Sitting of 1 August 1861

Minutes.
NEW MEMBERS SWORN. — For Morpeth, right hon. Sir George Grey, baronet, G.C.B.; for London, Western Wood, esquire; for Tamworth, right hon. Sir Robert Peel, baronet; for Andover, Henry Beaumont Coles, esquire.
PUBLIC BILLS,—20 Probates and Letters of Administration Act (Ireland) Amendment. 30 Officers of Reserve (Royal Navy).

THE IRON-CASED SHIP DEFENCE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, he rose to ask the junior Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is true that the iron-cased ship Defence is being built under the superintendence of Mr. Lewcock, the Admiralty Inspector, who on the 4th March last reported to the Admiralty that the steamer Hibernia was "in every respect fit to be employed for the conveyance of the Mails between Gal-way and the United States, in accordance with the Contract with the Atlantic Royal Mail Steam Navigation Company."
  MR. WHITBREADsaid, it was true that the Defence was being built under the inspection of Mr. Lewcock, but the works were also looked after by his superior officer, Mr. Watts.

SUEZ CANAL.—QUESTION.
MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, that he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether accounts have been received from the Consul General in Egypt giving the assurance that no Forced Labour is being employed on the works of the Suez Canst?.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, a Report had very recently been received from

1823
the Consul General, who had made a tour along the line of the intended canal, and it appeared that a considerable number of labourers were compelled to work on the canal; that they were very liberally paid by the Company, but that they had been brought to the spot without their wishes having been very much consulted.

MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. WHALLEY, in whose name a Question stood on the Paper as to when the Returns ordered by the House on the 18th of May last relative to Maynooth would be presented, said he had received a communication from the late Secretary for Ireland assigning reasons why, in consequence of some irregularity, those Returns could not be made. He, therefore, wished to express his readiness to concur in any alteration in the Motion made for them which would obviate the objection thus raised.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, it had boen deemed desirable that the Returns should not be produced in accordance with the words in which the Motion for them was couched. These words assumed that certain documents were signed by the Roman Catholic Bishops in Ireland, whereas there was no proof that such was the case. The publication of the Returns might, therefore, tend to implicate those Prelates in a breach of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act.
  MR. WHALLEY: Will the hon. Baronet propose any words he may desire to see substituted for others in the Motion?

THE MONUMENT AND THE DUKE OF YORK'S COLUMN.—QUESTION.
MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKsaid, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether the Board of Works can obtain leave to remove the Iron Cages which are at present placed upon the respective summits of the Monument and the Duke of York's Column; and, if so, whether such Cages might not be replaced by some other protection against accidents?
MR. COWPERsaid, that like the hon. Gentleman, he regretted the disfigurement of the Duke of York's Column by the cage which was at present at the top of it. He found that it had been placed there by the Trustees, who represented the subscribers to the work, in consequence of the suicide of an unfortunate musician who had thrown
1824
himself from the top of the column. Those Trustees were willing to substitute for the cage any other device that would be effectual for the object they had in view; but he did not at that moment see what other expedient could be adopted for that purpose.

CASE OF THOMAS CARTER.
  EXPLANATION.
  SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, that he had yesterday read to the House a letter from the Magistrate by whom Thomas Carter had been committed to prison, explaining the grounds of that committal. He had since received a copy of the evidence on which the conviction was founded, and it seemed to him that the depositions of the witnesses were so meagre that the imprisonment which Carter had undergone was sufficient to meet the justice of the case, and he had, therefore, given directions to have him discharged.
SUPPLY OF PROVISIONS TO THE NAVY.

  QUESTION.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether the attention of the Board has been directed to the fact that considerable inconvenience may arise if, in the present condition of the United States, we are to continue to depend on that country for our supply of beef for the use of the navy?
  LORD CLARENCE PAGET: We now cure our own beef, and we have no contract on the subject with any foreign country.

MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.

