Sitting of 9 February 1863

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—For Reigate, Granville William Gresham Leveson Gower, esquire.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1o—Corrupt Practices at Elections [Bill 8]; Births and Deaths Registration (Ireland) [Bill 9].
SELECT COMMITTEES appointed.—Ecclesiastical Commission; Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms (House of Commons); Controverted Elections.

INFECTION IN CABS.—QUESTION.
MR. BRADYsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been directed to the evils resulting from persons labouring under infections diseases being carried to hospitals in public conveyances; and, if so, if it is his intention to introduce any measure this Session with a view to remedy the same?
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that no representations had been made to him by any public authorities upon this subject, but his attention had been directed to it by letters in the newspapers referring to it. The subject was one of importance, and there were great difficulties in the way of legislation. When the last Hackney Carriages Act was before Parliament the matter was discussed, and a clause was proposed having for its object the prevention of the evil to which the hon. Gentleman's question referred, but after a good deal of discussion it was withdrawn. There was no difficulty in enabling parochial authorities or hospitals to provide carriages for the transport of persons suffering from infectious diseases; the difficulty was as to empowering the drivers of hackney carriages to refuse fares on the ground that they believed that the persons about to enter their carriages were afflicted with such diseases.
MR. BRADYsaid, he wished to know whether, as the question was one of such great importance to the public, the right hon. Gentleman, in the event of his intro-
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ducing a Bill to remedy the evil complained of, would have any objection to that course, and would he be ready to support it?
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that on the contrary he should feel much obliged to the hon. Gentleman if he would embody his views upon the subject in the form of a Bill.

FIRE INSURANCE DUTY.—QUESTION.
MR. HADFIELDsaid, he rose to ask the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. H. B. Sheridan), Whether he intends to bring in a Bill for the repeal of the Fire Insurance Duty this Session, and when?
MR. H. B. SHERIDANsaid, he could inform the hon. Member that he had already placed upon the Paper notice that it was his intention to ask for permission, on Tuesday, the 10th March, to bring in a Bill for the purpose of abolishing the fire insurance duty. The reason why he did not proceed with it last Session was, because it was thought expedient that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have twelve months to consider seriously the Resolution of the House.

DURHAM UNIVERSITY COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. MOWBRAYsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Why the evidence taken by the Durham University Commissioners was not laid before Parliament on July 22, 1862, when the ordinances framed by the Commissioners, and dated June 30, were presented; whether he will forthwith lay a copy of such evidence before Parliament; and whether, as the Durham University Act, 1861, allows Parliament a period of forty days for the consideration of the ordinances before Her Majesty can be advised to declare her approval of the same, he will undertake that full and sufficient time shall be allowed to Parliament for the consideration of the evidence before Her Majesty shall be advised to signify her approval of the ordinances?
  SIR GEORGE GREYreplied, that it was required by the Act of Parliament that the ordinances framed by the Commissioners should be laid before Parliament, but it was not so as to the evidence. In the cases of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, the evidence was not laid before Parliament. The Government had no direct control over the proceedings of the Commissioners, some of whom were

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  Members of that House, but he did not apprehend that the Commissioners would have the slightest objection to afford the information the right hon. Gentleman desired. They had in fact, as he was informed, sent the evidence last year to the authorities of the University. The ordinances were laid upon the table on the 22nd of July last, and therefore twenty-four of the forty days during which they must be before Parliament before confirmation were unexpired at the beginning of this Session. Petitions had been presented against the ordinances, which would be referred to a Committee of the Privy Council, and ample time would be given for the consideration of the objections raised by the Petitioners.

SERVICE OF BRITISH OFFICERS IN CHINA—QUESTION.
COLONEL SYKESsaid, he desired to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether, as permission is given, by a notification in the Gazette of January 13th, to British Officers to accept Commissions in the service of the Emperor of China, similar permission extends to British Officers and British Subjects to accept Commissions in the service of the Taeping Emperor or his Government?
MR. LAYARDsaid, that in answer to the lion, and gallant Member he would beg leave to state that permission had not been given to British Officers to hold commissions in the service of the Taeping Emperor, with whom the Government had not the honour of being acquainted.

THE GALWAY POSTAL SUBSIDY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GREGORYsaid, he wished to put a question to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, of which he had given private notice—namely, Whether any intimation has been given to the Atlantic Steam Navigation Company that the subsidy formerly granted was about to be restored; and if so, whether that intimation has been coupled with the condition that a certain sliding scale of prices was to be attached varying according to the speed of the vessels employed?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: A communication has recently been made from the Treasury to the Galway Company, in accordance with previous intimations, to the effect that if the Admiralty shall report
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  that the company are in a condition, as to vessels, to perform the duty which they propose to undertake, Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to recommend to this Mouse the renewal of the contract, the details of the arrangements being reserved for settlement between the company and the Government. The Government have not attached to that communication the condition that there shall be a sliding scale of payments, depending upon the rapidity or slowness of the vessels.

BRITISH NORTH AMERICAN INTER COLONIAL RAILROAD.—QUESTION.
MR. GREGORYsaid, he also wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether any engagements have been made by the Imperial Government to guarantee the interest on a sum of money to be raised for the construction of the Intercolonial Railroad; and if so, whether all papers connected with any such engagements will be laid before the House?
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEstated, that his hon. Friend would find the greater part of the information which he desired in certain papers that were laid before Parliament in the course of the last Session upon the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for London. He would there find a despatch which was written by his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Office, who declined to accede to a request from the British North American provinces for direct assistance by way of subsidy towards the construction of an intercolonial railroad. But in the course of last year the Government expressed their willingness, on certain terms, to lend the credit of the Imperial Government to the Provinces of British North America to assist them in raising a loan for carrying out that project. Since the last Session of Parliament there had been some further correspondence of no material consequence. A visit had also been made to England by certain Members of the Governments of Canada, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia, as delegates, to make arrangements with Her Majesty's Government on the subject. Those gentlemen had now returned to America in order to introduce into the Legislatures of the several colonies measures which should form a basis for the carrying out of the project. The further correspondence would, when completed, be laid upon the table in continuation of that which was produced last Session.

THE PORT OF SEDASHEGHUR.

