Sitting of 9 May 1862

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Peace Preservation (Ireland); Poor Law Officers' Superannuations (Ireland); British Museum.

MERCHANT SHIPPING AMENDMENT BILL.—QUESTION.
LORD HOTIIAMsaid, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson), When he intended to proceed with this Bill?
MR. MILNER GIBSONin reply said, that it was arranged that the Committee of Supply that evening should not go beyond ten or half-past ten o'clock, when he would proceed with the Merchant Shipping Acts Amendment Bill.
LORD HOTHAMsaid, that he understood the right hon. Gentleman to state last night that he would inform the House this evening when he would bring the Bill forward, but he had not the slightest idea that it would come before the House that evening. He acted under that impression, and communicated with some Members of the House, who were absent in consequence of his statement.
MR. LOCKEsaid, he was not present when the right hon. Gentleman made his statement, but he was under the impression from what he read that the noble Lord (Lord Hotham) was correct.
MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, that he had communicated with the noble Lord at the head of the Government, and the arrangement which he mentioned was decided on. However, under the circumstances, he would not bring the measure forward that evening.

VISIT OF M. MERCIER TO RICHMOND, UNITED STATES.—QUESTION.
SIR JAMES DUKEsaid, he rose to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he can afford any information of the object of the French Minister proceeding from Washington to Richmond?
MR. LAYARD: I fear, Sir, I can give no other answer to my hon. Friend than this, that, so far as Her Majesty's Government is informed, M. Mercier went to Richmond without any instruction whatever from his own Government. I may add, however, that his visit has been attended by no political results whatever.

REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS AND DEATHS IN IRELAND.—QUESTION.
GENERAL UPTONsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether the present force of Police Constabulary in Ireland will be sufficient for the purpose of Registering Births and Deaths under the contemplated measure of the Government?
SIR ROBERT PEEL: The present Constabulary Force, I apprehend, will be perfectly adequate to carry out the provisions of the Bill.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

RESERVED LIST OF THE NAVY.

  RESOLUTIONS.
  SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he rose to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, To lay upon the table of the House a copy of the form of commission promoting the first-named ninety officers on the reserved list of Her Majesty's Navy to the rank of captain; and also a copy of the form of commission promoting the last two officers on that list to the rank of captain, with any explanation there may have been for the necessity of changing the form of commission; also a return of the names and pay or other emoluments of the first sixteen captains on the reserved list; and to move that the case of the reserved captains be referred to the law officers of the Crown? His reason for asking for the production of these papers was, that in 1851, the retired list of the nary being overcrowded, and a great difficulty experienced in promoting younger officers to the rank of captain, the then First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir Francis Baring) framed a new reserved list and persuaded certain officers of old and distinguished service to accept that promotion. There would have been no difficulty in placing those officers on the retired list of captains if they had been inclined to go there, and there would have been no difficulty in promoting such officers; but they were of too great an age for the country to expect much benefit from their services, although at the same time they were entitled to claim promotion from their long and faithful service. An Order in Council was issued which
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  induced those officers to accept this promotion. All those officers were men of distinguished service, and had claims to the consideration of the country. There were two forms of commission in the navy. One was for officers on the retired list, who were not entitled to expect promotion or increased pay, and one for officers on the reserved list, who were entitled to expect promotion up to the rank of captain, and all the advantages accruing to officers of similar standing, except service afloat. The latter had a right to expect the increase of 2s. per diem which was granted to officers of their standing after a certain length of service; but the Admiralty had not admitted their claims, although, with the exception of two or three officers who had accepted commissions under a reserved form, the commissions of these officers upon the reserved list were identical with those of officers upon the active list. He wished to have a return of the pay and emoluments of the first sixteen officers upon the reserved list, because they were entitled, not only to 2s. a day additional, but also to be placed upon the retired list at 18 s. per diem; while, in fact, of those sixteen officers, none received more than 13 s., and some only 10 s. 6d. a day. A case had been brought under his notice, to which he would direct the attention of the House. The widow of Commander Bowden claimed the pension to which she was entitled, but was refused by the Admiralty. The answer she got from the Admiralty was, that her husband being a lieutenant on the retired list of commanders, she was not entitled to a higher pension than had been awarded to her. Now, how a lieutenant could be on the retired list of commanders, he (Sir J. Hay) could not understand. However, upon urgent representations being made, the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty at length did this lady justice, and she was now in the receipt of the pension. The noble Lord was tenderhearted to the widow, but he still refused the claims of the ninety officers which had been urged by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich and others of authority. All he (Sir J. Hay) required was, that the question should be referred to the law officers of the Crown to decide the matter, and he trusted that the Government would place a generous construction upon the terms of the arrangement made with those deserving officers.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, the case of the Reserved Captains of Her Majesty's Navy should be referred to the Law Officers of the Crown,"
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. BAILLIE COCHRANEsaid, he would second the Motion. On the two occasions last year when he brought the question under the notice of the House, the Secretary to the Admiralty opposed him; but he hoped that the noble Lord would be inclined now to take another view of the matter. It was a case simply of justice, and it was not well that impressions should get abroad that officers had been led to make an arrangement prejudicial to their interests upon a statement of the Admiralty which was liable to misconstruction.
  MAJOR EDWARDSwould entreat the noble Lord, the Secretary to the Admiralty, to reconsider the vote which he had given on the last occasion that this subject was brought forward, and do justice to these unfortunate officers. As a civilian he felt some diffidence in saying anything on that which might be considered purely a naval question; and as it had on so many previous occasions been brought under the consideration of the House, and rejected by such trifling majorities, it was quite unnecessary for him to go into its merits. It was simply a question of justice or injustice to a hundred naval officers, who had served their country well in the hour of her need, and who had accepted the commissions which they now held with the full impression that they should lose nothing, either in pay or promotion; in fact, that they would rise by seniority to the flag. The commissions of these hundred Captains on the reserved list were identical with those on the active list, and in the majority of instances their rank has been conferred for very distinguished services in time of war. The only way in which they differed from the post-captains on the active list was their non-liability to be called upon to serve afloat, except under extraordinary circumstances—threatened invasion, &c. A precisely analogous case to this had taken place in the army. Two years ago, the hon. and gallant Member for Wigan had moved for a Committee to inquire into the question of pay of a number of officers of the army, who, hav-
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  ing retired upon half-pay, were placed on a retired list, simply for the purpose of making room for others, and having obtained promotion in course of time, were refused the pay of their increased rank. Their extra pay had since been granted, and this should be considered a precedent in favour of those meritorious officers whose interests they were now advocating. He (Major Edwards) hoped the Admiralty might be induced to pursue a similar course upon the present occasion, which would obviate the necessity for these repeated remonstrances on the part of a large section of the House as to the gross injustice under which the gallant body of men were at present suffering.
  ADMIRAL WALCOTTsaid, he also supported the claim of those officers. He would entreat his noble and gallant Friend, in the name of humanity, for the credit of the service and the honour of the country, to reconsider this subject, and to give the officers in question the benefit to which they were entitled.
  MR. C. F. BERKELEYsaid, he had filled the office of private secretary to one of the Lords of the Admiralty at the time when the order was issued, and his attention had therefore been naturally directed to the claim of those officers. He did not, however, regard their claims in the light in which they had been presented to the House by other hon. Members. The description of the list was, he admitted, rather unfortunate; but still it was a stereotyped form, and he did not think that any reasonable construction of it could entitle these officers on the retired list to the advantages which were claimed for them. Moreover, it would be unfair to some officers on the active list, if those on the reserved list were dealt with as the hon. and gallant Member for Wakefield had urged. If they looked at the position and prospects of those officers in 1851, before the Order in Council was signed, they would find that most of them were the old war first lieutenants, and he doubted whether, if a return of their sea services as commanders afloat were called for, it would be found that they averaged twelve months' service. Of these ninety-five officers, he thought only twenty-five had served afloat as commanders. Of these twenty-five only fifteen had been in command; the other ten served as commanders in line-of-battle ships, principally flagships in harbour or guardships of the ordinary; forty-five had served in the Coastguard or in

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  the Transport service, or in what they called long shore berths, such as naval rendezvous for raising men, or in superintending packets; and the remaining twenty-five had never served a single day in any Capacity, either afloat or on shore, since they were lieutenants. The majority of these would be receiving 18 s. and 20 s. a day, while post-captains on the active list only received 10 s. 6d. or perhaps 12 s. 6d. a day.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, that the subject had so often been discussed in the House that he felt he need not then enter into its various details. He had, however, to make a statement which would, he believed, for ever set the question at rest. In consequence of the many opinions expressed as to the claims of the captains of the reserved list, his noble Friend the Duke of Somerset had referred their case to the law officers of the Crown. The law officers had gone very carefully into the whole merits of the case; they had done so in deference to opinions that had been expressed by other high legal authorities, who had given a verdict in favour of the claims of the officers of the reserved list. It was not usual, as the House was aware, to give publicity to the confidential opinions of the law officers of the Crown; he would not therefore read any portions of that opinion, except one short sentence. It stated—
  "In our opinion, the Board of Admiralty have taken a correct view of the position and rights of the commanders promoted to be captains on the reserved list, and such officers are not to be regarded as officers on the active list, so as to be capable of rising to the higher scale of half-pay, provided under the Order of Council of 1851."
  He felt in a very delicate position with regard to this matter. These gentlemen were brother officers of his own, and he naturally felt a sympathy for them. At one time he felt there was some grievance in their case, but having had the opportunity of going very carefully over the whole of the case, and the correspondence on it, he was bound to say he agreed with the opinion of the law officers of the Crown. Having stated that opinion, he believed the House would think it better he should not go into all the details. It was very desirable that these lists should be simplified, and that there should no longer be such various classes of retirements. But the House should remember that these lists were remnants of the old war, and, desirable as the object was, there were no means of putting them on a better footing as long as the old officers were living. In reply to
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  the question of the hon. and gallant Member for Wakefield, he would state that there was no objection to lay on the table the two forms of commissions the hon. Member had referred to. It had been the practice to give commissions when officers, were either promoted to rank or appointed to a ship, and on each commission an officer had to pay a stamp duty of 5s. In future there was to be one form of commission for each class of officers in the navy, whether on the active, reserved, or retired list. That commission would constitute the officer's legal rank in the navy, and appointments to a ship would be made by letter. That was the history of the late Order in Council respecting commissions, and it had nothing to do with reserved officers as distinct from active officers. His hon. and gallant Friend asked for a return of the names and pay or other emoluments of the first sixteen captains on the reserved list. It would be inviduous to give the first sixteen names, but there would be no objection to-give the whole of the names in the list. It was perfectly true that they were not receiving as much as the captains who had been twenty years on the active list, and, being above fifty-five years of age, were entitled to a retirement of 18 s. 6d. a day; but it must be borne in mind that the latter were officers who had served their time as commanders, while most of the officers on the reserved list had not served as commanders at all, and they were not entitled to be put in the same position as officers on the active list. The last part of the Motion he could not consent to, and he hoped the House would support him in resisting it. The hon. and gallant Gentleman and others proposed, on a former occasion, that the case of the reserved captains be referred to the law officers of the Crown. The case had been referred to the law officers, and he had given, as far as he could, a rèsumè of their opinion. He had received a letter from a distinguished officer on the active list, who earnestly entreated him not to accede to the Motion of the hon. and gallant Member, as it would seriously reflect, he said, on many old officers as well as himself. If they were to be in the game position as reserved officers, he hoped that his hon. and gallant Friend would remember, that if by a Vote of the House the reserved officers were put on the same footing with active list, it would have the effect of damaging seventy officers out of the ninety-five who were on that

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  list, because they must cease to receive the extra pay they were now receiving for long service. He was quite sure that, taking that view, his hon. and gallant Friend would do right to allow the question to rest, and not further lead these old officers to believe that they had any just claims to be placed upon an equality with active officers in the service.
  COLONEL TALBOTsaid, that he could not understand why the Admiralty should refuse to concede the just claims of the meritorious officers whose case had been so repeatedly brought before the House. If the question remained as it was at present, it would still continue a bugbear, and the officers would consider that they had not had justice done to them. He wanted to know the reasons on which that justice had been refused. The Admiralty ought to have consulted the law officers upon the question when it was first brought forward; but having at length done so, he did not see why the officers could not be told the reasons why the claim had been refused. If the Motion were pressed to a division, he should certainly support it.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he considered that the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty had taken a very proper course in submitting the matter to the law officers. The fact was, the claim depended entirely upon the construction of the Order in Council. He had always considered that order very doubtful in respect to its wording, and he should have been prepared to have voted for the Motion had it not been for the statement of the Government that the matter had been submitted to the law officers, and they had decided that the proper construction of the Order in Council operated against the claims of the officers in question. He quite agreed that it was contrary to the practice of the House to call upon the Government to produce the opinions of their law officers, which were private and confidential documents; and, indeed, he could easily conceive that such a course would be highly inconvenient. Under these circumstances, therefore, and however sorry he might be for the individuals who suffered by it, he thought his hon. and gallant Friend must arrive at the conclusion that he had done all he could for them, and that the matter must be allowed to rest.
  MR. MALINSsaid, the subject was in an unsatisfactory position, and it had
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  not been improved by the speech of the right hon. Baronet. He had heard the right hon. Baronet on several occasions express his opinion that those officers had been ill-treated, and that the construction of the document was in their favour, but the right hon. Baronet now advised them to give way, because the opinion of the law officers had been taken, and their opinion was against them. He had the most profound respect for the opinions, of the law officers, but he should like to see the statement of the case upon which it was based. On the last occasion when the subject was discussed the right hon. Baronet the Member for Portsmouth said his meaning was different from that which had been put upon the order; but it was a clear principle of law, that when any one was induced to act upon a written document, the question was not what was the intention of the framer, but what idea was conveyed to the minds of those who were induced to act upon it. There was a conflict of opinion upon the construction of the document. He believed that his learned Friend Mr. Lush, than whom no one was more competent to give an opinion, was directly opposed to the law officers of the Crown. Any opinion might be obtained according as the facts were stated; and if the opinion of the law officers was to be binding, it should be given upon a case submitted to, and settled by the advisers of the reserved captains. He expressed no opinion of his own; but as these gentlemen could not submit the question to any tribunal, he thought the Admiralty ought not to put their own construction upon the order, and refuse all redress. He suggested that the opinion of the law officers of the Crown should be taken on a statement of the facts drawn up to the satisfaction of the Government and the officers, or, better still, that the case should be submitted to the Privy Council or such other tribunal as might be agreed upon by both parties. The question might thus be finally disposed of.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he should not have risen, as he certainly did not intend to take the unprecedented and inconvenient course of entering into a vindication of the opinion given by the law officers of the-Crown. His hon. and learned Friend, however, had rather inconsiderately thrown out an idea that the Government had submitted to the officers of the Crown a garbled statement.
  MR. MALINS: I said nothing of the kind. What I said was, that there might have been the omission of facts which the officers themselves would have wished to have stated.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he accepted the explanation, and would state that the course taken by the Government was, to lay before the law officers all the documents which contained the statements of the officers themselves, the Order in Council, and the other papers, upon the proper construction of which their case depended, in order that they might speak for themselves. Whether their opinion was right or wrong, it was formed upon a clear view of the legal meaning of the document on which the retirement was granted.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he wished to ask, whether the opinion of the Lord Chancellor had been taken on the point, because he believed that the opinion of that high functionary was wholly opposed to that of the Solicitor General. The officers, who had been unjustly treated, were officers who had seen more service than any officers had seen since the peace of 1815. He thought it disgraceful that the Government should refuse the paltry sum that was claimed.
  MR. COLLINSsaid, he was of opinion, that after what had fallen from the hon. and learned Solicitor General, the Motion should be withdrawn; but he thought the matter was one which ought to be inquired into by a Select Committee.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSobserved, that it would be extremely unfortunate for the officers themselves if the Motion was, under the circumstances, pressed to a division. He hoped the Motion would be withdrawn, and it would be then competent to the hon. and gallant Gentleman to call the attention of the Government and the House to the question in some other form.
  SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he would withdraw the Motion. At the same time, he wished to announce his intention of moving for a Committee on the subject.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE RECORD OFFICE.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. BAILLIE COCHRANEsaid, he rose to call attention to the state of the Record Office. A very erroneous impression had been conveyed by certain statements in a recent debate on the subject. Hon, Members had been led to believe that
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  the Record Office was as admirable and perfect as any one could desire, and that the Master of the Rolls thought he had accommodation for more papers than he possessed. The truth was, that the Master of the Rolls entertained an opinion diametrically opposite to that attributed to him. The Report on the subject had been made by the Master of the Rolls, dated the 6th December, 1861, in which, after enumerating all the expedients and makeshifts he had attempted to make in order to take charge of the important records which had been sent to him, he said all these temporary expedients and makeshifts, had, however, been overthrown by the intended demolition of the State Paper Office. The transfer of so many records had necessitated many alterations which were very detrimental to the documents, inconvenient to the public, and burdensome to the officers. Yet they were told that this was an admirable office. The houses in Chancery Lane were not fit for the reception of such important records as were placed there. They were all dark, ill-ventilated, rickety, damp, unprotected against fire, and perpetually under repair. The document kept there were packed in racks from floor to ceiling; and there was great want of space. It had been stated that the Master of the Rolls had represented that he had so much space that he would take charge of the documents, which it had been intended should be placed in the Victoria Tower. What occurred was this:—when it was determined that the State Paper Office should be pulled down, and that the documents it contained should be placed in the Victoria Tower—to get to the upper room of which it was necessary to mount 350 steps—the Master of the Rolls said, rather than the documents should be placed there, whatever inconvenience he was put to, he would take charge of them. It was then proposed they should be put in the cellars of Whitehall. He had himself visited the Record Office, and what did he find? There was an interference on the part of the Board of Works. They put up an order that no papers or books should be placed near the outer walls lest they should give way. Notices were also posted up to show where ladders were to be found in case of fire. Those important records were deposited, many of them in the cellars, and some even in the stables, a portion of the latter being hoarded off for that purpose. That was the admirable way in which the public works were con-

