Sitting of 2 June 1862

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Merchant Shipping Acts, &c. Amendment.
2° Transfer of Land; Declaration of Title; Security of Purchasers; Real Properly (Title of Purchasers); Assurances Registration (Ireland).
3° Highways; Education of Pauper Children.

THE CHIEF CONSTABLE OF EAST SUFFOLK.—QUESTION.
MR. G. W. BENTINCKsaid, he rose to ask the Secretary of State for the Homo Department, Whether he has received information of the delay of the Chief Constable of East Suffolk in attending to a complaint respecting his Chief Superintendent in October last; and whether he intends, in consequence, to issue any rules for the guidance of Chief Constables in cases of complaints against their subordinates, and for the prevention of errors of judgment, and of delays consequent thereon, in future?
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, in reply, that the matter had come under the cognizance of the Police Committee, who, he understood, had expressed an opinion on the subject; and thought that the Chief

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Constable committed an error of judgment. He was not aware that any rule on the subject was necessary; but if so, he should have no objection to have one framed. This case had been disposed of by the Police Committee, and the Chief Constable was responsible to the magistrates.

AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HEYGATEsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is the intention of the Government to take any further steps with reference to the collection of Agricultural Statistics?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, the Correspondence on the table would inform the House what had been the answers received from the Chairmen of Quarter Sessions on the subject. There were some counties in which the magistrates were willing to have statistics collected by the police, but in the majority of counties it was objected to. It was not thought desirable to have them partially collected. An application had been made to the Registrar General as to whether he could devise a plan for the collection of those statistics, but no decision had as yet been come to on the subject.

DISSOLUTION OF THE CANADIAN PARLIAMENT.—QUESTION.
COLONEL FRENCHsaid, he would take that opportunity of asking the right hon. Gentleman, Whether it was true that the Governor General of Canada had taken upon himself to dissolve the Canadian Parliament without consulting Her Majesty's Government?
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, that Her Majesty's Government had received no information on the subject except that which had appeared in the public papers.

PATENTS FOR INVENTIONS.

  HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
  Answer to Address [27th May] reported, as follows:—
  "I have received your Address praying that a Commission may be issued to inquire into the working of the Law relating to Letters Patent for Inventions:
  "And I have given directions that a Commission shall issue for the purpose which you have requested."

TRANSFER OF LAND BILL.

  [BILL NO. 101.] SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR WALPOLEsaid, he had to present a petition from attorneys, solicitors, and proctors, praying that it might not be passed in its present shape, but that it be amended, so as to give effect to the recommendations of the Registration Commissioners of 1854 for establishing a system of registration of titles to land.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, that the importance of the subject to which the Bill referred was universally admitted, and it was no longer incumbent upon him to demonstrate the utility of a measure which would give certainty and security of title, which would aim at perpetuating those advantages, and which would simplify and facilitate the transfer of real property. The House and the country were fully impressed with the magnitude of the evils which undoubtedly existed under the present system. Those evils might be stated in a few words. Under a complicated system of real property law which had grown up in this country, every vendor was under the necessity of deducing from a great variety of instruments a title which to be safe could not be for less than sixty years. The deeds were first examined by his solicitor, and the title perfected. An abstract was then delivered to the purchaser, and some practised conveyancer, was employed to see what possible holes and flaws could be found. The same process was gone through every time any fragment of the property was sold, and the House could easily understand that the expense entailed was considerable. It was true that a purchaser might now and then, be found who would dispense with the investigation, but it was a common saying in the Court of Chancery that a "willing purchaser" meant an unlimited amount of litigation. The great points which in all the Bills which had come before the House had been aimed at as remedying these evils were two—first, to find some means by which a title once established should be deemed good for ever; second, to make such a record of the title, first ascertained and granted either absolutely or subject to certain qualifications, as should for the future facilitate its transfer, give certainty to dealings with it, and preserve it in a position of safety, certainty, and security. It was not difficult to judge of the practi-

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  cability of the first of the two measures, because they had some experience to guide them. In Ireland the experiment of giving Parliamentary titles, after due investigation, through the medium of a court of law, had been tried on a large scale, and with signal success. Among the great obligations which the country owed to the name of Romilly, not the least was the introduction by the Master of the Rolls of a measure which had been attended with such important beneficial consequences as the Encumbered Estates Act. The application of that Act was originally limited to estates subject to encumbrances, but it had since been extended to cases where no sale was necessary, and where no encumbrances existed. That was done by the Act of 1858, which established the Landed Estates Court; which was intended to be a permanent institution, and was empowered to give a Parliamentary title in respect of the properties passing through it. He believed Parliament and the country had every reason to be well satisfied with that course of legislation, and, as far as the present Bill went in the same direction, he presumed the House would be prepared to accept it. A noble Lord (Lord Cranworth) had introduced in another place the Bill which stood next on the paper. The provisions of that Bill were so entirely satisfactory that the Government was ready to adopt them, either as a separate measure or by incorporating them with the present Bill, according to the wish of the House. The Commissioners of 1854 recommended that titles granted under their plan should be guaranteed by Parliament, and that a fee fund should he formed as a source of compensation to persons who might be unjustly deprived of their estates. No provision for compensation was contained in the present Bill; but it was for the House to consider whether it should or should not be inserted. It was for the Lower House to initiate a proposal of that kind, which could not have been made by the Lords with much chance of acceptance by hon. Members. There was no reason, as far as he could judge, to apprehend that any serious pecuniary liability would be fastened on the country by a provision for compensation, so that a very small percentage on the value of estates which receive the benefit of the Act would be sufficient to meet all claims which were likely to arise on that score. Under the clauses of a similar kind in the Railway Acts, the companies had not been called
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  upon to pay any serious sums; and under the Irish Encumbered Estates Act, although about a third of the land of Ireland had passed through the Court, compensation had been claimed only in two cases: in one case to the amount of about £3,000; and in the other by a person who was the owner of a fee-simple estate, upon which there was a lease of 400 or 500 years to run. That claim was compromised for £20. The next point was the record of the title. It had been constantly asserted that there was no reason why the transfer of land should not be made as simple and easy as the transfer of stocks, shares, or ships. There was, however, a substantial difference between land and other kinds of property, which would always prevent the former from being transferred so readily and simply as other investments. Stocks and shares had no special identity of their own, but were, to a certain extent, abstractions. They represented a fixed unity, consisting of an aliquot share of a sum which was susceptible of arithmetical measurement. One sum of £100, or one share, was just as good as another £100, or another share in the same stock or company. But land was a reality, and not an abstraction—it was valuable for itself, as well as for the property it represented. The case of ships might at first sight seem more analogous; but in reality it also was different. The law divided the value of each ship into sixty-four parts, any one of which might be transferred upon the registry. And then, although there was this or that ship in question, each proprietor held only a certain share of the entire value, and could not assume physical possession of any particular part of the vessel. In endeavouring to facilitate the transfer of land, it was not intended to diminish the value of the ownership to the owners, or to prevent them from having the same means of making provision for their families, of settling their estates, or dealing with them according to their will and pleasure, which they now by law enjoyed. Bearing that principle in mind, he would remind the House of what had already taken place to clear the way for a measure on the subject. In the year 1853 certain Bills were received from the House of Lords providing for a system of registration of assurances. Those Bills were referred to a Select Committee, which recommended that they should not be proceeded with, but that a Royal Com-

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  mission should be issued to inquire into the subject. Before that Committee an eminent and able solicitor, Mr. Cookson, developed a scheme which was in substance afterwards approved by the Royal Commission, and in principle adopted by the hon. and learned Member for Belfast (Sir Hugh Cairns) in the Bill which he introduced into Parliament in the year 1859. Mr. Cookson's idea was to distinguish between land as an article of sale and as the subject of beneficial ownership; and he thought that in registering or recording the title it was inexpedient to look beyond the aspect of the land regarded simply as a commodity or article of sale. In accordance with that idea, he proposed that the register should be only of fee-simple interests, or of interests equivalent to the fee-simple, which would enable the land to be brought into the market. That view appeared to him (the Solicitor General) to be rather arbitrary. Mortgages, for example, whilst they were an accessory to the ownership of land, entered also into its quality considered as a subject of sale and purchase. At the same time, Mr. Cookson thought there might also be a subsidiary register of encumbrances and leases. He was asked whether he would include leases for lives as well as for years? Of course he would. Then what did he say to a common estate for life? Was that to be registered? That question seemed to puzzle him at first, and then he said he regarded that as a lease for life. But it subsequently appeared that that was not his view, and he recommended the register of a fictitious ownership to be created in cases where there was not really a fee-simple in possession—that the fictitious owner should be registered, and that other interests should be secured by cautions and caveats, and notices of that kind. That scheme was adopted by the Commission, of which he would remark, that the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Cambridge was a distinguished member. The present Bill did not in all respects adhere to the recommendations of that Commission, but, in his opinion, proposed a great advance upon the plan sanctioned by it. The Commission, having considered and rejected the proposal for the establishment of a register of assurances—that was, of deeds or instruments as distinguished from the result of those instruments, constituting the title—recommended in substance the adoption of Mr. Cookson's plan, according to which, where there was not an estate equivalent to a
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  fee-simple, persons were to be appointed either by a court, under settlement, or in some other way, who would appear upon the register as the formal owners, having the actual right to transfer, but having in many, perhaps in most cases, no real or beneficial interest whatever in the land. To that plan there were many objections. The principle one was that it would not attain that which ought to be the real object of legislation of this kind. It would not give to those who were truly and really the owners of landed property a simple and effectual means of ascertaining and securing upon the register their titles, so that in all their dealings with purchasers they might be able to refer to that register as superseding the parchment title, as rendering unnecessary the making out of abstracts in the old way, and as containing the authentic record of the title as it actually existed. In the Bill of which he was proposing the second reading that defect had been remedied; its object was to represent the true title, and to make all the real estates and interests in land, and no fictions, the subjects of the record—of the registry, not of assurances, but of the titles which they gave. But, according to the plan recommended by the Commissioners, if any considerable lapse of time took place between one settlement and another, there would be a series of ownerships off the register, not ascertained or authenticated at all, and, in fact, no security or information about any one of them could be given by the register. He remembered a case which came on in the House of Lords, in which a gentleman bought an estate, the title deeds were handed to him, and he was in possession of it for a considerable length of time; but it afterwards appeared that another person had got a mortgage upon it, and that would be the case if the register did not disclose the real state of the title. But that was not all. The enormous dangers to landed property, if that plan were introduced without the most cogent and effectual safeguards, made it necessary for the Commissioners to recommend that there should be a vast system of checks, caveats, and cautions, by which any person having a beneficial interest might, without disclosing that interest or giving any security, but merely by entering his name, prevent any dealings by the legal owners without notice to him. The result was, that when they had got an estate, they with one hand put on the register an apparent title, and with the