  QUESTION.
  LORD STANLEYsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary for India, What progress has been made in the construction of the Pier and improvement of the Harbour of Sedasheghur, and in the opening of the roads from the cotton districts thereto? The right hon. Baronet had recently, in the course of a public statement, referred, among other subjects, to the works going on in the harbour of Sedasheghur, and had then entered into a statement of the number of persons employed and the progress that had been made. Since then he understood that the statement of the right hon. Gentleman had been directly and bluntly contradicted by a person professing to have accurate information. He therefore wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman, in consequence of that contradiction, was now prepared to modify or retract what he recently stated; and whether he would lay all the papers relating to the subject before the House?
  MR. KENNARDsaid, that before the right hon. Gentleman answered the question, he wished to know whether he could now furnish the information respecting the Bengal army for which he had applied in 1861?
  SIR CHARLES WOOD: With regard to the last Question addressed to me by the hon. Member, I am afraid I must ask him to repeat the Question on some other evening, as I cannot answer it without inquiry in my office. I am happy to have an opportunity of answering the inquiry made by the noble Lord. On the occasion to which he refers, I read an extract from a letter which I had received from Dr. Forbes, the superintendent of the factory at Darwah, giving an account of works in progress on which, as he understood, nearly 7,000 men were employed. I have no reason to believe that he was materially wrong in the statement which he then made; but I have received a public despatch on the subject since that time, and I think the best answer which I can give to the noble Lord's question will be to read an extract from that despatch. I am sorry to say that on one portion of the works a check has occurred in their progress, but this is due to one of those circumstances over which no control can be exercised, and which cannot be foreseen or prevented—namely, the influence of the climate
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  upon the health of the men employed. Some of my hon. Friends, who are impatient for the acceleration of works in India, I hope will see, that although labour may be abundant in some parts of India, it is impossible at all times and all places to command it. Colonel Kennedy, Superintending Engineer of the Southern Circuit, writes, under date of the 30th of September—
  "Belgaum, Dec. 20, 1862.
  "I have just returned from an inspection of the Canara works. The Kyga Ghaut and its approaches, both above and below, to the head of the Kala-Nuddee navigation, are open to a minimum width of twelve feet, and are quite practicable for laden carts, though not yet prepared to receive a heavy traffic. Arrangements were made this year for prosecuting the works with great vigour, but those arrangements have been entirely frustrated by the unusually unhealthy state of the country through which the road passes. Fever has broken out with such virulence that the imported working parties have been broken up and dispersed, and the small amount of local labour is prostrated. Officers and subordinates have not escaped, and the executive engineer himself is so ill that he cannot remain in the district. Of 2,000 men lately employed on the works, within the space of a few days 900 were stricken with sickness. Several died, and the rest cleared off the work in 48 hours, carrying with them reports which deterred the advance of others who were on their way to the ghaut. Under these circumstances it is very difficult to say when the ghaut will be entirely completed; with this year's experience, which has, however, been unprecedentedly unfavourable, it will be very difficult again to collect workpeople; and, in fact, unless the malaria abates to a very material extent, it will he fruitless to do so, for men cannot and will not work when suffering from disease, nor will they consent to remain to die. The completion of the Kyga to the head of the navigation, though desirable, is not essential for the trade, provided the other road is available; and no preparations have yet been made by any persons to receive cotton at the termination of the former on the banks of the Kala-Nuddee. Too much stress has, I think, been laid on the Kyga Ghaut approach, owing, I believe, to the discussion about it having arisen before the alternative line was suggested and settled on. The question has not yet been cleared of the consideration that it first involved—namely, that the Kyga was the only approach to Sedashegur. It cannot matter to the houses concerned by what route they get their goods to the place where they require them, provided the one actually available possesses no marked disadvantages in respect to any other; and this is clearly the case as regards the Arbyle and Kyga lines. I believe amongst those who have any local knowledge of the circumstances there is no difference of opinion in the matter. The Arbyle and Ankola line is already opened out to full width to within fourteen miles of Beitkul, and a considerable portion of it is well provided with surface and drainage works. Of the incomplete fourteen miles nine are cut to twelve feet minimum width, and five on level

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  ground have just been commenced. In addition to this there is a branch road on a less convenient line over a high range of hills, which is opened the whole way to a minimum width of twelve feet, and by which cart communication with Beitkul is now opened throughout. On the Arbyle approach we have a heavy force engaged (two companies of Sappers and Miners, 500 convicts, and 2,500 labourers), which will, I trust, now increase day by day; and I think there is every prospect that the road will he ready to the full width by March or April next. On the transfer of North Canara to Bombay, on the 1st of February, 1862, it was determined to abandon for the present at least the idea of wharves in the situation selected by Sir William Denison, and in place of them to construct at once a quay or landing-place on the eastern shore of Beitkul Cove. A plan and estimate for a screw pile pier were called for. A commencement was made during my late visit with the wharf wall. Before I left Sedashegur it had begun to show above low-water mark; and by March next, before it is wanted, I expect that a length of at least 300 feet will be ready for landing and shipping goods. This wharf is being laid in three to four feet water at low tide, and will be accessible to cargo boats except at low water. It was originally intended to erect a pier on the western side of the Cove, but it has now been determined by the common consent of the representatives of the mercantile houses and the Government officers to place the pier on the eastern side. However, though it is most desirable to have a pier, one is not immediately and absolutely essential; for, when the wharf wall now in progress is ready, goods can be landed and shipped in cargo boats without difficulty. When the following works are completed, the absolutely essential and immediate requirements of the port will have been supplied:—The Arbyle Ghaut approach; the road from Beitkul to Konay; the wharf wall. It is confidently hoped that they will be finished to a sufficient extent to render them effectual by March or April next. Every possible effort is being made to secure this. The following works, not absolutely essential, but highly desirable, will be completed with as little delay as is practicable, under the peculiar circumstances of the districts:—The Kyga Ghaut line; the pier; the lighthouse. When all these works have been finished, sufficient will probably have been done until the port develops itself more fully, and it is ascertained what steps are necessary for improving or preserving the harbour, or to meet the increased requirements of the trade."
  Such is the official statement made upon the matter. It appears that the works as proposed were being carried out with much vigour, but in consequence of the fever suddenly breaking out in the district the progress of the works was interrupted in the manner stated. I have not the least objection to lay on the table the whole correspondence which has taken place will the Governments of Madras and Bombay on the subject; and if the noble Lord will move for the papers on an early day, they shall be granted as an unopposed Return.

SUPPLY.
THE LORDS COMMISSIONERS SPEECH considered, and a Motion being made "That a Supply be granted to Her Majesty,"
MR. PEELmoved to resolve that this House will, to-morrow, resolve itself into a Committee to consider that Motion.

POLAND.—QUESTION.
MR. HENNESSYsaid, he wished to put to the noble Lord at the head of the Government a Question which he put to him during the Debate on the Address, but which was not then answered. Upon that occasion he called attention to the state of Poland, and to the treaty obligations into which England had entered with respect to that country. He had also asked the noble Lord whether it was the fact that during the Crimean war certain overtures were made by Austria to the allies with reference to Poland, to the effect that the latter country should be restored to independence, and whether the noble Lord would allow the papers on that subject to be laid before the House. He had asked those questions in two preceding Sessions, but had received no answer, and he then repeated them for the fourth time since he had been in the House. It was of the utmost importance at that juncture that the facts should be accurately known. Poland was in a state of insurrection. The people of that country had been driven to revolt by outrages unparalleled in these times. It was surely, then, their duty to ascertain whether, on more than one occasion, England had the opportunity of helping Poland and had neglected that opportunity. In 1831 Austria and France took a lively interest on behalf of Poland, and France, urged by Austria, then represented to the English Government the desirableness of assisting Poland, but the noble Viscount refused to interfere. He would remind the House that despatches concealed from Parliament for the last thirty years had only recently been published. So strongly did he (Mr. Hennessy) feel on the subject, that he would take the liberty of submitting on an early day an Address to the Queen upon it, and in order that the noble Viscount might be in possession of the scope of that Address he would take the liberty of slating that it humbly represented to Her Majesty that certain treaty obligations had been incurred by England and other Powers with reference to Poland, and that

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those treaty obligations had not been fulfilled by Russia; that those treaty obligations were set forth in the first fourteen articles of the Treaty of Vienna; that the Emperor of Russia in 1815 undertook, amongst other engagements, to restrict the public appointments in Poland to Poles; that for many years past not one of those engagements had been fulfilled; that a breach of the solemn engagements thus incurred between England and Russia had recently been described by Her Majesty's First Minister in these words—
"The course which the Government of Russia has adopted towards Poland is a complete and decided violation of the Treaty of Vienna. The stipulations of that treaty were broken almost as soon as concluded. Perhaps the greatest violation of a treaty that has ever taken place in the history of the world was that which occurred in the case of Poland."
The Address then proceeded to state that for some years past the people of Poland had borne with exemplary patience that deliberate violation of their national rights; that while their pacific endurance had attracted the admiration of Europe, it seemed to have roused the worst passions of the Russian Government; that, owing to an accumulation of outrages and cruelty unparalleled in these times, the kingdom of Poland was now the scene of a devastating conflict between the troops of Russia and the people who had been driven to desperation. The Address then humbly submitted to her Majesty that these facts urgently demanded the interposition of England in vindication of her own public faith and solemn engagements, and that steps should at once be taken to enforce the treaty obligations which this country had incurred in respect of Poland.
MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps I should at an earlier stage have pointed out that the course which is now being pursued by the hon. Member is contrary to the established practice of this House. The Motion is not that the House do now, but that it will tomorrow, resolve itself into Committee of Supply. It has been ruled in this House, and I am bound to adhere to that rule, that the proper occasion for any hon. Member to avail himself of the opportunity of introducing topics on the Motion for Committee of Supply is when the Motion is that the House do resolve itself into Committee of Supply, and not when, as at present, the question is, that the Committee be appointed for a future day.
Motion agreed to.
Committee thereupon To-morrow.

