Sitting of 16 May 1865

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— County Courts Equitable Jurisdiction * [150] [Lords.]
Report—General Post Office (Additional Site) * [149].

ARMY-CONVERSION OF ENFIELD RIFLES.—QUESTION.
MR. H. H. VIVIANsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, If the Committee on Converting the Enfield Rifles into Breech Loaders had reported; and, if so, whether they had recommended any plan for the adoption of the Government; and whether it be true that an order has been given, or is about to be given, for the conversion of 60,000 rifles on the Mont-Storm principle?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, in reply, that the Report of the Ordnance Select Committee upon this subject had been received. That Report was not entirely favourable to any of the systems of conversion that had been submitted to the Committee. It was, how ever, possible, that as a temporary measure a certain number of Enfield rifles might be converted upon one of the systems, or a modification of Borne of them. The subject was still under consideration, and therefore it was not true that any order had been given for the conversion of 60,000 rifles upon the Mont-Storm or any other principle. As soon as any decision had been arrived at he would be prepared to state it to the House, and if required, to produce the Report of the Select Committee on the subject.

TRANSFER OF SINGAPORE.—QUESTION.
MR. MITCHELLsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, Whether, in the event of the transfer of Singapore from his Department to that of the Colonies, full provision will be made for the continued employment of naval officers holding command under him in the Straits of Malacca?
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, he was sorry to say that he did not understand the purport of the Question of the hon. Member. No naval officer, that he was aware of, held command at Singapore under the Government of India.
MR. MITCHELLsaid, the purport of his Question was this:—There were certain Officers commanding vessels under the control of the Indian Department at this moment in the Straits of Malacca, and their impression was that in the event of the transfer of Singapore to the Colonial Department, their services would be altogether dispensed with, and they would be replaced by officers of the Royal Navy.
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, he should be glad if the hon. Member would repeat his Question on a future day, after the Bill for transferring Singapore to the Colonial Department had been introduced.

WESTERN AFRICA—THE WAR AT LAGOS.—QUESTION.
LORD STANLEYsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether there is official confirmation of the report contained in yesterday's African intelligence, to the effect that a
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fresh war has broken out among the tribes near Lagos, and that British troops have taken part in the war; and, if so, whether such interference has taken place by order or with the permission of the British Government?
MR. CARDWELL, in reply, said, he had received an official confirmation of the report to which the noble Lord referred. It was not, however, that a new war had broken out among the tribes near Lagos, but, on the contrary, the termination of the war that had so long raged and had been attended by such disastrous consequences to the colony. It was true that British troops took part in the decisive action which terminated that war. That interference was not in consequence of any per mission or directions from the Home Government, as all their orders had been to the Governor to avoid any interference with the Native tribes. The Governor justified the step which he took upon this occasion upon the ground that the colony was threatened with invasion, and therefore his proceedings were but in self-defence. The accounts he had received led him (Mr. Cardwell) to believe that the affair had been conducted with very great skill and gallantry by an inferior force against a vastly superior force. The result bad been a decisive success without the loss of a single man of Her Majesty's troops, and he should have much pleasure in laying the papers on the table.

ENLARGEMENT OF THE BRITISH MUSEUM.—QUESTION.
MR. HENRY SEYMOURsaid, he had intended to put a Question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who he conceived would have been the proper person to give an answer upon the subject, but he was told that the matter fell within the Department of the First Commissioner of Works. He would therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman, When he will bring on his scheme for the enlargement of the British Museum; and if it will be before Members began to separate in anticipation of the General Election?
MR. COWPERsaid, in reply, that last year plans were prepared for the erection of buildings for the reception of the Natural History Collection of the British Museum. Other plans were also transmitted to the Trustees of the Museum for their consideration. He was now in communication with the Trustees upon the

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details of those plans, but nothing had as yet been finally determined upon. He was, therefore, not able to say when action would be taken upon those plans by the production of an Estimate of cost; but he could assure the hon. Gentleman that no unnecessary delay should occur in the preparation of that Estimate.
MR. HENRY SEYMOURsaid, he wished to know whether the scheme involved the removal of some of the departments of the British Museum to South Kensington?
MR. COWPERsaid, the plans were for the erection of a building to contain all the Natural History Collections upon ground already purchased at South Kensington, which property had been purchased with the view that such buildings should be erected. Therefore, these plans seemed to be the necessary sequence of the steps previously taken by the Government.
MR. GREGORYsaid, the House wanted to know whether an opportunity would be afforded to them of expressing an opinion upon the question whether the Natural History Collection should be removed to South Kensington. They wished to have a definite answer to the question whether the House of Commons would have an early opportunity of expressing their opinions upon this subject, or would the decision be deferred until lion. Gentlemen had gone back to their constituents?
MR. COWPERsaid, the question was rather vague as to time, because he did not know when the hon. Gentleman would visit his constituents. He could not fix any definite time, but the ordinary course of taking the sense of the House was by producing an Estimate of cost, which the House could accept or reject as it pleased. That Estimate would be produced as soon as the requisite preliminaries to the formation of it had been gone through. It could not be before. [An hon. MEMBER: Will it be this Session?] He should be unwilling to enter into the region of prophecy. He was at present in communication with the Trustees relative to the plan, and when it was finally agreed upon the Estimate would be laid on the table without a moment's delay on his part; but it certainly was asking too much to ask him to say when the plan would be decided on and the Estimate produced?
MR. AUGUSTUS SMITHsaid, he wished to know when the Bill would be ready to be laid on the table, because it was the Bill, not the Estimate, which would
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decide whether the collections were to be separated or not?
MR. COWPERsaid, the hon. Member had better give notice if he wanted to know about the Bill, for he was not in a position to say anything about it. All he could say was that when the Estimate was ready it would be laid on the table.

DR. LEONE LEVI'S "ANNALS OF BRITISH LEGISLATION."

  QUESTION.
  MR. J. R. YORKEsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, with reference to a Petition presented some time since by Dr. Leone Levi, Whether any conclusion has yet been arrived at by the Lords of the Treasury on the subject of granting a subsidy to a work published by him, entitled Annals of British Legislation?
  MR. F. PEEL, in reply, said, the conclusion the Treasury had come to was, that they ought not to propose a subsidy for this publication. If there were any public offices which desired a copy they would have authority to purchase them, but the Treasury was not prepared to purchase copies for distribution in the Colonies and Public Departments as was proposed in the Memorial.

  THE PATENT LAWS—THE HON. RICHARD BETHELL.—QUESTION.
  MR. COXsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Attorney General, Whether it is his intention to bring in a Bill this Session to amend the laws relating to Patents?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sir, a Bill has been in course of preparation with the full expectation of its being introduced this Session, but further consideration has rather added to the difficulties attendant on the subject, and I believe it will be hopeless to think of passing such a measure this Session. While on my legs I desire to add something to the answer I gave last night to the question put by the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Ferrand). Since then I have received a letter from Mr. Welch, the Registrar of the Leeds Court of Bankruptcy, which ought to have reached me yesterday, before I made my statement. Mr. Welch, in that letter, re quests me to make a statement which in one point would have added more complete ness to the answer which I then gave. With regard to himself, Mr. Welch states that he was unconditionally appointed by the Lord Chancellor in July last to the

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  office of Registrar of the Bankruptcy Court at Leeds, and that he was not, and has not since been in precarious health. With respect to Mr. Bethell (whom I understand to have been upon a private visit to Mr. Welch at Leeds, in February last), he says—
  "That Mr. Bethell did not attend the Leeds Court of Bankruptcy in February last, or at any other time; and that all the officials to whom he has spoken, deny that Mr. Bethell ever told any of them that he was appointed Registrar, or that they ever said so; and they add that they do not even know Mr. Bethell's personal appearance."
  I may add that I have seen a letter from Mr. Bethell himself, substantially to the same effect.

EAST INDIA—(CIVIL SERVICE EXAMINATION.)

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  MR. ARTHUR MILLSsaid, he rose to call attention to the existing Regulations for the Examination of Candidates for the Civil Service in India, and to move an Address for Copy of all Correspondence on the subject between the India Office and the Civil Service Commissioners which has not yet been laid before Parliament. The hon. Member said it was now about ten years since the system of competitive examination for the Indian Civil Service had been inaugurated—chiefly on the strength of a report of the late Lord Macaulay—and it had continued to prevail since with out material alteration. He did not, there fore, intend to go into the various questions which surrounded this subject, or to discuss the question, which had sometimes been raised, whether it was or was not an improvement on the system which it displaced. The only question he wished to put before the House was simply whether the present system was so constructed as to insure the best possible men for the Indian Civil Service, and at the same time not to interfere with the best interests of English education. The system was set forth in the Regulations now in force. The fourth Regulation laid down that the subjects in which the examination should be conducted should be not only English language, composition, literature, and history, including that of the laws and constitution, but also the language, literature, and history of Greece, Rome, France, Germany, and Italy; mathematics, pure and mixed; chemistry, electricity, and magnetism; natural history, geology, and mineralogy; moral philosophy, Sanscrit, and
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  Arabic. It would probably be admitted that the range of subjects was so vast that it was impossible for one man to deal with them. He was aware that any one who ventured to question the verbal inspiration of this Report of Lord Macaulay's would be looked upon as an educational Colenso; but still he thought it would be better that each candidate should be limited to three or four subjects which he might select for his examination. He would pro pose this change first of all in the interests of the Examiners—though he did not presume to pry into the mystery of marks—who would then be able to concentrate their attention on a more limited set of subjects, and better to test the qualities of the young men who were submitted to them. He also desired to make this change in the interests of the public service, and more particularly of the education of Eng land. Now, it was a remarkable fact that since this system had been established the proportion of candidates from Oxford and Cambridge had gradually diminished. This was manifestly a circumstance which should excite some attention and should be regarded with some regret. He found that Mr. Latham, Fellow and Tutor of Trinity Hall, who had written an able pamphlet on the subject, gave the statistics of the present system, as affecting the Universities, in these terms—
  "The following figures show the proportion of candidates from the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, taken together, to the whole number of those selected:—In 1855, 70 per cent furnished by Oxford and Cambridge; in 1856, 55 per cent; in 1857, 50 per cent; in 1858, 60 per cent; in 1859, 55 per cent; in 1860, 41·25 per cent; in 1861, 43·75 per cent; in 1862, 30·2 per cent; in 1863, 25 per cent. In 1864 the places of education of selected candidates were not given in the list published."
  The Head Master of one of our public schools wrote as follows:—
  "This school of 500 boys draws from just those strata in society which naturally supply candidates for the East India Company's service. Moreover, a great number of our boys are at this moment anxious to go to India; quite one third of my highest form of 30—fellows who have worked their way up the school, and nearly every one of whom will get scholarships at the University; nearly every one of them good at games, manly, and hardworking; would give anything to go, but, under the present system, they have no chance, or next to none. They must leave us to insure success, at sixteen or seventeen, just when school life is beginning to be most valuable; give up all idea of education in a good sense, and try for two or three years to cram as large a field of subjects as possible. If they do this, experience shows me that those who have good or fair recep-

