Sitting of 14 March 1862

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2o Pier and Harbour Act Amendment.
3o Consolidated Fund (£ 18,000,000); Transfer of Stocks (Ireland); Crown Suits (Isle of Man).

THE IRISH POLICE.—QUESTION.
COLONEL DICKSONsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether the attention of the Government has been drawn to a representation by the County of Limerick Grand Jury to the Judge of Assize at the late Spring Assizes with reference to the employment and organization of the police?
SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, in reply, that a representation had been made to the Judge of Assize by the Grand Jury of the county of Limerick at the late Spring Assizes in reference to the employment and organization of the Irish constabulary. The Grand Jury stated that the police force was assuming too military a character. The character of the force, however, was precisely the same that it was thirty-eight years ago. It had always been under the command of military men, at first under Colonel Kennedy, then under Colonel M'Gregor, and now under Colonel Brownrigg. It was always desirable that a force consisting of 12,500 men should be under the management and control of a person experienced in military matters; in fact, the City of Dublin police itself was under the command of a military man. Then objection was taken to arming the force with the rifle, and it was assumed that, because they were supplied with the same arm as the Line, they were assuming too military an appearance. But the constabulary had always been armed with the same weapon as the infantry, and being armed like the infantry with the rifle, it was necessary they should be instructed in the use of that weapon. Then the Grand Jury went on to say that there was a large reserve of police in Dublin, for the support of which all the counties were taxed. That, however, was not the ease, for the

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Grand Jury ought to know that the counties did not pay any portion of the expenses of the reserve force, or of the recruits under instruction at the depot. The allegations in the representation of the Grand Jury of the county of Limerick did not therefore appear to call for any action on the part of the Irish Government.

UNITED STATES—PAPER CURRENCY 0F THE FEDERAL STATES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. POTTERsaid, he would beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, Whether his attention has been called to the practical increase of Duties on Imparts into the United States consequent upon such Duties being payable only in specie, the premium on such specie being likely to be excessive owing to the gradually increasing depreciation of American Paper Currency?
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, that at present the Government had received no information that Congress had passed any Act declaring that Import Duties should be paid in specie. It might he so, but he was not aware that such was, the fact. Of course the effect in such case would be what the hon. Member had described.

ITALY—RUMOURED EXCESSES IN SOUTHERN ITALY.—QUESTION.
SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, he rose to ask the First Lord of the Treasury regarding certain events which have recently taken place in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. He had been informed that lately the Archbishop of Amalfi having died, his body was lying in state in the cathedral; and that, while the funeral service was being chanted by the clergy, a party of revolutionists rushed into the church with drawn daggers, and repeatedly stabbed the corpse of the prelate. He had also been informed that an expectation existed at Naples, that the tombs of the Royal Family in the church of St. Chiara, were about to be attacked and violated by the revolutionary party, and it was believed that the Piedmontese police were willing to connive at these outrages. He was also informed that her Royal Highness the Countess d'Aquila, sister of the Emperor of Brazil, and who had two children buried in that church, had called for the protection of the Brazilian Legation, and that its protection had been given to preserve the remains
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of those children from the outrage that threatened them. The question he had to ask was, Whether the Government had received information on these subjects; and also whether they had addressed any, and if so, what remonstrance's to the Government of Turin, with regard to the insecurity of persons and property in the South of Italy?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I can only say that Her Majesty's Government have received no information of any sort or kind with regard to the events that the hon. and learned Baronet supposes to have passed, or to be about to pass in Southern Italy. The hon. and learned Gentleman Speaks of the "Kingdom of the Two Sicilies," but that Kingdom has ceased to exist. I must say I; entertain some doubts as to the correctness of the information which he has received in regard to the events which he supposes to have taken place; and should he permit me to do so, I would advise him to receive with considerable caution any statements that may be made to him by persons in Italy with regard to supposed intentions attributed to those who are under the authority of the King of Italy.

THE INDIAN NAVY.—QUESTION.
SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, Certain reductions having been made in the strength of the force of the Indian Navy since last Session of Parliament, what are the intentions of Government as to the future prospects and position of the Officers of that Service?
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, it was impossible to state, in answer to the question of the hon. Gentleman, what were the intentions of the Government in regard to the Indian Navy. Instructions had been sent to the Government of India with reference to the Indian Navy, but they had not been complied with, the Indian Government having taken a different view of the matter. The Home Government would have to answer the letter received from the Indian Government; and if the hon. Gentleman would postpone the Motion he had placed on the paper for the correspondence until that letter was sent, there would be no objection, ultimately, to lay the whole correspondence on the table. That would be the only complete answer that could be given to the question of the hon. Gentleman.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.

THE INDIAN ARMY.—QUESTION.
SIR MOTTO FARQUHARsaid, he rose to ask the Secretary of State for India, In consequence of his having authorized the Government of India to reduce the youngest of the regiments of Cavalry lately formed in Bengal, what would be, in the event of such authority being acted upon, the position of the officers and men? An official statement had been made that the Government of Bengal, finding they had more cavalry regiments than they required, had determined to send home the Queen's Bays. The Home Government, it was stated, thereupon wrote to give the Indian Government authority, instead of sending home an old regiment, to reduce the youngest cavalry regiment which had been formed out of the local European cavalry regiments—namely, the 21st Hussars. He should not have directed the attention of the House to the subject, had not the House constituted itself a Court of Appeal upon questions affecting the late Indian Army. It would be in the recollection of hon. Members that in the Act of 1858, which transferred the Government of India from the East India Company to Her Majesty, it was provided by the 56th section that the pay, pensions, allowances, privileges and promotion in the Indian Army were to be in the same position as when the Indian Army was under the East India Company. Not satisfied even with that provision, the House manifested its determination to see that justice was done to the officers of the Indian Army by accepting a clause proposed by his right hon. Friend (Mr. Henley) in the Act of 1860, which resulted in the amalgamation of the Indian with the Royal Army, which repeated the guarantee given by the Act of 1858. Lord Derby stated at the time, when he was at the head of the Government, that the expectations of the officers of the Indian Army ought to be considered, and the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Charles Wood) assured the House that no material alteration would be made in the position of the officers of the Indian Army, and said, in 1860, he did not know how Government could give a better pledge of the sincerity of their intentions than by accepting gladly and willingly the clause of the right hon. Gentleman the member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley). Before the rebellion there were ten regi-
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ments of Native cavalry. Several of the officers were murdered, but those who escaped did their duty bravely. Upon the suppression of the mutiny it was determined to have Native cavalry regiments no longer, and, after various changes of policy on the part of the Government, there appeared in the Calcutta Gazette of the 22nd of April last a General Order, issued by the Government of India, upon the authority of the Home Government, in which the whole scheme of the amalgamation of the Indian and Royal Armies was clearly laid down. In that order it was declared that no alteration would be made in the position of the officers or men without their consent, and those belonging to the Local European Cavalry and Infantry were invited to volunteer under the general conditions of service of Her Majesty's Army, into three new Regiments of Cavalry and nine new Regiments of Infantry to be added to the Royal Army. The same power which had created a regiment, could, of course, reduce it, and therefore, if there were more regiments in India than were absolutely required, it was competent to the Indian Government to propose that those regiments should not be retained in that country. It could not be supposed that the officers would have volunteered into the new regiments if they could have thought it possible that within ten months of the time when the General Order was issued it would be stated by the Secretary for India in that House, that if the Indian Government did not require a cavalry regiment, they had his authority to reduce it whenever they pleased. Now the question he had to ask was, what would be the position of the officers who had volunteered into the new regiments if these regiments were to be thus reduced? Were they to be restored to the position in which they were before they volunteered, and to be in the local service of the Government in India, or were they to be sent home and put on half-pay?
MR. ADAMSsaid, that the officers of the Indian Army were already in such an uncertain position, that any circumstance at all tending to increase that uncertainty could not fail to exercise a most injurious influence. He could mention cases in which officers had gone out to India, but finding their services were not required, had been obliged to remain in Calcutta doing nothing; and though some few might have obtained appointments, an

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order might, at any moment, send them adrift. He did not mean to say that the army in India ought never to be reduced, but he trusted that the announcement made in the House the other night would not be carried into effect.
COLONEL SYKESsaid, he wished to ask upon what principle the Secretary of State proposed to act in reducing the youngest of the cavalry regiments of Bengal? He contended that the Indian regiments ought to take rank according to the dates at which they had been raised; whereas it was proposed to reduce the very regiments which had fought at Plassy and Buxar. Nothing could have been stronger than the assurances of the right hon. Gentleman that the pay and allowances of the officers of those regiments should remain exactly the same as hitherto, and yet those assurances were about to be violated. It would be found much better policy to retain old than to form new regiments.
MR. VANSITTARTsaid, he regretted the hardship to which the officers of the reduced regiments would be subjected. They could never hope to command a troop in the regiments to which they might be temporarily attached, because such a proceeding would necessarily be very unjust to the officers of those regiments. Consequently, it appeared to him that they would lose one-half of their emoluments.
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, he regretted as much as any one that there should be any uncertainty in the position of the officers. He hoped, however, to be permitted to observe, that the uncertainty arose in a great measure from the consideration which the Government had endeavoured to give to the position of the officers by creating favourable terms of retirement with a view to mitigate the hardship which, he readily admitted, had been incurred by some officers in consequence not of the amalgamation, but of the present reduction of the army in India. It would, however, have been quite as competent for the Court of Directors to have made the reduction as for Her Majesty's Government; and, undoubtedly, they would have done so, as nobody is prepared to maintain that the Native army should not be reduced. That reduction must inevitably entail some amount of hardship on the officers. "With regard to the particular question, he had stated on a former occasion under what cir-
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cumstances it had arisen. Those circumstances were certainly in no degree attributable to the line of conduct pursued by the Home Government. The first demand of the Indian Government was for a much larger number of regiments than the India Office thought sufficient. If therefore that Government had altered its tone so as not only to come down to what the India Office sanctioned, but even below it, that was not the fault of the authorities at home. The first consideration, of course, was, what was the force required for India; for it was manifestly unjust to impose on the revenues of that country the cost of the maintenance of a number of extra regiments beyond the absolute requirements. Then the question was, what could be done with the regiments which, in the opinion of the Government of India, were unnecessary? It was not his opinion or the opinion of the Commander-in-Chief that there were too many regiments; but it was not for him to force the Government of India to maintain regiments of cavalry which they thought unnecessary. The hon. Baronet had asked what would be the position of certain officers to whom he had referred. Those officers had volunteered for general service, but they were at present in the Indian Service. Supposing the Government of India determined not to form the regiment, then their services in a regiment of the Line would not be required, and they would remain, as at present, officers of the Indian army, to be employed in such manner as the Government of India could best provide employment for them. They were therefore neither better nor worse off than their brethren, the officers of the other regiments in the Indian army. He was not aware of the exact feeling of the Indian Government on the subject, but he was inclined to think, from what he had heard, that they had changed their opinion as to the number of regiments requisite in Bengal, and that the regiment would be formed.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

CESSION OF ITALIAN TERRITORY TO FRANCE.—QUESTION.
MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for, Foreign Affairs, Whether the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will

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endeavour to ascertain that there is no intention on the part of the new Italian Ministry of entertaining any question of the Cession of any Territory now belonging to the Italian Kingdom to France, under any pretence or consideration whatever; and to more an Address for Copy of any Communications relating to that subject which may have taken place with the late Italian Government? He thought that events which had recently occurred were calculated to excite distrust on the subject to which he desired to call attention. A distinguished and patriotic Italian minister had lately quitted office, chiefly, it is supposed, through the influence of the French Government, in connection with which it was remarkable that his successor had last autumn made a sort of political visit to the French capital, the object of which at the time was supposed to be sufficiently significant as canvassing for the support of the French Government, and was much commented upon in the foreign papers; and a letter which had been published in the Ami de la Religion on the 8th November last gave some reason for suspicion that a cession of the nature to which his question referred was actually in contemplation. In that letter it was stated that "Sardinia was always neglected by and of little political utility to the House of Savoy, and that, in the possession of France, on the contrary, Cagliari, which was one of the finest natural harbours, would become one of the strongest positions in the Mediterranean." The writer added, that "the idea of uniting themselves to a great nation and the hatred produced among the Catholic inhabitants of the island by the attack of King Victor Emmanuel on the Papacy were fast detaching them from Piedmont." By the retirement of Baron Ricasoli from office one great obstacle to any scheme which might exist for the cession of some part of the Italian territory to France had been removed; for every one knew that the head of the new Ministry at Turin, Signer Ratazzi, was a decided partisan of a more intimate alliance than had yet subsisted between the Italian Government and the Government of the Emperor of the French. Now, Signor Ratazzi, on occasion of a dinner that was given to him at Paris in November, expressed himself to the effect that "Italy would never forget what she owed to the Emperor Napoleon and the French army;" further observing that "in the present era of the reconstitu-
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tion of nationalities the union of the Latin race must not be regarded as a vain idea; and that when the hour came France would see how well Italy understood the debt of gratitude which she owed her." The hon. Gentleman also quoted passages from Le Pays, in which that journal said that a Cabinet under the Presidency of Signor Ratazzi, was the best token of a good understanding between Italy and France. All these passages showed that the French press considered that the advent of M. Ratazzi to power, would confer some tangible advantage upon French interests. It was universally understood that the Island of Sardinia was the portion of the Italian territory of which the French Emperor was particularly anxious to obtain possession, and a statement had appeared in the public prints to the effect that Baron Ricasoli, before his removal from office, had informed the British Government that a certain pressure had been put upon him fur the cession of that island to France He (Mr. Darby Griffith) should be glad to know whether there was any truth in that rumour; and in conclusion he had to more for any communications which might have taken place between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Italy upon that subject?
Amendment proposed,
"To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, a Copy of any Communications relating to the Cession of any Territory belonging to the Italian Kingdom to France, which may have taken place with the late Italian Government,"
—instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
MR. LAYARDsaid, it was a very important question. The hon. Member had a perfect right to bring it before the House, and he was obliged to him for the courteous way in which he had done so. He trusted that the House would feel grateful to the hon. Member for the vigilance which he exercised in all matters connected with our foreign relations; but he hoped the hon. Gentleman would not think it necessary that he should follow him in the somewhat discursive speech in which he had taken the House from the Alps to the furthest end of Sicily. The question was very fully discussed last year, and after the ample statement then made by so high an

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authority as the noble Earl at the head of the Foreign Office, he thought it scarcely necessary, not to say becoming, for him to dwell upon the subject at length. Earl Russell stated, on that occasion, that he had received a most distinct assurance from Baron Ricasoli that not an inch of Italian ground would be ceded to France. The noble Earl also stated his belief that it was not the intention of the Emperor of the French to ask for the cession of the Island of Sardinia. He would fain hope that the opinion then expressed by Earl Russell was well founded. Her Majesty's Government accepted the assurance of Baron Ricasoli, not as a mere personal assurance from him, but as an assurance which he was authorized to make by the King of Italy and by his Government; and he should regard it as an affront to the King of Italy and to the great Italian nation if, for one moment, the loyalty of that assurance were doubted. He thought it would not be becoming for the House to imply any doubt as to the sincerity of that assurance by asking that it should be renewed. Her Majesty's Government had accepted it as coming from the King of Italy, and they had full reliance upon the good faith and loyalty of that Sovereign. It was hardly necessary that he should say more upon this subject. Nor would he enter into an argument with the hon. Member opposite with respect to the conduct of Count Cavour. The hon. Member had correctly represented what he stated last year. He trusted that what had happened would never occur again. He regretted to say that the Government were unable to give the hon. Member the papers for which he had moved. He trusted the hon. Gentleman would not press his Motion, because it would not be convenient for the public service that the papers, such as they were, should be laid on the table.
MR. DARBY GRIFFITHbegged to be informed whether the fact was that there were no papers on the subject, or that the hon. Gentleman declined to produce them?
MR. LAYARD said, if there were no papers, he could not of course decline to produce them.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question again proposed.

