Sitting of 30 April 1863

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—on Ecclesiastical Commission, nominated (List of Members.)
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Accidents Compensation [Bill 103]; Watchmen in Towns (Ireland) [Bill 102].
Second Reading—Customs and Inland Revenue [Bill 91].
Committee—Stock Certificates to Bearer [Bill 76]; Consolidated Fund (£20,000,000); Exchequer Bonds (£1,000,000); Borough Residence Uniform Measurement [Bill 60], negatived; Judgments Law Amendment (Ireland) [Mr. Whiteside] [Bill 71], r. p.; Jurors' Remuneration [Bill 36].
Report—Stock Certificates to Bearer [Bill 100]; Consolidated Fund (£20,000,000): Exchequer Bonds (£1,000,000); Jurors' Remuneration [Bill 101], and re-committed.
Considered as amended—Marriages, &c. (Ireland) [Sir E. Grogan] [Bill 88].
Third Reading—Telegraphs [Bill 78], and passed.

NAVAL BARRACKS.—QUESTION.
MR. ADDINGTONsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether, in the naval barracks now building and ordered to be built at the different dockyards, provision will be made for the accommodation of the wives and children of sailors, in the same manner as exists at present for the families of soldiers in military barracks?
LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, in reply, that was a question which the Admiralty had considered very carefully, and they had come to the conclusion that at the present moment it would not be advisable to construct naval barracks with the view to give accommodation to the wives and families of sailors. The fact was, that naval barracks stood on a totally different footing from military barracks. Soldiers, with their wives and families, marched out from one barrack to another; but sailors only occupied barracks temporarily during their absence from their ships; and if accommodation were provided for their wives and families, when they themselves went to

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sea those wives and families would have to be turned out without any shelter. A very great inconvenience would thus be created, and it was not therefore proposed by the Admiralty that any provision should be made for the accommodation of the wives and families of sailors.
MR. ADDINGTONsaid, he wished to know whether it is proposed that any provision shall be made fur the instruction of the children of sailors?
LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, that if the Admiralty saw their way to any provision for that purpose, they would willingly adopt it; but they were not at present prepared with any scheme upon the subject.

STAMPS ON DELIVERY ORDERS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BASSsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he will state the amount, or computed amount, of revenue which has been derived from stamps on delivery orders?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, in reply, said, he was not prepared to give any answer to his hon. Friend which was worthy the name of an estimate. He could" only give a conjecture as to the amount received. One or two other duties, which made use of the same stamp, were imposed with the stamp on the delivery orders; and it was only by deducting the probable amount of those other stamp duties that any attempt at forming an estimate could be made. The sum which was probably realized under the head of stamps on delivery orders was £40,000.

DANGEROUS LUNATICS IN IRELAND.

  QUESTION.
  MR. MACEVOYsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether the Government will this Session introduce a Bill to extend to Ireland such provisions of the Act 16 & 17 Vict., c. 97, as will enable magistrates to commit dangerous lunatics direct to asylums instead of to the county gaols, as is now necessary?
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, no doubt considerable inconvenience existed from the present practice. The Government had, however, undertaken the erection of some lunatic asylums; and when they were ready, some alteration would no doubt be made in the existing law.
  MR. MACEVOYsaid, he would beg to ask the right hon. Baronet if he is not aware,
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  that although there are lunatic asylums at present, the magistrates are compelled to send criminal lunatics in the first place to gaols, He should be glad to know if there is any intention of bringing in a Bill to alter that state of the law?
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, the matter had been under consideration; and when the new lunatic asylums were completed, an alteration in the law would no doubt be made.

SCHOOL OF NAVAL ARCHITECTURE.

  QUESTION.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether the Board has considered the necessity of some revival of a School of Naval Architecture; and whether, in the event of such an institution being established on a basis approved by the Board, they would be disposed to extend to it encouragement and support?
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, in reply, that the Admiralty were quite impressed with the absolute necessity of some step being taken for the promotion of that most important branch of science—naval architecture; and he could state that any proposal which might be made with a view to establish an institution for that purpose would be favourably considered by the Admiralty, who would render any assistance in their power to carry it into effect. No such proposal, however, had as yet been brought under their notice, but the subject was under their consideration.

  COLONIAL BISHOPRICS.—QUESTION.
  MR. LEFROYsaid, he rose to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, If any of the five Colonial Bishoprics which have been vacant has been offered to any of the Irish Clergy?
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, that he should, perhaps, best answer the Question of his hon. Friend by describing the present state of those five Sees. They were Gibraltar, Goulburn in Australia, Quebec, Tasmania, and Nassau. With respect to the See of Gibraltar, his noble Friend (the Duke of Newcastle) was in communication with the Archbishop of Canterbury, with whom the appointment virtually rested. With respect to the new See of Goulburn, the appointment had been filled up, and the first. Bishop was in fact nominated by the late Archbishop of Canterbury. With reference to Quebec, he

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  had to state that a Bishop had been elected to that diocese by the synod of the province of Canada. In the case of Tasmania there was no actual vacancy, although one was likely soon to occur; and there was some doubt about the salary when it did occur; but the probability was that it would be found necessary to fill up the vacancy by an appointment to be made in the Colony itself. Finally, with regard to Nassau, the vacancy which had been caused by the death of Dr. Caulfield, who was an Irishman, had already been filled by his noble Friend the Colonial Secretary. The fact that the late Bishop of that diocese was an Irishman showed that there was no bar to the appointment of an Irish clergyman to a Colonial Bishopric. But he could not withhold from his hon. Friend a communication which had reached him within the last few hours. Since the notice of his hon. Friend had been placed on the Paper be had received a communication from a clergyman in Lancashire stating that he had been officiating in that county for the last twenty years, and that it was a singular fact that during the whole of that period there had been no instance of a Lancashire clergyman having been appointed a Colonial Bishop, although Lancashire contained a greater number of Churchmen than all Ireland. However that might be, he could assure his hon. Friend that the noble Duke at the head of the Colonial Office would be most ready and happy, when the opportunity offered, to show his respect for the Irish Church by choosing, if he could, a properly qualified Irish clergyman for a Colonial Bishopric.

UNEMPLOYED FACTORY OPERATIVES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. FERRANDsaid, he rose to ask the President of the Poor Law Board, Whether the number of those Factory Operatives who have never applied for nor received relief are included in his Return of the unemployed; and, also, whether there is any Return of the number of unemployed unmarried women?
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, in reply, that the Return which had been made by the Poor Law Board included those unemployed factory operatives who applied for relief, as well as those who had not applied. In answer to the second Question of the hon. Gentleman, he had to state that no Return had yet been made of unemployed unmarried women, but such a Return was at present in the course of preparation.

THE CASE OF THE "ALEXANDRA."

  QUESTION.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he wished to ask Mr. Attorney General, Whether he can state when he expects the information Against the owners of the ship Alexandra will be tried?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that he was not able at present to answer the Question of his right hon. and learned Friend.

NAVAL MODELS AT SOMERSET HOUSE.

  QUESTION.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether the statement is correct which has been made by Mr. Scott Russell, in a paper read before the Society of Naval Architects on 28th March, concerning the collection of Models at Somerset House— namely, that "It has been thrust down into a cellar, shut up in the dark, and is now effectually kept out of sight"?
  LORD CLARENCE PAGET, in reply, said, the collection of Models at Somerset House was not so satisfactorily placed as could be wished, owing to the want of room; but it was a very great Exaggeration on the part of Mr. Scott Russell to say that they "had been thrust down into a cellar, shut up in the dark, and effectually kept out of sight." That was not the state of things.

  DUTY ON CHICORY.—QUESTION.
  SIR EDWARD CODRINGTONsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Was the Duty raised on Chicory by Resolution of the House, or must there be a Bill to raise the Duty?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, in reply, that there was an Excise Duty upon British Chicory corresponding to the Customs duty on Foreign Chicory. The same course had been pursued now that had been adopted upon other similar occasions. The increase of the Customs duty was levied immediately after the Resolution had been passed by the Committee, but subject, of course, to the condition that should the House afterwards not be pleased to confirm that Resolution, the difference of duty paid would be returned. With respect to the Excise Duty upon British Chicory, that was at present a dormant question, as there would be no British Chicory until the next crop was ready.

GALWAY PACKET CONTRACT.

  QUESTIONS.
  LORD DUNKELLINsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, If the details of the Galway Contract have been agreed upon, and the cause of the delay in laying the Contract upon the table of the House?
  MR. GREGORYsaid, that before his right hon. Friend answered that question he wished to put another upon the same subject. It had been stated in another place, that the stipulations of the new Contract would be based upon the conditions of the old one. But a difference of opinion had arisen between the Post Office and the Committee of the House of Commons, of which he (Mr. Gregory) had been Chairman, as to whether the ships of the Company should go to Newfoundland in three days. He wished to know whether the Treasury had considered the matter, and whether they were prepared to state if they would abide by the opinion of the Post Office or by that of the Committee?
  MR. PEELreplied, that the Admiralty Report upon the state of the Company's ships had only reached the Treasury about three days ago; and the conditions under which the Company should be allowed to resume that service had not yet been finally determined on. The matter, however, was in a forward state. In answer to the question of his hon. Friend the Member for Galway, he had to state that the Company's vessels, under the Contract of 1859, were bound to call at St. John's on their way out and on their way home, and to land passengers and also to deliver telegraphic messages at that port if they were required to do so. But there had been a difference of opinion between the Post Office and the Company as to whether the Company were bound to deliver mails at St. Johns. The Committee of the House of Commons expressed no opinion as to the obligations of the Company under the Contract, but they did express an opinion as to the intention of the parties entering into the Contract. Considering the larger subsidy that would be payable to the Company, he thought that they ought to render every service to the public which they could be reasonably called upon to do.
  MR. E. P. BOUVERIEsaid, he wished to ask whether any proposal has been made for alternating the destination of those steam-packets at the other side of the At-
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  lantic; and, if so, whether the Government have come to any decision upon that point.
  MR. PEELsaid, that no proposal had been made to the Government with reference to a change of the port of arrival on the other side of the Atlantic. But he had been informed that parties representing interests in Canada had been in communication with the Company, with a view to convert the fortnightly service into a weekly service.

CARLTON HOUSE TERRACE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Commissioner of Works, Whether he intends to complete Carlton House Terrace upon the vacant ground where the Riding School stood; and, also, whether he will propose, during the present Session, the continuation of the carriage way from the Mall in St. James's Park to Charing Cross?
  SIR HARRY VERNEYsaid, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will be prepared to open a road from the east end of Carlton House Terrace to the northern extremity of Spring Gardens?
  MR. COWPERsaid, that Carlton House Terrace would be continued on the ground that was at present vacant, and building leases of that ground had been granted by the Crown. It was not his intention to propose during the present Session a continuation of the carriage way from the Mall in the Park to Charing Cross. It was true that such an improvement had been recommended by a Committee of the House in the year 1856. But that Committee did not advert to the funds from which the cost of that improvement was to be derived. It would involve the pulling down of the house occupied by Messrs. Barnes and Ellis, and it would also involve the widening of the northern portion of Spring Gardens. Those works would be attended with a considerable outlay, and it seemed to him that that outlay would fall most properly on the funds either in the possession of, or to be obtained by, the Metropolitan Board of Works. In answer to the Question of his hon. Friend (Sir H. Verney), he had to state that the passage leading to the gate at the northern extremity of Spring Gardens was very narrow, and that there would be no use in opening the passage for carriages without pulling down some houses.

UNITED STATES—SEIZURE OF THE "PETERHOFF "—THE MAIL-BAGS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is true that a satisfactory Despatch has been received this afternoon from America respecting the mail-bags on board the Peterhoff?
  MR. LAYARD: Sir, I have much satisfaction in stating, that by a Despatch received this morning from Lord Lyons we are informed that Mr. Seward has given directions that the mail-bags, which were taken from the Peterhoff, shall be sent at once to their destination without being opened.

CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE BILL.