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  tive powers will certainly succeed; if not, very able and hard-working fellows will as certainly fail. This, it might be said, is our fault, because we will not extend and widen our teaching, or because we do not teach well enough. To this I can only say that to our boys who are thinking of India we teach, or attempt to teach, the following subjects:—Greek, Latin, modern and ancient history, French, English literature, geology, and mineralogy. We allow them to give to English and French and one science four or five lessons a week which would otherwise go to classics. But this is not nearly enough, and even this distracts and injures them, and we feel that unless some change is made we must abandon the attempt to help our boys to secure this the most important prize that has been thrown open to the middle classes."
  The writer whose opinons he had just quoted, alluding especially to the examinations in English literature, spoke thus—
  "High marks were got by candidates who never read any English author except a manual, nor any history except a half-crown abridgment. We cannot teach in this way."
  Mr. Latham, speaking of the examinations in Oriental languages, especially Arabic, said—
  "The practical effect of the existence of this subject is to load men with another grammar and alphabet which they mean to carry for three months and forget as soon as possible. It in creases the great vice of the examination—namely, that it makes a man's mind like a town that has been abandoned while building, which was to have contained all sorts of grand edifices, but in which hardly a house has reached the first floor."
  Now, even if it were determined to retain on the list all the present subjects of examination, he (Mr. Arthur Mills) would at all events venture to suggest that each candidate should be limited to three or four, with an unrestricted power of selection, so that all candidates, whether they came from Scotland or Ireland, or from our English universities, or public schools, should have the option of submitting themselves to a test of their own choice, and that the present risks of curious interferences with their educational course might be avoided. There was another point to which he wished to call the attention of the Government. He thought they incurred a serious responsibility with respect to the successful candidates during the time which they spent in this country after passing an examination, and before being sent to India. As those young men were kept in London, and had no particular motive for hard work, it would be very desirable to have some sort of direct supervision over them. If the interval between the first and final examinations was to be two years, and no institution similar to Haileybury was to be re-
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  established, this question became the more serious. He would repeat that the only object he had in view was to obtain the best servants they could get for the Indian Civil Service and at the same time to do nothing to deteriorate the cause of education in England.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, a Copy of all Correspondence relative to the existing Regulations for the Examination of Candidates for the Civil Service in India, between the India Office and the Civil Service Commissioners, which has not yet been laid before Parliament."—(Mr. Arthur Mills.)
  MR. BAILLIE COCHRANEsaid, that he had on different occasions brought under the notice of the House the question of the Civil Service Examinations, not in reference to India only, but in connection with the administration of the Empire generally. For the last two or three years, however, he had not taken an active part in reference to the question, as he thought it would be better to wait and see how the system of Civil Service Examinations worked, and that they might have an opportunity of judging what were likely to be its results before he offered any comments upon it. But now that one important branch of the question had been brought before the House he might ask whether the information from India showed that the result had been satisfactory. He was sorry to say that the opinion of the public in India was that though the men lately appointed possessed great ability and information, they were deficient in many qualities which were absolutely necessary to form good officers and good men of business. His hon. Friend had touched upon the feeling displayed, which almost amounted to prejudice, throughout the papers presented to the House against University education, so far as the Civil Service was concerned; and it was certain that the number of University men appointed to that service was less than formerly. This change, too, had taken place when the standard of education in the Universities had been very much raised. He was sorry to find this was the case, as he believed that, independent of the learning which it insured, the mental discipline of the University gave that tone to the character of the men which was an esential quality in those filling responsible situations, and which could not be tested by any examination whatever. In support

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  of his allegation as to the feeling against University education, he read the following Extract from the Civil Service Report of 1864:—
  "It is not improbable that they will in some cases be reluctant to give up the pursuit of University distinction; but if well advised they will at once lay aside other subjects, in order that they may devote themselves the more assiduously to those in which they will be examined. It should be distinctly understood that in the further examination the requirements of Universities or Colleges will not be regarded as affording an excuse for I imperfect preparation. Each candidate in choosing his place of residence for the year should carefully consider what facilities will be afforded him for the prosecution of his studies."
  Surely, the whole tendency of that passage was to deprecate University education; and that, in his opinion, was to inflict great harm upon the public service. The officers in the Indian Civil Service would doubtless tell them that those young men who bad been lately appointed were men of considerable information, but he was afraid they did not possess those powers which fitted them to command and win the respect of others. There was a point connected with the ser vice of India which deserved the most careful consideration. It bad been frequently and truly stated that the service would greatly benefit if the sons of those who had long and faithfully served the country could be also received into the public service. Now, it was an undoubted fact that, in 1863, out of 189 appointments, seven only had fallen under the competitive system to the sons of officers in the army or navy or the Civil Service. It was no doubt desirable that the most competent persons should be selected for those appointments; but it was at the same time a hard thing for old public officers that no preference should be given to their children; and he believed it was also a thing detrimental to the public service. There was also, lie thought, some reason to complain of the practice at present adopted, of giving no advantage in one year to the best of the candidates who had failed in the year preceding, and establishing an entirely new examination. He should further say that he thought the questions put to the candidates were some times ridiculously abstruse. He was anxious not to throw ridicule upon the examinations, but he was afraid their standard was fixed too high. For instance, what necessity was there to ask the man who was going out to India the following questions:—
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  "Explain the titles—Iconoclastes, Colasterion, Tetrachordon, Smectymnuus, Histriomastix, Annus Mirabilis. What was Pope's opinion of Dry-den as a poet? Quote passages in support of your answer. Name the authors of the following works, and arrange them in order according to the date of their death:—Religio Medici; Utopia; The Battle of the Books; The Thistle and the Rose; Rasselas; The Davideis; The Essays of Elia; Madoc; The Rejected Addresses; and the plays Don Sebastian, Revenge, Cato, The Rehearsal."
  Again, the students were required to answer three of the following five questions:—
  "Give an account of the theory of placentation in plants, mentioning any cases which are anomalous. Describe the structure and homologies of the great lateral muscular masses of fishes, and explain the mode of progression of fishes. De scribe the structure of the eye in one of the following animals—birds, snails, or spiders. State the nature of the food, and trace the process of ingestion and assimilation in one of the following cases—rhizopod, whelk, toad, snipe. What is the doctrine of specific centres of organic life? State the leading arguments on either side."
  He did not cite these examples to cast ridicule upon the examinations, and still less upon the Examiners, who were un doubtedly men of the highest ability and accomplishments; but he thought that it would be much better that they should abstain from putting questions of this kind, which could only mislead the attention or misdirect the energies of candidates, and which could have no possible connection with the qualities required in a candidate for the public service of India. He would not read any more of these questions, be cause he was anxious that the system should be fairly tested. He desired again to pay his tribute of respect to those who had conducted these arduous examinations, but as the matter was before the House he could not abstain from saying that he thought it was necessary that the whole subject should be reviewed, and that it was most desirable that a Select Committee should be appointed, which might fairly consider what was the effect of these examinations. He would refer to only one case to show how extraordinarily the sys tem worked. It had been commonly re ported—he had no authentic information upon the subject—it had been commonly reported that a gentleman was appointed to an office in a great public Department, having passed what was considered an excellent examination, who, after a short time, was found to be perfectly incompetent to discharge the duties of his post. In answer to questions which were asked of

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  him by the Examiners, he called the Virgin Mary vir humanitatis; and translated the following sentence:—
  "Money was brought by a ship from New Zealand for one of the bankers of the town, and it had to be disinfected by being placed on a brazier," thus—" L'argent qu' ils apportent pour an de nos banquiers a étémis sur un chauderon."
  Speaking of a period of pestilence at Am sterdam, he rendered—
  "On craint que le mal se communique dans ces jours caniculaires," "He fears that the evil will increase by means of the canals."
  About the same time, another officer who had served in the Department for some time, and was a most zealous and meritorious public servant, was upon his promotion subjected to a second examination, and was rejected. It was true that he made some great blunders, but they were blunders which did not affect his efficiency in the particular branch of the public ser vice to which he was attached. For in stance, he stated that Lord Racon was the author of a treatise upon the French Revolution, and that Southey wrote a poem called The Doctor. This showed that candidates might upon literary questions fall into great errors and yet be most eligible and competent public servants. He, therefore, hoped that the Examiners would expunge from their examinations questions which could only tend to confuse and mislead candidates, and adopt such as would test their information upon subjects a know ledge of which would be required in the offices to which they sought to be appointed. In conclusion, he would only express his hope that next year a Select Committee would be appointed to consider the whole subject.
  MR. NEATEsaid, that this was not so much a question as to the mode of examination as to its principle, which de pended upon the formation of the scheme. He agreed with the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baillie Cochrane) who preceded him that the scheme for the examination of candidates for Civil Service appointments in India was of far too extensive and miscellaneous a character. The principle of the scheme ought to be to place the knowledge which was required of candidates for the Civil Service of India in harmony with the higher education of this country, including in that term, of course, both Scotland and Ireland. The existing scheme really went much beyond the general education of the higher classes. The maximum number of marks that could be obtained by the suc-
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  cessful candidate was 7,125, of which only 1,500 were assigned to proficiency in those subjects which were taught in the great schools of this country. It might be, and he thought it was, desirable that the education in our public schools should be consider ably extended; but the Indian Civil Service must take those schools as they were; and we must not take the improvement of our system of education from the Civil Service Examiners, but the Civil Service Examiners should select the candidates who were best acquainted with the subjects which were taught in our schools. It was of great importance to the preservation of our empire in India that the classes sent out there should be a sort of offshoot of, and in friendly correspondence with, the ruling classes of this country. The House would not suspect him of inclining too much to the aristocratic classes; but no man felt more strongly than he did the importance of possessing such an empire as India, and he thought it important that the ruling class there should be in correspondence with the ruling class here. They would all think and care very much more about India if they had acquaintances, friends, or connections there; and this country, as represented by its ruling classes, would think much less, care much less, and know much less about India than it did now if those to whom its government was to be committed were to be people coining, not from our great schools, but from odd corners of the world, having no tie or connection with those whom they met in that House and elsewhere, and only recommended by a peculiar knowledge of mine ralogy or some other abstruse science. As to how the scheme should be remodelled, that was rather a question for discussion between the Civil Service Commissioners and the Examiners than for debate in that House; and he would only say that when ever during the last thirty years he had had to decide between the merits of two candidates, he had not put to them any of those cram questions which the Examiners asked—not to test the knowledge of others, but to conceal their own ignorance—but required them to construe a plain passage of Latin. A man who understood horses could form a judgment by seeing them walk; but an ignorant man could tell nothing till they galloped. The Civil Ser vice Examiners always seemed to keep the candidates on full stretch in order to try their paces. These remarks applied to the first examination—that was, the

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  competitive examinations, the result of which was to decide who were to obtain nominations, those who obtained less than a certain number of marks being ineligible. But those who were successful in the first examination, had afterwards to pass a second, relating to subjects with which they would be more particularly concerned when they went to India, and they required a knowledge of the general principles of jurisprudence and of Indian and Mahommedan law The positions for which men had to qualify themselves were the collectorships of revenue, political appointments, and places connected with the administration of the law; this last being by far the most important. He thought the importance of political economy in the case of persons who would have to fill the position of collectors of revenue, political appointments in connection with the Government in India, or that of administrators of the law, was not so great that candidates should be required to possess a very intimate know ledge of it. Some of the greatest states men of this country—men who bad taken part in the promotion of great economic changes—had, he believed, but a very slight acquaintance with the minutiœ of that science. The great point, after all, was that young men obtaining appointments in the Civil Service in India should have a knowledge of law. That brought him to the question, what was the best place to fix upon as the residence of those candidates who had passed their first examination for the Indian Civil Service. Deeming it to be desirable that they should be as well informed as possible with respect to the institutions of their own country, he was of opinion that it was in London—in Westminster Hall and the subordinate coutts—rather than at Oxford or Cam bridge, that that information was to be acquired. No where could young men learn better the important lesson how the law should be administered than in our courts of justice; while, with the view to prevent them from being left to themselves after passing their examination, and to establish bonds of association between them, he could see no objection—save that which was based on the ground of economy—to the maintenance of some such institution as Haileybury. There was no reason, he might add, why young men after their final examination should not be placed under the superintendence of a College like King's College, with which the Civil Service Commissioners might communi-
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  cate, and from which they might receive reports as to their conduct and industry as manifested by their assiduity in attending lectures. At present the Commissioners abstained from recommending any set of teachers above another. He thought they had carried this almost to an absurd ex tent. He considered that it would be well that these young men should be placed with persons associated with the Civil Ser vice Commissioners, and who might report on their attendance and their proficiency. It would not do to confine the privilege to King's College. It might be extended to University College also, but if the existing institutions were not available a new college should be founded. The adoption of such a course would, he felt assured, be attended with considerable advantage.
  LORD STANLEY: I think my lion. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. A. Mills) is entitled to our thanks for having brought this subject before the House. No one is now, I believe, opposed to the principle of competitive examination for appointments in the Civil Service of India. Even my hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Mr. Baillie Cochrane), who was one of the most consistent opponents of the system, has expressed a wish that it should have a fair trial. It is, however, precisely because no one objects to a principle which we believe to be sound in itself that we ought to take all the more care that it does not suffer in popular opinion owing to mismanagement in detail. My hon. Friend behind me seems to be of opinion that the class of men seeking Indian appointments has become, socially speaking, lower than those who were formerly sent out; but I cannot gather from the information which I have obtained on the subject that that is the case. So far as I can form a judgment, I believe that the social position of those young men who go out now is pretty much what it has hitherto been; while there would appear to be a higher degree of average efficiency than before—though it is but fair to say that a certain number of those who have come in at the bottom of the list when the competition was not so severe did not reach a very high standard of efficiency. Again, it is said that these well-paid Indian places are not sufficiently valued to make the competition for them real and effectual. But the answer to that allegation is the simple fact that there have been about 450 vacancies during the last ten years, and that for these there have been about

