Sitting of 18 June 1860

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Parochial Assessments; Stipendiary Magistrates; Inland Bonding; Union of Benefices; Trustees, Mortgagees, &c.
2° Criminal Lunatic Asylum.

BERWICK-UPON-TWEED ELECTION.

  AHSWER TO ADDRESS.
  LORD CASTLEROSSE, the Comptroller of the Household, appeared at the bar with Her Majesty's Answer to the Address.
  I have received the joint Address of the Two Houses of Parliament, in reference to the Report made by the Select Committee of the House of Commons appointed to try a Petition complaining of an undue Election and Return for the Borough of Berwick-upon-Tweed; and I have given directions accordingly for the appointment of Commissioners for the purpose of making the Inquiry prayed for by the Address.

  ANCHORS.—QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT RAYNHAMsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, Why the description of Anchor reported by the Anchor Committee of 1852 as the most approved, and now used on board Her Majesty's Yacht the Victoria and Albert, has not been generally adopted in the Royal Navy?
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, there was no objection to any officer having one of these anchors supplied to him if he asked for it.
  VISCOUNT RAYNHAM: Why are they not in general use?
  LORD CLARENCE PAGET: Because they are objected to generally by the profession. There are very few officers who do not object to the use of them.

  INFECTIOUS DISEASES.—PUBLIC CARRIAGES.—QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT RAYNHAMsaid, he would now beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, in order to prevent the serious consequences which at present result from persons suffering from infectious diseases being conveyed to hospitals in public carriages, regulations can be made enforcing the detention at the hospital of the carriages so used until certificates shall have been given to the Commissioners of Police to the effect that such carriages have been by proper and sufficient purification rendered incapable of spreading disease.
  SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, that under the existing Police Act there was no such

  561
  power as that referred to by the noble Lord, and therefore it would be impossible that any such directions could be given without further legislation by that House. He would state to the noble Lord and the House that the subject had not escaped the attention of the Police authorities, and they had, under the authority of the Secretary of State, provided a carriage for the conveyance of persons suffering from infectious complaints, and not only for their removal, but for the removal of prisoners and all other persons infected in any manner who might be found in the common lodging-houses, which were subject to the control of the Police. He would also take that opportunity of stating that if any parochial authority, or any person locally interested, should desire to see the carriage which had been provided by the Police, he would receive permission to do so on application being made to Sir Richard Mayne at the Police Station, Bagnigge Wells Road, Clerkenwell.

  PUBLIC BUSINESS.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, considering the advanced period of the Session and the quantity of business which still remains to be transacted I hope there will be no objection to the Motion which I have to make, in conformity with the ordinary usage, that the Government take an additional Order Day; and, as Friday is now a Motion Day, that for the rest of the Session Orders of the Day have precedence of Notices of Motion on Fridays, and Government Orders precedence of others. I hope hon. Members will have no objection to an arrangement which will tend very much to facilitate public business.
  COLONEL FRENCHsaid, he wished to know whether the noble Lord proposes to allow the system still to continue by which questions are put on the Motion for Adjournment, and by which, in effect, one Motion has precedence over all the Orders.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: That is a matter with which Government cannot interfere; it must rest in the discretion of private Members.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he would beg to ask whether any alteration will be made by the new arrangement in the position of the Savings Bank Bill, which at present stands first in the list for Friday.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: If any alteration be made notice will be given to the House either to-night or to-morrow.
  Resolved,
  "That upon Friday next, and upon every succeeding Friday during the remainder of the Session, Orders of the Day have precedence of Notices of Motions, Government Orders of the Day having priority."

PROMOTIONS FROM THE RANKS.

  ADDRESS MOVED.
  Order for Committee (of Supply read;)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. M'EVOYsaid, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, in defending a recent appointment, had stated that it would be a cowardly and shabby thing if he were to pass over an officer who was perfectly qualified for the post in his gift, merely because he held a place at Court. He was now about to afford the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of proving his ingenuousness in that remark. A practice had grown up of late years of giving an increased number of commissions to deserving non-commissioned officers, and the present Commander-in-Chief had done more in this respect than many of his predecessors. But, while men were thus promoted it was not fair that their new position should place them in circumstances of embarrassment. A man, after perhaps twenty-five years' service, on being promoted from the ranks, was not allowed to make this the ground of a claim towards a pension, though, by a rule of the War Office for which he could not find any authority, it was the custom to allow him to count half his previous service. So that a man entering the army at twenty years of age, and obtaining his commission at forty-five, would have to serve till he was sixty-five years of age, before he was entitled to retire upon full-pay. But a man at forty-five, after enduring all the fatigues and hardships of his profession, was in no condition to commence a new term of service before he could look forward to the enjoyment of a full retiring allowance. Quartermasters and paymasters —on what ground he was unable to say— were allowed to count the whole of their previous service. To the argument that the latter could not expect promotion, was to be opposed the fact that men ordinarily obtained their commissions at an age when they could not expect to rise higher than the command of a company. The sum produced by the half-pay of a captain and the investment of the price of his commis-

