Sitting of 27 February 1866

MINUTES.
—NEW MEMBER SWORN—For Ripon, Lord John Hay.
SELECT COMMITTEE—On Controverted Elections; The Chairmen's Panel; East India Communications appointed; Metropolitan Local Government, &c.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—Civil Service Estimates.
Resolutions [Feb. 26] reported.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—Railways (Guards' and Passengers' Communication); Colonial Governors (Retiring Pensions); Public Libraries Act Amendment.
First Reading—Princess Helena's Annuity*[42]; Prince Alfred's Annuity* [43]; Public Libraries Act Amendment [44].
Committee—Cattle Diseases (Ireland) [37].
Report—Cattle Diseases (Ireland) [87].
Considered as amended—Jamaica Government* [17].
Third Reading—National Debt Reduction* [4]; Savings Banks and Post Office Savings Banks * [5] and passed*

EXCHANGE IN JAPAN.—QUESTION.
LORD STANLEYsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether his attention has been called to statements made in the London and China Telegraph of the 5th instant in reference to the Exchange question in Japan; and to ask him to produce a Copy of the Report made by Mr. Arbuthnot, of the Treasury, on the operation of the present system of appropriating the profits arising out of the Exchange; and whether any sums had been carried to the credit of the Public Accounts, out of the profit arising from the difference between the current value of the Japanese Ichibon and the rate at which it is supplied to the Naval, Military, and Civil Services?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, in reply, that the literal answer to the noble Lord's question was very easily given. His attention had been called to the statement made in the London and China Telegraph upon this subject, and there was no objection whatever to produce the Report made by Mr. Arbuthnot; and, in point of fact, it was on those Reports that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) advised the House to rely mainly, in order to obtain a true knowledge of this very difficult and intricate subject. And lastly, he had to state that no sum had been carried to the credit of the public accounts, out of the profits arising from the difference between the current value of the Japanese Ichibon, and the rate at which it was supplied to the Naval, Military, and Civil Services. But he thought he ought to add some words of explanation, because otherwise the answer he had given would be hardly any answer, except to the noble Lord who had given his attention to the subject. By the tenth article of the Treaty with Japan there was a stipulation that all foreign coin should pass in that country at its corresponding weight in Japanese coin. Either from the orders of the Government or the prejudices of the people, it was found that the dollars in which our officers were paid did not obtain currency in Japan, and that they were totally unavailable as an instrument of ordinary exchange for the purpose of subsistence. On that discovery

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a communication took place with the Japanese Government, and an arrangement was made by that Government to the effect that the dollar should stand at a certain fixed value to the Ichibon. The effect of that exchange was of very considerable advantage to the Civil Service, because its fixed value was higher than the current rate of exchange. The principle of the exchange was that it should be at a rate simply that would cover the cost of coinage, and be equivalent to the weight of metal, so that in principle it was entirely in conformity with the article of the treaty on which the arrangement was framed. When this fact came to the knowledge of the Government at home the matter was examined into by the late Mr. Arbuthnot, of the Treasury, and he need not inform the House that he was a most valuable civil servant, and besides his other excellencies he was a perfect master of the currency question. Mr. Arbuthnot investigated the matter, and in consequence the Treasury made a communication to the Foreign Office to the effect that the practice ought to be abandoned, and it was abandoned accordingly. A great deal of correspondence, however, took place between Mr. Arbuthnot and Sir Rutherford Alcock before the conclusion was definitively arrived at, but when it was done the Foreign Office gave effect to it. However, when that was done it appeared that the Japanese Government decidedly objected to the alteration. They represented their objection to it strongly to Sir Rutherford Alcock, and he on his own responsibility altered the arrangement, in consequence of his entertaining so strong an impression of the impolicy of adhering to it. It became known in course of time at home that in October, 1864, Sir Rutherford Alcock had reverted to the old system of exchange. After he had done so the matter was again taken in hand by Mr. Arbuthnot, who at the time of his death was about to make another Report upon the subject. The Japanese merchants entertained two different views with regard to the subject—one party was favourable to it and the other was opposed to it; but it was impossible then to perfectly explain it. It appeared, however, there was no course open to Her Majesty's Government but either to continue matters as they were or to allow them to continue at the present rate of exchange, giving the credit of the exchange to the public accounts. There was this difficulty, however, in taking that course. They
1196
were informed that the scale of salaries was originally fixed in Japan somewhat low, considering the expense of living, and that there had since been a considerable rise in prices, so that although, this lucrative system of official exchange had an irregular and accidental origin, its practical effect had been to prevent a general demand for an increase of salary. Mr. Arbuthnot thought the proper course would be to establish a mint in Japan in concurrence with the authorities of that country. But that was not the work of a day.

TREATY BETWEEN FRANCE AND MONACO.—QUESTION.
MR. W. EWARTsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the subjects of the State of Monaco, having been admitted by the French Government to the same privileges of trade and shipping as the people of France, British subjects are not also, under existing Treaties, deemed to be entitled to the same privileges?
MR. LAYARD, in reply, said, it was true that by a recent arrangement the inhabitants of the small principality of Monaco had been admitted by France to the same privileges of trade and shipping as the people of that country. When that arrangement was entered into, Her Majesty's Government thought it right to state to the French Government that they could not accept it as a precedent, and if any other Power under "the most favoured Nation" Clause insisted upon having the same rights and privileges as French subjects, Her Majesty's Government would also insist upon them. Considering, however, the smallness of the State of Monaco, and its peculiar geographical position, Her Majesty's Government did not at present consider it necessary to take any step. We had no "most favoured Nation" Clause with respect to navigation; but he might add that no Power which had one had thought fit to commuuicate with the French Government on the subject of this treaty.

RAILWAY BRIDGES IN THE METROPOLIS.—QUESTION.
MR. O'BEIRNEsaid, he would beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, Whether his attention has been called to the danger to the horse traffic of the Metropolis which arises from the exposed state

1197
of the Railway bridges crossing many of the leading streets; and whether it is his intention to take such steps as will insure the erection of screens upon each of such bridges?
MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, in reply, that the attention of the Board of Trade had recently been called by an individual to the danger referred to in the question of the hon. Member. If road authorities represented to the Board of Trade that danger to persons travelling on any road under their jurisdiction was to be apprehended from horses being frightened by the sight of engines on a railway, the Board of Trade had power, under the Railway Clauses Act, 1845, to order the erection of a screen, if it appeared that the danger could be so obviated; but the Board of Trade could not, under the law, act on the representation of private persons.

SALARIES OF THE CUSTOMS CLERKS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SEELYsaid, he would beg to ask, Whether any changes have been made in the salaries of the Clerks of the Customs House; and, if so, whether there is any objection to state the nature of them, and whether the changes would extend to the outdoor Clerks?
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, in reply, that there were about 600 clerks in the London Customs, and several memorials having been addressed to the Treasury, the case of each had been very carefully inquired into by himself, the Chairman of the Board of Customs, and the Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue. A new scale of salaries was to be substituted for the one now in force, and would be seen in the Estimates for the Revenue Department. He might say in general terms that there were in the warehousing department of the Customs 270 junior clerks and officers. The former were now divided into six classes, with salaries commencing at £75 a year, and rising by £5 a year to £120, and their maximum was £260. It was proposed in future to divide them into three classes, rising by £10 a year after the first two years from a minimum of £80 to a maximum of £300. The principal clerks would rise to £350, instead of £300. The controllers and assistant controllers would begin at £360, instead of £320, and would rise to £500, instead of £450 a year. In the Inspector General's and Examiner's Offices there were about 220 junior clerks and chief clerks. The
  1198
  former now began with £75, and only rose by £5 to £170. He proposed to divide them also into three classes, and apply the same arrangement to them as to the clerks in the warehousing department. A main feature of the scheme would be very advantageous to the public service generally, for it was proposed to substitute for a large number of the junior clerks a class who were to be called writers, who would be paid daily or weekly, and who would not be considered in the same station as the gentlemen who were popularly called clerks in the public offices. That plan had already been adopted with great success at the Admiralty, and it was found greatly to increase the flow of promotion. With regard to the outports, he proposed to examine the question with the same minuteness as in London. He had already gone through the Liverpool Custom House, and he hoped during the next month to go through the whole department of the Customs at the outports. There were about 250 or 300 clerks at these outports, He proposed to move for a Copy of the Treasury Minute which, with the Estimates, would give the House all the information it required.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he wished to ask whether there would be any Minute as to the status of the body of writers?
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, that the Treasury Minute would explain it, but there were details as to increase in wages and superannuation which had not been definitely fixed.

THE CATTLE PLAGUE.—QUESTION.
SIR ANDREW AGNEW: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, considering the probable fate of the Cattle Plague Bill, he means to propose a measure embodying the less objectionable Clauses of both the measures on the subject that have passed this House?
SIR GEORGE GREY: I do not know what the hon. Baronet means by referring to the probable fate of the Cattle Plague Bill. I have heard no report concerning it, except that a proposition has been made in the House of Lords to refer it to a Select Committee.

INDIA—EXPEDITION TO BHOOTAN.

  QUESTION.
  MR. OTWAYsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for India,

  1199
  Whether the statement in the newspapers of a telegram which has been received with unusual celerity from Calcutta, announcing the restoration of the guns taken in the expedition to Bhootan, may be considered authentic; and, if so, whether, the guns being restored, and the last stipulation of the Treaty made with the Government of India being thus performed, it may not be considered that all prospect of an expedition into Bhootan is now at an end?
  MR. STANSFELD, in reply, said, he was not prepared to answer his hon. Friend's Question without notice. He had no reason to doubt the authenticity of the telegram; and, if so, as far as his information went, there would be a conclusion of the question to which his hon. Friend referred.

MONUMENT TO VISCOUNT PALMER. STON.—REPORT.
Answer to Address [23rd February] reported, as follows:—
I have received your Address, praying that I will give directions that a Monument be erected in the Collegiate Church of Saint Peter, Westminster, to the memory of the Right honourable Viscount Palmerston, with an inscription expressive of the public admiration and attachment, and of the heavy loss which the Country has sustained by his death; and assuring Me that you will make good the expenses attending the same.
And I shall give directions in accordance with your Address.

RAILWAYS (GUARDS' AND PASSENGERS' COMMUNICATION).—LEAVE.
MR. H. B. SHERIDAN MR. H. B. SHERIDAN moved for leave to bring in a Bill to compel the directors of railway companies to provide efficient means of communication between the travellers by and the guards in charge of railway trains. He said, he need not then trouble the House with more than one or two observations as it would be more convenient to take the discussion on the Bill after it was printed. Such a communication as that which his measure contemplated was not only necessary, but it had been adopted in France, and was found perfectly practicable. The Bill provided a penalty for the wanton use of the
1200
means of communication. It might be necessary to exclude from the operation of the Bill short journey trains stopping at every station and the metropolitan railways. The question whether the means were proper and efficient would be left to the Board of Trade. The President of the Board of Trade, he believed, thought it would be better if the Bill, after receiving a second reading, were referred to a Select Committee. If that course were taken, the details of the measure might easily be settled by the Committee in two or three days.
MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, he had no objection to the introduction of the Bill, but must reserve his opinion as to particular clauses.
Motion agreed to.
Bill to compel the Directors of Railway Companies to provide efficient means of communication between the Travellers by and the Guards in charge of Railway Trains, ordered to be brought in by Mr. HENRY B. SHERIDAN and Mr. HARDCASTLE.