REFORMS IN TURKEY.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. FEEELANDin rising to call attention to the Papers presented in 1861,
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  relating to Reforms in Turkey and to the mission of Lord Hobart and Mr. Foster to Constantinople, and to move an Address for copies of their Report on the Finances of Turkey, and of any correspondence that may have taken place between the Governments of France and England, relative to their mission, said: I very much regret, Sir, that my hon. Friend, the Member for Manchester (Mr. Bazley), who had intended to second and speak upon this Motion, has been obliged to go into the North, and that I shall lose the benefit of his valuable assistance. I must ask therefore, for the kind indulgence of the House while I call attention to the matters to which my Motion refers, and to the important English interests, commercial and political, which are involved in this exceedingly grave Turkish Question. I will not weary the House by any attempt to plunge into the mysteries of Turkish Finance, or by laying before it any details or supposed details of Turkish Revenue and Expenditure; we have quite enough to do with the details of Finance at home, and it is our first duty to press upon the Government of this country the necessity, if possible, of reducing our own enormous expenditure especially at a period when a large portion of our population is suffering from extreme distress—distress unavoidable but most nobly borne; and here let me say in passing to those suffering masses, that there is one thing which makes nations great in history, and in the long run populations happy, and that is the triumph of great principles over the lower motives of immediate personal or national gain. What I wish on the present occasion, is to call attention to the position of English interests in connection with the Turkish question; and to ask respectfully for that information of which the Government are in possession, which Gentlemen discharging important functions in this country have been sent to Constantinople to obtain, information which the people of this country, largely interested politically and commercially in everything which relates to Turkey, are I think not less entitled than any Member of Her Majesty's Government to possess. I wish also in very few words to advert to some of the leading reforms in Turkey, of which Lord Russell in able despatches has advised the adoption, and to ask whether substantial progress has been made in giving effect to any of them. At the present moment it

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  is most desirable that we should have an expression of public opinion upon this subject. The Turkish Government, it is said, wants a fresh loan, and the capitalists of this country will be asked to provide one. Lord Russell in the papers presented to Parliament on reforms in Turkey says, and says truly, that public credit must follow and cannot precede reform. Lord Stratford tells us that public opinion, save in extreme cases, has no legitimate action in Turkey, and that the motive power must come from abroad. If, then, a loan is wanted, if reform must precede it, and if the action of public opinion cannot be brought to bear in Constantinople, an expression of public opinion here may have an effect in accelerating the march of reform in Turkey such as no other step that could be taken would have, Through banks, through loans, through imports and exports this country has an extensive commercial interest in the progress and well-being of the Turkish Empire, We have, also, an immense political interest in everything affecting its stability. Our trade with Turkey is a trade of great extent and importance. Our exports to Turkey, not including, of course, those to Moldavia and Wallachia, to Syria, or to Egypt, in 1861, fell but little short in value of our exports to the whole of the northern and southern ports of Russia combined. In 1860 they largely exceeded them. In manufactured cottons our export trade with Russia is very small, but it is very considerable with Turkey. In the supply of cotton stuffs to Turkey we have distanced our old competitors, Austria and Switzerland; and the trade admits, I believe, of great extension. In cotton yarn the value of our exports to Turkey was in 1861 nearly double, and in 1860 more than treble the value of our exports to Russia. Our general exports to Turkey exceed in value and in some years largely our exports to Prussia, and very largely our exports to Austria. They exceed in value, and in some years largely, our exports to Spain. Taking the last three years together, they have exceeded in value our exports to China by a sum of between two and three millions sterling. The total value of our exports to Turkey in 1861 was £ 2,988,443; in 1860 they amounted to £ 4,408,910—nearly four millions and a half. No doubt a large portion of these exports, though carried in ships that clear out for Constantinople, passes on to the Black Sea, and much of it passes in transit
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  by way of Trebizond to Persia. But it is Turkey, which holds in Constantinople the keys of this extensive commerce. And here, Sir, let me implore Her Majesty's Government, for it is of immense importance to English commerce, to use their utmost efforts to procure the construction by the Turkish Government of a good road, with substantial bridges, from Trebizond by way of Erzeroum to Persia. A vast transit trade passes along this route, and Russia, I am informed, is making great efforts to divert it to the route by Baku and Poti which would be under her own control. The political and commercial consequences of such a diversion would be most serious, and I hope that the earnest attention of the Government will be directed to this transit trade. The whole of our extensive export trade with Turkey is materially affected by the financial and other derangements in that country. Our exports in 1861 were much less than in either of the two preceding years, and the trade returns for the first month of the present year show a still more serious diminution. A sound financial system lies at the root of all commercial operations and confidence, especially in a country governed as Turkey is by a despotism. Where the finances are in disorder, no man knows, from day to day, upon what branch of commerce or of productive industry the burden of State necessities, in the shape of oppressive or unwise taxation, may chance to fall. Our imports from Turkey are also of considerable magnitude. In 1861 the total value of them was £ 3,178,109. The chief items are madder, maize, and goat's wool or hair. I wish I could have added to these three the article of cotton. A Committee formed for promoting improvements in Syria, on which I sat last year, in conjunction with my hon. Friend the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs and others not Members of this House, made great efforts, and instituted inquiries, in order, if possible, to introduce the culture of cotton into Syria. I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to tell us that the Government have done something in order to induce the Turkish Government to improve their roads, for on this, after all, the culture of cotton must to a great extent depend. The improvement of the roads in Turkey was promised, if I remember rightly, in the Haiti Humayoun of 1856. I want to know if that promise has been redeemed.
  But, Sir, not only have we great com-

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  mercial interests involved in the Turkish Empire, we have a great political interest in its stability as affecting the balance of power in Europe; as affecting our interests in the Mediterranean, and perhaps ultimately more than one of our routes to India—I mean the routes by the Euphrates and by Egypt. Lord Chatham, we are told, said that he did not take the trouble to discuss the question of the East with any one who did not see that the independence of the Ottoman Empire was a question of life and death for Great Britain. But, Sir, there lies also in the background of this grave Eastern question a great danger. Lord Statford de Redcliffe has referred to it in the able memorandum written, he says, as a last act of duty on leaving Constantinople. If Turkey is to continue weak, there lies, says Lord Stratford, in its continued weakness, the danger of a grand European struggle for its partition. To the protection of Turkey from such a source of danger, to the maintenance of its independence, prompt reforms and above all things the restoration of a sound financial condition are indispensable. Lord Russell seems to feel this strongly. In January of last year he directed our ambassador to call the serious attention of the Porte to the disordered state of its finances. In the following April he sent Lord Hobart and Mr. Foster to Constantinople to examine into, advise, and report upon them. Those gentlemen went to Constantinople. I believe that they were well received. They must have had great difficulties to encounter in dealing with Turkish accounts, but I believe that they surmounted them. After remaining in Constantinople six months they returned to England, and made a report, which, if produced, would, I have no doubt, prove to be a very full and valuable one on the finances of Turkey. This is one of the papers for which I ask on behalf of the public. As a loan is to be applied for, I think that the public are entitled to see it. Lord Russell in his instructions to Lord Hobart and Mr. Foster pointed out as an object of the utmost importance "publicity of the accounts of revenue and expenditure." Is publicity to be claimed at Constantinople and withheld in England? I believe that the action of public opinion in England which would follow publicity is the next best thing to the action of public opinion in Turkey, which at present we cannot hope to obtain. The Morning Post, which is supposed to enjoy
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  the confidence of a distinguished portion of the Government, gave in November last what purported to be an account of this report. It anticipated the figures. It expressed its belief that the report of Lord Hobart and Mr. Foster would be found to be the most satisfactory and reassuring statement that had ever been presented touching the finances of the Turkish Empire. I know nothing of the report, and have no means of knowing its contents. I believe that, if published, it would show that there are considerable disorders in the finances of Turkey, but that the disorders which prevailed were within the reach of remedies if the Turkish Government would but set about the work of reform in a decided, prompt, and vigorous manner. Everything depends on that.
  As to the general reforms mentioned in the papers which have been laid before us, I shall only refer in few words to some of those most wanted, in order to ask my hon. Friend whether any substantial progress has been made in effecting them. Sir Henry Bulwer, writing in February, 1861, mentions three as most important. 1. The reorganization of the general system of police; 2. Reforms in the mode of levying the tithes; 3. The Reforms relating to the admission of Christian evidence in the tribunals. Now, I wish to ask my hon. Friend: Has the police been reformed? Are the tithes levied fairly, or is the produce left to rot on the ground until it pleases the assessor to come and extort, instead of a tenth, perhaps a fifth of its value? I wish also to ask: Is Christian evidence really admitted on equal terms before the tribunals? That is a very delicate and difficult question, and I shall be glad to know that some real progress has been made in relation to it. With regard to Financial Reforms adverted to, a telegram has been received this morning from Constantinople; but it only gives results, not details. Perhaps the Government can inform the House whether anything has been done to carry out those recommended by Lord Russell in his despatch of April in last year? Well then, Sir, I am anxious to know in what position we stand in this matter of the financial mission as regards our great ally the Emperor of the French. Was it proposed to him to unite with us in this financial mission? Was there any correspondence on the subject between the two Governments; and, if so, can it be

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  produced? I do not ask this question, and it is one which I will not press, as matter of mere idle curiosity; but I feel most anxious upon this point, because, having for many years devoted much attention to this extremely interesting and, as I believe, important subject, I am convinced that the frank and cordial co-operation of the French and English Governments in connection with the Eastern Question is of the utmost importance both to the well-being of Turkey, and to the maintenance of European peace. I have referred, Sir, to the policy of Lord Chatham on the Eastern Question. That policy has been adopted by great ministers in England, though connected with different political parties. The policy of France has, I rejoice to think, been in the main identical with our own. It was referred to by M. Guizot some twenty-three years since as the policy of Henri IV., the policy of Richelieu, the policy of Louis XIV., the policy of the first Napoleon. It was defined to be, to maintain the balance of power in Europe, and, as a means of maintaining it, to maintain the Ottoman Empire according to the circumstances of the time and within the limits of the possible. I hope, Sir, that these last words do not now involve the risk of any possible divergence in the policy of France and England with reference to the Eastern Question. Since they were uttered. France and England have acted in concert in the Crimean war, at the Treaty of Paris, and in Syria. Our Ambassador has informed us that at Constantinople M. Thouvenel always acted in the most friendly manner. I believe, Sir, that France will loyally continue so to act that she will not undo at Alexandria or in Syria that which she does at Constantinople. I do most earnestly hope that all the Great Power, but the Governments of France and England in particular, in their relations with that interesting country and with those interesting populations to which my Motion refers, will look, not to the objects which sometimes prevailed formerly of gaining partisans in this sect or in that sect, among the Druses or the Maronites, the Protestants or the Catholics, the Greeks or the Armenians, but rather to the interests of the native races without distinction of race or creed, as well as to those great interests of humanity and civilization which, to a large extent, are mixed up with this important question. I trust that, in the interest of the native
  1518
  races, they will urge conjointly on the Government of the Porte, the adoption of large administrative and sound financial reforms—such reforms as I believe that the report of Lord Hobart and Mr. Foster have pointed out. On the prompt adoption of such reforms, not only the well-being of Turkey, but her national existence may depend. But, Sir, I trust that England and France, while acting in concert for the good of Turkey, will tell our friends the Turks frankly and plainly that, whether for financial reforms or independence, their opportunity has come—that in the history of nations as well as of individuals opportunities once lost seldom recur. They have upon the throne a young, sagacious, and energetic Sovereign. They have at the head of their Divan an able and enlightened Minister. The presence of Riza Pasha in the capital, and of Mehemet Ali Pasha in the Ministry, are, it is true, serious obstacles to the return of local or European confidence; but I trust that the firm will and clear-sightedness of the Sultan will speedily remove those obstacles. What Turkey wants is not continual interventions, not mediation, not a succession of financial missions, not wars waged by foreign nations to sustain her at a fearful sacrifice of life and treasure. She wants that strength which lies within her reach—that strength which springs from Hatti Sherifs and Hatti Humayouns not resting as idle promises on paper but enforced in practice—that strength which springs from wise laws well administered—that strength which enables Governments to throw themselves on the attachment of a well governed people, and to repel not only foreign invasions, but even interventions, if necessary, by force of arms. Believing that to the maintenance of the independence of Turkey the adoption of a sound system of finance is indispensable,—believing that the publication in this country of the report of Lord Hobart and Mr. Foster will accelerate the adoption of such a system, I beg, Sir, to place in your hands the Motion which stands on the Notice Paper in my name.
  Amendment proposed,
  "To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, a Copy of the Report of Lord Hobart and Mr. Foster on the Finances of Turkey, and of any Correspondence that may have taken place between the

  1519
  Governments of France and England relative to their Mission to Constantinople,'"
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. LAYARDsaid, he rejoiced to find that there was an hon. Member of that House who took so much interest in the well-being of the Turkish Empire as his hon. Friend; and certainly his hon. Friend was, perhaps, as well entitled as any hon. Member to be heard on a subject to which he had given much attention. He entirely agreed with him that the interests of the Turkish Empire were intimately connected with those of this country. The maintenance of Turkey as a powerful, prosperous, and independent empire was a wise policy—a policy which had ever been advocated by the noble Lord now at the head of Her Majesty's Government, and which ought always to be advocated by any future Government of England. He equally concurred in the view taken by his hon. Friend as to the necessity for a cordial understanding on that matter with France. If this country and France understood one another, little fear need be entertained with regard to the independence of the Turkish Empire. His hon. Friend had dwelt on the state of Turkish finance. No doubt the independence and prosperity of an empire mainly depended upon the condition of its finances, and not long ago the state of Turkish finance was by no means encouraging. During the reign of the late Sultan the confusion seemed to increase almost daily. The civil list was exceeded by a very large amount; there was an entire want of control over the different officers of State, misgovernment in the provinces, foreign war, internal insurrection; and, to embarrass the Government still more, the salaries of all the public servants were in arrear, and the pay of the troops, generally speaking, from one year to two years behindhand. Attempts were made to remedy these evils, but without much success. Budgets were published, but they did little to satisfy the public, and much reliance could not be placed upon them. The consequence was that the exchange upon this country fell to an unprecedented extent, and the credit of the Turkish Empire, which ought to stand as high as that of any other country in the world, was almost destroyed
  1520
  in Europe. The late Sultan died, and was succeeded by the present Sultan Abdul Aziz. Although, according to established custom in Turkey, he had been excluded, while heir to the throne, from all connection with the outer world, some reports favourable to the character of Abdul Aziz had passed beyond the narrow precincts to which he was confined; and certainly those reports had not proved to be unfounded. The new Sovereign had shown great vigour of mind, great energy of character, great ability, and, what was even more than all these, an ardent love of his country, and an earnest desire to raise it to that prosperity which it deserved to attain. On ascending the throne he immediately set about making changes which he thought essential to the welfare of Turkey. Not only did he insist on these reforms being carried out by others, but he set the example himself. He at once reduced the civil list very considerably. Finding the salaries of the public servants in arrear, out of the savings of only a few months he himself sent a sum of money amounting to about £ 100,000 to pay up those arrears. Every department of the public service had been under his immediate supervision. It was of course difficult for a Prince who ascended the throne without that experience of government or knowledge of men which heirs to the Crown in the rest of Europe generally acquired, to initiate great reforms himself, or to carry them through successfully at once. But the present Sultan had shown so anxious a desire to introduce and to carry out reforms, that no doubt he would ultimately succeed—indeed, he had already succeeded to a degree far beyond what might have been expected. The difficulties with which he was surrounded were entirely inherited. The condition of Turkish finance during the reign of his predecessor had been such as to cause great anxiety to Her Majesty's Government. Earl Russell, who had always felt a deep interest in Turkey, had been desirous that something should be done to put her finances in order; and it was suggested that some gentlemen from this country, acquainted with our system of financial administration, should be sent out to Constantinople to inquire into the state of the Turkish finances and give their advice and assistance to the Turkish Government. Two gentlemen were selected for this purpose—one of them Mr. Forster, of the Pay Office, the other Lord Hobart,