GREECE.—QUESTION.
MR. HENRY SEYMOURsaid, he wished to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether Her Majesty's Government has made any diplomatic proposal to the Greek people of the Duke of Saxe-Coburg to fill the vacancy of the Throne of Greece; and, if so, whether the Duke has signified his willingness, under any circumstances, to become a candidate?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: The Greek question at present stands thus:—The Greek nation fixed upon the election of Prince Alfred, son of Her Majesty, and it was only yesterday that the Greek Minister communicated that decision to my noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office. To that, of course, the answer given was in conformity with the announcement in the Speech; but no other candidate has yet been proposed to the Greek nation in any formal manner. The Duke of Coburg has been sounded privately on the subject for the purpose of ascertaining whether, in the event of being proposed or elected by the Greek people, he would accept the throne, and the Duke of Coburg has declined to be put in nomination for the Throne of Greece.

CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend and continue the Law relating to Corrupt Practices at Elections. The Bill he proposed to introduce was in substance, though not in form, similar to a measure which had already been twice before the House. While the Bill proposed to continue much of the existing law, it would at the same time embody certain recommendations of the Select Committee which had inquired into the subject. In a former Act of Parliament there was a provision that paid agents should not be allowed to vote at elections. That provision was not contained in the existing law. But evidence had been brought before the Committee to show that a number of persons who were electors were usually employed as messengers, and were paid at a rate which amounted to a remuneration for their votes. It was therefore proposed, not in the precise terms, but in substance, to re-enact that provision of the 7 & 8 Geo. IV, which prevented those

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  persons from voting at any election, or struck off their votes if they had been taken. The next part of the Bill would involve the repeal of the existing clauses with respect to election auditors, which appeared to the Committee to be ineffectual for their purpose, while they caused some expense to candidates. It was proposed to substitute for those clauses provisions that all expenses of candidates, except their own personal expenses, should be paid through agents to be selected by themselves, their names being published by the returning officer before the nomination. No demand would be permitted to be enforced after a limited time subsequent to the election, and all bills would have to be paid within a month after the election. In three months from the settlement of the accounts the agent would be required, under penalties, to make to the returning officer a correct statement of all the expenses, which would be published, and every voter would have an opportunity of investigating the accounts. The next provision would extend to Election Committees the power possessed by a Commission of Inquiry to compel witnesses to give evidence, subject to an indemnity to be given to them, which would in some cases enable a Committee to elicit the facts without a subsequent Commission. There was another provision, which, when extensive bribery or corruption was reported by a Commission, would give the sanction of Parliament to a Resolution of the House of Commons to suspend for a period of five years the power of returning Members to that House. There were some provisions as to indictments and proceedings of Committees which he need not now specify. He had stated the principal provisions of the Bill, which he begged now to be permitted to introduce.
  MR. HUNTsaid, he wished to call attention to the fact that under the present state of the law the accounts of the election auditor might be kept back until after the petition against a return had been presented. That was a great blot on the law. It would be highly proper that the accounts should be published by such a time as the election inquiry might take place, so that the Committee might be able to go thoroughly into the accounts. He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman had not announced it his intention to go into the whole question of election petitions. Last Session petitions had been presented merely for the purpose of causing other peti-
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  tions to be withdrawn. He thought that every discouragement should be given to presenting petitions upon frivolous grounds, and that none should be presented without having its grounds thoroughly sifted. It seemed to be thought by many that an election petition was a sort of private affair between the respective candidates, but such an opinion should not be allowed to prevail. He thought that no petition should be withdrawn until the reasons for the withdrawal had been sifted by the Committee; and that if the defeated candidate could show that corruption had existed, it was for the House to take up the prosecution, and not for the disappointed candidate. The charges made on the candidates by the sheriffs of counties and the returning officers in boroughs at present varied very much, and he thought those charge sought to be defined and scheduled.
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, he approved of the Bill, as he thought the recommendations of the Select Committee were deserving of being incorporated into the Act. Still they only touched the fringe of the evil. In three cases out of four bribery took place in the afternoon. He by no moans meant to say that bribery was never committed early in the day, and when candidates were in a large majority; but the time when it was generally committed was between two and three o'clock, when there was a very close run in the voting, and five or ten votes on either side might determine the election. The cause, in his opinion, was the publication of the half-hour states of the poll, and if any mode could be devised by which such publication could be prevented, one very great encouragement to bribery would be done away. In that matter they might take a leaf out of the Reform Bill proposed by the Earl of Derby's Government, which admitted the principle of rendering the state of the poll uncertain; for it allowed the votes of persons who lived at a distance to be recorded by means of voting-papers, the result of which could not be ascertained until later. He would propose that votes should be taken by means of voting papers filled up in the polling booth, but published after the declaration of the poll. Such a plan would not be open to the objections which some hon. Members had to the practice of secret voting, and at the same time it would have all the effect of secret voting in preventing bribery, as under such an arrangement the agents would not have sufficient know-

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  ledge of the state of the poll to induce a resort to afternoon bribery. That would do more to put an end to bribery than the additions to the present law proposed by the present Bill.
  LORD ROBERT CECILsaid, he was of opinion, that if the publication of the state of the poll was to be suppressed, the voting must be earned on entirely by means of papers. If an endeavour were made to conceal the votes of the electors as they went to the poll, the course of proceeding would be, that agents would be stationed near each polling-booth to ask the voters as they returned from recording their votes how they had voted, and Englishmen, not being afraid that their conduct should be known, would generally answer the queries, and the state of the poll would in that way be known. If they adopted the system of voting by papers or registered letters, the hour by hour publication of the poll would be impossible. He assumed that bribery generally took place within the last hour of the polling, but he did not think that the difficult question how it was to be put down would find a solution, except through the instrumentality of voting papers.
  SIR FRANCIS GOLDSMIDsaid, he was of opinion that voting papers would facilitate rather than deter from the commission of bribery.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, that all the proposals made by hon. Members were only applicable to small constituencies. He preresented a large constituency, and he did not believe that any one in it was suspected of bribery. It was only in small constituencies that the electors were open to undue influences. He thought this was a powerful argument in favour of the redistribution of seats, and of divesting small burghs of their representatives and of giving them to the large towns, which were free from any such suspicion.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he was in favour of giving the seat vacated through bribery to the innocent candidate, however small might be the number of his supporters, and however large that of the peccant and unseated member. Such a course would be a real security against bribery, as it would render all the previous preparations of the buying candidate of no avail. If it were suggested that it would be unfair to the constituents, he submitted that it would be a very proper penalty for permitting themselves to be bribed.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill to amend and continue the Law relating to Corrupt Practices at Elections, ordered to be brought in by Sir GEORGE GREY and Mr. BRUCE.
  Bill presented, and read 1o. [Bill 8.]