COLONIAL GOVERNORS (RETIRING PENSIONS) ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

  LEAVE.
  MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend an Act passed last Session, called "The Colonial Governors (Retiring Pensions) Act." He said, that without trespassing at any length on the attention of the House, he wished to point out those features of the Act of last year which rendered that measure, although introduced by the Colonial Secretary with the very kindest and best intentions, perfectly useless. That right hon. Gentleman's Bill bestowed pensions on Colonial Governors who had served for eighteen years, and who were sixty years of age; but no gentleman who had served in the colonies in any other capacity than as Governor was allowed to count the time during which he had resided there. Now, these conditions made the measure inoperative. In the first place, there were not two instances of Governors who had served for more than or even for eighteen years. A Colonial Governor was appointed for a period of six years; it was by the greatest possible interest and favour that he ever obtained three governments; and even if he received three governments, it very rarely happened that he served the whole six years in each. Again, assuming that a Governor was appointed at thirty, and

  1201
  that he had the good fortune to hold three governments in succession for the full terms, he would come home at forty-eight; but under the right hon. Gentleman's Act he would have to remain without any pension whatever for twelve years, until he was sixty. He might die of starvation in the meanwhile. It was a great hardship not to allow these gentlemen to count other Colonial service besides that rendered by them in the capacity of Governor. Without mentioning names, one instance in proof might be quoted. A gentleman of great distinction and consideration had served in different capacities in the colonies from 1827 to 1847. In the latter year he was appointed as Governor of an important colony, and he filled the same post in different parts of the world from 1847 to 1861. Thus he had acted in the colonies as Governor for fourteen years, and for twenty years before that he had served in the colonies in other capacities; yet he was not entitled to more than a trifling pension. The Bill which he now asked permission to introduce was one of a very moderate character. It reduced the time of service three years—from eighteen years to fifteen—which rendered the condition as to three governments a practical one. It also gave the pension to any Governor the moment he was entitled to it, unless he received other employment; and it permitted these officers to count all the time during which they had been engaged in the Colonial service. It was to be hoped that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cardwell), having seen the working of his Act, or rather how little use it was, would not only assent to the introduction of that Bill, but to its passing into law. Since last year there had been a great change in regard to the position of Colonial Governors. Last year he had urged on the House the importance of the duties of those officers, how they ought to be supported by the Home Government, and that justice should be done to those men who devoted their time and their energies to the service of their country in distant lands. Events had since transpired which must have impressed upon the House the great importance and the heavy responsibility attached to those posts. During the discussions of last year some hon. Gentlemen treated lightly the position of Colonial Governors, spoke of them as being, after all, unimportant, as being given to half-pay officers who were not capable of filling great situations. The recent occurrences in Jamaica,
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  in Victoria, and in North America showed how very mistaken was such a notion. Gentlemen were sent out to these posts to represent their Sovereign, with the possibility of having their conduct violently assailed while they were doing their best, and their characters blasted by the ignorance or the malevolence of parties at home. And yet, after they had served their country under such circumstances for fifteen or sixteen years, they would not receive the most trifling pittance on their return. The salaries of those gentlemen, who had to represent the Sovereign, were not sufficient to enable them to make a future provision for their families or to insure their lives, a thing which, by the way, could only be done in such climates at very high rates. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he had understood, had last year thrown some obstacles in the way of a more satisfactory settlement of that question; because at one time, he believed, it was proposed that other Colonial service besides that rendered as Governor was to be allowed to count, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not sanction it. Whether that had been the fact or not, it was to be hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would think better of it now, and, giving to that matter the fair consideration which the justice of the case demanded, would allow the present Bill not only to be brought in, but to pass. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to introduce the Bill.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, it was not his intention to offer any objection to the introduction of the Bill; but he must suppose that his hon. Friend would take proper care so to arrange the measure as to make it accord with the rules of the House when he did introduce it. The Bill of last Session had met with greater favour with Colonial Governors than his hon. Friend was aware of. He could not admit that it had been entirely inoperative, because it appeared from the papers which had just been laid on the table that seven Colonial Governors had already received well-merited pensions, so that instead of the measure being considered valueless it had been properly appreciated. He thought it would be better to postpone the consideration of the provisions of the Bill of his hon. Friend till the House had had an opportunity of seeing it. His hon. Friend understood the great difficulty everybody had to encounter with a Bill of this kind, and he could not hold out any encouragement that Her Ma-

  1203
  jesty's Government, who had given much consideration to the subject, were prepared to depart from the arrangement made during the last Session of Parliament.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill to amend an Act passed in the twenty-eighth and twenty-ninth years of Her present Majesty, intituled "The Colonial Governors (Retiring Pensions) Act,"ordered to be brought in by Mr. BAILLIE COCHRANE and Mr. CAVE.

METROPOLITAN LOCAL GOVERNMENT, &c.

  SELECT COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he should not be justified in troubling the House with many observations, because statements had already been made in the House bearing on the conclusion at which he wished to arrive. But he felt it necessary to make a few remarks in order to prevent any misapprehension respecting the motives and objects which he had in view. It was easy to suggest a theory for getting rid of all inconveniences which annoyed the inhabitants of the metropolis, but when the subject was considered practically it was beset with considerable difficulties—not the least of which was the immense magnitude of the undertaking. They had to deal with an area larger than that of any other city—some 70,000 acres, with a population approaching 3,000,000, occupying 360,000 houses. The value of the property at stake could only be measured by its rateable value, which amounted to £13,000,000. The real annual value was probably not less than £15,000,000. It was not easy to grapple with such a state of things, but the difficulty was increased when it was known that for 200 years the metropolis had been allowed to grow up and govern itself in the manner which accorded most with the views of the various local bodies. The result was a most extraordinary chaos. Everything connected with local government had degenerated into abuse. The interests of the community were sacrificed for the benefit of private individuals. It was in this state of things that Lord Llanover undertook the task of establishing municipal institutions for the metropolis. The House must be struck with the great ability he manifested. It was open to Parliament at that time either to let the metropolis be governed Imperially and to set up prefects, after the manner of Paris and other continental cities, or to establish bodies more in accordance with our own Constitution and
  1204
  the municipal institutions of the country. The latter course was adopted. Parliament determined to establish a municipality adapted as far as possible to the peculiar circumstances of the metropolis. He did not think the House would be disposed to recede from the conclusion at which it then arrived. But Lord Llanover, contemplating the difficulties of his position, was compelled to show some deference to opposite opinions, and arrived at conclusions in the nature of a compromise. Instead of giving full scope to municipal institutions he passed a measure containing many peculiar qualifications, and amongst others he reserved to the Government the power of controlling the chief municipal body. By taking that course the worst of all possible systems was established—that of divided responsibility. In the first effort made by the Board the Government attempted to interfere, a collision between the Government and the local authorities ensued, and the result showed the disastrous consequences arising from such a state of things. Lord Llanover was led by speculative individuals into proposing a draining scheme, the estimated cost of which was from £7,000,000 to £11,000,000. The Metropolitan Board, taking a common-sense view of the matter, were satisfied with a scheme, the estimated cost of which was about £3,000,000. The right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), who was then in office, adopted the wise course of declining to interfere in the municipal affairs of the metropolis. He committed the whole affair to the responsibility of the Metropolitan Board, and repealed those portions of the Act which established any control over their proceedings. The Board had carried out their plan at a cost, owing to the rise in prices, greater than that originally proposed, but at about one-third of the cost of the speculative scheme suggested by the Government. Since the adoption of that scheme by the Metropolitan Board an instance of divided administration had been seen in the setting up by the Government of a scheme of embankment. Instead of adhering to the wise policy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire, a noble Lord present on the Opposition side of the House (Lord John Manners) again interfered, and proposed a scheme for the embankment of the Thames. It was a most ill-considered scheme, in which grave errors existed. The Government, unfortunately, had not to pay the money required from

  1205
  the public revenue, but from local resources. Government did not seem to be impressed with a due sense of the responsibility connected with the undertaking. At the time he (Mr. Ayrton) pointed it out as an ill-considered plan, that streets had been laid out which never could be made, that certain bargains had been made with influential noblemen, and that these bargains would be set out as schemes which had been sanctioned by Parliament, and that it would be impossible to carry out the plan—and yesterday he was sorry to say he had seen all his predictions fulfilled. The Metropolitan Board, not being allowed to proceed, had no responsibility. They accepted the measure of the Government, causing an absolute loss to the metropolis which could only be measured by hundreds of thousands of pounds. He hoped this result would warn the Government against making themselves responsible for local self-government. However much individuals might depreciate the position of those who undertook the task of local self-government, yet in the end they were found to be people of common sense and sound judgment, and better able to deal with the subject than some persons who were intrusted with the dignity of Ministers of State. In submitting his Motion to the House he had no intention of departing from the principle of local government recognized by it at first, and afterwards sanctioned by the Administration of Lord Derby. Undoubtedly the task set the municipality was one of great and increasing magnitude and difficulty. No sooner was a great municipal body established than wants, which had been long neglected, were brought under the consideration of the House. It found that the easiest mode of dealing with them was to hand them over to the Metropolitan Board. From Session to Session grave duties and serious responsibilities had been imposed upon the board. Therefore, it was that the Metropolitan Board and the subordinate boards, although well suited to the duties first imposed on them, were not suited to many of the duties which they now had to discharge. He felt this difficulty so much, that five years ago he moved the appointment of a Select Committee, which investigated many questions of great importance, but nevertheless its labours came to a close at the end of the Session. He did not complain of the result of the labours of that Committee. On the contrary, it disposed of some important
  1206
  matters, and the metropolis derived great benefit from its labours, not the least of which was to place on the Metropolitan Board and the local boards the duty of protecting the inhabitants from railway invasion, instead of throwing that responsibility on individuals. He would not enter into any minute examination of the recommendations of that Committee, or the extent to which those recommendations had been carried out. But the growing extent of the duties of the Metropolitan Board rendered it necessary to take up the subject again, in order to arrive at some satisfactory conclusion with respect to the improvement necessary to enable them to perform the duties devolving upon them. That would be the first object of the Committee. The next object would be to inquire into the taxation of the metropolis, and that inquiry would not be prosecuted without difficulty. It was easy for a board to improve the metropolis provided they had an unlimited supply of funds; but the people of this metropolis were unwilling to be taxed for the gratification or caprice of other persons, and there was a steady resistance to the attempts to impose large sums in the shape of local taxation. The Metropolitan Board, wherever it was charged with any dereliction of duty, or want of zeal in carrying out improvements, invariably stated that they had not sufficient resources at their command, and that the local taxation was so extremely heavy that it had reached its utmost limit. That statement was to a considerable extent correct. The total amount of local taxation in the metropolis amounted to upwards of £2,500,000. That was no inconsiderable sum, but if it were thought necessary to gratify the desires of some hon. Members and of some scientific gentlemen out of the House, especially those who dedicated themselves to the cultivation of art, it was impossible to say to what extent local taxation would be necessary. The taxation of the metropolis was twofold—direct and indirect. Nothing could be more inconvenient, or in the end more disastrous, than to allow local boards to raise money by indirect taxation, because by that means they obtained large resources without making the expenditure at once and directly felt by the community. The advantage of direct taxation in local government, on the contrary, was immense, because the ratepayers were thus made alive to the expenditure, and were induced to look after their own interest. The

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  direct taxation of the metropolis was upwards of £2,000,000. The indirect was comparatively small, but it was of a most pernicious character, and entirely at variance with the principles laid down with respect to the general taxation of the country. A few years ago a treaty was entered into not to levy a duty on coals exported to France, and yet a duty was levied on coals imported into London, and used for all the manufacturing industry of the metropolis. It was impossible to conceive a state of things more anomalous or ridiculous. If there was an evil in indirect taxation, it was still worse to anticipate it by loans, and make them chargeable not only on the year, but to mortgage them for many years to come, thus throwing the burdens on the future. That was a state of things which the House ought not to sanction without some cogent necessity. It became, therefore, the duty of Parliament, when a demand was made by the Metropolitan Board for increased revenue by additional taxation, to inquire into its proceedings, its necessities, and its true resources. It was necessary to examine the question of taxation, and to see whether it was levied in a manner consistent with justice. If the result should be that indirect taxation could not be upheld, then the resources necessary must be raised by some other mode. He did not think it necessary to enter into the details of the question, as he should thereby be anticipating the purpose he wished to accomplish by the appointment of the Committee. Suffice it to say, that as the Metropolitan Board was pressing forward improvement Bills, the Committee might feel it their duty at once to enter into an investigation of the means by which those improvements might be carried into effect, and he trusted that its labours would lead to the solution of a question of considerable difficulty. Having given a sufficient explanation of the objects which he had in view, he would abstain from touching on any of those topics of irritation which were sometimes introduced. He did not think any good could result from abusing classes or individuals, and be hoped the hon. Members would believe that the classes who undertook the duty of managing the affairs of the metropolis were entitled to as much consideration and respect as the class who happened to sit in that House. He made this remark because he had recently heard observations which he thought ought not to have been made, and he thought when
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  anybody undertook to attack vestrymen they should know something about their capacity and their qualification. He was all the more surprised that anyone should decry such a class after delivering a speech which was the reproduction of a pamphlet written by a vestryman, scarcely adding a single observation of his own. The hon. and learned Member concluded by moving for a Select Committee to inquire into the Local Government and Local Taxation of the Metropolis.
  MR. TITEsaid, that he seconded the Motion. No one could doubt the Metropolitan Board had effected many important works, but they were now before Parliament for three, all of great value to the public—namely—1st, the approaches to the Thames Embankment; 2nd, the Park Lane improvement; and 3rd, the continuation of the Thames Embankment, and consequently the great road to Chelsea. These were undoubted necessities. But the difficulty the Metropolitan Board had to contend with was that morally, although not legally, the taxation which fell upon the occupiers was so heavy that it could be carried no further. For instance, in Chelsea a £20 house was subject to a rating of £5. It had been suggested that the coal tax should be continued, or, again, that an improvement rate should be imposed; but, be that as it might, some resources must he found beyond the present rates, or further improvements in the metropolis must be suspended. He trusted the appointment of the Committee would not have the effect of delaying the measures which the Board thought necessary to meet the emergency of the case. The justice of a rate was, however, to be measured by its uniformity; and he should like, while upon that subject, to refer to some Returns with regard to metropolitan assessment for 1864 which had been moved for by the hon. Member for Lambeth. From those Returns he found that some most extraordinary inconsistencies prevailed. In Chelsea, for instance, with which he was best acquainted, he found the state of things to be this that under Schedule A the return of the value of property, land and houses, was £290,000 per annum, while the police rate was £240,000, the county rate £234,000, and the poor rate £229,000. Taking the great parish of St. George's, Hanover Square, he found the property was rated under the property tax under Schedule A at £1,365,000; the police rate being