  1521
  of the Board of Trade—both having great experience and being well-known in their respective departments. They went to Constantinople, and were received very cordially by the Turkish Government, who evinced great confidence in them, placed at their disposal all the information they possessed, and gave them permission to inspect the public accounts. Moreover, the Commissioners obtained most valuable aid from Her Majesty's Ambassador, who had devoted great attention to Turkish finance, and derived great assistance from our Consuls and Vice Consuls in Turkey, men of great intelligence and attainments, who furnished reports upon the condition of the various provinces with which they were connected. Upon the information thus procured those two gentlemen prepared a report, which they submitted to the Sultan and the Turkish Government. Whatever his hon. Friend had heard of that report, it certainly deserved all the praise that had been bestowed upon it. It was a most able, and, what was of more importance, a very practical document. It suggested no wild schemes; it did not recommend to the Porte any of those extravagant measures the adoption of which had been over and over again pressed upon it; for no sick man had ever had a greater variety of prescriptions urged upon him by the physicians assembled round his couch than had the unfortunate Turkish Empire. The reforms and measures suggested were eminently practical, and could be at once adopted by the Turkish Government; but, perhaps, the most gratifying feature of the report was, that it showed there was nothing fundamentally rotten or bad in the state of Turkish finance, that the difficulties into which it had fallen arose entirely from mismanagement and want of experience, and that with a very little sound management and good will those difficulties could be got over and a balance restored between revenue and expenditure. The report, as he had stated, was prepared to be submitted to the Sultan and the Turkish Government. Those gentlemen were not sent out directly for the service of this country, but for that of the Turkish Government. It was the desire of Her Majesty's Government that their knowledge and experience should be placed at the command of the Turkish Government. On that understanding the Turkish Government had treated them with great con-
  1522
  fidence, and had placed all the information they possessed at their disposal. His hon. Friend would therefore see that it would be a breach of the confidence reposed in the Commissioners, and consequently in Her Majesty's Government also, to publish the report, unless the consent of the Turkish Government were previously obtained. The report had not been prepared for idle purposes. Its object was to show the Turkish Government how they could remedy the present state of things, and regulate their finance so as to restore an equilibrium between revenue and expenditure. It was very possible that the publication of the report at the present moment would frustrate the object in view. Therefore, if hon. Members wished to serve Turkey, that object would be better accomplished by withholding the report until the recommendations therein contained should have been carried out. Her Majesty's Government had no objection to the production of the document other than this, that it might defeat the object which they wished to see accomplished. When that object should have been attained, and the consent of the Turkish Government obtained, they would immediately produce it. His hon. Friend had asked what reforms had been effected in Turkey. His reply was, that very considerable reforms had been already carried out, while others were in progress. In the first place, the present Sultan on coming to the throne endeavoured to find out the most capable, and, what was still more important, the most honest men to whom he could confide the administration of public affairs. The first person he selected was Achmet Vefyk Effendi—whose name was already well known to those who took any interest in Turkey, a statesman of European reputation, he might say even of genius, of vast information, and of most scrupulous honesty—and placed him at the head of a very important department—the administration of the "Vakoufs" or property given in trust to mosques and religious bodies for charitable purposes, or to be held in trust for individuals. The "Vakoufs" formed a very large branch of public revenue. He believed that already the administration of that department by Achmet Vefyk Effendi had resulted in a considerable gain to the revenue. A commission of finance was also named, and at the head of it was placed Fuad Pasha, the present Prime Minister, a statesman well-known both in this country and

  1523
  elsewhere for his great ability. His hon. Friend had alluded to the telegram which had announced that a budget had been published at Constantinople. He had not seen the details; but if what was stated in the telegram was true, it disclosed a very gratifying fact—namely, that the revenue of Turkey was £ 800,000 in excess of the expenditure. It was important to remember, that although Turkey had been in financial difficulties, her floating debt was very small. She had only £ 14,000,000 of foreign debt; and the whole interest on her foreign and domestic debts together amounted to only one-eighth of her revenue. Again, her taxation was exceedingly light—he believed only one-sixth of that of this country, but hitherto it had been very unequally distributed. The system of farming what might be termed the tithes referred to by his hon. Friend was a very old and objectionable one and much needed reform. The "Verghi," a kind of property tax assessed on towns and villages, had not been changed for a long period of time. The consequence was, that sums levied on villages many years ago, when those villages were prosperous, were still raised, though the places were, comparatively speaking, deserted; and, vice versa, small sums imposed on a country that was thinly populated at the time the tax was assessed, were still collected, although the district had now become thickly inhabited. However, he believed it was the intention of the Sultan and his Government to revise the "Verghi," and to do away with the farming system. Many of the financial difficulties of Turkey had arisen from the detestable system of farming the revenue. The present Sultan had determined to abolish that system, and had already done so to some extent. The consequence would be that the revenue would flow direct to the Turkish treasury, instead of being absorbed by nefarious agents through whose hands it had to pass. Another very important measure was the Treaty of Commerce just concluded with this country and other countries. Before that treaty was entered into, exports from Turkey were subject to a duty of 12 per cent. That had been at once reduced to 8 per cent. and was to be further reduced 1 per cent each year till it came down to 1 per cent. The imports were charged with a general duty of 8 per cent. He might say that no country had shown a
  1524
  more liberal commercial spirit than Turkey, and he believed she would derive no small advantage from that liberality. The trade of Turkey was capable of great extension. No empire was richer in its resources; a vast extent of territory of every diversity of soil and climate, from Moldavia and Wallachia to the mouth of the Euphrates, yielded products of great variety and value, which would be brought into the market by the operation of the treaty. He believed that the treaty would prove of equal advantage to Turkey and to this country. In order to make up for temporary loss of revenue, the Turkish Government had made monopolies of tobacco and salt; and a duty was to be imposed on them, from which a large revenue would be realized. Another reform undertaken was the abolition of the separate credits of the Ministers. Under that very objectionable system each Minister had power to issue bonds for liabilities contracted in his own department; and as that power might be exercised without any restraint whatever, the Sultan could never possess an accurate knowledge of the state of his finances. That system had been abolished. A Finance Minister had been appointed, who would have the sole control of the finances of the country. His hon. Friend was desirous of knowing whether the system of police had been reformed. He believed that up to the present time no very extensive reform had been effected; but there were great difficulties in the way. He was sorry to say that the police in Constantinople and the principal cities were chiefly required, not for the Turks, but for the Europeans. The state of crime among the Mahomedan inhabitants of Constantinople would contrast favourably with that in any Christian city in Europe. There was a time when a Turk scarcely ever thought of locking his door when he retired to rest. Crime chiefly abounded among the foreign residents—for this reason: the European Powers through their representatives claimed, by virtue of what are termed "capitulations," exclusive jurisdiction over their own subjects, and the Turkish police were not allowed to interfere. The consequence was, that crime was committed by foreigners with impunity. England was the first Power that offered to renounce this claim. To aid the Turks, we had now established at Constantinople a very efficient consular court, under Sir Edmund Hornby, by means of which law was dispensed, and

  1525
  with its assistance the Turks were now better able to enforce good order among the subjects of this country. He trusted that in time an effective system of police would be introduced in Turkey. The admission of Christian evidence in Turkish courts of law was a very important point; and he could not help thinking that in the consideration of such a question this country did not always act fairly towards the Turks. We never made allowance for the immense difficulties which a Government, situated as that of Turkey was, had in introducing such reforms. We knew how many years—he might say centuries—it had taken in this country to introduce the most necessary reforms, more especially those connected with religion; and when we asked the Turks to put the Christian on the same footing as the Mahomedan, we ought to bear in mind that hitherto they had been taught to look on the Christian religion as an antagonistic element. It was not surprising, therefore, that they should be somewhat afraid to place Christians on the same legal footing as themselves. He had no doubt but that the best policy they could pursue would be to give the fullest liberty to their Christian fellow subjects, to concede to them equal rights with the Mahomedans, as they would thereby conciliate large numbers who were now discontented and antagonistic to the Government. The enlightened men now at the head of affairs in Turkey were, he believed, fully aware of this. The policy of religious and legal equality was initiated by that eminent statesman, Redschid Pasha, and Fuad Pasha was the most distinguished pupil in the school of politicians founded by him. Other leading politicians in Turkey were animated by the same spirit, and he believed that the time was not far distant when the Christian population would be put upon the same footing as the Mahomedan. Already, in the question of evidence, the reform had been carried through in the commercial courts. But we must give the Turkish Government time. Unfortunately, Turkey had never as yet had a fair chance. Internal peace and tranquillity were required for the introduction of great and important reforms. He did not wish at the present moment to enter into the reasons why Turkey had not had internal tranquillity. But there were elements which had been constantly at work. Whether these had been intended to prevent the prosperity of Turkey he did not
  1526
  now pretend to say; but he did assert that those elements to which he had alluded had prevented the internal tranquillity of the country. Until time and opportunity had been afforded for the development of great reforms, it would be difficult for Turkey to advance with anything like rapid progress; but such was his confidence in the character of the Sultan, that he believed he would overcome all his difficulties, and that an era of prosperity was in store for Turkey. He had never altered his opinion. What he had stated when he was first returned to that House he now repeated—namely, that he had great hopes in Turkey. He did not, of course, for a moment attempt to justify the misgovernment and oppression which had existed in that country; but there was a fundamental honesty in the Turkish population which was greatly in their favour. The Government had shown equal honesty in their dealings with their foreign creditors. They paid the dividends on their foreign debts to the day. They had never been in arrear—they had never repudiated. It was true that, like other persons in difficulties, they had sometimes endeavoured to put off a large payment to the last moment; but they were strictly honest, and had shown themselves aware of the value of public credit. He thought that the Turkish Government could not do better than endeavour to carry out the able and practical suggestions contained in the valuable report, for which he hoped his hon. Friend would not press until a time when it might be laid on the table with the sanction of those for whose benefit it had been drawn up, and without detriment to their advantage.
  MR. FREELANDsaid, that under the circumstances he had no objection to withdraw his Motion.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

CONSOLIDATION OF THE STATUTES.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  SIR FITZROY KELLYsaid, he rose to call the attention of the House to the question of the Consolidation of the Statutes; and to ask Mr. Attorney General, Whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the Consolidation Bills prepared under the direction of the late Statute Law Commission? The present state of the question, and the little that remained to be done, would be best understood by the House if he gave a

  1527
  short account of the consolidation of the statutes, and what had already been effected. For more than two centuries the subject had occupied the attention of legislators, lawyers, and statesmen; but nothing was effected in the way of legislation until the year 1826, when the late Sir Robert Peel, with the aid of Lord Tenterden, succeeded, although in a limited and imperfect manner, in consolidating the statutes relating to the criminal law. Political events for some time interrupted the course of legislation, but in the year 1833 the first Statute Law Commission—emanating from Lord Brougham, the great law reformer of the day, and who then held the seals—was appointed to consider the state of the statute law, and more especially the criminal law, and to submit to His Majesty a scheme by which that law could be consolidated. Between 1833 and 1852 inclusive no less than seven commissions were directed to some of the most experienced judges and lawyers of the day. Thirteen reports and numerous Bills, schemes and plans, were submitted to the Government from time to time; but inasmuch as all these schemes involved, not only the consolidation of the statutes and the amendment of the statute law, but also the impracticable task of the codification of the entire common law of England, the commissioners failed in their efforts. In 1852, under the auspices of Lord St. Leonards, Mr. Greaves and Mr. Lonsdale were instructed to submit a Bill to Parliament, not only for the consolidation and amendment, but also, to some extent, for the codification of the criminal law. A Bill was prepared; but when it came to be submitted to a Committee of the house of lords, so large and extensive were its objects, and so many and so great the difficulties that beset the first step in the undertaking, that after some seven or eight days had been spent by the Law Lords, no more than three clauses of that Bill, which contained 1,000 provisions, were agreed to; and even with regard to these three clauses, considerable difference of opinion existed. Every scheme having failed, in 1854 Lord Cranworth, who then held the seals—and whom he could not name in connection with the subject without paying him the tribute of saying, that if the statute law of this country should ever be consolidated, more praise must be ascribed to that noble and learned Lord than to any other individual in the community—brought
  1528
  into existence the Statute Law Commission. In 1856 the first real and effective steps were taken towards consolidation on a plan submitted to the Commission. It was found that the whole of the 40 volumes of statutes at large—each volume containing, on an average, not less than 1,000 closely-printed pages, and comprising altogether between 40,000 and 50,000 statutes—might, by a proper system of consolidation, be reduced to somewhere about four volumes, and that the 40,000 or 50,000 statutes might be reduced to some 200 or 300 in number, each statute being confined to a single subject, and embracing within itself all that pertained to that subject. In order to satisfy the Government of the day and the public that the task might be accomplished, the attempt was first made in relation to the criminal statute law. In 1856, with the assistance of Lord Chief Justice Jervis, Lord Wensleydale, and Mr. Greaves, the whole of the criminal law of England was consolidated and comprised within seven Bills which it was proposed to submit to Parliament. These Bills afforded a fair specimen of what could be effected in the way of consolidation. They were, however, too late to be laid before Parliament that Session. In 1857 they were brought into the House of Lords by Lord Cranworth. They underwent the consideration, and he thought he might say the severe criticism, of a Select Committee of the House of Lords. These Bills passed the House of Lords with some Amendments, and came down to the House of Commons in the course of that Session. Political questions, however, of greater moment, which had been so often fatal to the consolidation of the law, effectually prevented any further steps being taken at that time. Parliament was dissolved in the course of that Session, and when it re-assembled there were too many other matters demanding attention to permit of any further progress being made that year towards consolidation. In 1858 the Bills were again submitted to the House of Lords. In that year there was a change of Government, and it was found impossible to pass the Bills, even through their first effective stage in that House. A great deal however was done in 1858. The Statute Law Commission, satisfied with the success of the attempt to consolidate the criminal statute law, proceeded with the assistance of competent professors of

  1529
  the law, to frame several other Bills, which they were prepared to submit to Parliament. Another event occurred in 1858 of the greatest importance in connection with the subject. The attention of his right hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Whiteside) having been directed to the subject, he was induced to undertake the assimilation of the criminal statute law of England and Ireland. He took counsel with the then Lord Chancellor of Ireland (Mr. Napier); and although it was found impossible to make any progress in 1858, yet at an early period of 1859 his right hon. and learned Friend, and those who assisted him, were prepared with a series of Amendments to the Bills, which had been almost perfected in England, by which the ciriminal statute law of the two countries was united and assimilated, and in effect, therefore, made to form a complete consolidation. In 1859 a dissolution of Parliament took place, and when Parliament reassembled it was impossible to do more than lay the measure on the table of the House. During 1860 these Bills were considered and revised, and in some respects amended by the present Government; and here, again, he could not but offer his humble tribute of praise to the noble Lord who now held the Great Seal, who, from the moment the question of consolidation was submitted to him, had done all that one man could do to aid in that great work. Those Bills, having passed through the house of lords, afterwards passed through the Lower House, and the statute law of England and Ireland thus united and assimilated became a portion of the consolidated statute law of the realm. What had been been done with the criminal statute law of England and Ireland might likewise be done with the other statutes of both countries. While all our criminal law had been thus consolidated in seven statutes, each upon one single branch of that law, but each embracing all the statutory provisions in respect of that one branch, we had nevertheless the law thus consolidated still dispersed through the statute-book in no less than 106 different Acts of Parliament. But how slight was the effect produced, and how almost useless were the efforts bestowed upon the matter, would be understood when he informed the House, that if any gentleman were to-morrow, upon becoming a Member of Parliament, a Barrister, or a Magistrate, to purchase the Statutes at large, he would probably have to pay a sum of 40 guineas
  1530
  for about 42 volumes, containing, among the rest, the 106 statutes which had been repealed. It was obvious, before any consolidation of the law could be really effected, that some analysis of the whole of the statute law should take place—that some complete and accurate index should be framed, pointing out what statutes, and parts of statutes, were still in force and what had been repealed. Accordingly, two gentlemen, Mr. Wood and Mr. Riley, with some assistance, were instructed to prepare an expurgatorial index of the statutes, beginning with the year 1858 and going backward, taking the Acts of Parliament as they had been passed Session by Session, and arranging their provisions so as to show at one view what statutes were in force, what were repealed, what had expired, or become obsolete. It might interest the House to know that that work had been carried back to the year 1800, the time of the Union between England and Ireland, and that the statutes passed between 1800 and 1858 occupied 23 out of 12 volumes, and that (with the exception of local Acts) they were to be found in extenso in 6,887 Acts of Parliament. Therefore any one washing to possess a moderate law library would have to pay a large price and to encumber himself with a load of nearly 7,000 statutes. He would now state what number of them were in force. Out of 6,887 statutes 3,371 were still wholly or in part, but many of them only in part, operative, and 3,516, or more than half to be found in extenso in every edition of the statutes at large, were absolutely waste paper. If those statutes were still further expurgated, and if the work recommended by the Statute Law Commission were proceeded with in a proper manner, it was manifest that those twenty-three volumes might be reduced to three; and those three, smaller in bulk than any of the twenty-three which now existed, would comprise the whole of the operative statute law of the kingdom, from the year 1800 to the present time. Although the Government had not proceeded with the Bills prepared by the Statute Law Commission, they had availed themselves largely of the expurgatorial index upon which Mr. Wood was engaged. In the last Session they had not only passed the Criminal Consolidation Acts, but they had passed one single Act, which by a clause of four or five lines repealed no less than 1,000 old Acts

