Sitting of 1 March 1864

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Controverted Elections, Chairmen's Panel, Edward Howes, esq. v. George Ward Hunt, esq., discharged.
PUBLIC BILLS — Ordered— Naval Prize*; Naval Agency and Distribution*; Naval Prize Acts Repeal*; Marine Mutiny.
Second Reading—Court of Justiciary (Scotland)* [Bill 31].
Considered as amended—Vestry Cess Abolition (Ireland)* [Bill 15].
Third Reading — Malt for Cattle* [Bill 37]; Conveyancers, &c. (Ireland)* [Bill 5],

CONSOLIDATION OF POOR LAW.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HIBBERTsaid, he would beg to ask the President of the Poor Law Board, Whether, with a view to simplify and render more easy of reference the very numerous Statutes relating to the Relief of the Poor, any effort is being made by the Poor Law Board to procure the consolidation of such Statutes?
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, in reply, that the Poor Law Board did not at present contemplate making any effort to consolidate the Statutes relating to the poor. Some years ago, the Commissioners of the Poor Laws had deemed it of great importance to have a digest made of those numerous Statutes spreading over a period of nearly 300 years; and the services of a very able and well-known gentleman were engaged for that purpose; but, for some reasons that were deemed sufficient at the time, he
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  was not allowed to finish his work, nor had he been remunerated for his service. Since that time a very valuable work had been published by a gentleman in the Poor Law Department, which was generally considered from its nature and arrangement to answer all the purposes of consolidation, presenting within a short compass and a simple form all the enactments affecting the relief of the poor, as well as the Union and Parochial Officers. It was a book of general reference throughout the Unions of the country.

  UNITED STATES — SEIZURE OF THE BARQUE "SCIENCE."—QUESTION.
  MR. HASSARDsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If it is true that, upon the last day appointed for the adjudication at New Orleans upon the case of the barque Science, seized at Matamoras—namely, the 23rd of January last, no appearance was made on the part of the captors, nor was any future day appointed for the hearing of the case; and, in the event of those facts being true, whether Her Majesty's Government will demand the immediate release of said vessel?
  MR. LAYARDsaid, in reply, that no such information, as alluded to by the hon. Gentleman, had been received by the Government. On the contrary, that very morning he received a Despatch from the English Consul at New Orleans, stating that the case of the Science had been heard towards the end of January, and that a part remained to be heard early in the following month.

MR. WHITWORTH'S GUNS.

  QUESTION.
  MAJOR GAVINsaid, he would beg, in the absence of his hon. Friend (Mr. Gregory), to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, when Mr. Whitworth's guns are to be tried, and the causes of the delay in the trial?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, the House, I apprehend, is aware that experiments have never altogether ceased with guns upon Mr. Whitworth's principle of construction. Several guns have at different times been ordered from Mr. Whitworth, and tried by the Government. In consequence of the very decided success in the year 1862 of guns of that construction against iron plates, it was decided

  1335
  that a competitive trial between guns on the Whitworth and Armstrong principles should take place. Mr. Whitworth objected, to some extent, to the trial being conducted by the Ordnance Select Committee, who were the usual advisers of the Secretary of State on such subjects, on the ground that they were, to a great extent, identified with the Armstrong system, and therefore could not be considered altogether unbiassed. It had accordingly been decided that a new Committee should be appointed, and Mr. Whitworth expressed himself perfectly satisfied with the constitution of that Committee and with the programme of the experiments which the Committee intended to institute. The Committee was appointed in January, 1863, and in February of that year Mr. Whitworth was informed what guns would be required. He stated that he should be able to deliver them all—namely, three 12-pounders and three 70-pounders—within eight weeks. The guns, however, have not yet been delivered, and Mr. Whitworth has frequently been called upon to deliver the guns or to state his reasons for the delay. Last summer Mr. Whitworth stated that he was unable to procure the proper metal for the manufacture of large guns, on account of the manufacturer not having obtained the necessary machinery. The Committee have very recently visited Mr. Whitworth's works at Manchester, and he promised that the guns should at the very latest be delivered by the 15th of this month. It has now been decided that whether the guns are delivered or not by that time, the experiments, or such of them as can be conducted with the guns which have already been delivered, shall be commenced and carried out at a date not later than the 1st of April next. The delay, therefore, it will be seen, does not arise with the Government or the Committee, but from Mr. Whitworth not being able, as I understand, to obtain the necessary metal for the manufacture of large guns.

DENMARK AND GERMANY.

  THE CORRESPONDENCE.—QUESTION.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether there is not in the Papers on Danish Affairs, a Despatch from himself to Sir A. Paget, of date of the 30th of November, 1863, to which an Answer is returned by Sir A. Paget, from Copenhagen, dated the 1st of
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  December, 1863, and how he accounts for so rapid an Answer, if the transmission of the first Despatch was not by telegraph?
  MR. LAYARDsaid, in reply, that the House well knew that the hon. Gentleman was a great traveller, who liked to test his opinions on foreign affairs by local investigation, and he had, therefore, no doubt the hon. Gentleman found it impossible to go from London to Copenhagen and back again in twenty-four hours. He could assure him there was no Messenger in the Foreign Office who could perform the journey in that time. But the mystery was easily explained. He understood the hon. Gentleman to ask him whether it was the custom of the Foreign Office to give telegraphic Despatches. Nearly all Despatches to our representatives abroad were sent in cipher, and there would be an end to all communications between the Foreign Office and its agents abroad, if they presented those communications as literal transcripts of the cipher. The House would understand, that if the Foreign Office published their Despatches as they were sent they might as well have no cipher at all. The precaution was therefore always taken of stating in another form, in a subsequent Despatch, the substance of the telegram. It was on this account that sometimes a Despatch to a distant mission was dated one day, and the Answer the following day.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITH: Was the Despatch of the 30th of November a telegram or not?
  MR. LAYARD: The substance of that Despatch was sent by telegram, not the Despatch itself. As I stated, it would be impossible to send to Copenhagen and get an answer back in twenty-four hours except by telegraph.

THE ARMY ESTIMATES.

  QUESTION.
  LORD HOTHAMsaid, that the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for War has given notice of his intention to bring in the Army Estimates on Thursday. That notice was given in rather an unusual manner, and he (Lord Hotham) was led to ask, Whether it is intended to bring on the Army Estimates, and to go through with them in the ordinary manner, or whether it is proposed, as has been done on the Navy Estimates, to ask for those Votes on which the Mutiny Bill and the financial arrangements more especially depend, deferring the remaining Votes to a future period?

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  If the latter is the intention of the noble Lord, he would beg to ask, which is to be the last Vote taken on Thursday?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON,in reply, said, he was not able to state what arrangements had been made as to the course of public business, but he believed, in consequence of the shortness of the time between this and Easter, it was desirable to obtain the Vote for men at as early a day as possible. The Government, therefore, intended to get the Vote for men on Thursday, or as soon after as they could; but he was not able to say at present whether they should ask the House to agree to any other Votes. Perhaps the noble Lord would allow him to explain, with reference to what he said was the unusual form of the Votes, that the form was exactly the same as the Votes were taken in last year. The late Sir George Lewis made an alteration in the form of the Estimates, and the first Vote or rather Resolution, last year, was exactly in the same terms as that of which he (the Marquess of Hartington) had given notice.
  LORD HOTHAMsaid, he found no fault with the mode in which it was proposed to deal with the Vote, but with the uncertainty in which it was placed. He had better at once give notice that on Vote 6, for the administration of Martial Law, he should make some observations on the course adopted towards Colonel Crawley of the Inniskillen Dragoons.
  LORD ROBERT CECILsaid, he wished to know what hour of the night would be the latest for bringing on the Army Estimates, as the noble Marquess appeared in a hurry to bring them on?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, it would be necessary to consult the convenience of the House, but the noble Lord at the head of the Government had suggested that they might be brought on at any hour before twelve o'clock.

TELEGRAPHIC DESPATCHES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he had not told him yesterday that telegraphic Despatches are never printed, and to-day has acknowledged that one has been printed?
  MR. LAYARDsaid, in reply, that he thought he had given a complete explanation of the matter. Of course, if a Despatch was sent in words it was printed,
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  but he understood that the hon. Member's question applied to Despatches sent in cipher which were not printed.