  [BILL 91.] SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  LORD ROBERT CECILsaid, he had given notice of his intention to take notice that it is proposed by Section 3 of the said Bill to impose a new charge upon the people; but that the said proposal has not been referred to a Committee of the Whole House, as the custom and order of the House require. He had given this notice because, when he first saw the Bill, he was led to believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been guilty of a neglect of the Orders of the House, in introducing into the Bill a provision for the taxation of charities without the preliminary form of a Resolution in a Committee of the Whole House. He had, however, received an intimation from the highest authority that that objection would not hold, and that therefore he could not move upon that ground that the Order for the Second Reading of the Bill be discharged. But he did think that the case was one in which it was his duty to call the attention of the House to the form of procedure adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and to the hasty and unprecedented manner in which he had attempted to press the Bill. He need not point out the extreme importance of a measure which proposed for the first time in our history to tux charitable funds devoted to the sustenance of the poor, for that subject would be dealt with by his hon. Colleague on another occasion; but the subject was one of great import-
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  ance, as it was not a mere removal of an exemption, but a measure that would have a most serious effect upon the interests of those who derived the benefit from the charities of this country. The hospitals, which would be the principle subjects of the next tax, would be seriously maimed in their utility by its imposition. In the case of St. Bartholomew's Hospital, he understood the effect of the tax would be that hundreds of in-patients and thousands of out-patients would be deprived of the relief which, in the moments of their extreme necessity, they had been accustomed to receive from that institution. That was but one instance out of many such that would be affected by the tax, and therefore he might fairly regard the plan as an attempt to raise a revenue from the extreme necessities and diseases of the lowest and most helpless class for the community. It was a charge which one would have supposed the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have endeavoured to impose with the utmost possible forbearance and reserve. There was no precedent of such legislation—it was the first time that any political economist had attempted to wring a revenue from the relief afforded to those struck down by accident or disease, He did not say that therefore it was absolutely wrong; but it was a matter of such extreme importance, especially as it regarded a class which could have no representatives in that House, that the utmost latitude of discussion should have been afforded. But the course of procedure now adopted was certainly unusual. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had shown such haste in the matter, that had he not been firmly resisted, he would have proceeded with the measure on Monday last, and they would have been considering what would have been practically the final stage on that evening. He had to complain that the right hon. Gentleman had departed from the routine which, if not absolutely prescribed, had become habitual in the House, and had given them less than the ordinary facilities for discussion. The rule of the House was that no tax should be imposed unless it had been first proposed in Committee of the Whole House. Taking the obvious meaning of the words, the tax upon charities had never been proposed in Committee of the Whole House; it had been inserted in this Bill, and the first opportunity the House would have of deciding upon it would be when the Bill went into Committee. Two years ago the Chan-

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  cellor of the Exchequer deprived the House of many opportunities for discussing tax Bills by lumping them all into a single measure. Before that time separate proposals were treated in separate Bills; and now the House was restricted to the single opportunity of resisting a financial project—namely, in Committee on the Bill. Having, on account of the supposed encroachments of the House of Lords in their proceedings in regard to the paper duty, limited to such a serious extent the privileges of discussion heretofore enjoyed by this House, he thought they ought to view with great jealousy any attempt on the part of a Minister to encroach upon those privileges still further. They had told the House of Lords that they would suffer no interference in matters of taxation; but a correlative duty thereupon rested on them of supplying all the checks and safeguards which the supervision of the House of Lords would otherwise have supplied. When the proposed imposition of a tax was discussed in Committee of the Whole House before it was embodied in a Bill, the House thereby took the nation into its counsels, and enabled the public to see what were the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and between that time and the passing of the Bill there was ample time for the public to consider and to sift any such proposal. But if the House adopted the mode of procedure which the Chancellor of the Exchequer now for the first time proposed to introduce—namely, to set aside the preliminary Committee— many financial measures would pass through this House which the country would necessarily have no proper means of discussing. He understood that, technically, as the right hon. Gentleman's Resolution made use of the words "described as chargeable," instead of "charged," it was held to include all these matters. The point of order was a minute one, and he did not propose to raise it. But the tax in question had not been submitted to that amount of discussion which the forms of this House required; and now that there was only one stage in which a formal discussion of an objectionable tax could take place, he did hope that hon. Members would join him in pressing upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was only fair to the House, and the institutions upon which the tax would fall, that time should he given to enable the public voice to be full expressed upon this question.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he agreed with the noble Lord the Member for Stamford upon the constitutional importance of allowing full information to the country as to any new tax which was proposed. He wished to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in a position to place on the table any document showing the exact bearing of this new tax upon charities, and the amount of property to which the tax on charities would apply, whether in the funds or in land. It had been mentioned that this tax would mulct Christ's Hospital alone of £1,600 a year; but the only impression produced by this fact upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, "What a fine property to tax!" No doubt that reflection was very natural for a Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the principle of taxation at which it pointed was not a wise one. The proposed tax on charities, and that upon clubs, would raise questions quite out of proportion to the amount which would be received; and he should think that it would be well for the right hot). Gentleman, for his own ease and comfort, to abandon these small and vexatious imposts. If hon. Members had anything to say respecting the national finance, this was the time to say it—upon the second reading of a Bill which raised £25,000,000 of revenue; and he wished, therefore, to call attention to the state of public finance for the last two years. He could not take the sanguine view of our finance which some hon. Members seemed to take; because he found that in 1860–1 and 1861–2 there had been a deficit of nearly £5,000,000—that is to say, this House had authorized expenditure, and had never inquired into the Ways and Means to satisfy that expenditure, to the extent of £4,970,000. That deficit the Chancellor of the Exchequer had met by very objectionable methods—by laying hold of the balance of monies on account of loans to the amount of £881,000, and taking from the balances nearly £3,000,000. There could not be a more rotten system of finance. Then, again, the payments from India of £3 10 s. per head, which were made prospectively to meet claims when the men became aged and received pensions, had been taken into account, though this was merely anticipating the money necessary to meet a future demand, and could not be considered a fair item of public revenue. He confessed that he was not satisfied with the extent to which reductions had been made in public expenditure, nor did he think

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  that this House was justified in voting £68,000,000 or £69,000.000 of taxes. As compared with 1842, the revenue now demanded had increased by £17,000,000 or £18,000,000. Nothing could justify such a reckless system of expenditure in a time of peace. He believed the Treasury was utterly powerless to control the Departments, particularly the War Department; and that it was absolutely necessary for the House to exercise the greatest vigilance, and to support the Treasury in its endeavours to assume a control over the public expenditure. Holding these views, he owned that he did not contemplate with any peculiar satisfaction the present state of the finances of the country.
  SIR FRANCIS CROSSLEYsaid, he had given a general support to the Budget; but the scheme for making public charities pay the income tax was a thing he could not understand. By the scheme of taxing charities in the bulk the tax would be made to fall on a number of individuals each of whom did not receive £100 a year. Why should the recipients of charity be put in a worse position than other individuals with respect to this tax? The effect in the case of almshouses would be this:—That when a sum of money was left to them, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would, in the first instance, take 7d. in the pound for income tax; and, so much being lost to the charity, some of the persons whom it was intended to benefit by the bequest must be left to go unrelieved. It would be the same in the case of orphan charities; the deduction of the proposed tax would prevent them from supporting as many orphans as they now did. He could not think the House would agree to such a proposition as that. It was a most unwise one. Almshouses were exempted from poor rates, and he believed there was not a water company in the country that would receive payment for supplying them with water, He was of opinion that this proposal was unworthy of the high character of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  MR. HUBBARDsaid, he wished to call the attention of the House to the present state of the Income Tax. At that moment there was no such impost in the country. It had expired. As there was about to be a new imposition of the tax, he submitted to the House that they were entitled to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for something more of his mind on this subject than he had given them in his financial
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  statement. Formerly, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer asked the House to re-impose the income tax he told them something about its duration—he announced that it would decline year by year, and ultimately expire. In later times he told them that the tax was a most inconvenient one, but that it would come to an end in twelve months. They used to receive those periodic commentaries on the income tax; and he thought they were entitled now to have the Chancellor of the Exchequer's opinion as to the future of this fiscal engine of oppression. If it was to be of short duration, they ought to have the preliminary comfort to be derived from an assurance to that effect;—they had a right also to expect that the tax, if reenacted for a year only, should be let alone, or, if altered, be altered in the way of alleviation, and not by the removal of provisions which served to compensate for its many aggravations. He knew that there were hon. Gentlemen who thought, and not without grounds, that a duly-adjusted income tax would be one of the fairest and best of taxes, and might be made a permanent source of revenue; but be that as it might, the House were expecting from the Chancellor of the Exchequer a statement as to his views on the subject. On other subjects the House had consolidated all the statutes bearing on the same matter. That might be done in the case of the income tax. All the statutes bearing upon it might be reviewed and deliberately adopted or rejected by Parliament. But in the absence of any declaration of his intentions he was obliged to turn to what had been said by the right hon. Gentleman in his financial statement, and draw his inferences from what the right hon. Gentleman had stated there. One of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's propositions was, no doubt, a considerable concession to a large class of those who paid the tax. He proposed to start at £100 a year as the lowest income to be taxed, and from that sum up to £200 he proposed a continuous deduction of £60 from the amount of the income previous to assessment. He himself (Mr. Hubbard) had proposed an almost identical scheme; but his proposition was confined to industrial incomes, to the persons who earned their incomes by the sweat of their brow, or the work of their brain. He accepted the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a concession to that class; but he regretted to find that his right hon.

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  Friend gave to capital the same advantages as to industry, skill, and intelligence. He must raise his voice against the part of his right hon. Friend's proposition which had reference to incomes of from £100 to £200 a year derived from real property. He agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that £60 a year might fairly be taken as the minimum at which the income tax should begin, since that sum had been considered as the equivalent of unskilled labour. But it was obvious that they could not commence taxation at £1 or £2 over that minimum; they must make a certain leap, arid in that way they, arrived at £100, which gave them £40 a year to charge. That principle was fairly applicable to industrial incomes of £100 a year. But the concession proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to fixed incomes from £100 to £200 a year, was not warranted by any accepted principle of political economy or sound legislation. It was wholly at variance with the principles laid down by Adam Smith, and was one which the House ought never to allow to be introduced into the legislation of this country. The right hon. Gentleman, in answer to the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck), made a declaration which implied that social position ought to be taken into consideration in assessing the income tax. Such an axiom was certainly a most dangerous one. He talked, too, of there being a relative poverty among men which it was necessary to consider in adjusting the income tax.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Those were not my words. They were put by me into the mouth of a person with whom I supposed myself to be arguing.
  MR. HUBBARDsaid, he was aware of that; but what he complained of was, that the right hon. Gentleman had said that there was nothing wicked or unjust in such a proposal;—indeed, he had himself, to some extent, introduced a graduated scale of income tax. Certainly such a policy was exceedingly dangerous, and must give rise to all kinds of difficulties. He heartily agreed with one expression of the right hon. Gentleman that there should be a uniform tax upon all incomes. But then the question arose what was income for the purpose of taxation? Did the Chancellor of the Exchequer mean to rank on an equality the interest on capital, the gross rents of lands and houses, the earnings of industry, and the repayment of monies
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  lent? If he ranked them differently, why did he tax them alike? If he ranked them alike, he would ask for an answer to these three questions:—Why do you remit taxation on the premiums paid for life policies on the very plea that they are not income; why do you permit local taxation to be levied not upon the gross rental but on the net ratable value; and why do you specifically enact that the landed gentry who have borrowed from the State shall not deduct income tax on the capital repaid through the Terminable Annuities? He challenged the right hon. Gentleman to give the House a distinct reply on those points.
  MR. CLAYsaid, he desired to bespeak the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention to a case of peculiar hardship which would be worked should the right hon. Gentleman's disastrous proposition—as he would call it—for taxing charities be carried out. When the Harbour Dues and Passing Tolls Act was passed it, affected the revenue of certain corporate bodies, which were derived from certain differential duties and dues on shipping. A compromise was proposed, which was sanctioned by Parliament, the object of which was to continue the bodies in question, seven in number, in the receipt of those clues for a certain term of years, during which it was calculated they would be able to lay by a surplus sufficient to maintain their charities thereafter. The body in which he was most interested was the Trinity House of Hull. The Trinity House at Hull was to receive the dues until the year 1872, by which time it was calculated that a surplus would have accrued which would enable them to keep up their existing charities. It was calculated, that if the right hon. Gentleman's proposal were carried, he would comedown upon them for £550 a year; and the surplus therefore, which was extremely narrow, would be too small, when the year 1872 arrived, to maintain the charities according to the intention of Parliament.
  SIR JAMES FERGUSSONhoped that the right hon. Gentleman, when he made his statement, would enter into further details with regard to his proposal for extending the income tax to charities, so that these bodies might really know what they had to face. Institutions of the nature of hospitals derived their incomes from various sources—from annual subscriptions, fees from students attending lectures, funded

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  property, and extensive buildings used for hospital purposes, but which produced no revenue. It was desirable to know whether the right hon. Gentleman meant to treat all these as sources of income. Annual subscriptions and fees from students must be very fluctuating, and it would be unjust to tax the hospitals on a single year's revenue from these sources, or even on an average of three years. It was most important that the House should insist on the maintenance of all those palliatives and safeguards which were devised when the tax was first enacted, and especially that its administration should be left as much as possible in the hands of local authorities. Of late years there had been a disposition, on the part of the authorities of the Inland Revenue Department, to centralize the administration of the tax. It was of great advantage that the assessment should be made by the local authorities, because of the local knowledge which they possessed, and because they were looked upon with less jealousy than Government officials. In the Bill of last year it was provided that no fresh assessment should take place under Schedules A and B. This was done with the view of saving about £2,000; but it could be shown that they had lost more than this by the loss of the additional receipts on increased income. Either they must make an arrangement for the appointment of an assessor, or an assessment must be made by the central authority. There was an illustration of the objectionable character of the transfers of duties from local to Government authorities in the change made in 1860, transferring the collection of duties on the incomes of railway officials from Schedule D to Schedule E. Previous to the transfer, those who were in the receipt of weekly salaries amounting to £100 a year were exempted by the local authorities, for the obvious reason that such an uncertain income was not like the fixed income of persons employed by the year; but they were now charged, and in the result the railway companies who employed them had to pay, and were therefore taxed double.
  MR. BAINESsaid, that no one approved the Budget more than he did, but he could not approve the proposition in respect of the taxation of charities. He did not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer could have made a worse sweep than sweeping into his net the three objects of education, religion, and benevolence, and imposing a tax upon them. The fair view of a
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  charity was that it was not individual property, but property divisible among numerous recipients. There were extremely few cases of any recipient getting £100 a year; but, when any person did get that sum, he would leave him to the tender mercies of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. At all events, they ought not to bring the impost to bear upon existing charities, but make it applicable only to charities which might, in future, be created. If the right hon. Gentleman withdrew this clause, a Budget which had been received with great favour would become the most popular ever presented to Parliament.
  THE LORD MAYOR (Mr. Alderman ROSE)said, that being connected, for a period at least, with more charities than any other Member of that House, he desired to express his concurrence in the remarks of the hon. Member for Leeds. If these charitable institutions were taxed, the effect would be that their utility would be prorateâ diminished. The Sons of the Clergy, the Royal Hospitals, the Blind Schools, and many other institutions in the City, would have their recipients reduced in numbers in proportion to the amount deducted from their incomes by the tax; and the charitable gifts not only of persons living in the present day but of past generations would be interfered with. We might sympathize with a Chancellor of the Exchequer having to find new sources of taxation; but the amount that these charities could be made to yield would not compensate for the mischief that would follow.
  MR. BASSinquired why, when other penny taxes were swept away, the penny tax on delivery orders was to be retained?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Although there is no omnibus Bill before the House, I fear I must make an omnibus speech in answering all the various questions that have been addressed to me. I will endeavour to satisfy the minds of hon. Members on the questions they have put; and I will begin with the noble Lord who commenced this discussion (Lord R. Cecil). I am sorry to be obliged to express my dissent from every statement made by the noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil), excepting the general dictum that it is the duty of the House to pay great attention to the financial proposals submitted to them by the Government in their different stages. The noble Lord says that he could not persevere with the Motion of which he had given notice because I have used the word "chargeable" instead of "charged." The

