Sitting of 17 March 1863

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS — Ordered — Public-houses.
First Reading—Sale of Gas Act Amendment [Bill 61]; Writs Prohibition (No. 2) [Bill 62]; Statute Labour Roads and Bridges (Scotland) [Bill 63]; Statute Labour Roads and Bridges (Scotland) Transfer [Bill 64]; Thames Embankment (South Side) [Bill 65].
Select Committee — on Thames Embankment (North Side) Bill, nominated.
Committee— Consolidated Fund (£10,000,000).
Report— Consolidated Fund (£ 10,000,000).
Third Reading — Post Office Savings Banks [Bill 22]; and passed.
Bill withdrawn—Writs Prohibition [Bill 34].

TICKETS OF LEAVE.—QUESTION.
MR. PERRY WATLINGTONsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If the following conditions are not still endorsed upon Tickets of Leave granted to Convicts in England; and, if not, whether he will lay upon the table of the House a copy of the Conditions upon which such Licences are now granted:—1. The power of revoking or altering the Licence of a Convict will most certainly be exercised in case of his misconduct. 2. If, therefore, he wishes to retain the privilege which by his good behaviour under penal discipline he has obtained, he must prove by his subsequent conduct, that he is really worthy of Her Majesty's clemency. 3. To produce a forfeiture of the Licence it is by no menus necessary that the holder should be convicted of any new offence. If he associates with notoriously bad characters, leads an idle and dissolute life, or has no visible means of obtaining an honest livelihood, &c., it will be assumed that he is about to relapse into crime, and he will be at once apprehended and recommitted to prison under his original sentence?
SIR GEORGE GREY, in reply, said, the conditions referred to were not, and never had been, in force in England. If the hon. Gentleman would move for the form of the licence under the Act, and the notice endorsed upon it, there would be no objection to produce them.

BANKRUPTCY RETURNS.—QUESTION.
MR. MURRAYsaid, he wished to ask Mr. Attorney General, When the Annual General Return, judicial and financial, required under the 67th section of the Bank-
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rupt Act, 1861, to be framed from the Returns made to the Chief Registrar of the Court of Bankruptcy, will be laid before Parliament?
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, in reply, that some delay had occurred in obtaining the Returns from the country, but that he hoped to lay them on the table the first day the House met after the Easter recess.

RIOTS AT CORK.—QUESTION.
MR. VANCEsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If he had received any Report of the damage which had been inflicted on the citizens of Cork during the riots which took place on the evening of the 10th of March, and if any of the perpetrators of such outrages had been made amenable to justice; if not, what steps the Government intended to take for that purpose?
SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, that no doubt considerable injury had occurred in consequence of, the disturbances which took place at Cork on the night of the 10th of March. The Government had cause to be aware on the previous Saturday that it was probable that some disturbances would occur, and in consequence of a requisition, addressed to the Government, eighty additional constabulary were sent into the town. During the night in question considerable rioting took place in Cork, and those tradesmen and other citizens of the place who had illuminated their houses had their windows broken, and the Mayor of Cork himself was roughly handled. About four o'clock in the morning a body of infantry was sent from the barracks; but when the soldiers arrived where the disturbances took place their services were no longer necessary. He believed that some of the perpetrators of the outrages had been brought before the local courts and were likely to be made amenable to justice. In consequence of a requisition forwarded to the Government, and of a communication from the Mayor of Cork, the Government had offered a reward of £50 for the discovery of the disloyal perpetrators of those outrages.

PUBLIC-HOUSES.—LEAVE.
MR. SOMESmoved for leave to bring in a Bill for closing Public-houses on Sundays. The hon. Member said, he would defer entering into an explanation

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of the details of the measure until the Motion for the second reading.
MR. PACKEsaid, it would be contrary to justice, and entirely opposed to the feelings of the people of this country that accommodation should not be afforded for supplying refreshments at public-houses on Sundays. Though he was opposed to improper drinking and riotous conduct on Sundays, yet he thought the Bill now sought to he brought in for entirely closing public-houses on Sundays would be fraught with such injustice, especially to the poorer classes, that he should take the somewhat unusual course of opposing its introduction.
SIR GEORGE GREYstated, that having been communicated with by the hon. Member who proposed to introduce this Bill, he told him, that as it was unusual to oppose the introduction of a Bill, he should offer no opposition to the Motion for leave to bring in the Bill; but he gave the hon. Gentleman no hope that he would assent to the Bill on the second reading. Subject, therefore, to the understanding that he must not be supposed to give any sanction to the measure, he was willing to assent to its introduction.
MR. BAINEShoped the hon. Member (Mr. Packe) would not persevere in opposing the introduction of the Bill, which had been asked for by thousands of the most worthy, the most intelligent, and the most religious of the population. It was in principle the same as that which had been applied in Scotland, where it had been found to succeed thoroughly—and not merely to have succeeded, but to have received almost the universal assent of the people and even of the publicans. Perhaps the Bill might require some amendment, but that could he done in Committee.
MR. ROEBUCKbegged to give notice that in the very improbable event of this Bill being read a second time, he should, on its going into Committee, move the addition of a clause including every club in London on the Sunday in its provisions.
MR. HORSFALLsaid, he was surprised at the opposition to the Bill. It appeared to him that the law was most inconsistent. The sale of bread and meat and necessaries of life on Sundays was prohibited; but the public-houses were thrown open to the people, where they might purchase intoxicating liquors. He could not understand that system of legislation. In his constituency the Bill had the support not merely of a large portion
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of the people but of the publicans. He should certainly vote for the Motion for leave.
MR. PACKEsaid, he would not persevere in dividing the House on the question of leave.
Question put, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill for closing Public-houses on Sunday,"
And there being several voices in the negative,
The House divided:—Ayes 141; Noe3 52: Majority 89.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. SOMES and Mr. PEASE.

GAME LAWS.

  SELECT COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERrose to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the operation of the laws relating to Game. The hon. Member said, that until he saw the Amendment of the hon. Member for Whitby (Mr. Thompson) on the paper, he was in hope that there would have been no objection to this proposal. The grounds for that hope were the feeling which he knew pervaded the country, and the apparent desire of the House last Session to have the matter fully investigated. He understood that last year hon. Members on both sides, not only of the House, but of the Game Law question, were in favour of an inquiry; and his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, in reply to a question on the subject put by the hon. Member for Thirsk (Sir W. Gallwey), admitted that inquiry was necessary prior to any alteration of the law, and said, that if a Motion were made for inquiry in the course of the next Session, he should not oppose it. Soon after that a Bill came down from the House of Lords, and was passed. It was possible, therefore, that some Gentlemen who thought it desirable to have an inquiry before the Poaching Act was passed might think it unnecessary when that measure had been carried. He believed, however, it would have been more satisfactory to all concerned had the case for that Act been more fully and deliberately examined. Had they had an inquiry before the Bill — which came down from the other House a Night Poaching Bill and went back a General Poaching Bill—was brought in, it might have saved much discussion and several of the divisions that took place upon it. The hon. Member for Whitby,

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  however, had now given notice of an Amendment on his Motion, and in that Amendment the hon. Gentleman said, that the Motion ought to be postponed until the House had longer experience of the working of the recent Act. In his opinion, however, the present position of that Act justified the demand for an inquiry. The Act in the hands of the lawyers who had to administer it had been found a most difficult measure. Difficulties had arisen in regard to its interpretation; there had been delay in giving judgment, and there had been contrary decisions. At last Chief Justice Erie had given an opinion on the question, which, of course, coming from such a quarter, had great weight. It must be remember-ed, that when the Bill came down from the House of Lords, it threw the onus probandi on the defendant.; but a majority of the House removed that obligation. The decision of Chief Justice Brie restored the Act to the shape in which it came down from the other House, putting practically the onus probandi upon the defendant, and making the possession of game, under suspicious circumstances, evidence upon which a conviction might be obtained. He did not say that that was contrary to the opinions of a majority of the House, but he did say that it was contrary to what was supposed to be the Bill at the time it was passed, and therefore that there was reason for inquiring whether the fact was as he stated; and, if so, whether the law was what the House wished it to he. There was yet another and a stronger reason for inquiry—namely, whether it was desirable that new powers should be given to the police for the protection of one particular kind of property. He doubted, indeed, whether the Act did not give the rural police powers which they had never possessed before with regard to any kind of property; but there could be no doubt about it, so far as game was concerned. It had been said that the Act had been successful, and that it had tended to prevent the crime of poaching. If that was so, did it not remove from the preserver some portion of the necessity he was formerly under of watching for himself? If the new law was successful, he could not imagine that gentlemen -would be so fond of paying money to keepers and watchers that they would do so to the extent they thought necessary before the Bill came into operation. And the question arose, at whose expense were these additional
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  precautions against poaching to be taken? That was an inquiry which he could assure the House the ratepayers—in other words, the tenant farmers—had been asking in many places since last Session. That point ought to be deliberately considered by a Select Committee. Again, in the passing of this Act, Parliament embarked upon a new course of legislation; and the House ought to consider bow far they wished to pursue it. The Bill as it came down from the House of Lords defined poaching to be "having game unlawfully in possession;" as it went buck to their Lordships, it was altered to "game unlawfully obtained." The difference was not very clear; but the difficulty which was felt in the matter showed that they were clothing game with a character different from everything else. The hon. Member for Berks (Mr. Walter) strongly insisted on the necessity of declaring game to be property. The Bill, however, passed the House without that having been done. Whether that course ought to have been taken or not, there could be no doubt that the passing of an Act, under circumstances which rendered it necessary to alter the definition of the offence, made a fresh inquiry indispensable; and the time had now arrived when they should finally determine whether or not game should be regarded as private property. These were the grounds on which he (Mr. W. B. Forster) would reply to the suggestions of his hon. Friend the Member for Whitby, that they should wait for some time, in order to see how the new Bill worked. He now came to the general reasons why he pressed for an inquiry into the Game Laws. Sixteen years ago a Select Committee sat upon this subject. Their investigations lasted two Sessions, and they published two large blue-books, which he had lately been studying, and which he found to be at once informing, and in some respects amusing. It was not likely that any new Committee which the House could now appoint would exceed the industry or ability which the former one had shown; but there were many circumstances that rendered the prospects of another inquiry more hopeful than they were sixteen years ago. At that time the country had just concluded the severe contest on the Corn Laws, and there was a good deal of opposition between country and town, which he trusted had now disappeared. Of that opposition he could find many traces in the