  CIVIL SERVICE AND MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.—RESOLUTION.
  MR. MARSHsaid, he rose to move a Resolution, That the Civil Service and Miscellaneous Estimates had been, for many years, rapidly increasing and ought to be reduced. Some might object to the question being brought forward in the way of Resolution, but that was the most constitutional way; and, besides, it was practically impossible to discuss those Estimates in detail when brought on at, perhaps, 2 o'clock in the morning. He need hardly say that he did not bring forward this Motion in a spirit of hostility to the Government, because the present Government was the first for thirty years, if not within the memory of man, which had reduced these Estimates; for they reduced them last year by the sum of £23,967; and he was in hopes that a strong expression of the House in favour of his Motion would strengthen the hands of the Government, and especially of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so as to enable them to reduce the expenditure by which taxation might be diminished, and the comforts of the people and the commerce of the country materially increased. The House would probably be astonished at the immense increase which had taken place in the Civil Service Estimates in the last thirty years; and they were much indebted to the hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham (Sir Henry Willough-by) for the Returns which he had obtained upon this subject. These Returns showed, that while in 1835 the total amount of the Estimates was only £2,393,000, they had risen in 1863 to £7,805,000, showing a difference of £5,412,000; so that it would appear the taxation of the country was £5,412,000 more now than it was in 1835. But that was not all nor nearly all. To that must be added 5 per cent for the collection of taxes, which would bring the difference to £5,682,000, which if the Estimates were reduced to the level of 1835 would be available for the remission of taxation. But taking the sum at £5,412,000 there might be added to that half—or, at least, one-third—owing to the power of taxes when reduced of recovering themselves. There were those who were of opinion that the fire insurance duty if half of it were taken off, would recover itself in a few years. He was of opinion that the to-

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  bacco duties if reduced in a like degree would do so in three or four years. Even in the case of the reduction of the income tax the whole would not be lost, because the Government gained in the first place fairer returns; and secondly, if a man had money to spend he would lay it out in some manner or other so that it would find its way back into the Exchequer. Adding, then, to the £5,412,000, one-third of which might be fairly allowed for recovery, we were now paying the enormous sum of £7,576,000 more than we did in 1835. With the whole of this large sum the Chancellor of the Exchequer might fairly deal. But the relief to the people would be still greater; for experience showed, that the amount by which a tax was reduced was not the measure of relief to the people. For instance, in the case of tea last year, only 5d. in the lb. was taken off the duty, but the price was reduced in nearly every shop in London 6d. per lb. There was a penny tax upon newspapers, and at that time the newspaper was sold for 5d. When the penny tax was taken off the newspaper, according to Cocker, would be sold for id., but it was sold for a penny. The duty on paper was 1½ d. per lb., and the larger papers were sold for 4d. On The Times, Morning Post, and such papers, the 1½d. tax would be less than ½d., but the price was soon reduced 1d. Thus the public gained more than was taken off in the shape of taxation. For these reasons, he thought that at least 10 per cent might be added to the £7,576,000 as what the public paid in addition to what the Government received, making a total of £8,334,000, as the sum the public paid for Civil Service and Miscellaneous Estimates more than in 1835. But the sum the House had to consider was what the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have to deal with if such a state of affairs existed as in 1835, and that would be £7,576,000. That sum was equivalent to the whole of the income tax, nearly equal to the stamp duties, including the fire insurance duty; it was more than the malt tax, and it would enable half the duty on tea and sugar to be taken off with perfect safety to the revenue. It must be admitted, that the increase of the population and other causes had caused a great increase in the expenditure of the country, and, therefore, the Civil Service Estimates would, of necessity, be larger than they were thirty years ago. Certain sums, such as the proceeds of the Woods and Forests,
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  which used to be paid into the revenue net were now paid in the gross. On the other hand, in consequence of the free institutions given to the colonies, and other causes, there was a saving on that head of not less than £237,954; and, as far as he could make out, for there was some difficulty on account of transfers and other reasons, the whole of the sums which used formerly to be paid and were not now paid out of the Miscellaneous Estimates amounted to £729,495. He maintained that, in some respects, those Estimates were too high in 1835; but the sum they had now to deal with was £7,576,938, and the question was whether, in the Miscellaneous Estimates, they got an equivalent for this enormous amount of taxation. He need not dwell on the evils of taxation, which, besides taking money from the people, tended to restrict trade and manufactures, and checked consumption; but besides the payment of the money he considered that great evils arose out of the expenditure. There were moral evils arising from the expenditure of such a vast sum of money which nothing but necessity could justify; in fact, it was an incentive to knavery, for some people were accustomed to think that there was not the same harm in cheating the Government as in cheating individuals. Therefore, nothing but necessity would warrant such an enormous amount of taxation as that he had just referred to. He was quite willing to admit that taxation for the army and navy, which formed the defence of the country, was an actual necessity; but there was no necessity for many of the items in the Miscellaneous Estimates. In 1835, the cost of the army and navy was £11,730,073, while in 1863 it amounted to £25,796,269, being more than double the former amount; but the Civil Service and Miscellaneous Estimates had increased still more considerably — for they had risen from £2,393,182 in 1835 to £7,805,277, being considerably more than three times their former amount. He wished to know where was the necessity for this large increase. Owing to the confused state in which these Estimates were presented—though he did not on that account accuse any one of an attempt at fraud—it was often difficult to ascertain what any particular item was. For instance, there was a Vote for Kingstown harbour of £1,968, while the cost of that harbour was put down at £3,575. That was not the way in which

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  the money should be voted. The whole sum of £3,575 should be provided for, and what was received from the harbour should be paid into the Miscellaneous Revenue. In some cases part of the required money was voted, and in other cases the whole. With respect to the superior Courts of Law the whole money was voted, and the fees were paid into the Miscellaneous Revenue; but in regard to the County Courts the cost was £183,783, while the sum voted was £166,010, the other portion being paid by the fees of courts. This appeared to be a confused way of making up the Estimates. The Votes for some things were taken in two or three different places in the Estimates. Thus, in one place, the sum of £1,371 was put down for Bushy Park, and there was another Vote for it of £2,836. The same was the case with regard to Hampton Court and other items. For the Houses of Parliament a sum of £2,300 was put down in one place for fuel; in another place, coals, candles, and other expenses were stated at £1,150; and in a third place there was an item for warming and ventilating. Thus it was necessary to look into three distinct places to find the whole of that expense. He would now refer to cases of compensation for offices abolished. He was not one of those who contended that persons should not be compensated for loss of office or for superannuation, as probably the Government obtained services at a less price than they otherwise would, because people took office under the impression that they would be provided for for life; but where there was the opportunity of transferring persons from one office to another, he did not see why compensation should be given. The Bankruptcy compensations amounted to £15,091; but he thought that many of the officers might have been transferred to the new courts. He found in the Miscellaneous Estimates some items which ought never to have appeared there, as they properly belonged to the expenditure for the army and navy, such as the cost of furniture for the offices for the inspection of the infantry, £3 11 s. 1d.; for the furniture and repairs, &c, of the Hibernian Military Schools, £5,828; for the furniture of the Irish Commissariat Office, £106; and certain items for Bermuda and Heligoland, and for the Treasury chest, all of which ought to have been included in the army estimate. It was true that it might be said that it was as broad as
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  long, whether the money was paid under one head or another; but they all knew that bad accounts could not make the expenditure less, but they often caused it to be more. With respect to compensation, he found that the bailiffs in the Courts of Requests were compensated when those courts were done away with and the County Courts were substituted, and therefore he could not see why the bailiffs should not have been transferred to the latter courts. In one office the third clerk, who used to be paid £1,225 a year, received, on the abolition of his office, £750 a year. It appeared to him that that clerk might easily have been transferred to another clerkship. In another case a housekeeper, who used to receive £50 a year, got £49 6s. 8d. a year as compensation; and a messenger, whose salary was £70, obtained as compensation £46 13 s. 4d., though those persons might have been transferred to other places. With respect to superannuation, he must say that though he was in favour of the system, yet, when he saw a person superannuated at forty-five years of age, he regarded that as a considerable waste of money. The subject to which he would next advert was the Patent Office. He thought that so large a sum as £50,000 in one place, £19,000 in another, besides some smaller items, ought not to be voted for that establishment, and that patents should pay for themselves. He noticed that a great many fees were paid on account of Knights of the Garter and other orders of knighthood, and also upon the election of an Irish representative Peer; which, he thought, ought not to be charged to the public. He perceived a Vote of £870 for Hampton Court Road, another of £1,200 for Richmond and Kew Roads, and a third of £1,223 for the superintendent of county roads, South Wales. Those expenses ought not to be paid for out of the public purse, but out of the local funds; and he could never understand why Westminster Bridge should be placed on a different footing from that of other bridges, and be paid for by the public. Then, again, the police magistrates were paid in London by the Government, but in Manchester and other towns throughout the country by the inhabitants. In England three-fourths of the rural police was supported by the counties, but the corresponding force in Ireland was maintained at a cost of more than £700,000 out of the national purse.

