Sitting of 13 February 1863

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—For Cambridge Borough, Francis Sharp Powell, esquire.
RESOLUTIONS IN COMMITTEE.—Post Office Savings Banks; Customs Acts (Tobacco Duties); Drainage (Ireland) [Stamps].
PUBLIC BILLS. — First Reading. — Innkeepers* Liability (No. 1) [Bill 18]; Municipal Elections [Bill 19].

TENURE OF LAND (IRELAND).

  QUESTION.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce during the present Session any measure with a view to amend and improve the laws relating to the occupation and tenure of land in Ireland, and to insure to the tenant an adequate protection for his outlay of capital in improvements?
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, it was not the intention of the Government to introduce any measure during the present Session upon the subject to which the hon. Member had referred, it being their opinion that the Bill of 1860 had effected a final settlement of the long-agitated question, and they did not feel disposed to reopen it.

COLLIERY ACCIDENTS.—QUESTION.
MR. WYLDsaid, he rose to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If, at any future coroners' inquests which may be held upon the sufferers by colliery accidents, the Government will authorize the attendance of a legal officer to watch the proceedings upon the part of the Crown?
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, the Government did not propose to establish any general rule with that object. The great majority of colliery accidents did not require it, and in certain special cases practical mining engineers had been sent to attend the inquests.

CIRCUIT REGULATION COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ARTHUR MILLSsaid, he desired to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to take any steps in pursuance of the recommendations of the Circuit Regulation Commission, or in any way to alter the existing divisions of the Judges' Circuits?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, it had not been thought necessary to make any change in the circuits generally. But it had been thought expedient that a change should be made with respect to the North-

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  ern Circuit, owing to the great amount of business connected with it, and measures were in contemplation with a view to a more equal distribution of business. The details of the arrangement were under the consideration of the Lord Chancellor, who was in communication with the Judges on the subject.

PRIVATE BILLS.—QUESTION.
MR. ARTHUR MILLSsaid, he had to ask the President of the Board of Trade, Whether the reference to the Committee about to be appointed on Private Bill legislation will include the question of the expediency or otherwise of empowering Committees on Private Bills to award costs in certain cases?
MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, that if it should please the House to appoint the Committee of which he had given notice, there would, he thought, be no doubt that the question of the awarding of costs would come within the scope of the order of reference.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

INCLOSURE OF CROWN LANDS.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  MR. PEACOCKEsaid, he rose to move, as an Amendment, an Address to the Crown, with a view to the prevention of the enclosure of Crown lands within fifteen miles of the metropolis. Parliament had always looked with a jealous eye upon Bills for the enclosure of waste lands, so as to prevent, if possible, the enclosure of lands adjacent to the metropolis and to populous towns, which were so conducive to the health as well as recreation of the inhabitants. Formerly, while other Inclosure Bills were private Bills, Bills which sought to enclose lands within a certain distance of populous towns, were Bills of a public nature; but in consequence of the great expense involved in passing private Bills, all Inclosure Bills were made public Bills. The result was that the House ceased to have any information or warning when lands were sought to be enclosed within a certain distance of populous places. Lands coming under the head of Crown Lands had been enclosed in the case of Hainault Forest, by the 14 & 15 Vict., c. 43, and hon. Members had,
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  he hoped, given their assent to the measure legalizing the enclosure rather because they were ignorant of what its effects would be than because they were insensible to the injury which it inflicted upon the poor people up to whose dwellings the forest extended. He had, he added, moved for certain Returns with a view, among other things, of ascertaining the extent of forest rights; and so long as those rights were respected Epping Forest would remain what it now was, a tract of land extending over 10,000 acres, and affording the means of recreation and the preservation of health to the inhabitants of the eastern portions of the metropolis. When he took into account the sums of money for which rights so valuable had been in several instances disposed of, he was, he confessed, not a little astonished at the extraordinary nature of the bargains which had been made. The return to which he alluded extended over five pages, but he would take only four cases to illustrate what had been done. He found that in 1856 the Crown rights over 1,891 acres of land were sold to Lord Wellesley for £1,891; in 1857 the rights over 325 acres to Messrs. Lambert and Dane for £1,353; while in 1858 the rights over 695 acres were sold for £3,349, and in 1860 the rights over 1,377 acres for £5,468—making a total of 2.832 acres sold for about £11,000. The House would, he thought, concur with him in thinking that amount a most inadequate compensation for the loss which the public experienced in being deprived of the privilege of enjoying themselves on those grounds. It should also be borne in mind that the land thus enclosed was situated in the immediate vicinity of those poor people in the north-east of London who, with the exception of Victoria Park, had not a single open space for recreation. From that circumstance, in conjunction with the fact that the population of London had between 1851 and 1861 increased eighteen per cent, or by 441,753 persons, he did not think he should be charged with having attached undue importance to the subject in having brought it under the notice of the House. He should like to know what would be the feeling of hon. Members if they heard that a portion of Richmond Park was to be filched away in the manner he had described. Recently, when a measure was proposed to enclose Hampstead Heath, it was loudly protested against, and yet it was only a recreation ground for the com-

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  paratively rich. With what indignation, then, ought they not to look upon the gradual encroachments on Hainault and Epping Forests, which were a source of health and a source of recreation for the densely-packed labouring classes of the metropolis? He would therefore conclude by moving as an Amendment—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that no sales to facilitate Inclosures be made of Crown Lands or Crown Forestal Rights within fifteen miles of the metropolis."
  MR. COXsaid, he rose to second the Motion. The reason why it had been possible for encroachments to be made upon the forests of Epping and Hainault during the last few years was, that at the time of the passing of the Copyhold In-closure Bill it was provided that notices should be given to all private individuals interested in the land proposed to be enclosed; but no provision was contained in the Act which made it necessary that any notice should be given to persons who might have merely public rights. In the last Session, without any notice whatever being given to the public, a Bill was brought in by the Secretary of the Home Department to carry into effect a provisional order of the Inclosure Commissioners. It spoke of certain lands in the parish of Chigwell, in the county of Essex, and but for a constituent of his who lived at Chigwell, it would never have been discovered that it was proposed to deprive the public of the use of between 400 and 500 acres which they had enjoyed from time immemorial. The Bill was referred to a Select Committee, and so strong a case was made out, that a great part of the intended deprivation of the public was prevented. It was clear the Copyhold Inclosure Act, having been passed while Epping was still a forest, did not apply to it now that it had been disafforested, and more watchfulness ought to be exercised over the sales of land. The sales of these Crown rights, while adding but little to the revenue of the country, acted injuriously upon the interests of the public, and he therefore thought it was quite proper and right that the Motion of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peacocke) should be carried, and a stop put to the filching away of these lands from the people.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "an humble
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  Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that no sales to facilitate Inclosures be made of Crown Lands or Crown Forestal Rights, within fifteen miles of the Metropolis,"
  —instead thereof.
  MR. PEELsaid, that although the Motion of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peacocke) was in general terms, it appeared by his speech that it had reference exclusively to the Forest of Epping, and he did not know of any forest near London except Epping over which the Crown possessed forestal rights. Allusion had been made to Hainault Forest; but that was disafforested some years ago, when the Crown was awarded a separate estate, whereupon all its forestal interests came to an end. With regard to Epping Forest, he could not understand the hon. Gentleman dwelling on the supposed sacrifice of Crown property by the sale of the interest of the Crown over 3,000 or 4,000 acres for £10,000 or £11,000. The hon. Member must greatly overrate or misconceive the nature of the interest of the Crown in Epping Forest. The Crown did not possess any part of the soil of that Forest. The Forest belonged entirely to private persons, as lords of manors, and to those persons who had received grants from the lords of manors. The only interest possessed by the Crown was a simple forestal right of ranging deer over the lands, He need not say that such a right, so far as the revenue of the Crown was concerned, was not of the slightest value. There were no deer in the forest, and in the present state of things it would not be possible to make Epping a deer forest without the greatest inconvenience. The course which had been taken with regard to that right was clearly explained in a letter from Mr. Kennedy, the Commissioner of Woods, dated April, 1853, and published in the Report of the Inclosure Commissioners for that year. Mr. Kennedy said—
  "I have always entertained, and still entertain, an opinion that if it were possible to disafforest Epping, to prevent subdivision by enclosure, and without cost to the Crown or the public to preserve it for the enjoyment of the public, it would be a desirable object; but, having regard to the great difficulties, I reluctantly come to the conclusion that the course indicated by the solicitors, that of bringing to sale the right of the Crown, is probably the only course which can practically be adopted; and if your Lordships should concur in the propriety of this course, I am of opinion that its adoption ought not to be delayed, as Ep-

