Sitting of 20 April 1863

MINUTES.
NEW WRIT ISSUED—for New Radnor, v. the Right hon. Sir George Cornewall Lewis, baronet, deceased.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Church Buildings and New Parishes Acts Amendment [Bill 82]; Municipal Elections [Bill 83].
Second Reading—Prison Ministers [Bill 24]; Assurances Registration (Ireland) [Bill 46].
Committee—English Church Services in Wales (Lords) [Bill 53].
Report — English Church Services in Wales (Lords) [Bill 81].
Third Reading—Gardens in Towns Protection (Lords) [Bill 50], and passed.
Bill withdrawn—Roman Catholic Marriages Registration [Bill 73].

FISHERIES PROSECUTIONS IN IRELAND.—QUESTION.
MR. BLAKEsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the Records of the Board of Public Works in
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Ireland show that other Letters than those contained in the Return to an Order of the House, March 3 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 109), passed between the Fishery Department and Mr. Michael Dobbyn, one of the Defendants in a late Fishery Prosecution, instituted at the instance of the Board, between 26th January, and February 1st, 1863; and whether, in the event of there being such other Letters, there is any objection to lay them upon the table of the House?
MR. PEELsaid, so far as he knew, all the Letters which had passed between the Department and Mr. Dobbyn had been included in the Return. It did, however, appear, from a record kept by the Board, that a letter dated 30th January had been sent from the Commissioner (Mr. Barry), to Mr. Dobbyn. But that letter was private. At all events, it was sealed, and therefore its contents were not known to the Board of Works, and it could not be included in the Return.

DESTITUTION IN IRELAND.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GREGORYsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether any Reports from the Poor Law Inspectors have reached him as to the state of destitution in the western districts of Galway and Mayo; if so, whether he will lay these Reports before the House; if not, if he will order the Inspectors to report as to the condition of those districts?
  SIR ROBERT PEEL, in reply to the question of his hon. Friend, begged to say that he was constantly in the habit of receiving Reports from the Poor Law Inspectors as to the condition of the different districts in Ireland. By reference to their last Report his hon. Friend would see what was the general state of Ireland in the estimation of the Poor Law Commissioners. The Government would have no objection to lay any of the recent Reports on the table of the House.

BANDA AND KIRWEE BOOTY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ANGERSTEINsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the Law Officers of the Crown have been consulted and have pronounced their opinion on the subject of the Bands, and Kirwee Booty, and whether there is any objection to communicate their opinion

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  to the House; whether it is the intention of the Government to recommend the distribution of the Prize Money according to the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown; and, if the preferential right of the actual Captors has been established, whether there is any other cause for delay in distributing this Prize Money?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: We have not, Sir, yet been able to come to any decision with respect to this matter. Very lately I received a counter-statement from some of the parties concerned, and no answer could be given till that counter-statement, which was most adverse to the claims, had been duly considered. I may state in explanation, however, that the matter is not one that turns on any question of law. The decision rests entirely with the discretion of the Crown, and that discretion must be governed according to the principles of justice and equity as depending on, and governed by, the circumstances of the case.
  MR ANGERSTEIN: Will the noble Lord name any day when it will be convenient to give an answer if I repeat the question?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: It is very difficult to name any day on which it may be convenient, consistently with the attention demanded by other questions, to enter into this matter, which involves considerable detail.
  MR. ANGERSTEIN: The parties are very much interested.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Oh, of course; the parties on both sides are much interested.

IRON-PLATED SHIPS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. LONGFIELDsaid, he rose to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, If the Iron Plate Committee have made any Report on the subject referred to them; if so, whether he has any objection to lay the same before this House?
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, in reply, that the Iron Plate Company had been in the habit of making very derailed Reports to the Admiralty of all the experiments that had taken place at Shoeburyness. If that information could be confined to Members of that House, there would be little objection to furnishing it; but the Government thought it extremely unadvisable and impolitic that the results of those experiments should be known to the world.

MR. ADAMS, THE AMERICAN MINISTER.

  QUESTION.
  MR. PEACOCKEsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether information has been received at the Foreign Office with regard to a statement that was made by Mr. Crawford to Lord Russell on the subject of Mr. Adams having granted a Special Letter to a certain vessel which sailed from this country to carry supplies to Matamoras for the Mexican Government, to be used in their present war against France; and, if so, whether Mr. Adams has acknowledged the correctness of that statement; in which event, also to ask what course the Government intend to pursue with reference to Mr. Adams?
  MR. LAYARD: I beg to reply that the matter is still under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government, and no communication has yet been made to Mr. Adams on the subject.

POLICE IN COUNTIES AND BOROUGHS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. KEKEWICHsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the sum voted by Parliament for the Police Force in Counties and Boroughs is calculated on the net expenditure, after deducting the amount of the superannuation fund, rent, fines, and stoppages; and, if so, for what reason the Government objects to repay one-fourth of the whole amount expended for the pay and clothing?
  MR. PEELsaid, in reply, that the contribution to which the Government was liable by Act of Parliament was limited not to exceed one-fourth of the cost of the pay and clothing of the Police Force, and by that they considered was meant the real pay and not anything which might be merely nominal pay. Where, therefore, they had found allowances for travelling expenses, or allowances for the rental of houses, had been converted into pay and made part of the pay, they had separated and set aside that portion in calculating the sum upon which their contribution was due. In the same way with regard to the deductions for the superannuation fund and for fines, as those were deductions made compulsorily, the Government did not think they would be justified under the Act in contributing towards them.

PRISON MINISTERS BILL— [BILL 24.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  SIR GEORGE GREY: Sir, as a considerable time has elapsed since I obtained leave to introduce this Bill, and as many hon. Members may probably now be in the House who were not present on that occasion, I think it right, without entering into all the details I then laid before the House, that I should preface the Motion for the second reading by a brief reference to the main facts on which the Bill is founded, as well as to the provisions of the Bill itself. I am the more anxious to do this because I am well aware that very strong feelings of objection exist in many quarters to any alteration of the existing law as regards the religions instruction of prisoners in county prisons in England and Scotland. Those are feelings which I cannot but respect, because I believe them to be founded on religions conviction, but they are feelings, I must add, which appear to me to be utterly mistaken and misapplied with reference to the provisions of this Bill. I cannot bring myself to understand that this Bill raises any question that can be connected with the truth or error of any church or form of religious belief. If that were the question at issue, I should agree with my hon. Friends who object to any alteration of the law in this respect, their objection being, I believe, founded on conscientious attachment, which I fully share with them, to the doctrines of the Protestant religion as professed by the great majority of the inhabitants of this country. But I do not think this question enters at all into the consideration of the subject now before the House, nor does that subject involve the admission of any principle which can possibly be injurious to the maintenance of Protestant doctrine. The Bill, in fact, involves no new principle; it involves only the extension of a principle we have already sanctioned and recognised repeatedly, that extension being demanded by regard to our own consistency as well as by a sense of justice to a large portion of our fellow subjects—the Roman Catholics of this country. I formerly stated, that although the terms of the Bill, following the terms of the existing law, are general, and do not refer to any particular denomination of Christians, yet the application of its provisions will he chiefly, at all events, confined to Roman Catholics. I desire to
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  state this without reserve or concealment. What are the main facts with which we have to deal? The principal fact is, that there are to be found in the county and borough gaols of England and Wales a very large number of prisoners who are members of the Roman Catholic Church. According to a Return made on the Motion of the noble Lord the Member for Arundel (Lord Edward Howard) at the beginning of last year, there were no less than between 3,000 and 4,000 Roman Catholic prisoners in the county and borough gaols of England and Wales, besides about 1,500 Roman Catholics in the convict prisons of this country. I am afraid, also, that from the increase of crime since then, the number is now larger. Nor is that surprising. Considering the great facility of intercourse which of late has been created between Ireland and the other portions of the United Kingdom, and bearing in mind the higher rate of remuneration for manual labour obtained in this country, the result has been a large influx into England and Scotland of Irish labourers, nearly all of whom would be Roman Catholics. They form a considerable portion of the population of our large towns, and especially of that class which is devoted to manual and unskilled labour. That is, to a certain extent the case in London; and it is so to a greater extent in Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, and other centres of commerce and manufacture. Considering the circumstances, the lives these people lead —the ignorance too often, I fear, arising, from inattention to their spiritual and moral interests—it is not surprising that the labouring classes of the population furnish the great bulk of our criminal population, and of the inmates of our gaols; nor is it a matter of surprise that there should be found among them a large number of Roman Catholics. But before considering their condition in prison, let us consider their normal condition in this country. In a religious point of view, they have perfect freedom; they have chapels and priests, with the fullest opportunities of attending the public worship of their Church, and of receiving the private ministrations of their priests. In addition, they receive, out of a grant annually voted by Parliament, aid for their schools, in order to remove the ignorance which too often prevails among persons in that class of life. But let us go a step further. Many of our recruits are taken from that class—

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  a vast number of Irish Roman Catholics are to be found in the ranks of the army. The discipline of the army, the duties which it has to perform, and the stations where troops may be posted, make it impossible that a soldier can have the same individual freedom as to attending the ministrations of his Church, or of receiving the private instruction of his priest, as he had before enlistment. The connection between the priest and the soldier, as a member of his congregation, is severed when he enters the army. What does the State do? The State provides, by commissioned Protestant chaplains, for the religious instruction of the great bulk of the army. Presbyterian chaplains are attached to certain Scotch regiments, and Roman Catholics are placed upon the same footing. By the Return presented last year it appears that there are no less than eighteen commissioned Roman Catholic chaplains provided for by grants annually voted by this House, for the religious instruction of Roman Catholic soldiers, and they are exclusive of the provision which is made for the religious instruction of troops in Ireland, and in various stations abroad. But let us go a step further. The soldier, when he enlists, finds his religious wants provided for by the State, and I am happy to say no objection is ever made to that particular Vote in the War Estimates. But what is the case if he commits an offence which results in a sentence of imprisonment? If he commits a military offence, he is tried by court martial; and if there be a military prison in the district which is not full, he is sent there to undergo his punishment. In these prisons, if within reach of a commissioned chaplain, it is part of the duty of such chaplain to give his attendance in them; but when the prison is too remote from a commissioned chaplain, then special provision is made for the services of a local priest to minister to the spiritual necessities of the prisoner. But supposing there is no military prison near, or that it is full, then the Roman Catholic soldier is sent to undergo his sentence in the borough or county gaol. Or let us take the more common case, that the offence committed is against the ordinary law of the country; the offender is given up to the civil power, and, after conviction, is sent to the civil prison. What is the consequence of this, which may be the result of the mere accident of there being no military prison near, or its being full? Here we
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  come to what seems to me to be a defect in the law, for which a remedy should be found. The law, with regard to county prisons, is most specific, and therefore I shall refer to it. The law relating to the borough prisons is, in the main, of the same character, but I need not refer to the details. In all county prison it is very properly required that a chaplain of the Established Church should be appointed, who is paid in proportion to the number of prisoners which the gaol is capable of receiving. Upon that chaplain, not by regulation, but by law, are imposed certain duties. He is bound not merely to read, the services of the Church, but to visit every room and cell in which prisoners are confined, irrespective of their creed; and to him is committed the responsibility, or the right, or the duty, whichever it may be called, of prescribing the lessons which are to be taught, and the books which are to be read by the prisoners for their moral and religious instruction. Roman Catholic prisoners equally with Protestants, subject only to one modification, are committed to the exclusive care of the Protestant chaplain. There is a modification, I allow. It is contained in what is called the "special request clause," by which, at the special request of any prisoner who is not a member of the Established Church, he may, under such regulations as are consistent with the rules of the prison, be visited by a minister of his own church. Let the House bear in mind, that although the request be made and complied with, it in no degree modifies the obligation cast by law upon the Protestant chaplain to visit every room and cell in the prison, and to prescribe the lessons and books to be used by all the prisoners. In one case only is that law relaxed, and that is in regard to persons under sentence of death. In those cases, out of regard, I presume, to the highest interests of persons standing on the verge of eternity, it is provided, that where the person so condemned is not a member of the Established Church, at his special request he may be attended by a minister of his own faith, to whose exclusive care he shall be left. I think the contrast between what is done for a Roman Catholic soldier in a military prison with what occurs to him in a civil gaol shows that the law is defective. Circumstances have changed since the law was made. Owing to causes to which I have referred, the Roman Catholic population in the country has largely increased, not, in-

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  deed, by conversions, but by a large influx of Irish Roman Catholics, and therefore it is not surprising that the number of Roman Catholics in our gaols is very much larger than it was at the time the existing Act was passed. The large number of Roman Catholics in our prisons is a matter which it is right the House should take into account. It is not necessary, nor probable, that the provisions of this Bill, although general, will be applicable to the great majority of prisons. There are some, which I enumerated when I brought in the Bill, in which the proportion of Roman Catholic prisoners to Protestants is very large. I will now only refer to Liverpool, the strongest case certainly, where, out of 888 prisoners, 485 at the date of the last Return were Roman Catholics, all of whom are subject to the general law I have mentioned. I may say here that there are some exceptions in the Return I have quoted, and I refer particularly to the case of Stafford County Gaol, and to the gaol at Knutsford, where the visiting magistrates have disregarded the special request clause, and have authorized the regular visits of Roman Catholic priests. In saying that they have disregarded the law as it stands I do not mean to say a word to their disparagement, because I think that they have done right. But this is a course taken in very few instances, and in the great majority of cases magistrates feel that they are bound to abide by the letter and the spirit of the law, and have refused to sanction similar arrangements, until they can act under the authority of Parliament. Well, then, how does this special request clause act? The Return to which I have just referred gives some instructive information on this point. With the exception of the few cases in which the visiting justices allow Roman Catholic prisoners to be visited by their priests, special requests are rarely made, and out of the 485 Roman Catholic prisoners in Liverpool, the total number of requests made to be visited by a priest was only thirty-six. I know that some of my hon. Friends allege that the very infrequency of these special requests argues a preference for Protestant teaching on the part of prisoners, and that if permission to visit is given to Roman Catholic priests, it will be an interference with the religious freedom of those prisoners. I must say that this seems to me to be an extraordinary argument. I believe that the infrequency of
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  these requests arises not from the preference of prisoners for one form of religion or another, but from an aversion or indifference to any religious instruction whatever; and if Protestant prisoners were only visited by Protestant chaplains when they made a special request to that effect, the result would probably be just the same. Just for a moment attempt to reverse the case. Let my hon. Friends, who object to the provisions of this Bill, suppose they were Members of a Protestant minority in a community composed chiefly of Roman Catholics, living under a Roman Catholic Government; and that persons professing their own religions faith, from their circumstances in life, from the peculiar temptations to which they were subjected, or from any other causes, composed a considerable proportion of the criminal population of the country. Would it be satisfactory to them, or would it be a sufficient answer to them, when they asked that adequate provision should be made for the religious instruction of those persons, to be told that all prisoners were placed by law under the exclusive care of Roman Catholic priests, but that they might be visited by Protestant ministers if they made a special request, though even those visits would not exempt them from repeated personal intercourse with Roman Catholic priests, with whom it would rest what books were provided for their instruction? That would be a state of the law anything but satisfactory to my hon. Friends; they would refuse to acquiesce in any such arrangements; and how, then, can we expect our Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen to be contented with the state of the law which I have now described, or how can we think them unreasonable in pressing for some change? Now, what has been done in Ireland? That, as we know, is mainly a Roman Catholic country, and there the law has made ample provision for the religious instruction of prisoners. I find, from a Return made to the House, that in every gaol in Ireland there is a paid Protestant chaplain, although in some of those gaols there is not a single Protestant prisoner. Ample provision is also made where there are Presbyterian prisoners for the regular attendance, secured by payment, of a Presbyterian chaplain. Besides this—and I think rightly, for it shows that whatever our opinions may be, circumstances are sometimes too strong for us, and that it is necessary to

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  modify principles in the face of facts—in every county and borough prison in Ireland there is a paid Roman Catholic priest to minister to the wants of Roman Catholic prisoners. Now, I do not ask in this Bill that the law in England and Scotland should be placed in the same state as in Ireland. The provisions of the Bill will only be applicable to a small minority of the prisons in this country. I propose to recognise the justices in England, and the local authorities in Scotland having charge of the prisons, as the persons to whose discretion it may be left to decide whether the number of persons dissenting from the Established Church in any prison is such as to require that their spiritual wants should be attended to by the regular visitation of a Roman Catholic priest or a minister of any other denomination. If the justices should be of opinion —and there are some cases, like that at Liverpool, where they can hardly fail to be of opinion—that the number of prisoners is so large as to require the regular attendance of a Roman Catholic priest or Dissenting minister (though the number of Protestant Dissenters in our prisons is so few that the appointment of a Dissenting minister will hardly be necessary) they will be empowered under the Bill to select and appoint a priest or minister for this purpose. That appointment will not necessarily carry with it remuneration, and it will be subject to the ordinary regulations of the prison, and be liable to revocation by those who made it. The justices are responsible for the discipline and good order of the prison, and it is therefore right that they should have the right of excluding from the prison any officer whose presence they might think dangerous to good order. There may be cases in which it is unnecessary that the whole time of the priest or his regular attendance should be secured, but in which magistrates may be of opinion that a priest should be allowed to visit the prison. In such cases the magistrates will be competent to make an arrangement similar to that made in the case of the military prisons. Another question will be, whether the circumstances are such as to entitle the Roman Catholic priest to any remuneration; and if that is decided affirmatively, the salary will be defrayed out of the ordinary fund applicable for the maintenance of the prison. But where there is only a small number of Roman Catholic prisoners, and no regular appointment is made, the Bill
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  contemplates an extension of the special request clause, by enabling the justices, without a special request being made by individual prisoners, to allow the visits of a priest or Dissenting minister, under such restrictions as they may think fit to impose to guard against the introduction of improper persons into the gaol. The second clause of the Bill provides means by which prisoners may be distinguished according to their religions belief. There will be no practical difficulty in this, and it is proposed, therefore, that a list should be kept, and should be open to the ministers of different denominations, in order that they may know what prisoners of their own denominations are confined in the gaol, and that they may, on the other hand, have no excuse for encroaching upon the duties of the Protestant chaplain by interfering with any other prisoners than those of their own Church. The last clause of the Bill is one which, in connection with the preceding, modifies that part of the law applicable to county prisons in England which imposes upon Protestant chaplains the duty of holding personal intercourse with all prisoners, of whatever creed, who may happen to be confined there. In the case of prisoners visited by ministers of other denominations, the chaplains of the Established Church will be exonerated from the legal obligation of visiting them. These are the general provisions of the Bill. They are few, but important, and I earnestly hope that they will be favourably considered by the House. Remembering what took place last Session, when I objected to the Bill introduced by the hon. Member (Mr. Hennessy), because I thought it contained provisions which would be subversive of good order in our gaols, and went beyond the necessities of the case, I felt that I was bound, having, admitted that some change in the law was necessary, myself to bring forward a measure on this subject. After expressing such an opinion, I could not have resisted such a Bill, if again brought forward by the hon. Member, without stating how far I was prepared to go in modifying the existing law. Under those circumstances, Sir, the Government have thought it right to introduce this Bill, believing that it will remove a substantial grievance, and at the same time that it contains provisions which will prevent any injurious consequences arising from the adoption of the practice which it seeks to establish. I hope the House will take the same view, and that they will