  RETURNS MOVED FOR.
  MR. WHALLEYmoved that the Order for the Returns relative to Maynooth College should be discharged. He intended, he said, to renew it in another form.
  LORD FERMOYsaid, that before the Question was put, he wished to know what were the intentions of the Government with respect to the Ecclesiastical Titles Act. The Chief Secretary had intimated on a former occasion that there was an intention on the part of the Irish Government to carry out that Act. The people of Ireland, and of England also, would like to have some information upon that point.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, that the Question before the House was simply one

  1825
  for the discharge of an unopposed Motion. It was, therefore, hardly matter for debate.
  MR. HENNESSYexplained, that, although the Motion was unopposed by the Government, he had intimated to the hon. Member for Peterborough that he intended to oppose it. He submitted that before the Order was discharged it should be read to the House.
  MR. SPEAKERunderstood that the hon. Member for Peterborough wished to withdraw his Motion for the Returns with a view of proposing it in an amended form. When the Government had no objection to a Motion for Returns it was usual to regard it as unopposed.
  MR. WHALLEYsaid, that, in order to avoid discussion at the present moment, he was desirous to withdraw his Motion, with the view of postponing it till next Session.
  MR. CARDWELLremarked, that it was necessary to discharge the Order for the Returns on account of an irregularity. The Order implied that an offence had been committed which that House did not know, and which the parties by whom the Returns were to be made were bound not to admit as a fact until it was proved to be so. It was necessary, therefore, that the Motion should be discharged, in order that the information might be given in a manner conformable to the rules and regulations of the House.
  LORD FERMOYgave notice that he should at a future sitting ask what were the intentions of the Government relative to the Ecclesiastical Titles Act.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONwas prepared to answer that question at once. It was not the intention of the Government to propose any alteration in the law, and if cases occurred they would be dealt with as circumstances might seem to warrant.
  MR. WHALLEYremarked, that the hon. Member for the King's County might, perhaps, remove the difficulty about the Returns by admitting on the part of the Roman Catholic prelates that they had appended their territorial titles to their names.
  Order discharged.

PAROCHIAL AND BURGH SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL.

  LORD'S AMENDMENTS.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEexplained, that the reason why the Bill had been
  1826
  introduced so late in the Session was in order to enable the General Assembly to consider the measure. When the schoolmasters applied to him to bring the subject forward, he stated that having twice attempted to carry a Bill without success he would not again take up the question unless he had reason to expect that the Bill would be favourably received, not only in that House but elsewhere. It was not until after the Easter recess that he had reason to think that that expectation would be fulfilled. He had only to say, that it was with great gratification he found that at least they were about to settle this controversy which had been pending for twenty years. He could not but congratulate the House that at length justice was about to be done to a most meritorious class of persons.
  MR. ADAMdesired to enter his protest against that Amendment made by the Lords which substituted three Professors of Divinity instead of two, and thus gave to the Established Church equal power with the laity in the examination of schoolmasters. The result would be that none but members of the Established Church would be admitted. He trusted that next Session some improvement in that point would be made.
  MR. HOPEtrusted that all parties in Scotland would work harmoniously together to carry the measure into effect. Amendments
  agreed to

OFFICERS OF RESERVE (ROYAL NAVY)

  BILL.—THIRD READING.
  Order for third Reading read.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETmoved the Order of the Day for the third reading of this Bill.
  MR. LINDSAYsaid, that not having been present when this Bill was discussed, he wished to say a few words. He thought it a valuable measure, and one which on various grounds ought to receive the sanction of the House; but much must, of course, depend on the regulations by which it would be carried into effect. As chairman of the meeting of officers of the mercantile marine held some weeks ago at the London Tavern, he had been deputed to wait on the Duke of Somerset, in order to acquaint his Grace with the resolutions to which they had come. It was but justice to say that the Duke of Somerset and the noble Lord the Secretary of the Admiralty had gone as far as practicable

