Sitting of 6 February 1866

Preamble
The House met at One of the clock.
Several other Members took and subscribed the Oath; and several Members professing the Soman Catholic Religion took and subscribed the Roman Catholic Oath; and one Member professing the Jewish Religion took and subscribed the Oath in the manner prescribed for such Members.
A Message from Her Majesty, by Sir Augustus Clifford, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod—
"MR. SPEAKER,
"The QUEEN commands this Honourable House to attend Her Majesty immediately, in the House of Peers."
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, with the House, went up to attend Her Majesty:—
And having returned;
Mr. SPEAKERresumed the Chair at a Quarter before Four of the clock; and several other Members having taken and subscribed the Oath:—

Ordered, That a Committee of Privileges be appointed.
OUTLAWRIES BILL.
Bill "for the more effectual preventing Clandestine Outlawries," read 1°; to be read 2°.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Rules, Orders, and Forms of Proceeding, of the House of Commons relating to Public Business, 1866.

VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS.
The Sessional Orders being moved according to custom, on the Order—
"That the Votes and Proceedings of this House be printed, being first perused by Mr. Speaker, and that he do appoint the printing thereof; and that no person but such as he shall appoint do presume to print the same,"
SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENsaid, he had a suggestion to offer on the subject. The House was aware that in the heading of the Votes the days of the week to which they referred were printed in Latin. He thought the time had come when an alteration should be made in this respect. The matter might not be of much importance; but it was rather inconsistent that while the heading of the Votes, and the hour and day to which the House adjourned, and in the Notices the days of the week and month, were in English, in the Votes the days of the week and the months should be in Latin. There ought to be at least uniformity in the printing of their proceedings. There was a time when all legal proceedings were printed in the Latin language, but a hundred years ago that was changed. He knew it was in the power of the Speaker to direct the alteration which he suggested—namely, the printing of the headings in English; but he was sure the right hon. Gentleman would not be disposed to change the present system without an expression of the wish of the House.
MR. WALPOLEsaid, that the matter was one quite within the discretion of the Speaker. If it were thought convenient that the days of the week should be printed in English instead of Latin, he did not think any one would raise an objection to the hon. Baronet's suggestion.
MR. SPEAKERsaid, that in early days the Votes were printed solely for the use of Members; but now they were published and circulated for the information of the public also. Perhaps, therefore, the use of one language throughout would be more convenient. With the concurrence of the House he should be happy to give directions to that effect.
[And the proposed alteration was made from the commencement of the Session.]

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH FROM THE THRONE.
MR. SPEAKER reported. That this House has, this day, attended Her Majesty in the House of Peers, when Her Majesty was pleased to make, by Her Chancellor, a most gracious Speech from the Throne to both Houses of Parliament; of which, Mr. Speaker said, he had, for greater accuracy, obtained a Copy:—
And Mr. SPEAKER read it to the House.

ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY ON HER MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid: Sir, I rise to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, in reply to the gracious Speech we have just heard read. Seldom, if ever, has there been a Speech from the Throne which has been delivered under circumstances so impressive, or which has dealt with topics of so grave an import, as that with which Her Majesty has just opened this the seventh Parliament of her reign. Her Majesty has this day, once more, disregarding the painful effort to herself, and at the cost of re-awakened memories too deep for me to touch upon, re-appeared amongst her people, and met them through their representatives in Parliament assembled. In the short interval since Her Majesty summoned this Parliament she had lost the counsels of that old and experienced statesman whom the country has mourned as one man. In her Speech, Her Majesty has had to call the attention of her Parliament to topics of so painful a nature as the recent events in Ja-
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maica, the conspiracy in Ireland, and the disease amongst the cattle in England; and, finally, she has again informed us that a measure will be introduced for the important object of an extension of the franchise. Under these circumstances, I feel that I need not trouble the House by an appeal for a large measure of that kind indulgence which it is ever ready to extend to those in circumstances similar to mine. I can only state that if I had not felt that the position I now hold was conferred upon me on account of the importance of the great constituency which I have the honour to represent, I should not have been emboldened to undertake my present task.
Her Majesty has informed us that she has recently declared her consent to a marriage between her daughter the Princess Helena and the Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein Sonderbourg-Augustenburg. An event so closely touching Her Majesty's own personal happiness cannot but excite the deepest feelings of the House. I am sure the words of the Address I have to move will, in this respect at least, not only be passed with unanimity, but will express the heartfelt wishes of the House in assuring Her Majesty that the House joins with her in the hope that the union may be prosperous and happy. In like manner the Address will express the feelings of the House in assuring Her Majesty that they join with her in profound grief at the death of Her Majesty's beloved uncle, King Leopold, that old and experienced King whose death has left so great a blank amongst the rulers of Europe. The House will also share the confidence which Her Majesty states she entertains that the wisdom evinced by the late King of the Belgians during his long reign will "animate his successor, and preserve for Belgium her independence and prosperity." Her Majesty has given us the gratifying assurance that our foreign relations are friendly and satisfactory. Inasmuch as the noble Lord, to whom the Queen has intrusted the first place in her Councils upon the death of Lord Palmerston, has been during the late Government primarily responsible for the conduct of foreign matters, it is but natural that the foreign policy of the present Government should resemble that of the late one—that policy of which the country expressed so distinct and emphatic an approval at the late elections. That it is identically the same

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Her Majesty's Speech contains abundant proof. That cordial alliance with France, of which so signal a testimony has been recently given to the world by the friendly meeting of the fleets in the ports of their respective countries, is still maintained and still exercises its beneficial influence in the promotion of peace throughout the world. For, Sir, we are informed that the good offices of Her Majesty's Government, in conjunction with that of the Emperor of the French, are at present occupied in the attempt to restore peace between Spain and Chili. And as these good offices have been accepted by Spain, there is good ground for hoping that the causes of disagreement will be removed in a manner which will satisfy the honour of both countries. In like manner the Treaty of Commerce with Austria, the negotiations for which had been begun under the Administration of Lord Palmerston, have been brought to a successful conclusion; and I believe that benefits will accrue to both countries under this treaty, similar to those which have ensued under the French Treaty. Again, the correspondence between Her Majesty and the United States, with respect to injuries inflicted on American commerce by cruisers under the Confederate flag, has been brought to a conclusion by the present Foreign Secretary in much the same manner as it would have been had it fallen to the late Prime Minister to conclude it. The next topic on which I have to trouble the House is the recent events in Jamaica. Not even in that tropical climate has ever a storm more suddenly gathered and burst over its inhabitants, than did the news of the events which had happened in Jamaica burst upon the people of England. As far as I know, not a trace of anything suggestive of such events is to be found in the Papers laid before Parliament relating to the affairs of Jamaica. At the end of the year 1860 Sir Charles Darling, the then Governor, in a most able despatch depicting the state of the island, summed up its results in these words—
"Thus it is that Jamaica at this moment presents, as I believe, at once the strongest proof of the complete success of the great measure of emancipation, as relates to the capacity of the emancipated race for freedom, and the most unfortunate instance of a descent in the scale of agricultural and commercial importance as a colonial community.
It was under these circumstances that the disturbances occurred at Morant Bay, which ended in the massacre of many
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of the leading inhabitants of that part of the colony, and which was believed by the Governor and by the great majority of the white inhabitants of the island to be a part of a widely extended conspiracy, such that nothing but the most severe measures could prevent Jamaica from becoming a second Hayti. Under such circumstances this most deplorable outbreak took place. Her Majesty's Government have thought it right that there should be an impartial inquiry into those events, and that the Papers relating to them should be laid before Parliament. Under these circumstances, I do not think it would be wise now to enter into any discussion of the question. Many charges have been brought against Her Majesty's Government for the suspension of Governor Eyre; but I must say that I feel that the course of the Government was not only the right one, but was the only one the Government could pursue. For it is not to be understood that by this suspension the Government has passed any sentence of disapproval on Governor Eyre. So far from its being so intended by them, the step they have taken is similar to that taken by the Government of the Earl of Derby when Sir John Young was suspended for awhile from the office of High Commissioner of the Ionian Islands, and the right hon. Gentleman the present Chancellor of the Exchequer was sent out there. It was for the interest of Governor Eyre himself, that such a course should have been taken. I am sure that his name would not stand as high as it should stand until it has been proved by an impartial inquiry that the measures taken by him were necessary; and how could the inquiry be impartial if Governor Eyre remained Governor while the inquiry was being conducted? Her Majesty has informed the House that the Legislature of Jamaica has proposed that the present political constitution of the island should be replaced by a new form of government, and that a Bill on the subject will be submitted for our consideration. The present state of things having met with the unanimous disapproval of all classes, we can only hope that one of the results of the new measure will be that the Government of Jamaica will be at last placed on a satisfactory footing. Her Majesty states that she watches with interest the proceedings which are still in progress in British North America with a view to a closer union amongst the Provinces. We must all feel

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it to be desirable that all these colonies, which are destined on a future day to be one great empire, should be gathered together into one great confederation. I must now say a few words respecting the plague amongst the cattle which has caused such fearful ravages in many counties. I am sure that the expression of Her Majesty's sympathy, which has been so kindly expressed in the Speech, will be a great comfort to those persons who have suffered so severely from the loss of cattle through means of this disease. When the disease first broke out Her Majesty's Government issued a Commission of Inquiry into the remedies that could he adopted for the suppression of the disease and the measures that might be calculated for its prevention; various orders also were issued giving powers to local authorities to adopt measures for its repression. I have seen that the Government has been very generally taken to task for not having dealt with this evil in another form—by assuming the responsibility of issuing some general Order to prohibit totally the removal of cattle throughout the country. Even now at the present moment, when we all know how serious the evil is, there is great doubt in the minds of some, who know much more about the cattle disease than I can pretend to know, whether such prohibition would not tend rather to the spread of the disease than otherwise. It is necessary that cattle should be killed in order that meat should be obtained. For that purpose cattle must be either sent to market or killed at the farmstead. Now, I think it is a question whether the butcher, going from farm to farm and slaughtering cattle, would not do more to spread the disease than would be done by sending the cattle to market to be killed there. However that may be, we must all recollect that when the cattle disease first broke out we were not only without experience as to what were the wisest steps to be taken, but also the public were not at that time prepared for them. Even supposing the best measures could have been discovered by the Government, and could have been ordered by it, it would have been impossible to have carried them out. At the time there was not sufficient alarm or panic in the country for the purpose. By giving the necessary powers to various local authorities different experiments have been tried. In the county of Aberdeen the experiments have been followed, I believe, by the most successful results; and I believe that that, or
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some such plan, may be generally adopted throughout the country. Her Majesty has given the House the pleasing assurance that the state of trade is satisfactory. In spite of the cattle disease, there never have been such general signs of prosperity throughout the country. And, Sir, our satisfaction is increased by the consideration that that satisfactory state of trade means not only wealth to the great manufacturer and capitalist, but that the advantages resulting from it are also fully participated in by the labouring classes. In former days the great problem was what to do with the superfluous population of the country; but the difficulty now in many parts of England is to find labourers for the work to be done. A few months ago we in England might have said that this prosperous state of things extended to Ireland, and that the condition of that country was materially improving—that she was recovering from the series of bad harvests from which she had suffered for the three or four years previous. But a severe blow against that reviving condition has been struck by that conspiracy, which Her Majesty has characterized in her Speech as "dangerous alike to authority, property, and religion," and as "disapproved and condemned alike by all who are interested in their maintenance without distinction of creed or class." A panic and alarm had been thus caused in Ireland which we can scarcely realize in England. The price of land has gone down; no new engagements for the expenditure of capital are entered into. The measures adopted by Her Majesty's Government have met with the unanimous approval of the country. They waited until they had sufficient evidence to act decisively, and when the moment came they struck a decisive blow by the arrest of nearly all the leaders of the conspiracy. Convictions have attended nearly the whole of the prosecutions which have been instituted, and this fact has shown unmistakably the loyalty of that class of men of whom the juries are composed, and the general satisfaction of the people of Ireland at the conduct of Her Majesty's Government has been shown by the holding of such a meeting at Dublin as has seldom been seen in the country before. Persons of all politics and all religions met together and approved of the conduct of the Government. The first most important object is, no doubt, to restore confidence, and whatever further measures may be

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required to accomplish this I trust they will be taken by the Government. But though the restoration of confidence is the first, I cannot think it to be the only duty of the Government. A conspiracy which has been disapproved of by all the influential classes of the country, and which has been deprived of nearly all its leaders, and which still remains, must have some strength in it. This strength lies, I fear, in the wide-spread disaffection amongst the lower orders of the people. For this disaffection there must be some cause. It may be the traditional hatred of Celt against Saxon. It may be the recollection of former misgovernment and of former suffering, or it may be that there still exist causes which keep it alive. Whatever be the cause, I trust inquiry will be made—and, if causes do exist, that Her Majesty's Government will deal with them with a prudent, but bold and decided hand. It is no use shutting our eyes to the facts of the case. Not only is there great disaffection amongst the lower classes of the people still in Ireland, but hundreds of thousands of Irishmen yearly leave our shores with feelings of permanent hostility to England.
After the length at which I have already troubled the House, I will not refer at any length to the various measure which are to be laid before the House, and to which allusion has been made in the Royal Speech. In the debates of the last Parliament upon the subject of Roman Catholics there was a general unanimity of opinion that at any rate some parts of the oath required to be taken by them ought to be amended—that when it was so amended that all the oaths should be made uniform—and that a measure for accomplishing such an object ought to be introduced under the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government. In accordance with that general opinion, Her Majesty has announced that a measure will be introduced during the present Session. Her Majesty also informs us that she has directed information to be procured in reference to the rights of voting in the election of Members to serve in Parliament, and that when the information is completed
"the attention of Parliament will be called to the result, with a view to such improvements in those laws as may tend to strengthen our free institutions and conduce to the public welfare."
I rejoice to see that the noble Lord at the head of the Government (Earl Bus-
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sell) has recently announced that by the measure of Reform to be introduced that Government had decided to stand or fall. At this present moment the attention of the country is not diverted by fear of war or by the existence of any war, as was the case at the time of Lord Aberdeen's Government and Lord Palmer-ston's Government, who were in power when the Italian war occurred. The Reform question is one of such importance, and it has been so long before Parliament, that there is a general unanimity of opinion that it is time it should be settled. There are many who think that, considering the present prosperous state of the country, considering the general contentment and loyalty of the people, there is no reason for a change; yet I venture to think that it is prudent, just, and wise now to legislate upon the question. Prudent, because since the time of the last Reform Act, when the middle classes obtained power by the assistance of the working classes, great progress had been made in the power of the working classes themselves, by the increase of their intelligence and power of combination. It is not prudent that such a power should be without the legitimate means of exercise through and in support of the institutions of the country. It is just, because considering how vitally affected are the interests of these classes by the legislation of this House, by questions of taxation, and, above all, by the great questions of peace or war—considering these things, it is only just that—consistently with the rights of others—the voice of the working classes should be heard in the deliberations of Parliament. It is wise, because I think it is the part of high statesmanship to call forth the whole power of the State, and that can alone be done by extending, as widely as can with safety be done, political rights and responsibilities. Such are the questions which Her Majesty has recommended to our attention, and upon which we shall have to deliberate and decide. Upon these deliberations and upon these decisions will in a great measure depend the future state of our country; and this being the case, I feel the House will gladly join in the prayer of Her Majesty that "In these and all other deliberations the blessing of Almighty God may guide our counsels to the promotion of the happiness of her people." In conclusion, he begged to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:—

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"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to convey the thanks of this House for Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech from the Throne:
"Humbly to thank Her Majesty for informing us that She has recently declared Her consent to a Marriage between Her Majesty's Daughter the Princess Helena and Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein Sonderbourg-Augustenburg, and to assure Her Majesty that with Her we trust that this union may be prosperous and happy:
"Humbly to assure Her Majesty that we participate in the profound grief felt by Her Majesty at the death of Her Majesty's beloved Uncle, the King of the Belgians; but that we feel confident that the wisdom which he evinced during his Reign will animate his Successor, and preserve for Belgium her Independence and Prosperity:
"Humbly to express our gratification at learning that Her Majesty's relations with Foreign Powers are friendly and satisfactory, and that Her Majesty sees no cause to fear any disturbance of the General Peace:
"To assure Her Majesty that we trust that the meeting of the Fleets of France and England in the Ports of the respective Countries has tended to cement the amity of the two Nations, and to prove to the World their friendly concert in the promotion of Peace:
"Humbly to assure Her Majesty that we learn with satisfaction that the United States, after terminating successfully the severe struggle in which they were so long engaged, are wisely repairing the ravages of Civil War; and that, with Her Majesty, we regard the abolition of Slavery as an event calling forth the cordial sympathies and congratulations of this Country, which has always been foremost in showing its abhorrence of an institution repugnant to every feeling of justice and humanity:
"Humbly to thank Her Majesty for informing us that the exertions and perseverance of Her Majesty's Naval Squadron have reduced the Slave Trade on the West Coast of Africa within very narrow limits:
"To thank Her Majesty for directing Copies to be laid before us of the Correspondence which has taken place between Her Majesty's Government and that of the United States, with respect to injuries inflicted on American Commerce by Cruisers under the Confederate Flag:
"To express our thanks to Her Majesty for informing us that Diplomatic Relations with Brazil have been renewed, and that the good offices of Her Majesty's Ally the King of Portugal have contributed essentially to that happy result:
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"To assure Her Majesty that, with Her Majesty, we regret the interruption of Peace between Spain and Chili, and that we earnestly trust, that through the good offices of Her Majesty's Government, in conjunction with those of the Emperor of the French, the causes of disagreement may be removed in a manner honourable and satisfactory to both Countries:
"To thank Her Majesty for informing us that the Negotiations, which have long been pending in Japan, have been brought to a conclusion in such a manner as to receive Her Majesty's entire approbation; that the existing Treaties have been ratified by the Mikado; and that stipulations have been made for the revision of the Tariff in a manner favourable to Commerce, and for the punctual discharge of the Indemnity due under the terms of the Convention of October 1864:
"Humbly to express our thanks to Her Majesty for informing us that Her Majesty has concluded a Treaty of Commerce with the Emperor of Austria, which Her Majesty trusts will open to that Empire the blessings of extended Commerce, and be productive of important benefits to both Countries:
"Humbly to thank Her Majesty for informing us that in consequence of the deplorable events which have occurred in the Island of Jamaica, Her Majesty has been induced to provide at once for an impartial Inquiry, by appointing a distinguished Military Officer as Governor and Commander of the Forces; that Her Majesty has given him the assistance of two able and learned Commissioners, who will aid him in examining into the origin, nature, and circumstances of the recent Outbreak, and the measures adopted in the course of its suppression; and that the Legislature of Jamaica has proposed that the present Political Constitution of the Island should be replaced by a new form of Government:
"To assure Her Majesty that we will give our careful consideration to the Bill on this subject, which is to be submitted to us:
"To thank Her Majesty for directing Papers on these occurrences, and on the present state of New Zealand, to be laid before us:
"To convey our thanks to Her Majesty for informing us that directions have been given for the return to this Country of the greater portion of Her Majesty's Regular Forces employed in the Colony of New Zealand:
"To assure Her Majesty that, with Her, we watch with interest the proceedings which are still in progress in British North America with a view to a closer union among the Provinces,

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an object to which Her Majesty continues to attach great importance:
"Humbly to assure Her Majesty that we have observed with great concern the extensive prevalence, during the last few months, of a virulent Distemper among Cattle in Great Britain; and that it is with deep regret, and with sincere sympathy for the sufferers, that we have learnt the severe losses which it has caused in many counties and districts: whilst it is satisfactory to know that Ireland and a considerable part of Scotland are as yet free from this calamity, which gives us reason to trust, with Her Majesty, that by the precautions suggested by experience, and by the Divine blessing on the means which are now being employed, its further extension may be arrested:
"To thank Her Majesty for directing the Orders which have been made by the Lords of Her Majesty's Privy Council by virtue of the powers vested in them by Law, with a view to prevent the spreading of this disease, to be laid before us; and to assure Her Majesty that our best attention shall be given to the expediency of an Amendment of the Law relating to a subject so deeply affecting the interests of the People:
"Humbly to thank Her Majesty for having directed that the Estimates of the ensuing year shall be laid before us, and for having caused them to be prepared with a due regard to economy, and to the maintenance of efficiency in the Public Service:
"To thank Her Majesty for informing us that the condition of Trade is satisfactory:
"Humbly to express our thanks to Her Majesty for informing us that a Conspiracy, adverse alike to Authority, Property, and Religion, and disapproved and condemned alike by all who are interested in their maintenance, without distinction of creed or class, has unhappily appeared in Ireland, and that the Constitutional Power of the ordinary Tribunals has been exerted for its repression, and the authority of the Law firmly and impartially vindicated:
"Humbly to assure Her Majesty that our serious consideration shall be given to the Bill to be submitted to us, founded on the Report of the Royal Commission on the subject of Capital Punishment; to the Bills for amending and consolidating the Laws relating to Bankruptcy, and for other improvements in the Law; to the measures for extending the system of Public Audit to branches of Receipt and Expenditure, which it has not hitherto reached, and for amending the provisions of the Law with respect to certain classes of Legal Pensions; and to the subject of the Oaths taken by Members of Parliament:
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"To thank Her Majesty for directing that information should be procured in reference to the Rights of Voting in the Election of Members to serve in Parliament for Counties, Cities, and Boroughs, and to assure Her Majesty that, when that information is complete, our earnest attention will be given to the result thus obtained:
"Humbly to assure Her Majesty that, with Her, we fervently pray that the blessing of Almighty God may guide our counsels to the promotion of the happiness of Her Majesty's People."
MR. GRAHAM said: Mr. Speaker—Sir, I rise to second the Address which has now been proposed, profoundly sensible of the honour conferred on the great constituency which I represent, and on myself by my being invited to do so, and soliciting the patience and indulgence of the House, of my need of which in the discharge of that duty I am most painfully conscious, and which I am assured will not, in such circumstances, be denied me. There must be but one feeling of loyal satisfaction in all our minds in that the Queen has come down to-day in person to address us, and to inaugurate the new Parliament by her presence, and return to the more prominent engagements of public life, whose constrained absence from them has been regarded with so profound sympathy. And although in this new Parliament we miss the familiar face of one who had been so long the presiding spirit of the House of Commons—whose name had become a household word in all our homes—a watchword of our rights and liberties throughout the world, I rejoice to think that, great as is the loss we have sustained by his death, the prosperity and the progress of our country are not dependent on individual lives, however illustrious or gifted, and there is no inconsistency between the deepest and most earnest sense of that loss, and the most perfect confidence in the new leaderships for which it makes room. The Address refers to the subject of Parliamentary Reform, and promises a measure for its accomplishment; and for this department of the work before us these new leaderships seem peculiarly adapted—adapted alike by the acknowledged confidence of those at the head of Government in the wisdom and justice of Reform, and by their proved possession of the confidence of the country. Whatever truth there may have been in the allega-

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tion of indifference in the past, it cannot be asserted that there is such indifference in the country now. True, there is none of the passionate excitement of former days, for such excitement would be altogether out of place. No radical change in our institutions is contemplated. Never were these institutions more loyally appreciated than now. No prevailing sense of wilful and persistent wrong stirs up men's passions or calls for violent protest, although it-rests with those who are opposed to such Reform to awaken these passions by obstruction. Nor is there even any hesitation as to the willingness of the Legislature to grant what is desired. On the contrary, there is a calm, confident, universal persuasion that the claim will be allowed. We have all parties in the State pledged to some measure of Reform. We have no party of any weight desiring changes of a revolutionary character such as would overturn the balance of our institutions or the fair share of any class in the direction of the Government, nor is there any necessity for delay in order to a prolonged previous inquiry as to the effects of contemplated alterations, since there are already means of ascertaining, sufficiently accurate for all practical purposes by machinery in existence in connection with our Poor Law system, how, and to what extent, the various constituencies would be affected by any given changes in the qualification. And if it be so, surely it were greatly to be deplored if any personal or party considerations, or any tendency to divided counsels, should delay the settlement of a question which cannot be evaded, and which will be all the more difficult the longer its settlement is deferred.
Reference is made in the Address to those deplorable occurrences in Jamaica which have naturally excited Be much attention in this country, and in regard to which opinion is still much divided. On the one hand, we have been startled by the severity of the measures employed— a severity alien to the habits and traditions of our national policy, and which has been resented by the instincts of our people. "We have been startled by the limited amount of evidence furnished in official documents as to the reality of the crisis which alone could justify that severity, by the apparently unconstitutional character of some of the proceedings, and by the shameful levity of tone and feeling, and the bitter antipathies of race and
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creed manifested in much of the correspondence of those who have been actors in these tragedies. On the other hand, our sympathies have naturally been enlisted on behalf of our countrymen placed in circumstances of imminent danger, or believing themselves to be so—sympathies all the stronger for the too recent memories of the fierce passions of the Indian mutiny and the cruel martyrdoms of Cawnpore. We have felt that too hastily to doubt the good faith of our fellow-countrymen, and to stigmatize them rashly as the aggressors in so ferocious a conflict, were treason alike to our common blood and to our common Christianity. Nor has the tried character of the Governor of the island, for ability, integrity, and humane regard to the native races of other colonies, appealed in vain to our sense of justice in his behalf, forbidding us to condemn hastily even where his own official correspondence might seem insufficient for his acquittal. In these circumstances, Government have adopted a course which must commend itself to every unbiassed mind. The inquiry which they have appointed a Royal Commission to conduct will no doubt be prosecuted with all despatch, and it is our duty to await the result. I am persuaded that the decisions of this House thereon will be in accordance with justice—that no intemperate prejudice shall prevent the honourable acquittal of all or of any who have acted worthily in a great crisis, or a lenient interpretation of their mistakes who may have endeavoured to do so, but that, on the other hand, no partiality of rank, or race, or creed, or official position, shall determine our judgment to an unjust conclusion. But remembering that evidence as to character is no sufficient answer to the evidence of facts, if it shall unhappily prove true that in a paroxysm of panic or of passion truth and right have been trampled under foot, this House will never be their accomplices who have so abused the delegated authority of England, nor suffer her boasted humanity to become a by-word of the nations, by turning a deaf ear to the cry of innocent blood.
"Whilst public opinion has been agitated by these lamentable events in a distant dependency, we have not been without causes of anxiety at home. The Fenian conspiracy, to which the Address refers, however chimerical in its aims and contemptible in the disproportion between its pretensions and its powers, however alien in its origin—and it is entirely so—how-

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ever organized by men who had antecedently renounced their allegiance and severed the ties that bound them to this country, is nevertheless an indication not to be neglected that passions and prejudices hostile to peace and good government exist in the minds of some portion of the Irish people. And whilst Government have acted energetically and temperately and effectively in suppressing that conspiracy, it may be well, now that it is suppressed, to ascertain whence these passions and prejudices have arisen, that, if possible, we may remove them; whether there may not be still some impressions of injustice in the relations between landlord and tenant, some want of adaptation in the means of education to the wants of the people, or some positive wrong in the arrangements connected with the religious institutions of the country. Nor must such questions be regarded chiefly from an English or a Scottish, but rather from an Irish point of view, and in so far as we can do so, without sacrifice of principles or Imperial interests, giving all weight to the opinions of those who, as representing Irish constituencies, have the best right to be heard on Irish questions. Much, no doubt, of the feeling in Ireland is unreasoning and traditionary, but not the less is it our duty and interest to investigate and to remove every just cause of complaint.
There is good reason to congratulate the country upon the general prosperity of trade to which the Address refers. Notwithstanding a severe crisis in the spring of last year on the collapse of the Confederate cause in America, which occasioned a depreciation of not less than £12,000,000 to £15,000,000 on manufactures and raw material, the property of this country, the general results of the year's trade, have been satisfactory, and have more than retrieved the losses of the autumn of 1864 and spring of 1865, and the very crisis has contributed to our prosperity by enabling us to import our supplies of cotton at a reduced cost. The operatives in the cotton manufacturing districts who had suffered great hardships in the three preceding years are now fully employed at high wages, and there is, in fact, a dearth of hands in these districts at this moment. Our total production of cotton goods is probably 25 to 30 per cent less than it was in 1861, and it requires the full power of the available hands to produce this diminished quantity, so that it will be three to four
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years before we can, in the usual course, have as many employed as in that year, Meantime the enhanced value enables us to satisfy the wants of the world with this reduced quantity, and, at the same time, prevents falling off in the declared value of the trade; whilst the hands thus deficient have, for the most part, found profitable employment in other industries. The woollen trade has shared in the gains without fully participating in the losses of the trade in cotton and cotton goods, and, by a singular fortune, thrives alike by the wasteful expenditure of war and the more healthy demands of peace and the revival of the American trade. Our linen trade has experienced an extraordinary development during the continuance of the American war. The total exports, which in 1861 were about three and a half millions value, have in 1864 and 1865 more than doubled, being over seven and a half millions each year. And this increased trade has been most profitable to all concerned, and is now giving abundant employment to every available and willing worker. Our iron industries have attained to more gigantic proportions than ever before, and in some departments of them in which we have hitherto been behind the Continent, such as the manufacture of cast-steel, we are now nearly or quite on a par with any country, whilst the rapid development of the mineral fields of the Cleveland district, and the more recent discoveries of hematite ore in Cumberland, are rapidly creating great centres of industrious and prosperous populations in districts which before were poor and thinly peopled. In Scotland we have more furnaces in blast at the commencement of this year than at any corresponding period in the history of the trade, and even so the supply has not equalled the demand, and we have had to draw upon existing stocks; our total exports exceed by 10 per cent those of any previous year, whilst the prospects of demand for shipbuilding and railways at home and abroad is altogether unprecedented. But I believe there is in these very prosperities a voice of warning. The enormous increase in our consumption of coal in this and other great industries cannot continue in the same ratio without making alarming inroads on our resources for the future. The coal fields of this country, however vast, represent after all an ascertainable and an exhaustible supply, and the limits of that supply are being approached more rapidly

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than is generally realized; and, however the certainty of ultimate exhaustion and gradual enhancement of cost in the meantime may foreshadow changes in the future altogether beyond our control, it is undoubtedly a present and an urgent duty to practise a wise and thoughtful economy, instead of the somewhat improvident and spendthrift extravagance with which we have to some extent been chargeable in the past. In the Lothians of Scotland an almost entirely new industry has sprung into existence in the manufacture of mineral oil from the hitherto valueless shales which exist not only there but in the North of England and Wales—a source of unexpected wealth to the proprietors of the land, and of remunerative employment to large numbers of the people. The wages of labour are steadily advancing in all departments of industry, and with them the material conditions of our labouring people are likely to be improved, both as respects hours of labour, the character of their homes, and the education of their children—and it is probably in the experience of most of us how material a diminution there is in the number of those seeking the employment of domestic service, a sure indication of increased openings in other fields. And although the price of bread-stuffs has been too low to be remunerative to our farmers, they have found in the enhanced value of all other agricultural produce compensation for that cheap bread, which, although so important an element in the prosperity of the country, is indirectly a source of loss to them. They alone, however, of all our people have been suffering under the pressure of a severe calamity.
The lamentable plague among our cattle to which the Address refers constitutes a claim upon our sympathy and help no less valid than that which was acknowledged on behalf of the Lancashire operatives three years ago. And without referring at any length to a subject which has been already so much more ably handled than I could pretend to do by the noble Lord the Mover of the Address, I may be allowed to express a hope that in so far as schemes of local help or mutual insurance or other means may be found inadequate to meet these losses, recourse may be had, as in the case of Lancashire, to the voluntary sympathy and aid of the community. I am persuaded that the response will be no less cordial and effective, and that the necessity
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is in many cases no less urgent in the one case than it was in the other.
The present Law of Bankruptcy has not answered the expectations of its framers; and the present system is too formal, tedious, and expensive to satisfy the mercantile community. Except in cases of dishonesty, they would prefer something with less of legal exactness and more of practical business promptitude. And they care less for extracting the uttermost farthing of possible dividend, at great cost of time and expense, than for getting what is to be got quickly, and dismissing an unpleasant subject, which a bad debt always is. The system in Scotland is simpler, and works better, and an assimilation to it in the English law is probably desirable.
The Commercial Treaty with Austria, which the Address announces, is another step in that great policy of international commerce for which we are so deeply indebted to Mr. Cobden, and no less so to the wisdom and friendship of the Emperor of the French. It is valuable as giving us access to markets representing the wants of upwards of forty million of consumers, and securing to us in return the grain, the timber, the wool, and the wines of that vast empire. But it is no less so as a means of cultivating the confidence and kindly feeling of a nation from which circumstances have somewhat estranged us, although with its subjects we have much in common. A prosperous commerce may do great things for Hungary and Poland in the future, however inadequate mere material prosperities may be to compensate for the sufferings of the past. And the practical prosperities of such a commerce may greatly contribute to the solution of questions in which the ambition and pride of Austria and the nationality and patriotism of Italy are deeply involved. Nor can the example of Prance and Austria be without influence on the other nations of the world. Spain and Portugal, which have hitherto repaid our past services by tariffs conceived in a spirit of the severest exclusion or the narrowest protection, and the nations of the North and West that still cling to the prejudices of the past in commercial legislation, will one by one learn the lessons of a more enlightened policy, and step by step we shall thus fulfil His designs who has so constituted the common family, and so furnished by variety of climates and products the abundant storehouse of the earth as that our necessities and wants and appetites should

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be, instead of occasions to bite and devour one another, means of mutual helpfulness, and messengers of peace and goodwill to men.
I have already trespassed too long upon the patience of the House, and would only be permitted, in one concluding word, to respond to those appropriate expressions of the Address commending our country and ourselves to that Divine protection and blessing whereby alone our efforts can be made successful and our properties maintained. Earnestly desiring that it may accompany us still, and that under its control we may in our day and measure contribute to that progress of truth and right towards whose consummation all histories of individuals and nations are surely tending—contribute not blindly and by the impulse of an irresistible fate, but with a willing, an intelligent, and a hopeful consciousness—I beg most gratefully to acknowledge the patient attention and indulgence of the House, and to second the Address which has now been proposed.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That," &c. [See page 115.]
MR. BANKS STANHOPE: I owe an apology to the House for taking up a position which my standing does not perfectly warrant; but there is one point in Her Majesty's Speech upon which I desire to offer a few remarks, and that is the allusion to the cattle plague. But in the first place, I must venture to congratulate the right, hon. Gentleman in the Chair—and the House—upon the fact that he has again been placed in that position—a position the duties of which I cordially wish him health and strength to carry out. Missing one familiar face on the Benches opposite, I may also be permitted to add that, opposed as I have always been to the Government of the late noble Viscount, I not the less sincerely regret the loss of that distinguished statesman. Further, I desire to congratulate the Seconder of the Address on the exceedingly able speech which he has just delivered, in doing which I am sure I am but expressing the feelings entertained by all who sit around me. I only intend to trouble the House on the present occasion with a reference to that part of Her Majesty's Speech which speaks of the cattle plague. I need hardly remind the House that it first showed itself in this country in July last, and I fear there is no one who can inform us how or where it came from, or how it will end. In dealing with this subject I will
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divide it under two heads—first, the past policy of the Government, and what has occurred with regard to the disease up to this time; and, secondly, whether it is possible in any way to stop the disease. This disease commenced in July last, and before the end of the existing year, if it continue with its present virulence, I am afraid one-half of the cattle will be lost. At the commencement of the disease neither the Government nor the people were alarmed, and up to October I do not think the country would have encouraged or have permitted the adoption of stringent measures, had the Government proposed them. Still, I must point out the inexcusable blunders which the Government committed in the early stages of the disease. In August the first of the endless series of Orders came out, and inspectors were appointed, for whose payment no provision whatever was made; and no power of any sort Was given to magistrates to stop the passage from one part of the United Kingdom to another of any infected animal. About that time there happened to be a great cattle fair in Lincolnshire, and the bench of magistrates with which I was connected consulted their law adviser as to the best means of stopping infected beasts from coming in. He told them that neither according to law nor under the Orders of the Privy Council had they any security in doing what they contemplated. So they determined to act contrary to law, and gave directions to the police to stop all animals having the appearance of infection, and to take them to a place provided for the purpose. In that case, supposing the magistrates had chosen to obey the law rather than to disregard it, what would have been the consequences of allowing diseased animals to circulate freely? In September there was a great fair held at Barnet. Now I do not blame the Government for not having stopped it, for I do not think that at that early period the public was sufficiently aware of its importance to stop the fairs and markets from being held. Afterwards it became obvious to all that something should be done to prevent the spread of the disease, and then the Government issued an Order giving permissive powers for the stopping of markets and fairs. Now, I think permissive legislation is erroneous. If a thing is right encourage it, but if wrong forbid it, and not put magistrates, as in this case, completely in collision with their neighbours; because the bench of magistrates