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  other hand closed up the register with an infinite number of inhibitions, caveats, and cautions, which must be got rid of before any dealings with it could take place. In order to avoid that difficulty, to record every one's interest was, he ventured to say, the only practicable system. Indeed, the Commissioners themselves felt the difficulty which their proposal involved, because they said that beneficial interests in land not amounting to the fee might he usefully registered, but that such a registry ought not to he mixed up with and form part of the principal register of titles. They said there should be what they called a "subsidiary" registry of other interests in land. When the Commissioners were asked whether a registry of assurances was desirable, they justly pointed out the defects and inconveniences of the system. But a registry of title presenting all the parts of that title, had, as far as he could see, nothing in common with a registry of assurances, which alone was considered objectionable. Though gratefully availing themselves, therefore, of the labours of the Commissioners, the supporters of the present measure did not think it inconsistent not to adopt their proposals in their entirety. "They proposed to make the scheme still more perfect, and to attempt to remove some of the difficulties which stood in their way. It was intended that purchasers might safely trust whatever appeared on the register under the Bill. When an indefeasible title was to be obtained, a very strict inquiry was to be made; and an opportunity would he given, in the various stages of that inquiry, for all parties interested in the estate to come forward. Due notice would be given to them. The statement of title was to be drawn up as shortly and concisely as possible. The effect of registration would then be to give, in favour of any subsequent purchaser for valuable consideration, an indefeasible title, subject only to the reservations and conditions which might be mentioned on the register. Nothing could be more simple and sure than a transfer under the system. A certificate was to be given of the title on the register. That certificate could be brought into the market, and it would be conclusive evidence to every one that the party to whom it had been granted was entitled to the estate and interest in the property therein described, subject only to such dealings as might have taken place after the date to which that certificate referred.
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  It would be in the power of the owner of property to send the certificate up to town and have an entry made on it of any dealings subsequent to its date. Deaths, births, marriage settlements, and other such dealings with the estate would be entered. The Bill provided for a short and simple form of transfer. In ordinary cases its effect would be to do away with the entire of the complicated machinery then necessary, while, in cases which were not altogether simple, it would do away with much of that machinery. He believed, that if the measure were adopted, it would be attended with all the advantages that had been previously proposed, and with some peculiarly its own, amongst which was this, that it stated the title according to its real truth, and entirely avoided fictions. It had been supposed that there were provisions in the Bill which introduced that kind of registry of assurances to which objection had been made. That argument was, however, founded on a misconception. He trusted that the House would see that the opportunity so long desired then presented itself of simplifying the title to real estates, and of relieving landed proprietors from that great and constant source of expense to which its transfer was subject. In the evidence taken by the Encumbered Estates Commissioners, a unanimous opinion was expressed that the operation of the Encumbered Estates Act in Ireland had been attended by a vast augmentation in the value of property, and that it was desirable to extend many of the same facilities to this country. If the House should think fit to pass this Bill, it would be a great satisfaction to those who had introduced it. There had been many labourers in that field of reform, so that no party could exclusively lay claim to the laurels of passing the Bill. Many eminent and learned men, both in and out of Parliament, had contributed to add to a due knowledge of the subject. Several ingenious plans had been propounded before the Royal Commission of 1854, and the Commissioners themselves had given most valuable assistance to the improvement of the law. His hon. and learned Friend opposite (Sir H. Cairns) had largely contributed to the same end. None of these authorities had, however, claimed to have arrived at the best solution of the difficulty, and he could not but think, that if they could disengage their minds from their natural bias in favour

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  of their own plans, they would perceive that the present measure was preferable to any that had been yet proposed. At all events, the Bill, having been proposed by the Lord Chancellor in the other House, had undergone full inquiry before a Select Committee, composed of landowners, who understood what was wanted as well as any lawyers, and some of the most eminent legal Members of the House of Peers. A majority of that Committee were of opinion that the plan now proposed promised better than that recommended by the Commissioners. It was not alone the landed interest that would be benefited by the passing of this measure, because whatever simplified the commerce in land, and gave additional safety and security to the possessors of landed property, must tend to the stability of all property, and every interest in the country. He would only say, in conclusion, that it would he a great satisfaction to the Government if they were enabled to settle this important question during the present Session.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read the second time."
  SIR HUGH CAIRNSsaid, he was so anxious to see the first step taken for the amendment of the law of real property, and he entertained so lively a recollection of the candid assistance which he received from the noble and learned Lord now on the Woolsack when he, as Solicitor General, introduced a measure on the subject, that he should be willing to place in abeyance his own judgment in regard to the details of the present measure. In making, therefore, a few observations, he trusted his hon. and learned Friend would accept them in the spirit in which they were offered, because, although he differed in regard to one or two of the principles on which the Bill was framed, he should be sorry to give any opposition to the second reading, or to offer any delay or obstruction to the progress of the Bill. he would then submit to the House and the Government the two principal objections he had to urge to the measure. Upon one point he had already been anticipated by the hon. and learned Solicitor General, who felt he had to deal with the difficulty that the Bill was in one respect in direct antagonism to the Royal Commission, of which the right, hon. Gentleman in the chair was one of the most prominent members. That Commission, which reported in 1854, considered the question of a registry of assurances, which was sometimes called a registry of
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  deeds. They pointed out that great and insurmountable objections were felt to any system for the registration of deeds. His hon. and learned Friend was so conscious that public opinion was opposed to such a plan, that he had endeavoured to show that the Bill did not contain a system of registration of deeds. He would, however, defy any one, possessing even a hundred-fold the ingenuity of his hon. and learned Friend, to satisfy any man of plain understanding that there was no registration of deeds in the Bill. He agreed with the principle of the Bill up to the first registration of indefeasible titles. The model of the Irish Act had been followed up to that point, and no better plan could be devised. But what was to happen afterwards? Everything affecting the land—wills, mortgages, settlements, sales, and deposits—was to be put on the register; but what was to be done with all the instruments by which the property was thus affected? They were all to be sent to the registrar, cither put into a printed form by the parties, or, if not, by order of the registrar at their expense, and the registrar was to keep them. Thus they got publicity; everybody, as far as the registration went, was obliged to make the dealings with the land public. That was his first objection to the plan, and it was a serious objection. The second point was even more serious. What was the registrar to do with the deeds when he got them? The hon. and learned Gentleman had spoken with some complacency of the certificate of the title. That certificate was to be a synopsis of the title, but bow was the synopsis to be prepared? The registrar himself was to prepare the précis, or summary of the title, and put it on the register. The question then naturally arose whether what the registrar was empowered and directed to do was to be conclusive as to the effect of the deed on the title or not? He did not know to which alternative he looked with most alarm. If it was conclusive, it must regulate to all time the rights of parties who had not been before him, and had had no opportunity of being heard. If it was not conclusive, which he understood was the alternative they were to regard as practically the effect of the measure, they had gained nothing whatever. They had gained simply a certificate of title, which would still impose on every one who accepted it the duty of consulting the original deeds to get at the first title. And that

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  was not all. The Bill declared that sill deeds should be registered. He looked with some curiosity and anxiety to know what would be the consequence of that injunction not being obeyed. The House would be surprised to learn, that, as he read the Bill, there was no provision whatever as to what the consequences were to be, one way or other, of the non-registration of the deeds.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, that in the case of a purchaser such a deed would be as if it had not been executed, but it would be binding as between the parties if the lands were not sold.
  SIR HUGH CAIRNSsaid, that if so, it ought to be made to appear by the Bill that an unregistered deed was to be operative against those who had notice of it, and inoperative against those who had no notice of it. In every system of registration of deeds all these matters were to be provided for; and till they were it was impossible to understand the hearing or effect of any system. He would say no more on that point than that all the provisions of the Bill were in direct antagonism to the Report of the Commission. It would require very much more argument and consideration than the subject had yet received to convince the House that the Report of a Commission on which they had once acted was entirely misconceived, and that in place of that which it recommended they were to have, not only a registration, but a most imperfect registration of deeds. His objections were not made to oppose the second reading of the Bill; but he hoped the Government would consent to large amendments on the next stage. It was a trite observation that a bad system well administered might be preferable to a good system badly administered. And his next objection was, that whether the proposed system proved bad or good depended entirely on the officers by whom it was administered. What did the Bill say on that point? It proposed to appoint a registrar, who was to be a barrister of a certain number of years' standing. He would have brought before him questions of the greatest difficulty, involving the nicest points of equity that could ever be presented to a Court to decide. Yet, on looking at the clauses, he found that the registrar himself was to be the sole judge, decider, and arbiter as to whether he was to adjudicate on anything or not. He might say he would decide all the questions before him, or he might resolve
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  to decide nothing, and refer all to the Court of Chancery. There was nothing in the Bill defining what matters he should decide. Whoever the holder of the office might be, it was probable he would take good care not to decide anything for himself. He might, certainly, be some sanguine young man who would "rush in" where others would scarce venture "to tread." But the House ought to ask this question,—If the registrar was competent to decide those intricate questions at all, why should it not be made his absolute duty to decide them? If he was not competent to decide any of them, why was he allowed to decide one. On the other hand, as he was to have the option of referring any case to another Court, they might assume he might not be competent to decide them himself. Then why should he be trusted to decide any case at all? That was a point on which the House would require to be satisfied, because it went to the working of the Bill. Nothing could bring greater discredit on an amendment of the law than that they should rashly and inconsiderately appoint an officer of that kind kind, who would not be a judge, with all the responsibility, experience, learning, and weight of authority a judge ought to have. He wished to go one step further, and to ask the House to consider this point also. Suppose the registrar said, as he ventured to think he would say in a majority of cases, "I will not decide this difficult question myself. I will send it to the Court of Chancery, and leave the Court of Chancery to decide." Was that a species of business which could be transacted by the Court of Chancery? The Equity Judges had their hands perfectly full of business. They certainly had no leisure time to sit down and peruse abstracts of title; and their business as Judges was very different in its character and details from the business of one who, without any assistance, sat down to investigate a title and to pronounce upon it. He therefore ventured to think there would be a difficulty in want of time, and a difficulty in throwing upon the Equity Judges business which was foreign to their habits and training. But then he observed a clause under which an indefinite number of chief clerks might be appointed, and he suspected that subordinate officers would be appointed to work out the business created by the Bill. If anything worse could be de-