  1005
  noble Lord is entirely wrong; the word has nothing to do with it. If the noble Lord had applied himself to the meaning of the technical language which is necessarily used in financial Bills, he would have been aware that the whole of the property which he thinks is not charged is charged. Exemption is properly a return of duty upon proof of certain facts; but the charge of duty is a prior operation which is made according to the law on the property of charities just as on any other property. A certain portion of that property is discharged altogether, but not according to the law, but by the discretion of the Government, from the almost hopeless difficulty of working the law; but according to law the whole property is actually charged. I think it is agreed that it is not desirable for me to anticipate the statement on the subject of charities which, on the part of the Government, I intend to make to the House. But, at the same time, I am obliged to take notice of the tone of exaggeration which marks a few of the statements which have just been made. The noble Lord speaks of a hundred in patients in St. Bartholomew's Hospital being refused admission in consequence of the proposal of the Government. Has the noble Lord examined into the cost of an in-patient in St. Bartholomew's Hospital, and does he know the amount of burden which St. Bartholomew's Hospital will have to bear? I cannot speak precisely, because my knowledge of the cost of in-patients in the London hospitals rests on statistical documents; but if the noble Lord has better materials, he can correct me if I am wrong. I believe that the average cost of in-patients in hospitals generally is £25. The cost varies a good deal. It is sometimes lower; but St. Bartholomew's, I should think, was higher than ordinary. The noble Lord will, perhaps, correct me if wrong.
  LORD ROBERT CECIL: I have no right to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman; but lie appeals tome, and if he desires to be accurate, he ought to be aware that it is stated upon the authority of the Treasurer that the inevitable result of this proposal will be that several hundred in, and several thousand out-patients, must annually be excluded from the benefits of St. Bartholomew's Hospital. That is a statement made by the authorities of St. Bartholomew's Hospital, and not by me.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: If the statement was not made on the responsibility of the noble Lord, I am
  1006
  sorry that I ascribed it to him, and I will endeavour to make myself as accurately acquainted as I can with every particular before I discuss the statement of persons who must be well informed. But this I may say, that the amount of the tax which would under this measure be imposed upon St. Bartholomew's Hospital would, upon an income of something more than £30,000, be about £700 a year. The annual income from their property is £36,000. and the tax which they pay now £201 a year. Deducting that £201 from a mere trifle over £1,000, which would be the gross amount, the tax imposed under the new system would be £700. What compensation they will receive for that increased taxation, I will show on a future occasion; but it is a matter which belongs so entirely to the general discussion, that it would be bitter for the present to avoid it. The noble Lord has complained that I have departed from the usual course, and have attempted to force the House to a final decision on the subject of charities to-night. He is entirely mistaken. The decision in Committee upon the Bill is not final. Formerly, according to the system of procedure in this House, Amendments could be moved and discussions raised at any stage between the Committee and the passing of a Bill; and when, a few years ago, the power of moving Amendments at stages of the progress of a Bill subsequent to the Committee was modified and limited, it was distinctly understood, that if further general discussion and further Amendments were desired, the proper course would be to move the recommittal of the Bill. That has been done over and over again, and it is a course which is entirely legitimate. The noble Lord says that I have abridged the opportunities of discussion and departed from the usual form of proceeding. I have done no such thing—there has been no abridgment of the opportunities of discussion in regard to the present Bill. The complaint of combining together the principal financial propositions of the year has no effect whatever on the matter. The question of the exemption of charities from income tax could not possibly be dealt with, except in the Income Tax Bill, and consequently could not possibly be treated otherwise than according to the present mode. The noble Lord states very boldly that I have departed from routine and order; but he has not pointed out in what manner I have done so. What are called

  1007
  charities in this country have certain property, and that property has been included within the general words of every income tax Resolution which, as far as I know, has been passed during the last twenty years. The general words of my Resolution precisely correspond with those of every other income tax Resolution, and a little reflection will show to the noble Lord that nothing could be more inconvenient and impracticable than to attempt to indicate in a Resolution not only the general character of the profit and gains and property which it is intended to tax, but likewise the different orders and descriptions of proprietors to whom they belong. The hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Hubbard) might as well complain that I had not indicated in the general Resolution the particular orders of proprietors for whom he is interested. Not only has there been no departure from routine, but really I had no option as to the course which I should pursue. The hon. Baronet (Sir H. Willoughby), who followed the noble Lord, invariable speaks upon subjects of finance with such a conscientious care, with such a perfect public integrity, and with such an entire absence of all personal and party objects, that although I frequently come under his stringent criticisms, I cannot listen to him otherwise than with pleasure, even when I am not able to concur with him in his views. The hon. Baronet has spoken to-night upon more than one topic. He says that I admit that the imposition of the petty charges which I now propose to repeal was a false step. I think, that when a man has to give up a measure of his own, he had better do it frankly and broadly; and I have acted upon that principle in making my financial statement; but when pressed by the hon. Baronet, I am by no means prepared to admit that the imposition of these duties was a false step. Although I think it would be inexpedient that these charges should be permanently retained, I, at the same time, maintain that they were a necessary instrument for effecting a great financial relief to the country and a great administrative reform. It was upon a sweeping reduction of the tariff that there depended not only the vast impulse given to trade, but also the great diminution which we have been able to make in the Customs establishment; and therefore I am not prepared to say that the imposition of these duties, which we may now find it expedient to part with, was at the time inexpedient. My hon. Friend the Member for Derby
  1008
  (Mr. Bass) asked, "Why not give up all the charges that have been imposed in 1860?" I see no reason whatever why, because a tax was imposed in 1860, it should be given up in 1863. The two charges are not of the same nature. The charge which is called the "penny inward" upon imports entails a great deal of labour, considerable obstruction, and impediment to the progress of business, and the expenditure of a good deal of time; and that being so, it is attended with a considerable additional tax in the shape of the labour which is imposed upon the taxpayer. The charge to which my hon. Friend refers entails no such additional taxation, because a delivery order, like a receipt stamp, costs no more in time when stamped than when it is unstamped—it is precisely the same to the revenue, and is open to no serious objection. It is the intention of the Government to adhere to the declaration which I made in their name with reference to the very moderate surplus which in the present state of the finances of the country we propose to reserve, and to resist, to the best of our power, nil attempts at its diminution by the repeal of any existing tax. The hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham says, that this is not a moment of pressure, and therefore not one at which any addition to the revenue of the country, such as we have proposed, ought to be asked fur. We do not say that the necessities of the country are such as to compel us to go groping and boring here and there to pick up £10,000, £20,000, £50,000, or £100.000; the ground on which we desire that these proposals should stand or fall is that of their justice. If they are just to the community, let us adopt them. If they are unjust, by no means let us import any such charges into our fiscal system, even if the necessity was much greater than it is. The hon. Baronet went on to say that during the last two years there has been a deficiency of £5,000,000. I confess that I am completely puzzled, and quite at a loss to discover his meaning. If I separate from the nominal expenditure of the year 1861–2 a sum of nearly £300,000, which belonged to the previous year, what I find is this—that there was a deficiency in 1861–2, and a surplus in 1862–3, and that the surplus in 1862–3 was larger than the deficiency in 1861–2. The hon. Baronet may say, "That is true; but then there is the charge for fortifications." There was expended upon fortifications during those two financial years a sum of nearly

  1009
  £2,000,000. The hon. Baronet must speak either with regard to form or with regard to substance. If he speaks with regard to form, then in point of form there was no deficiency on account of these £2,000,000. If he speaks with regard to substance, then it is perfectly true that £2,000,000 were spent for fortifications, fur the gradual liquidation of which provision was made by Parliament. [Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY explained that he referred to the years 1860–1 and 1861–2.] Then, I fall back upon my previous statements as to the financial results of a period of four years, to which I regret that I have not the assent of the hon. Baronet. My hon. Friend has raised a particular point with respect to the Indian charge of £3 10 s. per man for the non-effective service, which, he says, the Government have no right to consider as revenue. I entirely differ from him. For a long period of time the Treasury of this country has been paying, year by year, to sustain the non-effective services of India probably three times as much as it as been receiving; and although the absolute and full justice of the charge may not be fully equal to the reimbursement for some short time yet to come, yet upon the whole we are neither reimbursing or nearly reimbursing ourselves for what we have spent. It is a mistake to say that by the system we adopt we are making a prospective demand; on the contrary, we are only offering a very light compensation to the English Exchequer for the charge it has long been paying and enormously in excess of the £60,000 a year previously received. My hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Hubbard) has re-opened, as far as in him lay, the whole question of the income tax, and of his favourite plan, and he has put to me six questions. With the greatest respect for my hon. Friend, I beg to be excused from answering any of these at present. We had a debate on this very subject of the income tax when my hon. Friend made his Motion; we had another debate introduced by the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield; and if we are to have a third debate upon equal and unequal income tax, it will be impossible to mix up a general and abstract discussion of that kind with the practical consideration of details of the financial arrangements for the present year. The hon. Member further demanded that I should give my views as to the future of the income tax. He is quite entitled to make that request, but in complying with
  1010
  it, I am also entitled to limit my explanation to what appears to be safe and prudent; and certainly I, of all men, have had warnings in regard to prophecies with respect to the income tax. In 1853 I made a computation, and submitted it to the House, in the belief that the expenditure of the country was likely to continue at the level at which it then was. In 1857, after the Russian war, it appeared to be the disposition of the country, with regard to its peace establishments, greatly to increase its expenditure. I objected very strongly to that expenditure. I will not say that I stood alone, but I was in a minority; others thought differently, and I had no controlling power. We have now a different scale of expenditure; but having once seen the expenses of the country raised, it is not for me to determine what may be the prospective wants of the country in future years, or to venture on any rash predictions as to what our outlay may be. I see no reason why the level of our expenditure should rise higher; on the contrary, I see great reason to hope that it may fall lower; but beyond that I am not disposed to go. With respect to the question of revenue, what I have said and will venture to repeat is this:—That if the country can meet its expenditure with a sum of from £63,000,000 to £65,000,000 a year, it will be possible at some future and not very distant period to conduct the Government of the country without resorting to an income tax. But the question whether we should or should not resort to an income tax in time of peace is one of the most important that can be conceived. Because, while, on the one hand, the objections to the tax are of the weightiest and most serious nature, on the other hand, the recommendation it possesses in the eyes of many is that it has some tendency towards equalizing the burden of taxation between the higher and lower classes of society. I come next to an hon. Gentleman who has not interposed in the present debate, but has intimated a desire to be informed of the intentions of the Government on a point of general interest. He wishes to know what would be the effect of extending the exemption of £60 through all classes of income, and what means I have of computing the effect of the measures I have proposed to the House. Our means of knowledge are partial, because while we do know the number of persons charged under certain schedules, we do not absolutely know the number of persons charged under certain other sche-