MILITIA ESTIMATES.—RESOLUTIONS.
SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, that as the Resolution of which he had given notice might be considered to involve a change in the constitutional practice in regard to moving the Estimates for the Disembodied Militia, a few words of explanation as to the origin of the practice might be necessary. The Militia Estimates had become a matter of routine and usually passed with little general observation, but there was a time when the militia was connected with the most stimulating Parliamentary contests. It was the assumption of the management of the militia by the Long Parliament that caused the civil war between Charles I. and his subjects. After the Restoration an Act of Parliament was passed which vested the government of the militia in the Crown, and therefore that constitutional question was set at rest. At the same time the charge of the militia was imposed upon persons of property in the counties, under the control of the lords-lieutenant and deputy-lieutenants. The expense of the militia was, in fact, defrayed out of the county rate, and became a matter not only of local management but of local charge. About the end of the reignof George II., in 1757, an Act was passed by which, while the management of the militia was substantially left unchanged, the expense was transferred to the general taxation of the country, and became the subject of votes of the House of Commons. The Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, under that Act, on the certificate of the lords-lieutenant of counties, made an order for the amount required upon the Receiver of Land Tax. By that change the militia became, as far as payment was concerned, virtually upon the same footing as the King's army—the regular army of the country; but the Militia Estimates were not, concurrently with that change, prepared in the same mode as the regular Army Estimates. He presumed, from a desire to retain on the part of the popular branch of the Legislature, some portion of that hold on the militia which had existed when the militia was a purely local charge, the preparation of the Militia Estimates was placed under

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the control of that House, and annually a Motion was made for the appointment of a Select Committee to prepare them. That system was introduced soon after the passing of the Act of 1757, and had continued, he believed without any alteration, up to the present day. When that peculiar mode of preparing the Militia Estimates was introduced, the Estimates were substantially prepared by the Select Committees of that House; but at what period the change, which afterwards took place, occurred, he was unable to say. However, since he had been a Member of that House, and he apprehended from a date much earlier, it had been the practice for the executive Government to prepare the Militia Estimates, and they were submitted, ready prepared, to the Select Committee. That Committee generally assented to them with little or no investigation. The appointment of the Committee, in fact, had become little better than a matter of form, for substantially the Committee no longer exercised any power. During the last Session, indeed, the appointment of the Committee gave rise to misunderstanding, and some hon. Members of that House thought that the Government were taking an unusual course in referring the matter to a Select Committee, and a discussion thereon arose. He had, consequently, stated, in the course of last Session, that if the change was likely to meet with the general approbation of the House, he should propose that the Militia Estimates should be put on the same footing as the other Army Estimates, and that the whole should be presented simultaneously to the House by the Government. He would state what was the practice with respect to other branches of expense similar to the militia. The Estimate for the Yeomanry was included in the ordinary Army Estimates. The same was the case with respect to the Volunteers. The Estimate for the embodied militia was likewise included in the Army Estimates. The distinction was between the embodied and disembodied militia, and the Resolution he proposed referred exclusively to the disembodied militia. The annual Vote for the Jersey and Guernsey militia was also included in the general Army Estimates. For the purpose of the Appropriation Act the Vote for the militia was likewise comprehended under the same category as the general vote for the army, and the sum was included in the Army Accounts. If any valid
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objection could be urged to the Resolution he now proposed, he should have no desire to press his Motion on the House. He believed, however, that in reference to the mode of presenting the expense of the armed force of the country, it would be found more convenient than the existing mode, that the whole of the charges should be under the consideration of Parliament simultaneously. At present, the charge for the disembodied militia, which last year amounted to £750,000, was presented apart from the other Military Estimates, and was considered at the end of the Session—an arrangement less convenient for discussion, and involving, as it seemed to him, less responsibility to the executive Government, than if it were included in the general Estimates for the army. He, therefore, hoped that the House would agree to the first Resolution he had to propose. He had placed two Resolutions on the notice paper, in order that the House might understand the course of proceeding he intended to take; but that night he should only move the first Resolution, postponing until after the report of the first the second Resolution for an Address to the Crown, praying that Estimates of the charge for the disembodied militia might be prepared and laid before the House. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving a Resolution—
"That in the opinion of this House, it is expedient to discontinue the practice of appointing a Select Committee to prepare Estimates of the charge of the Disembodied Militia of Great Britain and Ireland; and that such Estimates be in future prepared on the responsibility of Ministers of the Crown."
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that the objection to the Resolution was, that it transferred to the Crown the old constitutional power possessed by that House, and converted the militia into a part of the Standing Army. A militia force was adopted at an early period of our history, on the abolition of the old feudal system of knights' fees, established by William the Conqueror. As early as the time of Henry VIII., if not earlier, our kings issued warrants to lords-lieutenant, as they named them, and sent them to different counties, where they raised troops; and that practice continued down to the time of Charles I., and in accordance with this practice he issued such warrants to certain noblemen, whom he constituted lords-lieutenant, and assumed to himself the power of raising the militia force,

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which was opposed by the Long Parliament and wrested from him. After the Restoration, in the 13th, 14th, and 15th years of Charles II., Acts of Parliament reinvested the management of the militia in the Crown, but the cost was defrayed by the counties out of the county rates. That system continued till the 42nd of George II., when the cost was transferred to the Consolidated Fund, but the House retained the power of preparing the Estimate. The Estimate was not made at the pleasure of the Crown; it did not depend on any regulation of the Minister of War. Practically the Estimates had been prepared by the Government officials, and laid before the Select Committee, and it would appear to have been for some time so far a formality, because the Committee rarely exercised the power it possessed of revising the Estimate presented, though that power enabled it not only to diminish, but increase the amount if it thought fit. But within the last ten years he had known those Estimates discussed and divisions take place in Committee on the details. He believed that such discussions were not convenient to the Crown; and this, he supposed, was the reason for getting rid of them. But by agreeing to these Resolutions the House would be giving up a constitutional principle. He could see no inconvenience in the Committee; and if the Committee did their duties, they could make alterations in the Estimates and submit them to the House, which could not be done in other military Estimates. However, he did not now mean to offer any serious objection to the Resolution; but he thought the House had had very short notice of so important a change on a constitutional question as that contemplated, and he trusted, that if the House were disposed to pass the Resolution that night, the right hon. Baronet would give them time for its full consideration.
COLONEL GILPINsaid, that though it was true the Militia Estimates were prepared by the War Minister, yet for a long series of years it had been the custom of the House to take the initiative on those Estimates, and in the Select Committee opportunity was afforded for their consideration and, if necessary, for their alteration. If once the Militia Estimates were assimilated to the other Army Estimates, he should like to know what chance there would be of effecting any alteration in them. But whether the new system was adopted or the old continued, he only
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hoped that care would be taken to obtain value for the money expended.
SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, that there was no intention on the part of the Government, or on his own part, to make the smallest alteration in the system of managing the militia, nor to propose any alteration in the existing Acts by which they were governed. No change would be made, except in the mode of bringing the Estimates under the consideration of the House. He believed that the mode he proposed would be found most convenient and acceptable to a majority of Members, and there was no other reason for maintaining the present system than its antiquity and its existence. Under the proposed system the Estimates must come before the House in Committee of Supply, and any alteration could then be made.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGEBYsaid, that his experience did not lead him to pay much respect to Estimates, and the evidence taken by the Committee on Public Accounts clearly showed that Estimates were scarcely any guide to expenditure. He did not see the value of the change proposed. Practically the Militia Estimates were prepared by the Government, and were allowed by the House; but in the Committee Gentlemen holding high rank could express their opinions with much more ease and familiarity than they could in the House; and he did not see the advantage of giving up any possible check upon the Government which the sitting of the Committee afforded. The House would always look with jealousy upon financial power as affecting the militia. There was another question which he hoped the right hon. Gentleman had considered, and that was the omission of the details of militia expenditure from the published accounts. The House was aware that the expenditure of the army was published in detail after it had been incurred; and although it was true they did not get the accounts until some time after the expenditure, still the detailed account was the only document which showed how vast millions were expended. But in the Militia Accounts No. 4 was a blank page. If it were not intended to make an alteration, he would bring the matter under the consideration of the House. As matters stood the large sums voted for the militia were practically not explained in the usual form. The matter was noticed by the Committee on Public Accounts in one of their Reports, and the