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  1,300 candidates, or very nearly at the rate of three candidates for each place. It must at the same time be acknowledged that so far as Oxford and Cambridge are concerned the percentage of competitors for these appointments is considerably less than at first; nor do I think this fact is attributable to accident, because the percentage has from the commencement gone on steadily diminishing. The percentage was at first 70; it shortly after fell to 50, and it is now only a little above 25. There are, however, in my opinion, reasons for this falling off altogether independent of the character of the examination. In the first place, it is only within the last ten years that many tutorships, scholarships, and other appointments of various kinds have been open to free competition for the great mass of students at the two Universities—many of them having been previously in private patronage or at the disposal of a few persons. Those endowments draw off a great number of those who would otherwise compete for appointments in the Indian Civil Service. Then we must not leave out of sight the great tendency on the part of young men at the present day of the very class who formerly went out to India to enter into new professions, like that of civil engineering, or to go to Australia or some other colony, where they find a better climate than that of India, and a career which they prefer. We have to take into consideration, also, the enormous increase which has taken place in the wealth of the country during the last few years, and the consequent diminution of the relative, though not of the absolute, value of those Indian appointments. All these circumstances show a great change from the state of things even a few years ago. Again, there has been for some years a great dislike to go to a country where scenes of so deplorable a character have so recently taken place, and where the feeling between the Native and European population was of late notoriously bad. That feeling I believe to be fast passing away, but it must not be put out of view; hut every body must be aware that much higher emoluments than a man can obtain at home must be offered in order to induce him to leave this country to enter the Indian service. I myself have had some small experience of this fact, for I well remember—when I was Secretary of State for India—and I daresay my right hon. Friend opposite knows the
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  case to which I refer—that a legal appointment in India worth £5,000 or £6,000 a year was declined by a member of the English Bar who not long after wards accepted a County Court Judgeship in England. These circumstances are, I think, sufficient in themselves to explain why the competition for these appointments is not greater. Again, something has been said as to the period of probation, and perhaps I may be allowed to say a word on that subject. Reference has been made to the length of the interval elapsing between the period of examination and the time at which the Civil servant goes out. This, I am afraid, is a matter of necessity. The difficulty arises in this way. If the competition is to be in subjects especially and solely Indian, then you must limit the competition altogether to those who for a long course of years have prepared themselves for that particular competition, thereby excluding all those whose education has run in the ordinary channel. On the other hand, if the examination by which the competition is decided is to he on general subjects, and if, immediately afterwards, those who succeed are sent out to India without farther preparation, they will arrive there totally ignorant of all the special subjects in which knowledge is required for practical purposes. It was determined in 1858 that a year's interval should elapse between the competition and the sending out of the Civil servant to India, and that this interval should be devoted to the study of special Indian subjects, the knowledge obtained in which should be tested by an examination; and that to support the young civilian during that time without his being a burden upon his family an allowance, fixed at £100, should be made by the State. Since that time the Government of India have come to the determination greatly to shorten the period of probation that is required in India itself, and to set the young men to practical work immediately on their arrival in the country. I think it is well worth the while of the Government to deal liberally with young men in that position, because one of the greatest inducements to young men in a certain class of life to compete for these appointments is the knowledge that from the hour they succeed in their competition they cease at once to be a source of expense to their families. Many men would not compete at all if they believed that for three or four years, or even

  405
  for two years, after passing the examination they would continue to be a charge to their families. I should desire that the whole expense—I mean, of course, the whole reasonable expense—of supporting these young men should be borne by the State from the time they succeed in their competition to the time when they are sent out to India. Then the question of whether they should be maintained in a separate establishment devoted to that purpose is one requiring special consideration. They cannot be sent, as is sometimes pro posed, to either of the Universities—they ought to be kept in London. I agree with the hon. Member who spoke last that law is a most important branch of the subjects with which they will be called on to deal; and for the purpose of studying law attendance at the courts is essential. London, therefore, is the place where they must be maintained. By some it is thought desirable that they should be brought under one roof with a view to their better discipline. A com promise between the idea of a college and of a private residence might, I think, be suggested. Those whose parents live in London might fairly enough be allowed to live with them; those coming from a distance might probably be required to live together. I throw it out for consideration whether these candidates might not at least have the option of being lodged and maintained in an institution established, more or less, under Government authority. There is only one other subject remaining of those that have been touched upon, and that is the variety of subjects comprised in the examination. On that subject I quite agree with what has been written in the very able pamphlet more than once referred to. I think it possible that the examination is too diffused and spread over too many subjects. I can quite understand how that arose. I am perfectly sure that did not arise from any wish to set up this special teaching in op position to the ordinary teaching of public schools; but I can quite understand, when the object was to secure an examination that should be wide, general, and sifting, how it was thought expedient to give to every boy, wherever he may have been taught, and whatever he may have learned, the opportunity of utilizing anything in the shape of useful knowledge acquired by him, and to make it count in the examination. That was the principle; but, certainly it is possible we may have carried it
  406
  too far. Where a multitude of subjects are admitted, no doubt those who have a facility for learning a little of a great many things enjoy advantages over those who, with greater powers of concentration, do not possess the same power of familiarizing themselves with a variety of topics. But the evils complained of may be easily met, in either of two ways. One would be by limiting the number of the subjects them selves; and the other—which I think would be equally effective, and would not involve such a large change in the character of the examination—would be to require a rudimentary knowledge of any subject in which the candidate intends to pass, but not to allow that rudimentary knowledge, up to a certain point, to count for marks. The effect of such a rule would be that while those studying a subject, with a view of obtaining high marks, would be in no way discouraged, those who were getting up the beginnings of half-a-dozen different subjects with no intention of going on with any of them, would find that calculation rendered use less. I believe, in that way, without any considerable change of the general scheme, the evil complained of might be rectified. I will only say in conclusion, that nothing is more easy than to criticize an examination paper, and nothing more difficult than to set one.
  MR. HENRY SEYMOURsaid, he was afraid we did not get the best men under the present system. It was much to be regretted that the effect of the Civil Ser vice Examinations for India had not been to bring forward more men who had passed creditable examinations at Oxford and Cambridge, as it was originally supposed they would have done; whereas, on the contrary, the number from that class had of late years fallen off very considerably. The reasons brought forward to account for this disappointment were inadequate; for he did not believe that scholarships and tutorships at the Universities—the prospect of going to feed sheep in Australia, or of emigrating to any of the other colonies—possessed nearly the same attractions for young men in this country, as were exercised by the Indian Civil Ser vice. He believed that many eligible young men were deterred from competing for the posts which it offered by the nature of the examination instituted, which was conducted on principles diametrically op posed to those recognized in our great schools of learning. With regard to the

  407
  proposed college, he rejoiced that Hailey-bury had been abolished, and he thought it would be a great mistake ever to revive it. He thought it was a decided advantage that the successful candidates should pass two years in London after their examination. If young men could not be trusted to encounter the temptations of two years of English life, how were they fitted to be sent to India, there to be placed in responsible positions, and necessarily under much less supervision than they would be in England? The best probationary process that could exist was to give them enough to live upon at home for two years, and then to test at the end of that time what advance they had made in proficiency. There were four great functions to be discharged by the Civil servants of India. The first was that of the law, the second the collection of the revenue, the third the educational department, and the fourth the civil engineering department. It seemed to him to require serious consideration whether it would al ways be necessary to recruit the Indian Civil Service from England, and whether it might not be possible to place the un-covenanted civil servants and general civil servants upon the same footing. The question might be one of a proximate or a remote future, but we ought, at any rate, to be preparing for it; and one of the first steps taken should be to alter the present position of affairs with regard to the legal department. At present the Indian law department was managed partly by barristers from India and partly by the Civil servants. Now, he believed it would be a very great improvement if every man placed upon the judgment-seat in India was required, like our own Judges, to have practised in the courts. The establishment of a legal college and of a Bar in India itself would attract to it a vast number of persons whose adhesion would be very desirable. Nothing could have a more beneficial effect upon native society in India than a training to understand their own rights and the rights of others. He thought the hon. Gentleman opposite had done well in calling the attention of the House to the subject, as it was one which demanded serious and immediate consideration.
  MR. SMOLLETTsaid, he would not enter into the question of examination for the Civil Service of India, nor into its method. He wished to discuss a different matter altogether—namely, as to how this
  408
  competitive system of examination answered, and what its practical results were at this time. When he entered the service of the East India Company, a great many years ago, the system in the service was entirely a nomination one; but the nominee, when he obtained an appointment from a member of the Board of Directors, was not permitted to proceed to India without some qualification. He was required, in the first place, to have the elements of the education of a gentleman; and for that purpose he was compelled to appear before a Court of Examiners, who examined him in English composition, Greek and Latin, and arithmetic, as far as vulgar and decimal fractions. If the young gentleman could pass that ordeal he was then sent to Haileybury, where he had for two years to submit to the discipline of the place, and where he was required to pass through four examinations in various kinds of knowledge taught in that seminary. He (Mr. Smollett) did not say that those examinations were very stringent. They were quite the contrary. But at all events these regulations showed that some precautions were then taken to qualify young gentlemen for the situations it might be their lot to fill in India. Now, under that system a very excellent service was organized. That service had, at all events, a great advantage. It possessed a large amount of esprit de corps which was a very great advantage in a country, like India, where its members were frequently scattered over the country in twos and threes at a station, performing diverse duties, and ruling, it might be, in a somewhat arbitrary manner 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 of people. When men were thus brought to pull together, their duties were generally well performed; but when they were at variance and would not visit each other, intrigues and disorders were likely to ensue. He was not going to pass a panegyric on that service in connection with which he had passed some years of his life. He confessed he had obtained little distinction in it, because there were scores of per sons at that time possessing greater talents than himself. He remembered, however, how Lord William Bentinck spoke of that service, and there could be no better judge on the subject than that distinguished nobleman. When that noble Lord was on his way to assume the office of Governor General, he landed at Madras, where he had been previously employed and was