  1011
  dules. The best we can do is to take the proportions as they stand in those schedules which we do know, and extend them to the schedules generally. And as that was the manner in which we proceeded in 1853, when we had to extend the income tax downwards, I have no doubt that though the result will not be mathematically correct, the practical error will not be of serious moment. What we calculate is, that the incomes between £100 and £150, which are to be relieved, amount to £13.500,000, and the relief of those incomes will cost £160,000; the incomes between £150 and £200 are £8.222,000, and the relief will cost £240,000—the House will remember that these incomes do not at present enjoy the benefit of the lower rate, and consequently the apparent proportion of relief is somewhat greater in this class. The sum of these items is £400,000. Then we take the incomes of upwards of £200, with the particular amounts of which I will not trouble the House; but the general result is, that the amount of income relieved by carrying the deduction of £60 upwards to all incomes, however high, will be £17,700,000; and the charge of relieving these higher incomes will be £514,000. This, added to the other sum, will make a total relief of £914,000. I do not know what effect that statement may have on the mind of my hon. Friend, but I confess I think it quite conclusive that the effect of extending the £60 reduction to all classes of income would be a very wanton and purposeless waste of public money. You may nay that it would be very convenient if it were extended to persons with incomes of between £200 and £300; and so it may be; but I am not willing to depart from the traditional limits established in former Acts of Parliament, in which—even in those must favourable to the taxpayers— the sum of £200 is mentioned as that at which everything in the nature of exemption should cease. The hon. Baronet (Sir James Fergusson) has referred to what he thinks centralizing tendencies in the administration of the income tax, and certain circumstances connected with the assessment of last year. The machinery for collection in Scotland is somewhat different from that in England, and I will not now discuss its nature further than to assure the hon. Baronet, that whenever a change of a centralizing tendency is contemplated, it ought to be brought under the full notice of the House; moreover, I think the subject one on which the Government ought
  1012
  not to make any proposal, unless calculated to prove beneficial, and therefore acceptable to the people. The hon. Baronet likewise referred to the question of charities with mixed receipts, where, as I understand, the bodies, having a certain amount of chargeable expenditure, derive their income from three sources:—First, from endowment; secondly, from voluntary subscriptions; and thirdly, from the fees of students. As regards charitable endowments, it is to them that the proposal of the Government refers. As regards fees, these are not the subject of any exemption at present, and they will he dealt with on the same principle as other revenues. As regards voluntary subscriptions, those are entirely outside the proposals of the Government, and will be unaffected by them. The machinery and terms of the law would not give us the means of getting at these voluntary subscriptions, and would require fresh and separate legislation, if such legislation were desirable— which, in my opinion, is far from being the case. Every shilling of these voluntary subscriptions, in the hands of the persons from whom they come, has been already subjected to taxation. The machinery of the income tax enables us, with regard to property, to go to the source, and levy the tax before the income reaches the receiver; it gives us the power, likewise, of calling on persons to declare their receipts from trades, professions, or property held for their own enjoyment. But it is quite clear that neither of these categories would include voluntary subscriptions which are received by persons not for their own benefit. The hon. Member for Hull (Mr. Clay) has referred to the Act relating to passing tolls. This morning I received a statement, which still engages my attention, the general effect of which I understand to be that there is a positive Parliamentary compact between the Government and the local authorities, and that therefore the matter ought to be considered outside general legislation. If such should turn out to be the case—and I am by no means certain, on the primâ facie appearance, that it may not be so—it will by no means tall within the principle of the proposal now made by the Government. I should be sorry to be misunderstood by the hon. Member for Leeds (Mr. Baines). In one portion of his speech he said that the effect of the Government proposal in regard to charitable institutions would be to turn out patients, and to diminish the number of persons now in the enjoyment of incomes

  1013
  from charitable sources. That is not the case, because the Bill contains a double provision for the protection of individuals. Any one now in the enjoyment of receipts and allowances would not be liable at all, but would have the same privilege of claiming the return of income tax as the possessor of an ordinary income beneath the ratable amount. Over and above that, the Bill contains another and very important protection—namely, that where there is a margin of other funds from which the tax can he paid, in no case shall deductions be made from life bénéficiaires and recipients of charity under fixed allowances. With regard to the declaration of the hon. Baronet the Member for the West Riding (Sir Francis Crossley), I wish he could have permitted me to state the case before he declared his opinion, inasmuch as, if I gather from him the real nature of his views, I should be entitled, on the principle on which he seems disposed to proceed, to claim what I very highly value, and what I have often enjoyed—the advantage of his support. My hon. Friend says that the property of charities, which ought to be considered as distributable among individuals in small amounts, ought to be on no worse footing than corresponding property going straight to private individuals. I will undertake to show my hon. Friend, that under the proposal of the Government, the property of charities will not be upon a worse, but upon a better footing as to taxation than the corresponding property of private individuals with incomes which are under £100 a year. The case is a very complicated one, and I own I have had myself considerable difficulty in acquiring the requisite knowledge with respect to it. I will, however, make a full statement on the subject on Monday; and I can assure hon. Members that the desire of the Government is, that whatever course the House may take in the matter should be taken with its eyes open. It is upon grounds of the strictest justice that we wish to make the proposals which we have to submit to its notice; and if we establish our propositions upon these grounds, the House will adopt them; while if we do not, it will be for hon. Members to reject them as not entitled to their sanction.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, that though quite agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman in the opinion that it was undesirable to attempt to enter upon a discussion of this question at the present mo-
  1014
  ment, he was nevertheless anxious to point out the position in which they stood with regard to it. He thought it desirable that some preliminary explanation should be made with regard to the provisions of the Bill, in order that the country might be better able to understand a complicated proposal, and that the Members of the House might be in a position to discuss them with advantage on Monday next. Certain questions had been put, the answers to which seemed to imply that particular charities would not be affected in the manner in which the hon. Gentlemen who put the questions supposed. Now, they had got the Bill on the table; but, as far as he could understand the clauses of it, there was no provision to protect the charities alluded to. He referred to such a case as the Patriotic Fund. There were questions in which public opinion was forming itself really in ignorance of what the proposal of the Government was. His hon. and gallant Friend behind him (Sir James Fergusson) had put a question—Supposing you have a mixed revenue, partly arising from endowments, and partly from voluntary subscriptions, on which do you propose to lay the tax? The answer was, "We propose to lay it on the revenue from endowments, and not on the revenue from voluntary subscriptions." But take the case of the Lancashire Distress Fund, where a large voluntary subscription was raised; there being more than could be expended at once, with a view to economy and profit a portion of it was put into the funds for a short time to be drawn out by degrees; a dividend was paid upon it, and upon those dividends he supposed the tax was to be deducted. Now, were these contributions to be treated as voluntary contributions (which they really were), and to be exempted from the tax, or were they not to be exempt from the tax? It would certainly he a matter of convenience if they knew exactly what was the nature of the proposal of the Government, and in what respect the Government proposed to modify the Bill, so that they might be prepared for the discussion on Monday night.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the principle on which the Bill proceeded was to lay a tax on the great mass of endowments. The word "endowments" in its generally accepted sense meant those investments which were made with a view to a permanent object, while those investments to which his hon. Friend referred were of a temporary

  1015
  and partial character, made to meet a great calamity, to the progress of which the public bounty could not be held to adapt itself. Now, he maintained it to be entirely in conformity with the proposal of the Government that they should introduce a provision for the purpose of distinguishing such cases from others; but he had not, at the same time, thought it wise to complicate the Bill by introducing into it a number of minute reservations until after its principle had been discussed, and he should then hold himself entirely free to proceed according to the general view of the expediency of the case.
  LORD ROBERT CECILasked when the details of such reservations would be laid before the House?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he should take care that ample notice was given on the subject.
  MR. WALPOLE: The financial statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer are usually so clear that it is very easy to understand them; but I venture to say that hardly any hon. Member understands what is the exact nature of the right hon. Gentleman's proposal with regard to charities. I understood my right hon. Friend to argue that the tax which would fall on St. Bartholomew's Hospital, with an income of £36,000 a year, would, according to his proposal, be about £700 or £800 a year; but that can hardly be accurate, inasmuch as, according to the ordinary computation of the tax, it would amount to £1,000 per annum. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: The income tax is at present paid by the Hospital to the amount of £201 a year.] But, be that as it may, my right hon. Friend has given no explanation of that important part of his scheme which was so forcibly referred to by the hon. Member for Leeds. Are you to treat the recipients of charities as separate individuals, or to look upon the trustees as individuals receiving an amount of income on which, as individuals, they will have to pay the tax? That is a very grave question; because my right hon. Friend will bear in mind that every principle we have ever laid down in regard to charitable property has addressed itself to that very distinction. I will explain myself by a simple case. Everybody knows that the legacy duty is applicable to charities when property is given to charities generally, but not if it is given to individual recipients. Thus, let me suppose that I devise the whole residue of my property to trustees to be dis-
  1016
  posed of for charitable purposes—that residue will pay 10 per cent duty; but if I devise the whole of it to trustees on condition that they should give a sum not exceeding £15 to each recipient of the charity, it will be exempt from duty. The reason of the distinction is this. The Courts consider, that inasmuch as no duty is payable on any sum under £20, then if you give your residue to trustees for charitable objects, none of the recipients taking as much as £20, not a shilling of tax ought to be paid upon that bequest. But if you give it in such a manner that there is no charity impressed upon it until it gets into the hands of the recipients, then the duty is payable. I do not find that my right hon. Friend has taken that ground of distinction, which, in my opinion, ought to be adopted with regard to the taxation of charitable property. If you deal with charitable property where people are receiving large sums which they may dispose of generally for charitable purpose, without affecting retrospectively particular objects of the charity who have hitherto been entitled to particular sums without deduction, I could understand—upon the principle that every property ought to contribute its fair share to the expenses of the State—that something ought to be taken out of the aggregate fund. But when once you split up the property into small sums, and bring it under the operation of this tax, it seems to me to be utterly inconsistent with your own proposal to extend the exemption to people of £200 a year, since, in the case of those charities, you are taking away the privilege of exemption from those who are receiving very much less than £200. I do not wish to go into this question, and I should not have said so much upon it, unless it had appeared to me absolutely essential that the Government should favour us with a more distinct view of the nature of the proposition we shall have to consider when we go into Committee. If my right hon. Friend would rather postpone the discussion until Monday, I will say no more; but if he is prepared to make an explanatory statement to clear up these points, so that the House and those who are affected by the tax may know its operation, he could easily take advantage of the forms of the House to do so. I do not wish, however, to press him to make such a statement if he would rather do it on a future day, but I do press upon him that

  1017
  before we consider the Bill in Committee, he will let us understand the exact nature of his proposition.
  MR. BAGWELLwould warn the Government that the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to charities was likely to receive very considerable opposition from the Irish Members. The House was aware that the principal charities in Ireland were Roman Catholic charities, and that the Roman Catholic Church and its charities were maintained by voluntary contributions. The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated the other night, that the losses sustained by the people of Ireland from the bad harvests of the last three years amounted to £36,000,000. It appeared that the only proposal which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to make for the relief of Ireland was to tax her charities. He was certain that the Government would increase their existing unpopularity in Ireland by such a proposition. If such a thing were done in Ireland, it would be considered on this side of the water as a bull; but, as it was proposed in England, he supposed it would be considered as an act of "justice to Ireland."
  MR. HENLEY: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us with great candour that this is a very intricate subject. I think he even went the length of saying that he himself had some difficulty in making himself understand it. I venture to say that after this discussion no one except a member of the Government will get up and say that even by the light of this Bill they understand, in the least degree, what the House will be called upon to vote on Monday. If this subject is intricate, it cannot be denied that it is also of great interest. I have no notion whether, and to what degree, this proposition is to be retrospective or prospective. I made a vain endeavour to gain something from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I understood him to soy, in answer to the hon. Member for Leeds, that it is not to be retrospective. But how does it apply to a bed in a hospial? Is a man now in a sick bed in a hospital to lose no benefit, and is a man who comes in afterwards to come under the tax? The right hon. Gentleman ought to put his proposition into print, and give time to the House and the country to understand exactly what it is we are called upon to vote. What has happened to night? He tells the hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire (Sir F. Crossley), "Yon quite
  1018
  misunderstand me; upon your principle you ought to support me." That certainly is a very odd state of things. We have the Bill to look at, and we try to form the best opinion we can upon it; but it is like looking into a thick hedge—no man can get his eyes through it, much less his head and body. The right hon. Gentleman says he merely intends to deal with endowments, and then he says he should have no objection, in case a little surplus were invested, to consider whether that ought not to be let off. How is it to be told, when a charity invests £500, whether they intend it to be permanent or not? Take alms-people who have £10 a year apiece coming out of an endowed estate of £110 a year. Is each of those unfortunate people to have his income tax deducted, while the man at £90 a year is to go scot-free? I do not understand how all this is to work. All I hope is that we shall have more time, and that the right hon. Gentleman will not attempt to force this matter through without giving not only this House, but also all the charities in the country, an opportunity of knowing what he wishes to impose upon charities. It is the first time I have heard that it is just to rob the poor. We have had considerable pressure in this country since the income tax was first imposed sixty years ago, and during that period—which some of us can recollect—that view of justice has never been taken until it came into the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. His sense of justice is to take something from the poor, the lame, the halt, and the blind. That is a new system of justice—a new code of morality, which has not been arrived at in a moment, and I trust the right hon. Gentleman will give us full time to digest his new code.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that when he stated that his proposal would make a difference of from £700 to £800 to St. Bartholomew's Hospital, he did not profess to speak within a £100 a year. When he said the question was one of great intricacy, he did not advert to the proposal of the Government, which was quite intelligible and not by any means intricate, but to the operation of the present law. The Government had made what appeared to him to be a most intelligible proposal; but if any hon. Member would put any question before the discussion came on, he would state to the best of his ability what would be the operation of the proposal in any given case.
  LORD LOVAINEsaid, that the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not tally with that of the Governors of St. Bartholomew's Hospital. The cost of a bed at the hospital was stated at £25 per annum. The fact was, that by the bed of a hospital was meant a room occupied not by one person, but by a succession of patients in the course of a year. He agreed with his right hon. Friends, that the House required all the light that could possibly be shown on the operation and effect of the proposed tax.
  SIR MINTO FARQUHARsaid, that the question was one of the utmost importance and interest. There was scarcely a part of the country where endowed charities did not exist, and the trustees were most anxious to know exactly how the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would affect them. It was necessary that full time and opportunity should be given for the consideration of this subject. He trusted that the House would have full time allowed it for considering the question.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, that he thought the original statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-night was one of the most alarming and perplexing that he had ever heard, for the right hon. Gentleman made the declaration that on Monday he would deliver to them a most complicated, most intricate, and very long statement upon the subject of this proposal. That he (Lord John Manners) thought a most alarming statement—for this simple reason, that they were at the moment to be asked to vote upon the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which he had led them clearly to understand was so elaborate and complicated that he himself could hardly master the principles and the details. Upon that statement many hon. Members had expressed their opinion; and had asked, not unnaturally, that neither the House nor the country should be called on at the moment to pronounce a deliberate opinion upon a proposal which, upon the face of it, was unusual, novel, and unprecedented. But after these comments had been made on both sides of the House, the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained—and what was his explanation? Why, that all those epithets which they had thought he applied to the statement to be made on Monday, he meant to apply only to the existing law. He told them that the House would hardly be able to compre-
  1020
  hend on Monday what were the principles and practice of the existing law. But surely the House was not in that state of benighted ignorance of the state of the law which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to suppose. They were perfectly conversant with the existing law, and they were also perfectly content with it. They did not want to hear a long statement as to what the law was; but what the House and the country did want to know was, what were the principles on which it was proposed to interfere with the existing law, and what were the provisions by which he proposed to carry his novel principles into practice. He (Lord John Manners) had never been more astonished than when he heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer give his explanation. On Monday, he had no doubt, that they would have a most interesting and eloquent exposition of the very complicated proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which affected deeply the interests of a very large class of poor and suffering people; but he thought that after such a statement there ought to be conceded to the House this, that they should not be asked to come precipitately to a decision on a proposal which then only for the first time be practically before it.
  SIR JAMES FERGUSSONexplained, that the question he had asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, why the 44th section of the Act of last year was not proposed to be repealed in the Act of the present year as well as the 42nd and 43rd sections?
  LORD HARRY VANEalso hoped that this question as to charities would not be further urged upon the House until an opportunity had been given hon. Members to ascertain the general feeling of the country on the scheme. He thought the subject would require a very detailed statement from the right hon. Gentleman to remove the unfavourable impression which generally prevailed with regard to the proposal. Representations had been made to him from various quarters, proving that there was a strong feeling adverse to the measure. It certainly was believed that the right hon. Gentleman had adopted a retrograde policy in proposing such a measure, and it seemed to him scarcely wise to raise so large a question when the result was to be so small. If the right hon. Gentleman could establish the points he had brought forward—if he could prove that great benefit would arise to the re-