  1531
  of Parliament passed at various times, and many of which, though not before repealed, had become entirely obsolete. But the statute-book still remained the same, still consisted of forty-two volumes, still contained those Acts in extenso; and it became necessary for persons who wished to know the state of the law to find their way through forty-two volumes, and by the aid of the Repealing Act to see what laws were repealed and what were still in force. Now, if he were to stop there and put it to his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General whether it was fit that the Government, having done so much, should hold their hands and do no more, the House would expect some insuperable difficulties to be suggested to justify the delay which had occurred in proceeding with this work. But he must remind his hon. and learned Friend that under the same auspices and sanctioned by the same authority which had justified the submission to Parliament of the seven consolidated statutes, no less than ninety Bills were now in existence requiring only the revision of some competent person to bring them into such a condition that they might be fearlessly laid by any lawyer upon the table of that House. During the time that the Statute Law Commission was in existence, from the beginning of 1856 to the end of 1859, in addition to the Criminal Acts of Parliament, those ninety Bills were framed upon almost all the most important subjects affecting the community. Were there any such formidable obstacles now existing as would prevent those Bills from being proceeded with, and thus having a great and important progress made in the consolidation of the statute law? If those ninety Bills were passed, that circumstance, taken in conjunction with what had been already done in the way of consolidation and repeal, would enable the statute book to be reduced from forty-two volumes to at most seven or eight. He was aware of the difficulty arising out of the question as to what tribunal or authority should be selected for the execution of the task; but if the creation of a Minister of Justice should be thought doubtful or impracticable, a Board, consisting of three or four lawyers of eminence, might be appointed to undertake the revision of those ninety Bills, and then to proceed to the consolidation of the remaining part of the statute law.
  1532
  If expense were suggested as an objection to the adoption of such a system, he might mention that a calculation had been made showing that, were the suggestion of the Commissioners adopted with regard to the framing of Bills, no less than £ 60,000 a year might, in all probability, be saved in printing in relation to Bills and Acts of Parliament. He would, therefore, solicit the attention of Her Majesty's Attorney General to the expediency of giving effect to what had already been done in respect to the expurgatorial index of Mr. Wood and his colleague, and of proceeding with it and carrying it back at least to the time of Elizabeth or Henry VIII. He also wished to entreat the attention of his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General to the ninety Bills already in existence. In conclusion, he would call the attention of the House and the Government to the last Report made to Her Majesty by the Statute Law Commission, in which it was stated—
  "The time in which the whole work may be completed must depend on the number of hands employed; but assuming, as our experience enables us to do, that ten or twelve gentlemen may be constantly employed, we think it fair to anticipate that the whole work may be completed in about three years; and if at the end of that time we are able to present to your Majesty the whole of the Statutes coming under the class of General Laws, filling only about three volumes, but comprising all, or nearly all, the Statutes of a general nature now scattered in about forty volumes, we venture to think that our labours will not have been in vain."
  That Report was signed by Lords Stanley, Lyndhurst, Cranworth, and Wensleydale, Mr. Fitzgerald, now a Judge in Ireland, and various other eminent persons. He would rejoice to hear that Her Majesty's Government were disposed to persevere in the good work in which they had already made such progress.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, it was extremely gratifying to hear from his hon. and learned Friend that the work of consolidation was, in point of fact, all but completed. The largest result, in the opinion of his hon. and learned Friend, the Member for Suffolk, that could possibly be expected was the reduction of the volumes of the statute law to four; and it appeared that owing to the labours already bestowed upon the work the number might be reduced to seven, as no less than ninety Bills were in existence, consolidating all the existing Acts upon as many different subject. It cer-

  1533
  tainly seemed very extraordinary that those ninety Bills, prepared at such a great expense, should have been for so long a time allowed to remain in abeyance. In point of fact, if Her Majesty's Government were only to avail themselves of what was already made to hand, the laws of the land were consolidated. He begged to ask his learned Friend the Attorney General whether he intended so vast a mine of wealth to remain useless to the country? With respect to what had been accomplished during the last Session, he found from his own experience that the work was not quite so beneficial as his hon. and learned Friend opposite seemed to imagine. He referred to the cousolidation of the criminal law which then took place; or, in other words, to the consolidation of what was known as Peel's Acts, and certain Irish Acts, with portions of other Acts. The consolidation of parts of Acts was a most objectionable mode of procedure, because, as was natural to suppose, every one having anything to do with criminal statutes would infinitely prefer having to consult only one Act of Parliament instead of two. He would take, for instance, the 14 & 15 Vict., c. 100—one of Lord Campbell's Acts. Suppose it became necessary to refer to that Act, it would also be necessary to refer to the Criminal Statutes Repeal Act of last Session to ascertain whether any particular section in Lord Campbell's Act had been repealed in whole or in part, or not repealed at all. Lord Campbell's Act contained thirty-two sections, of which nine were wholly repealed, two partly repealed, and the rest left altogether un-repealed. As had already been admitted by the hon. and learned Attorney General, it would be requisite to introduce another Bill upon the subject of criminal law consolidation—namely, a Procedure Bill. His main object, however, was to impress upon his hon. and learned Friend the necessity of utilizing the ninety Bills already in existence. If the whole of them could not at once be passed into law, at least a selection could be made, and even then most valuable results would be attained.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that he need not follow his hon. and learned Friend through the history he had given of statute law consolidation for the last thirty years; but if he were to do so, he should not be at variance with him.
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  He entirely agreed in what had been said as to the importance of the expurgation and abridgment of the statute-book. He was happy to add, that for the purpose of carrying forward and finally accomplishing that most desirable work, persons of skill, and whose ability had been tested—he meant Mr. "Wood and his colleague, Mr. Reilly—had been for some time past busily and zealously, and he had no doubt efficiently, continuing their labours. The Statute Law Commission, as the House were aware, was appointed in 1854. It proceeded with its work during the following years down to 1859. It engaged the assistance of gentlemen of experience in drawing bills, and these gentlemen, of course, required payment for their services. Session after session, a Vote was taken for the Statute Law Commission; but in 1859, the present Government being then in power, Lord Campbell announced in the House of Lords that it was not intended further to continue the commission: and the usual Vote, subsequently brought forward by accident, was opposed and negatived. Of course, the funds failing, the Commission fell to the ground. Mr. Wood and Mr. Reilly, who had been engaged in the preparation of that most admirable register to which allusion had been made by his hon. and learned Friend, were, however, instructed by the Government to proceed, and to take the proper steps for bringing out an expurgated edition of the statutes, containing only the acts in force, and omitting such as were only of a local and personal nature. The register of obsolete Acts had no doubt been found of great value in the preparation of the Repeal Act of last Session (the first of an intended series), which, on that account, had gone upwards from its date, instead of commencing with the earliest portion of the statute-book. But the register went no further back than to the commencement of the present century, and only included Acts of whose repeal there could be no doubt. The Repeal Act referred to occupied the same period as the register, but it proceeded thirty years higher up; and by that single enactment nearly a thousand Acts or parts of Acts had been rescinded, which, though manifestly obsolete, had not till then been formally repealed. There was a class of Acts which could not find its way into the Register, but which must be taken cognizance of for the purposes of the expur-

  1535
  gated edition, inasmuch as they could not be said to be without legal force, although they might have grown somewhat inapplicable and obsolete. These Acts, which required to be repealed by Act of Parliament to make it perfectly clear that they no longer formed part of the statute-book, were—Acts repealed in general terms; Acts virtually repealed, as where an earlier enactment was inconsistent with or rendered nugatory by a later one; superseded Acts, as where a later enactment was to the same effect as an earlier one; and Acts which had become obsolete, either because the state of things contemplated by the enactment had ceased to exist, or because the enactment was of such a nature as to be no longer capable of being enforced. These were the classes of Acts with which the gentlemen whom he had mentioned had to deal, and, as he had said, an Act had been already passed whereby about 1,000 of these spent, repealed, and obsolete statutes were removed from the statute-book. The learned gentlemen who were engaged in that important work were continuing their labours. Another Bill had been laid on the table of the other House of Parliament towards the close of the last Session, carrying the work of expurgation from the earliest period to the end of the reign of Edward III. The Bill was not on that occasion further proceeded with; but it had been again taken up, and would be immediately continued to the end of the reign of Henry VII. A Bill so extended would, he hoped, become law during the present Session The two volumes which contained the statutes of that period consisted of 1,092 pages; of these the forthcoming Bill would repeal 476, leaving 616, of which there would be excluded from the expurgated edition about 347, leaving to be printed only 269. He had received a communication from these two gentlemen stating their belief that an equal or greater reduction might be made in the reign of Henry VIII and subsequent reigns. In that manner an effectual expurgation of the statutes would be accomplished. Thus far he believed he was in perfect accord with his hon. and learned Friend. But his hon. and learned Friend had further asked, whether it was the intention of the Government to proceed with the statutes prepared under the direction of the late Statute Law Commission. He presumed that his hon. and learned Friend was referring to the ninety
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  Bills which were prepared under the direction of the Commission. Now, he found, on reference to the last report of the Commission, dated in February 1859, a statement that the Bills had been prepared before the Commissioners had the advantage of the register which had been prepared. In consequence of that, they reported that some further change might be necessary; but they considered that some of the Bills were in a state in which they might properly be submitted to Parliament. Four of them, if he remembered rightly, had been laid on the table of the House of Lords; but in introducing them Lord Cranworth said, that they were produced merely as specimens, and not for the purpose of being passed through the House. Now he had seen the Bills, and whilst he would be the last man to disparage the labours of the Commission or of the learned gentlemen employed by it, he trusted he should not be misunderstood when he said, that the bulk of the Bills, he might say the Bills generally, were not in a condition to be laid before Parliament. He had no doubt that these bills contained a great mass of matter which would prove very valuable; and besides the construction of the Register, which was a very useful work, he believed none of the labours of the Commission would be unattended with advantage; but it was not the present intention of the Government to proceed with the Bills as they stood. He trusted, however, that they might see the work of expurgating the statute-book speedily accomplished.

THE BIBLE IN SPAIN.—QUESTION.
MR. KINNAIRDsaid, it would be in the recollection of the House that during the last Session the right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary for Ireland on more than one occasion brought under their notice the case of certain people in Spain who had undergone persecution on account of their religious opinions. The right hon. Baronet stated the case with great ability, and he had no doubt that, although he had since accepted office, the right hon. Gentleman still remained true to his principles. But as the right hon. Gentleman could not from his official position put forward his views with the same freedom he had formerly done, he (Mr. Kinnaird) hoped he should be excused if he took up the question. The Spanish persecutions

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commenced in 1859. In that year a naturalized British subject named Escalante was seized, and imprisoned in a loathsome dungeon for merely circulating the Scriptures. He was sentenced to nine years' penal servitude in the galleys; but owing to the intercession of the British Consul he obtained a remission of the sentence. The opinions for which he was persecuted, instead of being cheeked by the severity shown towards him, had, as was usual, only spread the more in Spain, as they had done in Italy, in France, and in other Roman Catholic countries. The Roman Catholic priesthood became alarmed, tracked the readers of the Bible through the agency of police spies, and subjected them to cruel persecution. The names of Matamoros and Alhama were already as familiar to the people of this country as those of the Madiai were ten years ago. Since his right hon. Friend brought the subject before the House, those two unhappy men had been sentenced to seven years at the galleys, while to a third victim (Trigo) had been awarded four years of a similar servitude. An attempt had been made to connect them with certain political disturbances which had occurred in the district; but they had been honourably acquitted of the charge by the tribunal before which they were carried for trial. They had been condemned, therefore, to the galleys, for no other offence than that of professing those religious views which were held by the majority of our countrymen. An appeal had been raised from this iniquitous sentence, and he wished to impress on our Government the duty of an indignant and energetic remonstrance against: its confirmation. Hon. Members could scarcely realize the consequences of the punishment to which those unhappy men had been condemned. To be sent to the galleys was not only to be stripped of every right of citizenship, but to be doomed to the companionship of murderers and felons, to wear a galling chain for years, to be denied letters or visits even from one's nearest relatives. Already Matomoros's strength was breaking down under his captivity. Originally an officer in the army, he had been compelled to throw up his commission on account of the faith which he held, and was subsequently thrown into prison in October, 1860, for the same reason. But these three men did not stand alone. The number of victims to persecution had been constantly
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growing, though he was happy to hear that there were not so many now in prison as there had been. Within a few weeks or months, however, thirty persons had been arrested and imprisoned in Granada, Malaga, and Seville alone. Many others had fled for refuge to Gibraltar and elsewhere. At one time as many as fifty persons in Malaga were left destitute, owing to the seizure of the heads of their families. In one case a sculptor with his wife and eldest son were arrested in the dead of night, and cast into a dungeon, leaving five helpless children totally un-provided for. In another instance the head of one of the best public schools in Seville was apprehended. It was well known that at Granada the vilest criminals received better treatment in prison than the Christians who were convicted of reading the Bible.
It might be said that this was a matter which concerned Spaniards alone, and with which they had no right to interfere. Others thought that interference was unadvisable because it would prove of no avail. He demurred to those opinions. Knowing, as he did, what an impression the debates in that House during the previous year had produced in Spain, he was confident that great good would result from a decided expression of opinion on this occasion, followed by a cordial and energetic remonstrance on the part of the Government. One of the prisoners wrote, with reference to one of the discussions of last Session—
"I have not yet read the speech of Sir Robert Peel, but I have heard it notably praised. An extract from Lord John Russell's reply has been translated, but only by the reactionary and anti-Liberal section of the Spanish press. These periodicals have also published long leading articles commenting on the words of the Minister, which, unfortunately, appear to be favourable to the Ultramontane party."
Of course that was only the distorted intrepretation which that party sought to put on the speech of the noble Lord.
"The speech has been a fertile subject with our foes. I do not know what the spirit of it as a whole may have been, but I venture to believe that it was not that which the enemies of the Gospel and the friends of slavery of conscience would represent it. Be that as it may, the clergy have taken fresh life from it, for something, and that not a little, was expected from England. We, and with us all Spanish Protestants, looked to you, after God, for everything…. Spain has advanced towards religious liberty more rapidly than in many past years. The attitude of England has done much. Our brethren have taken courage. The Liberal press, in its narrow circle, has