  1827
  in meeting the objections which the officers of the merchant service entertained to the scheme. He, therefore, trusted the officers of the merchant service would have no hesitation in coming forward and entering themselves, as patriotic men, in this Reserve; and if they did so there would, he was sure, be no difficulty about the Reserve of 30,000 men recommended to be raised. At the same time, he thought his noble Friend had not been sufficiently explicit on one subject — he meant the difficult and delicate point of rank. Within the last ten years, since the passing of the Mercantile Marine Act, the officers of the mercantile service had greatly improved in character. They had to pass an examination in seamanship and navigation quite as strict as the officers of the Royal Navy had to undergo; and it would not be agreeable to them to serve under junior officers of the navy, who in comparison with themselves might be mere boys. That difficulty might perhaps be met in this way: —The officers of Reserve could only be called out on emergencies. On such occasions there would, no doubt, be a great number of small gun and despatch boats employed, and the Admiralty might place those officers as lieutenants in command of them. These officers were willing — nay, anxious, to enter the Reserve force even at a considerable pecuniary sacrifice; but they desired that their position in the Reserve should not be inferior to that which they now occupied. He hoped the noble Lord would say a few words on this occasion to encourage these officers to join the Reserve. He could testify to the best feeling existing between the officers of the two services, and he hoped immediately the regulations were issued it would be found the full complement of officers had entered, to be followed by the full number of seamen. Having said so much on this Bill, he might be allowed to say a few words in regard to the naval armament. At the commencement of the Session he had made a statement on the authority of the French Minister of Marine in regard to the armaments in that country, and every means had been placed at his disposal to enable him to ascertain whether the figures were accurate. He had himself received an invitation to visit the dockyards of France, and, although he was unable to avail himself of that invitation, a competent gentleman had been despatched under his direction to make a thorough inspection of the French
  1828
  dockyards. The result of that gentleman's observations entirely confirmed the accuracy of the figures which he had himself submitted to the House on the subject. During the Easter recess his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow (Mr. Dalglish) and another hon. Member also visited the French dockyards, and orders were granted by the French Minister of Marine to facilitate their inspection of everything to be found there. They made an inspection accordingly; and they, likewise, confirmed everything which he had said to the House in regard to the then naval armaments of France. He mentioned this because some remarks that he had made the other night had evidently been misunderstood across the Channel. It has been stated, however, that of late a great movement had been made in the number of iron-cased ships about to be built, or building by France. It was difficult to put faith in the statements made on this point the other night by the noble Lord at the head of the" Government and by the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty; but if those statements were correct, then, considering the extent of our property afloat and on shore, and considering also the vast extent of our seaboard both at home and in our colonies, there was no other course left to England but to go on building those iron ships for which the "Votes had been taken. The necessities of our position required that if France had twenty of those ships this country must, he was sorry to say, have thirty. But while he said that he nevertheless could not doubt the friendly intentions of France towards England; because the Emperor knew it to be his own interest to maintain amicable relations with us, From the conversations which he had had with the Ministers of France, as well as with the Emperor himself, he believed the French Government were willing to come to some understanding with this country as to the relative strength of the armaments to be kept up by the two Powers. On the part of the people of France he thought a similar desire existed, and he, therefore, earnestly hoped that Her Majesty's Government would during the approaching recess use their best endeavours to carry out such an understanding.
  MR. STANILANDappealed to the Government, before the Session closed, to inform the House and the country whether there was the slightest chance of any such arrangement being concluded between the two Governments as that to which the hon.