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  blue-book, and there was no doubt that it had greatly interfered with the action of the Committee. But the abolition of the Corn Laws had rendered it also desirable to discuss what was called the economical question of the Game Laws —namely, how far the farmer, who was now exposed to the competition of the whole world, was weighed down by the quantity of game which was kept upon his land. There was also another reason why an inquiry would be more hopeful at the present juncture. There had been, for the last ten or twenty years, a growing wish on the part of all classes to consider the condition of the labouring poor. He (Mr. Forster) was not going to prejudge the question whether it was for the interest of the poor that the Game Laws should or should not be altered; but still it was the opinion of many that such should be the case, and he thought that the point was at least worth discussion. It appeared, too, that the operation of the existing laws had Dot diminished, but, if anything, had rather increased the offence of poaching. He had carefully gone over the statistics, but owing to the constantly-varying manner in which the Returns were made out from year to year he had found it impossible to make any exact comparison. He found, however, that in the three years 1858–60, there had been an average number of 8,590 cases per annum of persons brought before the magistrates charged with offences against the Game Laws. He believed that that was an increase, but he was hound to add that there did not appear to be any increase in the more serious crimes resulting from poaching. He did not think, either, that there was any increase in the number of persons imprisoned—a fact for which he accounted in two ways:— First, he was inclined to attribute it to a growing desire on the part of the justices to administer the law in a more lenient manner; and secondly—which was not so satisfactory a reason—he believed the greater demand for game had so increased that the illicit dealers had been able to supply the poachers with money with which to pay the fines. In considering what the House should do to put a stop to poaching, the first thing they had to consider was, what were the special temptations to the offence of poaching. He thought they might he comprised under three heads. First, the love of sport. He was told that that was less prevalent now than formerly among the lower
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  classes, and that the old sporting poacher had gone out of date. But he did not know why that should be so. The love of sport had not diminished amongst the gentlemen of England, and he did not see why it should have done so amongst the peasantry. The second temptation was the hope of gain, strengthened by the greater facilities which now existed for getting game to market. But he believed the great cause why poaching continued, and must continue, notwithstanding any laws they might pass, was the existence of over-preserving in places bordering upon densely-populated districts. The amount of poaching was determined more by the quantity of game preserved in any given neighbourhood, and by the density of the population near, than by any other circumstance. The way, therefore, to get rid of this particular offence was to get rid of excessive preserving. He was no sportsman himself. From accidental circumstances he had not begun to shoot when he was young, and it was not likely that he should now take it up, except at a target. But he could fully understand and sympathize with a love of sport; and he did not believe that it would be kindness to any class in the country—to the farmer or to the labourer—wholly to exterminate game. He believed that a moderate amount of it did no harm, but was rather an advantage, because it offered an inducement—though he thought that inducement had been somewhat exaggerated—to gentlemen to reside upon their property in the country, and thereby increase the prosperity of those around them. He believed that it was a great advantage to train the country gentlemen to reside on their estates, and to become good working justices; but they must take care that they did not at the same time train the peasantry to be criminals. Last year there was some discussion whether a poacher was a thief. In some cases he was, and in others he was not; but he believed that though the poacher did not usually begin as a thief, he often ended by becoming one. Of course, a gentleman had a right to over-preserve if he liked. It was to be lamented that he should do so, but still he could not he legally prevented. But while it would he a cruelty to the labouring man so to alter the law as to induce him to break it by poaching, on the other hand they ought as legislators to do all in their power to diminish the temptation to which he was exposed, by discouraging excessive

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  preserving. Now, a most important question was, were they proceeding upon right principles in their efforts to prevent poaching? That there was something very peculiar in the position of game was obvious, or the chief-constables would not have memorialized the House last year against the employment of the police, directly or indirectly, in its preservation. But it was most essential, if they wished to repress poaching, that the law should be clear, which was at present by no means the case. Besides, the law had not the support of public opinion. There was no country in the world in which the law, especially as it regarded property, was so generally respected, and yet by no class of its people was poaching looked upon as standing in the same category with other crimes. He supposed it would be admitted that to take an egg would be held to be as much poaching as anything else; and yet the hon. Member for Denbigh (Mr. Main-warning) last year complained that his keepers were principally employed in preventing persons from searching for eggs for the neighbouring gentry. The country gentlemen, therefore, could not look upon poaching as theft, or they would not countenance such a practice as that referred to by the hon. Member. Whatever might be the case with regard to its words, the law was anything but clear as to its principle. It was yet undecided what was the legal nature of this crime, whether it was in the nature of larceny or not. An illustration of this uncertainty was supplied by a case tried not two years ago before Mr. Justice Willes, in which some rabbits had been taken by poachers on an estate of the Marquess of Exeter. The rabbits were seized at the Stamford Station, and the dealer commenced an action against the persons who had taken them from him. The case was tried at the next assizes. Mr. Justice Willes said, that if a person went upon land belonging to the Marquess of Exeter and killed rabbits, and then carried them away and sold them to a fishmonger, the servants of the Marquess had no right to go to the fishmonger's shop and take them away from it; that the property was in the fishmonger, although the taking of the rabbits on the land was an act of trespass. The learned Judge also declared that he could not understand how such a law should exist; because, if a man had land, and chose to keep pheasants upon it, he never could see why the law of larceny should not apply to such a
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  case; for, according to all principle, the pheasants should belong to the man who created the property, just as much as though they were domestic fowls. ["Hear, hear!"] The Gentleman who cheered would, no doubt, vote for his Motion; for if they agreed with the learned Judge that the law should be altered, that was surely a good reason for inquiry into the matter. [Mr. NEWDEGATE: What is the date of that decision?] It was at the summer assizes of 1861. The verdict was against the Marquess of Exeter. Surely, when a Judge stated that the law ought to be altered, that was a good reason for inquiry. There was, however, an appeal from the verdict then given, on the ground of misdirection of the jury by the Judge, and the rule was argued about the beginning of 1862 by four Judges of the Common Pleas. All the four Judges in the mean time had had their attention called to a case which had been decided some considerable time ago, and all four gave a contrary opinion to that previously given by Mr. Justice Willes, that learned Judge himself being one of them; and a new trial was granted. The case came on in the Exchequer Chamber, and was determined only a month or two ago. It was argued before Lord Chief Baron Pollock, Mr. Justice Blackburn, Mr. Baron Martin, and Mr. Baron Wilde. The decision as reported was headed to this effect:—" Rabbits—property in animals ferœ nalurœ—rabbits started and killed on the property of another the property of the person on whose land they are found." Mr. Baron Wilde, while concurring in the ruling of his brother Judges, after referring to the former state of things, said that at present there was a vast quantity of game in this country which never stirred from the enclosed property of the landowner; but it was too late now for the courts of law to meet this change of circumstances by declaring a right of properly in game, and that any legislation establishing an absolute or qualified right in the owner of land to property in the game on his estate would be consonant to justice and to the policy of the common law. Now, although the proposition was stated at the heading of the report of these decisions, that rabbits, wherever started, are the property of the person on whose lands they are killed, yet he (Mr. Forster) could not ascertain that the law was so settled; and, indeed, he had received precisely opposite opinions on the question from eminent