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  ducted; yet, from the representations that had been made, the impression left on the House of Commons was that the accommodation provided was perfect and satisfactory; and that in the face of a Report from the Master of the Rolls of the most opposite character. He had therefore felt it to be his duty to bring the matter before the House, thinking it highly injudicious that through any instrumentality impressions should be conveyed to that House which were not strictly consistent with the facts of the case.
  MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKsaid, he wished to know why the Record Office had not been proceeded with? In 1850 an estimate was given in, and the building, which was a very ugly one, was commenced. One wing was erected, but owing to the Crimean war the building had never been completed. During that war a portion of the War Office, containing records, was wanted for other purposes, and the records were sent to the present Master of the Rolls for custody. Thus he received 160 tons from the War Office; and lately he had thrown on his hands, to save them from the Victoria Tower, the documents which were formerly in the State Paper Office. No proper accommodation, however, was available for the preservation of the valuable historical documents of the country; and if any accident occurred, the loss would be irreparable. The Master of the Rolls had done more than any of his predecessors for the purpose of securing their safe custody and making them properly accessible to the public. He did not think a due tribute of acknowledgment had been paid to him in that respect. It was well known that shortly after he entered on his office he had commenced a series of calendars of historical documents in his custody. These were now being printed. The records were arranged in an admirable manner, and rendered perfectly accessible to searchers, vast numbers of whom consulted them. During the last year there had been no fewer than 12,435 searches for historical documents, and for these no fees were charged. There was only one room in which the literary searchers could be accommodated, and that was only eighteen feet by twelve feet. It might fairly be supposed that the building was so had that the Government were ashamed to go on with it. If a picture of it were produced, he did not think the House would approve it. He
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  was sure it could not meet with the sanction of the noble Viscount at the head of the Government; because it combined all the inconveniences resulting from the attempt in these days to imitate a had style of Gothic and mediaeval architecture. He understood that the Master of the Rolls objected strongly to the Victoria Tower, where, owing to their being no fireplace, and no means of making one, it was impossible that any of the legal and historical documents in his custody could be properly kept or consulted.
  MR. COWPERsaid, he believed they owed the very eloquent appeal of the hon. Member for Bridport to a certain ambiguity in the word "office." When he (Mr. Cowper) had said that he thought the Record Office was perfect, he of course meant to refer to the public building of which the hon. Member was speaking; and notwithstanding what had been said by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, he believed the Record repository to be as perfect a building for its purpose as could be erected. No doubt the temporary arrangement by which a number of papers were deposited in hired houses, until the building intended for their reception was provided, was not the most convenient one. It was by no means a new practice to place records in buildings which were not fire-proof. Indeed, the new Record Office, erected by the Government, was the only fire-proof repository of the kind that had been built of late years. Domesday Book and other most interesting records had been kept for centuries at the Chapter-house, Westminster, in a building of which the late Mr. Braidwood said that, owing to the positions of the interior woodwork, fire, if once commenced, would with difficulty be extinguished. The records kept in the hired houses in Chancery Lane and Rolls Yard, although useful, were not of a very valuable character, consisting for the most part of muster-books of old ships, paybooks from the army, logbooks, and the like. The papers before the House, however, showed that plans existed by which the preservation of all these documents would be provided for within no very long space of time. It was said that there was no continuity of management in the office of Public Works, because the head of the department went out with every change of Government. Certainly that remark did not hold good of the proceedings connected with the

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  Record Office. They began in 1847, when the Earl of Carlisle adopted a plan which, in its main features, resembled the one that had since been executed. In 1850 the Duke of Somerset proposed a large and comprehensive scheme, by which the whole of the records of England for the next hundred years might be provided for. That; scheme consisted of three parts, one of which was to have been executed in 1850, and the other two left till future occasions. The first part had been actually carried out, and was represented by the building now under discussion. It had originally been thought that the building would suffice for the Records of the next fifty, years; but Mr. Pennethorne's view on that point, which was less sanguine, and extended only to ten years, though it had not proved quite accurate, was nearer the mark. So that with respect to the complaint of the hon. Member for Bridport as to these documents being in hired houses, there was no fault resting on the Board of Works, for they had a plan of an eastern wing to be added to the present building, which would amply provide not only for all the documents spoken of by the hon. Gentleman, but for all those likely to come into the Muster of the Rolls' hands for the next ten years. The ground was obtained, and everything ready for commencing the work, except the money. The Government wished, before incurring expense, to be satisfied that it was absolutely necessary. There was a large mass of papers sent in from the War Office and other departments, which required arrangement. These having been subjected to careful examination by a Commission appointed by the Treasury, it was found that one-third of them might be destroyed, and 220 tons were reduced to pulp. Thus the expense of keeping useless documents would be saved. Another question that must be considered was whether any new building; should be fitted up as expensively as the present building, which was all iron and stone, except the roof, and the most elaborate precautions were adopted to guard against depredations. In considering the question of any new building, it was necessary to know whether the documents to be placed in them were of such a character as to require such expensive fittings. Ancient historical records might offer temptation, but few persons would care to purloin a navy muster-roll of 1807. Those were among the causes that had led to the
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  delay; but the matter was under consideration of the Government. The House would hardly be inclined to take up the complaint that the Government had been too ready to propose a large Vote for an expensive building. When it was said that the hire of houses was a more expensive plan than the construction of a new building, he would inform the hon. Gentleman that the estimate for the new wing was £92,000, and therefore it was difficult to see how far economy would be served by erecting a new wing without an absolute necessity; but, if such necessity should be shown to exist, the Government would not shrink from proposing a Vote to Parliament, in order that the records might be kept in a proper and safe condition. He did not agree with the criticisms which had been passed on the building. The gravamen of the complaint appeared to be that the style was Gothic; it must be remembered that the stories were necessarily low, the rooms small, and requiring much light. These requirements necessitated a different elevation from what they might otherwise have had, but it was, in his opinion, as well planned a building as he had ever seen. He quite agreed with the hon. and learned Member opposite (Mr. C. Bentinck), that the greatest credit was due to the Master of the Rolls for the manner in which he had exercised his office of keeper of the records. The records were now concentrated in one position, instead of being scattered over many places, and were capable of being digested with greater facility by the able men who were now engaged upon the duty. The Master of the Rolls, no doubt, desired that his department should be as perfect as possible, but the financial interests of the country required caution in making any outlay; but, should a necessity be proved to exist, there would be no delay in asking Parliament to grant a sum of money for the purpose.

THE FORT IN PLYMOUTH SOUND.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, he wished to call attention to a subject which he had already brought before the House on a former evening. It appeared that a fort was about to be constructed in Plymouth Sound, upon an artificial island inside the breakwater. He thought that, even if the fort were necessary, the site was injudiciously chosen, and the fort ought rather to be

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  built upon the breakwater than upon an island which would encroach upon the already limited anchorage in the Sound. The site that had been selected was commanded by numerous batteries, and the formation of an artificial island would be a matter of considerable expense. The right hon. Baronet the Secretary for War had declined to delay the work, although he consented to submit the question as to the necessity of the fort to the Defence Commission. That appeared to be an illogical course of proceeding, because if the Defence Commissioners should report against the fort, every penny that had been expended upon it would be wasted. The right hon. Baronet had stated that it was not possible to put the fort on the breakwater because the breakwater was not sufficiently strong to bear it, but it would be cheaper to strengthen it than to make an island. He wished to know upon what grounds the right hon. Gentleman prepared to defend the course which he had intimated his intention of adopting?

THE DRESS OF DEPUTY LIEUTENANTS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. KNIGHTLEYsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, If he has any objection to submit to Her Majesty whether it would not be desirable to make some alterations in the dress at present worn by deputy-lieutenants, and to point out the incongruous nature of the costume? Very few persons had availed themselves of it at the opening of the International Exhibition. The tight coatee, the gigantic epaulet, and the stiff collar, had been abolished in the army, and he did not see why deputy-lieutenants should be required to wear all those disfigurements, with the addition of a cocked hat with a parti-coloured plume. There was a suspicion that the dress was somewhat ridiculous—there could be no doubt that it was very uncomfortable. He would recommend the adoption of the tunic as more sightly and convenient. Perhaps the only argument in favour of the retention of the existing suit was that some gentlemen might not like the expense of new uniforms
  SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, he begged leave, in reply to the question of the hon. Member for Norfolk (Mr. Bentinck), to explain that, according to the information he had received, the fort which was to be built at Plymouth would be erected upon
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  a rock, and not upon an artificial foundation. It would be placed close behind the centre of the breakwater, in such a situation that no vessels, except those of the smallest draught of water would think of anchoring near it. The site of the fort was carefully considered by the Defence Commission before it was decided upon. The only alternative was to build it on the breakwater, and the Commissioners considered the site in question the better one in all respects; first, because the breakwater, not being built of solid stone, would not afford a solid foundation; and, secondly, that it was so low that in order to render the guns of the fort effective in all weathers, it would be necessary to build it up to a considerable height above the breakwater, which would have occasioned extra expense. The guns of the fort would be able to fire either in one direction or the other. Under all the circumstances, considering that the Report of the Defence Commissioners might be expected in a fortnight, and that works could not be suspended without a sacrifice of money, and without inflicting hardship upon the contractor and the workmen whom he had employed—he was informed at Portsmouth the other day, that in consequence of the suspension of the works at Spit-head, the contractor for those forts had discharged two hundred men whom he had collected together—it did not appear to him to be desirable to suspend the construction of the fort.
  In answer to the question put to him by the hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Knightley), he could only say that he did not think there was any reasonable objection to the existing uniform of the deputy-lieutenants. These things were all matters of taste, and for his own part, he preferred the old uniform of the army to the new one. No doubt the tunic was better adapted to the exigencies of service than was the coatee, but it Certainly did not look so well at a drawing-room or a levee. In addition to that, many gentlemen who had got uniforms would object to being called upon to change them, and it would not be convenient to have two different uniforms for gentlemen who purchased their coats at different times. For these reasons he was not disposed to recommend any change.

GRAND JURIES (IRELAND).—QUESTION.
MR. BLAKErose, pursuant to notice, to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland

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whether he was prepared to state his intentions as to bringing in a Bill for the reform of the Grand Jury Laws. The hon. Gentleman observed that the subject of reforming the grand jury laws of Ireland had been before the House in one shape or another for the last five-and-twenty year? The late Sir Robert Peel had said that within his Parliamentary experience he did not remember a single Session in which a Bill had not been brought forward, and he (Mr. Blake) might say that he could not call to mind any session in which Bills had not been brought forward, cither by Chief Secretaries, Attorney Generals, or private Members, with the view of dealing with the evil. He confessed it appeared strange to him that so many difficulties should be thrown in the way of a reformation that seemed to be so desirable. The main object of reforming the grand jury laws of Ireland was to establish the great and universally admitted principle that there should be no taxation without representation. The House was not, perhaps, aware that in Ireland the occupying tenant paid the whole of the county rate, and that the landlord paid nothing, although he might own 10,000 acres, unless in cases where he occupied the house on his own demesne, which was seldom the case in a country of almost general absenteeism. Notwithstanding this circumstance, the landlords or their agents sat upon the grand juries to disburse money which they did not contribute to raise, and to control an expenditure which was for their own benefit alone. To show how unfair the system operated, he might say, that although three-fourths of the population of the city of Waterford were Catholics, there had never been a single citizen high sheriff of that religion since the reign of James II. except one. According to the practice in Ireland the high sheriff chose the grand jury, so that there was no representation of the ratepayers whatever, Another objection was, that the tenant paid the whole of the grand jury cess, and a further injustice was inflicted by the fact that the greater portion of the amount so raised went to improve the property of the landlord in the shape of roads, bridges, &c., and in respect of which the landlord got an increased rent when a new tenant came in. Another, and not the least formidable, objection to the grand jury system is the very transient nature of the body itself. They were called into existence three or four days before
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the assizes; they remained together perhaps, not more than a week; and the consequence was, that they were obliged to dispose of the whole of the business in a hasty and inconsiderate manner. They then separated, and in all probability did not meet again for six months, or until the next assizes. It would, he thought, be very much to the advantage of those whose money was raised and expended, if the grand jury system were so reformed that the grand jury should become a sort of corporation, as in English counties, whose duty it would be to meet together at least four times a year, in order to discuss fiscal matters. He hoped that the right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary for Ireland would Dot allow another Session to pass without applying himself to the redress of the abuses of which he complained. Year after year the subject had been taken up by Royal Commissions and by Select Committees of the House of Commons, but nothing had come of it. In order that the House might appreciate the relation between the grand jury and the ratepayers, he would briefly refer to the evidence of one or two influential and experienced gentlemen upon the subject. Mr. Joseph Kincaid, of the firm of Stewart and Kincaid, land agents to Lord Palmerston, was asked whether the grand jury cess was much complained of by the tenantry, and his answer was—"Very much: "—
"Does it appear to you that it would be desirable that the landlords, in the first instance, should pay those rates?—We are agents to an estate in the county of Dublin where the landlord pays the whole of the county cess, and charges no part to the tenant; and I have for a considerable time held the opinion that the landlord ought to pay all the local charges on the land. Several years ago I published a letter on the subject. I should think in Longford the rate amounts to nearly 2s. in the pound.
"Is it your opinion that it would be for the benefit of the landed proprietors to take upon themselves the payment of the taxes and charges upon the land?—I think it would be for the benefit of the landed proprietors that the tenants should be relieved from demands by other parties, particularly from the county cess, which presses upon them at a season when they are not able to pay it.
"Does it appear to you that the principle adopted as to the poor rate would be applicable to county charges, dividing the amount between the landlord and tenant?—It may be, but I doubt whether the mode adopted is desirable, the tenant paying in the first instance, and getting an allowance afterwards, and it is open to the objection I have already suggested, that the tenant ought to be relieved as much as possible from different demands upon him at different seasons of the year

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and that the pecuniary dealings of the tenant with reference to the charges upon the land should be principally with his landlord. That principle of dividing the amount of the charges would be fair, giving the tenant a voice in the expenditure of the public money as well as the landlord; but the details may be exceedingly difficult to manage.
"In what manner would you propose to check the amount of the county rates if the landlords were liable to pay, and not the tenants?—The landlords and agents generally are the persons who lay on the assessment, as members of the grand juries.
"Would you continue the present system of associating the ratepayers with the magistrates?—I think the grand jury laws are capable of very great improvement in that respect; at the same time, I would be inclined to give the ratepayers a voice in the expenditure of the public money."
The evidence of Lord Clancarty, for many years foreman of the County Galway Grand Jury, was also important. The noble Lord said—
"I am of opinion that if more than a partial remedy is to be applied—if a radical change is to be made in the system, it should be to do away altogether with grand juries for all purposes but the criminal business of the county, and to invest the Poor Law boards of guardians—representing as they do all the real and fairly taxable property within their several distriots—with all the fiscal powers hitherto exercised by grand juries, subject, of course, to such regulations as would prevent these new duties from interfering with the fulfilment of the primary objects of this institution. Dispensaries, fever hospitals, roads, and all other local public works, it is especially desirable should be placed under representative control, both for the sake of better efficiency, and in order to create that responsibility towards the payers of rates to which they are fairly entitled."
Admiral Trench, when, examined on the same subject, said—
"Every attempt to improve the fiscal laws which govern grand juries has failed, and this because the system is itself vicious, and incapable of producing good. …I think that no power of raising and expending money should ever be intrusted to an irresponsible body, and least of all to grand juries. I would strongly advise that the whole machinery should be abolished, and an entire new system be resorted to. Surely, the great duration of the grand jury system, the numberless attempts to improve it, and the necessity for present inquiry are, or ought to be, more than enough to condemn it. I have spoken of it as the worst of irresponsible bodies for the purpose of levying and expending public money; and a long and attentive experience has justified me in doing so."
Sir Richard Kane's evidence was as follows:—
"Have you any suggestions you wish to lay before the Commissioners?—No; only that I would strongly recommend that half of the county rate should be placed upon the landlord; and the reason why I say so is this, that the lords of the soil, who generally compose the grand juries, would look, I think, with more attention, and a greater degree of surveillance, to the disposition
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of the funds, if they were to put their hands into their own pockets. You would have a little more discussion; but, at all events, I think it would have a salutary effect. There are now nominal guardians of baronies, in many instances, who are, I need not say, very useless representatives."
Sir Richard Musgrave likewise said—
"I think it fair that a portion of the rate should be paid by the landlord, and for this reason, that the landlord has the power, as a grand juror, of imposing the rate for the purpose of effecting improvements, now that the rate is entirely paid by the tenant, although the tenant derives benefit from the improvements only during his lease. When his lease expires, the landlord comes in for the entire benefit of that tax which he had imposed himself upon the tenant."
Having thus referred to the evidence of some of the best authorities on the subject, he ventured to direct the attention of the House and the Chief Secretary for Ireland to a few extracts from the Report of the Royal Commissioners in 1842. They said—
"The intent of the Legislature in establishing presentment sessions seems to have been to give to the ratepayers such a representation thereat as would enable them to prevent improper or improvident presentments; but the law is not effectual for its purpose. Magistrates may, and, when a particular object is to be carried, not unfrequently do, attend the presentment sessions of baronies where they have no property, and outvote those who have. Then, as to the associated ratepayers, they are not chosen by the ratepayers at large, but are taken by lot from the reduced lists made by the grand jury in the way already described. They are therefore nominees, not of the class they are to represent, but of the class they are to control. The lot, too, may fall upon the most unfit, which is, of itself, a serious fault in the system; and, the uncertainty in which the ratepayers named by the grand jury are left until the day of the presentment sessions, as to the particular individuals who may be drawn to serve, is obviously calculated to prevent a regular attendance.
(Signed) "J. BLAKE, Chief Remembrancer.
"JOHN YOUNG, Bart.
"BARON GREENE.
"WILLIAM SOMERVILLE, Bart.
"JOHN L. O'FERRALL."
The Committee of 1830.—This Committee, and previous Parliamentary Committees, recommended that in all future leases the whole or a part of all grand jury assessments be placed on the landlord.
Committee of 1844.—This Committee on the townland valuation recommend that county cess and poor rate should be collected together, and that all tenants should have the power of deducting a portion of the county rate as under the poor law.
Devon Commission, 1845.—Recommend that the cost of certain public works in counties be borne by the proprietors, and the support of charitable institutions be transferred to the poor laws.
Committee of 1836—Commission of 1840—Devon Commission, 1845.—All these recommend the office of clerk of the crown and peace to be united; those of 1840 and 1845, that the office of