  563
  sion was insufficient to support him in the position to which he was entitled; and a case had come to his knowledge in which an officer who had received his promotion in the manner referred to, applied for the post of recruiting officer, for which he was perfectly eligible, but was unable to obtain it, because he was not allowed to count his former service. The cost to the State of the change which he advocated would be trifling; the aggregate amount would not, he believed, exceed the pay of one general officer.
  Amendment proposed,
  "To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She may be graciously placed to order that those Officers in the Army who have been promoted from the ranks may be allowed to reckon their previous services in the ranks, in the same manner as is now permitted to Paymasters and Quarter-masters, so as to enable them to avail themselves of the 30th section of the Royal Warrant of the 14th day of October, 1858, which regulates the retirement of Combatant Officers in the Army and Ordnance Corps,'"
  —instead thereof.
  COLONEL DUNNEseconded the Amendment, and said he was convinced that the sympathies of the House would be with those officers who, through their own efforts and because of distinguished service, had risen from the ranks. There was no army in which the expenses attaching to the position of an officer were greater than in the British army, and yet there was none in which the officers were treated more niggardly. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War would show good reason why the boon now asked for officers who had risen from the lower grades of the army should not be granted to them. It was not the rank which such men valued, but the money which would enable them to provide for their families and maintain them in the position which their good conduct had attained. The House had been told the other night of a naval officer who had refused the command of a vessel, because, as he said, he could not afford it; and he hoped that the men whose merits deserved promotion in the army would not be obliged to decline commissions when offered to them for a similar reason. Promotion ought certainly to be granted under circumstances which would render it a boon and not a punishment.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, in answer to the question which had been put
  564
  to him by his hon. and gallant Friend, that he quite sympathized with him in his desire to do away with everything which was unfair to those officers who had risen by their merit from the ranks to hold commissions in Her Majesty's army; but he thought his hon. and gallant Friend did not draw a sufficient distinction between non-commissioned officers rising to be ensigns or lieutenants, as the case might be, and those who were selected to be quartermasters and paymasters. Those posts required peculiar qualifications, and very few of those who were promoted from the ranks to commissions would be found to possess those special qualifications. The peculiar advantages given to all officers who rose from the ranks should also be considered. He (Mr. Sidney Herbert) confessed that he was not certain that it was always a very great advantage to a man to be raised from the ranks; and experience had shown that although we should always keep that reward open, by which we might hope ultimately to attract a better class of men into the army, yet he believed that, in the majority of the cases, the officers so promoted regretted their promotion. Look, on the other hand, to what were the advantages which were given to a man promoted from the ranks compared with those of an officer who possessed a commission and had not been in the ranks. In the first place, a rigid examination was exacted from every officer who was preparing for a Queen's commission, and it was laid down that it must be certain that he was possessed of a certain amount of education and attainments. In the case of an officer promoted from the ranks, that rule was broken through entirely, for otherwise no man could be promoted from the ranks. Therefore, a great exception was made in favour of a man who was promoted from the ranks. When first he had the honour of filling the office of Secretary of State for War a man promoted from the ranks had out of nothing to purchase his whole outfit. A change had been made, and now £150 was allotted to every man who was promoted from the ranks in the cavalry, and £100 to every man promoted to an ensigncy in the infantry. A commissioned officer was allowed nothing. Here, again, was an advantage which the officers who had not risen from the ranks did not obtain. Further, the officer from the ranks had the advantage of being allowed to count two years in the ranks as one towards his

  565
  pension or retirement as a commissioned officer. [Mr. M'EVOY: On what authority?] He could not quote the authority; but it was their universal practice at the Horse Guards, in the case of officers who rose from the ranks, to allow two years in the ranks to be counted for one of commissioned service. Here, again, was a very great advantage. If, again, they referred to the case of paymasters and quartermasters, they would find that in that service, which, as he said before, was of a peculiar nature, the service in the ranks was not counted unless there were so many years' service with the commission. The difference between the two was not so great. An officer who rose from the ranks, if he wished to dispose of his commission, was allowed £100 for every year he had held it. That did not apply to the commissioned officers, but the rule was made in favour of men who had risen from the ranks. He did not see that they could safely extend the rule so as to allow noncommissioned service to count as commissioned service beyond what was already permitted. He thought they had gone as far as it was expedient, by allowing two years to count for one, and giving those other and great advantages which it was wise and politic to give to non-commissioned officers promoted from the ranks. It should be recollected there was a very great difference between non-commissioned and commissioned service. One was the service that obeyed, the other the service that commanded. The service that commanded required the higher qualifications; the whole distinction between the ranks rested on the additional value given to the officer above the man. He did not think he would be justified in holding out a prospect that any alteration such as had been proposed would be made.
  COLONEL DICKSONconsidered that the right hon. Gentleman had overstated the case against officers who rose from the ranks, but who did not fill the position of either paymaster or quartermaster. He denied that they required less qualification than either paymasters or quartermasters. On the contrary, they generally became adjutants, and that was a post which required not only the greatest qualification but the greatest tact and manner, because it was on such an officer that the efficiency of a regiment mainly depended. The £100 allowance spoken of was given in lieu of the right to sell out, but it in no way compensated for that right; for if,
  566
  for example, he held a lieutenant's commission for three years he got £300 for it on retiring, though its value was £1,100. The great advantage which the non-commissioned officer derived from his promotion was the value of the commission, and that advantage he should have the power of realizing to the fullest extent by being allowed to sell out like other officers.
  COLONEL LINDSAYremarked that, as a general rule, the service wished to give an opportunity to non-commissioned officers, as far as practicable, to rise from the ranks into the position of commissioned officers. It might not be usual for noncommissioned officers to desire to obtain commissions, or that a very large promotion from the ranks was desirable; but he would leave it open to every man to have an opportunity of rising. What they wanted was that the officer should be allowed to count his service as a non-commissioned officer, in order that he might come with the greater rapidity to that position when he could retire on full pay. They also wished that service as a noncommissioned officer should be allowed to count towards the sale of the commission, that he might receive the full price of it for the benefit of his family if he had one; if he had not, the officer generally remained in the service till he advanced another step, and then retired on full pay. He thought this was a small boon to be asked for by those officers, and one that might be granted without any injury to the finances of the country. It was not likely they would ever have a larger infusion of such officers, but it was very desirable to give the opportunity of rising to as many as possible.
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHrose to call the attention of the House to the stoppage of a portion of a cavalry officer's pay for forage; and said that this point had been taken up by both the late and the present Secretaries at War, but that the Treasury had in each case refused to entertain the question. He condemned the practice as anomalous and contradictory. If the Government had refused to find forage for the horses of the cavalry altogether that would have been intelligible; but he could not understand with what consistency they first professed to give the forage and took back more than half the price by this miserable deduction. It was well known