  1829
  Member for Sunderland had referred. If it were possible—even though it might be most improbable—that such an arrangement could be come to, it was due to the people of England, on whom the enormous cost of these armaments would fall, that the attempt should be made. France and England seemed, by a process of financial exhaustion, to be trying to discover which could expend most money in increasing its armaments. There was nothing to justify the course which France was pursuing in this respect. It was only due to the taxpayers of this country, who wore ready to bear every needful burden for the national defence, that they should learn from Her Majesty's Government whether any attempt had already been or would still be made with a view to bring about some j limitation of the ruinous rivalry now going I on between the two countries.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETonly wished to say, in answer to the remarks of the hon. Member for Sunderland as to the comparative armaments of France and England, that the statements which his noble Friend and himself made the other day had reference to a totally different period from that to which the hon. Member had alluded when he gave the House the information that he had obtained regarding the French dockyards. The hon. Member for Sunderland, as he understood him, had caused certain parties to go and inspect the French dockyards. Now, the Government were perfectly aware that early during the present year there was no considerable progress making in those ten additional iron-cased ships. But since that date an order had been given to all the French dockyards to proceed with those ships; and the statement made by his noble Friend had reference to that circumstance. In regard to the matter really before the House—namely, the third reading of the Officers of the Naval Reserve Bill, he must say he did not think his hon. Friend had done justice to his remarks concerning those officers the other evening. He had distinctly stated that he was quite sure the Admiralty would consult the feelings of the senior officers and old captains of the merchant service who entered the Naval Reserve, and that if they should be called upon in time of war it would be the duty of the Admiralty, as far as possible, to avoid putting them in a situation that would be derogatory to their professional standing or character. He was sure that no Board of Admiralty
  1830
  would ever think of offering any affront to those officers. On the contrary, the desire would be to place them in an honourable position if ever they should be called upon for active service. It was impossible for him now to make a prospective arrangement as to what should take place in the unfortunate event of a war. He could only say that the Admiralty accepted the services of these gentlemen with the highest possible gratification. He hoped and believed that they would come forward in great numbers to serve their country as the rest of their countrymen had done, and he would earnestly beseech them, as he would beseech his own brother officers, to cast aside all the ancient antagonism and jealousy which bad, unhappily, prevailed. He trusted that there would be a general desire for mutual conciliation on the part of the navy and the merchant service, and he was confident that these officers of the Reserve would be cordially welcomed into the service.
  MR. WHITEwished to draw a moral from the remarks of the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty. The noble Lord said that when the hon. Member for Sunderland sent a special agent to France to ascertain the amount of naval preparations going on there, the progress then described as being made in the French dockyards was correct; but that since then, or three months afterwards, a vast augmentation in those preparations had taken place. Would it not be reasonable to infer that the magnitude of our preparations had provoked the increased activity of France? What was the use of the boasted friendship and alliance between the two countries if things were to go on as at present?: When was the rivalry to cease, and could not some understanding be come to between the two countries to put an end to a state J of things which sooner or later must lead to a collision?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: My hon. Friend has drawn a conclusion which is not warranted by the facts nor by the statement of my noble Friend. He infers that because the active execution of these new ships had not begun when the inquiries of the hon. Member for Sunderland were made, therefore, the subsequent commencement of these ships was owing to our preparations. Now, in point of fact, we had made no preparations, because the orders which have been issued for casing some wooden ships, and for commencing the construction of some iron vessels, are very re-

  1831

  cent and subsequent to what the French Government has done, and are founded upon what that Government has done. But the real history of the case is this, as I said the other evening:—In December last the French Government took a resolution to construct ten iron ships in addition to the six which were known to us before. They had doubts as the proper mode of construction, and those doubts were to be solved by experiments which were to be made bythe Gloire, which was afloat. They remained from that time until May in suspense, and it was not until May that, having settled certain doubtful points which were not settled before, and which were only decided by the cruise of the Gloire, orders were given actively to proceed with these ten armed ships. The keels were then laid down, and proceedings commenced. And, therefore, as my noble Friend said, the investigation made by the hon. Member for Sunderland took place at a time when the order had been determined upon, but not actually given to the dockyards, and anybody going to the dockyards then would see nothing, because there was nothing to see. The statements made by my noble Friend and myself at a later period referred to the actual commencement of these ships. Now, as to the other question—one of great importance—whether the British Government could not enter into communication with any foreign Government—for it must not be confined to France—but with any foreign Government, with a view to impose a limit upon the respective naval forces of the two countries, that is a more important question, of great difficulty, and open to much criticism. I think that, although at the first blush it, appears to be a practicable thing, I think that any British Government would long pause and hesitate before it entered into any agreement with foreign countries limiting the amount of force, naval or military, which this country ought to maintain. We should judge of that amount according to the circumstances of the moment. Any agreement must be with several foreign Powers; because it is not France alone that is a naval Power. There are Russia, the United States, Spain—which is growing in importance— and other States which have navies, and, therefore, any limitation of our own force must be made with a view not only to the naval power of France, but to any possible combination of other Powers. Such an arrangement would, I think, lead to interminable doubts and disputes. We
  1832
  must have officers watching them, and they must have officers watching us; there would be doubts and suspicions of bad faith, and, instead of laying the foundations of peace, we should, I fear, be sowing the seeds of future interminable dissensions.
  Bill read 30 and passed.
  On Motion for the Adjournment of the House,