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county treasurer should be abolished; that of 1840, that presentment sessions should consist only of magistrates qualified by property within the barony, and the elected guardians of same.
He thought he had now laid before the House an abundance of evidence to show that a change in the Irish grand jury laws was urgently required. The state of things described by the several Commissions, and the witnesses whose evidence he had quoted, still continued. He did not make any charge against the right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary for Ireland—he did Dot blame him for the unsatisfactory state of the law—but he trusted the right hon.; Gentleman would at one give his attention to the subject, and that before the end of the present Session he (Mr. Blake) might have the pleasure of congratulating him on having accomplished that which so many of his predecessors in office had failed in accomplishing. He believed that there was no subject more worthy of the right hon. Baronet's attention than the question of the reform of the grand jury laws. It was matter of notoriety that there was scarcely any Irish measure, no matter how urgently required, which did not take seven years to debate before it became law; and unfortunately, if any interregnum took place, and that the discussions had to commence de novo, another period of seven years was consumed before anything final was done. If the Government adopted the suggestions of the various commissions which had inquired into the subject, they would make the grand juries of Ireland something in the nature of county corporations, and those who paid the cess would feel that they had representation as well as taxation. He believed the right hon. Baronet was not prepared to go into a discussion of the subject at the present moment, as, owing to an unintentional mistake on his (Mr. Blake's) part, he had led the right hon. Baronet to understand that he should, on the present occasion, ask a question only. He hoped, however, that the right hon. Baronet would give him a reply as to whether, in the event of the Government not doing anything in the matter themselves this Session, they would give their support to a proposition embracing the various improvements which he had ventured to indicate. The first point was as to the representation on the juries; the next, that the taxation should be on the poor rate principle—namely, that a portion should be paid by the landlord as well as by the tenant. He
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knew that the right hon. Baronet's hands were full at the present moment, but he might, without interference with the measures which he himself was promoting, give the assistance of the Government to a private Member endeavouring to effect those necessary reforms.
SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, that he was not prepared to enter into a discussion of the grand jury laws. As had been observed, two or three Attorney Generals had failed to make satisfactory progress with measures they had introduced; and he did not think that at the present stage of the Session it would be desirable to introduce a Bill making any considerable changes in the action of the grand jury laws. In the case of the associated cess-payers, there might not be all the freedom of action that was to be desired; and he would be glad to introduce a Bill, perhaps next Session, if he held office, and would give the subject careful attention during the recess. He was not aware that the Irish generally desired to see any serious change made.
MR. MAGUIREsaid, that the subject had excited great interest in Ireland. There had been several county meetings held; and the proposals made at those meetings, at which all classes were represented, showed that a measure of the nature shadowed forth by the answer of the right hon. Baronet would not be satisfactory. The question was, why should county cess be borne by one class, and the rate for the relief of the poor be divided between two classes? For his own part he would rather wait ten years than accept a peddling and contemptible measure like that shadowed forth by the right hon. Baronet.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he considered that those who had the management of the cess were those who paid it, for all taxes of the kind must ultimately fall upon the land. He hoped that the right hon. Baronet would see from the observations of the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, what was the real nature of the changes asked for.

THE DISTRESS IN THE MANUFACTUR ING DISTRICTS.—QUESTION.
MR. A. F. EGERTONsaid, he had given notice of his intention to put some questions to the President of the Poor Law Board respecting the working of the Poor Law in the cotton manufacturing districts, Both inside and outside of the House he had heard it stated privately that it was

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premature to bring the question of the distress in Lancashire before the House on that occasion. To a certain extent he agreed with those who held that opinion. The matter was a very delicate one, requiring careful handling, lest false hopes should be raised; but he ventured to think, that as the subject had already been discussed in the newspapers, both in Lancashire and in London, and among all classes of the population, it, in his judgment, was well that some ventilation should be given to it in that House. No one could doubt that distress was very prevalent in the cotton manufacturing districts. According to the last reliable return, there were 58,000 operatives entirely out of work in Lancashire, and, of course, a much larger number were working short time. For some time past a weekly statement of the state of trade in Lancashire had been issued in Manchester on the authority of the Mayor. The last return, which arrived in London on the previous day, gave the number of people working short time in Manchester as 15,133, while the number of those who were out of work altogether was stated at 7,567. A similar return for Preston stated that 7,700 were Working short time, and that 12,105—a very large number—were out of work altogether. In Wigan, as he was informed, no fewer than 4,600 were out of work. Those figures implied a vast amount of distress. There were other towns in the north, the inhabitants of which, he was happy to say, were much better off, principally owing, he believed, to the operation of the French treaty. Among those towns the most remarkable were Bolton and Bury. There was some doubt about the condition of Ashton, but he believed it was badly off, though not so much so as Manchester, Preston, and Wigan. He had no doubt that elsewhere in Lancashire, as well as in some parts of Yorkshire, there was a large amount of destitution—that a great number of operatives were working short time, while many were out of work altogether. Before leaving this subject he might be allowed to pay his tribute of admiration to the manner in which both operatives and millowners had hitherto met the emergency. Perhaps the House was not aware that for a long time the owners had kept their mills open when they could neither sell their products nor have any expectation of selling them at a profit. He believed that many millowners had subscribed from
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£5,000 to £6,000 in this way. If such, had been the conduct of the owners, what could he say about the operatives? Their behaviour had been applauded by all who took an interest in the subject, and he had no hesitation in saying, that they had displayed a spirit of endurance and a patient constancy under considerable suffering that had never been surpassed in the annals of any nation. He had now briefly touched upon the present state of affairs. He wished he could say that their future prospects in Lancashire were more cheering, but he was afraid that relief was still somewhat distant. He had received that day an account from Liverpool of the state of the cotton imports there. It appeared that the stock in Liverpool of American cotton at present amounted to 120,830 bales, whereas at the same date last year the stock was 679,730 bales. The total stock at present in Liverpool was 370,000 bales, as compared with 990,000 bales last year. Of Indian cotton there were now at sea 200,000 bales, whereas last year the quantity at sea was 270,000 bales. He believed that that falling-off might be explained by the fact that the shipping of cotton to this country had been checked by the uncertain state of trade in India, caused by the news of the Trent affair. The usual consumption of Great Britain was about 45,000 bales a week. Now, the total stock of the whole of Europe did not exceed 725,000 bales, an amount equal to about seventeen weeks' consumption at half-time. These facts held out no very cheering prospect, and he was afraid that little more cotton was coming. They could only hope that measures would be taken to develop the production of cotton in India. Since the state of things in the north was such as he had described it, the House would see that it was important that the legal means for the relief of distress were properly administered, and it was with that view that he was going to put a few questions to the President of the Poor Law Board. The question had already been discussed at meetings of the local representatives, and a deputation of the Lancashire and Cheshire Members had waited upon the right hon. Gentleman at the Poor Law Office. The proceedings of that deputation had been misrepresented, and he desired, on the part of his hon. Friend the Member for North Lancashire (Colonel W. Patten), who, he was sorry to say, was unable to make his Motion that night, to correct a misapprehension which

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had received great currency through the leading columns of The Times. That paper had thought proper to state that in its opinion the real object of the hon. Member for North Lancashire and those who acted with him was to appeal to the Government for help from the Consolidated Fund. Now, nothing could be further from the intention of his hon. Friend or of any of the speakers on the occasion in question than to claim Government aid or relief from the Consolidated Fund. He was speaking in the presence of hon. Gentlemen who had been present at the reception and who would fully bear him out in what he said. What they really wanted to know from the President of the Poor Law Board was, whether the Poor Law was well administered in the distressed districts—whether all was being done that could be done by legal means. On the present occasion he wished to elicit from the right hon. Gentleman a public assurance that such was the case, for he thought that a statement to that effect would be satisfactory to the country. There was a general feeling among the operatives—he hoped and believed an erroneous one—that the Poor Law was rather harshly administered, that labour tests were imposed in cases where they ought not to be imposed, and that the rigid rules laid down by the Board should be relaxed. He had no doubt that the President of the Board could give the House some information upon all these points. No one could be better informed than the right hon. Gentleman of the state of affairs throughout the country, and he was sure the House would be glad to hear his opinion upon the whole question of the distress and the mode of alleviating it The question had been mooted in the public papers, whether it was necessary that a large scheme of national charity should be started. In his opinion the time had not arrived for that, but he should be glad to hear the President of the Poor Law Board upon the point. As at present advised, he believed that the means of relief in the cotton manufacturing districts were not yet exhausted, and that the time had not arrived for considering whether appeal should be made to the public at large. He had given notice of his intention to ask the Secretary for India whether any reduction had been decided on in the Indian tariff; and, if so, when they would come into operation? The information contained in the public papers was to the
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effect that five per cent would be taken off cloth, and three and a half per cent off yarns. Nothing could be better than that reduction, except an entire repeal of the duties. He would not go into the subject of India, which was a large one; but the opinion was generally entertained in the district he represented that India should produce cotton for them, and that they should produce manufactured goods for India. That was, no doubt, a selfish opinion, but he believed it was the sound one, and that India would be better employed in the cultivation of cotton than in its manufacture. The questions he wished to put to the President of the Poor Law Board were—whether, in his opinion, the rules of the Poor Law Board ought to be relaxed; whether he thought the labour test was enforced in cases where it ought not to enforced; and whether generally the board of guardians were administering the Poor Law with due regard to the pockets of the ratepayers as well as to the relief of the existing distress?
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, it would perhaps be well for him to answer at once the question put to him by the hon. Gentleman as to the import duties levied in India, before the discussion on the distress in Lancashire was entered upon. He had not the slightest doubt that the reduction of duty to which the hon. Gentleman had referred as having been announced in the newspapers had taken place, although he had not as yet received a despatch from India announcing the fact. He knew it was the intention of the Indian Government to reduce the duty as soon as the state of that country permitted them to do so.
MR. POTTERsaid, he desired, with the permission of the House, to give briefly his opinion as to the extent of the trade of the cotton districts and of the distress now prevailing in those districts. There were no less than 600,000 persons employed in the cotton manufacture, who received between £15,000,000 and £16,000,000 a year in wages when they were in full work, but who at this moment were receiving not more than half that amount. The hon. Member had stated the number of persons who were receiving no wages at all at 58,000; but he believed, if the facts were known, that the number would be found to be something like 100,000. These facts must carry conviction to the minds of all as to the amazing amount of distress that existed. But it was not only

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the operatives employed in the cotton trade who suffered from the present condition of that trade, but, from the large amount of money that was thrown out of circulation, the distress was much wider spread. The shopkeepers in those districts were, he thought, even more to be pitied than the working classes themselves, because the moment the working classes got into employment they started again immediately, while the small shopkeeper, who had been carrying on his business with the savings of a life, had no capital to start when better prospects opened. He believed that the extent of the cotton trade had been calculated at something like £80,000,000. They had no prospect for the next six months of carrying on more than half that trade. There were no means of doing it, for half the cotton would not be in their possession, and he had no doubt that at the end of the year the return of the cotton trade, instead of being £80,000,000) a year, would not have exceeded some £50,000,000 or £60,000,000. He had no doubt that the working classes of Lancashire had the sympathies of that House as much as of those who resided amongst them; and no man, he was convinced, had a sounder knowledge of the economical question than the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Poor Law Board, to whom the working classes generally felt themselves indebted for his exertions in their behalf. He did not think that public charity or the Poor Law itself could cope with the present difficulty. He believed, that unless there was some change in the relative positions of this country and America, that unless they got cotton from America, the Poor Law would not be adequate to the occasion. He would not carry that argument further; but what he desired was that the Government should, by means of a Committee or Commission, ascertain the facts of the case, which they could not ascertain from the reports to the Poor Law Board, and then consider what means might be taken to relieve the distress found to exist. In the district where he had resided for a number of years, in a population of 100,000 there were 8,000 or 9,000 persons connected with the cotton trade. They were not, he believed, so destitute as the operatives in other districts, but they were suffering severely, and yet there was hardly one per cent, of that number who ever went into a poor house. He had been an employer of labour himself for many years, and he never remembered
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one of his own hands or one of his workmen wanting to obtain parochial relief. He believed that that was a character that would apply to the class generally throughout England. The operatives employed in the cotton trade had been growing in intelligence, and had made wonderful progress, more, perhaps, than any other class in the country, during the last thirty years; and when this character of them was borne in mind, the repugnance that they felt to go into the workhouses would be readily understood. The class was not a small one—one-seventh of the whole working population of England was dependent upon cotton. The case was not one which could be adequately met by any system of charity. Indeed, his great anxiety was to spare that class on whose behalf he was speaking the pain of sinking from their high position, and its members would, he felt assured, be prepared to undergo any amount of privation rather than urge upon Her Majesty's Government the adoption of any steps which would have that result. Their present condition was entirely exceptional, and it wanted an exceptional remedy, which would be better able to be suggested after inquiry by a Committee or Commission. The only remedy for the existing state of things in Lancashire would be a large supply of cotton from the United States; but no one in this country, he was sure, would urge the Government to break the blockade of the Southern ports in order to obtain that supply. But he earnestly hoped that the Government would carefully watch the dark cloud which hung over the cotton, districts of this country, and which he feared would break upon them and involve them in ruin such as no man could estimate.
MR. C. P. VILLIERS (who was very indistinctly heard)said, he hoped neither the hon. Member for South Lancashire nor the hon. Member for Carlisle imagined that the extent of the suffering which was now being endured in the manufacturing districts in the north had escaped his attention, or that he had neglected to inform himself on the subject. Nobody, he could assure the House, could be more painfully alive than he was to the extent of that suffering, nor was he without daily evidence of its magnitude. There was hardly a circumstance mentioned by the hon. Gentleman which he could not confirm by his own experience, both as to the extent of the suffering and the generous and noble manner in which it was borne.