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  vised than giving the registrar the absolute right to decide important questions, it was accompanying it with a power for the registrar to hand over those cases to the Court of Chancery, there to be disposed of by the chief clerks or other subordinate officers. The only chance of presenting a measure which would work well, and induce owners of land to bring in their titles to he examined, was to appoint some person who would command respect and confidence, and he did not believe that the object could be attained by the appointment of any one of less weight, experience, and authority than a judge of the land. Ireland was taken as an exemplar, and in the case of the Landed Estates Court the House had most wisely come to the conclusion to appoint persons with the rank and responsibility of judges. He thought it would be very false economy to appoint a person registrar at a salary of £2,500 a year who would not command the power and authority which attached to the holders of judicial office. The multiplication of judges was said to be an evil, but a far greater evil was the multiplication of a species of officer, of whom there were too many already, sometimes called registrars and sometimes called commissioners, with powers which very closely resembled the powers of judges, without their weight and responsibility. He would not say a word upon the details of the Bill, but he trusted the Government would consider the points to which he had referred more fully than they had yet done. It was evident that there were matters in the Bill which could not be satisfactorily discussed in Committee of the Whole House, and he trusted the Government would consent, therefore, to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. He should be glad to see that course taken, not from any hostility to the Bill, or from any wish to delay it, but from an honest and anxious desire, if time would permit, to pass it into law in the present Session, after it had received the Amendments and alterations which it would receive in Select Committee. He was not deterred from advocating that course by the statement that the Bill had already been before a Select Committee of the other House, because he believed attention had there been principally bestowed upon abstract principles, and not upon the details of the measure. But whether that were so or not, the House of Commons had its own duty to perform, and he thought they would be careful to
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  perform it; more especially when they found that a portion of the Bill was in opposition to the Report of the Commissioners, and to what only a few years ago that House thought fit to approve.
  MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, he was perfectly prepared to consider the Bill either in a Select Committee, or in Committee of the Whole House, and he retained the opinion which he expressed some years ago, that the greatest of all misfortunes would be to pass a bad measure, because a bad measure, by its certain failure, would do more harm than good. They also had the authority of Lord West-bury, that an imperfect measure would be more mischievous than useful, and that by a combination of skill and courage they should deal with an intolerable evil undeterred by any superstitious terror of the alterations which might be required. In the words of Pope—
  "Thus Bethel spoke, who always speaks his thought,
  "And always thinks the very thing he ought."
  He had been a member of the Committee, and also the Commission referred to, and he could assure the House that the subject had been fully considered in all its bearings. As a landlord and a Chancery lawyer, he had had occasion to consider the subject before he was on the Commission, and therefore it was no new subject to him. Although he signed the Report, agreeing as he did with most of the recommendations, he differed from the Commissioners on four matters, in reference to three of which he ventured to sign a postscript to the Report, and those three matters had been under discussion this evening. In that postscript he stated that in his opinion there should be a land tribunal of high judicial authority, and not a mere registry office. The hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down (Sir Hugh Cairns), in his Bill of 1859, did provide a laud tribunal, but he also proposed a registry office, and in that he differed from him. The next point on which he differed from the Commissioners was in reference to land debentures, such as the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University had since proposed, and which he trusted he should yet see established. The third matter on which he differed from the Commissioners was really important. It was with regard to caveats and subordinate registries. The Commissioners wished to impart to the land the utmost amount of transferability that was

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  consistent with registered interests, and they also wished to give protection to un-; registered interests. It was exceedingly difficult to reconcile those objects with each other. Mr. Cookson, who was examined before the Commission, and who was afterwards a member of the Commission, proposed a system of caveats which was adopted by the Commission. He (Mr. V. Scully) did not approve of that part of the scheme. He thought, however, that official trustees might be appointed with advantage. Thus it might easily be provided, that the court should have power to enter, along with the registered owner, the name of one of its officers, as a precaution against undue transfer; or the court might have power to enter a special caveat, to be limited to particular facts, on their being proved. The registering of several persons as official trustees would be an almost perfect protection in the majority of cases. He thought it possible to devise a Bill which would give immediate and safe transferability, without at all contravening the Report of August, 1853, or adopting any system for the registration of assurances. He wished to see a state of law by which the owner in fee should be able to transfer his title without more delay than was now experienced in transferring stock, and with no more proportionate expense. He hoped that whatever alterations in the details might be found necessary, the principle of this Bill would be adopted by the House, and when adopted its benefits would be extended to Ireland as well as to England.
  SIR FITZROY KELLYsaid, he was far from intending to oppose the Second Reading of the Bill, which related to matters of deep interest to all who were concerned in land. The subject was also one which had long been an object of attention to lawyers and others who took an interest in the law of landed property, and he rejoiced to see—if, indeed, they might be permitted to say they could see—a hope that through the introduction of this Bill, at least a step might be taken towards attaining the object in view. But there were so many objections to the Bill, that until it had undergone the revision of a Select Committee, or at least until it had been considered and thoroughly investigated in all its parts by a Committee of the Whole House, it would be impossible he could assent even to the substance of the measure. In order to appreciate the provisions of this Bill, or, indeed, accurately
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  to understand them, it was necessary to consider what was the great object they had in view in a measure of this kind; and that object, shortly and simply stated, he took to be this: —To enable any one possessed of land in fee simple or by any other freehold tenure, when once he had established his title to that land, to obtain a certificate from some competent authority which should give to him an indefeasible title to that land, and which should record that title, so that it might protect and secure the conveyance of that land in all time to come. As far as the provisions of the Bill were at all calculated to effect that object he entirely approved them; but, at the same time, he found in it much which raised in his mind considerable doubts as to the efficiency of the measure. In order to secure an indefeasible title to land, that title must, in the first instance, be submitted to some tribunal of undoubted competence; some authority whose certificate would give confidence not only to the owners but to all who might have occasion to deal with the land. But, instead of the title being referred to such an authority, it was to be referred to a registrar, an officer to be created under the Bill, and with regard to whom it would be impossible to say whether his certificate was to be considered final or of no effect whatever. But if in the first instance the title were to be submitted to a competent tribunal—whether that tribunal should be established under the Bill, or whether it was to be the Court of Chancery—and no Bill ought to pass that House which would not provide such a tribunal—then, upon the tribunal being satisfied that the title was such as the Court of Chancery would compel an unwilling purchaser to adopt, that title might safely be pronounced indefeasible, and a certificate might be granted which would attach to the land, and constitute, as long as the land remained, a simple and indefeasible security All the owner would have to do in any dealings with the land would be to produce that certificate, identify it with the land, and then the land might be transferred as simply as stock. Looking to the machinery of the Bill, it appeared to him radically (but he hoped not incurably) defective, inasmuch as it totally rejected the system of caveats. Without the introduction of a system of caveats—without providing that any person who had an interest in the land, or a charge upon it, should have power to enter a caveat, and

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  when the title to the land should have been established, should be bound to enter a caveat, if a charge existed, to protect that charge—the Bill would not work. Under such a system the land could not be conveyed away without the concurrence of those who had entered caveats; but if once that concurrence was obtained, the transfer would be complete. If the Bill, as far as it related to title to land in fee simple, could be so amended in Committee as to carry into effect the objects which he had explained, it would, if it went no further, confer a great benefit on the country. It was in the hope that the Bill would be so amended that he consented to the second reading. But when he came to the second part of the Bill he confessed to a feeling of great disappointment. It was perfectly impossible not to see that the provisions for the registration of conveyances clogged and encumbered what would be otherwise salutary and beneficial regulations. Every one who had a charge or encumbrance on the land was bound to register it. But if all the deeds that affected the title were to be registered, of what avail was the Bill in conferring a title. For this difficulty arose — either that the registration was perfectly useless, and that every one who had dealings with the land must satisfy himself that all the deeds taken together constituted a sufficient title, or he must rely upon the certificate of the registrar, and then advance his money. But the Bill did not provide, or pretend to provide, that the certificate of that officer should be conclusive. [The SOLICITOR GENERAL: Yes it does, distinctly.] Then it was intended to confer upon that officer a power so extraordinary that the House of Commons could never consent to accept the Bill. Was it to be pretended that a number of deeds, constituting a title which might perplex even the most able lawyer— which, when before a court of law, the judges themselves might differ about—was it to be supposed that questions of such a nature should be left to the absolute decision of a registrar appointed at a salary of £2,000 or £2,500 a year? He trusted that when they went into Committee, his hon. and learned Friend would so amend the Bill as to present the question simply and distinctly how the owners of an estate in fee might establish a title, and obtain a certificate that would stamp indefeasibility upon the property. If the Bill went no further, its effect upon the landed property
  254
  of the country would be to add considerably to its pecuniary value. Of all the schemes and plans bearing on the question which had been submitted to either House of Parliament during the last twenty or thirty years, and had undergone the consideration of Committees or Commissions, he must say that he had never seen any so complicated and yet so unsatisfactory and inefficient in all its material features as the Bill his hon. and learned Friend had laid upon the table. But, if it was possible to introduce clauses making the measure subsidiary to the great object of establishing and conferring an indefeasible title to land, to the Bill in that shape he would give his support.
  MR. MALINSsaid, he had always been a strenuous advocate for facilitating the transfer of land, and any practical measure introduced with that object would command his support. But he by no means agreed in opinion with his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor, who believed that land could be made as easily transferable as stock, ships, or shares in public companies. If the Bill were not to become a dead letter, its operation must be compulsory; for it seemed to him irrational that patches here and there should be registered, while the great bulk of the land remained in its present condition. The Bill provided for the appointment of a single registrar, and an indefinite number of assistant registrars or clerks. But what were all the actions or Chancery suits in England compared to the number of titles which would have to be registered? Let any one take a walk from Oxford Street to Whitechapel, and see how many titles he would pass on the way. The great bulk of the landed property was either settled or else encumbered. In neither case could there well be a register of plain fee-simple titles. It was said that a man ought never to prophesy upon a subject with which he was not well acquainted, hut four years ago he ventured to prophesy, with regard to the Irish Landed Estates Court, that if its powers to grant declarations of title were not compulsory, they would be practically useless. He had received a letter from a gentleman, stating that since November,] 858, but nineteen declarations of title were made by that Court, and one refused. Though the Bill would entail considerable expense in its working, he would not oppose its further progress, but he felt the same objection to it that he had done to

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  the Bill proposed in 1859 by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Belfast. Society was divided into two classes— those who had good titles, and those who had not. Any man with a good title would scarcely incur the trouble and expense of submitting it to a registrar, with the chance of having a slur cast upon it in the course of the investigation. Any one, on the other hand, conscious of not having a good title, would hardly submit his deeds to inspection. Under a voluntary system, therefore, what titles remained to be registered? The Bill was based upon a theory which, he believed, could not be carried into practical effect, and he doubted whether it was worth while to incur the expense necessarily involved in so unpromising an experiment. There were, undoubtedly, evils connected with the transfer of land which ought to be remedied, but those evils could not be satisfactorily dealt with otherwise than by a general measure embracing all the land of the country. It was true that in some of the colonies a simple system was in force; but it must be remembered that the colonies began with new titles, while the land in this country was complicated with many and various charges and trusts. At the same time, although he could not think that this Bill would meet the difficulties which did exist, if the majority of the House should think it was worth while to make the experiment, he should offer no opposition. He could not see how, under this Bill, the particular parcels of land that were dealt with could be identified; and unless registration were compulsory, the system could not work. Land could not be dealt with in the same way as stock or shares, so long as there was equitable as well as legal ownership. The elements of real and personal property were essentially different; and in his opinion the alienation of land must always remain in England a matter of difficulty, unless the circumstances of the country greatly altered. There was a great disposition, especially in the higher branches of the profession, to simplify the law; and to a great extent the transfer of the laud had been simplified. Evils attending the transfer of land no doubt existed; but they had in fact been greatly exaggerated. He (Mr. Malins) did not believe in the representations which were made about the repeated investigations of title. Such as the evils were, however, he should be glad to see them remedied; but he believed
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  they would be just as great after the Bill had passed as before. He did not think the Bill was worthy of any support; but if his hon. and learned Friend (the Solicitor General), to whose opinion in the matter he would defer as readily as to that of any man, had really satisfied himself that the Bill would be a practical working measure, he would rather see the expense which the measure would occasion incurred than that the experiment should not be tried; and when its failure was demonstrated, it would be withdrawn. He would go further, and say that there was even some hope that the Bill might be the beginning of something which might result in a better measure. Still he agreed with the hon. and learned Member for Belfast, that the subject was not one that could be satisfactorily dealt with, by a Committee of the Whole House. Looking at the period of the Session, it would perhaps be impossible to get Members upon a Select Committee who could devote their attention to the subject at this time; but he thought that even at the expense of postponing any legislation for another year, it would be desirable to refer the subject to a Select Committee. However, he repeated that he had no intention of opposing the Bill if the House should think fit to pass it at once.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that the views of his hon. and learned Friend who had just sat down were, to say the least, rather singular. At the same time, there was no Member of the House whose opinion was better entitled to attention than that of his hon. and learned Friend on such a subject. He (the Attorney General) congratulated himself that in differing from his hon. and learned Friend he was in agreement with preceding speakers. Little or no reference had been made, before the last speech, to the evils which it was proposed by the Bill to remedy. His hon. and learned Friend had spoken lightly of those evils; but in that view the community at large did not agree. Although the details of the measure necessarily involved a considerable degree of technicality, the people of this country, likely to be affected by it as owners or lessees of land, had long been of opinion that the expense, the delay, the uncertainty attending the dealings with land, amounted to a great practical evil, which required removal, Then, was the plan propounded likely to effect a remedy for the evil, either complete, or as nearly complete