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  lawyers. Surely such statements as these, corning from the judicial bench, showed the necessity of having this question inquired into, and inquired into without delay. With regard to the question of property, if the House thought fit to grant a Committee of Inquiry, he could only say he should go into it with a mind unbiassed as to how they should solve the question of property in game. He should certainly go into the inquiry with this feeling—that they ought to rest the law as far as possible on property alone. They ought to find how far there could be property in game, and on that rest their measures for its protection. It was to be observed that when Justice Willes said he could not understand why a pheasant should not be the property of the man who preserved land for its support, that was on the supposition that he could identify his property. But he (Mr. W. E. Forster) thought it would be very difficult to decide about meum and tuum in the case of animals which on one side of a hedge belonged to one man, and on another side belonged to another, and when in the public road belonged to neither one nor the other. He thought the Committee should go into that question with a feeling that it was rather a scandal that it had not yet been decided. He should be prepared to act on this principle:—Let them give a man this right in property, as far as possible, without infringing the principles upon which property was founded; but let not the owner expect anything else; let him not expect to have protection beyond that which his right of property gave him. The Committee, he thought, should settle not only this question, but should remove every relic of the old forest and feudal law which still remained. They should inquire whether the gamekeeper was at present an official; if so, he ought not to remain so. A private policeman was contrary to the temper of the times. Then, if game were property, it must be settled whether it was not the property of the occupier of the land; whether it was not his own like the crops and the cattle on the ground, and whether, being his own, he had not the right to kill it when and how he pleased. He thought he had pointed out two or three topics which were quite sufficient for the consideration of the Committee. Then, again, there was the question whether the law could do anything towards discouraging the present excessive system of preservation. He thought, that if the Chancellor
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  of the Exchequer could not give up his game duties, it was quite possible that those duties might be so arranged as to fall upon the preserving, rather than upon the killing of game. Then, again, it was to be considered whether the passing of the Act of last Session, combined with the Parochial Assessments Act, did not bring forward the subject of the rating game in a way which the House ought to consider. In the country there was a great deal of feeling about this rating question. They asked why land which went to the support of game should escape its due share of rating. Why, it was asked, should not woods be rated? Then, also, came the inquiry whether, when a right of shooting was let for a considerable sum, that also should not be assessed to the poor rate—whether it should not be rated in the same way as a farm? Again, according to the Parochial Assessment Act, the new valuations were often made on actual rent rather than on the intrinsic value of the land, and so it sometimes happened that A with 1,000 acres of land on which game was preserved paid on a rating of 15 s. an acre only, while B with 1,000 acres on which game was not preserved paid on 20 s. an acre. Yet A's land might be more productive than B's. Thus B paid a disproportionate amount of rating. The game, in fact, consumed the fruits of the land, and increased the demands on the rate, and yet was the only produce of the land which escaped being rated. Then he came to the way in which the game laws were administered. He did not wish to speak disrespectfully of the county magistrates —a body of men whose services to the country were inestimable, by whom justice was administered more equally than it would be by perhaps any other class, and of whom he had himself the honour to he one; but still even magistrates were men, they were not angels—and no doubt it was rather a difficult thing for a man who was himself a lover of sport, and who went to expense in the preservation of game, not to feel some degree of animus against a poacher. He was aware that a magistrate did not decide in his own case, but it was impossible that he should not be actuated by the feeling of his class. At any rate the idea that such an animus existed, was prevalent amongst the class from which the criminals came. Why should not a poacher be tried before a jury at quarter sessions? The reply would pro-

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  bably be that it would be an unkindness to the defendant to force him to find bail; but the choice might be given to him as by recent statute, in cases of petty larceny, to be tried by the magistrates if he preferred it, without a jury. Thus, at least, the impression of an unjust feeling would be removed. The last point to which he should advert was this:—They ought to look into the question whether the penalties against the Game Laws at the present moment were not higher than for other offences against property of equal value, and especially whether the revenue regulations were not used so as to increase these penalties. He was obliged to the House for the attention they had given him, although his opinions might he somewhat at variance with those of the majority. He hoped he had given reasons to induce them to grant this inquiry. He asked for that inquiry in order that such legislation might be attempted as would increase the comfort and improve the morals of the labouring population, get rid of the last remaining vestige of the old forest law, and promote concord between landlords, farmers, and labourers. Believing that it was the earnest desire of the House at all times to perpetuate this feeling, he begged to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the operation of the Game Laws, and to report whether in their opinion any, and, if any, what alterations are required therein.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELD, in seconding the Motion, said, that as he had supported the second reading of the Bill of last Session, but had not voted for the third reading, he might, perhaps, he allowed to recall the circumstances under which that measure was introduced. The Bill was read a second time on the 14th of July, and so strong was the opposition to it that thirty: divisions took place before the measure became law. The promoters alleged that the crime of poaching had increased, that every winter murderous assaults occurred between gamekeepers and poachers; and they produced considerable effect upon the House by citing the opinion of the chief constables of different counties in the midland and northern districts, who stated that the crime of poaching had now assumed a somewhat new shape, and that whereas formerly it was the isolated act of individuals who were either actuated by: n love of sport or were driven into it by distress, it was now the result of organized bands, who went out at night, and after sweeping the preserves, returned home
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  with their spoil along the highway and despatched it from the next railway station; openly defying the constables who thus saw them go to the covers and saw them return with the result of their nocturnal depredations. Admitting these facts, it was argued on the other side that in a matter so important, involving so many difficult and delicate relations —those of landlord and tenant among the rest—it was impossible at so late a period of the year that justice could be done. They therefore asked for a postponement of legislation. Those who, like himself, had supported the second reading felt the difficulty; and when he saw the shape which the Bill assumed in Committee—its very title being changed—he felt that he could not vote for the third reading, and was anxious that a Committee should inquire into the subject. The parties affected by this question were the lovers of sport, the ratepayers, the farmers, the police, and, lastly, the general public; and it was in the interest of all those classes that he now supported the Motion. Neither this House nor the country wished, he believed, that this legitimate English pastime should he destroyed, but rather that such safeguards should be placed round it as would allay jealousy and ill-feeling. With regard to the ratepayers, they were of opinion that the police rates should not he devoted to keep up a body of men who might possibly be employed as amateur watchmen and gamekeepers. The farmers had a fair right to be considered in the question, and he was sure that the public, who complained of the inquisitorial provisions of the Bill, had a right to inquiry. If the inquiry were conceded, it would no doubt be conducted in the fair and impartial spirit which had characterized the speech of the hon. Member, and he earnestly hoped that the Committee asked for would be appointed.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into the operation of the Laws relating to Game, and to report whether in their opinion any, and if any what, alterations are required therein."
  MR. THOMPSONsaid, that if his hon. Friend (Mr. W. E. Forster) had brought forward this Motion last Session, before the passing of the Act for the Prevention of Poaching, he should have heartily supported it; but to legislate first, and appoint a Committee of inquiry afterwards, was a proceeding so extraordinary

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  that it was only to be justified by showing that the Act had produced mischievous results of such a character ns called for immediate remedy. He had been neither surprised nor disappointed to find that his hon. Friend had brought forward no proofs of such mischief; and as his hon. Friend was far too acute a man not to see how much his case would have been strengthened if he could have adduced any proofs of the failure of the Act, it was safe to assume that none could be procured. On the other hand, very striking benefits had resulted from the passing of the Act, and of these he would give the House some idea by reading extracts from letters and returns furnished to him from his immediate neighbourhood by those who were best qualified to judge—the head constables and chiefs of the rural police. From York the chief constable wrote —
  "Four regular poachers have abandoned poaching altogether, and the remaining known poachers pursue that calling less Frequently. A B has given up poaching since the new Act came into operation, and is now earning his living by working as a labourer; C D is now working as a labourer; E F is earning his living as a smith; and G H as a joiner."
  From Knaresborough, which, though a very small town, had always been famous for its breed of poachers, the superintendent of police wrote—
  "The Prevention of Poaching Act has materially lessened the depredations of poachers in this division. We have had five convictions under it, all police cases. Several notorious and professional poachers have abandoned their evil courses and taken to earning an honest living; others, seeing my determination to enforce the provisions of the Act, have left the neighbourhood."
  The inspector of police at Hull said—
  "The Game Act of last Session has had considerable influence over the poachers in Hull. The greater part of the poachers who resorted to Hull came out of the country, particularly out of Lincolnshire, and only remained here a short time; these men are seldom seen now. Three men who reside in Hull, and were regular poachers, are now following other occupations—namely, A B, now working as an excavator at the enlarging of the Victoria Dock; C D, now employed at Messrs.; and E F, working as a labourer on the dock-side."
  The head of the rural police in the North Riding said—
  "My impression is that the Act, if properly and judiciously carried out by the police in accordance with the recent decision of the Court of Common Pleas, will answer its purpose, and materially prevent, if not entirely suppress, night poaching. I have received no complaint of any single constable having improperly exercised his powers under the Act. I think this important. It is most undesirable to make the police in any
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  way game watchers, but they can carry out this Act in furtherance of their other duties, while watching roads and other places where thieves are expected to return home with their spoil."
  The next report was from the Skyrack division of the West Riding, furnished by the superintendent stationed at Leeds, who said—
  "In this division there has been a decrease of persons apprehended and summoned since the passing of the Act. There are several men known to me who, previous to the passing of the Poaching Prevention Act, lived by poaching only, but are now partly working for a living. I do not think there has been sufficient time to test the operation of the Act, as the police had not sufficient power to interfere before the decision of Chief Justice Erle."
  The last was from the head of the rural police in the West Riding, who wrote—
  "In those districts where poaching was most extensively practised the Act has worked well. Before Chief Justice Erle's decision there was so much uncertainty in the law that convictions were given with hesitation. Since that decision that hesitation has been removed, and the course is clear. The decision, however, was only given a short time since, but we all feel that the Act is likely to work well if it has time given it to be tested. In the Doncaster and Knaresborough country, where poaching was much carried on, many men have given it up altogether, stating that the risk is now too great. The chief constables of Lincolnshire and Derbyshire, from whom I have heard on the subject, concur with me in the opinion that the Act will work as well as any Act can that is not very stringent and unpopular."
  That testimony was remarkably consistent and went far to show that the Act was working well—quite as well as its friends could have anticipated. But the Poaching Prevention Act bore date August 1862, only seven months ago, and a well-known decision in the Court of Common Pleas, which had added much to its efficiency, had been given on the 24th of January— not quite two months since; so that the law might be said to have been in full force only two months. If the Committee, which his hon. Friend moved for, were granted, its Members would be in this difficulty— that they must either take the results of this short trial as recognised facts to influence their Report, and perhaps to form the basis of future legislation; or, if they considered the time too short, and the results too recent to be trustworthy, they must throw over the latest legislation on the subject into which they were appointed to inquire, although aware that its working was most satisfactory. His hon. Friend had laid great stress upon the importance of the question whether game was