  EDUCATION —ROMAN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS.—OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Whalley), who was not present at that moment in the House, had given notice to call attention to the Report of the Committee of Council on Education (1860 and 1861, p. 195), so far as respects the Reports of the Roman Catholic Inspectors on Roman Catholic schools, receiving grants of public money, and to ask why the Reports of certain Inspectors—namely, Mr. Morrell and Mr. Marshall—have been omitted from the Reports presented to Parliament, and to move for the production of such Reports. Before alluding to that subject he wished to ask whether some questions had not been addressed to the Committee of Council on Education respecting the system of grants to the British schools in Wales, and whether anything had been done, the effect of which was to place these schools in a better position for receiving assistance from the Education Board than the schools of the National Society, and whether due securities were taken for the communication of religious instruction in these schools? He wished to call the attention of the House to some of the statements in Report of the one—the only Inspectors'—which had been laid before them; statements referring to the imperfect manner in which the accounts were kept in the Roman Catholic schools under his inspection. The Inspector stated that in several of the Roman Catholic schools, for instance, those of Hammersmith and St Leonard's-on-Sea, both of which schools were connected with convents, there were really no proper accounts whatever kept; and that there was nothing to show that the grants voted for the purposes of those schools had not been devoted to quite different objects. He (Mr. Newdegate) would not enter into the details of this Report, but would merely confine himself to its general effect. In reference to