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Not only had he given his attention to the distress as it had arisen, but he had anticipated the occurrence of that distress; for, so far back as the latter end of last November, having regard to the unfortunate conflict which had broken out in America, and the results to which that conflict was likely to lead in this country, he had deemed it to be his duty to provide, as far as possible, against the destitution which he knew must ensue, and had issued a circular to every union, not only in the cotton districts, but in all those localities connected with American trade, expressing his apprehension of the suffering to which the population would be subjected if the war were to continue, and exhorting the proper officers to make early provision for an unusual amount of distress. He was happy to receive from all those unions replies which indicated a very great confidence in themselves, and a knowledge and experience of the working of the system of public aid in this country which relieved him very much from some apprehensions he had previously felt that they would be taken by surprise, and that their means would prove inadequate to cope with the emergency. There was throughout those answers an expression of satisfaction with the present state of things, and with very few exceptions there was in all of them the expression of the conviction that come what might they would be able to meet the emergency by the ordinary resources which they possessed. That, so far, was satisfactory as regarded themselves; but believing that no greater calamity could fall upon this country than an interruption to that great business which was necessarily interwoven with the well-being and prosperity of the United States, he required returns of the condition of the people, or rather of those of whom the guardians had special cognizance. For six months he received, frequently from week to week, returns of the progress of poverty and the state of the people. Those reports he proposed to lay on the table of the House, so that it would be informed precisely of the state of the population up to that time. He had also attempted to distinguish those districts more immediately connected with the American trade. The returns during the last two months would show their precise condition under the continuance of the distress. He had no desire to underrate the intensity of the case or to encourage the people in unfounded expectations of better times; but those returns showed
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that latterly the distress had apparently been stagnant, or at least had not increased, as far as they could judge from the number of persons receiving public relief. He did not wish to mislead anybody with regard to these returns, for there were circumstances which might partly account for it; but the fact stood that the returns from the end of April to the present week exhibited some falling-off in the distress as compared with earlier returns. It was under these circumstances the deputation that had been referred to honoured him with a visit at the Poor Law Board. The deputation called on him to state what he considered were the means of relieving the distress, very much in the terms in which the question had been proposed that night. They wished to know whether he was satisfied with the mode in which the guardians administered relief, and whether the means in their hands were adequate for their purpose at the present time. In answering that question he was able to refer to the returns he had just mentioned, and so far, having very carefully watched the operation of the system, he was able to state to the deputation that he did consider that the guardians of the unions and those whose duty it was to administer the Poor Law had hitherto provided excellent means for the purpose, that they were acting with firmness and judgment as well as humanity, and that he had no reason to complain of what was passing in those districts. The unions were acting together in harmony, and judging of the amount of distress by the number of persons relieved, melancholy as was the condition of the people, there was nothing to justify his interference with the local authorities, or any reason to spread alarm in the country as to the inadequacy of the means to meet the present distress. The deputation stated that, without doubting the accuracy of the returns which the Poor Law Board had received, these returns did not fairly or altogether indicate the true extent of the distress; and that though they were very faithful accounts of the actual numbers who submitted themselves as destitute and received relief from the Poor Law, yet that there was an immense amount of misery of which the Poor Law authorities had no cognizance, but of which persons locally acquainted were painfully aware. From these circumstances the Poor Law authorities were made acquainted with the extent of the feeling which prevented sensitive persons from submitting to the ex-

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treme consequences of destitution; but it was more than probable that such persons would sooner or later swell the aggregate of destitution. But he might be allowed to state what was the fact, that the Poor Law had no machinery by which it could ascertain the number of those persons, or undertake to relieve any persons who were not actually destitute. That might be a defect in our system, but he believed it impossible to find a remedy. That was a class which could only be reached by private benevolence, and it seemed to him that this was an occasion for the noble and effectual labours of local committees; that the local committees should place themselves in communication with the Poor Law authorities, and bring those cases actually before them, or apply the means in their own hands to their relief in various ways as they thought most fit. But, as the head of the Poor Law Department, he could only answer for the way in which the Poor Law did its work; and when he was asked, as he had been that evening, whether the Poor Law authorities were, as far as he was aware, equal to the emergency, he did not hesitate to say that they were; and in proof of that he need only communicate to the House what they were in the daily habit of communicating to him—that though the distress was great, they were perfectly able to meet the increased demands upon them by the means at their disposal. When he spoke of the exertions of local committees and the aid of voluntary funds he only threw it out as a suggestion, because those committees had the opportunity either of bringing cases of distress before the Poor Law authorities or relieving them themselves. From one statement made by the deputation it appeared that the people of Lancashire were under great uncertainty and doubt as to what the powers of the local Poor Law authorities were. There appeared to be some apprehension that these authorities were fettered, more or less, by some stringent rules of the Poor Law Board in London. He was surprised that any such doubts should have prevailed; but he was glad to have the opportunity of removing any misapprehension that existed upon the subject. He had been told that there was some doubt as to the power of the guardians or overseers to raise the rate to any amount to meet the exigencies of the time; as to whether they could extend their staff with a view to meet all the requirements of an extraordinary state of
1500
things; whether there was any stringent rule that required people to sell up house and furniture before receiving relief; and, lastly, whether rules issued by the Poor Law Board were so stern that the guardians had no power to relax them without previous communication with the Board on the subject. He satisfied the deputation upon all those points; and should, with a view to give further publicity to a statement he made as to the powers of local authorities, repeat it to the House. In the first place, then, the Poor Law-guardians might raise the rates to any amount, without communicating with the Poor Law Board. They might also increase the number of their staff, in order to distribute the relief that might be necessary. With respect to selling their furniture and household goods, it had been the law for nearly three centuries that those who asked for relief should possess no property, and no doubt provisions in Acts of Parliament to that effect were to be found; but no practical operation was given to those provisions, and in no instance were the people required to make such great sacrifices before they received relief. One member of the deputation stated that he had been informed that some person in Wigan had been subjected to a severe test. He directed a communication to be made to the clerk of the union, and he had received a communication from him emphatically denying that any such case had ever occurred at Wigan. Then it was said that the rules of the Poor Law Board were stringent and unbending, and that the overseers and guardians were obliged to exact a labour test, which was so humiliating to some persons that they would rather starve than submit to it. That was not the case. There was nothing so stern or so stringent in any order issued by the Poor Law Board which might not be relaxed and might not be adapted to circumstances. The whole system was elastic and capable of being adapted to extraordinary circumstances. In the time of the hon. Member for Lincolnshire, some ten or twelve years ago, an order was issued for the guidance of the authorities with respect to relieving able-bodied persons. The order required that when relief was given such able-bodied persons should give work in return; but in that order exceptions were specified, and instructions were conveyed to the authorities, that if they thought it desirable under certain circumstances to give relief

1501
without exacting labour, they should do so for a period of twenty-one days, and communicate to the central Board the special circumstances under which they thought it expedient to deviate from the order. It was not a stringent rule, but one which was well adapted to every degree of distress. It went on at the present time, and there was no general request from these unions, with whom the Poor Law Board was in friendly communication, that they should depart from it. There was a sort of cry raised now that there was a novelty in imposing the labour test upon persons in this condition. But the labour test only meant that those who received relief out of other men's earnings should return some work, and it was not a novelty, because it was a provision in the Poor Law which had been in existence for three centuries. The leading provision of the 47th of Elizabeth was, that when people applied to the parochial authorities for relief, they should be set to work. It might be the wisdom or not of our ancestors, but it had been handed down to us, and had never been objected to; and the novelty would be to say, that when people received relief, they should return no labour. Then they heard that the labour was of a kind which was offensive to those who had been engaged in very different employment. But that was not a necessary condition of the order, and unless the guardians were very inconsiderate there was no occasion to impose a test of work humiliating to the people and little suited to their previous occupations. All that was required by the labour test order was, that when an able-bodied man sought relief, he should have the money without going into the workhouse, provided that he did some work in return. Other places had been as unfortunate as Lancashire, and the application of the labour test in them had not been objected to. The case of Coventry, in which city a very severe distress existed for eighteen months, was, perhaps, the freshest in the recollection of the House. When the people of Coventry suffered so severely, the first impression of the benevolent was that they ought to be relieved from the stringent rules of the Poor Law Board. Lord Leigh, a nobleman who, to his great honour, took a prominent and useful part in relieving the distress of the Coventry weavers, thought he could not better serve the people and promote the object which he had in view than by
1502
writing a letter to the Poor Law Board, calling upon them in so peculiar an emergency to relax the labour test. The publication of that letter produced consternation among those whose duty it was to administer relief, and there was a general remonstrance from all the other unions. When the letter reached the Poor Law Board they immediately sent an Inspector to a meeting in the town, and the Inspector found at that meeting that Lord Leigh was not acquainted with the provisions of the Poor Law, that he did not know what the labour test really was, and that he believed extraordinary sacrifices were required. Shortly afterwards, Lord Leigh, through the chairman, acknowledged that he had acted in error, that he was not; acquainted with the provisions of the Poor Law, and that he saw there must; be some rule in administering relief. Not only so, but when large subscriptions had been raised in different parts of the country for the purpose of relieving the unfortunate weavers, a large proportion of the amount subscribed was administered upon the principle of exacting labour. The weavers went cheerfully to work. What they considered their relief was the opportunity to work. They had the opportunity, and he was assured that such was the spirit and right feeling of the people—no doubt it was the same in Lancashire as in Coventry—that they would rather do some work than receive relief without it. There was nothing in the order or in anything which proceeded from the Poor Law Board, or in anything which took place in the administration of relief, which ought to shock the people because of the conditions upon which relief was given. It was under these circumstances that he assured the deputation that there was no reason to apprehend any want of resources in the county of Lancashire, or in the parishes of the county where distress prevailed. He thought it right to state that hardly a day passed on which communications did not reach the Poor Law Board from the chairmen of boards of guardians in that county, who were responsible for these statements, that they were perfectly satisfied that their resources were at present equal to all the requirements which were made upon them. All they prayed was that they might be properly supported in the exercise of their duties, and all they hoped was that they might not be obstructed in the application of those rules which a large experience

1503
of their wisdom and propriety warranted them in enforcing. Therefore the House would understand that at that moment there were ample resources for relieving the distress such as it was, and that such was the view of the guardians of the poor of the county. The hon. Member (Mr. Potter) asked what were the prospects of the country, and what he thought generally might occur in the course of the year. He could not give the hon. Gentleman any precise information about that, but certainly he was disposed to take quite as gloomy a view of those prospects as the hon. Gentleman—that was to say, he saw no prospect of any cessation of the distress, such as it was, at the present moment. There was a very large number of people indeed out of employment. As the hon. Member for Carlisle truly stated, their being out of employment involved an immense deal more distress both among those above and those below them, who carried on business subsidiary to their wants. It was impossible to overrate the importance of that consideration, and there could be no doubt that the distress was perfectly appalling. The cotton manufacture really was the great element in the manufacturing business of the country, and it seemed to him that cotton was to commercial life what he ventured to think some years ago that corn was to the physical life of the workpeople. The importance of cotton to the commercial interests could not be exaggerated. It was a gigantic interest, and all matters that depended on it were vast. At the same time, he did not think that there was reason for hopeless alarm. It was not as if the business had ceased to exist; or as if a change had taken place in the taste of the consumers of cotton goods, or that any new discovery had been made rendering cotton goods unnecessary. The present state was clearly temporary, and the only question was how long would the pressure to which the factory people were exposed continue. He ventured to express an opinion that very large supplies of cotton must come from other countries besides America, as it was only natural to suppose that its high price would stimulate production. But even if the distress continued, the resources of the great and wealthy county of Lancaster were more than sufficient to meet all the difficulties arising out of the depression of the trade. He had read with some astonishment an account of the rateable value of the county of Lancaster; and seeing what was the
1504
amount of calls made on that rateable value daring the first four months of the present year, he felt confident that there did not exist that extremity of want and destitution which had been alluded to. The rateable value of Lancashire in 1856 was £7,298,000, and the cost of the poor in the same year was £455,000. In 1861 the cost of the poor was £429,670. He had made a calculation as to what would be the cost of the poor, supposing the expenditure on them went on at the rate it had been going on during the last four months; and he found it was bringing the expenditure on the poor up to £678,000 for the year, or at the rate of 1s. 10 d. in the pound. Considering what was now paid by other counties, there was nothing very alarming in that amount. In Suffolk, and also in Sheffield, 2s. 6d. in the pound was paid; and that rate would raise the payment of Lancashire to £912,318. St. George's-in-the-East and Shoreditch paid 3s. 3d. in the pound, and such a rate as that would make the payment of Lancashire £1,186,013. In Nottingham Union, and in East and "West London Unions, the rate was 3s. 6d., and that applied to Lancashire would raise the contribution of that county to £1,277,245. As much as 5s. in the pound were paid by many parishes in the midland, eastern, and southern parts of England, and a rate of that kind would cause the payment of Lancashire to be £1,824,636. A rate of 6s. was paid by a smaller but still considerable number of parishes, and according to such a rate the payment of Lancashire would be £2,189,563. He did not mean to use these figures for any fallacious purpose, or to deny that in some particular towns of Lancashire the distress was most intense. In those localities there undoubtedly existed great suffering and the most vigilant attention was required in administering relief. He might be mistaken (though he was anxious not to state anything not strictly accurate), but he had not heard of any place in Lancashire that paid more than 3s. in the pound. He heard yesterday from Preston, and it was stated by the Chairman of the Board of Guardians, as being a very great payment, that, perhaps, the rate there had actually reached 3s. in the pound. In that place the distress was most severe; but, upon the whole, where the rates were comparatively so low it might be inferred that the contributions of private persons were liberal, and that great exertions

1505
were made by them to provide for the wants of the people. But the people had a right to apply to the poor rate, and to that they must apply before coming upon the public funds. There was no apprehension whatever that the Poor Law guardians were not equal to their position, or that they had not means at their disposal to relieve the poor, but as it had been stated by the deputation that some misapprehension, however groundless, prevailed as to the power of the Poor Law guardians, and as to the character of the rules and orders under which they acted, the Government had thought it right to instruct some persons of experience and judgment to proceed at once to the distressed districts, and to ascertain whether there was any want of information on the part of the guardians, and whether the system on which they acted was strictly legal. These persons, being men of experience, would be enabled to do something to bring into harmonious action with the regular authorities all those volunteer bodies who were doing so much good in giving relief. He trusted that that arrangement would produce a useful effect in preventing the waste of funds, and in directing persons anxious to contribute where they should go. In that matter the Government had been guided by precedent; for there had been former instances of persons being sent down, in times of distress, to assist the local authorities with useful advice. He would refer to one case—that of the Burnley Union. Some years ago when severe distress was prevalent, Sir John Walsham proceeded to Burnley, and, after putting himself in communication with all those engaged in administering relief to the poor, he addressed a report to the Government, in which he said that he found the relief was administered in a manner far from satisfactory, and he was not satisfied that the destitution was adequately met. "In fact," he said—
"It appeared to me that we are in the Burnley Union in the midst of a general scramble for the rates, which, if order be not introduced immediately into their administration, will before long reduce the ratepayers to insolvency, without, at the same time, leaving the conviction on any man's mind that the indefinite pauperism which had created such a lamentable result had been real to the extent asserted, or that those severe privations which too certainly do prevail, and are, indeed, painfully notorious, have been sufficiently alleviated. On the next day the board of guardians unanimously agreed that I should prepare, with the full concurrence of those present, a
1506
series of resolutions to be, I hope, passed by Tuesday's board, which resolutions should provide at once for the following points, namely:—1. Increase of the relieving power. 2. Establishment of relief in kind on an extensive scale. 3. Organization of out relief and settlement committees in and for each district, 4. Organization of a visiting and finance committee. 5. Organization of a labour committee."
They passed a resolution to the effect that the notoriety of the distress afforded a strong temptation to the idly-disposed to throw themselves upon the rates, and that a system of labour ought to be devised under proper superintendence for obtaining that which undoubtedly, was wanted—namely, suitable employment. About six weeks afterwards a report was sent to London that the exertions of the board of guardians, combined with the spirit and patriotism of the manufacturers in employing the destitute heads of families, had been most effective. After the representations which had been made to the Poor Law Board, he had thought proper to send down an experienced person who would put himself in communication with the authorities, in order that the best means of relief might be resorted to, and that the Government might be kept properly informed. He was bound to say, from all that had reached him, that there was not the smallest cause of complaint against the persons in authority; they were doing all in their power to relieve the distress, and there was no disposition, anywhere existing to charge them with neglect of duty.
MR. BRIGHT: I think it was very natural that the hon. Member for South. Lancashire should have brought this question before the House, and am sure that only express the general feeling when say that the manner in which he did it was befitting the object he had in view. He being connected with the county—and many other Members of the House also connected with it—must know, that although there is great and growing distress, vet that it is not so universal as many persons at a distance might suppose; and that it is very much more severe in some towns than in others. And this arises, as the House might imagine, on the smallest consideration, from the very different kind of work which is performed, and the different branches of trade which are carried on in the different towns. For instance, in Bolton, where the spinning is almost all of fine yarn, and where only a comparatively small portion of cotton is used, the dis-

1507
tress is far less pressing than it is in Wigan and Rochdale, where the spinning is almost entirely of coarse yarns. I look back to the period to which my right hon. Friend has referred, twenty years ago, and I can say, without hesitation, that the distress of the whole county of Lancaster in the years 1840 and 1841 was very much greater than it is at this moment. At the same time, I am not certain that so many persons were out of work then, but the distress had continued for a much longer time; it had been preceded by a period of much less prosperity, and the people were gradually dragged down to a condition far lower than that to which they have now descended. My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Mr. Potter) says that we have not more than about half trade. I should be thankful for half trade if it could be spread with any moderate equality over the country. But whilst the people of Bolton are having whole trade, or nearly so, the people of Wigan and Rochdale have not half trade; and therefore in a matter of this kind, averages are not very safe guides when we are to consider what may be done. I believe—I am sure, indeed—that the case is growing worse, and must grow worse, because, after the prosperity these districts have enjoyed, there are thousands of families who have saved a little money, and who can go on for a certain time without receiving relief; but, of course, the longer the distress continues the smaller the class will become, and the more surely will they be drawn into the abyss into which not a few have already fallen.
No, nothing can be more sad than the sight of men who, for years past, have saved what they could, and have performed in an admirable manner all the duties of life—to see their earnings and savings and little stores gradually waste under a state of things such as that which now exists. But let us not deceive ourselves for a moment by imagining that we can remove this evil or prevent it. The utmost anybody connected with the county or anybody connected with the Government can do must be to mitigate it to some small, and I hope to some considerable extent. But there must be, whatever is done, wide ruin—extending, I believe, to thousands of families in the cotton districts. Now, what are the means which we have at our disposal to ameliorate the condition of this unhappy class? My right hon. Friend (Mr. C. P. Villiers) has made a speech
1508
to night which, on the whole, I think has given satisfaction to the House, and I think also that it will be satisfactory to the country. While he has endeavoured to adhere to the acknowledged and ordinarily acted upon principles of the Poor Law, still I think he has shown that disposition which we should expect from him, and from the department over which he presides, to arm the guardians in every district with the power to exercise a very large discretion with regard to the treatment of this grave evil. The guardians are elected by a very large constituency in every parish, and they are not spending the money of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, they are spending the money which their direct constituents have but recently paid into their coffers; and I believe there is no body of men in the kingdom, or, to limit the area, in the county, to whom you could more wisely intrust the expenditure of the ratepayers' money than those to whom the ratepayers themselves have intrusted it. In the old Poor Law times, when those grievous abuses existed which caused the establishment of the Poor Law Board, it was not so much in the towns that the Poor Law was badly administered; in the towns there is a public opinion that always, in the main, keeps officials in some kind of check with regard to the expenditure of money; it was in the rural districts where the great evils prevailed which caused the new Poor Law to be enacted. If, when the old Poor Law existed, those grievances of encouraging idleness and expending money wastefully did not prevail to a great extent in the towns, they are less likely to prevail now; and therefore I believe my right hon. Friend will be acting in accordance with true wisdom, as well as according to the dictates of humanity, if he does as little as possible—I will say almost nothing—to check the guardians in the distribution of the resources intrusted to their care.
But I do not think the whole of the matter can be met by the boards of guardians. And there is one reason why I think it should not be so met. The House will recollect that all the money intrusted to the guardians is not collected from men in proportion to their means, but according to the rent of the shop, house, or warehouse which they occupy. If you take a town like Manchester, you will find there a merchant who may be making his £10,000 a year, and whose