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  agree to the Motion which I beg leave to make—namely, that the Bill be now read a second time.
  Motion made, and question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. HENRY GORE LANGTONsaid, he rose to move as an Amendment, that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. His right hon. Friend, in introducing the measure, expressed a hope; that the discussion upon the second reading would be conducted in a spirit of charity, and that no attack would be made upon the convictions of any religious denomination in the community. He cordially concurred in that hope, and in the course of a few observations he intended to offer he should endeavour as much as possible to refrain from making any which might be hurtful to the feelings of his Roman Catholic Friends. What was the history of the measure? In the last Session a Bill was introduced by the hon. Member for King's County (Mr. Hennessy), called the Roman Catholic Prisons Bill, That Bill contained a provision which was deemed extremely objectionable by both sides of the House — namely, that the Roman Catholic chaplain of a gaol should be appointed by the self-styled Roman Catholic bishop of the diocese. It was found that the House would not hear of a Bill with such a provision, and it was accordingly withdrawn; the right hon. Baronet (Sir George Grey) undertaking to introduce a Bill which would meet the exigencies of the case. In the first place, he must make an objection to the title of this Bill. From a Return moved for by the noble Lord the Member fur Arundel (Lord E. Howard), it appeared that the number of Protestant Dissenters of different denominations in the gaols throughout the United Kingdom amounted to only 12½ per cent of the whole number, and that in no one instance had any of them requested the attendance of the clergyman of his own denomination. All were perfectly well satisfied with the attendance of the regular gaol chaplain. That being so, the Bill before the House might be considered as exclusively a measure for Roman Catholic prisoners; and he thought it would have been more frank and candid to have given it a title similar to that borne by the Bill of the hon. Member for King's County. He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman had not styled his
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  measure a Roman Catholic Bill; for there were many people in the country, unaware of its provisions, who would never suppose that in a Bill with such a title as "Prison Ministers Bill" a dangerous principle like that involved in the measure could be found in every clause. During the time he had had the honour of holding a seat in that House few measures had come before them requiring more discussion and consideration on the second reading than that Bill demanded. The principle once admitted and affirmed, the details of the measure were of comparatively trifling importance. By the law as it stood prisoners not belonging to the Established Church were entitled to be visited by the minister of their own denomination at their own request. In no one instance had such a request met with a refusal. He had looked through the Petitions in favour of the Bill, and found that none of them came from prisoners or from officers of gaols. All were Petitions from Roman Catholic congregations, wishing, very naturally, that the ministers of their religion should be allowed to look alter prisoners in gaols. On the other hand, amongst the three hundred Petitions against the Bill some had come from the magistrates of several counties, including Middlesex, Leicestershire, East Sussex, and Cumberland. There was also a number of Petitions from visiting justices, who stated their opinion that there was no necessity for the measure, that it would lead to great confusion and irregularity, impose a new charge on the ratepayers of the country, and, more than that, conduce to the injury of the Established Church. He held in his hand a number of Reports from governors and chaplains of gaols. He should not trouble the House by going through them, but should confine himself to reading two from Bristol, the city which he represented, and to which there was a considerable influx of Irish. The governor of the gaol there stated that during the year ending the 1st of January 1863 there had been 725 prisoners in the prison under his charge, of whom 553 were members of the Church of England, seventy-six Roman Catholics, and ninety-six members of other denominations. Out of the whole number of Roman Catholics only two had requested to see their own priest, and they had been permitted to do so. During the last quarter of a century there had been no complaint on the sub-

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  ject from the Roman Catholics confined in that gaol, while, on the contrary, unsolicited requests had been made by Roman Catholic prisoners to attend the Protestant place of worship. The chaplain of the Bridewell in Bristol wrote to him to say that during the year 1862 the number of prisoners confined in that establishment was 1,194, of which 350 were Roman Catholics. Of the latter, only two had requested to see their priests. It was to be observed that a deduction for interested motives was to be made from even the small number of Roman Catholic prisoners that did ask for their clergyman; for about three years ago, a woman having sent for a priest, it turned out that the one who came to visit her was poor, and she expressed herself to the effect that it was not religious advice she wanted but something more solid. Looking through the Returns, he found that of all the Roman Catholic prisoners confined in the gaols of Great Britain only a very small proportion wished for the attendance of a priest. But it might be said, as it had been heretofore, that no deduction against such a Bill as that before the House should be drawn from that fact, inasmuch as prisoners were a class of persons not likely to ask for spiritual advice. Something was said on that point last year by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), for whose opinion he had a very high respect. However, he begged to remind the right hon. Gentleman and the House that the Protestant chaplains did not go into the prisons of the country to make proselytes. The commandments of God were binding on Roman Catholics and Protestants alike, and a man might receive instruction in those commandments without reference to points of controversy. The House were told that this was a Permissive Bill. He confessed that he had no predilection for permissive Bills. He always entertained a suspicion that the authors of such measures had a doubt on the subject themselves, and were endeavouring to introduce the thin end of the wedge. The permissive character of the Bill did not make it less objectionable. It would give rise to different modes of dealing with the same question in different parts of the country, and it would involve the visiting justices in endless controversies, on the one hand with the taxpayers objecting to be saddled with a new charge, and on the other with Roman Catholic congregations, urged on by
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  their priests. But his objections to the principle of the Bill rested on far higher ground. The right hon. Baronet had stated that the Bill contained no principle hostile to the Church of England. He begged to differ from him entirely. For the first time since the Reformation Parliament was called on to sanction the payment out of the public money of priests for every gaol in the United Kingdom. An alteration had already been made in that respect in the convict prisons; they were then asked for Roman Catholic chaplains for the county gaols, and the next step would be to ask for their appointment in all the workhouses. He was unwilling to say anything which might hurt the feelings of the Roman Catholics. He believed that, as a body, the Roman Catholic priests in this country served their flocks with zeal; but they were irresistibly, and he might say unconsciously, the agents of a foreign Power, and the tale of the doings under the influence of that Power in other countries was a sad one to tell. The state of those countries could not be better described than in the words used last year by the noble Lord at the head of the Government in the debate on the persecution of Protestants in Spain. The noble Lord then said —
  "However liberal the Roman Catholic laity may be, history tells us that wherever the Roman Catholic priesthood have been predominant the utmost amount of intolerance has always followed. Although in countries were they are in a minority they are constantly demanding not only toleration, but equality, in countries where they are predominant neither toleration nor equality contents them."
  He would appeal to the Members of the great Conservative party opposite, who in times of great difficulty had been the consistent supporters of the Protestant Church, and who had always shown the greatest jealousy of Roman Catholic aggression, and to the friends who sat around him, the upholders of civil and religious freedom, not to sanction a measure which, trivial though it might seem, would inevitably undermine the foundations of that liberty which free Protestant England had so long maintained. He was aware of the difficulties which always awaited an independent Member in opposing a Bill brought in with all the weight and authority of Her Majesty's Government, but the objections he entertained to that Bill were such as to override all such considerations. He therefore moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months, and confidently appealed to the House to reject,

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  on the second reading, a Bill which was uncalled for, unnecessary, and dangerous, and which in principle and detail was opposed to the opinion of the great majority of the people both in England and Scotland.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
  COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, it was with great diffidence that he rose upon that occasion, to second the Amendment as proposed by the hon. Member for Bristol, and he only did so because he considered that the question involved in the Bill was intimately connected with the question of civil and religious liberty. Though he felt he had a difficult task to perform, he hoped to acquit himself of it in such a manner as not to give any offence to those who differed from him, Therefore, he should say nothing that was repugnant to the feelings of Roman Catholics, but should base his objections to the measure on the ground that it was one which was not well received in the country, and because it would not work well in our gaols and houses of correction. A Bill of a similar character was brought into that House by the hon. and learned Member for the King's County last year. It was introduced in a most temperate speech, but it was afterwards withdrawn, his right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford having recommended the hon. Member not to press his Motion to a division, but to request that the Secretary of State for the Home Department should himself bring in a Bill to meet the grievance which he wished to remedy. In the measure which was proposed last year it was stated distinctly that there were certain large gaols in which there was a preponderance of Roman Catholics, and his hon. Friend referred to several gaols at Liverpool, Manchester, the vicinity of London, and elsewhere. But was Parliament to legislate for the whole of England and Scotland because in some few gaols there was a large number of Roman Catholic. It would be a very weak and reckless proceeding on their part to allow that permissive Bill of the right hon. Gentleman to pass through the House, when throughout the length and breadth of the land there were in nine gaol out of ten few, if any, Roman Catholics at all. No complaint had been made in any instance against the
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  visiting magistrates of the gaols of this country; no complaints had been made by Roman Catholic prisoners, and the House ought, therefore, to consider well the step they were about to take before they adopted the advice which the right hon. Gentleman had so distinctly given, to follow the example of Ireland, and be guided by what had been done there. The two cases were quite distinct, and could not be argued in the same breath; for while this was a Protestant country, in Ireland a large proportion of the population were Roman Catholics. The right hon. Gentleman had laid great stress upon the good effect which had followed the appointment of Roman Catholic chaplains in the army, but that was a totally different case. When those men were enlisted, and sent abroad to fight the battles of their country, they were taken away from their priests and their chapels; therefore the Government were bound in some sort to provide them with the spiritual consolation which they required and could not otherwise obtain in foreign countries. Arguments of that kind could not be applied in favour of the Bill which they were now discussing. Let them reflect upon how it would affect the discipline of the gaols. Were not the visiting justices unanimous in their endeavours to carry out that discipline? whereas if they threw among them that brand of dissension, no one could tell what would be its effect. One man might say, "Here are five or six Roman Catholics in the prison of which I am a visiting justice. I insist that you shall appoint a priest to look after their spiritual welfare;" others would be of opinion that such a number did not sanction the appointment, and there would be such diversity of opinion among the visiting justices of the various gaols as had never yet occurred. Moreover, in the Bill there was nothing whatever which provided for the manner in which the ministry of Roman Catholic chaplains in gaols was to be carried on. Were Roman Catholic chapels in gaols to be built and school rooms attached; and if so, at whose expense? Were they going to allow such things as that, or merely to pay the salary of the priest? The Government ought to look into the whole of the details of the question, and to state distinctly to the country whether they intended to sanction, not only Protestant but Roman Catholic chapels in gaols, because that was what they would have to do if they made up their minds to legislate in this direction. He

  415
  did not deny that there might be some grievance existing, but he thought the remedy might either be afforded by the action of the right hon. Gentleman himself or by a Bill authorizing the magistrates in the particular gaols in which there were numerous Roman Catholics to issue an order for the admission of Roman Catholic priests, so as not to bar, in any way, the intercourse between the prisoner and his priest; but if they went beyond that, and said that this permissive Bill was to have effect in all the gaols of England, it would prove a never-failing source of misery and contention. On the one hand, the measure was not a party one; on the other, it was. No doubt, the right hon. Gentleman had a difficult task to perform, but he had failed to arrive at a satisfactory result; for he (Colonel Barttelot) believed that not only would the Bill not work well, but it would not be satisfactory to the people generally, while it would be most unsatisfactory to the county magistracy. He hoped, therefore, that the House would reject it.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, he wished to say a few words in explanation of the vote which he was about to give on the question. The hon. Member who moved the rejection of the measure said that it was both uncalled for and unnecessary. He could not agree with either of those propositions. His hon. Friend, with his usual candour had admited that there was a grievance to be remedied. Now, a measure which dealt with a grievance that admitted of a remedy could neither be unnecessary, or uncalled for. No person, who was acquainted with the management of the county prisons, could be unaware of the difficulties which would attend the working of the Bill. Those difficulties had been alluded to by his hon. Friend, but it formed no reason why they ought not to attempt the remedy of a grievance, that there might be some subsequent inconvenience in dealing with questions as they arose. The Returns which had been presented in the last year, on the Motion of the noble Lord — and he was bound to say that the noble Lord deserved their thanks for obtaining those Returns, which were most valuable to the country, and had thrown great light on the subject; and he was confident that when the House had full information before it, it would never refuse to deal honestly and justly with any case—those Returns showed that in England and Wales there were 16 prisons which had above 50 Roman Ca-
  416
  tholic prisoners in them. The lowest number was 54, the highest 485, and the average was upwards of 130 in each. The special request clause of the Act of Parliament enabled those prisoners who desired it to ask for the attendance of a minister of their own faith; but it was not reasonable to expect that any gentleman, however kind-hearted he might be, or however warm might be his charitable feelings toward those of his own communion, would undertake the spiritual care of from 100 to 200 prisoners without remuneration. The Bill provided that where the magistrates thought it requisite they might appoint a Roman Catholic minister to attend on the Roman Catholic prisoners, and give him a reasonable remuneration. That was nothing but reasonable and just. His hon. Friend who spoke last thought it would be better to deal with each particular prison as necessity might arise, instead of legislating generally for all the prisons in the country. He though that would have been difficult; how should they have been able to set about it? Were they to say that where there were 100, 150, or 200 prisoners the Act should come into operation? or were they to go into cases with reference to the length of imprisonment and other details? The magistrates on the spot seemed to him to be the best able to judge of the necessities of the case; they would know whether it would be just and reasonable, under all the circumstances, that some pecuniary aid and recompense should be given. One of the strongest arguments that had been advanced against the Bill was, that the prisoners themselves did not want it. He might be wrong in his judgment of that class of the community, but he supposed if it were left to prisoners who professed to belong to the Established Church to say whether they would receive the visitations of the chaplain, they would take their hats off and say, "We would rather be excused; and if you would give us a little beer, we would like it much better." He suspected that such an indulgence would be more popular with the prisoners than a chaplain to do them good. It was urged that the only parties who asked for this were the fellow-countrymen of Roman Catholic prisoners outside the gaol. But surely the persons who were anxious to promote the reformation of prisoners were not the persons who were in gaols themselves, but benevolent and philanthropic

  417
  people outside of them, who wished that criminals during their incarceration should be taught to lend a better life when they were released, and who thought it best not to trust altogether to the deterring effect of the gibbet, the lash, and other agencies of that kind. Although he happened to differ from Roman Catholics in his view of religious matters, he could not see why, when there were such numbers of them in many of our prisons, they were to be shut out from that religious assistance which other prisoners had. He knew it might be said—and no man was more I sensible of it than he was—that Protestant chaplains generally, and he might say universally, would apply those general principles of our religion which, thank God, were common to them all, and would endeavour to reform these men without reference to proselytism. But they could not account for people's prejudice. If they took the strongest Protestant Member of that House and shut him up in a Roman Catholic prison—what would be his mode of receiving a Roman Catholic priest who visited him? The fairest rule by which to judge of the measure before them, as of every measure in human life, was—"Do unto others as you would be done to yourselves." That rule, applied to whatever case they would, whether round or square, never failed to bring them out right. He knew, that if he were to go into one of those Roman Catholic countries which the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) was said to have painted with a stronger brush than the hon. Member for Bristol professed himself able to use, he would much rather be visited by a minister of his own persuasion than he would be visited by the best Roman Catholic priest that country could produce; and he would do unto others as he would be done by, He saw no difficulties in the way of carrying out the mean sure that might not be met by mutual forbearance and by fairness on both sides— by the Roman Catholic party not pressing for too much, and by others meeting that party in a fair spirit. That was not the occasion in which to touch on the small matters of detail in the Bill; but when they tame into Committee, there might be a question as to the party in whom the appointment should be vested. As he understood the right hon. Gentleman, the appointment was to be vested in the visiting magistrates; but, as he read the Bill, it would rest with the magistrates in quarter sessions, and he thought that the latter
  418
  arrangement would be the better, as the visiting justices ought to be relieved of the responsibility. The Bill provided that an account was to be kept of the religion professed by each prisoner on entering prison, and from that record a list of the Roman Catholic prisoners might be given to the Roman Catholic chaplain, but he ought not to have any unnecessary access to the books of the prison. He could not have any hesitation in saying that the Bill met the grievance which even its opponents admitted to exist in a manner as little objectionable as possible; and therefore he, for one, should give the second reading of the Bill his hearty support.
  MR. SELWYNsaid, that although he had listened attentively to the speeches of the Home Secretary and the right hon. Member for Oxfordshire, he confessed he was yet at a loss to understand what was the practical grievance which they sought to make the foundation of a Bill involving in its principle such important innovations; and they had not succeeded in showing that it would be an actual remedy for the grievance, assuming it to exist. So far as the speech of the right hon. Baronet went, it seemed to be rather an argument in support of some minute verbal alteration of what he termed the special request clause of the existing Act, than an argument and a reason for introducing a measure of that description. If there were any defects in the wording of the special request clause—and if they were not removed, as he believed they were, actually in point of practice—such defects might be remedied without such an extensive innovation as that proposed by this measure. With respect to the point urged by the Member for Oxfordshire, that some provision ought to be made for the remuneration of Roman Catholic priests for their ministrations to prisoners, unless be much mistook what took place in that House last year, those who promoted the Bill then under discussion declared, one and all, that it was not their object to procure any such remuneration, and that its absence was not at all the ground of their grievance. He wished to state briefly what appeared to him to be some of the most grave objections to this Bill. And, first, it appeared to be at one and the same time opposed to the rights and privileges of the Established Church and also to the right and the independent exercise of liberty of conscience. It was quite true, as the right hon. Baronet had said, that they must distinguish be-

  419
  tween the man who was a free agent and the man who was subject to imprisonment. He fully admitted that; but although by law they were entitled to imprison the body, the law gave them no power over the will and the conscience; and, accordingly, the special request clause left the wilt and the conscience perfectly free; and, from all the inquiry he had made, he did not believe that any substantial difficulty had arisen in its application. On the contrary, whenever the individual will had been exercised, full liberty had been allowed, and no instance to the contrary had been adduced. Our prisons had hitherto been conducted, so far as religious ministrations were concerned, in accordance with the principles of the Constitution; and one of the main features of that Constitution was the parochial system. Under that system there had been appointed in each parish a regularly-ordained minister of the National Church, and to him was confided the cure of the souls of the whole population within his parish. Upon that system there was engrafted the principle of toleration, and any one might dissent from the doctrine and the discipline of the Established Church, choose his own minister, and refuse to take part in the services and ordinances of the Church. That he was free to do in the exercise of his individual will, and in accordance with the dictates of his own conscience. The same right had always been conceded to prisoners; but that was the first time a proposal had been made for the appointment of ministers of a denomination opposed to the Established Church, without regard to individual liberty of conscience, and that whether the persons to whom they were to minister wished it or not. What would be said if a Bill were introduced enacting, that in case of there being a certain number of Dissenters or Roman Catholics in a parish, the court of quarter sessions or some other similar body should have the power to appoint for them a Roman Catholic priest or a Dissenting minister? And yet the principle involved would be precisely the principle of the Bill, Let them apply the same rule to prisoners as to the free, and let both have the same right to the individual exercise of conscience. By the Bill they took it away; for without consulting the prisoners, without their making a request, if it appeared from the register that there were a certain number of any persuasion in gaol, the visiting justices
  420
  were, if they thought fit, to appoint a person to be their minister, whether they desired it or not. There was no precedent for anything of the kind, and the principle was entirely new. He objected also to the operation of the Act being made in a great measure dependent on what had been called a creed register, as he thought that the mode by which it was sought to ascertain a prisoner's religions persuasion was objectionable. It was true that prisoners were asked to state their religious persuasion on entering the gaol; but he apprehended that, practically, that was an extremely fallacious test, and that it would be much wiser to determine the matter by a prisoner's request, after he had had time for consideration, than by a statement made at a time when a prisoner might have many reasons to desire to conceal his identity or to disguise his opinions. He thought, therefore, that if the Bill were to be adopted, the register would be a bad basis to act upon. There was another serious objection to the Bill, which had not been adverted to. In whom was the appointment to be vested? [Sir GEORGE GREY: The same justices who appoint the chaplain in quarter sessions.] That altered his objection in degree, but not in substance. The Bill proposed an alteration of the law to be carried into effect by a vote to be given from time to time at quarter sessions. That was giving a legislative power to persons who were incompetent to exercise it, and beyond that, it was giving it to persons who were not in the least degree desirous of exercising or of possessing it. They were told last year that the Bill then before them had met with the unanimous approval of the visiting justices; but the numerous petitions that had been presented against the present measure showed that the visiting justices did not desire to possess the power with which it was proposed to invest them. Besides introducing into quarter sessions an element of discord, the Bill, if passed, would lead to there being one law in one county and another in another; and even in the same county the law would vary, from time to time, with the majority at the quarter sessions. There was another objection to the Bill. Already there existed sufficient grounds of dispute and dissension with respect to the appointment of justices, but this measure would introduce into those disputes the element of religious controversy, and so