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  ping Forest can only be a source of expense, and its present condition, social and economical, is in the highest degree unsatisfactory."
  In consequence of that recommendation of the Commissioner of Woods, the Treasury sanctioned from time to time sales of the interest of the Crown in the land, and the Returns to which the hon. Gentleman had referred showed the extent to which these sales had been carried up to the present time. He might mention that in all cases the rights of the Crown were sold to the owners of the soil. The hon. Gentleman proposed that in future those sales should be discontinued, and he did so not from any desire to preserve the forestal rights of the Crown for the sake of their legitimate object, or from taking any interest in those forestal rights, but from a desire to preserve the forest in which the Crown rights existed not now over 9,000 acres, but over only about 2,500 acres, as an open forest for the use of the people. The course which the hon. Gentleman recommended should be taken was not fair either to the Crown or to the owners of the soil. Let him tell the hon. Gentleman that to attain his object it was not sufficient merely that the Crown should abstain from selling its rights, because the right of the Crown was simply to feed deer over the forest; and if that right was not exercised, it became obsolete. ["No, no!"] Practically, that was so. However that might be, the hon. Gentleman would admit that if the rights of the Crown were to be preserved, any invasion of them must be resisted; and the only mode by which the Crown could resist encroachments would be by taking proceedings in the Court of Exchequer. There were instances to show that proceedings of this kind were attended with very serious expense to the Crown. As regards the owners of the soil, the adoption of this measure would change the nature of the easement which the Crown had over the land, and would be an endeavour to use the forestal rights of the Crown as an instrument for converting the property of private persons into a public park. On these grounds he must oppose the adoption of this Address.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that in the course of the discussion on the enclosure of Chigwell Forest last year it was suggested, very reasonably, by the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Peacocke) that whenever a scheme received the sanction of the Inclosure Commissioners, dealing with a piece of land within fifteen miles of the
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  metropolis or within specified distances of other large towns, the attention of the House ought to be specifically directed to the fact, in order that it might not in ignorance of the facts give its sanction to enclosures to which objections on these grounds could be brought. He accordingly wrote to the Inclosure Commissioners, requesting them in their Reports to call special attention to enclosures of this particular nature, and received a reply from them in July last, undertaking that this course would be followed on all future occasions. Under these circumstances, as long as the law remained in its present state, he thought it would be unwise to pledge the Crown to refuse its assent to what might actually be sanctioned by Parliament.
  MR. BUXTONsaid, the importance of the subject was much greater than might be supposed; in fact, there were few questions more nearly affecting the happiness and welfare of a large share of the metropolitan population. He differed from the hon. Member in thinking that the whole of Epping Forest ought to be preserved; there were nearly 10,000 acres which might well be enclosed. The highest points should all be retained in the hands of the Government, but there was a vast extent of swampy ground which might be sold, and would prove of great value, if not for agricultural purposes, at least for building ground. The population of the Tower Hamlets exceeded 650,000, and consisted of persons whose whole lives were spent in arduous work, and who had no opportunity of obtaining change of country air except by doing down to Epping Forest, as Victoria Park lay so far to the north-east that it was virtually inaccessible. Last year no less than 76,000 persons went down by excursion trains, in addition to multitudes who travelled by the ordinary trains at exceedingly moderate fares. Having lived for years near the main road to Epping Forest, he had seen thousands of conveyances going to and fro, and he knew no more delightful spectacle than to witness mechanics and hard-worked tradespeople enjoying the delightful air and scenery on Sundays, nearly always accompanied by their wives and families. The objection on the score of expense to the Crown would be removed by the course which he suggested, while the claims preferred on behalf of neighbouring proprietors were really not founded on reason, the proper-

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  ties they now held having been acquired subject to forestal rights existing for 800 years. The slight inconvenience to proprietors ought not to be put in the scale against the wonderful benefits to the population of East London. He hoped the Government would take up the subject, and prevent these natural parks from being destroyed.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, it was obvious that if the Crown would only remain quiet and not part with its forestal rights, Epping Forest would not be closed, but the public and the inhabitants of the metropolis would continue to enjoy the privileges which had been theirs for centuries past. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Treasury had said, that if the Crown declined to interfere, its rights would be lost. In that the hon. Gentleman was entirely wrong, for there came in the old principle of law, Nullum tempus occurrit legi. The rights of the Crown always exist, no matter what might be done by its subjects derogating from those rights. Therefore, what was asked was simply that the Crown should hold its hand, and that it would not disafforest any part of Epping Forest. The consequence would be, that the public would continue to enjoy their accustomed rights. Who were the proprietors of the forest? It was said the lords of the manor; but the lord of the manor was not the lord of the soil. He had the right of taking game and so forth over the wastes, but he could not plough the ground. He presumed that the forest was in the nature of a common, and that the inhabitants of the neighbourhood had the privilege of sending their cattle there to graze, beyond which everybody had a right to use the place for the purpose of recreation and enjoyment. He should give his support with the greatest satisfaction for the proposition of the hon. Member for Maldon; and, if he divided, should vote with him.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, whenever a private Member attempted to bring forward a Motion affecting the public interests, he was sure to be told by some one in authority that he was wrong in the procedure he had adopted. But if the hon. Gentleman took any other course than that which he had followed, he would certainly have gone on a wildgoose chase. It was not competent to a private Member to introduce a Bill bearing upon such a question as that now before the House without obtaining the previous assent of the Crown. That was the only constitutional course. He hoped
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  the Motion of the hon. Gentleman would be agreed to, and he thanked him for having introduced it, as in the hands of the metropolitan Members it might be made the occasion of imputations against them.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, I think it is desirable that the House should pay particular attention to the terms of the Motion. The Motion proposes, by a rule as rigid as the House can make it, to prevent the Crown, from taking any steps by the sale of its forestal rights for permitting the enclosure of lands within fifteen miles of the metropolis. It is one question whether certain lands that are now open, and that are well adapted for the purpose, should continue open with a view to the recreation of the inhabitants of the environs of the metropolis; but I beg to observe to the House that it is quite another question whether the House should by an Address bind itself and the Crown to permit no sale of forestal rights whatever, and therefore to allow of no enclosure whatever, so far as they are concerned, within a radius of fifteen miles from the metropolis. If the hon. Member desires that the Crown should use a proper and careful discretion in parting with those rights, in order that those rights may not be parted with in a manner injurious to the comfort of the population, that is one thing. But what I ask the House is that they will leave it to the Crown to exercise that discretion in parting with those rights in cases where it can be done in justice to the local population—in cases where the proposal is on the part of the public at large to realize funds for the benefit of the State, and where those funds can be realized without any hardship to the inhabitants of the neighbourhood. The question is not at all whether all these lands are to be enclosed and the public are to be excluded from that enjoyment of them which they have had hitherto, but whether all discretion is to be taken from the advisers of the Crown and a rigid rule is to be laid down that no matter how useless any portion of these lands may be to the people in the neighbourhood, and no matter how considerable a prize may by their sale be obtained for the benefit of the State, they shall not be sold because they are within a radius of fifteen miles of the metropolis.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, that if he thought the proposition of his hon. Friend would do what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said it would do, he would not support it;

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  but, on the contrary, he thought it would not have such effect. So far as he understood the thing it was this, that no subsequent dealing with the land in question should take place without the consent of the Crown, because the Crown having forestal rights, the Inclosure Commissioners would be very loath, and he believed it would be difficult in law for them to do it, to enclose such land without the consent of the Crown. The consequence would be, that if there were a proper case made out for enclosure, a case which could be defended in that House, the enclosure would take place, and the Crown would get its allotment in place of its right, and that allotment could be turned into money. There would, then, be the great security, that no dealing would take place in the locality referred to—a large portion of the land in which on all hands it was deemed desirable should be kept open— that no dealing with it should take place without the full consent of the Crown. That would be a great security. The right hon. Gentleman opposite shook his head, but he did not think the Inclosure Commissioners, or if they did that the House, would confirm it—frame a provisional order for enclosure without the consent of the Crown.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he could hardly agree with the right hon. Gentleman who had spoken last, for the proposal went to the extent of saying that no sales whatever should take place of forest land within fifteen miles of the metropolis. He would suggest that some qualifying words should be introduced, for he apprehended that what the House meant was, that no sale should take place where the land was for the benefit of the public, but that where the land was not for the benefit of the public it might be sold. But under the present wording it was clear that no sale could take place under any circumstances whatever.
  MR. MALINSsaid, he heartily concurred in the general proposition of the hon. Member, that a considerable restriction should be placed on the alienation of waste laud; still, he could not vote for the Motion as it stood. He agreed with the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Buxton) that the Crown should exercise a discretion in this matter—that it should select certain spots to be kept open, but that other portions might be enclosed with advantage to everybody. He would suggest the withdrawal of the present Motion and that the
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  hon. Member should reintroduce it in a modified form, so as to remove the objection now felt by many Members of the House to the proposition in its present form.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, he hoped the hon. Member would not withdraw his Motion. If from past experience they could assume that any discretion would be exercised as to the lands to be enclosed, he would not recommend the hon. Gentleman to persevere. If he were not mistaken, no lands could be enclosed over which rights of common had been exercised for fifty or sixty years, unless by special Act of Parliament; and with regard to Epping Forest, those rights had been enjoyed. In addition, he believed that persons who purchased such lands did so with serious responsibility, because if those lands were parted with without the sanction of an Act of Parliament, the lands might be allotted within twenty years, and the purchasers might suffer. Therefore, upon every ground, whether as regarded the public or individual purchasers, he should support the Motion.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 73; Noes 113: Majority 40.
  Words added.
  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that no sales to facilitate Inclosures be made of Crown Lands or Crown Forestal Rights within fifteen miles of the Metropolis.

  AYES.

  Bagwell, J.

  Crawford, R. W. (London)

  Baines, E.

  Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T. (Portsmouth)

  Dalglish, R.

  Davie, Sir H. R. F. (Hadd.)

  Beaumont, W. B. (Northumberland, S.)

  Davie, Col. F. (Barnst.)

  Beaumont, S. A. (Newe.)

  Dering, Sir E. C.

  Booth, Sir R. G.

  Dodson, J. G.

  Bouverie, hon. P. P. (Berks)

  Dunbar, Sir W.

  Ewart, J. C. (Liverp.)

  Bruce, H. A. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Ewing, H. E. Crum

  Gavin, Major

  Calthorpe, hon. F. H. W. G.

  Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.

  Gilpin, C. (Northamp.)

  Cardwell, rt. hon. E.

  Gladstone, rt. hon. W.

  Castlerosse, Viscount

  Glyn, G. C. (Kendall)

  Childers, H. C. E.

  Glyn, G. G. (Shaftesb.)

  Churchill, Lord A. S.

  Gower, hon. F. L. (Bod.)

  Clive, G. (Hereford)

  Gregson, S.

  Craufurd, E. H. J. (Ayr)

  Grenfell, H. R. (Stoke)

  319

  Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. (Morpeth)

  Palmerston, Viscount

  Patten, Col. W.

  Haliburton, T. C.

  Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. (Tamworth)

  Headlam, rt. hon. T. E.

  Henniker, Lord

  Peel, rt. hon. F. (Bury)

  Herbert, rt. hon. A. A.

  Pinney, Col.

  Hodgson, R. (Tynem.)

  Potter, E.

  Hutt, rt. hon. W.

  Puller, C. W. G.

  Johnstone, J. J. H. (Dumf.)

  Ricardo, O.

  Russell, A. (Tavistock)

  Kinglake, J. A. (Roches.)