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which does its duty is unpopular, and the bench who chooses to pander to the prejudice of its neighbours is popular. By-giving permissive powers to stop fairs and markets, the Government allowed that fairs and markets are a source of danger. Now, if they are not dangerous, you have no right to allow any person to stop them and disturb the state of the country; and if they are a source of danger they are so everywhere, and the Government should have taken upon itself the duty of stopping them. If I go to Northampton and ask persons there how they got the disease among them, the answer is, "Simply and solely because the Government, in spite of warnings, allow beasts to leave the Metropolitan Market and travel to the country." One county imports it from the next, and so the matter goes on. By allowing unlimited facilities of railway traffic the Government deprive themselves of the only excuse for authorizing these permissive Orders to stop fairs and markets, because if a cordon had been drawn round each individual county, then the magistrates and authorities within might have been allowed the option of permitting the circulation of cattle in that county; whereas, under the present system, the losses that have occurred in Lincolnshire are due to cattle imported from Yorkshire. Six beasts were brought into the county; six persons were found foolish enough to buy them, and thousands of pounds have been lost through those cattle. The Government after September got a little more alarmed, and in November a deputation from the Royal Agricultural Society waited upon the Home Secretary, and pointed out to him what measures were requisite to prevent the rapid spread of the disease. That deputation and their recommendations, I am sorry to say, did not meet with that respect it was entitled to, when it is remembered that the Royal Agricultural Society fully and clearly represent the opinions of the farmers of England. That body, to which the agriculturists gave their allegiance, made four requests—that a total stop should be put to railway traffic in live animals; that all foreign animals should be killed before entry; that infected hides should not be carried about England, and that town manure should not be suffered to spread infection broadcast. The Order which the Government brought out in the middle of December, enabling magistrates to prevent cattle going from one district to another,
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did some good in a limited way; but it did not work well, and ten days later another Order came out giving the power to the quarter sessions. Again, a little later, there was another Order, and finally, a few days ago, an Order explaining all these. This last Order shows convincingly the importance of the points urged in the petition of the Royal Agricultural Society. A great deal has been said throughout the country with respect to hides and town manure. If hides are not dangerous, the Government had no business to stop an important trade. If they be dangerous, the most stringent measures ought to be adopted as regards those articles. As to town manure, if you allow it to go to the south of England, the great probability is that, even should the disease be stamped out for the present, it will be spread over every part of England in the course of next summer. It is now known that for the cattle disease medicines are of little good. I was told, on the authority of a cowkeeper who had lost 120 head of cattle, that there was no remedy but isolation, no cure but the poleaxe. But how would you deal with isolation—at what season would you carry it into operation? In summer, when every animal would be in the field, and when, therefore, the cattle would be brought into immediate contact with one another? Or ought such a measure not rather to be carried out in winter, when the cattle are in their respective buildings? The mortality has gone on gradually increasing from 8,000 to 9,000 and 10,000 head of cattle weekly, until it has suddenly leaped by an increase of 1,400 to 11,400 a week. Indeed, looking at what has taken place, I am surprised the disease has not spread more than it has done. You have forbidden hides and town manure to be carried about in the month of January. I presume it was in the belief that their being carried about was dangerous in that month. But if it were dangerous in winter, why was it that it had not been thought dangerous in September and October? Who can tell to what extent the removal of hides and town manure may not have led to the increase of the disease? You have lost three months, and thereby have omitted to avail yourselves of a golden opportunity. Even should you now enforce the most stringent measures, it would be impossible in any way to bring things to such a state by the month of April as that restrictive Orders would no

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longer be necessary. You will then hare to deal with a double difficulty. On the 6th of April there is generally a great change of tenancy. If a man leaving a farm have a lot of stock he cannot leave them there. Again, he cannot sell them, because, according to rules in force in every county, stock could not be moved except for immediate slaughter. A man so situated would, therefore, be unable to find a purchaser. If these rules are adhered to you will inflict unmerited ruin on an industrious class of men. On the other hand, if those rules be abrogated, what danger may not arise to the entire country? There is another consideration in connection with counties in which, if animals are to be fed at all, they must be brought through intermediate plough-land to the lowlands on which there is food for them to eat, and which require cattle. If the rules of non-removal be in force, you will find those lands lying deserted, while in other places there will be thousands of cattle with nothing to eat. Again, if you permit cattle to be moved through intermediate land to the lowlands, there is no knowing how many thousand cattle may be affected by the few which, to all appearance, were in good health. I believe it is not possible to stamp this plague out, but I believe it is possible to check it. If stringent measures be not adopted the ratio of increase may rise still higher, and by the month of April we shall have a mortality of perhaps 20,000 head a week. Clearly the evil must be met by bold measures which have not been adopted before. I know it is easier to find fault than to act; but I do say that the Government ought to have acted on their own responsibility—they ought to have exercised their own authority. They ought to have issued compulsory instead of permissive Orders. They ought to have stopped every market and fair in the month of September; and they ought to have taken two other decided steps also. They ought to have stopped all railway traffic in live cattle, and they ought to have slaughtered every imported animal at the port of entry. I may be, perhaps, accused of advocating despotic measures; but I confess, that in 1866 I have not the same feeling with respect to the unmitigated evils of centralization and despotism I had in 1865. I believe that much of the happiness and national feeling of this country depend on our local self-government; but when I see confused
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mayors and confused magistrates trying every experiment, and in vain endeavouring to understand a succession of orders one more confused than another, I come to the conclusion that when you want to do anything well centralization is better than a policy which made "confusion worse confounded." I have some doubts as to how far our constitutional government is suited to a time when we wanted a sharp hand and a quick eye. At a time like the present, when there is a great existing evil, and when the possibility of a coming cattle famine is hanging over us, I believe there could be no greater evil for the inhabitants of a country than to live under the rule of a responsible Government which should shrink from all the consequences of direct and vigorous action. Though I am not in a position which can give any unusual weight to my words, the House will, I hope, allow me to state what in my opinion ought to be done, and what, indeed, must be done. In the first place, I maintain that it is indispensable to put an end to all traffic in live cattle. All animals coming from abroad ought to be killed at the ports they arrive at. It will be necessary to adopt a compulsory plan similar to that which has been tried at Aberdeen with considerable success, by killing every diseased animal and every healthy animal that has come into contact with a diseased one. In such cases a fair compensation must be given for the animals destroyed. By the Minute which has been issued on the subject, animals cannot be removed from one field to another, or sent to market. I might compare the conduct of Her Majesty's Government to that of a great philosopher—Sir Isaac Newton I believe it was—who made a large hole for the cat and a small one for the kitten. They have obstructed trade in every county by the regulations which they have laid down; while, at the same time, they allow the Great Northern, the Manchester and Sheffield, and other railways to carry from all parts cattle which might or might not be infected. The Order which has been made that no animal should be sent to any market if the plague has appeared within a month within a mile of the place cannot possibly be carried out. It will certainly be evaded. For my own part, I feel confident that the effect of the magistrates having made such stringent regulations has been to render live cattle very much more valuable in the market

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than dead meat. The consequence of this is that every man who manages his farm properly will carry its live cattle to London) Manchester, Bristol, and elsewhere rather than kill them. How can you call upon any county to stamp out the disease when railways are allowed to bring it within their boundaries? It is impossible to carry out your late orders against sending beasts to fairs or markets so long as you allow a system of traffic in such beasts by the railway. If those who object to the plan I am going to propose can suggest anything better I shall be glad to listen to them. Unless some measures of the kind I have to propose are adopted, there will be next year a fearful amount of disease. My plan is not permissive. It is very stringent and very strong, and will probably meet with considerable opposition. The English people never like anything compulsory, because everything that is compulsory in this country appears to be despotic. I will, however, suggest a plan which is short, clear, decisive, and not permissive. It is this, that the Government should at once introduce and pass as quickly as the forms of the House will permit—for there is no time to lose—a Bill compelling all the magistrates in every county at once to levy in, and for the use of their county only a rate to be called the "Rinderpest Fund." That rate, I propose, shall be of a twofold character. The first will be a rate on all property which is subject to the poor rate; while the second will be a rate on all live cattle now in England. Even without the second rate there might be considerable justice in levying one upon all descriptions of property; because, unless we are assisted by God, and assist ourselves, England will be visited by the most terrible calamities. The scarcity of meat, and the consequent increase in its price, will prevent the inhabitants of small houses in towns from eating meat at all. Now, the labouring population cannot work without having meat; and, therefore, if meat rise from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per pound, it must necessarily lead to an increased rate of wages. Therefore, it will be warrantable to levy a rate upon all kinds of property. But lest there should be the old feeling of "town against country," I propose an additional rate on every head of cattle alive, so that the owner of live cattle will pay a double rate, one on his cattle, one on his other property. If a plan such as that I have ventured to suggest be adopted,
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the next course will be to give orders that the magistrates of every county shall take such steps as they think fit on any day of any week to value all cattle not infected which are in their respective counties— the Rinderpest Fund to be managed by a committee of farmers, the magistrates sitting with them. Every person possessing cattle afflicted with the disease to have them slaughtered compulsorily, and any one having healthy animals in close proximity to others which are diseased to be advised or compelled to sell the healthy ones and receive the price they fetch, together with so much added as will amount to two-thirds of their value. In a small way this has been done within a mile of my estate. As an instance I would mention a person who had lost some cattle, and had one animal ill. On applying to an insurance company he received permission to slaughter those which still remain in a healthy state, and he accordingly did so. The beasts were valued at £15 each, but in the market they fetched only£6 10 s., so the committee made up the difference between the last-mentioned sum and two thirds of the value—namely, £10. A tenant in this way derives the additional advantage that he has no expense, he has no risk of infection either in his manure in the yard or in the grass field. The insurance company, in the case I allude to, owed the tenant for twenty animals at £3 10 s. each, or £70; by the other plan they would have to pay him £10 each, or £200; so that the society would save £130. Twenty animals were thus sent to market in a perfectly healthy condition, and were converted into food. This, however, was a small part of the advantage; there was the important relief that the twenty animals could occasion no more anxiety. On the other hand, when the animals could not be got rid of what had happened? They died one by one, until the farm became a head of corruption and a centre of contagion. The mental relief acquired by the consideration that animals on the surrounding farms were not liable to be poisoned was a real gain to the whole neighbourhood. If this plan has answered for one parish of North Lincolnshire, why might it not answer for the county? And if it answered for the county of Aberdeen, in a voluntary shape, why should it not for all the counties of England? It may be asked, why not copy the example of Aberdeen? For this reason: in most cases anything voluntary is simply

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spoliation, and the more a willing man gives, the more he saves the pocket of his stingy neighbour. We have a great calamity to meet, we have a hideous cloud overshadowing us, and the plague must be stopped at all risks. Knowing that there are in the House several Gentlemen who sit here for the first time, I cannot be wrong in indicating where the responsibility now rests. Before the meeting of Parliament this onerous responsibility devolved upon the Government who accepted it; but since the meeting of Parliament, every Member of the House is as individually answerable for the future as is the Government. If there be vacillation, it will be ours; if anything decisive be done, it will be owing to our energy. The country has justifiably given up all hope of much display of energy on the part of the Government; but it does expect that they who know the sufferings of their neighbours, who know the desolation that prevails through the length and breadth of the land, who know thoroughly what has happened, who know that the great evil was twofold, and embraced the killing, not only of those animals that had the rinderpest, but of store cattle and of calves, so that the future stock was endangered, should recognize the responsibility which has now fallen upon them. We are a new Parliament entering upon our duties, and we shall grossly neglect them and abuse the confidence placed in us if we do not devote all our energies to this important subject, and to this subject alone, first, making all other matter subsidiary. Let the question of the reform of the representation wait; let the consideration of what has been done in Jamaica wait; and let other interesting questions wait; but the cattle plague will not wait; it is a question of months, of weeks, of days, and of hours. The loss—11,000 head of cattle a week—is nearly 2,000 a day, and as the victims of the plague increase in number so will the difficulty of stopping it increase. The longer we delay our measures the longer those measures must remain in operation. If stringent measures are not taken now, they must be taken shortly. If we do not stop the railway traffic in live animals now, we must do so by-and-by. If we postpone that measure until April, we shall not stop the plague this year; and if we do not stamp out the disease before July, we shall not put a stop to it by 1869. If we are to go on as we have done hitherto, I fear that, unless this
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Parliament be more long-lived than it is generally expected to be, we shall leave the duty of stopping the plague to our successors. I have spoken warmly of the past because golden moments have been lost. In the light of the past the very idea of the future appals me. Therefore, in my humble position as a Member of Parliament, but representing a large agricultural constituency, I have thought it my duty to place my plan before Parliament, and to leave it to others to carry it out. Humble though I am, I would not willingly submit to the humiliation, at such a crisis, of being a consenting party to the continuation of a wilfully weak, vacillating, do-nothing policy.
MR. DENTsaid, he concurred in the belief that much valuable time had been lost, and that the disease had made such inroads that those brought into contact with it were perplexed to know how to stop it. He could not acquit the Government of blame for this delay. The disease appeared in the month of June, a Royal Commission was appointed, and reported to the Government on the 30th of October. It stated the reasons on which it recommended the total suspension of the conveyance of cattle; but neither the country nor the agriculturists were at that time prepared for so strong a step. But the Government might have boldly carried out the recommendation of the minority of the Commission, especially when they were urged in December by deputations representing the Royal Agricultural Society, the Farmers' Club, and the Smithfield Club; and, through them, the bulk of the agriculturists of the country. These important bodies wished, above all things, to secure general action throughout the country, so that the matter should not be left to local authorities of different opinions. The result of these deputations was the giving of additional powers to magistrates in petty sessions, but so conflicting were the powers thus exercised that farmers were fairly perplexed and at a loss to know how to conduct their business. As a consequence, in districts he could name, the numbers of cattle had been reduced from thousands to hundreds. In a district where there should be nearly 2,000 head of cattle there were not fifty, and in three villages where there usually were 600 head of cattle not more than fifty were left, not because the cattle had perished from the disease, but because the farmers knew

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not what to do, and sent all kinds of cattle to market, selling them at serious loss—some, in fact, not being fit for market at all. In January powers were given to courts of quarter sessions, on the supposition, which had not been realized, that they would cause greater uniformity of action. From what had fallen from the hon. Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. Banks Stanhope) it appeared that the practice wa3 different in North Lincolnshire to what it was in the West Riding, and it was different again in the North Riding and in the East Riding. What he complained of in the conduct of Government was the want of a due sense of responsibility in the non-issue of orders which should have been uniform in their operation throughout the country. The Government were bound at once to bring in a measure to authorize the slaughtering on the premises of all cattle attacked—in fact, the carrying out of the system adopted with success in Aberdeenshire. Voluntary effort failed in matters of this kind; what was done must be done compulsorily and with uniformity throughout the country. He doubted whether it was possible now, when farmers must purchase grazing cattle to stock pastures, to stop altogether the removal of cattle; but, wherever cattle were attacked, isolation and destruction must be resorted to. Of course, those whose cattle were destroyed must be compensated, and they might be compensated at a less cost than was ordinarily supposed, for the cost was found a trifling matter in Aberdeenshire compared with the value of the animals saved. It would not be an unfair thing if the burden were thrown upon the county rate. If it were thought that some descriptions of property should not bear it he could say that such a rate levied upon landowners and tenants would be cheerfully paid. Although farmers were considered by some to be a grumbling and complaining race, in his own locality they had evinced a ready cheerfulness to meet their losses, and to submit themselves to the law if they only knew what the law was. He never saw losses so bravely borne as these losses by the cattle plague had been borne. What the farmers complained of was that there was one order in one district and another in another, and that they were fairly puzzled to know what to do. In the West Riding, besides the quarter sessions, there were ten corporate towns; and the Leeds Mercury contained an advertisement relat-
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ing to Wakefield, to the effect that every facility would be given for the removal of cattle and sheep. The advertisement completely overturned all the orders that had been made for the West Riding. His object in speaking was to enforce the advice given to the Government to take up the question themselves, and bring in a Bill, if it were necessary, taking power to deal with the matter thoroughly throughout Great Britain and Ireland, and to establish a system of isolation and destruction. If they were to avert the disease before the early months of summer that was the only way it could be done.
LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, there were two important matters which had to be considered with regard to the cattle plague—our future course of action, and the feebleness and incompetency which the Home Office had shown in attempting to deal with the calamity. Certainly, the former subject had received a great deal of elucidation in the able discussion of it by the hon. Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. Banks Stanhope). But there was the other point which had not yet been touched on in the discussion of the subject and which he trusted the House and the country in general would bear in mind, and that was the action taken by the Government to meet the emergency and restrain the plague. It should be remembered that the attack of the disease had not been so sudden that the Home Office was destitute of all knowledge of its nature, and could not have foreseen the necessity of initiating measures of prevention. It should be recollected that it had for many years been generally known in this country that the cattle plague always extended itself from Russia in the direction of every line of communication established by trade. It was known that as soon as trade was opened with Russia the disease would invade the shores of England. Acting upon that knowledge, the Government of the day sent Professor Symonds abroad to study and investigate the nature of the cattle plague. The result of his investigations and Report was that the Government—on the 7th of April, 1857—when Parliament was not sitting, passed an Order in Council to prevent the introduction of the rinderpest to this country, thereby showing that the Government had full power to pass such Order in Council. Now, bearing that in mind, let the House consider what has been the action of the present Government? The cattle

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plague was introduced into this country on the 19th of June. The first cargo sent from Russia to this country was shipped at Revel; and it could be stated, on the authority of Professor Gamgee (who made a statement with respect to the matter at a meeting of the Social Science Association), that three of the cattle intended for shipment died on their way from the interior, and one took so ill that it had to be killed in the shipper's yard. For the value of this beast an action was brought. But the action was lost, from its being proved that the beast had the rinderpest. Another beast fell ill upon the passage to England. The vessel ultimately reached England, and the cattle were landed at Hull and were sent up to the Metropolitan Market. It would thus be seen that a whole cargo of cattle, amongst which the infection was known to have broken out, was not only landed at an important seaport, but actually conveyed without hindrance to London, at the great risk of spreading the plague. As early as 1857 there had been a very strong feeling that cattle imported from abroad, and especially from diseased localities, should be subject to quarantine. The Government of the day replied that the people of England were not yet aware of the danger, or, as the hon. Member who moved the Address had said, there was not panic enough in the country to warrant it. That was the Whig notion—that the Government could not do what was best for the country without being pushed and driven into it by an agitated people. No restriction was therefore, at the time, put upon the importation of animals, and the country was now suffering in consequence. If a quarantine had been ordered much evil would have been avoided, and the case he had referred to could not have occurred. On the 10th of July Professor Symonds attended a meeting of the Privy Council, whence he proceeded to the Home Office, to inform the Home Secretary of the great danger that threatened the country, and urged—nay, implored — him to lose no time in taking up and dealing with the question, for it was most urgent and the peril most imminent. Now, what did the Home Secretary do? He took a fortnight to consider; after that fortnight had elapsed he produced the Order in Council of the 24th of July. That Order was confined to the area of the metropolis; but on the 11th of August it was extended to the whole of England, and on the 18th of
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August to Scotland. If they contrasted such a delay on the part of our Government on a matter of so great importance with the prompt and decisive measures adopted in foreign countries, they would find a remarkable difference. All foreign Governments made it to be the interest of persons to declare to the proper authorities the presence of disease when it broke out among their stock—that is to say, full compensation was given for all animals which were killed, in order to prevent the spread of the disease. The English Government, on the other hand, made it the interest of every one to hide the existence of the disease; and not only this, but the Government induced those persons to sow it broadcast over the land. In fact, for a considerable time the Metropolitan Market had thus become a centre and focus whence the disease was radiated throughout the country. But what was the effect of the Order? Inspectors were appointed, who had the most despotic powers over the life and death of all cattle, and these very inspectors went about to slaughter and slash, and received a benefit for the beasts which they killed, while the farmers were not recouped for their loss. The consequence was that the farmers, instead of informing the inspectors whenever the disease first showed itself, sent their cattle away as soon as they could, and, having brought them where they obtained the full price, the metropolitan and other cattle markets became the foci of disease. The Home Office had not stopped there. It was well known that a labourer, or even a dog, might carry the infection. Well, what did the Government do? They sent the inspector to the farmyards where there was disease, and the inspector dabbled in the blood of the diseased animals, and brought the disease away with him to all the healthy farmsteads around which he had to inspect. So that this Order in Council, and the appointment of the inspectors, spread the evil instead of restraining it. The disease had been produced by importation, and the Home Office might (without taking a fortnight to consider) have issued an Order in Council to put some restrictions on importations; although not such a one, perhaps, as the hon. Member for North Lincolnshire suggested. The Home Office might have established a quarantine for ships carrying animals from countries where the disease existed. But they have not done so as yet. What was the next occurrence which showed just as

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much the apathy of the Government in this matter? The Irish Members went to the Home Office, and requested the Home Secretary to put some restriction upon the importation of animals into Ireland. This the Home Secretary refused to do, saying that he feared and could not venture on such a decisive step. The Irish Members then drew up a memorial, promising that they would take upon themselves the full responsibility attaching to such a measure, and the result had been that Ireland was free from the cattle plague to the present day. He begged to thank the Irish Members for a lesson in energy, and showing them how they should deal with a timid and apathetic Home Secretary. There next came the Petty Sessions' Order in Council. By this document the Government said to the magistrates and mayors of the whole country, "Do for yourselves whatever you think best; you must defend yourselves; the paternal Government will do nothing for you." Sir, if an enemy landed on the shores, would the petty sessions have to provide defence for our homesteads? Would the Government still do nothing? And what greater enemy could invade the country than this dire calamity? If a fire raged in London, is the householder permitted to deal with the flames? No! the recognized Government interfere. And what worse fire than this cattle fever? "Oh! but," says the Home Secretary, "the people are not yet conscious of the amount of the danger, they are not 'panic-stricken' as yet." But if you saw a man lying wounded and insensible, would you forbear to staunch the flow of blood because the poor wretch was unconscious of his position? Here, again, therefore, we see to what apathy, to what loss, the Whig doctrine leads—for what timidity and hesitation it is the excuse. Then, a metropolitan committee went to the Home Secretary and urged him to take some steps, after three months' ravages of the plague, to stop it. He said, in reply, "We are thinking of issuing a Commission to inquire into the nature and origin of this disease, and we shall do so presently." Well, a Commission was issued; but, when they reported, the Government were afraid to follow their advice, yet the disease was so tremendous an evil that the country would submit to any amount of vexation; nay, any restraint would be received as an absolute boon which succeeded in stopping the plague, and Parliament had al
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ready given all the necessary powers. But the Home Secretary was apathetic, timorous, and hesitating. On the 8th of December the Council of the Agricultural Society waited upon the Home Secretary; and what was his answer? It was, "Wait and see whether the disease will become more general." Wait! Why, the very thing that was complained of was this waiting, this hesitation, this dread of responsibility, this dilatory inaction and pusillanimous apathy. "More general!" Why, 4,000 beasts were then dying per week, and now it was nearly 12,000. Perhaps hon. Gentlemen could hardly picture to themselves what that really meant. When coming down to the House he was informed by a butcher of whom he had inquired, a man of great respectability and knowledge, that the carcass of an ox of moderate proportions weighed 100 stone of 8lbs. per stone; and that, after making an allowance of 20 stone for bone, hide, and offal, there would remain about 640lb. of good meat; and Mr. Lucas, who supplied the dinners for that House, told him that 640lb. would make dinners for 800 gentlemen. Well, multiply that by 12,000, and the sum total of our loss each week was no less than 9,600,000 dinners. [Laughter.] When they considered not only the farmers, but the operatives in all our towns, that were affected by this loss, it was no laughing matter. Let it be remembered that all this loss was not occasioned by the fault of the farmer, and not even secondarily by the judgment of Heaven, but by the apathy, and want of decision, and incompetence of the Home Office. Then came the Order in Council of December 16th. But that merely changed "Petty Sessions" into "Quarter Sessions." This was intended as an enlargement of the area; but it did not interfere with the railway traffic in cattle, with the landing of cattle, nor with the jurisdiction of boroughs within counties. Boroughs might have cattle sent into them, and might lodge them, and thus spread the disease; and a man might drive his cattle through a county, and there was no power to stop the cattle. All that could be done was to summon the man before the next petty sessions; but when the day for hearing the case came round, he might be sixty miles away. Hence there was nothing in this Order to prevent the spreading of the pest to every corner of the kingdom; and no restriction on importation. In fact, he knew of in-

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stances where infected cattle had been sent off to distant markets, and had brought the plague to those towns. He had been in Northumberland when it was free from disease, and he knew that cattle were sent into it from the south in an infected state. He had also been told by a large landowner of Northumberland that the shore was strewn with the carcases of beasts. Why was that? He said they were sending over beasts from Holland and other infected places, and when they arrived near our shores they threw the diseased Jonases overboard, and sold the remainder of the infected cargo at full price. In this way the disease was not only spread in the country, but was actually imported into it. Moreover, in local authorities there was no promptitude, where despatch was essential; there was no uniformity, where variation was destruction. Therefore, replacing "Petty Sessions" by "Quarter Sessions" was doing nothing but sewing new cloth upon an old garment which had been proved to be rotten. But there was another fault. This Order in Council was not to come into operation until the 3rd of January, and the acts of quarter sessions date from the 1st, and consequently the quarter sessions, unless they set themselves against the law, as they might very safely do in these days, could not even take advantage of the Order in Council, j or come under those powers which the Government pretended to have given. But, what was done in other countries? In France, the moment this rinderpest was heard of a report was presented to the Emperor, and a decree was issued on the 5th of September to prevent importation without a previous quarantine, and to give compensation for all animals which were killed. In a short time there was a diseased animal found near the Belgian frontier, but they destroyed all animals which had thus become infected, and thus stamped out the plague, and the whole disease was annihilated in that country with the loss of only forty-three beasts. The same was done in Belgium, where the distemper was stamped out with the loss of from 500 to 600 beasts. Similar precautions were always adopted in Galicia, where also they gave full compensation. We also were no strangers to the proper remedy for a calamity of this kind. The great plague in England occurred in 1745; it was met by Orders in Council, and it lasted twelve years; until we learned the necessity of isolation, slaughter, and compensation.
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It appeared three times afterwards — first in Suffolk, in 1769, next in Hampshire, in 1774, and again in Suffolk, in 1781, and each time it was instantly stamped out by the same means—namely, by offering compensation to the full value for every infected beast which was killed. So now also, if a cordon had at first been drawn round the infected districts the plague could not have spread. But what had been done by the Home Office? Why, in the first place everything was done too late, and in the next, it was done in such a manner that it was certain to be inoperative. The Home Secretary began first by slaughtering "the suspects." He slaughtered them without giving any remuneration. What more arbitrary proceeding could be perpetrated? And yet the Home Secretary was afraid of taking on himself the smallest responsibility, or doing anything to check the spread of the disease, lest "he might be accused of centralization." He then allowed the local authorities to make a sort of patch-work and variegated quilt of legislation, which proves heterogeneity was useless, and proves tardiness was destructive. The fact was that the Home Secretary was afraid of responsibility. He was not ignorant of the danger, but he could not bring himself to act; and yet he was supported by his own Commission, by the Agricultural Society, by the Smithfield Cattle Club, and by public opinion. He (Lord Robert Montagu) would venture to say that any amount of vexation which the Home Secretary might have chosen to impose, provided he had stamped out the plague, would have been received as an actual boon. The Government could have stopped the plague, and yet did that only which tended to spread it. It was only fair, therefore, that the farmers should not bear the loss, but that they should be recouped for that which they had sustained. It might be said that the Government had been taken by surprise. But how could that be the case when we had the annals of this country and the example of other countries before us to tell how to act? How could it be when we had the instances of Ireland and Aberdeen? The Home Secretary could not have been surprised, and he was not. He had, to use the words of Bolingbroke, the advantage of—
"This fortress framed by nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war."
That gave him a great advantage which

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other countries lacked. Therefore the Home Secretary cannot plead ignorance, nor surprise which proceeds from ignorance alone. It was the late Sir James Graham who first advised farmers to cease ploughing and apply themselves to feeding stock. Since that time Members at county meetings and agricultural dinners had constantly recommended the same course, and the consequence was that our system of agriculture depended now more than ever on stock feeding. That is to say, the capital of the farmer is shut up in grass land, and cow byres, and oilcake, and green crops. The public did not now feel the calamity which was impending. They did not feel the famine of cheese and butter and milk and beef which would ensue. For there was now no breeding of cattle, and no store cattle were purchased to supply the wants of other years. Nor did this condition of affairs apply to the agricultural interest alone. What would the operatives in the towns do? Would they eat beasts which had stood for ten days in their own dung in ships, and were then sold for exorbitant prices? Look at the famine which Would come on. The farmer would be pinched in means, and therefore when prices were high wages would be low; we should have empty stomachs and the discontent and disturbance which always attends upon hunger. Some Gentlemen seemed to imagine that the injuries done to farmers by the plague could be entirely repaired by temporary indulgence on the part of their landlords, or that it was a question of an impoverished farmer going out, and a richer one succeeding. If the entire stock of a farmer was swept away by the plague, and the landlord forgave him his rent for that year, it must be remembered that he would still have to meet his next year's rent. And how could he do so after suffering such a loss? He had barely enough left to feed his family; none to save and employ as capital. How, then, can he battle on against want? His grass lands, his green crops bring in no return. Even if the landlord allowed the farmer to plough the grass lands, serious an injury as that would be to the interests of the former, it could not be of any permanent assistance to the latter. For how can he buy the seed to sow it? Where will he find dung to manure it? The farmer had, after the loss of his stock, no capital to carry on the operations of his farm, and therefore the rotation of crops would be impossible, and the land would
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be injured. The large sums which he had expended in oilcake and cow byres would, after the loss of his cattle, be therefore entirely unproductive. Among the numerous remedies that had been proposed was that of a system of county assurance, by which sufferers by the cattle plague would be recouped their losses. He was astonished that any one having the slightest knowledge of what assurance really was could make such a proposal. By the system of mutual assurance the losses of a few are divided over the great number who lose nothing. The quotas of the many who escape pay for the losses of the few who are hit; but, he asked, what possible assistance could they derive from assurance in the present case, when the cattle of an entire county may be swept away by the plague? Insurance was a very proper means of preventing individuals from suffering excessive injury from isolated accidents, but it would be quite useless when, as in the present instance, a great calamity had fallen on the entire nation. It was acknowledged that this must be unsuccessful if confined to parishes, for one parish would be crushed even if another escaped. Hence it was proposed to enlarge the area to counties. But may not a whole county be ruined? Then extend the area of your benevolence to the whole nation. The right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had recently written a letter to The Times on the subject of the cattle plague. Now, he (Lord Robert Montagu) was not about to allude to that letter in any hostile manner or in a spirit of criticism; on the contrary, judging from that letter, he claimed the support of the right hon. Gentleman himself. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that, in case the cattle plague should extend itself on a large scale, it was the duty of landlords and neighbouring proprietors to assist those who suffered, and that all rateable property should bear the burden. He contended that in that passage the Chancellor of the Exchequer had admitted that there was a special claim on all persons to assist those who have suffered from the plague. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said further, in his letter, that there was "a special claim on the landlords." But landlords do not share the gains; they do not double the rents in good years; yet he holds that they should bear a portion of the losses. And if, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, all rateable property should be taxed to assist

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those who suffered from the cattle plague, the burden of such an excessive and widespread calamity is not to be met by any particular class. He quite agreed that the only fair way to meet the difficulty was to indemnify the sufferers by a tax levied on the whole nation. In another document which also appeared in The Times, it was argued that, "When a particular interest suffers it is not just that the whole nation should assist," for, it continued, "the whole country does not share the gain; therefore, it should not share the losses." Now, he would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, did the landlord, whom he seemed to think ought to recoup the losses which the farmers suffered from the plague—he asked him, did the landlords share in the gains of the tenant? He certainly did not; for if the tenant had a very good harvest the landlord received only the usual rent, and was in no way benefited by the increased profits of the farmer. By what reasoning, then, could he show that there was "a special claim" upon the landlord? In another portion of the letter they were asked, "Should a fisherman be indemnified for his losses at sea?" This was not a case of a fisherman losing his nets; it was not the case of an individual being injured. A great misfortune had fallen upon an important industry, and the country was bound to come forward to its assistance. This principle cannot be extended to individual cases; for these, in the first place, cannot all be investigated; and, secondly, it is impossible to separate individual shortcomings from unavoidable calamities. Moreover, individuals were essentially different from industries. For if an individual be ruined, the rest of his industry is pro tanto better off, and the nation is not injured. But if an industry be ever so little crippled, the whole nation suffers. Hence you cannot argue from the one to the other. There were now two questions before the House—the first being whether or not the nation was to pay for the cattle killed by the inspectors. He did not believe that any man would deny the national responsibility in this case. The cattle had been slaughtered for the benefit of the nation, and most certainly the nation was bound to pay for them. The second and more important question was—'Are the Government bound to recompense the farmers whose stocks have suffered from the ravages of the cattle disease? It was his firm
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opinion that in the interests of right, justice, and even of expediency the nation should assist those who had suffered by this heavy and unexpected calamity.
MR. CARNEGIEsaid, with a great portion of the speech of the hon. Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. Banks Stanhope) he fully concurred, particularly when he urged the immediate attention of the Government to this question. But he did not think that either the hon. Member or the noble Lord who had just sat down had done justice to the Government, inasmuch as they appeared to blame them for not having the gift of prophecy. ["No, no !"] It was, however, desirable that they should act upon one uniform system, because, without it, one district might be made to suffer from the conduct or negligence of the magistrates in another. It was owing, in a great measure, to the apathy of the magistrates in Stirlingshire, that the disease had been allowed to spread over the whole of Scotland. It appeared to him to be unfortunate that the measures introduced by the Government, some two years ago, for effecting certain alterations in the cattle plague of this country had fallen through from want of support in that House, and from the stringent opposition of certain bodies who now put themselves prominently forward in asking for the adoption of a measure which they had before opposed. One of those bodies was the Highland Society of Scotland, which had played fast and loose in relation to this matter. He hoped that the Government would act promptly and decisively on this subject. He thought that the proposition made by the hon. Member for North Lincolnshire for a double rate, in order to exempt those who had lost their stock, was objectionable, inasmuch as those who had already suffered by the loss of their cattle would have to pay as well as those who had not suffered any such loss. That would be manifestly unjust. If those who had had the misfortune of losing their stock were not to be compensated, they ought, at all events, to be exempted from future charges made with a view of stamping out the cattle plague.
SIR MATTHEW RIDLEYsaid, that in the opinion of the majority of those whom he represented, responsibility should have been assumed and action undertaken by the Government at a much earlier period. They were not accused of want of sufficient energy in the earliest period, but improved and uniform arrangements ought to have