  421
  make things worse than ever. It was impossible, in considering the question, to avoid referring to the circumstances out of which the Bill had arisen. He regarded it as one of the unhappy instances of an attempt to compromise a question which did not admit of such a mode of treatment. No doubt, its appearance was due to the discussion which took place last Session on the measure introduced by the hon. and learned Member for the King's County; but he ventured to say that nothing which then occurred laid the slightest foundation fur such important innovations as those embodied in the Bill. The real object was to compromise the question raised by the Bill of the hon. and learned Member for the King's County. It had been admitted by the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary, with his usual candour, that though the present measure was applicable to every sect and denomination of Dissenters, its operation would be almost exclusively confined to Roman Catholics. Now, for his own part, he trusted he had never said one word which could give just cause of offence to his Roman Catholic fellow-subjects; but, in discussing such a question as that before the House, he might surely he permitted to repeat their own statements, and use their own language. The Roman Catholics admitted that they possessed an almost perfect discipline and organization, and that they were subject to a foreign ecclesiastical Power. It was impossible to lose sight of these things when considering the measure. Bearing them in mind, then, he said the real object of this Bill was to accomplish that which had long been the desire of the Roman Catholic Priests— namely, to give them a status, recognised by Act of Parliament, such as they had not hitherto enjoyed. Everybody knew the memories they cherished of the former position of their Church, and the hopes they expressed of its restoration. The question really raised by the Bill was, in truth, substantially the same as that which was discussed in connection with the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill and with the Roman Catholic Charities Bill. It was idle to say that the Bill was merely permissive, when it placed the power of deciding whether it should be acted upon or not in such bodies as those he had described. The measure was, in fact, nothing more than a provision for Roman Catholic prisoners, None of the other dissenting communities desired any alteration of the law—a fact
  422
  which, of itself, constituted a strong objection to the Bill, Though brought forward ostensibly for the benefit of all, the measure was repudiated by all except the members of one Church. It thus did not meet the exigencies of the case, but left the grievance, if one really existed, which he denied, in full force. He was bound to say that, in his opinion, the Bill introduced last Session by the hon. and learned Member for King's County was more fair and more candid. It openly avowed that the nomination of the priests was to be vested in the Roman Catholic bishops. Under this measure would the priests be nominated by anybody else? Was it possible that the visiting justices or the magistrates assembled in quarter sessions could do anything in such a matter except upon the nomination of the Roman Catholic bishops? This Bill was, in truth, nothing more than the Bill of last year in disguise, seeking to do indirectly what its predecessor fairly sought to do directly—namely, to establish, as paid ecclesiastical officers of the State, certain priests who were to be nominated by the Roman Catholic bishops. He objected to it because it was inconsistent, with the position of the Established Church, and with the liberty of will and conscience; because it gave the power of altering the law to persons who neither desired nor sought to possess it, but amongst whom it would introduce religions controversies; because it would cause the law, when so altered, to vary in different counties; and because its certain effect would be to give to the Roman Catholic priests a status which they had long wished for, but which was inconsistent with our Protestant constitution.
  LORD EDWARD HOWARDsaid, that Roman Catholic prisoners felt deeply aggrieved by the existing law on the subject, although their complaints did not reach the quarters visited by the hon. and learned Gentleman, possibly because they feared they should meet with no redress. The hon. Member for the King's County deserved thanks for introducing this subject to the House, as did also the Home Secretary for this measure. As an humble Roman Catholic Member, and speaking to some extent possibly for other Roman Catholics, and especially, he hoped, for the Roman Catholic poor, he was grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for having brought the measure before the house. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr.

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  Selwyn) had spoken of the Bill ns an important ecclesiastical measure, but he differed from him. He thought it was move in the nature of a police measure, which the Home Secretary, being Minister of police and justice for this country, had most appropriately taken in hand, and which he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would bring to a happy conclusion. That such a Bill was necessary had been affirmed by some of the greatest authorities in Parliament. Its necessity had been acknowledged by no less an authority than the noble Lord at the head of the Government, who, with the sound English sense and the happy urbanity of manner for which he was so eminently distinguished, had often said, that if they wanted to reform a criminal, or to get at a man's heart, they must use the language to which he was accustomed, and which in his youth had an effect upon him. Then there was another right hon. Gentleman whose loss not the House only, but the whole country deplored. He meant Sir George Cornewall Lewis. That right hon. Gentleman had once made use of this expression, that he could not see how on principle that which was fair in Ireland was inadmissible in England. There was another right hon. Gentleman of very great experience, the right hon Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who by bringing in the Bill declared his opinion that the law ought to be altered. They had also the testimony on this subject of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), and that happy mixture of authority combined to show that the measure ought to receive the approval of the House. Hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to think that the Act of George IV. for regulating the discipline of prisons should never be changed. That Act was passed at a time when punishment was more like revenge than anything else—when reformation was little known and less thought of. That was a time when it was death to break down the bank of a reservoir to get at the fish inside it, or to kill a sheep for the sake of its skin. But they lived in happier and more enlightened times, and he trusted the principles of the present day would not only be persevered in, but improved, as he believed they would be by the passing of the Bill. The late Lord Herbert, in a department where the system of red tape was particularly supposed to prevail—namely, the army—succeeded in doing away with all
  424
  distinction between the attendances of Protestant and Catholic chaplains. The experience in military prisons had been spoken of disparagingly, but most unjustly, as appeared from Sir Joshua Jebb's Report, in which he expressed a high sense of the manner in which visitors, superintendents, governors, chaplains, and others, in the zealous discharge of their duties, had contributed to the generally satisfactory state of discipline maintained in military prisons. There was no interference between one set of religionists and another when both were properly cared for. Both parties kept within their own limits. Then there were the Irish prisons. Who ever heard of complaints about conflicting interests in Irish prisons? During the last winter life had hardly been safe in the metropolis, and we had been occupied in dealing with the most dangerous classes in the community. Why should we not imitate the Irish system, which had been so successful in maintaining order and reform? Further, he went to the Colonies, and there he found a mixed system of Roman Catholic and Church of England chaplains prevailing, with the greatest possible harmony. He ventured to say there would be no confusion under the Bill of the right hon. Baronet. He was sorry to say he had some complaints to make on the part of his unfortunate co-religionists. Roman Catholic prisoners had to make a special request if they wished to see their priest. Now, many prisoners would not do so, because they feared, that if they did, they would not in other respects be treated the same as the Protestant prisoners; many, too, were ignorant that they might send for their priest, and many abstained from preferring the request because they were reluctant to give trouble. In some prisons they were more equitably dealt with than in others. In some the law was not stretched, perhaps, but every consideration was shown within the limits of the law; in others more strict conduct was pursued. Although a prisoner was asked when he entered the gaol whether he was a Roman Catholic, he was never afterwards treated as such. In one prison where care was taken to inform the prisoners who were Roman Catholics that they could see a priest if they wished, the priest had seen twice as many of the Catholic inmates as in a neighbouring prison where there were three times the number, but where it was not the practice to tell the Roman Catholic prisoners that they might see a

  425
  priest if they chose. One prisoner, who had been seventeen limes in prison, and therefore had need of spiritual advice if ever any man had, stated that he never knew that he could see a priest until by accident he had met one in the corridor of the prison. Another Roman Catholic prisoner, who had refused to attend the Protestant service, although supposed to be dying, was left unaware that he might see a priest if he so desired; but a magistrate meeting a Roman Catholic was the means of sending a priest to him. The man did not die, and he afterwards stated that one of the chief authorities of the prison, on being asked by the prisoner why he had not told him he might see a priest, said it was not his business to tell him. Was it not obvious that where the priest was most wanted he was the least likely to be sent for? There were many little irksomenesses to which the Catholic prisoners were subject. In one instance a prayer-book was taken from a Roman Catholic prisoner, and never returned. There was sometimes another advantage taken of a Roman Catholic prisoner, who, upon being asked whether he desired to see a priest, answered in the negative; his answer was taken to imply a definite resolution, and not that he simply did not desire to see a priest at that time. In one prison which he could name, not a hundred miles from the House of Commons, a Roman Catholic prisoner's reply, that he did not want to see a priest, was taken to mean that he desired to become Protestant. He had seen it stated that a different practice had been adopted at Wakefield when all the prisoners were assembled, and the system was found to work well. Hon. Gentlemen, no doubt, desired that Roman Catholic prisoners should enjoy equal physical advantages with their Protestant fellow prisoners; but when the Roman Catholic refused to attend chapel, he was locked up in his cell during the period of service, and thus had to undergo an additional seven hours' solitary confinement during the week; and in some cases such confinement was extended from Saturday night until Monday morning. It was no wonder that under such circumstances some Roman Catholic prisoners should pretend to become proselytes, and, after leaving prison, should curse the hypocrisy they had been urged to practice. The measure referred to the moral welfare of no less than 3,000 persons, confined in the borough and county gaols of this coun-
  426
  try, and therefore was entitled to receive the fairest consideration at the hands of the House. It was said that Roman Catholic prisoners did not want to see any priests; but what was the reason? In one London prison it was thought that the law would allow some little latitude being taken, and that a Roman Catholic priest should be allowed to accompany an officer to all the prisoners belonging to that Church at the season of performing their Easter duties; and the mere fact of it being announced that a priest was there, raised the number of those who attended his ministrations to forty or fifty, instead of twenty, the usual number. It was, however, found that the law did not sanction the practice, and it was discontinued. In another prison, when the inmates were assembled for service, the number increased from one to sixty; but the Solicitor General giving an opinion against the legality of the practice, the assembly was not continued, and the numbers seeking the aid of the priest diminished. He had a petition from the Roman Catholic priest attending the Liverpool gaols, who stated that although in Kirkdale Prison out of 453 prisoners, 141 were Roman Catholics; and in Walton Gaol, out of 888, there were 485 of that faith; yet, notwithstanding all the facilities which were afforded him, be only saw 120 in the two prisons. If hon. Gentlemen wished to burden the country with the expense of a larger number of criminals than might otherwise be, they would reject the Bill; but if they were desirous of acting upon principles of justice as well as of expediency, they would give their support to a Bill which would place one class of prisoners upon an equality with others. He had heard that the aid of Roman Catholic priests had been invoked by the prison authorities to govern a refractory prisoner; and in the case of one old woman, who evinced symptoms of madness, the Protestant chaplain recommended, and the doctor ordered, that she should be allowed to occupy her mind by attending the Protestant service. Where priests were brought into communication with prisoners of their faith it was admitted by the authorities that order was better maintained and dicipline better enforced. The Irish system succeeded because spiritual advisers were able to control the feelings of the prisoners, and why should not Irish prisoners have equal justice in this part of the United Kingdom? By declining to

  427
  pass the Bill the House would take upon itself a great responsibility. It was a permissive Bill only, and to reject it would be to fetter the discretion of all justices hereafter who might wish to promote the spiritual welfare of the Roman Catholics under their charge. Catholics were equal with Protestants in the eye of the law, and why, therefore, should they not be treated as equal in a mutter of such vital importance to their conciences? Methodists, Catholics, Unitarians, and members of the Established Church had served together upon the local relief committees in Lancashire, and in acting together had learnt to respect each other's prejudices. He hoped that the soothing of religions hostility which had thus resulted might spread from Lancashire into the remotest parts of this kingdom, and he congratulated the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary upon being the one to propose a beneficial measure to the House of Commons, upon whom must lie the deep responsibility of rejecting it.
  MR. PERCY WYNDHAMsaid, that the House ought to be very careful how it recognised the endowment of other churches and seets than the Church of England, because that was the principle contained in the Bill. The analogy drawn from the appointment and payment of Presbyterian and Roman Catholic chaplains in the army did not apply. The provision of those chaplains was an entirely exceptional arrangement, because the State was bound to provide for the religious instruction of those who, entering its service, placed themselves beyond the reach of the religious advantages which they might otherwise have enjoyed. But gaols were generally situated within easy access of ministers of all denominations, and the prisoners were not debarred from the visits of such ministers as they might wish to see. Did anybody suppose, that if Roman Catholic priests were admitted into the gaols, they would be satisfied with that concession? They would want at chapel in which to perform their service, and be doubted whether they would consent to use the chapel of the gaol. The Roman Catholic bishops in synod in Ireland had resolved, that upon the erection or re-erection of any gaol chapel, the Roman Catholic chaplain should insist on a certain portion of it being set apart exclusively for Roman Catholic services; and he had received a letter from the Protestant chaplain at Naas, stating that he had been
  428
  ousted from the chapel of the gaol, and to that day he performed the services of the Established Church in a room in the old part of the prison, while the Roman Catholic chaplain reigned supreme in the chapel. At present, in this country, they were tolerably free from religious dissension; but if the Bill became law, he predicted, that considering the strong feelings which existed against the Papacy in the middle classes, they would not long remain free from such dissension and mutual distrust.
  MR. LYSLEYsaid, that one of the main points in the Bill had not been at all noticed in the previous argument. By the third section the magistrates had the power of nominating a Roman Catholic priest as chaplain, and to order a remuneration for his services; but, looking to the end of the clause, it was perfectly immaterial whether they appointed one or not, since the Roman Catholic priest could intrude himself into the gaol, if admitted by the governor, or even any of his subordinates.
  COLONEL WILSON PATTENsaid, that as one of the representatives of the county in which there was, he believed, the largest proportion of Roman Catholics, he was anxious to do away with the erroneous impression that no grievance had been complained of under the present system. He felt bound to say that in Lancashire for years past he had received from all classes of his Roman Catholic neighbours representations of the hardships to which prisoners were subjected as the law stood, and he thought that these representations required the serious consideration of the House. It had been shown that the special request clause was exercised by very few prisoners, and he believed the cause to be that these prisoners came chiefly from the dregs of the people, and, whether Protestants or Roman Catholics, there was a disinclination to call in the services of any minister of religion whatever. There was no doubt that the spiritual wants of Roman Catholic prisoners were less attended to than those of any other class of the community, and he intended to vote for the second reading of the Bill with the sole object that that grievance should be remedied. He was not at all blind to the inconveniences which might arise from the first clause of the Bill, but he would deal with that in Committee, and would at that moment affirm the principle of affording to Roman Catholic prisoners rather more prospect of being reached by their spiritual

  429
  advisers than existed under the present law.
  MR. BAINESsaid, an appeal had been made to the body of Dissenters and those who specially advocated religious liberty for their support to the Bill. He was strongly attached to the principles of Protestantism and to the voluntary principle, both with regard to education and religion, But notwithstanding, having anxiously considered the measure, he had found it impossible to deny the justice of the principle on which it was based. There were two plain principles on which the Bill rested. The first, that is was the duty and interest of the State to see that prisoners under confinement should receive moral and religious instruction. And next, respect for the rights of conscience, which he believed all, whatever might be their religious opinions, were desirous to exhibit. Well, then, there was no possibility of prisoners providing such aid for themselves. It must therefore be provided for them by others. It would be a mockery to offer to Roman Catholics the instruction of a Protestant minister. If there were, then, a sufficient number of prisoners in any gaol, professing that religion, to require the devotion of all the time or nearly the time of a priest, there was a just claim for the appointment of a chaplain, and a just claim that he should be paid.
  MR. DISRAELI: Sir, I am unwilling for a moment to stand between the House and their natural impatience for a division. I will do so only for a few minutes, and I do so from a conviction that the decision on this question is one at which the House ought not to arrive in an impatient spirit. I believe the country will not be satisfied if it thinks that we have come to a conclusion on this question without that due deliberation which the gravity of the subject demands. Sir, I admit, the objections to the Bill are not of a light character; but, on the other hand, the arguments in its favour recommend themselves, not merely on the ground of expediency, but of justice. Therefore, I would claim, from all who take part in this debate, the exercise of a spirit of forbearance. There are two great objections which have been urged against this Bill. One is, that it affects injuriously the status of the Church of England. Sir, if I thought this measure had even a tendency to impair the authority of the Church of England I should oppose it. In this age, when the elements of government are daily
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  diminishing, when the power of governing nations is every day weakening, it would be most unwise to impair the influence of an institution that has contributed in so eminent and beneficial a manner to the formation of that English character which, after all, is the best security for the preservation of all we most value. And, Sir, I cannot conceal from my own conviction that the time may come, and is even nearer than many imagine, when, in our peril and perplexity, we may find a guide and guardian in that institution, which by the services thus rendered to us will establish fresh claims to the confidence and gratitude of the country. Happily, in my opinion, for this country, the still existing privileges of the Church of England are great and manifold; but this should always be remembered—that the privileges of the Church of England, entirely in theory, and greatly still in practice, embody and represent popular rights. That is the source of their strength. I cannot myself see what popular right is represented by the Church of England exercising an arbitrary power to prevent the captive, who is not in her communion, from enjoying the consolations of his religion. Sir, I say that, on the contrary, such a policy is injurious to the Church of England It is the interest of the Church of England—it is the interest of all ecclesiastical institutions, and, indeed, of all religious bodies— to favour the development of the religious principle—to cherish, encourage, and nurture those spiritual influences which hitherto have controlled and regulated man—
  "Placed on this isthmus of a middle state,
  A being darkly wise and rudely great."
  I am told in this instance that there is a wider and deeper objection, if such there can be, against this Bill, than that it is antagonistic to the interests of the Church of England. We are told by the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment that he looks upon the measure as dangerous to the Protestant spirit of this country. Sir, there are many Gentlemen in this House who are in the habit of enlarging upon and exalting the Protestant spirit of England. In my opinion, it is not easy for them to use language that can adequately describe the strength and power of that spirit. It is fervent, it is profound, it is general; and, of all the subjects of Her Majesty, the Roman Catholic subjects of the Queen are the last who ought to have a doubt as to the power and strength of that spirit. Why, it is only recently

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  that they have had conclusive experience of the power of the Protestant spirit of this country. It is a fact that at this moment there is only one Member of the House of Commons among the numerous representatives of Great Britain—who is a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and that one is returned to the House by the traditionary friendship of his neighbours, bearing as he does an illustrious name, and being the member of a family of which all Englishmen, whether Protestant or Roman Catholic, are proud. Of what is this remarkable state of things a consequence? It exists because those who advised the Roman Catholics of this country took a course into the merits of which I am not now disposed to enter, but which was supposed by the Protestant people of this country openly to outrage or cunningly to circumvent, the Protestant feeling of this country. Well, then, are we to fear for the Protestant interests of this country if the Bill now brought forward should be sanctioned by the House? What does it propose to do? It proposes, in the appointment of Roman Catholic chaplains, to trust to the discretion of the natural leaders of that people who, it may be from exaggerated, but certainly from profound and sincere convictions respecting the conduct of the Roman Catholic party, have returned so many Parliaments to Westminster in which there has been only one Roman Catholic Member. Why, if there be any class of men who can be said to faithfully represent the feelings of the country, it is that composed of the magistrates in counties, cities, boroughs, and corporations. They must be the chief men of their districts, and they must adequately represent the feelings of the country; and who can suppose that under this influential representation proceedings will be originated or sanctioned which can possibly misrepresent the people of England, or betray the Protestant sentiment of the country? I cannot share in any apprehension on the subject. And when we are told, as we have just been told, that one of the objections to this Bill is that it throws on the magistrates assembled at quarter sessions, and on similar occasions, the weighty responsibility of considering the question of the appointment of a Roman Catholic chaplain to a gaol, I must say that I cannot understand why men who have been appointed magistrates—why men intrusted with the
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  exalted duties of such an office—should not bear the burden of such a responsibility. Are we to be told that in the case of those gentlemen that dignity is not to be attended with responsibility? I think, therefore, that whether we look at the influence of the Bill on the status of the Church of England, or whether we look at its probable influence on the Protestant spirit of this country, or on the Protestant character of our institutions, it is but forming a mean conception of that Church, it is but taking a poor view of that spirit, if we suppose that the Bill before us can possibly endanger the one or diminish the other. That is an opinion which I cannot for a moment entertain or sanction. we must look at this Bill in its real character, and not in the light of those visionary apprehensions which have been raised by some hon. Gentlemen, and which are not only not sanctioned by fact, but, I think, cannot be entertained with a due regard for the real interests of the Church. What is this Bill? As my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxfordshire said, it is a Bill to do an act of justice. It is said that the Roman Catholic prisoner has never required the assistance which this Bill proposes to extend to him, but the objections which have been raised to it on that ground appear to me to be founded on a complete fallacy. This is a Bill to do justice, not merely to the Roman Catholic prisoner, but to the Protestant community. On what possible ground, after having adopted those principles with regard to the treatment of criminals which have been confirmed by a long series of legislation, can you justify it to Protestant England that there shall be in the gaols of the country a considerable portion of the penal population whom you will take no care to reform, and whom you are prepared periodically to let loose to ravage society, unchanged by the influences of religion? Great fault has been found with this Bill because it is a permissive Bill. But the same speakers who have urged that objection tell you at the same time that the circumstances of the case, even if the policy of the measure were admitted, only require a very limited application of it. They say that in all the gaols of the country interference only is necessary in some eight or ten. It is a permissive Bill, therefore, because the evil to be remedied is limited in its character. You cannot make it compulsory on courts of quarter sessions to appoint Roman