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  £964,000, the county rate £943,000, and the poor rate £920,000. The proportion in these two instances, therefore, was very much the same. He next came to the great inconsistencies of the system. In St. Pancras the return under Schedule A gave the sum of £3,818,804; the police rate being only £864,000—not much more than one-fourth—the county rate £800,000, and the poor rate £820,000: the disproportion here was inconceivable and unaccountable. Again, in the parish of Paddington he found the rating under Schedule A to be £2,400,000; the county rate was only £526,000, the police rate was £588,000, and the poor rate £607,000, or not much more than 25 per cent upon the income tax. In the City of London the inconsistencies were not so great, but they were exceedingly great even there, and showed the necessity for some inquiry. With regard to the constitution of the Metropolitan Board, the system was devised by Lord Llanover; it had worked well, and it had been in existence long enough to furnish a reasonable amount of experience. Both the vestries and the Metropolitan Board of Works would welcome inquiry. The Board stood well for what it had done. Although composed of men in a comparatively humble position of life, it had displayed ability in the conduct of business, and it had carried out great works to the satisfaction of the public and of the House of Commons. He supported the Motion for inquiry, thinking that it would be useful, and he hoped that the inquiry would be specially directed to matters that bore upon such uniformity of rating so that each person might bear his fair share of the burdens of the State.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Local Government and Local Taxation of the Metropolis."—(Mr. Ayrton.)
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, he had ventured on Monday to remark that no metropolitan Member could touch this subject without danger of either offending his constituents or sacrificing his conscience. He presumed that the fear of offending his constituents had led the hon. Member to adopt a course which good taste might have induced him to disapprove. In disregard of a rule of debate, the hon. Member had quoted his speech of last night, and alluded to himself, although not byname, telling him that he was not to abuse individuals. The hon. Member had, however, shown how he could be praise certain individuals; his enemies might say indeed that he had fawned
  1210
  and cringed to them; the hon. Member had also seized every opportunity of throwing dirt upon the leaders of his own party. After a long and rambling disquisition, consisting of argument without point, and a labyrinth of topics without any definite object, the hon. Member had drawn the conclusion that the House ought to be warned against allowing the Government to have anything to do with the management of the metropolis and the constitution of the Metropolitan Board of Works. He praised the Opposition side of the House, and cast dirt upon the Ministerial side, in a manner which might be expected from an individual who had not attained the object he desired, and who was smarting bitterly under some recent disappointment. The hon. Member spoke as the representative and champion of metropolitan vestrymen. If he had defended merely those of the Tower Hamlets, the defence might have been accepted as an electioneering speech, such as they all sometimes indulged in; but he had said not a word about them. He travelled to St. Pancras, in the constituency of Marylebone, and confined himself to an apology for them: they being the only individuals to whom he (Lord Robert Montagu) had alluded. His (Lord Robert Montagu's) own case rested on the letter of Dr. Horace Jeaffreson, which had appeared in The Times, exposing the procedure, conduct, and language of London vestrymen. The hon. Member would find that he had no rival in the House who would desire to ingratiate himself with the vestrymen and appear as their proper and duly qualified representative. Any one who read of the way in which they hindered a sanitary officer from removing certain fever dens which had scattered death far and wide would not think the hon. Member's speech had added a new laurel to his brow. His speech of yesterday, the hon. Member said, was a plagiarism from a pamphlet by a vestryman. He had seen one pamphlet from which he had copied a few figures, and several omissions were supplied to him at the offices of the Metropolitan Board, where he was furnished with a complete list of metropolitan jurisdictions. But no other pamphlet or production on the subject had fallen in his way. He knew it would be useless to appeal to the Home Secretary, who had already promised to support the Motion. The hon. Member had said that Lord Llanover, backed up by a Commission on which Sir George Lewis sat, and by a

  1211
  powerful Government, was forced into a compromise. But was the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets backed up by a Government on which he had attempted to cast dirt. Was he supported by a Commission? Would he not, too, be forced into a compromise which might perhaps be still more ignoble? The hon. Member had also said that Lord Llanover, who was a hard working official, was led away by speculative individuals; and had not the hon. Member himself in the last Parliament been led away by speculative individuals, particularly in reference to Metropolitan Bills? [Mr. AYRTON: What Bills?] Against the Sewage Bill for instance. If the Committee which had investigated this subject five years ago and had acquired much information was unable to agree upon any measure, what reason was there for supposing that a Committee given to the hon. Member now would be more successful? Was not the want of success of a former Committee an argument against appointing a new one, particularly as local jurisdictions had become more important than they were formerly, and more able to resist a searching inquiry? Not content with grappling with a difficulty which was proved to be insurmountable before the hon. Member had complicated it by adding the question of direct or indirect taxation, which alone would be enough for any Committee of ordinary men. The ordinary rule in these cases was to appoint a Committee to ascertain facts; and when these had become known then a Royal Commission was generally appointed to devise a measure which would meet an acknowledged difficulty. Thus there had been Committees and Commissions upon Poor Law and Rivers' pollution. Last year, moreover, the Secretary of State said it was not necessary to appoint a Commission upon this subject, because the House had long been cognizant of the facts, and yet the right hon. Gentleman assented now to the appointment of a Committee to acquire this knowledge. The truth was the right hon. Baronet desired to postpone the evil day; he was afraid, and he therefore displayed the hesitation which he lately did in the question of the cattle plague. The proper course would be to appoint a Commission who could make available the information already obtained.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, it was not his intention to enter into the matters at issue between the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets and the noble Lord. He only wished, as one of the representatives of
  1212
  the City, to say, as the City authorities were generally supposed to be at issue with the Metropolitan Board of Works, that they would interpose no difficulty in the examination of any matter having reference to the government or local taxation of the metropolis, but would be ready to afford the Committee all the assistance in their power.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that the feeling of the House seemed to be in favour of the contemplated inquiry. He regretted that personal matters had been introduced in the debate, but he thought that a sufficient case had been made out for inquiry by a Committee. The noble Lord seemed to differ from the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets only in this, that he thought a Commission would be better than a Committee. But it appeared to him that a Committee of the House of Commons was very competent to deal with this question, particularly when they took into consideration that Members from different parts of the metropolis might be very useful in the course of the inquiry, There was only one other observation which he wished to make, and it was with regard to the Bills promoted by the Metropolitan Board of Works. He understood the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Tite) to say that it was desirable to interpose as little delay as possible in the prosecution of those Bills, and that, therefore, the inquiries of the Committee might be directed in the first place to the question of taxation without waiting for the general Report to say by what funds those improvements might be carried out. It was very desirable to interpose no unnecessary delay in the way of those Bills, and with that understanding the Government were ready to assent to the proposition of the hon. Gentleman.
  MR. LIDDELLsaid, he would not have risen but for certain observations which he had heard with some apprehension, and coming from the quarter they did, that apprehension was by no means diminished. He referred to what had fallen on the question of taxation from the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Tite), who held a responsible position in that House. Now, he felt it his duty not to let this matter go further without at once expressing a very earnest hope that neither a Committee of that House, nor that House collectively, would approve what the remarks of the hon. Member led him to think the Metropolitan Board of Works were hankering after— namely, a continuance of the coal tax for metropolitan improvements. The hon.

  1213
  Member pointed out that the limits of the ordinary taxation of occupiers in the metropolis had been almost exceeded—that it had got to a point beyond which it would not be safe or politic to advance. Now he, as a ratepayer of the metropolis, fully endorsed that statement. Those metropolitan improvements might be very useful and valuable to certain classes, but they were of no benefit whatever to others. They might benefit those who had great shops, and whose traffic filled our streets—they might benefit the wealthier classes. But it behoved the House to remember that if they sanctioned this unnecessary interference with the homes and habits of the poor, they should be very cautious not to touch their pockets in doing so. The increase of the coal tax had not unfrequently been made a pretext by the retail dealer for an advance in the price of this necessary article, and that in a degree far more than commensurate with the amount of the duty. Coal, as fuel, in the metropolis was an absolute necessary of life, and there was no impost to which he understood there was a greater objection, because it was in fact an "Octroi" duty levied in its worst form. He might be supposed to speak in the interests of the coal producer, but he was quite alive to also those of the consumer. He was quite ready to submit to the House of Commons that this tax ought to have expired already, but it had been mortgaged for the benefit of the metropolis, and he hoped that this mortgage would not be allowed to continue beyond its present limits.
  MR. HARVEY LEWISsaid, he entirely agreed with every word which had been said in condemnation of the coal tax. It pressed very heavily on every consumer in the metropolis, but particularly on the poorer classes. They were all aware that I the moment a tax was put upon any article of consumption the retail price rose more in proportion, and this was especially true of the coal tax, which he trusted no attempt would be made to perpetuate. With regard to the Committee moved for by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, it was in his opinion calculated to do a great deal of good, and if its attention was directed to the taxation of the metropolis it might be found that those who had the strongest interest in metropolitan improvement were in reality most free from taxation. In point of fact the taxation fell principally upon the occupiers of the metropolis, while the freeholders, who derived immense revenues from their property, scarcely paid
  1214
  anything. That was a matter which ought to be looked to. Every improvement benefited to an enormous extent the owner of the property, and he ought, therefore, to pay in proportion. There was a strong feeling in the metropolis that the duty upon hackney carriages, which did so much injury to the streets and created a necessity for such extensive repairs, ought to be applied to the improvement of the metropolis, instead of being diverted into the Imperial Exchequer. He would make no suggestion on that point, but the general feeling was as he had said. The hon. Member for Bath had referred to the extraordinary discrepancy between the rating under Schedule A of the parish of St. Pancras, amounting to £3,000,000, and that of the wealthy parish of St. George's, Hanover Square, which was not above a million. But the explanation of that was to be found in the fact that the three great railway termini and canals, all subject to heavy rating, existed in St. Pancras. The same observation would apply to Paddington, where the Great Western had its terminus and the Metropolitan had a station, and where canals also existed. This fully accounted for the apparent disparity.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, with regard to the general questions before the House, there were few which required more careful inquiry than the local management and general taxation of the metropolis. But there was another subject upon which he wished to say a few words, and that was with regard to the comforts of the poorer classes. One would have imagined from what had passed that up to the present Session no one had ever taken into consideration how public improvements, whether in the shape of railways or others, might affect the working classes of this city. Now, it was only due to Parliament to say that a Standing Order—No. 91, made in 1865—of the House of Lords required that—
  "In the case of any Bill for making any works requiring compulsory powers for taking houses occupied wholly or partially by tenants or lodgers, the promoters should be obliged to deposit in the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments by a certain day a statement of the number, description, and situation of such houses, the number of persons to be displaced, and whether any or what provisions were made in the Bill to remedy the evils of such displacement."
  He would be extremely sorry to say anything that would appear to depreciate the efforts made in that House by the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. T. Hughes); but he, at the same time, thought it only fair to read the Standing Order; and, by so doing,

  1215
  show that the attempt to protect the rights of the poor was first made by the other House. He hoped that the House of Commons would adopt a provision similar to that unanimously adopted by the House of Lords, and that in any Bills introduced by the Metropolitan Board of Works care would be taken to insert clauses to make some provision for the poor deprived of their dwellings for the purpose of making improvements.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, he was sure that when this subject was before the House yesterday, the noble Lord who had just sat down was not aware of the existence of the Standing Order which he had read. For his own part he considered that Standing Order to be a very desirable one, and he hoped that it would be adopted by the House. Until the noble Lord read the Standing Order he did not know that any definite action had been taken in the matter, although he was aware that much discussion had taken place, and that during the course of last Session Lord Derby had frequently urged on the House of Lords in the strongest terms the necessity of protecting the poor by preventing their dwellings being destroyed by railway companies. Improvements must be made, but the House should take care that as little harm as possible should be done to the working classes. The question of providing proper dwelling houses for poor persons whose residences had been destroyed by railway companies was one of the greatest difficulty, for the inhabitants of many of the metropolitan parishes objected, in the strongest terms, to dwellings for the labouring classes being built within the limits of their parishes. They did this because they feared that if the labouring classes settled in their parish some of them would finally become chargeable to the parish rates. This difficulty would be obviated if a scheme which he and the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) had often advocated in that House was adopted—namely, the equalization of poor rates throughout the metropolis. If that system was adopted, the rate would not press too heavily on any parish; if, for instance, at present there was to be a uniform rate in all the metropolitan parishes it would amount only to 1s. 6d. in the pound. At present the richest parishes were the lightest taxed, the inhabitants of the parish of St. George's, Hanover Square, for instance, only paying a rate of 6d. or 7d. in the pound. That would be raised, but the equalized rate would be no burden.
  1216
  He thought that it was not fair to expect the working classes to live together in suburban villages; like the rest of the world, they ought to be allowed to live where they wished themselves. If an equal rate throughout the whole area were adopted there would be no longer any disposition to discountenance the erection of dwellings for the working men in any part of the metropolis. Such dwellings should be built where the necessity for them arose, and the working men would not be sent out to suburban places, perpetuating the highly objectionable practice of placing together persons all of one class.
  SIR FRANCIS GOLDSMIDsaid, that up to this time the Standing Order which had been adopted by the Lords had had no practical results, save the introduction of two clauses into three Railway Bills compelling the companies to run cheap trains for the benefit of the labouring classes. He hoped that if the House of Commons adopted a Standing Order, intended to prevent the destruction of houses of the poor by railway companies, they would not adopt one similar to that passed by the House of Lords. If they did, they would find that their Standing Order would prove almost entirely useless for the purpose intended. With respect to the erection of dwellings in the neighbourhood of those pulled down the Standing Order had no effect whatever. He hoped that if the House passed a Standing Order on the subject it would be of a more stringent character than that which had been adopted in the Upper House.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he regretted to hear the hon. Member for Northumberland (Mr. Liddell), and the hon. Member for Marylebone, express a hope that the Committee which had been consented to by Her Majesty's Government would pass by a certain point of taxation which would be brought before them. The question of metropolitan taxation was of the greatest importance, and he considered that the Committee ought to inquire into every possible source of local rating, in order that they might thus, if it be possible, discover some means of reducing the present high rate of taxation. He hoped that the Committee would fully inquire into these matters, and would do everything in their power to place the metropolitan taxation in a more satisfactory position than it now occupied, making the expenditure press as lightly as possible on the poorer ratepayers.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, in reference to what had fallen from the noble Lord (Lord Robert Montagu), that the noble Lord