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been enforced by them as soon as the Report of the Cattle Plague Commission was issued. So many different and almost conflicting Orders had been issued by the Privy Council that the justices in construing them had felt themselves exceedingly perplexed. He hoped the Government in future would follow such a line of action as would enable the bench of magistrates to act with confidence. Matters had now reached such a point that in one town with which he was acquainted milk had risen from 6d. to 8d. a quart, and the children of the poor were crying for it, and unable to get it. At any of the local farmers' meetings which he had attended there never had been any suggestion of excluding foreign cattle for the sake of protection to farmers. All that they thought of was the necessity of feeding the people; and even with the improved appliances of scientific husbandry in the present day it was impossible to produce in this country all the food required for the consumption of its inhabitants. He considered that the Government were to blame for having allowed the traffic in the railway trucks to be carried out so long. They were wrong in allowing the transit of hides and offal, and also wrong in not insisting upon the local authorities of certain ports preparing quarantine or probation sheds. The traffic by railways had been one of the most dangerous and difficult elements with which they had had to contend. They desired to see Government take upon itself the line of action which would enable the bench of magistrates to have confidence. The farmers did not regard this as a class question, but as a national one. They said that this was the case of the nation—the sustenance of the people. They did not think that the proper, required, and uniform machinery had been put in motion by the Government. One of the greatest difficulties with which magistrates had to contend was the fact that entirely different regulations prevailed in different counties. The counties of Durham and Northumberland adjoined each other. In the county in which he resided they had adopted the Order enabling sheep to be brought back from turnip pastures in the remoter districts. When these became exhausted a visa of the local magistrate in the district from which they came was required, and also a visa upon their entry into the county. But in Durham, separated from them only by the Tyne, no such Order was in existence, and conse-
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quently Lord Durham, one of the largest owners of sheep in that county, when his turnips were out was unable to bring back his sheep except by a very circuitous route. There was one point which he desired to impress very strongly upon the Government—the importance of speedy action. At present he knew of no regulations governing the dimensions of vessels, the number of cubic feet of air, the supply of water, and the supply of forage or provender in the case of animals imported into this country. He would especially call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade to this circumstance. Emigrant vessels, carrying passengers to distant countries or colonies, were closely inspected under the authority of the Board of Trade, and it was his firm conviction that results not less beneficial would follow from surveys of a similar nature imposed by the Government, and vigilantly carried out with regard to all vessels engaged, not only in conveying cattle between Ostend and the eastern coast of this country, but likewise trading between ports in Ireland and the west coast of England. There had been a case to his own knowledge where the plague was brought into this country by cattle coming from Ireland. The hold being full, and the vessel having encountered a stormy passage, the animals lay on the deck ill, and to keep them alive they were occasionally sluiced with cold water. The cattle were disembarked at Port Silloth, and shortly after their arrival two of their number were mixed with other cattle to all appearance healthy. These cattle were bought by one of his tenants, who lost them all. With proper arrangements relating to the transit there would certainly be much less probability of disease; for at present the cattle came over sick, hungry, excited, and faint, and, being driven while in that condition, were most susceptible of infection. If once landed healthy, they could either be quarantined, or, if it was thought more advisable, they could be slaughtered at once. The more rapidly and the more thoroughly the Government recognized and advanced towards the principle of dead-meat markets and dead-meat conveyance the better. Let the utmost possible supply be conveyed by railway trucks in the shape of dead meat. The railways would carry the dead meat at a very little higher rate than that at which cattle were conveyed, and there would be a greater probability of it be in conveyed

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in clean trucks. No such difficulty now existed in the matter as would have had to be encountered some years ago, when railways did not intersect the country. In every part of the country persons might now slaughter on their own premises, and convey the meat to the nearest railway station. As soon as legislation forced the matter on their attention, salesmen would be found to sell the dead meat at a fair rate. Even now this was practised to a limited extent. In vindication of the persons who had been appointed cattle inspectors, he must say that in Newcastle and many other places those officers had taken much pains to disinfect themselves. He had not risen with the object of animadverting strongly on the conduct of Her Majesty's Government, except as regarded what he conceived to be their dereliction of duty in not putting into motion the whole of the machinery at their disposal. Referring to the point of rating suggested by the hon. Member for North Lincolnshire, he believed that, as regarded his own county and other counties, a voluntary rating of the landlord, and a voluntary rating of the tenant, would find favour with them. For himself he would not object to the landlords and the tenants paying in the proportion of each one-half, though he would prefer, perhaps, that two-thirds should be borne by the landlord. Though he could see how there might be a composite rating to include other classes of property, he was disposed to think that at first a rating of landlord and tenant would be sufficient, without including all other classes of property.
MR. HODGKINSONsaid, that with the light of four months' experience it was very easy to point out how Her Majesty's Government might have done better; but it would be, perhaps, more useful to suggest how they should act in future. Several points had already been suggested for their consideration. There was another which he would take the liberty of mentioning, but which he was afraid would not be very palatable to Members of that House. He alluded to the carrying the infection by foxes. A number of cases had occurred in which it was very difficult to account for the way in which the infection had reached farms. The disease had appeared on farms eight or ten miles distant from the nearest centre of infection, and, as far as could be ascertained, no person had acted as the medium of communicating it. It was his belief that the only satisfactory way of accounting
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for the disease having reached such farms was by supposing that it had been carried by foxes. He knew that foxes were not in the habit of eating carrion unless it was very fresh; but those acquainted with their habits said they were fond of rolling about in it. As diseased cattle were sometimes buried at no great distance from the surface, and as the blood of those animals was sometimes left about the places where they were killed, it was highly probable that foxes, after rolling themselves in these places, ran here and there spreading the disease. He would be a bold man who in that House should counsel the destruction of foxes; but, at all events, a better system of interment and disinfection than now existed was very desirable, for the reason he had stated. He should also express his earnest hope that the Government would take the earliest means of establishing some system of compulsory assurance. He thought an assessment of cattle themselves would be the most satisfactory and just mode of assessment. The Bill necessary for such an assessment would probably meet with little or no opposition, and might be passed in a few days; but a proposition for assessing all property whatever would be sure to meet with much opposition, and a considerable time must elapse before it could become law. It might be advisable, perhaps, to have three rates of assessment—one for cattle under a year old, another for cattle above a year and under two years, and the third for cattle of two years old and upwards. He thought the rate should be paid by the tenants in the first instance, but that they should be entitled to deduct one-half of it from their landlords; for this was a question which affected landlords as much as it did tenants. As for assessing land, it must be remembered that some occupiers of land—market gardeners and others—had no cattle, and such persons no more ought to be called on to pay the assessment than a man should be who only occupied a house. Certainly some mode of insurance should be adopted, or they could scarcely expect persons to destroy their animals for the public good, unless they were to receive compensation for their loss. If the Government took immediate action in this important question, he believed they would earn the gratitude not only of the agricultural classes, but of the country at large. He wished to point out that the magistrates in petty sessions had issued conflicting orders, which caused great confusion; and

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he would also remark that the Order of the 3rd of January was not issued till after some of the quarter sessions had been held, and that it necessitated continual adjournments. The Government had neglected one remedy that might have been adopted—namely, the calling together of the Legislature, whose aid was greatly required in such an emergency.
SIR JOHN TROLLOPEsaid, he wished to point out the exceeding inconvenience to which local authorities were subjected through the Orders in Council. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary had called on those authorities to perform duties which would have been more properly discharged by himself. In the first instance, the Orders in Council delegated those duties to the petty sessions. In the two Parliamentary divisions of his (Sir John Trollope's) county there were from eighteen to twenty petty sessions. Each of those sessions issued a separate order, without conference with the others, and much complexity was consequently produced. By a subsequent Order in Council the Government had thought proper to transfer these duties from the petty sessions to the quarter sessions. Great difficulty was experienced in carrying out that Order, as the quarter sessions was a body delegated for criminal and financial purposes only. Besides that, the Order in Council was dated the 3rd of January, whereas the quarter sessions had assembled in his county, and in several other counties, on the first of the same month. The consequence was that unless the sessions had been adjourned from day to day, and from time to time, all power would have ceased until the ensuing quarter. His (Sir John Trollope's) residence was fixed in a peculiar locality. He lived on the confines of three counties, and there were two other counties and a municipal borough within six miles, so that no less than six separate jurisdictions existed within six miles of one another, all issuing separate orders and acting upon different principles. The result is that the occupiers of land were put to very great inconvenience in carrying on their business, many of them holding lands in two or more of these counties. He believed the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Grey) had given notice that he would, on an early day, bring forward some measure in reference to this subject. But he (Sir John Trollope) objected to be governed by Privy Council law. Indeed, he thought it con-
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trary to the Constitution altogether. The Government did not think fit to assemble Parliament for six months after the general election, and during that period no less than eight separate Orders in Council had been issued. If this state of things were continued, we should in time be living under a system similar to the Council of Ten at Venice, or the Star Chamber law of a past generation. It was a neglect, on the part of the Government, not to call the House together. Did the British Parliament ever refuse to act in a moment of emergency? He believed that if they had been summoned in the autumn the country would not have been subjected to the heavy losses which it had sustained, and which had not been averted by the Orders in Council. He could say that the justices in sessions had everywhere endeavoured, to the best of their ability, to act in accordance with the rules laid down by the right hon. Gentleman and the Government, but they had not been sustained by uniformity of purpose at head-quarters, and had not up to the present time had any one to confer with in case they required advice. A number of most influential gentlemen in his (Sir John Trollope's) county asked his hon. Colleague to procure them an interview with the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, in order that they might explain to him the difficulty in which they were placed, and describe the panic in their neighbourhood. The right hon. Gentleman fixed a day on which they were to meet him in London. They accordingly selected six gentlemen of information to explain their views, and these six gentlemen proceeded to town on the day appointed. Now, what happened? The right hon. Gentleman was not to be seen, and they were referred to the permanent Under Secretary, a learned gentleman who transacted the legal business of the Home Office. All he could tell them was that he would duly report their feelings and opinions to his chief; and when they informed him that the difficulty was that cattle not fit to be slaughtered were sacrificed because the Government would not reimburse the owners for their losses, all he could reply was that he had to pay very dear for his butcher's meat in London. That was all the deputation obtained by going to the Home Office. He must assert that the Government had not sympathized with the people in their misery and distress: and now, when it

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was too late—for around the spot where he lived there were villages which did not contain a hoof or a horn—the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the people that they must look to the landlords, their neighbours, and to rateable property. Now, he believed the landlords would meet their tenants and assist them; and he also believed that the tenants would submit to a rate levied upon a principle founded in equity and justice. But they wanted the action of the Government before they could do these things, and, therefore, they came to that House too late, so far as regarded his (Sir John Trollope's) locality. They asked the right hon. Gentleman to lay down some uniformity of principle, and not to delegate powers to quarter sessions or petty sessions, or any other local authority. We had a central authority to look to; we asked those in authority to do something in this matter. A man of religious feeling had said to him that the cattle plague was a chastisement passed upon us for our boast of our unbounded prosperity and wealth. But while not neglecting to implore Divine aid we ought also to look for human assistance, and surely it was to Her Majesty's Government that we ought to look for support. He must again object to the delegation of power to the country justices, who had done the best in their power to meet the emergency, and who had only been confounded by the number of contradictions and apparent inconsistencies in the Orders in Council. In conclusion, he wished to remark that those who were suffering from this great calamity not unnaturally looked for some support from the Government of the country.
MR. BARINGsaid, he was sure that there was no one connected with any of the measures respecting the cattle plague during the last six months, who did not cordially sympathize with that part of the speech just addressed to the House, where the right hon. Baronet (Sir John Trollope) expressed the feeling prevalent in the county which he represented on account of the great and severe losses suffered by the owners of cattle in that county. He (Mr. Baring) was sure there was no one in the House who sympathized more truly and sincerely than himself with those who had suffered, and he was sure that the feelings of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department were the same as his own in this matter. He (Mr. Baring) ought, perhaps, to explain the
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position of the Home Office in regard to the cattle plague, as that Department had been so particularly alluded to by the noble Lord the Member for Huntingdonshire (Lord Robert Montagu). The whole power possessed by the executive Government in respect of the cattle plague was conferred by the 11 & 12 Vict. c. 107—one clause of which Act enabled the Lords of Her Majesty's Privy Council to make certain orders and regulations. He thought it hardly necessary for him to say in that House, which had for so long a time seen the Secretary of State exercising the functions of his Department, that he was not the man to shrink from any responsibility. When he (Mr. Baring) heard the words "shrinking from responsibility" used in that House, he could not help asking what was the responsibility from which the Government was accused of shrinking. The responsibility of a Minister was responsibility to the House of Commons, and no one could say, after the speeches which had just been delivered, that that responsibility had been evaded. It would, he thought, be seen that very great responsibilities had been accepted in several points, and that experience had shown that the policy pursued was the right one. The noble lord (Lord Robert Montagu), had gone back to the year 1857, and asked why the particular course taken in that year with respect to the importation of foreign cattle had not again been adopted. Now, it was perfectly true that in 1857 the importation of cattle from the Baltic was forbidden by an Order in Council made under the Cattle Importation Act of 1848. The reason why the course referred to could not have been taken on the present occasion was, that it was exceedingly doubtful from what part the cattle plague, if imported into this country at all, was brought. The noble Lord assumed, as a matter of fact, that the disease was introduced by a particular cargo from Revel. The Report of the Royal Commission, to which every possible publicity had been given, did not warrant this conclusion; the Commissioners said that they were unable to express any opinion with regard to the introduction of the disease; and any one who had taken the trouble to go through the evidence could not but indorse what the Commissioners said. Since the publication of the Report, he understood that one of the principal witnesses who supported the theory that the disease had been imported

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from Revel had contradicted the evidence that he had given. There was no evidence which could be deemed conclusive that the disease was imported from abroad at all, and certainly none that it was imported from Revel. Moreover, before it broke out here there was no evidence whatever that it was raging in the neighbourhood of the Baltic or in any adjacent countries. In order to support the Revel theory it was necessary to suppose that the animals were brought from the south of Russia through St. Petersburgh to Revel, for there was no disease in Esthonia or any of the surrounding countries. No step, therefore, could have been taken by the Executive to prohibit the importation of infected cattle from any part of Europe by which this unfortunate outbreak of the cattle plague could have been prevented. Neither the attention of Parliament nor that of Government was called to any impending danger attending the importation of cattle from those countries from which our foreign supplies were drawn. The evidence given to the Commission went to show that foreign cattle had been remarkably healthy, only five animals in a state of disease having been detected in the Metropolitan Cattle Market, which animals came from Holland, a country into which it had been clearly established that the disease had been introduced from this country, so that the only foreign beasts which we knew to have come to England affected by the disease were imported from a country to which we ourselves had communicated it. With reference to other observations of the noble Lord with respect to the action taken by the Government, it might be well to remind the House that in 1864, owing to the danger that had been incurred in 1857 of the introduction of cattle plague into England, his right hon. Friend the Vice President of the Council on Education (Mr. Bruce) brought forward two Bills—one to amend the law with respect to the importation of diseased beasts, and the other to prevent the spreading of rinderpest and other infectious and contagious diseases. He had the honour to take charge of the two Bills, and to act as Chairman of the Select Committee to which they were referred. That Committee came unanimously to the conclusion that it was not necessary to alter the laws relating to the importation of foreign cattle, but that it was advisable in some degree to relax the precautions which were then taken by the Customs
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authorities.? That Committee consisted almost entirely of Gentlemen representing the agricultural interest, including Sir William Miles, whose absence from the House he regretted, the hon. Member for North Northamptonshire (Mr. Hunt), the noble Lord opposite the Member for Cocker-mouth (Lord Naas), and Mr. Caird, than whom there could not be greater authorities. The recommendation of the Committee was that when a cargo of animals arrived of which one or two were affected with certain diseases, only those animals which were affected should be slaughtered, and the rest should be allowed to go into the market, and be there killed for consumption. In consequence of that recommendation, instructions were issued to the Customs to relax their practice accordingly. Immediately on the breaking out of the cattle plague in this country orders were issued to the Customs at once to revert to the original Order of great stringency, under which they had previously acted, and, in every case in which there was but one diseased animal, or disease of any kind in the cargo imported from abroad, orders were given that the whole was to be detained, the diseased animals killed, and the remainder disposed of in such manner as the Commissioners of Customs might direct. This was the course that was taken with regard to the importation of foreign animals; and he believed that the inspection had been made with the greatest possible vigilance, and that the spread of the disease in this country could in no way be proved to have arisen from the importation of animals from abroad, if, indeed, it was originally imported from abroad, which was by no means proved at the present time. The other Bill introduced in 1864 contained provisions which placed very considerable liability upon the owners of diseased cattle; the owner was not to do certain things which would be likely to carry the disease among the cattle of his neighbours. That Bill was opposed with very considerable vigour by Gentlemen who represented the agricultural interest, and more especially by Gentlemen from the sister island; it was, indeed, mainly owing to the vigorous opposition of the noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth (Lord Naas) that the Bill was not passed. The Bill went through a Select Committee, and very considerable alterations were made in it. He (Mr. Baring) brought it down from the Committee as amended, but the general feeling

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in the House was so decidedly against it, and it was so evidently impossible to pass it, that he was obliged to withdraw it. When he said that the Bill received the opposition of the agricultural interest, he should add that some hon. Members supported the main provisions of the Bill, but the opinion of the witnesses who represented the agricultural interest was decidedly adverse. The Committee examined a gentleman deputed by the Farmers' Club, who happened to be their chairman for the year, and who said the farmers had their own remedy, and did not want the Bill at all. He therefore recommended his right hon. Friend not to reintroduce the Bill in the next Session of Parliament, and the subject was left, as it had been before, under a single clause of an Act, which was really an Act to prevent the spread of small-pox among sheep, under which Government had no power to deal with an exceptional state of circumstances. Putting the most liberal construction upon the powers given them by that clause, the Government made some most important general regulations, as to the liability of persons dealing with diseased animals; and he could not but think that in the discussion of that night, as well as in much that had been written on the subject, these general regulations had been lost sight of. They were that a person who had a diseased animal should give notice of it; that he must keep it apart from others; that he must not remove it; that when dead it must be buried in its skin and the place disinfected; and that animals likely to convey infection must not be removed without the licence of a competent authority. Power was also given to slaughter infected animals. To the extent to which these regulations were obeyed, the spread of the disorder was prevented. So far as these regulations went the action had been central, and had not been left to the local authorities; and all these liabilities which did not exist under any law were brought into force by the action of the Government through these general regulations. Other powers had been from time to time intrusted to local authorities by Orders in Council; and, speaking generally, the powers so conferred were the power of stopping public sales of animals in certain districts and the power to prevent the removal of animals from place to place. No doubt there was a very general opinion in certain parts of the country that it would
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have been better that the Government should have made general regulations on these two points, rather than have left the action to the local authorities; but he could not acquiesce in the statement that the feeling had arisen from the disinclination of local authorities to incur obloquy by exercising their powers. They had not shrunk from the responsibility of exercising those powers. He believed that it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have stopped markets in a general order, for there was the greatest difference of opinion as to what the order should have been. In some counties it had been considered advisable to stop markets for all animals; in others to stop markets for all cattle, allowing sheep to be sold freely; in other counties the course adopted, and that advocated by many of those who had paid most attention to the subject, was not to stop markets for all cattle, but only for lean and store cattle, so that fat cattle might be driven to market to be sold. The House had been forcibly reminded of this view by an hon. Gentleman who had pointed out that it was more likely the disease could be propagated by butchers going about the country to the beasts than by allowing fat beasts to go to them to be slaughtered. Another alternative suggested was that cattle having been brought to the market should not be allowed to leave its locality alive. Even if the most generally approved of all the alternatives put before the House had been adopted, and all markets excepting markets for fat cattle had been prohibited, and the fat beasts had not been allowed to leave the jurisdiction of the market alive, great inconvenience must have occurred. This could be proved by a single remarkable circumstance:—Liverpool was a great port of importation from Ireland, and if a general order had been given prohibiting any market except a market for fat cattle, and their slaughter within the jurisdiction of the place in which the market was situated, the effect would have been that not a beast which was sold in the Liverpool market could have been brought into that town, for the great market for Liverpool was outside the town, and in the county jurisdiction. Therefore, an order of the description referred to would have prevented any animal being brought from the Liverpool market into the town. An instance of such magnitude must satisfy the House that the Government were

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right not to have made a general order of this kind, the operation of which would have been so unequal. In regard to this question, it was impossible to consider Great Britain as one place. In every particular district there were different circumstances which must he considered; and if such an order as he had hinted at had been passed, the representatives of the county of Chester, in which the disease had been very virulent, might have come down to the House, and might have said, with a great deal more justice than it had been said in that debate, that the Government had shirked their responsibility, and that they had not dared to carry out the proper measures for preventing the spread of disease in the county of Chester, where no market whatever ought to be permitted. He asked any Member of the House who could do so to recommend to the Government any course which could be adopted with respect to the stoppage of markets, such as could be adopted with respect to the whole country. With respect to the removal of animals, the order which gave power to local authorities to make regulations had doubtless met with much disapproval, in consequence of the different regulations made by different local authorities, which must, in some cases, have caused considerable public inconvenience. He was not surprised, therefore, at hearing all this general outcry about conflicting orders; for people would naturally say, "Let us have a general order, and then we shall know what to do." He would, however, seriously ask the House, or some hon. Member of it, what this general order was to be with respect to the removal of cattle? A great part of Scotland and many parts of England were but slightly affected by the disorder. In Hampshire, Wiltshire, Dorsetshire, and Devonshire, there had been but few and isolated cases, and there were only two counties in Wales in which there had been any case at all; and he would ask any hon. Gentleman on the opposite side of the House to say what kind of general order the Government could have made. Could they have adopted the recommendation of the majority of the Royal Commission, and prohibited absolutely all movement of cattle? He wished to express the obligations they were all under for the great amount of attention the Royal Commissioners had given to this subject, and for the valuable Report they had presented. But he must say that that proposal would
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not have stopped the cattle plague and was quite impracticable; for no practical man would assert that the change from a trade in live cattle to one in dead meat could have been made all at once. But, besides, it would have broken down altogether with regard to foreign cattle. Every beast that came from abroad would have to be slaughtered at the place where it landed. [''Hear, hear!"] He quite understood that cheer. It meant that was a provision which it would be quite proper to make. He would not dispute that proposition; there was a great deal to be said in its favour, and it was one of those things which the House would have to consider when they came to the question what legislation should take place with regard to the importation of foreign stock. But he would venture to affirm that such a change as that could not take place at a moment's notice. To have passed an edict of such a kind would have forced foreign cattle to be brought to a place where they could not be slaughtered except under the greatest disadvantages and with the greatest loss. The importers suffering loss, importation would have diminished or ceased for the time. While half the supply of meat for the London market Was furnished by beasts from abroad, no Government would have dared to take a step which would have thus annihilated the foreign cattle trade. He quite agreed, therefore, with the remarks made by the minority of the Commissioners, who, it might be said, without offence to the others, were the most practically acquainted with the matter, that the absolute prohibition of all movement of cattle was impracticable. He could conceive no general order with respect to removals which would receive the approbation of the House, and he should like that any hon. Gentleman should propose such an order. There was hardly a county, or extensive district in the country, which was not placed in different circumstances from others. Take Cheshire, for example, where the outbreak had been as fatal as it had been 150 years ago, and compare it with the counties which are but slightly affected. In Hampshire, the prohibition of the removal of sheep would be attended with serious difficulty, while in other counties it would be a matter of small moment. There would then be the greatest possible difference of opinion with respect to the animals to which a general order should apply. Where any outbreak of the disease had occurred it would, per-

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haps, be right to prohibit altogether the removal of cattle in places adjacent; but differences of opinion would prevail in proportion to the nearness or distance of the different parts of the county from the source of contagion. All the arguments, which he had used with respect to markets applied with double force to removals. But it might be said, "So far we agree with you, and see that no uniform order could be issued, but that is not what we ask. We ask that the Government should do something, that they should issue an order which would do more than the present orders, and then let them allow the local authorities to enforce or relax such order, according to the different circumstances of the district." But he would say, in reply, that that was nothing more than local action under another form. ["No, no!"] In what respect did it differ? If they gave local authorities power to alter an order, it was the same as if they had local authority pure and simple. Suppose there was a general order that no animal should be removed from one place to another, and the local authorities could relax it, and allow animals to be removed, why that was nothing but local action. If a mild general order were issued, and local authorities were allowed to make it more stringent, then the whole obloquy of the transaction would be thrown on those authorities, and people would be able to say that the precautions which the Government considered to be sufficient for the whole country were, in the arbitrary opinion of certain gentlemen, representing certain interests, not deemed sufficient for the district over which they had control. For these reasons, he affirmed that it was impossible to imagine or devise any general regulations with respect, first, to the prohibition of markets, and, secondly, to the removal of cattle, which would be applicable to the whole country. He would not refer to many smaller points raised in the debate, but would notice two attacks made by the noble Lord the Member for Huntingdonshire (Lord Robert Montagu), upon the propriety of the Government's ordering the slaughter of infected animals, and of their forbidding the importation of cattle into Ireland. The best proof of the advisability of the first step was that since the power had been withdrawn the number of cases of disease had greatly increased, and it had been shown in Aberdeen and elsewhere that the power
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of slaughter vigorously exercised had been the only means in which, in the present state of knowledge, the spread of this grievous calamity could be checked. The principle of slaughter is now generally aproved. As to the precautionary measures taken to prevent the spread of the disease into Ireland, he believed that in taking the steps they did the Government had the full approval of the Members from that country. Hon. Gentlemen talked of Irish Members waiting on the Home Secretary with reference to this subject. He denied that statement on the authority of the right hon. Gentleman himself—no Irish Member had waited on him. [Viscount CRANBOURNE: Was there any such with the Lord President?] He would pass that by; he had no knowledge upon the subject. The hon. Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. Banks Stanhope) had made two distinct propositions: that all railway traffic should be suspended, and that every beast imported into the country should be slaughtered where it lands. He would now draw the attention of the House to the effects which would follow the carrying out of those propositions. The cattle trade between England and Ireland was principally carried on through Liverpool. Dealers from Liverpool purchased the cattle in Ireland, brought them to Liverpool, and they were then distributed among the great markets of the north of England. If the proposals of the hon. Member were carried into effect, it would entirely destroy the great cattle trade of Liverpool. Such regulations would result in seriously diminishing the supply of food for the people. Among other evil effects it would convert the London cattle trade, which was at present a trade in live cattle, into a trade in dead cattle; a change which might have the most serious results. At present, the dead-meat markets were very deficient in accommodation. But supposing that by some enchanter's wand suitable dead-meat markets for the metropolis were to arise, what would be the effect upon the public? According to the present system, beasts, though they might be brought to market, need not be slaughtered, unless there was a sufficient demand for meat. But in the case of dead meat consigned from the country to a London salesman, there would be no similar opportunity of holding over the article. It would be perishable, and must be disposed of whatever the sacrifice. AH that persons in the country would know on the sub-

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ject would be the, quotations from the last market prices, and if these were high, a glut of dead meat would be thrown on the market, only to be got rid of at very low prices. This would be followed by a deficient supply, and a rise in price most serious to the consumer. The fluctuation of prices entailed by these transactions would be an injury quite as serious in its way as many of the evils which were now complained of. He contended that neither the absolute prohibition of cattle traffic on railways, nor yet the slaughter of cattle at the place where they land, could be carried into effect at the present moment. Well, if they could not be carried into, effect now, they clearly could not have been carried into effect at any earlier period. What, therefore, became of all the blame which had been thrown on the Government by the hon. Member for North Lincolnshire and others? The hon. Member fop Scarborough (Mr. Dent) recommended the adoption of the system of slaughter as the only remedy within his experience likely to be efficacious, and held that the Government ought to give effect to the recommendations of the minority of the Royal Commissioners. But although among the Commissioners there were many and great differences of opinion, upon one point, they were all agreed, and that was in condemning the system of slaughter. One of the recommendations of the minority of the Commission was to the effect that a greater distinction should be drawn between infected and uninfected districts. The spirit of that recommendation had been carried out by giving to the local authorities power to apply the next effectual remedy to slaughter—that of isolation. Was not the power better placed in their hands than in the hands of a central authority? How was it possible for a central authority to act with the same knowledge and effect as persons upon the spot and well acquainted with the locality? No doubt, in the present state of the law, there was great difficulty in assembling a quarter sessions for such purposes as were here contemplated; and in any legislation upon the subject it deserved consideration whether power might not be given to summon a special sessions, and also; to delegate the authority of the quarter sessions to committees able to exercise this in their own particular districts, thereby combining the beneficial influences of one jurisdiction with the personal supervision of the other. In a matter of so
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great difficulty as this question of the cattle plague no one could be foolish enough to assert that every step taken at every moment by the Government was right, and, with the information which we now possessed, that no change could with advantage be made. But, looking broadly at the question, and taking the general attack made against the Government to be that they shrank from responsibility, and that they ought to have issued general regulations applicable to the whole country, he entirely denied the justice of it. So far from being open to that charge they had acted upon the clauses of a Bill conferring on them little real power and affording but very slight foundation for the powers which they assumed to place grave liabilities upon individuals, and heavy penalties attached to their non-observance. They took what, with our present knowledge, must be regarded as the proper step of enjoining the immediate slaughter of infected animals. In doing this they assumed grave responsibility, and took a step so much in advance of public opinion at the time that it was actually disapproved by the public, and by the Royal Commissioners. After such a step, could the House any longer allege that the Government shrank from responsibility? The Government did not feel themselves at liberty to make a General Order applicable to the whole country, because they were bound to consult the general advantage of all classes; to remember, moreover, that this question touched the supply of food; and they were even bound, among other considerations, to look to the interests of the owners of cattle themselves. By affecting to give stringent general orders, but allowing local authorities to modify them, or by affecting to pursue a very mild course themselves, leaving it to the local authorities to give to the rules a more stringent application, the Government might, indeed, have shielded themselves from responsibility. But they shrank from no responsibility, being satisfied that the course which they took was the right course, and that such orders ought to be left to local bodies aquainted with all the varying circumstances of the different parts of Great Britain. In certain portions of the country—in Ireland and parts of Scotland especially—the action of the Government had been successful. If it were contended that they had not been successful with regard to England, he replied that there were circumstances under which no

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Government action could be successful. Even with such centralized action as one hon. Member seemed to desire, it was difficult to discover what more could have been accomplished by the Government. If we were to act upon the principles which other countries had adopted, we must be prepared to carry out more stringent measures than anyone had yet suggested. "We must be prepared to adopt an honest" stamping out "process like that resorted to in particular districts of Prussia. A cordon must be drawn round the infected district, kept by troops, and not a man, not a dog, not even a bird must be allowed to leave the district alive for a certain time. That would be the only effective mode of stamping it out. If any Government could do that it might possibly be stamped out, except, indeed, it could be carried with the air, as the Royal Commissioners say it could be, in which case even that system would not do. But he believed that, if anything short of such a measure could have any success, it was the power to slaughter combined with isolation. He hoped when the Bill of the Government was brought in—to which he refrained from alluding now, because his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary would have to do so when introducing it on another day—hon. Members would see that the Government had every determination to adopt the most effective measures in their power for the future. The Government had failed from no want of assiduity—no want of sympathy with the sufferers—no indifference to the agricultural interest now so much afflicted. No class in the country could be indifferent on a question which had so close a relation to the roast beef of old England. They would do their best, and trust to the decrees of Providence and the mutual action of all classes in the country for success.
MR. LOWE: I wish, Sir, that my hon. Friend the Under Secretary for the Home Department had confined himself to a defence of the Government, and had not thought it necessary, in support of his case, to treat in the manner he has done the Report of the Cattle Plague Commission, because he has obliged me to make statements, and go into matters, which certainly I never would have dreamt of entering upon in this debate. The cattle plague made its appearance in the London market on the 19th of June. I do not know how it got there, and I do not think we have any evidence on the point; but there it
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was. The Government heard of it in the beginning of July, and made some Orders in Council. The first Order they made was a matter which occupied so much attention that Lord Palmerston and Lord Cranworth came up for the occasion, no other Member of the Government being here to look after it. In the beginning of October they appointed a Royal Commission, on which I had the honour to serve. But I do not think they possessed any knowledge of the real nature of the disease, at least any knowledge that could be relied on. Now, it is not difficult to show that they ought to have possessed that knowledge, and that the appointment of the Commission was therefore wholly unnecessary. The question, when we came to examine it, was found exceedingly simple. It was this—Was the disease then raging in England identical with the Steppe murrain or not? If it were once shown that they were identical, no further inquiry was needed, as no disease had been more thoroughly studied and was better known than the Steppe murrain. A Commission of Inquiry into the Steppe murrain would have been like a Commission of Inquiry into the small-pox or measles. The whole question, then, was whether the disease was identical with the Steppe murrain. Now, was it creditable to the Government that they did not take steps to ascertain whether the two diseases were identical before the disease had been for three months raging in this country? The Government had at their command all the medical ability which they might choose to employ, and they were particularly fortunate because they had in Mr. Simon, the Medical Officer of the Privy Council, a gentleman of the highest attainments, and who was the greatest authority with regard to the cattle plague, which he had made the subject of his particular study. The Cattle Plague Commissioners called him before them, by his evidence they were mainly guided, and that evidence has turned out to be an almost exact prognostication of everything that has happened since it was given in October last. The Government, then, were peculiarly well furnished with advice. Well, what did they do? Why, they did not summon that gentleman at all. He has never had any voice in their dealing with this matter, which they have withdrawn wholly from his cognizance, and placed in the hands of a veterinary surgeon, Mr. Simonds, an able man no doubt, but a gentleman who