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  Catholic chaplains to gaols where there are no Roman Catholic prisoners. It is admitted that the grievance, though anomalous and vexatious, is limited, and by this Bill you meet it in that practical manner in which all our legislation is carried on. At the same time, you secure that limited application which alone is required, while you avoid that partial legislation which is always a blot. You have a Bill brought forward which is general, and that is the basis of all sound legislation, but practically, by being permissive, you have made the application limited, because the necessity of the case so requires it. You have provided a remedy for the evil and inconvenience, while you have not violated the sound principle that legislation should be general and universal. Thai there are no Dissenting criminals who require the consolations of their particular pastors is a fact of which the hon. Member for Sheffield may be justly proud [Mr. HADFIELD: Hear, hear!], and I congratulate him upon it; but if I were a Dissenting criminal, I think I should require the consolation of my minister; and no doubt, when this Bill has passed, we shall find that the privilege which it confers will be exercised. I hope the House will pass the measure. It is a measure in harmony with all the legislation which this House of late years has sanctioned on these subjects. I am told that it introduces a new and dangerous principle. Where, I ask, is the new principle? The principle on which the Bill is founded is one which has been long acknowledged, and which has for several years been acted upon. If the status of the Church of England be imperilled by the presence of Roman Catholic chaplains in a gaol, surely it will be equally imperilled by their presence in a regiment. If the presence of a Roman Catholic chaplain in an English gaol be dangerous, surely it is equally dangerous in an Irish gaol? It is too late to take such high ground, and put forward such objections. The speech of the hon. Member who moved this Amendment would have been an excellent speech for the time before Catholic Emancipation or the repeal of the Test and Corporation Act, but it will not do now. In my opinion the strength of the Church of England does not depend upon devices of that kind, or upon the policy recommended by the hon. Gentleman, but on deeper grounds and on principles which are of a much more enduring nature. The
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  privileges of the Church of England represent popular rights, and so long as they represent popular rights national sympathy will always rally round that great institution. The power of the Church of England and the Protestant feeling of the country will not be supported and maintained by a course of action inconsistent with all our previous legislation, which by placing obstacles in the way of ameliorating the character and condition of our criminal population must produce consequences injurious to society at large.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir I am unwilling to detain the House; but as I have been much alluded to in the course of the debate, I am anxious to state shortly the grounds on which, in full consistency with what I have done and said on former occasions, I shall give my hearty support to the second reading of this Bill. If this question were that which it has been represented to be by many hon. Gentlemen who have taken part in the debate, a question between Protestants and Roman Catholics, I, who am as sincere a Protestant as any who oppose the Bill, and who, in a fair and honourable sense, am as much an anti-Catholic as they, should undoubtedly oppose a measure which I thought inconsistent with the interests of the Protestant Church. But my view of the Bill is entirely different. I think it is a question, not between Protestants and Roman Catholics but between sound sense and most respectable and honourable prejudice. There are no prejudices which are more lasting in men's minds than those founded on the perversion of just and honourable and reasonable opinions. The perversion of the best is often productive of the worst results. I was in hopes that all prejudices on these matters had been dispelled some thirty-four years ago, when this House resolved, after the longest deliberation, and in consequence of discussion lasting for years, that the distinction of religious opinions should make no distinction in civil, political, or social condition. Parliament, when it repealed the penal laws, when it placed the Roman Catholic in all respects on a footing of equality with the Protestant, affirmed substantially the principle that no danger was to be apprehended to the Protestant faith from the intercourse of Catholic priests with any part of the community. We have affirmed the principle that there is no danger to the Protestant religion in the access of Roman

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  Catholic priests to those who in this and the other House of Parliament are intrusted with the duty of voting on matters which most deeply affect the welfare and destiny of the nation. We see no danger to the Protestant Church from a Catholic priest having intercourse with officers and soldiers who bear arms in the service of the country, and on whom the destinies of the nation may depend. Are we, then, to be called on to say that there will he danger to the Protestant Church and the Protestant religion if a Roman Catholic priest have access, not to men within these walls or who bear arms in the service of the country, but to men confined in a prison suffering for their crimes, and whom it is the duty of the State, if possible, to reform? To reject this measure would be to act in opposition to everything which has been the foundation of the policy of this country for the last thirty-four years. It has been well argued that it would be a reversal of the policy which has been pursued in regard to the improvement of the condition of the criminal population. There is nothing which has more occupied the attention of men than the moans of reforming the criminal during the period of the confinement awarded to him in consequence of his delinquency. And are Catholic prisoners to be less the objects of our attention than Protestant? Or is it that you consider the Catholic so hopeless a criminal that nothing can redeem him, and therefore you would let him go out of prison in the same moral and spiritual condition as he entered it? That is not the opinion of men who have devoted themselves to the moral improvement of the criminal. But then, it is argued, he can have the advice of the Protestant clergyman. But will any man, who knows anything of human nature, tell me that the advice of the Protestant clergyman would be as effective as that of the minister of his own religion? What are his earliest impressions? He may forget the precepts of good, but he will not forget the aversion instilled into his mind when he was told that there was something in the Protestant religion which he should avoid as inconsistent with his salvation. Well, that impression will remain in the mind of the most abandoned, and when the Protestant clergyman comes to give advice, he has two things to do—two enemies to overcome— first of all, the dislike inherent in the mind of the Roman Catholic to anything that proceeds from a minister not of his
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  own faith; and next, the wickedness and irreligion which have grown upon him in the course of his life. Give him, then, the benefit of having advice and consolation from a man who approaches him with all the advantages derived from early association and the doctrines which were inculcated into his mind when he was most capable of receiving religious impressions. But then, I am told, there are complaints. Yes, but complaints which are founded on facts are more powerful than complaints which are founded on prejudice. We know there are a great many Catholic prisoners who cannot have access to ministers of their own religion. We are told they do not ask for them. Yes, but the man who wants religious instruction most is the very man least likely to ask for it. The very fact that he does hot ask for it is the most conclusive proof that he stands in need of it. You might as well say that an ignorant boy at school did not ask for a lesson. Why, the more he stood in need of instruction the more he would like to go to play and avoid his lessons. So it is with the criminal: the more he needs instruction the less likely is he to ask for it; and the religions instruction which he would receive from a minister of his own faith is that which is most likely to go to his heart, to improve his mind, and to send him out of prison a better man than he was before. There is something, I think, ungenerous in endeavouring to take advantage of the compulsory seclusion of a criminal in order to sap the faith in which he was born. I am for all being Protestants; and if it were possible to conceive such a thing that every Roman Catholic in the United Kingdom should rise up to-morrow a Protestant, I should say that it would be a blessed thing for the country. But do not let us attempt making proselytes by taking advantage of the seclusion of criminals in a prison to which they have been consigned as well for improvement as for punishment. I hope, then, the House will not go back, as I think they would do by assenting to the rejection of this Bill, from that course of policy which we have so long pursued, but that hon. Members will feel, that so far from the Bill being a danger, it will be a source of strength to the Church of England, by removing a subject of obloquy and reproach.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid: I am anxious to vindicate the vote I am about to give upon this question from the reproach of being the result of prejudice and of ig-

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  norance The noble Lord has just told us that he is a strong Protestant, and I believe the people of this country feel that they have a great security in having the noble Lord at the head of the Administration. But we are not about to legislate for the convenience of one Administration or another, and for such a purpose to pass any law, would be in violation of the great principles on which our Constitution is founded—while we are, at the same time, prepared to secure to Roman Catholic prisoners that wide latitude of religious freedom which exists in this country. The immediate question now at issue is not whether the Church of England shall be shorn of her privileges or her possessions. It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire, has never understood the Church except as a wealthy corporation beside the State. He thinks that all our attachment to the Church of England is an attachment to her wealth and power. He gives us no credit for believing that she is the depository of religious truth. In speaking of the Church, never once does he attribute to her that quality which is her only title to the possessions which she holds—her only title to the position which she occupies—her being the sanctuary and exponent of that Protestant and Christian truth to which the people of this country are attached. I value the Church of England not for her wealth and her position; I value her for the principles of which she is the exponent, for the religion of which she is the sanctuary; and I am not to be diverted from acting according to my conviction by any loose imputation of prejudice. What is that word "prejudice," thus used, but a nick-name for a sincere opinion—nay, worse, but a nick-name for an honest faith? I believe that throughout this discussion there has been a strange oblivion of the fact that the opposition of the people of England to this Bill is founded upon a conviction, that the teaching of the Church of England is the true teaching of the ancient Catholic Church, and is therefore preferable to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, which is comparatively of very modern origin. Look at one of the facts which we discover in an examination of this question. It appears that the Roman Catholic prisoners in this country are, in proportion to the number of our Roman Catholic population, more than double the prisoners of the Church of England, and exceed, by a
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  still larger proportion, the prisoners of other denominations; and yet we are told that we are prejudiced if we think that the religion which has produced the fewer criminals is best adapted for reformatory-purposes. I do not, however, desire to force upon any Roman Catholic prisoner the ministration of a clergyman of another Church, however true I may believe the doctrines of that other Church to be, or however pure I know is the morality which teaches. But in voting against this Bill, I refuse to debar the Roman Catholic prisoner from access to the teachings of that Church; and I do so for his own sake as well as for the sake of the community, which is deeply interested in his reformation. This may be a prejudice; but it is a prejudice that reaches wide and deep through the people of this country—it is a prejudice on which your Constitution is founded — it is a prejudice under which Her Majesty and her family are, thank God, entitled to the throne of these realms. It is unwise to touch these great questions, these deep feelings, these mighty truths, in a spirit of levity; and I must observe that you will not induce the people of England to adopt what you call measures of amelioration and of charity, by violating their convictions. You are so full of charity for the Roman Catholic priest—for I say it is not for the Roman Catholic prisoner—that you are ready to cast imputations upon the loyal people of England— upon that Protestant people, who by their virtues have for generations maintained a free and peaceful state, while Roman Catholic despotisms, and constitutional governments, and Transatlantic republics, have been shaken to their foundations, and scattered by the evil passions which prevail among mankind when not corrected by the pure influences of such a religion as that which has blessed England for ages. But let us look at the substance of this proposal. For my part, I do not believe that this is an honest measure. It is assumed that a grievance exists. None, however, has been proved. The noble Lord the Member for Arundel (Lord E. Howard) has put forward some complaints of the treatment of Roman Catholic prisoners—he makes allegations, some very few of which he says are set forth in one Petition, but in no one instance has he ventured to give the name or the place from whence those supposed grievances have been alleged. Now, I do not wish to dispute the veracity of the

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  noble Lord. I do not wish to infer that the noble Lord has conveyed to us any information other than that he has received. Nevertheless, I think I have a right to question his facts, when find the noble Lord is so careful in withholding the name or the place upon which his information is supported. It is impossible to satisfy the ambition of a priesthood who seek to become dominant in England as well as every other place. It is useless, when such motives are avowed, to expect that such a priesthood will he stopped by any reason or argument, that they will be very scrupulous as to their facts, or will furnish means by which their allegations can be investigated. It is idle to ask the House to read the Bill a second time upon the grounds alleged. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) said he would vote for the measure upon the principle of doing unto others as he would wish to be done by. Well, then, let us place before the House the condition of the Roman Catholic prisoners in England, in comparison with that of Protestant prisoners in a Roman Catholic country. If you will go into that question, I will ask the House whether they have forgotten all the dark secrets of the dungeons in Italy, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has adduced. Is there any parity of position between the condition of Roman Catholic prisoners in Protestant England and that of all other prisoners in the dungeons of Italy when she was Papal? Let us take Spain, too. There are Protestants, at the present moment, lying in the prisons of Spain. Matamoras still lingers in prison there. Is his position, I ask, at all analogous to that of the Roman Catholic prisoners in England? Why, you know it is not. Well, but what produces the difference? The difference is this: — Our gaols are conducted on those principles of humanity, charity, and Protestant Christianity, which still characterize our laws, and not upon those principles of intolerance and persecution which disgrace the criminal code of Spain, and of other countries in which the morality and religion of Rome are dominant. [Cries of Divide!] I am sure the House will not, under the circumstances, refuse a hearing to an independent Member on this side, who thinks it his duty to oppose the Motion for the second reading of a Bill to which he has a conscientious objection —an opposition commenced by the independent Members on the Government side of the House—that it will
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  afford its indulgence on this important occasion—when we, the Conservatives—and I speak as a Conservative, though an independent Member—when we, I say, have to combat the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman who occupies the position of leader of that party in this House. Would it be becoming, under such circumstances, for any party within these walls to endeavour to stifle expression? Well, then, I say that this Bill is not an honest Bill. Last Session we had a Bill before us which was proposed by the hon. Member for the King's County. That measure sought to enact that the Roman Catholic bishops of the district in question—the hon. Member had so far guarded his language from a breach of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act—the hon. Member, I say, proposed that the Roman Catholic bishops should nominate the Roman Catholic chaplains who were to exercise spiritual functions in the county gaols, and were to be paid by the State. The present Bill, however, proposes that the justices at quarter sessions shall appoint the Roman Catholic priest or chaplain to attend upon the Catholic prisoners. Now, has the House forgotten the whole case of the difficulties of Ireland? When the Roman Catholic priests who were appointed to the workhouses and gaols in Ireland had so misconducted themselves as to demand the interference of the Government authorities—when the Government authorities, representing the whole power of this country, thought fit to remove them, they found the Roman Catholic bishops assuming a position of defiance. They thus replied to the Government— "You have no power to confer spiritual functions, neither have you power to take them away, so far as our Church is concerned. And we tell you, that if you do not employ the chaplain we have found for you, no other shall be appointed." Why, even the whole power of the Government of the State was impotent before that declaration. I ask the House, then, if this usurped power of the Church of Rome in a matter temporal, be sufficient to paralyse the whole authority of the State in Ireland, what chance would the magistrates at quarter sessions have in a conflict with it? It is sheer hypocrisy to place this power in the hands of such an authority, for they must accept the Roman Catholic chaplains that are proposed by the bishops, under the organization of the Roman Catholic Church and the constitution which has been given to it by the Papal Brief of

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  1850. The fact is this:—The Bill is sought for not for the sake of Roman Catholic prisoners, for no one yet has produced a single complaint from a prisoner upon this point; but it is sought for the purpose of gratifying the ambition of the Church of Rome. And it is for that reason that I shall vote against it. Let me now allude to a point which struck me in the speech of the noble Lord the Member for Arundel. The noble Lord admitted that the Roman Catholic prisoners did not ask for consolation from their priests, and he accounted for it in this way. He said, that if they did not go to the Protestant chapel, they knew they would be confined so many more hours in a solitary prison. But whose fault is that? Is it not the fault of the Roman Catholic priesthood themselves? And are we to understand, that being in a position of enormous wealth, which enabled them to quadruple and quintuple their establishments within a very short period—I will not stop to inquire as to how or where they obtain this wealth—are we, I say, to understand that the Roman Catholic priesthood in this position will not attend upon their own criminals, upon criminals of their own religious persuasion, with sufficient regularity to relieve them from the infliction of this additional confinement, unless they —the priests—are well paid for their services? On the part of the Protestants of England, I say that we have given full toleration in our legislation to the members of the Church of Rome. Nay, I will go so far as to say that we have gone to the extreme limits of toleration, inasmuch as we have placed the priesthood of that Church in a position which enables them almost to defy our laws. But there is one thing which we will not do. We will not pay for the enforcement of the Roman Catholic religion upon criminals who refuse to follow it willingly. Such a violation of religious liberty is such a measure as this, that it appears to me to be a total departure from those principles of toleration which have ever distinguished this country under its Protestant Constitution. Now, it may be right for the State to say that we believe the religion of our Church may he true—that it produces and teaches morality, and that it is in accordance with the free and independent opinions of the people, and therefore it shall be used for reformatory purposes in our prisons. But nothing can excuse a Government saying, we believe the religion of a Church to be false— we know that the morality it teaches is
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  very much inferior to that of other religions denominations, and yet we will enforce the teaching of that particular religion which we do not believe upon those whom we have within our grasp, and who do not desire or ask for it—upon the prisoners in our gaols. [Cries of Divide !] If the House will permit me, I will read the advice of a most distinguished person — one of the most active leaders of the Ultramontane party abroad —an advice given to the Roman Catholics of this country, not as individuals, but as members of a priestly organization. Speaking of the political future of England, Count Montalembert, who avowed that he longed for the restoration of the Church of Rome in England as the dominant Church, gave this advice in 1856 to his co-religionists in this kingdom—
  "What remains to them (English Roman Catholics) now is to obtain in practice a more sincere and equitable observation of the principle of equality in all that refers to the nomination of employments, an equal share in public grants, the intervention of ecclesiastics paid by the State in the army, in the prisons, and in the hospitals, and this they will attain—slowly, perhaps, but they will attain it—their rights, their rapidly increasing numbers, the necessities of the time in which we live, everything is for them,"
  Such is the advice of Count Montalembert. I do not believe that the noble Lord opposite wishes to advance the objects of the Court of Rome, as expressed by the distinguished Ultramontanist I have quoted. And yet I tell the noble Lord, that by this Bill, he will be advancing these Ultramontane priests towards that high position to which the Church of Rome so ardently aspires. Let me warn the House against fancying, that by paying the Roman Catholic priests they may control that power with which they are armed. Rome, no doubt, will let you fancy no until she establishes her Church in a position of equality. But, once established, you will find that the Church of Rome, now under the direction of the Ultramontanist, or Jesuit party, will be just as inimical to everything English and to our Protestant Constitution as she has ever been. It is idle to look upon Rome now as Rome was when Pitt gave the Maynooth grant; Rome, then, at the instance of the Roman Catholic Powers of Europe, nearly driven into rebellion against their ecclesiastical head by the vexatious intrigues and tyranny of the Jesuits, found it necessary for her own security to suppress the Older. Rome, herself at that time the victim of a revolutionary movement,