  567
  that the officering of the cavalry had of late years become a difficult matter, as there were no fewer than thirty-six vacancies without applicants during the last year. There were several causes for this. In the first place, it was found that from the changes in the art of war, professional work was now demanded from the officers, so that gentlemen could no longer enter the cavalry as a mere source of amusement. The system of examination had also produced a discouraging effect. The next he was about to mention might appear a small matter, but he was satisfied it had its weight. Formerly it was only the officers of the cavalry that were allowed to wear moustaches, and hence moustaches were regarded as the badge of the aristocratic branch of the service; but now that all officers were allowed to wear them the prestige of the enjoyment of a particular privilege in that respect had gone from the cavalry service. Well, what was the course taken by the Government? They had taken certain steps in the right direction. They had reduced the price of commissions, and they had allowed officers to obtain their chargers from the regimental stud; but still there remained this great anomaly of which he complained. He had already mentioned that the objection to its removal came from the Treasury. He had always supposed that when "My Lords" of the Treasury decided on anything, it was at a real meeting of the Board with the First Lord of the Treasury at their head; and believing that he certainly had some difficulty in reconciling the narrow views expressed in the Treasury correspondence with that great knowledge of social life which the First Lord was well known to possess. But it lately came out, in the course of another discussion, that this Board, like some other Boards, was a mere fiction; that there was no meeting of "My Lords," and that the whole was done by the Secretary of the Treasury. That quite altered the case, for it was not surprising that a gentleman lately taken from commercial pursuits should be wholly unacquainted with the military service of the country. Some of his arguments were certainly very surprising. The Secretary at War stated that they had now to do with a less opulent class of officers, and it would be necessary, therefore, to reduce as much as possible their expenses. To this the reply was that the more the cost of the service was lowered the more the extra price of com-
  568
  missions would be enhanced, and that they must deal with this question on commercial principles. That showed a surprising want of knowledge of the world. Why, upon commercial principles no man would go into the army at all. His pay did not afford to him a reasonable annuity for the capital expended in the purchase of his commission, so that it might be said he served his country for nothing. A man went into the army for honour, for distinction, for status in society, for a few inches of ribbon or a medal, and the commercial principle was the last consideration that entered his head. He concluded by moving the following Resolution:—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, it is unjust to the Officers of Cavalry, and not creditable to the Country, that a stoppage should be made from their pay of 8½d. per horse per day for the forage supplied to the horses which they are required to keep for the performance of their regimental duty, and that it is expedient that such deduction should be discontinued in future."
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, that as the House had decided on the last Question, "that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," it was not competent for the hon. Member to move another Motion. The Question was that he do now leave the Chair.

  ORDNANCE SURVEY.—CIVIL ASSISTANTS.—OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. DIGBY SEYMOURrose to call the attention of the House to the position and pay of the Civil Assistants employed upon the Ordnance Survey, and more particularly to a portion of them, numbering about 700. Their complaint resolved itself into four distinct heads:—1. The insufficiency of pay as compared with that of the employés in other public departments. 2. The capriciousness of the mode of promotion in the Ordnance Survey, and the absence of any proper system of classification. 3. The absence of holidays, such as were allowed in other public Departments. 4. The hours of business, longer than in other establishments of the State. He had taken some trouble to put the Secretary of War in possession of the facts of the case, and had had the honour of receiving a lengthened reply; but as the right hon. Gentleman had not satisfied him, he wished to bring the matter under the notice of the House. He held in his hand a tabular list of the persons employed on the Ordnance Survey, and he found that the number of persons who received from 4s. to 6s. per