  1021
  venue, and that the recipients of charity would not be the sufferers which the public anticipated, then he would make good his case; but he (Lord H. Vane) thought the right hon. Gentleman would be acting very unwisely in attempting to force this measure too hurriedly upon the country.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he did not rise to enter into any discussion of the details of the proposed tax, or of the Bill before them; but he wished to make a suggestion in consequence of the nature of the discussion which had taken place. He thought that it must have become quite clear to the right hon. Gentleman that this proposal to tax charities was regarded with very great anxiety by hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House; and further, the right hon. Gentleman had himself very candidly admitted that the proposal was of a somewhat complicated and difficult nature. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: No. not the proposal, but the present law.] He feared that the law would not be simplified by the addition that the right hon. Gentleman proposed to make to it. This was clear, that for the sake of the country at large, and especially of those most interested in the subject, they should clearly understand what was the course which would be taken by the Government, and what was the nature of the proposition. He would therefore suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should take until to-morrow to consider what course he would think it right to pursue, so as not to involve the House in any difficulty, and that he should state to-morrow what course he would take on Monday. The course which he (Sir John Pakington) would suggest was, that on Monday, with the Speaker in the chair, the Chancellor of the Exchequer should make a clear statement of the whole of his proposition, and that then he should allow a reasonable time before they were called upon to come to a vote upon that proposition. Without presuming to press this particular suggestion, he would submit that, at all events, it would be convenient for the right hon. Gentleman to announce to-morrow what course he would take on Monday.
  MR. MALINSthought that it must be admitted that the proposal to take 3 per cent from every charity in the country was certainly not a light one. St. Bartholomew's Hospital was the greatest hospital in the country; but still there were a great many more
  1022
  similar institutions. The right hon. Gentleman said that the measure would take away about £700 from St. Bartholomew's Hospital, and that sum would support forty in-patients if they remained in the establishment the whole year. But experience showed that they did not remain there more than a month or five weeks, and therefore the effect would be that the number of in-patients who would be affected was about 400. Add to St. Bartholomew's the eight or ten other great hospitals, and they would have no fewer than 3,000 or 4,000 poor patients excluded from the London hospitals alone by the effect of this taxation. What was the amount of revenue which it was supposed would be derived from this novel principle, which was repugnant to the feeling of the whole country, and which the right hon. Gentleman must have great difficulty in carrying into operation? He (Mr. Malins) could not conceive anything more unpopular than to diminish the amount of the charitable funds of the country; and he would suggest, not in an adverse spirit—for he cordially supported the Budget, though he regretted that on this, as on other occasions, the propositions were disfigured by some deformities—that this subject should be further considered. The two blots upon the present Budget were the tax upon clubs, by which, for the sake of getting some £2,000 a year, the right hon. Gentleman had broached a most unpopular principle, and the tax upon charities. The right hon. Gentleman had done that which neither Pitt nor Peel had ventured to do; and had violated the sacred principle that the property of charities should be kept intact. He would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should between that time and Monday turn over in his mind the advantages and the disadvantages of his proposition, and consider if it would not be the wisest and most graceful thing for him to come down to-morrow, and say that he would abandon this part of his financial scheme.
  MR. KINNAIRDentirely concurred with what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley). This was a tax on the very spirit which, of all things, they ought to encourage in the country, and he thought it would be well if his right hon. Friend gave a statement of what he intended to do, and then afforded the House time to consider it.
  MR. CARDWELLmust say he had, heard with considerable regret the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) speak of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as if he for the first time had introduced the principle of robbing the poor. That was one of the inconveniences of the present discussion; for, while his right hon. Friend had all along felt that the real debate on the merits of the question, with every consideration of justice and argument, should be reserved till Monday, many objections on one side were stated and insisted on. He was surprised to find this charge made against his right hon. Friend; for he thought, even in the discussion of this question, even if it were not already a matter of history, it could easily be proved that of all the men who had managed the financial or commercial affairs of this country there had been few who had conferred upon the poor such great and important advantages as those they had received from the hand of his right hon. Friend. He understood it to be agreed that they should not discuss the question, in which it was said by so many Members that the feelings of the community out-of-doors were so greatly interested, in a piecemeal or partial manner, but after a full statement of its principle, with all the facts and details, by his right hon. Friend; but the question was raised whether that course of proceeding was the right and proper one. The plan appeared to the Government to be simple, clear, and just; the difficulty and complication were believed by the Government to rest not in the principle of his right hon. Friend, but in the present cumbrous and minute operation of the law. That would be shown to the House on Monday. Surely, then, it was right that they should reserve themselves for the discussion when the House was in Committee; when after hearing the proposal, statements, and arguments of his right hon. Friend, full opportunity would be afforded of forming any judgment which to the general body of the House should appear expedient and right. What he asked then was, that the House would now permit the Bill which contained the general legislation for the year to be read a second time, on the understanding that on Monday in Committee this clause of exception might be dealt with as the House in its wisdom should determine.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read 2°, and committed for Monday next.

STOCK CERTIFICATES TO BEARER BILL [BILL 76.]—COMMITTEE.
Order of the Day for the House to go into Committee read.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, in moving that the House do now go into a Committee on the said Bill, said, that on a former occasion he had promised to give an explanation of this Bill, but he would not in giving it detain the House at any unusual length. The Bill, however, was one of importance, and it was regarded with great interest out of doors, and therefore it was right that he should state its object more distinctly than he had yet been enabled to do. The public debt of this country was a debt the machinery of which was somewhat peculiar; it was an admirable machinery for its own purpose, and was worked, upon the whole, with the greatest skill, fidelity, and efficiency by the Bank of England as to the great bulk of the debt, and by the Bank of Ireland as to that portion of it relating to Ireland. It was not intended by this Bill that this system should be altered; neither, again, did the Government propose by the Bill that the present arrangements of the money market should be fundamentally or extensively changed. He believed, that although this country was so adverse to centralization as a rule, the London money market was by far the most perfect and beautiful example of centralization in the whole world. The fact was this—that no man in England or Scotland who had a banker could pay £10 to his account, or could take £10 from it, without acting the next morning upon the foreign exchanges, though, of course, in an infinitesimal degree. To render the effect perceptible, instead of £10 the amount must be £100,000 or £1,000,000; but the fact was. that no addition to, or withdrawal from, the banking fund could be made in any part of the country without its being immediately represented in the London market by a fresh accession or withdrawal, and thus affecting the exchanges. It was not from want of belief in this system, or from thinking that for ordinary purposes the management of the national debt by the system of registered stock was not perfectly adequate, or even the best for its purpose that could be devised, that he made his present proposition. It was, however, perfectly consistent with what he had just stated as to the general merit and efficiency of the system of registration of the national debt, to hold

1025
that for certain purposes it was capable of being improved. In the first place, it was obvious that it did not offer the greatest possible degree of facility to a very important class of holders of stock, those who held for the purposes of commerce, with a view to borrow upon their stock in order to carry on their business and to fulfil their engagements as occasion might suggest. At present, a person who desired to perform an operation of this kind must undergo the expense of a double transfer. Suppose he had £20,000 stock which he wished to borrow on; he could not make that an available security without transferring the stock; and, if he did not execute a power of attorney, he must appear personally, attended by his broker, who, however excellent a man he might be, did not undertake that function for nothing. When the loan had fulfilled its purpose, the stock must be re-transferred to him, and at a new expense. It sometimes happened that it was desired that this double transfer should occur within the limit of a single day; but the Bank of England had adapted a rule— which he had no doubt was recommended by convenience and regard for the efficient performance of its functions—that the same stock could not be transferred twice in a single day. This Bill proposed to establish perfect freedom in borrowing upon stock— that there should be no limit or restriction whatever, but the stock represented by a certificate payable to bearer should be transferred from hand to hand with the same facility as a bank note. Of course, it would not represent a precise and uniform sum, but still up to a certain point stock was money; and if this measure should give a character of easy circulation to stock, it would be of great convenience, for the owner could use it for borrowing purposes; and by giving increased convenience and facility there would be caused a higher appreciation of the stock in the market, and thus it would improve the value of the public credit, which was no unimportant part of the scheme which he proposed. Besides the borrowers on stock for commercial purposes, they might likewise look to the country and foreign holders of stock; among whom an increased demand might reasonably be expected under the operation of this Bill. At present, under the system of registration of stock at the Bank of England the dealing in stock, so far as he could learn, was a thing almost unknown in the provincial markets—that there were no cases he would not presume to say,
1026
but they were certainly very rare, and it was the opinion of intelligent gentlemen conconducting large transactions in these markets, that the dealings in stock might be beneficially and very much extended in the country if it were not for the restrictions and the charges for employing intermediate agents in London only. In the country, gentlemen had no means of having stock conveyed to them on the spot, even though there was in the locality a branch of the Bank of England. There were wheels within wheels in this matter, and undoubtedly the Bill would affect the business of brokers and bankers. With respect to bankers and brokers, this Bill was, to some extent, a decentralizing measure; but whilst it had been received with general approval in London, he had received no remonstrance from those whose private interests might be supposed to be affected by it. The main provision of the Bill was this—it was proposed to give to the holder of stock the option of changing his registered stock into certificates to bearer, with interest payable by coupons. It was a matter for consideration as to how long the certificates should run. That question would be decided upon the best advice. At present, the opinion was, that it should not be for less than, or longer than, ten years. It must be understood that they could not transfer by those certificates fractional sums, and therefore a person having registered stock to the amount of £105 6s.8d., could not convert the £5 6s. 8d.; he could have a certificate for the round £100, and must deal with £5 6s. 8d. as he pleased. The certificates would come down as low as £50 capital, bearing a yearly interest of 30 s., payable half-yearly. The benefits of the Bill lay mostly on the surface—facility of circulation, universality of holding, and the removal of restraints upon money dealings. With regard to the possible dangers and inconveniences attending the certificates, that was a matter for serious consideration. The first danger which would be presented to the minds of hon. Gentle men approaching the subject for the first time, was that of forgery. The question was, whether it was likely that forgery would be extensively, or commonly, or even rarely practised. Of course, the best means would be adopted to prevent such a contingency, but in this matter they had the guidance of experience. In respect to the coupons, the whole of the interest on railway debentures, amounting to about