  1217
  seemed to imagine that he imputed blame to Lord Llanover. He did nothing of the kind. On the contrary, he had spoken with the greatest respect of the noble Lord, and had only regretted that he was compelled by the difficulties which beset him to undertake a course of which he was sure his Lordship did not himself approve. All he had done was to show that with a divided administration the work had not gone on satisfactorily. He had deprecated the introduction of any personalities into the debate, and he had asked hon. Members not to abuse the vestries, and the result of his doing so was that the noble Lord abused him instead. The value of abuse always depended on the weight generally attached to the opinion of the person who used it, and he did not therefore much mind the language that had been used towards him by the noble Lord. Laudari a laudatis was an old maxim, and he supposed that the reverse also held good. The noble Lord had made against him one very serious charge. He had charged him with having used his Parliamentary influence to obtain the passing through the House of a Bill connected with the sewage of the metropolis. Now, there never was made against any man a more unfounded charge, and there was no one who ought to know that fact better than the noble Lord himself. So far from assisting in passing the Bill, he had opposed the concessions made to the promoters as injurious to the public interests. When the Bill was before Committee he then urged that the concessions that had been made to the promoters ought not to have been made. He was defeated in Committee, and he then brought the matter before the House, and succeeded in having the decision of the Committee reversed and the concessions withheld. Such were the simple facts of the case, and yet the noble Lord charged him with endeavouring to get passed a Bill the most important concessions in which he had, in the interest of the public, most strenuously op-posed. He certainly had prevented the noble Lord from sitting upon that Committee, and he was sure that was not prejudicial to the interests of any one. Having set right the only fact alluded to by the noble Lord, the House could now understand what the noble Lord's explanations and opinions were worth; but for his part he did not think them worth notice.
  Motion agreed to.
  Select Committee appointed, "to inquire into the Local Government and Local Taxation of the Metropolis.—(Mr. Ayrton.)
  And, on March 7, Select Committee nominated as follows:—Mr. AYRTON, Mr. TITE, Mr. BAZLEY, Mr. LOCKE, Mr. ALDERMAN LAWRENCE, Mr. BARING, Mr. MILL, Mr. HANBURY, Lord JOHN MANNERS, Mr. BEECROFT, Mr. TURNER, Sir WILLIAM GALLWEY, Sir MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY, Mr. SANDFORD, and Mr. KEKEWICH:—Power to send for persons, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.

EAST INDIA COMMUNICATIONS.

  SELECT COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, he rose to ask the House to consent to the appointment of a Select Committee for the purpose of inquiring into a subject of great and general interest among the commercial classes—namely, the practical working of the present systems of telegraphic and postal communications between this country and the East Indies. He would have been glad if the concurrence of the Government had enabled him to make the Motion as an unopposed one; but he thought it no slight thing to ask the House to lend the weight of its authority to an inquiry of this nature at any period, and especially at the present moment, when so many Members were called on to sacrifice their time in attendance on Election Committees and in the disposal of a very large amount of Private Bill business. Among the many remarkable circumstances which characterized the present day, none was more remarkable than the marvellous development of the commerce of this country during the last few years. This result had been ascribed to various circumstances—to the discovery of gold, to free trade, and other causes; but, in his opinion, nothing could be said to have more led to the promotion of the commerce of this country than the application of the science of the country to extend communication with foreign nations by means of steam navigation and the electric telegraph. Without entering on a disquisition more suitable for a lecture-room than for the floor of the House of Commons, he would content himself with adverting to a few facts connected with commerce, for the purpose of showing the great interest which the trade of this country with the East Indies had in the subject. That trade formed an important part of the whole trade of this country. In 1864, the last year for which we have official accounts in a complete form, the commodities imported into this country amounted in value to £275,000,000, and the commodities exported to £212,500,000. Of the

  1219
  goods imported India supplied no less than 20 per cent, and Ceylon, Singapore, China, Japan, Australia, and the Mauritius supplied II or 12 per cent in addition; so that that portion of the world which was the subject of his Motion supplied no less than one-third of the whole of the imports. In the case of exports, out of the total of 212½ millions those countries took no less than forty-two millions sterling. It might also he important to see what was the description of the goods imported. Of the goods imported from those countries, there had been received no less than £38,000,000 in value of cotton, more than £9,000,000 of various other goods, which entered into the manufacturing industry of this country, and £2,500,000 of articles of food, rice, sugar, tea, coffee, &c. The proposition he submitted to the House was that it was essential not only to maintain the present means of communication between this country and the East Indies, but to push to the utmost the advantages which telegraphic communication afforded. Our trade was now carried on in a manner very different to that which formerly prevailed. The telegraph had almost superseded the post, which had become subsidiary and ancillary to the telegraph, and no important transactions were entered into which were not now communicated by telegraph. In relation to the trade with India it was the custom when goods were shipped for telegraphic information to be sent of that fact. On the receipt of the bill of Jading, if the market were favourable, the goods were sold while on their way to their destination, and by that means the shipper was relieved from a great part of the risk, and was therefore content to receive less than he otherwise would accept, and as the element of risk entered largely into the cost, the public were enabled to obtain the goods at a reduced price. That was one of the advantages derived from telegraphic communication but certainty and rapidity in the delivery of the message were absolutely requisite. The information should be correct and of recent date; but he regretted to say that at present the telegraphic messages between this country and India were most incorrectly rendered. Since the period when he gave notice of his Motion he had received hundreds of letters complaining of the length of time occupied, with the exception of within the last few days, in the transmission of the messages, and of the incorrect
  1220
  manner in which (hey were rendered. He would state a few facts, which would show also in what a remarkably absurd manner the business of the country was treated by the companies to which we confided these telegraphic messages. A mercantile house in Liverpool sent a message in September last to India, as follows:—"Contract for 1,000 bales of cotton"—of a particular description, the value of which was about £20 a bale, and thus the transaction represented a sum of £20,000. The message received in India was "Contract for 21,000 bales," and thus, instead of £20,000, the amount involved was £400,000 more than that sum. Another order sent was, "Buy 500 bales at 12 d." —meaning, of course, that the highest limit at which the agent was to buy was 12 d. The message delivered was, "Buy 500 bales at 20 d.," making a very considerable difference in the price. Indeed, it was well known in the City that the cause of the failure of a mercantile house which took place about sixteen months ago was a telegraphic blunder of this kind. An order was sent to Egypt to buy 500 bales of cotton, and, pursuant to the message as delivered, 5,000 bales were bought, and the house was unable to meet the sum due upon this large purchase. He had been particularly requested to mention other cases which had been forwarded to him from the Chamber of Commerce at Madras, involving similar mistakes. The most ridiculous of all the mistakes in the translation of messages was one that happened to himself during the time the messages were forwarded by way of Italy. He had occasion to send a message to a gentleman in India to the effect that the news from America was to the 10th of the month, and that cotton was in favour of holders. The translation was —"News from America to the 10th—a savour of soldiers." Of course his correspondent did not know what it meant. What our trade required was rapidity and accuracy in telegraphic communication with India. He did not speak, boastfully, but he might state that he himself spent £3,000 a year in sending telegraphic messages to India, the greater part of which he recovered from his correspondents, and this amount was probably less than that paid by many others. He might send a message either through the office of the Electric Telegraph Company or that of the Submarine Company. If he sent it by the former, the message was forwarded to Berlin or Frankfort, thence to Vienna,

  1221
  Belgrade, Constantinople, to the head of the Persian Gulf and to Kurrachee, whence it was distributed throughout India by the internal telegraphic system of India. This telegram passed through seven different administrations. If he sent the message by the Submarine Company it went first to Paris, then through the Austro-German union as in the other case, or by way of Italy through Macedonia, Thessaly, and so on to India. The worst of it was that it was impossible to fix these blunders upon any one. Messages sent from this country to India had to pass through Turkey. The mistakes did not occur in London, nor in Germany, or France, but in Turkey. It was impossible to look for any change for the better so long as messages were forwarded through Turkey, by persons ignorant of the English language, and apathetic as to our customs and wishes. As soon as the message got into the Turkish administration it became subject to the treatment he had described. Many representations had been addressed to the Turkish Government in favour of the appointment of English signallers, but no sooner was anything proposed for the benefit of England than France and Russia became jealous and interposed to prevent it. He had no doubt that if France or Russia asked for anything, England would be equally jealous, and he was assured that it was hopeless to expect any improvement as long as these national jealousies existed. A petition had been presented the other day by the hon. Member for Glasgow from the Bombay Chamber of Commerce, which showed that the telegraphic communication with India had an enormous substratum of business. It was stated that during the seven months from May to November, 1865, there had been 16,462 messages passed to and fro on the line between India and England and the Continent of Europe, of which only 82 were Government messages. The sum received for their transmission was about £51,500, being nearly at the rate of £100,000 per annum for the Mekran portion of the line belonging to the Indian Government. The charge for a message of twenty words from this country to India was £5 1s., of which the Submarine Company only received 2s, 6d., and the Electric Telegraph Company 3s. 6d. or 4s., the remainder being absorbed by the other States and systems through which it travelled. On arming at Kurrachee, the port of Scinde, and the most westerly town of India, the
  1222
  messages were distributed to the various places of business in India. Until lately the service there was almost as bad as that in the Turkish dominions, but it was now improved. Some knowing people I went into the country, and affixing an instrument to the wires brought down the messages. They then sent off men on horseback and sold the intelligence. These persons were apprehended and convicted. When the telegraphic communication with India was carried on by way of Egypt and Point de Galle, some two or three messages were always satisfactorily conveyed. Then it was said the wires were out of order, and no more were transmitted, which, of course, gave a great advantage to those whose messages were sent. Some time ago some gentlemen came to him, as Chairman of the East Indian Railway, and asked if he would consent to an arrangement by which a public company should transmit these messages. It was not the business of a railway company to carry telegraphic messages, and the directors signified their willingness to treat with these gentlemen. They agreed to the terms of the directors, but being a line with a Government guarantee, the directors were unable to act without the sanction of the Secretary of State for India. Their application was sent out to India by the Secretary of State, and when it returned they received a communication that their proposition could not be entetrained. The directors inquired the reasons for this refusal, but the Secretary of State very wisely refused to give any. Why should not this company be established in India for the conveyance of messages along the railway system? A railway was the proper course for the telegraph wires to take. The wires were inspected and could he repaired by every passing train, while the wires of the Government system, passing over mountains and over the plains, could only be inspected by persons employed for the purpose. If the Indian Government intended to set up the principle that the carrying of telegraphic messages in India ought to be in the hands of the Government for political purposes, he ventured to say that the proposition which he should make was deserving of the attentive consideration of the House. In this country the whole of the telegraphic system was in the hands of private companies; but in India the Government, as far as he was aware, intended to institute a totally different system. Now, he