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done what it could. Nay, in the Spanish Chambers the other day notice was given of an intended interpellation to the Government respecting us."
That illustrated the moral effect of discussions in the British Parliament. He would not recapitulate all the precedents quoted last Session by his right hon. Friend as to the right of this country to interfere in the matter. He would only remind the House of the words of that eminent authority Vattel on this question—
"When a religion is persecuted, the foreign nations who profess it may intercede for their brethren; but this is all they can lawfully do, unless the persecution be carried to an intolerable excess. Then, indeed, it becomes a case of manifest tyranny, in which all nations are permitted to succour an unhappy people, A regard to their own safety may also authorize them to undertake the defence of the persecuted."
An hon. Friend of his, the Member for Galway (Mr. Gregory), the other evening, made an earnest appeal to the sympathies of the House on behalf of the Southerners who were in armed secession from the United States of America, and who demanded liberty to keep four millions of people in eternal bondage; might not he far more confidently ask their sympathies for those who only exercised the right to profess what they conscientiously believed, and sought not to be treated as felons for holding the faith professed by the majority of the hon. Members of that House? Nor were they without encouragement from the results of intercessions made in behalf of their persecuted brethren in former instances. He had had the honour of bringing before the House the case of the Madiai, and their release speedily followed. Little did he think when he brought their names before the House how soon the Grand Ducal Government which persecuted them would be swept away. The tendency of such persecutions was to alienate the people from their Governments, and they were never forgotten when the day of reckoning came. The House would recollect the benefits which followed the withdrawal of our diplomatic representative from the Neapolitan Court, and the publication of that remarkable pamphlet of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to Poerio and his fellow sufferers. Where was that persecuting Government? It was a great moral lesson that ought not to be lost on such Governments, and it showed the advantage which might be gained in a peaceable way by bringing public opinion to bear upon them. Another fact of great
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importance was that, since his right hon. Friend had brought forward the subject, England did not stand alone in her remonstrances with the Spanish Government. Greatly to the credit of the Emperor of the French, M. Thouvenel had written a very admirable despatch, instructing his Minister at Madrid strongly to urge upon the Spanish Government the evil of these unhappy persecutions; and when he remembered the position of France in relation to the Pope's continued possession of Home, this fact was all the more significant. Prussia, Russia, and Sweden had also remonstrated, and had instructed their Ministers at Madrid to join with Sir John Crampton in endeavouring to persuade Marshal O'Donnell of the impolicy as well as injustice of persisting in these iniquitous sentences. The hon. Member for Launceston (Mr. Haliburton), with that power of sarcasm for which he was so remarkable, referred the other evening to what Juarez might have said to the Spanish General who had command of the expedition to Mexico. It certainly was somewhat remarkable that Spain, who had often repudiated her public engagements, kept notoriously bad faith with us in her treaties in regard to the Slave Trade, and was now disgracing herself by these persecutions, should go to Mexico in order to compel her to pay her debts. He did trust that Marshal O'Donnell, who had had great experience in public life, would see the inexpediency of continuing these persecutions. What was immediately wanted was the pardon of these persons, and that private efforts had been unable to obtain. He therefore asked again for earnest remonstrance on the part of our Government, and he hoped ultimately to see a change in those laws under which those persecutions had taken place. They were a disgrace to a civilised nation, and at the same time they made it impossible to know if any man was honest in his religious profession; for while one man would undergo imprisonment and the galleys, rather than deny his faith, 500 others might think him right without daring to face the danger of avowing their convictions. He begged to ask the noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury, in reference to what took place last Session on the subject of the Persecutions in Spain and the efforts which were understood to be about to be made by Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in order to obtain remission of

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punishment for Matamoros and others, who were undergoing imprisonment and are now under sentence of the galleys, on the charge of maintaining certain religious opinions and practices contrary to the Religion of the State, whether he had any objection to state to the House if any and what steps have been taken in reference to this matter; and whether Her Majesty's Minister at Madrid has been able to obtain any satisfactory assurance that a favourable consideration would be given to his representations on the subject?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I quite admit that my hon. Friend has performed a duty which nobody can complain of in bringing this matter under the consideration and attention of the House, And there can be no doubt the expression of opinion in the British House of Commons must have great weight with those in any country in Europe to whose conduct those observations apply. I am sorry to say, that I cannot, however, make any report to my hon. Friend and the House as to any satisfactory result which has yet followed the attempts or exertions of Her Majesty's Government to obtain the pardon and release of the persons to whom the observations of my hon. Friend apply. The difficulties, as he must be aware, are very great. The Spanish nation is a nation full of valiant, noble, chivalrous feelings and sentiments; but, unfortunately, in Spain the Catholic priesthood exercise a sway greater than that they possess in any other country; and however liberal—I believe I may fairly say so—the Catholic laity in most countries are, history tells us that wherever the Catholic priesthood gain the predominance the utmost amount of intolerance as invariably prevails. And although in countries where they form a minority they are constantly demanding not only toleration but equality, in countries where they are predominant neither equality nor toleration is allowed to exist. Well, Sir, the case in this instance bears upon law. It does not depend entirely upon the will and action of the Government, There are ancient laws of the most intolerant and persecuting kind which have been called into action by the ministers of the Christian religion, and that action has been the condemnation of these unhappy men to punishment which must, in its nature, be revolting to the minds of liberal persons. Efforts have been made to obtain from the Ministers of the Crown of
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Spain the exercise of their advice to the Sovereign to show that mercy which belongs to the Sovereign of every country. Those efforts have not yet been successful. Mixed with the admirable qualities which distinguish the Spanish people, there is one quality not undeserving of respect—namely, a feeling of jealousy of foreign interference in their internal affairs. It is a quality which is connected with one of the highest national virtues; and therefore it is obvious that, in any endeavour to obtain the reversal, mitigation, or cessation of punishment, great delicacy must be shown and great care taken, lest in endeavouring to do good we should, on the contrary, perpetuate evil. I can only assure my hon. Friend that no effort will be omitted by Her Majesty's Government which they think will be really conducive to the attainment of the object which he has in view.
MR. BLAKEsaid, he much regretted that the hon. Member for Perth had concluded with the Motion that the correspondence which had passed between the British and Spanish Governments upon the subject should be laid upon the table, because he anticipated that a difrent impression would then be given from that which was likely to be produced by the speeches of the hon. Member and the noble Lord at the head of the Government. There was no one in that House, perhaps, more competent than himself to speak from experience upon Spanish affairs. He had resided some time in the country. He had been over the whole Peninsula, and he had been there at a period when he could form a fair judgment of the toleration of the Spanish Government towards persons professing themselves Protestants. If he could grant the premisses of the hon. Member for Perth, he should assent to the conclusion. The hon. Member said that the persons to whom he alluded were guilty of nothing more than professing the religion which was professed by a majority of the people of this country. He had no doubt the hon. Member believed he was correct in that assertion; but he was disposed to think that when the correspondence appeared it would be seen that the Spanish Government asserted that these persons had undergone punishment to some extent for political offences, and not because, as alleged, they had happened to change their religious opinions. The occasion ought to be a very strong one to

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justify one Government in interfering in the affairs of another Government. He agreed that there might be cases when it would not only be perfectly justifiable, but the duty of a Government like that of England, to remonstrate with another Power. But how would they feel if the Spanish Government remonstrated against the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, against the disgraceful oath which Catholics were required to take on accepting certain offices, or against the conduct of a Protestant bishop in Ireland towards his Catholic tenantry? They would strongly resent it; and therefore, unless he was persuaded that these persons were undergoing persecution merely for entertaining conscientious convictions upon the subject of religion, he thought they ought not to interfere. In the whole Spanish Peninsula English Protestants were allowed the full and free exercise of their religion in the houses of the British Consuls. He spoke from his personal experience when in Spain some years ago; and as no Government had, during the last few years, made such progress as the Spanish Government, he should be surprised if they had retrograded in religious toleration. He was quite certain that if a Spanish gentleman, such as the hon. Member for Perth described, chose to embrace the Protestant faith, he would be allowed to follow it, unostentatiously, without molestation. A few years ago, there existed in England as great a desire for the conversion of Spain as there did then for that of Ireland, and with the same unsuccessful results. It was said that missionaries were not allowed to enter Spain, and that all sorts of expedients were necessary to introduce the Gospel into the country. One humorous English paper contained an illustration Borne years ago of a hardy mariner wading into the sea up to his middle to seize a bottle, upon opening which he was represented as exclaiming, "Rum, I hope—gin, I think—tracts, by jingo!" He was almost a witness of such a transaction. Some parties saw a number of bottles off the coast of Spain, which, being obtained at a considerable risk, were found to contain a translation into Spanish of The Blind Beggar of Bethnal Green. It was stated that that was the only way to get the Gospel into Spain. The Spaniards repudiated the idea, and as they were exceedingly disgusted, the bottling of Gospel tracts had to be given up. Mr. Borrow, having
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written an interesting work, was laid hold of by the people of Exeter Hall to go out and distribute the Bible in Spain. Mr. Borrow had a great knowledge of Spain, and would have entered upon the enterprise of delivering the Koran just as well as the Bible, as a matter of business. He was in Spain when Mr. Borrow brought out the English Bible translated into Spanish. In England there was the greatest trepidation as to what his fate would be, and the most awful disasters were apprehended. Mr. Borrow went to Spain, and wrote a book entitled The Bible in Spain. He was a most impartial witness. He gave a most interesting account of the Spanish people and of his undertaking. It did not appear that in any one instance he was interrupted in his missionary labours. He was extremely well received. The ecclesiastics and the authorities in Spain afforded him facilities to distribute the Bible as long as he did not do it in an offensive manner, or use it for political purposes. Mr. Borrow continued his efforts to the great satisfaction of his employers, but, instead of becoming converts, the people continued Catholics. The fact, he believed, was that the persons for whom the hon. Member for Perth took up the cudgels were persons who assumed. Protestantism for the purpose of disseminating political opinions obnoxious to the people and Government of Spain. He anticipated that the correspondence would show that the Spanish Government met the remonstrances with that statement, and he had very little doubt that in any future correspondence the same answer would be made. He thought that a Spanish officer was not at all likely to be above the influence of pecuniary advantages; and, although he could not undertake to say it was the positive truth, he knew that these persons were strongly suspected to have been bribed with the money of English zealots, subscribed for the purpose of propagating Protestantism in Spain. He had very little doubt that the refugees of whom the hon. Member had spoken were fugitives from political and not from religious causes. He had been much pleased with the temperate speech of the hon. Member, and, in conclusion, he must express a hope that the correspondence between the Spanish Government and Her Majesty's Government would be produced.
MR. WHALLEYsaid, that notwithstanding what had fallen from the hon.

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Member who had just spoken, no evidence could be more conclusive than that which had been produced to prove that Matamoros and his companions had been persecuted solely and entirely on the grounds stated to the House by the hon. Member for Perth. He had attended a deputation that waited upon Earl Russell, which clearly proved that the persecution was exclusively on account of Protestantism. The noble Earl remarked on that occasion, that at the most memorable period of our history, England had interfered in the most direct manner; and, if he understood him rightly, he appeared to regret very much that he did not see his way to repeat such interference as Oliver Cromwell exercised in the case of the Vaudois in Switzerland. In that case, also, it was alleged that the parties persecuted were rebels. Again, in 1641, the well-authenticated case of the massacre in Ireland by the priests occurred, when 300,000 Protestants were sacrificed; and there also it was stated that the people had made themselves obnoxious to the Roman Catholics. All that was done in all these cases was not casual or exceptional, but was in exact accordance with the rules laid down by the Catholic Church, to which he believed the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Blake) was attached. It was plainly and distinctly declared in a book which he held in his hand, that heretics were not worthy to be buried like others, but rather with the burial of an ass. And again they were to be treated like worms and bugs, and to be destroyed as such vermin customarily were. That doctrine was fully and clearly expounded in a book which, by the grant to the College of Maynooth, Parliament provided for the students. He denied that there was any parity between the case before the House, and that of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, as the hon. Member for Waterford endeavoured to argue. The Roman Catholic religion was one which sought for universal empire. That point was well put by the late Sir Robert Peel. That statesman said it was a matter of perfect indifference to him whether a party professed the doctrine of transubstantiation. That was also his (Mr. Whalley's) view; but (continued Sir Robert Peel) if there were added to that doctrine a scheme of worldly policy of a marked character, which manifested merely a desire to obtain power over men, and to use that power to the disturbance of all social and political obligations, he
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had a right to inquire into its nature and observe its effects on mankind. The Protestants of Spain looked to England, as her historical reputation justified them in doing, for protection in this emergency.
SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he wished to say one word in justice to the statement made by his hon. Friend the Member for Perth. He was much obliged to the hon. Member for the temperate manner in which he had brought forward the subject. He was sure that the reply of his noble Friend at the head of the Government must have convinced him that the Government were doing everything in their power, as they had done last year, to relieve if possible the sufferings of those poor men in Spain. He thought his hon. Friend the Member for Waterford was in error in supposing that those persons had been in any way implicated in political transactions. That had been distinctly denied. He did not wish to raise any question in respect to the policy pursued towards them, but he was in a position to state distinctly that those persons who were imprisoned in Malaga were in no way implicated in the transactions which occurred during the autumn of last year.
MR. HENNESSYsaid, he could not help calling the attention of the Government to the inconvenient position in which the House was placed. A most important question had been raised, and two of Her Majesty's Ministers had spoken, but neither of them had accepted the challenge given them by the hon. Member for Waterford to produce the correspondence which had passed between the two Governments on this question. He joined his hon. Friend in the hope that those papers would be laid on the table. It was only fair that the case of the Spanish Government should be made known.
Main Question put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
House in Committee.
Mr. MASSEYin the Chair.
£ 915,897, Packet Service.
MR. BAXTERsaid, he rose to call attention to the increase of the Vote and to the possibility of gradually reducing it. As a foreign merchant engaged in commercial operations with all parts of the world, no one was more deeply interested that the ocean postal communications should be kept up with regularity and rapidity. He was quite prepared to ad-

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mit that moat of the existing lines of mail packets could not have been originally established, and that some of them could not even now be maintained, without the aid of Government subsidies. But he contended that the system of subsidies had been carried too far, and that the country was paying too much for the conveyance of its mails across the ocean. It was the duty of the Treasury not only steadily to set its face against making any new packet contracts, but to take immediate steps for gradually diminishing the excessive cost of that service to the nation. Of course, the existing contracts could not be interfered with, but must be allowed to run till their natural termination. That the practice of liberally subsidizing had reached extreme limits was clear from a few striking facts. In the financial year 1856–7 the Vote for the packet service amounted to £ 743,000; while in 1859–60, or only three years later, it had risen to £ 977,000, or nearly a million sterling per annum. According to the evidence given by Mr. Frederick Hill, of the General Post Office, before the Committee on the Packet Service, no less a sum than £ 450,000 out of the entire £ 977,000 represented the amount of the dead loss sustained by the revenue on account of this service; while again £ 215,000 of that loss of £ 450,000 was incurred upon the contract with the Royal Mail Company for conveying the mails to and from the West Indies. The last-named contract would be one of the first to expire; and he would therefore suggest that the Government should take advantage of that circumstance to consider whether the West Indian service might not be linked on at Halifax and Nova Scotia with the North Atlantic service. He believed that arrangement was approved by the Post Office. At all events, he hoped that they would soon see an end put to such enormous subsidies as that of £ 238,000 per annum for the "West Indian mails. Turning to the North Atlantic service, the yearly loss incurred by the revenue upon the Cunard line was £ 79,000, every pound of which might be saved to the country without prejudice to the efficiency of the service. It was only fair to say that the Cunard Company had conducted their line with remarkable regularity, rapidity, and efficiency, and that in former times their subsidy was well earned and well deserved. But since then circumstances had greatly changed, and he maintained that
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by the aid of the principle of competition the payment of heavy subsidies might now be rendered wholly unnecessary, and that, too, without sacrificing in any degree the efficiency or punctuality of our postal communication. A Parliamentary return showed that in the year 1860 the mail steamers which crossed the North Atlantic from the United Kingdom made 166 outward and 165 homeward voyages. Prom the very careful and accurate summary of marine statistics supplied by the Steam Shipping Journal, he found that in the year 1861 there were no fewer than fifty large steamers regularly employed in the North Atlantic trade. These vessels belonged to nine independent companies, and last year they made 226 outward and about the same number of homeward voyages; so that, excluding Sundays, it might be said that there was now almost daily communication with. North America. One of those companies—the Liverpool, New York, and Philadelphia—had repeatedly offered to carry the mails for the Government for the postage alone—an arrangement by which the whole of the £ 79,000 now lost by the contract with the Cunard Company would, of course, be saved. The average passages made by the Inman, an unsubsidized line, were under those of the Cunard, or sudsidized line. Instead of adhering to the present system of subsidizing a particular line, he would, therefore, suggest that the Government should advertise that every steamer which was of a certain size and tonnage, and passed a certain examination, should be deemed a mail steamer upon the following conditions—namely, that it should take up the mails on a certain day and land them on a certain day at some particular port in Ireland—Londonderry, Galway, or Kingstown—that the mails should be landed and embarked there, but that the vessel should be' allowed to come on to a port in England or remain where she was, as the owners chose. The circumstance of several of the companies having their termini in the sister country would be of greater advantage to it than the formation of a new company there with a special subsidy. That was the first condition. The second condition was, that the vessels should be paid in proportion to the number of letters they carried, and paid at the lowest rate any company would take by public tender. The third condition was, that all these vessels should come