  409
  well-known, he received a congratulatory address from the people of that Presidency. The reply made on that occasion by Lord William Bentinck was to the effect that he knew India well, having been largely employed in various parts of it, and that having been largely engaged in political life, he had much opportunity of judging, he could conscientiously declare that no Prince or Potentate in Europe possessed a better or abler set of public servants than did at that time the Court of Directors of the East India Company. Well, the system that then prevailed, under which Civil servants were sent out to India, had entirely passed away. The Court of Directors had been themselves extinguished, and a different system had since then been introduced. He held in his hand a work which in a few words described what was the present system. The writer said—
  "The general administration of British India is conducted in its higher department by Europeans, who form what is designated the Covenanted Civil Service. Appointments therein may now be contended for by all the natural-born subjects of Her Majesty above eighteen and under twenty-three years of age, of sound health and good moral character. The elections are decided by the result of public examinations, the first of which is in English composition, the literature (including the laws and constitution of Britain), and history of England, Greece, Rome, France, Germany, and Italy; in mathematics, pure and mixed; in natural science (chemistry, electricity, magnetism, natural history, geology, and mineralogy); in moral science (logic, and mental, moral and political philosophy); and in the Sanscrit and Arabic languages and literature. Six months afterwards the candidates are subjected to a further examination in English composition, in the history and geography of India, and in the elements of the Bengalee or of the Hindoostani languages."
  Now that was the present system. What were the results which had come from it? He would admit frankly that he was prejudiced against this system when it was first introduced. Having been brought up in a different school, he disliked this great revolution suddenly introduced. He believed, and did still believe, that it would greatly destroy that esprit de corps of which he had just spoken, which had formerly existed in the Civil Service of India. Whilst fully sensible of the advantages of the former system, he was also aware that there were numerous disadvantages attending it. He knew the narrow field from which the Directors made their choice of persons to be sent out to India. Personally, he had no knowledge of the candidates now sent out to India; but from inquiries which
  410
  he had made from gentlemen fully capable of knowing the facts and of expressing an opinion upon them, he was informed the present class of men sent out to India were not popular there—they were disliked by the Natives, and they were men of whom it might be said, that whatever might be their acquirements in literature and the sciences generally, many of them were emphatically not gentlemen. There were no persons in the world better bred than an educated Native of India, and no one more appreciated gentlemanly manners and demeanour than the en lightened Natives of Hindustan. He (Mr. Smollett) had by chance put into his hand a work, which was no doubt known to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for India, as well as to many other Members of that House. It was entitled, Progress and Present State of India, and was written by Mr. Montgomery Martin. That gentleman had spent some years of his life in India, and knew the people well. The compilation, however, which he printed and published was not based upon his own authority or experience exclusively. It was said to be a manual of general use, based on official documents furnished by the authority of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for India. There was a chapter in it devoted to the Civil Service, and the results of the competitive system of examination for the Civil Service in India. He would read a short extract. Mr. Montgomery Martin said—
  "Formerly the patronage of the Covenanted Civil and Military Services was monopolized by a few families connected with the East India Company. Considering that the members sprang from the middle and higher classes, and that ample emoluments, high prizes, and an immense field for the development of talent was afforded them, it is remarkable how few rose above me diocrity."
  The writer went on to give the names of fifty or sixty gentleman of the Indian Civil Service who had attained to what he called celebrity, and then proceeded to say—
  "The abolition of monopoly, the open area for election, and the healthy principle of emulation, have infused new and vigorous blood into an effete system. In 1859–60 120 candidates were elected after severe competitive examinations for the Indian Civil Service; they have sprung from every class of English society; sons of druggists, ironmongers, tailors, upholsterers, drapers, undertakers, farmers, stewards, millers, butchers, printers have obtained appointments by the exercise of talents which they would not formerly have been permitted to bring inside the walls of Haileybury. And now, there is no official, from the Governor General down to the district officer, who has not

  411
  expressed his satisfaction with his competitive sub ordinates, with only a few exceptions. The superiority of the new men as industrious, conscientious, and able officers is as undoubted as the fear that they would prove mere book-worms has proved unfounded.'"
  Well, that was the result of the competitive system as testified to in an authentic statement based upon documents furnished by the Secretary of State for India him self. It appeared then, according to authentic authority, that this new system of unlimited and unrestricted competition had proved an unqualified success. They were told that the system which had become utterly effete under the old principle of nomination had been rendered fresh and vigorous by the infusion of democratic and plebeian blood which was introduced into it. Very possible the manners of the Service had a little deteriorated; but then their brains had improved. Under the authority of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for India he retracted his former views and adopted the new system as a success. If, however, it had been successful in India, why should it not be applied to the higher ranks of Civil servants in this country? He had heard that when the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn (Lord Stanley) was Secretary for India a competitive examination of 300 or 400 clerks took place for three or four vacancies as writers for India, and they were examined in meta physics and in moral and mental philosophy. Now that was a farce. All that was wanted in a clerk was character and a knowledge of English composition. The Civil Service of India was the greatest service in the world, and its emoluments began at a point at which those of the Queen's service left off in this country. An Indian Civil servant began with a salary of £600 a year, and might rise to £8,000 or £10,000. Why, he asked, was this unrestricted competitive system not applied to the diplomatic service; the term effete might well be applied to the diplomatic service, and the system that had succeeded so well as regarded Indian appointments might be applied to that service. Years ago the diplomatic was re-modelled; but Earl Russell had taken care not to give it a plebeian character, for he had made a rule that for two years the nominees should serve without fee, with the view, no doubt, of excluding the sons of bakers and butchers from the service. The noble Earl, no doubt, thought they would smell of the shop, and had no desire that such persons should
  412
  come between the wind and his nobility. As he had said, the competitive system might be applied to the higher grades of the Civil Service in this country—unless the right hon. Baronet opposite disclaimed its success in India, in which case the observations he had made would not be applicable.
  MR. GRANT DUFFafter congratulating the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire (Mr. Smollett) upon his conversion, and his accession to the thin ranks of the diplomatic reformers, pointed out that the present Examiners were drawn chiefly from among men who had highly distinguished themselves at the University; and by the natural bent of their minds, and by their training, they would be disposed to show as much favour as possible to the particular class of mind to which the hon. Gentleman opposite desired to give an artificial benefit in these examinations. In our highly organized state of society, where intellectual labour was so much subdivided, specialness was a much more important product than the mind which was capable of mere general adapt ability. That, however, was not the case in India; and there were many men who had done great things in India, and who had always maintained that they owed the power of doing them to the fact that they had been educated, not according to the received orthodox English rule, but on the more desultory scrambling system which prevailed fifty years ago, more than now, at the Scotch Universities. As British rule got more consolidated in India, there might not be so much want for that kind of man, but for some time to come there would be room enough for the small sprinkling who were now-a-days sent there.
  MR. HENNESSYmaintained that the last Return of the Civil Service Commissioners contradicted the assertion that they had laid down a system which was inconsistent with the system of education at the public schools and Universities. The two gentlemen who stood No. 1 and No. 2 in the list had been examined in English, Greek, Latin, French, German, Italian, and two Eastern languages; and, putting aside the two Eastern languages, these were just the subjects which were taught at our public schools and Universities. The same might be said of all the other gentle men who had passed successfully. It was a fact, too, that those who had succeeded had taken up a smaller number of subjects than the unsuccessful candidates. He

  413
  heartily agreed with what had been said by the hon. Gentleman near him, that the competitive system ought to be applied to the whole of our Civil Service.
  MR. KINNAIRDexpressed a hope that the claims of the Natives of India to be employed in the Civil Service of the country would not be overlooked. He had not heard a word in the debate with reference to them.
  MR. TORRENScalled the right hon. Baronet's attention to the inconvenience and hardships which had been occasioned by the recent alteration of the maximum age at which candidates could be examined from twenty-two to twenty-one years of age. He had recently received a letter from a gentleman who said that he had spent a largo sum of money in educating his son specially with a view to this Indian examination. His son had foregone collegiate honours with the same view, in the hope that there would be two chances of examination, one at twenty-one and the other at twenty-two; but now, at four months' notice, he found that he was deprived of one of these chances. No doubt there were many others in the same situation. He thought a longer period might be allowed to elapse between the time at which such changes were announced, and that at which they came into operation.
  SIR FREDERICK HEYGATEsaid, that he might state that the young man to whom his hon. Friend had alluded was a nephew of Sir John Lawrence. It was reasonable that notice should be given of any change in the rule as to age.
  SIR CHARLES WOOD: Sir, I shall refer very shortly to the various observations which have been made in the course of the de bate. I am rather surprised to find that my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Smollett) should suppose that the opinions which he quoted from Mr. Montgomery Martin's book are mine. The fact is, that those opinions are those of Mr. Montgomery Martin, and I entirely disclaim any responsibility for them, though Mr. Martin had recourse to official documents for his information. My noble Friend is mistaken also in respect to the nature of the examination which took place under the noble Lord who preceded me in the India Office (Lord Stanley). I think there were thirty vacancies when the noble Lord introduced that examination; and it was of a most elementary character, being what is commonly called an examination in reading, writing, and cyphering. I do not think it necessary to go into the ques-
  414
  tion of competition for the Indian Civil Service. That question has been settled for some years. The real question which the hon. Gentleman desires to raise is as to the existing examination—whether it shall be continued as it now stands, or shall be modified. An hon. Gentleman, as I under stand him, says that the examinations have been conducted as if it was rather the object to discourage those candidates who go up from the public schools and the Universities. Having gone through a public school and a University myself, and being most grateful for the education I received in those institutions, I should be the last man to look with disfavour on the examination and the admittance into the Indian service of candidates who had received their education in that way; but the hon. Gentleman must recollect that the principle on which the Indian Civil Service was thrown open was that it should be open to all British subjects of all parts of the world; that it was as much intended to admit the Native Indian, if he proved himself qualified, as the son of an English gentleman. And I am happy to say that a very intelligent Hindoo from Bengal has passed a successful examination, and now holds an appointment in the Indian Civil Service. I hope that that appointment will convince the Natives of India that such as show themselves qualified will be permitted to participate in the government of the country, and that consequently considerable impetus will be given to their desire to acquire improved education. I am sure that their doing so will strengthen our position in India, and therefore I think we should be acting unwisely, and not at all in accordance with the principle of those examinations, if we were to exclude from the subjects one of the learned languages of India. I can assure hon. Gentlemen that the principle on which the examinations were founded and the subjects were selected, was not to give the slightest preference to any one kind of education or any one kind of learning. The intention was that the subjects should be of so universal a character as that persons educated in England, Scotland, or Ireland—whether at a public or a private school—or in Benares, Bombay, or Calcutta, or in any other part of Her Majesty's dominions, should have an opportunity of presenting them selves for examination with the view of entering the Civil Service of India. It was intended that the examination should test not the candidate's knowledge in any par-

  415
  ticular subject, but his acquaintance with four or five, or some other number of subjects, so as to show his capacity, his general education, and what the hon. Gentleman calls his intellectual adaptability. It was believed that if the candidate was successful in such an examination, it would show his capability of acquiring that further knowledge which would render him fit for the service. The hon. Gentleman who introduced this subject seems to think that the examination, as now conducted is rather directed against the English Universities; but I think if hon. Members will look to the names of the Commissioners by which this system was recommended, they will see that they were men not likely to advocate anything which would have a tendency adverse to University education. It encluded Lord Macaulay, Lord Ashburton, the Rev. H. Melville, Chaplain of the East India Company, the Rev. B. Jowett, and Sir John Lefevre. Every one of them a University man—every one of them a distinguished University man. The system which they recommended has been pursued up to the present time, and those who con duct it are generally University men. I do not believe there is anything in the present system of examination which tends in the slightest degree to discourage the men from the Universities. I quite admit that the proportion of candidates from the English University has decreased; and I am sorry for it, because I think the education a man gets in an English University, independently of intellectual acquirements, is one eminently calculated to fit him for service in India. But I think the circumstances which the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) has mentioned sufficiently account for that circumstance. I have inquired the opinion of authorities at the University on the subject, and their opinion seems to be that the openings in this country for young men of position are so numerous and so constantly on the increase as to prevent any great desire on the part of young men from the University to proceed to India for the purpose of spending a large portion of their lives in the Civil Service. But there is another cause which the hon. Member seems to forget—namely, the great increase of other places of education in the United Kingdom. Places of education have been brought under the notice of the public, and have taken a permanent position which a few years ago had never been heard of. At the period to which I
  416
  refer a large proportion of the sons of persons in the better ranks of society went to one or other of the Universities; now there are a great number of establishments independently of the English, Scotch, and Irish Universities, in which young gentlemen receive an education which qualifies them to compete for Government appointments. Now, with reference to the system of cramming, my attention had been called to the circum stances which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, and I suggested to the Civil Service Commissioners whether it might not be possible to revise the subjects of examination. There is not the slightest doubt that, to some extent, the tendency of all competitive examinations is to encourage cramming; but, though in my time what is called a "crammer" or a "coach" was hardly known in the University, I believe that is not the case in modern days. The objection taken to the present system of examination is stated to be this—that, by the accumulation of marks for knowledge in many less important branches of learning of which candidates possess a very limited knowledge, a greater acquaintance with larger subjects is over borne. As far as I can test the objection by the result of the last examination, it does not seem to be well founded. Forty candidates were selected at that examination, and Sir Edward Ryan went over the marks with me. It turned out that if you took the marks for five subjects in addition to English, thirty-nine out of the forty would have been in exactly the places they held. This shows that in all probability the system which the hon. Member would recommend—that of confining the examination to five subjects—would have been totally ineffectual in producing a different result. By limiting still further the number of subjects, you would decrease your chance of securing men of general capacity; but I believe that by not allowing credit for any subject in which the marks were not above a certain number, the object which the hon. Member has in view might really be attained. I called the attention of the Commissioners to that point, and they re plied that by a more careful system of marking every desirable object can be attained, without deviating from the great principle that the examinations should be open to all. Then the hon. Gentleman has referred to the change which has been made with regard to the time which the candidates spend in this country. It