  1567
  to be made property or not. It was doubtless one of those important and difficult questions which must prominently occupy the attention of any Committee on the Game Laws, and the Act passed last Session had a very material bearing upon it, because for the first time it had placed game, at least partially, under the protection of the recognised guardians of the property of the public. The late Act, therefore, was, as it were, a great experiment to show whether the step which had been taken towards making game property went far enough, or ought to be carried further. The law respecting game was certainly, as his hon. Friend had remarked, in a very anomalous and doubtful state, as was well known to all county justices. The law recognised the possession of game, licensed the killing of game, and sanctioned its sale and purchase, but stopped short of making it property, and thus created a privileged class of plunderers, who, until the passing of the Act of last Session, could flaunt their ill-gotten booty in the very faces of the police with perfect impunity. It was not necessary for him to detain the House by pointing out the numerous evil consequences resulting from training up the police to ignore a particular class of transgressors, who, if that branch of their profession was overstocked, could turn their attention elsewhere. He trusted he had shown that the Act of last Session was working well, that a great experiment was being tried on a confessedly difficult subject for legislation, and that it would be premature to appoint a Committee of Inquiry. He wished to state distinctly that the Amendment, which he was about to propose, was not brought forward in order to defeat or elude inquiry, but to postpone it until a sufficient trial of the late Act had been made. He begged leave to move as an Amendment,
  "That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the operation of the Game Laws, should be postponed until further experience shall have been obtained of the working of 'The Prevention of Poaching Act, 1862.' "
  MR. PAULLrose to second the amendment. He had given notice on the first day of this Session of his intention to move for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Game Laws, and his reason was because he believed at the time that the result of the thirty divisions upon the Bill at the close of last Session was to render it nugatory. Had the Motion for
  1568
  inquiry been made last year, he should have had no hesitation in supporting it; but when, from the information which they had all recently received, it was found that the Act was working well, he thought it undesirable that the question should he re-opened before ample opportunity had been given of seeing whether the Bill was successful in its operation.
  Amendment proposed.
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the operation of the Game Laws, should be postponed until further experience shall have been obtained of the working of 'The Prevention of Poaching Act, 1362,' "
  — instead thereof.
  SIR GEORGE GREY: My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster), in making his Motion, stated truly that during the discussions on the Game Bill, which came down from the House of Lords for our consideration at the end of last Session, I was asked whether I would assent to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the operation of the Game Laws. I thought that at that period of the Session an inquiry could not be satisfactorily conducted; but I said that I should be willing to assent to the appointment of such a Committee in the ensuing Session in the event of any hon. Member bringing forward a Motion to that effect. In redemption of that pledge, I feel bound to support the Motion of my hon. Friend who has now moved the appointment of a Committee. When I look into the state of this question, and to what has taken place in both Houses of Parliament, I think that such an inquiry is not only not unreasonable, but that it is called for. In 1828, a Committee of the House of Lords was appointed to inquire into the operation of the Game Laws. That Committee went fully into the subject and made several important recommendations which, after an interval of two or three years, were made the subject of a Bill which was proposed by the late Lord Althorpe and which became law. That Act —the 1 & 2 Witt. IV. c. 32, contains the substance of the law with regard to game, and with the addition of the Night Poaching Act, 9 Geo. IV., and the Act of last Session, constitutes the law on the subject, with the exception of those fiscal laws to which it is not necessary to advert, and which require the payment of a cer-

  1569
  tain sum for certificates to kill, and for a licence to sell game. The results of the labours of the Committee of 1828 were, I think, most beneficial. They recommended several important modifications of the Game Laws as they had previously existed. First, they recommended that a property in game should be recognised by allowing it to be sold through licensed game-dealers. They also did away with the qualification previously required to kill game, and authorized any person, who had taken out a certificate, to kill game, subject only to the ordinary laws of trespass. The Night Poaching Act contained severe provisions —and very properly severe provisions— against persons going armed at night in pursuit of game. That Act has long been in operation, and many convictions, I am sorry to say, take place under it every year. Let us look at the facts of the case in connection with a most important point —its connection with crime. There is a fact which we cannot overlook, and which we ought to inquire into. The fact is, that a large proportion of the crime of the country is connected with the infringement of the Game Laws. Not only is a large proportion of the crime of the country connected with offences against the Game Law, but there has been a great and continuous increase in the amount of crime of this description. It is only since 1857 that we have had accurate statistics of crime laid before Parliament. I find that in that year there were of summary charges brought before magistrates for the infringement of the Game Laws 3,567, and of cases of night poaching and destroying game summarily dealt with, 1,883—making altogether, 5,534 summary charges for offences against the Game Laws. I find that in the year 1861—the last year for which we have complete Returns—that 8,563 cases were brought before magistrates for summary adjudication—that out of these there were no less than 7,007 convictions. Coming to 1862, the Returns for which are not before us, but which arc in course of being prepared, the number of cases brought before magistrates for summary adjudication was 10,135. I am not able to state what number resulted in convictions; but here was an increase of from 5,534 in 1857 to 10,135 in 1862, cases brought summarily before magistrates for infringement of the Game Laws. This excludes altogether the most serious class of cases under the Night Poaching Act; under which persons are committed for
  1570
  trial at the assizes for various offences, for going about at night armed in pursuit of game, and for acts of violence connected with poaching. I think that is a state of matters which demands the serious consideration of the House. In 1841 a Committee of this House was moved for to inquire into the Game Laws. That Committee was granted, and one of the main reasons why the Government assented to that Committee was the connection which appeared to exist between crime and the Game Laws. I must say that that reason is stronger now than it was then. I am bound to say also that I think that this increase of crime is in some degree owing to the great increase of game and to the excessive preservation of it, though I entirely agree with those who are in favour of a reasonable preservation of game with a view to that legitimate sport which it is desirable to encourage, and which no man, I think, wishes to destroy. The hon. Gentleman who seconded the Amendment (Mr. Paull) took the earliest opportunity this Session of giving notice that he would introduce a Bill to make game property. That is an idea which has been gaining ground of late. There is a good deal to be said in favour of it; but considering the state of the law, the decisions of courts of law, and the many questions which must be weighed before any Act can be passed making game property, I think that a careful inquiry ought to be made into the subject. I understood that the hon. Gentleman, as soon as notice of this Motion for the appointment of a Committee was given, withdrew his notice of the Bill. The law, as it at present stands, is certainly in a most anomalous state. It is understood to rest on a dictum of Lord Coke, that where game started on one property is killed upon it, it belongs to the owner of that property; but that if it passes over the boundary of that property and goes into another property, and is there killed, it belongs to the person by whom it is killed. I think there are ample grounds for inquiring into the state of the law before we assent to the proposal made by the hon. Gentleman that game should he made property. The only reason urged against the proposed inquiry is that the Act passed last Session, which it is said will be a cure for all the evils complained of, has been only a short time in operation. I cannot think that is a sufficient reason for negativing the Motion of my hon. Friend. If it was