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  He found that a considerable sum, which had been greatly augmented of late, amounting to £40,278, was given by the Government to the Nonconformist clergy of Ireland, as if there was not nonconformity enough already in the world without paying for it, and as if it were not of the essence of Nonconformity to be self-supporting. The expenses of criminal prosecutions, which used to be paid locally, were now borne by the nation, and they had here a striking illustration of the extravagance into which people were led when they were spending, not their own money, but that of other people. In 1835, the first year of the new system under which the Government settled the bill, the sum asked was £110,000, which seemed to have been much more than sufficient, as next year only £40,000 was required. Since then, however, the amount had been raised to £190,000, although in the meanwhile the Summary Jurisdiction Act had been passed, which did away with a great deal of the criminal business at the sessions and assizes. As to harbours of refuge, the Vote for Harwich had been denounced as a job; and he could not understand why there was any necessity for an expenditure of £6,300 on Port Patrick harbour, when there was such a good one at Stranraer. He now came to the Vote for Science and Art; and, while fully appreciating the objects in view, he felt bound to say that the money expended by Government did a gread deal more harm than good, for it damped and discouraged private exertions. Scarcely anything was done in London in the way of museums and art galleries except by the Government, whereas in other parts of the country institutions of that kind were established and maintained by local efforts. Experience had proved that voluntary undertakings were generally more successful than those promoted by the Crown; and in support of that view he might instance the two Great Exhibitions, the Zoological Society, the Society of Arts, and the Royal Agricultural Society, the last named having accomplished such vast improvements in stock breeding that the sheep and oxen of thirty years ago would not know those of the present day. In music, too, the country has made great progress in recent years, but not a farthing had been spent on that object by Government. The Vote for the South Kensington Museum had been raised to £122,000. The British Museum, which used to cost £22,000, now cost £90,000; and gene-
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  rally the items of the Vote had increased in the same enormous ratio. The Kensington Museum was lighted up at night for the benefit, it was said, of the humbler classes; but if it was to be of any good to them it should be taken to the Tower Hamlets or some other quarter of the metropolis where they lived. He believed that the rich merchants having property about the docks would most probably have made provision for the instruction and recreation of the people about them if the Government had not taken the matter in hand. A great deal had been said of the number of persons who visited the public museums, but it was by no means remarkable. A Return of the number of sightseers last Whitsuntide showed that 11,472 went to the British Museum, 10,200 to the National Gallery, 6,552 to the South Kensington Museum and so on. Of the total, 60,000 and odd, no fewer than 25,000 went to Hampton Court; but did anybody suppose they went to inspect the cartoons? No, the people flocked thither to see the chesnut trees and the gardens and to enjoy the fresh air. The public did not visit these collections because they had any particular interest in science or art. As many went to view the Lord Mayor's show as went to see the public museums at Whitsuntide; and if Greenwich fair were held now it would attract, he had no doubt, not 60,000, but 200,000. We had not the means of getting great picture galleries, the fact being that the best pictures were not in the market, and should not attempt to rival other countries in that respect. In his opinion the Government of this country had quite enough to do in conducting the general business of the nation, in considering questions which might affect the balance of power in Europe, and in keeping the peace of the world; and might safely leave Science and Art to take care of themselves. Art was beauty, knowledge was power, and science was truth, and would assert their own position with the progress of civilization. There was no man more sincerely and thoroughly in favour of popular education than he was, but he thought the enormous Vote for Education was injudiciously and extravagantly expended. He was not one of those who fancied that an educated man made a worse ploughman or shepherd than an ignorant one; but it was not expedient that all classes of the community should be educated at the public expense to the same

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  point. Such a system tended towards Socialism, and would tend to diminish industry and thrift, because it would relieve parents from what ought to be their great object in life—the training and instruction of their offspring. The Vote for Education had risen from £65,000 in 1835 to £1,110,000 in 1863. The worst of it was that the Government gave only to those schools which had money already, while others which were really in want of aid received none. He knew a case where the squire gave £40, the clergyman another £10, and one or two other persons helped to make up a sufficient sum for the school; but the Government added £75 more. There was undoubtedly a great deal of waste in this system. The certificated teachers cost too much for small districts, and, moreover, were often quite above giving elementary instruction, such as was required. The consequence was that the standard of education in these schools was generally too high for the class who attended them. There was no more miserable body of people than those who were educated above their means and position. Mr. Cobbett had an excellent essay on this subject, called, in his quaint style, "Education and Heddicashun," the former being defined to be "to bring up, so as to become useful in the world," and the latter "to fill heads with stuff and nonsense." In that article Mr. Cobbett said—
  "This nation absolutely swarms with young people of this description; they have no learning worthy of the name, not one of them possesses the smallest particle of literature or is competent for anything worthy the name of accounts; yet they think their case hard, they think themselves ill-used, they think that the whole frame of society is bad, because they can find no one who will, out of the fruit of his labour or study, give them the means of living without work; they lounge about the house of their parents, they spunge upon the funds of their friends, and when both of these will not or cannot keep them any longer in idleness, they resort to frauds of all sorts, or are destitute and miserable beggars; when, if their little hands had been taught to pick up stones and to weed the corn, and their tongues had been taught to bawl at the mischievous birds, instead of singing words at a school, they might have led lives of useful and patient labour—livea ending in ease and as much happiness as old age will admit of."
  His (Mr. Marsh's) idea was that the education of the country should be left to the property of the country, and that, if it were so, property would do its duty. It might be said that the education of the people had improved under the system of Government grants. True, it might be so; but it had progressed quite as much when
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  no assistance had been given. It should be recollected that almost every town had its literary or mechanic's institute, which flourished without any Government aid. The education of the middle classes had also improved within the last thirty years, and such a schoolmaster as Squeers, or such a school as Dotheboys Hall, could not now be found in any part of the country. Moreover, our ancient universities and academical establishments had adapted themselves to the spirit of the age, and Oxford especially had gone out of her way in the case of the middle-class examinations. Now, although the physical and material condition of the people had greatly improved within the last thirty years, he doubted whether there had been a corresponding increase in their moral improvement. For various reasons, crime ought to have diminished during that period. Thirty years ago there was scarcely anything like detection of crime, and at that time, too, many persons were constantly out of work, and often stole a leg of mutton, or a loaf of bread, but simply to get a meal. Now, when every one could get work, we ought to expect that those crimes, which were the result of poverty, would have diminished. But he found that, while the cost of our criminals in 1835 was £233,000, it now amounted to £812,000. In one department he observed that there were 10,466 convicts, who cost the country £359,000, which was £33 8s. a year, or 13 s. a week, per man, in round numbers. The respectable labourers and small tenants in many parts of the country maintained themselves with a much less sum, and he believed there were counties where the outdoor relief of the aged poor was not 13 s., but 1s. 10 d. a week. He noticed, too, that the 10,466 convicts had £21,015 given to them by way of gratuity, or pocket money. No wonder crime did not decrease under such a system. He was persuaded that a few pennyworths' of whipcord would do far more good than all this wasteful extravagance. The next topic to which he wished to direct attention was a rather delicate one—the Vote of £10,950 for Slave Trade Commissions. That was not a large sum, but it was connected with others of great amount. He found that 3,514 men and boys were employed on the African coast in the suppression of the slave trade, to say nothing of those serving off Cuba and elsewhere. If, according to the Navy Estimates, 75,000 men and boys cost

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  £10,736,000, it followed that 3,514 must cost £503,000, which, added to the expense of Commissions and other charges, made a total of £631,470. This is what we were paying for what was termed the suppression of the slave trade. If we were really suppressing the slave trade, he should not grudge the money, but the fact was, we could do little in that direction. His impression was, that if we were to leave the Spaniards of Cuba alone, and not irritate their pride, they would, of their own accord, put a stop to the slave trade in far less time than we could suppress it. We had already done enough, and having carried out a great measure of justice at a cost of £20,000,000, ruined many of our colonies, and reduced hundreds of families from wealth to penury, he thought we should abandon the Quixotic idea of constituting ourselves the knights-errant of the sea at a time when non-intervention was the order of the day. The extravagance which he had thus endeavoured to describe began soon after the passing of the Reform Act, and he was afraid it was an incident peculiar to representative institutions. Each constituent tried to get what he could for himself and his friends, and Members of the House of Commons, instead of going into Committee of Supply and endeavouring to reduce expenditure, wearied the House with preliminary Motions in order to swell the Estimates. Captain Grant's cooking apparatus was a standing dish, and the Crawley trial would cost the country a considerable sum for little more than the pleasure of finding a mare's nest. The Government was not chiefly to blame. For obvious reasons, indeed, they rather wished to keep expenditure within bounds; but the thing was literally pressed upon them. Frequent changes of the Ministry were one great cause of extravagance. Each Administration was easily tempted to make engagements with the view of pleasing as many people as possible, leaving to its successor the unpopular task of imposing additional taxation. From 1852 to 1855, when we had the good fortune to have three changes, the Estimates rose from £4,407,000 to £6,586,000. The independent Members of that House were the only persons who could put a stop to this system of extravagance. It was the duty of the Government to protect person and property, but there its vocation ceased, and everything else ought to be done by local management and individual exertion. It was this system which had made us the
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  great people we now were, and which had given us that self-reliance that was our national characteristic. It was the very life of our social system, and it bound class to class, not in the links of dependence, but in the kindred and mutualities of affection and interest. Indeed, it might be safely assumed that in countries where the Government did everything, the people would do nothing.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Civil Service and Miscellaneous Estimates have been for many years rapidly increasing, and ought to be reduced."— (Mr. Marsh.)
  MR. PEELsaid, he was not at all surprised that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Marsh), basing himself on the Return to which he had referred, should have been struck with the circumstance that the Civil Service Estimates of each year appeared larger than those of the preceding year. Although he had very justly made an exception as to the last few years during which they had not increased. He (Mr. Peel) readily admitted that it was a very legitimate object, not only to prevent their further increase, but if possible to reduce their amount. Without explanation it must certainly appear a very surprising circumstance that the Civil Service Estimates, having been £2,500,000 sterling in 1836, should have risen to £3,000,000 in 1844, to £4,000,000 in 1850, to £6,600,000 in 1854, and should now, in 1863–4, have reached £7,800,000; and any accidental circumstance occurring at any moment might make them pass the line of £8,000,000, or double their amount in 1850. No doubt if the views of the hon. Gentleman were carried out, and no money was granted for public education—if the large sums voted for the correction and reformation of criminals could be dispensed with—if the policy pursued for many years were altered, and no provision made for the suppression of the slave trade, these Estimates would show a very great reduction. But he thought the House would scarcely be prepared to adopt these changes without considerable hesitation, and the policy of doing so could not well be discussed with advantage on that occasion. His chief answer to the Motion of the hon. Gentleman was, that the increase which had taken place of late years in the Civil Service Estimates was much more apparent than real —that the civil expenditure of the country