1027
£100,000,000, was paid by coupons, and they were never forged. But the debentures themselves, except in certain cases in Scotland, were not transferable from hand to hand, as these certificates would be. They had also the experience of foreign countries with respect to their national debts. In France he had been assured on the highest authority, where thirty or forty millions were held on the system of certificates payable to bearer, forgery was almost, if not entirely, unknown. The six-monthly presentation of the coupons aided the security against forgery. Another difficulty which might present itself to the minds of hon. Gentlemen was the case of fraud among joint holders of these securities. There were only, in the main, two classes of joint owners—private firms and commercial incorporations. As to the first, it would be perfectly unnecessary, if not irrational, to attempt by law to secure partner against partner; that was no business of Parliament, but a matter entirely for themselves. But there was another description of proprietary, that was in the case of trustees —and the amount of trust property held in this country was enormous—a vast portion of it was invested in the public securities, and the amount was constantly increasing; and he thought it would be wrong were Parliament, in the case of trustees who had no such close individual relationship as the partners in a mercantile firm, to leave open any door for fraud. They therefore proposed, with respect to this class of proprietors, to do two things. First, they introduced a disability clause, by which trustees were disabled from holding these certificates to bearer, and it was made a breach of trust to do so. It would naturally suggest itself to any rational mind that there would be great objection and difficulty in a trustee holding such securities. They proposed, as a further security, that notice of this—the provision of this section as to the disability of trustees— should be printed on every certificate, so that it could hardly fail to meet the eye of any person taking the certificate into his hand. He would next touch on one or two minor points. In the Bill they proposed that the Bank should at once provide means to effect this conversion in the case of the Consols and New Three per Cents, the stock most generally dealt in; but they reserved to themselves the power of extending this provision to other descriptions of stock. The hon. Member for
1028
Greenwich (Mr. Alderman Salomons) had expressed a great desire that the provision should be extended to the Reduced Three per Cents, and he did not see how they could very well resist that request, and they would not be justified in withholding the same facilities in the case of other stock which did or might hereafter exist to any considerable amount. With regard to the probable extent of the conversion that would take place under the Bill, it was difficult to form an opinion. He was convinced that the great bulk of stock in this country and in Ireland would always continue to be held tinder the registered form—not only the trust stock which must be held in that form, but the vast proportion of miscellaneous stock; but the operation of the Bill would be very satisfactory if only a small portion, say 2 or 3 per cent, was converted. There was another point he desired to mention—namely, the nominal certificates. The House was aware that Exchequer Bills were drawn payable to blank or bearer, and any possessor of an Exchequer Bill might, if he thought fit, by inserting his name, make it secure against those who might abstract it. The Government had not thought it right to withhold the same advantage from the holders of the stock certificate to bearer. Many holders of these certificates, while desiring to avail themselves of the facilities afforded by the payment of interest on coupons, might likewise desire to prevent these instruments, if abstracted, from being paid away almost like money. It was therefore proposed to draw them so as to allow the holder to insert his own name if he thought fit. If, however, he did so, he must be prepared to part with some of the facilities which he now enjoyed. It was not possible to combine the highest degree of facility with the highest degree of security. It would therefore be necessary to require, where the certificate had been made nominal, that it should altogether part with the facilities of transfer which attached to the certificate to bearer. It would be said, "Why not permit the nominal certificate to be transferred by endorsement?" Primâ facie that was desirable, but the practical difficulties which such a system would entail were so great that the Bank would hardly be prepared to cope with them. The Bank would be responsible for the investigation of the signatures of all persons who by endorsement might have become proprietors. The House would understand, therefore, why it had been felt necessary

1029
to require, that when the certificate became nominal, it should revert, practically, to the condition of registered stock, which could not be transferred except on going through the operation of regular registry and transfer. Then came the question of the probable effect of the change on the revenue of the country. The revenue would lose in a certain way. It was quite possible, though he hoped such would not be the case, that the measure would entail additional trouble and charge on the Bank; and if that were so, the Bank would be entitled to claim at their hands additional remuneration, because they had a positive covenant with the Bank which fixed the remuneration according to the amount of the National Debt, but which proceeded all along on the supposition that the present system of registry continued. The change would entail the necessity of keeping new books, of creating a new material for the certificates; it would also entail considerable labour in preparing and issuing the certificates, and considerable changes in the payment of the dividends. Whether this would cause increased trouble, he would not venture to say. On the other hand, the Bank would have less trouble with regard to transfers, and it would be a matter for consideration and examination as to what arrangement should be made in respect of the expense of the management of the National Debt. Then there were other ways in which the Bill would have a bearing adverse to the revenue. It would tend to diminish the number of powers of attorney, and therefore deprive the revenue of some portion of the stamp duty. It was plain, also, that so far as the Bill tended to encourage the holding of stock in foreign countries, it would deprive the revenue of a certain portion of the probate duty. At present a large portion of stock held by foreigners became practically liable to the probate duty. It was also plain on the passing of this Bill, it would have a tendency to restrain the use of Exchequer Bills, as the certificates would be preferred, by those who looked to a permanent investment, to the Exchequer Bills, that were liable to vary from six months to six months. In proportion to the issue of these certificates there would be additional labour, as large sums would be broken into smaller ones, and the forms would be repeated and multiplied; and partly on the ground of expense to the public, and partly on the ground of the great advantage and saving of expense to those who became
1030
holders of the certificates, the Government thought it perfectly right to take such measures as should bear the State harmless, its creditors, it was a fair and equitable When the State improved the property of demand that it should not be placed at a positive loss by the new machinery used for effecting that purpose. On that ground the Government proposed the schedule of fees, which would be found on the last page of the Bill. The Government were empowered to fix a fee of so much per cent, limiting it to a maximum of one quarter percent, which he thought was not an unreasonable limit. The next clause in the schedule was intended to prevent unnecessary labour in the multiplication of these certificates. They authorized the Bank to make a certain very moderate charge in cases where they were taken out on a large scale for very small amounts. A man might divide £20,000 into 400 certificates, upon each of which a separate dividend would be payable half-yearly, in lieu of a single dividend on the entire sum; and they therefore thought it desirable to make a small charge on the original certificates, when the number issued exceeded in a certain proportion the amount of stock. They also gave a power to charge a fee on the conversion of a nominal certificate to a certificate to bearer, not exceeding half the fees charged on the issue of a new certificate. They could not afford to convert these nominal certificates to certificates to bearer for nothing; if they did, these conversions would be constantly made. Again, where persons who had bought certificates to bearer wished to re-convert them into registered stock, power was taken to charge, not a percentage, but a simple fee of 5s. Such were the main provisions of the Bill, and there was only one other point to which he desired to call attention. The Bill, as it stood, extended to England only; and as we were going to have the National Debt represented in a document which should have no relation to any particular place, but which was meant to circulate uniformly over the world, he owned his preference for having the certificates to bearer issued at the Bank of England alone. But a great desire had been expressed by influential persons for the issue of certificates in Ireland also; and since it had been represented to him that the certificates would be very popular in that country, he had no hesitation in saying—what he had already stated to

1031
the Members for Dublin—that he would carefully examine the working of a practical scheme for extending the Bill to Ireland; and that unless he should find himself encountered by serious difficulties, he should at a future stage propose to adapt the provisions of the measure so as to permit the issue of similar certificates in Ireland to those which, were intended for England. He should be very ready to give any further explanations that might he required in Committee.
MR. HUNTthanked the Chancellor of the Exchequer for his able and lucid statement, which was certainly much needed, if, as he believed, very few Members had read the clauses of the Bill. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman in thinking that great advantage would be derived from the operation of the measure. The risk of forgery would, he thought, be very slight; but a considerable amount of fraud might arise in the case of joint holders, and the House could not be too careful in its precautions for the prevention of improper dealing with trust funds. Upon this point, indeed, his apprehensions were so great, that he should be glad if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would consent to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. It was true that the 4th clause provided that no trustee should apply for or hold certificates of title, unless the power was expressly given in the trust deed; but that would be only what might be termed a "hobgoblin clause," because the same clause provided that the Bank of England should not be bound to inquire whether a person applying for a certificate was or was not a trustee, nor be liable to any consequences, nor was the certificate, if granted, invalid. Breaches of trust were committed every day by investments in railway shares and other securities of that kind, and he was afraid that under the Bill, as it stood, the objects of trusts would not be sufficiently protected. In the case of a trust consisting of three or four persons only, one of them could hold the certificates to bearer, and consequently the whole power of dealing with the stock would be placed in that individual. Again, where all the joint holders but one had died, the survivor, on proving the death of the others, would he entitled under the Bill to have the certificates in his own name. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had referred to the experience of the Bank of France; but we had no means of knowing whether in France trust monies were invested in
1032
public stocks to the same extent as in this country.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERexplained, that he had referred to the experience of the Bank of France with respect to forgery, not with respect to fraud.
MR. HUNTwished to put another case. If a man took out stock certificates, he might dispose of them on his death bed. He did not suppose that legacy duty would apply to such a case; and he thought that was a point to be guarded against. When the Bill was being considered in Committee, great care must be taken to guard against frauds as regarded trust funds.
MR. MALINSexpressed his unqualified approbation of the Bill, which, in his opinion, would not give rise to those dangers which his hon. Friend, who had just addressed the House, seemed to apprehend. He would suggest whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer might not effect another improvement in regard to stock. He thought that a great deal of trouble and annoyance with respect to dividends might be saved, if the same rule were adopted at the Bank of England with regard to dividend warrants that was in practice with the railway companies—namely, that they should by sent by post to the persons entitled to them. At present a man could only receive his dividends by applying personally at the Bank for them, or by giving a power of attorney; whereas if a man held railway stuck, his bankers could receive the dividends for him. He thought the right hon. Gentleman, in concert with his hon. Friend the Member for Bridport (Mr. K. D. Hodgson), the Governor of the Bank of England, might adopt a system by which the person entitled to dividends at the Bank might, on putting his name down in a book at that establishment, have his warrants sent to him.
MR. KIRKMAN D. HODGSONsaid, that the Bank of England had been in communication with the Bank of France, and they had been assured that the amount of frauds in France, to which the hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Hunt) had referred, was so small as to be scarcely appreciable. He thought it clear that there would be no greater chance of frauds by trustees after this Bill passed than there was at the present moment. With regard to the suggestion of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins), there were many indirect modes of getting what he wanted. He could assure his hon. and learned Friend, that if

1033
he opened an account at the Bank of England, they would be happy to receive from him a power of attorney, and to do his business. In his opinion, the Bill was calculated to do good by facilitating dealings in the public stocks of the country. At the present time there was in the minds of many persons a great objection to holding stock, because there was no positive representative of its value which they could keep in their own hands. They were informed that there was something in the books of the Bank which entitled them to money; but under this Bill they would he able to keep in their own possession an actual title to that money. He thought this would be a great inducement to foreigners to invest in the English funds There were now upwards of £18,000,000 invested in the funds of our National Debt by foreigners resident abroad, and there could be very little doubt that the amount would be largely increased when the system which the Bill would establish became known in other countries. The Bill would also be an inducement to persons of small capital in distant parts of England and in Ireland to invest in the public funds. In this way the measure would have the effect of increasing the interest of the population in the welfare of the country, for nothing was a greater inducement to persons to feel a strong interest in the prosperity of a country than the fact that they had property invested in its funds.
Motion agreed to.
Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 (Restriction as to Trustees taking Certificates of Title).
MR. HUNTsaid, that the Bill provided that trustees who were guilty of breach of trust should be "punishable accordingly." He wished to know what was intended to be the effect of these words.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that trustees were liable to make good whatever breaches of trust they might he guilty of. In certain cases also a breach of trust was punishable by indictment as a criminal offence, and it was to that class of cases the words alluded to by the hon. Member applied.
Clause agreed to.
Remaining Clauses, with Amendments, agreed to.
House resumed.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Monday next, and to be printed [Bill 100.]

TELEGRAPHS BILL— [BILL 78.]

  THIRD READING.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—(Mr. Milner Gibson.)
  LORD ALFRED CHURCHILL LORD ALFRED CHURCHILL moved an Amendment, that the Bill be read a third time that day six months. He did so upon the ground that the House had confined themselves to the discussion of the details only, and had not discussed the principle of the measure. He believed this Bill was founded upon the United Kingdom Telegraph Companies Act, and because it was so similar to that Act he had nut attempted to raise any discussion upon the principle of this Bill; but he was sorry to find that during its passage through the House it had been so mutilated that it would restrict the operations of the Company—which was intended to establish cheap, or people's telegraphs, as they might be called, throughout the country—with which he was connected, and it would virtually affirm the monopoly obtained by the other telegraph companies. He believed the Amendments made in this Bill had been promoted by the agents of the other companies, who had stated that the provisions of the United Kingdom Telegraph Companies Act enabled the directors to pass through drawing-rooms, and over property of the most private kind, in the hope of defeating the operations of the company. Their Act did not enable them to go over private property, but to pass along public roads, and for doing that the company had to pay their share of the highway and poor rates The wires so much complained of by the hon. Member for Westminster (Sir John Shelley) were erected by the company presided over by the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. J. C. Ewart), and the United Kingdom Telegraph Company had not interfered with the hon. Baronet's property at Preston. The provisions of the Bill before the House would virtually repeal the provisions of the United Kingdom Telegraph Companies Act, which was passed only last year, after being fully examined by a Committee of each House of Parliament and opposed by

  1035
  the other companies. This measure was in a very crude and imperfect state, and before leaving that House it ought to be amended. He would instance the 10th clause, which enacted that no telegraph line should pass within ten yards of a dwelling-house, which might be construed to mean a small country lodge or a factory. He thought the law in reference to telegraph lines should be assimilated in the same way as the law in regard to railways, and that the whole of the Acts of telegraph companies should be consolidated by consideration in reference to a Committee of the Whole House. Instead of passing the Bill, the Government should bring in another, placing telegraphs under the control of the Board of Trade.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHseconded the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
  Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  MR. F. S. POWELLsaid, that the advice tendered by the noble Lord, that the House should obey the dictates of a Committee upstairs, was entirely in keeping with what were said to be the tactics of the telegraph companies upstairs. As for the companies being earwigged, as the phrase was, by Members of Parliament, he certainly thought that the earwigging, if there had been any, was quite the other way. If the Bill were imperfect, it was competent to the noble Lord to move any Amendments he thought necessary; but that was no reason why the Bill should not now be read a third time; and he felt sure that the House would not regret the labour it had spent upon it.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHsaid, he was connected with no company, cheap or dear, but he was in favour of cheap companies rather than dear, because he thought they were favourable to commerce. The cheap companies, he thought, would bring down the prices of dear ones. He should vote for the noble Lord's Motion if he went into the lobby.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONbelieved, that while various useful Amendments had been introduced relating to procedure, the principle of the Bill remained unchanged. That principle was to afford protection against private property being interfered with without the consent of the owner, and
  1036
  without compensation; but whatever rights were given were given to all companies, and whatever restrictions were imposed were imposed on all companies, whether old or new. He could not see how the Bill could be said to favour monopoly, and he hoped the noble Lord would not insist upon a division.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read 3°, and passed.