1509
property may amount to £100,000—especially the foreign merchant—whose building upon which he pays rates is not very large, and whose rates are, on the whole, comparatively very small. You collect from all these lands and buildings, but you leave an immense amount of wealth not touched under the Poor Law. Well, although I am not about to recommend any alteration of the law for the taxation of wealth, I say that it is desirable, and that it is necessary there should be other assistance to the people than that which the Poor Law guardians will be able to get from the rates so collected. Therefore I presume there will necessarily be, in every parish where much pressure is felt, a committee formed who shall collect subscriptions which should not come from those who are verging upon distress themselves, as the Poor Law would collect rates, but should come from those who have greater means, and who, under the present system, do not probably pay in proportion to their means. In the town in which I live there has been a committee of the kind established, and it has been working with signal success. A committee of gentlemen of considerable number have canvassed every street in the town where there was anybody at all likely to require relief, and have obtained very accurate statistics, and they have made a rule that whenever they find that the income per head in each family is below a certain amount, that they will afford relief—principally in food, and probably not much—I do not know whether any, in money—up to the point. I cannot pass this over without stating to the House that there has been not a few cases in which families, having received tickets entitling them to obtain this relief, have brought them back to the committee, explaining that since they received them some member or members of their families have obtained better employment, or an extra day or two's work; and therefore they brought back the ticket, that it might go to some one more necessitous than themselves. Wigan and one or two other towns may be worse off than Rochdale, because, with us, the flannel manufacture employs a large number of persons, and we have in that town, as the House knows, a remarkable co-operative institution, which has been of great advantage to the people under this pressure. I was down there only last week, and if I am not wrongly informed, the subscriptions have hitherto
1510
been in advance of the necessities of the relief committee. They have spent between £80 and £90 per week, and they have still a few hundreds in hand, although, as far as I am aware, none of the subscriptions in the town have been larger than £50. Therefore, so far as that particular town goes, notwithstanding the severity of the suffering of many, a state of things clues not exist which would justify that parish, town, or district in going to another district, or in coming to Parliament for any aid. My right hon. Friend has stated to the House what is the property of the county, but still there has been no rate in aid yet agreed to I hope it may never come to such a pass as that; but it must be admitted—I think no Lancashire man in this House will, for a moment, deny that there is—at least, I should flatly contradict any man who attempted to say the contrary—I say that there is patience and great power of endurance amongst the people; there is is also great wealth, and I believe an equal liberality amongst those who possess it. And therefore have the strongest confidence myself, that if this state of things should go on for many months longer, the county will find itself quite competent to take care of its own affairs, without sending the hat round to other parts of the country. At the same time, while I would object to any great measures of relief in the shape of a committee in London, or of Government interference, which would only add to the pauperism of the district and prove most pernicious, yet if there be any one in the Kingdom who is willing to aid an acknowledged distress which exists, let him send quietly, without ostentation, and without getting up a great fund to be scrambled for, whatever sum he can spare to any one he knows in the district. I have no doubt there are many persons who will receive and distribute contributions as the donors may wish.
My right hon. Friend said that the latest accounts showed a slight diminution in the number of persons receiving relief; and he has referred to the question of East India cotton. In the neighbourhood in which I live there has been an attempt, which has gradually extended of late, to introduce the use of East India cotton, and I have no doubt that in some cases mills have been started on partial or full time which had been altogether stopped. But the right hon. Gentleman

1511
referred to one point to which I would call the special attention of the noble Lord at the head of the Government. He said that the importations from India had been diminished this year, and that it was greatly owing to the uncertainty which had been caused by the fear of war with the United States. I believe that is quite true, but I wish to tell the noble Lord and his colleagues that nothing, apart from the great question which causes the main part of this suffering—nothing has done more harm to the trade in Lancashire than certain expressions of opinion which we have heard lately from Members of the Government on the question which now agitates and tears the United States. About two months ago I was standing at a place where we are permitted to stand not far from here, and to listen to speeches which are sometimes interesting and sometimes not. On that occasion I heard part of a speech delivered by the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary on the question of the blockade. I heard him state that he—of course representing the Queen, the country, and the Government—had been impartial; we had been perfectly neutral; nobody could in the least complain; he thought the blockade was efficient, and so forth. And then he went on to say, after boasting of his impartiality, that he hoped in the course of two or three months that the Northern States (I am not pretending to quote his exact words, but I am giving his meaning) would permit the South to become independent, and that this country would, of course, wish the prosperity of both States. But what was the effect of that—the moment, the very day, when that passage in his speech went down to Lancashire? I can turn to an hon. Friend of mine who sits on this side of the House, and who represents one of the boroughs in Lancashire which is suffering the heaviest distress. He went down a few days afterwards; and when he came back, he said to me, "What did Lord Russell mean the other night in the House of Lords? "I said, "What did he say?" He referred to the passage. I said, "I don't know what he meant, but I heard him say it." "Well," he replied, "down in Lancashire the whole trade is checked by that very observation, and yarns and cloth in the Manchester market have fallen from 7 to 10 per cent in consequence of that declaration." Now, I want to know whether the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary
1512
knew anything about what he was talking about. In Lancashire they believe—they are often mistaken, no doubt—that great statesmen have great knowledge, and that they know secrets that the public do not know. Now, if there ever was a question in the world on which Cabinet Ministers know no more than any other Members of this House, it is precisely this question which agitates the United States. The noble Lord the Foreign Secretary knew nothing at all of the facts. He had not the slightest ground for believing that the Northern States in two or three months would allow that great country to be broken up and consent to the establishment of a new State. It is quite possible that may happen. I am not going to prophesy, and therefore I will not express any opinion about that question, but I do say that if the Minister—the Foreign Minister of all others—stands forth in Parliament and expresses an opinion like that, it is taken by all the people in the country to be an opinion founded upon facts which give him fair ground to have that expectation, and in my view it is in point of fact a species of intervention, and a departure from the neutrality of which the noble Lord had just been boasting. I say I will express no opinion here on this question—my views are well known—but I say it is not the duty of any Minister to express such opinions. I say, further, that as regards the trade of Lancashire it has suffered very much from the statement of the Foreign Secretary; and, of course, from the various rumours that from time to time are set up that certain things are about to happen, which perhaps may never happen. Let the House bear in mind the state of things here. That cotton which a year ago was worth 6d. per lb. is now worth 1s. 1d. per lb. That is only an increase of 7d. in the pound; but if it extends to millions and hundreds of millions of pounds, you can conceive what a sum it becomes. If this cotton has been bought, say at 1s. per lb., at which it has ruled almost entirely since October last, except during the period at which there was apprehension of a war with America, and if it has been worked up into yarn and cloth, what the man wishes who has worked it up is that the price of yarn and cloth should gradually rise so that he may at least carry on his operations without loss. If his loss is considerable, he closes his mills. What, then, is the effect of the ob-

1513
servations of this sort? Why to lead men to believe that in two or three months the Southern ports will be open and cotton freely coming out, and then the cotton which was charged at 1s. will go down to; 6d. as before—that is to say, if a manufacturer has bought yarn and cloth at a price based upon cotton at 1s., the probability is that he may lose 25 or 50 per cent; and if he has any great transactions, he may be absolutely ruined. Now, do not the least blame Lord Russell for holding any opinion he likes upon American questions—even the most absurd that can be picked up. He may agree with me if he likes; but I say that, being Foreign Secretary, it is contrary to his duty in that office, to his professions of neutrality, and it is contrary to the interests of this great trade of Lancashire, that he should say one single word that should tend to add to the vast uncertainty which now paralyses every branch of that trade, and aggravates the original evil which we are all lamenting. I am in favour of what Mr. Hosea Biglow says in The Biglow Papers. He says in Yankee dialect, and without particular regard to grammar—" Don't never prophesy unless you know." I presume to recommend that advice to the Foreign Secretary in future. I hope that nothing I have said—nothing that has been said in the House—shows any disregard for the sufferings that are being endured by the people of Lancashire. I recollect twenty years ago, in 1842, there was a Report made by the Commissioners who were appointed to inquire into the state of Stock-port when that town was suffering so much; and that Report gave the highest character to the efforts of the people to sustain themselves from pauperism and the rates. An hon. Friend has handed to me the extract, which I did not know was in the House; but it is worth reading, I and believe that the same may be said of the character of the Lancashire people now. That Report states—
"On the occurrence of general distress, we find them neither a pauperized mass, nor readily admitting pauperism among them; but struggling against adversity, beating far and wide for employment, and in many cases leaving their country for foreign climates, rather than depend upon any other resources for subsistence than those of their own industry and skill. Those among them who have not been able or willing to leave a place where at present their labour is of little or no value, have been found enduring distress with patience, and abstaining sometimes to the injury of health from making any application for relief; while others, who have been driven reluctantly to
1514
that extremity, we have seen receiving a degree of relief sufficient only to support life, often with thankfulness and gratitude, and generally without murmur or complaint."
Depend upon it, that in the short and simple annals of the poor there is to be found a heroism not less than that for which often the thanks of Parliament are given; and I trust that hereafter, when we come to look back upon the abundant compliments which hon. Members now pay to that population, there may be some who will change their opinion of them, and think that they are not improper subjects for admission to political power.
MR. HIBBERTsaid, that as he had just come from the suffering district in question, having only taken his seat on the previous night, he should be wanting in his duty to his constituents and himself if he did not offer a few observations on the subject before the House. The feeling among his constituents and in Lancashire generally was that the distress was neither caused by the Government, nor by the Legislature, nor by the employers of labour, but that it arose entirely from the unfortunate war in America. On that account the distress was borne with great patience and exemplary fortitude. It was felt, however, that the time had come when the Poor Law Board might well suspend their labour test, which interfered with the proper distribution of relief. He was sorry to hear that the right hon. Gentleman did not intend to suspend that test, the effect of which was that the guardians of the poor could not give outdoor relief without requiring a certain amount of labour to be performed, or if they did not require it, they were obliged to report the cases to the Poor Law Board. It was humiliating to boards of guardians to be obliged to report every case in which they gave outdoor relief to the able-bodied poor, and that restriction ought not to be imposed upon them when the distress, as at present, was of no common kind. It was calculated that there were upwards of 60,000 workpeople out of employment, and about 200,000 working from two to four days a week. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider his decision as to the labour test, and rely upon the boards of guardians properly performing their duties, and upon the people not seeking relief except when they actually required it. The operatives would then thank the Government for the sympathy which they had shown them in their present distress.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, that as one of the representatives of Lancashire he begged to return his best thanks to the hon. Members for South Lancashire and Carlisle, who had brought the subject before the House, and elicited the satisfactory reply of his right hon. Friend the President of the Poor Law Board. From the information he had taken pains to collect in his district, he believed that very considerable misapprehension existed as to the spirit in which the Poor Law Board were inclined to administer the rules relative to the distribution of outdoor relief. The provision that boards of guardians should report to the Poor Law Board every case in which outdoor relief was given without exacting the labour test, was construed into a prohibition against such relief. The President of the Poor Law Board had, however, stated, that while he did not think it necessary to make any special alteration in the rules of the Board, he should give the amplest liberty to boards of guardians to meet the responsibility which rested upon them. He could not account for the slight diminution which his right hon. Friend said had occurred in some districts in the number of applications for relief. But he trusted that neither he nor the House would imagine that the temporary cessation of distress alluded to was any reason for relaxing the measures which he anticipated would be necessary to meet the impending difficulties, because no man acquainted with the state of the manufacturing districts would venture to predict otherwise than that there was yet great distress to be endured. In the town of Preston the weekly loss of wages to persons engaged in the cotton trade was estimated at £6,291. The relief given, however, only averaged £463. The usual relief at the corresponding period of the year was £130, so that the sum of £333 represented what had been done by the Preston Board of Guardians to meet the withdrawal of a sum of £6,000 heretofore paid in wages. No doubt other causes had been at work to save the poor rates. There had been a relief fund, private charity had been active, and the savings of the operatives had been drawn upon. There had been whispers and suggestions of a public subscription, and a grant from the Consolidated Fund; but not only had no such proposition been entertained by the Lancashire Members, but such an idea had been altogether deprecated. The House had heard the
1516
particulars with respect to what had been doing in Preston for the relief fund, but he denied entirely that the £3,000 raised there represented in any degree the amount of private benevolence in the neighbourhood. Many of the mill owners who had stopped work still continued to feed their hands; and although they undoubtedly might derive some benefit from keeping them together in case of a change in the aspect of affairs, yet it was a generous feeling on their part. The worst thing for the country would be to hold out a hope of a public grant or a public subscription, which would remove from the employers the responsibility that now rested upon them to keep their own workmen employed, or, at any rate, to save them from starvation. He should also deprecate the issue of any Government commission of inquiry, because the fact of the existence of distress was too well known to render it necessary, while such a proceeding would only tend to fill the minds of the operatives with illusory hopes. He could not sit down without adding his tribute of praise to the operatives for their admirable behaviour during the severe crisis through which they were passing. As far as he had been able to learn, their conduct had been admirable. There had scarcely been any remonstrance; there had been no agitation. The only large meeting he had heard of was one to impress on the Government the necessity of repealing the Indian duties. The discussion of that evening might not be of much practical use; but it would be a great comfort and solace to the people who were now enduring distress to know that hon. Members in that House were not indifferent to their great and unmerited calamities.
GENERAL LINDSAYsaid, that on his own part, and on that of the Board of Guardians and the gentlemen intrusted with the management of the relief fund in the town of Wigan, he wished to say that nothing was further from their thoughts than to apply for a sum of money for the distressed operatives out of the Consolidated Fund, until it should have been proved that the rates and private subscriptions were not adequate to meet the case. The universal feeling in Lancashire was that the poor rate was the first resource, the private subscriptions the next; and that an application for any share of the public funds should only be mode as a last resource. He had given his support to the attempt made to raise a Lancashire fund by Lanca-

1517
shire gentlemen, of whom there were many, who, though they did not live in the county, were connected with it and largely interested in the distressed district; but tin; movement was not generally approved, and it was decided to let the Poor Law take its course. In the town which he had the honour to represent (Wigan) the poor rate had not reached a point which would at all justify an appeal to the country; but its amount would certainly have been much greater if it were not for the large fund raised in the borough of Wigan. Nevertheless, comparing the number receiving poor relief with the corresponding week last year, there was a difference of five hundred, and that number would, of course, have been much larger if the whole of those supported from the local fund for the last four months had been thrown upon the rates. The people of Wigan had thought it their duty, as long as they possibly could, to keep those operatives from becoming paupers who were thrown out of employment by a visitation of Providence in the shape of the American war; the Lancashire operatives were a proud race, anxious to help themselves, and doing all they could to avoid receiving relief from extraneous means. With that object a fund of £3,500 had been raised, and that had been recently distributed at the rate of £150 to £180 per week. At present there were no less than 4,500 persons out of employment, in another fortnight that number was expected to be increased by 2,400, and in the course of a month 700 more would probably he added to the number. The speech which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Villiers) had delivered that night was calculated to be a most useful one, for it would have the effect of explaining to the public in Lancashire what the general features of the Poor Law were, and of fortifying the guardians, who were sometimes supposed to shelter themselves behind the Commissioners, in the discharge of their duty. He must express his thanks to the right hon. Gentleman for having sent down an officer of the Government to look into the working of the system in those localities, and to organize and combine the action of the boards of guardians with the different relief committees. As he had recently been at Wigan, he could not conclude without expressing his high admiration of the manner in which the operatives had borne their sufferings during the last winter.
MR. BAZLEYsaid, he also desired to add his testimony to the good conduct and
1518
excellent behaviour of the working people of Lancashire under the severe trial to which they had been exposed, and to which they were still subjected. During the late Parliamentary recess the sympathy of hon. Members of that House had been extensively and effectually extended to meet the coming distress in the manufacturing districts, and, in particular, he would take that opportunity of thanking the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire, who said there could be no sadder spectacle than that of men deprived of the opportunity of labour, when they were willing and able to work. The right hon. President of the Poor Law Board talked of their being subjected to the ordeal of labour; but there must, in that instance, he believed, he some relaxation of the rigid rules by which the administration of the Poor Law was regulated. For, independently of the hardship of exposing men, as honest and industrious as any in that House, to a test which they considered derogatory to their position, the ordinary labour tests would incapacitate their hands from performing those delicate manipulations which they would have to perform if they were ever again to earn their bread by their habitual occupations. It had been unwise in this country to depend on a single source for its supply of the raw material so essential to the national prosperity. The Government of the country had sanctioned the constant increase of the great manufacturing system; the Government had largely participated in the amount of revenue derived from that industry; and yet, with a monopoly of the finest cotton-growing lands in the world, it had left the country dependent on the United States for its supplies. Even at that moment he very much dreaded that no adequate efforts were being made to obtain a supply of cotton from India. The right hon. President of the Poor Law Board readily admitted that in all probability the time of suffering on the part of the people of these islands would be prolonged for a considerable period. If that apprehension were justified, the wisest course on the part of the Government would be by every possible means to stimulate our colonian possessions to the production of raw cotton and, above all, to induce the Government of India to give the requisite facilities for its production. To his own knowledge, the improvement of the navigation of the river Godavery had been under consideration for seven years, but little had yet been done to render that im-