  569
  day amounted to 145, and those who received from 2s. to 4s. per day amounted to 600, although their length of service averaged from 15 to 25 years. Between those two classes were the computers and draughtsmen—a large and most useful body. Taking the whole of the civil staff, the average pay was at the rate of 3s. 6d. a day; and, as they were not paid for Sundays, as the military staff were, taking 313 working days in the year, their average income amounted to less than £55 a year. When he turned to the military staff, he found that their incomes at an average rate of pay of 5s. a day amounted to £75 a year, and if the fuel and lodging provided were taken into account, the sapper on the military staff was much better off than the civil assistant. There were 496 persons on the military staff, and out of them 116 were superintendents, who performed no daily work whatever. The House would, he thought, be somewhat surprised at the proportion which the superintendents presented to the working staff. At Southampton there were sixty draughtsmen, and these had one captain, one lieutenant, one quarter-master-sergeant, one sergeant, and two corporals. There were thirty computers and fifty engravers, who had also a like proportion of officers as the draughtsmen. There were therefore a large number of officers, embracing lieutenant-colonels, majors, captains, lieutenants, sergeant-majors, &c, who presided over a number of persons who only amounted to about 140. The proportion between those who commanded and those who served in the military department was perfectly ridiculous. A few years ago, when the sanitary survey was being taken, a large proportion of civil assistants were employed, and they were all placed under the superintendence of two officers and two assistant-sergeants. Next look at the Topographical Office in London, where there were four commissioned and three non-commissioned officers superintending twenty-two persons, involving an expense which might be largely saved to the country. He would also ask the House to consider the position of these civil assistants as compared with other civil servants in the various departments of Somerset House. Messengers and porters received from £65 to £95 a year, and clerks commenced at £90. At the War Department the commencing salaries were £90; in the Customs, £80; and in the Long Boom, £75. It was clear, therefore, that these men en-
  570
  gaged in the survey were not paid with anything like the same liberality as the Custom House and Somerset House civil clerks. In the case of these latter, moreover, there was a regular system of promotion according to merit; but in the case of those for whom he pleaded, the sergeant or corporal did as he pleased, and merit and long service had little chance of being regarded. And lastly, they had but fourteen days' holidays, while the civil service clerks had a month, and, at the same time, their daily labour was longer. He trusted on all these grounds, that the Government would take the case of these persons into consideration.
  MR. VANCEsaid, he could corroborate the general statements of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Southampton. He wished to know whether those men were to be entitled to the benefits of the Civil Service Superannuation Act.
  Mr. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, the hon. and learned Gentleman's statement was founded on an entire misconception as to the facts. In answer to his statement he would refer the House to the authentic Report of the number and cost of the men, civil and military, employed upon the Ordnance Survey, from which it would he seen that the real numbers did not tally with those given by his hon. and learned Friend. In calculating the cost of the military staff he had thrown in the cost of the superintending officers; but, in calculating that of the civil staff he had omitted the cost of supervision altogether. The best answer to his observations was, perhaps, the fact that the allowance made to civilians was sufficient at all times to secure an abundant supply of labour—that they never found men leaving the service, while there were always others anxious to obtain such employment, and upon the whole they were well paid. The hon. and learned Gentleman had quite misrepresented the fact as regarded the officers. If they had nothing to do but look after the men, it would be undoubtedly true that they were too numerous and overpaid; but so far from that being the case, they had enormous numbers of plans to inspect and manage, and were responsible for the expenditure of considerable sums annually. It should be remembered, in instituting any comparison between the allowances of soldiers and civilians, that the latter had only specified duties to perform, and were not liable to be removed at any mo-

  571
  ment to some distant scene of war or to colonial service. It gave him great pleasure to find that he admitted the correctness and value of the survey, but he could assure him he was altogether mistaken in the case which he had submitted to the House. With regard to the duration of the holidays he had only to observe that those men had risen by their merit from the position of day labourers, and that there were very few people of their condition in life who could obtain even a fortnight's inaction every year.

  ITALY.—FOREIGN ENLISTMENT.—THE PAPAL ARMY.—OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. EDWIN JAMESsaid, he rose to call the attention of the House to the fact of the enlistment now going on in Ireland to furnish the Pope with troops in Italy; and to ask the Government what measures they have adopted, or intend to adopt; and what official communication they have received upon the subject. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that the question was one of some importance, and was exciting considerable interest and some surprise among the people of this country. He had in his possession extracts from Irish journals of all shades of politics: some of them rejoicing at the defiance with which the proclamation issued by Her Majesty's Government had been treated, and all stating the enormous number of recruits who were leaving Ireland to join what was called "The Pope's Own." He took it for granted that in the present state of Europe Her Majesty's Government must be extremely anxious that it should be known whether they had power to prevent this flagrant violation of the law, or whether it was to be assumed that they tacitly sanctioned the proceedings which were going on. As long ago as the 28th of May, it was stated in various newspapers that Waterford and other seaports of Ireland had been made ports for what was sometimes called "emigration," but what was sometimes openly admitted to be the embarcation of recruits for the Pope's army. In the first instance it was put forward by the priests, who had taken a large part in this recruiting, that these persons were mere emigrants to Italy. Afterwards it was said that they were going to join the municipal army in Italy; and it subsequently appeared that they were enlisted for the purpose of recruiting the army which was to defend the Pope in
  572
  case of any collision with his subjects. Her Majesty's Government had issued a proclamation, with a view to prevent the infraction of the law; and no sooner did it appear than the conductors of this enlistment hurled defiance at the Ministry. The newspapers boldly stated that these recruits were intended for a foreign army; and in one instance he believed a justice of the peace was present at their embarcation. This had been going on for some weeks; and some of the recruits had been presented to the Pope, had performed an obeisance to which he did not intend to refer in any terms of ridicule, and had been thanked by his Holiness for having joined his army. All this was in flagrant violation of the Act of Parliament, because he would show the House that not only the enlistment, but the procuring, or endeavouring to procure, the enlistment of persons to serve in a foreign army was an offence against the statute. The law upon the subject was as clear as law could be. In earlier times the youth of Britain were fond of going abroad to advance their interests, and frequently formed the guards of foreign sovereigns. Thus Louis XI. had his Scotch guard, as the Bourbons had their Swiss one. The first Act of Parliament upon the subject was passed in the year 1605, about the time of the Gunpowder Plot. That statute the 1st James I., cap. 4—commenced with a curious recital, which had been copied into subsequent Acts:—
  "That, forasmuch as it is found by late experience, that such as go voluntarily out of this realm to serve foreign princes, states, and potentates are, for the most part, perverted in their religion and loyalty by Jesuits and fugitives, with whom they do there converse."
  And it enacted that any one who went out of the country without having taken the oath of allegiance to His Majesty should be deemed guilty of felony. There was another Act of the 9th of Geo. II., cap. 30, entitled "An Act to Prevent the Listing of His Majesty's Subjects to serve without His Majesty's Licence," which enacted that if any subject of His Majesty should enlist himself, or procure any other person to enlist, or should even attempt to procure any other person to go beyond seas, with an intent to be enlisted, to serve any foreign Prince without His Majesty's Licence he should be guilty of felony, and should suffer death without benefit of clergy. These were Acts of great severity; they had now become to a certain extent