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defect he complained of ought to be corrected by the Government giving the militia expenditure in detail in the same manner as the army expenditure was given.
SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, that the present practice was to present a detailed account in respect of the embodied militia, and it was included in the annual army account; but in respect of the disembodied militia the expense was given annually in a total sum, but without details. All the money, however, was spent under the administration of the War Office, and ample materials existed there for a detailed account. He should be happy to give the details to any extent that might be desired by the House.
GENERAL PEELsaid, he considered that it would be of great advantage to have the Militia Estimates submitted to the House along with the Army Estimates, so that hon. Members could see at one glance what was to be the whole military expenditure for the year. If that were the object of the right hon. Gentleman's Resolution, he would be willing to accept it. Hitherto they had only learned incidentally what were the expenses of the disembodied militia when the Chancellor of the Exchequer made his annual statement. If, however, there were any advantage in having the Estimates submitted to a Committee, there was no reason why that advantage should not be continued, as it might be if the Committee were to sit at an earlier period of the Session.
COLONEL DICKSONsaid, that after what had been said by the right hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Willoughby) and by the right hon. Gentleman below him (General Peel), and after the almost vain attempts made to reduce the expenditure last year, a little time ought to be allowed to them to consider what effect the right hon. Baronet's Resolution would probably have. They had had short notice of the Resolution.
SIR GEORGE LEWIS: I gave notice of it on the first night of the Session.
COLONEL DICKSONsaid, that the notice was certainly short, and hon. Members might not have paid attention to it on the first night of the Session. He hoped they might have time to consider the matter before the Resolution was pressed, especially as some officers had said, that if the House were divided, they would vote against the Motion.
SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, that he could not have given longer notice unless
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he had brought the matter forward last Session; and if he postponed it, it would be for another year, inasmuch as it would be impossible to frame the current Estimates upon a Resolution so postponed.
Motion agreed to.
Resolved,
That in the opinion of this House, it is expedient to discontinue the practice of appointing a Select Committee to prepare Estimates of the charge of the Disembodied Militia of Great Britain and Ireland; and that such Estimates be in future prepared on the responsibility of Ministers of the Crown.

BIRTHS, &c. REGISTRATION (IRELAND).

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  SIR ROBERT PEEL, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the Registration of Births and Deaths in Ireland, said, Sir, although there can be no question of the value and importance of a national system of registration, there is such a variety of interests involved in this question that I feel it is desirable I should make a few remarks. It is undoubtedly a great deficiency that in a country like Ireland, having a population amounting to nearly six millions, there should be no systematic collection of the statistics of human life. As a scientific record, a system of registration would be of immense utility in many respects. It would be very beneficial, for instance, in promoting sanitary reforms. In Ireland there is at present a great want of information as to any increase of sickness or disease, especially in populous towns or in remote country places. If correct data could be obtained as to the health of the people, measures would be more promptly and effectually taken to mitigate the intensity of disease or circumscribe its limits. This is a subject which has excited considerable interest in Ireland. In December last a resolution declaring the necessity for and the probable benefits of a system of registration was carried on the motion of the President of the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland at a meeting in Limerick. I have also had the honour of receiving deputations who urged the importance of legislation on the matter. I received deputations from the Royal College of Surgeons, the Royal Medical Council, the Statistical Society, and the Social Science Association. I asked them to put their views in writing, in order that the Government, in framing a Bill, might meet their wishes as far as possible. They complied with my request, and in the document

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  which they forwarded to me they expressed the hope that the dispensary districts would be adopted, and the registration of births and deaths be made compulsory. It is not necessary to say that the measure which I am now seeking to introduce is not in any way affected by political considerations. All classes will be benefited by its adoption in Ireland, not as a mere registration of births and deaths, but as a plan for bringing annually before the public, as in England and Scotland, the causes affecting the health of the community. Ireland is almost the only civilized country in the world where no such system of civil registration of births and deaths exists. We frequently hear of great losses incurred by poor persons from their inability to prove their heirship or connection with rich parties dying intestate in the colonies or in foreign countries. It is, therefore, a matter of the first importance that we should pass a measure for obviating those difficulties. The English Act was passed in 1836. It caused a good deal of agitation at the time, but it has worked admirably. The passing of the Scotch Act was even more strongly opposed, and it was not until 1854, after an agitation of twenty years, that the opposition was overcome. The Scotch Act is au improvement upon the English one. I have carefully compared, in conjunction with Registrar General Donnelly and Registrar General Dundas, the Scotch and English systems, and there can he no doubt that the Scotch system is far superior to the one in force in England. Allow me to mention the differences which exist between the two Acts. In a Report published by Registrar General Graham it is stated that the English system should be compulsory instead of permissive; that the number of informants qualified to sign the register is too limited; that more time should be allowed for registration; and that medical men should be compelled to state the cause of death. All these points, in which, according to Mr. Graham, the English system is defective, have been included in the Scotch Act. The Scotch system of registration is compulsory; the number of informants qualified to sign the register is greater than in England; informants are compelled to attend personally and state the particulars to be recorded; the time for gratuitous registration of births is three months instead of forty-two days, as in England; and medical practitioners are required to send in a written
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  certificate of the cause of death. When preparing the Bill which I am about to introduce, it became my duty to consider whether I should not embrace in it those provisions of the Scotch Act which were not to be found in the English one, which, nevertheless, have worked well in Scotland, and which Registrar General Graham thinks ought now to be adopted in England. To show the superiority of the Scotch system, I may mention that it has been ascertained, upon a six years' average of the registration of births, that the average gives in Scotland a proportion of 347 in every 10,000 of the population per annum, being rather a higher average than that of England, which is only 343 in every 10,000 of the population. I need not say that the principal points to be considered in the construction of such a Bill are the machinery, the size of the districts, and the expense to be entailed. I have thought, that if upon those three points I could meet the views of Irish Members generally, I might be able to pass a Bill during the present Session. Last year I proposed a plan which had been originally submitted by the noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth (Lord Naas). Its object was to make the constabulary the registrars and superintendent registrars. If that plan had been adopted, the districts would have coincided with the areas in which the constabulary act. I think, however, the noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth will agree with me that, whatever might be the plan adopted, the general feeling in this House was not in favour of using the constabulary for that purpose. I have considered the matter carefully during the recess, and my firm conviction now is that it would be impossible, with the concurrence of this House or of the country, to work a system of registration by the action of the constabulary. The constabulary are fully occupied with the duties which they now perform, and which, I am hound to say they discharge most efficiently; and I think it would be injudicious to burden them with the work which would devolve upon them as registrars and superintendent registrars. In the Bill which I have now the honour to propose, therefore, I have adopted a system in conformity with that in operation in England—that is to say, I have adopted what I may call the Pool-Law system, so that the areas or districts will be the areas of the unions, the dispensing medical officers of the unions will he the registrars, and the clerks of the unions