  417
  perfectly true that the great object which we wish to attain with reference to these young men is that they should acquire a thorough knowledge of the law—not merely the theoretical acquaintance with its principles which can be imparted in the lectures of a professor. Part of their duty as civil servants in India consists in the administration of the law. As Judges or Magistrates this knowledge will, of course, be indispensable, and even as collectors of Revenue it will be found necessary, be cause these officials have to decide upon revenue cases. There is hardly a position in India which can be occupied by one of the civil servants of the Crown where a knowledge of the law is not very essential. For that reason, therefore, we regard their attendance in our courts of law as being most necessary in order that they may sec practically how trials are conducted and how justice is administered. While I regret in many respects, the abolition of Haileybury College, I must admit that it was incompatible with the acquisition of that practical knowledge of the law to which I have referred. Formerly it was the custom for a young man to remain one year in London, and another in one of the Presidency towns in India; but it was found that this latter did them very little good. It has been consequently proposed that they shall henceforth spend the two years in London, and an allowance will be made to them on account of the expense to which they will thus be put. The question, no doubt, remains whether any establishment should be formed in the neighbourhood of London, and to this subject we have given a good deal of consideration. I consulted upon this point the Civil Service Commissioners, and they were, on the whole, indisposed to my taking the necessary steps for the formation of such an establishment. The Commissioners stated that a very large proportion of the candidates spent their time at home, Borne with their families and many with their relations, and that under this system; the moral superintendence was better than that which they would get by living in colleges. Upon this point I have entirely reserved my own opinion, because we shall see how the system works. If after experience we should deem it advisable to establish such a college in London we I shall not shrink from taking the necessary steps. In consequence of these changes it was found necessary to reduce the limit of age, especially as the Government of
  418
  India were strongly of opinion that the present high limit of the age at which civil servants were sent out to that country ought not to be extended. The reduction was therefore, made from twenty-two years of age to twenty-one. I have stated that as to the length of notice of the change, I have done only what was done on former occasions, and I can not admit that I possess that kind of vested interest in the prospective examinations which my hon. Friend claims for them. Our object is to go into the world and to get well educated young men wherever they are to be found, no matter where or in what manner their education has been acquired. We wish to obtain the best cultivated young men, whether they have devoted their time to Latin or Greek, to Sanscrit or Arabic, to French or German, or to any other department of knowledge, without requiring that that knowledge should have been imparted at a commercial school, a university, or any other particular establishment. We wish to have them well educated up to a certain point, because we find that that very education which they have acquired renders their after course more easy. I am there fore sorry that I cannot deal with the representations of my hon. Friend. I have, however, a pretty good suspicion of the party by whom he was applied to. With regard to the Motion of the hon. Gentle man, I may say that I have not the slightest objection to the production of the papers for which he asks. The only objection I have is, that it appears to me to be putting the House to an unnecessary expense to have them printed in a separate form, because the Report of the Civil Service Commissioners will be laid upon the table of the House in due course, and these papers will be found in the appendix to that Report.
  MR. VANSITTARTsaid, he could not quite agree with the right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles Wood) that the object of competitive examination was to throw the Indian Civil Service open to all classes, whatever their colour—it was to get the best educated men they could. Ht believed it was the opinion of Lord Macaulay if the Civil Service of India were thrown open to competitive examination, the result would be that the "flower of the educated youth of England would flock to the East." The reverse, however, had been the case, and for several reasons. The Indian Civil Service was not what it

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  had been, owing to the fact that the best prizes had been thrown open to briefless lawyers and other outsiders. Then again the candidates had no guarantee that their privileges, curtailed as they already had been, would not be still further shorn of the few good things still remaining. It was a well known fact that young civilians going to India, on learning the altered state of the service, declared that they had been deceived, and that if they had been aware of the manner in which the appointments, pay, retirements, and pensions had been cut down, they would never have left England at all. Undoubtedly, the first candidates under the competitive system were young men of a superior order; but a change for the worse had rapidly set in, and the young men selected in the present day could not compare with the Haileybury youths for esprit de corps or physique, and did not take anything like the same interest in the service. He held in his hand a pamphlet published upon the most excellent and practical authority, by Mr. W. Nassau Lees, L.L.D., Secretary of the Board of Examiners, Persian Translator to the Government of India, and Principal of the Mahommedan College. The writer of that pamphlet condemned the present system and ridiculed the idea of the candidates being obliged to obtain a certain number of marks, because he said that—
  "It only lead to young men rushing over to France or to Germany in order that by that means they might acquire a knowledge of the French or German languages, and thus obtain 100 or 150 more marks for their score, which would be of no practical use to them in India."
  Dr. Lees was also of opinion that the education of Indian Civil Service officers should be commenced and completed in England, to avoid the necessity for their being detained for several months at the capitals of the Indian Presidencies to attend lectures. Mr. Lees further thought that the establishment in England of a college similar to Hailey bury would confer a great boon upon the ser vice, and would reduce the Estimates for the Indian Budget by £30,000 per annum, as compared with the present system. He (Mr. Vansittart) did not think the competitive system had answered the expectations of Lord Macaulay and others who had advocated its introduction. Compared with what it was formerly, the service at present was very indifferent; and that was one of the explanations of the difficulty there was in persuading University and other men of superior talents to enter it.
  MR. ARTHUR MILLS, in reply, said, he did not wish to reduce the number of subjects of examination; but he thought it would be sufficient to examine the candidates for the service on three or four branches of knowledge, irrespective of their place of education. He also thought that the time for the candidates to go out should be fixed, and not subject to arbitrary change. After the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the papers would be published in the appendix of this years' Report, he did not wish to press his Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

BANKRUPTCY ACT (1861).

  RESOLUTION.
  MR. MOFFATTsaid, he rose to call attention to the Report of the Select Committee on the Bankruptcy Act of 1861 and the existing state of the Laws in regard to Debtor and Creditor, and to move—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, the Report of the Select Committee on the Bankruptcy Act of 1861 deserves the prompt and serious consideration of Her Majesty's Government."
  The subject, he said, was a most disagree able one to all parties—to the debtor who had cheated his creditors, to the creditors who had lost their money, and especially so to that House, seeing that upon the Legislature rested the responsibility of the present system by which fraud was made so easy and profitable to those who chose to take advantage of the Act. Without going back to the time of the Tudors or the early Georges, he would give a brief outline of the history of bankruptcy during the latter part of the present century, which would be found exceedingly instructive. Forty years ago bankruptcy cases were under the control of that somewhat slow and expensive tribunal the Court of Chancery, while the creditors managed, and in many cases mismanaged, affairs for themselves, because the assignees were under no official control from the Court. About that time a great bankruptcy re form measure was brought forward by Lord Brougham. That measure, instead of proving a great success, worked most unsatisfactorily. The great alteration was then made, and Commissioners and official assignees were appointed, and thus the matter remained for twenty years. During that period matters went from bad to worse, and it was found that official assignees were at least as expert as creditors' assig-

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  nees were in abstracting funds from the bankrupt's estates. To show how unsatisfactory Lord Brougham's Act was, he need only state that during twenty years there were no less than eleven Acts of Parliament passed for the purpose of amending it. Eventually, there came the Consolidation Act of 1849, which, again, had rendered matters worse than they were before. Then came the Act of 1861, which had done a great deal more harm than good. That Act expunged the distinction between the trading and the non-trading communities. The results were somewhat start ling, for the trading community had been, in consequence of the manifold evils of the system, in a great degree prevented from availing themselves of the benefits of the Bankruptcy Court. Owing to the exertions of the Lord Chancellor, an inquiry had been instituted into the way in which the surplus fees in bankruptcy were dealt with. They should be paid into the Bankruptcy Fee Fund. The result of that inquiry was that, while in 1862—during which year there was no inquiry—there was only the sum of £1,300 paid in; it increased in 1863, when there was inquiry, to £13,620, and in 1864 to £45,158. The result of the new system was that in this great country the Bankruptcy Court during the year ending the 11th of October, 1864, collected only £677,536, on which the official charges amounted to £140,000; leaving to the creditors under all the bankruptcies in the United Kingdom £530,000. In 1843, when the commerce of the country was not half its present amount, there were 1,112 bankruptcies, and the sum collected was £1,067,976. Last year there were 7,200 bankruptcies, and the amount collected and divided among the creditors was £530,000. And if they analyzed the list of bankruptcies for last year, they would find that out of the 7,200 bankrupts, 6,600 were made bankrupts on their own petition, and only 600 at the instance of their creditors. It would further appear that of those made bankrupts on their own petition, 5,324 paid no dividend at all, and 848 a dividend under 2s. 6d. in the pound; 5,335 bankrupts got their discharge, and only 80 out of 7,224 were refused their discharge—a proof either of marvelous laxity in the law, or of wonderful honesty in the bankrupts. The present position was practically this—Wherever there was an estate with any prospect of a dividend the creditors agreed to any course, compromise, composition,
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  or assignment, rather than go to the Court of Bankruptcy. The natural consequence was that every debtor knew perfectly well he had an instrument in his hand by which he could cheat his creditors, and the only question with him was what was the smallest amount his creditors would be willing to take in lieu of 20s. in the pound. That was done in two ways, both of which were inaugurated by the Act of 1861, by composition or assignment. Composition the creditors generally preferred. To give a most striking proof of how this system of allowing debtors to evade their debts was telling on the mercantile interests of the country he might state that in 1863 the number of compositions was 640, while in 1864 the number was 1,348. In the last three months of 1864 there were 302 registered deeds compounding for less than 5s. in the pound, and of these 244, or nearly five sixths, were under 3s. in the pound Some were as low as 3d., 6d., and 8d. in the pound. Anything was taken rather than go through the Bankruptcy Court. The great mass of the insolvency of the country was settled under assignments. There was scarcely a week passed without the appearance in the "Money Article" of the London newspapers of intimations that such a firm, extensively engaged in business, perhaps only a few months old, had suspended payment, and they had placed their affairs in the hands of an accountant—a friendly accountant, or their own solicitor. The accountant or solicitor said to the creditors, Wait; we shall inspect the books and tell you what will happen. The creditors were kept at bay. The friendly solicitor or accountant—many of whom were firms of the highest respectability—took the books as they found them, and never inquired be low the surface of the accounts. Any indiscretion, any malversation, any amount of abstraction from the assets of the estate might pass undiscovered. The creditors had no means of knowing it. They were called together, and simply told the estate would pay 7s. or 10 s. in the pound; there was an assignment, a composition, and there an end of the transaction. The result was generally a serious disappointment as between the estimate first made, and the amount paid under the deed. It was not pleasant to mention instances, but he knew two or three great failures within the last eight months where the accounts looked as if there would be 20 s. to every