  573
  obsolete; and he admitted that he could find no case in which they had been enforced. The Act of Parliament which was now in force was the Act of 59th Geo. III., cap. 69, called "The Foreign Enlistment Act." It was introduced by Sir Samuel Shepherd, at that time Attorney General, and supported by Mr. Canning, and was intended to prevent persons going to assist the States of South America, which were then at war with Spain. The question was much discussed in that House, but ultimately the Act passed, and its provisions had been enforced. It might be suspended by an Order in Council; and in the year 1835 it was so suspended, in order that the subjects of the English Crown might enter the army of Queen Isabella of Spain, who was then at war with her uncle, Don Carlos. The matter was discussed in the House of Commons, the suspension of the Act being opposed by Lord Mahon, but after a debate the Order in Council was sustained. The law was now distinct and clear that it was an offence to enlist in the service of any foreign prince for any purpose whatever, and that those who procured or incited to that enlistment wore guilty of a misdemeanour punishable by fine and imprisonment. The proceedings which had been carried on lately in Ireland had excited attention both in this country and Europe, and it was important that the Government should state whether or not they had power to put a stop to this enlistment. There could be no want of evidence. Numerous journals had published their defiance of the Proclamation. The priests had enlisted the men in the broad daylight; a magistrate had countenanced their embarkation: they had a depot in London, in the neighbourhood of Tower-hill, and the offenders might be caught in flagrante delicto. Her Majesty's Government professed to observe neutrality abroad, and it was therefore important that they should state whether it was the will or the power which they wanted to stop the embarkation of the persons who were engaging in what was called a "crusade,"—an enterprise which had all the folly and none of the sublimity of the crusades which were preached by St. Bernard and Peter the Hermit,—and should inform the country what steps they intended to take in the matter. At present it appeared as though the Government were unable to prevent a violation of the law, or that they were making no serious efforts for its preven-
  574
  tion. A good deal was said upon a previous occasion about a subscription for Garibaldi, and the Solicitor General had given an opinion as to its legality with which some other lawyers did not agree: but whatever doubt might exist as to whether the contribution of money to that subscription was or was not an offence at common law, there could be no question that the enlistment of persons to serve in the Pope's army, without a suspension of the Foreign Enlistment Act by an Order in Council, was a direct violation of the Act of Parliament. He hoped that he had brought this matter before the House with temper and moderation. He respected the religion of every one; but religious enthusiasm might carry men too far, and he thought it was the duty of the Government to let the House know whether they had the power to put a stop to this enlistment, and whether or not it was carried on with their sanction and approbation.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he had no complaint to make of the temper in which his hon. and learned Friend had brought this subject before the House. He should best respond to the spirit in which his hon. Friend had acted by confining himself to a simple statement of what were the facts of the case as far as they were known to him, and what had been the conduct of the Government. About the 26th of May last the Government were first informed that persons were being engaged in Ireland, under pretence, as it was at first stated, of going to make a railroad at Ancona, but, as was suspected and believed, for the purpose of their being enrolled in the army which was being raised for the service of the Pope. The Government immediately acted upon that knowledge, and caused, not a proclamation, but a police notice, containing an accurate statement of what was the law on the subject of foreign enlistment, to be universally circulated throughout the length and breadth of Ireland. Why it should be ridiculed he did not know; it was a simple statement of the terms of the Act of Parliament, and was intended to inform the people what they were prohibited by law from doing, and what the penalty would be if they continued to do the acts so prohibited. At the same time orders were given to the constabulary to enforce the law. Those orders had never been in any degree enfeebled by any instructions or want of instructions of the Government, and they

  575
  were the orders under which the constabulary had acted from that day to the present. The Government had received continual reports from the constabulary officers, and those reports had been regularly submitted to the legal advisers of the Crown. He was very glad to have to reply to his hon. and learned Friend, because, as no one was better acquainted than he was with the proceedings of courts of law, no one could better appreciate the difference between statements in newspapers and the evidence necessary to sustain a prosecution. All he could say was that when statements had reached the Government which afforded the least reason to believe that further inquiry might furnish evidence which would sustain a prosecution, he had always directed that further inquiry should be made, more especially if the evidence was against, not the individuals offering for service, but the much more culpable persons constituting themselves agents for obtaining recruits for the Papal service. There had not, however, been a single case in which the legal advisers of the Crown thought it possible that the Crown could institute a prosecution. The Government had, therefore, not taken any such step, and he was quite sure that his hon. and learned Friend well knew that to institute a prosecution upon statements in newspapers, upon rumours, and upon hearsay evidence which could not be substantiated in a court of justice, was not the duty of the Government, and would not conduce to the honour and dignity of the Crown. With regard to a depot in London, he believed that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department was without any evidence to justify him in instituting a prosecution in London as the Irish Government up to the present moment were without evidence to justify them in instituting a prosecution in Ireland. What they had done was this —they had given fair notice of what were the prohibitions of the law, and what were the penalties by which those prohibitions were supported. They had given instructions to the police and to all the authorities under their command to maintain the dignity of the law and to support it. They had not had any evidence on which it was possible to institute a prosecution, and they had certainly not taken the course of bringing into court a case founded upon rumour or newspaper testimony, which would recoil on the authority of the law
  576
  in the shape of a series of ridiculous failures, and bring the Crown and Government into contempt.
  MR. VINCENT SCULLYunderstood the law to be correctly laid down by the hon. and learned Member for Marylebone, that all persons who procured or incited others to enlist in a foreign army were guilty of misdemeanour. He thought it very unfortunate that such a state of things should arise, and that any persons, whether from religious or any other enthusiasm, should be tempted to desert their own country—if indeed the Irish people could be said to have any country to desert. He was not prepared to deny that numbers of persons, who would be excellent subjects if kept at home, were going out to take part in supporting the temporal dominion of his Holiness the Pope. He had seen notices to that effect in the newspapers, and he had just cut out one extract. [Laughter.] Ex uno disce omnes. It was from the last number from Dublin of the Catholic Telegraph, giving the account from one of these young men of their proceedings:—
  "I must certainly admit, however, that up to the present moment we have been treated as gentlemen—travelling by sea as first-class passengers, by rail as second class, and putting up at the very best hotels, where we always obtained the choicest bill of fare the house could afford. We visited every place of amusement, and every object worthy of notice as we passed through England, Belgium Prussia, Saxony, Westphalia, Bohemia, Austria, and Italy; in short, everything we wished for that money could procure we had it for asking."
  That was more than they could get in Ireland. They happened to get into trouble about passports, and were put in prison for three days; but the writer said:—
  "In fact, we were never so sorry for anything as at being discharged from custody, as we were very well content with such prison diet as roast fowl, green peas, and a pint of wine for breakfast; soup and maccaroni, meat, (roast and boiled) and a pudding, also washed down with a pint of wine, for dinner: coffee and bread at 7 o'clock; and supper—a repetition of the breakfast—at 10 P.M. We were not at all pleased at being released from such punishment, I can assure you."
  He then went on to speak of the low price of cigars, and concluded with "Remember me to all the boys." In an extract from the Clonmel Chronicle it was stated that eleven very fine fellows started by the railway en route for Rome; and a little lower down that fourteen more emigrants for the same locality arrived at the terminus. "What is rather curious is