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  was a suppliant to Protestant States for protection. All this is now reversed. The organization which supports her is the same as it was three centuries ago—her aim is still as high, her ambition is as great —and although his Holiness is cooped within the narrow confines of a city, the ambition and the organization of which he is the head is as wide-spread and as rampant as it was a century ago.
  MR. WHALLEY: * I regret, Sir, that I cannot justify it to myself to yield to the impatience of the House by remaining silent on this occasion, but what I have to say shall be short, and I will endeavour that it shall be to the purpose. I say, first, that this Bill is unconstitutional, in so far that it enables magistrates, who are the nominees of the Crown, and not the representatives of those who pay the taxes, to levy taxes; and as the administration of these funds is neither under the control of this House, nor of any other authority responsible to those who pay them, it becomes of the utmost importance to consider what are the objects to which this money is applied. It is to take into the service of the State a new class of officers in our county prisons—namely, Roman Catholic priests—and not only thus to extend and sustain, at the public cost, the authority and influence of that priesthood, but by another and distinct provision in this Bill, to prevent any prisoner, who may be still a Roman Catholic, from the opportunity of conforming to the Protestant faith—even though he desire to do so. Now, Sir, I say at once that the Roman Catholic priesthood constitute in this country neither more nor less than a political conspiracy, organized under the name of religion, and fraught with danger to the liberties of this country, civil and religious—owing no allegiance to our Sovereign, or to the laws, in so far as they conflict with the claims of Papal supremacy, and not abating one jot or tittle of those claims as manifested at Rome itself. And I say they will necessarily use all the power and influence, all the money and patronage they can obtain from us, to harass and injure our national interests at home and abroad, in so far as those interests are identified with Protestantism. That such is the fact— that political organization and action is the keystone of the Papal policy—is manifest from this debate. For the first time in this Parliament, the noble Lord at the head of the Government and the right hon. Gentleman opposite have both spoken in
  444
  support of a Government Bill, vying with each other which shall be most earnest in conciliating the political power which this priesthood have secured to themselves in this country. What justification does the noble Lord offer for this Bill? He says it is required for the better moral government of the prisons; I ask, where does he find any evidence of such a statement? Has any prison inspector, any magistrate, any governor of any prison in the kingdom ever so stated? I defy the Government to adduce a single tittle of evidence to that effect; while, on the other hand, I charge the Government with a knowledge that the very reverse has been the result of the experiment of introducing these paid priests of Rome, since last year, into the Government prisons. Is it not the fact that at Dartmoor the Romish priest has caused the greatest confusion and disorder in the prison? And that at Perth—another Government prison—is it not the fact that the Home Secretary has had to yield to the Roman Catholic priest, so far as to issue an order that no Roman Catholic shall be permitted to see a Scripture reader or a Protestant minister? But why should we seek for further evidence that the Romish priesthood habitually sanctions disloyalty, riot and sedition, and that the Government as habitually ignores the fact, and dares not resist the political agency by which they sustain themselves in the open avowal of such conduct? Will the right hon. the Secretary of Ireland deny that he knows, or has good reason to believe, that the agrarian murders of the last autumn—the disloyal demonstrations continuously taking place in various parts of the country—ramifying, too, under the name of St. Patrick's Brotherhood, in this country and abroad—are any other than a new manifestation of that Ribbon system which, by overwhelming evidence, is identified with and sustained by the Irish priests? Will the right hon. the Secretary for the Home Department deny that the Garibaldi riots at Birkenhead, and in Hyde Park, were organized by the Romish priests, and that such organization is so complete as to have put a stop to freedom of discussion on such subjects throughout this country? What are the results, on the other side, of the efforts at conciliation? The constant concessions to these Romish demands, for the last thirty years, amounting in hard money, paid directly to the priesthood in one form or other, to above £300,000 a year. Where is the evi-

  445
  dence of their having been conciliated? What have we gained but an increase of their demands, coupled with threats of vengeance for the least delay in granting to them still further means of developing those political and social objects which they openly avow will stop at nothing short of the absolute supremacy of the Romish power in this country? The right hon. the Member for Oxfordshire says, this Bill is to do to others as we, if in the situation of these prisoners, would be done by. Does he then assert that those prisoners who express no desire to see their priests are not in that respect free agents; if they are so, and no one has denied it, what more does he ask for them, or would he desire for himself, than to be allowed to attend, as they desire to do, the Protestant worship? But, says the right hon. Gentleman, they will derive no benefit from it, because they are Roman Catholics; and he approves of a Bill which prevents them from having the opportunity, which they desire, of becoming Protestants, and thus extends the secular power and the public money to keep them forcibly under the control of the Romish priests. What more can be necessary than to point to such arguments, in order to exhibit the extent to which the political power of this priesthood has already brought under control, not the Government alone, but even the debates in this House, in which the right hon. Member takes so distinguished a part? Is it so strange that Roman Catholics should desire to emancipate themselves from the thraldom of their priests, that no other reason can be alleged for the indifference of prisoners to their ministrations than an indifference to all religion; and if that be so, is it not more reasonable to allow a Protestant minister to endeavour to arouse in their breasts the spirit of religion, than to cast them back forcibly into the arms of those who have hitherto failed to create such a spirit? But why should we suppose that the Roman Catholics of this country are not as ready to throw off the shackles of their priesthood as the Italians? Why should the Government of this country give to those priests the power to keep them to their faith beyond what even France or Italy gives, and corresponding, so far as it goes, to the utmost demands the priests have ever made of any Government in Europe? And is not the Government, by this Bill, exercising over the Roman Catholic prisoners the same compul-
  446
  sory power? Is it not denying them the same freedom of conscience which Spain, at the instance of that priesthood, refuses to extend to Matamoros and his Protestant fellow countrymen? To suppose that either the noble Lord at the head of the Government, or the right hon. Gentleman opposite, really believes that this measure is demanded as a means of reforming criminals, is absurd. There is not a shadow of evidence to justify it; but, as I before asserted, the Government will know by their experience even since last year, that it will have a contrary effect. That it is demanded by any consideration for the feelings of the prisoners, is directly contrary to the published evidence; while to say that it is good for their spiritual interests thus to force upon them that religion which the Queen has solemnly declared to be "superstitious and idolatrous," is a mockery alike of the religion and of the Constitution of the country. I go further, and deliberately say, that, in my humble opinion, it is inconsistent with that duty and loyalty to the Throne which the responsible Ministers of the Sovereign might be expected to manifest. Nor does it appear to justify the Government in this policy, that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire, who represents the Church of England on this occasion, also bids for an alliance with Home. The right hon. Gentleman may be presumed to know best the interests of his party; but if those interests demand such an alliance, the Church of England will do well to consider whether it will accede thereto, and thus inevitably draw down on itself that retribution which is foreshadowed by the unholy coalition with my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds.
  Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 152; Noes 122: Majority 30.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read 2°, and committed for Friday.

  AYES.

  Acton, Sir J. D.

  Beaumont, S. A.

  Adam, W. P.

  Beecroft, G. S.

  Atherton, Sir W.

  Bellow, R. M.

  Ayrton, A. S.

  Berkeley, Col. F. W. F.

  Bailey, C.

  Berkeley, hon. C. P. F.

  Baines, E.

  Blake, J.

  Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T.

  Bonham-Carter, J.

  Baring, T. G.

  Bouverie, rt. hon. E. P.

  Bass. M. T.

  Bouverie, hon. P. P.

  Beaumont, W. B.

  Bowyer, Sir G.

  447

  Brady, Dr.

  Liddell, hon. H. G.

  Bramston, T, W.

  Locke, J.

  Bruce, H. A.

  Longfield, R.

  Buchanan, W.

  Lowe, rt. hon. R.

  Buckley, General

  Lygon, hon. F.

  Butt, I.

  M'Cann, J,

  Buxton, C.

  MacEvoy, E.

  Calthorpe, hon. F. H. W. G.

  sM'Mahon, P.

  Maguire, J. F.

  Cardwell, rt. hon. E.

  Mainwaring, T.

  Castlerosse, Viscount

  Manners, rt. hon. Ld. J.

  Cavendish, hon. W.

  Martin, J.

  Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B.

  Merry, J.

  Cogan, W. H. F.

  Mildmay, H. F.

  Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

  Mitchell, T. A.

  Collier, R. P.

  Monsell, rt. hon. W.

  Cowper, rt. hon. W. F.

  Morritt, W. J. S.

  Cox, W.

  Northcote, Sir S. H.

  Crawford, R. W.

  O'Brien, Sir P.

  Dalglish, R.

  O'Conor Don, The

  Davey, R.

  O'Reilly, M. W.

  Dering, Sir E. C.

  Padmore, R.

  Dickson, Colonel

  Paget, Lord A.

  Dillwyn, L. L.

  Pakington, rt. hn. Sir J.

  Disraeli, rt. hon. B.

  Palmer, Sir R.

  Douglas, Sir C.

  Palmerston, Viscount

  Duff, M. E. G.

  Patten, Colonel W.

  Dunne, Colonel

  Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

  Dunne, M.

  Peel, rt. hon. F.

  Egerton, hon. A. F.

  Pender, J.

  Ellice, rt. hon. E. (Cov.)

  Pinney, Colonel

  Ennis, J.

  Pollard-Urquhart, W.

  Evans, T. W.

  Potter, E.

  Ewart, J. C.

  Potts, G.

  Fergusson, Sir J.

  Proby, Lord

  Forster, C.

  Pryse, E. L.

  Forster, W. E.

  Puller, C. W. G.

  French, Colonel

  Robertson, D.

  Gallwey, Sir W. P.

  Robertson, H.

  Gavin, Major

  Russell, F. W.

  Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.

  Salomons, Mr. Ald.

  Gladstone, rt. hon. W.

  Scholefield, W.

  Gower, hon. F. L.

  Scully, V.

  Greene, J.

  Seely, C.

  Greenwood, J.

  Seymour, A.

  Gregory, W. H.

  Sidney, T.

  Grenfell, H. R.

  Smith, J. B.

  Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

  Smith J. A.

  Grosvenor, Earl

  Stacpoole, W.

  Gurdon, B.

  Stansfeld, J.

  Hadfield, G.

  Steel, J.

  Hanmer, Sir J.

  Stirling, W.

  Hartington, Marq. of

  Taylor, P. A.

  Hay, Sir J. C. D.

  Vane, Lord H.

  Headlam, rt. hon. T. E.

  Verney, Sir H.

  Henley, Lord

  Villiers, rt. hon. C. P.

  Herbert, rt. hon. H. A.

  Vivian, H. H.

  Heygate, W. U.

  Waldron, L.

  Howard, hon. C. W. G.

  Watkins, Colonel L.

  Howard, Lord E.

  Westhead, J. P. Brown-

  Hubbard, J. G.

  Willoughby, Sir H.

  Hutt, rt. hon. W.

  Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

  Ingham, R.

  Wood, W.

  Jackson, W.

  Woods, H.

  Kingscote, Colonel

  Knight, F. W.

  TELLERS.

  Layard, A. H.

  Mr. Brand

  Leatham, E. A.

  Colonel White

  Lennox, Lord H. G.

  NOES

  Adderley, rt. hon. C. B.

  Angerstein, W.

  Addington, hon, W. W.

  Arbuthnott, hon. Gen.

  448

  Archdall, Captain M.

  Malins, R.

  Aytoun, R. S,

  Martin, P. W.

  Beach, W. W. B.

  Miller, W.

  Bentinck, G. W. P.

  Mills, A.

  Beresford, rt. hon. W.

  Mills, J. R.

  Blackburn, P.

  Mitford, W. T.

  Bovill, W.

  Montgomery, Sir G.

  Bridges, Sir B. W.

  Morgan, O.

  Bruce, Major C.

  Morris, D,

  Butler, C. S.

  Morrison, W.

  Caird, J.

  Mowbray, rt. hon. J. R.

  Cairns, Sir H. M.

  Mundy, W.

  Cartwright, Colonel

  Mure, D.

  Churchill, Lord A. S.

  Newdegate, C. N.

  Close, M. C.

  Nicol, W.

  Cobbett, J. M.

  North, Colonel

  Craufurd, E. H. J.

  Ogilvy, Sir J.

  Cubitt, G.

  Onslow, G.

  Du Cane, C.

  Packe, C. W.

  Duncombe, hon. A.

  Parker, Major W.

  Dundas, F.

  Peto, Sir S. M.

  Dunlop, A. M.

  Pevensey, Viscount

  Du Pre, C. G.

  Phillips, G. L.

  Dutton, hon. R. H.

  Pigott, Sergeant

  Edwards, Major

  Powell, F. S.

  Ellice, E. (St. Ands.)

  Quinn, P.

  Enfield, Viscount

  Repton, G. W. J.

  Ewart, W.

  Rogers, J. J.

  Ewing, H. E. Crum-

  Rose, W. A.

  Fane, Colonel J. W.

  Sclater- Booth, G.

  Farquhar, Sir M.

  Scott, Sir W.

  Farrer, J.

  Selwyn, C. J.

  Fellowes, E.

  Seymer, H. K.

  Foley, H. W.

  Seymour, W. D.

  Gard, R. S.

  Shelley, Sir J. V.

  Getty, S. G.

  Smith, Abel

  Gilpin, Colonel

  Smyth, Colonel

  Gordon, C. W.

  Somes, J.

  Gore, J. R. O.

  Spooner, R.

  Gower, G. W. G. L.

  Stuart, Lieut. Col. W.

  Greenall, G.

  Sykes, Colonel W. H.

  Gray, Captain

  Tempest, Lord A. V.

  Grogan, Sir E.

  Tite, W.

  Haliburton, T. C.

  Tollemache, J.

  Hanbury, R.

  Trefusis, hon. C. H. R.

  Hardy, J.

  Vance, J.

  Hibbert, J. T.

  Vansittart, W.

  Horsfall, T. B.

  Verner, Sir W.

  Howes, E.

  Watlington, J. W. P.

  Hunt, G. W.

  Way, A. E.

  Kekewich, S. T.

  Whalley, G. H.

  Kendall, N.

  White, J.

  Kennard, R. W.

  Williams, W.

  King, J. K.

  Wyld, J.

  Kinnaird, hon. A. F.

  Wyndham, hon. P.

  Langton, W. G.

  Wynne, W. W. E.

  Lefroy, A.

  Yorke, hon. E. T.

  Lee, W.

  Long, R. P.

  TELLERS.

  Lysley, W. J.

  Mr. W. H. G. Langton

  Mackie, J.

  Colonel Barttelot

ASSURANCES REGISTRATION (IRELAND) BILL— [BILL 46.]

  SECOND READING. ADJOURNED DEBATE.
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [16th April], "That the Bill be now read a second lime."
  Question again proposed.
  Debate resumed.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he rose to resume the debate on this Bill, which related; to a subject of great gravity. The size of the Bill alone was sufficient to give it importance. It affected the whole kingdom of Ireland, and all charges on land in that country, and must necessarily be a measure of great difficulty and complexity. It interfered with the provisions of a law which had been passed in the reign of Queen Anne, and his complaint against the Bill was that it revolutionized everything which had existed in Ireland, in, reference to the registration of deeds, for the last century and a half. Great men had lived before Agamemnon, and wise men had lived before Solomon; but he thought their forefathers showed much discretion when they passed the law which they were now called upon to subvert. In, the reign of Queen Anne there were clever men, successful statesmen, elegant writers, and generals who could fight and conquer, and he believed the men of that generation knew what they were about when they passed a measure for the general registration of assurances in Ireland. The object of the statute of Anne was, first to protect the community against forgeries; and secondly, to secure purchasers and others against frauds, by giving priority to a registered conveyance over an unregistered conveyance, whether it affected a contract, an equity, or a legal title. That law was passed by the Irish Parliament in the sixth year of Queen Anne, and in so doing that Parliament, he thought, had acted with great good sense. The Act provided, first, that the deed should be registered; and secondly, it fixed the mode of registration. The mode of registering was by a memorial of the deed, setting forth, in a concise form, the names of the parties to it, and the laud to which it related. The statute likewise provided that one of the witnesses to the deed should be a witness to the memorial, and that he should make an affidavit of having seen the original deed executed by one of the parties, as well as of his knowledge of the correctness of the memorial. As a further safeguard, it provided that the registrar should enter into heavy recognisances —to the amount of some £20,000—so that if any loss should accrue to a purchaser, by his neglect or oversight during a search, the registrar might be called upon to make it good. The statute of Anne rested the responsibility upon the registrar, and sought to effect the object in the shortest, cheapest,
  450
  and most effectual manner. He had not been able to find out the reasons on the part of the Government for repealing that measure, and he waited anxiously to hear them. That Act was somewhat altered — he would not say amended—by the 8 Anne, c. 10, and by the 8 Geo I., which merely provided that the registrar might give a certificate to a pin-chaser that no other deed affecting the premises or property, except such as were mentioned, had been registered. The last Act passed by the Irish Parliament was in the 25 Geo. III., c. 47; and far from impairing the Act of Queen Anne, it carried out the law more cheaply and efficiently by enabling the negative certificates to be limited to particular lands, periods, and persons, if desired. By each of those Acts the responsibility of the registrar was preserved, but no reason had been given for repealing the wise legislation of the Irish Parliament; and he should have to ask the hon. and learned Solicitor General to explain why it was to be overthrown, and why the responsibility of the registrar was to be taken away. Up to the Union the law had worked well for the purposes for which it was framed, and no Act was passed in the English Parliament until 1823—the 9 Geo. IV., c. 57. He begged to call attention to that Act, because it touched the subject of patronage, which, he believed, was the real object of this measure. When he first entered Parliament, his right hon. Friend, afterwards Chancellor Napier, told him that he happened to be in conversation with the late Sir James Graham upon Irish Bills, and Sir James Graham said, in very emphatic terms, whenever you see a Bill of an apparently complex character brought in by the Government, look carefully for the patronage clause, and in that clause you will find the key to the measure. He found such a key to this Bill. There were at present nearly sixty permanent places, and from thirty to forty temporary places, connected with the Registry Office in Ireland. Although he did not complain of the Government wishing to distribute a hundred places among such discerning men as would give them their support, he did complain of any attempt to hoodwink the House of Commons by blinding them to the real object of the Bill. The Act of George IV., to which he had referred, provided that it should be lawful for the Treasury to appoint the registrar, assistant registrar, clerks, and subordinate offi-

  451
  cers necessary to discharge the duties, and that the registrar should enter into recognisances in a less sum than under the statute of Anne—he believed £10,000— for the due performance of those duties. It provided, that on complaint on oath before one of Her Majesty's superior courts in Dublin of any default or misconduct by the registrar, sub-registrar, or clerks, the court should hear and determine the complaint: and if the court were of opinion that the charge had been made out, then the senior judge was forthwith to communicate a copy of the judgment to the Lord Lieutenant, who thereupon might remove the person complained of. Another important section of the Act also provided, that no person not being employed in the office should be allowed to inspect any memorial except in presence of some officer acting in the execution of his duty. Then it was directed that abstract books of memorials should be kept, and an index of the lands in each barony, with the name of the owner; but that no information should be given with respect to the memorial or register of any deed otherwise than upon application duly made to the proper officer, and that there should be a certificate in each case by the proper officer. The object of that provision was to prevent the publication of a black list with reference to gentlemen who might feel it necessary, as Irish landowners had been known sometimes to do, to borrow a little money upon mortgage. It was hardly necessary to say that the present Bill was framed, as a matter of course, on exactly the opposite principle. The other sections of 9 Geo. IV., were all to the same effect, regulating the office, but never, in the slightest degree, changing the language of the ancient fundamental statute of Queen Anne. Another Act—the 2 & 3 Will. IV.— was passed in 1832. Before being read a third time it was considered by a Select Committee which contained some distinguished names. They were Mr. Hume, Mr. Spring Rice, Sir F. Baring, Lord Granville Somerset, Sir R. H. Inglis, Mr. Shiel, Lord Stanley, Mr. Goulburn, and the Chief Justice Lefroy. The Committee called evidence to ascertain whether they should preserve the responsibility of the registrar, and after examining Sir Mathew Barrington, Mr. Pierce Mahoney, and other competent witnesses, they decided that question in the affirmative. They raised the question whether it would be better to inflict a penalty
  452
  upon, rather than give the right of action against, the registrar, if he omitted any deed; and they were told that the penalty would be of no use, and that no remedy would be so efficient as that by action. As finally passed, the Act provided over again that the Treasury should regulate the Registry Office in the manner that might be considered most calculated to promote the public convenience—a very wide discretion; and the Treasury was also empowered to lay out the surplus fees in such a way as might render the office most useful and convenient to the public. Some provisions of the next Act referred to be liked, and some he disliked. He approved its preserving the responsibility of the registrar, and the right of appointment in the Treasury to all the offices in the department of the registry, and its maintaining the statute of Queen Anne; but he regretted the departure from the old law and practice known in Ireland for so many years. Under the old practice a book was kept, in which every transaction with land appeared under any particular person's name, and the whole could be seen at a glance. The Act of 2 & 3 Will. IV., however, introduced a system of sectional indexes, which showed how a would-be reformer might meddle, only to spoil. Under the old law, as it had existed for ten years, everything done under any name, in a given county and barony, could be found under the name; but the Legislature of 1832 decided that it would be better that the registry and the search should be made, not in the name, but in the first two letters of it. Thus "Fortescue" would be looked for under the letters "Fo," which involved confusions with "Fox" and "Ford." Under that arrangement three hours were required in looking for information, which under the old system could be obtained in ten minutes. That was the species of improvement which was to be followed as a precedent on this occasion. The officers of the Registry Office did not adhere to so cumbrous a plan, but reverted, when they came to make the decennial index, as there was nothing in the statute absolutely to prevent them from doing, to the old and simpler system. Nothing further was done in the office till an Act of the 11th of Vict., was passed, requiring copies of negative searches in the Register to be preserved in order to cheapen and simplify subsequent searches. But persons dealing in land were found to prefer hav-