  1571
  desirable last Session that an inquiry should take place into the existing Game Laws, I think it is more desirable now. It is important that we should have one general view of what the operation of the Act of last Session has been throughout the country. The facts stated by the hon. Member who moved the Amendment will be laid before the Committee, and they will form a part of this general view of the operation of that Act. I have the satisfaction of knowing that the opposition I gave to that Bill, in conjunction with many others, led to essential modifications of it; that that opposition removed most objectionable provisions in it, and especially that arbitrary and unconstitutional power by which an individual policeman could confine a person for an indefinite time and upon mere suspicion. I believe that the Act as it passed this House was calculated in many cases to be a useful Act; but I believe, at the same time, that it has not succeeded in accomplishing the great object of its promoters—namely, the breaking-up of the gangs of poachers which, especially in Cheshire and in other parts of the north, go out armed at night and carry on poaching upon a scale which makes it impossible for the police to interfere with them except at great risk of life. The amount of crime arising from the Game Laws is most unequally distributed. We find there are counties, such as Cheshire, in which the crime abounds; while there are counties, such as Warwickshire, not differing essentially in the character of its population, in which during the time over which the Return moved for last Session extends there has been only one case of serious assault arising from poaching. I think the House ought to consider what are the causes of this crime being so frequent in some counties while in other counties the crime scarcely exists. I willingly assent to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the Game Laws in redemption of the pledge that I gave last Session. Before I sit down, I wish to say that I think the decision of one of the courts of law upon the construction of the Act of last Session has been misapprehended by some hon. Gentlemen who have taken part in this discussion. The case referred to came, I believe, before the Court of Common Pleas, and it was this:—Some poachers had been apprehended on a high road, fresh blood and feathers were on their nets, and it was evident that they had just come off some
  1572
  land in pursuit of game. The decision of the court was not, as I understood it, that the onus probandi in every case was to be thrown upon a person in the possession of game on a highway, but that it was for the magistrates to determine whether the circumstances given in evidence were such as to lead them to believe that the terms of the Act applied to the persona brought before them. It is a misapprehension, therefore, to suppose that the police are about to assume some new power in consequence of the decision of the Court. Last Session I promised that I would support a Motion for a Committee of Inquiry, and in fulfilment of that pledge I shall vote for the Motion of the hon. Member.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, as the House had been informed by the right hon. Baronet that Warwickshire was free from the crime of poaching, they might be surprised at his having taken an active part in procuring an alteration of the Game Law last Session. He did so because information came to him from Warwickshire that gangs were being formed in Birmingham and other large towns, and he was anxious to check their formation. He thought it would not become the dignity of the House to enter upon an inquiry before the Act of last Session had had a fair trial. He would warn hon. Gentlemen that there had been an under-current agitation, and that many were the delusions which had been propagated among the farming classes on the subject. The supporters of the Act of last Session had been untruly represented to be exclusively in favour of large preservers. That no doubt was the character of the Bill when it came down from the House of Lords, but it underwent an alteration. He hoped that in vindication of the law of last Session the House would refuse an inquiry.
  LORD ALFRED CHURCHILLsuggested, that as there was a licence to kill game, and a licence to sell game, there should also be a licence to preserve game. [The noble Lord spoke amid loud and continuous cries for a Division.]
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 157; Noes 176: Majority 19.
  Words added.
  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the operation of the Game Laws, should be postponed until further experience shall have been obtained of the working of "The Prevention of Poaching Act, 1862."

COLLEGE OF ARMS—CHANGE OF NAMES—GRANTS OF ARMS.

  RETURNS MOVED FOR.
  MR. ROEBUCK, who had given notice to move an —
  "Address for Returns of the names and titles of the various Officers of the College of Arms in England, Scotland, and Ireland:
  "Of the duties which are performed by such Officers separately and together:
  "Of the names of persons who have applied for grants of Arms or privilege to make changes in their existing Arms since 1850; stating the cases in which such applications have been granted or refused, together with the reasons assigned for such refusal:
  "Of the fees which have been demanded upon: making the grants and conferring the powers applied for:
  "And, of all the emoluments of the said Officers, specifying the sources from which they emanate:"
  Also, for an—
  "Address for Returns of the names of all persons who have applied for Licences to change their names since 1810:
  "Of the instances in which such Licences have been granted during that period, together with a Statement of the names of the successful applicants, and of the names which they have been permitted to assume by Royal Licence:
  "Of the names of the persons so applying who have been refused during the same period, with the reasons assigned in each case for the refusal:
  "Of the principles by which the Home Office is guided in granting and refusing such Licences:
  "And, of the amount of Fees demanded for such Licences since 1810, and the manner in which the monies received have been applied."
  said, the reason which had induced him to make this Motion was as much as possible to put an end to official tyranny. He wanted persons in office to know that they had nothing to do with the law but obey it. They did not make the law; and when the law was clear, it was their bounden duty to place no obstacles in the way of carrying it out in any way, out of spite, malevolence, and vulgar malice. Now, the first thing he would do was to state clearly what was the law upon the subject, and he would then ask the House to agree with him that it was a matter of importance that the law should be fairly carried out, and not be abused for the gratification of individual spite. He had hoped that the Attorney General would have been
  1574
  present that evening, because he wanted to make the statement in his hearing, and see whether the hon. and learned Gentleman would gainsay it. He asserted broadly this to be the law—that any man had a right to take any name he pleased, upon any occasion he pleased, and for any occasion he pleased, excepting fraud. For that purpose he required no licence whatever; no Act of Parliament was needed. The Queen could give him licence to walk the streets, but he had power without the licence. So any man might take any name he pleased, and the Queen's licence gave him no power in addition to his own will. That was the law; and to make the matter clear, he would read a few sentences from a book of Mr. Falconer, who was now a Judge in Wales, which really contained all the law upon the subject—
  "That in the year 1735, when the question of the manner in which surnames could be changed was before the House of Lords, no notice was taken of any supposed privilege of the Crown to grant licences on such occasions. 2. That any person may take any surname, and that the law recognises the new name when assumed publicly and bonâ fide. (Chief Justice Tindall, Lord Stowell, &c.) 3. That a man may assume what surname and as many surnames as he pleases. (Sir Joseph Jekyll, M.R.) 4. That where both Christian and surname have been changed, the law will recognise the assumed names. (Lord Ellenborough and the Court of King's Bench.) 5. That no Act of Parliament or Royal Licence is needed in order to sanction a change of name, unless a new name is directed by a donor of land or money, to be assumed by the donee, with such or some other particular sanction, and subject to the forfeiture of the donation if the name should not be assumed in the manner directed by the terms of such conditional donation. (Lord Chief Justice Tenterden and the Court of King's Bench.) 6. That when a name is assumed by Royal Licence, it is so assumed by the act of the person taking the name, and the name is not conferred by the licence. (Lord Chancellor Eldon.) 7. That the effect of a Royal Licence is merely to give publicity or notoriety to the change of name. (Chief Justice Tindal.) 8. That when, by any Act of Parliament, judges have the control of a particular roll of names, they will, on a change of name, when the change is publicly and bonâ fide made, direct the new name to be added to the roll, though such name has been assumed without a Royal Licence, and by the mere act of the person whose name is on the roll. (Court of Exchequer, &c.) 9. That when any person has legally assumed a name by his own act, it is compulsory on courts of law to recognise the legal act. ('The King v. the Inhabitants of Bllinghurst,' and 'Luscombe v. Yates.')"
  If that were the law, he wanted the House to determine that no official person whatever should interfere or interrupt the operation of the law; and his reason for bringing the notice before the House was

  1575
  because official power had been brought to bear against a person holding a commission as justice of the peace to obstruct him in carrying out the law. Some years since there was a gentleman who died in Wales named Jones. He had three sons; but this notice had only to do with two of them. The eldest became Mr. Jones of Llanarth, and the younger Mr. Jones of Clytha. Mr. Jones of Llanarth had a son, and then died. The son determined to marry. He was sorry to have to mention the name of a lady—bnt the son of Mr. Jones, of Llanarth, wanted to marry a daughter of Sir Benjamin Hall, and he thought he would take on himself the name of Herbert, to which he believed by succession he had a right. He got a Royal licence to make that change of name. He married the lady, and became Mr. Herbert, of Llanarth. The second son, Mr. Jones of Clytha, also had sons, but he was still living. One of the sons wished to become a Volunteer. The father, however, wished him not to become a Volunteer until he came of age; and then the father determined, as his nephew also had done, to take the name of Herbert, to which he had as much right as his nephew, because, being of the same family, if one had the right, so had the other. He determined to take the name of Herbert. Here it was necessary to bring in the name of Lord Llanover. Lord Llanover was Lord Lieutenant of that county; and when apprised of the fact that the uncle of his son-in-law had taken the name of Herbert, be told the young gentleman, the son of Mr. Jones of Clytha, that he could not permit him to take that name or to be a Volunteer under that name. And then Lord Llanover stood up very violently for what he called the Queen's prerogative— which was a curious operation to be performed by Lord Llanover, when they considered his antecedents. There was an old proverb which he thought applied to this process, but he would not mention it. However, Lord Llanover chose to take on himself this quarrel, and he determined not only to prevent the young gentleman from being a Volunteer, but there were very suspicious articles constantly printed in the Welsh papers, doing all they could to cast a slur on Mr. Jones of Clytha, because he had taken the name of Herbert without a Royal licence. The real facts were these. An application was made, he believed, personally to gentlemen connected with the Herald's Office. Mr.
  1576
  Jones of Clytha said, "I suppose there will be no difficulty in a change of name?" "Oh, yes, but there will," was the reply. "My nephew changed his name." "Yes, but that was through the interest of Lord Llanover;" and then Mr. Jones learned the law, that he could take the name without a licence, and he took the name of Herbert. First, he wished to impress on the House that it was the law that a man might take any name for any reason, so long as it was not a fraud; and as he was told that people had paid large sums of money for changes of name, he wanted further to tell people from his place in Parliament that they need not pay one farthing to any body for such a purpose. But it might be said, that is a very mischievous law. His answer was, that he could not help it. It was the law, and he wanted any one, in the face of the world and in the face of the legal profession, to say that it was not. Let any one deny it if they could, and let the Herald's Office lament its notoriety. Hereafter great good, instead of great harm, would follow from the greater knowledge of that fact. Names had been taken in large numbers. Numbers of people who had risen from low stage of society had changed their names, and, historically speaking, it was only quite lately that surnames as surnames had been had at all. He had known a man indicted in Yorkshire as John O'Stile, because from living near a stile that surname was given to him. It might often occur that a man had some peculiarity, such as a squint, and might in consequence be called John-with-a-Squint. From that circumstance the children might receive the name of Squint. Some people's names were most offensive. Only let hon. Members imagine a nice young lady coming into a room and being announced as Miss Shufflebottom. It had been sarcastically said, that the names of Tudor, Plantagenet, Stuart, and other great names, were only assumed by fifth-rate actors and inferior Members of the House of Lords. That was a mistake, for very important Members of the House of Lords—men of great title—had taken, what he should call, very ridiculous names. The great and historic name of Seymour had, for some idle purpose or other, been changed into the sort of pantomime name of St. Maur. Another name, borne by a great man, had been changed, and for good reason. The Duke of Wellington's name was Wesley, but that noble Duke changed