  577
  that none of them had any baggage." Twenty-five more left Clonmel on Tuesday, making 50 altogether. In another extract from the Tipperary Vindicator it was stated that 70 athletic young fellows left Thurles. "They all stood 6 feet or thereabouts, and one was 6 feet 5½ inches." Then it was stated that 70 more left, and then 50 of the bold Tipperary peasants; then 40 from Ballingarry and Killenaule; then 25 from Clonmel and 100 from Sligo, making altogether 355. It was very unfortunate that they should leave the country. They were very much wanted at home. They would be much more useful at home, and it would be very easy for the Government to keep them at home if they set the right way about it. The Wanderer, of Vienna, published a letter from Ancona, which said, "The Irish have had a fight among themselves." They could have had that at home. "And they wounded some of the gendarmes who interfered to separate them. The delegate has hitherto treated the Irish like princes, and their pretensions are in consequence unbounded. Every soldier insists on having his own room, table, &c. It is to be feared, after all, the Pontifical Government will be under the necessity of inviting these gentlemen to go home again." He took advantage of a recess occasioned by the Reform Bill, and there being nothing to do here of any consequence, to go over to the county of Tipperary and to see the peasantry. Many of them possessed of as good reasoning powers as hon. Members, without at all disparaging them. They asked, "Would he subscribe to Garibaldi?" He said he would not give a shilling to Garibaldi. "Would he subscribe to the other side?" he was then asked, and he said he would not give a shilling for either side to succeed, but he would give a large sum to stop them from cutting each others throats. Who knew anything about the affairs of Italy? He did not believe that any one knew which side was right. He understood, or at least he ought to understand, Ireland, but if the Orangemen and the Ribbonmen were flying at one another he would not give a shilling that either should succeed. He believed that both would be in the wrong. He would give a large sum of money to put both down, and he believed it was very much the same state of things in Italy. Gentlemen in that House were also carried away by their enthusiasm. Their Protestant feelings were excited.
  578
  They were for putting down the Pope, and constantly urging the heads of the Government to meddle in affairs which did not concern them. No Government, whether Sardinian, Neapolitan, or Papal, believed that this Government were observing the principle of non-intervention with regard to Italy. He had asked the noble Lord some weeks since whether the feelings of Roman Catholics would be respected by a Ministry exclusively composed of Protestants, and whether he was prepared to recognize the principle of absolute non-intervention, more especially as regarded the dominions and sovereignty of his Holiness the Pope. The noble Lord took every occasion to insult his Holiness. They had a specimen last week, when the observations of the noble Lord, with his calm, benignant temper, were infinitely more insulting than the famous "mummeries of superstition" in the celebrated Durham letter. He had never said a word in defence of the rights of Roman Catholics, which he would not also say in defence of Protestants, or any other denomination, if he thought they were being persecuted. What the Roman Catholics wished for was simple justice, and that the Government should not use their power and influence in either direction. It was the persuasion that the Pope and his subjects were not getting fair play, and that the weight of the English Government was thrown into the balance against them, that brought on these enlistments. Not very long ago he was endeavouring to enforce the duty of non-intervention, in a quarrel which he could not understand, on an intelligent peasant in Ireland, when all of sudden the man turned the argument against him by saying, "What do you say, then, to the proceedings of your friends Lord Palmerston and Lord John Russell?" Being thus indentified with the two noble Lords, he could only quote in English what the noble Viscount (Viscount Palmerston) said the other night in Latin,—
  "Pudet hæc opprobria nobls
  Et dici potuisse et non potuisse refelli."
  —"'Tis true, 'tis pity, pity 'tis 'tis true."
  Or, in other words:—
  "We blush that such disgraces
  Can be flung into our faces;
  And that we are not able
  To say they are a fable."
  After the language used by the noble Lord the other evening, it was impossible to say that the Government were impartial. Re-