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would not think for a moment of comparing himself with Mr. Simon. If they had consulted Mr. Simon as we did they would have got his evidence as we did, and that evidence would have left no doubt that the two diseases were identical. We thought, at first, that there was a great deal of evidence on each side, and that it was our business to hear evidence on both sides. But we could only get one witness, and he was a butcher, to say that the disease was not highly contagious. The absolute identity of the two diseases was established, and also the applicability to England of those precautions which a long and melancholy experience has demonstrated to be necessary in countries to the East of Europe. We set to work on the 10th of October, and our Report is dated the 31st. It must be admitted that we lost no time, especially if it be considered that we started in a state of total ignorance, and heard the jobbers and persons who dealt in cattle, and whose evidence, as we were going to interrupt their trade, we were bound to hear, though we might not attach great weight to what was said by them under such circumstances. In the first few days we got a pretty clear view of the real nature of the disease and the only remedy to be applied. Now if we could do that, why could not the Government do it; or, if they did not choose to do it, might they not have refrained from making reflections on us who did their work? My hon. Friend (Mr. Baring) states that the Report shows that there was a difference of opinion among the Commissioners, and, after exaggerating it, tries to shelter the Government behind it. That, however, will be of little avail. The state of opinion in the Commission was this:—The majority and the minority both agreed that the real remedy for preventing the progress of the disease was the stoppage altogether of the removal of cattle from one locality to another. There was no difference of opinion on that point, and I am speaking in the presence of a noble Lord (Viscount Cranbourne) who was a distinguished member of the minority. The second point in which we were all entirely agreed was, that whatever was to be done—whether the larger measure, of which the majority approved, or the less stringent one, advocated by the minority, should be adopted—the action of the central Government was necessary, and nothing ought to be left to the local authorities. What we
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really differed about appears at this distance of time to be a very small matter. It could perhaps best be described as a matter of temporary expediency. The majority thought it expedient to recommend what we all agreed was the real remedy, though some of us may have felt not much confidence in its being carried out. The minority thought that it was better to modify the proposition so as to make it more acceptable to the public, not because they liked the modified proposition better than the other, but because they deemed it more calculated to meet the public mind. The House, therefore, will now be able to judge how far my hon. Friend is justified in sheltering himself behind the minority. The course adopted by the Government is entirely condemned both by the majority and by the minority of the Commission, and there was no one on the Commission who supported it except Mr. Maclean, the engineer, who thought it unnecessary to do anything at all. Well, what did the Government do? We reported on the 31st of October, and after a waste of three weeks of infinitely precious time they give jurisdiction to petty sessions, and shortly afterwards they extend that jurisdiction to quarter sessions, and so in substance the matter rests now. I did not come here tonight to criticize or to condemn the conduct of the Government, but I have been urged to say what I think on the subject. I am not going to re-open the controversy before the Commission. It would be most indecorous for me, and for the noble Lord (Viscount Cranbourne) to take advantage of the position we occupy here to fight those battles over again. I say, then, that the Commission was right in their recommendation that a central authority ought to act in the matter, not because I have fallen in love with despotism, but because there is nothing despotic in delegating power to the only persons competent to act. The rule is simple. Matters of public interest, in which the whole community is directly interested, ought to be left to the central authority, whereas matters in which the general public is not directly concerned ought to be left to the local authorities. Now, what was this cattle plague? Had it been epizootic merely, spreading in certain districts, and influenced by climate and local circumstances not likely to go beyond those districts, I can quite understand that it would be perfectly right to leave it to be dealt with by the local authorities. But

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is this disease of such a nature? It is exactly the contrary. Every part of England is interested in the suppression of the disease in every other part of England. One day it is at the Land's End, and the next at John o'Groat's. I believe I may say that the London market is one day infected, Edinburgh and Plymouth the next. Had Edinburgh and Plymouth, then, no interest in the conduct of the local authorities in London at that time? And, if so, how can we reconcile it to ourselves that these things should be left to the discretion of local authorities? My hon. Friend (Mr. Baring) spoke of the trade of Liverpool; has he read what The Times said this morning about the cattle at Kirkdale market, where hundreds of cattle had been refused admission because though branded, they had no pass? Did my hon. Friend read about the state of the neighbourhood of Bristol, where there was one set of rules for the county of Somerset, another set for Bristol, and a third for Gloucester? Does my hon. Friend think that is the way to check a calamity which has, at any rate, this recommendation—that its action is uniform? Could my hon. Friend expect that a great and general calamity like this would be cured by piecemeal and parti-coloured legislation? If the rule was to be loose here and tight there, such contrariety and uncertainty must necessarily lead to discontent. It is clear to me that you have no right to impose those restrictions on one part of the country unless you can make up your minds to impose them upon all. Each man will cheerfully submit to great inconvenience for the sake of others only when he finds persons submitting to great inconvenience for his sake. I therefore think there never was a case more clearly made out than that if Government interference was required there should be a central authority. My hon. Friend says he does not approve of our preventing traffic, as the disease might be carried by birds. Well, perhaps even a fly might carry it; but we must deal with this question as practical men, and not as mere theorists. De minimis turn curat lex. Practically it is conveyed by the cattle, and if the principal cause be suppressed, there is no reason to doubt that the spread of the disease would be checked and prevented. My hon. Friend has talked much about responsibility, but he has not considered that on the Government devolved
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the responsibility of dealing with this calamity in the first instance, a responsibility which it cannot shake off. But how do the Government meet it? By avoiding it. When the calamity becomes worse they seek out persons to deal with the subject, and when those persons make up their minds for them they, by partially adopting the plan those persons suggest for themselves with responsibility for the inadequate local means they choose to employ, I misunderstand the functions of Government if it is to stand by quietly amid such a calamity, and, when the calamity increases, to delegate its functions to others. Look at the case of Berkshire. Two lines of railway traverse it from north to south and from east to west. The calamity showed itself in the eastern part of the county. By timely measures the disease has been kept away, there are no deaths among the cattle, and I am informed that the county, except in Windsor where a different local authority rules, is free from cattle disease at this moment. The whole stress of my hon. Friend's argument was that what was recommended by the Commission was full of mischief to trade and a hardship to everybody. No one can doubt that such a thing is difficult to arrange; but what I complain of my hon. Friend is that I could not gather from what he said that he ever pictured to himself what the real state of the calamity was. I appeal to the House with the utmost confidence whether if our recommendations had been adopted, even after four precious months had been lost, it might not probably have stopped this disorder. But I must say that we have by no means the same confidence now. It is one thing to stop a disease in its nascent state; it is another thing to stop it when it has acquired 14,000 centres of infection, when it has spread to every county in England, and when the air has become loaded with volumes of polluted matter. It is quite right we should struggle against it now with our whole force, and try every measure we can think of, but the prospect is now dark and unpromising. I hope the House will do the Commission the justice to believe that what they recommended might at first have been effectual. We cannot say that it will avail now. Our advice was difficult to carry out, and the Government would not take the responsibility. That, Sir, I will say was a responsibility indeed.
MR. HENLEY: Sir, after the admirable speech of the right hon. Gentleman it will be only necessary for me to say a few words. There is no doubt the difficulties of the subject are very great. I am not going to conceal that for one moment. Neither am I going to be led away into the discussion as to whether this disease came from Revel, or whether it was generated in Hampstead in the cow-sheds of the President of the Council. No doubt in the month of July, if not in June, the fact was reported to the Government that the disease was in London. That, I believe, cannot be controverted. The only question is, whether it was certainly known to be the true rinderpest. I agree that the Government might have known this if they did not. Well, what was the course they took? Of all the statements I ever heard to show the utter weakness and shrinking from responsibility of Government, that made by the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary (Mr. Baring) is the most extraordinary. For what did he say? He stated that there were innumerable difficulties in dealing with the question of stopping the importation of foreign cattle, and innumerable difficulties in following the recommendation of the Commission. What was his difficulty in following the recommendation of the Commission? Why, that it was not a perfect remedy; and as this disease might be carried by the air, therefore they would not be justified in adopting it. Now that reasoning, if it comes to anything, comes to this—that it is idle to take any remedy at all if it be not entirely perfect. The hon. Gentleman said, "What! will you have a perfect cordon of soldiers as in Prussia, for if you don't do that you do nothing." Still, he talks of the responsibility of the Government. He further said, "The best thing we could do was to order the cattle to be killed." But how long did the Government maintain that order? What sort of resolution must they have on the subject. Why did they not stand to their guns? If they were right in their opinion, why did they not stick to it like men, and see whether it did any good or no? I am quite prepared to admit that all these things were tentative. There is one other point I wish to state, and it is this:—A great deal has been said by the Under Secretary about the impossibility of making general orders; but he did not touch upon the subject at all whether the Government
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had power under the Acts of Parliament to delegate to other persons the authority which Parliament had given to them. I am not learned in the law, but I very much doubt if those orders had gone to the Queen's Bench whether that point would not have been raised. If their construction of the law be the true one the Poor Law or any other Board might authorize the thousand and one authorities in the country to act in their place. But what was the argument of the Under Secretary? That they could not make general orders. But why not make particular orders. Surely if they could give power to a thousand local authorities to make these orders, inconvenient as they were, and to a very great degree without benefit, they might have applied themselves to make them, as they had a knowledge of the whole subject to which the local authorities could not pretend. Surely they might have made those particular orders which, with their knowledge of the subject, might have been so framed as to avoid the inconveniences and confer greater benefits than could possibly arise from such orders as a thousand different authorities were at liberty to frame. As to the difficulty of making those orders in that part of the country where I live, I believe in every case where power was given by the Government, the local authorities did everything they could under the circumstances. But what benefit was it to us when here, from Copenhagen Fields, a well known centre of infection, every week was vomited forth cattle to every county. It was through that means, and no other, that Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire were infected. Not that diseased cattle were sent down because butchers would not buy them, if they knew it, but they bought cattle in Copenhagen Fields, and brought them down to kill them, and thus spread the infection like a stone dropped into a pond. If the Government had taken a waterpot with a large rose in their hands and watered the country for the purpose of spreading the infection they could not have done it more effectually. What was the power they gave to the local authorities? First and foremost, we had inspectors who did not know much about the disease, never having seen it. They did neither harm nor good. Next came stopping fairs; but what was the use? The only effect was this:—Butchers went up to London, and the danger was incurred of bringing the infection from

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Copenhagen Fields. The next measure was to give us authority to stop beasts coming into our districts. Such a measure was something the same as if the Government had taken a bottle of quicksilver and thrown it down, and said, "Stop it from going into your district." While Copenhagen Fields were sending hundreds of thousands of cattle over the country there was no chance but that the disease would spread as it had spread. Were it not that the Under Secretary had put the thing in such an extraordinary manner, I should not have said a single word; but he challenged opinion in such a way that I could not help making these observations. I think the Government, if they had not sufficient nerve to enable them to do what was necessary in these matters, should have called Parliament together. There never was a time in which everybody through the length and breadth of the land was more disposed to give their support to the Government without question. But really the Government did nothing. I do not hesitate to say that virtually they did nothing. They had the means of getting general information, and in giving their particular orders they could ascertain how they should act, and yet all that they did was to hand over to local authorities that power which Parliament had intrusted to them. What was the necessary course for the Government? They were obliged to publish in the Gazette their Orders in Council. There was some time lost in that way, and the local authorities had to meet and to publish their regulations in the local papers before they had the force of law, and so more time was lost. I believe that down to the present time property amounting to £1,500,000 or nearer £2,000,000 has gone, absolutely gone, without any benefit to anybody. On the former occasion the disease lasted twelve years; and if it is to go on so long now, it is very difficult for me, not having passed an examination before the Civil Service Commissioners, to count up what will be the cost to the whole country. I have heard the Under Secretary stating that possible annoyances and possible stoppages to trade might take place if such and such a thing had been done; but he said not one single word of the unfortunate people who had been put to so much trouble all over the country by the local justices making orders, sometimes contradictory and sometimes against persons not connected with their neigh-
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bourhood. The Government seem to feel very much with respect to inconveniences to trade, but they do not seem to care one farthing about inconvenience to the general trade of the country. I cannot understand why the Government could not stop all cattle from going out of London which has a large market and excellent means of slaughtering beasts. I believe if Copenhagen Fields and one or two such places had been isolated in such a way for the first two months the disease would have been stopped. The fact is, if we had had no Government at all we should have been as well off. The hon. Secretary of State has pointed out the difficulties which would attend the course proposed to be pursued; but I would ask the Government, this House, and the country, what is the use of a Government if they do not meet these difficulties—if they are not prepared to take the lead instead of leaving to the local authorities the task of grappling with so fearful a malady? The real use of a Government is, that the greater the difficulty is the greater is the power shown by the Government in dealing with it. That cannot be said in the present instance. There may be more reasons why it is so than meet the eye. The death of the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston), whom we all deplore, no doubt paralyzed the Government to a certain extent; but, whenever the history of this time comes to be written, it must be stated that what the Government did in this crisis was nothing, and that they handed over to a thousand authorities in the country the work and the business which they ought to have carried out themselves.
VISCOUNT CRANBOURNE: I would not have risen if I had seen any indication of an intention on the part of any occupant of the Treasury Bench to rise and address the House. It appears to me that not only was the Government prepared to inflict the greatest injury to the agricultural interest that they have suffered for the last century, but to treat with something like contempt their complaints. I do not intend to trouble the House at any length, for I feel that these matters as to the cattle disease, which are of so much importance to the occupiers of land, had better be dealt with by those who represent counties in this House. I wish to advert, however, to the conduct of the Government during this disease. If I understand the Under Secretary, there is still lurking in the mind

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of the Government an idea that this rinderpest is not strictly a contagious disease, but that it originated in England. It is the unanimous opinion of alt the scientific men who have examined the question in England, and of those who have had the opportunity of accumulating evidence upon the Continent, that the rinderpest is indigenous to the Steppes of Russia; that when it wanders beyond those limits it is carried by contagion, and that the contagion is more rapid and sudden than in any other case with which the science of medicine is acquainted. It was reported to the. Government on the 10th of July, by their own veterinary officer, that this -terrible scourge was in the country, and they were not in a state of profound ignorance as to the nature of the plague. The thing had been well studied by persons whose information was transferred to Government. Professor Simonds had made a prolonged journey, had collected evidence on the subject, and made every inquiry in the county where this disease originated. He laid his information before the Government, and so much was the attention of the Government drawn to the disease that when the report was spread in 1864 that the Austrian army had brought it into Schleswig-Holstein, and that there was danger of its coming by importation from that country, they caused a special inquiry into the truth of that report. It is perfectly clear, then, that when the attention of the Government was called to this disease they possessed the best information on the subject. It was not an unknown disease. The period of its existence on the Continent it is impossible to say; but it had been studied and had been the subject of most careful and scientific research, and Her Majesty's Government had all the accumulated experience of some of the best men of science England could furnish, to instruct them as to the symptoms, the rapid spread, and the certain results of the disease. It is impossible, then, to accord to Her Majesty's Government the plea of ignorance to excuse their conduct with regard to this disease. On the 10th of July they were informed of its existence; but, as the House has been informed, they took no action until the 24th, and then it was only to give orders that every person having cattle afflicted with the disease should give notice to the inspector. It was not until the 11th of August that they gave any powers to the local authorities. On the 23rd of Novem-
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ber they gave full powers to the petty sessions; but it was not until January that they gave full powers to the quarter sessions, and up to the present time no sufficient action has been taken by the central authorities. One thing stands out very prominently with regard to this subject—namely, that Her Majesty's Government have not been able to exercise the slightest influence in checking or controlling this disease. It has increased in something like a geometrical ratio, and according to the last Returns 100,000 heads of cattle have fallen victims to the ravages of the disease. Now, the question we have to ask ourselves is, whether any measures the Government could have taken would have had the effect of stopping this fearful calamity under which the country labours; and it seems to me that the only mode of solving that question to our satisfaction is to ask ourselves whether, in any other country simultaneously with our own, any measures have been taken which have had the effect of checking the disease. Now, I have to bring before the House a different picture with respect to results in the case of Belgium from our own. And I select Belgium for a particular reason. We have heard a great deal from Her Majesty's Government about the free institutions of this great country, and I think they have had to bear a great deal more than they need. When Members of the Government do not do what is expected of them we are told that it is one of the drawbacks of the Constitution, and that we in London can supply illustrations in reference to it. Whenever it is urged that the Government ought to have been more rapid and prompt in action we are told that it is only the quality of despotism to be prompt in action, and that if we wish to escape from despotism we must submit to such little inconveniences as having our cattle by the 100,000 die of the disease. That may not be the case in Prussia, Austria, or France, where the action of the Government is quite prompt, and where they have no notion of dallying with a public grievance. But setting aside the despotism of Austria, Prussia, and France, I ask the attention of Parliament to the conduct of a Government as free as our own—where the Parliamentary system exists in its full vigour, and where, to use an expression familiar and agreeable to hon. Gentlemen opposite, a strong Liberal Government is in office. Now, this strong Liberal Government does not sit still in

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the face of so great a calamity. I have in my hand a report presented in November last by the Minister of the Interior of Belgium to the House of Representatives. In it he states that the disease was introduced in Belgium from Holland, and since it has been discovered that it was introduced on the 16th August. It does not, however, appear to have come officially to the knowledge of the Government until the 28th August. Before that they had heard rumours of its existence, and they had issued orders to prevent the importation of cattle from England. On the 29th August, as soon as they heard of the existence of the disease, without losing a day they stopped the importations, and on the 3rd September all importations from any country. On the 22nd September they stopped all fairs and markets throughout the country, so far as they were connected with the sale of store stock. Fat cattle were still allowed to be sold, on condition that they carried a certificate that they came from a district not infected by disease. At the same time, which was most important, they offered ample compensation to all who declared the existence of the disease (under severe restrictions certainly, to prevent abuse), and ordered the slaughter of the cattle. They gave more than the absolute value of the cattle, an idea almost enough to terrify the right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) into a fit. Now, what was the result of these prompt proceedings? Between 600 and 700 heads of cattle were the whole of their losses, and the expense incurred somewhere between £4,000 and £5,000. And with the exception of one or two cases in the neighbourhood of Antwerp on the Dutch frontier, where they were exposed to the contagion, the disease was swept out of the country, although it had appeared in all parts of it. Belgium is at present entirely free from the cattle plague. The plague has, in fact, been completely stamped out in a very short space of time, and at a very trifling expense. Such was the result of the prompt and decisive action of a Liberal Government in a constitutional country. Now, Sir, I say that the responsibility which the Government has assumed in this case by the extreme timidity of its action has been very serious indeed. The question of compensation is one of the most serious questions that can present itself to the House of Commons. As a general rule it is far from a sound
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principle—it is the reverse of it—that any individual business should be reimbursed out of the proceeds of the general taxation of the country. The rule is that if the acts of the Government cause individual loss it shall be reimbursed out of the public Treasury. If, therefore, the Government undertakes the functions of Parliament, without calling Parliament together, and without taking proper measures to avert the evil, it then becomes a serious question whether or not they have incurred pecuniary liability to those who suffer by its neglect. I do not know in what way the House will deal with that question. It is a very serious one, and I can understand the discontent and heartburnings which exist in different parts of the country in consequence of it. The responsibility of this calamity rests on those who declined to cheek it. If the Government had in July last, in August, even if when the Commission reported, they had acted with one-half the vigour, decision, and discretion exhibited by the Liberal Government of Belgium, the farmers of the country would never have suffered as they now are suffering. The entire means of existence of numbers have been destroyed because there have been placed in high official position men unable to meet the responsibilities entailed by the offices which they hold.
MR. WILLIAM LESLIEsaid, that in the county which he represented, and to which several times allusion had been made (Aberdeenshire), they had, on the breaking out of the disease, slaughtered all cattle attacked by the plague. They made a rate which was divided equally between proprietors and tenants, and they were thus enabled to treat with every individual case that was presented to them, and to make such arrangements with the owners of stock that they were enabled to stamp out the disease. This plan had proved entirely successful, and they had succeeded in effectually checking the further progress of the disease in their county. He was not inclined to coincide with those who appeared disposed to blame Her Majesty's Government. He considered that the course which Her Majesty's Ministers had taken was the one befitting the free institutions of their country. The Orders in Council enabled the petty sessions throughout the country to take the proper steps to crush out the cattle plague in their respective districts. Those steps had been taken in Aberdeen, as he could

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testify, with the most perfect success, and if they had not been taken in other parts of the country, it certainly was not the fault of the Government. The Government was asked why they did not call Parliament together last autumn. He believed that had the Government done so, such was then the temper of the public mind on the subject, Parliament would not have passed any Resolution calculated to place serious restrictions on the cattle trade. He asked what would have been gained by calling together Parliament to pass some half-hearted measure that would have proved utterly ineffectual to check the spread of the cattle disease. As a Member of the Select Committee on the Bill which had been referred to, he must say he thought that Her Majesty's Government were justified in thinking that the late Parliament were of opinion that there should be no interference with the trade of the country. The Bill was withdrawn under circumstances which had been referred to; and, as a perfectly independent Member, he bore testimony to the fact of Her Majesty's Government having done all that was necessary under the circumstances. At the same time, as the representative of a large agricultural constituency, he begged to impress upon Her Majesty's Government the necessity of immediate action in this matter. He repeated that immediate action was highly desirable, and he trusted that Her Majesty's Government would lose no time in introducing a concise but stringent measure.
SIR GEORGE GREY: It is impossible, Sir, to overrate the gravity and importance of the subject that we have for some hours been debating. The ravages caused by the distemper which has now been prevailing for some time in this country fell, in the first instance, on the agricultural interest, or rather on portions of the agricultural interest, in particular districts of the country, with great severity; but there can be no doubt whatever that every class of the community has a deep interest in the preservation of that great article of food which enters so largely into general consumption. I am not, therefore, surprised to find that the debate on the Address has been almost exclusively confined to this subject. Looking to the multiplicity of topics embodied in the Speech from the Throne, I thought it not improbable that some others might be alluded to, upon which the House might expect me to say something. I therefore reserved myself for that pur-
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pose, but as I understood from the noble Lord the Member for Stamford that he considered the debate was closing without my having addressed the House, I am quite ready, under these circumstances, to make a few observations. I think no Member of Her Majesty's Government can complain of the tone or spirit in which the hon. Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. Banks Stanhope) brought this subject before the House, and the House and the Government are alike indebted to him for the frank declaration of his own opinion, as well as for the suggestions which have been offered with regard to any Bill to be submitted to the House. I will not myself enter into that subject or express any opinions upon the suggestions which have been thrown out, because the proper time for discussing them will be when I ask leave to bring in a Bill on the subject, a proposal which I shall make on an early day. But to deal with a few of the objections which have been raised in the course of this debate. Several Gentlemen have implied that the Government were open to censure because they did not at once issue Orders in Council absolutely prohibiting the importation into this country of cattle from any other country. I must say that at no period since it was first ascertained that the disease existed in this country would the Government have been justified in taking such a course, though under an Act of Parliament they had clearly power, if they thought proper, to prohibit the importation of foreign cattle. The matter formed the subject of anxious deliberation, and I do not wish at all to evade the responsibility attaching personally to myself. But I may observe, that in the Act of Parliament no power is given to the Secretary of State for the Home Department; it is vested in the Lords of the Privy Council. In all their deliberations on the subject I took part, and I can bear witness not only for myself but for my Colleagues that we were anxious to do all in our power to check this disease. Two considerations weighed upon our minds, and I do not think this House will visit us with its censure for taking both into account. The first was the desire to do all that was practical and reasonable to arrest the disease; and the other was the desire to interfere as little as possible, without an absolute necessity, with the supply of food to the great body of the people. And the difficulty we had to contend with throughout was the necessity of preventing any regulations

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which might be issued from clashing with either of these important objects. It has been said that we received intimation of the existence of this disease in June, and that for a fortnight we did nothing. What are the facts? Information was not received of any one case till the 10th July. Immediately on the receipt of the information the Privy Council caused inquiries to be made in the dairy sheds in London to which the disease at first was supposed to be confined, with a view to ascertain its nature and extent. They also consulted the Law Officers of the Crown as to the powers which the Crown possessed of dealing with the matter in case the disease should turn out to be, as it did, the Steppe murrain. The interval, therefore, so far from being lost, was spent in making inquiries and in acquiring knowledge, without which it would have been impossible to have acted afterwards. The principal charge against the Government is that they did not take on themselves at once the duty of legislating for the whole country by issuing and enforcing stringent regulations under the power vested by the Act of Parliament in the Privy Council for that purpose. The House, however, will remember that the country was wholly unprepared for such a stringent procedure. Even when the Commission—the appointment of which was censured by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe) as wholly unnecessary—made its valuable Report, if the Government had felt disposed to give effect to its recommendations, it would have been impossible to do so without exciting such an amount of opposition throughout the country as must have neutralized altogether the efforts of the Government. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire has stated that but one opinion existed as to the recommendations of the Commission—namely, that they were impossible recommendations. My right hon. Friend the Member for Calne (Mr. Lowe) implied that my hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State (Mr. Baring) attacked the Commission. My hon. Friend found no fault with the Commission; but when we are told that we should have adopted the recommendations of the majority of that Commission, he endeavoured to show that the reason why we did not adopt the remedy which the Commissioners suggested was because it was not a practical remedy, and even in the opinion of the Commissioners themselves was not a sure remedy against
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the disease. The Government are accused of not having laid down stringent rules for the whole country, by availing themselves of the knowledge and experience of particular districts, and acting upon that. But first as to the supposed delegation of authority by the Privy Council to local authorities, that is an entire misapprehension. The Privy Council made the Orders, but declared that they should only come into operation when the local authorities in a particular district, to whom its circumstances were, of course, familiar, decided that such Order should be applied to the locality. The authority, therefore, which was put in force remained the authority of the Privy Council, invoked and applied by the local authorities, who must be judges more competent than an authority at a distance could possibly be. Then it has been said that uniform Orders, applicable to the whole of the kingdom, ought to have been made. The Under Secretary has distinctly shown that that would have been absolutely impracticable. If we had made an Order that no cattle should be moved at all in Great Britain, what would have been the feeling of the agriculturists, and of all persons concerned in the cattle trade? What we did, therefore, was to require of the local authorities the expression of their opinion as to the amount of restriction necessary for their different districts, and leave them to give effect to that opinion by bringing the Order of the Privy Council into operation. How is it possible for the Privy Council to have that accurate knowledge of the different circumstances of every part of the country which would be requisite to enable them in the first place to frame such an Order, and then to insure its being carried into effect? Why, even local authorities from time to time have been obliged to recall or modify their own decisions to prevent them from pressing too harshly or vexatiously on the agriculturists in their own districts. The hon. Baronet the Member for Northumberland gave a striking instance of the difficulty of making any legislation universally applicable; for in some cases, though the magistrates had applied the terms of the Order to sheep as well as to cattle, they found it necessary to sanction the removal of sheep from one place to another, otherwise the ordinary operations of farming there would come to a standstill. The Government, if they made a law actually prohibiting the removal of stock from one place to another, would not merely be preventing by antici-

183
pation the making of arrangements applicable to such special cases as the hon. Member had referred to; but in districts and counties where the disease had not made its appearance at all, as in the North West of Scotland and some counties in England, would be imposing intolerable restrictions on the people. Allusion has been made to the deputation which came to the Privy Council from the Royal Agricultural Society in December. A prominent member of that deputation was Mr. Thompson, the late Member for Whitby, who was then persuaded of the necessity of some general Order prohibiting the removal of cattle by railway. But since the quarter sessions have had the power of exercising a discretion on the matter, he has written me a letter, in which he distinctly? tates his opinion, founded on the large experience that he has gained, that it would be utterly impossible to carry into effect in the West Riding the Orders which have been made in the North Riding. In the West Riding he thinks it would be impracticable, for instance, to stop the markets. He has pointed out the serious evils which could not fail to arise from butchers slaughtering cattle at farm houses. The working people, who were well fed and well paid, would not, he wrote, submit to the absolute suppression of the fairs and markets, but would have beef. If the Government had made such an order it would, no doubt, lead to great dissatisfaction in many parts of the country; it would have been said that the Government were adopting more stringent rules than were necessary, and actually contributing to the spread of the disease. The fact appears to be that what answers very well in one county or in one riding may not answer in another, but, on the contrary, may conduce to the spread of the disease. I can assure the House that the Government considered the whole subject with the greatest care and attention, and came to the conclusion that it was only by enacting such rules and regulations as the Privy Council had power to make, and, in doing so, having regard to the various circumstances of the country, to the various conditions which are found to exist in different parts of it, not only in regard of the plague itself, but also as respects the manner in which the farmers carry on their operations and by calling on the local authorities, the leading gentry, and agricultural body to carry them out, we could hope to do anything effectual towards stopping the spread
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of the disease. We availed ourselves of the experience of the past, and looked to what had been done when the disease broke out in the last century. During the former visitation of the plague very much the same steps had been gone through as on the present occasion. Local authorities were invited to co-operate with the central Government. We came to the conclusion that the most effectual measure to adopt would be to have every beast affected with the disease killed at once, and we gave power to the inspectors to order it. But the Royal Commissioners objected to the continuance of the power, and public opinion was very strongly expressed against it, and we therefore limited the power to cases in which the order for isolation was disobeyed. We could not shut our eyes to the experience of the past. In the last century the Government at length made a General Order applicable to the whole country as some hon. Gentlemen have recommended to-night, but such a feeling was manifested, and such an opposition to it raised, that they were obliged to revoke that Order before the day on which it was to have come into operation. I believe there would have been a similar opposition if the Government had ordered such a measure at the present time. The step recommended by the Royal Commission—that of putting an absolute stop to the removal of beasts throughout the country—would, no doubt, have been the most effectual one; but the only question was—that which weighed on the minority of the Commission—whether it was practicable, and it was the consideration of this question which forced us to the conclusion at which we arrived. It has been urged that all the cattle brought to a market should be slaughtered within the place where that market is held—that no cattle should be allowed to leave the market alive; but my hon. Friend has pointed out what has been the effect on the Liverpool market of what has been done in Lancashire, the Liverpool market being outside the boundary of the borough. Any general order of that kind would have had to be modified, unless we were prepared to stop the supply of animal food to the people. As to the Metropolitan Market, for a long time it has been free from the disease, and I do not believe one case can be shown during the last two months in which the disease was propagated by a beast coming from the market. Very

185
great anxiety, however, has been expressed lest it might be spread by cattle brought from the London market; but, as much of the animal food consumed in Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Manchester, and other places is obtained from beasts coming from the Continent through London, before we made an order prohibiting the removal of any animals from the Metropolitan Market we felt it necessary to communicate with the places interested in this question in the country. We have made an order that no cattle brought into the Metropolitan Market should be allowed to leave the district of the Metropolitan Board of Works. The effect of the regulations of the magistrates with reference to the removal of beasts in different parts of the country has been that the supply of the London market has fallen off to a great extent, and the number of beasts brought here now is much smaller than it was a few weeks ago. Something has been said, in the course of this debate, with regard to Ireland. I will explain what the Government did in respect to that country. In Ireland great apprehension was felt that the disease might be imported; for though it is not a cattle-importing country, cattle do arrive chiefly from the west of Scotland to be fattened in Ireland and afterwards exported. Accordingly, the agriculturists of Ireland were very naturally desirous that every precaution should be taken against the introduction of the disease and they memorialized the Lord Lieutenant, asking for an order prohibiting the importation of cattle into Ireland. I must say that my noble Friend brought the whole of his influence to bear on the Government in favour of such an order. We found that this question had been raised several years ago by persons interested in sheep farms in this country, who were desirous of preventing the importation of sheep from Ireland, where a sheep disease existed at the time. The question was at that time referred to the Law Officers, and it was held that the power of making such an order did not apply to removals from one portion of the United Kingdom to the other, but only to removals from one specified place to another. However, the Law Officers in Ireland were consulted, and they gave an opinion that the power of making such an Order as was asked for was vested in the Government. In this opinion the Law Officers of England concurred, and the Government made the Order. I had not the
186
pleasure of seeing any Irish gentlemen on the subject; but there was much communication between the Home Office and the Irish Government relating to it. As soon as the Report of the Royal Commission was in our hands, we transmitted a copy of it to the Lord Lieutenant, directing his attention to the portion of it relating to Ireland, and asking him to obtain the opinions of persons in that country on the recommendations. The Lord Lieutenant thought that as there had been no Irishman on the Cattle Plague Commission its recommendations could not be adopted as to Ireland without such a course. A committee was thereupon formed in Ireland; they made their report; and their recommendations, so far as they came within the scope of the Act, have been adopted. Should the disease unfortunately break out in Ireland, the authorities there have the power to order the slaughter of beasts in order to prevent the spread of the plague. With regard to compensation from public funds, I ask the attention of hon. Gentlemen to what occurred in the last century. Compensation was then given, but only to the amount of 40s., but as we are informed by the Commission, it produced, in the frauds to which it led, very bad results, and in rendering persons careless as to taking proper measures to prevent their cattle from being attacked with the disease. But it is in the power of every county to do what has been done in Aberdeenshire. By means of a voluntary assessment there compensation has been paid for animals slaughtered wherever the disease has appeared, including those in contact with diseased animals, and I believe the fund is not exhausted. This system has been attended with the greatest success. I read the other day a circumstance which reflected credit upon the county of Northumberland. On the appearance of the disease near Hexham the residents in the neighbourhood immediately raised a subscription, and buying the two herds in which the disease had appeared caused the whole of them to be slaughtered. If the same local energy had been displayed in other districts we should have heard fewer complaints about the rapid diffusion of the disease. Upon one other point I may say a few words, although it is not a material one. The legality of the Order in Council which came into operation on the 3rd of January was doubted, because it was supposed that every Act of the sessions dated from the first day of their meeting,

187
which in many cases was the 1st January. The point was raised by the Oxfordshire quarter sessions, and in accordance with their request we took the opinion of the Law Officers, who held that this legal fiction applied only to cases of judicial and not to matters of administrative business. I can only repeat that the Government have been anxious in all they have done to consult the interests of all classes alike. I believe it would be a great advantage if a dead meat supply could be substituted for a live meat supply throughout the country, but such a change cannot possibly be effected without much preparation. I trust we shall obtain the concurrence of the House and of the country in the measure which the Government will introduce on the subject of this night's discussion.
THE O'DONOGHUE THE O'DONOGHUE moved the adjournment of the debate.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Although it is rather earlier than the House is accustomed to adjourn a debate of this character, yet, as the attention of the House has been exclusively occupied by a question of great importance, and I believe the hon. Member intends to introduce to the notice of the House another subject demanding much consideration, I do not believe that we could in fairness ask him to proceed to-night. It will not be convenient for the House to proceed with the debate to-morrow, and it will, therefore, be adjourned until Thursday.
House adjourned at twenty minutes to Twelve o'clock.

Preamble
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
The Session was opened by THE QUEEN in Person.

