 was corvettes and sloops, 61; gunvessels and gunboats, 166; paddle sloops, 35; building—corvettes 20, gunvessels and gunboats 24, making a total of 306, whereas in 1867, the numbers are, corvettes and sloops 55, and gunvessels and gunboats 127, paddle sloops, 10; building, corvettes and sloops 6, gunvessels 17, making a total of 215, or 91 less than in 1860. The right hon. Gentleman the late First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir John Pakington) thought
  970
  it desirable, under these circumstances, that 21 additional vessels of the smaller classes should be built—namely, 3 sloops, 8 gunvessels, and 10 gunboats, which would give us a total of 236, or 70 less than in 1860. Perhaps it might be imagined that the number of vessels of the smaller classes in 1860 was unnecessarily large; but having been Secretary in the preceding year, he would state that the reverse was the ease, and the number even then was insufficient. Hon. Gentlemen had talked about the number of our ships in comparison with that of other countries; but it had always been the policy of England to maintain a commanding fleet, greatly superior to that of other nations, and that for obvious reasons. The hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeen said, "Look at the number of our men, compared with the number in the French navy." He (Mr. Corry) might say look at the number of soldiers which France had as compared with England. The reason why France had more soldiers than England, and why England had more sailors than France, was because the requirements of the two countries were totally different. It was absolutely necessary to the existence of France that she should have a large military force; and, on the other hand, it was equally a necessity to England that she should be a great naval Power, and he hoped that she would always aim at maintaining a commanding fleet. At that late hour he would not further prolong the debate, but should be happy to afford any information which might be required on the discussion of the separate Votes. He hoped the Committee would pass the Vote in the hands of the Chairman before they reported Progress.
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, it was perfectly true that he and his hon. Friends who had spoken in that discussion, having held office as Civil Lords of the Admiralty, had nothing to do with the strength or disposition of the foreign squadrons; but that was precisely the reason why they had come forward on that occasion, for no one could taunt them with now suggesting a line of policy different from what they had formerly pursued. They had raised a discussion which he hoped would prove useful on a point of great national importance. The Committee was now asked to vote 67,300 men; but that number did not include the number of men to be employed in the troop ships. He therefore suggested that the Vote should be for the entire force

  971
  that would be brought under the provisions of the Naval Discipline Act, which would give 69,313 for the true total of the number of men to be voted. He begged to withdraw his Amendment.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he hoped that the remarks of the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw-Lefevre), respecting the British squadron at Valparaiso, would not be lost on the House, because the British merchants there had looked for protection from the British squadron; but it turned out that that squadron had not been strong enough to go into action, and the prestige of England suffered greatly in consequence. We should either maintain an adequate squadron in those waters or none at all.
  MR. CORRYsaid, he considered the number of men proposed to be voted was correctly stated in the Estimate; but he had no objection to accept the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract if he wished to press it, although he thought it unnecessary.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, and agreed to
  (2.) £1,900,952, Wages—["Progress, Progress!"]
  MR. CORRYsaid, he hoped the Committee would allow him to proceed until they came to a disputed Vote. It was desirable that as many Votes should be taken as possible, as it was uncertain when he should be able to take the Estimates again.
  LORD HENRY LENNOXsaid, he hoped the Committee would allow the next Vote to be taken, because it followed the number of men as a matter of course.
  Vote agreed to.
  (3.) £1,241,614, Victuals and Clothing.
  Whereupon Question again proposed,
  "That 63,300 Men and Boys be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services, for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, including 16,200 Royal Marines."—(Mr. Childers.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £176,018, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Salaries of the Officers and the Contingent Expenses of the Admiralty Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868."
  MR. OTWAYmoved to report Progress.
  MR. SERJEANT GASELEEsaid, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would assent to the Motion, as it was too late at that hour (quarter past twelve o'clock) to raise a discussion on the Vote. He
  972
  wished to ask how it was, that so many temporary clerks having been discharged on account of the expense, the salary of the private secretary to the First Lord had been increased from £300 to £507; and also, who he was [Cries of "Progress! and No, no!"]; and also why the chief clerk's and the chief instructor's salaries had been increased £100 each?
  LORD HENRY LENNOXsaid, that the objection raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman with reference to the private secretary no longer existed. It was an appointment by the late First Lord of the Admiralty, and as that right hon. Gentleman had ceased to hold the office of First Lord the private secretaryship ceased to exist. As to the two extra clerks, they were not really additions, inasmuch as they had formerly been employed as temporary clerks, and were now made permanent.
  MR. SERJEANT GASELEEsaid, he thought the explanation was most unsatisfactory, as he considered it was rank jobbery that a First Lord should have appointed his son, who was not a naval man, to this position.
  MR. OTWAYsaid, be saw that the three Naval Lords received £1,000 each; but by a note he found this included £300 a year for a house, so they appeared only in fact to get £700. Was this so?
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," (Mr. Serjeant Gaselee,)—put, and negatived.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