  1833
  Hammersmith, the Inspector stated that the accounts presented to him there were made up in accordance with no known system of account, and with respect to St. Leonard's-on-Sea that the expenses for the maintenance of the schools were mixed up with expenses of various other kinds, so that it was impossible for him to give an assurance to the Committee of Education that those accounts fairly represented the expenditure of the public money upon education. Those facts he (Mr. Newdegate) thought quite sufficient to make the House desirous of obtaining the Reports of the other Inspectors of Roman Catholic schools; and to create considerable uneasiness as to the mode in which the public money given for a special purpose had been appropriated. He begged pardon of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Whalley), whom he now saw in the House, for having anticipated his question of which he had given notice. He, like the hon. Member, was anxious that the House should have some clear account of the expenditure of this money, and he, therefore, wished to know why the Reports of the other two Inspectors had not been laid before them?
  MR. WHALLEYthen rose, pursuant to notice, to call attention to the Report of the committee of Council on Education for 1860 and 1861, so far as the same had reference to the reports of the Roman Catholic inspectors on Roman Catholic schools receiving grants of public money. He also desired to ascertain why the reports of Mr. Morrell and Mr. Marshall, Inspectors, had been omitted from the reports presented to Parliament, and to move for the production of such reports?
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, the hon. Member was not in order in introducing this subject upon the Motion for the adjournment of the House, after having allowed the Motion to which he referred to be passed over without expressing an opinion upon it.
  MR. WHALLEYappealed to the noble Lord at the head of the Government to permit him to proceed. He had merely gone to the library for a few moments, and during his absence the Motion for adjournment was made. It was understood that the return would be granted, and was only delayed in consequence of the absence of the Vice-President of the Committee of Council. It was really a matter of very great importance, and he could speak on the Motion for adjournment. In
  1834
  the Report there was no satisfactory account of the application of the money. Instead of being applied to the purposes of education, it was palpably and plainly applied to the erection of chapels and churches. ("Order, order.")
  MR. SPEAKERagain interposed.
  MR. WHALLEY:Really I am very hardly dealt with.
  MR. NEWDEGATEhoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Board of Education would favour him with an answer to his question.
  MR. LOWEsaid, that the Questions referred to the management of Dissenting schools, and were abstract questions, intended to give rise to controversy. As the Education Committee had a great deal of business to attend to, which they could hardly overtake, they declined to be drawn into an abstract discussion by a member of one sect ns to the mode in which they dealt with another sect. If they did this the Privy Council Education Committee would be the battle-field of rival sects, and much ill-will would be stirred up. His hon. Friend (Mr. Whalley) a short time ago complained that a report by Mr. Morrell, one of the Inspectors, contained some improper expressions. He concurred in this opinion, and told his hon. Friend the matter should not occur again. He was not altogether satisfied with Mr. Morrell's report this year, and he thought it better; not to print it all at the public expense. Last year his hon. Friend was angry with him because he had printed Mr. Morrell's report while this year he was angry with him for not printing it. It was desirable to keep some moderation in these reports. Every Inspector of schools made two reports, one a tabulated report of the number and state of the schools in his district, and the other a general report, which ought to be confined to the state of his schools and practical suggestions for their amendment. When expressions were used which he did not approve, or when irrelevant matter was introduced, it was his duty to send the reports back to the Inspectors. He could not omit passages, or make alterations, without being charged with garbling, so that when the reports were returned to him unaltered, or still containing objectionable matter, he made it a rule to suppress them altogether. If, however, hon. Members move for the production of Returns which he had thought it undesirable to print with the others, it would be offering a premium for objectionable reports.
  MR. HENNESSYquite approved of the course pursued by the Privy Council in suppressing the irrelevant reports. Indeed, he would go so far as to say that the tabulated reports contained the only information which was useful or interesting to the public, and that the general reports were made only for the information of the Department, and ought not to be printed at the public expense. None of the Inspectors were Roman Catholics.
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at a quarter after Six o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Gardens in Towns Protection; Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); East India Loan (No. 2); Militia Pay; Militia Ballots Suspension; Wills and Domicile of British subjects Abroad, &c.; Corrupt Practices Prevention Act (1854) Continuance; Landed Estates (Ireland) Act (1858) Amendment; Metropolitan Police District Receiver; Parochial Offices; Local Government Supplemental (No. 2); Volunteers Tolls Exemption (No.2.); Treasury Chest Fund.
2a Metropolis Gas Act Amendment; Lace Factories; Gunpowder, &c. Act Amendment; Episcopal and Capitular Estates Act Continuance, &c.
3a Industrial Schools (Scotland); Industrial Schools; Enlistment in India; Indemnity.
Royal Assent—Piers and Harbours; Turnpike Trusts Arrangements; Harbours; Passengers (Australian Colonies); Metropolitan Police Force Pensions; Railway Companies Mortgage Transfer (Scotland); Drunkenness (Ireland);
Landlord and Tenant Law Amendment (Ireland) Act Proceedings; Vaccination; Voters (Ireland); University Elections; Dublin Revising Barristers; Lunatic Asylums (Ireland) Act Continuance; County Cess (Ireland) Act Continuance; Local Government Act Amendment; Locomotives; Tramways (Scotland); East India (Civil Service); Irremoveable Poor; Crown Suits Limitation; East India Council, &c.; County Surveyors, &c. (Ireland); Public Works (Ireland) (Advances and Repayments of Monies); Attornies and Solicitors (Ireland); White Herring Fishery (Scotland); Turnpike Acts Continuance; Ordnance Survey Continuance; Criminal Proceedings Oath Relief.

BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments made by the Lords (to which the Commons had disagreed, and on which the Lords have insisted) not insisted upon, and with consequential Amendments to the original Bill:
The said Amendments to be considered To-morrow.