  1223
  thought he subject might fairly be discussed in that House, if the Government defended on such a ground their refusal to allow a private company to utilize for the benefit of India the advantages which railways conferred. He attributed the failure of the existing overland system to the fact that the only line of communication passed through Turkey. As long as we were dependent upon that line alone, it would be hopeless to expect that our communication with India could be satisfactorily maintained. A certain company had possessed itself by a lease from this Government of the exclusive use of the Malta and Alexandria wire, and they had also entered into arrangements with the Italian Government, by which they would be granted the use of a wire through Italy with the privilege of employing English signallers. When all the arrangements were completed the company would be able to carry messages to Alexandria without any of the inconveniences which now existed. The Pasha of Egypt was constructing a telegraph on the banks of the Nile, and it would cross to the Red Sea in latitude 19, where a better bottom was to be found than in the upper parts of the Red Sea. This line would then proceed by way of Aden, and the southern coast of Arabia. In fact, there would be a complete and entire line from England to Bombay in the hands of an English company, who would be responsible to the public for any loss arising from their neglect. He had mentioned the progress which had been made in establishing a different system altogether, and he might remark that the company would require no pecuniary assistance from the Government at all. He wished it to be perfectly understood that he was not stating these particulars with the view of serving the interests of this particular company, and that he was not personally interested in the undertaking. He deemed it right to make this remark, because, on a former occasion, when he and Mr. Sotheron Estcourt addressed the House on the subject of telegraphic communication through Asiatic Turkey, the right hon. Gentleman the present Chancellor of the Exchequer took the opportunity of warning the House against Members making use of their position to support undertakings in which they were personally concerned. If this line were constructed, there would be two separate and wholly distinct lines of telegraphic communication between this country and
  1224
  India. Practically, indeed, there would be three lines of communication, because if anything were to go wrong with that part of the new system which had been suggested eastward of Egypt, messages could be forwarded to Alexandria and then be passed along the Turkish line between that place and Diasbekir on the main Turkish line. He thought he had said enough to lead the House to believe that the subject into which he asked them to authorize a Committee to inquire was one deserving of the attention of the Government. He would now make some remarks on the postal communication with India, which rested on the basis of a contract entered into with the Peninsular and Oriental Company in January, 1853, for the conveying of the India mails for fourteen years. Considering the enormous advances which had been made in the science of steam navigation between 1853 and the present time, it was only fair that the public should have the advantage of any improvement in respect to speed and price which had been brought about by any change during that period. There were besides other reasons which rendered it desirable that the relations existing between the Government and the Peninsular and Oriental Company should be inquired into. He was no opponent of the company, which he believed had for many years past rendered good service to the public, but their vessels were not quite up to the requirements of the present day in regard to speed. Then, again, the Peninsular and Oriental Company now had a monopoly of the whole service, and he thought it was desirable that the contract, which was now subject to annual renewal, should terminate a year hence. The Indian railway system, it should be remembered, was approaching completion. In the course of another year the rail between Bombay and Calcutta would be completed, excepting about seventy miles. Then, of course, the whole postal service of India would pass through Bombay by railway, and it would be wholly unnecessary that any postal communication should be maintained between Aden and Calcutta. At present the postal days to India were the 3rd, 12th, 18th, and 27th of the month, without reference to the days of the week on which those dates fall. About a year ago the mercantile community in England connected with India memorialized the Postmaster General for a mail to India on a certain day of each week instead of

  1225
  specified days of the month, it being suggested that Friday was the day which would best suit the convenience of the whole trading community. The traders in India also presented a similar memorial. In reply to those memorials it was stated in that House by the Secretary to the Treasury that the proposed change would be attended with expense, and would necessitate an extra charge of 6d. on each letter, and that those letters which were now charged 10 d. through France would be charged 1s. 4d. The mercantile community thought that that suggestion was unreasonable, and declined to accede to it. Thus there were abundant reasons why a Committee should be appointed to inquire both into the telegraphic and postal service of India. In recommending that the contract with the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Company should be remodelled, there was no desire to ask the Government to submit to any additional charge; he was quite content to abide by the language used in the Report of the Commission on Postal Contracts in 1853. The Commission held that Parliamentary grants might be properly made to meet the first outlay required for the opening up of new lines of communication and the encouragement of new methods of conveyance; but afterwards, except where there were important political advantages to be gained, these services ought to be self-supporting, and the cost of continuing them should be borne by the persons who availed themselves of them for commercial or other purposes. In the case of the Indian service there was an amount of receipt in the shape of contributions from the mercantile classes which went far to pay the whole of the cost, and there were also political advantages arising from it, such as those contemplated in the Report of the Commission of 1853, and in consideration of which the State might be prepared to defray a certain portion of the expense of maintaining the communication. From the same Report it appeared that in the year 1852 the India and China postal receipts were estimated at £152,564. That was the result of a very elaborate process of calculation, the particulars for which were furnished in the appendix. In the Report of the Postmaster General for the year 1865 it would be found that the number of letters carried between Great Britain and Ireland and India, China, and Japan was 3,632,000, being a considerable increase over the previous year. It was only fair to assume that the number bad been in-
  1226
  creasing from 1852 to 1865; and if the receipts were upwards of £152,000 in the former year they must amount to a sum considerably in excess of that amount at the present time. If that were so, that service must recoup, if not the whole, at all events a large proportion of the sum total paid for it. Therefore, the whole amount voted for the postal service of the country being £850,000 per annum, and the surmised receipts being some £500,000, those who contributed so largely to the maintenance of the communication with India ought not to be made to pay for other lines of communication which were not so successful, such as those to the West Indies. In the Report of the Commission, it was stated that the postal services should be kept up partly at the expense of those whose correspondence was conveyed by them, and partly by the State, in consideration for the advantages it derived from them. He concurred in that recommendation. The advantages which the State derived from our whole organized system of postal communication were not very insignificant. Take some recent instances in illustration. When it was necessary, in connection with the Trent affair, to send troops to Canada, where would ready means of transport for them have been found if the vessels employed on the North American postal service had not been available? Again, in the case of Jamaica, the other day, great benefit resulted from the fact that they were able immediately to send out Sir Henry Storks to that island by one of the West India mail packets which also brought the first intelligence to the Government. In the case of the Crimean War the French largely availed themselves of our vessels for the transport of troops; and so alive were the French to the importance of having always at command a large number of these steamers that in every quarter of the globe where we were at this moment maintaining a subsidized line of communication they were eagerly coming forward to share in the enterprize. They had established a line to Cochin-China; they had also lines connecting Bordeaux with Brazil and Buenos Ayres, Havre with the United States, and other ports with Mexico and other parts of the world. The French saw that if their merchants profited by that system the State likewise derived immense advantages from it. He was not asking the Government to run a race of competition in that matter with our French neighbours or any other foreign nation; yet, as in the case of the line of com-

  1227
  munication with the East Indies, the receipts from the carriage of letters nearly equalled the whole expense incurred, surely the public might reasonably expect that the service should be maintained on a footing of perfect efficiency. They did not want the Government to go to any great expenditure, but only to place their postal communication between this country and the East Indies in a thoroughly efficient state, and on a sound economical basis. The way in which that should be carried out was, that as Bombay should be held to be the great port of India, there should be a separate contract for the service between this country and that port; that parties should be invited to tender separately for these service from Bombay to Suez; and that the services for China, Japan, and the Straits, and for Australia, should be unconnected with the main postal communication between this country and India. By that plan they would break up the practical monopoly now in the hands of the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Company, and enable other persons to compete with it. The time had come when they should endeavour to secure the advantages of competition to the utmost, and when they should be able to look upon the one service of India as wholly distinct from that of Australia. He had been asked whether he would consent to the insertion of words in his Motion which would enable the Committee to include the telegraphic communication with China and with Australia within the scope of its inquiry; but it would tend to hamper the inquiry if, in the first instance, such a vast addition were made to the labours of the Committee. He came forward with a specific complaint—namely, a complaint as to the manner in which the telegraphic services with India were carried on, and also with a distinct allegation that as far as the postal communication was concerned it was susceptible of great improvement without any heavy increase of expense. The Committee should, therefore, in the first instance at least, restrict its inquiry to the particular subjects to which he had referred, and if, when it had completed that part of its task, the inquiry could, upon instruction from the House, be extended to other portions of the question, he, for one, would be very glad. He moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the practical working of the present systems of telegraphic and postal communication between this country and the East Indies.
  MR. HORSFALLsaid, that he seconded
  1228
  the Motion. The clear and able statement of his hon. Friend rendered it unnecessary for him to detain the House for more than a few moments. He should have been glad if his hon. Friend had confined his proposal to an inquiry into the telegraphic communication, without adding the postal communication to it. The two questions were too wide for a Committee to deal with within any reasonable period. As to the telegraphic communication, there were great complaints, both of its extreme irregularity in delivery and its great incorrectness. He would confine himself to stating a few facts to corroborate what had fallen from his hon. Friend the Member for London relative to telegraphs. Like his hon. Friend he had received a great number of communications which he had been requested to submit to the House. He had made a selection, and would give the House a few illustrations of telegraphic irregularity. The first letter to which he would call their attention was one complaining of the telegraphic communication with Bombay. It stated that an order had been sent by telegraph to Bombay for a considerable purchase of cotton. The message, which ought to have been delivered in twenty-four, or at most in thirty-six hours, had not come to hand for thirty-six days, not till after a letter containing a duplicate of the order had been received. The same party received a telegram last month, stating that Mr. H., the managing partner of the concern in Bombay, was leaving in consequence of ill-health, and requesting that a gentleman should be sent out immediately to take his place. A gentleman was sent out at a salary of about £1,000 a year; but soon after a letter arrived from which it appeared that the telegram was not from Bombay; that it was not a man in the position of the partner there who was wanted, but that a clerk of the same name having fallen ill at Madras a person was required to replace him. Within a short period the same parties complained that eleven messages were not delivered at all; four reached in about a month after transmission, and two were unintelligible when delivered. Some four or five months ago application was made to the Electric and International Telegraph Company for repayment of a sum of about £66 for these useless messages. They said they would communicate with the foreign telegraph office, but nothing had been heard of the matter since. He had another letter from Calcutta which stated that in the case of a number of telegraphic messages from

  1229
  Calcutta the time of transmission was from five to thirty-one days. Two messages were sent out on the 16th of December. One reached in seven, and the other in twenty-three days. One writer said he had sent out "a limit" for the purchase of cotton, which limit was very much increased. In another case this limit was sent "Increase 5 per cent," which was altered to "Increase liver per cent." One house sent to Madras in six months 250 messages, and received 153, at a cost of nearly £4,000, and it so happened that many of those telegrams had never been delivered at all, while in other cases those which had been sent last were delivered first. The only way in which this could be accounted for was that the operators in Turkey not being fond of hard work, waited till they got a number of those messages, when, having previously filed them, they commenced to work them off; so that those which were filed last got their turn first. He did not vouch for that as a fact, but it was one of the statements put forward. He had received one or two suggestions to the effect that the only remedy for the irregularity was to have British "signallers" appointed. They had the evidence of the hon. Member for Greenwich (Sir Charles Bright) that between Bussorah and Kurrachee, that portion of the line being worked by English signallers, messages were sent a distance of 1,500 miles in little more than half an hour. He had received a communication from the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce, which had been endeavouring to collect information on the subject. In answer to the inquiries made by the Chamber, an extensive house said that, in their experience, the irregularity was so uniform that they found it difficult to single out instances of irregularity. Every telegram they received was a fresh illustration of the very defective and unsatisfactory working of the system. His hon. Friend had made out a very clear case on the part of the mercantile community; but those who asked for a reform in this telegraphic system might go further. There was no one who had relatives in India but felt that this was a social question, and no one knew better than Her Majesty's Government its importance in a political point of view. He hoped that when his hon. Friend got his Committee he would put practical men upon it—men competent to grapple with the subject; and that if we could not have a perfect, we should at least have an improved system of telegraphic
  1230
  communication between this country and India.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the practical working of' the present systems of Telegraphic and Postal Communications between this Country and the East Indies."— (Mr. Crawford.)
  SIR CHARLES BRIGHTsaid, that having been practically engaged in the construction and laying down of the portion of the line under discussion in the first part of the speech of the hon. Member for London, he hoped the House would permit him to add the expression of his regret that a line with which so much pains had been taken, and which had cost so much money, should have occasioned so much disappointment. He took it for granted that the Turkish Government was desirous of carrying out the convention; but so little interest did the Turks feel in the matter, that when he arrived from Scinde he found that the line between Bussorah and Bagdad was delayed for a year, owing to some miserable local squabble between the Governor of Bagdad and some of the tribes, and operations in the Turkish dominions had been retarded a whole year. The working of the Indian line had been described as the most wretched in the world. Except for the bad working on the Turkish portion of the line, messages might be sent with the greatest possible regularity between England and Kurrachee in three or four hours, But on arrival at Kurrachee, the distribution of messages to Bombay and Madras was performed in a wretchedly bad manner. He had met a gentleman waiting as long as seven days at Bombay for a telegram, and he had been obliged to wait himself for two or three days for a telegram between Kurrachee and Bombay, a distance of 500 miles. It would be difficult to exaggerate the importance of this line in a political sense, and while it was working so badly it would be impossible to extend our telegraphic system through Australia and China.
  MR. MOFFATTsaid, he was glad his hon. Friend the Member for the City (Mr. Crawford) had put the telegraphic before the postal communication, but he did not concur with his hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool (Mr. Horsfall) that he ought to have omitted the postal communication altogether. On the contrary, he believed the one was so connected with the other that a Committee would arrive at very imperfect conclusions if it separated them. In expressing the gratitude of the mercantile community to his lion. Friend for having