  1577
  his name in India, without any Royal licence, into the better-looking and better sounding name of Wellealey; and the change was sanctioned immediately by the Horse Guards, and the name of Arthur Wellesley appeared in the next Army List. Similar liberty to change a name had not been given by the War Office in a recent case. A gentleman named Jones became an officer, and wished to change his name. His father, whose name was Paul, assumed the name of St. Paul, and the son wanted to do the same; but the right bon. Gentleman the Secretary for War refused, it was said, to consent to the change of name. Now, that man had a right, if he chose, to change his name, and all that the right hon. Gentleman had to do was to obey the law, and cause the required alteration to be made in the Army List. What he had asked for was a Return of the names of all persons who had applied for licences to change their names since 1810, but the right hon. Gentleman had told him that the records had been so kept, that there were no records so far back as that. This being so, he would say since 1850. instead of 1810, but he wanted to know why he should not also have a Return of the names of all persons who had applied for licences to change their names since 1810. The right, hon. Gentleman had told him that such a Return would give pain; but if persons desired to change their names, and it was afterwards required for public purposes to know what names had been changed, he could not help pain being given to accomplish that public purpose. The next Return which he wanted was as to the instances in which such licences had been granted since 1850, together with the names of the successful Applicants; and further, a return of the names of persons who, having applied for permission, had received a refusal, with the reasons assigned. It was quite true that the Queen might refuse a licence if she pleased; but he wanted to know what was the rule that was acted upon; but though the Queen's name was used, of course it was not Her Majesty, but the right hon. Gentleman, or rather his officers, who acted in the matter. Then he wanted to know the principle by which the Home Office was guided in granting or refusing licences; and if the right hon. Gentleman claimed to have the power to refuse a licence, it was quite right that they should know upon what principle this was done. He also wanted to ascertain whether it was mere whim, or an idle desire
  1578
  on his part to retain power in his hands, which had led to the course which had been pursued; and, in addition, he wanted to know what amount of fees had been demanded for such licences, and the manner in which the money received had been applied. His only objects were to prevent the operation of spite and vulgar malice, and to have the law strictly applied without favour.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUseconded the Motion.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, a Return of the names of all persons who have applied for Licences to change their names since 1850."
  COLONEL CLIFFORDsaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman who had made the Motion (Mr. Roebuck) had done an injustice to Lord Llanover, who for thirty; years had occupied a seat in that House,; and who was still known to a large majority of the Members, and, he was sure he should be borne out in saying, had so conducted himself on all occasions as to secure their esteem. The House would! feel how unlikely it was that such a man would have conducted himself with unnecessary hostility towards any person, or have acted from "spite and vulgar malice"—to use the words of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He (Colonel Clifford) was aware of all the facts of the case referred to, and no one had regretted more than he did what had taken place, nor, he might add, had done more to bring it to a termination satisfactory to all I parties. He felt bound to say that so far from Lord Llanover having refused the commission in question in consequence of the change of name, as had been asserted, he (Colonel Clifford) knew of his own personal knowledge that the commission had been offered and accepted before the change of name had taken place, and be-: fore it was even known that such a change was in contemplation. The Lord Lieutenant allowed the commission to stand over until Mr. Jones came of age, at his request; but his Lordship was not aware that the object of the delay was to effect a change it, the name. On his becoming of age Mr. Herbert wrote, not to the Lord Lieutenant, but to the Clerk of the Peace in the county, requesting to be gazetted by the name of Herbert instead of Junes. That was the first notice

  1579
  which was given on the subject, although afterwards an advertisement announcing the change of name was published. The hon. and learned Gentleman might say that the Lord Lieutenant entertained an exaggerated conception of the Royal prerogative. He would not go into that question, but would say only that in his firm belief the Lord Lieutenant was actuated solely by his conviction as to his duty in regard to that prerogative, and not by any private spite or malice. The noble Lord was extremely desirous to give Mr. Herbert, of Clytha, a commission, and was willing to have put him on the commission of the peace. Surely these facts were inconsistent with his alleged hostility. He could state, also, that Mr. Herbert, of Llanarth, had expressed a strong desire that every member of his family, and especially his uncle, should bear the name of Herbert, as well as himself; and he never heard a syllable from Lord Llanover to a contrary effect. All his Lordship sought was that Mr. Herbert, of Clytha, in changing his name, should respect the usual forms of procedure. At a recent Volunteer dinner a wish was expressed that Mr. Reginald Herbert should accept a vacant commission in the corps; but in returning thanks for the toast of his health Mr. Reginald Herbert said it was impossible for him to accept the offer, as he was certain the Lord Lieutenant would not grant him the commission. Now, he could assure the House that at that very time Lord Llanover had no unwillingness to grant it, and has nominated Mr. R. Herbert to the vacant post unasked by him, because he knew it was the wish of the corps. This certainly was then unknown to Mr. Herbert. That showed there were no unworthy personal feelings on the part of the noble Lord in this matter, and that his conduct had been guided by what be believed to be his duty only.
  SIR GEORGE GREY: I do not wish to enter into the personal question, which has been rather unnecessarily brought before the House by my lion, and learned Friend. I will only say that when the hon. and learned Gentleman charges me with having arbitrarily refused applications for leave to make a change of name, I do not know to what cases he refers. I will merely state the principle by which I have been guided in granting or refusing these licences. In the present instance Mr. Jones, of Llanarth, applied some years ago for the Royal licence to change his name
  1580
  to Herbert, on the ground of descent from an ancestor of that name. The representatives of several noble families of that name having been communicated with by the applicant for the licence, who stated that they concurred in the proposal, the Royal licence was granted, and Mr. Jones, thus authorized, assumed the name of Herbert. It is stated that Mr. Jones of Clytba is equally entitled to change his name; but there is this difference, that he never applied for the Royal licence. If he had made the application, and supported it on precisely the same grounds as Mr. Jones of Llanarth, and if I had refused it, then the hon. and learned Gentleman would have had some cause to complain of my arbitrary conduct; but, as I was never applied to, and consequently never refused, his charge falls to the ground. The hon. and learned Gentleman also referred to the case of a distinguished officer, Sir J. Jones, an officer who served with great distinction in India, who desired to change his name. I lately received an application from that gentleman, requesting me to direct the Commander-in-Chief to alter his name in the Army List from Jones to St. Paul; but it was clearly quite beyond my power to give any such direction. The hon. and learned Gentleman says, there is no doubt that any person may assume any name he chooses without Royal licence. Now, I am not going to dispute the legal position he maintains. I believe there is no legal right to a name—any person may take any name he pleases; but then it does not follow that everybody else must at once consent to recognise him by that name. It is by no means a matter of course, because a gentleman who has hitherto been known as Jones suddenly calls himself Herbert, or any other name that whim may dictate, that all the world must immediately acquiesce in the alteration. In short, this is rather a question of fact than of law. A man's name is that by which he is generally known. How be may have acquired it does not matter. It is his name, and he has a right to be called by it if it is the name which he usually receives among his friends and acquaintances. I am not aware of any case in which the civil and military authorities have refused to recognise a man by the name by which he is habitually known. As to the case of Sir John Jones, I certainly had no authority to interfere.
  MR. ROEBUCK: No, I did not refer to