GARDENS IN TOWNS PROTECTION BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. FIRST READING
  Lord REDESDALEsaid, that some time ago he had called their Lordships' attention to the present state of Leicester Square Garden. Since then he had learned that "the Great Globe" was about to be removed, and there was a disposition to restore the Square to its former condition; but it appeared there were grave doubts as to what the law was on this subject, or what were the rights of the proprietors. There were powers in the Metropolis Local Management Act to preserve all open spaces; but there was some doubt whether these powers extended to the restoration of this Square to its former condition, though it had been a garden for more than a century. In order that it might not be supposed that he had lost sight of the subject, he begged now to lay on their Lordships' table a Bill for the Protection of certain Garden or Ornamental Grounds in Cities and Boroughs.
  Bill, —That Gardens in Squares, &c, of Fifty Years standing may be freed from Neglect, Encroachments, &o. and vested in a Committee of Rated Inhabitants, or if such decline, in the Metropolitan Board of "Works or Corporate Authority, —presented, and read la.

LACE FACTORIES BILL

  SECOND READING.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, that he rose to move the second reading of this
  1818
  Bill, not only as a member of the Government, but as being closely connected with the district to which the Bill principally applied. He was the more anxious to do this because he wanted to explain the effect of certain alterations that had been made in the Bill during its progress through the other House, and by which its clauses, as agreed to between the masters and workmen, had been changed. Indeed, it had been said in the other House that the master manufacturers were opposed to this Bill, and had done all in their power to prevent its passing. He could assure the House that this allegation was wholly unfounded; and in support of that he could appeal to his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Shaftesbury) whether, when he called attention to the subject some fifteen or sixteen months ago, he (the Duke of Newcastle) did not rise in his place and state that the master manufacturers were quite willing that there should be legislation on the subject, and were also agreed on the main provisions of the Bill. It was, moreover, said that the Bill was not in conformity with the suggestions of Mr. Tremenheere, and it was added, though somewhat inconsistently with the other report, that Mr. Tremenheere allowed himself to be unduly influenced by the master manufacturers. These charges were also wholly unfounded. Mr. Tremenheere cordially approved of the present Bill, and he might again appeal to his noble Friend opposite whether Mr. Tremenheere, whose valuable services for the last twenty years were acknowledged by all parties, was capable of being unduly influenced by either one side or the other. The alterations of importance made in the Bill in its passage through the other House were two:—The first was the alteration of the age at which young persons might begin to work from eleven to thirteen. The other alteration referred to the meal hours. The plan of the masters was that the workpeople should take their meals at separate half-hours, so that the mills should not be stopped; but this was altered in the Commons to one and the same time of meals for all the workpeople, the effect of which would be that the mills would be entirely stopped. With regard to the first of these alterations it was thought that it would act prejudicially, inasmuch as the masters might refuse to employ young persons at all, and a joint committee of masters and workmen had agreed to split the difference, and fix the age at twelve. It was hoped the committee of

  1819
  workmen would have agreed to a plan for dividing the workpeople into two parties, and to make their half hours of meal time to dovetail into each other, so that one should come into work as the other left; but for some reason or another the workmen were unwilling to adopt this compromise, and they were placed in this position, that they must either attempt to carry this Bill against the wishes of the workmen, or drop the Bill entirely. He was now moving the second reading on a Thursday, and the prorogation would take place on Tuesday next; so that they had only two days to sit and and transact business, and any difference of opinion between the two Houses would therefore ensure the loss of the Bill. The masters had a fair ground for requesting that the Bill might be dropped, inasmuch as they believed that the clause would work injuriously both for masters and men; but within the last hour he had received a communication from a deputation who represented the masters, in which they stated that as the dropping of the Bill would be a great disappointment to the working classes, especially to the women and children, they would rather encounter all the evils they anticipated from the operation of this clause than allow it to be dropped. He trusted that, should future Amendments be required in this matter, their Lordships would bear in mind the period of the Session in which this Bill had been passed and the conduct of the masters in assenting to what they thought might prove inexpedient, and would not refuse to give a fair consideration to any representations that might be made. The noble Duke then moved that the Bill be now read the second time.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYstated, that he had been received with the greatest courtesy in Nottingham; was shown over the mills with the utmost freedom, and encountered no impediment in procuring any information which he wished to obtain. He honestly believed that the manufacturers were anxious to promote the welfare of those dependent upon them. He trusted they would be met in a corresponding spirit, and should any difficulties arise the Houses of Parliament would not object, he felt assured, to make any alterations which were felt to be necessary.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

ACCESSORIES AND ABETTORS BILL.
  THE CRIMINAL LAW BILLS.