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  will be the superintendent registrars. I believe that is the scheme which, on the whole, will meet with the greatest amount of support from the Irish Members, and I believe it is the scheme which is likely to work best for the social and sanitary improvement of the people of Ireland. The Poor Law districts are well known, whereas considerable inconvenience would have resulted in that respect from the employment of the constabulary. We have, therefore, followed the Poor Law system, and I think the districts will be found very suitable for the purposes of the registration. In Scotland there is a great disparity between the extent of the areas. I am informed by Registrar General Dundas, from whom I have received valuable assistance in this matter, that in Scotland, while some of the registration districts contain 30,000, 40,000 and even 50,000 inhabitants, others contain not more than 400 or 500. There are 1,000 districts altogether in that country, but the great variation in their extent, coupled with the compulsory principle of registration, works rather prejudicially for the interests of the poor. The area of Scotland and Ireland as hon. Members know, is very nearly the same; but in Ireland we propose to have the system much better arranged. The districts will be very much of one size, the average population of each being 7,400. Besides 163 unions we have 718 dispensary districts with 777 dispensary medical officers—thus forming an admirable machinery ready to our hand. These dispensary medical officers are superior to the village doctors in England; many of them have professional connections extending over large tracts of country, and I believe they will be able to furnish most valuable returns. We next come to the question of expense. The deputations I had the honour to receive at Dublin from the College of Surgeons, the Statistical Society, and the Social Science Association, all recommended that the remuneration of the registrars should be defrayed from the local rates, but that the superintendent registrars should be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. I gave the best attention I could to these suggestions, and the proposal I have now to make is, that the registrars should be paid, as in England, out of the rates, but that the superintendent registrars should receive their fees out of the Consolidated Fund. Considering the advantage that will be derived by all classes from this measure,
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  the total burden that will be thrown upon the public will be comparatively very trifling—namely, £16,000 a year, or just upon five-sixteenths of a penny in the pound on the whole rateable valuation of Ireland. We propose, then, to pay the registrars 1s. for each entry, and the superintendent registrars 2d. The stationery and boxes will be supplied by the Government as in England and Scotland. There will be no other outlay attending the scheme except the salary of the Registrar General, which we propose to increase to £1,000 a year, in consideration of the additional duties to be devolved upon him. This subject has already been before Parliament two or three times. The Registrar General of England formerly received £1,000 a year, and now receives £1,200; but it must be recollected that he has charge of three times the population of Ireland, and has three times the amount of registration to attend to. In Ireland 130 union-houses out of the whole number, namely 163, are built upon a uniform plan, and consequently the office of the clerk of the union, who will be the superintendent registrar, will be very convenient for this purpose. Moreover, the union houses are generally in a central situation, and thus every facility will be afforded for the registration. After the most careful consideration of the subject, I think that no better plan than this can be devised. It brings us in Ireland into harmony with the system pursued in England, and also, to a great extent, into conformity with the system adopted in Scotland. We require by this Bill the compulsory attendance of the parties. This is absolutely necessary; and Registrar General Graham says the want of it is one of the chief blots in the English system. The only other point on which I need trespass on the time of the House is a very important one, namely, the medical certificates. We wish to make our scheme as complete as possible, in order to obtain not a mere registration of births and deaths, but a scientific record of vital statistics, and with that view we have introduced into our Bill a provision which we think will meet the approval of the medical officers. We have not desired, as is done in Scotland, to make it binding on them penally to give the return. From the opportunities I have had of conversing with the President of the Royal College of Surgeons, and judging also from other sources of information, I believe that the

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  medical officers generally will be prepared to co-operate with the State, and to furnish it with the requisite particulars as to the deaths of persons whom they may have attended professionally with greater readiness if it is left to them to do it freely, instead of its being made compulsory on them by the insertion of a penal clause. I have nothing further to add, except that I shall be glad to reply, as far as I am able, to any remarks which hon. Gentlemen may offer on the measure, a brief outline of the main features and provisions of which I have now given. The Bill has been conceived in a most liberal and impartial spirit, with a desire as much as possible to conciliate all classes of the community; and as I feel quite certain that by its adoption a great work of national improvement will he promoted, I hope that it will not only receive the favourable consideration of this House, but that the present Session will not close without seeing it passed into law. I beg, therefore, now to move for leave to bring in the Bill.
  LORD NAASsaid, be was glad that his right hon. Friend had thus early in the Session called the attention of the House to that important subject. It was really a disgrace to the country that any portion of the United Kingdom should be left for so many years without an efficient system of registration of births, deaths, and he would add, of marriages. With the exception of Turkey, he believed his hon. Friend was justified in saying that Ireland was the only country in Europe without such a system. At the same time, he could not congratulate his right hon. Friend upon the result of the experience he had gained during the recess, as to the means by which he proposed to supply the desideratum. He was afraid that his hon. Friend had got into the hands of the doctors, and his opinion was that there were few men who were much better for that. Of all the methods which had been proposed for obtaining these very important statistics that which called in the aid of the doctors was perhaps the worst. [Mr. BRADY: Oh!] His hon. Friend had a professional sympathy, but he (Lord Naas) had none, and therefore he repeated that they were about the very worst machinery that could be used. It appeared by his right hon. Friend's Bill that it was proposed to limit the choice of boards of guardians to the dispensary doctors, who were to have a primâ facie right to these appointments, wholly irrespective
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  of their qualifications, their leisure, place of residence, or any other consideration. That, to his mind, was a very grave objection to the Bill. Now, that was not the case in England; for although it was perfectly true that in England a great number of medical men held the appointments, yet the choice of the appointing bodies was not limited, and, in point of fact, it was found that some of the most efficient registrars in this country were not medical men, nor in any way connected with the medical profession. Then, again, many of the medical men in Ireland were in very large practice, and their time very valuable. By the Bill they made the registration of the birth or death compulsory upon the person, who would have to go many miles to give the information to the registrar, and in nine cases out of ten the person would find the registrar away from home. That was an inevitable result, and therefore it was that he contended that the doctor in Ireland, from his high position, his large practice, and the demands upon his time, was of all others the most unsuitable man for the post. The duties were such that they could be performed quite as well by a clerk as by the highest surgeon, and therefore he thought the imposing of them upon medical men was a great mistake. Then, with regard to the size of the dispensary districts. The size of them was very great indeed; and if they made the registration compulsory, they would find great inconvenience and hardship the consequence, causing people to travel, perhaps fifteen or twenty miles, to register the birth or death of a particular member of their family. Such were a few of the objections he had to urge against the Bill. He thought it would be much better to leave it to the discretion of boards of guardians to appoint such parties as they might think fit. There was one important omission in the Bill, which he much regretted. It made no provision for the accurate registration of marriages, a matter so materially bound up with the question of property. Indeed, with regard to that subject, the register of the marriage was of primary importance, as determining the right of succession, legitimacy, and other questions upon which the possession of property turned. An admirable scheme of marriage registration had been laid before the Committee, which there was every reason to believe would receive the assent of a large majority of the community. He knew the question was a very delicate one; but it was