  CANADA RAILWAY LOAN BILL— [BILL 99.]
  (Mr. Dodson, Mr. Adderley, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Hunt.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Adderley.)
  MR. MONKsaid, he felt bound to record anew his protest against the passing of the measure. He did not look with dissatisfaction upon the Confederation; but he did not think that this country could properly be called upon to agree to the proposed guarantee.
  MR. CRAWFORDwas quite content to regard this Bill from an Imperial point

  973
  of view, and he thought that on this ground it was most important to this country to facilitate the construction of this railway. In the course of the previous debate the right hon. Member for Calne had said it would be absurd for us to think of communicating with Canada by way of Halifax, while the port of Portland in the State of Maine was open to us. But he thought it must have escaped the observation of the right hon. Gentleman that in using the port of Portland in the winter months, extending over nearly half the year, we did so entirely upon the sufferance of the people of the United States. This consent might at any time be withdrawn, and so long as the present protectionist policy was maintained by the United States, it would be for the interest of this country to secure admission for our exports to Canada without passing through a foreign territory. Then with regard to postal communication by a steamer arriving off Halifax and landing her mails, they would by means of this line reach the extreme west of Canada, as well as Minnesota and the Western States of the American Union, forty-eight hours sooner than they did at present viâ New York. The 2d. now paid on every letter, and the 1d. paid on newspapers, would also be saved by Canada, and the line would probably carry a great deal of the correspondence between this country and the far West. Lastly, it was of the utmost importance that, as Halifax was our great naval station in the Atlantic, means should be secured of ready communication with the valuable coal mines of New Brunswick, which already competed at New York with the Pittsburg coal. Looking at the question from a purely Imperial point of view, and not having himself the slightest pecuniary interest in British North America, he believed the construction of the railway would be a great advantage.
  MR. SERJEANT GASELEEagreed that the reasons assigned by the hon. Member might be a good ground why the Canadians should make the line, but they afforded none why we should give the guarantee asked for; and he protested against the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Adderley) asking the House to assent to the Confederation Bill because it would not bind it to grant the guarantee, and then telling the House that the guarantee must be given because the Confederation had been sanctioned by Parliament. Such a course was calculated to mislead a young Member like himself.
  MR. ADDERLEYemphatically denied
  974
  that he had ever told the House it must agree to the Bill because it had sanctioned the Confederation. On the contrary, he had told hon. Members that they were quit free to deal with the question, and they had given leave to bring in the Bill by a majority of 4 to 1.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday.
  House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—Committee—Dublin University Professorships* (48).
Report—Dublin University Professorships* (48).

ARMY—INDUSTRIAL EMPLOYMENT OF SOLDIERS.

  PETITION FROM COLCHESTER,
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKE, in presenting a Petition praying for the Industrial Employment of Troops in their leisure hours, said, that it was a petition which had been agreed to at a large public meeting in Colchester, and had been forwarded to him by the Mayor of that town. The subject was one of considerable importance, and had already engaged the attention of Parliament. It appeared to the petitioners that the condition of the troops required some alteration in order to improve their sanitary condition and increase their usefulness, and they represented that if the soldiers were more regu-