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  creditor, and where the debts at the pre sent time might be bought for 2s. or 3s. per pound. The insolvents passed in this way without any censure, and without the slightest difficulty or trouble to them selves. In many instances the insolvent made a great profit by this mode of settlement. It was a disgrace to the Legislature and a discredit to the country that such a state of law should exist. It did exist to an extent the House would hardly believe. He had obtained a return of the deeds registered in the Court of Bankruptcy and in the office of the Chief Registrar during the months of November and December, 1864, showing the amount of stamp and ad valorem duty paid thereon, the amount of property or composition comprised therein or distributable there under, and the amount of unsecured debts above £10 comprised therein. He found that in the month of November, 1864, the deeds registered were 455, the amount of estate and effects comprised or distributable was £1,047,700, and the amount of unsecured debts above £10 was £3,938,125. And in December, 1864, the deeds registered were 518, the amount of estate and effects comprised or distributable £1,246,600, and the unsecured debts above £10, £4,049,249. That would be at the rate of £48,000,000 a year. It might be objected that these were months of extreme pres sure and exceptions to the general rule; but he had obtained another return which showed that this was rather the normal state in which composition deeds now were. The number of deeds registered in the two months he had named was 973, with a stamp duty of £6,000; while the number for the six months ending 11th April, was 2,800, with a stamp duty of £15,614, and the stamp duty was only a partial test as it extended only up to £80,000. The state of the law as effecting debtor and creditor was as bad as could well be imagined. It was well for the House, then, to inquire what might be the remedy. Very few remedies had been suggested except by the practice in Scotland. It was surprising how little attention had been given to this subject. Take what had occurred before the Committee of last Session. The wit nesses generally had not grappled with the question whether the principle was a right one on which they had heretofore legislated. All the attacks upon Lord Brougham's proposition were on the question of patronage, but nothing was said
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  with respect to the benefit of the estate. He thought that principle had been proved to be essentially and fundamentally wrong. He believed the best system would be to leave creditors to manage their own affairs with their debtors, and that the State should interfere with them as little as possible. If the debtor had been guilty of fraud, let him be brought before the ordinary tribunals of the country; but the creditors should not have the power to punish the debtor in any way. Under the old law the creditor had power to take the body of the debtor, and that he believed was the least profitable and advantageous resource they could give the creditor. The Committee recommended the abolition of imprisonment for debt—that they should take away from the creditor the power of coercing the body of the debtor. They proposed also that the creditors should have the fullest and freest access to the property of the debtor, and that from the moment of insolvency it should vest exclusively in them. The Committee proposed that they should abolish the whole of the present system of bankruptcy, and that they should in lieu thereof give the creditors the power of choosing their own officers and managing their own affairs them selves, only taking care to supply them with efficient supervision in regard to the officers whom they might employ. This difficulty undoubtedly occurred in settling that question—that it was practically impossible to get the individual creditors to look after their own affairs and those of the general body of the creditors; and consequently the remedy recommended by the Committee was the remedy suggested by the Scottish practice, and which had been sanctioned by a successful experience of ten years. The main change proposed by the Committee, then, was the total abolition, as soon as might be practicable, of the whole system of bankruptcy as it now existed in practice. One thing, he thought, was quite certain—namely, that a worse system than the present one could not be devised, and any change which they could make must be for the better. The measures proposed received the most careful consideration from the Committee, and he thought the Committee were greatly encouraged in the somewhat bold course which they had adopted by a communication made to them by a noble and learned Lord who had taken a great interest in that subject. The Lord Chancellor had addressed to him, as Chairman

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  of the Committee, a letter, in which he said—
  "Is it not a mistake to attempt, in a system of rules for the collection and distribution of the assets of a bankrupt, to create a code for enforcing commercial morality?"
  He quite agreed with the noble and learned Lord as to that. The letter continued—
  "A very large part of the present bankruptcy law relates to the manner in which a certificate or discharge shall be granted or refused to a bankrupt, to his protection from arrest, to the liability or non-liability of future acquired property, and to the punishment of the bankrupt in the event of his being found to have committed any act which the bankruptcy law treats as contrary to commercial integrity. This attempt to combine the punishment of the dishonest or reckless debtor with the collection and distribution of his remaining property is in my judgment a very great mistake. It has led to the most expensive and most unsatisfactory and imperfect part of the present system. I would abolish it altogether. If a man has committed a fraud, let him be punished by the existing criminal law. If that be not severe and stringent enough, make it more so; but do not attempt to administer criminal law, or quasi- criminal law, in bankruptcy. Let this be the law:—On a man becoming bankrupt grant him, on his surrender, protection from imprisonment for debt (so long as that absurdity continues), but let his future estate remain liable to his debts until he gets a voluntary discharge from his creditors. Let it be his business to obtain such discharge. If he does not succeed in obtaining a discharge from all his creditors, let him stand, as to his future estate, in the shoes of those creditors who have signed his discharge. All other enforcement of penal law, or infliction of penalties, is a mistake. At present, two separate functions are confounded—the civil and the criminal. The Court of Bankruptcy properly has but one function—the collection and distribution of the debtor's assets, present and future. The law as it stands first assumes that it is its duty to provide the honest bankrupt with a discharge. It has no such duty, but having begun with this false principle, it is then entangled in the necessity of inquiring into the man's honesty or dishonesty, by artificial rules which it has constructed for this purpose. All this is a gross mistake, and has been the fruitful source of the expense, uncertainty, and dissatisfaction that now attend the administration of the bankruptcy law."
  Now, in that he believed was contained the whole germ of a thorough reform in the present law of bankruptcy, and also a remedy by which they might make the law of debtor and creditor just and equitable as between them both. He concurred very much, although the Committee did not, in what the Lord Chancellor said in that communication, as to making the discharge of the debtor depend entirely on the acquiescence of the creditors. He could understand the State interfering to maintain the integrity of contracts between
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  debtor and creditor, but he could not understand the State interfering to violate their integrity. He said, let the debtor and creditor settle the matter between themselves; and as to the payment of 6s. 8d. in the pound giving a man a right to a discharge, he did not agree with the Committee. In the matter of assignments he thought it was still more objectionable. However, the recommendations of the Committee, if embodied in an Act, would, in his opinion, produce the greatest possible benefit to the mercantile interests. He trusted it was not necessary to urge upon the Government that on a question so vast as that, involving certainly an annual tax upon commerce of considerably more than £50,000,000, or about double the yearly charge for the National Debt, the Resolution which he had ventured to lay on the table was deserving of prompt and serious attention. The hon. Member concluded by moving his Resolution.
  Mr. AYRTON, in seconding the Motion, said, he wished to explain the nature of the Resolutions to which his hon. Friend was anxious that the Blouse should then give a general approval. His hon. Friend must have satisfied any one who heard his statement that our present system of bankruptcy law had entirely failed. But if that complete failure was the only result at which Parliament had arrived after devoting itself to that subject for a period of nearly 300 years, they must approach that subject with extreme distrust of their own opinions; and he himself should have hesitated to advocate the adoption of these Resolutions had he not believed that, under lying the whole system of our legislation on that question, there were some radical errors which it was the object of the Committee to induce the House to abandon. The first of those errors was the notion that the imprisonment of a debtor at the instance of a creditor was one of the best means of obtaining the satisfaction of a debt; and it was a little remarkable that in a country like this, which professed so much respect for personal liberty, such an idea should have so long survived. In former times when violence prevailed imprisonment might have been a natural remedy in these cases; and, moreover, our system of law in those days did not give the suitor an adequate remedy when he had obtained the judgment of a Court in his favour. The result was that although the creditor had acquired a right he was practically unable to enforce it, because the law

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  took cognizance only of property which could be readily seized and sold in the market, but not of other forms of property which were not capable of being disposed of by the officer of the court. Therefore imprisonment for debt came to be regarded as a means of reaching any property of which the debtor might be possessed. In later years attempts bad been made to render various kinds of property available for the payment of debts; but those attempts had been comparatively feeble, and recourse continued to be had to the process which the Committee now sought to abolish. It was surprising that anybody should be found to advocate imprisonment for debt, because it seemed to defeat every object which a creditor might be supposed to have in view in commencing a civil proceeding. If the debtor had no property imprisoning him could not serve the creditor, but could only prevent the debtor from earning, by his industry or intelligence, the means of meeting the demands upon him. If, on the other hand, he had property, the remedy was to search it out and make it available in satisfaction of his debts. Again, the system of imprisonment was also mischievous, because it lost sight of the line of demarcation between a civil and a criminal proceeding, the former having for its object the satisfaction in money or money's worth of some demand; the latter seeking the punishment of the offender by imprisonment more or less severe. Again, imprisoning a person if he were involved in difficulties only added to his embarrassment, and by taking away his power of looking after his affairs tended to the greater devastation of the estate which it was desirable for the sake of the creditors should be preserved. The Committee, for these reasons, came to the conclusion that it was absolutely necessary to sweep wholly away the fallacious system of imprisonment for debt. In the case of a person who attempted to abscond from the country without giving up his property, there would still be power to detain him until he had disclosed it. The next Resolution arose out of the change which the Committee proposed to make. The law was at present applied only to debts above £50, and a large number of debtors would escape if that limit was retained. The Committee came to the conclusion that the provision of the last Bankruptcy Acts as to trader debtor summonses should be extended to amounts below £50; so that while imprisonment for debt was abolished, every creditor would
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  be able to push to the fullest extent his claim against his debtor. Bankruptcy being, thus speaking, generally reduced to the simple condition that a man was unable to meet the demands which were made upon him by his creditors, the Committee were of opinion that it would no longer be necessary to maintain important Courts of Justice all over the country for the administration of the law with regard to it. All that would be necessary in 99 cases out of 100—he might say, in 999 cases out of 1,000—would be merely an authentic re cord of the facts of the status of the bankrupt, and this it was proposed should be made in the country by the County Courts, and in the metropolis by a special Court to be constituted for the purpose. The next evil to be cured arose from the old idea that bankruptcy was in some sort a penal proceeding, which must be pressed with great rigour against the bankrupt. The consequence was that as soon as a man failed a flight of officers were let loose against him, by whom his property was harried until it was delivered to his creditors shorn of one-third of its amount. In 99 cases out of 100 the employment of all this legal machinery was quite need less; and the Committee therefore recommended that a bankrupt's estate should remain in his custody until a meeting of creditors had been held to express their opinion as to the best mode of dealing with it, power being given to the Judge to order the immediate disposal of any thing that was so perishable that it could not be preserved for even a few days. The next alteration recommended referred to the rights of secured creditors. At pre sent secured creditors who clearly had entirely different interests from those of creditors holding no security, exercised rights as to the disposal of the estate to the full amount of the demands. The result was that they got assignees appointed who were favourable to themselves, and who were not active in investigating what portion of the estate was really available to meet the demands of the unsecured creditors, but connived at the enforcement of their securities. In order to redress this grievance, the Committee proposed that creditors should only interfere in the first steps for the administration of the bankrupt's estate to the extent of their unsecured debts; thus reserving to the unsecured creditors the whole power of directing the administration of the estate.
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
  House adjourned at a quarter after Eight o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Customs and Inland Revenue* (105); Prisons (Scotland) Act Amendment* (100); Mortgage Debentures * (107): Locomotives on Roads* (108).
Second Reading—Sewage Utilization (80); Oxford University (Vinerian Foundation) (79). Committee—Metropolitan Houseless Poor (70). Report—Married Womens' Property (Ireland)* (53.)
Third Reading—Marriages (Lambourne) (83) [H.L.]; District Church Tithes* (101) [H.L.]; Isle of Man (Disafforestation) Compensation* (01), and passed.