  1231
  brought the subject — which he hoped would meet with a full inquiry—under the notice of the House, he might say in reference to a great corporate body, the Peninsular and Oriental Company, that, instead of shrinking from inquiry, or wishing to evade it, they courted the fullest investigation. They were justly proud of their position, for where was the corporate body which had progressed more rapidly and with greater benefit to the public as well as to themselves? It must be admitted that they had done much to promote intercommunication between England and our Indian Empire. It was quite true that that Company was established fourteen years ago, but they had progressed more rapidly than any other trading corporation. Again, it was said that there was a monopoly, but the corporation to which he referred invited all comers, if they were able to do the work better. Still, there were many things which ought to be done which were not done. The service might be greatly improved, the expense possibly lessened, and the public in every way benefited by inquiry. As a mercantile man, and representing a great mercantile and shipping constituency, he entirely concurred in the appointment of a Committee.
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, that the House was much obliged to the hon. Member for the City for the very lucid and interesting statement he had made in introducing his Motion. It would be unnecessary for him to enter into any lengthened discussion of the various points adverted to by his hon. Friend, because the Government, as had already been intimated, did not intend to oppose the Motion; on the contrary, indeed, they would afford him their hearty support, as they were of opinion that benefit would result from the investigation of a Committee. The proposed inquiry would be divided into two branches—the working of the telegraph system, and the working of the postal system between this country and India. His hon. Friend had, he thought, done right in including the postal system in his proposal, for the two subjects were intimately connected. But the other question was he considered rightly placed first, the telegraph being now so generally used for purposes of business that it was rapidly superseding postal communications. It was expedient that the House should know exactly what faults existed in the great telegraph lines connecting this country with those countries with which our commercial intercourse was on so large a scale. At the same time, his hon. Friend must not
  1232
  take it for granted that the Amendments which he had suggested—however easy of execution they might appear—would entirely remedy the faults which he had pointed out, or that the existence of those faults was a matter of special blame to the companies who happened at the present moment to have the whole of this business in their hands. If the lines of other telegraphic companies were to be subjected to as minute an examination, it might happen that as grave blots would be found in them as those with the description of which his hon. Friend had amused the House. The subject was one of great difficulty, and where the line passed through several foreign countries, in which different systems prevailed, difficulties existed which could not be grappled with at once. Considering the short period during which the lines had been in operation, it would be unjust to treat them in a hostile spirit and broadly to condemn their operations. On the other hand, he must admit that the present state of affairs was not satisfactory. It must be understood that the Committee was not to be used for the purposes of attack on one company or obtaining subventions for another, but to consider what practical improvements could be made in the system. With respect to postal communication with India, the remarks of his hon. Friend ought to have great weight with the House. The postal arrangement with India had not hitherto been made upon a regular plan, but almost haphazard, as it were, extending now in one direction, now in another, as the temporary occasion required. We had been in such a state of transition both as regarded commerce and political affairs in the East, that he could not point to any particular moment when it would have been thoroughly safe to take up the whole question. He thought, however that the present was a time when the subject might be looked into with great advantage to the public service, especially as a new route to Calcutta, which, with the exception of sixty miles, would be completed in a few months, was about to be brought into operation. That would put the whole question upon an entirely new footing, for communications would be far more rapid by the new railway through Bombay than the present route through Madras and Point de Galle. We were also now approaching a time when the railway would be completed to South Italy, and the communications with Alexandria by Brindisi would be much quicker than they were by Marseilles. The hon. Gentleman had not

  1233
  noticed the present well-organized system under the French Government through Marseilles, Egypt, Point de Galle, Suez, Singapore, and China. It appeared to him that we had not sufficiently considered to what extent we could avail ourselves of that service which another Government, in a spirit of enterprise, had extended to the extreme East. The present was a fitting occasion for considering the whole matter dispassionately, and the Government would desire to have in the Committee the assistance of thoughtful men of business who could devote time to the inquiry. It was most desirable that in dealing with the question of postal communication the question of economy should not be lost sight of; for at present, notwithstanding the annual contribution of £30,000 by Australia towards the line between England and India, there was a loss on this line of between £80,000 and £90,000 to the Home Government. On these grounds the Government had much pleasure in acceding to the proposal of his hon. Friend.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he rose to make a personal explanation which was forced from him. In former years he had warned the House against being led astray by recommendations with respect to telegraphic communications with the East, made by hon. Members on behalf of undertakings in which they were personally interested. In doing so there was no intention to make any reflection on any particular person, and least of all was there any such intention with respect to his hon. Friend (Mr. Crawford). In the year 1857 his hon. Friend had distinctly recommended that public money should be used in order to establish a line of railway in connection with India. Not having any official responsibility, he did what he hoped independent Members would ever agree to do—defend the public purse. On that occasion he said the House of Commons should regard with great jealousy recommendations made by Members of Parliament of schemes which, however interesting they might be from a benevolent point of view, were substantially commercial undertakings, and ought to be allowed to stand or fall as such. That was the head and front of his offending.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, that when the railway over Mont Cenis was completed there would be a saving of forty-two hours in the communication between this country and the East.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that independently
  1234
  of the Mont Cenis Railway, there was another line through Italy in a very advanced state, by the Splugen Pass and Brindisi. When it was completed it would open another route to Egypt, by which the inconvenience of crossing the snow-clad Alps would be avoided.
  Motion agreed to.
  Select Committee appointed, "to inquire into the practical working of the present systems of Telegraphic and Postal Communications between this Country and the East Indies."—(Mr. Crawford.)
  And, on March 9, Select Committee nominated as follows:—Mr. CRAWFORD, Lord STANLEY, Mr. GUILDERS, Lord ROBERT MONTAGU, Mr. STANSFELD, Admiral SEYMOUR, Mr. AYRTON, Mr. TURNER, Sir HENRY RAWLINSON, Mr. BAILLIE, Mr. WEGUELIN, Sir CHARLES BRIGHT, Mr. LAIRD, Mr. MOFFATT, and Mr. SCHREIBER: Power to send for persona, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.

PUBLIC LIBRARIES' ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. W. EWART MR. W. EWART moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Free Public Libraries' Act. He said, that twenty-five public libraries had been established under that Act, besides Schools of Art and Museums. Those institutions were not only open to all choosing to avail themselves of the advantages which they offered, but, being generally connected with lending libraries, extended their benefits in all directions. The object of the Bill which lie asked leave to introduce was to afford facilities for collecting the rate, by collecting it with the general rates instead of by itself, and for making the Act apply equally to all parts of the United Kingdom.
  MR. F. S. POWELLsaid, he gladly welcomed any measure having for its object to render more efficient the Free Public Libraries.
  THE CHANCELLOR or THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, my hon. Friend need not expect opposition. On the contrary, the Government will afford him every support and assistance for the success of his Bill. I cannot refrain from seizing this opportunity of cordially congratulating my hon. Friend on having been permitted, during a long and honourable Parliamentary life, to see the gradual development of the fruit of his labour, and to watch these institutions spread throughout the great centres of population where it is so desirable they should exist. My hon. Friend's name is associated with many achievements of public utility, but with this act of legislation, I think, he may feel assured that

  1235
  his name will be associated not only during his life, but after he is gone.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill to amend the Public Libraries Act, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WILLIAM EWART and Mr. DUNLOP.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 44.]

CATTLE DISEASES (IRELAND) BILL.

  [BILL 37.] COMMITTEE.
  (Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland, Sir George Grey.)
  Order for Committee read.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clauses 1 to 9 agreed to.
  Clause 10 (A Fund to be provided for defraying Expenses of this Act to be assessed by the Poor Law Commissioners).
  MR. S. B. MILLERsaid, he was anxious to introduce an Amendment giving effect to the terms of the Report made by the Commission presided over by the noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth (Lord Naas). That Report had been moved for on the 13th of February, but it was only that day that Members had been able to obtain copies. It was owing to the indefatigable endeavours of the noble Lord that Ireland was at present free from the cattle plague. Ireland did not ask for entire indemnity, but for contribution towards the expenses that would be necessary should the plague unfortunately reach that country. The suggestion contained in the Report was that the expenses of carrying those orders into execution, save the sums to be paid as compensation for the compulsory slaughter of animals, should be defrayed out of monies voted by Parliament.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, across the table, that it was not competent to the hon. Member at such a stage of the Bill to introduce so important a Motion.
  MR. S. B. MILLERsaid, that owing to the non-production of the Report, no earlier opportunity had been open to him. The Report showed on what abundant grounds the Motion was based. He asked in common justice for a full indemnity in the manner suggested by that Report for such expenses as might be rendered necessary by the creation of a staff of veterinary surgeons, inspectors, and other officers whose appointment had been rendered expedient by the fact that the plague had been allowed to reach in this country the height which it had at present attained.
  1236
  He moved, as an Amendment, the insertion of words providing that the amount of compensation paid under these circumstances should be defrayed by means of money voted by Parliament.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he was in hopes the few words he had spoken across the table would have relieved the Committee from the necessity of discussing the Amendment. The hon. Gentleman had not taken his seat in the House in the present Parliament for the first time, and therefore ought to be aware that the course which he was pursuing was almost without parallel. The proposal by private Members of public charges was well-known to be opposed to all the rules laid down by the House for its own guidance, although within the last few years words had been inserted by means of which those rules had been rendered ineffective. The point, however, to which he wished to call special attention, was that of founding on a document not in the hands of Members—
  MR. S. B. MILLER: Yes, it is. It was presented this morning.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is not a Parliamentary paper.
  MR. S. B. MILLER: Yes, it is.
  LORD NAAS: I moved for it a few days since.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Well, be that as it might, he did not think the hon. Member—who had given no notice of his Amendment—were he to ransack the Votes of the House from one end to the other, would find an example of such a proceeding as that to which he had just had recourse. He proposed, in a House of not more than forty Members, and upon the discussion of the clauses of a Bill in reference to which not a single notice of Amendment had been given, to lay down a totally different principle on the question of compensation from that which had received the sanction of Parliament in the case of England. For his own part he had not had an opportunity of considering that proposal at all, and he must not be regarded as giving to it any encouragement under the circumstances. He would, however, put it to the hon. Gentleman, as a matter of propriety, whether he would press his Amendment?
  MR. S. B. MILLERsaid, the right hon. Gentleman ought to be aware that the Bill had been read a second time only that very morning at two o'clock; that the Report on which he relied had been placed in his hands only that very day, that he there-

  1237
  fore could not have given notice of the Amendment, and that that was therefore the only manner in which he could raise the question.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the hon. Gentleman might have adopted the very obvious course of giving private notice on the subject to his right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland, who might then have postponed the Committee on the Bill.
  MR. S. B. MILLERsaid, he scarcely felt himself authorized in taking any step in the matter without communicating with his noble Friend the Member for Cocker-mouth (Lord Naas), whom he had only seen a short time before, and to whose exertions he repeated it was, under Providence, due that Ireland was free from the cattle plague at the present moment.
  MR. BAGWELLsaid, that the Bill had been brought forward at the request of the Irish Members generally, and it was scarcely reasonable when the House went into Committee upon it that such a proposition as that of the hon. Gentleman should be made. It was advisable, in his opinion, that the people of Ireland should themselves pay what the Bill proposed, and that the Government should take the responsibility in the event of an outbreak of the disease. The action of the Government in the matter under consideration was, in his opinion, an unmixed good, and he did not think it becoming in representatives of Irish constituencies to appear at the eleventh hour in opposition to the Bill.
  LORD NAASsaid, he considered the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been a little too hard, under the circumstances, on his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. S. B. Miller). Although the latter might have made an unusual Motion, it was by no means unparliamentary. He should be sorry to delay the progress of the Bill, even if they obtained the object his hon. and learned Friend had in view. He hoped, as the opinion of the Committee was against him, that he would consent to withdraw his Amendment. The proposition, it was but right he should say, had been well considered in Ireland, and he did not see that his hon. and learned Friend was to blame in bringing the subject before the Committee. It was thought in Ireland that the extra duties which the constabulary and others (who were paid out of the Consolidated Fund) would have to perform under this Bill might be paid by the country.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, he would recommend the hon. and learned Gentleman not to divide the Committee, as in the then state of the House it might become a dropped Order.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 11 to 13 agreed to.
  LORD NAASsaid, he would suggest that a larger sum than 2d. in the pound should be levied upon the occurrence of the event contemplated by the clause, and suggested that 1d. should be substituted for 2d.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

  CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS.
  Mr. WALPOLE reported from the General Committee of Elections; That they had selected the following twelve Members to be the Chairmen's Panel, and to serve as Chairmen of Election Committees for the present Session:—Hugh Edward Adair, esquire; The Right honourable Edward Pleydell Bouverie; Stephen Cave, esquire, New Shorehani; Edward C. Egerton, esquire, Macclesfield; Edward Ellice, esquire; Thomas William Evans,esquire; William Henry Gregory, esquire; The Right honourable John Robert Mowbray; The Right honourable Lord Naas; George Sclater-Booth, esquire; Henry Hussey Vivian, esquire, Glamorganshire; Charles Watkin Williams Wynn, esquire, Montgomeryshire.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  PRINCESS HELENA'S ANNUITY BILL.
  Bill "to enable Her Majesty to settle an Annuity on Her Royal Highness the Princess Helena Augusta Victoria,"presented, and read the first time. [Bill 42.]