  897
  larly and more usefully employed it would tend not only to the improvement of their discipline but also to the improvement of their sanitary condition. At present the soldier had about eight hours out of every twenty-four, which he spent in idleness and dissipation, to the injury of his health. It was well known that on various occasions when our troops had been called into active service, and especially during the Crimean war, those of the troops who had previously been stationed in large towns found their constitutions so much damaged by the life they had led that they were unable to bear the ordinary hardships and privation of the campaign. The petitioners thought that the various stations where Her Majesty's troops were permanently placed—as at Aldershot—it would be well, after the exercise of the day, to employ the men in some useful work which would tend to their instruction and the improvement of their general health, and which might also be remunerative to them, and the money they thus earned might be husbanded for them by the Government until the end of their term of service. They thought the troops might be taught the use of the spade, and gardens might be allotted to them, and they might also be taught to repair their own arms and construct their own barracks. Four hours a day out of the eight which were now given up to idleness might be thus employed, and if they were to receive 1½d. an hour for the time, they would have at the end of their twenty years' service a considerable sum to draw, which might be of very great advantage to them.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, that the subject was one which had attracted considerable interest and had been much considered of late years by the War Office and others concerned. The late Lord Herbert and Sir George Lewis took great interest in it, and invited Committees to report upon it. This interest had been fully maintained by their successors up to the present time; and Parliament itself had been well informed in the matter. He would mention a few of the papers laid before Parliament since 1862 which he now had before him. In the year 1862 a Report was presented on Soldiers' Recreation Rooms. The next the Report of a Committee of 1863 was on the Instruction and Employment of Soldiers in Trades. The Sessional Paper No. 181 of 1863 contained Correspondence as to the Employment of Soldiers
  898
  in Trades. In 1864 there was a valuable Return respecting the Success of Soldiers' Workshops in India. In 1865 there was a Return of the soldiers instructed in trades, &c.; and in the same year there was a Report of garden grounds allotted to troops, and a Return of regulations of army libraries and recreation-rooms. These documents showed that Parliament had not been idle. The reason why greater progress had not been made was the expense; because if all the recommendations of these Committees had been carried out, a much greater expenditure would have been incurred than Parliament could reasonably be expected to sanction. There were, however, Votes in the Army Estimates of the present year of £1,000 for soldiers' workshops; £5,000 for schools; £8,000 for gymnasia and skittle grounds; £5,000 for reading-rooms; and £4,500 for supply of books. The question of the employment of soldiers in trades was one of considerable complication. It was spoken of as a simple and easy project which was certain to be followed by satisfactory results; but satisfactory results did not always immediately follow these excellent proposals. It might be possible, as the noble Earl's (the Earl of Hardwicke) petition seemed to contemplate, to make on paper an accurate distribution of the soldier's time, allowing eight hours for sleep end recreation, eight hours for military duty, leaving a balance of eight hours for industrial employment; but in practice the calculation would fail. The only instance in which the experiment of employing soldiers in workshops had been fairly tried was in India. There the circumstances were peculiarly favourable, because there were there a large number of troops who had a great amount of leisure time and not much military duty to perform. Lord Strathnairn, whose energy in war had not failed him in peace, had personally visited every workshop at every station within his reach, and the result appeared in the Return moved for in April, 1864, by Sir Harry Verney—a very valuable paper, well worthy of their Lordships' attention. It was comparatively easy to withdraw a number of soldiers from their regimental duties for a time and employ them in military work. This was sometimes done in the case of the Engineers and other troops; but it was by no means so simple and easy to provide tools and workshops, without interrupting their military duties, for soldiers