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under the usual obligations imposed by the Government as to penalties, and their liability to be employed as transports. He was perfectly satisfied that by better arrangements they might in a short time have a daily communication, by efficient steamers, with North America. The payment of the companies in proportion to the number of letters carried would stimulate them to increased exertions. Such a stimulus was much required. Some of the companies had not kept pace with the times; they had not built new vessels as they ought to have done. The subsidized companies had built fewer than the others. The plan he advocated was entirely in accordance with the recommendations of Earl Canning's Committee of 1853 and the Committee of the House that sat in 1859–60. What he wanted was to get quit of an immense loss, and abolish the system of subsidies to the North Atlantic steamers. The plan would get rid of two Votes larger than any other in that Estimate. In reference to communication with the colonies, he did not see why the Government should not ask all the colonies to follow the noble example of Australia, that paid half the expenses of its mail communication with Point de Galle. The charge for the mails to the Cape of Good Hope was £ 32,400, but the Cape Colony got off with a payment of £ 6,000. New Zealand, Newfoundland, New Brunswick, and other colonies paid nothing. One charge that ought to be abolished was that for Government agents on board contract packets. He did not believe these gentlemen were of the slightest use; on the Cunard line they had been discontinued. The matter was of great importance. He had no hostile feeling to any of the companies. His remarks were entirely made with the object of putting an end to the undue growth and extension of the system of subsidies. He wished to save money to the taxpayers of Great Britain, and give a freer development to the maritime interest of the country. He might add that there was an item which he did not understand, and which he hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would explain to the Committee. It was the sum of £ 20,500 set down "Southampton, Vigo, Oporto, Lisbon, Cadiz, and Gibraltar," for the conveyance of mails. To that item a note was attached, "By agreement this service now terminates at Lisbon. Of the £ 20,500 nominally paid for these services, the sum of £ 15,500 is vir-
1550
tually on account of the India, China, Australian, and Mauritius services." That was the item on which Mr. Frederick Hill states a loss of £ 17,500 resulted on the Peninsular service, and the attempt made to set off the loss required explanation.
MR. WHITEsaid, he agreed with the position laid down by the hon. Member for Montrose. He believed when the time arrived for renewing the contracts a great reduction might be made in the present terms. He wished to draw the attention of the Secretary of the Treasury to the great inconvenience caused by the irregularity of the communication with China, caused by failures of the Peninsular and Oriental Company in performing its contract. Great complaints on that score were contained in a letter he had just received from a Gentleman in China who had formerly sat in that House.
MR. PEELsaid, he would admit that the Vote was a heavy burden on the resources of the country, but he wished to point out that the magnitude of the Vote was in part one of appearance only. The Committee should distinguish first of all between the foreign and colonial service, and the sea transit necessary for home service. A few years ago we paid £ 20,000 for the conveyance of the mails between Holyhead and Kingstown. This year the Estimates included £ 85,000 for that service—a payment obviously due not to merely postal requirements, but to considerations of national policy and the necessity of maintaining rapid communication between England and Ireland. This reduced the Vote from £ 915,000 to £ 820,000, and he was the more entitled to make such a deduction because these home mail-packet contracts involved a clear pecuniary loss, as the mails were carried without the imposition of any sea postage in return. Then even this £ 820,000 was not a total charge upon the revenue, because there was a set-off in the amount of sea postage received—namely, £ 470,000, which made the net loss arising from the carriage of those mails from £ 350,000 to £ 400,000. The hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter) had suggested various modes by which the loss on the Estimate might be reduced; for instance, that our colonies should be called to make contributions. He agreed with the suggestion, and the Estimates showed that it had not been neglected. An arrangement had been made with the Australian colonies, which were now required to contribute

1551
one moiety of the total cost of carrying the mails between the two countries. The only contribution made by New Zealand was £ 10,000 towards the postal service between that colony and Australia, for which service this country gave £ 14,000. Of course, New Zealand ought to pay more. The Mauritius, a rich colony, defrayed the entire expense of conveying its mails to and from Suez. The Cape mail service cost a large sum, towards which the colony only paid £ 5,000. That contract, however, would terminate in the course of the year, and the Cape Government had been told that the English Treasury would not recommend a renewal of the contract unless they were prepared, like Australia, to pay a moiety of the cost. Attempts had been made to reduce the charge in other ways. Up to that time the subsidies paid to the packet companies had included a consideration, not only for the conveyance of mails, but for the carriage, at reduced rates, of passengers, and even goods. The Government considered that future contracts should include only the amount paid for mails, and in furtherance of this view, a deduction of £ 15,000 had been agreed to be made at once from the subsidy paid to the Peninsular and Oriental Company. That reduction was on account of Government passengers, whose transport had hitherto been partly paid for out of the imperial funds; whereas either those passengers themselves, or the colonies for whose advantage principally they were sent out, ought to pay the amount. Another means of reducing the charge was by increasing the rates of postage, Thus, an additional charge of £ 18,000 for the additional mail to China had been covered in that way. In other recommendations made by the hon. Gentleman he concurred generally. No doubt, where a trade existed between this and other countries, sufficiently extensive to employ several lines of steamers, a subsidy is not needed to secure the mails being carried with despatch and regularity. But, unfortunately, that principle could have only a limited application. The four great mail services to Australia, to China and India, to the West Indies, and to North America, absorbed between them four-fifths of the Vote. The principle contended for did not apply to Australia, or to India or China, but it did apply to North America. Unfortunately, however, they had surrendered the power of acting upon it for some time to come, because the con-
1552
tract with Cunard had still six years to run. The West India mail contract would expire in two years, and the suggestion of the hon. Member that the mail service there should be linked on to the North American service would not be lost sight of. With regard to the £ 20,500 for the carriage of mails to Lisbon and Gibraltar the explanation was this:—For the original service for which this sum was payable, a reduced service had been substituted, extending no further than Lisbon; and for this, which was a fortnightly service, the Company received £ 5,000 per annum only. The remainder of the subsidy payable under the original contract had been transferred towards meeting the expense of establishing the additional communication with India viâ Bombay. He had only to add, as regards the contract question at large, that the Committee which had considered that subject, had recommended a plan which they believed would combine the responsibility of the Executive with the control of that House; namely, that the Government should make the contracts, but that a clause should be inserted requiring that they should be ratified by the House of Commons. He trusted that in that way there would be full concurrence of action between the House and the Executive, and he need not say that on the expiration of the West India mail contract nothing would be done to fetter the control of Parliament in respect of it.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he was quite of opinion that every facility should be afforded for the conveyance of mails to all parts of the world, but it was unjustifiable that a tax of £ 450,000 should be levied on the people of this country for the proper affording of those facilities. The fact was, that they ought to follow the example of the American Government, which had accepted the offer of a private company to carry the mails for the amount of the postage. There were items in the Vote which were very objectionable. For instance, for the mails between Brazil and the West Indies, £ 30,000. [MR. PEEL: That pays itself.] He would then refer to the charge of £ 25,000 for conveyance of the mails between Panama and Callao. They had nothing to do with the west coast of America. He knew they had an interest in Panama, as a means of direct communication, but not in the intercourse between the two points. He also objected to the charge of £ 14,000 for the mails between

1553
Australia and New Zealand. The whole Estimate required revision. He was glad to find the Galway subsidy was withdrawn, as it had been proved that each letter conveyed by that route to America occasioned a loss to the Imperial Exchequer of 6s. "Were it not that they were bound by existing contracts, he should feel disposed to take the sense of the Committee upon some of the Votes.
MR. CRAWFORDsaid, the hon. Gentleman talked of taking the sense of the House; but it would be difficult for the House to take the sense of the hon. Member, He had never seen more ignorance displayed upon any subject. The hon. Member talked of there being no trade between this country and South America. [MR. WILLIAMS: I never mentioned South America.] He would ask where were Buenos Ayres and Callao if not in South America? The trade between this country and South America amounted to five millions annually, and for the maintenance of that trade it was necessary to keep up an effective communication. The line between Australia and New Zealand was part of the main line from this country, and recent events had shown how important it was to have frequent means of communication. He thought the hon. Member for Montrose had done good service in calling attention to the subject, and he generally approved of the views of that hon. Member. It was, however, necessary that the merchants of this country should have as speedy means of communication by steamers and by telegraphs as could be obtained. He had himself yesterday received a telegram which left Suez the previous day, the arrival of which had prevented a serious loss. What was beneficial to individuals must be beneficial to the State; and therefore there ought to be the most complete system of communication, although the utmost economy consistent with efficiency should be observed.
MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he thought that commendation was due to the hon. Member for Montrose, and also to the Secretary of the Treasury, for his pledge to observe a rigid economy in future. The money that had been spent in contracts had not been wasted, because the Cunard ships had rendered great service in the Crimea, and recently in North America. Still he was glad to hear that all future contracts would be submitted to the revision of Parliament.
MR. C. TURNERremarked, that he was opposed to a reduction in the postal subsidies as he thought that, on the whole, the Government were no losers by the contracts; while the important benefits they conferred upon the commercial interests of this country were undeniable. There was a very large trade with South America, and being connected with the Pacific Mail Company, he could state that the Government received fully the amount of payment to that Company.
MR. CONINGHAMobserved, that the hon. Member for Lambeth might be wrong in his geography, but he was right in his argument. He did not think that it was by subsidies we were likely to be best served, as they prevented competition.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYremarked, that nothing could be more careless than some of the early contracts; but his right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury seemed alive as to what should be done in future.
MR. PEELsaid, that in the month of July they would have to decide with respect to the Cape contract, but nothing had been yet done about it.
Vote agreed to.
House resumed.
Resolution to be reported on Monday next; Committee to sit again on Monday next.

SUPPLY—REPORT.
Resolutions (March 13) reported.
MR. CONINGHAMsaid, he had come down to the House on the previous day for the purpose of dividing with the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge, and he confessed that after the vote which they had come to on a previous occasion, he could not but regret that they had not an opportunity of again taking the sense of the House upon the question of restoring the Vote for the Sandhurst College. He did not know what mysterious influence had been at work to prevent a division. The benches on the Opposition side were thickly tenanted on Thursday evening, by those who, on a previous occasion, had been most strenuously opposed to the extension of Sandhurst College. It was true that on the Ministerial side there was a change of opinion on the part of some hon. Gentlemen who had voted against the Vote before they had heard the explanation of the Minister for War; but he had heard nothing to alter his opinion.

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He believed that it was detrimental to the public service to keep up a kind of Horse Guards preserve at Sandhurst; while, on the other hand, it was not the system of open competition that had led to the outbreak at Woolwich. There was on questions like this collusion, occasionally, between the Government and Gentlemen on the Opposition side; there were Ministers in esse on one side and Ministers in posse on the other, and that was the reason why the opinion of the House was not fairly.
SIR JOHN SHELLEYsaid, that if the hon. Member who had just spoken felt so strongly on this subject, he wondered why he did not divide the House himself. If he did so, he should divide against him.
COLONEL NORTHsaid, he would admit that he had characterized the conduct of the cadets at Woolwich in the recent disturbances as disgraceful, but he must deny that he had attributed the outbreak to the effect of the principle of competition. What he had said was, that the young men who had taken part in that outbreak had no ideas of discipline and no esprit de corps. The hon. Member for Brighton might himself have divided the House on the previous night. As he had not thought proper to do so, why did he come down that evening and make a "row"?
SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, that nothing was easier than for an hon. Gentleman—who was disappointed at the smallness of the minority in which he found himself, and who was not likely to persuade the majority to agree with him—to state that there had been collusion between the different sides of the House, and to represent the decision as having been brought about by undue means, when it was the result of careful debate and the closest scrutiny. Since he had been a Member of that House he had hardly ever heard a question of secondary importance, such as the question of Sandhurst must after all be considered, receive a more careful investigation. He utterly denied that there was any collusion, concert, or understanding between the different sides of the House. He was in the recollection of the House when he said that when the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Selwyn) stated that he did not intend to divide the House he (Sir G. Lewis) told him that nothing that he had said precluded him from doing so; and, for himself, he had rather wished
1556
that the hon. and learned Gentleman would go to a division. He did not think it necessary, in consequence of what the hon. Member for Brighton had said, to recur to the case at Woolwich, in regard to which he had already given an explanation. With respect to Sandhurst, however, all the information he had received led him to believe that the administration of that college was perfectly pure and free from objection. He must add that it was hardly fair to make general imputations against a place of education of this kind without supporting them by some authority in respect to the cogency of which the House might be enabled to form an opinion.
MR. AYRTONsaid, that the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge having communicated with him, he was enabled to state that his refusal to go to a division last night, so far from being a proof of collusion, was just the reverse. In considering how best the system of which he complained could be assaulted, the hon. and learned Gentleman had come to the decision that the real question at issue could not be properly raised in Committee or on the Report of Supply. The question being one of principle, the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Selwyn) thought it better to reserve his objection, and raise the point at issue under such circumstances as would give him the best chance of success.
MR. CONINGHAMsaid, he wished to explain that he intended to cast no imputation on the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Selwyn).
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, that the Votes which had been agreed to, as well as others, ought to be investigated by the Committee on Public Accounts before they were submitted to the House. He wanted to know who was responsible for the preparation of these large items, and where the guarantee was that the ways and means would not be exceeded. Although he did not wish that the Committee should come into collision with the Executive, he should like to know where the real responsibility rested.
MR. PEELsaid, that these Estimates were prepared in the first instance by the respective revenue departments, and were afterwards examined by the Treasury. Under an Act passed last Session the expenditure under these Votes was classified, so that the hon. Gentleman would have an opportunity of examining and com-

1557
paring them. The Votes would not, he believed, be found larger than was necessary for the service of the coming year. If, however, there were any balances unexhausted at the end of the financial year, they would be surrendered to the Exchequer.
Resolutions agreed to.

COURTS OF JUSTICE (MONEY).

  LEAVE.
  MR. COWPERsaid, that in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to provide further accommodation for the Courts of Justice, he wished to premise that the measure was founded on the recommendations of the Commission which sat in 1860. He need not detain the House by dwelling on the insufficient accommodation at present provided for conducting legal proceedings in the Courts of the Metropolis. Any one who would look at Westminster Hall would see that the buildings adjacent were very unfit for the purposes for which they were originally intended. As the population, the wealth, and the commerce of the country increased, so had the accommodation diminished, and the buildings which formerly might have been adequate were now become inconvenient. The present Courts were built between the years 1820 and 1825, and though the architect, Sir John Soane, had displayed great ingenuity in putting to advantage the space at his disposal, and in placing each Court between the buttresses of Westminster Hall, yet there was not sufficient accommodation for the persons frequenting the spot. There was no waiting-room for the jury or witnesses, no library for the barristers, and, with the exception of two consultation-rooms, there was no place where the opposing parties could meet; and it occasionally happened that a barrister and solicitor were discussing their cause in one corner of a small room, and the adverse barrister and solicitor discussing the other side of the question in the same room. Then the single entrance was so narrow that the order and decorum of the Courts were often interfered with, and that tone of propriety which ought to prevail could not be maintained. The Probate Registries also, which were separate from the Court, were utterly insufficient for their present purposes, and the utmost inconvenience was often felt in consequence of the remoteness of the registry from the Courts. The buildings near Doctors' Commons oc-
  1558
  cupied by the Registrars were well fitted for temporary purposes, but would not be sufficient to hold the documents necessary to enable the increased business to be carried on. Then the Courts which were held in Lincoln's Inn were placed in buildings which were never intended for the purpose, two of the Vice Chancellors' Courts having been run up in a great hurry, and there were universal complaints that they were too hot in summer, too cold in winter, and exposed to many other inconveniences. The chambers in which the Vice Chancellors had to sit to hear parties might be well suited for barristers, but were utterly unfit for judicial business. From that brief survey of the manner in which the different Courts and offices were lodged, it would be seen that a considerable sum of money would be required, and that was the time to consider whether some comprehensive plan ought not to be adopted which should provide, not only for the pressing wants of the moment, but also afford means of future extension, and give those advantages which all the legal profession acknowledged would arise from concentration under one roof or in one neighbourhood of all the Courts. The matter was well considered by the Royal Commission, which reported in 1860; they gave very strong reasons for concentration, and recommended the site which the Bill on the table proposed to provide. That site lay between Carey Street on the north, the Strand on the south, Bell Yard on the east, and Clement's Inn on the west, and seemed to be the best that could be found for the purpose in the Metropolis. It was in what was called the legal district, being inhabited by barristers and solicitors, and being the place where the legal business was mostly carried on. The plan had another advantage, which was that the site proposed consisted of a series of courts, alleys, and small streets, which were in an unwholesome and discreditable condition, and which ought to be removed. There was no carriage thoroughfare through the whole site; the inhabitants consisted partly of persons who lived by the law, and partly of persons who lived by breaches of the law, and appeared oftener in the dock than as hangers-on of the Courts.
  The Royal Commission, having unanimously recommended the site, then proceeded to show whence the funds for the purchase might be procured. It fortunately happened that there was vested