  Sheridan, R. B. (Dorch.)

  Leighton, Sir B.

  Spooner, R.

  Lewis, rt. hon. Sir G. C.

  Warner, E.

  Lowe, rt. hon. R.

  White, L. (Kiddermin.)

  Mackinnon, W. A. (Lymington)

  Willoughby, Sir H.

  Winnington, Sir T. E.

  MacKinnon, W. A.(Rye)

  Wood, W. (London)

  Malins, R.

  Woods, H. (Wigan)

  Marshall, W.

  Wyvill, M.

  Martin, P. W. (Roches.)

  Milnes, R. M.

  TELLERS.

  Montgomery, Sir G.

  Mr. Knatchbull-Hugessen,

  Morgan, O.(Monmouth.)

  Nicol, W.

  Mr. Brand

  Packe, Col. (Lincoln.S.)

  NOES.

  Adderley, rt. hon. C. B.

  Hadfield, G.

  Ayrton, A. S.

  Hamilton, Lord Claud (Tyrone)

  Aytoun, R. S.

  Bazley, T.

  Hamilton, Major (Linlithgow)

  Beecroft, G. S.

  Bowyer, Sir G.

  Hanbury, R.

  Bridges, Sir B. W.

  Hardy, G.(Leominster)

  Brooks, R.

  Hay, Sir J. C. D.

  Butt, I.

  Henley, rt. hon. J. W.

  Buxton, C.

  Hennessy, J. P.

  Caird, J.

  Hill, hon. R. C.

  Cairns, Sir H. M'Calmont

  Hopwood, J. T.

  Ingham, R.

  Clifford, C. C. (I. W.)

  Kinnaird, hon. A. F.

  Clifton, Sir R. J.

  Knatchbull.W. F. (Somerset E.)

  Cobbett, J. M.

  Collins, T.

  Laird. J. (Birkenhead)

  Cox, W.

  Langton, W. H. G.

  Dickson, Colonel

  Lawson, W.

  Dillwyn, L. L.

  Leader, N. P.

  Disraeli, rt. hon. B.

  Lennox, Lord G. G. (Lym.)

  Douglas, Sir. C.

  Doulton, F.

  Lewis, H. (Marylebone)

  Duff, M. E. G. (Elgin)

  Lindsay, W. S. (Sund.)

  Dunne, Col. (Queen's Co.)

  Locke, J.

  Longfield, R.

  Egerton, E. C. (Macclesfield)

  Maguire, J. F.

  Miles, Sir W.

  Elphinstone, Sir J. D.

  Miller, W. (Leith)

  Enfield, Viscount

  Mills, J. R. (Wycombe)

  Ewart, W. (Dumfries, &c

  Montagu, Lord R.

  Morris, D.

  Forster, W. E. (Bradford)

  Mundy, W.

  Mure, D.

  French, Colonel

  Murray, W.

  Gard, R. S.

  North, F. (Hastings)

  Garnett, W. J.

  Northcote, Sir S. H.

  George, J.

  O'Conor Don, The

  Goldsmid, Sir. F. H.

  Packe, C. W. (Leic. S.)

  Gordon, C. W.

  Paget, C. (Nottingham)

  Gore, J. R. O. (Salop N.)

  Pakington, rt. hon. Sir J.

  Palk, Sir L.

  Gore, W. R. O. (Leitrim)

  Parker, Major W.

  Paull, H.

  Gray. Capt. (Bolton)

  Peel, rt. hon. Gen.(Huntingdon)

  Griffith, C. D.

  320

  Powell, F. S. (Cam. Bo.)

  Thynne, Lord E.(Frome)

  Ridley, Sir M. W.

  Tite, W.

  Robertson, H. (Shrews.)

  Torrens, R.

  Roebuck, J. A.

  Trefusis, hon. C. H. R.

  Rowley, hon. R. T.

  Trelawny, Sir J. S.

  Russell, H. (Beds)

  Turner, C. (Lancas. S.)

  Sidney, T.

  Upton, hon. Gen.

  Smith, J. B. (Stockport)

  Walcott, Admiral

  Smith, A. (Truro)

  Walsh, Sir J.

  Smollett, P. B.

  Walter, J.

  Stanley, Lord (King's Lynn)

  Weguelin, T. M.

  White, J. (Brighton)

  Stansfeld, J.

  Williams, W. (Lambeth)

  Steel, J.

  Wyld, J.

  Stuart, Col. (Cardiff)

  Wynn, C. W. W. (Mont.)

  Stracey, Sir H.

  Sykes, Col. W. H.

  TELLERS.

  Taylor, Col. (Dublin C.)

  Mr. Peacocke

  Taylor, P. A. (Leicest.)

  Captain Jervis

SUPPLY.
Committee deferred till Monday next.
POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS.

  CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE.
  The House, according to Order, resolved itself into a Committee on Post Office and other Savings Banks.
  (In the Committee.)
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The object of my proposal that the House should go into Committee is to obtain a preliminary Resolution for the purpose of enabling me to bring in a Bill which relates to Post Office Savings Banks. It is a Bill which touches, it is true, in one or two particulars upon the powers of other savings banks, but simply in relation to the transactions between both classes of savings banks. Nothing whatever is done by it with respect to the management of the old savings banks, or the management of the funds held on behalf of the old savings banks. For that reason I propose that it should be called the Post Office Savings Banks Bill. The Resolution which I shall move shall be in conformity with the terms in which the Committee was appointed, and will be somewhat of a general character, and will not refer to some portions of the Bill. The Bill is a short and simple one, and I will state to the Committee in two or three minutes what will be the principal provisions of the Bill. At present there is no legal method of enabling old savings banks to wind up. A certain portion of them have expressed, and—so far as dependent upon the trustees and managers — have acted upon their desire to wind up. Now, I do not think that the provisions for enabling the old savings banks to be wound

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  up are likely to be very extensively acted upon. We have had now some experience on this point; and though a considerable number of the old savings banks have done what in them lay to wind up their transactions and hand over their deposits to the Post Office savings banks, yet when we look at the number and degree of development which those savings banks have reached, the number which has done so is comparatively trifling. There are about 600 savings banks in the country, and of these between thirty and forty had desired to wind up their affairs. But the Committee will be able to judge what is the comparatively small scale of the transactions of the great bulk of those savings banks when I state that the average amount of deposits in those savings banks which have been desirous of winding up is only about £7,000; whereas the average of deposits in the remaining savings banks, nearly 600 in number, is nearly £70,000. The Committee, therefore, will see that what we have to provide for is not the likelihood of any general, sweeping, or rapid change from one class of savings banks to the other, but the desire which has been, perhaps naturally and reasonably, expressed by the managers of a certain portion of savings banks where their sphere of action has not been an extended one, to divest themselves of their labours and responsibility, and to hand over the whole of their cash and assets to the Post Office savings banks and the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, subject to all claims of depositors upon that cash and those assets. That is the principal legislative object of the Bill which I shall seek to introduce, if this Resolution is accepted by the House.
  There is in view also another legislative object—one which involves more details— but its general purpose is this:—The law has very justly imposed somewhat stringent restraints upon the withdrawal of deposits lodged in savings banks on behalf of minors, especially of minors under seven years of age; and in some cases where the Legislature has not by any direct enactment taken that course, the same result has been brought about by laws which have from time to time been framed by the managers of the different savings banks, which have received the assent and approval of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, and have thereby acquired the force of law. These
  322
  restraints have placed the accounts of minors under seven years of age in such a position that a transfer of their accounts to the Post Office savings banks cannot upon any conditions be effected. Now, however desirable and wise it may be to impose stringent limitations upon the withdrawal of their deposits or upon dealing with their accounts while they are at that tender age, it is right that some means should be provided for allowing the transfer of their deposits by a transfer certificate to the Post Office savings banks. A great number of applications have been addressed to us by various parties — for instance, by trustees of existing savings banks and by the guardians of children—and representations have been made to us signifying the desire that those powers should be given, and the object is so obviously reasonable— though the mode of proceeding should be carefully considered—that I do not conceive there can be any difference of opinion on it. I have a number of letters containing such applications made to us. For example, in many cases the parents of children apply to have the accounts of their children transferred from the one savings bank to the other, but cannot effect it. I shall propose in the Bill that powers for this purpose shall be given, and that reciprocal powers shall also be given for transferring in like manner deposits from Post Office savings banks to the old savings banks whenever it may be desirable. The other important point contained in the Bill is one on which we propose the adoption of the following Resolution, namely: —
  "That it is expedient to amend the law relating to Post Office Savings Banks, and to grant powers for the conversion of certain perpetual Government annuities, standing in the names f the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt, on account of Post Office Saving? Banks, into certain other stock and annuities,"
  I will endeavour to explain briefly the object of this Resolution. It relates to a subject of great importance, though it deals within a very limited area. As far as my experience has gone, either in the office I have the honour to hold or elsewhere, there appears to me to be on the part of the Members of this House, and likewise on the part of the public, a very general desire to give further extension—indeed, a great further extension, if possible—to the principle which long has been introduced into our law, and the working of which, as far as it goes, is eminently salutary—I mean the principle and practice of convening the perpetual