1519
portant river navigable. If cotton could only be brought down from the vast cotton-growing districts of the interior, there would be a supply sufficient for the whole of Lancashire. That very day he had been examining some of the raw material sent from Australia to the International Exhibition, and he had great satisfaction in stating that more beautiful and excellent cotton he had never seen than that contributed by Queensland and New South Wales. If a sufficient population could only be poured into those dependencies, they would supply all the wants of England in a couple of years. Half a million of Chinese or half a million of Coolies set to work in that quarter would produce the cotton Great Britain required, and yet no effort was made to attack at the root the evils of the existing distress. What was needed was not so much assistance in a pecuniary form as that the labouring classes should be placed in a position of entire independence, with the raw material under their control, so that they might be enabled to raise their daily subsistence by their daily labour. He regretted exceedingly that his hon. Friend the Member for North Lancashire (Colonel W. Patten) was not present, as he would have told the House that in the regiment of Lancashire Militia, of which he was colonel, a number of recruits had been lately received who were so prostrated in point of strength as to be incapable of performing the ordinary initiatory movements required from soldiers. Having had occasion some time ago to visit the eastern district of Lancashire, he found most industrious cottagers endeavouring to raise themselves from the working to the proprietary classes by investing their little savings in joint-stock manufacturing establishments; and being unable from their earnings to pay their little calls, they were forced to sell their furniture and to deprive themselves of their little comforts, in order that they might keep the engagements into which they had entered. The working classes were actuated by honest intentions; their desire was to earn a livelihood by their industry, which never before failed them, and only failed them now because the Government had permitted a great trade to be raised upon an artificial basis of supply. He believed that both politically and commercially this country would have been treated better by the United States if it had been less dependent upon them for the supply of its raw cotton. With ample means in their hands, it was not cre-
1520
dible that they had suffered us to be placed in our present position. He hoped that in two or three years they would obtain that full supply of cotton which was as essential to a flourishing condition of the revenue of the country a3 to the prosperity, of the working classes.
MR. W. EGERTONsaid, that he too could not help expressing his admiration of the patience with which the distressed operatives of the northern counties had endured their privations, though that was not altogether a novel circumstance, for the same spirit had been displayed in former visitations of the same kind, when they had suffered from glutted markets, from over-production, or from unfortunate differences between employers and employed. He was also happy to say that there was co-operation between the masters and the operatives, and that many of the former had at great loss to themselves kept their mills at full work. He had listened with much pleasure to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor Law Board. It would be very satisfactory to the operatives in the manufacturing districts, among whom, as shown by meetings recently held at Manchester, there was beginning to be some dissatisfaction with the working of the Poor Law. He trusted that the discussion generally would prove to the operatives of Lancashire and Yorkshire that the House of Commons sympathized with them in their distress, and were no indifferent spectators of the noble patience and endurance with which they had borne their sufferings, and that the Government were not unmindful of their duty to see that the working classes obtained a fair share of relief in time of distress.
MR. GILPINsaid, it was new to him that any feeling of humiliation on the part of boards of guardians existed from their having to report the cases in which they dispensed with the labour test, and he believed they were generally satisfied with the law. Returns of pauperism, though they did not adequately represent destitution, were an index of such destitution; and the figures which the returns gave, confirmed the statement of his right hon. Friend. In the eight weeks ending with April of the present year, and commencing with the second week of March, the numbers relieved in the manufacturing districts were, respectively, as follows:—2nd week, 111,000; 3rd, 111,000 4th, 112,000; 5th, 104,000;

1521
6th, 106,000; 7th, 104,000; 8th, 104,000; and 9th, 105,000. He had received a letter from the clerk to the Manchester guardians, stating, that although returns showed a slight increase in the numbers receiving relief, as compared with the preceding week, the police returns showed an increase of 1,000 operatives in full employment. From Lancaster he had received the following return of the recipients of indoor and outdoor relief for the half-year:—In 1848, 3,556; in 1849,3,180; in 1860, 1,305; and in 1861, 1,419; and the return was accompanied by a report stating that the decrease, large as it was, was real, the regulations, whilst consistent with be nevolence, having done much to eradicate habitual and hereditary pauperism, and to remove stimulants to indolence and profligacy. The hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bazley), when he suggested a relaxation of the "rigid rules of the Poor Law Board," used terms which were not justifiable, either as regarded the rules or the manner and spirit in which they were carried out. It was the desire of the Poor Law Board that the Poor Law should be administered in a generous and at the same time in a just spirit. The House should recollect that there was a class of people who, though they were not paupers, were not far removed from pauperism, and upon them poor rates pressed most severely. He hoped, that if the benevolent would respond to the appeal made to them by the President of the Poor Law Board, the relief which they would contribute would be administered through the medium of the Poor Law authorities. That relief should be partly in kind, and not wholly in money, in order that the families of poor men should receive relief as well as the poor men themselves. The tendency of indiscriminate relief was to demoralize, and a man demoralized by such relief found great difficulty in regaining his former position. He sincerely hoped that this discussion would have the effect of convincing the struggling thousands of Lancashire that an earnest sympathy was felt for them in their distress, that their merits, their fortitude, and their patience were appreciated, and that the authorities were anxious to do everything they properly could for their relief.
SIR MINTO FARQUHARsaid, that although having no connection with the manufacturing districts, he was anxious to express the strong sympathy he felt for
1522
the distress unhappily prevailing there. The subject had been introduced by his hon. Friend the Member for South Lancashire in a most admirable spirit, and it had been responded to by the Minister who had special charge of the interests of the poor in a speech which did him the utmost honour and would give the greatest satisfaction to the country. That right hon. Gentleman showed that the important office he held was not to be worked with hardheartedness, but that there was an elasticity in the Poor Law, which should be administered with kindness towards those who were suffering. The hon. Member for Birmingham had made a most affecting speech, but he regretted that at its close the hon. Member thought fit to introduce a political element into the discussion by appealing to the House whether the men who could bear so much suffering with so much fortitude were not to be trusted with the elective franchise. There was plenty of time to talk of politics in that House, but the subject they were discussing had nothing to do with politics. What they had to consider was how they could best alleviate the distress that existed. The people throughout the manufacturing districts had shown both fortitude and resignation; they had not sought the intervention of the Government to put an end to the known cause of their sufferings, but continued to bear them without complaint, and their conduct would bring on them the admiration of the whole world.

LAWS AND CONSTITUTION OF JERSEY.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. SERJEANT PIGOTTsaid, he rose: to call attention to the Laws and Constitution of Jersey. The subject probably had little interest for that House, but it was of momentous interest to the inhabitant of Jersey, and of some importance to persons living in this country who visited that island. The Supreme Court in Jersey was presided over by a bailliff, who was a legal gentleman appointed and partly paid by the Crown, but the business was really transacted by twelve persons, called jurats, who attended at their own pleasure, and who were wholly uneducated for the duties they were called upon to perform. With that court the great portion of the; residents of St. Heliers, the principal; town, were much dissatisfied. A Commission was issued in 1859 to inquire into the constitution of the court, and they had made a Report which brought home to that

  1523
  court every charge that had been alleged against it. He would give an illustration of the injustice that was committed. A resident of England, who had gone over to Jersey, was arrested there, and required to pay over some trust funds which he had in his possession. He was arrested on mesne process, and he lay in prison two years before he could obtain a decision that his arrest was illegal. If he had paid the money—winch he could not do, for the gum was large—the Court of Chancery in this country would have made him pay it over again when he came to England. The Report also stated that there was an instance of a case which had been before the court seventeen years, and was not yet concluded. It also stated, that if a lord of a manor desired to take a proceeding for trespass, he could not do so without joining every one of his tenants, though he might have fifty, in the suit. That being the state of things, the only question was, by whom was the reform to be effected? As the local legislature of Jersey had not done anything, it only remained for the Imperial Parliament to pass an Act for the purpose. There could be no doubt of the power of the Imperial Parliament to pass such an Act; and as there was a necessity for it, he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would hold out some prospect of a reform of the constitution of the court.
  SIR GEORGE GREY: Sir, before answering the hon. and learned Gentleman's question I am anxious to take this opportunity, of which the strict form of the House might otherwise have deprived me, to say a few words with reference to the subject which has been under discussion for the last two or three hours. I think that the office which hold and the means of information it places at my disposal render it a duty incumbent on me, which I have great satisfaction in performing, to bear my testimony to the admirable conduct of that great body of the working classes in a large portion of Lancashire and in some part of Cheshire in enduring that distress which they have long been suffering, are still suffering, and, I fear, will be called upon for some time longer to suffer. I think they have shown not only great patience and fortitude in enduring the distress which has pressed so severely upon them, but also the greatest good sense and the best judgment in appreciating the causes of their calamity. And, knowing well its causes, they have exhibited forbearance, wisdom, and right feeling in
  1524
  abstaining from urging upon the Government or Parliament that remedy which might have occurred to them as being likely to alleviate their suffering—namely, a departure from that line of strict neutrality which the Government, with the entire concurrence of Parliament, and, I believe, of the country generally, have observed with respect to the unhappy conflict between the Northern and Southern States of America. Their conduct does them infinite credit, and must tend to increase our sympathy for their trying position. I think the discussion which has taken place to-night is likely to be attended with the most beneficial results. At least, it has had this advantage, that it has enabled my right hon. Friend the President of the Poor Law Board to satisfy this House, as I believe he will also satisfy the country, that he and those associated with him in superintending the working of the Poor Law are doing all in their power to render its administration in these distressed districts as efficient as possible, and to carry it out in a spirit suited to the exigency. But it has done more, for I think it has completely removed the misconceptions that have existed as to the motives which induced my hon. Friend the Member for North Lancashire—whose absence am sure we all regret—and others who act with him, in bringing this subject under the notice of the House. It was assumed for a moment by some that those Gentlemen intended to make an appeal on the part of Lancashire for some special relief from the Government. That intention has been disclaimed by every hon. Member connected with the distressed districts who has addressed us. The whole tenour of the discussion has been most creditable to those who originated it, as well as to every speaker representing a constituency affected by this severe visitation. It has shown that in Lancashire there not only exists that heartfelt sympathy between all sections of the community which is the best guarantee for a cordial union of different classes, but also that spirit of self-denial and dependence on their own resources which reflects the greatest honour on those who display it. I trust that what has passed this evening, besides proving that of which, perhaps, a proof was hardly wanted—namely, that the suffering of these districts excites our warmest commiseration—will show that the mode in which the relief is to be administered will, without encouraging fictitious distress, insure substantial aid to

  1525
  those who, from no fault of their own, are enduring the most trying misfortune.
  With regard to the questions of the hon. and learned Member for Reading respecting reforms in the laws of Jersey, no doubt there are great anomalies connected with them, but I think the same reasons which induced Parliament last year to abstain from passing a Bill dealing with the subject, will induce it now to abstain from pledging itself to any particular reforms, unless it is satisfactorily shown that the same cannot be effected by the action of the States of Jersey. From communications I have recently received I am led to believe that steps are being taken to effect the reforms that are needed, and in the mean time I do not think it is incumbent upon this House to interfere.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that there had been two Royal Commissions—one as far back as sixteen years ago. The result of the inquiries showed that it was impossible to obtain justice under existing circumstances in Jersey, property consequently nearly lost its value, and persons charged with crimes were left untried for long periods. Nothing, however, had been done in consequence, and he had no hopes of anything being done by the States of Jersey from what had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman.
  MR. VINCENT SCULLYfeared they were going back to the old bad habit of jumping from one subject to another on Friday nights. There were sixteen different questions on the paper that night upon the question of going into Committee of Supply, and four others in Committee. He thought it would be better when one hare was started to follow it up until it escaped or was killed. He intended to speak only upon three of the questions that had been mooted that evening. The first was with respect to grand jury reform in Ireland, respecting which the Chief Secretary had said nothing at all, notwithstanding the hon. Member for Waterford had expressed his conviction that he would receive a satisfactory and straightforward reply, He hoped the question would again be put on Monday; and if it were not satisfactorily replied to, that it would be asked again on Tuesday. Then, a question had been asked with respect to the Royal Court of Jersey. He had inquired into the subject with great interest, and before he entered Parliament he had the audacity to publish a pamphlet—he believed it had long been
  1526
  out of print—in which the matter was discussed. He thought the Court required very great reform, and he believed its reform had been neglected on account of the proximity of the island to France. With regard to the distress in Lancashire, he was glad to hear that the Government mot it with such sympathy and such a disposition to do what could be done for its relief; and he only wished that in the case of the equal, if not greater distress, in Ireland the same amount of sympathy had been displayed. He would also express a further wish that the Irish had the present Home Secretary for England as Chief Secretary for Ireland, and that the English had the present Chief Secretary for Ireland for their Home Secretary.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
House in Committee.
MR. MASSEY in the Chair.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £116,695, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will tome in course of payment during the year ending on the 3Istday of March 1863, for the General Management of the Department of Science and Art, of the Schools throughout the Kingdom in connection with the Department, and of the Geological Surveys of Great Britain and Ireland, &c."
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, he thought that the directorship of the Museum of Irish Industry, on its becoming vacant, should not be filled up again; and that the Museum of Irish Industry should, as soon as possible, be made one institution with the Royal Dublin Society. Originally the Irish Museum was instituted as a boon to the Roman Catholics, but the present Director, Sir Robert Kane, was also Principal of the Queen's College at Cork. When he was performing his duties at Dublin, he was necessarily neglecting his duties at Cork, and vice versâ; and all he asked the Government was, that when next Sir f Robert Kane betook himself to Cork, he should remain there; and that the directorship should not be filled up. He also hoped that the Irish Museum would be incorporated with the Royal Dublin Society as speedily as possible. He could not move to reduce the Vote, inasmuch as salaries were now due; but he hoped the Government would direct their attention to the subject in future.
MR. LOWEsaid, there was great jus-

1527
tice in what the hon. Gentleman had said, and the Government would communicate with the Lord Lieutenant and see if the change could be effected. There was, however, one difficulty in the way, and that was the constitution of the Royal Dublin Society. Its government was in the hands of a committee, who were elected by the Society at large. That point, therefore, would have to be considered, and negotiations taken.
MR. COGANsaid, he thought that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Adderley) had acted with some injustice in attacking an absent Gentleman, Sir Robert Kane. The Museum of Irish Industry was founded by Sir Robert himself, who was a man of high scientific attainments, and by developing its resources he had been of great service to Ireland. It was to be regretted that there was nobody connected with Ireland on the Treasury Bench to explain the objects of so useful an institution. He might add that at the formation of the Queen's Colleges there had been great difficulty in obtaining officers for them, and it was at the earnest solicitation of the Government that Sir Robert had accepted the principalship.
MR. O'BRIENsaid, he hoped that the Museum of Irish Industry would be maintained as a separate institution, and not amalgamated with the Dublin Society, which was a private association. He thought Government should have ascertained the feelings of the Irish Members before expressing an opinion upon the subject.
MR. VANCEadmitted that there ought not to be two Museums in Dublin. He thought that the Royal Society effected ten times as much for science and art in Ireland as the other institutions.
MR. HENNESSYsaid, there was no institution in Ireland of more practical value than the Museum of Irish Industry, which, without explanation or consideration, had been so rashly condemned by the Vice President of the Education Committee. The object of the Museum was to develop the industrial resources of Ire land, and it had fulfilled its mission with remarkable success under the able directorship of Sir Robert Kane. It was to be regretted that Ireland was governed by a body of gentlemen who knew nothing whatever about it, and who were ready at any moment to sweep away its most useful institutions. There were two similar institutions in London, which cost a much larger sum, and he hoped the noble Lord
1528
at the head of the Government would, under the circumstances of the case, see the expediency of directing his attention to the subject.
MR. DILLWYNsaid, that while disclaiming anything like hostility to the South Kensington Museum, he could not but express a doubt as to the propriety of voting the public money for its support. It was not the duty of the Government to give high art education to those who could afford to obtain it for themselves without assistance. He did not think that the recent progress in art had arisen from votes such as that under consideration. But, in some respects, he doubted the existence of progress at all. The Trafalgar fountains, the Duke of Wellington's funeral car, the Guards' monument in Waterloo Place, and the Exhibition building, were not instances in favour of Government teaching in art. The improvement of art as illustrated in our manufactures he attributed, not to Governmental instruction, but rather to the influence of the railway system, the freer intercourse between nation and nation which, as a consequence prevailed, and the existence of such exhibitions as the present and that of 1851. Under those circumstances, he felt disposed to ask the House to reduce the Vote to the amount at which it stood last year, and thus mark its sense of the small value which it set on Government interference, while vested interests were left untouched. On all the items of the Vote that were increased over the sum voted last year he proposed to move a reduction to the amount of the excess. All he wished to do was to lay down a principle. Those who objected to the Government becoming a teacher of drawing throughout the country would support him. He moved that the Vote be reduced by £7,106.
MR. H. SEYMOURobjected to so many Votes being placed together under one head; nine Votes were included in the total sum asked for. In it art, science, and navigation were amalgamated; and he thought that art and science must feel some surprise at the strange company in which they were thus placed. He believed the Government schools of art throughout the kingdom were to a great extent valueless, and that they entailed an expense very much disproportioned to any advantage they conferred. The schools at South Kensington were frequented by the most fashionable young ladies in London,