  PRINCE ALFRED'S ANNUITY BILL.
  Bill "to enable Her Majesty to provide for the Support and Maintenance of His Royal Highness Prince Alfred Ernest Albert, on his coming of Age," presented, and read the first time. [Bill 43.]
  House adjourned at Nine o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—Second Reading— Cattle Plague (27.)
SMALLPOX IN SHEEP.

  QUESTIONS.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMONDasked the Lord President of the Council, Whether the Government has received any distinct information respecting the existence of the smallpox among sheep in this country; if so, he wished to know in what counties it had made its appearance; and whether the Government intends to take any steps in the matter?
  EARL GRANVILLEreplied, he was sorry to say that the disease had broken out in Northamptonshire and also in another place. The Government had sent down an inspector into that county to make inquiries and send in a report on the subject.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHasked, whether the Government had taken, or contemplated taking, any steps at the ports of entry with a view to guard against the spread of the infection?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the Custom House authorities took the same precautions with regard to sheep arriving from abroad as had been taken for some time past with regard to the arrival of cattle.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONasked the noble President of the Council where the second case of smallpox had occurred?
  EARL GRANVILLEreplied, that unfortunately, he could not at that moment recollect where the second case had occurred.

CATTLE PLAGUE BILL—(No. 27.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I rise, in pursuance of an understanding come to last night, to move the second reading of this Bill. As I stated on that occasion, the Bill is not one which, while moving its second reading, I can treat in the ordinary way. It is usual, when the Government asks your Lordships to read a Bill a second time, for the Minister to defend its principle, and also to defend the details by which that principle is to be applied; but I cannot take that course on this occasion. As I understand it, the object
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  of the Bill is to give effect to an opinion entertained by agriculturists and other persons that in regard to restrictions on the movement of cattle a uniform rule should be established all over the country, so as to avoid that confusion which it is supposed might arise from various regulations issued by local authorities by virtue of Orders of the Privy Council. I need scarcely observe that the subject is a very difficult one to deal with; and in any comments which I may offer on this Bill, I wish it to be understood that in no sort of way do I make any reflection on the hon. Gentleman the Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Hunt), who in the preparation of the Bill and its carriage through the other House bestowed so much attention on a subject so difficult and at the same time so important. The principle of the Bill is to prevent the movement of cattle by highways, canals, or rivers from the 1st of March to the 24th of the same month; but so many exceptions were found necessary that, as I stated yesterday, no less than sixteen were formally introduced into the Bill; and there are some additions to even those sixteen exceptions. The first provides that within any district which the Privy Council may declare free from the disease nothing in the Act shall prevent the removal of live beasts. In the same clause certain powers are given to the local authorities of these same districts to impose restrictions or conditions on the introduction of live beasts into their districts, and on the removal of beasts from place to place within them. Then there is an exception, in accordance with which beasts may be moved from one building, yard, or field to another, in the same occupation, on the public highway, for a distance of 200 yards; and a further exception, by which the distance may be increased to two miles in cases where a licence shall have been procured for the purpose of the immediate slaughter of the beasts at a slaughterhouse. Your Lordships will find that Scotland has been more liberally dealt with than England in regard to exceptions, for while in this country the distance for which cattle can be moved on any highway for the purpose of slaughter is limited to six miles, in Scotland there is no limit to the distance for which beasts may be moved for that purpose—in fact, an animal may be brought through the most infected counties of Scotland. Another of the exceptions is one in favour of sound milch cows moved in a covered

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  van for the purpose of being placed on a vessel outward bound. There are exceptions permitting the moving of animals for breeding purposes. Another exception enables persons to send sound calves not more than twenty-one days old on any highway, in a cart or other vehicle, for a distance of ten miles, and there is another exception with respect to beasts imported. My Lords, I do not mean to cavil with these exceptions; but the mere fact that they are to be found in the Bill shows how difficult a question this is to deal with in detail. Those who have supported the principle of the Bill insist on the necessity of uniformity in the regulations against the cattle plague; but when we find that to the one general and principal provision of the Bill there are these numerous exceptions, I submit we are much more likely to create confusion than to establish any clear rule, and I fear we may conclude it will be quite impossible to have the details of the measure generally understood within the short time during which they are to be in force. It would appear that three weeks would not be too long a time to allow the local authorities to master the provisions of the Bill and put them in operation; but by that time these provisions will have expired. It is quite true that the Privy Council are to have power in regard to a renewal of restrictions; but from the first it has been contemplated by every one that at an early date all restrictions on the movement of cattle must be put a stop to; because it would be impossible to keep them in operation at the period when there is a considerable change of tenancy, and I need hardly observe that if we allow such provisions as these to drop and afterwards take them up again, such a proceeding will lead to very great confusion. On the whole, my Lords, I cannot but think that though the principle of this Bill is one of uniform restriction, yet so limited is the operation of that principle, owing to these numerous exceptions, that the provisions of the Bill are not so stringent as those which are being carried out by the local authorities under the authority of the Orders in Council. From the information which we are receiving I learn that the system in operation under the local authorities is now working very well. I cannot ask your Lordships to pledge yourselves to any particular provisions of this Bill, some of which I do not myself approve. At the same time, there are some of its clauses
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  which will be very valuable additions to the Cattle Diseases Bill; and therefore I think we should do well to read it a second time, with a view to its careful consideration in Committee. There are many clauses which it would be a pity not to pass, and there are others which, with slight modifications in Committee, can be rendered very useful. There is apparently no reason, for instance, in cases where cattle are being illegally removed, why it should require but one justice to deal with the offending driver, while it requires two to deal with the beast. Clauses relating to the removal of hides, and also to the point which the noble Earl opposite mentioned the other evening as to the difficulty in some cases of finding a sufficient quantity of earth to inter diseased animals, are also, I think, susceptible of useful handling in Committee. Upon the clauses relating to cattle-trucks, pens, and one very useful restriction upon dogs, your Lordships also will, no doubt, wish to bestow attention. There are several other clauses of a miscellaneous character; but having briefly sketched the character of the Bill, and explained to your Lordships how it is proposed to deal with it, I do not think that I need enter into details, which will be more fitly considered by the Select Committee. Being anxious not to lose any time, I at first consulted with sonic noble Lords of great influence in this House the propriety of sitting to-morrow, contrary to the usual practice. I found, however, that it was quite impossible for Her Majesty's Government to fulfil their pledge of considering in the meantime what Amendments they would introduce. The earliest moment at which I can pledge myself that these Amendments will be in your Lordships' hands will be at the meeting of the House on Thursday. This also will afford time to noble Lords individually to consider what improvements they would wish to see made in this Bill, with a view of making its provisions such as they ought to be. If the Motion be agreed to, and the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, then, as it is most important that clear views should prevail on the subject, I hope that noble Lords who intend to move Amendments will be good enough to give notice of their nature, so that we may be in possession of the general character of all the Amendments before entering upon the discussion.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
  LORD BERNERSsaid, he should support the Motion for the second reading, regarding the measure as supplementary to that which had already passed. He would direct their Lordships special attention to the 28th clause, which related to the disinfecting the cattle pens and trucks by railway companies, which appeared to him to be very stringent. He was glad to observe that the powers of the inspectors had been to some extent restricted; but, on the part of a great body of the agriculturists of the kingdom, he felt bound to say that compensation to the amount of one-half was too little to induce farmers to come forward and give information as to the existence of the cattle plague, and he believed that in saying so he was but speaking the opinion of many Members of the other House as well as of a vast proportion of the agricultural body. The power which the Bill contained of preventing trespassers from entering upon the land was very salutary.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, he agreed with almost everything which had fallen from the noble Earl the President of the Council, but differed from some of the conclusions drawn from those observations. A Bill of some sort was absolutely necessary; but if its duration were restricted to the 25th of March, it would be practically inoperative, because the shortest time in which it could pass would be about ten days, and between the passing of the Bill and the 25th of March it would be impossible for the country to become acquainted with its provisions and bring them into working order. The Government and the country must look upon this not as a temporary measure, but as a measure showing the way in which the cattle plague ought to be dealt with during the ensuing summer. He entirely agreed with the noble Earl that to include in the Bill detailed regulations and lists of exceptions on the subject of prohibition was most un-advisable. It was far better to prohibit the movement of cattle altogether, leaving a discretionary power in the hands of the local authorities. He regarded as a most valuable clause that which the Government originally proposed in the other House, empowering the local authority to decide upon the area to be treated as infected, for any rule laid down upon this point in an Act of Parliament was altogether deceptive. In some parts of England two miles, in others twenty miles, was not a long distance. As a rule the inspectors
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  did not possess the confidence of the country, although no doubt many of them were persons of great merit. As to the question whether the proposed licences should be signed by one or more magistrates, he thought it desirable that more than one should sign them, but he must remind their Lordships that in many parts of England that was almost impossible. In conclusion, he would suggest that one of two courses should be adopted with a view to stop the movement of cattle. Either that Parliament, having prohibited cattle traffic, should leave it to the local authorities to say by what means the prohibition should be insisted upon; or else that the local authorities should be left to impose such restrictions as they thought fit upon the movement of cattle. He did not, however, think so well of the latter course as the former, because it would be throwing too much responsibility upon the local authorities.
  THE EARL OF WINCHILSEAthought the Bill had come before their Lordships a little too late; had it come earlier, however, it would have been most useful, for while the plague was within a small compass it might have been stamped out; but that could not be done now. With the solitary exception of the clause preventing the importation of live foreign cattle to renew the plague, he was of opinion that the provisions of the Bill, if they became law, would simply add annoyance to the injury caused by the plague. How could they expect the provisions of the Bill would put an end to the disease when it was increasing every day? The inspectors reported 13,000 cases a week. Most probably, if full returns had been made by all the inspectors, they would be told the number was 15,000, and, no doubt, in a short time it would be 20,000. It had been well said the disease was an infliction by Providence. He acknowledged it as such; and, at the same time, recognized it as a visitation of improvidence. Bad arrangements had created the disease, and the country must pay the penalty. He feared that the enactments of this Bill would not secure the end in view, and that a Bill containing better considered provisions would he found necessary.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHwas glad the noble Earl the President of the Council had taken the initiative in proposing that this Bill should be referred to a Select Committee; but the desired to make some observations upon the subject of the compulsory and indiscriminate slaughter ordered

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  by the Bill which they had already passed. Public opinion was rapidly changing in respect to the advisability of adopting the principle of indiscriminate slaughter, and he thought that it would be found necessary to relax the severity of the rules now in operation. He would remind their Lordships that the first Report of the Commissioners was decidedly against the principle, and he should be glad to hear some account of the reasons which had since induced them to alter their opinion and report the very opposite. It had been said in support of the principle that it was adopted with much success upon the Continent; but he would remind their Lordships that in foreign countries the system was carried out under peculiar circumstances. When the disease broke out in an isolated district a military cordon was drawn around the place, and not only was it forbidden to remove the hides, hoofs, and other similar things, but even persons were not permitted to go out from the district; so that complete isolation was ensured. Under such circumstances, the system of indiscriminate slaughtering might he successfully carried out; but in England it was impossible to secure complete isolation, and his belief was that the Act would result in the needless destruction of a vast number of animals which would otherwise have recovered. In his part of the country the regulations as to slaughtering had come upon the farmers quite unawares. They had no notion of the severity of the measure which had been enacted until it came upon them with the force of law, and, of course, they were most unwilling to have their convalescent cattle destroyed. The feeling of dissatisfaction was therefore becoming very strong among the farmers, especially as the percentage of recoveries were daily increasing—for whereas formerly the proportion of cattle that recovered was 10 percent it was now, whatever the reason might be, 30 or 40 per cent. He therefore trusted their Lordships, who would consider the Bill in a Select Committee, would see the necessity of adopting some measures to modify the orders for indiscriminate slaughter contained in the Act which had been passed. He would also advert to another point of importance, It was most desirable that their Lordships should be put in possession of the number of cattle in this country, and compulsory powers to obtain it should be held by the Government. In conclusion, he joined with the noble Lord who had preceded him when he expressed a hope that
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  out of a fair and impartial consideration of the provisions of the Bill before them some means might be adopted which, under the blessing of God, would tend to stop the fearful scourge now visiting the country.
  THE DUKE OF BUCKINGHAMdesired to call to the attention of their Lordships that the time was approaching when every one of the Orders in Council relating to the movement of cattle would have to be revised. About the middle of next month, from change of tenancy and other causes, considerable movements of cattle must take place, and he feared that when these Orders came to be revised by the local authorities, they would get into great difficulties and trouble. He thought it would have been better for the country if the Government had availed themselves of this Bill to introduce clauses giving effect to some of the proposals of the measure brought in by the Government in the House of Commons at the meeting of Parliament. He thought also that the powers should be taken for a much longer period than three weeks—a period which he thought utterly useless, for it was impossible to suppose that the cattle plague would have been got rid of by the 25th of March. He thought, therefore, that some prospective restrictions should be enacted, and he believed these restrictions would be better carried out by Parliament than by allowing the local authorities latitude in dealing with the disease. If this Act were not passed it would be open to the local authorities to throw open markets and fairs throughout the country.
  THE EARL OF ROMNEYwas understood to say, that if their Lordships had gone into Committee he should have proposed certain exceptions with regard to portions of Kent.
  Motion agreed to: —Bill read 2a accordingly, and referred to a Select Committee.
  The Lords following were named of the Committee; the Committee to meet on Friday next, at One o'Clock, and to appoint their own Chairman:

  His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales

  E. Doncaster

  E. Airlie

  E. Cowper

  Ld. President

  E. Spencer

  Ld. Privy Seal

  E. Carnarvon

  D. Richmond

  E. Grey

  D. Marlborough

  L. Berners

  D. Buckingham and Chandos

  L. Stanley of Alderley

  L. Lyveden

  M. Salisbury

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE—ELECTORAL RETURNS.