    COMMITTEE.
    Accessories and Abettors Bill; Criminal Statutes Repeal Bill; Larceny, &c. Bill; Malicious Injuries to Property Bill; Forgery Bill; Coinage Offences Bill; Offences against the Person Bill.
    House in Committee (according to Order).
    Bills reported, without Amendments; and to be read 3a To-morrow

PUBLIC OFFICES SITE BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that although he knew the House of Commons had a great objection to vote money for the prospective purpose of acquiring land, still he thought it was very desirable that the Government should, early next Session, take power to acquire the land upon the other side of Charles Street, and also in that part of King Street which would be required for the new offices, for Charles Street was about being widened, and if this took place there would be new buildings erected, which would cost the public to purchase five times as much as the houses which were now there.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, there was great force in the observations of the noble Lord, and the Government would certainly take the matter into consideration.
  Bill reported, without Amendment.

WINDSOR SUSPENDED CANONRIES BILL.—COMMITTEE.
House in Committee (according to Order).
Clause 2, (Appropriation of Profits of Eighth Canonry to Churches),
THE EARL OF CHICHESTERsaid, the Bill would accomplish two very desirable objects—it would increase the inadequate stipends of the Military Knights of Windsor, and augment two livings in the town of Windsor. With regard to the first object, the claim of the Knights was resisted by the Dean and Chapter, and the decision of the Master of the Rolls in favour of the Dean and Chapter was, on appeal, confirmed by their Lordships. Several thousand pounds had been expended by the Dean and Chapter in costs, and he

1821
thought some provision ought to be inserted in the Bill by which they might be reimbursed that outlay. With regard to the second object — although no one could be more glad than he was to have two poor livings increased — yet, as a trustee of the Common Fund for the augmentation of poor livings generally, he was bound to object to the recognition of a different principle by this Bill. It was contrary to the spirit of past legislation, and was opposed by all the Members of the Ecclesiastical Commission who had seats in the House I of Commons.
LORD KINGSDOWNsaid, that although on the question of law the Dean and Chapter of Windsor were right, there never was a case of greater hardship than that of the Military Knights of Windsor.
THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSthought that the claims of the parishes from which the tithes were derived ought to be first considered.
THE BISHOP OF LONDONsaid, the Bill introduced no new principle. It might be a somewhat novel application of Church property, but it would be establishing a precedent which he should not be sorry to see followed in other cases, for he regretted that at the passing of the Cathedral Reform Act the interests of the inferior members of the cathedral establishments had been somewhat neglected.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the Master of the Rolls and their Lord-ships' House had decided that no costs should be allowed, and to provide for the repayment of their costs to the Dean and Chapter would be in fact to override the judgment of two competent tribunals by force of an Act of Parliament.
THE EARL OF HARROWBYmoved the omission of the Clause.
On Question, their Lordships divided:— Contents 25; Not-contents 10: Majority 15.
Clause agreed to; Bill reported without Amendments.
Amendments made; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

NEWSPAPERS, &e., BILL.
Lord REDESDALEsaid, a noble Lord opposite (Lord Stratheden) had given notice for to-morrow of the second reading of this Bill. It was one upon which the House had already expressed an opinion and which bad been rejected by their Lordships, and it was out of the question
1822
that they should be called upon to discuss it again at this late period of the Session. Lord STRATHEDEN was not aware that the forms of that House permitted a discussion on a Bill the day before that on which it stood for a second reading, and did not join issue now with the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees on points where he entirely differed from the noble Lord in the assertions he bad hazarded. As regards his intentions on the Bill, having given notice for to-morrow, he should state them at that time.
House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till to-morow, Eleven o'clock.