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  as the nature of things permitted? He did not say that the measure was perfect, but he believed it was as well devised as persons of competent skill and judgment had been able to frame it under the circumstances. The hon. and learned Member for Wallingford, differing from the hon. Members who had preceded him, had expressed an opinion adverse to any measure of the kind which was optional and not compulsory. Not denying the existence of these evils, he thought, that not being made compulsory, the measure would be little resorted to, and that the expense of the machinery which it would set in motion would be thrown away. If that should prove to be the case, why, no very great amount of expense would be cast upon the country, because the staff, to commence with, would be neither numerous nor costly. If his view should turn out to be correct, and the measure should not prove acceptable to landowners, and the officers should be unemployed, people would soon say, "The scheme has failed, and the sooner we put an end to the expense the better." One branch of the hon. and learned Member's prophecy was fatal to the other. He thought the court would not be used, and he thought it would be a very great expense to the country. But if it were not used, it could not be a very great expense. But he (the Attorney General) dissented from the opinion, that, because not compulsory, the court would not be resorted to. There had long been growing up a preference for registered titles. The Encumbered Estates Act for Ireland, the principle of which had lately been extended to unencumbered estates in that country, although voluntary in its operation, had been very largely used. Among those who went into the market to purchase land, it would be found by experience that a preference for registered titles gradually arose; and as lands with such titles fetched a higher price, or admitted, at least, of easier transfer, even those who were at first adverse to registration came at length to avail themselves of it. The Bill introduced by the hon. and learned Member for Belfast in 1859 was voluntary, like the present measure. He had made no estimate of the cost of working this measure; but it would only require, at the outset at least, one registrar and one or two clerks to be appointed, and would be far more economical than the scheme of 1859. The measure had been subjected to much criti-
  258
  cism, and it was only fair that its advantages should be properly made known. All who had spoken on the subject, with the exception of the hon. and learned Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins), agreed that it was desirable to have a Parliamentary or an assured title, which should be unimpeachable from a certain day. The cardinal difference between this Bill, and that of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Belfast (Sir Hugh Cairns) in 1859, was, that the former proposed that the register should show the true title, while the latter only provided for the registration of a mere formal and dry title. At the same time, exception was taken to the measure, that it would be a registration of assurances, and that that would not be submitted to by the landowners of England. But many of them had already submitted to it, the Bill having originated in the other House of Parliament, and having been considered and approved, not only by the Law Lords, but by other Peers, who, from their wealth and position, were eminently entitled to speak for the landed interest. Objection was also made to that portion of the Bill which required that all instruments executed at the time of register should be produced, and copies lodged with the registrar. In his (the Attorney General's) view, the leaving of authentic evidence with the registrar of the execution of deeds was essential. It was not sufficient to register the mere description of the deeds, but it would be most important that the title should be put beyond dispute by the deposit of verified copies of the deeds themselves. It might, in some cases, become the duty of the registrar to make reference to the deed itself, instead of to a mere description. Moreover, by such a deposit of copies they guarded against the inconveniences resulting from a loss of the originals. It frequently happened, that when persons were collaterally interested in property, and litigation was in progress, it was most difficult for certain parties to the litigation to obtain a copy of some fundamental deed. That inconvenience would undoubtedly be obviated by the lodging of an official copy with the registrar. An objection had also been made to the officer by whom the investigation of the title was to be made before it was put upon the register. On that point a considerable difference existed between the present Bill and that of 1859. The latter proposed to constitute a court, presided over by two Com-

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  missioners, together with assistants; but the present Bill contained the simpler and far less costly arrangement of appointing a single registrar. The House would find that the title was, in the first instance, to be examined by the registrar; and if any question of doubt or debate arose, the matter might be referred to any judge of the Court of Chancery whom the Lord Chancellor might appoint. Except, therefore, that the officer was to be called a registrar, and that he was not to have so large a salary as a judge, he saw no practical difference between him and a judge, nor any reason to doubt that, subject to the appeal from his decision, a competent person might be very well obtained to fill this office. The objections made by the hon. and learned Member for Suffolk did not go to the entire rejection of the measure; but his hon. and learned Friend was somewhat severe in his objections, and hardly consistent. His hon. and learned Friend acknowledged that it would be desirable to obtain a Parliamentary title, but contended that this Bill contained no provision for the title obtained under this Bill being an indefeasible or assured title. A reference to the Bill itself would, he thought, dispose of that objection. But then, his hon. and learned Friend, changing his ground, complained that an instrument of such binding and conclusive efficacy should be allowed to proceed from the hand of the registrar. The one objection seemed to him a little inconsistent with the other. He could not but join in the hope that the Bill, having already received the able and careful consideration of a Select Committee of the other House, might be discussed, and he would even say critically examined, by hon. Members in Committee of the whole House; but that its passing during the present Session might not be imperilled by referring the measure to another Select Committee.
  MR. ROLTsaid, he did not rise to oppose the second reading of the Bill, but he was anxious to add his voice to that of his hon. and learned Friend in favour of referring it to a Select Committee. It was impossible to offer an objection to the second reading of a Bill brought in by the Government, the principle of which had been recommended by a Royal Commission appointed on the suggestion of a Committee of the House of Commons.
  An hon. MEMBER here moved that the House be counted; but notice being taken that 40 hon. Members were present—
  MR. ROLTsaid, that the thinness of the attendance was a proof that the measure was not receiving the attention that its importance deserved. In consenting to the second reading, he desired to affirm no more than the desirableness of establishing a registry of titles. He was, however, anxious that the Government should refer the Bill to a Select Committee, because the form, manner, and details of the Bill could not be properly discussed in Committee of the Whole House, and because, even if they could, the discussion, to be effectual, would occupy a much longer time than before a Select Committee. A sufficient reason for referring the Bill to a Select Committee was, that its provisions widely differed from the recommendations of the Royal Commission. His hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General could not but feel, that in defending the measure he had been arguing against the Report of the Royal Commission, which had the advantage of the assistance of the Speaker and two or three members of the present Government or individuals connected with it. Except in regard to the Lord Chancellor, he had not yet heard from any of the Commissioners that they had altered the opinion they expressed in their Report. The Commissioners had, in substance, pronounced a registry of assurances to be impracticable; and one of the main differences between the Bill and the Report of the Commissioners was, that the measure was, in effect, a registry of assurances. The Solicitor General had argued that it was not, but the Attorney General had justified it because it was.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALdenied that he admitted it to be a registry of assurances.
  MR. ROLTsaid, however that might be, the Bill was, nevertheless, both a registry of titles and a registry of assurances. That it was the latter was evident from the 79th clause, though nobody seriously insisted on establishing a registry of assurances, which was condemned by the Committee which sat in 1853, as well as by the Report of the Commission. He earnestly trusted that the Bill would be sent to a Select Committee. The more it approximated to the Report of the Commissioners, the greater probability there would be of its being acted on and becoming a practical and useful measure.
  SIR FRANCIS GOLDSMIDsaid, there were two points in the Bill that would require very serious consideration.

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  The one was with reference to the way in which an indefeasible title might be obtained. Certain notices and advertisements were to be given to the occupier of the land, but none to the owner of the adjoining land. Unless that were provided for, when an estate was sold a slice might be taken off the adjoining estate without the owner thereof knowing anything about it. The other point was that nowhere in the Bill was it stated what was to be the effect of a non-registration of deeds. These were two points that would require to be fully considered in Committee.
  MR. DUNLOPsaid, that in Scotland, where a system of registration had existed for 200 years, and where great value was attached to the additional security it gave, much surprise was felt at the difficulty which was experienced in introducing that system into England. He believed that the advantages of the present Bill would be so great that in a short time all the prejudice against it would be removed.
  Bill read 2°, and committed for Monday, 16th June.

DECLARATION OF TITLE BILL.

  [BILL NO. 102.] SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. ROLT, in moving the second reading of this Bill, stated, that its object was to enable every landowner having a good title to obtain a judicial declaration that his title was good and indefeasible. The declaration of indefeasibility of title was by no means necessarily connected with a registry of title, and registration of title might be very useful without any declaration that it was indefeasible. When a person had obtained judicial declaration of title under the Bill now before the House, he might enter it upon the register under the Government Bill which had just been read a second time, or he might abstain from so registering it, at his discretion. If he wished to sell his land without registration, he had only to show that from the time of his declaration of title till the proposed sale nothing had been done affecting the title to the property. It was only after the lapse of a long time that he would need another judicial declaration o1 title. Every person who claimed to be an owner in fee-simple might apply for a judicial declaration, and this Bill would effect that object through the instrumentality o the Court of Chancery, It was not proposed
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  therefore to create any new court, and it would, in the first instance at all events, entail no expense upon the country. It was introduced as an experiment; and if that experiment should be found to work successfully, a separate court might afterwards be formed, in case such a step was found expedient, for the purpose of extending its advantages. The mode in which the abject of the Bill would be attained was as follows:—The person seeking to obtain a judicial declaration of title would make an application by petition to the Court of Chancery, in which he would state the title under which he held the property. If the Court, assuming his story to be true, came to the conclusion that a good title was shown, it would make an order for an investigation of the title. If upon his own showing there was no title, there would be no order. If upon investigation no title was proved, his petition would be dismissed. But if a title were established, the Court would make an order that a declaration should be made upon a future day, at least six months being given for the admission of objections. If upon the day fixed by that order no objector should appear, the Court would give orders for the issue of advertisements, and for the serving of notice of the order upon every person who in the opinion of the Court ought to be served. If objectors came in and sustained their objections, the order for a declaration previously made would be set aside; hut if the objections failed, the order would be made absolute, and the applicant would be declared absolutely entitled. There would be liberty to appeal from the Vice-Chancellor to the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords. When an absolute declaration was made, the applicant might obtain one certificate or several certificates of title, as he preferred. The declaration of title would be conclusive in favour of any purchaser for value from the person whose title had thus been declared. The Bill would entail no expense upon the country, and this House and the country were greatly indebted to the noble and learned Lord (Lord Cranworth), who had prepared it with great consideration, and carried it through the other House. He understood that the Government did not intend to object to the second reading; but they proposed to embody the Bill with that which had just been discussed by the House. To this he should greatly object; he thought the Bill should be allowed to stand by itself;