  453
  ing the whole thing done over again from the beginning, and to pay for it down on the nail, rather than trust to the accuracy of these copies. Thus the Act of the 11th of Vict. proved futile. A system of jurisprudence had been built up on the registration law of Ireland, which had existed for upwards of a century, and with which the legal men in Ireland were all familiar. Every word of the statute of Queen Anne had been expounded by the ablest Judges of the land, and his great objection to the Bill before them was, that where they had a law long known, settled, and judicially interpreted by the very highest authorities, it was most impolitic and unwise to change it, except under some overpowering necessity. When the Incumbered Estates Court was established, it was found that that tribunal could do nothing without the assistance of the registration officer, because every registered deed had priority over every deed that was not registered. It was then deemed necessary to improve the Registry Office, and, accordingly, Sir John Romilly's Act, the 13 & 14 Vict. was passed—a measure than which nothing more extraordinary had been seen, always excepting the Bill before them, some of the provisions of which had, indeed, been unwisely imported from it. That Act was announced as a very good law which ought to be the basis of registration; it was provided by one clause that it was not to come into operation until the Treasury proclaimed by order that it should; but as a warning to all theorists, although it had been drawn up with the most perplexing ingenuity, the Treasury were told, that if put in force, it would neutralize the effect of the Incumbered Estates Act, and create endless embarrassment and litigation. The Lords of the Treasury were at that time men of good sense, and from that hour to the present the Bill never had been put in force. How, then, could this measure, which was in the main a transcript of that Act, ever be enforced? The next question was, how had the Office for the Registration of Deeds worked to the present moment? The right hon. Baronet had been persuaded to say that this office was in a state of confusion; that there was a great arrear of business, and that many complaints were made of it. But when the law passed to improve the administration of the Incumbered Estates Act, how did the Registration Office transact its business?
  454
  He was lost in astonishment at the hardihood of the assertion that the men in office were incompetent, and that the office had failed in the performance of its duties; for, unaided and unassisted, the office had contrived to transfer the greater portion of the soil of the kingdom. What office in the British Empire had done its work so well? The War Office broke down under a strain; the Commissariat Department also broke down; and what quantity of land had the office in the English Court of Chancery transferred? He challenged the right hon. Baronet or the Solicitor General to instance one single well-authenticated case in which the Irish Registration Office had failed in its duty in the transfer of many millions' worth of property. He admitted that searches of a difficult character might be held back for three months or so, but there was no instance in which a search had been imperfectly or irregularly made, or in which the office had failed to do its duty. But now, instead of receiving the thanks which they deserved, they were told by the right hon. Baronet that they were incompetent to perform the functions which the Legislature had imposed upon them. Was the House prepared to accept the speculations and theories of those who had invented certain clauses of this Bill, and to set at nought the practical results obtained through the working; of the present law? It was true there had been a delay in the keeping up of certain transcript books, but that had arisen from an endeavour to assist those who desired to make searches, and this was the consequence of efforts to facilitate the working of the Incumbered Estates Court. Instead, however, of the office being in a state of confusion, he could testify that it was one of the most orderly and well-managed departments he had ever known. The mode in which the business was done was this:—The solicitor brought in the deed and the memorial; the deed was first examined to see that the proper stamp was upon it. That was a matter between the office and the Treasury. The guard against forgery under the old statute of Queen Anne consisted in this, that the deed and memorial were both deposited in the office for three or four days for examination, and he knew and had heard of no case of forgery but one in the last three-quarters of a century, for no one would like to risk leaving a deed containing a forgery for three or four days. The memorial was handed over

  455
  to the abstract clerk, who abstracted everything from it of importance, and the abstract was given to a clerk in the office, who copied it into the abstract book, and those who came to search seldom looked at the memorial. This abstract was the basis of the land index, as the day book, containing the names of the persons conveying land, was the basis of the book of names. In a few days the deed was handed back, and he could assure the House that at present about a million of memorials were arranged in the fire-proof safe with such precision that a stranger could find any one of them in a space of time that would astonish his right hon. Friend. If time permitted, the memorial was sent into the transcribing office, and transcribed to be bound in a book. This transcribing the memorials was in arrear; and he asked what the right hon. Gentleman was instructed to say was the extent of that arrear. He was told the whole of it would be cleared off in three weeks, and that was ten days ago. The comparison of the abstract book was complete up to the latest possible period — that was to say, that the material for the land index was complete to within three weeks, and the day book and the names index depending thereon was made up to within three days. He believed he need not state what was the requisition for a search, or how it was made, but he might say it was made by a man perfectly competent; when they had fished out the names, and analyzed the requisition, they made the search with comparative speed. As to the books in the office, he had seen them. The books to 1785 were in dictionary order. Of these books there was a perfect transcript, which had not been compared for want of hands, from 1708 to 1785. There was a complete corrected register from 1785 to 1832; the books were in dictionary order, and all that was required there was to copy them into the parchment books to provide against accident by fire. From that time began the books under 2 Will. IV., commencing perversely with the two letters, and which he should recommend to be discontinued. They were kept to make the quinquennial book. That brought him to the great land sales from 1841 to the present day; and this brought them to the main question. These gentlemen had done their work successfully and well, and without any mistake, and the books were now in dictionary order. The fees of the office
  456
  had been more than £30,000 above the expenses. The Treasury had given them an additional supply of thirty clerks, so that the work in arrear might be completed; and the dictionary from 1850 to 1859 contained 200,000 entries requiring to be consolidated and examined. That work had been done completely and perfectly. Indeed, the operations of the office were performed with mathematical accuracy, in his opinion, never equalled; and he was at a loss to conceive—having regard to the period of time, and the sales of such immense amount during the last twenty years—how it could be possible to construct an office upon any scale, contrivance, or speculation, that would do the work more safely, securely, and perfectly, than these two books proved it to have been done. And if that practical result had been obtained, he required to be informed, in a practical assembly, why that office was to be change, to be revolutionized, and what practical object was to be gained? One of the schemes propounded was printing on parchment. If several hundred copies were required it might be desirable to have the records printed instead of transcribed; but where only one or two copies were wanted it would be very costly to call in the aid of the compositor. He had seen a specimen of printing on parchment by Thom, of Dublin, one of the best printers in the Kingdom, but the impression was pale and illegible compared with the manuscript of the engrossing clerks. He did not say that they could not have matter printed on parchment as dark and as large as they pleased; but he contended that they ought to have a specimen of engrossing and printing laid before them, and an estimate of the expense of both, before they cast aside the old practice and adopted the novelty. Another obstacle to printing was the prohibition against carrying any of the records out of the sight of the officers in charge of them. This order was essential, in consequence of the abstraction of a page of a will, and the substitution of a forged leaf, on the occasion of an important law suit. Although the fraud was, in the first instance successful, suspicions were aroused, and on inquiry it was detected. If, then, the documents were to be printed, were the records to be sent to the printing offices? He apprehended that no Parliament would assent to that project. Then were they to build a printing office in connection with the establish-

  457
  ment? Where was the ground for it? The idea of printing the documents in daily use was altogether visionary. Having, then, explained the condition of the office, he would call attention to the clauses of the Bill. He objected to the provision in the Bill that the direction, management, and superintendence of all the departments of the Registry Office should devolve on the Judges of the Landed Instates Court. There was no similarity or connection between the duties which those gentlemen had discharged and those which would he imposed on them by the Bill. It might be very well to grant an appeal to them on points of law, or in regard to misconduct, but it would not do to burden them with the entire management of the office. The next clause, 11, revolutionized the entire establishment of the office. It enacted that the Register Office should consist of a registrar, two assistant registrars, and so many clerks and officers as the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with the sanction of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury, should, from time to time, think fit. He had already shown that the appointment to all these offices was fixed in the Treasury according to the Civil Service regulations; and were it not that the Bill emanated from his right hon. Friend opposite, he should have said that a ranker job could not have been suggested than to transfer the appointment to the Castle at Dublin. Another part of the Bill to which he objected, had reference to certain temporary officers. He had already stated that the Treasury had at present under their control some thirty or forty clerks, who were appointed merely for temporary purposes, and who, at the present moment, were on the point of dismissal. That branch of the service was to be given over to the Landed Estates, Court, and to that proposition he objected. He did not object to see Judges appoint their sons and relations to places in the courts over which they presided, because he thought that the parties then worked; harmoniously together; but he objected to those particular appointments being taken from the Treasury and given to Judges to whose court the appointments did not belong. It might, be recollected that an Irish registrar general was once a Member of that House, and yet he maintained that the 80th clause dealt with officers of the highest class—such as the registrar and assistant registiars—as a police magistrate might deal
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  with a drunken constable, enabling a Judge of the Landed Estates Court to stop their salary and dismiss them without appeal. That was a clause he would never agree to. Clause 32, which was an important part of the Bill, implied that registration might be effected either by memorial, or by copy, or by counterpart. Now, the first plan was the present practice in Ireland, and was short and cheap; but he believed that the gentlemen of the Landed Estates Court had come to the conclusion that the whole of the past law was wrong, and that the entire deeds of every gentlemen in Ireland should be put on the register. If the Bill passed, there would, no doubt, be a black list of every gentleman who had a mortgage on his estate placarded to the world, and those gentlemen would deserve it for allowing such a law to be put on the statute book. Then again there was an alteration, of the existing rule, according to which, where a deed was executed by one of the grantors or grantees, it can be registered as against all parties. But this existing state of the law was to be abolished. The very form of making the affidavits by the witness who were to attest the execution of the deed and of the memorial was altered, unnecessarily and with considerable risk. Then he came to the question of making the Ordnance survey the basis of the registration. On this point one would have expected that the Bill would have been in accordance with the recommendations of the gentleman whom the Government had appointed to inquire and report on the subject, but it was not. They had appointed a gentleman of eminence at the Bar to make a report, and after a full consideration of the matter he abandoned the town land basis as impracticable, there being no less than 63,000 town lands in Ireland, it was said, of an average of 300 acres each, but some not containing ten acres. More than that, Mr. Lane, the gentleman to whom he referred, had prepared a sketch of a Bill; but the Government had never asked him for it, and he felt that in honour he could not communicate it to any one else in the present state of the question. That was Mr. Lane's reply when he asked him what his plan was. But if there were more town lands than one in the same barony bearing the same name, how was the consulter of the Ordnance survey to decide as to which of them the registration was against? In Westmeath there were two town lands

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  of the same name; in Fermanagh three of the same name; in other counties there were ten and twelve of the same name. He wished to know how these were to be distinguished from one another by the registration proposed in the Bill? How was it possible to avoid confusion and error under such circumstances? The principle of compulsory registration, founded on the basis of the Ordnance survey, was opposed to the report of Mr. Lane, and of the Irish; Courts. The Scotch Commissioners, also, after fully considering the subject, had reported against a similar change in the system of registration. The Bill further contained a most offensive clause against the respectable body of the solicitors of the country, for it provided that, instead of the pecuniary compensation from the registrar, any solicitor who wrongfully registered a deed should be tried at the Old Bailey for a misdemeanor. Why, how could such a provision be carried out, seeing that no means were provided for identifying with the names in the Ordnance map the names; of the denominations in the title deeds, especially as the localities and boundaries were changing every day? Then under the Bill, what remedy was there for man who might lose his land under a false or mistaken registry of it deed? Why, none whatever, because it would be no remedy to prosecute for misdemeanor a fraudulent solicitor. A capitalist might lend,£30,000 on an estate, but his solicitor might not possess a penny Suppose that solicitor wilfully and improperly registered the deed against the wrong townland; why, then, under the Bill, the capitalist must lose his £30,000. He would further ask the Government to strike out of the Bill all the clauses relating to the registration of judgments. There was at present a Bill on the table to abolish the existing law upon that subject; and the clause in the proposed measure would act as a positive embarrassment in the way of the transfer of land. Then it was highly objectionable that the registrar should be changed from a Ministerial into a judicial officer, as was proposed by the Bill, and that a man might be declared to have died intestate as to his real estate with such facility. If a man died this week, and his son, being a scamp, persuaded the Judge of the Probate Court that his father had died intestate, he might, by help of a certificate of intestacy, immediately sell the estate, and go to another country with his plunder; he then
  460
  became a trustee for the family he had lobbed, and the Bill, while enabling the Judge to recall the probate, declared the sale of the estate by the fraudulent heir good. He was willing to take for Ireland any law that might be passed for this country, no matter what that law was; but let not the House be so unwise or so impolitic as to pass a law for Ireland which they would not dare to pass for England, a crotchet of somebody's, but which nobody understood. The 76th clause enabled a single Judge to dispose of all priorities, to set aside deeds, to register deeds at his will and discretion, and to do as he might think particular documents conformed to the spirit, and not the letter, of the Act of Parliament. That astounding suction rendered every other clause in the Bill unnecessary. The Bill, in short, introduced novelties of such a kind, and introduced such difficulties, that lie did not believe it would ever become the law of the land. It was remarkable that a Bill so vast, and that concerned the land, the law, and the property of Ireland, should be represented on the Treasury bench by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth solus. If he should carry it, he would be the political Coriolanus of the age, for he would be able to say, "Alone I did it." A vacancy in the metropolitan county of Ireland had now occurred, and there was an opportunity of enabling the right hon. Gentleman's law advisers, if they thought fit, to give him the assistance he required. The Irish Members did not desire to give the right hon. Gentleman more trouble than they could help, during the existence of his provisional administration; they did not wish to lay themselves open to the unnecessary censure of the Solicitor General, and to be accused of giving a "blind and indiscriminate opposition" to this Bill.
  Question put.
  The House divided: — Ayes 56; Noes 41: Majority 15.
  Bill read 2°
  On Question that the Bill be committed for Monday,
  SIR EDWARD GROGANsaid, he wished to give notice of his intention to move that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he wished to ask the House whether they had ever witnessed such a scene as that which had just taken place. Upon the second reading of

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  a, Bill of the utmost importance to Ireland a right hon. and learned Gentleman had felt it necessary, in a most able and argumentative speech, occupying some hours, to show how objectionable the measure would prove to the sister country, and not one occupant of the Ministerial Bench had thought it becoming him to reply to it. He considered such conduct upon the part of the Government as an insult to Ireland. The division list on the following day would show, as usual in reference to the Bills of the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland, that the vast majority of the Irish Members had voted in the minority; but they were swamped by the votes of the English Members, who knew nothing, and cared less, about the interests of Ireland.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, the Government had introduced the measure believing it to be one of a very useful character and to be called for by the people of Ireland generally. The progress of the Bill had been several times postponed to meet the convenience of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin. His right hon. Friend in introducing the Bill having stated very ample reasons for recommending it to the House, could not again be heard in the same debate, and he himself on the occasion when the Bill was last under consideration dealt with the principal objections then brought against it. His right hon. and learned Friend the Member for the University of Dublin, with his usual ability, had made a speech occupying no less than three hours, but he had not touched in the least on the general principle of the Bill. His objections, however important, were wholly to the details of clauses, and some of them had been answered by anticipation. As the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman only closed at twelve o'clock, if he had attempted to answer it, the House might have been compelled to sit till three o'clock in the morning, which would have been unreasonable. Besides, the only result would have been to play into the hands of any hon. Members who might wish to defeat the Bill by delay, a course which the Government had no intention of adopting.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, the House had a right to hear from a Gentleman of the ability of the Solicitor General reasons for any measure he advocated, otherwise they must believe he had no reasons to give.
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  The objections which he had just urged, so far from being points of detail, were regarded by many of the heads of the profession in Ireland as involving matters of the highest principle. It did not follow, because a Gentleman thoroughly unconnected with Ireland chose to say, "Here is a Bill; take it, and do not argue it; or if you do, you shall not be answered," that such a system of carrying on the business of the country could be tolerated.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, it seemed to have escaped the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the Bill had been debated for several hours on a previous evening, and that his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General made a speech on that occasion marked by all his usual ability. He would have learned this fact had he read the newspapers.
  COLONEL DICKSONsaid, he thought the opinion they had heard that night from the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University (Mr. Whiteside) was well worth waiting for. He would not be deterred by threats from offering opposition to every stage of an unjust and unnecessary enactment.
  MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, the measure being one that would have the effect of almost confiscating the properties of Irish Members, they were determined to give it every opposition in their power. It was too bad that the Irish Members, who naturally felt deeply interested in the Bill, should find themselves outvoted by a number of English Members who cared not a farthing what injury the measure did to the sister country. The fact was, the people of Ireland were becoming everyday more and more disaffected towards this country, and were looking with much hope and expectation to the United States of America for a redress of their grievances.
  MR. LYGONsaid, he rose to order, and to ask what was the question before the House.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, that the question was, that the Bill be committed on Monday
  MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, that if hon. Gentlemen were anxious to play the strict game, he might call them to order almost every second sentence. On a future occasion he would enter fully into the subject.
  Bill committed for Monday next.

CHURCH BUILDING AND NEW PARISHES ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to consolidate and amend the Church Building and New Parishes Acts. At that hour of the night he would not state in detail the objects of the Bill. He wished, however, to explain that it was not intended to introduce any matter which would lead to controversy, and that therefore the clauses of the existing statutes relating to church rates would neither be repealed nor re-enacted, but would simply be left as they stood.
  MR. F. S. POWELLsaid, he approved of the Bill generally. At the same time, he would express a hope that some amendments, to which he would refer at a future stage, would be incorporated in the Bill, for they were absolutely necessary if the Church Building Acts were to be brought into harmony with the wants of the Church. There ought to be a power given to those who acted as trustees for the revenues belonging to the Church of England to invest monies in such a manner as would produce a better rate of interest than was then obtained. He hoped the same variety as regarded the mode of patronage would be retained, and the same elasticity, scope, and liberty of action, since they were alike in accordance with the general tendency of the English mind and beneficial to the Church of England.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill to consolidate and amend the Church Building and New Parishes Acts, ordered to be brought in by Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL and Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 82].

  MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. Wykeham Martin, Bill to amend the Law relating to Municipal Elections, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WYKEHAM MARTIN, Mr. COLLINS, and Mr. SERJEANT KINGLAKE.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 83.]
  House adjourned at half after Twelve o'clock.

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Report—Metropolitan Railway Communication, First Report (No. 70).
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Office of Secretary at War Abolition (No. 71); Oaths Relief in Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) (No. 72); New Zealand Boundaries (No. 73); Offences (South Africa) (No 74).
Report—Drainage of Land (Ireland) (No. 33).
Third Reading—Illegitimate Children (Ireland) (No. 50), and passed; Courts of the Church of Scotland (No. 65), and passed.
Royal Assent—Salmon Exportation [26 & 27 Vict., c. 10]; Births and Deaths Registration (Ireland) [26 & 27 Vict., c 11]; Mutiny [26 & 27 Vict., c. 8]; Marine Mutiny [26 & 27 Vict., c. 9].

LOSS OF H. M. S. "ORPHEUS."