  1349
  had not increased in anything like the same proportion as the Estimates had; and that the latter increase, where it had been unaccompanied by any increase of our total civil expenditure, far from being a matter for regret or needing correction, should rather be viewed with satisfaction and be allowed to develop itself to its full extent, because it resulted only from the carrying out of the beneficial principle of bringing the public expenditure as much as possible under the eye of Parliament and subjecting it to Parliamentary sanction annually renewed. He would not go further back than the year 1850. The greater part of the increased amount of the Civil Service Estimates shown before that year was caused by the measures taken in 1846 for transferring charges from local rates to the Imperial revenue, in order to lighten the burdens on land at a time when land was thought to be about to have a new burden placed upon it arising out of free trade. In that year the Government undertook to relieve persons interested in the payment of local rates from the remaining half of the cost of criminal prosecutions, from the remaining half of the cost of maintaining county and borough prisoners, from half the expense of the medical officers employed under the Poor Law, and from the whole expense of the salaries of district auditors and of the masters of workhouse schools. The transfer of those charges to the Imperial revenue caused an immediate addition to the Civil Service Estimates of £250,000. The hon. Gentleman said that, as soon as the local authorities ceased to have any interest in keeping down the amount of that expenditure it enormously increased. That was quite true up to a certain time, but the hon. Member had forgotten that the Government, taking notice of that circumstance, established a machinery at the Treasury for examining and checking these accounts, the result of which had been most satisfactory. Under its operation the expense of criminal prosecutions, which had previously reached £300,000, and even £350,000, had been brought down to £150,000, its present amount. Passing to the total increase in the Civil Service Estimates from £4,000,000 in 1850 to £7,800,000 in 1863–4, he was anxious to show that it had been for the most part caused by the transfer to those Estimates of payments already existing, but made under other heads or branches of expenditure. The
  1350
  hon. Gentleman had referred particularly to the large increase of these Estimates between the years 1853 and 1855. There was no doubt good ground in appearance for the observation; for there had been tin increase from £4,800,000 in the former year to £6,580,000 in the latter. But the hon. Gentleman seemed to suppose that that increase was attributable to the circumstance that they had not less than three Ministries in that brief space. He was able to furnish the hon. Gentleman with a different explanation of the matter. In 1854 the present Chancellor of the Exchequer brought in a Bill by which a very extensive transfer of payments was made from the Consolidated Fund and the gross revenue of the Customs and Excise to the Civil Service Estimates—a measure which was regarded by the late Mr. Hume and others as an important financial reform. After the Act passed there was a supple mental Estimate presented the same Session for the services which had been so transferred; and the immediate effect of that measure in 1854, the year in which it became law, was to increase the Civil Ser vice Estimates by the sum of £1,110,000. That amount was made up by payments for the Irish Constabulary, for the Metropolitan Police, Police Courts, for the Slave bounty for Reciprocity Dues, and other services. But while the Civil Service Estimates were thus increased, the charges on the Consolidated Fund were proportionately diminished. In 1853 the charge on the Consolidated Fund for Salaries and Allowances was £268,000; but, in 1855 it was reduced to £161,000, and now it was only £156,000. Then, for the Courts of Justice, in 1853 the charge on the Consolidated Fund stood at £1,107,000, and it fell in the year following to £493,000, and was now £690,000. The charge under another head, "Miscellaneous," which was £233,000 in 1853, was reduced in the year following to £183,000, and. stood at the same amount now. The total charge on the Consolidated Fund in 1853 was £2,510,000. In 1855, after the transfer which he had mentioned took place, it was only £1,723,000; and now it was £1,884,000; so that the total charge on the Consolidated Fund had been permanently reduced by £600,000, or £700,000 by the Act of 1854. The new charges on the Consolidated Fund since 1854 consisted of the salaries of the County Court Judges, and of the compensations for life granted to the holders of

  1351
  abolished offices in the late Testamentary Courts. But the full operation of that Act was not seen in its first year, for it was provided that persons receiving salaries out of the Consolidated Fund should continue to receive them out of it as long as they held their offices, and that afterwards the salaries attached to those offices should be transferred to the Civil Service Estimates; and as every year a certain number of offices fell vacant and were filled up again, the salaries were transferred to those Estimates, causing a slight addition to them, and a corresponding relief to the Consolidated Fund. Some also of the charges which were transferred by that Act had since that period very considerably increased, from circumstances for which the Government were in no way responsible, the charges being regulated strictly by the operation of the provisions of Acts of Parliament. The hon. Gentleman had referred to the slave bounties. In 1854 the amount paid under that head was only £15,000; but in the year 1863 it had risen to £86,000, the increase of £70,000 being entirely due to the increased activity in the slave trade and to the exertions of our cruisers, which received bounties proportioned to the number of vessels captured and of slaves liberated. The reciprocity dues were payments made to particular harbours in compensation for the loss of differential duties they would have collected from foreign shipping, but for international arrangements giving foreign vessels the same privilege as British shipping. In 1854 these dues were only £30,000, but in 1862 they were £53,000, and last year no less than £115,000. The Government, however, had, in this respect, anticipated the Motion of the hon. Gentleman, for, under the Bill brought in two Sessions ago by the President of the Board of Trade, a limit was imposed to the payments under this head, and the whole charge was to cease in ten years. In 1854—the year of transfer—the charge for the Metropolitan Police of London was £100,000; it was now £140,000, the increase arising from the growth of London and the consequent additions to the number of the police. In the charge for the Irish Constabulary, transferred in like manner, an increase of £100,000 had also taken place. He would not, however, take that increase into account because it might be considered by some to be part of the case of the hon. Member, but, adding together the increases
  1352
  which had taken place since 1854 under the three heads of the Slave Trade, the Reciprocity Dues, and the London Police, he found that the Act of 1854 had made an increased charge upon the Civil Service Estimates of no less than £1,250,000. Other transfers had been made to the Civil Service Estimates, besides those consequent upon the Act of 1854. In 1851 a Vote was taken, for the first time, for the London Parks and the Offices of Woods and Works, increasing the Civil Service Estimates by £80,000; but, on the other hand, there was a corresponding increase in the receipts of the Exchequer under the head of Crown Lands, from the revenue derived from which the expenses of the parks and of the two offices had previously been defrayed. The yield from Crown Lands in 1850 did not exceed £160,000; whereas the receipts from Crown Lands now paid into the Exchequer were upwards of £300,000, and that increase, of course, was partly due to the diminution of payments out of gross revenue arising from the transfer. In the Estimates for 1853, a Vote of £60,000 for the Merchant Seamen's Fund appeared for the first time in the Estimates. That fund had been originally formed quite independently of the Government, but it was mismanaged, and Acts were passed to bring it under Government control and to provide for any deficiency. By the first Act the deficiency was to be made good out of the Consolidated Fund, but by the Act of 1853 the fund was directed to be wound up, and disposed of, and the whole charge for pensions to be annually voted. The stock belonging to the fund sold for £150,000, which was paid into the Exchequer, and the claims have since been provided for annually by a Vote in the Civil Service Estimates. No new contributions from merchant seamen, however, were received, so that in course of time the Vote would disappear. There was another transfer to which he would refer—that of the postage for the public Departments. Previous to 1856 the various Departments provided in their respective estimates for their own share of the cost of posting the public correspondence. In 1856 this cost was collected together and formed into a separate Vote; and as it included the postage of the War Department and Admiralty, amounting in that year to £70,000, the effect was to increase the Civil Estimates by that amount, but not to increase the total expenditure of the country, because

  1353
  the sum was merely transferred from the Army and Navy Estimates to the Estimates for Civil Services. This would bring up the increase, arising wholly from mere transfers, to £1,460,000. Then, as to the County Courts, it was quite true that it was originally proposed that these courts should be self-supporting, that the officers should be paid out of the fees; but it was enacted that if these should be insufficient, resort was to be had to the Consolidated Fund. In 1857 it was provided that the salaries of the Judges should be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and that the registrars and bailiffs should be paid by salary; and that if there was any deficiency in the fees received to pay their salaries, it should be made up by a Vote in Supply. The effect of that provision had been to add £200,000 to the Civil Service Estimates for 1857. There had since been an increase in the receipts from the County Courts, and the amount chargeable on this year's Estimates was reduced to £166,000. Adding the increased charge in connection with County Courts to the other items he had enumerated, it brought up the total increase accounted for to £1,600,000, or rather more. The Vote for county police was entirely new. In 1857 it had been decided to give encouragement to the formation of an efficient county and borough police, by the payment of one-fourth of the expense from the Civil Service Estimates. An immediate addition of £145,000 was thereby made; and as the police increased in numbers and efficiency that Vote must be expected to enlarge its dimensions. The Government contribution of one-fourth to the police of England and Scotland amounted for the present year to no less than £228,000 relieving the local rates to that extent. He had now accounted for a total increase in these Estimates of £1,830,000. With respect to the fees paid in various public offices, the Government were aware of the abuses to which the system was formerly liable, and had already provided, whenever there was the opportunity, that all fees should be payable into the Exchequer, and that all charges formerly paid out of fees, should be voted by that House instead. This made a large apparent increase in the Civil Service Estimates. The sum paid into the Exchequer under the head of fees of regulated Public Offices in 1850 was about £50,000, it was now about£190,000. Before the year 1850 the whole establishment of that House was defrayed out of
  1354
  the fees in respect to private and public business; but in that year the amount was voted in the Civil Service Estimates; the Vote amounted to £60,000, and the fees paid into the Exchequer annually were between £60,000 and £70,000. So, with regard to a great number of other expenses which formerly used to be paid out of the fees derived from public offices, the fees were now paid into the Exchequer, and the full establishment was voted by Parliament. But fees were of two classes—fees received in cash, such as he had just referred to, and fees paid in stamps, and which were carried to the account of the Exchequer under the general head of Stamps. These fee stamps should also be distinguished from the revenue stamps. These fee stamps formed now a considerable portion of the public revenue. The Patent Office appeared to cost £50,000, and the hon. Gentleman had said he thought it ought to support itself. It was a new Vote, dating from 1853, but against it there was a full setoff, because the fees received amounted to £90,000, being nearly double what the House voted for the Patent Office. The expenses of the Probate Court too were formerly provided for out of the fees, but were now paid out of the Civil Service Estimates, and the fees go into the Exchequer instead. The Vote in this case appeared for the first time in 1858, and amounted to a very large sum — the charge for the Probate Courts of England and Ireland, and the Divorce Court of England, for the year 1863, amounting to £94,000. But, on the other hand, the fee stamps amounted to £118,000, which was more than sufficient to defray the expenses of the Courts. The cost of the Admiralty Court Registry, too, was £11,000, but the fee stamps of the Court amounted to more than £9,000. So that while the Estimates were increased by £150,000 for these three offices, the Exchequer received from the fee stamps a sum of £220,000, being a balance in favour of the public revenue of £70,000. Then, again, there was an item which was called in the Revenue Accounts "Extra Receipts." For instance, the House voted the full expenses of the Consular establishment in China, while the Exchequer recovered hack one-third of the expense from the Indian Government; so that if the annual Vote amounted to £60,000, the Indian Government was charged with £20,000 of the sum. Again, the Vote for the Copyhold Commissioners was £32,000,