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.
HER MAJESTY, being seated on the Throne, adorned with Her Crown and Regal Adornments, and attended by Her Officers of State:—The PRINCE OF WALES (in his Robes) sitting in his chair on Her Majesty's right hand—(the Lords being in their Robes)—commanded the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, through the Deputy Lord Great Chamberlain, to let the Commons know "It is Her Majesty's Pleasure they attend Her immediately in this House."
Who being come, with, their Speaker;
The LORD CHANCELLOR, taking direction from HER MAJESTY, said;—
My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"IT is with great Satisfaction that I have recourse to your Assistance and Advice.
"I HAVE recently declared My Consent to a Marriage between My Daughter Princess Selena and Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holdein Sonderbourg-Augustenburg. I trust this Union may be prosperous and happy.
"THE Death of My Beloved Uncle The King of the Belgians has affected Me with profound Grief. I feel great Confidence, however, that the Wisdom which He evinced during His Reign will animate His Successor, and preserve for Belgium her Independence and Prosperity.
"MY Relations with Foreign Powers are friendly and satisfactory, and I see no Cause to fear any Disturbance of the general Peace.
"THE Meeting of the Fleets of France and England in the Ports of the respective Countries has tended to
22
cement the Amity of the Two Nations, and to prove to the World their friendly Concert in the Promotion of Peace.
"I HAVE observed with Satisfaction that the United States, after terminating successfully the severe Struggle in which they were so long engaged, are wisely repairing the Ravages of Civil War. The Abolition of Slavery is an Event calling forth the cordial Sympathies and Congratulations of this Country, which has always been foremost in showing its Abhorrence of an Institution repugnant to every Feeling of Justice and Humanity.
"I HAVE at the same Time the Satisfaction to inform you that the Exertions and Perseverance of My Naval Squadron have reduced the Slave Trade on the West Coast of Africa within very narrow Limits.
"A CORRESPONDENCE has taken place between My Government and that of the United States with respect to Injuries inflicted on American Commerce by Cruisers under the Confederate Flag. Copies of this Correspondence will be laid before you.
"THE Renewal of Diplomatic Relations with Brazil has given Me much Satisfaction; and I acknowledge with Pleasure that the good Offices of My Ally The King of Portugal have contributed essentially to this happy Result.
"I HAVE to regret the Interruption of Peace between Spain and Chili. The good Offices of My Government, in conjunction with those of the Government of The Emperor of the French, have been accepted by Spain, and it is My earnest Hope that the Causes of Disagreement may be re-

23
moved in a Manner honourable and satisfactory to both Countries.
"THE Negotiations which have been long pending in Japan, and which have been conducted with great Ability by My Minister in that Country, in conjunction with the Representatives of My Allies in Japan, have been brought to a Conclusion which merits My entire Approbation. The existing Treaties have been ratified by the Mikado; it has been stipulated that the Tariff shall be revised in a Manner favourable to Commerce, and that the Indemnity due under the Terms of the Convention of October 1864: shall be punctually discharged.
"I HAVE concluded a Treaty of Commerce with The Emperor of Austria, which I trust will open to that Empire the Blessings of extended Commerce, and be productive of important Benefits to both Countries.
"THE deplorable Events which have occurred in the Island of Jamaica have induced Me to provide at once for an impartial Inquiry, and for the due Maintenance of Authority during that Inquiry, by appointing a distinguished Military Officer as Governor and Commander of the Forces. I have given him the Assistance of Two able and learned Commissioners, who will aid him in examining into the Origin, Nature, and Circumstances of the recent Outbreak, and the Measures adopted in the course of its Suppression. The Legislature of Jamaica has proposed that the present Political Constitution of the Island should be replaced by a new Form of Government. A Bill upon this subject will be submitted for your Consideration.
"PAPERS on these Occurrences will be laid before you.
"PAPERS on the present state of New Zealand will be laid before you.
"I HAVE given Directions for the Return to this Country of the greater Portion of My Regular Forces employed in that Colony.
"I WATCH with Interest the Proceedings which are still in progress in British North America with a view to a closer Union among the Provinces, and I continue to attach great importance to that Object.
"I HAVE observed with great Concern the extensive Prevalence, during the last few Months, of a virulent Distemper among Cattle in Great Britain, and it is with deep Regret, and with sincere Sympathy for the Sufferers, that I have learnt the severe Losses which it has caused in many Counties and Districts. It is satisfactory to know that Ireland and a considerable Part of Scotland are as yet free from this Calamity, and I trust that by the Precautions suggested by Experience, and by the Divine Blessing on the Means which ate now being employed, its further Extension may be arrested.
"THE Orders which have been made by the Lords of My Privy Council by virtue of the Powers vested in them by Law, with a view to prevent the spreading of this Disease, will be laid before you; and your Attention will be called to the Expediency of an Amendment of the Law relating to a Subject so deeply affecting the Interests of My People.
Gentlemen of the Souse of Commons,
"I HAVE directed that the Estimates of the ensuing Year shall be laid

25
before you. They have been prepared with a due Regard to Economy, and are at the same Time consistent with the Maintenance of Efficiency in the Public Service.
"THE Condition of Trade is satisfactory.
My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"A CONSPIRACY, adverse alike to Authority, Property, and Religion, and disapproved and condemned alike by all who are interested in their Maintenance, without Distinction of Creed or Class, has unhappily appeared in Ireland. The Constitutional Power of the ordinary Tribunals has been exerted for its Repression, and the Authority of the Law has been firmly and impartially vindicated.
"A BILL will be submitted to you, founded on the Report of the Royal Commission, on the Subject of Capital Punishment, which I have directed to be laid before you.
"BILLS will be laid before you for amending and consolidating the Laws relating to Bankruptcy, and for other Improvements in the Law.
"MEASURES will also be submitted to you for extending the System of Public Audit to Branches of Receipt and Expenditure which it has not hitherto reached, and for amending the Provisions of the Law with respect to certain Classes of Legal Pensions.
"YOUR Attention will be called to the Subject of the Oaths taken by Members of Parliament, with a view to avoid unnecessary Declarations, and to remove invidious Distinctions between Members of different Religious Communities in Matters of Legislation.
"I HAVE directed that Information should be procured in reference to the Rights of Voting in the Election of Members to serve in Parliament for Counties, Cities, and Boroughs.
"WHEN that Information is complete, the Attention of Parliament will be called to the Result thus obtained, with a view to such Improvements in the Laws which regulate the Rights of Voting in the Election of Members of the House of Commons as may tend to strengthen our free Institutions, and conduce to the Public Welfare.
"IN these and in all other Deliberations I fervently pray that the Blessing of Almighty God may guide your Counsels to the Promotion of the Happiness of My People."
Then HER MAJESTY was pleased to retire:
And the Commons withdrew.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

SELECT VESTRIES.
Bill, pro formâ, read 1a.
ABYSSINIA—IMPRISONMENT OF BRITISH SUBJECTS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that during the last Session of Parliament he had often called the attention of their Lordships to the condition of the British Consul and the British subjects imprisoned in Abyssinia, in the hope that he might obtain some definite information upon the subject. He had not, however, fully succeeded in his object, and he now asked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he had any intelligence to communicate respecting the matter? He particularly desired to be informed as to the last account that had been received of the condition in which

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  the prisoners were; whether Mr. Rassam had advanced at all in the mission -which was intrusted to him, and which had been so long in hand; and whether any further efforts had been made during the long interval which had elapsed since Mr. Rassam set out to secure the liberation of those prisoners. As he had not given notice of his intention to ask the Question, but merely mentioned the matter to the noble Earl a few minutes before, he should not press for a definite answer at present.
  THE EARL OF CLARENDONsaid, he would prefer postponing his answer.
  THE QUEEN'S SPEECHhaving been reported by The LORD CHANCELLOR;—

ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY ON HER MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY: My Lords, I rise for the purpose of moving the presentation of a humble Address to Her Majesty in reply to the gracious Speech with which it has pleased Her Majesty to open the present Parliament. I do so, I can assure your Lordships, with the utmost diffidence in my own power, and, if I had simply consulted my inclination, I would have readily conceded the task to some other Member of your Lordships' House, who from greater experience and talent would have been better able to do justice to the numerous and important topics contained in Her Majesty's Speech. I must, therefore, beg your Lordships to extend to me as fully as possible that forbearance and consideration which I know your Lordships always accord to those who address your Lordships for the first time.
My Lords, before entering upon the topics which are alluded to in Her Majesty's Speech, I must congratulate your Lordships upon the happy circumstance that it has pleased Her Majesty once again to open Parliament in person. I feel assured that this event will be viewed by your Lordships with the utmost satisfaction, and I am confident that it will be hailed with joy by the people of this country, who are at all times anxious to avail themselves of every opportunity to display their loyalty and affection towards Her Majesty.
Your Lordships have, I feel convinced, heard with pleasure the announcement which Her Majesty has graciously made
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of the approaching marriage of the Princess Helena. Such an event, calculated as it is to secure the happiness of the Princess will, I am sure, find a ready response at the hands of your Lordships. Nor, I am sure, is that pleasure likely to be diminished by the fact that we are not, in all probability, to be deprived by that marriage of the example and presence of Her Royal Highness in this country. It is a fortunate circumstance in the present day that dynastic or political considerations are no longer the ruling motives in the selection of Royal alliances. We view rather with pleasure the prospects of domestic happiness which they may hold out; and, in this instance, I trust the choice of Her Majesty has fallen upon one who is well calculated to promote the happiness of the Princess Helena. I feel certain, too, that your Lordships' satisfaction will be increased by the knowledge that Her Majesty, while thus consulting the happiness of her daughter, is not likely to be deprived of the society of one whose presence must ever brighten her home and mitigate that solitude which we all so much deplore.
My Lords, I am sure that your Lordships will also sympathize with the grief expressed by Her Majesty at the death of her illustrious relative the King of the Belgians, whose decease, bound as he was to this country by no common ties, cannot fail to be a source of universal regret. He was a wise and constitutional Prince, called upon under circumstances of an extraordinary kind to reign over a new kingdom, where he gained for himself the affection and esteem of his people during a reign prolonged beyond the ordinary term. In this new and difficult position the late King of the Belgians commanded the respect of every European kingdom, and died beloved and revered at home. His son, with so bright an example before him, will, we may confidently hope, seek to emulate it, and may well look forward to a brilliant future.
My Lords, I should be consulting neither my own feelings nor those of your Lordships, did I not here pay a tribute to the memory of one whose death has deprived this country of an eminent statesman and of a faithful servant, and the House of Commons of one of its oldest and most valued Members. My Lords, there were few in this country who heard of the death of Lord Palmerston without feeling that no ordinary man had passed

29
away—a man able in counsel, wise in debate, conciliatory in manner, possessed of a knowledge of his fellow-countrymen seldom attained by any. He secured to himself the affection, the confidence, the esteem, and the respect of the people of this country in a manner seldom if ever equalled, but certainly never surpassed, by any former statesman. At an age far exceeding that usually allotted to man, he was selected at a time of peculiar difficulty by the almost unanimous voice of the country as the one man best fitted to be intrusted with the interests of the Empire, and I am sure that his memory will long be regarded with affection and respect by the people.
My Lords, our commercial relations with America are so vast, and, above all, the desire of this country is so general for the welfare of that great country, that I am convinced that your Lordships will hear with peculiar satisfaction of the termination of the civil war which for four years deluged her fields with blood and wasted her resources. But that satisfaction must have been greatly increased by the knowledge that the termination of that war has been hallowed by the utter extinction of slavery on the North American continent. My Lords, could it be necessary to look for any means to strengthen the good feeling which exists in this country towards America, I am sure no better means could have been found than in the fact that her free institutions are no longer contaminated by slavery, and that all within her shores, whether white or black, are by law free alike. I am sure, too, my Lords, the feeling of this country will be most general in the anxious wish that the Government of America will be successful in their endeavours to repair the damages caused by the civil war, and that the whole of the American people will in future be strengthened and united. I am sure your Lordships will give the utmost consideration to the correspondence between the Governments of the United States and of this country on the subject of the injuries which have been inflicted upon the commerce of the former country by ships under the Confederate flag.
My Lords, the renewal of diplomatic relations between this country and Brazil must have been viewed by your Lordships with great satisfaction; and your Lordships will have heard with additional pleasure that Her Majesty's Government, in conjunction with that of His Imperial
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Majesty the Emperor of the French, have lost no time in tendering their friendly offices to the Governments of Spain and Chili, in the hope of preventing a war between those countries. Your Lordships will be further gratified to learn that their good offices have been accepted.
Her Majesty has informed your Lordships that a Commercial Treaty has been concluded with the Emperor of Austria; and, with the example of the late treaty with France before us, I am sure we may confidently expect that the commercial intercourse between the two countries will be greatly increased.
My Lords, the next paragraph in Her Majesty's Speech is one which I approach with considerable anxiety, as it refers to a subject which has led to angry controversy before people were in possession of evidence to enable them to arrive at any decided opinion. Your Lordships are all aware of the feelings with which the first news of the outbreak in Jamaica was received, and you are also aware of the feeling of indignation with which a large and influential portion of the people in this country received the accounts of the severities said to have been exercised in the repression of that rebellion. Governor Eyre, unfortunately, unadvisedly, and unaccountably, did not avail himself of the usual means of placing before this country the full circumstances of the case. Neither did he support by evidence the opinion he had formed of the outbreak. Under these circumstances, having no evidence before them—having no means of deciding upon the merits of the case—Her Majesty's Government—I think, wisely—adopted the only course open to them in appointing a Commission to inquire upon the spot into the character of the outbreak. Of the character of the Commissioners so appointed this House and the country can have but one opinion—for the character of each and all of these gentlemen is such as to secure that any investigation they may undertake will be searching, full, and impartial; and I myself, my Lords, shall be ready to abide by their decision. But, my Lords, in the meantime, until it be proved by evidence to the contrary, I shall believe that Governor Eyre was possessed of information of which we know nothing, and that he had certain knowledge of the circumstances which he mentioned in his first despatch; for I cannot believe that Governor Eyre, whose antecedents are so opposed to such a sup-

31
position, that the general of the forces, that every official, and all the influential persons throughout the island could have been so carried away by panic as to imagine that a general organized system of rebellion was in existence without evidence to that effect having been laid before them. Neither, my Lords, until it is proved by evidence, can I believe that the severities said to have been exercised have not been grossly exaggerated; for I cannot believe that except under circumstances absolutely necessary for the preservation of the colony and of the lives of the white inhabitants, Governor Eyre would have sanctioned severities which would have been an outrage upon humanity.
My Lords, Her Majesty has been graciously pleased to intimate that papers will be laid before you on the subject of Few Zealand; and I am sure your Lordships will learn with satisfaction that a considerable portion of Her Majesty's troops employed in that island are ordered to return home. Most sincerely do I trust that it may be long before any considerable force will have to revisit that island; because not only do I believe that it is the duty of the colonists themselves in such a war to protect themselves, but I believe also that they are far better able to carry it on successfully than are regular troops whose very discipline and organization which render Her Majesty's army so effective in other parts of the world are in a war of that kind actually in the way. The colonists themselves, accustomed to a rough life in a new country, unincumbered by baggage, are far better able than any regular forces to cope with the Natives. If left to themselves they will either come to some terms of peace with the Natives against whom they are opposed, or they will soon get rid of their antagonists, fighting them in their own way upon their own ground.
My Lords, Her Majesty has informed your Lordships that the Orders which have been issued by the Privy Council relating to the disease among cattle which has devastated many parts of the country will be laid before you. By the blessing of Providence, I am happy to say that in my own immediate neighbourhood its ravages have not been felt, and I am therefore unable to speak from personal experience upon the subject. But the urgency of the case is such that I am sure your Lordships will give the utmost consideration to any measure which may
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be brought before you by Her Majesty's Government.
My Lords, I approach the subject of the Fenian conspiracy in Ireland with the deepest regret; for we must all grieve at the disloyalty, the wickedness, and the folly of those who organized and who support this foul conspiracy. But, my Lords, while we do so it appears to me that in the present condition of Ireland there are circumstances calculated to raise a lively hope of a bright future for that country. At no period of her history has there been the same combination, the same union among all the respectable inhabitants of that country. Irrespective of religion, irrespective of class, irrespective of party, all are ready to join themselves together for the protection of law, order, and the Constitution. Not one respectable individual, not one person of property, not one person of consideration in the country, has joined the Penian movement. At no time have the juries more nobly, more justly, and more calmly performed their duties. My Lords, under these cheering circumstances, though we may regret the wickedness and the folly of those deluded men, we cannot for one moment fear the ultimate result of their conspiracy. They may injure their country, they may drive capital from Ireland, but of the ultimate result, I repeat it, there can be no doubt. I trust that sedition once banished from the land much of that unanimity, much of that combination for good which now exists may still continue, and that all may unite to promote the advancement and prosperity of Ireland. My Lords, in the full information evidently possessed by the Irish Government, in the calm, dignified, unimpassioned conduct of the Lord Lieutenant, we have the best guarantee that no outbreak can take place in that country without the knowledge of the Government; and, knowing this, knowing the overwhelming force which might be brought against them, I would fain hope that those who are engaged in this plot may be induced to see the hopelessness of their cause, and that Ireland may be saved from actual outbreak. But if they in their delusion venture to appeal to the arbitrament of arms, I trust no feeling of mistaken humanity will prevent them on the first outbreak receiving such a lesson as will show the utter hopelessness of their cause, and, by convincing them of the folly of their movement, the further effusion of blood may be prevented.

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My Lords, the various measures which will be brought before your Lordships by Her Majesty's Government will, I am sure, receive your careful consideration. We are informed by Her Majesty that information will be laid before this House as to the rights of voting in the election of Members of Parliament, and that, when that information is complete, a measure will be brought before you on that subject. My Lords, on several previous occasions Reform Bills have been brought under the consideration of the Legislature, and at one time a Bill was brought in by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby), at the time he was at the head of the Government. I therefore think it can hardly now be said that no discussion on this subject is necessary. Neither do I think that in the present day it can well be said that no change in the franchise should take place. Of the intentions of Her Majesty's Government on that subject I can, of course, know nothing. I can only express my hope that any measure they may bring forward will, while protecting the rights of property and the intelligence of the country, secure a fair and substantial representation of the working classes.
My Lords, I thank you for the forbearance with which you have heard me. I am fully aware of the imperfection of the remarks I have made, and I will not further trespass on your Lordships' time and consideration, but will move that the following humble Address be presented to Her Majesty:—
MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN,
"WE, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal Subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble Thanks to Your Majesty for Your Majesty's Gracious Speech.
"WE humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that Your Majesty has declared Your Consent to a Marriage between Your Majesty's Daughter The Princess Helena and Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein Sonderbonrg-Augustenburg; and with Your Majesty we trust this Union may be prosperous and happy.
"WE assure Your Majesty that we participate in the profound Grief felt by Your Majesty at the Death of Your Majesty's beloved Uncle The King of the Belgians; but we feel confident that the Wisdom which He evinced during His Reign will animate His Successor, and preserve for Belgium her Independence and Prosperity.
"WE rejoice to learn that Your Majesty's Relations with Foreign Powers are friendly and satisfactory, and that Your Majesty sees no Cause to fear any Disturbance of the general Peace.
"WE trust that the Meeting of the Fleets of France and England in the Ports of the respective Countries has tended to cement the Amity of the Two Nations, and to prove to the World their friendly Concert in the Promotion of Peace.
"WE humbly assure Your Majesty that we learn with Satisfaction that the United States, after terminating successfully the severe Struggle in which they were so long engaged, are wisely repairing the Ravages of Civil War; and that with Your Majesty we regard the Abolition of Slavery as an Event calling forth the cordial Sympathies and Congratulations of this Country, which has always been foremost in showing its Abhorrence of an Institution repugnant to every Feeling of Justice and Humanity.
"WE humbly convey our Thanks to Your Majesty for informing us that the Exertions and Perseverance of Your Majesty's Naval Squadron have reduced the Slave Trade on the West Coast of Africa within very narrow Limits.
"WE thank Your Majesty for directing Copies to be laid before us of the Correspondence which has taken place between Your Majesty's Government and that of the United States with respect to Injuries inflicted on American Commerce by Cruisers under the Confederate Flag.
"WE express our Thanks to Your Majesty for informing us that diplomatic Relations with Brazil have been renewed; and that the good Offices of Your Majesty's Ally The King of Portugal have contributed essentially to this happy Result.
"WITH Your Majesty we regret the Interruption of Peace between Spain and Chili; and we earnestly trust that through the good Offices of Your Majesty's Government, in conjunction with those of The Emperor of the French, the Causes of Disagreement may be removed in a Manner honourable and satisfactory to both Countries.
"WE thank Your Majesty for informing us that the Negotiations which have been long pending in Japan have been brought to a Conclusion which has received Your Majesty's entire Approbation; that the existing Treaties have been ratified by the Mikado; and that Stipulations have been made for the Revision of the Tariff in a Manner favourable to Commerce, and for the punctual Discharge of the Indemnity due under the Terms of the Convention of October 1864.
"WE humbly express to Your Majesty our Thanks for informing us that Your Majesty has

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concluded a Treaty of Commerce with The Emperor of Austria, which Tour Majesty trusts will pen to that Empire the Blessings of extended Commerce, and be productive of important Benefits to both Countries.
"WE humbly thank Tour Majesty for informing us that in consequence of the deplorable Events which have occurred in the Island of Jamaica Tour Majesty has been induced to provide at once for an impartial Inquiry, and for the Maintenance of Authority during that Inquiry, by appointing a distinguished Military Officer as Governor and Commander of the Forces; that Tour Majesty has given him the Assistance of Two able and learned Commissioners, who will aid him in examining into the Origin, Nature, and Circumstances of the recent Outbreak, and the Measures adopted in the course of its Suppression; and that the Legislature of Jamaica has proposed that the present Political Constitution of the Island should be replaced by a new Form of Government.
"WE assure Tour Majesty that we will give our careful Consideration to the Bill on this Subject which is to be submitted to us.
"WE thank Tour Majesty for directing Papers on these Occurrences, and on the present State of New Zealand, to be laid before us.
"WE convey to Tour Majesty our Thanks for informing us that Directions have been given for the Return to this Country of the greater Portion of Tour Majesty's Regular Forces employed in the Colony of New Zealand.
"WITH Tour Majesty we watch with Interest the Proceedings which are still in progress in British North America with a view to a closer Union among the Provinces, an Object to which Tour Majesty continues to attach great Importance.
"WE have observed with great Concern the extensive Prevalence, during the last few Months, of a virulent Distemper among Cattle in Great Britain, and it is with deep Regret, and with sincere Sympathy for the Sufferers, that we have learnt the severe Losses which it has caused in many Counties and Districts, whilst it is satisfactory to know that Ireland and a considerable part of Scotland are as yet free from this Calamity, and we trust with Tour Majesty that by the Precautions suggested by Experience, and by the Divine Blessing on the Means which are now being employed, its further Extension may be arrested.
"WE thank Tour Majesty for directing the Orders which have been made by the Lords of
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your Majesty's Privy Council, by virtue of the Powers vested in them by Law, with a view to prevent the spreading of this Disease, to be laid before us; and we humbly assure Tour Majesty that our best Attention shall be given to the Expediency of an Amendment of the Law relating to a Subject so deeply affecting the Interests of the People.
"WE humbly express our Thanks to Tour Majesty for informing us that a Conspiracy, adverse alike to Authority, Property, and Religion, and disapproved and condemned alike by all who are interested in their Maintenance, without Distinction of Creed or Class, has unhappily appeared in Ireland, and that the Constitutional Power of the ordinary Tribunals has been exerted for its Repression, and the Authority of the Law firmly and impartially vindicated.
"WE humbly assure Tour Majesty that our serious Consideration shall be given to the Bill to be submitted to us, founded on the Report of the Royal Commission, on the Subject of Capital Punishment; to the Bills for amending and consolidating the Laws relating to Bankruptcy, and for other Improvements in the Law; to the Measures for extending the System of Public Audit to Branches of Receipt and Expenditure, which it has not hitherto reached; and for amending the Provisions of the Law with respect to certain Classes of Legal Pensions; and to the Subject of the Oaths taken by Members of Parliament.
"WE thank Tour Majesty for having directed that Information should be procured in reference to the Rights of Voting in the Election of Members to serve in Parliament for Counties, Cities, and Boroughs; and we assure Tour Majesty that when that Information is complete our earnest Attention will be given to the Result thus obtained.
"WITH Tour Majesty we fervently pray that the Blessing of Almighty God may guide our Counsels to the Promotion of the Happiness of Tour People."
THE EARL OF MORLEY: My Lords, in rising to perform the duty which has on the present occasion devolved upon roe, I am fully sensible how greatly I stand in need of that leniency and indulgence which your Lordships are wont to extend to those Members of your House who are for the first time addressing you; and I would venture to say that I have a more than ordinary claim on your indulgence, in consideration no less of my own want of experience in public affairs than of the wide range and the varied and important

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nature of the subjects to which I have to call your Lordships' attention. Before, however, I proceed to these subjects, I cannot but most heartily congratulate your Lordships upon one circumstance which characterizes the present occasion. It is, I am confident, with feelings of the sincerest pleasure and gratification that you have seen Her Majesty so far restored to health and strength, after her severe afflictions, as to be enabled again to perform the functions of her high office, and in person to open her newly-assembled Parliament. Irreparable as is the loss which she and, in common with her, the nation have suffered, it may be that the very affiction itself, and the universal sympathy which it has called forth, will be the means of still further intensifying those sentiments of loyalty and attachment which England has ever felt towards her Sovereign, and which cannot fail to receive a fresh impulse from her re-appearance in the sphere of public life.
My Lords, the speech from the Throne contains matter both for congratulation and for condolence with Her Majesty—matter for congratulation in the approaching marriage of the Princess Helena—an event which, I am confident, your Lordships will cordially welcome, as contributing to Her Majesty's gratification, and, I trust, to the happiness of a member of the Royal Family; matter for condolence in an event which has at once deprived our Sovereign of a revered and beloved relative, and a neighbouring and friendly nation of a wise and sagacious ruler, whose prudent policy advanced it to its present state of prosperity, and whose counsels spread their influence far beyond the comparatively narrow limits of his own Kingdom through the whole length and breadth of Europe. The Belgians will, I doubt not, have your Lordships' sympathy and your best wishes that their present Sovereign, wisely following in the footsteps of his predecessor, may be enabled like him to preserve and to promote the welfare and independence of his subjects. My Lords, there is one more sad event which has occurred since we were last assembled here which I cannot pass over in silence, even though I only echo the sentiments expressed by the noble Mover of the Address. This country has lost one of its most venerable and one of its most popular statesmen. It has lost one who, by his affability and by his tact, could conciliate all those with whom he came in contact, and who, by his wide ex-
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perience and political sagacity, gained for himself the respect and the confidence of the whole nation. I will, my Lords, leave it to those better qualified than myself to pass an eulogium upon his life, devoted for more than half a century to the service of his country. All that I will say is that his memory will long be cherished with affection by the nation which now deplores his loss.
My Lords, I will, in the next place, refer to our foreign relations. Throughout the civilized world peace and tranquillity again prevail. The Chilian and Spanish, difficulties, it is true, threatened at first to give rise to a war; but it may reasonably be hoped that, before any further acts of hostility are committed which may tend to exasperate both parties, and to render an amicable solution of the question at issue impossible, the friendly interposition of the Great Powers may effect a reconciliation between the contending nations. In North America your Lordships will have heard with great satisfaction that the last year has been signalized by the termination of the deadly fratricidal contest which has for four years devastated that country. Our nation, it is true, was personally interested in the event; but the joy which it experiences at the restoration of peace is not of a purely selfish nature. It unfeignedly rejoices that a nation possessed of boundless resources, and endowed with indomitable energy, has again freedom to develop its constitution, its industry, and its commerce. It rejoices that the conclusion of the war is the signal for the abolition of negro slavery—an institution which is the bane of civilized society and a barrier to all true social progress. It rejoices, further, that the victorious have known how to use their victory with clemency, and to follow a moderate and wise line of policy in the reconstruction of the Union; and, finally, it sincerely hopes that no untoward events may tend to counteract the ties of race, of amity, and of interest, which should ever connect us with the re-United States. Our relations with other foreign Powers are no less calculated to contribute to your Lordships' satisfaction. With Brazil we are again on terms of amity. With France our union was never more cordial, never more firm. The mutual hospitalities which our fleets have interchanged tend, in no slight degree, to quicken those friendly feelings, and to strengthen the entente cordiale between the two nations, and in so doing give us the surest hopes that peace will

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prevail in Europe, and that civilization will spread throughout the world. With Austria we have recently entered into a Treaty of Commerce—a treaty which benefits this country by extending its commercial relations, and by opening a new field to mercantile adventure, and which, above all, marks the first success achieved by the principles of free trade against the stronghold of the protective system.
My Lords, the questions relating to our colonial policy have already been so ably treated by the noble Marquess who has just sat down that I need detain your Lordships but a very short time with them. The colonies are generally prosperous, and the more tranquil condition of New Zealand has warranted the withdrawal of a large proportion of Her Majesty's troops. But there is one deplorable exception to this general rule, which affects not less the welfare of an important colony than the reputation for justice and integrity of the mother country itself. My Lords, the facts of the Jamaica outbreak are still involved in obscurity. How far there was an organized rebellion among the black population of the island—how far that rebellion was the result of the previous unfair administration and tyrannical conduct of the white race—and, lastly, how far the emergency justified the apparently extreme severity of the execution—are questions which, I would humbly suggest, we are as yet not in a position to answer. Two diametrically opposite opinions seem to prevail on the opposite shores of the Atlantic. In Jamaica itself there is apparently a universal conviction that a widely-ramified conspiracy had been organized by the black population for the purpose of annihilating the white, and that the events at Morant Bay were but a premature outbreak of a general rebellion; and, further, the feeling seems generally to prevail that the Governor was not merely justified in his conduct, but that, for the energy with which he suppressed the outbreak, he deserved the gratitude of the whole island. In this country, on the other hand, large classes of men have most unfairly prejudged the whole question. Upon the most insufficient evidence they have condemned Governor Eyre—they have condemned him without a hearing—the very crime which they impute to him in his dealings with the negroes; and in some cases deny that there was any organized conspiracy at all. Both these opinions are equally unsatisfactory. In one case the opinion
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was given under the influence of a panic; —the colonists were under the impression that a race three times their number was preparing to destroy them en masse, and with the remembrance of the previous outbreak of 1831, and with the example of Hayti before their eyes, they might not unnaturally be induced to exaggerate their danger—if they did exaggerate it— and in the fulness of their gratitude to justify any measures which had been the means of effectually averting it. In the other case, men have ventured, upon the most imperfect evidence, to pass sentence on events which occurred 5,000 mites from these shores under a set of conditions of which they have never had the slightest experience. From their own position of security they have rashly condemned the measures of those who were acting under the belief that their lives and properties were in hourly danger. Under these circumstances, my Lords, and allowing that prima facie Governor Eyre's measures seem to be unnecessarily severe, there was but one course for Her Majesty's Government to pursue; and this course they have adopted. A judicious and carefully selected Commission, with Sir Henry Storks at its head—a man of acknowledged administrative power, and of a character above all unfairness or partiality—has been sent out to investigate the circumstances of the case. To enable this Commission fully and impartially to perform its duties, Governor Eyre has been temporarily superseded — a step which has been the subject of adverse criticism, but which was, under the circumstances, absolutely necessary, and which in no way prejudges the case or throws any stigma on the Governor's conduct. When this inquiry is completed, and the whole circumstances are laid before you, it will remain with your Lordships to condemn or approve the measures of the Jamaica Executive, as the case may be:—while it is still pending, it cannot but be unfair to express a decided opinion either way.
There remain three subjects of the most vital importance connected with the homo policy of this country, in consideration of which I venture to make a still further claim on your Lordships' indulgence. In Ireland, my Lords, revolutionary schemes have again been brought to light—schemes which though they may be wanting in every essential element of success have yet been productive of considerable annoyance, and may temporarily retard the

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rapid development of the resources and the industry of the island. Fenianism is a vibration of the vast movements which have recently agitated the Transatlantic States. Five years or more has it been in coming to maturity, and now its promoters have doubtless been encouraged to persist in their designs by the delusive hope that the termination of the war in America would be the signal for a rupture with this country—a hope which I trust and believe is doomed to lasting disappointment. However annoying the schemes of the revolutionary brotherhood may be, there are, at all events, many circumstances which, if we compare the present with previous outbreaks of 1798 or 1848, cannot fail to quiet any alarm we may feel on their account. In the first place, the Fenians are countenanced by no religious party whatever—the parson and the priest unite in denouncing them. In the second place, it is remarkable that no persons of education, of property, of wealth, or of respectability are to be found in their ranks. All men possessed of these advantages are prepared to resist any outbreak which may occur. Lastly, the honesty and courage with which the Irish juries have performed their duty gives us at once the best proof of the loyalty that prevails among the respectable classes in Ireland, and the surest grounds for confidence that the authority of the law will remain unimpaired. I need scarcely say how much is due to the judicious and energetic conduct of the Dublin Executive. They allowed the conspiracy to assume assailable dimensions before they interfered; but, at the same time, did not postpone that interference until it ceased to be amenable to the power of the law, and could only be suppressed by the power of the sword. This unhappy conspiracy has been throughout treated as a matter which should excite neither our alarm nor our contempt; and, thus treated, there can, I trust, be no reason to doubt that before long it will succumb before the triple authority of law, property, and religion.
My Lords, the second of these questions which is alluded to in Her Majesty's Speech, and which is of such great importance that I venture to approach it only with considerable diffidence, is the great constitutional question of Reform. Scarcely any one would, I think, venture to maintain that the present system of the representation of the people in Parliament is faultless. The Bill passed in 1832, beneficial
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as it was, was not absolutely perfect; and, moreover, since those days the condition of the middle and lower classes of society has undergone a very considerable change. Education and culture have in that period made rapid strides, and have extended their influence to numbers who before scarcely felt their effects at all. And so, my Lords, experience has shown, and all parties agree in admitting, that there are inequalities and defects of one kind or another in our present system of representation. The correction of these defects has constantly been the subject of debate; during the last fourteen years no less than four different measures for Reform have been introduced; they have successively been rejected or withdrawn, and have left the question at issue in as vague and uncertain a condition as they found it. Surely, my Lords, it is high time that measures were taken to arrive at some definite conclusion on this all-important point? Surely, it is at once below the dignity of the Legislature, and contrary to the wishes of the nation, that a question which so nearly affects the interests of all its classes should any longer remain without solution. Such a solution, however, is not to be found in abstract principles or in political theories, but in the dictates of practical sense, in wide experience, and in accurate knowledge of the particular circumstances of the case, guided by statistical information; and this information Her Majesty's Government are at the present time carefully collecting in as precise and accurate a form as the means which they have in their power will enable them to do. And this will form a solid basis for the measure, whatever be its nature, which will be brought before your Lordships' House. Guarding against the danger of subverting the existing order of things, and creating confusion in the political and mercantile interests of the Kingdom, I trust that, when the time comes, your Lordships will give your sanction and approval to some well-considered measure of Reform which may tend to correct or to modify any existing anomalies, and to add vigour and stability to the institutions of the country.
There is still one question of the most serious importance on which I will venture a few remarks, and then I will cease to trespass any further on your Lordships' patience. Our nation is at the present moment suffering from the effects of a national calamity. The cattle plague

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which visited this country in the middle of the last century has again re-appeared among our herds, and the fearful rapidity? with which it is spreading may reasonably excite the greatest alarm among all classes of society. The rapidity of its progress, and deadliness of its effects, are but too clearly indicated by the simple facts of the case. In June there was but one spot infected by the disease; there are now more than 13,000. The number of new cases which occurred during the past week, amounting to 11,000, exceed by 1,000 those that were reported for the whole month of November. And, again, the Returns of last week show an increase of 1,400 on the week immediately preceding it. Already 120,000 animals, if the Returns can be trusted, have been attacked, and of these 90,000 have either died or been killed. These figures disclose a most alarming state of things. Medical science has hitherto been completely baffled in its investigations. In all probability it was introduced into this country by some Dutch cattle imported to the Metropolitan Market. And since it has been introduced, the subtle and the deadly effects of the poison it generates are but too well known to your Lordships. There is scarcely any agency of which it does not avail itself in its rapid extension—the clothes of the herdsmen, sheep, dogs, birds, and even the wind itself, will carry the seeds of the distemper for at least 200 yards; and, further, the eccentric course which it often follows, leaving some spots, for no apparent reason, completely free, and attacking the adjoining farms with the utmost violence, show its affinity to human epidemics and frustrate the investigations of science. As to remedies, we are no less at a loss. Each one may ascribe the recovery of the few cattle out of his herd to the cures which he himself employed. But in reality all the remedies and drugs which have hitherto been applied have proved equally ineffectual, and the hopes which were derived from the supposed affinity of the disease with small-pox seem doomed to like disappointment. Under these circumstances, several Orders in Council have been issued, empowering the local authorities to use such means as were deemed necessary to check the progress of the murrain, either by slaughtering infected animals or by stopping all cattle traffic within their district; and an Act is at the present moment prepared to give further powers to these local courts, who will, I trust, by mutual
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co-operation and by uniform and stringent action obviate the necessity for the interference of the central power. It has been maintained that the emergency has already demanded this interference on the part of the central power. But it must be remembered that circumstances differ in different localities, and that any uniform measure applied to the whole country would fall very differently on different places. The farmers and landowners of Cheshire and Yorkshire would welcome any measures of however a stringent and universal a character; but the twenty-three counties in this island which are as yet free from the disease, and the large towns which are still well supplied with meat, would not receive them with such unqualified approval, nor would they in any way cooperate in enforcing them; and, further, it has always been a principle in this country to leave the management of local affairs to local authorities, who are supposed to be better acquainted with the peculiar circumstances of their case, and at the same time to have a greater interest in it, and consequently the central Government has not at its disposal all that organization which exists in so many Continental States, to enable it to carry out stringently and effectually the measures it deems expedient. These are serious, if not impassable, difficulties which hitherto any uniform measure would have had to encounter. And I cannot but think that, of the two alternatives of employing central or local powers, Her Majesty's Government chose the right, and, perhaps, the only practicable one. It will remain with your Lordships to determine whether any further means are to be taken to check the rapid extension of the plague, and what the nature of these means should be— whether any uniform or partially uniform plan could be devised which could at once be carried into execution by the local authorities, and regulate their measures. There is, however, one source of consolation in this calamity—namely, that it has pleased Providence, in His mercy, to send it upon this country at a time when perhaps of all periods of its history it will be best able to bear it. It has visited us in a year of abundant harvest, and at a time when commerce is more active and productive than ever it was before, and when the revenue, notwithstanding reductions in taxation, shows a balance of between two and three millions—at a time, in fact, when this country has reached a height of

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prosperity almost unparalleled in the history of the world.
My Lords, my task is now accomplished. I have to the best of my power, however imperfectly that may be, touched upon the main topics of Her Majesty's Speech. All that remains for me now to do is to thank you most sincerely for the patient and indulgent hearing you have given to my remarks, and to conclude with a hope that the Address which I now have the honour of seconding may meet with your Lordships' unanimous approval. [See Page, 33.]
THE DUKE OF RUTLAND: My Lords, I have never before risen to address your Lordships on a similar occasion, but I trust I may now be allowed to address a few observations to your Lordships on one topic referred to in the Royal Speech, in which I, in common with Her Majesty's subjects at large, take the deepest interest—I allude to the cattle plague. To that one topic I will confine my observations. Before doing so, I beg to express my hearty concurrence in all that has fallen from the Mover and Seconder of the Address in those portions of their speeches in which they dwelt upon the pleasure which it must give your Lordships to find that Her Majesty has again opened Parliament in person, and the regret with which you must have heard of the death of the late Prime Minister, and of his Majesty the King of the Belgians. The cattle plague has, as the noble Earl who seconded the Address has observed, been raging in this country for more than six months; it has gone on increasing from month to month, and we had as yet found no means of repressing its virulence. As yet there has been found no specific remedy for the disease, and men of all shades of political opinion who have given their attention to the subject seem to have arrived at the conclusion that a system of prevention not of cure is that which alone it is practicable to adopt. That being so, I should like to ask what the Government has done in the matter? The answer is that they have done next to nothing. They have done almost worse than nothing. They have, it is true, issued a number of Orders in Council; but I believe that if the money expended on their issue had been laid out in taking effective measures to stop the disease and indemnifying the unfortunate sufferers from it, the cattle plague would be a thing of the past, and your Lordships would not that evening be engaged in discussing the subject. As it was, the Orders in Council which were sent out
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one after the other were in themselves vague, unsatisfactory, and often contradictory of each other—they agree in nothing but in showing the evident determination of the Government to shift all responsibility, as far as possible, from their own shoulders. Sometimes it has been placed upon the magistrates in petty sessions, and sometimes upon the magistrates in quarter sessions; but always it is to be remarked that the Government will not take the responsibility upon themselves. I may be told—indeed, we have been told by the noble Lord who seconded the Address—that the difficulties of the case were almost insuperable; that although the disease had appeared in England about a century ago, yet the experience then acquired as to its action had so died out that it must really be looked on as something new, and that all that the Government could do was to institute an inquiry into the matter, and that they had done all that was in their power. I, however, venture to question the correctness of that view. In the first place, a Committee had, in 1854, been appointed by the House of Commons to take into consideration a Bill which was then pending in that House—the Cattle Diseases Prevention Bill, and by that Committee a great deal of evidence was taken, Professor Simonds, among others, being one of the witnesses who was examined. Now, he found that Professor Simonds on that occasion stated that the rinderpest was a disease perfectly well known, and that he himself had seen it prevailing in Russia and Bavaria. He, moreover, described the steps which were taken in those countries as having proved perfectly satisfactory in preventing the spread of the plague. With such evidence before the Government, how is it possible, I will ask, to contend that the rinderpest is a thing with which we were altogether unacquainted? But I will go a step further, and remind the House that in September last a Royal Commission was appointed for the purpose of investigating the disease, and that a majority of that Commission reported at the end of October, in the strongest possible manner, in favour of stopping all communication in the way of the transit of cattle throughout the country. What has the Government done in consequence? Instead of adopting the stringent measures recommended by the Commission they have thrown the responsibility on the local authorities, and have refrained from doing anything themselves.