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he wished to put a Question to the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty respecting the loss of Her Majesty's ship Orpheus. In the official despatch on the subject it was stated that the Orpheus, with nearly 200 men, was lost by acting, not against, but in compliance with the directions on her chart. The telegraph flag was flying telling her to take the bar; she obeyed that instruction, and consequently was wrecked. Since the chart was issued, in 1853, the sand at the mouth of the harbour of Manukau had shifted three quarters of a mile, and in consequence the Orpheus, instead of passing safely through the channel, ran directly on the sand itself. He wished to know, What steps the Admiralty were in the habit of taking for the purpose of collecting information on foreign stations respecting those changes which occurred from time to time, affecting the navigation of the waters, and also what means they adopted for disseminating that information among the officers of the Royal Navy? Although it appeared, in this instance, that Her Majesty's officers were unacquainted with the changes which had occurred, the merchant service were not ignorant of them; for he had seen in the newspapers a letter from a gentleman commanding a vessel stating that they were perfectly well known.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he was very glad that the noble Earl had put this question to him, as it enabled him to correct an error on the subject which was very generally prevalent, and into which it was not surprising that the noble Earl should have fallen, as it originated from a statement in the despatch of the Governor of New Zealand, Sir George Grey. In that despatch it was stated that the Orpheus
  "was intending to make the passage across the bar, as laid down in the chart of 1853. Since that time the bar has shifted about three-quarters of a mile to the northward. She was thus rather more than that distance too far to the southward."
  The loss of this fine vessel and so large a number of her gallant crew was, of course, a most painful calamity; but it would have been an additional source of deep affliction if it had been caused by any neglect on the part of the Admiralty in not communicating to the officers of the ship the changes which were known to have occurred in the harbour. So far, however,
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  was this from being the case that the change fron the chart of 1853 was brought to the notice of the Hydrographer's office in October, 1861, if not before. A notice was then drawn up, of which printed copies were sent to the senior officer on the Australian station to be distributed among the ships in that quarter. That notice contained the following observations:—
  "It appears from the Remark Book of Her Majesty's ship Niger, 1861, by Mr. A. J. Veitch, master, that since the survey by Captain Drury in 1859 the main channel at the entrance of Manukau Harbour has shifted; as also, that the code of signals noticed in the New Zealand Pilot, 2nd edition, 1859, established to assist the navigation of that port has been altered and improved. The following directions will therefore supersede those heretofore in use; but from the shifting nature of the entrance of Manukau Harbour, as also of all the bar harbours on the west coast of the north island, the seaman is cautioned to pay strict attention to directions that may be given from pilot stations; and it has been recommended as a general rule, in the absence of direct information of changes in the channels, that that portion which has the smoothest water between the breakers should be taken, as experience has proved that it will be the deepest part. The north side of the middle banks forming the southern boundary of the main channel to Manukau has extended to the northward since Captain Drury's survey in 1853; vessels, therefore, in crossing the bar of this harbour should bring the Nine Pin rock twice its base open to the southward of Paratutai, N.E. by E. ½ E., which will lead about a cable northward of the breakers."
  Thus seamen were first cautioned that the bar had shifted, and were also warned to pay attention to local information. When he first heard of the accident to the Orpheus, he was anxious to learn whether the officers had received the notice he had referred to. He therefore sent for the issue book kept in the Hydrographic Office, from which it appeared that the New Zealand notice was sent to Portsmouth on the 13th of November, 1861, and placed in No. 5 Australian chart box. On the 23rd of November the Orpheus drew this No. 5 box from the store at Portsmouth, and the receipt for it was in the Hydrographic Office at the Admiralty. In addition to this, it was probable that in taking the command of the station from Commodore Seymour in July, 1862, other copies, with all spare charts, would have been taken to the senior officer's ship. Moreover, he had seen an officer on Saturday who was saved from the wreck, and he believed he was correct in stating that the master of the Orpheus had a copy of the very notice in question in his hand at the time when the ship was approaching the bar. He

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  mentioned these circumstances only to justify the Admiralty, and to show that they were not chargable with neglect of duty. He would not go any further into the subject. Their Lordships were doubtless aware that the Orpheus, which drew above 20 ft. of water, was larger than most of the ships frequenting that coast, and be might observe that he had sent her out at the pressing instance of the Governor of New Zealand for a large and powerful vessel. The noble Earl had also asked what were the general orders of the Admiralty in regard to correcting charts. Those orders were very complete and peremptory, and appear in the printed instructions for masters. The master was directed to note all inaccuracies in any of the charts supplied to the ship, but especially in those published by the Admiralty, so that the requisite alterations might be presently made. If the position of the dangers was materially altered, or if he should discover any new dangers, or if the inaccuracies he might have detected in the charts were of importance, he was to report them immediately to the Admiralty by the very first opportunity, so that no time should be lost in making the necessary corrections. Again, when a hydrographic notice of a newly-discovered shoal, or rock, or other danger, or a notice to mariners of a new or altered light, buoy, beacon, or land mark was received on board, the master was at once to insert it in red ink in all the charts to which it referred (these being always enumerated at the foot of the notice), and to note the same in the sailing directions, reporting to the captain that he had so done. Further, all masters of Her Majesty's ships were required to report to the Secretary of the Admiralty through their captain the discovery of any new rock or shoal. The Governors of our Colonies and Consuls constantly sent information, and harbour-masters and merchant captains did the same. The Hydrographic Office was in constant correspondence with all parties who could furnish information in all parts of the world. As soon as it was received, if considered of fair authority, it was printed and circulated not only for the benefit of Her Majesty's ships, but of all navigators. He thought he had now shown that every care was taken to let the officers of the unfortunate vessel know the changes which had taken place in the harbour, He had only to add that there would, of course, be an inquiry into all the circumstances connected with
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  the loss of the ship, and then probably it would be ascertained how the vessel came to be lost. He could not omit bearing testimony to the gallant bearing of all on hoard, and of the crew of the vessel, who, seeing death coming upon them in all directions, still remained steadfast in the execution of their duty. Such conduct afforded a fine example of the courage and bravery of British seamen.

  THE PROJECTED VIADUCT OVER LUDGATE HILL.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, he wished to correct an erroneous statement he had made the other evening, on presenting a Petition respecting the proposed viaduct over Ludgate Hill. He then spoke under the impression that the Bill upon the subject was unopposed. He had since found that this project of the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company was warmly opposed by the Brighton and South Eastern Companies.
DRAINAGE OF LAND (IRELAND) BILL.

  (NO. 33.) REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to Order): (The Viscount Lifford.)
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE presented Petitions in favour of the Bill as it had been originally presented to their Lordships' House. For himself, he had very little objection to the measure in its present shape; but he was informed that it would never work.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the Secretary of the Treasury had communicated with the Irish Board of Works with reference to advances to be made to that Board. The question was a very difficult one, and no decision had yet been come to,
  VISCOUNT LIFFORDsaid, that in striking out the first part of the Bill, the Committee had occasioned great disappointment in Ireland. In moving that the Report be received, he greatly regretted the alterations that had taken place in the first clause. He was, however, still in hopes, that when the Bill went back to the House of Commons, the measure would undergo such an improvement as to render it acceptable to the people of Ireland.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he trusted his noble Friend (Viscount Lifford) would consent to postpone the

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  third reading of the Bill for a short time until the effect of the alterations made by the Committee could be more fully considered.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, that the difficulties which induced the Select Committee to reject the first part of this Bill were of a legal nature. He thought that some of the noble Lords who served on that Committee had no objection to the proposed scheme itself; and if his noble Friend would postpone the third reading of the Bill, some fresh clauses might be introduced which would enable that scheme to work.
  VISCOUNT LIFFORD, in reply, was understood to state that the difficulties alluded to were three, one related to the proposed award. He thought the Bill had better go back as it stood to the House of Commons.
  Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 50.)

  THIRD READING. BILL PASSED.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a: (The Duke of Newcastle.)
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that in the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act of last Session a clause was introduced to enable the guardians of the poor to recover from putative fathers the cost of maintenance of illegitimate children. That was the 10th clause. It was not clearly expressed, but he thought no doubt could he entertained of the intention of the Legislature. The clause provided that when oath should have been made before any two justices of petty sessions by the mother of any illegitimate child, and the same should have been supported by corroborative evidence, it should be lawful for the boards of guardians, by an order of affiliation, to recover the cost of maintenance of the child during the whole time he had been receiving relief, and such cost should be recoverable by process before the quarter sessions. Now, there could he no doubt that the intention of the Legislature as expressed in that clause was, that the order of affiliation should be made by the justices in petty sessions, and that the boards of guardians were to go to the sessions and then and there recover the cost of maintenance from the father of the child. It happened, however, that the Law Adviser of the Crown in Ireland took a
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  totally different view of the matter, and he expressed his opinion that the order of affiliation was to be made, not before the justices who were to take the oath of the woman, but at the quarter sessions, and a circular had been issued to the various boards of guardians directing them to take this course. That was an erroneous construction of the Act; and it was to carry out this erroneous view of the law adviser that this Bill had been introduced. It was quite a novelty in the annals of legislation that there should be something like a declaratory Act to give the effect of law to an erroneous construction of a clause in a previous Act.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, he could not agree with the view taken by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Chelmsford), that there could be no doubt of the meaning of the clause in the Act of last Session. On the contrary, it was because there was a doubt, and a substantial one, that the Bill had been introduced. It was all very well for the noble and learned Lord, in his place in Parliament, to say that the view of the Law Advisers of the Crown in Ireland was plainly erroneous. But when the opinion of the Law Officers was quite clear, the Government had nothing to do but to endeavour to settle the question by introducing a declaratory Bill. [Lord CHELMSFORD: The opinion of the Law Adviser.] He believed the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor General had been taken upon it. He would nut be positive, but he was strongly inclined to think so. Under those circumstances, there was nothing either irregular or un-Parliamentary in the Bill.
  VISCOUNT LIFFORDsaid, that the Select Committee on this Bill was composed of five Members of the Government, three of their supporters, and only four noble Lords from the Opposition side of the House. Their Lordships were told that lawyers were the best persons to decide the questions at issue under this Bill. But these questions were not questions of law, but questions of fact depending on the value of evidence and character of the witnesses. The chairman of quarter sessions in Ireland was a very different person from the same functionary in England. He was a barrister appointed by the Government, who could, and usually did, sit alone, and decide the matters before him. He saw no reason for removing these cases from those magistrates who, from their local knowledge, could weigh the evidence,

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  in order to saddle the boards of guardians with additional expense, He would move that the Bill be read a third time that day six months.
  Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and insert ("this Day Six Months.")
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that having served on the Committee, he was so far from approving the original provision that he had suggested an Amendment which had given it a different character. The judgment of the Law Officers of the Crown was, however, established in Ireland, and the present Bill had become necessary to declare the law.
  On Question, That ("now") stand Part of the Motion? Resolved in the Affirmative; Bill read 3a accordingly, with the Amendments, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

NAVAL COURTS OF INQUIRY.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKErose to put a Question to the First Lord of the Admiralty, in reference to Courts of Inquiry in Her Majesty's Service. The noble Earl said, that the matter was one of very considerable importance to the government of Her Majesty's navy—it involved a principle of public justice and morality especially bearing upon the naval service, and he was therefore certain that it would receive their Lordships' attention. He was not about to take this step in any spirit of hostility to the Government, and still less from any such feeling towards the Admiralty; he was actuated solely by his sense of duty as a naval officer, and by a desire to bring about an improvement in the system at present in operation. It was a most serious question. The administration of justice in the navy was fast verging upon despotism, in consequence of the manner in which the courts of justice were conducted in that service. The course pursued tended to sap the maintenance of discipline, by injuring the feelings of officers; whereas in these days, when public opinion was so free, and the whole question of public justice was open to the freest discussion, it was important, above all things, to take care that the administration of justice should be characterized by the utmost purity, and that there
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  should be no interference of a despotic description as to the free exercise of the powers of the courts. There were three modes in which justice had hitherto been administered in the naval profession. In the first place, it had frequently been the practice, where the supposed offence was not palpable, for the Admiralty to direct three officers on the spot to immediately institute an inquiry, and to ascertain if there was any ground for bringing the accused parties to a trial. These officers sat very much as a grand jury, taking one-sided evidence, and reporting to the Admiralty. That was the first mode of proceeding. There was then the court martial, the nature of which was well understood. A number of officers were appointed to form the court, and the accused was brought before them, and the case heard, the accused having an opportunity of examining and cross-examining witnesses, and offering his defence, and sentence was pronounced in accordance with the opinion of the officers forming the court. The Crown also possessed a power, which was never disputed in the navy, and was exercised of its own will and accord, in striking any officer off the list without being compelled to give any reason for that course. These were the modes in which the service had hitherto been managed. But of late a practice had grown up which appeared to him to require a check. It had become the practice to turn the preliminary court of inquiry into a court of trial and sentence, and for the Admiralty to take on themselves the power of setting aside the sentences of courts martial. A more independent tribunal than a naval court martial did not exist. The Admiralty, undoubtedly, had power to refer back the decision of a court martial; but to set aside its sentence, or itself to pronounce sentence where there had been no court martial, was a thing unheard of in law, though unfortunately not in practice. He felt quite certain that the high sense of justice entertained by the noble Duke at the head of that Department would not suffer him, where he was acquainted with the facts, to tolerate anything conflicting with individual right, or the interests of the service. In introducing this matter he felt he must place before their Lordships some case in which the objectionable practices had been pursued, and in which a despotic power had been exercised by the Admiralty, whereby the confidence of the ser-

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  vice in these courts martial had been destroyed, and which led to officers, when asked if they would be tried by a court martial, to answer differently to the manner in which they used formerly to do. He would therefore bring under their Lordships' notice one case, which would exhibit the defects of the present system of naval administration, and the necessity for making some change in the practice. On the 2nd of October, 1862, Her Majesty's ship Vigilant got ashore on the Gunfleet Shoal, at the mouth of the Thames, at the entrance of a very narrow channel, called the Swin. It was one of those accidents that would occasionally occur. A gale of wind was blowing at the time, and it was difficult, under the circumstances, to say whether any great blame attached to those in charge. The Admiralty directed a court of inquiry to be held at Sheerness, three officers of distinction being named for the purpose. They summoned the captain of the Vigilant before them; and having heard his statement, he was desired to withdraw, and never again appeared before the court, although the inquiry lasted five hours. He did not hear a single witness examined, nor was he permitted to cross-examine, or to put a question to, any of the ten witnesses who were examined. The investigation, in fact, was conducted without the presence of the officer whose conduct was to be inquired into. A few days after the inquiry terminated, Lord Elphinstone, the captain of the Vigilant, received what was called "a circular," which was a very short letter, not directed to himself, but conveying the following information, by way of memorandum: —
  "1. The Vigilant is to be placed in the 3rd division of the reserve at Sheerness. 2. The Lily is to be commissioned on the day following that in which the Vigilant may be put out of commission. 3. The lieutenants, officers of the civil branch, subordinate and warrant officers of the Vigilant will be turned over to the Lily."
  Not a word was said about the captain; but as a new captain was appointed to the Lily, the effect of the memorandum practically was to dismiss Lord Elphinstone from his ship without any appeal whatever. Nor was this all. In nine days afterwards this officer received a very severe censure, couched in the following terms: —
  "I am commanded by the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to acquaint you that they have had under their consideration the circumstances under which Her Majesty's ship Vigilant was run on shore on the Gunfleet Sand,
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  on the 22nd ultimo, with the various reports made to them on the subject. My Lords observe, that in a well-known channel, within a mile of the Gunfleet Light, and in the immediate neighbourhood of two buoys, the Vigilant was run upon a dangerous shoal, and narrowly escaped being totally lost. My Lords are aware that there was a pilot on board, but his presence did not absolve the commander and master of the ship from the duty of ascertaining by bearings and by reference to the sailing directions that the ship was not hazarded. I am therefore in receipt of their Lordships directions to signify to you and to Mr. Phillips, the master of the Vigilant, that my Lords consider your respective conduct in this matter to have been highly reprehensible, and deserving of their Lordships' severe censure."
  A more severe censure could not well be inflicted; yet the officer whose conduct was thus impugned had been tried, sentenced, and, he would add, executed in a manner unheard of in British jurisprudence. It would be said in reply, no doubt, that the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty believed him guilty of certain omissions, which he utterly denied; that he had not taken sufficient charge of the ship out of the hands of the pilot, and had not watched him sufficiently, which he also denied; and that they had given him the opportunity of a further trial by court martial if he desired it. That was quite true; but in what manner was the offer made? Lord Elphinstone, deeply wounded in his feelings, replied as follows: —
  "I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of this date, in which is stated the opinion of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty as to the circumstances attending the stranding of this vessel, in which they consider the conduct of Mr. Phillips, master, and myself to have been highly reprehensible, and deserving of I their Lordships' severe censure. As the reasoning by which this opinion was arrived at is unknown to me, I not having been allowed to be present at the court of inquiry (further than to give my own statement), am therefore not only totally ignorant of the statements made, but had no opportunity of questioning witnesses or of making any; defence, I must request you to move their Lordships to be pleased to grant that a court martial may be assembled to investigate the matter, feeling, as I do most strongly, that the severe reproof received is unmerited."
  The answer, which was conveyed in a memorandum—a system most painful and wounding to the feeling of an officer, was to this effect—
  "The Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty having had under their consideration your request for a court martial to be held to inquire into the circumstances under which Her Majesty's ship Vigilant, under your command, was run aground on the Gunfleet Sand, I am commanded by their Lordships to acquaint you, that before deciding upon your request, they forward for your perusal copy of the proceedings of the court of inquiry;

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  and they will receive from you any observations which you and the master of that ship may have to make on them, if, after a perusal of the evidence, you are of opinion that you can materially alter the facts proved, and that you are still desirous of being tried by court martial,"
  Thus, they offered a trial by court martial of the facts which they said had been proved. But what was an officer to do who knew that a court martial was as rotten as a court of inquiry? This arose from the Admiralty now undertaking to set aside the sentences of courts martial as useless and of no value. What had occurred only the other day? In the case of the Conqueror Captain Sotheby, the officer in command, was tried by court martial and acquitted; but the Admiralty set aside the finding, said that they would not acquit him, and that the court martial on the evidence ought to have found him guilty, and in addition the Admiralty censured him. So much for the respect in which a court martial was held by the Admiralty, and to which Lord Elphinstone was asked to appeal after he had been removed from his ship and severely censured by the Admiralty. It was no wonder, then, that Lord Elphinstone, under such circumstances, did not feel disposed to put himself to the additional torture of being tried by a court martial in which he could have no confidence. In this case of the Vigilant they had damaged a most valuable officer in the service—a man of unimpeachable character, who had served through the whole of the Crimean war with distinction to himself and honour to the service—an officer and a gentleman, who had displayed a mildness of temper and the most perfect forbearance throughout the correspondence he had had with the Admiralty. He knew it would be said that Lord Elphinstone was liable to severe censure because he had not followed out certain printed instructions which throw the responsibility on the captain, even though there was a pilot on board, and required him to watch the pilot and in some cases to interfere. What were those duties? According to the Articles of Instruction, chapter 19, article 7—
  "The captain is to order everything that relates to the navigation of the ship to be performed as the pilot shall require. But nevertheless he and the master are to attend particularly to his conduct; and if from his or the master's observations he shall have reason to believe the pilot not qualified to conduct the ship, or that he is running her into danger, he is to remove him from his charge, and to take such measures for the safety of the ship as circumstances may require."
  In this case nothing of the sort appeared.
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  The pilot was a man who had seen twenty years' service in the Thames and the channels leading to it, and the captain had no reason to suppose that he was not a competent man. He (the Earl of Hardwicke) himself commanded a frigate in the North Sea a few years ago, and he knew that the difficulties of this channel were such that when a ship was under canvas accidents might occur for which no blame should attach to any one; and it was because be knew this that he complained so much of the course which had been pursued towards Lord Elphinstone. Lord Elphinstone wrote again to the Admiralty, begging that some of the questions might be re-examined, and, in reply, he received this answer—
  "I am commanded by their Lordships to acquaint you that they do not consider any further investigation necessary to enable them to form a correct judgment in this case, since your statement leaves the material points of the ease unaltered.… My Lords, therefore, can see no cause for modifying their censure, or altering the opinion expressed by them Should you, however, after receiving this expression of their Lordships' opinion still desire a further investigation, my Lords will order you to be tried by a court martial."
  He could not conceive anything less encouraging than this letter or less likely to induce Lord Elphinstone to place himself in the hands of a court martial. Lord Elphinstone replied —
  "I regret, for the sake of the profession, that their Lordships deem it right to deprive an officer of his command, and to censure him severely, upon the private opinion of a court of inquiry, which refused him any opportunity of vindicating his reputation. A court martial can neither restore me to my ship, nor remove their Lordships' censure, and I shall therefore not deem it necessary to apply for further trial,"
  One would have supposed that a great Department would have been anxious to vindicate the character of an officer rather than to oppress him; but that was not the tone of the letter with which the Admiralty concluded the correspondence. Instead of adopting a high and dignified tone, they made this a quarrel with the officer. The answer sent to Lord Elphinstone by the Secretary was to this effect—
  "Admiralty, Dec. 3, 1862.
  "My Lord,—I have received and laid before my Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty your Lordship's letter of the 22nd ult.; and I am directed to acquaint you that they have read the same with much surprise and regret; since, after having been informed by their Lordships that they had formed their opinion after a careful review of all the facts of the case, you now assume that