  579
  ferring to the Pope and the King of Naples, the noble Lord said:—
  "Those Governments forget that they are them selves the real and original authors and instigators of those movements, and if their prayer were granted and steps taken to promote and accomplish the object they desired (unless, which is very unlikely, they were prepared to alter their own courses), the first, most effectual, and only necessary step would be their own removal."
  By firebrand language of this description, in the House of Commons, the Government prevented the influence of men of moderate opinions like himself having any effect. He certainly had a right, he thought, to claim that title. He had exercised his own independent judgment on these matters, and he believed that he was the only Roman Catholic Member, not in the Government, who had not yielded to the pressure put upon him—and as much pressure had been put upon him as on any one, —to say that the maintenance of the temporal dominion of the Pope was essential to the exercise of his spiritual jurisdiction. Such incendiary language used by the Government paralyzed the action of moderate Roman Catholic gentlemen. Though the Government was entirely Protestant, it ought to respect the feelings of a large portion of the Queen's subjects. This kind of interference was never exercised with regard to Protestant Powers. Had the English Government ever interfered with the terrible bigotry of Sweden, or with the Russian persecutions of Roman Catholics? It was always used against Roman Catholic Powers for Protestant purposes. So long as this system continued, so long would the state of things described by the hon. Member for Marylebone continue. Let the Government desist from the use of such language as this, and let them come down here to-morrow and pass a good and just Land Bill, and then, and not till then, Irishmen would stop at home.
  MR. M'MAHONsaid, he must complain that, though the Government had expressed their readiness to prosecute people in Ireland for aiding the Pope, they had shown no readiness to put down other violations of the law which were taking place in this country, namely, conspiracies in this country to assist Garibaldi and his friends by subscriptions. There could be no doubt that Garibaldi and his friends were in open rebellion against a Sovereign who was in alliance with this country, and no lawyer would say that to meet openly and publicly to get up subscriptions to as-
  580
  sist Garibaldi in overturning the power of an Ally was an indictable offence by our laws. The Scotch law repressed offences against the State with a much stronger hand, and this was an offence clearly punishable by the Scotch law; yet only the other day a meeting was held at Edinburgh, attended by men of the greatest mark in that City, at which Resolutions were passed expressing sympathy with the Sicilians, and a subscription was opened. Among the subscribers were such men as Lord Kinnaird, William Patrick, Esq., Lieutenant-Colonel Somerville, and Commissary-General Wemyss. These gentlemen had as openly violated the Scotch law as the Irish law was violated by the recruits. He certainly thought that if such things were allowed to be done against a Sovereign Ally, it would be a gross inconsistency if Irishmen were prosecuted for assisting a Sovereign Ally. Apart from the merits of the contest both sides ought to be treated with perfect impartiality. He was surprised that the Government should treat as it did the Court of Borne, for there was not a single Ally of this country to whom we were more indebted for long, true, and faithful service. He therefore trusted the Government would act towards the See of Borne with the same impartiality that it would exhibit towards the more powerful of its Allies.

THE WEEDON INQUIRY.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he wished to call attention to the proceedings of the Weedon Commission, and to the expense incurred by it; together with the Report of the Auditors of the Treasury on that expenditure. He had obtained a Committee some years ago to inquire into the working of that establishment, and into the mode of taking contracts on behalf of the Government. The Committee was reappointed in the next Session, when he had no longer a seat in the House; but as some defalcations became apparent in the course of the Inquiry, the House interfered, and a Royal Commission was appointed to inquire into the circumstances. But, instead of committing that investigation to military men, or even to officers connected with the Civil Service, gentlemen were chosen, of undoubted respectability, who had, of course, done their best, but who, he ventured to think, were not qualified for conducting the Inquiry.

  581
  The Commissioners appeared to believe that Mr. Elliot in discontinuing the system of book-keeping enjoined by the orders of the Department to which he belonged had only committed a trivial offence; but if these books had remained in existence it would have been impossible for the disastrous consequences which they all lamented to have occurred. Considerable doubt existed whether the Commissioners had not exceeded their powers, and a lengthened correspondence with the War Office ensued; one of the steps taken by them being to withdraw their accounts from the hands of Mr. Commissary Adams and his staff of military assistants, and to place them in those of Mr. Jay, a professional accountant. The Bill of that gentleman came to a sum exceeding £8,000; to which was to be added the preliminary expenditure by Mr. Adams, and the cost of the inquiry itself. This would raise the cost of the inquiry to something like £12,000. The claim was referred to the auditor, Mr. Arbuthnot, who commented warmly upon it, and maintained that half the amount demanded would be ample compensation. The objections to the claim of Mr. Jay, who was a member of the firm of Quilter, Ball, and Co., were—first, that instead of the accounts being furnished in October, as Commissary Adams had undertaken, they were not delivered till the July following; the expenses, according to the plan of Commissary Adams, would only have been £900, instead of the enormous charge which was now preferred; and, finally, the auditor declared that the accounts as presented by Mr. Jay had no practical value whatever. Some very ludicrous mistakes were pointed out. For instance, in totting up a certain number of thousands of pairs of boots a quantity of bootlaces was included to make up the requisite total— the value of the boots being 8s. 10 d. a pair, whereas the bootlaces only cost about 1s. a thousand. It was for the country to say whether this demand, preferred under such circumstances, should be acquiesced in. The Military Estimates, and particularly the civil portion, were becoming so enormous that the country must pay attention to the subject. It was no use talking in the abstract of economy unless the House entered practically into the consideration of the question. Were some 30,000 men, and a condition of defences which might be gathered from the demand of £12,000,000. to render them efficient-results adequate to a war expenditure of
  582
  £15,000,000? The country could not afford to go on with this rate of expenditure; more attention must be paid to the details of expenditure. It was not by debates on such small subjects as promotions from the ranks, that any improvement would be effected; it was the larger subjects that required investigation. Better organization in the whole system was required. Let them look at the order and economy that pervaded every branch of the French establishments, and take a lesson therefrom.
  MR. TURNERassured the House that it was with very great reluctance that he intruded himself upon their attention for a few minutes, because he was not one of those who was in the habit by needless talk of hindering the progress of public business. But having been engaged during four months of a recess after a hard Session in the investigation to which the gallant Colonel had alluded, and having given his best attention to the subject, without any prejudice, but with a sincere desire to bend his mind to a difficult subject, he did not expect that he should be spoken of by the gallant Officer as having involved the country in needless expense. He received a request from the then Secretary for War that he would allow himself to be nominated as the mercantile member of the Commission, and he was told that there would be associated with him one of the police magistrates and an officer of the army of nearly fifty years' standing. He consented very reluctantly, but not until he had consulted Sir Benjamin Hawes, one of the Under Secretaries for War, who said he thought the inquiry might be over in a fortnight. He informed Sir Benjamin Hawes that if he supposed he should go through with an inquiry of that sort in a fortnight he had mistaken his man; that he was determined that a searching investigation should be made; that he should enter upon the inquiry with no prejudice for or against the War Office or towards the old Colonels, who were desirous, he believed, of going back to the old system of clothing the army—he did not allude to the gallant Colonel who had brought forward this Question. He added that he had no prejudice either against the army contractors, but he was determined to have a thorough investigation; and he accepted the office. When the Commissioners arrived at Weedon, it found Commissary Ge-General Adams, with eight Commissaries and a staff of clerks, making out an ac-