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  and he doubted not that it would be found a safe and valuable addition to legislation on a subject in reference to which every attempt at change must, at the best, be experimental.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALintimated that he bad no objection to the Motion, stating that there was no difference in substance between the present measure and one introduced by the Lord Chancellor. He took the opportunity of adverting to a suggestion made in reference to the Bill last under consideration, and which applied likewise to the present Bill —namely, that it should be referred to a Select Committee. He was quite sure that that suggestion was made bonâ fide, without any view to obstruct the passing of the Bill; but his present impression was that the adoption of the measure in the existing Session was not likely to be attained by the course recommended. It was often convenient to send measures of inferior moment to a Select Committee; but with regard to a Bill dealing with a question of such great and general importance as that under consideration, a question which had been before the public for a series of years, and upon which it was desirable to legislate during the Session, he thought a Committee of the whole House would be much the more fitting tribunal. His hon. and learned Friends, he had no doubt, would feel it their bounden duty to give that close attendance upon a Select Committee which would be requisite, though great sacrifices would thereby be entailed upon them; but, all things considered, he believed the gravity and importance of the subject would be better consulted by considering the Bill in Committee of the Whole House.
  SIR HUGH CAIRNSsaid, the Bill was an admirable one; the only point in which it failed was in making the Court of Chancery the medium through which the declaration of title was to be obtained. The Judges of the court would certainly not be able to undertake the duty; and if it were left to conveyancers employed by them, the weight attaching to the authority of the court would no longer exist. Before the next stage of the Bill, he hoped the Government would reconsider their decision in reference to a Select Committee. Only one or two of the principal points had yet been pointed out, but at the proper time he would be able to show that in every clause of the Bill there was ample ground for referring it to a Select Com-
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  mittee, and to a Select Committee alone. His hon. and learned Friend had spoken of the gravity and importance of the subject requiring it to be discussed in a Select Committee; but not an hour previously, at the very crisis of the debate on this Bill, it was only by the exertions of the hon. Member for Lewes (Mr. Brand), whose energy was worthy of all praise, that the exact number of Members requisite to constitute a House could be brought together, and two-thirds of those had not heard any part of the previous discussion. He did not believe that the consideration of the Bill in Committee of the Whole House would save any time; on the contrary, he felt disposed to think that it would take up more days if that course were followed than it would if it were sent to a Select Committee.
  MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, the Bill was not fairly open to many of the objections made. It was not intended for the register of assurances, nor yet for the registration of titles. It was simply a Bill constituting the Court of Chancery the Encumbered Estates Court for England; though seeing that three judges were required to do the work in Ireland, at least a dozen Lord Chancellors would be requisite in England. Some of the clauses were borrowed from the Bill which he himself brought in, and which was read a second time in 1853.
  Bill read 2°, and committed for Monday 16th June.

SECURITY OF PURCHASERS BILL.

  [BILL NO. 103.] SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. ROLTsaid, he rose to move the second reading of the Bill. Its object might be shortly stated. It enabled evidence of the clear and indefeasible title of any landowner to be perpetuated without a register. The Bill proposed that any owner who had obtained a declaration of title should be at liberty to endorse his purchase deed on the certificate of title, and so every succeeding purchaser would be entitled to endorse his title on the conveyance of his grantor, and thus by a series of endorsements every dealing with the land would be shown. The Bill also provided that no deed not memorialized should be of any validity against a purchaser for value. The only difficulty would be as to the means of getting access to the deeds for the purpose of endorsing the memorial

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  upon them; but that was a question of detail that might he considered in Committee. He trusted the Government would not oppose the second reading of the Bill.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he thought it quite obvious that the Bill could not have concurrent operation with the Government Bill; but as there would be ample opportunity of considering its provisions at a future stage, he did not intend to oppose the second reading.
  Bill read 2°, and committed for Monday, 16th June.

REAL PROPERTY (TITLE OF PURCHASERS) BILL.

  ["BILL NO. 104.] SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, its object was to extend the Statute of Limitations, and to shorten the time within which an absolute title would grow up to thirty years. It appeared to him, that if a tenant for life of an estate sold it for a valuable consideration, the purchaser would, under the Bill, shut out the reversioner after thirty years. As, however, the measure came down from the other House on the high authority of Lord St. Leonards, he had consented to move the second reading.
  SIR HUGH CAIRNSsaid, he believed the effect of the measure would be to enable a tenant for life to cut off the rights of the tenant in remainder, and put the money he received for the injury in his pocket. If the House thought that a desirable object, it would pass the present Bill, but not otherwise.
  Bill read 2°, and committed for Monday, 16th June.

ASSURANCES REGISTRATION (IRELAND) BILL.

  [BILL NO. 91.] SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, the Bill applied exclusively to Ireland, where, since the reign of Queen Anne, a general registry had been kept of all deeds of assurance relating to landed property. Some inconveniences mid abuses had grown up under the existing statute on the subject, and they had to consider the proper mode of providing a remedy for them. In some points the statute was almost a dead letter, and the mode of registry under it also depended a great deal on formalities. The
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  registry was established by a statute of Queen Anne in 1707, which authorized the registration by memorials of all deeds relating to land and wills, and declared unregistered deeds void as against purchasers for value, and mortgagees or creditors by judgment or recognizance. It did not, however, provide for the equitable effect of notice; but the Courts of Equity held that notice of the existence of an unregistered deed was equivalent to registration. A number of formalities was also required, and a non-compliance with any one of these rendered the registration a nullity. That Act was practically not altered until the 9th of George IV., when a very useful Act was passed; but that Act was repealed by a statute of William IV., passed in 1832. The Act of William IV. did not mend any of the defects of the Act of Queen Anne, but unintentionally led to the growth of a large crop of evils in the Irish register. It attempted to provide in great detail for the keeping of a variety of books, duplicates, and digests, but utterly failed; so that the consolidated index of names was not commenced since 1849, and the consolidated index of lands was not commenced since 1839, more than twenty years ago. To reduce order out of such confusion an Act was passed in 1850, and alterations and improvements were proposed, which were partly adhered to in the Bill before the House. The Bill of 1850 was to come into operation after maps, founded on the Ordnance survey, had been prepared, the lands indexed, and three months' notice given by the Lords of the Treasury. In point of fact, it was never brought into operation, and remained a dead letter. A representation was made to the Government by the Law Society of Dublin, as to the inconvenience and errors in the registry office, and the delay which took place in making the necessary searches for documents, and that led to a Motion in 1860, on the part of the hon. Baronet the Member for the city of Dublin (Sir E. Grogan), and afterwards to the appointment of an eminent lawyer, Mr. Lane, a Queen's Counsel at the Irish bar, to make inquiry. A more limited inquiry was also made by Colonel Leach, of the Ordnance Survey; and the reports of those eminent men concurred in affirming the existence of great evils, and in suggesting the remedies which it was desirable to adopt. Mr. Lane pointed out the mischievous consequences of the statute of Anne, making the validity of memorials

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  dependent on thirteen conditions, and quoted the opinion of the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench in Ireland in favour of some legislation being absolutely necessary. Mr. Lane observed—
  "The importance of the communication made by the Chief Justice could scarcely be overrated, when it was known that out of 34,000 memorials, not taken consecutively, 1,100 were open to objection, and in an earlier part of the registry no error or omission which could be made, had not been made to render the registration nugatory."
  It was proposed by the Bill to declare valid, notwithstanding formal defects, all memorials hitherto registered except those which had been acted upon either judicially or privately as being invalid, to repeal all Acts which required these formal requisites, to substitute the execution of deeds with one attesting witness, and to leave all other matters to be governed by general orders of the Landed Estates Court, under the superintendence of which in future the registry would be kept. The next important point was connected with the principles upon which the registry was to be kept. It was the original intention of the statute of Queen Anne, and of all legislation upon the subject, that nothing should be registered except with reference to some particular lands which were bound or affected by the instrument. But the practice of registering deeds, which did not refer to particular lands, obtained, and it became necessary to keep a names-index without any reference to lands, and a lands-index which might or might not correspond accurately with the names-index. The consequence was that both indexes had to be searched, in some cases as far back as 100 years, and in twenty or thirty names, to see whether any memorial had been registered which affected the title. There was abundance of evidence to show that searches occupied a great deal of time and were very costly. This was partly owing to the omission to specify the particular lands in question in the register. The Act of George IV. required that that should be done, but the Act of 1832, by an ambiguity of wording, did away with the provision. Another great inconvenience was that at present there were no means of concentrating the search by referring to any one head under which would be found the lands of which the particulars were required. The denominations were exceedingly numerous, and, as some were in English and some in old Irish, the confusion was bewildering. The Commis-
  268
  sion of 1854 reported that in their opinion the register of deeds, the Ordnance Survey, and the Encumbered Estates Court afforded the means of establishing an improved system of registration. The Ordnance Survey was a work of great value and unexceptional accuracy; and there was a general impression among those who had investigated the question that it ought to be made the basis of the register. Persons bringing memorials to be registered should be required to identify on the Ordnance map the particular locality to which the deeds referred. The next question was what division of lands should be adopted. After careful consideration, it had been decided that town lands, being the lowest unit of a known and fixed denomination on those maps, should be the basis of registration. The town lands were of unequal extent, varying from 12 to 7,000 acres, and averaging about 330 acres, the larger townlands being in the waste and mountain districts, and the smaller ones in the neighbourhood of towns. There were 63,000 of them, and the boundaries were most correctly laid down on the Ordnance maps. The only objection was that the names of towns on the map sometimes differed from the names which were used by the proprietors; but as that would not prevent them from being identified on the map, it did not matter. Baronies and parishes, on the other hand, were too large and unwieldy to serve the purpose. To recapitulate the main provisions of the Bill, it was proposed to abolish all the forms hitherto prescribed by Act of Parliament in the office, to simplify the form of memorial, and to place the regulation of the office under the Landed Estates Court, which, being a court occupied in the superintendence of the conveyancing of landed titles, most naturally would attract to itself the superintendence of a registry so intimately connected with its own operations. It was further proposed to validate existing memorials, however defective, unless they had been acted on as invalid; not to allow charges to be registered in the names-index only without a relative register in the lands-index; and to require that particular charges should be specified with respect to each of the deeds registered and with reference to the town-land upon the Ordnance map, so that they might be registered in the name of every townland, and all subsequent dealings with respect to lands would appear col-