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  their judgment has been based on a private opinion of a court of inquiry, which refused you any opportunity of vindicating your character. My Lords consider your letter as highly objectionable in its tone. I am, my Lord, your Lordship's most obedient servant.
  C. PAGET."
  Objectionable in tone ! Why, Lord Elphinstone had throughout conducted his correspondence with temper and courtesy, and in a manner which was honourable to him in every way. The man who had been so treated was, he contended, an insulted man and an ill-used officer. He should therefore call upon the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty, who he was well aware entertained a high sense of justice, to vindicate the course which his Department bad thought fit to adopt in the case. The character of the officer he would leave in the hands of the public.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, he would go at once to the main point of the case of the Vigilant, and the conduct of Lord Elphinstone. He must utterly dissent from the statement of the noble Earl that the Admiralty had made a quarrel with Lord Elphinstone, So far from having any inclination to quarrel with Lord Elphinstone, he entertained towards him, from what he had seen of his gentlemanly conduct and bearing, no other feeling than one of prepossession in his favour. Their Lordships, too, might easily imagine that he would not be the less disposed to do justice to an officer because he happened to have influential connections, by whom any wrong done him might be pressed upon the attention of the House. The fact was that the Admiralty had dealt with Lord Elphinstone as they would have, under similar circumstances, done with any other officer in the service, and had not deemed him, because of his social position, entitled to any especial favour. The facts of the case, as it had been submitted for the decision of the Admiralty, were very simple. On the 22nd of October the Vigilant ran aground on the Gunfleet Sand, which was so well known to be a dangerous spot that the Trinity House had placed a light on it, as well as buoys in its vicinity. Nowithstanding the warning furnished by the light-house and the buoys, however, the vessel was run on the sand. He had a chart which showed exactly where the Vigilant was, and how she ran aground. The sailing directions, he might add, were most explicit in the cautions which they supplied with regard to the place. They pointed out the proper anchorage, and in short gave all the requi-
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  site information to enable the commander of a ship to avoid danger. It was quite true, as the noble Earl had stated, that there was a pilot on board the vessel in question; but the pilot could neither read nor write. The commander and the master of the ship nevertheless trusted implicitly to his guidance, and never consulted either the chart or the sailing directions. If they had done so, and had taken the hearing of the light-house, it would have been impossible for them to have run upon the shoal. It was often said of yachting men that they were very careless on the coast, and that they went about knowing nothing and fearing nothing, but he did not believe any yachting man sailing his own yacht would sail so close to the light-house as to run on the Gunfleet Sand. Such as he had stated were the facts of the case as they had been laid before the Board of Admiralty, and they had taken the course which seemed to them to be the proper one under the circumstances. In grave cases in which a vessel happened to be lost, it was usual to appoint a court martial, and in ordinary cases it was the practice to institute a court of inquiry. Nor was the practice, as the noble Earl seemed to think, a new one, as he would find by a reference to a book relating to naval and military courts martial, a fourth edition of which was published be long ago as 1813. This book was entitled The Principles and Practice of Naval and Military Courts Martial by John McArthur; it contained a long chapter on courts of inquiry. There was, besides, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the Navy, which was published in 1861, and which made mention of courts of inquiry as sanctioned by judicial recognition in the courts of common law. The courts of inquiry were of two kinds—one preliminary, to see if there was any ground for summoning a court martial; and when the result of the preliminary inquiry was thought sufficient for the purpose of the case, it was not always deemed necessary to order a subsequent court martial. He could quote a number of instances to show that on distant stations courts of inquiry had been summoned in the smaller class of cases, and that having examined into the matters brought before them, they pronounced an opinion upon them upon which the Admiralty came to a decision. Proceeding upon that principle, a court of inquiry had been held on board the Formidable on the 27th of October,

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  which was composed of three captains of high standing. They heard the evidence of the commander of the vessel—Lord Elphinstone—of the master, the pilot, and others; and having heard them, they made up their mind upon the subject of the investigation, and reported that they considered the commander as well as the master deserving of blame. The Admiralty, having gone into the question with the chart before them, which clearly showed how the case stood, were satisfied with the finding. The evidence of Lord Elphinstone himself, indeed, went to show that he had not given that attention which an officer should give to the course which his vessel was pursuing. There could not be a clearer case of neglect. Lord Elphinstone had been to some extent tried, and he therefore knew exactly the charge against him; and after receiving the letter from the Admiralty blaming him, he, in the first instance, demanded a court martial. The Admiralty then sent him the whole proceedings, and the evidence, and everything that had been said against him; and they said to Lord Elphinstone, that if, after the perusal of the evidence and the proceedings, he was still desirous of having a court martial, the Board would order it at once. What did Lord Elphinstone do? Immediately he received this information he withdrew his demand for a court martial, and, with more judgment than he showed with regard to the shoal, he declined further investigation. He said he did not wish to have a court martial; but not satisfied with that, he now appealed to the House of Lords. He (the Duke of Somerset) did not think that that House was a convenient place for officers who had been censured to come and have their characters whitewashed. He knew that in former times it was said to be the practice at the Admiralty to take all blame off captains because they were gentlemen of position in society, and to throw it upon the masters; but although that was the common practice in years past, he did not consider it a just one, because clearly the proper course was for captains to bear their fair share of responsibility as to the management of the ship. He considered that the captain, as well as the master, was responsible where there was any case of gross neglect; and, in his opinion, this was a case of gross neglect, for the misfortune happened in open day, within half a mile of the light-house, and on a well-known shoal. The consequence was, that
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  the Vigilant was eleven hours ashore, and was so much injured that when taken to Sheerness the Admiralty was informed she was not fit to go to sea. He thought, that when they had to send a vessel in place of, the one which had been damaged by the carelessness and neglect of her captain, they did quite right in appointing another captain, and that was a course which he was prepared to defend. The noble Earl (the Earl of Hardwicke) said they had over ruled the decisions of courts martial and referred to the case of the Conqueror, where the court decided that the blame attached to the master, and not to the captain. The, Admiralty looked at the Instructions, and finding that in the last edition some words were left out, which did not leave it as clear as in the old Instructions that the captain was deemed responsible for the conduct of the vessel, they had the Instructions reprinted, thus giving all captains notice that they were held responsible for the safety of their ships. He could only say, that if the Admiralty were bound to take care of Her Majesty's ships, they could not allow captains to go about as if they were irresponsible, and when an accident happened, to throw all the blame on the master. That was what happened in the case of the Conqueror, and the Admiralty did well to point out that captains were responsible for the safety of their ships. As the noble Earl had brought the case of Lord Elphinstone before the House of Lords, he was obliged to repeat, that when he looked into the case most carefully, with the assistance of a number of officers, there was no difference of opinion that there had been great neglect and great inattention on the part of Lord Elphinstone in running the ship on this shoal, and putting the country to the expense of repairs, and to the inconvenience of sending another vessel, at a moment's notice, in consequence of that miscarriage.
  THE MARQUESS TOWNSHENDsaid, he was very decidedly of opinion that Lord Elphinstone had received very hard treatment. He knew Lord Elphinstone, and he knew him to be a most deserving and very excellent officer. The ship was run ashore when in the hands of the pilot; and if, having a qualified pilot on board, Lord Elphinstone had taken the command out of the pilot's hands, he would deserve to be broken—at least, that was what was understood to be the old rule of the service.
  LORD COLCHESTERdiffered from the

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  noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty in reference to what he had said about Courts of inquiry, he said that courts of inquiry were of old standing; and so they were, but only for the purpose of conducting preliminary investigations. He had himself sat upon a court of inquiry, and he did not think that the tribunal was one very well qualified to bring out the whole truth. There was considerable difference between a court of inquiry and a court martial. In a court of inquiry the witnesses were not examined upon oath, and were not cross-examined. In courts martial the witnesses were examined upon oath and cross-examined, the proceedings were conducted in the presence of the accused; and the trial was as fair as a trial in a court of law. The officers composing them were the senior officers who by chance were on the station, and were not chosen, as those who composed courts of inquiry, by the Admiralty. He was very much opposed to any officer or man being tried by a court of inquiry, instead of by court martial.
  THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, that in pilot water, where captains were not expected to have local knowledge, the charge of the vessel was given to the pilot, and the captain was bound not to interfere, unless he was convinced that the pilot was unfit for his duty. In this case the pilot in charge was one of a select body, who had undergone the strictest examination, and it would be a bold captain indeed who would take the command out of such a pilot's hands at the mouth of the Thames. The noble Duke had gone into the whole case of Lord Elphinstone in replying to general observations upon certain tribunals and had thought proper to condemn that officer as having been guilty of impropriety and misconduct as a naval officer. In meeting a charge of mismanagement of courts of justice, the noble Duke had condemned the unfortunate officer who had been convicted before an incompetent tribunal. He knew very little of the case of Lord Elphinstone, and in using an illustration in his speech he never meant to draw upon Lord Elphinstone's head the censure of the First Lord of the Admiralty before the House of Lords. Had he imagined such would be the result, he certainly would never have mentioned it at all; but now be confidently appealed to their Lordships for their opinion whether justice had been done to Lord Elphinstone. ["Hear!"] If that cheer was intended to assert that justice had been done, he was quite sure that
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  it did not come from the heart of the noble Lord who uttered it.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was not acquainted with the particulars of the case before he came into the House; but having heard the discussion that had taken place, he was of opinion that Lord Elphinstone was an ill-used man—but that he was ill-used not by the Admiralty, but by his noble and gallant Friend who had brought the case before their Lordships, and who brought it forward, not in a singularly moderate or temperate speech, but in a speech in which he had almost exhausted vituperative epithets against the Admiralty, accusing them of despotism and injustice. The noble Earl made these charges, too, upon a case which he afterwards told their Lordships he knew nothing about. Speaking not as a professional man but as a civilian, he (Earl Granville) could conceive nothing more fair, more courteous, and he would say more considerate than the conduct of the Admiralty in this matter. The noble Earl said it was wrong to refer the case to a court of inquiry. That was an attack against the institution, but the noble Duke had stated, and no one had disputed the fact, that courts of inquiry had existed, and had been constantly employed for years past. It appeared, upon the evidence of Lord Elphinstone himself, that that officer had been guilty of neglect in running his ship upon the shoal and when the noble Earl said that a great deal of harm was not done to the ship, surely that was not a point that affected the question in the slightest degree. A censure was accordingly passed upon him by the Board of Admiralty. Feeling hurt at this result, the noble and gallant officer demanded a court martial, as he had a perfect right to do if he thought he had suffered an injustice. He thought that part of the noble and gallant officer's letter which the noble Earl had read to their Lordships showed very clearly the considerate conduct of the Admiralty, for they sent the evidence on the subject to the noble and gallant officer, and asked him to peruse it before he pressed his request for a court martial. It was not insinuated that the noble Duke had any objection to granting a court martial, and in suggesting a reason why the noble and gallant officer did not continue his application for one, the noble Earl opposite cast something like an aspersion on the members of a most honourable profession. He always understood that a court martial

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  administered justice, and he did not know to what other court such a case could be referred. The noble and gallant officer, on reflection, did not deem it advisable to pursue his request for a court martial; and if he had any reason for complaint, it was nut against the Admiralty, but against his zealous and extremely injudicious Friend, who had brought forward the case in such a way as to compel the noble Duke the First Lord to make disclosures which certainly told against an officer who otherwise held a high character in the service.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he had no personal acquaintance with Lord Elphinstone, and knew nothing of any of the parties concerned, nor was he able to judge of the degree of responsibility which, under the circumstances described, attached to the gallant officer the captain, the master, or the mate of the Vigilant. But the noble Duke and the noble Earl who had just spoken had passed over that which seemed to him an important part of his noble and gallant Friend's complaint, and that which seemed to him the pith of the whole grievance—namely, that Lord Elphinstone had been tried, condemned, and censured, and the censure had been carried into effect, by a tribunal before which he had no opportunity of confronting or cross-examining witnesses. The noble Duke said there was nothing new in courts of inquiry, and upon that subject the noble Duke spoke with more authority than he could; but be apprehended, that while there was nothing unusual in appointing a court of inquiry as a preliminary measure, there was a great deal that was unusual in condemning upon the evidence taken before a court of inquiry, and not upon oath, a person who had had no opportunity of asking questions of the witnesses or making observations on the case. There was something wholly inconsistent with the popular idea of justice and fair-pay in such a course. Nothing could be closer or more correct than the analogy which had been drawn between a court of inquiry and a grand jury. Both proceeded on ex parte evidence, but no one ever proposed that a man should be convicted on the finding of a grand jury without being sent to a petty jury, where he could cross-examine witnesses and make his defence. The noble Duke said it frequently happened that the Admiralty were satisfied with the finding of a court of inquiry, and did not press the matter further. In the same way, when a grand jury ignored a Bill, the prisoner was
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  not put upon his trial; and in a case where the court of inquiry negatived the charge brought before them, there was no occasion for further proceedings. But in this case the Admiralty had upon an ex parte statement proceeded to dismiss an officer from his command with a severe censure. Upon this, the officer expressed surprise and regret that such a hasty decision should have been formed with regard to his conduct, and requested a court martial. Was this request acceded to? No; but the Admiralty met the complaint that the accused had not had an opportunity of cross-examining witnesses by sending him a report of the proceedings of an inquiry at which he had not been present, and calling upon him, in the first instance, to give his explanation upon that case. Part of the answer of Lord Elphinstone was a vindication of his conduct; but in another part he absolutely denied some of the material facts which appeared to have been stated by some of the witnesses. The Admiralty wrote buck that they had received the answer, that they found no sort of reason for altering their opinion, that they still considered his conduct open to the censure they had passed; but that if, alter that expression of opinion, Lord Elphinstone chose to be tried by a court martial, having been already tried, convicted, and condemned, he was at liberty to have a court martial, with the weight of the decision of the Board of Admiralty against him. He (the Earl of Derby) did not wonder that, under these circumstances, the offer was refused. He agreed with the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Townshend), and he believed the opinion was shared by nine-tenths of their Lordships' House, that Lord Elphinstone had in this case been hardly dealt with, and that it was contrary to the principles of British justice to condemn a man upon the finding of a tribunal before which he had had no opportunity of defending himself.
  EARL RUSSELLsaid, the noble Earl had omitted what appeared to him a most material point in the case. The noble Earl had complained of the, hardship of condemning a man unheard upon statements made before a court of inquiry; but had admitted that the whole of the objection would have been met had a court martial been granted by the Admiralty. The only complaint, therefore, in this case was that the Board of Admiralty, instead of granting the court martial at once, had said to the gallant officer, "It may not be for

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  your interest to have a court martial, and we send you the proceedings before the court of inquiry,"
  THE EARL OF DERBY: Where do they say it is not for his interest?
  EARL RUSSELLsaid, what they actually did was to send the proceedings before the court of inquiry for Lord Elphinstone to read in order to judge whether, having the evidence before him, he still thought It for his interest to be tried by a court martial. This put an end altogether to the charge that the gallant officer was condemned without having an opportunity of seeing, or cross-examining, the witnesses, for he might have had that opportunity had he chosen. But Lord Elphinstone deliberately, and perhaps very judiciously, having read these proceedings, said he would not ask for a court martial. The only conclusion that he (Earl Russell), under the circumstances, could draw, was, that Lord Elphinstone did not think it for his interest to proceed further with the case—that he felt that the evidence would go against him, and that the sentence of a court martial would be more injurious to his reputation than the sentence of the court of inquiry. Had he gone before a court martial, he would, of course, have been able to cross-examine witnesses, and to bring forward evidence on his own side. He did not dispute the analogy between a grand jury and a court of inquiry; but he might remind their Lordships, that if, after the finding of the grand jury, a prisoner thought proper to defend himself, he pleaded not guilty, and was tried before the petty jury; but if, feeling that the evidence before the grand jury was sufficient to convict, he preferred pleading guilty, no proceedings were taken before the petty jury. It seemed to him that there was something like pleading guilty in withdrawing a request for a court martial after an adverse decision from a court of inquiry.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that the analogy drawn between courts of inquiry and grand juries was perfectly correct; but he would ask the noble Earl who had last spoken in what a position would a man he placed when brought to the bar to be tried, after having a true bill returned against him, if the Judge were to say to him, "I have read over all these depositions, and I am clearly of opinion that the accusation is made out completely against you; but if you like, after this expression of my opinion, you may plead 'not guilty,' and take your trial?" That was just the
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  position of Lord Elphinstone. When that noble Lord demanded a court martial, it was quite clear that the demand ought to have been immediately complied with; but, instead of that, the Board of Admiralty sent to the noble Lord the proceedings of the court of inquiry, the greater part of which took place in Lord Elphinstone's absence and without his having an opportunity of examining any witness, and asked for the noble Lord's observations with respect to them. Lord Elphinstone made his observations and forwarded them to the Admiralty, and then an answer was returned stating that the Lords of the Admiralty saw no cause for modifying their censure; but that if Lord Elphinstone, after receiving this expression of opinion, desired further investigation, the Lords of the Admiralty would order him to be tried by court martial. What must have been Lord Elphinstone's impression of the probable result of the proceeding, especially when it appeared that in one instance which had been mentioned in the House the Admiralty had thought proper not to adopt an acquittal pronounced by a court martial? He thought Lord Elphinstone was perfectly justified in saying, "A court martial can never restore me to my ship, nor remove their Lordship's censure, and I shall, therefore, not feel it necessary to apply for another trial." He thought that a very harsh course of conduct had been pursued towards an officer who appeared to be highly deserving, and he did not think that the noble Duke had given a satisfactory explanation when challenged to justify the proceedings of the Admiralty.
  LORD CRANWORTHsaid, that as regarded the general question, he was of opinion, that although personally perhaps Lord Elphinstone had no right to complain of the course pursued, the system was such that the sooner it was abandoned the better. It was idle to suppose, that after the decision against him in a court of inquiry, an officer could be fairly tried by another tribunal. The finding of a grand jury did not, in any way, prejudice the accused, because it was known to be come to upon ex parte evidence; but when a person had been allowed to make his defence and a judgment had been pronounced against him, it was impossible that his case could come to a fair investigation afterwards. Having expressed his disapprobation of the general system, he must say in justice to the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty that all

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  he had done had been done in mercy and kindness to Lord Elphinstone.
  LORD DENMANwas understood to express his belief, that if Lord Elphinstone now desired a court martial, the inquiry would, after the discussion which had just taken place, be conducted in a manner different from that in which it otherwise might have been.

  OFFICE OF SECRETARY AT WAR ABOLITION BILL.
  Bill read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Thursday next; (The Earl De Grey.) (No. 71.)
  OATHS RELIEF IN CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Bill read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 72.)
  NEW ZEALAND BOUNDARIES BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to alter the Boundaries of New Zealand —Was presented by the Duke of NEWCASTLE, and read 1a. (No. 73).

  OFFENCES (SOUTH AFRICA) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for the Prevention and Punishment of Offences committed by Her Majesty's Subjects in South Africa—Was presented by the Duke of NEWCASTLE, arid read 1a. (No. 74.)
  House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow a quarter before Five o'clock.