  1581
  the right hon. Gentleman, but to his Colleague the Secretary for War.
  SIR GEORGE GREY: When an application is made to a Lord Lieutenant to sanction a change of name, it is only natural he should inquire what grounds there I are for the change. There must he something like usage to support the claim, or the greatest confusion would be introduced into society. For instance, in the case of wills, the question of identity might be raised. There might be some doubt as to who was the person referred to by a testator, and it would become an important inquiry how he was usually designated. As to the Returns for which the hon. and learned Gentleman has moved, I think it would he wrong to give the names of all the persons who have applied for leave to change their names, and whose applications have been granted or refused. As to the principles by which the Home Office has been guided in dealing with these applications, I have to inform my lion, and learned Friend that there is no written document on the subject. About 200 years ago the practice of applying for the Royal licence to change names arose, and in 1783, in consequence of the frequency of those requests, it was deemed necessary to put some check on them. A regulation was therefore made, that all applications should be referred to the College of Arms. That reference is not, however, necessarily decisive, as it is intended only for the information of the Secretary of State. That usage has been universally adopted, subject to the modification introduced by the late Sir Robert Peel, that where there are no plausible grounds for an application, and it is obviously the mere result of whim or caprice, it should be at once declined, without any reference to the College of Arms, leaving it to the applicant to exercise the right, which the hon. and learned Gentleman said all possessed, of changing his name on his own responsibility. Among others, illegitimate sons have frequently applied for leave to adopt the name of their putative fathers with their consent, and often in consideration of a provision made for them. Is it desirable that all these cases should he dragged before the public? Pain, I know, as the hon. Gentleman says, must sometimes be inflicted on individuals where a great public object is to be attained, but what important end is lo be gained by publishing these names? There are cases in which a bequest or
  1582
  legacy has been coupled with a condition that the legatee or devisee should assume a particular name, and in these cases the Royal licence is granted. There could be no objection to give these names, but I do not think it is worth while to make any exceptions. I have no objection to give Returns of the number of applications which have been made and of the number which have been acceded to, the difference between the numbers being of course- those rejected. I am also ready to give every information as to the fees, which are paid over to the fee fund. I hope my hon. and learned Friend will not press for further details, but will be content to accept the Returns in this modified form.
  MR. ROEBUCKsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had only reiterated what he stated some time ago when this question was first brought forward—namely, that it was all a matter of usage. He (Mr. Roebuck) was glad to see the Solicitor General present, because he hoped to get from him some explanation of the word usage. When did usage begin? He would mention a case how the Law Courts treated this question. Some time ago Dr. Pye Smith ("Pye" being a Christian name), an eminent divine, died, leaving two sons, one of whom was on the roll of attorneys. After his death it was represented to his sons that it would be a mark of respect to their father if they assumed the Christian name of Pye as their surname, and accordingly the gentleman who was on the roll of attorneys applied to the Courts, and they at once acknowleged his right to do so, and made the requisite alteration on the roll of attorneys. What, then, became of the right hon. Gentleman's statement that the right to be known by a change of name was matter of usage? He asserted, on the contrary, that the question was one of law and not of fact, and that every person in office was bound to take official cognizance of a bonâ fide change of name. He wished to have the names of those who had applied for the Royal licence, not from a desire to give pain, but because he wanted to know the reasons that had guided the Home Secretary in granting or refusing the desired permission. The Home Secretary said he could give no rule; but was the right hon. Gentleman sure that written rules had not lately been drawn up by the official person who guided the Home Office in these matters? He was told that there were such rules; and if so the right hon. Gentleman could give them, and they could

  1583
  be examined. If that were done, the prevailing impression that a certain influence and power were necessary to obtain the Royal licence would be removed. He was obliged to accede to the right hon. Gentle man's suggestion, but the mischief would remain until some other Lord Llanover, full of the Queen's prerogative, although he came from Marylebone, desired to put himself forward as a great man newly made.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, the discussion was very interesting, but was not of very great importance to the country at large. At the risk of appearing to his hon. and learned Friend to err in his law, he must say that to the best of his belief there was no positive law on this subject. The fact was, that surnames grew up mostly as nicknames, of which the hon. and learned Member had given an amusing example. Their very origin showed that there was no positive law on the subject. It was a matter of usage and reputation from the beginning; the name clung to a man, and the law permitted him to shuffle it off if he could. There was no law for bidding a man to change his name; but there was also no law which compelled his neighbour to acknowledge him under the name he might assume. It reminded him of the saying of Owen Glendower—
  "I can call spirits from the vasty deep,"
  Hotspur rejoins—
  "Why so can I, or so can any man;
  "But will they come when, you do call for them?"
  It was exactly the same with these names. Everybody was at liberty, if he pleased, to change his surname, but no one else was obliged to recognise the change unless he pleased. It was said, by the Judge who decided one of the cases on the subject, that a man might assume a new name, and "work his way with it in the world as well as he could." When, however, by usage, a man had acquired a name by reputation, then persons in public authority were practically obliged to acknowledge the new surname. His hon. and learned Friend had spoken as if the courts of law were obliged to comply with the request of an attorney who might wish to change his name. In the cases mentioned by his hon. and Seamed Friend, the court, seeing nothing to the contrary, and being told by the attorney that he intended to use his new surname in future, thought it right—as the man
  1584
  would probably put his name on a brass-plate on his door and be professionally known by his new name—to grant the application; but in granting the very last application of this kind Lord Chief Justice Cockburn expressly guarded himself against laying down the rule that any man had a legal right to call upon the court to alter his name on the rolls. He said the court did it for convenience. There was no law on the subject; but when there appeared to be nothing arbitrary or improper, and when there was no encroachment on the feelings or rights of others, then it was courteous to accede to the wish of a person who might desire to change his name. There was, however, no principle of law that any person occupying an official position, was bound to recognise a capricious or arbitrary assumption of names by persons who had no right to them either by descent or by the inheritance of property.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn:—Then,
  Address for
  "Returns of the number of applications for Royal Licence for a change of Name since 1850:"
  "Of the number of Licences granted since the same date:"
  "Of the amount of Fees payable on the grant of the Licence:"
  "And, of the manner in which the Fees were applied '."—And,
  Address for
  "Return of the number of applications for Grants of Arms, or for power to change existing Arms, since 1850; the number of such applications complied with, and the amount of Fees payable thereon,"
  —agreed to.

THAMES EMBANKMENT (SOUTH SIDE) BILL,—LEAVE—FIRST READING.
MR. COWPER, in moving for leave to introduce a Bill to enable the Metropolitan Board of Works to embank that portion of the River Thames opposite the Houses of Parliament extending between Westminster Bridge and the Gasworks near Vauxhall on the south side of the River, said, that all who desired the improvement of the metropolis, and the making of convenient thoroughfares, would naturally consider that one of the first objects to be dealt with was the river. The Thames was the great feature of London, and to its situation on the tidal waters of the Thames London owed its origin, its commercial prosperity, and its pretensions to be not only the metropolis of the British

1585
Empire, but the capital of the world. Although the river had been adequately used for the purposes of commerce, it had been greatly neglected in other respects. We had allowed it to become the receptacle of the offscourings and refuse of the town, and had allowed its mud-banks to become festering heaps when the tide was low, and to disseminate far and wide the most injurious gases. A large portion of its banks had been allowed to be monopolized by private parties, who had erected different places of business, and excluded the public from all access to the river. On the Middlesex side it was true that a mile and a half of embankment existed between Chelsea Bridge and the Houses of Parliament, and by the Act of last Session another embankment of a mile and a half in length was to he made between Westminster and Blackfriars Bridges. On the south side of the river, however, the only portion which could be properly called an embankment, and to which the public had access, was that small part called Bank-side, and that small space near Lambeth Palace called the Bishop's Walk. He believed that both of these were portions of an ancient embankment, and that the present course of the river had been influenced by the embankment erected in the earliest times—the times of the Saxons—in order to prevent the water of the Thames from flowing over the low lands, and especially over that part called Lambeth Marsh, which it seemed was formerly entirely covered by the-water of the Thames at high tides. However, the water was not entirely kept back by the embankment, for at the present moment at very high tides the water of the Thames flowed over the embankment and entered the lower floors of the houses in many of the streets, to the great inconvenience and misery of the inhabitants, and adding greatly to the diseases which were too often rife in the neighbourhood. There could be no doubt that an embankment of that portion of the Lambeth side of the river was urgently required, and he proposed to embank that part of the right bank which lay between Westminster Bridge and the gas works, and to carry a thoroughfare along the embankment to Vauxhall, and to the Nine Elms station. He would thus provide a convenient communication and a place of recreation where people might breathe the fresh air of the river, and enjoy a view of the Abbey and the Houses of Parliament. It was proposed by the Bill to widen the river at
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Millbank, which was at present the narrowest part, by which the flow and reflux of the tide would be greatly facilitated. It was also proposed to remove a portion of the mud-banks, which at present occasioned much annoyance and a considerable amount of disease in the neighbourhood. The effect of this would be to reduce the disease which prevailed in a very unhealthy district, and at the same time to remove a large number of noxious manufactories, the effluvia from which extended over the neighbourhood. The Bill proposed to empower the Metropolitan Board of Works to purchase the laud required for the embankment and to execute the works, defraying the cost out of the Thames Embankment Fund. The Bill enabled them to raise money upon the security of that fund, but the charge for the southern embankment was to be made second to the charges which had already been put upon the fund, so that the" embankment on the north side, between Westminster Bridge and Blackfriars, and the street between Blackfriars and the Mansion House, would have a prior claim. The Bill did not contain any provision for raising funds or imposing taxes, but simply gave the Metropolitan Board of Works the power of spending money which had been allotted to metropolitan improvements. Perhaps it would be said that the whole of the southern side of the Thames ought to be embanked; nor could he deny that it would be a great improvement. But it would involve so large an expenditure of money, and be such an interference with the trade and commerce of London, that he did not think that such a measure was practicable under the present circumstances. What was proposed by the present Bill was certainly the most urgent; and if at a future time it was thought desirable to extend the embankment either above or below the points to which it would be carried by the present Bill, a further measure might be introduced. There could be no doubt that a portion of the Surrey side required improvement both for the health and for the convenience of the inhabitants. The Bill was founded on a recommendation of the Royal Commission. Some modifications had been introduced, but in the main it was founded on the evidence and the Report of that Commission, and he trusted it would receive the sanction of the House.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he was very sorry to hear that there was no inten-