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Yet they showed by their own conduct that they were aware that the means which they declined to adopt were, in reality, the most efficacious remedy for the disease; because there are two very remarkable instances in which they did act, and acted with great rigour on that view, and with great success. One was in the case of Ireland. There was, happily, no rinderpest there, and the Government very properly stopped the importation of cattle into that country. It is perfectly true that they did not do so without hesitation. When the Home Secretary first received a deputation on the subject, he said there were insuperable difficulties in the way of stopping the importation of cattle into Ireland; but some persuasive eloquence used by the Irish Members had the effect of altering the determination of the Government, and the insuperable difficulty was swept away. But to go from the West to the North, I find another remarkable case of action by the Government, and it is incidentally alluded to in the Royal Speech—I allude to the case of Argyllshire. There was no rinderpest there; and there the Government again took very vigorous steps. So that he was, he thought, justified in saying that they could not plead ignorance on the subject as an excuse for the course which they had pursued in this country, or for saying they had done all that it was possible for them to do. I have ventured to make these observations to your Lordships because I hope that, even now, at that late hour, we may be able to induce Her Majesty's Government to rouse from their lethargy and do what I conceive to be their duty—namely, to stop all movement of cattle in England, and also all importation of cattle into England from abroad. The other day I attended a large meeting in my own county on that subject, and I noticed that the passage in an able speech, made by a gentleman present, which was most applauded, was that in which the speaker said, "We must put our shoulders to the wheel, and get rid of the rinderpest; or, if we cannot do that, we must get rid of the Ministry."
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND: I ask your Lordships' indulgence for a short time while I allude to a paragraph in the Speech from the Throne on a subject in which I take the deepest interest. I am happy to find that, owing to the very able manner in which the noble Duke has addressed you, it is unnecessary for me to occupy
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much of your time. Feeling, however, as I do, that the conduct of Her Majesty's Government before and since the alarming spread of this cattle plague is open to grave censure, I am unwilling, on this occasion, to remain altogether silent. In the paragraphs in the Speech delivered by Her Majesty which allude to the cattle plague, I confess that I think the wording of the last part of the first paragraph is somewhat extraordinary. The passage to which I refer is that in which Her Majesty says—
"I trust that by the precautions suggested by experience and by the Divine blessing on the means which are now being employed its further extension may be arrested."
I venture to think that it would have been a preferable mode of expressing the sentiment if that part of the Speech in which Her Majesty is made to hope that "the Divine blessing on the means which are now being employed may arrest the further extension of the cattle plague" had preceded, instead of coming after, the mention of "the precautions suggested by experience." The next paragraph proceeds to state that—
"The Orders that have been made by the Lords of the Privy Council by virtue of the powers vested in them by law, with a view to prevent the spreading of this disease, will be laid before you."
Now, I would venture to call the attention of the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) to this paragraph, and to ask whether it is perfectly certain that the Government have acted in strict accordance with the law? There is an old maxim delegatus delegari non potest. I believe that the action of the Privy Council has been taken under the 11 & 12 Vict. c. 107, s. 4. By that section the Privy Council are empowered to make such orders and regulations as to them may seem necessary for the purpose of prohibiting the removal of cattle, and so on; and, in another part—
"To make any other order and regulation for the purpose of giving effect to the Act; to revoke or annul any order when so made, and that such orders should have the like effect as if they had been inserted in the Act."
Now, under this Act, the Privy Council had power to make such Orders as they pleased; but I doubt whether they had power to delegate to another body those powers which the Act of Parliament conferred upon them. I think that in dealing with these provisions of the law the Government have been unfortunate. I agree with my noble Friend, the Government were in one of two difficulties. Either

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the Government were perfectly cognizant of these matters or they were not. Now, I think they cannot plead ignorance, for many reasons which I will not weary your Lordships by repeating. They have been already referred to by my noble Friend. Professor Simonds, in his evidence before the Royal Commission, stated that he made his visit to Galicia in 1857 in consequence of information which had reached the Government from Consuls abroad, especially at Lubeck, of the spread of the cattle disease at Luxembourg, and of its steady advance towards those Continental ports from whence we were importing cattle. This was in 1857. I would venture to call the attention of your Lordships to the opinion of Professor Simonds, after having satisfied himself that this disease that broke out in England was identical with that in Galicia. He says—
"In July, 1857, I ascertained that the disease had appeared in England, and the result was the present Order of the Privy Council."
He was then asked what was the effect of the first Order in Council, and I call the noble Earl's particular attention to this, for at first I really thought it was a misprint—he was asked what was the effect of the first Order in Council; and his answer was—
"I think the effect was to spread the disease more quickly than it would have spread otherwise."
The Government have been urged throughout to take the responsibility upon themselves. It is a responsibility that belongs to the Executive of this country; it is what they have no right to shirk. But what was the course which the Government took? In the first place, they issued an Order in Council empowering magistrates in petty sessions to stop traffic in cattle at markets and fairs in their petty sessional division; and what is the result? The magistrates in petty sessions did stop the traffic in cattle at markets and fairs, but in no two petty sessional divisions had the same orders been issued. Nay, I know an instance where the magistrates in petty sessions in the county put a stop to all fairs and markets in their petty sessional division; but the mayors of two boroughs in the same division declined to do so. And we had this state of things, which was very inconvenient, to say the least—that the county markets were closed by order of the petty sessions, while the markets in the towns were open by order of the mayors. The Secre-
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tary of State was applied to in this difficulty, and he wrote very politely to the mayors of those boroughs, calling attention to the fact, and the mayors replied—no doubt with equal politeness—declining to make any alteration. That is a state of things which, if the Government had acted properly, never could have arisen. What was the next Order? The Privy Council empowered the magistrates in quarter sessions to put a stop to cattle traffic. In other words, they would not incur the odium, if odium there were, of doing it themselves. They shrank from the responsibility which belonged to them as the Executive, and placed that responsibility on the magistrates of the county. My Lords, I will not trespass longer on your time with reference to this subject; but having felt great interest in it, I was unwilling to be altogether silent. There is one other topic introduced into Her Majesty's Speech on a subject in which I was more or less mixed up, and on which I wish to make a few observations. I allude to the paragraph in which we read—
"A Bill will be submitted to you founded on the Report of the Royal Commission on the subject of Capital Punishment, which I have directed to be laid before you."
I think I am speaking the sentiments of the majority of my brother Commissioners when I express our very great annoyance that the Report of that Commission, before it was signed by the Commissioners, and before it had been presented to Her Majesty, should have appeared in the columns of The Morning Star. I consider that to be a breach of confidence towards the Members of the Commission, and a gross want of respect to the Sovereign on the Throne.
LORD FEVERSHAMsaid: I desire to make a few observations on the cattle disease, because I also am dissatisfied with the paragraphs of the Speech which refer to that subject, and it is my intention to propose an Amendment to the Address on that point. Tour Lordships are well aware of the circumstances attending this unparalleled and destructive malady. It first appeared in the month of June in the metropolis, then it extended to the suburbs of London, and last it became diffused through many of the counties, until it stalked unchecked through the length and breadth of the vallies, and has climbed unsubdued to the summit of the hills, and there are few

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places in the kingdom which have wholly escaped its ravages.
"Parva metu primò, mox sese attollit in auras,
Ingrediturque solo, et caput inter nubila condit."
The question your Lordships have now to consider is whether the course taken by Her Majesty's Government has been such as to meet the magnitude of the evil and the exigencies of the case. Was it adequate to the occasion? Public opinion has answered this question in the negative. Great dissatisfaction has been engendered; the action of the Government has been regarded with general disappointment and disapprobation; and distrust has taken the place of confidence and assurance. It cannot be said that Her Majesty's Ministers have been taken by surprise, for there were sufficient indications from other quarters of the great importance of the subject, and of the peril with which it is attended. Your Lordships have been told that the Government had acted in one respect with great vigour. But it is well known that the Government at first refused to comply with the memorial from Irish landowners and farmers that the importation of cattle into Ireland should be stopped. The memorialists were told that there were insuperable obstacles in the way of granting this request. But when the representatives of the Irish people took up the question and forwarded a strong remonstrance to the Government on the subject, these insuperable difficulties were at once overcome; the importation of cattle into Ireland was prohibited; and the country had, in consequence, enjoyed complete immunity from the ravages of the disease. What was the course taken with respect to the disease by the French Government? On the 5th of September the French Minister for Agriculture addressed a letter to the Emperor, recommending the most stringent measures to prevent the importation of the disease into the ports of France, that the introduction of foreign cattle from the sea coast and from the northern and eastern frontiers should be prohibited. The Emperor of the French at once acted on those suggestions. The Belgian Government pursued an analagous course, and the consequence was—as it had been in Ireland—that those two countries had to a large extent escaped the ravages of the plague. Would that the Government of this country had acted with the same energy and decision. Her Majesty's Government, in the first instance, gave
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the justices in petty sessions power and authority to take certain steps to stop markets and fairs and appoint inspectors. Nine out of ten of these inspectors, however, had never seen the disease; yet they had the power of destroying every animal they suspected, although they were often unable to distinguish the true rinderpest from pleuro-pneumonia or other inflammatory disorders to which cattle are liable. After the disease had raged for three months the Government determined to appoint a Royal Commission. It contained among its members men of great eminence and talent, of practical knowledge and scientific research, who devoted a large portion of their time and labour to the investigation of the subject, collected some important facts, and on the 31st of October issued a Report, but in consequence of not being unanimous, probably, their recommendations were set at naught. The time of year had now arrived when the principal agricultural societies of the country are accustomed to hold their meetings in London. The Council of the Royal Agricultural Society of England took the whole matter into consideration, they drew up most important resolutions, and a deputation in December last waited upon the noble Earl the President of the Council and the Secretary of State for the Home Department. They made recommendations which were endorsed by other agricultural bodies, but which the Government declined to adopt. At length a great change came over the Government, and they transferred the powers conferred upon the justices in petty sessions to the justices in quarter sessions. This change of plan clothed the question with fresh difficulties, ambiguities, and perplexities. It made confusion worse confounded, for the various quarter sessions issued different orders, some more stringent than others, which have caused great inconvenience, and the inhabitants of several districts not being able to comprehend why these discrepancies and incongruities should exist, applied to the magistrates for information; but the explanation they received not being satisfactory, they still entertain hopes that the Government, even at the eleventh hour, are prepared, to recommend some definite course of action for the guidance of the whole country, in lieu of leaving the matter in the hands of local authorities, whose views and opinions are certain to differ, and whose decisions could not pos-

53
sibly be expected to be susceptible of amalgamation or concurrence. It is not surprising that the subject of indemnity and compensation for the losses sustained should have been mooted, for in many parts of the country these losses have been most heavily felt. Although I am aware this is not the time or place to discuss this point, I will venture to say if it was the determination of the Government not to grant any remuneration or indemnity out of the public funds, it was the more incumbent on them to adopt from the first every precaution, to exhaust every effort, and to assume the whole responsibility of dealing vigorously with the subject in lieu of telling a deputation to wait and see. If a man's house is on fire he does not wait and see whether it will be burnt down before he takes steps to extinguish the flames. Delays were said to be dangerous, and that was particularly true in the present case. The noble Lord concluded by moving his Amendment.
Amendment proposed to be made to the Address by inserting after the words ("so deeply affecting the interests of my people")
"We beg Leave submissively to add our deep Regret that upon this important Subject the Government did not from the first assume the Responsibility of issuing an Order for Uniformity of Action throughout the Country, as essential to avert the Progress and to mitigate the Severity of so virulent, appalling, and destructive a Malady."
THE EARL OF ESSEXsaid, he must express his concurrence in almost all that had fallen from the noble Lord who had just sat down. In his opinion, Her Majesty's Government had shown the greatest want of vigour throughout the whole of their proceedings on this subject. He was quite aware how unwilling Governments were to undertake responsibility, and to go out of the track of routine; but extraordinary crises called for extraordinary action and vigour, and he must express his conviction that Her Majesty's Government had shown the greatest possible lack both of courage and action in this matter. If ever there was a case in which vigour and uniformity of action were required it was this; but how was it possible to secure either when the Privy Council delegated to the petty sessions, or quarter sessions, the powers they ought to have exercised themselves? He was perfectly well aware that if the passage of cattle from place to place within the country had been stopped six months ago, great dissatisfac-
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tion would have arisen among the farmers; but the case was now altered. The people were all strongly impressed with the absolute necessity of strong measures, and would, of course, submit to their imposition. In every newspaper, provincial as well as metropolitan, letters from agriculturists appeared calling upon the Government to exercise its authority, for the suppression of the disease; and the same demand was made by speakers at agricultural meetings throughout the country. In a few weeks hence it would be extremely difficult to take the necessary steps. At the present time the cattle were penned up in the farmyards; but what would be the consequence when they were turned adrift to feed in the fields, or driven to market for sale? The House would perceive at once how greatly the chances of infection would be increased. He abjured Her Majesty's Government to take such steps as would entirely put a stop to all movement of cattle. He did not know whether he should be in order in asking the question, but if he were, he would ask what Her Majesty's Government were proposing to do? He was sure the answer would be listened to with the greatest interest, and received by the community at large with no little dismay if the hope he had ventured to express were not favourably responded to.
THE EARL OF WINCHILSEAsaid, he perfectly agreed with the noble Earl that Her Majesty's Government had done little or nothing; but he was disposed to go still further, and to say that in the little they had done they had exceeded their authority; and they had done that which they had no more right to do than they had to put their hands into any of their Lordships' pockets and take out what they pleased. The Act of 1848 was sufficiently strong in its provisions. It gave the Government power with reference to persons bringing diseased beasts into any fair or market—it gave them power to stop the fairs and markets altogether; and it gave them control over all the highways and thoroughfares of the country. But the first thing they did was, not to exercise those powers, but to send inspectors on to private premises, with power to break open doors if entrance was refused them, those inspectors being authorized to kill any cattle which they might consider to be infected; and they directed penalties to be inflicted upon the proprietors of cattle who objected to these proceedings. Now he believed

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that those assumed powers were wholly illegal, and that when the inspectors broke open doors they were guilty of burglary—at any rate he thought that in such cases the owner would have an action at common law against the inspector, or ultimately against the Crown or the country wherever a beast had been killed contrary to the will of the proprietor. Perhaps the noble Lords opposite would come down to the House with a Bill of Indemnity. If they did, it would, no doubt, be very politely received; but that this or the other House would pass such a measure, unless it contained some restitution to the owners of the cattle which had been killed, he could scarcely bring himself to believe. He thought the Government owed the agriculturists some compensation for having brought in the disease; for he maintained that it had been introduced by the laches of the Government as plainly as if they had brought in the plague in a bundle of old clothes from Mecca. At any rate they had allowed the importation of beasts from Hungary and Russia, where it was notorious that cattle were subject to a disease analogous to the plague. What the Government should have done was only to have allowed the importation of foreign beasts into particular ports, where inspectors might have been stationed, and where the beasts might have been got into a proper state of health before they were allowed to go further into the country. There was nothing, however, to prevent the admission of diseased cattle at this very moment. The plague came from Europe, and how did they know that new cases did not arrive every week? During the three months of winter they might have prevented the movement of stock; but the 1st of May was drawing near, and then a penalty of £10,000 would not prevent the farmers from turning their cattle out to grass—in fact, they could not help themselves; it was a positive necessity, for the beasts must otherwise starve. It was very well known that even now the Order in Council was not strictly obeyed; for, on all hands, as their Lordships must have seen, cattle were driven along the highways with impunity. If Her Majesty's Government were in doubt as to what they should do, let them study The Gentleman's Magazine for 1745. George the Second's was not considered a very liberal Government, but his Government paid half the value of each beast
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that was killed to the owner. He invited the Government of to-day to be as liberal as the Government of 1745. His noble Friend the Secretary of State for the War Department had certainly shown a spirit of liberality. He had issued a remarkable document announcing that, in consequence of the sufferings of the Yeomanry Cavalry, the Government would not press for the tax on their horses. This tax would amount to about £60,000 he understood. That was as if their Lordships were to say that because there happened to be smallpox in a few cottages on their estates they would give away no beef at Christmas. It seemed to him that the £60,000 which would be saved by not calling out the Yeomanry, might very well go to form the nucleus of an insurance fund to compensate the farmers for the loss they had sustained by the neglect of the Government in allowing this abominable disease to come into the country. The Government had, in fact, made them a present not only of this disease, but also of pleuro-pneumonia, and of foot-and-mouth disease, by permitting the introduction of foreign beasts without proper precautions. As he had already said, the Government had not put in force the enormous powers given to the Privy Council by the Act—the provisions of which seemed to have been passed by some autocratic body rather than by an English Parliament—and they had done that which they had no right whatever to do. If one of their Lordships instructed his steward to buy fifty beasts, and the man went and bought a hundred and fifty horses, no regard for his character, or for his wife and family, would restrain that noble Lord from dismissing him. Whether Her Majesty would take that course with her present servants he could not tell; but he was afraid they were too strongly backed up by another House. He must, however, say that no Gentlemen were ever placed—if he might use the term in a Parliamentary sense—in so ignominious a position as that occupied by the noble Lords opposite.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, after the course this discussion has taken, I think it will be better if I at once furnish your Lordships with some information in reply to the various speeches made, partly on the other side and partly on this side of the House, all, however, in a great degree condemnatory of the conduct of the Government, with regard to this great disaster, the cattle plague. I certainly

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am not surprised, considering the length of time this disaster has continued, and the fact that it is in most parts of the country rather on the increase than on the decrease, that noble Lords should express themselves somewhat warmly upon the subject. I doubt, however, whether the noble Earl who has just sat down (the Earl of Winchilsea) is justified in characterizing the Government as burglars, and the actual importers of the cattle plague into this country, in so light and cheery a manner, scarcely befitting the gravity of the subject to which he was referring. The noble Duke who spoke fourth in the debate (the Duke of Richmond) and the noble Earl (the Earl of Winchilsea) have impugned the legality of the course pursued by the Government, and they have expressed their belief that the Government had no right to give power to the local authorities to issue orders. But the fact is that the local authorities did not issue orders—they only received authority to carry into effect, by giving notices, the general Order of the Privy Council. I cannot believe that the noble Lord who has proposed an Amendment (Lord Feversham) seriously wishes to press it upon the consideration of your Lordships, whatever may be his opinion as to the course pursued by the Government in not assuming from the first the responsibility of issuing an Order for a uniform system throughout the country. If he does press the Amendment he certainly will not secure the vote of the noble Earl behind me (the Earl of Essex), who confesses that measures which would be welcomed now would not have been regarded with favour six months since. It would have been perfectly impossible for the Government to put a stop to the importation of foreign cattle and the movement of cattle in the United Kingdom at the commencement of July last. The accusations made by the noble Duke (the Duke of Rutland) against the Government are not consistent, and one or the other of them must necessarily be unfounded. He charges Her Majesty's Government with having done nothing, and with having done worse than nothing; one of these charges, if established, must disprove the other. Her Majesty's Government knew nothing concerning the existence of the disease until the 10th of July, and cases were reported in Kent on the 14th of July, in Sussex on the 18th, and in Hampshire on the 21st of the same month. Now,
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allowing only seven days for the incubation of the disease, the contagion must have existed in Kent on the 7th and in Sussex on the 11th—the day following that on which the Government heard for the first time of the existence of the disease in the country; so that no uniform system could have excluded the plague, even if the Government could have accepted and acted upon one. I will refer presently to the question whether the conduct of the Government has been judicious; but in answer to the charge that we have done nothing, I claim for the Government and for the officers concerned in the subject very great activity in the matter. On the afternoon of the 10th of July, Professor Simonds gave information that he had reason to believe that the rinderpest existed in the city in some few cases. I was informed of the matter that afternoon, and I gave immediate orders that Professor Simonds should at once examine into the nature and causes of the disease, and report upon the cases which were said to have occurred. Orders were also particularly given to the police, who assisted in the investigation. On the 17th the Professor reported. We received his letter on the 18th, and we communicated that day with the Home Office. They replied, stating that under the Act alluded to an Order in Council could be issued; and we gave urgent instructions the same day to prepare the Order which was subsequently passed on the 24th. The attention of the agricultural portion of the community had meanwhile been directed on the 12th by Professor Simonds to the existence of the disease, and between that time and the 24th, when the first Order was passed, there were consultations of every kind. It will, however, weary your Lordships if I go into the details of every matter which engaged the attention of the Privy Council. I may mention one fact with regard to the illustrious statesman whose decease has been lamented on both sides of the House—that he paid great attention to the subject to within a week of his death; and, as a singular instance of the activity of his mind, I may add that a very short time before his death he wrote a clear and lucid memorandum on the scientific part of the question. There has been an excellent pamphlet written by Dr. Lyon Playfair, one of the Commissioners, and in that pamphlet he throws considerable blame on the Government; but he distinctly says that up to the time of the

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Report of the Commission the action of the Government was prompt and decidedly in advance of public opinion, and I think that there cannot possibly be a doubt as to the truth of that statement. He says, as noble Lords have said to-day, that subsequent to the publication of the Report of the Commissioners, we lagged behind public opinion; and this charge may be true to a certain extent. But when public opinion was so divided upon the nature of the cattle plague and the manner of dealing with it, either by way of prevention or cure, it is not any strong accusation against the Government that they did not immediately act upon the many conflicting suggestions which might seem from time to time to receive the public approval. It was quite true that an able and competent Commission was appointed, and that a Report was issued by them at the end of October. It was two or three weeks before we acted upon the Report, and for this reason—that Commission was not unanimous. There are three other Reports appended by other members of the Commission, each of them not only different, but written with marked ability. It was, therefore, impossible for the Government to take action until the evidence upon which those Reports were framed had been printed. It has been suggested that we have endeavoured to get rid of all odium, that we have shrunk from all responsibility which belonged to us as the Executive by throwing it upon the local magistrates. But I may say that there has been no timidity in this matter on the part of the Government. I believe the duty of the Government is to do that which they believe to be right, and especially to avoid doing that which they feel they cannot efficiently and firmly carry out. With regard to an enforced uniformity of action, each noble Lord who has spoken upon the subject has referred to the different modes in which the various Orders of the Privy Council have been carried out in the several counties of the kingdom. This diversity of practice I believe to be important evidence as to whether it is possible for the central authority beneficially to enforce uniformity and at once to establish an iron rule, and to carry it out in the different districts. It is said by the noble Duke (the Duke of Rutland), that foreign countries have successfully encountered the disease, and that it is disgraceful that we should have failed when Prussia and France have succeeded.
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I must ask the noble Duke to consider the great difference between this country and Prussia and Prance. I may mention that Austria entirely failed in stamping the disease out; while Prussia and Prance, dealing with it boldly, were eminently successful. It has been said that a week of the rule of Louis Napoleon was the only thing which could stop the progress of the disease in this country. But it must not be forgotten that Louis Napoleon possesses advantages not possessed by the constitutional Government of this country, it is impossible to carry out here the rule which is so successful abroad. The central power is so paramount in France that a man cannot cut down wood on his own estate without first communicating with the Minister of the Interior. Many persons, whether Legitimists, Orleanists, or Imperialists, complain that the action of local government is paralyzed by the very centralized system which has not been introduced by the Emperor of the French in particular, but which has been the ordinary system of the French Government for many years. But the consequence of that centralized system is that the organization is perfect. Government has its own prefects and under-prefects; its own mayors appointed by itself, Gens d'Armes and Gardes-Champêtres upon every field, the whole forming the most powerful Government that can be. In the same way in Prussia a system somewhat similar is adopted. The people are accustomed to it and like it, but every little matter forms the object of the solicitude of Government. If you are going down a hill in a light carriage you are obliged to put down the drag in a certain place, and to take it up at another. That system may be regarded in that country as a very perfect one, but would it be endured here for a day? Is it impossible for this question to be dealt with, and successfully dealt with, by our local governments? You have counties in England where the methods of encountering the disease have been perfectly successful, and yet where it would have been impossible for the Government to have successfully attempted action. Thus, in Aberdeenshire the local authorities have been able to deal with it. I am sorry to hear that the disease has once or twice attacked that county. It was quite curious, in one of the last cases, to see how nine or ten gentlemen, without any compulsory laws, took upon themselves to subscribe the necessary funds,

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and, by purchasing and killing the diseased cattle, entirely to stamp it out in a way which it would be impossible for a central Government to attempt. But the noble Duke complains of the different systems adopted in different counties. Now, the arrangements in the North Riding of Yorkshire are different from those in the West Riding, and I have seen a letter from the chairman of the committee of the latter division of the county, in which he gives the strongest possible opinion that the notion of sending the butcher to the ox would be most injurious, and would be most likely to propagate the disease, and to enable the farmer and the butcher to palm off bad meat upon the public. With respect to giving directions to the local authorities in boroughs, there is the case of Liverpool, where a difficulty arose from the market being out of the district of the borough; but in that case the disputing parties met, and I believe that the difficulty has been compromised. With regard to public opinion, I do not know how far public opinion goes in reference to this matter, but the debates in Parliament will be the best test of it. It has been said that the Government should have enforced uniform action from the beginning. Now in order to bring the question of uniformity of action before the justices, a circular was sent to the chairmen of quarter sessions on the 12th of October, asking them to give suggestions for the consideration of the Government; and in only two instances—in that of Northumberland and Bedfordshire—was a uniform course demanded, the general request being that the local authorities should have power to stop the removal of infected beasts and of manure. My Lords, I think it is some indication of the great difficulty of dealing with this subject, and of the great changes which have taken place in public opinion with respect to it, that there are such great differences of opinion between the very competent men who act on the Commission. I am told—I suppose I am at liberty to mention it—that another Report is already agreed to by the Commissioners appointed to consider the subject, which will contain most valuable information, but which will not offer any further suggestions as to the course which should be taken by Government—I suppose in consequence of our not having attended to their previous recommendations. The noble Lord (the Earl of Essex) has asked me what the Government intend doing
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in the matter. My reply is that at the earliest possible moment—on Monday next, I believe—it is intended that a Bill shall be introduced into the other House to make some alterations in the law, and making various changes which we think will be useful. I am quite sure that any Bill of this sort will be met in no party spirit, but will be treated as a measure to be adopted for the advantage of the country. I am sure that your Lordships will excuse my not anticipating the introduction of that Bill by making any statement as to its provisions.
THE EARL OF CARNARVON: My Lords, I watched for some time for some Member of the Government to rise to address your Lordships on the subject to which the noble Earl who has last spoken has just referred, and I am glad that at last some information has been presented to us. My noble Friend, however, is so successful in making the "worse" cause appear the "better," that I cannot refrain from offering a few remarks on his speech. Every noble Lord who has spoken, whether on this or the other side of the House, has agreed in condemning the course which Her Majesty's Government have taken on this subject. For my own part I am afraid I must endorse their opinions, and perhaps even go beyond what they have said; for while not going so far as to say that the Government are responsible for the introduction of this disease, I do say they are responsible for its spread and extension throughout the country. The noble Earl endeavoured to vindicate the Government on two points. He said that it would have been impossible for the Government to have acted differently in the months of July and August, when the disease first became known; and he also said it was impossible to establish uniformity of action throughout the country. Now, I will not take up the case at that early date; but I will show to your Lordships that a few months later the Government might and ought to have acted. There were then, at least, several alternatives open to them, the adoption of any of which would have brought the question to a more or less successful issue. When once the Government were made aware of the appalling state of circumstances revealed, they ought to have called Parliament together and taken its opinion on the matter. Failing Parliament being called together, they might have acted under those powers which it was thought were of sufficient force to meet the emer-

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gency; or, lastly, if they were not disposed to exercise their own responsibility, they should, in justice and pity to the country, have enabled the local bodies, to whom they had transferred those responsibilities, to act with effect. But in none of these points have the Government done their duty. The Report of the Commissioners was published in the middle of October, and when was Parliament called together? On the 6th of February —several days later than for years it had been customary to be assembled. This is trifling with the question. It is a mockery of the great interests which are suffering and almost perishing at this moment. But putting aside the question of calling together Parliament, suppose the Government had acted under the powers which belonged to them. The noble Earl (Earl Granville) says it was impossible for them to act as desired, because we had not a centralized Government; and the noble Earl quoted the examples of Austria, Prance, and Prussia, to show the power of action of centralized Governments. Prance and Austria might have so acted; but was Belgium a centralized Government? "Was it necessary to have an autocratic Government in order to close the ports of Ireland?" Was it necessary to have an autocracy in order to keep the county of Aberdeen free from disease? Why, the great agricultural societies have been earnestly pressing the Government to take action in this matter. But was it not in their power to stop or regulate the importation of diseased or doubtful cattle from infected countries? You know that importation had brought the disease; and, for anything you know, importation might be extending it. Yet importation was allowed to go on. Again, why was the Metropolitan Market allowed to remain open —that market which has been the curse of the country, which was not only itself an open centre of infection, but was distributing the disease in every direction. Again, you had inspection in your own hands—what did you do in that respect? Inspectors were appointed under such a system that inspection either resulted in the indiscriminate slaughter of every beast attacked, or became a mere idle form and ceremony. Inspectors were required to pass cattle at night, when they could not see them, and when it was absolutely impossible they could perform their duties. On this very ground we had at the same time inspectors appointed by the Privy Council Office,
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by the Metropolitan Market's Committee, and by the Middlesex magistrates. Some, too, of those inspectors were utterly ignorant of their duties. Some were tradesmen, shoemakers, even butchers; and so, partly from ignorance, partly from jealousy, partly from conflicting powers, facilities were given for the extension of the disease. A very moderate amount of foresight and regulation would have disposed of all this difficulty. But I go farther. I ask why did not the Government take measures to stimulate the ingenuity of private individuals by offering rewards for the discovery of a remedy for the disease? When, a few weeks ago, vaccination was thought to be one of the suitable remedies, there was a complete deficiency even of vaccine matter in London. I fully admit that the whole question of insurance is surrounded by the greatest possible difficulty; but we had at least a right to expect that in a letter of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, published in the autumn, incitements should not be held out to the illusory schemes of local insurances which have failed, and which will in nine cases out of ten fail. But if the Government were not disposed to act in this matter, they were at least bound to give sufficient powers to the local authorities to enable them to act. What did they do? They issued Orders in Council, but those Orders in Council are so contradictory and confused as to be of no use whatever. I would call attention to two of these Orders. One is dated the 23rd of November, which consolidated all previous Orders. It vested the powers henceforth in the hands of petty sessions. But, as every child might know, this immediately led to an extraordinary difference of action throughout the country, each bench acting on a separate principle, and such was the confusion introduced that it became impossible to know under what law any county, or even any part of a county, was governed. But the Government began to find out their mistake, and so they passed another Order, in which they rushed from one extreme to another—from the petty sessions to quarter sessions. But quarter sessions are a very unwieldly body, and there is the greatest difficulty in getting them to work. They are very well calculated to discuss business once in three months, but they are wholly unfit to deal with sudden emergencies. Without powers of delegation the greatest difficulty was experienced in work-