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  in the Accountant General of the Court of Chancery a sum amounting to about £ 1,400,000, consisting of two separate investments of stock—one called the Surplus Interest Fund amounting to £ 1,290,000, and the other the Surplus Suitors' Fee Fund amounting to £ 200,000. The history of those two funds was somewhat complicated. They were the produce of investments made from time to time by the Accountant General, under orders of the Court of Chancery. It was the custom of the Court of Chancery to require that any money which was the subject of a suit should be paid into Court at the commencement of the case, to be kept ready for distribution to such of the parties as might prove they were entitled to it. There were many cases in which, from the smallness of the sum, the negligence of the parties, or other causes, no order was obtained for the investment of the cash, and it was therefore carried to the account of the general balance of cash held by the Accountant General, and he was simply bound to repay the amount if called for. Previously to the year 1725 it was customary for the Masters and ushers of. the Court of Chancery to invest the money for their own advantage; but some defalcations having taken place when the South Sea bubble burst, an Act of Parliament was passed having for its object to indemnify the suitors, and accordingly certain fees were levied on writs and processes for that purpose. The Act also provided that after all claims were paid the remainder should be reserved for the benefit of the public in such a way as Parliament might direct, and that was the commencement of the fund under consideration. About ten Acts were passed in succession, enabling the Accountant General to invest certain sums, and authorizing him to carry the proceeds to his general balance. Finally an Act was passed which empowered the Lord Chancellor to give orders for such investments in all cases. The result was that a sum of £ 1,290,000 had accumulated. The money might be said to belong to nobody. Former suitors were not entitled to it, it did not belong to suitors at the present moment, and the fund was, in fact, created by virtue of the Act of Parliament authorizing the Accountant General of the Court of Chancery to invest the money. There had been various occasions in the past and present century where, in compliance
  1560
  with Acts of Parliament and decrees of the Court of Chancery, sums had been paid out of the fund for purposes similar to the present. In Ireland, also, funds which had accrued from payments by suitors were employed in enlarging the Four Courts at Dublin; so that there were precedents for the course he proposed to take of appropriating the money to the erection of courts of law and justice. As the fund had originally proceeded from duties levied in the common law courts, no distinction between the propriety of its application to courts of law and courts of equity could well be maintained. The Suitor's Fee Fund had no claim upon it, because it resulted from the surplus of unappropriated fees. Both these funds occupied very much the same position as the reserve kept by a banker to meet any demands which might possibly, though by no means probably, be made. These two funds, now invested in Consols, if sold would realize about £ 1,400,000. But, as they at present formed a guarantee for certain charges, it would be necessary that the Consolidated Fund should be substituted for them. It was scarcely possible, at the same time, that any real liability would attach, because the Suitors' Fund could be called in only in the very improbable contingency of the Court of Chancery being wound up and the stock sold. The money, moreover, having been invested, on the average, at a price below eighty-six, it followed that a deficiency could only arise in case the whole of the fund had to be converted into money at less than that rate. The fact that the surplus interest fund had gone on accumulating for a number of years sufficiently showed that no apprehensions need be entertained on that score. The employment of those funds would necessitate the abstraction of the dividends at present received, which were carried to the Suitors' Fee Fund. From that fund £ 90,000 was paid in charges for pensions, salaries, and relieving allowances. As he proposed to diminish the fund by £ 35,000 a year, he had to consider how any detriment arising to the fund from that abstraction should be provided for. There was a charge upon the fund of £ 69,000 a year for compensation allowances, which would terminate with the lives of the existing parties.
  An hon. MEMBERhere moved that the House be counted; but notice being taken that there were forty Members present,
  MR. COWPERsaid, he would not trouble the House with further details of a matter which seemed to be disagreeable to hon. Gentlemen opposite, and therefore it would be enough to state that the maximum charge which could be thrown on the public Exchequer would be £ 35,000, and it by no means followed that that sum would be thrown on the public taxation. The Exchequer during the last year had received from fees in the common law courts and Court of Probate no less a sum than £ 34,000.
  MR. LYGONsaid, he rose to order. He wished to ask whether the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman did not fall within the scope of the standing order which required that any Motion for public aid or charge upon the people should be brought in in Committee of the Whole House.
  MR. SPEAKER: This, being money of the Court of Chancery, does not come under the description of public money. But if there be a guarantee on the part of the public—as I understand will be the case—the clause embodying such guarantee will have to pass through a Committee of the Whole House.
  MR. COWPERsaid, the objection of the hon. Gentleman would not prevail, because the monies which would be expended under the Bill would be voted by the House, and the guarantee would be added to the Bill in Committee. As he had said, there might be thrown upon the public a charge equivalent to the amount received from fees, but the result of the employment of the two funds—the Surplus Interest Fund and the Suitors' Fee Fund—in building these courts would lead to a great saving in the public Exchequer; for by capitalizing the rent saved, calculating the value of the sites of certain buildings now used for offices and courts of justice, and taking into account other expenditure which would be dispensed with, a total of probably £ 500,000 would go to the credit of the State. If it were found possible to do all that was required for concentrating the courts and legal offices and providing accommodation for the transaction of legal business, for the sum which the present Bill intended to appropriate, £ 1,400,000, there would be no further charge thrown on the State. It might be, that when Parliament came to vote the necessary money, it would be thought desirable to add an additional sum to carry the principle of concentra-
  1562
  tion further; but that would be a matter for future consideration, and was not embraced by the present proposition. There existed a large sum of money, which was not appropriated for any purpose, which belonged to nobody, and he believed that it could be employed in no better manner than in the way he proposed. It would not be correct to take the money and employ it for the purpose of relieving the general taxation of the country; but it was not wrong to follow the precedent already established, and to employ the fund for the object which he now explained; and the Commission of 1860 were of opinion that there was no way in which suitors could be so much benefited as by preserving them from the vexations and delays arising from the scattered position of these courts of justice. He would therefore conclude by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to supply means towards defraying the expenses of providing courts of justice and offices belonging to the same.
  MR. LYGONsaid, he was of opinion, notwithstanding the assertion of the right hon. Gentleman that the money belonged to nobody, that it belonged to the suitors in the Court of Chancery. Demands were being constantly made on these funds, and since the agitation upon this question of building law courts, fresh demands had been made on them last year. The Bill substantially laid upon the public funds a charge of £ 35,000, and therefore he trusted, when the clauses on the point were proposed, that the matter would be carefully considered in a fuller House than the present.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, that if it was true that the fees of the Court of Chancery went into the Exchequer, this Bill would in effect take money out of the national funds. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give the House his opinion upon the subject. The fund it was proposed to employ had, he thought, accumulated mainly because of the protracted delays that used to take place in the Court of Chancery, leaving suitors to die before they could make out their claims.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, if those hon. Members who were not able to make up their minds on this subject would read the evidence of the Commissioners for concentrating the Courts, which he had read from beginning to end half a dozen times,

  1563
  they would see clearly how this fund had arisen. The fund was formed, not from the money belonging to any particular suit, but from the profits which had been made out of the investment of the loose cash of the suitors, and which had accumulated for 120 or 130 years. It was of the nature of the profit which a banker made from investing the deposits of his customers. The subject was very intricate and complicated, and ought to be well considered.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERobserved, that the measure was one of such importance as to render it desirable that hon. Members should have their attention closely directed to its provisions, even in its earliest stages. The history of many great works undertaken by the public, and especially of the magnificent building in which they 'were housed, had not been satisfactory. Parliament had commenced that work with a somewhat inadequate consideration of the cost, and the impression made upon the community by the quadrupling and quintupling of the original Estimates was a feeling that the next time the outside cost of the works ought to be stated in the first instance. The proposal of his right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works, however, distinctly showed that in the view of the Government the concentration of our law courts was a scheme of practical improvement, which was worthy of being prosecuted, even at the hazard of a considerable public charge. That being 80, they found at their disposal in the Court of Chancery funds which, on every ground of public and private justice, they deemed to be applicable to the attainment of that object, and on the soundness of that view he had no doubt hon. Members generally would concur. So far as he had been able to form a judgment on the matter, it was pretty clear that the funds to which he referred would supply the greater portion of the expense of the undertaking in question; but it was, at the same time, evident from the computation which had been made by the Commissioners, that there was a margin which might render it necessary, first of all, that the public credit, and secondly the public purse, should be called into requisition. The precise extent to which that might be the case he was unable to predict; but the worst aspect of the question had been laid before the House, and hon. Members would have the fullest opportunity of ex-
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  amining all its details for themselves. It was, at all events, but right to state that, according to the computation of the Commissioners, it was plain there would be a certain amount of public charge in connection with the proposed buildings, and that he believed that charge would be even greater than the amount at which they had fixed it; for there was one fund in particular, that which related to the proceeds of the fees of the common law courts, which was at the present moment part of the public property. It was quite plain, therefore, that the proposal of his right hon. Friend presented features which were well deserving of the careful consideration of the House; but for his own part he must say, that although he should be exceedingly reluctant to contemplate the imposition of any additional charge on the public, he felt the advantages of economy and despatch in the administration of justice, which would be likely to be brought about by the concentration of our courts of law, were so great that he had no hesitation in recommending the Bill under discussion to the approval of Parliament.
  MR. LYGONsaid, he felt bound, after the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, from which it was evident that the right hon. Gentleman contemplated that some portion of the expense of the proposed buildings would fall on the public, again to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Speaker) to know whether the First Commissioner of "Works had not failed to comply with the principle laid down in the Standing Order in not introducing his Bill in Committee of the whole House?
  MR. SPEAKER: As far as I understand the matter, the Bill as presented to the House proposes to deal with the monies accruing from funds in the Court of Chancery. If anything is contained in the Bill itself which imposes a charge on the public, the suggestion of the hon. Member that it should have originated in a Committee of the whole House is perfectly well founded. I do not, however, understand that the Bill contains a provision of the sort; but if it should prove otherwise, then its introduction, save in Committee of the whole House, would be out of order.
  MR. HENNESSYasked, whether the present measure was the same as that of last year?
  MR. COWPERsaid, that the Bill en-

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  acted that, when Parliament voted a sum of money for this purpose, the amount should be taken from the funds belonging to the Court of Chancery.
  Leave given.
  Bill to supply means towards defraying the Expenses of providing Courts of Justice, and Offices belonging to the same, ordered to be brought in by Mr. COWPER, Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, and Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.

  SELECT COMMITTEE.
  MR. HENRY SEYMOUR MR. HENRY SEYMOUR moved the appointment of the Committee on the Ecclesiastical Commission.
  MR. LYGONobjected to the composition of the Committee.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That Mr. Henry Seymour be one of the Members of the Select Committee on the Ecclesiastical Commission."
  The House divided: —Ayes 33; Noes 1: Majority 32.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Twelve o'clock, till Monday nest.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Officers' Commissions.
3a Exchequer Bills.

EDUCATION—THE REVISED CODE OF REGULATIONS.—OBSERVATIONS.
LORD ST. LEONARDS, pursuant to notice, rose to call the attention of the House to so much of the Revised Code of Education as relates to the grouping of the Children for Examination. The noble and learned Lord said that he had no intention to enter at any length into the provisions of the Revised Code, nor had he any intention to find fault generally with the measure. On the contrary, he confessed that he admired some of it prin-
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ciples, believing that the time had arrived for the adoption of some measure that would impose some limits to the great expenditure incurred under the present system. There were many provisions of the revised measure of which he approved; and he thought that if some further modifications were introduced, the new arrangement would work very well. But he could not help regretting that religious examination was altogether lost sight of. It was his opinion that the religous education, which the lower, orders of the people received at the National Schools, had a much greater influence than people imagined, for the children took home the lessons they were taught, and thus spread an influence over their parents and other relatives. The examinations were unobjectionable as regarded boys; but he thought that some parts were decidedly objectionable when applied to girls, who did not require the same extent of education in some of the branches. Instruction in reading, writing, and arithmetic, was no doubt important to girls as well as to boys; but the former had to devote a portion of the day to learning how to perform household work, and other domestic duties, and especially needlework, which were so important to them in after-life, and therefore could not bestow so much time on reading, writing, and arithmetic as boys could. He was not disposed to agree with the right rev. Prelate who addressed their Lordships the other evening (the Bishop of Oxford) in the estimation which he seemed to place upon these three branches of knowledge. In his opinion, they formed the best possible foundation for the education which could be given in the National Schools to the children of the labouring poor. It was too much to expect anything like proficiency in dictation from those poor children, when men of mature age and ample education often failed to come up to the standard when subjected to competitive examination. He considered that the test of writing from dictation should not form a ground for making the grant. He thought that writing should be paid for as a result; and a small gratuity might be added for writing from dictation. The heading is writing—the thing required is writing from dictation. He altogether objected to the grouping according to age in our National schools. Who would propose to educate their own children on such a system as that proposed under the Revised Code?

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He hoped and trusted that the regulation as to grouping would be struck out as inoperative for any purpose of good;—for that was really the most important point presented for their consideration under this new Code. The difficulty it was said had arisen from not distinguishing between examination and instruction; but surely it required no great difficulty for any sane man to discern the difference between them. It was utterly absurd to talk of ranging children ill a national school according to their age instead of according to their proficiency. They might as well group the children according to weight as according to age; for the latter was in reality no test of intellectual progress. He could understand, when a number of boys were first promiscuously thrown together for education, that it would be proper to range them, in the first instance, according to age, until the intellectual progress of each had been, in a manner, ascertained; but when that had once been done, the position of the boys should be determined according to their ability; otherwise a boy of fifteen years of age, who might be the greatest dunce in the school, might appear at its head, while a boy of ten years of age, and of distinguished abilities, might be placed among the lowest children. If such a system as this were adopted in a school, nothing better could be expected than that it should tumble to pieces; for it would crush all competition and emulation among the children, and bring them all to one melancholy dead level. Parents, too, would not like to see the places of clever children taken by children who could not answer; a single question in the examinations. For himself, he did not hesitate to say that he would not give his support to a school conducted on such a principle. He thought they must come to the conclusion that the carrying out of this proposal was utterly impracticable if the good discipline of the schools was to be kept up. The scheme, he contended, would be found to work great injustice in the case of scholars whose talents had advanced when in the school to a position beyond their years, and, in fact, to be utterly impracticable. The requirements of the groups were in several instances altogether beyond the capacity of the children, and should therefore be lowered. Nothing would be more disastrous to the cause of education than that any scheme should be introduced which turned out unsuccessful.
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He therefore hoped that delay would take place in the introduction of any alterations in the present system, and that they would only be made after the fullest consideration. It should be borne in mind that the children in national schools were not, like the children of the wealthy classes, kept continuously at school and carefully watched and taught during their vacations. The noble and learned Lord then went minutely into the detail of three tables (which were subsequently laid upon the table with Resolutions to be moved by him in accordance with his observations). The first table showed the exact state of the classes of Thames Ditton School as they at present stood; the second showed how greatly those classes must be broken up and distributed in order to form the grouping required by the Revised: Code; and the third exhibited the result of an examination of both the boys' and the girls' schools according to the groups, and which examination he (Lord St. Leonards) said proved how impossible it was to adopt the grouping of the Code without the most serious injury to the schools.
LORD KINGSDOWNsaid, he desired before the noble Earl the Lord President replied, to call his attention to the hardship that would arise in particular cases as soon as the revised scheme was carried into effect. He was not about to controvert the principle on which that scheme was founded. It was very reasonable, where in past time there had been any neglect, that the managers of those schools should suffer the consequences. But the case to which he wished to call attention was that of schools in neighbourhoods where there was a large mass of population, and few wealthy residents. The only means of maintaining schools in such localities, or establishing them in the first instance, was to procure subscriptions in the locality to erect the schools, and then rely afterwards on the payments from the children and the Government grant. He had presented a petition, a few days ago, from Chatham, representing the case of the school in that neighbourhood. By the aid of a subscription £ 2,400 was raised, and a school was established. The only means by which that school could hope to be maintained was the government grant, to which under the old system it was entitled. The managers had not incurred any charge of neglect, but the school had not been opened for more than twelve months, and of course