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  annuities, of which the National Debt mainly consists, into terminable annuities either for lives or for terms of years. The extent to which we are at present able to operate on that principle is as follows:— There are certain annuities existing which terminate in 1867; there are large annuities payable at the Bank of England, and there are certain other annuities, principally such as were created by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of War during the course of the late war with Russia. To those annuities so created by him there have been added during the two or three last years the annuities created on account of the Fortifications, and likewise a small amount of public annuities now in the market on account of the Red Sea Telegraph, which is, however, a very small amount indeed. Besides these particular annuities—which are public annuities, expiring at certain fixed dates—there is in operation a system by which, partly and mainly through the National Debt Office, and partially and to a limited degree through a portion of the savings banks of the country, annuities may be purchased on good terms by individuals either for their own lives, or for the lives of certain other persons, or for terms of years. That is the extent to which that system is carried, quite apart from the other annuities of which I have spoken, terminating in a lump, so to speak, at certain dates. It may be said roughly to amount to the conversion of about £1,000,000 of stock per annum. That is not a very large amount, and it is constantly asked why we do not operate more largely for the reduction of the National Debt by the conversion of perpetual into terminable annuities. The answer is, that annuities are a commodity that can be sold favourably in the market under certain circumstances, and to a certain extent, but they are a commodity of which the general market entirely refuses to receive more than a very limited quantity, except on terms so disadvantageous to the public that the Government would not recommend the operation, nor would Parliament be disposed to authorize it. But it appears to us there is a mode perfectly safe and simple by which we can give expansion to this valuable principle of converting perpetual into terminable annuities by operating on the funds that come into our hands in respect to the Post Office savings banks. I will not ask the Committee for an opinion, nor give an opinion on the part of the Go-
  324
  vernment, respecting the application of the principle to the larger amount of public money which we hold on the part of the old savings banks. In dealing with the funds we must bear in mind—though it is a contingency unlikely to occur—that we might be compelled, in order to meet the claims of depositors, to go largely into the market as sellers of stock. It follows, therefore, that we must reserve in our own hands means ample enough to meet any such possible though not probable demand. Therefore I would not venture, small as comparatively are the funds held on account of Post Office savings banks—and it is almost certain from all indications that there will be an influx and not an efflux of money—to ask the House to take a general power for converting the whole of that property into annuities. What I propose to do is this—to convert the present annuities that are perpetual into new perpetual annuities of a lower denomination, and taking the difference between the value of the old denomination and the new one to convert that amount into terminable annuities. Suppose, for example, there is a sum of £100,000 3½ per cent stock; we propose to take powers to convert that £100,000 3½ per cent stock into £100,000 2½ per cent stock. The consequence will be that we shall always have a marketable commodity on hand; and 2½ per cent, in consequence of its very low denomination, is a stock that usually commands a very good price in the market. Then what becomes of the difference between the £2 10 s, and the £3 10 s. stock? That I propose to take powers to convert into terminable annuities. It seems that the sums held by the Post Office savings banks—though large considering the time the system has been in operation—are at present but very small. They amount to something between £1,500,000 and £2,000,000. Anything, therefore, that can be done at the present moment must be done on a small scale, but it is quite possible — at least I will not say it is unlikely — that as the deposits in those banks become larger, the scale on which the principle may be applied will become more extended. I hope the Committee will understand what the effect will be of the proposed operation. The principle of the Resolution I propose is that a limited power should be taken to convert perpetual annuities into terminable annuities. That may be done either by converting a portion entirely into

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  terminable annuities, by converting the whole, or by converting part into perpetual annuities of a lower denomination than they now hold, and at the same time converting the difference between the lower and the higher denomination into a terminable annuity. The effect of the latter course will be that, without encountering the inconvenience of having to sell those terminable annuities in the general market, which is not adapted to receive them, we shall be able to act more extensively, and by adding by very gentle degrees to the present annual charge, borne on account of the interest of the debt, to gradually reduce the debt itself at a future period. Those annuities would, in point of fact, be very convenient to hold on the part of the Post Office savings banks, and eminently desirable securities, though not desirable securities to carry into the general market. That is the only explanation that I can offer at present in proposing a Resolution of this general character. Probably it is the desire of the Committee to see the Bill in print, and I shall be able to lay it on the table on the day after this Committee shall have reported. The mode in which the provisions I have sketched will be carried into effect will be quite plain. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving a Resolution as follows: —
  "That it is expedient to amend the Law relating to Post Office Savings Banks, and to grant powers for the conversion of certain perpetual Government Annuities standing in the names of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, on account of Post Office Savings Banks, into certain other Stocks and Annuities."
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he did not quite understand the right hon. Gentleman on one point. Was it intended by the Bill to give the option of converting a portion into terminable annuities in either one or of both the ways mentioned; or would the Bill prescribe which of the two ways were to be adopted?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that what he meant to have done was to describe the scope of the Resolutions. He asked the Committee to assent to the principle of conversion in some form. The form he thought to be the safest was that of converting into terminable annuities only the difference between the lower and the higher denominations. That, therefore, was the form in which he should propose to place it in the Bill; but the other mode would be compatible with the principle of the Resolution.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he had more than once called attention to the extreme inconvenience of the House being called upon suddenly to express opinions on subjects which were certainly more or less complicated, but with which the right hon. Gentleman might be familiar. They had had only ten days' notice, and the notice was for a Committee on Post Office-savings banks. True, the words "other savings banks" were introduced, and that was all there was to lead them to suppose that a measure might be introduced which would apply to the old savings banks. The scheme of the right hon. Gentleman might be good or bad, but it was one on which the Committee could give no opinion at that moment. Certainly no one would have guessed that the first measure relating to Post Office savings banks would be a provision to wind up the old savings banks. He was aware that there might be some small banks which might desire, to avail themselves of such an opportunity; but hon. Gentlemen would rather have liked to know that such a scheme was in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. He should like to be informed whether the right hon. Gentleman proposed to give to the old savings banks whatever powers of transfer he meant to confer upon the Post Office savings banks. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: Minus the accounts.] Of the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman in a financial point of view he should not say a word, although he thought it looked somewhat like a favorite scheme of his of trying to get 3½ per cent for 2½ per cent stock. Whatever, he might add, was the value of the terminable annuities, there was one difficulty connected with them, which was the operation of the income tax.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that if he had understood the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman aright, it was this—that £100 of 3 per cent stock would be converted into £100 2½ per cent stock and a certain amount of terminable annuities, which would cease at a fixed date, when only the 2½ per cent stock would be left. When the terminable annuity ceased, would not the capital of the Post Office savings banks be diminished to that extent? How was the capital fund to be kept intact?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he did not think the hon. Gentleman had correctly gathered what would be the effect of this measure. They had entirely cleared off, in the case

  327
  of the Post Office savings banks, those ambiguities which attached to the relations of the different parties concerned in the old savings banks. In the case of the Post Office savings banks there could be no doubt that both in law and in fact the State was simply a banker, stipulating to pay a certain fixed interest for the deposits of the public, and the public understood that the credit and the property of the country were their security for the due payment of that interest. That being the case, the public neither knew nor cared what was done with the money while it was in the hands of the Government; for if the system was an extravagant one, they did not suffer; and if, on the contrary, it was an economical and a wise one, they gained nothing. As to whether the Post Office savings bank system was a paying system, he should not enter into that question, as the materials for coming to a conclusion were not then before the House. But while not prepared to assert anything positively, he believed, and the very diligent and intelligent public officers who had been engaged in developing this system, fully believed, that those banks would not cost the country one shilling. Even supposing the case as put by the hon. Member, that there was a conversion into a perpetual stock of a lower denomination, which no doubt would be of less value in the market, the difference came to be this —that instead of receiving a fixed sum from year to year in perpetuity of a certain amount, they would receive two things: one, a fixed sum in perpetuity of a lower amount, and therefore representing a smaller capital; and the other, a circulating system which, from year to year, brought back portions of the capital, along with the annual interest. The portions of the capital so brought back, with other deposit monies, would be matter for annual re-investment; and that was the mode in which the system would work. It was highly important that the Post Office savings banks should be a self-supporting system; and he was very hopeful that it would be able to stand the test of the searching examination which the House would make in due time.
  In reply to MR. WEGUELIN,
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the process would be simply this—taking the smallest example of a particular annuity of £3 per cent, they would cancel that annuity and
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  create in lieu of it a perpetual annuity of 50 s. per cent, converting the other 10 s. per centum into an annuity terminable at a fixed period, say, for example, 1885. With respect to the rate of interest, that was a question which the Government were constantly called upon to consider with regard to fortification and other annuities. Their regular practice was to consult the financial officers attached to the Government, and also the Governor and Deputy Governor of the Bank of England; and there was never any difficulty as to the rate of interest, which was always made rather favourable to the purchaser than otherwise, and would therefore be favourable to the buyer of the annuity in the present case.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, that it was not his intention to express any opinion upon the scheme, beyond that he understood the right hon. Gentleman to propose that there should be a certain number of perpetual annuities in the hands of the Post Office savings banks, but the House should remember that the sum of which he spoke would be still due to the country in hard money, though it would bear less interest. For his own part, he must say the scheme certainly seemed to him like paying the interest in two different ways, which was an odd method of reducing a debt.
  Motion agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That it is expedient to amend the Law relating to Post Office Savings Banks, and to grant powers for the conversion of certain perpetual Government Annuities standing in the names of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, on account of Post Office Savings Banks, into certain other Stocks and Annuities.
  Resolution to be reported on Monday next.

CUSTOMS ACTS (TOBACCO DUTIES).