1529
who paid nominal sums for the instruction which they would otherwise derive from private masters, and the private masters wore thrown out of employment. The Vice President of the Board of Education deprecated the increase of Government masters, and, to he consistent, he ought to vote for the Amendment. If the Amendment were carried, no harm would be done, because there was a balance of £22,000 in hand, the surplus of monies already voted by Parliament. He had opposed the photographic establishment, in which item alone there was a decrease, and he doubted whether there were any photographs which would sell for £1,250. The number of visitors fell from 610,000 in 1860 to 604,000 in 1861, and the receipts from the public from £2,000 to £1,400; so that as the expense increased the interest in the department decreased. Captain Fowke was employed to build a picture gallery at South Kensington, and the public were invited to see how cheap and good it was, but the year afterwards £27,000 had to be voted be cause the gallery was unsafe. They had seen what were the powers of Captain Fowke. Those powers had culminated in the Great Exhibition, and they might now be quite sure that whatever advantages his buildings possessed they could not boast of either elegance or beauty. He doubted the expediency of having a Science and Art Department tit all, and he would advise the Government to withdraw the Vote.
MR. AUGUSTUS SMITHsaid, be wished to call the attention of the Committee to the great increase which had of late years taken place in the amount of that Vote. In 1847 it was £8,000, and it had risen to £116,000 a year. He believed it would be better to leave the encouragement of science and art to private enterprise, instead of placing them under the patronage of the Government. As an instance, the Crystal Palace was infinitely better than the new Exhibition building.
MR. BLACKsaid, he believed that the establishment of these schools of design led to great abuse, as many persons who sent their children to them had ample means of giving them a private education in any accomplishment they might think proper. The efforts of private teachers were thus discouraged, and the interference of the Government was productive of real evil.
MR. BLACKBURNsaid, he thought it was high time that some check should be put upon the constantly increasing ex-
1530
penditure in the Kensington Museum. Last year it was £18,000, this year £22,000.
MR. LOWEobserved, that it had been the opinion of that House that the manufactures of the country, though possessing many admirable and durable qualities, were deficient in grace and elegance. That led to the institution of the department now under consideration, and there was no doubt that it had answered the object in view. Specimens in various manufactures now to be seen in the Great Exhibition, and remarkable for their beauty, were the work of persons educated in the Department of Science and Art. A complaint had been made that the Estimate was continually increasing. That was the very merit of it. When the Department was founded 8,000 pupils were learning under the system at £3 5s. 6d. per bead. Now there are 91,000 pupils at only a cost of 8s. per head. It had been said that persons belonging to the highest classes came to the schools; but, if they did, they paid a larger sum than others, and thus it was that the department was able to educate the rest so cheaply, and the terms which a master on receiving his certificate agreed to were that he should teach artisans three times a week at 6d, per week, and give a certain amount of gratuitous instruction to poor children. The proposed Amendment, notwithstanding what had been said to the contrary, really affected vested interests. There was also an increase of £250 for prizes, which was owing to this, that there were a good many more pupils, though the value of the prizes had been diminished. Then, if there were more schools, there should be more masters, which would account for the increase for salaries from £17,500 to £18,000, and so, also, more Inspectors would be required. In the management of the photographic department considerable improvements had been made. They had got rid altogether of positive photographs, and sold only negatives, to purchasers who would give the best terms to the public. Then there was an increase of one-third to the space appropriated to the museum, and that, of course, involved additional expense for stoves, fittings, and furniture. They held examinations for the masters in science in November, and for the pupils of those masters in May every year, and the candidates could not be collected without advertising for them. Owing to a rule which had been laid down by the Marquess of Salisbury and the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Adderley) an

1531
astonishing impulse had been given to the spread of education in science throughout the country, for the master was to be paid only for each pupil who passed an examination. It was not for replacing the picture galleries, which were models of what such galleries should be, and which no one could see without admiration, that the House had voted £27,000, but for buildings to replace the wooden school. He did not think it was the wish of the House to take away their salaries from men who had earned them, or, having built a museum, to deprive those who had charge of it of the means of lighting, warming, and keeping it in order, especially-at a time when so much was being done to spread a knowledge of science and art throughout the country.
LORD HENRY LENNOXsaid after the explanation which they had just heard from the Vice President of the Committee of Council, he was sure the hon. Member for Swansea would admit, at least, the advantage of having in that House a Minister who was responsible for the control of that institution, for the maintenance of which they were called upon to vote public money. Every one must see the utility of having Ministers who were responsible for the several departments of science and art in that House. Of all the Art Institutions of the country, he agreed with the Vice President, it was the South Kensington Museum which partook most of a national character, and that it was with that institution that the idea had originated of circulating works of art through the country. When the unhappy photographer was near setting fire to the British Museum by his apparatus, the managers thought they could do nothing to prevent the recurrence of such an accident; but that was not the case with those who had charge of the Kensington Museum, for they had devised a scheme which enabled them to light the Museum four nights in the week, and the vast majority of those who visited it at night were composed of the working classes. In proof of the good that the institution had done he would conclude by quoting the words of the Committee which sat upon the subject. They said in their Report that they had arrived at the opinion that the South Kensington Museum in respect of its action, as well throughout the United Kingdom as in the metropolis, was exercising a most beneficial influence, and that it was well deserving the continued and liberal support of Parliament.
COLONEL SYKESwould support the Vote, as the South Kensington Museum was the most instructive building in the country.
MR. DILLWYNsaid, that the salaries of Gentlemen in other departments had not increased in the same ratio as those of the officers of the Kensington Museum, and he did not see that the latter were more deserving of increased salaries than those who belonged to other departments.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That a sum, not exceeding £109,689, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1863, for the General Management of the Department of Science and Art, of the Schools throughout the Kingdom in connection with the Department, and of the Geological Surveys of Great Britain and Ireland, &c."
The Committee divided;—Ayes 48; Noes 111: Majority 63.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
House resumed. Resolution to be reported on Monday next; Committee to sit again on Monday next.

BRITISH MUSEUM.

  LEAVE, FIRST READING.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Trustees of the British Museum to remove portions of their Collections. The object of the Bill was to enable the Trustees to remove certain of their collections to South Kensington. The Bill also contained provisions with regard to certain outlying parts of collections which were not strictly contained in those collections themselves. He hoped the print of the Bill would be in hon. Members' hands in a few days.
  Leave given.
  Bill to enable the Trustees of the British Museum to remove portions of their Collections, ordered to be brought in by Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Viscount PALMERSTON.
  Bill presented, and read 1°; to be read 2° on Thursday next, and to be printed [Bill 108].
  House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock, till Monday next.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Red Sea and India Telegraph Company; Smoke Nuisance (Metropolis) Acts Amendment.
2a Bills of Exchange (Ireland) Act (1861) Amendment.
3a Transfer of Stocks (Ireland).

NOXIOUS VAPOURS.

  MOTION FOR SELECT COMMITTEE.
  THE EARL OF DERBY, in rising to move for the appointment of a Select Committee "to inquire into the Injury resulting from noxious vapours evolved in certain manufacturing Processes, and into the State of the Law relating thereto," said, that in the absence of more exciting topics of discussion, he hoped he need offer no apology to their Lordships for bringing under their notice as briefly as he could a subject which was certainly altogether removed from the range of party or political questions:—so far removed, that his only fear in dealing with that subject was, that he should not be able to attract to it the attention of the House in a degree commensurate with its real importance. It was, however, one of a class of questions which, upon sanitary and economic grounds, could not fail every day to force itself more and more upon the notice of Parliament and the country. We as a nation were proud of the rapid increase in our population—an increase which each year continued to progress, notwithstanding the swarms of people which we annually sent from our shores to replenish the populations of other countries, and perhaps to found new Empires. We exulted still more in the fact, that notwithstanding temporary checks, our manufacturing industry more than kept pace with the amount of our growing population; and no man would be insane enough to suggest any measure which would be likely to result in placing the slightest check in the way of those two great elements of our national prosperity. We must

  1453
  not, however, conceal from ourselves that this growing population and these extending manufactures were not unaccompanied with evils which well deserved the serious consideration of the Legislature. Their Lordships had already taken some steps in reference to the subject to which he was about to call their notice. Not many years ago some stringent measures were introduced, affecting, it was true, only the metropolis, for the purpose of abating what was known as the smoke nuisance. These measures included within their scope the operations of more than one noxious trade, and were, so far as the metropolis was concerned, attended with great advantage. Now, as a Lancashire man, he was not prepared to embark upon any course so extravagant as a crusade against the smoke nuisance. Indeed, he was bound to admit—and he did so with great regret—that that was a nuisance which was regarded with great indifference, if not with great complacency, by a large portion of the population in the manufacturing districts. The House of Commons was, he might add, at the present moment occupied in a kindred inquiry to that to which he invited their Lordships' attention—an inquiry of the utmost importance, with respect to which he entertained very sanguine anticipations, and which he hoped would be attended by beneficial results. He alluded to the inquiry into the question how far we might be able to utilize for the benefit of the country the enormous mass of sewage in the different towns of England, which was at present not only absolutely wasted—thereby contravening every intention of nature and Providence, which designed that every material should be made the means of efficient reproduction and increased fertility—but was converted into a source of contamination, poisoning our rivers and streams. It was only last year, he might remind the House, that in order to attain an object not, he allowed, unimportant, but in comparison with such considerations as the due maintenance of the health and cultivation of the country, comparatively insignificant, a measure was introduced to provide for the better preservation of salmon by enacting stringent provisions against the pollution of rivers. Now, he was sure their Lordships were, generally speaking, unaware of the extent to which that pollution was carried, to the detriment of the health of the community and to the prejudice of the productive powers of the land; and although the case did not fall
  1454
  precisely within the terms of his Motion, he might be permitted to mention that a very eminent chemist, Dr. Lyon Playfair, had told him the other day, that complaints having been made with regard to the quality of the water served out in a certain manufacturing town in the North, he had been called upon to examine it professionally, and found—a material increase in the amount of arsensic and preparations of lead having taken place in certain processes of calico-printing in the town, and the refuse water having been discharged into the stream—that while in the water itself there was no appreciable quantity of arsenic, yet that one pound of the mud at the bottom of the river which supplied the drinking water for the population of the place, contained no less than from ten to thirteen grains of arsenic. That fact clearly showed, he thought, how worthy was the question of serious consideration. That, however, was not the subject on which he was about to address them. That to which he wished to draw specially the attention of the House was the evolution of noxious vapours in certain manufacturing processes. In doing so, he deemed it to be his duty not only to point out the injury inflicted upon a neighbourhood with which he was well acquainted, but also to show before the Committee, which he trusted their Lordships would appoint, that that injury might be easily obviated by means simple and comparatively inexpensive. Beyond that, he thought he should be able to prove that in many cases the very refuse which was the cause of pollution might be made a source of profit to the manufacturers themselves, and that the law as it at present stood was insufficient to enable private individuals or the public to obtain adequate redress in those instances in which they suffered from the causes to which he was adverting. He hoped, then, that their Lordships would bear with him while he endeavoured to establish three propositions—first, the amount of injury now inflicted; second, its preventibility; and thirdly, the inadequacy of the present law to afford a remedy. What the term "noxious vapours" might be held to comprise he could not exactly define. Still less could he say how far the Committee for the appointment of which he asked might deem it right to carry their inquiry. He might, however, observe that under the head "noxious vapours" three distinct classes might be ranged. There was that class which was simply

  1455
  offensive without being injurious to health or vegetation. He did not know whether it was strictly correct to term this class "noxious," but certainly they could be indicted as nuisances at common law. There was another, arising from the manufactures connected with the decomposition of animal and vegetable substances, which was not only exceedingly offensive, but highly detrimental to health and unfavourable to life, yet produced no injurious effects on the vegetable kingdom. There was a third class, partaking chiefly, he believed, of a mineral character and perfectly inoffensive, unless it prevailed in very great excess, so far as injury to animal life or health was concerned, but absolutely destructive of vegetable existence. Without wearying their Lordships with a numerous catalogue of instances in illustration of his argument, he might refer to a manufacture of great and increasing importance—he alluded to the manufacture of alkalies. That manufacture was carried on extensively in a neighbourhood with which he was well acquainted—St. Helens—as well as in Newcastle-on-Tyne, and also, more or less, in Glasgow and other districts. It was most important, considering the extent to which alkali entered into various manufactures, and the large export as well as the home trade. It was impossible to ascertain the amount of the produce of alkali works retained for home consumption, because there was no excise, and therefore no means of obtaining correct information; but he held in his hand a report of the amount exported from this country from 1840 to 1860 of soda and pot and pearl ashes, from which he found, that while in 1840 the extent to which the latter was exported was only 237 cwt., the value being £594; in 1854 the export reached 22,596 cwt., the value being £32,611. But that was a very minor branch of the manufacture. The export of soda amounted in 1840 to 75,704 cwt., or to the value of £44,575, while in the year 1860 the quantity exported was 2,049,582 cwt., the value nearly reaching a million sterling. That enumeration related simply to soda and pearl ashes, and left out of account the important classes of soaps and bleached goods, into which they entered largely, as well as the amount manufactured for home consumption. When their Lordships bore in mind those facts, as well as the circumstance that the articles in question entered into the manufacture of paper, glass, and a hundred other substances, as well as the
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  circumstance that one manufactory, and that by no means on the largest scale, turned out in 1846 about 50 tons of soda a week, and in the present year nearly 100 tons a week, they would have some idea of the extent of the manufacture to which he was adverting. He believed he should be confirmed by his noble Friend near him (Lord Ravensworth) when he stated that in the town of Newcastle-on-Tyne one of these great manufacturers employed 1,000 persons, and covered, under one roof, 16 acres of land. He fairly admitted that this statement of the fact of the great extent of these trades was, indeed, capable of cutting both ways. In the first place, it showed the immense amount of injury that might be inflicted from the want of proper precautions, but it must also impress their Lordships with the degree of caution with which it was necessary to approach any legislation on the subject of a trade so important to the manufacturing interest of this country. If at any time it was important that no undue interference should take place, it would be so at a moment when a great portion of our manufacturers in the north were suffering under the deepest depression, and when the diminution of manufacturing employment would be a more than ordinary calamity. He was the last person who would desire to interfere with the increase of our manufacturing prosperity, if only for the reason that half of his property was situated in the manufacturing districts, and its prosperity or deterioration depended on the prosperity or depression of the manufacturing interest. Therefore they would not expect any proposition to proceed from him likely to offer the slightest impediment to the great manufactures of the country. Those of their Lordships who had travelled by the London and North Western Railway might recollect having seen between Warrington and Newton one of the most beautiful specimens of brickwork to be seen in this or any other country. It was a tower or column 131 yards in height, and one of the most beautiful pieces of brickwork possible to be conceived. This tower was erected by Mr. Muspratt, the celebrated chemist, to meet the objection raised in the neighbourhood on the score of the great injury caused by the exhalations from his works. But this attempt to avoid the cause of complaint, though made in entire good faith, had only the effect of carrying the vapour a little further off, inflicting thereby injury on more distant proprietors,

  1457
  and increasing the difficulty of tracing it home to its source. Perhaps he might take the opportunity of mentioning shortly what was the process of this manufacture. The process of the manufacture of soda was carried on by the decomposition of common salt by means of sulphuric acid. In most of the manufactories, the manufacture of the acid was also carried on in other parts of the same building, for the sake of convenience. The sulphuric acid was produced by the combination of nitre and sulphur, and these together gave forth most objectionable and injurious vapours. But, fortunately, it was to the interest of the manufacturers of sulphuric acid to condense the whole of these vapours, in order to in crease the amount and profit of the manufacture; and therefore in most of these works, where the manufacture of sulphuric acid was carried on, no inconvenience or injury was sustained by the neighbourhood. But, unfortunately, a similar condensation was not, or was not so well understood to be, to the interest of the manufacturers with respect to the gasses evolved in the manufacture of soda—that was from the action of the sulphuric acid upon the salt, which gave out a large amount of muriatic acid gas, most injurious to vegetation. These works of Mr. Muspratt were first begun after the year 1831 or 1832, and for some years there were great complaints among the neighbouring tenants and farmers of the injury done to their crops, fences, and trees. From time to time allowances were made, and the complaints were silenced, until at last the evil became intolerable, particularly to the large proprietors in the neighbourhood; and in 1846 the late Mr. Legh, proprietor of a large portion of land in the neighbourhood, and a relative of the present Member for South Lancashire, obtained a considerable amount in compensation from Mr. Muspratt. The Rev. J. Hornby, the rector of Winwick, also obtained compensation to the amount of £1,300 at one time for the destruction of his timber and crops. He (the Earl of Derby) had himself seen a thriving oak plantation which had been entirely destroyed by the gas proceeding from these works. These actions and damages did not stop the manufacture, which went on increasing, until at last Mr. Legh, in 1851, having had the whole of the timber of his estate either killed or so damaged that he was obliged at a great loss to cut it down, brought another action, claiming damages to the amount of £17,000; but, before
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  the action, Mr. Muspratt compromised the matter by the payment of £2,000 and the costs, and by a promise, which was punctually performed, to pull down and destroy the whole of his works. It might appear that in this case the remedy was perfectly successful; but in the mean time there had sprung tip in the neighbourhood of St. Helens, two or three miles from Newton, and, according to the prevailing average of the wind, considerably to the windward of the latter place, a very considerable number of other works, against the owners of which the neighbouring proprietors were compelled to bring actions. In 1839 Sir John Gerard recovered £1,300 damages; in 1846, £2,000; and in 1852 he commenced an action for £4,000, which was suspended through his illness and death. In the mean time various other manufactures sprang up, and it was unnecessary to state that the increase of the number of manufactures very materially increased the difficulty of tracing home the injury inflicted upon any particular landed proprietor to the proper source; but it was a remarkable fact, that when Mr. Muspratt's works were destroyed, the improvement in the vegetation, hedges, and young trees was instantaneous. But since the great increase of works in St. Helen's the country was again showing traces, though not to so serious an extent, of the injury it sustained during the period when Mr. Muspratt's works were in operation. But what was the state of the country in consequence of the manufactures at St. Helen's might be conceived from the fact, that in the direction in which the wind ordinarily blew, for three or four miles hardly a living tree was to be seen, though in his memory it used to be thickly covered with hedges and timber—not of the first quality, perhaps—and with very extensive young plantations. Now he ventured to say, that within a radius of two or three miles from St. Helens there was hardly a standing tree at this moment; and if one was to be seen as a person travelled by the railway, it was standing leafless and branchless, giving to the whole country an air of desolation and destitution not to be seen in any other part of the kingdom, except in a neighbourhood with which the President of the Council was acquainted, known by the name of "the black country," in which vegetation certainly did not thrive. He was prepared to show not only that the trees and the country were destroyed, but that, contrary to the ordinary rule, there had been a remarkable depreciation in the