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but little progress in teaching could as yet have been made, and under these circumstances he understood that according to the Revised Code the School would be entitled to little or no allowance. This was the statement he had received of the position of the schools at Chatham—
"Perhaps you will allow me to ask your attention to the very great difficulties in which the schools in Chatham will be placed if the new Code, even if revised as proposed, be adopted. Of four Sets of schools in Chatham and Brampton, showing an average attendance of nearly a thousand Scholars, one school for boys, with an average attendance of about a hundred children, who belong mainly to the working class, must be closed In this case (St. Paul's, Chatham) the managers are already behindhand with their funds, and they cannot sustain the least further liability. The managers of a second set of schools (St. John's) contemplate raising the payments of the children, the result of which change must be to drive away the scholars, whose parents are of the labouring class. Such, in this instance, would be the effect of the adoption of the new Minutes, even as revised. In a third and very important set of schools at Brompton, the result of the changes on the part of Government would be probably to sever the connection with the Committee of Council, and certainly to divert the education from the lowest to a higher class. In the fourth, which is our own case, the schools include boys' school, girls' school, both under certificated teachers, and infants' school under a mistress not certificated The result of the new Code would be that one of these schools, and one certificated teacher, would disappear. Our schools supply education to 280 children, with an average attendance of 200, at least 80 per cent being bonâ fide of the working class."
The chief defect in the new system was, that it would press with great severity upon the districts which most needed Government assistance. It was extremely hard that persons, who had expended their money and their time in establishing such schools, should now find that both money and time were thrown away. If this evil could be remedied, a point of much importance would be gained; and he therefore asked for it the attention of the Committee of Council, whose sole object, he was sure, must be to introduce that system which would work best in practice and which would prove most acceptable to the public.
THE BISHOP OF LONDON: My Lords, probably the noble Earl will be anxious to know the general feeling of those who on the whole are well disposed towards the new Code, but who think it is susceptible of some changes for the better. The remarks of the noble Baron who has just spoken (Lord St. Leonards) seem to point to one change which every person with whom I have spoken desires to see made.
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Even those who are most favourable to the principle of the Code, including, I believe, the Commissioners themselves, are of the same opinion. The noble Baron has stated that some schools, which have been lately formed, will suffer very greatly, because the children there cannot at present come up to the test imposed by the examination. Now, I believe that the plan proposed by the Commission of Inquiry was, that there should be two sorts of grants—one which should depend upon the results of examination, and the other upon attendance merely. Important as it is to introduce the principle of examination, and to make the payment to the schools depend greatly upon that test, persons most conversant with the system believe that it is still almost indispensable to give some weight to the mere fact of attendance, so that the money gained by each school should depend to some extent upon the regular attendance of the children, even of those who are unable to pass the examination. This concession has been made in the case of children under a certain age. There is a general feeling that a similar concession should be allowed in the case of older children; and I believe that if the Government were to concede this point, public feeling with regard to the Code would be greatly changed. It is said that though this Code shows an honest desire to extend the benefits of these schools to remote country districts which have not hitherto been reached by the Government system, still the test of examination will bear hardly upon those country districts, where you have great difficulty in getting the children to make the progress which they attain in large schools in towns. It is further said that the governors of schools will be little disposed to pledge themselves to pay the masters and pupil-teachers when great uncertainty will prevail whether schools will receive any money from the Government—an uncertainty, too, depending upon the results of a single day. I will not weary your Lordships by touching upon the causes which may prevent the attendance of the children on that particular day, or upon the flurry and excitement which the examination will be sure to create. If, therefore, in addition to the stimulus which the examination will give, you make a further grant for attendance, the school managers will be encouraged to go quietly on with their work throughout the year; they will probably then be willing to incur the

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obligation of paying teachers and masters, and you will avoid the uncertainty which must always attend an examination held on one particular day in the year. I believe that a great change of feeling has taken place in reference to this Revised Code, during the last few weeks. I cannot say that all the feelings of irritation with which it was first received—feelings not, perhaps, very unnatural under the circumstances—have been altogether allayed; but there has certainly been a change. I cannot speak for the clergy generally, but I can speak for a great many of them, and I find that those of the clergy with whom I have opportunities of consulting are, on the, whole not unfavourable to the Code. At the same time, they are apprehensive upon particular points, and on no one point is there greater apprehension than on that to which I have alluded. As a concession has been made with regard to infants under seven, no new machinery will be necessary to make the same principle apply to children above that age. Let one-third of the grant, if yon please, be given for regular attendance in the case of children above seven, and let two-thirds await the test of examination. If this were done, I believe that much of the feeling which at present agitates the minds of the clergy and others, interested in the schools would gradually disappear. I am glad that my right rev. Brother (the Bishop of Oxford) spoke as he did the other night, because it is well, when feelings like those which he described exist, that they should find vent, and they did find vent on that occasion. But it would be wrong to judge of the feelings of the clergy generally by the state of things several months back. It is certain that formerly in different parts of the country perpetual dissatisfaction was expressed with the old Code, and perpetual complaints were made that the masters were above their work, and that the education given was not the most useful possible. I have repeatedly heard it said that reading, writing, and arithmetic ought to be better taught, even though the more ornamental parts of education were left alone; and complaints were also made that the pupil-teachers and the masters were so independent of the managers, and considered themselves so much the officers of the Government in Downing-street, that it was difficult to get on with them. I do not say that those complaints were always well founded, but such a feeling
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existed, and, judging from this fact, a change in the system seemed called for. But it is singular enough that a system which may be said to have been introduced at the point of the, bayonet, and which was so much complained of, should have enlisted every one loudly in its praise at the moment when it seems about to expire.
"Virtutem incolumem odimus,
Sublatam ex oculis quærimus in vidi."
Perhaps a good deal of this feeling is owing to the manner in which its successor has been introduced, rather than to its own virtues. It may be possible to do a palatable thing in an unpalatable way; and a system which would come recommended by gentleness and conciliation suffers in public opinion under ruder and rougher treatment. The outcry at first raised against the Code was not unnatural, but I think it has, upon the whole, subsided; and what is now the earnest desire of the school-promoters is, that as some change was perfectly inevitable ever since the verdict pronounced by the Royal Commissioners, that change should now be introduced in them manner least likely to injure the schools, and to expose the clergy and others, who run great risks in managing them, to the difficulties which, they apprehend under the, new system.
EARL GRANVILLE: —My Lords, I am very glad to express my satisfaction at the tone and temper of the speeches we Have heard this evening; and a complaint which I might have had to make against the two noble and learned Lords has been removed by the right rev. Prelate who has just sat down. Those noble and learned Lords pointed out several objections to the proposed system, but they omitted to point out any mode by which those difficulties could be avoided. The Government is placed in a most difficult position when they introduce a measure—immensely assisted as they have been by the manner in which the question has been ventilated—and when they have made alterations in compliance with the suggestions of various critics to meet all the objections which have been raised, to find those objections repeated, without any suggestions how the difficulties were to be met. There is, no doubt, a great deal in what has been said by the noble and learned Lord of the evil inseparable from any system of grant. If voluntary efforts are not forthcoming, the evil is insuperable, unless the Government were to assume—as I think few persons in this country would wish

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them to assume—the whole duty of providing education for the people. There is one way in which this difficulty has been met in large districts, where voluntary contributions were not forthcoming, and that has been by means of a rate, as was recommended by the Royal Commissioners. The Government, however, decided not to adopt that recommendation, not having heard anything in its favour. With respect to some schools referred to by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Kingsdown), it seems to me that one of them at least was bankrupt in point of instruction. It failed to teach reading, writing, and arithmetic, or it would have obtained the capitation grant. Unless we break down the whole (System, I do not see how otherwise we can deal with schools in this condition. The right rev. Prelate has rather objected to the manner in which this Revised Code was introduced, as though it might have met with a different reception had the manner of its introduction been different. I do not object to the discussion that has taken place, for if we had not had it, we could not have had that change of opinion in its favour which has occurred, and which is increasing every day. But when the right rev. Prelate points out that the pressure is entirely of a pecuniary character, I cannot flatter myself that the Vice President of the Council or myself could, by any increased sweetness of manner, have pleased those from whom, for the first time, We required results before payment. Our object has not been, and is not, to destroy a good work, but to cure defects, and to create some stimulus to ensure that schools shall really impart sound elementary instruction before receiving the public assistance. The right rev. Prelate proposes to reduce that stimulus to an almost infinitesimal amount. His proposition to pay one-half or one-third for mere attendance would very much lessen the stimulus we desire to apply, and without which the whole system would be really useless. I must now notice the observations of the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord St. Leonards). In the first place I must thank him for his acknowledgment of the general advantage of the new Code. It was necessary to apply some check to the continually increasing expenditure on schools. There was one point in the noble and learned Lord's speech that would have caused me pain had I not a complete answer to it—I mean his apprehension that the religious instruction in schools would be interfered
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with by what we propose to do. Now, the right rev. Prelate who addressed us the other night (the Bishop of Oxford), and who exhausted every topic of objection against the Code, left that point quite untouched, and the right rev. Prelatte who has just spoken (the Bishop of London) has made no complaint of any such apprehended interference. Your Lordships will remember a story of Oliver Goldsmith, about three men who were discussing the consequences of an expected invasion—an overburdened porter, who asked what would become of our property; an imprisoned debtor, who feared for our liberties; and a soldier, who exclaimed in more forcible language than I shall employ here, "What will become of our religion?" Considering that the right rev. Prelates have not thought it necessary to point out any threatened danger to religion conveyed in the new Code, I hardly expected that a lawyer would have been anxious on that account. But knowing the deep religious feeling of the noble and learned Lord, and also that the laity, as well as the clergy, are interested in so important a matter, it is not so surprising that he should have expressed the feelings which he entertains. But I am glad to be able to assure him that he is wrong in that apprehension. We have recently seen some Resolutions laid upon the table of this House, and some are about to be proposed in another place, intended to meet all the points of controversy in relation to this question, but in neither of these is there the slightest allusion to any religious difficulty. The noble and learned Lord has discussed some of the details of this question. I confess I feel in some difficulty in answering him. Upon questions that come before this House, involving the consideration of the existing law or amendments of that law, it would be presumptuous in me to contend with the noble and learned Lord. He is a great lawyer and a distinguished Judge, but even his long and useful life has not made him the highest authority upon the best mode of teaching children in National Schools; certainly not so high an authority as another noble Lord (Lord Lyttelton), who has devoted himself to the cause of education—who was the first last year to sound an alarm, and to commence an agitation against the new Code, and who recently proposed certain Resolutions which he afterwards thought it right to withdraw. That noble Lord came to the conclusion that we were perfectly right in the course we had adopted, both as to the

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examination of children individually, and also as to the question of age. As regards the standard of requirements we have agreed upon, the objection is somewhat novel, that it is of too exacting a character. On the contrary, the point which I have heard argued with the greatest force is, that by the limit we put to the instruction required we are degrading and lowering the quantity of instruction which ought to be given to children of the labouring classes. The noble and learned Lord dwelt to-night on the monstrous anomaly of teaching girls arithmetic. He said they did not know it, and they would never learn it. If they do not know it already, that is a reason why you should begin to teach it to them. If the noble and learned Lord doubts its being of use to them, I will ask him to go into the shops of any small tradesmen, and I am very much mistaken if he will not be told that one of their great difficulties is to get girls who are able to keep the books, because they have not that knowledge of accounts which is so really useful in establishments of that sort. And when he says girls cannot learn arithmetic, that is an imputation on the female mind of this country which I cannot for a moment admit. I believe at that early age girls are much more quick and intelligent than boys. I certainly know nothing in the physical or moral condition of English young women that should render them incapable of learning the common rules of arithmetic, if they were properly taught to them. In France, from the greatest houses of business down to the lowest shops, females are employed in keeping the accounts. The noble and learned Lord thinks great loss of time, and consequent expense, will attend the individual examination of children. This is a matter which I hardly think it right at present to discuss; but I may mention that the system is carried out with great ease in schools in Ireland, and I have no doubt experience will enable us to make proper arrangements here. Even if we are obliged to increase the number of Inspectors, I believe it will be good economy, where you are spending large sums of money, to insure, by a small percentage, that the sums are properly applied. With regard to the examination of children, the noble and learned Lord seems entirely to have misapprehended what we are about to do. In the first place, so far from wishing to diminish the instruction given, we hope, under our system, that all those
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branches of instruction which are now taught will Continue to be taught under the beneficent action of the managers of schools; all we do is to insist on a minimum standard of knowledge in elementary subjects in order to justify us in giving the grant to the particular school. We do not intend in these examinations by age to interfere with the classes in the school either before or after the examination. The noble and learned Lord alluded to the inspection of particular corps, and to the fact that an officer, with an experienced eye could at once judge how they went through their movements. No doubt, in the same way, an experienced Inspector could judge very well of the general tone and discipline of a school, and of the mutual relations of master and scholars; but an examination of the knowledge which each child possesses of reading, writing, and arithmetic, to be worth anything at all, must be individual. You cannot set twenty children to read at once with any hope of being able to distinguish how each acquits himself. Knowing the great interest which the noble and learned Lord takes in the subject of education, and the kind way in which he often comes forward to suggest to the Government modes of remedying existing evils, I listened for any indication of the means by which he thought the objections to individual examination might be overcome; but I do not think he gave any.
LORD ST. LEONARDS: By taking them according to the class.
EARL GRANVILLE: I think the objection to taking children according to the class has been very clearly pointed out by the noble and learned Lord himself. The managers and masters of schools would have a direct pecuniary interest in keeping the clever, better-instructed children, who ought naturally to be in the first class, back in the second class, so as to make sure that in every case the minimum amount of instruction would be certified, and the grant obtained. The noble and learned Lord quoted the case of a clever girl who said, "If I get put down, my mother will not send me to school." I believe one of the great advantages of this standard of proficiency according to age to be that it will introduce quite a new element into the school. If parents know that a certain standard will be required, they will be deeply mortified if their child does not reach it, and there will be a stimulant to send their children to school which

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does not at present exist. I stated the other day that, after most careful consideration, I believed every one of the alternatives proposed by way of substitutes for particular details of this Code broke down on investigation, and I am afraid the course now suggested by the noble and learned Lord, while very greatly increasing the pecuniary grants to schools, would not obtain compensating advantages. These Parliamentary grants ought to be an instrument for remedying evils which exist. The impossibility of keeping the children of the labouring classes at school beyond a certain age, even though it may be desirable to do so, is admitted. Your efforts, therefore, must be to obtain as constant an attendance as possible at an early age, which is the only chance of getting for them such elementary instruction as will fit them for the positions they may occupy in after-life. The noble and learned Lord says that girls are often taken away from school to mind younger sisters at home. But the great inducements we hold out in the infant schools ought to lead them to bring their sisters there, and to attend themselves in the higher classes. The noble and learned Lord gave a number of statistics, which I found it rather hard to follow, and he said they had been furnished at his request, without the parties having the most remote notion why he wanted them I do not know whether the amount of simplicity is greater than anywhere else in the district, which has come under the observation of the noble and learned Lord, but I think a schoolmaster or schoolmistress who is asked just at this moment to furnish statistics on particular points of educational interest must have some notion, at least, of the purpose for which they are required. Be that as it may, I have not the slightest doubt these returns were fairly made. In some respects the results which they disclosed seemed to me very good; in others I thought there was a lamentable failure, and this very inequality is what the Revised Code seeks to amend. After the enormous amount of statistics published by the Royal Commissioners, I have grave doubts whether those of any single school would be of much value; and therefore I am afraid I cannot accede to the request of the noble and learned Lord that the return should be printed. I have only, in conclusion, to thank the House for the very moderate and candid tone in which the subject has been debated.
LORD ST. LEONARDSin reply denied
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that he had made any direct charge of want of capacity in female children.
House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.