  269
  lected in the registry. It was also proposed to take those provisions of the Bill of 1850 which contemplated objects most useful in connection with the Encumbered Estates Court, namely, that the register should be good although there might be notice of an unregistered deed; and that all instruments affecting titles, such as bankruptcy decrees and orders of courts, should be memoralized on the register. Lastly, it was proposed that the register should be placed under the Encumbered Estates Court, and that all other forms of enrolment should be rendered unnecessary. He hoped the hon. Gentlemen connected with Ireland would give the Government every assistance, so as to ensure the passing of the Bill this Session; and he would deprecate the proposal that it should he referred to a Select Committee, The Bill had been carefully prepared by the officers of the Government in Ireland; and with a view to its being passed this Session he should deprecate a proposal, which he believed would be made, that it should be referred to a Select Committee. As he had said, it embodied some of the provisions that were approved by the House in 1850; and where it did not do so, it rather rested upon broad principles of which the House was a competent judge, than upon any narrow points of detail which would require jealous investigation. He thought the Bill would be found to be very useful and legislation upon the subject was extremely necessary.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. HASSARDsaid, it was true that they had a registry in Ireland for 150 years, and they were anxious to make it as perfect as possible. They had not to find fault with it on principle, but in respect to matters of detail, the forms having become antiquated and incapable of being worked. He quite concurred in the necessity of some measure of the kind, but he hoped that the House would consent to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. The speech of the hon. and learned Member who had just addressed them was the best argument in favour of that course; for he was sure that no hon. Member who was not fully acquainted with the law relating to land in Ireland could possibly have followed the hon. and learned Gentleman in his observations, and the Solicitors' Society of Ireland had, after careful consideration, come to the conclusion that it was most dangerous that such
  270
  a measure should pass without being subjected to the most minute examination. They were, moreover, wholly without reliable information on the subject. It was true they had the Reports of two Select Committees, but the evidence on which those Reports had been framed they had had no opportunity of examining or sifting. The provisions as to negative search and those requiring the specification in every registry of the town lands to which it referred, and giving to the Landed Estates Court power to prescribe the forms to be used, would require the most careful consideration. As the Bill stood it would, in regard to the effect of the certificates and other matters, occasion rather than prevent litigation. The index, which would be in fact the register, ought to be prescribed distinctly by the Act, and it was idle to ask the House to enter upon such a question at the length and in the detail required. He objected to confounding together the declaration of title and the registrations of the land, or leaving the two things in the hands of the same officer.
  SIR EDWARD GROGANsaid, he would admit that some legislation on the subject was indispensably necessary. The body of solicitors in Ireland, however, strongly objected to certain provisions of the Bill, but especially with regard to the omission as to negative search. He had no wish to throw difficulties in the way of the second reading; but he suggested that a Committee of the Whole House was the proper authority to enact rules and regulations upon the matters embraced in the Bill.
  MR. MORE O'FERRALLsaid, there was a disposition on all hands to give a fair consideration to the Bill; but its complicated details could not be discussed by that House.
  MR. GEORGEsaid, he objected to any summary disposal of a Bill which proposed at one fell swoop to do away with Acts of Parliament from Queen Anne down to the present time, and to niter a system which on the whole had given great satisfaction in Ireland. At the same time, a large arrear of business had evidently accumulated, and it was necessary to expedite in some way the business of the office. He did not see why the Landed Estates Court should be selected for the registration of all estates; and the better course, he thought, would be to send the Bill to a Select Committee, in order to ascertain the best mode of dealing with the whole question.
  MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, he wished to ask whether, if the Bill were read a second time, the Government would consent to refer it to a Select Committee? He would not now oppose the second reading, but would move, on a subsequent stage of the measure, unless the Government yielded to the wish of the Irish Members, that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee.
  MR. LONGFIELDsaid, he did not think that the Bill was so much a matter of detail that it could not be dealt with in Committee of the Whole House. If it were referred to a Select Committee, there would be no legislation on the subject that Session. Hon. Members should recollect how many Select Committees were already sitting. He did not think there would be enough of Irish Members available for a Select Committee on the Bill. Seeing, however, the temper of the House, he was of opinion that the hon. and learned Gentleman had only one of two courses to adopt—either to drop the Bill, or to drop it more decorously by referring it to a Select Committee.
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, he hoped the Bill would be dropped altogether. It was the most important Bill which the Irish Government had introduced during the Session, and it was more difficult than all their other Bills put together. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary had not said a word upon the subject— perhaps for a very good reason—and there were none of the Irish law officers in the House to explain the law. One of the most accomplished and able members of the English bar had given an explanation, but not six hon. Members in the House understood it. Would it not be better to discuss the subject in the next year, when, perhaps, there might be some Irish law officers on the Treasury Bench? With the object of eliciting the opinion of the Government, he begged to move that the Bill be read a second time that day three months.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
  Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  MR. BERNAL OSBORNEsaid, he rose to second the Motion, not with the wish that the second reading should not
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  pass, but in order that the Bill might be referred to a Select Committee. He was not prepared for the Bill coming on that evening, for he had been informed that all the Irish Bills would be postponed until after Whitsuntide. The Bill was so important that he would really prefer to see it lost than hurried through the House. Her Majesty's Government had not the good fortune of having any Irish law officer in the House; but, nevertheless, with a disinterestedness which he thought almost peculiar to lawyers, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Whiteside) had given them very valuable assistance. He had great confidence in the opinion of that right hon. and learned Gentleman upon those Bills, which he had made his peculiar study, and in which no party question was involved. He regretted that the right hon. and learned Gentleman was not in his place to give them the benefit of his opinion, which was well entitled to the consideration of the House. The hon. and learned Member for Mallow (Mr. Longfield) thought the question ought not to wait; but it could afford to wait better than many other Irish questions. The subject was, in his opinion, peculiarly fitted for a Select Committee. Generally speaking, changes of the law in Ireland were for the benefit of the lawyers; let some consideration now be given to the landed proprietors. If the Gentlemen on the Treasury bench would consent to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, it would be all the better. An awful vote was coming on to-morrow night. Let them take a bit of advice; let them not be obstinate; even upon sanitary principles let them not stand on referring the Bill to a Committee of the Whole House. Let them say, "We will send it to a Select Committee, and not outrage the feelings of the country gentlemen of Ireland."
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, it was considered by the Government that the measure would effect a great improvement in Ireland in regard to the subject-matter of it, and that therefore it ought to be passed this Session. But as the hon. Members for Ireland, who were, of course, the best judges of their own interest, having considered the evil on the one hand, and the effect of delay on the other, were satisfied that it was more for the benefit of Ireland that the Register Office should go on in its present state for another year, the Government would not oppose that

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  wish; and if they desired that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee, the Government would offer no objection.
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, he would withdraw his Motion.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read 2°, and committed to a Select Committee.

HIGHWAYS BILL— [Bin, No. 135.]

  THIRD READING.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  SIR GEORGE GREYmoved that the Bill be read a third time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  MR. BARROWsaid, he objected to the principle of the Bill. He should have been more satisfied with the Bill if it had been made permissive. He objected to it, because it violated the principle that representation and taxation ought to go together, and put the taxation of the country too much under the control of the magistrates. One of the clauses provided that a magistrate whose act as a member of the board was appealed against, should not form one of the tribunal appealed to, but that would be very little protection to the ratepayers. He would move as an Amendment that the Bill be read a third time that day three months.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
  MR. FREELANDfeared that it was too late to do more than enter his emphatic and deliberate protest against the passing of this wretched Highways Bill. By delegating to an irresponsible body the option of imposing a new system involving local taxation on their respective counties without being bound to consult the ratepayers, he thought that the Government had struck a blow at a principle that every Liberal ought to hold sacred, the principle that taxation and representation should go together. The Committee had been chosen exclusively from among those who approved of the principle of the measure, though it was difficult to say what that principle was; yet when this happy and united family got into a committee-room upstairs they divided, as he found from a Return which he held in his hand, no less than ten times on the clauses.
  274
  The Bill was based very much on the Welsh highways system. The Home Secretary had stated, that the Welsh highways cost, on an average, only £6 per mile; but he found, from a letter which he had himself received from the clerk of the Llansawel district, that in the mileage of those highways in some instances the mileage of bridle roads and footpaths was included. On the face of a Return which he himself had moved for, it appeared that in the Vaynor district, out of 64½ miles, 3¾ miles consisted of highways neither used nor repaired. In the Pontypridd district, out of 181¼ miles, 70 miles consisted of mountain tracks occasionally repaired. Looking at these facts, he was inclined to consider £6 per mile a high average, and he thought that the statistics of the Home Secretary could not be relied on. He objected to the establishment of a system tending to centralization, and to which the ratepayers were opposed. Highway boards had been established in Wales, and were now about to be established in England. A central Board would soon be asked for to rule unruly boards and to secure uniformity of highway administration. It was worthy of remark, that the only proposition involving a liberal concession to the ratepayers had come from the other side of the House—the proposition for giving to a majority of the vestries the right of interposing a veto between the provisional and final order of the magistrates. That proposition had been rejected by the Liberal Home Secretary of that which called itself a Liberal Government, though many of those who sat near him had long since ceased to put any faith in that designation. He rejoiced that the Bill had to go before another assembly, where the wishes of the ratepayers might, perhaps, receive more attention than they had received from the Home Secretary in that House.
  MR. H. A. BRUCEsaid, that from ten years' experience of the working of the South Wales Act he was enabled to say that the system had worked well, and had given general satisfaction. Many of the mountain tracks referred to by the hon. Gentleman had been improved, and generally the roads were put in a better condition than they were under the old system.
  SIR BALDWIN LEIGHTONobserved, that the power proposed to be given to the magistrates was not unprecedented, for at present the justices had to decide upon the erection of lunatic asylums. If

  275
  the new powers were given to the magistrates, he did not believe that the ratepayers' interests would at all suffer; for, if the rates were heavier—which he did not expect—there would be the compensation that the roads would be better looked after.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he hoped the hon. Gentleman would defer to the very large majorities which had already affirmed the Bill, and that the House would not be put to the trouble of dividing. They had heard how beneficially a similar measure had operated in Wales, and he must repeat his belief, that so far from the system it proposed being expensive, it would, while improving the roads, also turn out to be an economical one.
  MR. THOMPSONsaid, that although that Bill had been very handsomely abused in that House, the number of petitions that had been presented against it were few, and indicated a great falling-off as compared with the number presented in 1860 and 1861 against a similar measure. As to the supposed addition which the measure would entail to the taxation of the country, he had taken the opinion of some of the best surveyors in his neighbourhood, and one of them said that he would keep the roads in his district in repair for £100 a year less than they now cost. Other gentlemen having practical knowledge bore their testimony with equal emphasis in favour of the theory that the division of the country into districts each sufficient to occupy the whole time of an experienced person would really be an economical proceeding. He must also deny that the Bill would sever the connection between taxation and representation. It only applied to the highways of the country that principle of union and co-operation which had produced most of the great improvements of the age.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, in the constituency which he represented there was but one feeling in regard to the subject, and that was that the proposed intervention of justices in the highway boards was but a means of superseding the legitimately-expressed voice of the ratepayers. He regretted to hear hon. Gentlemen representing a large town argue in favour of that invasion of the corporate privileges of the country parishes. The House, it appeared, was about to pass a Bill which was calculated to create the greatest discontent throughout the whole of the counties in England. Let them not flatter themselves
  276
  that the measure would prove agreeable to the ratepayers. Parishes might certainly have neglected their duties in regard to the repair of highways, but there were ample means under the existing law of compelling the surveyors to discharge their duties. No reasons had been adduced to justify so extensive an alteration of the existing machinery for the maintenance of highways as was proposed by the present Bill. If the House were about to legislate for the convenience of the higher classes, they might depend upon it they would purchase good roads at a severe cost. It was unnecessary to cast that element of discontent upon the country. Hon. Members who cited their own experience, and their own cases of grievance, had neglected the means which the law afforded them of procuring the object they sought. If individuals felt aggrieved, individuals had a most ample and ready remedy. Hon. Members who complained of the badness of their roads should have indicted them. The passage of the Bill would be a proof of want of courage in the class which complained; and he was confident that the fact would add much to the discontent which the Bill was calculated to produce. The people of England did not like to be governed by a class which had not the courage to assert their own just rights. He trusted that in another place, where the members were exclusively of the class for whose benefit the measure was especially intended, they would take due care that they did not purchase somewhat improved roads at the expense of the feelings of their poorer neighbours. By casting on them a sudden expenditure which was not allowed for in the agreements under which they held their farms and land, the Bill would inflict class taxation in its most aggravated form.
  MR. HARDYthought it only fair that he should hear some of the brunt of adverse comment which had been directed against that measure. So far from the Bill deserving the strong language which had been used against it, he believed that it would not only improve, but cheapen the roads. Good roads were in themselves cheap; for they tended to save horses and carts to a degree of which many persons seemed to have no conception. As to putting a new tax on the tenant, there was not the least ground for the assertion.
  MR. NEWDEGATE: The hon. Member is misrepresenting me. I said by creating