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  perfectly possible to avoid the main difficulty by showing that the registration was in no way connected with the law of marriage. He still hoped his right hon. Friend would be induced to devote his attention to this part of the question. There was ample information at his disposal, as all the leaders of the different political and religious parties in Ireland had publicly expressed their opinions on the question, and his right hon. Friend had nothing to do but to take those opinions and adopt the best plan recommended by them. He did not mean to offer any serious opposition to this measure, but he reserved to himself the power, if he should think fit, not only to offer amendments as regarded the registration of births and deaths, but also to extend its provisions to the registration of marriages in Ireland.
  MR. BRADYsaid, it was a disgrace to the nineteenth century that any portion of the kingdom should be without a proper registration of births, deaths, and marriages. He regarded an efficient system of registration of births and deaths as most important, not only in a statistical and social, but also in a moral point of view. But to make it effective there must be a proper staff; and, apart from his professional predilections, he maintained that medical men were of all classes the best qualified to act as registrars. In England butchers and bakers were appointed registrars, who, in copying the cause of death from the medical certificate, were often totally at a loss, being ignorant of the professional meaning of the terms employed. It was true, no doubt, that dispensary doctors in Ireland were in full employment, but there was on that very account no difficulty in handing to them the particulars for registration, as they were almost always engaged in the houses where either deaths or births took place. He saw no necessity, however, for the appointment of superintendent registrars, as the medical men who were to act as registrars were better educated and a superior class of men in many respects to the clerks of the unions whom it was proposed to place over them. He therefore would suggest that that provision of the Bill should be withdrawn. Upon the whole, however, he thanked the right hon. Baronet for having introduced the Bill, which, after some alterations had been introduced, would, no doubt, be likely to produce a beneficial result.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, he congratulated
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  the right hon. Baronet in getting out of the hands of Sir Henry Browning and the police of Ireland. He was amazed when Sir Henry Browning stated in the Committee that in order to make the Bill popular it should be placed in the hands of the police, and that any village constable could make an entry of a birth, death, or marriage as well as a clergyman of any religious denomination in Ireland. He was glad that the right hon. Baronet had given up so unpopular a scheme as that, because nothing could be more unpopular than to commit these duties to the Irish constabulary. He thought the doctors were the right men to whom they should be intrusted, and he was glad the right hon. Baronet had saved the Bill from what would have endangered it in that House, or, if passed, would have destroyed its working in Ireland. The alleged difficulty of getting dispensing doctors who had lucrative practices to act as registrars for a trifling remuneration could be met, if it existed, by giving the board of guardians power in such cases to appoint some other persons to act as registrars. Some observations had been made respecting the clerks to the boards of guardians, but from his experience he believed those gentlemen were well qualified to collect the statistics in the manner prescribed by the Bill.
  MR. M'MAHONsaid, he was also glad that the right hon. Baronet had avoided the introduction of the police in the Bill. He should, however, find it his duty to oppose it, for reasons which he believed were largely shared in by the community in Ireland. The measure would entail upon the people of Ireland an expense of £16,000 a year at a time when all complained of being overtaxed for local purposes, and they naturally desired to know what return they would get. Social science might find some advantage in the statistics, but he believed the Bill would be of no real value unless it incorporated a provision for registering marriages. The right hon. Baronet said the Bill would be of great advantage in enabling persons to establish heirships, but what would be the use of proving a birth or death unless they also proved the marriage? He believed the timidity to introduce such a system arose from the unwillingness to repeal the penal enactment against Catholic priests who celebrated mixed marriages. If the right hon. Baronet would make up his mind to repeal that enactment, so opposed to the spirit

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  of the present time, and would introduce a system of registration of marriages, he would entitle himself to the gratitude of the great bulk of the people of that country.
  MR. GEORGEsaid, he must express his surprise, after so long a time had elapsed since the subject was first under discussion, that the right hon. Baronet had not thought proper to bring in a Bill relating to marriages as well as births and deaths. The Committee appointed by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor which sat two years ago, and was composed of men of every creed and denomination, came to an almost unanimous resolution that there ought to be registration of marriages in Ireland, and that such a registration might be easily effected by the clergy of different denominations, who should receive a small fee, and send the registers to a chief office in Dublin. From the spirit manifested before that Committee, he did not anticipate there would be any difficulty in getting rid of the obnoxious Act of the 19th Geo. II., and of establishing a perfect system of registration for marriages as well as births and deaths. He thought that bugbear Act might be swept away with perfect safety to the Protestant religion, and without producing bad feeling on the part of any other denomination, if the subject were dealt with in a comprehensive spirit. In his opinion the Government had done wisely in dropping the plan of employing the constabulary, against which there were many grave and constitutional objections, but he hoped a wide discretion would be left to the Government or the boards of guardians, as a precaution against the possible inefficiency of the doctors in carrying out the provisions of the Bill, because it was not to be forgotten that doctors were not necessarily present at all deaths, and were only present at a proportionate number of births. As to the clerks of unions acting as superintendent registrars, they had no time to spare for duties extraneous to their office, and he doubted the propriety of giving them the appointment. He did not understand whether the registrars were to be paid out of the poor rate or county rate.
  SIR ROBERT PEEL: The superintendent registrars will be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and the registrars out of the poor rate.
  MR. GEORGEsaid, it would be a greater boon to Ireland if the whole ex-
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  pense were borne by the Consolidated Fund. He did not think it was the part of a wise statesman to increase the local burdens in that country at a time when those burdens were too heavy for a large portion of the ratepayers, and when a very large amount of distress existed amongst the small tillage farmers of Ireland.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, in his opinion the right hon. Baronet had acted wisely in bringing in a Bill for the registration of births and deaths, and omitting marriages. The reason was obvious. Births and deaths were matters of fact, but questions of marriages involved other subjects of a far more difficult and delicate character, especially in a country like Ireland, where there were different religious denominations who celebrated marriages in a different way and on a different principle. In accordance with the highest authority among Roman Catholics in Ireland, he could state that the present marriage law was satisfactory to the largest portion of the population, and he would advise the Government not to get into hot water by interfering with it. On principle, the law as to mixed marriages was undesirable, because it was a penal law and produced no good effects, but he did not think that the grievance was at all felt in Ireland. No doubt marriages ought to be registered, and he was far from saying that a Bill for the purpose could not be concocted, but it ought to be dealt with as a separate question, and perfectly distinct from the registration of births and deaths. He was very glad, therefore, that it was not included in the Bill; and if the subject were referred to a Committee, he should be happy to give all the assistance which it was in his power to afford towards producing a satisfactory measure.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he agreed with the hon. Baronet (Sir George Bowyer) that it would be most difficult to deal with the marriage question in the same Bill that related to births and deaths. As regarded the charge upon the counties, it would only be five-sixteenths of a penny in the pound, and the total valuation of Ireland being £12,400,000, the charge imposed by the Bill would be a little more than £16,000. The charge, he thought, was too small to be the subject of serious objection ou the part of the Irish Members.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill for the Registration of Births and

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  Deaths in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Sir ROBERT PEEL, Sir GEORGE GREY, and Mr. CARDWELL.
  Bill presented, and read 1o. [Bill 9.]

ECCLESIASTICAL REVENUES.

  SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED.
  MR. HENRY SEYMOURsaid, he rose to move the reappointment of the Select Committee to inquire into the present state of the Ecclesiastical Commission, and to report to the House whether the Ecclesiastical Revenues could not be more advantageously administered for the interests of the Church than at present. The Committee sat last year, and before the close of its labours collected a large amount of evidence; and not having time to complete their investigation, had agreed to a Report recommending the reappointment of the Committee this Session. There was further evidence which it was desirable should be taken before the Committee made its Report, but he did not apprehend that the inquiry would be of a protracted nature.
  Motion agreed to.
  Select Committee appointed,
  "To inquire into the present state of the Ecclesiastical Commission, and to report to the House whether the Ecclesiastical Revenues cannot be more advantageously administered for the interests of the Church than they are at present."
  House adjourned at Twenty minutes before Eight o'clock.

HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
THE LORD STEWARD reported Her Majesty's Most Gracious Answer to the Address, as follows:—
"MY LORDS,
"I SINCERELY thank you for your loyal and dutiful Address.
"It is particularly gratifying to Me to be assured that you participate in My Feelings on the intended Marriage of the Prince of Wales, and in the Confidence that by God's Blessing this Event will Conduce to the Happiness of My Family and the Welfare of My People."