  1355
  but the Government received back from them £19,000, paid into the Exchequer as extra receipts annually, so that the net charge was not very considerable. There were various other receipts of this kind, amounting altogether to about £70,000 a year, for which he was entitled to take credit in diminution of the Civil Service Estimates. If all the sums that might be set off in this manner against the Civil Service Estimates were added up, they would make a total of £2,220,000, which being deducted against the increase of £3,800,000, would leave a real increased charge of only £1,600,000. Nor was it very difficult to account for this increase. The Vote for Public Education in England and Ireland was undoubtedly the main cause of the increase amounting since 1850 to an increase of £900,000. In 1850 the sums voted for Public Education in the United Kingdom were £250,000; in 1863, they were £1,150,000. But here the Government had anticipated the proposal of the hon. Gentleman, and the new Code they had established would, among other beneficial results, have the effect of reducing the Vote for public education for Great Britain. The reduction for last year was £40,000, and he believed the reduction in the ensuing financial year would be even greater: £100,000 of the increase was due to the Votes for superannuations, which had increased by that amount in the last ten years. But the Government hoped to be able to devise some means by which its growth should be checked for the future, so far as related to the liability of the Treasury to make up the deficiency in the Pension Fund of the various Police forces. This increasing charge had engaged their attention, and means would, it was hoped, be found to stop the increase under this head. After the above deductions from the balance of £1,600,000, all that remained was £600,000, and this was the real debatable amount of increase in the Civil Service Estimates. He did not, however, mean that the same causes which had produced this increase had not operated in other ways. On the contrary, they had so operated: they had swallowed up all the reductions in different directions which had been made during recent years; but the £600,000 represented the whole positive increase since 1850. With regard to this sum, the House must bear in mind, that within the last few years, there had been many new charges and new
  1356
  offices created — for instance, the Civil Service Commission, the Charity Commission, and the Vote for the Land Registry Office. The Bankruptcy compensations, too, had been thrown upon the Civil Service Estimates by Act of Parliament. There was also an entirely new Vote, amounting to £35,000, for contributions in lieu of rates in respect of the Government property. It must also be borne in mind that of late years there had been many heavy charges of a wholly exceptional character. He might refer to the Vote for the Census, £170,000; to a Vote of £400,000 in two years for loss to the Treasury chest in supplying specie for payment of troops in China, and to others which were wholly exceptional. If all these deductions were made, it must, he thought, be admitted that he had considerably reduced the case of the hon. Gentleman. He did not deny, that during late years many Votes had shown a considerable tendency to grow larger. That for the Science and Art Department had increased from £20,000 to £120,000; the Vote for the London Parks was much larger than it was ten years ago; and so, again, with regard to the Vote for Public Buildings. He could only say that the Government would feel much indebted to any hon. Gentleman who would point out any means by which the Civil Service Votes could be reduced without prejudice to the public service. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government were as anxious to promote economy in the public expenditure as the House could possibly be. He did not think the hon. Gentleman had made sufficient allowance for the causes to which the increase of the Civil Service Estimates was due. But he trusted the hon. Gentleman would be content with having moved the Resolution, and induced the discussion of the subject which had taken place, and that he would not press his Motion to a division.
  MR. TORRENSsaid, the hon. Member who had brought the subject before the House (Mr. Marsh) had alluded to the expense on account of the slave trade. Now he (Mr. Torrens) desired to point out where a saving might very well have been effected in connection with the suppression of that trade. In the Session before last he moved for Returns relating to cases tried by the mixed Portuguese and British Commission at the Cape of Good Hope. Those Returns were well worthy of attention. In 1843 the Court was constituted, and up to

  1357
  1862 the Commissioner tried eight cases, for which he received an annual salary of £1,200 a year. That would be a pretty sum for each case. The arbitrator received for the nineteen years from 1843 to 1862 the sum of £800 a year, and but one case came before him all that time. In 1862 the office of arbitrator, then held by Mr. Surtees, became vacant, and Her Majesty's Government thought proper to appoint a gentleman who was resident at the Cape to perform the arduous duties of arbitrator. He could not help thinking that a stricter investigation of expenses by the House would have prevented that appointment. When the vacancy occurred in 1862 it was the duty of Her Majesty's Government to ascertain whether there was any work for an arbitrator to perform. He had been told that by treaty it was absolutely necessary that an arbitrator should fill the office; but this was not so, for it was distinctly provided by the Treaty of 1842 that if the arbitratorship became vacant, a magistrate at the Cape or one of the Judges of the Supreme Court might fill it. Now he could not help thinking that these cases showed, that if strict inquiry was made into expenditure abroad and at home, some considerable saving might be made in the public expenditure.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he thought the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Marsh) had done great service by his Motion, because he had induced the House to listen to a general statement of expenditure under the head of "Miscellaneous Estimates," which had practically doubled since 1844. He had heard the very able apology which had been made by the Secretary to the Treasury for the increase of that expenditure, and he was quite sure that the House would feel that this was an apology for the House itself, quite as much as for the Government of which the speaker was a Member. The broad fact stated by the hon. Member for Salisbury, he humbly submitted, reflected no credit upon either side of the House, because it proved that having, by our recent course of legislation, interfered in almost everything, we could not show an economy corresponding to our interference. Nothing could be more likely to occur. The Estimates had become so voluminous, that several leading Members on the Liberal side of the House below the gangway had declared that all attempts on their part to sift, item by item, were useless. Well, if this declaration
  1358
  were true—and if it had not been for the exertions of the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir Henry Willoughby), and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth (Sir Francis Baring), it would have been true without mitigation; if it were in any degree true, then it showed that the general tendency of recent legislation had been to spread a system of centralization which had proved extravagant in this respect—that the authority into whose hands the concentration of administration had thus fallen, had not only declared itself, but proved hitherto incapable of exercising efficient economy. They had heard the Secretary to the Treasury excuse this increase of expenditure by adducing the facts of the transfer of the expenditure in counties, of the transfer of the control of the expenditure in boroughs, and of the control of the expenditure of the Courts of Law to the Treasury and the Government. What did this all prove except that they were gradually rendering the Government of this country a sort of universal contractor. They dealt in law; they had not yet meddled, with physic; but they disseminated a very doubtful theology. He asked whether it would not be far better if these matters were left to local administration and local supervision? Was it not far better that the unfettered intellect of the country should, by a subdivision, be brought effectively to bear on the administration of these several departments of social government, so that by a direct and personal supervision that economy could be ensured which, according to repeated declarations, that House was unable to effect. The present system manifested a tendency towards centralization which was always extravagant, as proved in America, in our colonies, and in France. He, for one, was ready to assist in promoting a reduction of this expenditure, and to vote with the hon. Member for Salisbury, if he pressed his Motion to a division. If the Motion was not pressed to a division, then he would join in the endeavour to effect this object when the Estimates were produced, by going through the arduous but necessary task of examining them item by item.
  MR. W. EWARTsaid, the House was greatly indebted to the hon. Member for Salisbury for having brought this subject under its notice. He was himself disposed to recommend a gradual shifting of the charge for education to local residents, and that it should not be allowed to remain a burden upon the public exchequer. With regard to education, the tendency of the

  1359
  Government of late had been to make provision for it by local rates which was the natural and right system: he therefore approved the steps which the Government had taken in that direction, but he hoped they would go further. When the Schools for Science and Art were first founded, it was the intention of the Committee that there should be only one central establishment in London supported by Parliament, and that the schools throughout the country should be kept up by local exertions. A considerable saving to the public might be effected in the direction which he had pointed out.
  MR. MARSHsaid, that after the appeal made to him by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury, he would withdraw his Resolution.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

HARBOURS OF REFUGE.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: In the absence of my right hon. Friend the' President of the Board of Trade, who is unfortunately detained by severe indisposition, I have to appeal to my hon. Friend the Member for Sunder-land (Mr. Lindsay) not to bring on the Motion of which he has given notice. I assure him that nothing but necessity keeps my right hon. Friend away upon this occasion, and prevents him from discussing with him that very important subject. In the necessary absence also of my noble Friend at the head of the Government, I hope my hon. Friend will postpone his Motion till another opportunity.
  MR. LINDSAYsaid, he did not think it would be right to bring on the discussion of so important a subject as that which stood in his name, and which involved so large an expenditure of money, in the absence of the noble Lord at the head of the Government, and of the President of the Board of Trade. He was very anxious, however, to bring on the subject before the Budget, and he hoped his right hon. Friend would assist in getting him a day for that purpose. In the mean time he should fix his Motion for Friday, the 13th of March, on going into Committee of Supply.