  277
  a sudden change the agreements under which the tenants hold their land, and the calculations on which those agreements are founded, will be defeated.
  MR. HARDYsaid, the sudden change could only amount to three tenpenny rates, and to that amount the tenants were liable at present. If a parish had neglected its roads the rates might at first be high; but he did not think that would be an evil. A fallacy seemed to have pervaded the arguments against the Bill. The roads were not made for the parishes through which they passed, but for the public at large. At present, there was no audit of the surveyors' accounts; but under the Bill there would be an audit, and an efficient one. He did not altogether approve of the Bill, for he would have made it compulsory. He believed the magistrates would only put it; in operation where it was required; and both the ratepayers and the public would derive great benefit from it.
  Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 152; Noes 31: Majority 121.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read 3°, and passed.

MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS, —c. AMEND MENT BILL.—CONSIDERATION.
Order for Consideration read.
Clause (Rules for Harbours under local Acts to continue in force) brought up, and read 1°.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be now read a second time."
SIR HUGH CAIRNSsaid, it was impossible to begin to discuss this Bill at midnight.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read 2°, and added.
Another Clause added.
Further Consideration, as amended, deferred till Thursday.

ARTILLERY RANGES BILL.

  COMMITTEE DEFERRED.
  Order for Committee read.
  SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, he would move that the House go into Committee on the Bill.
  MR. BRAMSTONrequested that the Bill might be postponed for a fortnight, in order that the parties interested might examine the map or plan at the Admiralty.
  Committee deferred till Monday, 16th June.

RIFLE VOLUNTEER GROUNDS ACT (1860) AMENDMENT BILL.

  [BILL NO. 134.] COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  Clauses agreed to.
  SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, that the number of bullets fired into the Volunteer butts was so large that the practice prevailed among boys and others to disturb the soil, in order to get at the bullets. Much injury to the butts was caused by these trespassers; and as the criminal law did not reach the offence, he wished to propose an additional clause, imposing, on summary conviction, a penalty not exceeding £5 for the offence.
  Clause agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported; to be considered Tomorrow.
  House adjourned at half after Twelve o'clock,

MERSEY, IRWELL, &. PROTECTION BILL—PETITION AGAINST. (PUBLIC AND PRIVATE BILLS— PRACTICE.)
Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee on the Mersey, Irwell, &. Protection Bill, read.
Then it, was moved, That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee.
LORD KINGSDOWNsaid, he had to present a petition with respect to this Bill. By a recent Standing Order it was provided that when a Private Bill, which passed through a Select Committee, appeared to partake of a public nature, it should afterwards be referred to a Committee of the Whole House. The present Bill was the first case which had come before their Lordships under that provision. Its object was to inflict severe penalties on any person who should throw refuse into the streams to which it related, and it had this peculiarity—that he could not make out whether it was a Public or a Private Bill. The petition which he had to present against the Bill was signed by about 100 persons, owners, lessees, manufacturers, and proprietors of works on the streams of the rivers Mersey and Irwell and their tributaries. In all cases where a Private Bill affected private interests, the Standing Orders required that notice should be given to the parties whose rights were prejudiced. This Bill, the powers of which extended over an area of 400 square miles, was promoted by the Mersey and Irwell Navigation Company; and they rested their case on the fact, that in consequence of the rubbish thrown into
226
those streams, the navigation was impeded. It was possible that might be so; but he apprehended it was the duty of the Navigation Company to remove those obstructions. In any case, however, it was no reason why the Mersey and Irwell navigation should be placed in a different situation from other navigations. Those streams flowed through a large manufacturing district, and he could not understand why the millowners and other occupiers of their banks should be subject to penalties which were not imposed upon persons connected with other rivers. Why was the common law of the land to be altered for the benefit of one particular company? If it required alteration, it should be done for the benefit of all navigable rivers. A curious circumstance connected with the Bill was, that the only part of it in which he found the names of the promoters was a clause which exempted them from the operation of the measure. The petition, which was signed by Mr. Rideout, Mr. S. Blair, and, as he had already said, by about 100 individuals, prayed that the Bill should not be passed into law. Under its provisions, any man throwing rubbish into the streams named, over a distance of twenty-five miles, could be taken before a magistrate and fined,£5 for the first offence, £10 for the second, and £20 for every subsequent offence; and the worst part of it was that half the penalty went to the common informer. Now, the majority of the occupiers had, probably by prescription, or in some other way, the right to throw rubbish into the rivers, and, under the circumstances, he did not think that the Bill, which so seriously interfered with that right, was entitled to the favourable consideration of the House.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that when the Bill came before him he had considerable doubts whether it should be proceeded with as a Private Bill; but it was then a much larger measure than as it now appeared. Being a Bill of a novel character, he watched it with great jealousy; but it was a strict rule of the House that no Bill which only affected a particular locality should be treated as a Public Bill. It was his duty to see whether the evil complained of demanded legislative interference, and whether it was a general one or only confined to a particular locality. From the evidence brought before him it appeared that the evil was a very great one, and that large deposits, which were very detrimental to the navigation, had accumulated

227
in different parts of the streams, in consequence of the practice of throwing rubbish into them. The whole district was covered with mills, a large number of which originally used water power; but in many there was now steam power also, and it was a common practice to throw the ashes into the stream. This was not only objectionable as regarded navigation, but it injuriously affected the drainage of some of the towns. The promoters of the Bill said, that notwithstanding all the dredging the evil was increasing, and that some restriction ought to be imposed in order to prevent a worse nuisance ensuing. With regard to notice, he thought that ample notice had been given by the public advertisements, and, besides, the different parties interested appeared before the Committee, by whom the whole subject was fully investigated—in point of fact, the Bill was very severely fought in Committee. The Bill had been considerably amended, so as to remove some of the objections which were first entertained to it; and he was disposed to think that it ought to be allowed to proceed.
LORD OVERSTONEsaid, that it was of extreme importance that these Private Bills, which really affected great public interests, as well as Vested rights, should be closely watched in their passage through Parliament; and that the most minute examinations should be made of the details, whether the measure happened to be opposed or not. He thought this Bill affected numerous private interests very closely, and should not be passed without careful consideration.
THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, that he thought it better, as a Member of the Select Committee which had sat on this Bill, to state to the House some of the facts connected with it. It had been proved in evidence, that in 1849, when the inconvenience caused by the deposits in the bed of the navigation first began to be felt, borings had been made in the deposit. These were repeated in 1856 and again in 1862; and it was found that the rise in the bed of the river—. not in all places, for in some it was actually now deeper than it was in 1849—but on the average, was about twenty-two inches, and that it was much more rapid in the latter part of the time than in the former; so that if the present state of things continued, in five years there would be no navigation at all. Under these circumstances the Committee considered themselves bound to pass the
228
Bill. No doubt the powers sought for were very large, and he believed that every Member of the Committee expressed an opinion that it would be right that the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees should bring the Bill under the notice of the House. But he was the more satisfied with the course which the Committee on the Bill had pursued, from the circumstance that the counsel for the opponents had called no evidence. He had, however, cited two cases with regard to user. To these cases the counsel for the Bill replied, and commented on them; for no evidence having been called against it, he had no right to a general reply; and, in his (the Earl of Belmore's) opinion, it was shown that one of these cases had nothing whatever to do with the question, and that the other had rather told against it.
LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that the objection to this Bill was raised by those who thought their interests would be affected by it. He contended they had sufficient notice to appear before the Committee by counsel, and might have produced evidence and cross-examined witnesses: but they had not thought proper to do either. It was clearly shown to the Committee this practice of throwing rubbish into the stream had been carried on for some time and to a considerable extent, and even that the manufacturers had produced machinery at their different works to facilitate the conveyance of material into the stream. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Kings-down) had unintentionally stated that the provisions of the Bill would enable any common informer to make a property out of the infringements of the law which would be produced by the acts done after the passing of the Bill. That could hardly have been a correct representation, because the only persons who could lay informations were the corporation, the Mersey, Weaver, and Irwell Company themselves, or the owners and occupiers of lands adjoining one of those streams. He apprehended the present Bill was one which their Lordships should entertain, because it had already received the consideration of a Select Committee, who had unanimously expressed their opinion in its favour.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, the object of the Bill might be a very right and proper one, but he was very much struck with what had been said by the noble Baron who presented the petition.