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ing the Orders in Council, the meetings being adjourned in many case3 from fortnight to fortnight, or die in diem. But the Government could not even draw up the Order without the grossest blunders. This Order in Council was dated the 3rd of January. The quarter sessions met without exception on the 1st or 2nd of January, and consequently, though they might discuss, they could not pass the resolutions, and gentlemen, after attending the quarter sessions from different parts, were obliged to separate without doing anything in respect to these resolutions. Was it fair for the Government to throw the country into all this confusion, and cause this unnecessary grievance? Was there no almanack in any department of the Privy Council to inform the noble Earl that by Act of Parliament all quarter sessions are to be held on a certain day, or was the Home Secretary really ignorant of the facts, or was he really indifferent to the whole matter? I should like to ask the Government the reason of the very unsatisfactory nature of these proceedings. The noble Earl says that a memorial in October was sent up to the Privy Council Office from one court of quarter sessions, pointing out the great danger attending the transmission of hides and manure. If there is one thing more than another that is dangerous and deleterious it is the free transmission of hides and manures, but the Government did not deal with it until the 20th of January last; and this, of which in October the noble Earl was warned as dangerous, was left utterly uncared for till that 20th of January. I will now ask the House to consider a question which will be very often asked—namely, "Where are we at this moment—what is the position in which we now stand?" Ever since the adoption of free trade the agriculture of the country has been mainly dependent on the breeding of stock; and can any reasonable man deny that in the destruction of stock a very great difficulty is imposed upon the farmer of England to maintain his solvency and to pay his way? Their cattle are perishing at the rate of 10,000 a week, and that rate is progressing under such circumstances that there is a great probability that our agriculture will be brought to an entire stop; but if it do not disappear the loss of stock which has been already sustained, and is being now sustained, must so dislocate the whole circle and machinery of agriculture as in a short time to bring it to a standstill. A noble
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Lord who spoke earlier in the evening (the Earl of Essex), pointed out very truly that this is a most critical time of the year. We shall have in a month or six weeks all the cattle now under cover turned out. At Lady Day there will be changes in tenancies, sales of produce, breeding and grazing difficulties, in fact, all sorts of movements and re-arrangements. Unless between this and then we succeed in striking down this disease we shall find the landlords on the eve of bankruptcy, and the tenants on the eve of ruin. I cannot conceive any calamity greater than that which at this moment threatens to overwhelm us; and what has Her Majesty's Government done to avert it? They have done absolutely nothing—nothing—nothing. I listened to all that fell from the noble Earl with great attention, but I could not trace the faintest indication in it of one single measure of practical utility. I do not pretend to know what were the motives of Her Majesty's Government, but I will state to the House what people in the country say. When they did not call Parliament together in the autumn, people say that the Government knew its own insecure and shaky position, and feared to meet Parliament. When they did not act themselves and use the power they were already possessed of, but threw the responsibility upon others, people say they feared the clamour which might arise in the great towns at any disturbance of the meat market—that they dreaded the displeasure of the consumer rather than remembered the duty of considering what were the best interests of the whole community. I will not say myself that these conjectures are true; but I think it is perfectly clear from what has taken place that the Government were exceedingly ignorant. I do entreat them to bring forward at once, and without delay, some measures which will meet the difficulty. There are three things to be done. First of all we have to deal with the question of importation. Depend upon it, the agriculturists will never stand having a drawn sword continually suspended over their heads in the shape of imported disease always ready to descend upon them. Importation must, therefore, either be regulated, or it must be stopped. Secondly, something must be done in the next few weeks to smite down the disease, and to bring it within manageable compass. God knows whether that is now possible

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or not, but it is the bounden duty of the Government to try. Thirdly, when the disease is checked some carefully constructed and efficient machinery must be devised by which we may eradicate it as often and as fast as it appears again; for I fear it will live in the country for years and years before it finally disappears. I was glad to hear the noble Earl say the Government would next week propose some Bill on this question; but I should hare been much better pleased if he had at once laid his proposition on the table. Every single hour of delay swells the mischief in an enormous degree, and I hope to have before the close of the debate some more satisfactory assurance on this point.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERCORN: My Lords, in the few observations I am about to make, I shall confine myself to one point only. I agree with the noble Mover and Seconder of the Address in their remarks upon the mischievous conspiracy which has unfortunately broken out in Ireland; and I think with them, that the measures adopted by the Lord Lieutenant have been marked with vigour and good sense. The dignified demeanour of the Judges, the courage and discernment displayed by the juries under circumstances of no ordinary difficulty, the prudent and courteous attitude of the counsel for the prosecution—and, indeed, for the defence also—have all tended to increase the dignity of the law in Ireland. But while I do not find fault, and feel rather inclined to give praise for what has happened since the issue of the Special Commission, I think the late Government have acted most unwisely in delaying these prosecutions so long. It is hardly fair to charge upon the present Government of Ireland the delays of its predecessor; but the Home Government is substantially the same, and therefore we can hardly acquit them altogether. The delay which postponed these prosecutions until after the general election was most unwise and most unfortunate. It may be invidious to inquire too closely what so suddenly aroused the Government from its slumbers to a sense of danger at the exact moment when the votes of the electors were all recorded at the general election; but, whatever the cause, the Government has incurred a deep responsibility for allowing the seeds of sedition to be sown broadcast before their eyes. With your permission, my Lords, I will state a few facts respecting this Fenian
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conspiracy, which are not generally known. In 1858–9 the Government of the noble Earl who sits near me (the Earl of Derby) had received information of the existence of the Phoenix Society, evidently the precursor and nursery of Fenianism. Some ten or twelve persons were then arrested, and one of them, named Sullivan, was sentenced to ten years' penal servitude. The others, owing to some informality in their trials, were re-committed, the presiding Judge thinking the evidence so strong against them that he refused to admit them to bail. In the interval before the next trial my noble Friend retired from office, and was succeeded by the late Government. The first act of Mr. Cardwell —who was appointed Secretary for Ireland under the new Administration—was to liberate all those persons, on the condition that they should plead guilty and be liberated on their recognizances, holding them liable at any time to be called up for judgment. This was done; but these prisoners made it a condition, before they would accept these terms, that their colleague, who had been sentenced to ten years' penal servitude, should also be released on the same terms. Of these men, three were named Donovan, Rosser, and Mulghany. What, I ask, has been the result of that misplaced leniency? Why, that the very men I have mentioned have been tried again and sentenced to ten years' penal servitude by the Commission which has recently held its sittings in Ireland, for the aggravated offence of which they have since been guilty; the Government having, with what I cannot help regarding as a total want of judgment, permitted them to remain in Dublin during the last four or five years hatching their plots, instead of having, as they might have done, according to the terms imposed in 1859, called them up for judgment. Again, the head of the conspirators—Shake—otherwise the notorious Stephens, who had absconded to avoid being convicted by my noble Friend's Government, was, notwithstanding that the Government were in possession of evidence in connection with him, which ought to have made them cautious, allowed to return to Ireland, and to lay the foundation of all those machinations which have almost broken out into open insurrection; while Donovan became the editor of The Irish People, and was allowed to propagate the most violent and seditious doctrines, although the Government had

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it in their power to deal with him, as I have just stated, at any moment. I blame, too, the Government for sanctioning such a demonstration as that of the funeral of M'Manus, one of the rebels in 1848, which furnished the occasion for the making of seditious speeches, and the display of colours and badges which were well known to be of a Fenian character. There cannot, I think, be the slightest doubt that such laxity of conduct as that to which I advert has induced the Fenians to imagine that the Government either did not care to interfere with their proceedings, or dared not interpose their authority. As to the ultimate result of that conspiracy, although I cannot absolve the Government from the charge of having by their remissness allowed it to grow to its present height, and although it has dealt a blow to the commercial credit, the security and the advancement of Ireland, which all the conciliatory measures which the present or any other Ministry may pass will fail for some time to come to obviate, yet I have no ultimate apprehension of the result, for I feel satisfied there is in that country an amount of loyalty by which the evil will be successfully combated.
EARL GREY: My Lords, I shall not follow the noble Earl who has just sat down into the subject with which he has dealt, not because I do not think it of the highest importance, but because I hope it will, on some future occasion, be brought seriously under our notice by Her Majesty's Government. There is, however, another subject, not certainly of greater importance, but of greater urgency, on which more than one noble Lord has spoken this evening, and on which I should like to make a few remarks. I allude to the cattle plague, for their conduct in respect to which the Government have been severely censured by more than one of the noble Lords who have preceded me. I do not think that in all respects this censure is deserved; because I believe that for some time after the disease broke out it would have been difficult, if not impossible, for them to adopt measures as stringent as the nature of the case would seem to demand. We were most of us at first—at least, I certainly was myself—but very imperfectly aware of the magnitude of the calamity, and up to the time when the Report of the Commission was issued, and even somewhat beyond that period, I have no serious fault to find with the course which the Government pursued.
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Since then, however, their conduct has not, in my opinion, been so decided as it ought to have been, nor do they appear to me to have been sufficiently alive to the great importance of the crisis. As was said by my noble Friend who spoke last but one (the Earl of Carnarvon), the breeding and feeding of cattle is now the groundwork of all improved agriculture. Ever since the repeal of the Corn Laws we have been pressing on the farmers the necessity of breeding more cattle, we have been continually telling them that to grow more and cheaper corn they must keep more stock, and this advice has been generally acted upon. To increase their cattle in order to increase the productiveness of their land has been the great object of the best farmers, and the destruction of their stock by such a scourge as the cattle plague would break down our whole present system of agriculture, and might occasion a loss which it would take half a century to repair. This calamity is one of the most fearful that can be imagined. It means the insolvency of the whole tenantry of England, the impoverishment of the landlords, and the destruction of English agriculture. Under these circumstances Her Majesty's Government, knowing what had been the experience of other countries—how all attempts to cure the disease had proved futile, and, on the other hand, how successful measures of prevention had been—was it not their duty to take preventive measures of the most stringent character? That they properly discharged their duty in leaving matters to the local authorities I, for one, utterly deny. The noble Earl spoke of following public opinion in this matter. I cannot admit any such excuse. It is the duty of the Government to lead, and not to follow public opinion. Public opinion, I say, my Lords, requires to be led by those who hold the high position of Her Majesty's Ministers—the direction should be given from above and not from below. The English people, and indeed all nations that are fit for freedom, are ever disposed to follow the guidance of their authorized leaders when they act with vigour and judgment, and it is when such qualities are wanting in its leaders that the country is dissatisfied. Nay more, I say that no Government is more likely to lose the confidence and support of a people than one which seeks to evade or to shift from itself responsibility. For my part, I think too highly of the English nation not to believe that they would be prepared to support

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their Government if it exhibited; promptitude and energy in a great emergency. But if Her Majesty's Ministers were not willing to act upon their own responsibility by adopting more stringent measures to stay the pestilence, how can they defend themselves for not having called Parliament together at an earlier period? During the winter months the movement of cattle from one place to another might have been entirely suspended, without inflicting any permanent injury or very heavy loss upon the country, and without occasioning an amount of inconvenience too great to be temporarily borne. [Earl GRANVILLE: Fat stock?] I purposely avoid entering into details, but if fat cattle were allowed once to go to market, they ought never to be allowed to return from it. In the winter months, I repeat, the inconvenience to which I have referred might be submitted to, and I believe that if Parliament had been called together early in November, and if the Government had explained to Parliament, and through Parliament to the country, what was required to meet the urgent necessities of the case, both Parliament and the country would have supported them in adopting such stringent measures as by this time might have checked this fatal scourge. But now the plague has been spreading; every week shows an increase over its predecessor in the extent of its ravages, and both the expense and the difficulty of stopping the pestilence would be tenfold greater than it would have been only two months ago. By neither taking effectual measures on their own authority, nor yet calling Parliament together and so allowing the country an opportunity of declaring its wish for the timely adoption of severe regulations, the Government have incurred a very grave responsibility; for, by not summoning Parliament it is not that they have done nothing; they have done a great deal, for they have deprived the country of the means of enforcing those regulations which I believe in Northumberland—I cannot so well speak for other counties — almost every man was of opinion ought to have been adopted to stay this dreadful disease. There the complaint is that during those months, when these regulations would have been effectual and comparatively but slightly inconvenient, next to nothing was done; and now when the spring is coming on, when all the fodder for cattle in the houses is nearly exhausted and the cattle must of necessity be put out to feed, the difficulty
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of stopping infection will be infinitely greater than before. If Parliament had met earlier much might have been done to check the ravages of the disease, by enabling counties to raise money by rates for the purpose of buying and destroying infected cattle. Tour Lordships are aware with how much success this has been done by means of a voluntary association in Aberdeenshire; but it was impossible, unless the law had given greater powers than now exist, that this example should have been generally followed by other counties. In a county situated like Aberdeenshire, which is not very populous, where the farms are generally large and the tenants a highly energetic and intelligent class of men, voluntary action and association in this matter were possible; but none of your Lordships who are acquainted with our English counties will believe that such a system would be practicable in them. Certainly it would not be practicable to the same extent here as in Aberdeenshire. For these reasons, I must say I think Her Majesty's Government are liable to severe censure for the course they have pursued. I am quite aware that their intentions were excellent, and that want of judgment and of vigour was their only fault; but in such a case as this, the lack of those qualities is about as serious a fault as a Government can have.
My Lords, I would next advert to the portion of the Speech from the Throne which refers to the subject of Parliamentary Reform. The Speech says—
"I have directed that information should be procured in reference to the rights of voting in the election of Members to serve in Parliament for counties, cities, and boroughs. When that information is complete, the attention of Parliament will be called to the result thus obtained, with a view to such improvements in the laws which regulate the rights of voting in the election of Members of the House of Commons as may tend to strengthen our free institutions and conduce to the public welfare."
My Lords, when I read those words, I cannot but infer that the reports which have been in circulation on this matter are really true—I mean the rumours that Her Majesty's Government intend to deal with the great question of Reform by introducing a Bill, the whole scope of which will be confined to a reduction of the franchise. My Lords, I need hardly tell you that for some time reports to this effect have been generally current, but hitherto I had refused to give them

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credit. Till I read the significant words of Her Majesty's Speech I could not believe, even now I can hardly believe, that my noble Friend opposite (Earl Russell), who was the organ of the Government of 1831, in bringing the great Reform Act before Parliament can have determined so utterly to repudiate the principles of their policy, and to act so diametrically in opposition to all that was then done as these words imply. Let me remind your Lordships that the extent of the changes proposed in the Reform Bill of 1831 surprised both its opponents and its friends. One of those who supported it declared that when he first heard the plan described in the House of Commons it "took away his breath," What was alleged to be the dangerous and needless extent of the changes proposed was the constant topic of the opponents of the measures. Against these attacks the Members of the Government defended themselves by contending that if Parliamentary Reform were dealt with at all it ought to be in such a manner as to settle the question. I can, at all events, speak for one with whom I was very nearly connected, and of whose part in that great transaction I have no small reason to be proud. I have been reading over his correspondence with the late King on this subject, and his remarks upon all the difficulties which beset the question, as well as the grounds upon which the Government recommended the measure, and I find the point upon which he most insisted, and the argument to which he continually returned were that it would have been in the highest degree dangerous to propose any plan of Reform not calculated to settle the question. The Members of his Government all concurred with him in the opinion that repeated meddling with the Constitution of the country was what was most to be guarded against, and that the predictions of the opponents of Reform that these changes would be but the stepping-stones to future innovations, could only be falsified by bringing forward a measure so complete that it would secure the good government of the country, and give such satisfaction to the great majority of the nation that no one would wish to disturb it. My noble Friend himself (Earl Russell), in that memorable debate in the other House of Parliament during the crisis that immediately preceded the passing of the Reform Bill, declared that he had found it to be the opinion of the highest
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authorities both among the opponents and the advocates of Reform, and in which he himself concurred—
"That if Reform was to be carried it ought to be founded on principle, and to be so framed if possible as to be as final a measure as legislation could carry into effect."
This was the great and fundamental principle of the policy of the Government of 1831, and the event has proved that it was a wise policy. It is now nearly thirty-four years since their great measure was carried, and in all its main provisions it remains unaltered to this day, and it has proved for a whole generation to be a settlement of the question. It has proved also to have been the means of promoting the good government of the country. I could not believe, till I was compelled to do so by the terms of the Speech, that my noble Friend, having this experience of its result, would abandon the wise and successful policy of which in 1831 and 1832 he was so distinguished an advocate, and adopt the very opposite policy of bringing forward a measure so obviously incomplete and imperfect that it is impossible it can be a settlement of the question, and must lead to further changes. My Lords, I had found it difficult to believe this, although I confess I had been alarmed, even before I knew the terms Her Majesty had been advised to use in her Speech, by the rumours which were current that my noble Friend meant to follow the advice publicly pressed upon him by a Member of the other House of Parliament, for whose judgment in this matter I confess I have by no means the same high respect that I feel for his character and for his ability. Your Lordships will doubtless recollect that some weeks ago Mr. Bright, in a speech at Rochdale, expressed a very strong opinion that the Government ought to bring in a Bill to deal with the question of the franchise only, and with the most remarkable candour he explained his reasons for recommending this course. He told his hearers that it was not to be thought this change would be sufficient. On the contrary, on this as on other occasions he has expressed his conviction that far more extensive changes in the constitution of the House of Commons are necessary—changes so extensive that they would go the full length of altering the whole existing character of the House of Commons, and make it a mere representation of the numerical majority of the population, assimilating it to

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the House of Representatives of the American Congress. There was no attempt to disguise his object, but he said it would be very unwise to attempt too much at once, because then he said they would be sure to be defeated; but, he added, that if they could induce the Government to introduce a Bill only to alter the franchise, and if the Government should carry the Bill with their support, they would obtain an improved position, and, to use his significant word, "an improved leverage" for further Parliamentary action. That is a significant word, "leverage," for it implies the overthrow of the whole existing system, so that there may be a clear ground for building up a new one. If I concurred with Mr. Bright as to the result to be aimed at, I should entirely concur with him as to the means to be used. If I thought it desirable to make the House of Commons a mere numerical representation of the majority, and not of all classes and interests, then I should say by all means adopt the course which Mr. Bright recommends; because, if such a sweeping change as he aims at were proposed openly and at once, it would not only be scouted by both Houses of Parliament, but scouted also by the nation. I believe that an overwhelming majority of the whole nation would reject at once measures of this kind if openly proposed. But I also know—and Mr. Bright seems to know likewise—from the experience of other countries, that nations may be brought by degrees to adopt plans which they would shrink from if pressed upon them in their full extent at once; that, in short, a fortress which defies capture by storm may very often be taken by sap. Differing altogether from Mr. Bright as to the object we ought to strive for, and believing that we ought to improve the present Constitution, and not to invent a new one, I think the first point we ought to insist upon in a Reform Bill is that it shall be one which the Ministers who propose it can conscientiously recommend to us as being calculated permanently to settle the question; and, therefore, a much larger measure would give me far less alarm than such a Bill as it is implied by the Speech that we may expect. Let me point out to my noble Friend that a Bill dealing with the franchise only never can be accepted as a settlement of the question by a sincere Reformer. Any measure intended to settle this question must deal with the present distribution of seats; be-
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cause this is the part of the existing system which stands most in need of amendment. The present franchise may be faulty, and I believe it is, but, at all events, it is not repugnant to reason and common sense. It may have the fault of not providing sufficiently for the representation of the working classes, but assuredly it by no means excludes them from all share of political power. In the Committee which your Lordships appointed in 1860, it was proved that in one, at least, of the present boroughs the working men formed the majority of the whole constituency. In others, particularly the manufacturing boroughs, the working men form a large portion of the voters, and that a much larger number of them might be in the possession of the franchise if they chose. It was proved that very many of them earn wages quite sufficient to enable them to live in £10 houses were it not, unfortunately, too common for them to spend their money in indulgencies it would be far better for them to forego, instead of in providing comfortable homes for their families. The law regulating the right of voting is also open to objections, on account of its complexity and the uncertainty of its operation, because it depends upon the interpretation of nice legal questions. Still it cannot be denied that under the provisions of the law as it stands Members are returned for our counties and boroughs, who, upon the whole, very fairly represent the opinions of the places where they are chosen. Nothing of the same kind can be said in favour of the existing distribution of seats. It rests upon no principle whatever, but is utterly arbitrary and capricious. The shares of political power conferred upon different constituencies have not the slightest relation either to their comparative numbers, wealth, or intelligence, their independence, or even their general character. You have the right of separate representation withheld from large and flourishing towns, whose inhabitants are distinguished for their independence and intelligence; and, on the other hand, you have that right enjoyed by decayed boroughs of 200 or 300 voters, and sometimes of even a smaller number, who possess no such qualifications. Some of these boroughs are to all intents and purposes nomination boroughs, some are much worse, being venal and utterly corrupt. Not only are the returns for these places governed by money, but by money employed in a manner which tends so

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directly to degrade and demoralize the electors that it would be almost better to put the seats up to public auction, and dispose of them to the highest bidders. My Lords, these are facts which I defy any man to disprove; and with these facts before us, can it for a moment be pretended that a Reform Bill would deserve its name if it omitted all reference to evils so gross, and make no effort to remove them? But a Reform Bill confined to the reduction of the franchise would increase these evils; for I have no hesitation in saying that in some of the smaller boroughs a reduction of the franchise would introduce corruption where it does not now exist. Such a Bill, therefore, would be a sham and a delusion unless meant only to serve, as suggested by Mr. Bright, as a stepping-stone towards further changes. I do not forget that, when a Reform Bill was last before the House of Commons, the small boroughs were ably defended by very high authorities. It was argued, that however objectionable they may be in principle, however gross some of the abuses to which they give rise, yet practically they provide for the entrance into the House of Commons of a class of Members who would otherwise be shut out, and who could not be excluded without serious detriment to the character of that Blouse, and to its fitness for the discharge of its duties. I am far from contending that these arguments are without weight, or that there is no truth in the statements on which they rest; but it does not follow, because there is a certain amount of good mixed up with the gross abuses which now prevail, that we ought contentedly to allow these abuses to flourish. The juster conclusion would seem to be that, to which we might also be led by other considerations, that the simple disfranchisement of the smaller boroughs would be unwise; that a good Reform Bill cannot be produced by merely attempting to tinker the existing system, but must be founded on a careful revision of that system as a whole; that we ought closely to examine its working, and decide upon the changes to be introduced in a spirit of reverence for what experience has proved to be good in our Constitution, but with courage to deal boldly with real abuses. A Reform of this kind, it may be said, would be so difficult to carry that it would be vain to attempt it. I do not deny that there would be difficulty in accomplishing a real Reform of Parliament; but in human affairs to attain great ob-
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jects, great difficulties must generally be encountered. Painful labour, earnest and anxious effort, seem to be the means appointed by Providence for accomplishing all that is truly good and valuable whether for men or for nations. It would, undoubtedly, be no easy task to devise and carry a Reform Bill really deserving the name—a Reform Bill not meant only to serve the temporary interests of a Ministry or a party, or to meet unreasonable and ill-considered demands from any part of the nation, but wisely calculated to promote the good of the whole and to strengthen the foundations of our Constitution. This would, indeed, be no easy task; but is that a reason for our allowing a scheme glaringly bad and imperfect to be carried? And I must add, that the circumstances of the present time afford an opportunity that ought not to be neglected for endeavouring to carry a really good Reform. The general prosperity and tranquillity of the country, and the absence of bitter party spirit, afford facilities such as we have never before enjoyed for a deliberate consideration of this most important subject. All parties, too, have admitted some Reform to be needed, and all are, I believe, sincerely anxious that the question should be settled without delay and in a satisfactory manner. If, therefore, proper means are adopted by Her Majesty's Ministers for arriving at the result we desire, I see no reason for despairing that a plan of Reform might be worked out, which would meet with the approval of the great majority of men of intelligence, and calm and sober judgment. But whatever hopes of this kind we may entertain would be dashed to the ground by the bringing forward of any ill-considered and partial measure by the Government. The bringing forward of such a measure would be only too sure again to rouse the spirit of faction and of political animosity, and to banish that calmness which is necessary for the satisfactory settlement of the question. I must, therefore, earnestly appeal to my noble Friend (Earl Russell) to save us from so great a calamity, even if to do so he should be compelled to postpone somewhat longer than he could wish bringing this subject under the consideration of Parliament. I am as anxious as he can be that the question should be settled without unnecessary delay, but it is a case in which the old proverb "the more haste the worse speed" will be found eminently true. A little time would be well spent in previous

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preparations, for the purpose of ensuring that the Reform Bill to be submitted to Parliament may be found well adapted to answer its purpose, and to gain the acceptance both of Parliament and of the nation. And in pressing these considerations upon Her Majesty's Ministers, allow me to remind them that, desirable as it is to settle the question of Reform, there is no pressing and immediate necessity for doing this at once, in order to apply a remedy to any crying evils so far as relates to the manner in which the House of Commons as now constituted discharges its high duties in the government of the country. We have not now to deal with such a state of things as we had in 1830. In 1830 it was justly imputed to the un-reformed House of Commons that it had become altogether unequal to the proper performance of its functions in the Constitution; that for many years it had grossly failed either truly to represent public opinion, or to secure to the nation the benefits of good government and wise legislation; that it had, on the contrary, become an instrument for maintaining grievous abuses and even the cause of their existence. This I repeat was justly said of the un-reformed House of Commons; it cannot with even a colour of justice be said of the reformed one, which successfully, and with great benefit to the nation, discharge the duties that belong to it. However desirable, therefore, a further Reform may be, a change is not now of the pressing and urgent necessity that it was five-and-thirty years ago. And, in support of this assertion, I will cite a witness of very high authority. In the speech at Rochdale to which I have already referred, Mr. Bright, in speaking of the Reform Act of 1832, desired his hearers
"To look to the great changes which have taken place since that stirring event, changes, all of which "he informed them" with scarcely any considerable exception, have been in favour of freedom, and in favour of the right and true interests of the great masses of our population."
And he then proceeded to show that greater security had thus been given to the Throne, and that
"The realm has been for years more tranquil, and for a longer period than at any period of our recorded history."
I presume that Mr. Bright would agree with me in thinking that the end of all government is the welfare of the people, and that a Reform of Parliament is only
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desirable as the means of arriving more surely at that end; but if so, when Mr. Bright himself informs us that the House of Commons, as now constituted under the Reform Act, has worked so well for the good of the people, we have a right to infer that there can be no such pressing necessity for again altering the arrangement which was made in 1832 as to warrant our introducing fresh changes, without most carefully examining them to ascertain whether they will indeed be improvements. I trust, therefore, we shall not be asked to adopt blindly an obviously imperfect measure, which can only be regarded as the first instalment of what used to be called in derision "bit- by-bit Reform." If any such proposal should unfortunately be made to us, I trust that we shall reject it; but, on the other hand, I hope we shall also avoid the equally dangerous mistake of refusing all Reform. After what has happened in the last few years, I am persuaded that the present Constitution of the House of Commons cannot be permanently maintained unaltered. Its faults are too real and too serious for this to be either possible or desirable; and an obstinate rejection of all Reform, while the question might be dealt with deliberately and calmly, will surely lead in the end to our being driven to adopt in haste dangerous if not fatal measures. As men of sense and judgment, we ought alike to avoid the mistakes of both extremes, and neither consent to rash and ill-considered changes, nor yet refuse our assent to those which are really required. Let us look our position fairly in the face, and having taken proper pains to ascertain what improvements are required in the Constitution, let us endeavour, with all our strength, to carry those improvements into effect. I do not argue in favour of more delay than is necessary for due deliberation in order to make sure that the steps we may decide upon taking are the right ones. And if for this purpose it should be necessary that the question of Parliamentary Reform should for a short time be postponed, there will be ample room for the exercise of all the energy and wisdom of Parliament in dealing with other and pressing subjects. The state of Ireland has been adverted to in Her Majesty's Speech, and requires early and grave consideration. The municipal Government of this great town, which every day more clearly shows to be in a state utterly unsatisfactory, ought to be remodelled. The question as to what

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measures ought to be taken for extending education, for checking pauperism, and saving a large part of our population from their present degraded condition, is one of the deepest interest, since no man can look at the evils physical as well as moral, of which the existence in our large cities has of late years been revealed, without feelings both of alarm and of shame. Then, too, the abuses in the employment of children, and the difficult questions as to the mutual relations of labourers and their employers, urgently demand the attention of Parliament. The subjects I have mentioned—and I might have increased the list—urgently require the intervention of Parliament, in order to correct evils which have arisen, and to ward off dangers that threaten us from the growth of the nation, and from that very increase of its wealth and population which we are apt to regard with such pride and satisfaction. The progress of legislation has not been in proportion to the growing wants of a country so rapidly advancing. In the last Parliament especially, legislation on these questions has been nearly a blank, and little has been done to meet the new wants of our fast changing social condition. Not that I believe the last Parliament under proper guidance would have been either unable or unwilling to deal with the great social questions I have mentioned—it was the Ministers of the Crown who were unable or unwilling to assume the lead which properly belongs to the position they hold. I trust that now with a new Administration, and a new Parliament, these questions will be more vigorously dealt with. I am sure that their neglect would be ill compensated by throwing on the table of the House of Commons a crude and undigested measure of Parliamentary Reform. In conclusion, let me assure my noble Friend that, though I may have spoken strongly, I have made these remarks in no spirit of hostility to his Administration. It is, on the contrary, my earnest desire to see that Administration succeed, and to be enabled to give it my humble support; but I am convinced that neither the present nor any other Ministers of the Crown can long continue to hold office, either with advantage to the country or with credit to themselves, unless they apply themselves with earnestness and vigour to the great social problems which now agitate the public mind. This opinion is entertained not only by myself but is shared by many others. I feel,
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therefore, that I am really acting a friendly part towards my noble Friend in warning him of the necessity of deeply considering these matters before he has yet finally pledged his Government to any definite course of action.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: My Lords, I am very sorry to be obliged to recall the attention of the House to the question of the cattle plague. Her Majesty's Government having announced their intention of bringing forward a measure on that subject—and as there is nothing in the Address to commit noble Lords to any opinion on the conduct of the Government—I must express my regret that the unanimity which is usually thought desirable in voting the Address in answer to the Speech from the Throne has not been preserved on the present occasion, and that the subject of the cattle plague has not been reserved for discussion on some future day. At the same time, it would be scarcely respectful to those noble Lords who have in succession and with some violence attacked the conduct of the Government were I not to say a few words upon the subject. The main charge against the Government is that they have not adopted an uniform system for the whole of the country. I do not believe that the noble Lord (Lord Feversham) will push his Amendment to a division; but I would urge upon noble Lords who have supported the Amendment by their remarks that they ought at least to be at one among themselves respecting the course which the Government should have adopted. I have listened attentively to all the speeches which have been made upon the subject by noble Lords this evening, and, as far as I can make out, each one advocates a different course of action. The noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Rutland) applied to this side of the House the word "ignorant." I do not complain of the use of the word, but I will say that the speech of the noble Duke shows a singular want of information. He was, however, loudly cheered by those around him. He said—what was perfectly true—that the Government did take one or two energetic measures; and he indicated what they were. He said they prohibited the importation of cattle to Ireland and to the West of Scotland, the Highlands being particularly mentioned. He seemed to think that it was due to some personal influence of mine that importation had been prohibited in

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Argyllshire, and he asked me to explain how this exceptional treatment had arisen. I will explain what course the Government have pursued. They proceeded on precisely the same principles in one place as in another — namely, that of giving to unanimous local interest and local opinion that weight and authority which is strictly their due. They gave to local opinion full weight in England, as they did in Ireland and in Scotland. But look at the total difference in the local cases. Ireland is exclusively an exporting country. If it imports at all, it is only a few bulls for the purpose of breeding. The people of Ireland came in a body, and asked the Government to issue an Order in Council prohibiting the import of cattle into Ireland. There was no great consuming population in that country, and no agricultural interest to oppose the demand; and, therefore, as the country was unanimous upon the subject, Government determined to grant their request. The importation of cattle into the West of Scotland was prohibited under precisely similar circumstances; with the exception of a few prize bulls no cattle are ever imported into that part of the country, neither is there a consuming population who would suffer by the prohibition. Another circumstance which affected both Ireland and the West of Scotland, but not the rest of the kingdom, was that by their geographical position it was easy to carry the prohibition into effect, whereas in other cases it would at all events be exceedingly difficult to do so. I do not know whether the noble Duke thinks that it is due to my influence with the Privy Council that there are only two roads into the county of Argyll from the Low Country, and that there are only two or three ports on its seaboard; but, at all events, it is exceedingly easy to prevent cattle being driven along the former, or landed at the latter. I admit that the districts so isolated were benefited, and I hope they will continue to be benefited by the precautions which have been adopted. The suggestion of the noble Duke, however, that a similar prohibition might have been extended to the whole of Great Britain, is of an entirely different nature. In England there are a large number of counties and of large cities interested in the importation of cattle, and it would have been most injurious and unjust if Government, in the first instance, had prohibited the importation of cattle
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into this country. Another point to which I wish to direct your Lordships' attention is, that although it may be quite possible that the plague reached this country from Europe, yet I do not think it has been proved that it came to us from any particular country. As has been already explained by the noble Earl (the President of the Council), before the disease was brought to the knowledge of the Government it had broken out in four or five distinct counties; and, although it may have been truly said that the infection was traced to the Metropolitan Market, yet no trace whatever exists to show how it was brought to London. With reference to "killing," instead of "curing," the noble Duke said that all attempts to cure the disease had failed, and that we must look to uniform and universal slaughter as the only remedy. But does the noble Duke mean to say that this was the opinion of the majority of the country in the earlier stages of the disease? Does the noble Duke not know that even last week propositions were made to cure infected animals? Does he not know that up to last week many people thought that a prevention of the disease was to be found in vaccination? Well, the Privy Council had issued an Order which gave to inspectors a compulsory power of slaughtering all infected animals—which was a very near approach to uniformity of action. The Order enabled every county which chose to adopt it to enter compulsorily any farmstead and do the work of slaughter. How was that measure received by the country? Why, I have no hesitation in saying that it was received in many parts of Scotland and England with positive indignation. At a meeting called in my own county several gentlemen expressed the greatest indignation at the power thus given to inspectors, and one gentleman, half in joke no doubt, but also half in earnest, said that if any inspector armed with such powers went into certain parts of the county it was a question whether he would ever come away again. This is the way in which any approach to uniformity of action was received, and even the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Winchilsea) himself has expressed great indignation at such a power having been given to inspectors. Well, but that was the earliest act of Government, and that was the way in which it was received. It was clear, therefore, that at that time the action of the Government was far ahead of the opinion of the public, as the latter were not aware of the