  1459
  value of the property around in consequence of the establishment of these works. In a distance of two or three miles from St. Helens there had been a deterioration in the value of the landed property to the extent of £200,000 within the last few years. The rent of the land, instead of rising, as it generally did, in proportion to the increase of neighbouring towns, was falling rapidly, and to some distance from these works the hedges were destroyed, as if blasted by fire. It was rather curious that the effect on growing crops was not so great as on timber and hedges, and he could only account for this fact by supposing that it arose from the timber and hedges being exposed continuously and year after year to the action of these noxious vapours, while the crops were only exposed to them for three or four months, and in some directions they almost escaped injury, probably in consequence of the prevailing direction of the wind. It appeared, however, that in one instance the crop had been destroyed in one night to the extent of a third, and it was stated that these vapours caused cows to slip their calves, and that sheep would not thrive on grass subject to the constant action of the vapours. In this district there had formerly existed a great number of orchards, on the produce of which many of the peasantry chiefly relied for the payment of their rents; the orchards were now destroyed, and the poor tenantry and cottagers suffered great injury from the loss of the fruit. The cases of these persons deserved consideration, for they were not like their wealthy neighbours; they could not afford litigation, and had no chance of enforcing damages against a wealthy manufacturer for the destruction of their produce. He had heard of the case of a person in moderate circumstances who had purchased a freehold in the north of England, and invested the whole of his capital in the establishment of a nursery in what was then a most favourable situation. A building was subsequently erected in which one of these noxious manufactures was carried on, and he could see a white vapour, perfectly distinguishable, steadily proceeding in a horizontal direction, going further or less far according to the state of the atmosphere, and lighting on the spot where he had planted his nursery. That man was literally driven by those vapours from the spot in which he had embarked his capital, and nothing would tempt him to remain longer
  1460
  in a place in which so large a portion of his means had been destroyed. Such was the state of things near St. Helens. His (the Earl of Derby's) own house was about six miles distant from St. Helens, and at that distance he could not trace the damage to the manufactures, and still less to any particular manufacture; but, certainly, on that side there had been of late a very considerable decay in the older timber, and, to a certain extent, he attributed it to the effect of this poisonous vapour. He had been told by persons who had crossed his park, especially very early in the morning, that they became sensible of a very pungent vapour—though, as he had said, this was four or five miles from the place where these manufactures were carried on—which made their eves smart, and which left an exceedingly acrid and unpleasant taste upon the lips. He had mentioned those instances merely as a sample of what might be found in other districts of the country, and what he had stated with regard to his own neighbourhood was far from the whole of the case. Now, he would not have thought those circumstances sufficient to invite their Lordships to appoint a Committee, still less to legislate, were it not that he was prepared to show that, with regard to most of these manufactures, and especially with regard to alkali, there was a most perfect and complete remedy—a remedy admitted by the manufacturers themselves. This particular muriatic acid gas had such an affinity for water that a certain quantity of water would absorb 480 times its amount of gas; and, consequently, as the gas passed from the furnace into the chimney, the simplest and most effective of all remedies was to meet it with a constant supply of water, and thus absorb it. The most approved method now was to pack the chimneys with coke made very small, through which the vapour ascended, and down which the water fell, absorbing the vapour and completely condensing it. He was bound to say, to the credit of many of the manufacturers, that they carefully attended to this matter, and that so far as their works were concerned, very little injury was done, in consequence of the complete condensation of the gas. He was sorry to say, with respect to others, that they did not take the same precautions, and they trusted for impunity to the difficulty of bringing an action, and of tracing home to the proper parties the injury which was sustained. Unfortunately, too, in avoiding Scylla, some had fallen into Charybdis;

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  because, instead of turning the water which came down the chimneys to some useful purpose, it was allowed to make its way to some neighbouring brook, which it as effectually poisoned as the gas poisoned the air. But he had no doubt that this water might be, and indeed had been, by very simple chemical means, converted into a source of absolute profit. There were other manufactures, however, such as copper-smelting works, which produced a gas for which it was more difficult to find a remedy. But should their Lordships appoint a Committee, he held himself bound to show, not only the extent of the mischief, but also, by scientific evidence, that all or a considerable portion of it was easily preventive; and as the maxim held good, Sic utere tuo ut alterum non lœdas, there would be nothing unfair in calling upon the manufacturers to abate the mischief. The law as it present stood did not afford a sufficient remedy. For the purposes of prevention the English law was absolutely silent, except with regard to one very partial provision. In 1848, and again in 1858, under the Public Health Act, a certain discretionary power was given to prevent the creation of nuisances of the description to which he alluded. But there were only two remedies which were open—one to individuals, and the other to the public; the one by an action for damages, the other by an indictment for nuisance at common law. He was not going to ask their Lordships to imitate the principles or practice of the French law, the provisions of which were very stringent in such cases; but he held in his hand a report which was presented to both Houses of Parliament in 1855, and which was signed by Dr. Waller Lewis, medical officer to the General Post Office, on the laws of France upon the subject. He found by the law of France that those noxious occupations, 212 in number, were divided into three separate classes, 67 being in the first class, 78 in the second, and 67 in the third; and he would show with regard to the most noxious class the precautions with which French legislation had surrounded it—
  "The establishments of the first class are those that must be kept at a distance from private habitations; but it is not necessary that they be prohibited from the outskirts of a town. To the authorities belongs the duty of examining if the isolation is sufficient, having regard to the importance of the works, to the nature and configuration of the soil, and to the importance of the surrounding dwellings. The demand for authority (i. e. for permission to establish) must be directed to the
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  Prefect of the Department, and to the prefect of police for the jurisdiction of the Prefecture of the Seine. The demand must be accompanied by two plans, one indicating the connections of the proposed works with the neighbouring lands and habitations, the other showing its internal arrangements. The demand for authority is placarded in all the communes within a radius of five kilometres (three miles) and must remain exposed during one entire month. Besides this, the Mayor of the commune where the works are to be erected must hold an inquiry (une enquête) de commodo et incommodo among the nearest neighbours. This inquiry, drawn up by the mayors, consists of evidence gathered by themselves personally, or communicated by those interested in the matter; it constitutes one of the most important formalities preceding the authorization. All the documents are transmitted to the Prefect, who submits them to the Council of Health, and afterwards to the Council of Prefecture, if there is any opposition. When these various formalities have been gone through, the Prefect sends the whole of the documents to the Minister of Commerce, with his recommendations, whatever they may be; when, after submitting the proposal to the advice of the Council of State, the Minister proposes to the chief of the Government an order of refusal or authorization, which the Prefect is charged with executing."
  The formalities with respect to the other classes were precisely similar, except that the documents were not submitted to the Minister of Commerce or the Minister of State; but occupations of the second class might be authorized by the prefect, and those of the third class by the sub-prefect. He was not going to ask their Lordships to adopt such stringent regulations, but he would give a few examples of the difficulty of obtaining redress under our laws. In the year 1839 Sir John Gerard recovered £1,000 from Mr. Crossfield, but at an expense of £500 above that sum. In 1846 Sir John brought actions for £6,000; he recovered £2,000, but at an expense of £900. In 1849 he received £450 on threat of proceedings. In 1852 he brought an action for more than £4,000, and went to considerable expense; but that action was never tried, owing to his death. It might be asked why his brother, Sir R. Gerard, did not go on with the action? For this reason—that in the mean time the manufacturers had so increased in numbers that it was very difficult to trace the injury to any particular manufacturer, and therefore a person aggrieved would have no chance of recovering damages. In an action for damages he believed it was necessary to prove, in the first place, not only the amount and extent of the injury sustained, but also by what specific manufacturer the injury was caused. And although, in some few cases, a large proprie-

  1463
  tor might have succeeded at a very great expense in obtaining large damages, yet in no case, except that of Mr. Muspratt, had they succeeded in putting down the nuisance. Action after action was brought and the damages were paid, the business being so profitable as to render it worth while to the manufacturer to run all risks. He could mention the case of a small farmer near St. Helens. The injury he suffered was so notorious that the proprietor voluntarily paid him an allowance of £40 or £50 a year for the injury he was doing. The manufacturer disposed of his works, and the farmer went to his successor to ask him to continue the allowance. He refused, saying, "Go to so and so. His works are within fifty yards of mine, and it is he who does you the injury. At any rate, you must prove that it is done by my works, and until you do you will not get any compensation from me. "It might be said that an application might be made to the Court of Chancery for an injunction to restrain the nuisance. But it was probable the remedy might be worse than the disease, for the first thing the Court of Chancery would do would be to direct an issue to be tried at law to ascertain whether this was a recurring and continuous damage, and the injured party would find himself driven to all the expense and annoyance of an action at law with a doubtful result. He believed that such an injunction might be applied for. He gathered from an observation made by his noble and learned Friend behind him (Lord Chelmsford) that such an injunction could not be applied for, and certainly would not be granted. There remained another remedy—the remedy by indictment. But in order to sustain an indictment it was necessary to prove not only an amount of injury suffered by a particular individual, but also that it was a general injury, so affecting the community as to amount to a common nuisance. It was also necessary to show that the nuisance was continuous, and not a casual and accidental nuisance, occurring at particular times. Then there was the same difficulty, in proceeding by indictment, in bringing home a nuisance to a particular individual, when there were many works of a similar character in the same neighbourhood. In addition to this difficulty, a person who proceeded by indictment had no chance of receiving any compensation, because the indictment was a criminal proceeding. If he gained his action, indeed, he might receive a certain
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  amount of costs, but an amount quite insufficient to cover the expense to which he had been put. As to the person who was found guilty of the nuisance, he was only bound over on his recognizances to appear before the Court of Queen's Bench when called upon, to submit to the penalty imposed by the Court, which was always lenient, and often merely nominal. It might be said that there was nothing so simple as an indictment. He recollected a case that occurred four years ago, "The Queen v. Spence," where the works were in the neighbourhood of Manchester. That was an action for nuisance arising out of the manufacture of ammonia and alum. In this case there were four Queen's counsel for the plaintiff, and four for the defendant. The costs of the defendant amounted to £4,000, and the plaintiff's costs, for some reason he could not explain, to £2,000. This he knew from the circumstance that he, as a landlord, was one of the contributors, at the instance of his tenants, who were injured. The case was tried at Liverpool, and occupied three days. There were eight learned gentlemen on each side; not less than forty-eight witnesses were examined, and the total expense, as he had said, was £6,000. If the nuisance had been done away, that money would have been well spent; but the nuisance was not got rid off. The defendant was immediately advised to apply for a new trial, involving fresh expense, while the nuisance was going on. Affidavits were filed, but fortunately, before the application was made, it was discovered that the defendant was prohibited by his lease from putting up any buildings of the character which he had erected. An application was made to the Court of Chancery, and an injunction was obtained on the ground of a violation of his lease. He would now ask their Lordships whether he had not substantiated his statement, that a man of moderate fortune and means was without a remedy in such cases. Legislation in this direction had, no doubt, been attempted, but it was only partial in its operation, and not always intrusted to the best hands. The Public Health Act gave to local Boards of Health the power of preventing, for the future, the erection of these noxious and injurious works; but this provision was confined to those districts where local Boards of Health had been established. Moreover, it unfortunately happened frequently that the persons of the greatest influence at these local boards were those who were

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  most prominent in producing the nuisance. No great aid could, therefore, be expected at their hands. The Nuisance Removal Act also made some provision in this direction. If a manufacturer caused an offensive effluvium, which was certified by the medical officer to be injurious to health, and a nuisance, and if the best practicable means had not been used to remove it, the manufacturer was liable to a penalty of £5 a day, which might be increased to a maximum of £200, during the continuance of the nuisance. That appeared an easy remedy; but, unfortunately, the next section gave the defendant power to transfer the case to the Superior Courts, so that the plaintiff, who came forward in the belief that he had a cheap and summary remedy, found himself, in this case also, involved in an expensive action at law. Then the Act itself was not to be applicable except in a city, town, or populous district. He believed that there had not been as yet any legal definition by the Courts of the words "a populous district," so that in many cases the preliminary question would arise whether the Act of Parliament was applicable to that district. There was, therefore, another element of difficulty and doubt. He did not ask their Lordships to legislate on his mere statement. He was prepared to substantiate all that he had said by indisputable evidence, and to prove before a Committee the injury done, and the inadequacy of the law as tested by experienced practitioners in this department. He did not ask their Lordships now to legislate, but to say he had laid before them sufficient grounds for a Parliamentary inquiry. He wished carefully to avoid any legislation which should unduly hamper any of the manufacturing interests of the country, but to ascertain whether legislative measures could be introduced on this subject not only without injury, but with profit to our manufactures. If Parliament could so legislate, it would confer a signal benefit on a large portion of Her Majesty's subjects, who were now suffering grevious injury from the nuisances which he had pointed out.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he was sure that their Lordships would not be inclined to negative a Motion for an inquiry such as that which his noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) wished to see undertaken. In the clear speech of his noble Friend there was a case made for that inquiry. At the same time, he must observe that the notice of his noble Friend had caused some alarm
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  in the minds of persons engaged in what might be described as the staple trades of the country; but he was sure that the noble Earl would not be a party to imposing any unjust restrictions on any branch of our manufactures. His noble Friend wished to inquire into the extent of the evil, in order to find a remedy; and he was convinced that the composition of the Committee would be such as to inspire confidence in the minds of their Lordships and the country as to the manner in which its proceedings would be conducted.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that he would not ask their Lordships to name the Committee until Monday next. In the mean time, he should confer with his noble Friend (Earl Granville) as to its constitution, and, to the utmost extent in his power, give effect to the wishes of such noble Lords as felt an interest in the subject, and might desire to serve on the Committee. He need scarcely observe that the subject of the proposed inquiry had nothing to do with party. His wish was to have the Committee composed of noble Lords who felt an interest in the question.
  LORD RAVENSWORTHsaid, that he would have opposed any Motion which contemplated any undue interference with the manufacturing interests. This, he knew, contemplated no such interference; and he he could state from his own knowledge that the facts stated by his noble Friend were correct. He believed that great good would result from legislation on this question without injuring the manufacturing interests The legislation which had already taken place on this subject, such as that for the consumption of smoke in the metropolis, and purifying the water in different districts, had proved beneficial; and there was no reason why the same good result should not follow from legislation in reference to manufactures such as those the noble Earl described, which were not confined to Lancashire, but were to be found in great numbers about Newcastle and North Shields. He had that day presented a petition from his own neighbourhood, near the metropolis, which might now be called a populous one, complaining of the grievance occasioned by the establishment of a brick-field in so thickly-populated a district. This subject had been a most fertile source of litigation. In one instance he knew of a professional man who had built a new house, and close by him a brick-field was opened, out of which it was expected that no less than a million

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  of bricks would be taken and burnt. Close by was a street of very good houses. Was it reasonable or just that these offensive vapours should be allowed to invade whole streets of dwelling-houses? He understood there was no effectual remedy for this grievance; and he hoped the noble Earl would not object to the addition of the words "and offensive" after the word "noxious" in the Motion. The noble Earl had alluded to the discharge of arsenic Ted refuse into a certain stream—he (Lord Ravensworth) wished to call attention to the cases of arsenical poisonings which had occurred so frequently, not only from the preparation of the dresses of females, but from paper-hangings. A more painful illustration of the necessity of such an inquiry as the present could not well be afforded than the case which appeared in The Times of the 23rd of April, where it appeared that three children died one after another in the same house, their deaths being attributed to diphtheria, and it was not till the fourth child died that it was discovered they had been in the habit of licking the paper of their room, which contained an arsenical preparation. These were most serious circumstances, affecting the health of the community at large. He most heartily concurred in the Motion, and believed that the best effects would result from the inquiry.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that with respect to the proposed addition of the words "and offensive," he was quite in the hands of the House; and there was no objection to their insertion, if their Lordships thought it better. For himself, he should have thought the word "noxious" to be sufficient.
  EARL GRANVILLEthought that perhaps the extension of the reference might give rise to some difficulty.
  Motion agreed to.
  Select Committee appointed:—
  And on Monday next the Lords following were named of the Committee:—

  D. Richmond

  L. Wrottesley

  E. Derby

  L. Stanley of Alderley

  E. Shaftesbury

  L. Monteagle of Brandon

  E. Graham

  E. De La Warr

  L. Belper

  E. Grey

  L. Talbot de Malahide

  L. Wodehouse

  L. Chelmsford

  L. Ravensworth

  L. Egerton

  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Monday next, half-past Eleven o'clock.