AFFAIRS OF CHINA.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. LIDDELL,who had given notice of Motion, condemning further inter-
  1360
  ference with the civil war in China, said he felt obliged to postpone it in consequence of the non-production of the Chinese papers. As he could not find an open day before the Recess, it was his intention to bring the subject forward at the earliest possible opportunity after Easter.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock.

SAT FIRST IN PARLIAMENT
The Earl STRANGE, after the Death of his Father.
SAT FIRST IN PARLIAMENT

  BORROWING POWERS OF RAILWAY COMPANIES.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, that the other night the President of the Council had stated that the Government had under their consideration the propriety of bringing in a Bill for the purpose of carrying out the recommendations of a Committee of last Session with respect to the Borrowing Powers of Railway Companies. He (the Earl of Donoughmore) had since taken the question into consideration, and he was disposed to think that those recommendations would be insufficient without a general register of such transactions. He desired to ask the noble Earl, What were the intentions of Her Majesty's Government in reference to the recommendations of the Commissioners?
  EARL GRANVILLEmade some observations which were inaudible, but his Lordship was understood to say that the subject was under consideration.

UNITED STATES—NORTH AMERICAN ARMY—FEDERAL RECRUITING IN IRELAND.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE,in moving, according to notice, for Copies
  1318
  of any Reports which may hare been received by Her Majesty's Government respecting recruiting in Ireland for the North American Army, said, the enlistment of soldiers on the part of a Foreign State in this country involved a question of very considerable importance. It had, indeed, been always held, that a country could scarcely commit a greater infraction of the rights of another, or a greater breach of comity and international law, than by attempting to I recruit for its own service citizens who owed allegiance to the other Power. It was, for other reasons also, desirable to know whether the Government were taking steps, in the instance to which his Motion referred, to maintain the neutrality of this country. In Ireland, in former times, the law upon the subject was very strict, for the offence of enlisting in a foreign service was punished with death, and three men were, in point of fact, executed in that country in 1749, because they had enlisted in the French service, though we were then at peace with the French people. The severity with which the offence used to be visited was, however, very properly relaxed in 1819, when the Foreign Enlistment Act was passed, and a milder law, in accordance with the spirit of the present day, introduced. The offence continued penal, but the severer punishments were abolished, and other precautions were adopted against British subjects enlisting in the service of foreign Powers; and when, in 1823, a Motion was made by Lord Althorp to mitigate still further the penalties of the Foreign Enlistment Act, the proposition was supported by the noble Earl now Secretary for Foreign Affairs. Having said thus much, he would shortly proceed to advert to the fact, that recruiting for the Federal States had notoriously been carried on in Ireland with very little check during the last two years, without, so far as he was aware, any serious notice having been taken of those proceedings by Her Majesty's Government. He should, therefore, like to know, whether any remonstrances had been made on the subject to the United States; and whether any steps had been seriously taken to put an end to a state of things with which, as far as he could form an opinion, the common law would be found sufficient to deal? He was not, in order to prove the existence of that state of things, going to quote newspapers or letters, relying, as he did, so entirely on the notoriety of the facts, that he should be surprised if any Member of the Govern-

  1319
  ment should rise in his place and contradict the assertion that agents of the Federal Government had been indirectly engaged in recruiting in various parts of Ireland. Now he had no very high opinion of the efficiency of the Irish Government in its present form as a machinery for Executive administration, believing, as he did, the Lord Lieutenancy, with all its paraphernalia, to be an inefficient obsolete office; but it was, he thought, impossible that the Irish constabulary, who were, as a body, honest and intelligent, and who endeavoured in spite of many impediments to do their duty, should be entirely ignorant of what was going on, and should not have made some reports on the subject to which he was adverting to the heads of the Irish Government, and that they in their turn should not have made similar reports to the authorities at this side of the water. It was impossible, therefore, that the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs could be in ignorance on the matter—especially when there was scarcely a newspaper published in Ireland or in London in which some allusion had not, within the last year or two, been made to recruiting for the Federal army, as having been carried on in Louth, Tipperary, Cork, Carlow, Dublin, and other counties. Indeed, the noble Earl the Foreign Secretary himself, had adverted to the subject pointedly in his communications with the American Minister at the English Court, in which he stated, as appeared from the papers which had been published, and most truly, that if a balance were struck of the assistance given by British subjects, and by the supply of the munitions of war to the contending parties in America, that balance would be found to be greatly in favour of the Federal States. The noble Earl, no doubt, alluded not only to the Irishmen who were in the United States when the war broke out and then enlisted, but to those who had gone out from Ireland to America to enlist in the Northern Armies. If, he might add, he wanted further evidence as to the existence of recruiting in Ireland for those States, he might find it in the Returns of the Emigration Commissioners, who had, he understood, ascertained it to be an undoubted fact, that the emigration of single young men to the United States from that part of the kingdom had very much increased in the years 1862 and 1863 as compared with the previous years. Now, that was a very significant fact, when they
  1320
  considered that the vast proportion of assisted emigrants in Ireland were small farmers, with wives and families who would be useful to such emigrants in America. There could be no doubt that these young men were intended for the army, and not for peaceful industry, because British capital was not now being invested in America; and American capitalists were rushing to get army contracts, out of which they got more than any other investments. He would, however, in support of the case which he was endeavouring to make, mention one specific fact which had come under his own immediate observation. Not quite two months ago a man arrived at a central station in the county of Galway, and at once proceeded to make it known that he had come to engage some thousands of men and to take them across the Atlantic, tempting them by the offer of good pay. He made known his business to the publicans in the town where he first stopped, and then went on to another town and did the same thing, promising so much per head for every person whom they succeeded in engaging for him. The fame of his operations naturally spread, and several persons being anxious to obtain the "bringing money" for enlisting, the police properly thought they had a right to interfere, and he (the Marquess of Clanricarde), being in the neighbourhood, was the magistrate before whom the party was brought. It was then found, that instead of being an American, he was a native of a village within a few miles of the place where he was taken into custody. He had been in the American army, and had received a gun-shot wound, and had come home to pick up recruits for the Federal army. He said— and produced a paper to the effect—that he was enrolling labourers for a great industrial work in America, and he appeared anxious to assume the character of an American citizen and an American functionary. Now, it was very well known to their Lordships, but perhaps not to the persons this man engaged, that a contract made with an Irishman in Ireland would be worth very little in New York; but remembering the proceedings of the United States Government with reference to recruiting, their Lordships would agree with him that an Irishman landing in New York and wishing to repudiate the contract, would have very little chance of doing so. It was a remarkable thing that he had no more money about him than

  1321
  was sufficient for his personal expenses, and when asked to explain how, with such means, he was to engage the labourers and pay the publicans for their aid, he referred not to any great railway contractor or engineer, or other person generally found to be in connection with such schemes, but to the American Consul. The American Consul at Liverpool gave him, he said, a letter to the American Consul at Dublin, and if they were written to it would be found that he was solvent and well able to discharge all his engagements. The man was a little astonished when he told him that he should not admit his American pretensions, that he knew him to be an Irishman, and should treat him the same as any Irishman who had never left his native village, and that the reference to American authorities would not avail him one jot. It was transparent that it was intended to evade or infringe our law. But how did the Americans act towards us in 1855, under circumstances, not indeed similar, but in some degree analogous? What was their doctrine when it was a question of paying the passage of, not American, but our own subjects home, or to some British Colony, in order that they might there, if they pleased, enlist in Her Majesty's army or navy? The whole of the papers have been laid before Parliament, and it appeared that at that time our Consuls at New York and elsewhere reported that a number of labourers out of employment, who were British subjects, had applied for means to go home, with the view of enlisting in the army or navy of their own country. Sir John Crampton, then Mr. Crampton, thought it right to take the opinion of an American lawyer upon the American law, which made it an offence to hire or retain any labourer for any employment or under any pretence to go beyond the jurisdiction of the States, in order that when there such person might be enlisted. In the opinion obtained, a case was quoted, in which the Supreme Court had held that the words "hire or retain" were susceptible of a very broad interpretation, and the lawyer stated that he was inclined to think they would be held to reach every case of payment for the removal of a person from the States; that the intent would be left to the jury; and that the Judge would be bound to tell them that no scheme could be devised which would allow the intentions of the law to be defeated. Accordingly, a person was tried under the
  1322
  law referred to, and for enabling a British subject to go to Nova Sevre, there to enlist in the British army or navy, he was sentenced to two years imprisonment and 100 dollars fine. The American Government withdrew the exequaturs of the Consuls, and insisted on the removal of Mr. Crampton, upon the ground of that law having been infringed — they would not allow us to send home our own men, because it might be inferred that when here, if they had no other employment, they would enlist; but now they were sending emissaries to Ireland to entrap, not their own, but our countrymen in their service. There was no parallel, although there was analogy between the two cases. We wanted British subjects sent home who were anxious to enlist in our service. The Americans wanted to inveigle and enlist British subjects in Ireland for service in the United States. Perhaps he should be told that the Government knew nothing of the case, and that it had never been reported to the Irish Government. He regretted that the wholesome practice of the Irish Government communicating with men of position in the country had been abandoned, and that they depended entirely on the police for information. The police had acted in this case, and therefore it was for them to have reported it. There was, however, no evidence produced by the police against this person, and therefore he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) discharged the prisoner with an admonition, and satisfied himself with taking steps which he thought would have sufficient effect to stop the man's operations in that neighbourhood. But he came next to a case as to which he was surprised that no papers had been laid before Parliament, because action had actually been taken on it—the case of the American cruiser, the Kearsage, which came into Cork harbour, and began to enlist men under the very nose of our Admiral, and almost alongside of our flagship. That certainly was rather more than could be stood. From the informations which had been taken on the subject, it was pretty well known what had happened. It was bruited about that the United States' Government were giving good bounties for men, and some of the idle seamen about Queenstown went on board. The vessel then sailed off for Brest, and on arriving there the men were put ashore and told that they might return if they liked and take service for three years. However, from some change—probably from change