1587
tion on the part of the Government to bring in a measure to embank the whole of the south side. Within the last week or ten days there had been very great inundations on the Lambeth side of the river. Many streets had been flooded, and the cellars of hundreds of houses had been deluged and great damage done to valuable property; yet the right hon. Gentleman evaded dealing with more than a small portion of the enbankment. Nothing short of an embankment all the way down to Black friars Bridge, if not further, would do justice to the Surrey side. The right hon. Gentleman said the funds which were proposed to be raised for the purpose of metropolitan improvements were to be devoted in the first instance to the improvement of the north side of the river. Did not that mean, that if the improvements on the north side of the river absorbed the whole of the sums provided, the embankment on the south side would have to take its chance, and there was no knowing when it would be completed? In his opinion, the works on both sides ought to go on simultaneously. He was quite sure that the present Bill would be totally ineffective to remedy much of the damage that the inhabitants of Lambeth complained of.
MR. W. CUBITTsaid, that the embankment on the north side of the Thames was not intended to meet the convenience of the inhabitants of the river-bank; but it being absolutely necessary to provide some means for carrying the increasing traffic through the City, the Commission was appointed which recommended the embankment of the north side of the river; and this was more especially necessary when it was remembered, that if they did not adopt such a course, the Metropolitan Commissioners of Works would have to lay down a large sewer through the Strand and Fleet Street. There was no great necessity for a new line of traffic on the south side; nor could that side of the river be embanked without interfering with large manufactories carried on alike for the benefit of the owners and the public. He contended, that if persons owned wharfs on the side of the river, it was their duty to see that the walls were carried sufficiently high to prevent the water overflowing; but he denied the fact that, with the exception of that part to be now dealt, with the water did overflow on the south side. He could state from personal observation that between Blackfriars Bridge and Westminster Bridge no inconvenience was suf-
1588
fered from flooding. He agreed that it was necessary that there should be an. embankment on the south side between Westminster and Vauxhall Bridges, which were frequently over-flooded, and that the public money would be properly expended in carrying out such a work; but he denied that they would he justified in applying the public money to embanking the Thames on the south side east of Westminster Bridge.
Motion agreed to.
Bill for the Embankment of part of the River Thames on the South side thereof, in the parish of Saint Mary Lambeth; and for other purposes, ordered to be brought in by Mr. COWPER and Mr. PEEL.
Bill presented, and read 1°; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills; and to be printed. [Bill 65.]

POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS BILL.

  [BILL 22.] THIRD READING.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERmoved the third reading of this Bill.
  MR. HUBBARDsaid, this measure consisted of two distinct parts. To the first part, which provided for the transfer of funds from one set of savings banks to another, he saw no objection; but the second was hardly consonant with the title of the Bill, and called for some remark. It related to the conversion of a portion of the permanent debt of the country into terminable annuities. This opened up an entirely new question. He had no objection to the selection of the 2½ per cent stock with terminable annuities as the security, in which these funds should be invested; but that was not the present proposition. The present proposition, while it had the ultimate effect of extinguishing a part of the national debt, for a time increased the annual sum chargeable on the Consolidated Fund, and which bad to be provided by the taxation of the public. Thus the latter clauses of this measure had an immediate and important bearing on the amount of the burdens to be imposed on the people. It was, of course, a most proper thing to pay off the public debt; but he objected to the House being asked, hoodwinked, to do an act practically adding to the taxation of the country. Clauses, dealing with the

  1589
  conversion of perpetual into terminable annuities, ought to form the subject of a specific measure, instead of being made supplementary to provisions touching Post Office savings banks, with which they had no necessary connection.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, his hon. Friend, as he understood him, objected to the structure of this measure because it combined certain clauses relating to the regulation of Post Office savings banks, with certain other clauses referring to the investment of the monies of depositors. Now, in regard to what were called the old savings banks, it had been customary to separate legislation on the subject of finance from legislation on the subject of management; but the necessity for that separation did not lie in any natural incongruity between those two subjects, but arose because there were other parties independent of the Government, who had a great interest in the management of the savings banks, but who, on the other band, bad nothing to do with matters of public finance. But in the case of the Post Office savings banks, where, when once the security of the depositors was provided for, the whole affair was the affair of the public, there was no reason for separating that which related to management from that which related to finance. No doubt, when they proceeded to convert 3 or 3½ per cent stocks into terminable annuities, they increased the annual charge on the public for a time, in order by-and-by to get rid of it altogether; and his hon. Friend's objection was, that that being a distinct object in itself, ought to have been proposed with more Parliamentary form and pomp. That was not necessary, because this measure did not propose the introduction of a new principle, but only the extension of an old one. In the Old Jewry, at the office of the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt, the Government had what might be called a shop where terminable annuities were daily bought and sold.
  Bill read 3° and passed.

  THAMES EMBANKMENT (NORTH SIDE) BILL.
  Select Committee on the Thames Embankment (North Side) Bill nominated:—Mr. COWPER, Mr. WILLIAM CUBITI, Mr. BRAMSTON, Mr. TITE, Mr. WESTERN WOOD, Mr. AYRTON, and Five Members to be nominated by the Committee of Selection:— Power to send for persons, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.

  STATUTE LABOUR ROADS AND BRIDGES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  On Motion of Sir John Ogilvy, Bill to amend the Law with respect to Statute Labour Roads and bridges in Scotland, ordered to be brought in by Sir JOHN OGILVY, Sir JAMES FERGUSSON, Sir ANDREW AGNEW, and Mr. WILLIAM LESLIE.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 63.]

  STATUTE LABOUR ROADS AND BRIDGES (SCOTLAND) TRANSFER BILL.
  On Motion of Sir John Ogilvy, Bill to provide for the Transfer of the management of the Statute Labour Roads and Bridges within burghs in Scotland, ordered to be brought in by Sir JOH H OGILVY and Mr. KINNAIRD.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 64.]

  SALE OF GAS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. Bruce, Bill for amending the Act for regulating Measures used in Sales of Gas, ordered to be brought in by Mr. BRUCE and Sir GEORGE GREY.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 61].

  WRITS PROHIBITION (NO. 2) BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. E. P. Bouverie, Bill to prohibit the issue of Writs for Actions of Debt in the Superior Courts for sums of less than twenty pounds, ordered to be brought in by Mr. EDWARD PLEYDELL BOUVERIE and Mr. HARDCASTLE.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 62.]
  House adjourned at a quarter after Eight o'clock.

MINUTES.
— PUBLIC BILL— Committee — Union Relief Aid Act (1862) Continuance (No. 35).

EDINBURGH CASTLE—GUNPOWDER STORE.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF AIRLIErose to ask the noble Lord the Under Secretary for War, Whether it is the case that 100 Tons of Gunpowder are stored in Edinburgh Castle; and, if not, what is the quantity usually kept there? The noble Lord said, he had been induced to give direct attention to this subject, owing to the statements made in a correspondence in one of the Scotch newspapers. There appeared to be no doubt whatever that there was a large quantity of gunpowder stored in the Castle, and it was apprehended, that if an explosion were to occur, there would be an immense destruction of property and loss of life. It appeared to him that there was no necessity for so large a quantity of powder being stored in the Castle. He understood, moreover, that there was less necessity for it, as there were proper magazines elsewhere in which any quantity might he stored. He hoped the noble Earl the Under Secretary for War, would be able to appease the minds of the people of Edinburgh on the subject.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONreplied that his noble Friend had been rightly informed as to the amount of powder kept in Edinburgh Castle. In fact, at the present time there were 2,700 barrels, con-
1550
taining somewhat more than 100 tons; but it must be remembered that from this store issues were constantly made: the issues amounted to 2,000 barrels annually, and therefore during the greater portion of the year the quantity in store was small. The powder, which was kept in n bombproof magazine, as secure as such a magazine could be, was served out to the whole of the southern district of Scotland for the purposes of the artillery, line, and Volunteers. It had been customary, for a long period of time, to keep a considerable amount of gunpowder in Edinburgh Castle; and as no such disaster as the noble Earl had suggested had hitherto occurred, be trusted we might enjoy for the future the same security which we had experienced in the past.
THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, though he did not apprehend an explosion, he thought, that if they could avoid storing so large a quantity of gunpowder in the Castle as 100 tons, they ought to do so. He understood that there was a large magazine at the head-quarters of the Artillery; and if that were true, he thought it advisable that the greater portion of the powder should be kept at that place.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYcalled attention to the position of the Tower of London. A large quantity of new rifles was there at the present time, together with other valuable stores. Now, he had observed that on the quays between the Tower and the river, which he believed belonged to Her Majesty's Government, there were piled immense masses of crates, wood, hay, and other inflammable materials. If those materials were to take fire, nothing could save the Tower, and it would be a fearful calamity to have the Tower burnt a second time.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, the Tower was a storehouse from which issues were constantly made. He was not aware that combustible matter had been allowed to accumulate upon the wharf, but he would make inquiry on the subject.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, that there was an excellent magazine at Edinburgh Castle, and he apprehended that a large quantity of powder was stored there simply for this reason, because it was the safest place in which it could be kept.
House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.