  RETURNS MOVED FOR.
  LORD STRATHEDEN, in moving for certain Returns relating to the number of Voters and £10 houses in England and Wales, said, that a general impression existed that the proportion of electors to the population had of late years declined. He had no doubt that vague assertions to this effect had been made to their Lordships; but as far as he was aware there was no evidence to prove the truth of such statements. If he was not mistaken it was shown during the inquiry made upon the subject in 1860 that in some constituencies the percentage of electors to the population was much larger than at the time of the Reform Act. On another point much doubt prevailed as to whether the proportion of houses above compared with those below a £10 rental. Some persons believed that the proportion of the £10 houses was increasing in boroughs, whereas others were of opinion that, owing to the destruction of low-class houses for railways and other purposes, the proportion was diminishing. In order to clear up the matter, he now begged to move for Returns showing the proportion of voters to population in the general election of 1835 and in the general election of 1865, and showing the proportion of houses at and above the value of £10 and the houses beneath the value of £10 in boroughs of England and Wales during 1835 and 1865. The noble Lord then moved—
  "That there be laid on the Table of this House Return showing the Proportion of Voters to Population in General Election of 1835 and in General Election of 1865: And also,
  "Return showing the Proportion of Houses at and above the Value of £10 to Houses beneath the Value of £10 in Boroughs of England and Wales during 1885 and during 1865."
  EARL RUSSELLsaid, he was afraid that the Returns, if agreed to by the House, would not furnish the information the noble Lord desired. In the first place, there were no Returns of the population for 1835. There were certain Returns for 1865 which would before long be laid on the tables of both Houses; but as to the other Return, the only Office from which it could be obtained was the Poor Law Board; but he had inquired there and had been informed that it would be quite out of the question to attempt any such Returns, because no parish could inform them
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  with any accuracy of the number of houses below £10 in the year 1835 within their boundaries. The Government had ordered Returns bearing on the electoral question which had been in preparation since November last, and those papers would show, he thought, everything which could be presumed to appertain to the subject. If, however, the noble Lord should think those Returns, when produced, insufficient, he could move for additional Returns. But he thought it would be useless to order a Return that could not be produced. There were 1,600 parishes in boroughs sending Members to Parliament; and to ask them what was the rating of every house thirty years ago would be a useless attempt. He could not, therefore, consent to the Returns asked for.
  LORD STRATHEDENsaid, that after the explanation of the noble Earl, he would withdraw his Motion.
  Motion (by Leave of the House) withdrawn.

THE CATTLE DISEASE IN SCOTLAND.

  MOTION FOR A PAPER.
  THE EARL OF AIRLIE, in rising to move for a copy of a Memorial to the Privy Council from the Proprietors and Tenant Farmers of Kincardineshire, praying for the suspension of that part of the Act of 29 Vict. c. 2, Clause 15, which relates to the slaughter of cattle, and for a Copy of the answer to that Memorial, said: The memorial for which I move is one which I am told had been signed by a large number of men of the highest standing in the county of Kincardine, and by many of the most respectable tenant-farmers of that county. I have not seen the memorial; but I understand that the memorialists state that, under a system of cure which they have recently adopted, they have succeeded in saving 90 per cent of the cases submitted to that treatment. The memorial is signed, amongst others, by Sir Thomas Gladstone; and it is possible that your Lordships may have observed a letter from that gentleman in the morning papers of to-day, in which he states that out of fifty-three cases submitted to a particular mode of treatment, no less than forty-seven are doing well. Now, I think it is very desirable at this time that cases of this kind should be brought under your Lordships' consideration. You have recently passed an Act authorizing the indiscriminate

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  slaughter of cattle; and I think it is right, if that Act is to be continued in operation without any modification whatever, that you should be made aware of what it is you are doing, so that if this principle of indiscriminate slaughter is to be persisted in, it will at least not be carried out in ignorance of the consequences. Now, my Lords, I observe that Her Majesty's Commissioners, in their second Report of the cattle plague, after giving the number of diseased animals which were killed, what died, what recovered, and what were unaccounted for out of 120,740 cases down to the 27th January, go on to say—
  "From the above figures it will have been observed that as the number of diseased animals killed has diminished, the percentage of attacks among the animals exposed to infection has increased, whilst the percentage of deaths from disease among the animals attacked has risen still more steadily and in a greater proportion. Were slaughtering entirely abandoned the recoveries would probably not exceed 15 per cent."
  I think that the recent Returns bear out the results of that observation. According to the last Return, if you take throughout the whole country, the average number of recoveries as compared with the total number of cases does not amount to more than 12 per cent. But there is nothing more remarkable than the amount to which the death-rate varies in different localities. I am afraid, in order to make myself fully understood, that I shall have to trouble your Lordships with some figures; but a matter of this kind is one which turns almost entirely upon figures and statistics. I take it that your object is to save as large a number of cattle as possible; and it he-comes a question of figures whether it is desirable to slaughter a certain number, and what percentage of the animals attacked recover. Turning to the last Report which has been issued by the Veterinary Department of the Privy Council, I find that in the English counties the percentage of recoveries to cases has been rather more than 10 per cent—about 10½ per cent. In the Metropolitan Police district the percentage of recoveries has been 4, and in Wales 12; while in Scotland it has been 20 per cent, so that hero you have a margin of nearly 16 per cent between the greatest proportion and the smallest proportion of the recoveries in different districts. But the discrepancy, I say, is still more remarkable in the percentage of recoveries if you take particular districts. To show this, I will take four counties in England and four counties in Scotland.
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  I will take in England the counties of Cambridge, Chester, York, and Kent. In those counties I find that from the first outbreak of the disease down to the 19th of February, there have died from the disease, and been killed as diseased animals, 51,863; 7,392 have recovered, so that the average of recoveries to deaths has been 1 to 7. In Cambridgeshire, 4,656 died and were killed; 356 recovered, and the proportion of recoveries to deaths was 1 to 13. In Cheshire, 28,480 died; 7,506 recovered—the proportion of recoveries being 1 to 11. In Yorkshire, 17,365 died, and 4,445 recovered—the proportion being 1 to 4; and in Kent, 1,362 died, 85 recovered—the proportion being 1 to 16. I will now take four Scotch counties—Forfarshire, Perthshire, Kincardineshire, and Clackmannanshire. In those counties the total number of deaths has been 12,945, and of recoveries, 4,819—showing an average of about 1 recovery to 3 deaths. In Forfarshire, 8,292 died, and 2,971 recovered—the proportion being about 1 to 3; in Perthshire, 3,424 died, and 1,336 recovered—the proportion being 1 to 3; in Kincardineshire, 983 died, and 323 recovered—the proportion being still 1 to 3; and Clackmannanshire, 246 died, and 189 recovered—the proportion of recoveries being 2 to 3. That Report is from the commencement of the disease down to the 17th February; but if you simply look at the return for the week ending February 17 last, the discrepancy is still greater. In the four English counties I have already referred to, 4,800 died, 733 recovered —the proportion of recoveries to deaths being a little more than 1 to 7, or nearly the same as during the whole continuance of the disease. But in the four Scotch counties of Forfar, Perth, Kincardine, and Clackmannan the total deaths were 797 to 422 recoveries—the proportion of recoveries having risen from 1 to 3 to rather more than 1 to 2; and these figures include also many of the old cases. In Forfarshire, 408 died and 206 recovered—the proportion of recoveries being 1 in 2. In Perthshire, 276 died and 136 recovered— the proportion being 1 in 2. In Kiucardineshire, 104 died and 69 recovered—the proportion being 3 in 5; and in Clackmannanshire the deaths were 7 against 11 recoveries—the proportion of recoveries being 11 to 7. In the English counties the average has not changed; but in the Scotch counties, while the average during the whole period was three deaths to each

  1191
  recovery, during the week ending the 17th February there were only two deaths to each recovery. I said the other day that in the county of Forfar the percentage of recoveries now amounts to nearly 50 per cent. I believe that I was within the mark in making that statement, for my hon. Friend the Member for the county of Forfar, who is himself a practical agriculturist and is thoroughly conversant with that part of the country, informs me that in the case of milch cows the farmers in Forfarshire now succeed in saving two out of every three. One of them writes as follows:—
  "In fact, deaths are becoming the exception wherever the owners are watchful and discover the first symptoms in time."
  He adds—
  "The farmers here are almost panic-struck by the strangeness of the Bill. They were in hopes of a large number of recoveries."
  In a letter from another farmer in the same county, the writer states that if the Act is put in force 2,000 cattle will be slaughtered, with regard to which at present there is a fair chance that from 1,800 to 1,900 might be saved. It is not only in Kincardineshire that the provisions of this Act are looked upon with consternation, but in Forfarshire, Aberdeenshire, and all the adjoining counties the greatest alarm and terror have been spread. And who can wonder at it? It is not the mere value of the animals destroyed, but the whole machinery of farming will be thrown out of gear. If the animals were destroyed where is the manure to come from? And, if the farmer cannot get manure, how is he to go on cultivating the land at all? I have never opposed the principle of extirpating the disease by slaughter when it can be done at a proper time and in a proper way. When the disease first breaks out, and you have only ten or fifteen centres of infection to deal with, by all means do all you can to extirpate the disease; but when it has ravaged a county from end to end—and in some counties at this moment there is hardly a single sound beast—it is the height of folly to apply the same iron rule as in cases in which the disease is only just appearing. And let me remind your Lordships that it is not only the animals affected by the disease that you run the risk of extirpating by this summary proceeding. Let me call your attention to what occurred the other day at Montrose. Professor Simonds, the Government inspector, went down there to report upon
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  certain cures which were alleged to have been effected by Mr. Worms. Mr. Simonds reported that many of the cases were not cases of cattle plague at all. Now, if they were cases of cattle plague, Mr. Worms has succeeded in curing them; and if they were not cases of cattle plague the local inspector had certified them as such, and under this Act they must have been slaughtered. Surely, if the Government are to tie up the hands of the local anthorities by stringent rules, they are hound to furnish officers who can tell when an animal is suffering from the cattle plague and when it is not. When I turn to another section of the Act which you have passed, I find that you have made the inspectors absolute in this matter. It is provided in that section that the certificate of an inspector to the local authorities declaring that an animal is infected shall be conclusive evidence in all Courts of Justice and Law that the animal has been so infected; so that by that means you leave it in the hands of these ignorant inspectors appointed by the local authorities to slaughter wherever they think proper. We have heard a good deal about the recommendations of the Royal Commission; but I do not recollect that the Royal Commissioners distinctly in so many words do recommend the slaughter of animals. On the contrary, I find in the evidence given before the Commission a great deal that goes against the indiscriminate slaughter of cattle. I find that Professor Gertach, who was examined in Austria, only recommended slaughtering when the disease is confined to a small space. In France, a discretionary power is given to the prefects to slaughter. In Austria slaughter is only resorted to while the plague is confined within narrow limits. After it has spread beyond a certain range, it is considered that all attempts to extirpate the disease by destroying the animals is hopeless, and that the only remedy is rigid isolation. Under all these circumstances, I think it very difficult to acquit the Government of blame for the course they have taken in regard to the Bill that was passed the other day. We were told by Members of the Government again and again that the Sill had been hastily drawn up, and that it had been prepared in a great hurry. But I want to know why it was prepared in a hurry? The cattle plague was nothing new. We had had the cattle plague in the country for seven months; and the evidence given to the Royal Commissioners

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  bad been before us for three months. Surely in the time that had happened since then the Government might have framed a measure worthy of being presented to Parliament when it met. I do hope that the Government will, at all events, consider it their duty to institute an inquiry in those districts where the disease appears to be just making its appearance. They ought to send persons down to ascertain first if the cases reported as cases of disease are really cases of cattle plague; and they should not allow this indiscriminate slaughter to go on without at all events giving us good reason to hope that it is absolutely required. The noble Earl concluded by moving an Address for—
  "Copy of a Memorial to the Privy Council from the Proprietors and Tenant Farmers of Kincardineshire, praying for the Suspension of that Part of the Act of 29th Vict. Cap. 2. Clause 15, which relates to the Slaughter of Cattle; and for a Copy of the Answer to that Memorial."— (The Earl of Airlie.)
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he did not think it necessary that he should now enter into discussion on a point which had been decided only a few days ago by a very large majority of their Lordships. He did not think it would lead to any practical purpose to go into the question, but he had no objection whatever to the production of the correspondence for which the noble Earl had moved.
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.