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to go into Committee on Customs Acts (Tobacco Duties) read.
  COLONEL DICKSONsaid, he wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether in reducing the duty on tobacco he would allow a drawback to merchants who had paid duty on stock in hand? They had heard already of the inconvenience of sudden changes. He did not wish to make any remarks about the reduction itself; but those interested, who had just paid a large amount of duty, had some grounds to complain of the sudden-

  329
  ness of the reduction. On former occasions, when such changes had been made, large amounts had been remitted, both in respect of wine duties and hop duties; and whilst the amount of tobacco duties paid within the last few days could not be of much importance to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the sums were serious items to the merchants, on whose behalf he asked the question.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid that in accordance with a rule which had applied to the reductions of Customs duties for the last nineteen years, and from which there had during that time been no deviation, it was not the intention of the Government to propose the allowance of any drawback in respect of the duty paid upon the importation of manufactured tobacco. If they were to do so, they would depart from an established principle, and involve themselves in the greatest inconvenience.
  House in Committee according to Order.
  (In the Committee.)
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the Resolutions which he was about to move had been laid upon the table, and had, in conformity with recent practice, been printed. With regard to the first of those Resolutions he wished to say that he placed it upon the paper rather for the information of the House and the public than because there way any necessity for so doing. It had been found convenient in the case of reduction of duty, in order to avoid too great suddenness of procedure, to print at the very first stage of the business the rate to which it was proposed to reduce the duty; but, inasmuch as the duties mentioned in the first Resolution were all of them lower than the existing ones, it would have been perfectly competent for him or any other Member of the House to have at once introduced a Bill to substitute them for those now in force. The Resolution was not one which would take immediate effect; on the contrary, it was a matter with regard to which it was desirable that full time should be given to the House and the trade for the consideration of the subject. The question of the duties upon manufactured tobacco was a very singular one. At present they gave what was called a monopoly to the home manufacturer; that was to say, that with the exception of certain articles which were purely articles of luxury, and
  330
  could afford to pay the high duty, the duty was such as to amount to a total exclusion of foreign competition. Therefore, the duties upon manufactured tobacco as they stood, might be said to constitute the only relic of the system which was once the ruling principle of our tariff. It might, perhaps, seem strange that these duties should, for such a length of time, have escaped revision. They had not been maintained on account of any conviction on the part of this, or, as far as he knew, of any Government, that considerations of justice to the tobacco manufacturers required their maintenance. On the contrary, the obvious dictates of justice would appear, at least presumably, to be that the trade in manufactured tobacco and in manufacturing tobacco, should be placed upon the same footing as all other manufactures in this country—that was to say, that they should upon as fair a footing as they could devise, be subjected to competition with the producers of other nations. The reason why no proposal had up to that time been made to reduce the duty upon manufactured tobacco had been the grave nature of the difficulties which had to be encountered in securing the interests of the revenue. It was only after a very mature and careful consideration of the regulations proper to be adopted that the Government had at length been able to arrive at what they thought a solution of the difficulty, and to propose to the House the removal of what stood at present as a very gross and in principle a very indefensible anomaly in the tariff. One portion of the regulations involved a system of manufacturing certain descriptions of tobacco in bond—"Cavendish or Negro-head,"—and that was the enactment the nature of which had required him, instead of coming before the House with a Bill which would, perhaps, have been more for the general convenience, to proceed by way of preliminary Resolution. The Resolutions could not be understood except in connection with the provisions of the Bill, and particularly the bonding provisions. As far as he was aware, it appeared to be the general feeling of the trade that it was not possible longer to maintain the duties which were now in force. He did not at that time ask the Committee to do more than to assent to the general principle that those prohibitory duties, as he might call them, should be reduced. When they came to consider the particular kind of reduction, they were involved in mysteries of a trade very

  331
  difficult to understand; but he might say in general terms that they had thought it necessary to adopt a peculiar system with regard to a kind of tobacco that was called Cavendish or Negro-head. That was a description of tobacco which was very popular in some parts of the country, and which formed a considerable portion of that which was at present smuggled. The Government had, therefore, had to ask themselves whether in endeavouring to get rid of the prohibitory rate, and substituting a duty which would admit of the introduction of that article from abroad, they should allow our manufacturers the free use of duty-paid materials without supervision for the purpose of making cavendish or negro-head. Unfortunately, though, as he had said, the present duties had the effect of giving a monopoly to the home producer, in this one not unimportant point they gave a monopoly to the foreign producer, because the preparation of sweetened cavendish or negro-head was forbidden to the manufacturer at home. Its importation from abroad was likewise forbidden, but there the prohibition did not take practical effect, and a considerable quantity of this tobacco found its way into consumption. They had, therefore, thought it essential, in endeavouring to get rid of smuggling, and to establish a fair rate of duty, to attempt to afford to the British manufacturer some means of entering into this competition which he did not now enjoy. There were two modes which might have been adopted—one the free use of duty-paid articles, and the other the power to work on bond. The first of these was upon general grounds the more desirable; but he was bound to say, that after consulting fully with the authorities of the Revenue Department, he could not satisfy his mind, nor could those who advised him satisfy their minds, that they could establish enactments permitting the use of duty-paid leaf tobacco for the purpose of manufacturing cavendish or negro-head without very serious danger to an important branch of the revenue, On that account he proposed, as far as that description of manufacture was concerned, to establish a system of manufacture in bond. With a regard to other descriptions of tobacco, roll tobacco of all descriptions, cut or shag tobacco, cigars, and snuff, the manufacture would continue to go on as at present. The manufacturer would continue to use duty-paid materials, and the only
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  difference would be that the foreign article would be introduced at a rate of duty which, as the Government thought, would amount to a fair and full equivalent for both the direct and the indirect charge to which the British manufacturer was subject. Such was a very general outline of the principles of the measure which he proposed to introduce, the reasons for which did not require to be dilated upon. They were these three. In the first place, the Government aimed at applying to the manufacture of tobacco the principle of competition—competition from abroad as well as at home—which had been applied with such salutary effect to all other manufactures. In the second place, they hoped to effect a diminution of smuggling; and in the third place—though that was not the main object of the proposal, and the Government were not prepared to submit any particular estimate—they believed the results would without doubt be of a beneficial character to the revenue. He hoped he had said enough to recommend that general outline of the measure to the adoption of the Committee, and all that he then asked was a provisional assent for the purpose of enabling him to introduce the Bill. He begged it might be well understood that no practical effect upon the duties would result from passing the Resolution that night; the consideration of the Bill in Committee was the period when they would really have to settle the amount of the duties. Although he did not apprehend that any would be required, he held himself at liberty to introduce such modifications as might hereafter prove to be necessary into the proposal he had now submitted on the part of the Government. It had not been possible to have the advantage of free and direct communication with the trade before introducing the Resolution; but before the final assent of the House was asked to the scheme, the opinions of the trade would be fully and directly elicited. The right hon. Gentleman then moved the following Resolutions:—
  That, in lieu of the Duties of Customs now charged upon the several kinds of Manufactured Tobacco under mentioned, the following Duties shall be charged and paid thereon upon importation into Great Britain and Ireland:

  s.

  d.

  Segars

  the lb.

  5

  0

  Snuff

  the lb.

  3

  9

  Other Manufactured Tobacco

  the lb.

  4

  0

  That Unmanufactured Tobacco warehoused in any warehouse approved for security of Duties of

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  Customs may, in such warehouse, be manufactured or converted into the articles denominated Cavendish or Negro-head Tobacco; and upon every pound thereof produced by such manufacture or conversion there shall be charged and paid on the delivery thereof for home consumption the Customs Duty of… 3s 8d.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, that so far as he understood, the tobacco trade did not claim to be exempt from the principle of unrestricted competition applying to all other manufactures; but they felt that the change contemplated by the right hon. Gentleman placed them, in some respects, in an unfair position. They had to pay duty upon the tobacco in a damp state which was imported for the manufacture of cigars, and therefore weighed more than when it was dry, and they had also to pay duty upon stalks which were not used, and were mere refuse. They were thus placed at considerable disadvantage towards the foreign manufacturers, who were at liberty to use only the most favourable portions of the leaf. Under these circumstances, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would allow cigars, as well as cavendish and negro-head, to be made in bond. There was no argument in favour of the regulation in the one case which did not apply with equal force in the other, and therefore he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would apply the same rule to both.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, he had received numerous representations from his constituents on the subject of those Resolutions. But as the right hon. Gentleman was not disposed to press them forward unduly or without listening patiently to the representations of the trade, he thought they might rest satisfied that no improper interference with their interests was intended. As no drawback was to be allowed, he hoped sufficient time would be afforded to the traders for working off the stocks they now had in hand before the Resolutions were put in force.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he had been beset with representations from his constituents, among whom were some thousands of persons engaged in the manufacture of cigars and tobacco, to the effect that the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not based on an accurate appreciation of the circumstances of the manufacture, and was likely to bring great distress and ruin on a large body of persons. No doubt, these cries of apprehended ruin were very general when-
  334
  ever changes were proposed, but experience showed that these cries were not always raised without substantial cause. It was to be regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, through the occurrence of circumstances of a painful nature, had not the opportunity of penetrating the mysteries of the tobacco trade before he brought forward his Resolutions. It was idle to talk of the tobacco manufacture coining within the principles of free trade, seeing it was an established law in this country that nobody was to grow tobacco. The tobacco manufacture and the duties imposed upon it were, according to the view which might be taken of smoking, either a vehicle for getting money out of the pockets of foolish men, or else a fine on the enjoyment of a luxury. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had moved these Resolutions with certain qualifications, and he now asked the House to suspend its judgment with regard to them. The leading manufacturers of tobacco were satisfied that the right hon. Gentleman had been misinformed; they knew the extent of the error under which he was labouring, and they were prepared to clear it up, and, if necessary, to go before a Select Committee. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer made any change in the existing laws with regard to tobacco, he would have to make many others; and he might find it impossible to maintain the superstructure of Customs regulations in relation to that article.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he was always glad to welcome a reduction of taxation, but there were many other articles upon which a reduction of duty would have been attended with greater benefits. For instance, he wished the right, hon. Gentleman, instead of lessening the duty on cigars, had reduced that upon unmanufactured tobacco. It could scarcely be credited that the duty on cigars consumed by the wealthier classes of society was 35 per cent, while that on unmanufactured tobacco, consumed by the great mass of the population, was nearly 500 per cent.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, he regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had passed by entirely the question of reducing the duty on the tobacco consumed by the working classes, to whom it had now become an absolute necessity, as most of them smoked and not a few chewed. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would consider the expediency of reducing the duty on unmanufactured tobacco. The