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  who might be disposed to work for two or three hours or at odd times in the intervals of their drill, &c. The question was put some years ago to several soldiers of the old school—among others, to Sir George Brown, who was second to no officer in the army in the interest which he took in the real welfare of the soldier; but who saw great doubts and difficulties in the way; and his opinions was shared by many other officers. At the present time, however, from the information he had received, he (the Earl of Longford) anticipated the most cordial assistance on the part of every officer whose co-operation in these schemes might be invited. There were two or three foreign stations—such as the Mauritius and Hong Kong—in which the system was now in operation, but from which no exact reports as to the results had been received. The circumstances of the army at home were known to their Lordships. The troops were kept in constant movement, and were consequently unable to commence any scheme which required a settled position and a greater command of leisure than the military authorities were enabled to place at their disposal. As to the proposal for allotting garden grounds to soldiers, it was obvious that the scheme could be carried out only at a few stations where the soldiers being fixed for a length of time would reap where they had sown. The soldiers themselves had exhibited a desire to undertake any useful work; the public seemed to approve the proposal; and, as both War Office and Horse Guards were entirely favourable to the project, he hoped progress would be made in the right direction, and that before long Returns would be presented to their Lordships showing results at home as distinctly favourable as those in places where experiment had firmly established the feasibility of the scheme.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGENo one is more anxious than the military authorities to adopt the proposal spoken of by the petitioners; but the difficulties in their way are obvious, and in some cases I am afraid they are almost insurmountable. The position of the troops in England is very different from that of the troops in France. In that country there are troops sufficient for every purpose; but in England the forces are kept down to the lowest point that the requirements of the service will allow. The requirements of the service at home are such that the troops are seldom more than two or three months together at one sta-
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  tion; so that a regiment would think it inexpedient to incur the necessary expense for starting the soldiers in their work, either in the workshop or the garden. If the troops were fixed a long time at one station, there would be nothing to prevent us carrying out the admirable system suggested; but, as a matter of fact, we cannot insure their non-removal, and hence the difficulty. In India the case is different. There the troops remain for long periods in one quarter, and Lord Strathnairn was able to introduce the system of workshops with marked success. I believe the same was done in Bombay and Madras by Sir William Mansfield and Sir Hope Grant. In the Mauritius, too, the same facilities exist; at that station the troops remain for four or five years together, and have time for military duties and also for industrial employment. The opportunities offered by these conditions of military life are such as should not be lost sight of and we take advantage of them; indeed, we are introducing the system in every part of the world to the fullest possible extent; but nowhere do we meet with such difficulties as we are likely to meet with at home. In some cases a regiment is not more than a few months on the same station, and when removed it may never probably return, and these removals would entail considerable loss and disappointment if the men had to leave their workshops and gardens. Indeed, the difficulties in the way of adopting this scheme are greater than the public, and perhaps your Lordships, are aware of. The military authorities, however, from myself down to the junior officers, all appreciate the advantage the army would derive from the adoption of the system, and they will, I am sure, all endeavour to further any arrangements which may be made to carry it out efficiently. The question of expense has been referred to; but in cases where absolute advantage will accrue from additional expenditure no objection to incurring it will, I am sure, be made on the part of the public. The question of troops repairing their own barracks has already been under discussion; that, I think, is employment which soldiers may very well be put to. The vexation caused by the item "barrack damages" cannot well be overestimated; the troops not only object to the charge itself, but think the proportion charged above what it should be. Very little skilled labour, too, is needed for repairing barracks beyond what troops can

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  well perform; so that in this respect we may hope for satisfactory results. For my part, I hope the system will be largely introduced; and, if it should not be so, your Lordships may rely upon it that nothing prevents its general adoption but the difficulties incident to the nature of the service at home.
  EARL GREYthought it must be gratifying to their Lordships to hear that the noble Earl the Under Secretary for War and the illustrious Duke who followed him were impressed with the importance of the subject, and were disposed to adopt the system which the petitioners advocated; of the difficulties alluded to he was quite aware, but he believed they would be overcome as soon as the subject received the attention it deserved. He had reminded their Lordships not long since of the great anomaly that when the great establishment at Aldershot was being formed all the draining and road-making—descriptions of work peculiarly adapted for the instruction of soldiers in the requirements of actual service—were executed not by the soldiers but by contract. He had not made that statement on official authority, but he had read it in the newspapers, and it had not been contradicted to his knowledge. That single fact called for improvement, and he hoped the disposition to favour a better system of things would prevent such an incident occurring again.
  EAST DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he could not refrain from expressing his satisfaction at the tone of the discussion. He was glad to hear the noble Earl the Under Secretary for War and the illustrious Duke approve the adoption of the system proposed as far as possible. The difficulties were undoubtedly considerable; but he had been led to think them far from insurmountable, especially when considered in the light of the Report of a Committee appointed by the late Sir George Lewis in 1862. The Committee was composed of officers of distinction and experience; they put a series of questions upon this subject to all the General Officers commanding districts in Great Britain, Ireland, and the Channel Islands, and only one General Officer and one regimental Board reported unfavourably upon it. The General Officer was Sir George Brown, who was at that time Commander of the Forces in Ireland, and the regimental Board was one at Dublin, under the immediate influence of that officer. That gave him hope that
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  the difficulties in the way of adopting the system might be overcome. He was quite sure that as soon as it became known that the War Office and Horse Guards desired the system to be fairly tried, commanding officers would be anxious to assist in doing so; and he would suggest that the orders regulating the experiments might not be too stringent; commanding officers should, he thought, at first have great latitude allowed them in this respect, and when experience had given the authorities some solid information to work upon, fuller regulations might be framed for the future.
  Petition ordered to lie on the table.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.