NAVAL MEDICAL SUPPLEMENTAL FUND SOCIETY WINDING-UP ACT (1861) AMENDMENT BILL— [BILL 93.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read a second time.—(Sir George Grey.)
  MR. LYGONsaid, he had the honour of serving on the Select Committee to which the Act was referred, which this Bill proposed to amend, and he thought it due to the House that some explanation should be given of the necessity for amendment.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, there was no Member of the Government present who could explain it.
  LORD ROBERT CECILsaid, that the second reading of a Bill should not be moved in the absence of the Member of the Government who had charge of it, as the Government would be open to the obvious interpretation that they took the chance of getting a Bill through without opposition.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that notice of opposition was required; and if notice had been given, he should not have moved the second reading: but he had no objection to adjourn the debate.
  MR. LYGONsaid, that the title of the Bill indicated that it was a matter of some complexity.
  Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.

BOROUGH RESIDENCE UNIFORM MEASUREMENT BILL.

  [BILL 60.] COMMITTEE PUT OFF.
  Order for Committee read,
  MR. VANCEsaid, that in the absence of the hon. Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Collins), he desired that the Committee should be postponed. ["No. no!"] There was an understanding with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock

  1037
  (Mr. E. P. Bouverie) that it should not be brought on. ["No, no!"]
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House will. To-morrow, resolve itself into a Committee on the said Bill."
  MR. M'CANN MR. M'CANN moved that the Order be discharged.
  MR. DENMANseconded the Motion. He felt that the House had not been treated with courtesy in being kept there the whole evening upon some understanding between two Members, that if the Bill came on after a certain hour, it was to be discussed; and if before a certain hour, it was to be postponed. He knew there was a strong feeling on the part of several hon. Members that the Bill had been allowed to pass through its previous stages as it were, per incuriam, and that it did no credit to the House.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the Order for the Committee on the said Bill be discharged,"—instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. VANCEbelieved that the present was the first occasion that advantage had been taken of the absence of an hon. Member who had charge of it to endeavour to discharge a Bill which had been only once under discussion. There was a distinct arrangement between himself and the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock, who was to lead the Opposition to it, that it should not come on before ten o'clock; and he certainly did not think hon. Members opposite were acting with courtesy in adopting the course which they were pursuing in the absence of the hon. Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Collins), who he knew would be in his place had he thought it probable the Government business would have terminated so soon. He trusted hon. Members would not persist in pressing a Motion which, if carried, would bring discredit on the proceedings of the House. ["Oh, oh!"]
  MR. HUNTthought, that considering the course which had been taken with respect to the Bill which stood upon the paper immediately before that under discussion (the Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society Winding-up Bill, which had been deferred), it would be dealing out but scant courtesy to the hon. Member for Knares-
  1038
  borough if the Motion for rejecting his Bill were in his absence persevered with.
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSENdenied that those on his side the House were acting in a way which could fairly be regarded as discourteous. It was a more discourteous proceeding to put a Bill down for discussion, and to leave the question of whether it should come on or not to depend upon the circumstance whether its supporters happened or not to have come back from dinner. He asked the hon. Member for Knaresborough yesterday whether he meant to bring in his Bill to-night, and he distinctly replied "Yes." The Bill had been read a second time; and it was highly disrespectful to the House to say, that if an hon. Member happened to come down to the House after dinner in time, the Bill should go on; but if not, that it should not.
  SIR MATTHEW RIDLEY SIR MATTHEW RIDLEY moved the adjournment of the debate.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  MR. WHITESIDEthought there had been some slight mistake in the matter. He understood the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock, who was to oppose the Bill, had been consulted, and that there was an understanding it should not come on before ten. It could not be expected that the Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society Winding-up Act (1861) Amendment Bill, would have been so speedily disposed of.
  SIR GEORGE GREYwas of opinion that some explanation was due to the House from the hon. Member for Knaresborough (who had now entered the House) on the subject. If he had intimated to his Friends on the other side of the House that the Bill would not come on that evening, then it was rather a want of courtesy not to have given a similar intimation to other hon. Members who were opposed to the measure.
  SIR MATTHEW RIDLEYsaid, he had been distinctly informed that the Bill would not come on till after ten o'clock.
  MR. COLLINS (who spoke amid much interruption)said, he did not exactly know at what stage the proceedings had arrived. He might, however, state that it was his intention that the Bill should come on that evening. He, at the same time, knowing that it was a Government night, and not expecting that the Government business would be finished so early, had not deemed it necessary, having been occupied elsewhere, to come into the House before ten

  1039
  or eleven o'clock. It was, indeed, somewhat extraordinary that the programme laid down by the Government should have been exhausted by half past nine. He recollected no previous instance in which so formidable a programme had been so speedily disposed of. [Cries of "Question!"] He would be heard, and hon. Members might, therefore, call out "Question!" as long as they pleased. Such a mode of transacting Government business as that to which he was adverting was most inconvenient, inasmuch as it gave Ministers a control over the whole evening on Government nights. He knew, of course, that the theory was that hon. Members ought to be always in their places, but in practice they sometimes went to their dinners. The Government might, at any time they pleased, by postponing one or two of their Orders, bring on the Bills of private Members at a time when those who had charge of them, or those who were friendly to them, were not present. He was very reluctant to "speak against time," but he had been driven to do so by the course which had been adopted by hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Ministerial benches were well lined, while those on his side were almost empty. The hon. Member accordingly addressed the House at great length; but amid so much interruption and confusion that little consecutive argument could be heard.
  MR. MARSHsaid, he was not a party man, but he had no hesitation in describing: this Bill as a job. It was a Bill to encourage bribery and corruption. Who were the freemen but the persons who could be bribed and corrupted?
  SIR HERVEY BRUCEdenied that the Bill was a job, and thought it was not a proper imputation to make against those who had voted for it upon a former occasion. He would call the attention of the House to the difference between freemen in large towns and those in small towns. Was it fair that the freeman who lived out of town should be disfranchised because his residence was more than seven miles from I the centre of a large town, while if the town had been less extensive, the centre would have been within that distance of his house? For himself, he thought that the classes of freemen whom the Bill would revive was the class most free from corrupt influences.
  MR. E. P. BOUVERIEreminded the House that the Question before it was simply whether the debate should be adjourn-
  1040
  ed. He would suggest that that Motion should be withdrawn and that the hon. Member for Drogheda (Mr. M'Cann) should also withdraw his Motion for discharging the order, and then they could discuss the Motion for going into Committee. The hon. Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Collins) seemed to be annoyed at the course that had been taken, but it was he who was to blame. It was unprecedented that an hon. Member should complain that a Bill of which he had charge had come on at an unusually early hour. After the understanding that had been come to respecting the first Order on the paper, it was expected that the Government business would be disposed of at an early hour, and therefore many hon. Gentlemen who were anxious to oppose the Bill had remained in the House at some inconvenience; but when the Order was called, the hon. Member for Knaresborough was not present. It was natural, under such circumstances, that some annoyance and indignation should have been expressed. It would have been only in accordance with that courtesy that was almost universally practised in that House if the hon. Member had given notice to Members generally that he did not intend to bring on the Bill if it was called on at an early hour. He thought that the hon. Gentleman, in speaking so long "against time," had been wanting in that courtesy which was usually practised in that House. As he once heard said in this House, the rules of this House were made by gentlemen for gentlemen; and if those rules were to be disregarded, the sooner they were changed the better.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONthought that the proposal just made as to the course of proceeding was a perfectly fair one, and he hoped it would be acceded to; but he was bound to add that he thought the latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was by no means fair. An attack had been made upon his hon. Friend (Mr. Collins), to which he was by no means open. That had happened to him which might at any moment happen to any Member of this House having charge of a Bill —the progress of public business was quicker than he anticipated, and he was not present when the Bill was called on. But neither was the right hon. Gentleman who had given notice of an Amendment present to make it; and if his hon. Friend had neglected his duty, the right hon. Gentleman had neglected it rather more, for he came into the House last. Altogether,

  1041
  he had never heard an attack which seemed to him to be in worse taste than that made by the right hon. Gentleman.
  MR. LIDDELLprotested against the remark that the whole body of freemen were corrupt. No doubt many of this class of voters had been corrupted, because they were poor; but the blame was upon those who corrupted them. The freemen who were not corrupt, or who were not likely to be corrupt, were the very men to whom this Bill would apply; and he asked the House of Commons to deal with the anomaly which had been pointed out by the hon. Member for Knaresborough.
  SIR MINTO FARQUHARsaid, he was astonished at the arguments used by hon. Members who professed to be anxious to extend the franchise. If a £6 franchise were created, a large proportion of these freemen would become voters, and then he trusted that the language of hon. Gentlemen opposite would not be forgotten.
  MR. BONHAM-CARTERsaid, that as one of those who had been in the House from an early hour expecting that the Bill would come on, he must say he thought there had been an absence of the usual courtesy on the part of the hon. Member who had charge of the measure. When a Member was in charge of a Bill, the House might reasonably expect that he should be in his place when it came on, at whatever time that might be.
  MAJOR HAMILTONsaid, that on this question an appeal had been made by the hon. Member (Mr. Collins) to Scotch Members possessing a knowlege of Scotch law. He was a Scotch Member, but knew nothing whatever of Scotch law, the study of his life having been to keep out of all law, and especially of Scotch law. He knew the feelings of the Scotch people, however, and had no hesitation in saying that they wished that the number of Scotch voters should be increased. He regretted that the great Liberal party which sat opposite should have endeavoured to put down the hon. Member for Knaresborough when making a Liberal speech. His idea of Liberalism was that every person who was entitled to vote under the Reform Act should be permitted to exercise the franchise. As the Bill was intended to effect that object, he should give it his cordial support.
  MR. VANCEsaid, he had informed the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock, that if the Bill should be called on before ten o'clock, it would be postponed; but that if
  1042
  it should not be taken till after that hour it would be proceeded with. No discourtesy had therefore been shown to the I right hon. Gentleman or his Friends.
  SIR MATTHEW RIDLEYsaid, he would withdraw his Motion for the adjournment of the debate.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  Amendment, and Original Question, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. COLLINS MR. COLLINS moved that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair, in order that the House might go into Committee on the Bill.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. E. P. BOUVERIEproposed an Amendment, that the House should go into a Committee that day six months.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House; will, upon this day six months, resolve itself into the said Committee," —instead thereof.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 139; Noes 182: Majority 43.
  Words added.
  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Committee put off for six months.

JUDGMENTS LAW AMENDMENT (IRELAND) BILL [MR. WHITESIDE]— [BILL 71.]

  COMMITTEE.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
  Clause 3 (Repeal of certain Acts).
  MR. BUTTsaid, that this Bill proposed to make the law of Ireland similar to the law of England with regard to the law of judgments. But the law in England was based on the writ of elegit, whereas this measure did not propose to restore that in Ireland. The result of the measure, if passed, would be to force the estates of the landed proprietors in Ireland into the In-cumbered Estates Court.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, that the Bill proposed to make the law in Ireland really what the law of England was under Lord St. Leonards' Act. The writ of elegit had only been issued once in Ireland during the last two years. The measure he proposed would do away with the system of receivers; it gave a facile and inexpensive mode of proceeding.
  MR. BUTTsaid, that it would be impolitic to abolish all remedies for debt against lands in Ireland except that of a sale. He did not object to the law of elegit as it at present existed.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, that the existing law of what were called judgment mortgages was the worst contrivance that the wit of man ever conceived. They were neither mortgages or judgments properly so called, but a hovering lien which no lawyer could understand.
  After some further conversation Sir ROBERT PEEL proposed that the further consideration of the Bill be postponed.
  House resumed.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again on Wednesday 13th May.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.

  NOMINATION OF COMMITTEE.
  MR. HENRY SEYMOUR MR. HENRY SEYMOUR moved that the Select Committee consist of sixteen Members.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Select Committee on the Ecclesiastical Commission do consist of sixteen Members."
  MR. LYGON MR. LYGON moved an Amendment, that the Select Committee consist of seventeen Members.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "sixteen" and insert the word "seventeen,"—(Mr. Lygon,)—instead thereof.
  Question, "That the word 'sixteen' stand part of the Question,"—put, and negatived.
  Word "seventeen" inserted.
  Committee nominated:—
  MR. HENRY SEYMOUR, Mr. LOWE, Mr. WALPOLE, Mr. LOCKE KING, Mr. EDWARD PLEYDELL BOUVERIE, Lord ROBERT CECIL, Mr. Alderman COPELAND, Mr. FENWICK, Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY, Lord FERMOY, Mr. NEWDESATE, Mr. THE, Mr. KINNAIRD, Mr. SCOURFIELD, Mr. SELWYN, Mr. HUNT, and Sir WILLIAM HEATHCOTE:—Power to send for persons, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.

  ACCIDENTS COMPENSATION BILL.
  On Motion of Sir JAMES FERGIJSSON, Bill to regulate the Compensation for Accidents, ordered to be brought in by Sir JAMES FEBGUSSON and Mr. THOMPSON.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 103.]

  WATCHMEN IN TOWNS (IRELAND) BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. BAGWELL, Bill to make more effectual provision for the appointment of Watchmen in Towns in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. BAGWELL and Mr. WALDRON.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 102.]
  House adjourned at half after One o'clock.

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Dunmore, after the death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Elections during Recess (No. 84); Bakehouses Regulation (No. 85).
Second Reading—Corrupt Practice at Elections (No. 62); Hares (Ireland) (No. 52); Inclosure (No. 59).
Third Reading—Drainage of Land (Ireland) (No. 33), and passed.

ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 50.)
Returned from the Commons, with certain of the Amendments agreed to, and some disagreed to; together with their Reasons for such Disagreement: The said Reasons, and Bill, with the Amendments, to be printed. (Nos. 82 and 83)
DRAINAGE OF LAND (IRELAND) BILL.

  (No. 33.) THIRD READING.
  THE EARL OF BELMORE(in the absence of Viscount Lifford) moved. That the Bill be now read 3a.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he thought the Hill had bettor go on, as the Government had introduced a Bill that evening in another place, to effect the objects intended by what were known as Colonel Dickson's Clauses, which had been expunged from this Bill.
  Bill read 3a, and passed.

UNITED STATES—SEIZURE OF BRITISH SHIPS WITH MAIL-BAGS.

  EXPLANATION.
  EARL RUSSELL:—My Lords, as the question of the seizure of the Peterhoff the detention of Her Majesty's mails has been recently the subject of discussion in this House, it may be convenient to your Lordships that I should state the substance of the information 1 have received this day from Lord Lyons. In his despatches Lord Lyons states, that in answer to his application with respect to the Peterhoff and the mail-bags, Mr. Seward informed him, that with respect to the ship and cargo, the Executive Committee of America had decided not to release the vessel, but to send her before the prize court. As for the mails, the American Government had determined, in conformity with the letter of the 31st of October, to send them to their destination; and the same procedure is to be adopted in all similar cases. Mr.

  981
  Seward also expressed the hope that some satisfactory arrangement might be arrived at between the two Governments. The law of nations, he said, did not lay down any precise or clear rule with respect to the practice, which is somewhat novel, of sending mail-bags by private ships, and therefore he wished to make a communication to Her Majesty's Government on the subject. He did not state what the nature of that communication would be, and. of course, it will be matter for subsequent consideration.
  LORD CHELMSFORD:—Did I understand the noble Earl to intimate that in future the American Government will forward the mails to their destination without breaking the seals? I hope the communications which have passed on the subject, will be laid on the table as soon as possible.
  EARL RUSSELLsaid, the noble Lord had understood rightly. As to the production of the communications which had been received from America, Her Majesty's Government must first consider what answer they would give, and what proceedings they would take.

CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL—(No. 62)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a: (Earl Russell.)
  LORD REDESDALEdoubted the expediency of giving the House of Commons so much power as this Bill conferred, of interfering with the constitutional right of elections by suspending the issue of writs. By Clause 10 there was a provision enabling the House of Commons, by its own Act, to suspend the issue of a writ for five years from the date of the Report. This he thought was unconstitutional.
  LORD LYVEDENobjected to the clause (Clause 11) which threw on any county or borough where bribery occurred the cost of the Commission of Inquiry, and which seemed to proceed on the absurd principle that the respectable part of the community could control, and were responsible for, the doings of the rascally part. It was a pity that the clause disqualifying attorneys and agents from voting, which was originally in the Bill, should have been struck out. Those men were the only licensed class of bribees, and it was a com-
  982
  mon tiling to engage a great many of them at an election for the sake of their votes. The fact was, this Bill was intended as a salve to the conscience of the Legislature, and to make it appear to be doing something which it was leaving undone. At present there was no strong public feeling against bribery, and until such a feeling was called forth it would not be extinguished by any number of Acts of Parliament. There was no one to prosecute for bribery except the defeated candidate, and it was not likely that he would take proceedings, when, if he succeeded, he would only unseat his opponent, without seating himself. A Member of Parliament suffered no loss of social position from bribing. If there were any sincere desire to put down bribery, it could easily be done; but there was no such sincerity. In his own case, he sat for a constituency for twenty-five years, and paid £4,000 on his first return, and £400 in his last. That reduction was entirely due to the zeal and exertions of his committee and constituents.
  THE EARL OF VERULAMobserved, that such a measure as this could only be effectual when supported by public opinion.
  EARL GREYsaid, this was one of the most absurd pieces of legislation ever presented to Parliament. He did not know how any man could believe that a Bill of this sort could have the least effect in stopping bribery. He quite agreed in the observation, that if there had been a sincere desire to abolish corruption, on clause would have been more effectual than that disqualifying attorneys and agents. It was perfectly notorious that it was a common mode of bribery to retain a large number of agents and messengers nominally for their services, but really for their votes. It had often been shown, before Election Committees, that that was a most effectual mode of bribery. Yet the clause, which would have prevented that, was struck out and another inserted, throwing the cost of the Commission of Inquiry on the place where bribery was committed. The latter provision was manifestly unjust. He hoped that the expenses of the Commission would be made to fall only on those who had votes, and who might possibly be guilty, and not on their Lordships and others who had no votes to dispose of. He did not believe that bribery was to be put down by any legislative measure. If one set of men were anxious to give and another set to

  983
  take bribes, no amount of ingenuity on the part of Parliament could track out or defeat all the various devices by which that object might be accomplished. In order to carry out the principle, it should be made penal for a landlord to let a farm somewhat under the usual rent, and so on. If they once entered on such a course of legislation, there was no saying where they were to stop. The only way to put down bribery, was to enlist public opinion against it, and to make such arrangements as should diminish, as much as possible, the opportunities for practising it. The present Bill would be useless and nugatory, and was only a piece of solemn hypocrisy, because it attempted to put down an evil by means which were well known to be ineffectual.
  EARL RUSSELLsaid, that as the Bill consisted of detached clauses, he thought it would be better to defer the discussion until the Committee. It was, of course, difficult, if not impossible, to put a stop entirely to bribery, but legislation might, at least, impose some check on it; and the proceedings of some of the Committees of the House of Commons, had succeeded in putting a stop to bribery in some places. When a man spent several thousand pounds in getting returned to Parliament, and then was unseated, he was made to see that bribery was unprofitable. As to the clause alluded to, as having been struck out, which provided that agents should be disqualified, nothing could be easier than to evade it.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

THE FORTS AT SPITHEAD.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKErose to put a Question with regard to the Continuation of the Works on the Forts at Spithead. He said, that in the Session of Parliament of 1861, a very considerable sum of money was placed at the disposal of the Crown for the purpose of strengthening the fortifications and defences of the United Kingdom; and last year the Government began works of very considerable importance for this purpose. Among these works was one of great cost at Spithead; but after the expenditure of a very large sum of money, and when the foundation was nearly completed, a great difference
  984
  of opinion arose in the public mind in respect to the expediency of carrying on the work, and the progress of the work was suspended. There was sunk under the water a very considerable sum of money —perhaps about £100,000, though he did not exactly know the amount—and the work was bang acted on by time. Should it be suspended much longer, the public money expended on it would certainly be lost. Recently there had taken place on the other side of the Atlantic, in the port of Charleston, an occurrence which had awakened public attention, and induced him to take the opportunity of pressing the Government for a declaration as to their intentions in reference to the future progress of the work he had alluded to. A fortress had always had, from the most ancient times, the advantage over ships. He could cite an immense number of cases showing that from the beginning to the end fixed artillery and a fortress had the advantage over ships. For instance, in 1805, no less a person than Sir Sidney Smith attacked a single gun in a Martello tower with an 80 gun ship. After cannonading it for an hour, his first lieutenant went to Sir Sidney who was sitting in his cabin writing a despatch, and told him that (though there were a great many splinters round the Admiral) the fire had not been able to do the town any harm. Sir Sidney said, that under those circumstances, they had better go away; and so the ship was beaten off by a single gun. Other cases of a similar kind might be mentioned where two or three fixed guns were employed against heavy ships. At the battle of Copenhagen the victory was certainly with the English, but not in consequence of their artillery having an advantage over that of the Danes; but, in consideration for the population of that capital, it was thought proper to treat with the English rather than cause the town to be destroyed. At Algiers the case was different. No question arose there of a feeling for the population, but the battle was fought out; and so thoroughly were the English beaten that they cut their cables and got out of range, with the land wind. Afterwards the question was settled by the ingenuity and clever manner in. which Lord Exmouth conducted the affair; but the ships went out of action with the loss of a thousand men, and with no means of renewing the action again. Then, again, in the Black Sea, the result of the attack of our fleet on the forts of Sebastapol was

  985
  well known to their Lordships, and in the Baltic they only attempted the process of shelling a fort at long ranges. No doubt, in former times these operations were conducted by means of sailing vessels, which were exposed to the danger of their masts being shot away, or the wind falling off— inconveniences which were now obviated by the use of steam. Nevertheless, he maintained that fortresses and ships stood yet in the same comparative position as formerly; and not with standing the advantage given to ships by armour plating, the fixed gun and the fortress, in consequence of the improvements made in artillery, were still superior to ships. They had a proof of this in what occurred the other day in America. Whether the attack on Charleston was a real attack or not he could not pretend to say, and what was the true history of the attack and of the defence they none of them as yet exactly knew; but one or two points were unquestionable—namely, that nine iron-plated ships, very heavily armed had been beaten off and obliged to retreat, one vessel being sunk, and several others being seriously injured; and that this was done while the Federal squadron was advancing up a channel very much resembling that which the channel at Spithead would be if the proposed forts were built. Under these circumstances, he ventured to bring under the notice of the Government the position in which the question now stood with regard to the forts at Spithead. Both past and present events proved that the fortress was the master of the ship, and he therefore begged to ask whether it was the intention of the Government to proceed with the plans previously arranged, or with any others, in regard to the fortifications of Portsmouth. A large sum of public money had been expended; and if the work remained untouched for another year, a very great loss would be the result. He would give no opinion with respect to the mode of constructing the forts; but the whole of the inland waters near Portsmouth formed a great basin for the protection of vessels; and if it was determined to carry out the work, he thought that one fortress should be erected on the Brambles, which constituted a central position, whence the guns could reach the shore on all sides.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, a Bill passed through Parliament last Session, by virtue of which certain works specified in the schedule, and no others, were authorized to be carried on. After a good deal
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  of discussion in the House of Commons it was agreed that the construction of the forts at Spithead were to be not entirely abandoned, but suspended for a time. It was stated by the Government on that occasion, that as there were many works connected with the defences to be carried on, and as there was a doubt about the special advantage of the forts at Spithead, it might be as well to go on with the other works, and leave these for further consideration. A sum of £900,000 had been expended altogether, of which the expenditure on Spithead, up to July 1862, was only £15,000. A certain amount had been subsequently spent, owing to the engagement with the contractors, but the whole sum was not so large as the noble Earl seemed to think. In regard to what had occurred at Charleston, it was remarkable, that if the American Government had intended to carry out an experiment for our benefit in connection with this subject, they could not have done anything more to the point. The distance between our forts on the mainland and the sandbank was exactly 2,000 yards; and measuring on the charts the distance between Fort Sumter and Fort Moultrie, it would be found to be 2,000 yards also. In both cases there was a strong current, and in both cases similar facilities in approaching to within a certain distance of the forts. In both cases the same means of obstructing the attack, by means of fishing nets and other similar contrivances for fowling the screws and impeding the vessels, were talked of. Therefore, if we had asked them to try the experiment, they could not have selected a place more suitable than Charleston for that purpose. With regard to the vessels employed in the attack, he must admit that the experiment had not been equally satisfactory. It might be remembered that fourteen months ago we were told, by the American shipbuilders, that they had built the Monitor by way of warning to the British Admiralty. It certainly was a warning, for the first moment she met with a gale she went to the bottom. They built more Monitors, and these had failed in the first experiment of an action against forts. Had they built them more strongly and of a better class, we should have had a more interesting experiment, and should have known better what iron plated vessels could do against forts. The experiment, therefore, was not quite satisfactory. We did not know the description of guns that

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  were employed, mid the kind of shot and quantities of powder that were used, and many other particulars that were important to enable us to form an opinion upon that experiment. It was quite clear, however, that those vessels were completely defeated, and that another Monitor was sunk. So far it had been very decidedly in favour of the forts. With regard to Spithead, no money could he spent on the forts there at present. But it would be shortly necessary to come to Parliament for a grant of money, and that made it desirable that this question of the Spithead forts should be settled this year. If anything was to be done, the summer months ought not to be allowed to be lost. He hoped in a short time the Government would be able to bring the subject under the consideration of Parliament.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he understood the noble Duke to say that the circumstances at Charleston and Spithead were precisely similar, and to speak of the distance as 2,000 yards. But he (the Earl of Derby) thought the injury which had been inflicted on the iron plated vessels was inflicted after they entered the harbour, and had thus exposed themselves to a concentric fire from the batteries at a distance of from 300 to 500 yards. That was an important element in considering the subject.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, as far as the charts went, and as far as he could make out, the vessels at the nearest point must have been very nearly 600 yards from Fort Sumter, and the other forts must have been at a much greater distance. When he spoke of 2,000 yards, he meant the distance from one fort to another.
  EARL GREYsaid, he believed the iron-plated ships employed at Charleston were by all accounts inferior vessels, and yet they so far protected the men that scarcely any one on board was injured by the tremendous fire. Was not that the case? Was it not true that Charleston was six or seven miles from the place where the action took place; and, if the iron-plated vessels had been at Portsmouth instead of Charleston, would they not have been quite within range of the dockyard, so as to shell it, while allowing the forts to play on them?
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he did not know exactly the amount of damage that had been done. His impression was, that the ships were too far from the town to enable them to do much harm. Any one who looked at the chart would see that
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  the town was six or seven miles distant. The position of the ships with regard to the forts would, he thought, make it very disagreeable for any vessels to have strayed to shell the town.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.