  335
  effect of the heavy duty was that it was brought in in the very lightest form. It was then watered and sugared and adulterated in all sorts of ways, and all of it could be bought for less than the duty. He was convinced that by reducing the duty on the unmanufactured article the revenue would be largely benefited, and adulteration would be checked.
  MR. ROEBUCKobserved, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to be in a dilemma, for, while one side urged him to consider the case of the cigar-smokers, another urged upon him the case of the consumers of unmanufactured tobacco. For his part, he had no sympathy with either one side or the other; and he heartily wished there was no tobacco grown in the world.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he considered, that as the question had been raised, there should be no delay in its settlement, lest the revenue should suffer; for if there was a prospect of the duty on cigars being diminished, nobody would be in a hurry to take them out of bond. He wished, therefore, to ask his right hon. Friend for explanation as to what the usual course was when the Committee had passed n Resolution that certain duties should be levied and no time was fixed. He (Sir Stafford Northcote) did not see why the Chancellor of the Exchequer should not have consulted the trade before he brought forward these Resolutions; the only reason, perhaps, why his right hon. Friend had not done so was that he wished to submit the matter first to the House of Commons, though it was difficult to see the use of attempting to keep the matter secret. He trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take care to provide such arrangements that the revenue should not be diminished. There was another point on which he should like some explanation—he meant the reasons why the Chancellor of the Exchequer objected to the same privilege being granted to the cigar-maker as to the manufacturer of cavendish or negro-head tobacco, of manufacturing in bond. He wanted to know why, if the privilege were given to the one class of manufacturers, it should be withheld from the other? It would be a great advantage to the revenue as well as to the manufacturers, if the extension of the privilege were granted. If there were any special objections, the Committee ought to be told what they were. He should like to know whether the Go-
  336
  vernment had authoritatively decided upon the subject.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the points raised during the conversation on the subject he had introduced called for but a few observations from him. He had listened with great regret to the speech of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton). The hon. Gentleman had shown the cloven foot at once, and it was obvious that his idea was that the present duties should be retained in force. With reference to his statement that there already existed free competition between the tobacco manufacturers of this country, he would only say that when the monopoly in corn was attacked, they were told that there was free competition between agriculturists. The day for fighting that battle had passed away. The hon. and learned Member for Southwark (Mr. Locke) said that a reduction of the duty on unmanufactured tobacco would be followed by an increase of revenue. That, however, was one of the largest questions of revenue which could be raised, and could hardly be dealt with in a measure such as this, which was a mere measure of trade. Reduction of duty and increase of revenue did not invariably go together; and, from the inquiries he had made on the subject, he was convinced that any material reduction of the duty on unmanufactured tobacco would lead to a very large reduction of revenue. Practically, the question which the Committee would have to consider, would be whether they would select that article in preference to other articles. Those selected would, he believed, yield additional revenue, and, to a great extent, prevent smuggling. With reference to the possible loss of duty from the circumstance that no date was named from which the reduction would take effect, he believed that vast as were the payments on unmanufactured tobacco, the payments on manufactured tobacco were extremely small, and a week or a fortnight was of very little consequence. The effect of naming no specific time in the Resolution was that a Bill similar in form would be introduced, and the reduction would take place only when the Royal assent was given to the Bill. It was desirable that they should not proceed with precipitancy; but at the same time they ought to deal with the proposition without undue delay. With regard to the manufacturers, he merely desired to give them such time as

  337
  might be necessary to enable them to bring their views fully before the Government and the House. He should himself think that a very short time would suffice for that purpose; and if the House went into Committee upon the Bill in a fortnight, they might within that period very well dispose of all the questions that might be raised. Then there was the practical question put by his hon. Friend as to the manufacture of cigars in bond. It must be borne in mind that the manufacture in bond was at best a very defective, clumsy, and costly expedient. It was, however, better sometimes to permit such manufacture than to prohibit the trade altogether; but the privilege given to manufacturers was attended by various drawbacks. The enjoyment of it was absolutely limited to a very few spots where the customs had considerable establishments which enabled them to conduct the necessary supervision. The opinion of the Government was that there was no sufficient reason for granting power to manufacture cigars in bond; but when he was asked whether that was an irrevocable opinion and was an essential part of the proposition, most certainly he thought that all such matters were perfectly open for discussion. The considerations by which they were guided were considerations in which all took a common interest—namely, a desire to reconcile as well as they could the several interests of the consumer, the manufacturer, and the revenue. Therefore, he held himself entirely open to examine further the extension of the bonding privilege to other places than he had named; but he was bound to say, that as far as his investigations had hitherto gone, he was not aware of any sufficient reasons why it should be so extended.
  1. Resolved,
  That, in lieu of the Duties of Customs now charged upon the several kinds of Manufactured Tobacco under mentioned, the following Duties shall be charged and paid thereon upon importation into Great Britain and Ireland:

  s.

  d

  Segars

  the lb.

  5

  0

  Snuff

  the lb.

  3

  9

  Other Manufactured Tobacco

  the lb.

  4

  0

  2. Resolved,
  That Unmanufactured Tobacco warehoused in any warehouse approved for security of Duties of Customs may, in such warehouse, be manufactured or converted into the articles denominated Cavendish or Negro-head Tobacco; and upon every pound thereof produced by such manufac-
  338
  ture or conversion there shall be charged and paid on the delivery thereof for home consumption the Customs Duty of… 3s. 8d.
  Resolutions to be reported on Monday next.

DRAINAGE (IRELAND) [STAMPS].
Drainage (Ireland) [Stamps], — considered in Committee:—
(In the Committee.)
Resolved,
That every Debenture granted under the provisions of any Act of the present Session relating to the Drainage of Land in Ireland, and every Assignment and Transfer thereof, shall be chargeable with the Stamp Duty as a Bond for the like amount, and the Assignment and Transfer thereof, are by the Laws in force subject or liable to respectively.
Resolution to be reported on Monday next.

INNKEEPERS' LIABILITY.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. P. W. MARTINsaid, he rose to move for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Law respecting the Liability of Innkeepers, and to prevent certain frauds upon them. As he did not anticipate any opposition to the Motion, he would content himself by saying that the object of the measure was to deal with a serious and growing fraud upon that class of persons.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. WYKEHAM MARTIN, Mr. GRANT BUFF, and Mr. HUNT.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 18.]

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. AUGUSTUS SMITHsaid, he wished to move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the mode of taking Votes at Municipal Elections. The object of the measure was to remedy an increasing evil which was experienced at these elections throughout the country.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. AUGUSTUS SMITH, Mr. Cox, and Mr. DILLWYN.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 19.]
  House adjourned at a quarter after Seven o'clock till Monday next.

ROADS IN SCOTLAND.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF AIRLIEinquired, Whether the Government intend to introduce any Measure for the better Management of Roads in Scotland? The attempt which had hitherto been made to abolish tolls on the roads in Scotland had failed, and he was not surprised at it. But there was another class of roads, known as the statute labour roads, which were kept in repair by assessment of property. The funds raised for this purpose were quite inadequate, and the result was that the roads were every year getting worse and worse, and it was very desirable that some change should be effected. All they wanted was to get power to assess themselves for this purpose; and he believed that if the Government were to introduce a measure with this object, it would receive the general support of the Scotch Members.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsupposed that the question of his noble Friend referred to the Bill introduced two years ago for the abolition of tolls on the roads in Scotland. With regard to that measure, the reception which it had received was not calculated to encourage the Government to introduce that measure again. That was, in fact,
294
one of the points—almost the only point— on which it was impossible to get harmony of action among the Scotch Members of Parliament. He should suggest that the best method of meeting the evil was for each county to do that which was done in the county with which he was more immediately connected—get a local Act and assess itself under it,
THE DUKE OF MONTROSEsaid, that a general Road Act would operate unfairly, because it would throw the burden of the maintenance of the roads on the owners of property, and not on those who, like omnibus and coach proprietors, made the most use of the roads. In fact, the great promoters of road reform in Scotland were the owners of public vehicles, who, under the proposed change, would be entirely exempted from payment of the tolls to which they were now liable. The statute labour roads stood on a different footing, and it was desirable that more money should be raised for their maintenance.

THE INDIAN ARMY.

  PETITIONS OF INDIAN OFFICERS PRESENTED.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH, in presenting Petitions from Indian Officers, complaining of the Loss of Advantages sustained by reason of the Amalgamation of the British and Indian Armies, and praying for Relief, said, these officers alleged that the pledge which Parliament had given to them two years ago, that all the advantages of pay, pension, promotion, allowances and privileges of every description should be maintained to them in any plan that might be adopted for the amalgamation of the Indian army, had not been kept. The view which he took of that Act was that Parliament entered into an engagement for the protection of the interests and rights, not of the army as a body, but of every individual in the army; and that whatever advantages, in the way of promotion or otherwise, each individual might have possessed at the time of the passing of that Act he was still entitled to—that the Crown had taken the government of India subject to that condition, and that that must be faithfully adhered to in every particular. Economy could have no voice where the question was one of justice, and he trusted that that was the view of the question that would be taken by the Government and by Parliament. This preservation of the rights and privileges of the Indian officers and of the men serving in the Indian army would in no way con-

  295
  flict with the power of the Crown to reorganize the whole body of the Indian army. That power remained as it was. But consistently with that re-organization the Crown must maintain the interests and rights of the officers as they existed on the day the Act was passed. One of the petitioners stated that in 1838 a letter from the Court of Directors granted to all colonels in receipt of certain payments, now called colonels' allowances, who might be unemployed in India, all the advantages of Indian pay and allowances. These were claimed by the petitioner, who occupied this position. No doubt, he was quite covered by the words of the Act of Parliament. It was contrary to the spirit and the words of the Act that he should not be allowed these advantages. There was another case of a somewhat different nature. An officer said that he was now eighth on the list of Engineer colonels, and that by the old arrangement on becoming fifth on the list he would have received a higher allowance; but according to the new arrangement he would not be entitled to receive that allowance till he was fourth on the list. That would appear at first sight to be a case of hardship, and contrary altogether to the Act of Parliament. But he understood that that officer had, in consequence of the very arrangement now complained of, been advanced from the rank of lieutenant-colonel to that of colonel; and had been in receipt for some time of colonel's allowances. Now, while this officer was undoubtedly entitled to all the advantages which attached to his position when the Act passed, it was not consistent with justice that he should derive all the advantages of the reorganization, and then have compensation for any accompanying loss which he might have sustained. The only proper mode of dealing with such a case was to take into account both the advantages and the disadvantages to which that officer had been subjected under the new system and then to effect a fair adjustment between him and the public. Other smaller matters might be mentioned, but the real question which interested the whole army not employed on the staff was the question of promotion. The complaint made was that the promotion of the officers of the army had been in three several ways impeded by the reorganization. They complained that they were not, according to ancient right, permitted to succeed to every vacancy created by retirement. When, in Febuary, 1861, the Government offered as
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  a bonus an additional annuity of £50 to field officers willing to retire from the service, it allowed that promotions should take place in the case of every vacancy so created. When, six months later, it was found that this offer produced only fifty-six applicants, the Government increased its terms so largely that in some cases the annuity offered was eleven times, and in no case was it less than four times, the amount first offered. But when that was done, although promotion was given in the case of captains and majors, it was refused in the case of one half of the lieutenant-colonels. However inconvenient it might be that the whole of these lieutenant-colonels should be replaced by officers coming forward by promotion, still he apprehended it was altogether inconsistent with ancient practice and the rights of the Indian army, and the Act of Parliament which maintained those rights, that they should not have enjoyed the whole of the promotions opened up by the retirement of these lieutenant-colonels. There was another grievance which was complained of under the head of promotion. It was complained, that promotion was not granted in the case of the transfer of officers from the former regiments—from the European regiments to the new regiments that had been formed. These regiments were called by the petitioners "new regiments," whilst the Government denominated them "representative regiments"—a kind of regiment of which he had never before heard— and considered them as representing the old. Formerly there were in the Company's service nine regiments of infantry, and six or four of cavalry. For these were now substituted nine regiments of infantry, and three of cavalry in Her Majesty's service; and it was offered to the various companies and men to volunteer into these regiments, it having been understood that without the volunteering of these men, these regiments could not be formed, inasmuch as the Queen's regiments were available for general service, whereas the Company's regiments were for local service. Thus there was both the representative thing and the thing represented; there was no conversion of whole regiments into representative regiments or anything like it. The complaint was that promotion was not so rapid as it ought to be, in consequence of the transfer of these officers into the new regiments not being followed by the promotion of officers in their room. He could not say he took a very decided