  1323
  of orders—the men were returned to Cork, and then the Government prosecuted them under the Foreign Enlistment Act, and six of them were now held to bail. He wished to know, however, what proceedings had been taken against the United States' Government in the matter. It was a paltry thing to go merely against our own men. They were held to bail in £20 each, with one surety of £20 each, so that, if it suited the American Government, for £240 they could quash the whole transaction, and we should have no redress for this outrage committed on the dignity of this country by a Government which had insisted on the removal of Sir John Crampton, and had withdrawn the exequatur of our consuls on a much smaller pretext. It was remarkable that these men were dismissed in the American uniform, and we had heard that American uniforms were to be seen in other parts of Ireland, even in Dublin. He was not a believer in the existence of any disaffection in Ireland. Disaffection could not go to any great length without some cause for it, and no people had less grievances to complain of than the Irish from the Imperial Government. Ireland was, without doubt, the freest country in the world—not even excepting Great Britain. A man was free to say or do there pretty much as he pleased, and the only persons who appeared to be under any restraint were the police. All men of education and intelligence put a proper value on this freedom; but, unfortunately, among the lower orders there did prevail some mischievous old traditions. They were always delighted with the idea of secret societies, and many of these secret societies were productive of great harm. Some of them were innocent and harmless; but it was neither innocent nor harmless to spread among the people the notion of a connection with the United States, or to permit the distribution of American uniforms. These things ought to be dealt with with a strong hand, not towards our own people so much as towards the Government which ventured to take such liberties. He had no hesitation in saying that if the Confederates had done one-tenth of what the Federals had done it would have been put a stop to long ago. But the neutrality of Her Majesty's Government had been from the first a partial neutrality, and in that respect they had not properly maintained the honour of the country. But what he wanted to know now was, whether the House might be allowed to see the Reports
  1324
  which, no doubt, the Irish Government must have forwarded on the subject, and the remonstrances which he trusted the Secretary of State had addressed to the Government of the United States on the subject? The noble Marquess concluded by moving, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for
  "Copies of any Reports that may have been received by Her Majesty's Government respecting recruiting in Ireland for the North American army."
  EARL RUSSELL: My noble Friend will excuse me if I do not advert to many of the topics on which he has touched, and deal only with the tangible points of the statement he has made. I do not think it necessary to enter into the reasons why I was in favour of the repeal of the Foreign Enlistment Act in 1823, nor shall I discuss whether the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is useful or has become obsolete, or whether the conduct of the American Government in 1855 was proper or not. As far as I can understand the drift of my noble Friend's argument it is that, because the American Government acted improperly in 1855, therefore Her Majesty's Government ought to act improperly now. But my noble Friend must excuse me if I decline to adopt that view. The real question which my noble Friend has brought forward is that of foreign enlistment in Ireland. I quite admit that it is an offence against the law and against the amity which the American Government is bound to show towards Her Majesty's Government to commit such acts. Wherever such an offence can be proved it ought to be prosecuted by Her Majesty's Government, and it certainly furnishes a subject of complaint against the United States' Government if it has authorized it. My noble Friend has said truly enough that we have complained from time to time that there was a process of recruiting going on in Ireland on behalf of the Federal Government. Last year I presented papers— correspondence between Mr. Adams and myself—on the subject of British subjects in the Federal armies; and those of your Lordships who have read that Correspondence may remember, that our complaints were of a general nature, because we had not evidence of particular cases in which the offence was brought home to any agents of the American Government. Mr. Adams on each occasion denied the truth of these allegations; and on one occasion he said that, until I had brought it to his notice,

  1325
  he did not think there was anybody in this country who could have believed it possible that agents of the United States' Government were employed either in England or in Ireland in enlisting British subjects for the Federal armies. With that general allegation, and with that general denial, I could only wait until there was a case in which particular evidence could be produced. In the month of January of this year a person named Pike stated that a person named Finney had gone about enticing men to enlist. It was stated that this Finney had invited men to go out and get good wages in the United States, and afterwards told them that they would get much larger sums of money if they would enlist as soldiers in the United States' array. The information received at the Home Office was referred to the Irish Government. The matter was investigated, and no evidence except that of this person named Pike could be had; and it was alleged that this man Pike had been engaged by Finney, as an assistant, but had not received the reward which he thought sufficient, and that being excited by that circumstance, he invented this story of the recruiting. It was further alleged that the real object of Finney was to engage men to be employed on railways in the United States. The Law Officers of the Crown in Ireland investigated the matter, and they were of opinion that, if there was no other evidence but that of Pike against this man, that evidence would not be believed, and that consequently there was no chance of a conviction in a court of law. When they gave that opinion, the Home Office here arrived at the conclusion that it was not desirable to institute a prosecution. It must be borne in mind that the United States' Minister has said, and said with perfect truth, that owing to the great number of men employed in the Federal army, and owing to the great number of railway works which are now in course of construction in the United States, there are many railway companies in America which are anxious to obtain men and ready to pay them high wages. It is very possible that, under these circumstances, some companies may be trying to engage men in Ireland. The Chicago Railway Company is known to have hired men for the purpose of working on their line; and we have information that this person, named Finney, hired a room in Dublin a few days ago, and there engaged a considerable number of young men who are going, or
  1326
  are gone, to the United States. My noble Friend must perceive that even although it could be proved that many of those young men are arriving in New York, tempted by the large bounty offered to them, many enter the army of the United States, yet if they go from this country without any contract to enter the army, if they go for the purpose of obtaining good employment and good wages, and wait till their arrival in New York to decide whether they will be railway labourers or soldiers, there can be no ground for a prosecution under the Foreign Enlistment Act. My noble Friend has told us, in the most circumstantial manner, of a person known to have been engaged, according to his opinion, in the horrid plot of taking men in contravention of the Foreign Enlistment Act, to be employed in the army of the United States. One would have expected that a person with the activity, the patriotism, and the knowledge of law possessed by my noble Friend, would have been able to pursue this man to conviction; but there the story ended, my noble Friend saying there was no evidence, and that therefore he had dismissed the charge. I have heard of a man in the county or the city of Cork, who was said to have engaged labourers on the promise of a large amount of wages or a large amount of pay; but it appears that he began by asking the persons who were to enter into the contract with him for threepence each, and when he had collected a sufficient number of threepences, he and his comrades went off. That was not a transaction from which the United States gained much. Another case alluded to by my noble Friend was that of a man-of-war at Queenstown. Undoubtedly there were a number of men found on board the Kearsage, a United States man-of-war, who were said to have been engaged as seamen, and to have been carried off. On hearing this report, I at once wrote a complaint to the Minister of the United States in London, informing him of the facts that had reached me, and at the same time telling him that I had heard the Consul of the United States had been instrumental in enlisting these men, and expressing a hope that a thorough inquiry would be made. The Minister of the United States wrote to say that, so far as the Consul was concerned, he denied all knowledge of such a transaction, and his Excellency furnished me with a copy of a letter from the captain of the Kearsage, which is as follows;—
  "United States' steamer Keartage,
  At sea, Deo. 7.
  "Sir,—A party of men, either by connivance of the crew or otherwise, were concealed on board this vessel on the night of her departure from Queenstown, the 5th ult. These men, I learn, were in expectation of being enlisted in the service of the United States after the Kearsage had proceeded to sea, but found their mistake. To have turned them ashore at Brest would have been to open to them the temptation to enlist on board the Florida. I therefore determined to leave them at Queenstown as soon as it was practicable. You will please notify Admiral Jones that I informed him that no enlistments would be made at Queenstown. I have, therefore, sent on shore this party, that no charge of subterfuge may be alleged in the premises.—Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
  "JNO. A. WINSLOW, Captain.
  "E. G. Eastman, Esq., United States' Consul, Queenstown."
  I do not know that the captain could have behaved otherwise than he did. When we found that these men had been enlisted, Her Majesty's Government consulted the Law Advisers of the Crown, and they directed that a prosecution should be instituted, and, as far as I know, the prosecution is going on. A suspicion may arise that the captain was aware that these persons had been enlisted before they went on board, but all I can say is, that the captain gives the explanation which I have read for your Lordships. At all events, these men are not serving on board the Kearsage, and therefore, in that case, we have no complaint against the United States' Government. With regard to the United States' Consul, that officer denies any knowledge of the matter, and therefore nothing more can be required of him. These are the cases which have occurred in the present year. I quite agree with my noble Friend, that every case of this kind ought to be watched; and the police in Ireland, and the Government of Ireland, are ready to watch them. I also quite agree with my noble Friend, that no violation of the Foreign Enlistment Act ought to be permitted without a prosecution, if there is evidence to sustain one; and on that principle Her Majesty's Government have determined to act. My noble Friend has said what he has never been able to prove—that the neutrality of Her Majesty's Government has not been an impartial neutrality. Well, the United States' Government are of opinion, that from the very beginning Her Majesty's Government have taken a side favourable to the Confederate States, and that allowing the latter belligerent rights—which they say induced other nations of Europe to allow them the
  1328
  same rights — was very partial conduct, because it was very favourable to the insurgents. I have always contended against that pretension. We considered that, as the Confederate States comprised so many of the States of North America, were inhabited by so large a population, and contained so much of the wealth that had existed in the United States, our decision was not a partial but a perfectly impartial decision, founded on the fact that the Confederate States were entitled to belligerent rights. No doubt it may be said, and it has been said, that this advantage has enabled them to derive very considerable supplies, and so enabled them to carry on the war against the Federal States. On the other hand, the Confederate States made their complaint with respect to the conduct of Her Majesty's Government, whom they have all along conceived to be partial as against them. I must say that, though they are entitled to impartial conduct, they are not entitled to any other conduct at our hands; because, though recruiting for the Confederate States does not take place in this country, as far as we are aware, conscription does take place as regards British subjects residing in the Southern States. When we have endeavoured to obtain redress for this, we have found that the Consuls, who were appointed when all the American States were united, have on a sudden been driven from the Confederate States, and there is no one there who can take up the case of British subjects, who are very frequently forced into the Confederate ranks against their own will. This and other hardships are inflicted upon British subjects in the Confederate States, and from the loss of Consuls they are not able to make complaints and obtain the redress to which they are entitled. But, my Lords, with regard to the whole matter of this war, it has been the determination of Her Majesty's Government to pursue an impartial neutrality. That course has been steadily pursued. I see no reason myself for our taking part either with the Northern States or with the Southern; and we are determined to continue to maintain a course of impartial neutrality.
  The EARL of DONOUGHMORE: I think, my Lords, we should feel indebted to the noble Marquess for bringing this subject forward. The fact of agents of the United States' Government having been, for a considerable period, endeavouring to entice the Irish subjects of Her Majesty