SEWAGE UTILIZATION BILL—(No. 80.)

  SECOND READING.
  LORD RAVENS WORTH, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said, he hoped their Lordships would extend to him their indulgence while he briefly explained its object and the circumstances under which he had been induced to take charge of the measure. The Bill had been introduced into the other House of Parliament in conjunction with another entitled the River Waters Protection Bill—the two Bilk having kindred objects, were brought in at the same time by the noble Lord the Member for Huntingdonshire (Lord Robert Montagu). Very powerful argu-

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  ments were used to induce the House of Commons to accept these two measures; but, owing to difficulties inter posed, the latter Bill had been withdrawn, and the present Bill was allowed to pass unopposed. Although the River Waters Protection Bill did not accompany this measure, yet the two Bills were so intimately connected and the facts by which both were supported so strong that it would be necessary to refer to them in order to lay the foundation for the enactment of the present measure. It was an indisputable fact that the pollution of rivers was increasing with the increase of population and manufactories, and the evil had now attained a most serious magnitude. In proof of this he might refer to the memorials addressed in March last year to the First Lord of the Treasury by three noble Lords—the Earl of Shaftesbury and Lords Ebury and Llanover—respecting the sanitary condition of rivers and streams. It was there stated that the increasing pollution of rivers and streams had become a matter of national importance, which urgently demanded the immediate attention of the Legislature; that the discharge of sewage and the refuse of factories into rivers was a source of increasing danger to the public health and that the evil had been aggravated by the unprecedented drought of the last summer which had dried up the natural wells over a large space. It was stated in the Report of the Sewage Commission of 1861 that no fewer than 100 towns were in this lamentable condition owing to the pollution of their streams. But he need not go far to show to their Lordships the evils of this pollution, for it was to be seen in the condition of the river which flowed under the very walls of Parliament. Most of the water with which London was supplied was taken from the river, and the companies which supplied it had recently been compelled to take their supplies from above Teddington Locks, where the water was comparatively pure; but it had been given in evidence that the Thames above that point received the sewage of fifty towns, and at this moment the inhabitants of London were drinking water infected by the sew age of 800,000 persons. It had been abundantly proved that the filtration by which it had been attempted to render the water fit for use did not remove the matter held in solution. Into that noble river the Imperial Gas Company proposed, by a Bill now before their Lordships' House,
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  to throw the residuum of their works, extended over a vast area. They sought powers to increase their capital by £1,200,000, their borrowing powers by £400,000, and the acreage covered by their works by 100 acres. The nuisance which would thus be created had been ex posed the other evening by the right rev. Bishop of the diocese, and he earnestly hoped that, either by a vote of that House, or by the decision of a Committee upstairs, some effectual check would be interposed to the pestiferous attempts of this Company still further to corrupt the Thames by pouring into it their refuse and impurities. The Clyde, the great arterial river of the West of Scotland, was represented in the Report of the Sewage Commissioners as being in even a worse condition than the Thames. York, Manchester, Leeds, and Nottingham were all suffering alike from the same cause. Professor Acland, of the University of Oxford, said that the state of the river Thames was a national disgrace, and he described the process of fermentation which took place in its waters. Mr. Rawlinson spoke of the pestilential effluvia to which the inhabitants of Birmingham were exposed from the pollution of the adjacent streams and the discharge into them of large quantities of refuse from various works. The same evils were corrupting the health of all our large towns, and it was no wonder that the in habitants prayed for some amelioration of the evil. Such impurities destroyed the fish in our rivers; and just as the mephitic air in a well or mine, which would extinguish a lighted candle, was fatal to human life, so the destruction of fish in a stream proved that its condition was deleterious to human life. He hoped he had said sufficient to induce their Lordships to give a favourable consideration to this Bill, inasmuch as it was likely to remedy, to a great extent, the evils he had de scribed, while, at the same time, it utilized the sewage, which was their cause. It was merely a permissive Bill, enabling the local authorities of towns and parishes to take such steps as they might deem expedient for distributing over the land the sewage of their respective districts which had hitherto found its way into their watercourses and streams. The Bill would interfere with no existing rights, and give no compulsory powers. If their Lordships assented, as he trusted they would readily do, to its principle, any objections which might be urged to its details

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  could be more considered in Committee. The local authorities by whom the measure would be carried out were mentioned in the schedule of the Bill, which contained many references to existing Acts, and particularly to the Public Health Act and the Local Government Act. There could be no question, from the evidence laid before Parliament, as to the beneficial effect of the application of sewage to the land, and especially to grass land. It was instructive to look at the cases of those countries where sewage was husbanded and utilized. In China, with its hundreds of millions of inhabitants, travellers told them that not an atom of refuse was lost, the rivers and streams were kept pure, and the empire was consequently enabled to sustain its immense population by its own produce. The same remarks applied to Japan. But we, on the contrary, who boasted of being the most civilized country ever known, wasted at our own doors that which might enrich our soil, at the same time polluting our rivers and our atmosphere, while we sent whole fleets to the ends of the earth to procure artificial elements of fertilization. We imported enormous quantities of guano; and yet with all that we were not able to feed our people, but had to draw from foreign countries from 14,000,000 to 16,000,000 quarters of wheat and grain annually. Was it not, then, worth while to turn our attention to these facts, and to endeavour to employ with benefit to our selves and relief to the overcrowded parts of the country those advantages and means which were within our reach? Steps had already been taken by the Government, much to their credit, for the purposes of purifying the atmosphere of our towns, and he might, by the way, embrace that opportunity of asking why they had not received the Reports of the Inspectors appointed under the Act relating to that subject, seeing it had been provided that those Reports should be issued in the month of March. But, returning to the Bill which he held in his hand, it was a further step in the same direction, and an endeavour to extend to the purification of rivers that which had already been at tempted for the purification of the atmosphere.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(Lord Ravensworth.)
  LORD REDESDALEhad not the slightest objection to the principle of the Bill, but he thought it was framed in a
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  very imperfect manner, and that the details would require careful consideration.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, the measure was one well deserving the favourable consideration of their Lordships. It was, no doubt, a supplemental Bill to the numerous Local Health Acts that had been passed of late years; but it was a strange thing that Parliament should have left this blank for so long a time as to render it necessary to fill up the void in that imperfect manner. It was a means to a good end—that of agricultural profit and sanitary improvements, and he thought it might be very properly passed by their Lordships.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House, on Monday next.

  METROPOLITAN HOUSELESS POOR BILL.—(No. 70.)—COMMITTEE.
  EARL DE GREY, in moving that the House resolve itself into Committee on this Bill, said, that when he moved the second reading of the Bill, a noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) had asked for a short statement as to the operation of the Act which the present Bill proposed to continue. As their Lordships were aware, before the passing of the temporary measure on this subject last year, the provision made for the relief of the casual poor in London was very unsatisfactory. The accommodation was very inadequate, notices were frequently put up that the casual ward was full, and that therefore no more of these poor persons could be admitted, while none of the wards were kept open all night. He was, however, happy to say that the Act of last year had worked well, and that there had been a marked improvement in the treatment of these persons. At the present moment there was adequate provision for the casual poor in all the unions with the exception of three, where the provision made was not sufficient. In no less than twenty-one unions, in which previously the accommodation was very insufficient, there was now permanent and adequate accommodation; but in several of the remaining unions the accommodotion thus provided was not of a permanent character, for, as the Act of last year was only temporary, these unions had not thought right to provide permanent accommodation. Nevertheless there was no doubt that, if the present Bill passed

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  into law, adequate permanent provision would be made by the guardians in the metropolis for the accommodation of the houseless poor. With respect to the adequacy of the accommodation provided under the Act of last year, he was able to make a satisfactory statement. Before the passing of that Act there was accommodation in the metropolitan unions for 997 casual poor, and that was very unequally distributed, and of a very unsatisfactory condition. But at the present moment there was suitable provision for 1,578 persons; but upon one night in the month of January last, when the largest number of applications was made at the unions, 620 casual poor were received into the union wards, while, at the same time, 955 persons of a similar description were accommodated in the refuges which existed in various parts of the metropolis. Thus, on the night when the largest number of persons required accommodation, only 1,575 applied for it, being somewhat less than the number which could have been accommodated in the union wards, independently of the refuges. He thought that their Lordships would agree with him in considering that was a satisfactory result to be obtained in a few months under the operation of the temporary Act. He would not trouble their Lordships by reading the many letters which he had since received stating the view taken by the Boards of Guardians of the Act, but he would state generally that the Act was approved by them, and they were now willing to do that which they were never willing to do before—namely, to provide permanently proper accommodation for the casual poor. There was almost universal testimony on their part in favour of the operation of the Act. There was one or two clauses in the present Bill which effected improvements on the Act of last year, to one of which only he would refer on the present occasion. The claase in question provided that the police should have the power to take persons coming under the description of casual poor to the wards of the workhouses, who were then to be immediately admitted. This provision was re commended by the Committee of last year, and he believed that it might be carried into operation with great advantage. Sir Richard Mayne thought that it could be worked without difficulty in the metropolis, and therefore it had been thought desirable to give this additional security to persons in the unfortunate situation of the casual poor.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONadmitted that, in many instances, the Act of last year had worked satisfactorily, though he was surprised to hear the noble Earl state that there was an unanimous feeling among the Boards of Guardians of the metropolis in its favour. He could not himself concur in the eulogy which the noble Earl (Earl de Grey) had passed on that Act. From inquiries he had made he had come to the conclusion that the Act had undoubtedly produced satisfactory results in certain parishes where the guardians were willing to meet it in a liberal spirit; but in other parishes, he was sorry to say, it had been met in a spirit so illiberal and churlish as to have proved almost ineffectual. He did not state this as a mere matter of assertion, but the Returns which had been ordered by the other House and which had been laid on their Lordships' table, proved on their face that the Act of last year had not been so complete a success as the noble Earl would have their Lordships suppose. The very first thing observable in looking at the Returns was the in equality which prevailed in the different unions. It extended to every part of the administration, and affected the accommodation given, the treatment of the persons admitted, and the labour exacted from them. Every pauper was entitled to receive one meal on admission and another on discharge. The food varied from nine ounces of bread down to four, three, and in one case actually 2½ ounces of bread. This was an enormous disproportion in the fare, which must make the Act work badly. The bread was in some unions supplemented by a pint of gruel in the morning; in other cases gruel was given both at morning and evening; and in one case the exuberant prodigality of the generosity of the guardians found vent in permission to the pauper to drink as much water as he pleased in addition to the bread which was given him. The labour required in return for food and shelter varied just as much. In some cases it took the form of corn-grinding, in others of pumping water or turning a crank, and in others a regulation prevailed which would probably excite their Lordships' surprise, and which so far as he knew was to be found in no county gaol—oakum picking was reserved for the aged and the infirm, for women and children. Not only did the character of the labour differ, but the quantity exacted and the time during which they were kept at their tasks, which varied from one hour