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extreme danger to be apprehended from the disease. The next step taken by Government was to appoint the Royal Commission, which recommended the stringent step of prohibiting the removal of cattle entirely, even from field to field, where they would have to traverse the public roads. The Government deliberated very seriously upon this matter; it was carefully discussed at three or four meetings of the Council; and all things considered, we came to the conclusion that the minority of the Commission, who did not agree in this recommendation, were in the right—that such a step at that time would not have been tolerated by public opinion, and that even if Government wished to adopt it we had not the machinery to carry it into effect. The county police are under the local authorities, and therefore, without the cooperation of the local authorities, the recommendation could not effectually be enforced. The truth is that even the majority of the Royal Commission who made the recommendation were not really unanimous among themselves, for a distinguished member of that majority (Dr. Lyon Playfair) subsequently informed the Government that, although he had concurred in the recommendation of the majority, yet he was bound to warn the Government that the mere stopping of the traffic would not be effectual of itself; that a mere localization of the cattle would not stamp out the disease unless every homestead were visited, all infected cattle were destroyed, and every cattle shed was carefully cleaned and ventilated, as otherwise, when the farmers commenced to turn their cattle out a few months after, the plague would break out again with equal violence. As to the system of killing the cattle on the farms and having no live markets, I may say that one of the earliest measures of Government was to enable local authorities to put a stop to fairs and markets; but it was found that irregular markets were still held, and these were also made subject to prohibition. But was it possible for the Government to stop absolutely all markets, and was the butcher always to go to the ox, instead of the ox to the butcher? This might answer in some instances; but for the supply of great cities it was utterly impossible to carry out such a system. In Liverpool, for instance, the other day the county magistrates attempted to put into effect an order stopping the market of that town, which is in a district outside the borough,
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and therefore subject to the jurisdiction of the county magistrates. What was the result? Why, that the town was in arms about it; the borough magistrates remonstrated strongly, and I believe some compromise has been come to on the subject. Now, only imagine the mischief which might result from the Government attempting a general prohibition of this kind over the whole country! Among other communications from different parts of the country, we have received a letter from the chairman of the board of quarter sessions of the West Riding of Yorkshire, in which he says that such a system would be most mischievous, as it would be absolutely impossible to distinguish whether the meat was infected or not after it was killed and dressed for the market. Therefore, as you must have great markets for large towns, the only protection is to direct that the cattle shall not leave the markets alive, but shall be killed at once. Again, it has been suggested by my noble Friend who spoke on the cross-bench (Earl Grey) that we should have adopted the particular system he found it convenient to establish in Northumberland. This is precisely what noble Lords seem to think who have objected to the course taken by the Government. They all appear to think that what suits their own county would suit the whole country. It is only those who know, as the Government must know, the enormously varying interests of different parts of the country, who can appreciate the absolute impossibility of an Order that shall prevail over the whole kingdom. Does my noble Friend think that the system which he introduced in Northumberland, and which he has been obliged to vary more than once, could have been imposed in Devonshire and Somersetshire which have had no disease at all? We have had some very hard words applied to us tonight. Ignorance and want of energy have been imputed to us. I do not wish to throw back those imputations on those who have used them against us; but I must say that noble Lords who indulge in such expressions can have very little appreciation of the difficulties with which the Government have had to deal. It is no light matter for the Government to interfere with the feeding of millions of the people. No man knows how it is done—and any man may well be cautious as to interfering with it. It is only done

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through the thousand channels which are formed by private interest and private enterprize. It is a vast organic system. It is not the Government that feeds the people, but the people who feed themselves; and you never know the effect that may be produced by shutting one single avenue of trade. Already, for example, it is very much to be feared that considerable injury has been done to the tanning and leather trade. I have no doubt that when the question comes to be fully discussed, which it cannot be when raised incidentally on the Address, noble Lords will be satisfied that, whether the Government might have done more or less, it was absolutely impossible to adopt any system of general prohibition over the whole country. A large part of England is still free from the disease; a still larger part of Scotland is free from it; and I was very glad to learn from my noble Friend the Earl of Dalhousie that in the county of Forfar the disease has become so much less virulent that, by the local treatment adopted, they are enabled to save 50 per cent of the cattle attacked. It was not by its geographical position alone that the county of Aberdeen was enabled to do what it has done. It was by the financial system adopted, which disclosed one of the most remarkable cases of skill and energy grappling successfully with evils of this kind. The system consists in this—they agreed to assess themselves voluntarily to the extent of 2d. in the pound, equally dividing the amount between the landlord and the tenant. The fund so raised was spent in paying two-thirds value for every infected beast killed by the committee; and three- fourths value for every clean beast killed by way of precaution. I do not see why similar measures should not be taken in every county in England, although, undoubtedly, there may be local difficulties. I repeat, my Lords, that I believe when the measure which will be proposed by the Government comes before you for consideration, your Lordships will be satisfied with it.
THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I can scarcely hope to see the practice adopted here which prevails in some neigh bouring countries, of considering an Address in answer to a Speech from the Throne paragraph by paragraph; but it must be admitted that, according to the practice we pursue, it is extremely difficult to enter on a fair discussion of the topics introduced in the Speech. Their
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multitude and variety render the discussion of each almost necessarily fragmentary. One noble Lord takes up one, another discusses another, and it is impossible to do justice to any in the sort of preliminary discussion which takes place on the Address in answer to the Speech from the Throne. In point of fact, one of the main objects answered by the two documents—the Speech and Address—is the opportunity they afford to Parliament and the people of hearing what has been done by the Government during the Parliamentary recess—although I must say that in that respect I do not think we have received much information from the Speech delivered on the present occasion. These discussions also offer to the advisers of the Crown an opportunity of intimating what are the measures they intend to propose to Parliament during the Session; and, on the other hand, the Government have an opportunity of hearing from various sides of the House what portions of their past conduct are likely to meet with animadversion, and perhaps censure, and, of course, with regard to other portions, what are likely to be approved by the country or Parliament. There is one other object answered by the Speech and the Address in answer to it, and that is, it affords an opportunity for the younger Members of your Lordships' House to make a trial of their strength, to make their first Parliamentary effort, and to hold out to the House the promise of future success or failure. I have now, my Lords, been a Member of your Lordships' House for more than twenty-two years, and I must say, without the slightest flattery to the two noble Lords who moved and seconded the Address, that I never heard an Address moved and seconded with greater ability and greater promise of future excellence than by the noble Marquess and the noble Earl who have performed that duty this evening. If I may make a distinction between them, I may be permitted more especially to congratulate the noble Earl (the Earl of Morley) on the singularly clear, lucid, straightforward manner in which he dealt with every topic to which he had to refer, upon the good taste by which all his observations were characterized, and more especially the becoming modesty with which they were delivered. These qualities must lead us to hope that we may often have the opportunity of hearing him express his sentiments as one of the most

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promising young Members of your Lordships' House. At an earlier period of the evening, and if your Lordships' attention had been less occupied, I might, perhaps, have commented at some length on the various paragraphs of Her Majesty's Speech—a Speech of more than usual length, and dealing with more than the usual number of subjects; but with respect to many of them we are promised papers which will supply us with more information than we now possess, and any attempt to discuss them in the absence of those papers would be necessarily very imperfect. There are topics again on which there will be no difference of opinion. There will be no difference of opinion as to the sincere congratulations we offer to Her Majesty on the approaching marriage of the Princess Helena, or on any matter which nearly concerns and interests Her Majesty. I am quite sure your Lordships will all be prepared to join in the hope expressed by Her Majesty that this union may tend to promote the happiness of Her Royal Highness. Again, we shall all sympathize with Her Majesty in the expression of Her regret at the loss which She and Her family and the whole of Europe have sustained in the recent death of the sagacious monarch who reigned for so many years over Belgium, who by his wisdom and his firmness held united in a feeling of common patriotism rival parties in that little kingdom, determined to protect and preserve its independence, and the influence of whose ability and prudence extended far beyond the limits of his own dominions, and produced no inconsiderable effect on the whole general policy of Europe. The loss of such a man as the late King of the Belgians is a general loss to Europe, and I only hope that his successor, animated by his example, may exhibit the same firmness, the same prudence, and the same discretion in dealing with conflicting elements, subjected to his sway, as his venerable father exhibited for so many years before him. I am glad to learn that our relations with all Foreign Powers continue to be friendly and satisfactory; and I am bound to believe the statement, when we are informed both by Her Majesty and the Government of France that the reciprocal visits of the French and English fleets to Cherbourg and Portsmouth have tended to establish permanent and friendly feelings between the two peoples. It is very probable that friendly relations may have been estab-
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lished amongst the officers of the two fleets; but I am at a loss to know how complimentary visits to Portsmouth and Cherbourg can prove that the two countries are "acting in friendly concert in the promotion of peace" which we have just been told has not been in the slightest degree ruffled. We all must concur in rejoicing that after four years of bloody warfare that sanguinary war has been put an end to in the now re-United States of America. I fully concur in that paragraph of the Answer to the Speech, which commends the wise and prudent manner in which, after the war had terminated, the ravages of civil war are sought to be repaired. That paragraph must more particularly apply to the conduct individually pursued by the President, who appears to be honestly seeking after the best mode of restoring the union of his country by a conciliatory and forbearing policy, and it is to the interest of the United States and of the world that in the wise and benevolent exercise of his authority he may not find himself swamped and overborne by violent passions not yet subsided, and by the tyranny of a majority which appears to exercise a baneful influence in the Congress. The termination of the slave trade must undoubtedly be a subject of congratulation; but I fear the abolition may be attended with very severe sufferings in consequence of the idleness and privations of the emancipated negroes, who have little knowledge as yet of the duties imposed upon them as free men, who take exaggerated views of the rights acquired by freedom, and who are likely to prove a source of considerable danger both to the States to which they belong and to the Government of the United States. I hope these feelings will subside, and that better knowledge will lead to more favourable results. At present, though the great object of the extinction of slavery is attained, yet it is attained through the medium of severe suffering and at the risk of no inconsiderable danger. I shall not offer any comment on the correspondence, not yet officially before the House, between the English Government and the United States with respect to injuries inflicted on American commerce by cruisers under the Confederate flag; but I must say that as far as I have seen the correspondence it has been conducted in a courteous, liberal, and honourable spirit, and I concur in the arguments by which the noble Earl opposite (Earl Russell) has supported the cause of

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this country, and the course pursued by the Government. I will not say a word on the subject of Brazil, the war between Spain and Chili, or the transactions in Japan. I shall rejoice to find that the treaties entered into will be productive of the very great commercial advantages which the noble Earl seems to anticipate. It is singular, however, that those persons who are now so ready to invite commercial treaties with France and also with Austria are the very men who for years and years were denouncing the whole system of commercial treaties, and proclaiming that we had only to consult what was best for our interests without considering what other countries could give us in return. That system is abandoned, but rather late, and only when our free trade measures had left us nothing to offer to other countries in return. Certainly there must be a very moderate appreciation of the benefits of free trade, if this country is to receive Austrian goods at a very low or nominal duty, while our goods are to pay in Austria 25 per cent, and, after a period, 20 per cent. However, the step is in the right direction, and though we do not get on so far as we wish, I suppose we must be thankful for small mercies. I now come, however, to a question upon the merits of which I shall not express any opinion whatever, because I agree with the noble Earl who seconded the Address (the Earl of Morley) that any such expression of opinion would, at the present moment, be premature. I refer to the deplorable events of which we have all heard with so much concern as occurring in the island of Jamaica. Unfortunately, a portion of the press of this country has taken upon itself to prejudge the question in the absence of all information, or with very imperfect and inadequate information. I am not pretending to say whether Mr. Eyre was justified in the measures of severity — undoubtedly, of great severity—which he felt called on to carry into effect; but this I will say—that Mr. Eyre's previous character does not lead one to suppose that he would lose his head from sudden infirmity, and if there is one point more prominent in his character than another it is, that in all cases where there was a mixture of races he stood forward as the advocate and protector of the inferior race. It is unlikely that a man of this description and character, who has had experience of colonial life, should have been so entirely misled as, without
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foundation, to believe that a dangerous rebellion was organized over the whole of the colony, which broke out prematurely in one district, and which, by the admission of the Colonial Secretary, was put a stop to by the vigour with which the authorities acted in Jamaica, while no such rebellion in reality existed. The whole question of Governor Eyre's conduct will turn on what was really the state of the colony. Was there in reality fair ground for the belief that a rebellion was about to break out, when rigorous measures would be measures of real mercy, though attended with loss of life? But, my Lords, I pronounce no opinion on this subject. The Government ought to have received despatches from Mr. Eyre, from time to time, with respect to the state of the island—he must have told them what he apprehended, and what was the opinion of the whole white population. We know, indeed, that the whole white population— they might have been under a delusion—but we know that they were unanimous in the belief that by his measures Mr. Eyre saved the colony of Jamaica. They may have been all wrong. I do not say they were not, and I want to receive the fullest information. But, with respect to the course pursued by the Government, I must say that that is a matter on which I am fully competent to form and express an opinion, and I must say that I do not think it has been either just or generous to the Governor of Jamaica. The position of the Governor has been one of serious responsibility and great danger; and at the moment when he believed that he had rendered great services to the country he has been suspended from his functions without reasons assigned. The course pursued towards him makes it but too painfully evident that the Government have lost their best head. Such a course—a course which prejudged and degraded a public servant without trial—would never have been adopted had Lord Palmerston still lived. We have his own recorded sentiments as to the duty of the Government towards their subordinates; and if Lord Palmerston committed any error at all it was that of going into the opposite extreme, and, rightly or wrongly, feeling it his duty to defend the conduct of those who acted under him. I saw the other day in a newspaper which was sent to me a quotation from a speech delivered by Lord Palmerston when the question was under discussion whether or not Sir John

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Bowring had precipitated us into an unjust war with China; and I recommend the noble Lord's words to the serious consideration of the Government—
"It is not enough," said Lord Palmerston, "to support the representative of the Crown when we are satisfied that he is right. Even if we believe that he took an unwise course we will not desert him so long as we are satisfied that he acted honestly, and with a conscientious desire to do his duty to the country." Now mark, my Lords. "The moment your policy takes a different direction you cease to deserve the confidence of honourable men. You may get people to serve you, and doubtless you will, but they will not be high-minded English gentlemen, such as it is necessary to have at the head of affairs in the great colonies and dependencies of this country."
I am far from denying that the statements which were received, imperfect though they were, did render it the duty of the Government to call on Governor Eyre for an explanation on those points in respect to which he appeared to have exceeded the law; but I do think that to send for a Governor from another colony—I am sorry to say I am afraid contrary to the original intention of the Government, whatever the reasons may be which led to the alteration of that intention—to supersede Mr. Eyre, who was to remain within the island—subject to the examination and control of that Governor and two of his colleagues, degraded in the eyes of the blacks, who would naturally be led to believe that they had obtained a signal triumph over a man whom they looked upon as an oppressor; while the whites would be under the impression that everything was being done in favour of the negro, the relative position of the two races being thus as it were changed—was a step neither just to Governor Eyre nor likely to be otherwise than most unfortunate in its effect upon the minds of both populations. I presume the noble Earl at the head of the Government has taken the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown as to the legality of the Commission which has been sent out to Jamaica; for, unless I have their opinion against mine, I should have great doubt as to that legality. I do not, of course, question the power of the Government to make any inquiries they may please in the colony, and to order rumours to be picked up here and there for their information; but I believe this Commission which has been sent out to try, as it were, Governor Eyre for high crimes and misdemeanors has not the power to compel a single witness to give evidence before it on oath; that Mr. Eyre
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might refuse to appear before it if he pleased, or recognize its authority in the slightest degree. What, therefore, have you done? Have you not been sending out on the authority of the Government a roving Commission to pick up evidence against him which might be used when, if that which is urged against him by those who take a fanatical view of his conduct in this country be true, he came to be placed upon his trial on a capital charge? I will only add upon this point that the Government have, in my opinion, taken a grave responsibility upon themselves in the course which they have adopted. My Lords, I next come to that serious calamity, the cattle plague; but I will not follow into any detail the various speakers who, with the exception of the President of the Council and the noble Duke opposite, have with so much unanimity expressed their dissatisfaction at the course which the Government have thought proper to pursue in reference to that subject. Even the language—the apologetic language—of Her Majesty's Ministers themselves has been, "We did not know how far public opinion or feeling would go along with us in dealing with the matter. We therefore fluctuated from one side to the other, and issued a series of contradictory enactments."
EARL GRANVILLE: I did not use that language.
THE EARL OF DERBY: Perhaps the noble Earl will tell me which are the precise words to which he objects.
EARL GRANVILLE: I did not say, speaking on behalf of the Government, as the noble Earl would seem to impute to me, that "we fluctuated from one side to the other, and issued a series of contradictory enactments."
THE EARL OF DERBY: I did not for a moment suppose that the noble Earl would give that character of himself and his Colleagues. What I intended to say was that, with the single exception of the noble Earl himself and the noble Duke beside him, there was an universal chorus of voices from both sides of the House, complaining that the course pursued by the Government with regard to the cattle plague was vacillating and unsatisfactory; that they were from first to last insensible of the magnitude of the evil; that they lagged behind the exigencies of the case; that they were endeavouring to see before acting how far public opinion would go along with them, and that they were

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throughout shirking the responsibility which belongs to the executive Government, and seeking to throw it on the shoulders of other persons, thus producing no uniformity of proceeding; but, on the contrary, every variety of system. [Earl GRANVILLE interposed an observation which was not audible.] All I can say is, that the language which the noble Earl imputes to me is absolute nonsense; but I do state that it appears to me that the Government have failed to realize, with regard to two questions, the important fact that, both as regards moral and physical evil, if prompt and vigorous measures be not applied at an early period, before evil had time to mature itself, it will spread abroad and gain force, until it will require great exertion to check and extinguish it. This observation I would apply not only to the cattle plague, but also to that which is known under the name of Fenianism in Ireland. For the way in which the latter evil has been dealt with I make no charge against any individual, still less against the present Irish Government. My noble Friend behind me (the Marquess of Aber-corn) has told your Lordships, with great truth, that in 1859 the Government, of which I had then the honour to be the head, succeeded in convicting one prisoner on a charge of treason-felony, and in establishing beyond a doubt the existence of a treasonable conspiracy in Ireland; and I may add that that excellent Judge, Baron Greene, in passing sentence of ten years' penal servitude on the person who had been convicted, informed him that had not the Crown taken a merciful view of the case and indicted him for treason-felony his duty would be to pass upon him sentence of death, inasmuch as his offence absolutely amounted to treason itself. "We succeeded in establishing the fact of a conspiracy, and there were several other prisoners at the same time against whom indictments had been found; but it was thought expedient by the Crown to postpone the consideration of those indictments until the following assizes. The question was accordingly brought before the Court of Queen's Bench as to whether the prisoners should be admitted to bail. No rule was, however, made on the subject, inasmuch as the Court was equally divided; but the Judges who were in favour of admitting the prisoners to bail just as strongly condemned the offence with which they were charged, and as fully admitted the
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clearness of the case against them, as those who took a contrary view upon the point immediately at issue. Well, what afterwards happened? The Government went out of office between the time of which I am speaking and the next assizes, and the first act of the new Government was to discharge every one of those indicted traitors on the simple condition that they should come up for judgment when called upon to do so. Nor was this all. The Crown entered into a bargain with the prisoners who pleaded guilty not only that they should not be visited with the consequences of their crime, but that the prisoner who had been actually convicted and sentenced to ten years' penal servitude should be released, and he was released without even application having been made to the Judge who tried him to ascertain whether there were any circumstances which in his opinion would justify his pardon. Well, my Lords, and who are the persons who were thus dealt with? Why, the very same who were brought up again for the same crime within the last few months, and who were from 1859 to 1865 allowed to mature their traitorous designs both at home and in America. They were the very same men! There is, again, the notorious Mr. Stephens, who was associated with Mr. Smith O'Brien in that foolish and paltry attempt at revolt in 1848, and who has ever since been carrying on the game of treason. This gentleman was in 1848 a principal agent; but, acting upon that instinct of self-preservation which seems never to have forsaken him, he left his comrades in the lurch and went abroad. He afterwards, however, returned to Ireland at the peril of being indicted for high treason. Then there is the notorious offender called Donovan, who has remained in Ireland plotting treason from 1863 to 1865, and who, as the registered proprietor of The Irish People, circulated under the very nose of the Castle 8,000 copies per week of a paper containing articles so detestably treasonable that Justice Keogh, in sentencing one of the prisoners brought before the late Commission, requested the reporters not to take any notice of the extracts from that paper he read in his defence. There were, I believe, no less than forty copies of The Irish People which were relied upon as overt acts of conspiracy, yet though its circulation extended from 1863 to 1865, it was not until after the late general election that a single step was taken to prose-

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cute the traitors by whom it was conducted. Mark, my Lords—for the entire space of two years this man Donovan, who had been conditionally pardoned by the Crown, and who might at any moment have been called up for judgment on a charge of treason-felony, was allowed unchecked, and with a full knowledge of the circumstances on the part of the Government—for during the whole time their spy was in his office—to go on disseminating treason, so that the credulous and but too easily deceived people of Ireland were led to believe that the authorities were not sincere in their desire to suppress the conspiracy. I do not say this to throw blame on the Government of that day. The prime offender was the right hon. Gentleman who is now Secretary of State for the Colonies, and who does not appear to be much more successful in that post than he was as Chief Secretary for Ireland. But the present Government of Ireland seem to have acted with moderation, temper, and firmness, and to have conducted these trials in a manner which reflects great credit upon them. I trust they will continue to pursue the same course, and not slacken their hand till there is a hope of the credulity of some of the humble classes in Ireland being dissipated and of peace and order being placed on a sound basis through the influence of the large majority who are better disposed. But the moral I wish to draw from these things is this:—Some of these unhappy men repudiated, with indignation, the idea that while they were plotting rebellion they were also countenancing assassination. The Irish race are impassioned, credulous, and easily led; and it has been one of the misfortunes of Ireland that for a long series of years past she has always had a succession of agitators lay and clerical constantly inflaming the minds of the people, constantly dwelling on their supposed wrongs, and constantly inciting them, not to acts of violence, but to constitutional agitation, and now these agitators find they have raised a Frankestein—their pupils, bettering their instruction, have broken out into open acts of insensate rebellion, and although I believe from my heart that none of these acts of violence are intended, or would be sanctioned or encouraged by those who lead them to the very brink of the abyss of crime, yet the moral to be drawn is that it is not safe to incite such an excitable
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people with incessant tales of their imagined oppression, and that the natural fruits of such a mischievous course will be such deeds as their advisers may little contemplate.
My Lords, in dealing with the single topic of the Speech from the Throne which it now remains for me to notice, I am not about to follow the example set by the noble Lord on the cross-bench, and to presume to offer any advice to Her Majesty's Government as to what course they should pursue. The question of Reform is one on which they will judge for themselves, and will bring forward at the proper moment, and on their own responsibility, such a measure as they may think it desirable to propose—and, if possible, to carry. But, observing that this question of Reform appears in the very last paragraph in the Royal Speech of twenty-nine paragraphs, I must venture to call to the recollection of the noble Earl (Earl Russell) what took place seven years ago, on the 3rd of February, 1859. On that occasion it did so happen that Reform was the subject of the last paragraph in a Queen's Speech of about half the length of the present one; and in reference to that circumstance Lord Palmerston, with good-humoured badinage, held this language—
"It is not an unusual practice to reserve the best and most important things for the last, and accordingly Her Majesty's Government, after having kept the House and the public on the tenterhooks of expectation through many long preceding paragraphs, at last come to the topic which is at present most exciting the attention of the public —namely, the subject of Parliamentary Reform. I take the last paragraph in the Speech to mean that Her Majesty's Government have a Bill ready prepared upon that subject, and that it is their intention, without the least delay, to lay it on the table of the House, in order that the House and the public may have an opportunity of considering its provisions. I think that is a proper course for them to pursue, and quite consistent with the usual course of procedure."—[3 Hansard, clii. 81.]
My right hon. Friend the then Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Disraeli) had the satisfaction of informing the noble Lord and the House that we had that Bill in readiness, that we were prepared to lay it on the table at a very early period, and that there was only one subject which pressed for more immediate consideration before it—namely, the large augmentation of the navy which was then in progress. But then the noble Earl opposite was not satisfied, and he sought rather to improve upon his leader's liveliness on that oc-

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casion. He accordingly delivered himself of the witticism which I am about to submit for your Lordships' consideration. He said—
"Sir, there is another subject which the right hon. Gentleman touched upon somewhat tenderly, and which appeared just at the end of the Speech from the Throne."
This was the gravamen of the charge against us—
"It certainly appears to me as if Her Majesty's Ministers had gone through all the topics upon which they thought Parliament would expect to be addressed, and that then some Member of the Cabinet said, 'Is there nothing forgotten? We have not left out Mexico, have we? No, there it is. There is also a passage about China and Japan. I cannot think of anything that is omitted.' But at last some ingenious Member of the Cabinet perhaps said, ' There is one subject forgotten—there is the Reform of Parliament; we must put that in.'"—[3 Hansard, clii. 100.]
Now, my Lords, all this was founded on the circumstance of Reform being the last paragraph in Her Majesty's Speech, and that occurring on the 3rd of February, our Bill was laid on the table on the 28th of the same month, and was then ready for discussion, the House having disposed of the question with regard to the navy. But the noble Earl said, with his usual humour—
"The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), 'Now fitted the halter, now traversed the cart, And often took leave, but deemed 10th to depart.'"
But earlier in his remarks, the noble Earl said—
"The right hon. Gentleman seemed as unwilling to touch on that subject (Reform) here as the Cabinet were in putting it into the Speech. Heaven knows how it has fallen into their charge!"
Well, be that as it may, we know at least how it was taken out of what a Member of the other House the other day, with great courtesy of expression, called our "dirty and unhallowed fingers." But I will tell the noble Earl how it was that it fell into our hands. Our predecessors had on more than four separate occasions pledged the faith of the Crown that such a measure should be submitted to Parliament; and because in endeavouring to carry that pledge into effect they had so completely bungled and mismanaged the whole question that they could come to no conclusion at all, that they left everything in confusion and the whole country in an agitation on the subject of Reform, we sought to put an end to that state of things by a fair, an honest, and a conscienciously-framed measure, proposed with an earnest intention to fulfil
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the solemn and repeated declarations made from the Throne, How that Bill was encountered, defeated, and got rid of perhaps the noble Earl has now forgotten;—I can assure him I have not. But in those remarks of his in 1859 which I have been quoting the noble Lord, addressing the House of Commons, went on to say—
"I do not see that there is any subject which the Government intend to bring forward that will furnish them with any excuse for delay in this matter. … If the Government have made up their minds to introduce a Reform Bill, let them lay it on the table. I will give no opinion on a measure of that kind until I see what it proposes to do. … There is every disposition in this House to wait their time; but they must not be putting off the subject. My hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Bright) I am afraid, will hardly be able to restrain his impatience. … They have given a pledge in this matter, and they are bound to perform it."—[3 Hansard, Clii. 102.]
That was the language of the noble Earl in 1859, in breathless haste calling for the introduction of a finished Reform Bill ready for discussion by Parliament. A month—one little month—was too much to give after the opening of the Session. It was the bounden duty, so he urged, of the Government to have their scheme ready, and, having it ready, to lay it before the Legislature at once. Well, the noble Earl is now at the head of the Government, and I do not gather that they have their measure ready. I infer from this speech that they have not yet made up their minds what their measure shall be. If the fact be otherwise, they certainly have done themselves great injustice, because they say that "inquiries are now going forward with reference to the right of voting in the election of Members to serve in Parliament," and that "when that information is complete the attention of Parliament will be called to the result thus obtained," &c. Now, my Lords, the Government are proceeding either without information, or with the intention of making the information they may procure square with their foregone conclusions; or, again, they may be gifted with a superhuman prescience which enables them to know infallibly beforehand what will be the precise result of these inquiries; whereas we poor ordinary mortals must be content to wait until all those promised statistics are laid before us which are to prove the wonderful skill and dexterity of the Government in framing a measure in anticipation of the information on which it is to be founded. Well, my Lords,

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imitating the wise caution of the noble Earl, I will express no opinion upon their measure until I have seen it. I hope it will be such a measure as I shall be able to support—that it will be a reasonable and satisfactory settlement of this grave and important question, which I believe it is desirable to settle, and settle once for all. And I promise the noble Earl another thing—that his Bill shall have fair play; that it shall not be thrust aside by any underhand methods; that there shall be no factious movement or combinations against it on the part of those who can combine for nothing else; that it shall be dealt with on its merits; that if we can approve of it we shall give it our cordial support; but that, on the other hand, if we disapprove of it and think it is imperfect, inadequate, or dangerous, and above all if we think it one leading to future agitations within a brief period of a perilous character, then with whatever means we may possess we shall do our best to throw it out by fair debate and honourable opposition.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, as the other topics raised in the debate have been sufficiently discussed, I will confine my observations to two points — the charge which the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) has made against me in regard to the Jamaica rebellion; and the other charge in reference to Parliamentary Reform. In reference to the first, it is to be borne in mind that the question for the consideration of Her Majesty's Government was not whether Governor Eyre was right in repressing the rebellion, but whether he was right in adopting the means he did to suppress it. It is one thing to support an officer who may have committed some errors of judgment; but when it comes to a question of the lives of 500 of the Queen's subjects, I do not think it right for us to say, "We do not care whether 500 persons have been put to death without necessity, but we will support the Governor whether he was right or wrong, and we care nothing about those persons' lives because they happen to be black." That, then, being the question before us, we determined that inquiry should be made. There was then the question whether the inquiry should be instituted with Governor Eyre at the head of the Government. Here was this obvious objection, that obviously the Governor could not maintain his authority when that authority would be
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shaken every day if the inquiry proceeded. There was also this obvious objection—that if Governor Eyre retained the supreme authority, however fairly the inquiry might have been conducted, no one would have believed that there would have been a fair inquiry, or that the truth would be permitted to be told when the person accused retained his high office. While, too, an apparent stigma was cast upon Governor Eyre, he would be liable to the imputation of suppressing the evidence, and not allowing it to go fairly before the public. For these reasons, it was determined that the head of the Commission should be supreme Governor of the island; and I venture to say that we could not have chosen a man of higher honour than Sir Henry Storks, or one more fitted to inspire respect, or to support and maintain authority in the island. We have associated with him Mr. Russell Gurney and Mr. Maule, and no two persons are more likely to take a correct view of the law of the case. With regard to one of the questions that has been raised by the noble Earl, we were perfectly aware when we appointed the Commission that the Commissioners could not take evidence upon oath. Directions, however, went out that the Legislature should be called together to enable the Commissioners to take evidence on oath, and Sir Henry Storks has called that Legislature together to give him authority to examine on oath. It was clear to us that it was impossible to refuse inquiry, from the case made out by Governor Eyre himself. It was equally impossible to have a satisfactory inquiry if he remained at the head of the island. Therefore, the course we took was the only proper course—the only justifiable course—that remained to us. With regard to the other question upon which the noble Earl has made some observations, I do not know that I have much further to say with respect to our measure of Reform, than that I expect it will be brought in quite as soon after the meeting of Parliament as was the case when the noble Earl brought in his measure. Some of the information has been very lately supplied, and there is a portion of it of which the correctness is doubted, and that has been sent back. I do not doubt, however, that by the end of the month the Government will be ready to propose their measure. The noble Earl has made some complaint against me as to the man-

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ner in which his own Bill was met, and that makes it necessary for me—though I should otherwise have postponed my remarks on this subject—to state that I entertained very grave and solid objections to the Bill, which made it impossible for me to agree to the second reading. My first objection to the noble Earl's Bill was that it took away a right that had been enjoyed, not only from the time of Henry VI., but from the very earliest time of our Parliamentary history—namely, the right of freeholders in cities and boroughs to vote for the counties in which they have their freeholds. That right was an essential part of the Constitution — so essential, in my opinion, that when the late Earl Grey told me it was very likely that a provision would be introduced in the House of Lords into the great Reform Bill, taking away from freeholders the right of voting for the counties they resided in and confining them to vote in boroughs, I told Earl Grey that if the Bill came down with that alteration I should consider it so vitiated that I would myself move in the House of Commons that the Reform Bill, with all its good and great provisions, should be rejected.
THE EARL OF DERBY: May I ask the noble Earl was this always his view as to the value and importance of retaining that provision?
EARL RUSSELL: There was another provision in the noble Earl's Bill which proposed to restore nomination boroughs. According to the Reform Act many of the smaller boroughs, in which there were ten or twelve voters, were enlarged by £10 voters, so that they contained 300, 400, or 500 electors, whereby a certain independence was introduced which enabled the constituencies to send men of their own opinions to Parliament. Now, the noble Earl's Bill had a provision by which freeholders of counties would have voted for those boroughs. Besides this, there was a further provision, which would have operated in some degree as a revival of the old nomination boroughs—the provision that these votes might be sent by post, so that any noble Lord or right hon. Gentleman in some distant country might send by post the votes of 300 or 400 tenants, who never went near the place, and thus carry the election. That struck me so much that I stated my objection to a Gentleman who eat near me when the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed his measure to the House of Commons, that
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these provisions, with the absence of any adequate extension of the franchise to persons occupying houses under £10 a year, made the Bill so bad that it was impossible to support it. The noble Earl, when first Minister of the Crown, introduced two measures—one a Budget imposing a very large tax upon houses, and another a measure for the Government of India. I consider they were both exceedingly bad measures, and both were rejected by Parliament. But much worse was the measure which the noble Earl introduced under the name of a Reform of Parliament. I objected to that Bill, and I stated my objections fully and fairly. That Bill was defeated by no underhand proceeding, but by open and fair opposition. As to the objections raised by the noble Earl to a measure of Reform, because it might be regarded in the light of a stepping-stone to other more extensive reforms, I have only to say that the late Mr. Hume said the same of the Bill of 1832, and voted for it on that ground. But though Mr. Hume said he intended to go much further than the Bill of 1832, that did not prevent the late Lord Grey and his Colleagues from carrying that important measure; nor should the fact of the same being said now prevent the present Parliament from carrying a measure commensurate with the requirements of the time.
VISCOUNT MELVILLEexpressed an opinion that the Government had treated Governor Eyre most harshly and ungraciously. By his energy and firmness Governor Eyre had saved the colony. The Secretary for the Colonies, it was true, had written a most proper letter to Jamaica, promising that the names of those who had so ably assisted Governor Eyre in suppressing the rebellion should be brought under the favourable notice of the Horse Guards. But what followed? The Governor had actually been rebuked for having adopted severe measures in the exercise of his duty. It was impossible to say what would be the result of this unworthy conduct on the part of the Government. It really seemed as if the noble Lord had turned to the right and left to see in what direction the several parties set their faces, and then to have acted as the policy for the moment dictated. It had been well said by a noble Lord who had preceded him, that if a late noble Lord had still been at the head of the Government the idea of censuring Governor Eyre would not have been entertained for a moment.

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That noble Lord would have spurned the proposal of recalling Governor Eyre. He would, on the contrary, have supported him to the last, and not even dreamt of pursuing a line of policy calculated to degrade the country in the eyes of the world. So far from censuring Governor Eyre, the Ministry should have tendered him the thanks of the country. It grieved him beyond measure to think that the Governor's conduct, under most trying and difficult circumstances, should now be subject to review by men who never knew what danger was.
Question put, "Whether the said words shall be there inserted?"—Resolved in the Negative.
Then the original Address was agreed to, and Ordered to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
The LORD REDESDALEappointed, Nemine Dissentiente, to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for this Session.
COMMITTEE FOR PRIVILEGES—Appointed.
SUB-COMMIITEE FOR THE JOURNALS— Appointed.
APPEAL COMMITTEE—Appointed.
House adjourned at a quarter past Eleven o'clock, till Thursday next, half past Four o'clock.