  297
  view on that subject. He desired that a Commission or a Committee might be appointed, with power to search the records of both services to look for precedents and discover, if possible, any precedent for the conversion of old into representative regiments, or any conversion at all resembling it—so that by direct precedent or analogy they might be guided in their opinion on the subject. It was a subject that required deliberate inquiry, and he could not at present give an opinion on it. But the great grievance of all, the complaint in which the officers were most interested, was that which they made on account of the formation of the Staff Corps, which was a new regiment, or what they called a new regiment. The transfer of no moderate number, some 1,300 officers to the Staff Corps, gave them, as they held, a right of promotion in the place of the officers so transferred. He did not take altogether the view adopted by the petitioners on this subject; and on this ground, that these gentlemen who were now called the Staff Corps, although they did not by any means all be-belong to the staff of the army—on the contrary, many of them held political or civil and administrative appointments, or posts in the commissariat and elsewhere connected with the army — yet these offices always were held by these officers, and there was no new grievance in this respect. It was true that these officers often returned to their regiments at periods very disadvantageous to the public service, when their rank enabled them to take the command although having no military experience; but this had been a standing subject of complaint for the last forty or fifty years. The position of the petitioners was not, therefore, in this respect worse since the day when the Act was passed; and the grievance was not created by the re-organization of the army, or its transfer to the Crown. What the petitioners said, was that these officers were relieved from regimental charges altogether. They did not subscribe to the mess or the band, and they did not contribute to the fund for buying out officers at the head of regiments. They were, however, subject to rules, which the Government said regulated, but the petitioners said retarded, promotion. One of these officers, having attained a higher rank through the more rapid promotion in the Staff Corps, might be sent back to take the command of his regiment over his seniors,
  298
  and while his name appeared in the roll of the regiment as a subaltern. It had been arranged that officers of the Staff Corps should obtain promotion according to the number of years they had served, and thus they obtained promotion a great deal sooner than others. Now, no one who was conversant with the feelings of officers could fail to know that the most galling thing to them was supersession, and yet it was a necessary consequence of the system that those officers who remained with their regiments should be superseded, and that the Staff Corps should be much more rapidly promoted. Another inconvenience attached to the system was that, detached as these officers were from their regiments, they did not contribute either to the band or mess, and the consequence was that it became difficult to maintain either the one or the other. This tended to disorganize or unregimentalize a regiment and to destroy its esprit de corps. Some parts of the prayer of the petitioners it would, no doubt, be difficult, if not impossible, to grant. The petitioners complained, that whilst they existed together as a regiment, and before the establishment of this Staff Corps, the officers now employed on the service nominally called the staff used to contribute their quota in order to buy out their senior officers for more rapid promotion. All that had been contributed for this purpose was now utterly thrown away. This was no doubt a great hardship, but the Government were of opinion that it was out of their power to remedy it, and indeed, he understood, a legal opinion had been given to the effect that such a contribution was similar to the buying of an office, which was illegal, and therefore that money paid for this purpose could not be recovered. But there were means, he thought, of alleviating these grievances. The rules of the Staff Corps with regard to promotion gave an unusual and unreasonable advantage to officers of that corps. The Government, having contracted with these officers, must comply with the terms they had offered, and give them substantive rank; but there was nothing to prevent the Government from extending the privileges already given to the Staff Corps to the infantry and cavalry, after a certain number of years' service. Thus, brevet rank would, after a certain number of years, be conferred upon officers remaining with their regiments. Thus what he believed to be the main grievance

  299
  would be done away with. There was nothing, also, to prevent the Government from supplying regiments, which were deprived of the subscriptions of their absent officers, with funds for the maintenance of their bands and mess. He had endeavoured to look at the whole question calmly and dispassionately, and he was sure their Lordships would agree that in all transactions with men the only honourable course, and with soldiers the only prudent course, was that of strict justice; and he would remind their Lordships of what the Duke of Wellington said, that in dealing with soldiers you must not only be just, but make them understand that you were so.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that the speech of the noble Earl had greatly relieved his mind. He had anxiously considered whether the grievances of the officers of the Indian army were just, and he had come to the conclusion that there was no shadow of ground for the complaint that the guarantees of the Act of Parliament had been violated. It was a serious question whether the Government had fulfilled the intentions of the Legislature and the promises made by Parliament and the Crown, and had kept faith with the officers of that noble service to which England and India owed so much. He agreed also with the noble Earl that the Legislature ought not to look simply to the question of economy in considering the interpretation of a Parliamentary guarantee. He could not, however, help remarking that in almost every case of individual complaint the noble Earl had made some important qualification, implying that the guarantee given by Parliament had not in that particular case been violated. He spoke of the guarantee in general terms, but their Lordships should understand exactly what that guarantee was, and the circumstances under which it had been given. The guarantee to which the noble Earl adverted was, he believed, that known as the Henley Clause in the Act transferring the government of India from the Company to the Crown. This Act declared that the officers of the Company should be under the same obligation to serve Her Majesty as those under which they had served the Company. They were bound to serve within the same territorial limits, on the same terms, at the same rate of pay, pension, and allowance, and were to enjoy the same privileges as regarded promotion as if they had continued in the service of the
  300
  Company. This was not a guarantee that they should all remain exactly in the same position, though substantially he admitted that in any reorganization of the Indian army it amounted to a promise that the Government would not put these officers in a worse position than they were before. The guarantee, for example, was not to prevent the Government, in its new form, from adopting any measure which it would have been competent and natural for the Government in its old form to take,—or to preclude it from any policy which in an Imperial point of view might be desirable for reducing the army and economizing the resources of the State; but the guarantee was that in carrying out any such reforms care should be taken to protect the interests of the officers of the army. Now, he would not only say that this guarantee had been absolutely fulfilled; but he was prepared to say that in reorganizing the Indian army the officers of the old Company had been dealt with in a large and liberal spirit. The Government determined to effect a large reduction of the native army. The spirit of the implied guarantee was, that such reduction should be carried out on the same principle as the old Company would have carried it out. Now, he need not ask the illustrious Duke the Commander-in-Chief of the British Army what the effect upon each individual officer would be of a determination to reduce the British Army. Their Lordships all knew, that while the men would be disbanded, every single officer in the disbanded regiments would be reduced to half pay; and no one knew better than the illustrious Duke, that if he went to the Chancellor of the Exchequer or to the Government to ask that these officers should receive not only their full pay, but also their pensions, such a request would be little likely to be complied with; yet this was the course which had been followed by the Indian Government in regard to every one of the Indian officers. Take the case of the Bengal army. When the mutiny broke out, the great army of Bengal consisted of seventy-four battalions. When the mutiny was suppressed, of these seventy-four battalions only eleven remained with their arms in their hands—only eleven had remained faithful to the Government. After the mutiny it was determined to reduce the battalions from seventy-four to fifty-two in number. Every one of the officers in the reduced regiments was put, not upon half pay, but full pay, with large allowances.