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  up to four, and the quantity to be picked from one pound to three. Again, the accommodation in the different unions varied greatly. In some cases the wards had not been fitted up for the purpose of accommodating the casual poor; in others the ventilation was defective, and the paupers had not more than seventy or eighty cubic feet of air each during the whole night; in one instance, it appeared that two beds in the male wards were occupied by three persons. It was a perfect farce to say, under these circumstances, that this was affording proper shelter to the poor, or that the Act was working satisfactorily. In one case, that of St. George's-in-the-East, every adult was required to pick two pounds of oakum for every meal he or she might have. It was impossible, consistently with the Act of last year, to re quire those conditions. In another in stance, the guardians assigned as a reason for refusing relief, that the applicants belonged to other metropolitan parishes; but that was no good reason why the guardians should not take in these persons and give them shelter. If Boards of Guardians acted upon such grounds as these the Act was entirely nullified and set aside, and there was no security that the relief which ought to be granted had been so granted. The consequence of this unequal treatment of the casual poor in the different unions was that some of the wards were too full, while others, in other unions, were comparatively empty. One ward was described in the Returns as never used, and the reason was obvious, for in proportion as the guardians acted in a harsh and illiberal spirit the poor would be driven away and the wards would remain empty. He quite admitted that there was a difficulty in the first application of the Act—too much liberality would be an evil, as too much strictness was, and it was not easy to fix the point where the guardians could give enough and not too much. It would be obviously wrong to give more to one of these casual poor than to the pauper within the walls of the workhouse, or to an honest man, who by his own industry was struggling to maintain himself out side the walls of the workhouse. The class of casual poor, moreover, was no doubt a difficult one to deal with—often idle and dissolute, and from the lowest dregs of society. At the same time, it must be borne in mind that the casual poor were not a criminal class. As a matter of fact, very few criminals, if any, took advan-
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  tage of the Act of last year; and when the police agency contained in this Bill was put into execution there was less I chance of this still. He could not agree with the noble Earl that the Act of last year had been so successful as he had described; but he did not oppose the Bill, being merely anxious that the Poor Law Board should direct their attention to the subject, and as far as possible prevent the Act from being made practically a dead letter, as it very often was, by the illiberal and churlish parsimony of Boards of Guardians.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYadmitted that there might be defects in the administration, but where the law was effectively administered it worked very great good. He had been favoured with some statistics showing what had been done under the Act in one of the largest parishes in London. From the 29th of September, 1864, to the 25th of March, 1865, 4,740 persons had been relieved in this way, at a cost of £244, showing an average cost of 2½d. a head, for which each person received in the evening and morning six ounces of bread and a pint of gruel. About 50 per cent of the per sons admitted stated that they had not been in London more than three days. Only thirty-seven had been refused admission; of whom twenty men and eight women would not take the bath, which was always warm; two men found the beds too hard; and seven had more than a shilling in their possession. The conduct of the great majority of the "casuals"—for this was the new word that was passing into the English language—was reported to be good. Cases of insubordination had been rare; and it had not been necessary to take any of them before the magistrate for riotous or disorderly behaviour. This was a good picture of the results of the law. In some cases the Act might be administered with severity; but it must be remembered that there was a considerable difference in the population in different parts of London, and that it might be necessary to change the treatment according to kind of poor with whom you had to deal. After the discussion which had taken place, however, the law would probably be more efficiently administered, and he believed it would be a real and permanent blessing to the class it was intended to relieve.
  House in Committee; an Amendment made; the Report thereof to be received on Thursday next.

OXFORD UNIVERSITY (VINERIAN FOUNDATION) BILL—(No. 79.)

  SECOND READING.
  THE EARL OF DERBY, in moving the second reading of this Bill, to which he did not anticipate any opposition, said, its object was to enable the University of Oxford to pass a statute amending a statute which had been already passed in pursuance of the will of Charles Viner. The Vinerian foundation arose from the will of Charles Viner, who died in 1755, and who bequeathed the whole of his very valuable library and a bequest worth £12,000 to the University. If all who had been at the University were actuated by the same conscientious motives as Sir Charles Viner that seat of learning would be enriched indeed; for Mr. Viner stated that his bequest was given to the Chancellor, Masters and Scholars of the University "in order to make some amends for my indiscretion there in infancy." The testator then proceeded to specify his objects, one of which was for nominating, appointing, and establishing a Professor ship of Common Law at the University and putting it upon a proper footing, in order that young gentlemen who might be students there might be instructed and enabled to pursue their studies to the best advantage when attending the courts at Westminster, and might not trifle away their time by hearing what they under stood nothing of, and thereby divert their minds from the study of the law to their own prejudice. For the purpose of effecting this very laudable object it was pro posed that out of a portion of the residue of the funds provision should be made for publishing a Supplement to his own Abridgment of the Law, and also appointing, ns far as the funds would allow, one or more fellowships and scholarships. The Abridgment to which he referred consisted of twenty-four large volumes, and the Supplement had been published, he believed, in the small compass of six additional volumes. The University desired to act in accordance with the directions of the founder in every respect; but in order to carry them out in his evident intention they desired to appoint a resident Professor. In order to do so, however, it was necessary that the original statute of 1758 should be modified accordingly. But upon proposing to make those alterations they were informed by the present Attorney General that it was doubtful
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  whether they could modify it without the assistance of Parliament, because the statute formerly passed was in conformity with the precise terms of the will of the founder. It was to enable them to make the necessary alterations that this Bill was introduced. The proposed modification had been sanctioned by the Hebdomadal Council, and had been unanimously approved by the Council of Convocation. The Bill had been introduced into the other House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as one of the Members for the University, and the Attorney General, its counsel, and had passed without opposition. He trusted it would be received equally without objection by their Lord ships. He begged to move the second reading of the Bill.
  Motion agreed to; Bill rend 2a and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday next.

MASTERS IN THE ROYAL NAVY.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it was intended to abolish the rank of Masters in the Royal Navy?
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, it was the intention of the Admiralty to do so; hut the mode in which it should be done would be so as to effect in the least possible degree the interests of the class of masters, who numbered from 700 to 800 persons. Their interests would be very carefully scoured. The only step taken by the Admiralty at present was that they had stopped the entry of that class of cadets from whom the masters were taken. The most convenient course for putting the House in possession of the intentions of the Admiralty would be to lay the proposed scheme on the table as soon as possible, and that would give the noble Earl an opportunity of bringing the question before the House.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, that in all probability when that time came it would be too late to do anything, or to change in any way the intentions of the Admiralty. It was well known that the Admiralty had power to make such changes in the navy, either of themselves or by Orders in Council; there was no need that the subject should come before Parliament, and therefore the only way to call attention to it was by Question. The step now contemplated appeared to him one of the

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  most extraordinary that had ever been taken in the details of the service. The masters were most ancient and important officers. In olden times, before the navy was fashioned as it was now, those officers were the masters of merchant ships and of the ships belonging to the Cinque Ports, which the King took up, and on hoard of which he placed his troops, for the purpose of defending the country or attacking the enemy's ships or shores. He had seen a list of the time of Henry V., in which were shown the names of the masters who were thus taken into the King's service. Theirs, therefore, was a very ancient office—as ancient as that of the captains of ships. In process of time, however, the navy was placed under the system which now existed, the masters became subsidiary to the captains, but they still discharged all the duties which belonged to their office in ancient days; they navigated the ship, looked to its rigging and storage, and were responsible to the Government for the stores placed on board. They were, more over, the ship's pilots. They were educated as pilots of ships in all the narrow waters on the coasts of the United Kingdom and in the German Ocean. It took a life to become a perfect pilot on these extensive coasts, and in all the inlets and harbours contained within the compass of the shores of Great Britain and Ireland. He deplored extremely the resolution which had been taken to abolish the office; and then, after all, its abolition must be compensated by the substitution of some other, for assuredly the navigation of our ships must be carried on by men whose whole mind was devoted solely to that important branch of the ser vice. It was perfectly true that all the officers of a ship were brought up as navigators; but it was constant practice which made the master so superior to the lieutenant, because the lieutenant's executive duties, with which the master had nothing to do, would not admit of his giving up his mind to the observation of the chronometer and the heavenly bodies. Therefore, in abolishing the master's office they must find some other man to put in his place; and they must either select lieu tenants who were to be taught the duties, to the injury of the duties they at present discharged, or else they must create a second class of lieutenants. He doubted whether the duties of master were compatible with the executive duties of lieu tenants. Moreover, if the officer who
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  hereafter discharged the duties of master had the rank of lieutenant they would necessarily expect to rise to that of captain and admiral. Under these circumstances the proposal of the Admiralty seemed to him to be a great mistake. They were going to abolish the rank of master, of second master, and assistant master; but they must have qualified officers to fill their places. Those officers would naturally desire to assume all the authority of the executive, while their minds would be distracted by the charge of stores, the management of the rigging, and the other duties which now fell to the lot of the master. If they effected this change the Admiralty would have two descriptions of lieutenants, brought up in two branches of the service; and when a lieutenant bad shown himself to be a good navigator, he would be much sought after by captains. If the Government obliterated this grade of the service it would be the desire of every officer filling the duties of master to rise to the rank of admiral. The master, at present, had very important duties to perform. As the law and practice is now, he might rise to be master of the fleet, and with rank of Staff Commander. There were other advantages which followed from the great knowledge he gained in the public duties of the service. In the proposed scheme, of which their Lordships knew nothing at present, he presumed it was intended to place the masters on the lieutenants' list. If so, the already unfortunate list of 1,000 lieutenants would be inundated by the addition of move than 250 masters—some said 700. What would, then, be the lieutenant's prospect of promotion? At present he rose very slowly in the service. He presumed the masters would not be placed at the bottom of the lieutenants' list but would be inserted in it according to their rank in the service. Perhaps the noble Duke intended that the masters should die out; and that would be the wisest plan, giving them nominal rank and pay, and then cutting off the supply, and thus by degrees bringing the lieutenants into play to perform the duties of master. On the whole, however, he looked upon the proposed change as a very serious matter, and he did not see what the country would gain by it. He thought it to be his duty to bring the matter before the House, although on the present occasion he did not expect their Lordships to give any decided expression of their opinions.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that before the proposed scheme was carried into effect it would be laid upon the table, and their Lordships would have further time to consider it. He agreed with the noble Earl that the question was one of great importance. There had been considerable dissatisfaction among the masters, who wish to rise in rank. While, however, they remained a class apart there was great difficulty. On the other hand, all young lieutenants were instructed, and many were highly skilled in navigation; and it had been thought by many officers of great judgment that you might have a set of lieutenants for navigation, as they had lieutenants who devoted themselves to gunnery, and that such a change would be most satisfactory to the service. The pro posed mode of dealing with the first and second masters would be seen when he laid the papers on the table; and there was no intention of carrying the change into effect until Parliament had had ample opportunity of considering the subject. Whatever was done, it was important that it should give satisfaction to the service, and that it should be generally regarded as an improvement.

REPORT UPON MINES.
LORD KINNAIRD, who had on the paper a notice to move that the Resolutions and Recommendations of members of the Com mission appointed to inquire into the condition of Mines in Great Britain, to which the provisions of the Act of 23 & 24 Vict. c. 151, did not apply, be laid on the table in a form separate from the Report, said that, as he understood Her Majesty's Government objected to the Resolutions being granted, he did not wish to press his Motion, and it might be convenient to their Lordships if he were to state upon what grounds he did not wish to press it. He would take that opportunity of saying with reference to what was reported to have taken place in the other House on the previous evening—namely, that the Home Secretary had stated that the Bill did not embrace these Resolutions, that he (Lord Kinnaird) had received a letter from the right hon. Baronet, in which he stated that he had been misunderstood, and that he certainly did not make that statement.
LORD VIVIANsaid, he could assure the noble Lord that the county in which he (Lord Vivian) resided were strongly opposed to the Bill, and almost every por-
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tion of the county was ready to combine with a view to contest legislation in the spirit in which the noble Lord proposed to deal with the subject. He thought he might venture to say that under such circumstances legislation would be impracticable, and he appealed to the noble Lord at least to postpone the Bill until Her Majesty's Government had had an opportunity of considering these Resolutions.
LORD KINNAIRDsaid, he could not agree with the noble Lord, who, he felt assured, must be misinformed. He (Lord Kinnaird) had received letters from persons in that district, who told him that all right-thinking agents and shareholders were in favour of legislation; and he expected soon to receive a deputation, with a view of introducing some Amendments into the measure. In the meantime he would say that his Bill had been even more favourably received than he had expected, and therefore he could not accede to the proposition for postponement.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, it was not convenient to discuss the provisions of the Bill at that time. Had the noble Lord not withdrawn his Motion he certainly should have supported the proposal of the noble Lord (Lord Vivian), to enable the Government to have further time for considering the subject.
House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.