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It seemed that the Bill was originally introduced as a Private Bill, and was treated as such, and that in consequence no notice had been given to any parties whose interests were likely to be affected; but it was now proposed to he treated as a Public Bill. He thought they ought to pause and hesitate before they went on with the measure, and therefore he should move that the Bill be committed that day three three months.
Amendment moved, to leave out "now," and insert "this day three months."
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYthought, that although the present Bill had been introduced and treated as a Private one, it was to all intents and purposes a Public Bill, since every manufacturer and every landowner and occupier over the districts affected by the measure was liable to the penalties inflicted by it. He believed this was the first time that powers of such a kind had been sought to be obtained by means of a Private Bill, and he considered their Lordships ought to have an opportunity of discussing those powers before the Bill was finally disposed of.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, there was no similarity between the case of the Committee for which he had formerly moved, and the question now before their Lordships, because in the former instance he had received applications from almost every part of England, and the Motion had a general application; whereas in the present case a particular locality was referred to. The evil, however, was one of growing magnitude. The manufactories on the banks of those rivers had year after year seriously affected the navigation and drainage, and the matter was now becoming so serious, that unless some legislative interference took place shortly, it was impossible to calculate the amount of injury which would result. The manufacturers themselves admitted that some steps should by taken, and the members of the Committee were unanimous upon the subject. The Bill had already gone through the Select Committee as a Private Bill, and it was now proposed to commit it to the investigation of a Committee of the Whole House; but the proposition of the noble Earl would reject the Bill altogether.
LORD CRANWORTHsaid, that although their Lordships were then asked to go into Committee on the Bill, they
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had never had an opportunity of considering its principle on the second reading, from the fact that it had been brought forward as a private measure. He would suggest that any further proceeding in the matter should be deferred for a short time, in order that they might be enabled to inform themselves more accurately in respect of its merits or demerits.
EARL GREYsaid this, Bill differed in no respect from the ordinary Bills for the protection of harbours, except that it applied to a larger district of country. Ship-owners were not allowed to throw ballast into the Tyne; and the only hardship to the millowners in this case was that they would be deprived of a cheap and easy mode of getting rid of their rubbish at the expense of the public. The Bill had been before a Select Committee, counsel had been heard on both sides, and an unanimous conclusion having been come to by the Committee in favour of the Bill, he saw no reason for refusing to consider it in Committee of the Whole House.
LORD CRANWORTHsaid, he would propose that the further consideration of the Bill be postponed for a fortnight.
THE EARL OF DESARTconcurred with the noble Earl (Earl Grey) that they should so far adopt the recommendations of the Committee as to proceed to the consideration of the clauses of the Bill.
LORD PORTMANwas of opinion, that if their Lordships refused to go into Committee on the Bill, they would make it a very difficult matter for Committees in future to recommend measures to the consideration of the House. He would strongly urge upon their Lordships to go into Committee, when he intended to propose amendments upon some of the clauses.
LORD TAUNTONsaid, that harbour Bills did not go to Select Committees till all the questions raised by them had been considered by the Admiralty or the Board of Trade; and the Committee were guided very much in their decision by the opinion of an inpartial and responsible Government officer. He saw no way in which questions of this nature could be satisfactorily determined upon by the House; and he thought it would be well if the practice in the case of harbour Bills was followed in regard to such Bills as the one now before their Lordships. He did not think they would be in a bit better position to decide upon the question a fortnight hence that they

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were now, and therefore there was no advantage in postponing the Committee.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he regarded this as a very objectionable measure. A very great public question was brought forward in the guise of a Private Bill, for the protection of the rights of a private company. It was a very serious question, whether there ought not to be some alteration in the law which should prevent the obstruction of tributary streams to navigable rivers. He was not aware of any enactment at present by which the public interest in a navigable river could be protected from having its supplies cut off by the acts of proprietors on the banks of its tributary streams. But, although that great evil was quoted as a reason for the introduction of this Bill, its provisions left the general question entirely untouched, and would amount to nothing more than an invasion of private property. There were a vast number of tributary streams flowing into these navigable rivers, the banks of the streams being the property of private individuals; and the only obligation upon the owners of the property by law was that they should not prevent the flow of water going down to other proprietors of land below them. The law had never gone to the extent of holding that a navigable river fed by the stream should be protected in any manner by the intervention of the Attorney-General. This Bill proposed not to legislate in such a manner as to secure the flow of water down to the navigable river, but to prevent the proprietors from dealing at all with the banks of the river; and throwing anything—even a stone—into the river was made a penal offence. He thought it might be expedient to give power to a court of justice to restrain by injunction any act that might impede the flow of water so as to interfere with the navigation; but their Lordships should be careful not to declare that an offence, which, might not in any degree contribute to the evil which they wished to remove. He thought legislation upon the subject necessary; but he considered that the evil should be met by a general comprehensive measure, instead of by a Bill dealing with a particular interest, and which would prove a petty, trifling, and vexatious procedure, without accomplishing the object in view.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEthought this measure a very one-sided one, and that it ought not to be agreed to.
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He quite agreed with the noble and learned Lord, that the question involved was a fit one for general legislation.
LORD BROUGHAMthought there were already in existence powers to prevent the gradual filling-up of navigable rivers. If he were the owner of a stream, and chose to deepen it, throwing the rubbish he dug out into the river, he would be indictable for a nuisance; and the same remedy was open against a person who filled the river in by any other means.
LORD CAMPERDOWNsaid, he should be satisfied with the postponement of the consideration of the Bill in Committee, and would withdraw his Amendment.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, no doubt the remedy referred to by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Brougham), of indicting a person who filled the river in for a nuisance, existed, but it could not be carried out, as it was impossible to find out whose rubbish filled the river in. He should suggest that the Bill be postponed till that day fortnight, and that in the mean time the evidence taken before the Select Committee be printed.
Amendment and original Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn; and Committee put of to Monday the 16th instant.

FLOATING BREAKWATERS.
LORD RAVENSWORTHasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether Her Majesty's Government had taken any steps, or intended to take any steps for carrying into effect the recommendation of the Select Committee of their Lordships' House in 1860 upon floating breakwaters, &c., which was reported in the following terms:—
"The Committee are not prepared to recommend that the Government should undertake the task of constructing breakwaters on these principles; but looking to the vast cost of harbours constructed upon the systems hitherto in use, they are of opinion that a moderate sum may be advantageously expended by the Government in testing any plans which may offer a probability of important results in great future saving of money and in giving protection to life and property in various localities. To carry this object into effect the Committee recommend that a sum not exceeding £10,000 be placed at the disposal of the Admiralty."
To show the importance of the subject, he might observe that the Committee stated in their Report that the annual loss of property off our coasts arising from casualties—that was shipwreck—had been, on

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the average of six years from 1852, £1,500,000, while 780 lives had been lost on the average during the same period. This was sufficient to prove that some protection was needed. A great many ingenious contrivances were submitted to the Committee for providing floating breakwaters at various places round the coast, which the Committee recommended should be experimented upon, and that a moderate sum should be appropriated to that purpose. Since that period very large sums had been voted for carrying out experiments in new inventions for the destruction of human life, and he thought Parliament could hardly grudge the outlay of the small sum suggested in an experiment the object of which was to preserve both life and property. He was quite aware that practical and scientific men had given opinions adverse to the probable efficiency of these floating breakwaters; but when it was remembered that practical and scientific opinions had been quite as strongly pronounced against steam navigation, railways, and that even now old artillery officers were as strongly prejudiced against the Armstrong gun, believing it to altogether inefficient compared to the old smoothbore, he hoped such opinions would not be allowed to prevail against devoting so small a sum for testing an invention which, if successful, would produce such beneficial results.
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that two years ago a Committee of the House of Lords, of which he had the honour to be a member, was appointed to inquire into the subject of floating breakwaters. That Committee heard a great variety of opinions, both as to the advantage and disadvantage of floating breakwaters; so that the Committee were divided in opinion. For his part, he did not concur in the recommendation of the Committee, that a considerable sum of money should be placed in the hands of the Admiralty, and that the Admiralty should try the experiments. At the present time the Admiralty had got sufficient experiments on their hands, and he was not very much inclined to incur large expenditure for which the Admiralty would be responsible; for it was obvious, that if the plans for floating breakwaters succeeded, the gentlemen who proposed them would say that all the merit was theirs; and if they failed, as he (the Duke of Somerset) thought they would, they would say that the Admiralty had conducted the experi-
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ments in such a manner that they were certain to fail. Moreover, the sum mentioned in the Report of the Committee was entirely inadequate for the purpose. Every one knew that a light-ship could be so moored that it would not be moved by a storm; but to moor a floating breakwater a quarter or half a mile long was a very different matter, and the question was not how to moor it against an ordinary storm, but a great storm; and when that came, the probability was, that instead of protecting the shipping behind it, it would prove their destruction. For this reason the Admiralty had no wish to try experiments upon a large scale, and certainly to try experiments upon a small scale would be to throw money away. Since the Committee issued its Report two or three parties had proposed to try the experiment. The Admiralty replied that they would not withhold their permission from the operations, but they declined to make themselves responsible for any of the consequences which might happen to shipping. He had not heard lately that any companies were prepared to undertake these experiments; but, in case works of the kind were carried on, the Admiralty would watch them with great interest, and would be very glad if good results followed. The question of harbours of refuge was one involving enormous cost, though within the last few years engineers had discovered that they could be constructed for much less comparative expense than they formerly were. The Committee had done good by calling the attention of engineers and of the public to the subject, but on the part of the Government he was not prepared to give any positive promise of undertaking a work of this nature.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, the reasons adduced by the noble Duke were not, to his mind, satisfactory. The principle of the invention having received the sanction of the highest authority, he did not see why an outlay of £10,000 might not he attended with beneficial results.
LORD RAVENSWORTHsaid, that no enormous outlay was proposed to be made in the first instance. It was distinctly stated in the evidence before the Committee that these breakwaters were in-tended to be constructed in small portions, and therefore the invention might be tested at a small outlay; for if a small portion were found to stand, the whole

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extent of a long breakwater would be equally good.

RIVER DEE NAVIGATION.—QUESTION.
LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, he wished to ask the noble Duke the First Lord of the Admiralty for an explanation of the circumstances under which the Board of Admiralty insisted on the insertion of certain Clauses in a Bill now before Parliament, promoted by the Birkenhead, Flint-shire, and Holyhead Railway Company, giving jurisdiction to the Admiralty over part of the river Dee, to the Prejudice of the Eights of the River Dee Company. he complained that after both Houses had three times refused to sanction the insertion of of what were called the Admiralty clauses in respect to the jurisdiction of the Admiralty over the navigation of the river Dee, which was under the jurisdiction of the Dee Commissioners, they had this Session sought to re-introduce them in a private Railway Bill now before Parliament. He trusted the noble Duke would seriously consider whether, as these clauses had been rejected on several occasions, they ought to be inserted in this Bill.
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that early this Session the Bill referred to was introduced, and was referred to the Admiralty under the provisions of the local Act, which required a preliminary report, and such a report was made. But all questions of reporting by the Admiralty on private Bills involved considerable difficulty. He afterwards saw a deputation of gentlemen representing private interests, who urged him to put his veto on the Bill; that he thought would have been unfair, without giving the other side an opportunity of being heard on the subject. The Admiralty, consequently, had directed a report to be drawn up pointing out the effect of the construction of a bridge over the Dee, on the navigation of the river, and proposed to insert certain clauses for the protection of the navigation, which it appeared to him under the circumstances to be reasonable to insist on, leaving the Committee of the House of Commons to deal with the matter. He would observe that the Doc Company was bound to keep open the navigation of the Dee by dredging to a certain depth. If in future this Bill should come before Parliament, the Board of Trade would have to deal with it, the questions involved being commercial.
LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, that if it
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were true that the River Dec Company had neglected their duties, he was afraid it might be said that the Commissioners had neglected theirs, as they possessed powers to withhold the tolls, which they had not done.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, the question to be decided in 1851, was whether the Dee Company had kept the river at a proper depth, and it was considered that they had done so. He thought it was too much the habit at the Admiralty to insist on the promoters of Private Bills introducing a lot of cut and dried clauses, without reference to the particular circumstances of the case. He had known this to be done on several occasions. The River Dee Company are under penalties to keep the river at a proper depth, and justly claim to be allowed to do so in the way they think best, without being interfered with by the insertion of the Admiralty clauses.
House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.