  301
  He had, therefore, a right to contend that the spirit as well as the letter of the guarantee had been complied with. Not one single officer had been deprived of any of his pay or of any advantage he had possessed before. They were kept on full pay, and in many instances enjoyed staff appointments besides. So far, too, from the change being carried out in a manner injuriously affecting the prospects of the officers, it very largely increased and accelerated their promotion. An offer was made to every field officer in the Indian army, and to half the captains, to retire on full pay, with an estimated value for the prospect of promotion and full terms for allowances. How many officers took advantage of that proposal? Why, not less than 270 officers accepted those conditions. They, of course, were not entitled to complain, and they were, in fact, perfectly satisfied with the liberality of the Government. Their Lordships would not fail to see how enormously the retirement of this large body of officers had accelerated the promotion of the rest. Many officers had gained from forty to fifty steps in the army thereby; and yet many of the petitioners complained of the great stagnation of promotion. No doubt after such an amount of promotion artificially produced, what he might call the annual crop of retirement and promotion was for a time retarded, but only because it had been in fact anticipated. He had taken the trouble of referring to The Army List, and seeing what had been the position of an individual officer who had presented one of these petitions, and he found, that so far from his being injuriously affected by any measure which the Government had taken, he had gained, by their liberality and by the offer they had made for these new retirements, not less than forty-seven steps, and was brought nearer to his promotion by some three or four years. So much with regard to the question of reduction. He maintained that the Government had a perfect right to reduce its military force, although, of course, that reduction ought to be conducted in a manner as little detrimental as possible to the interests of Indian officers. That, however, he contended had been done the promotion of those officers having been accelerated, and advantages having been even conferred on that army to which it had no strict claim. Then he came to the question of the Staff Corps, the point on which almost all the petitions principally
  302
  dwelt. Their Lordships were probably aware that it had been the practice of the old Indian Government to administer the affairs of India largely by the aid of officers of the Indian army. Those officers had been employed in the discharge of every kind of duty—purely civil and purely political — as well as of duties half civil and half military. They were taken promiscuously from different regiments, according as the individual officer was thought fit for each particular appointment. Every one of these officers was, nevertheless, continued on the strength of the regiment from which he was chosen. That system was supposed to have injuriously affected the discipline of the regiments from which these officers were withdrawn, and one of the very last acts of Lord Dalhousie's Government was to direct the attention of the Home Government to the serious influence which their abstraction had, and was likely, if continued, to have on the Native army; because it should be remembered that it was not merely that a regiment was deprived of a certain proportion of its officers, but its best officers were regularly picked out and sent away to other employment. That was an evil which would have been equally felt, whether there had or had not been a transference of the Government of India from the Company to the Crown, and whether what was called the Amalgamation Bill had or had not been passed. What, then, had been the remedy proposed? It had been urged by Sir Henry Lawrence, and indeed by a general concurrence of opinion in India, that there should be a separate body formed, from which, and from which alone, these staff officers should be taken. But as fears had been expressed that under the new system it would be difficult to get officers to devote their lives to the service of India as had previously been the case, it had been recommended that considerable inducements should be held out to English officers, whether of the Queen's army or otherwise, with a view to overcome that difficulty. A new code of regulations and conditions was accordingly drawn up for the Staff Corps, which regulated promotion on terms which offered some advantage over regimental service. But no man had a right to complain of this. The Parliamentary guarantee was, that the position of no man should be made worse by the changes effected; it was not a guarantee that no man's position should be made better. But if we gave new ad-

  303
  vantages under new conditions, it was in the nature of things that only a certain portion of that army would be able to avail itself of them, and, no doubt, those who could not do so might consider themselves prejudiced by the arrangement. That, however, did not flow from the amalgamation, nor from any violation of the Parliamentary guarantee, but from a great measure of policy for the general benefit of the empire. Alternative remedies had been suggested by those officers. One was that all the officers who went upon the Staff Corps should be removed from the strength of the regiments, and that promotion should go on in the regiments, filling up the vacancies thus created. It should be observed that the evil they complained of was that the advantages of the new system were unequally distributed. Look at the remedy they proposed for that. In the Bombay army what would be its effect upon two regiments — for example, the 4th and 5th Native Infantry? It so happened that in the first of those regiments only four or five officers had volunteered into the Staff Corps, while in the second fourteen or fifteen had done so, all of them being captains. What, then, would be the result of removing these names from the strength of the regiments and allowing promotion to go on as suggested? Why, in the 4th Native Infantry it would have very little effect, four or five men going a stop upwards; whereas in the 5th Regiment one of the junior lieutenants would be immediately promoted to the rank of major, and after about nine years' service he would thus be placed over the head of men who had been fourteen or fifteen or twenty years in the army? The other alternative suggested was that special promotion to the Staff Corps only should cease. Now, that was a question of general policy, and no man was entitled to complain, as a personal grievance, that it had been determined in a way to put others before himself. If it were desirable as a matter of Imperial policy to offer special advantages to officers of the Staff Corps, that certainly in no way infringed the Parliamentary guarantee given to the officers of the Indian army. Their position remained exactly what it had been before in respect to regimental promotion. He now came to another point mentioned in the petitions. When the number of regiments of the native army was reduced, of course the number of colonelcies had to be reduced also; and he did not see
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  that any man was then entitled by the guarantee to demand that his prospects in respect to the command of a regiment should remain precisely what they were before that reduction. At the same time, in order to meet the claims of those officers in a still larger and more liberal spirit, a new rule had very recently been adopted by the Indian Government, providing that all lieutenant-colonels, after they had served twelve years, should be in a position to become entitled to regimental allowances He did not know whether that would entirely meet the views of some of these officers, because he believed that many of them had extravagant expectations; but he maintained that the Government had not only faithfully adhered to the guarantee, but given it a large and liberal interpretation in their favour. He had a statement in his hand, showing the actual effect of the new regulations. The total number of officers in the Indian army on the 1st of January, 1861, exclusive of colonels of regiments, was 5,309. Of these, the number who had joined the Staff Corps was 1,333. [The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH: Of whom 19 only were Queen's officers.] Just so; and therefore the whole of the rest were officers of the old Native army. The number who had been transferred to the British service—Artillery, Engineers, and new Line regiments—was 1,356. The number who had accepted annuities and retired was 270. The promotion which had been given in the Indian army as a consequence of these several measures were as follows: in the Staff Corps 22 officers had been promoted to the rank of lieutenant-colonel, 342 to that of major, 301 to that of captain, and 4 to that of lieutenant, making together 669. By transfers to the new Line regiments the following promotions had taken place among the Indian officers: 3 to the rank of lieutenant-colonel, 17 to that of major, 63 to that of captain, and 15 to that of lieutenant. The officers who had received promotion in consequence of the retirements occasioned by the offer of extra annuities were as follows:—49 to the rank of lieutenant-colonel, 87 to the rank of major, and 103 to the rank of captain, making together 239. The total number of promotions made among 3,683 officers who remained in the Indian service was no less than 908—a very large proportion in a very short period. He had gone into these details because he was anxious to show that full faith had been kept with these officers, and that they had

  305
  no good ground of complaint whatever. It would have been cause of deep regret to the Government if any action on their part had given any just ground of complaint to the officers of a service to which we owed some of the most memorable days of our military glory, and which had rendered immortal services to the State.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHregretted that only nineteen Queen's officers had entered the Staff Corps, because that corps was hereafter to furnish officers for the whole of the Indian army, and it was only from the Queen's service that it could be recruited. If, therefore, up to the present time only nineteen Queen's officers had joined the corps, he must say that our hopes for the future were not very encouraging.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLasked to be permitted to add to what he had already stated that it was perfectly true that an officer who had been home on sick leave for four years was unable to enter the Staff Corps on his return to India. When the corps was first formed, it was composed of those officers who were actually at the moment engaged upon staff employment. It was subsequently employed under this condition: that officers seeking to enter should have been on staff employment some time during the previous three years. That regulation, however, in no way affected the prospects of the officer in question, in respect to staff employment, though it did effect his prospects in staff promotion.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEsaid, he could not participate in the alarm with which the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) viewed the fact that only nineteen Queen's officers had volunteered into the Staff Corps. It was right their Lordships should remember the circumstances under which the Line officers were invited to enter that corps. The regulations of the corps were perfectly new, and one of the most essential was that all the officers should have a knowledge of the native language. For the acquisition of that knowledge a considerable amount of study was evidently required, and until the position and requirements of the Staff Corps became thoroughly known the Line officers, of course, did not attempt to qualify themselves for admission. The old Indian officers, on the other hand, were already qualified. Now, that the regulations were well understood and the advantages known, he had not the slightest doubt that the number of Queen's officers entering the
  306
  Staff Corps would prove amply sufficient for the object in view. It should be recollected, moreover, that at the first formation of the corps it was of the greatest importance that the old local officers should volunteer into it. The corps was not only a military corps: it was to supply the whole political and civil staff of India. For such employments the most qualified men at the present moment evidently were the officers of the old local service, who had been hitherto engaged in similar avocations, and who were merely transferring their services from their old regiments to the Staff Corps. With regard to the other grievance that after a term of service they would return to their regiments with a higher rank and supersede other efficient officers, the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) had answered this point so fully, that he had left nothing for him to say; and he would only observe that one of the chief objections to the old system in India was, that the return to his regiment, when on service, of an officer who had been engaged in some civil occupation often led to the displacement of a more efficient officer. Such was the very evil which the Staff Corps was formed to remove, and therefore it was not correct to attribute its formation to the outbreak of the mutiny, though its organization was doubtless accelerated by that deplorable event. Something had been said of the Native regiments, but, in point of fact, those regiments had ceased to exist. The cadres of officers were still in existence, because their perpetuation was necessary for the regulation of promotion; but the officers had no regiments, and therefore it was impossible that they could return to them in a higher grade from the Staff Corps. Here he might be referred to the Madras and Bombay armies; but though he was not aware whether the Government had come to any decision on the subject, he certainly understood that the new system adopted in Bengal was to be gradually extended to the other two Presidencies. He did not think the officers of the Indian army had any real grievance. In the Queen's army, if the number of regiments was reduced, the officers were asked no questions, but simply told their services were not further required for the present, and they were placed on half-pay; whereas, the Government had done its best to diminish the difficulties in the Indian service. He did not believe the officers had lost anything by the recent changes; on

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  the contrary, he believed that the greatest liberality had been shown to them, and he was very glad that that was so, for the position they were placed in was one of the most painful character, and one attributable in no way to the acts of the gallant gentlemen themselves. The noble Earl had remarked upon the declaration required from an officer when he retired from his regiment, to the effect that he would not accept more than the regulation price of his commission. A similar declaration formerly existed in the Line regiments, but it had long since been done away with, for the simple and sufficient reason that it was invariably evaded. He believed that the declaration required in India was given up about the same time; but its abandonment must not be taken as an acknowledgment that a bonus should be given to any officer to induce him to retire. All the other points raised by the noble Earl had been fully discussed, and he could only add that if at any time any considerable reduction should be made in the British Army, he hoped the same liberality would be shown by the country as it had exhibited in the case of the Indian officers. He did not think that any officer of the Indian local service had suffered by the change which had taken place; and he was very glad of it, because he agreed with the noble Earl and the noble Duke that our old Indian officers deserved to be treated in a large and liberal spirit. He was glad this question had been raised, because it had elicited a very clear explanation from his noble Friend (the Duke of Argyll) which he hoped would satisfy all the officers concerned that the Government was really anxious to do justice towards them.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLwished to add, that an order had been sent out to India that in no case should an officer be transferred from the staff to the command of a regiment in supersession of any other officer who had been doing regimental duty.
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.