CHARITABLE ENDOWMENTS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD WROTTESLEYinquired, Whether the Government propose to introduce any Measure for the Purpose of carrying into effect the Recommendations of the Education Commissioners in reference to
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  Charitable Endowments? The Question related to a subject of considerable importance and interest. It would not be difficult, to show that both the education of the poor and their general welfare might be advanced by an improved administration of our charitable endowments. Having acted for several years on a Commission of Inquiry into these charities, and having been a Member of various Committees to which were referred Bills for the establishment of a permanent Charitable Commission, he had read with great interest that part of the Report of the Education Commissioners which described the present condition of those endowments, and suggested measures of reform. The evils and abuses there described were not new to him. As far back as 1835, when he was examined before a Committee of the House of Commons on the subject, he had suggested remedies for some of them, and, in common doubtless with many of their Lordships, he had hoped that the Bill of 1853 would have provided a remedy, if not for all, at least for a considerable part of them. It would be remembered, however, that during the progress of the Bill through a Committee of their Lordships' House some of the powers proposed to be conferred on the Commissioners were considerably curtailed, owing, perhaps, to some mistrust of a new and untried Board. But, although he had been disappointed in that hope, still much good had been done by the labours of the able Gentlemen who conducted the inquiry. Under the present system, a sum amounting to about a million and a half a year, was distributed among the poor from charitable endowments, and he thought it no exaggeration to say that a large portion of this sum was wasted, and worse than wasted, for it was applied in ways that were positively mischievous. A portion of the money was applied in paying the stipends of grammar schoolmasters who had very few pupils, and who wished to have none. Another portion was employed, or rather squandered, in the encouragement of profligacy and vice. The evils of the system were so great, and the advantages that would follow a reform so manifest, that one was sometimes inclined to wish that Parliament should at once pass a general measure to put an end at once and for ever to all the absurdities annexed to bequests by founders, who thought they could foresee the wants of the community throughout all time. There were several

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  classes of foundation to which it was desirable the attention of the Legislature should be called. The first was that numerous class in which some portion of the income of the charities was directed to objects which were generally admitted to be good—such as schools or hospitals—but in which the larger portion was applied to objects of a more questionable character which overshadowed those that were beneficial. The next class was that in which the object of the charity was a good one at the time of the foundation, but had, owing to the altered state of local circumstances or to the changed state of society generally, become one which it was difficult or impossible to carry out, or which, at all events, was at variance with enlightened views of public policy. There was another class which was one in which the foundation itself was good—where no fault was to be found with the trust—but where the administration was bad. Much information on this subject was contained in the Report of the Education Commissioners, a document of which it was impossible to speak too highly. He did not mean to say that he concurred in all the recommendations of the Report, but, as a great and impartial account of the state of popular education at the time it was written, and as a document distinguished for liberal and enlightened views, it was impossible to over-estimate that Report. His opinion was that authority should be committed to some competent Board, such as the Charity Commissioners, or the Committee of Privy Council, who would direct and enforce a proper administration of the funds, or one more in harmony with public policy. It was wholly unnecessary for him to occupy their Lordships' time with cases illustrative of these abuses, for they were abundantly set forth in the Report of the Commissioners; but still he might be allowed to cite a few. There were educational charities in which the income was principally directed to be applied in the board and lodging of children. Such a direction involved the expense of erecting buildings and the heavy item of solicitors' costs. Thus he found that a sum of £1,600 was devoted to educating fifty boys at an expense of £32 a head, though the same class of education was given for 30 s, a head in the National School near at hand. There were the cases in which no provision was made for removing ignorant, incapable or immoral masters. He need not dwell upon the necessity of a law which would
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  get rid of such persons. To show the mischief attendant on indiscriminate charities, he might mention those charities which were called "bread charities," when an allowance of bread was given each Sunday to whoever of a particular class went to church; the clergyman used to say that he could tell by looking at the seats whose turn it was to get bread; but as the donation of bread was limited to only four Sundays in the month, when a month occurred in which there was a fifth Sunday the church was comparatively empty, for no bread was given that day. Then there were the provisions in the regulations framed by the donor of the charity, which scarcely corresponded with the spirit of the present day—that the master of an hospital, for instance, was to be in holy orders, and to wear the same dress and to take his food at the same table with the alms people. To prove the mischief attendant on the indiscriminate distribution of a large sum of money in small shares, he would only adduce the instance of the Manchester Charity, which dispensed every year £2,600, and so carelessly that one woman received three sums under three different names. Then, again, there was a London parish in which every year £200 was given away in shillings and one-and-six-penees, and the days on which the distribution was made the gin palaces in the neighbourhood hired additional waiters to sell the gin which was called for by the recipients of the money. In one case, where 40 s. was annually doled out in sixpences, he suggested that more ought to be given, and received the reply that the churchwardens would be torn to pieces if the distribution became more liberal. The most objectionable class of charity, however, was that in which it was given for the pool generally, and no words were added to fetter the discretion of the trusts. The sums thus, he might say, wickedly misemployed, might surely be made applicable to better purposes, and this might be done without interfering with the bonâ fide intentions of the founders. Would it not be well to transfer to a competent Board, such as the Charity Commissioners or the Committee of the Privy Council, the general administration of these charities? He approved the suggestion of the Commission on Education, that the Board of Charity Commissioners should he incorporated with the Privy Council. But the mode of passing schemes which was recommended would not succeed; for if the Privy Council

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  had to go to Parliament in every case, they would be defeated by local clamour and prejudice. The true course was to adopt the provisions of the Bill introduced in 1853 before it was altered by the Committee of this House. By that Bill the scheme, after being finally settled, and after full notice to the parties concerned, was to be laid on the table of the two Houses, and, if unopposed, within three months became ipso facto the law. If Parliament were unwilling to intrust to a Board like the Privy Council the power of preparing and originating schemes as provided for in that Bill, the mischief he had described would continue; and, in that case, he thought that the public would have a just right to complain of the Legislature for having reformed the University statutes, in which the rich were interested, and neglected to reform these endowments, in which the poor were chiefly concerned. He would now ask, whether the Government proposed to introduce any Measure for the purpose of carrying into effect the Recommendations of the Education Commissioners in reference to Charitable Endowments?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he agreed with a great part of the observations which had just been addressed to their Lordships, supported as they were by the practical experience of his noble Friend. He agreed also in the conclusion come to by the Education Commissioners that these endowments might be made more available than they now were for the furtherance of popular education, and that in many cases they might be diverted from useless or even injurious objects, and employed for educational purposes. He also entirely agreed with the noble Lord as to the beneficial effect which would have resulted from the passing of the Bill which was introduced in 1853. The result of the existing system had hitherto been, that when the Charity Commissioners took in hand some of the most obvious and easy improvements, they found that they had not the power to carry them out; they were then compelled to have recourse to the Court of Chancery, where in nine cases out of ten the fund was dissipated before a scheme could be framed. An Act, however, had passed at the close of last Session increasing the powers of the Commissioners, and transferring to them powers which before that time bail been exercised by the Court of Chancery. A question had since arisen as to the construction of
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  that Act; it was held to be doubtful whether charities as to which the Court of Chancery had already given orders came within the scope of the Bill, and thus several urgent cases had not yet been dealt with. There had not yet been sufficient time to test the working of this measure, but it appeared to be progressing satisfactorily. With regard to the recommendations contained in the Report of the Education Commissioners, the most important was that the functions of the Charity Commissioners should be transferred to the Educational Committee of the Privy Council; that this body should prepare schemes; that there should be an appeal from the local bodies to another Committee of the Privy Council; and that afterwards such schemes should be submitted to Parliament. With regard to administrative details, there was much to be said for and against the plan proposed; but he doubted very much whether Parliament would agree to the main principle of that plan, which would transfer to the Committee of Privy Council powers which would render them a quasi -judicial body—powers which hitherto had been exercised only by the Court of Chancery. He might also observe that the Charity Commissioners had now the advantage of the presence of the Vice President of the Council, who formed a sort of link between them and Parliament, and he doubted whether Parliament would approve of the transfer of the functions of a quasi-judicial Board loan executive and administrative department of the State like the Privy Council. Other suggestions which had been made, such as an easy method of registering endowments, were of much importance, and were under the consideration of the Government; but he did not think it advisable that the powers in question should be transferred entirely from the Charity Commissioners to the Department over which he had the honour to preside.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF POWISwished to ask the noble Earl the President of the Council, If he had any objection to state what measures were likely to be introduced into that House before Easter, and thus to remove the ominous haze which surrounded the Speech from the Throne?
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that he would in a few days state to their Lordships what measures of public business the

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Government proposed to bring forward in their Lordships' House.
House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow half past Ten o'clock.