  1329
  into the military service of the United States is notorious. I have listened with the greatest attention to the speech just made by the noble Earl, and I must say that I never heard the noble Earl repudiate the statement of the noble Marquess opposite. The noble Earl will not say whether he will admit that statement or deny it. Now, I will just ask your Lordships to compare the conduct of the Government in this matter with the course taken by them in reference to the rams at Birkenhead, which it was alleged had been built for the Confederate States. The noble Earl mentioned one case in which there appeared to be some prospect of prosecuting to conviction, but as the Law Officers of the Crown in Ireland had expressed their opinion that there was not sufficient evidence to convict, the noble Earl, or rather the Home Office, retired from the prosecution. But I will ask the noble Earl whether, when, on the 3rd of September last, he ordered the rams to be detained, he had received the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown here that there was sufficient evidence to prove a contravention of the Foreign Enlistment Act? If he had not received that opinion, the noble Earl's course of action was founded on principles entirely different from those he had pursued with regard to what has taken place in Ireland. And this is what the noble Earl calls impartial neutrality. No sensible man would consider the principles which influenced the noble Earl in both cases as similar. Now, what the noble Earl's motives may be in the matter I cannot tell. I will not say what his reasons are for neglecting this important subject—for refusing to exert the vigilance and the power of the Government to protect the poor people of Ireland from being tempted from their homes to die on a foreign soil in a quarrel not their own. Are those reasons to be found in the fact that they are poor Irish only, and that he has no sympathy for them? The noble Earl denies the imputation. But will he deny, that if the same attempt had been made to enlist Englishmen, the authority of the Government would not have been very quickly exercised to protect them. There is a society in Ireland which has been often mentioned in the public newspapers, and I wish to obtain some information from Her Majesty's Government as to whether their attention is directed to the proceedings of that society. I allude to the society called the Fenian Brotherhood. I do not know the meaning of the words. Perhaps the
  1330
  noble Lord opposite can explain it. The object of this society is to recruit for the American army in Ireland, and to promote a feeling of disaffection to the British Crown; and it holds out a vague hope to its members that, when the American war is finished, the Federal army will turn its arms against this country. The proceedings of this society are so contemptible, it would be ridiculous and absurd to discuss them seriously. Of course, no man of any sense or prudence could think that any danger could arise to this kingdom from their idle vapouring. "Cannot you let it alone," was a favourite maxim of a former colleague of noble Lords opposite, and perhaps the Foreign Secretary would do well sometimes to remember it; but this principle ought not be applied to the Fenian Society. Contemptible as it is at present it may at last become inconvenient to the Government and difficult to be put down. So long as the Members confine themselves to mere words, and to ridiculous articles in certain newspapers, I concur with Her Majesty's Government in the wisdom of ignoring them. But when their proceedings assume the phase of enlisting men for the armies of a foreign Government, when they commence drilling men in Ireland for the service of the United States' Government, I think—not for the interests of Her Majesty's Government, because it is utterly impossible that any such result as is expected by the Members can ever arise, but in mercy to the poor deluded men themselves—that it is the duty of the Government to come forward and put a stop to these proceedings. It is notorious that the Fenian Brotherhood have enlisted a large number of the Irish people in the interest of America— that some of the members walk openly about the streets in the American uniform. It is, therefore, time for Her Majesty's Government to act in the matter, and by a strong hand to suppress this ridiculous movement. If they do not take action in time they may, perhaps, in the end be driven to shed the blood of their own people.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I have failed entirely to make out, from the speech of the noble Earl, any case against Her Majesty's Government. Upon the question of neutrality, as your Lordships are aware, both the North and the South were constantly bringing accusations against the Government for being partial and showing favour to one side or the other, and these

  1331
  charges are also made in this country by persons who sympathize with the one or the other. It is quite clear that any person who endeavours to remain neutral between two opponents will be open to such charges, and exactly the same attacks have been made against the Government by those who in this country sympathize with one or other of the belligerents. But these accusations are, in fact, the best proof that the Government have been actuated by a sincere wish to maintain a fair and impartial position between the two contending parties. The noble Earl taunted the Government with want of courage in dealing with these enlistments, which he said were now quite notorious. Well, but if they are notorious, why does not the noble Earl offer some specific proof of their existence? The Government have given to the police instructions of the most positive nature to make inquiries on this subject. And yet the only cases of which we have knowledge are of the most trumpery character. In one case a man was said to have engaged a clerk and an office for this purpose, but he left without even paying the unfortunate clerk. Another case attracted great attention on the part of the Government. A factor engaged several hundreds of men to work upon an American railway. This was said to be merely a colourable pretext, and the men, we were told, were really recruits for the service of the United States. The Government immediately made the most rigid inquiry, and the factor who was charged with this offence came to the office of the Chief Secretary, and proved there, by incontestable documentary evidence, that those persons were really engaged to work upon the railway; that the railway company were suffering from a dearth of labour; and that these supposed recruits were engaged bonâ fide to supply this want. Does the noble Earl opposite think it would have been proper, on the part of the Government, to have interposed obstacles in the way of a legitimate transaction of that kind? The noble Earl alludes to persons who go about wearing the American uniform. I have seen persons wearing the French and Italian, and many other different uniforms, walking about the streets of the metropolis; but it would never occur to any of your Lordships that this was a fact which required the action of the Government. What sort of action, then, is it that the noble Earl wants? There was only one case which appeared, on inquiry, to bear
  1332
  out the charge of enlistment for the military service of the United States. The Government submitted the whole evidence to the Law Officers of the Crown in Ireland, and their distinct advice was, that the evidence was not sufficient to lead to a conviction. Now, would it have been courage, or would it have been simplicity, on the part of the Government to have disregarded that advice, and to have taken the law into their own hands? If noble Lords are of opinion that the Government ought to have done more and to have gone further, I really think they ought to have produced some better information than the Government possess to show that recruiting is really carried on in Ireland by the United States' Government.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: I wish to remind my noble Friend who has just sat down, that he has omitted to answer one point — whether Her Majesty's Government has received, through the police, any information in regard to the fact that persons are now being drilled and taught military exercises in Dublin, Cork, and other large cities? And, if so, whether they had taken any steps in the matter?
  EARL GRANVILLEcould say nothing as to the etymology of the word "Fenian," but the attention of the police had been directed to the military drilling which was said to be going on in Ireland. He could not at that moment give any detailed information on the subject, but this he could say—that the police had come to the same conclusion as that which seemed to have been arrived at by many of their Lordships —namely, that the organization was a perfectly contemptible one.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, in reply, said, he would withdraw his Motion; but in doing so, could not allow to rest upon himself, and upon his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Donough-more), the reproach which was cast upon them by the noble Lords who sat upon the Treasury Bench, that, knowing cases in which there had been breaches of the Foreign Enlistment Act, and the law of the land, they did not prosecute and bring to conviction the offenders. It was evident that the Government in this House, when they cast this reproach, were not aware of the position to which the magistrates of Ireland were reduced, who were not allowed to search into matters which concerned the peace of the country. The police took such inquiries into their own hands, and gave no information about them to the unpaid

  1333
  magistrates, but brought whatever they could find out to the stipendiary magistrate, whom alone they obeyed. The Government had ceased to consult persons of property and influence in the country. A noble Friend, a Lord Lieutenant of a county, told him that the men who had served in the militia of that county had been drawn away, and were now serving in the United States' army; and that he had not heard a word on the subject either from the Government or the military authorities.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.