  583
  count. But the Commission, at its first meeting at Weedon, informed the authorities at the War Office that they would not be at all satisfied with any examination of the accounts by the officials of the War Office, and that it was their intention to have an independent accountant. The Commissioners were informed that Mr. Commissary Adams with about twenty clerks were investigating the accounts; but he (Mr. Turner) said, notwithstanding that, they would have an independent accountant, and he himself put this question to Mr. Ramsay, a high official in the War Office:—
  "I suppose it will be satisfactory to the authorities at the War Office as it will be to us that there should be a thorough investigation of the account-keeping at Weedon by an independent man, who has no connection with the War Office?" and the answer was, "Quito so."
  As the evidence was daily reported to the War Office, and not a word was ever said to stop them from having an independent inquiry, he said that from the outset of the inquiry they had the sanction of the War Office for such an investigation. When they went down to Weedon they found things much in the state they were likely to be. There was Mr. Commissary Adams there with his clerks investigating the accounts, and at the close of a statement in writing which he gave to them prior to giving his evidence, he said,
  "It must be observed that even the accounts thus prepared"—he was referring to the accounts he was engaged upon—"cannot be doomed satisfactory public accounts until it has been thoroughly ascertained in the course of the examination at the War Office that all purchases and all transactions with contractors and the army packers in Mark Lane have been properly accounted for. It must also be observed that the present accounts are drawn up from a mass of documents, a very large number of which are defective, one-half of them without any examination whatever, and there is no guarantee that they represent all the transactions at the depôt."
  Now, how could such an account be deemed satisfactory? When they came to examine him he was asked this question:—
  "You have had considerable experience no doubt in accounts. Did you ever in the course of your experience find anything so disgraceful in the mode of keeping accounts in any stores?"
  And the answer was,
  "There has been no keeping of accounts at all." "Do you not think that if any private establishment acted upon the system of non-bookkeeping, it would in a short time be in the Court of Bankruptcy?" And his answer was, "I think it is very likely they would."
  Again he was asked,
  584
  "Are the vouchers to which you have alluded not valid vouchers?" And the answer was, "To some of them there are no signatures. There are 700 or 800 objectionable vouchers altogether."
  When the Commissioners returned to London they made a representation to the War Office that they could not be satisfied with accounts made up of such unsatisfactory materials, and that it would be better that the accountant who had been engaged up to that time on the system of keeping accounts should go into the matter in a mercantile manner; and there was no question about it that they had the consent of the then Secretary for War (General Peel) to have that investigation. Commissary General Adams and all his Staff were dismissed, and the books were placed in the hands of the first accountants in London—Quilter, Ball, and Jay—and they went through the accounts to the time that Captain Gordon took charge of the depôt at Weedon. They had made a very heavy charge—too heavy he thought—but the investigation extended through all the transactions at Weedon since that depôt was established, and they had at all events accomplished this matter: they had shown that after all there was no very great defalcation of stores at Weedon, and that the articles for which the Treasury paid were delivered. The accounts, after all the labour bestowed upon them, were not quite satisfactory, inasmuch as there were some litle discrepancies in the balances; but on the whole he was satisfied there had been a valid accounting for the articles at Weedon. He was one of the Commissioners, and to him the inquiry was satisfactory. No doubt they had been blamed by many parties for the lenient way in which it was said they had dealt with the authorities at Weedon; but it should be remembered that the Commissioners were not appointed to support any system or party in office, but were appointed for the purpose of examining the accounts and books; they had done so diligently and faithfully, and had presented a most faithful Report. In this labour they had sacrificed their time, and two of them at least had suffered in their health. He thought it was now very unfair that the Commissioners should be blamed, and strange that they were not better supported by the authorities. The Commission was issued during a Conservative Government, and possibly there might have been some disposition to look into the bad system of keeping the accounts by their predecessors. But since the present Government had been

  585
  in power they had not looked upon the Report of the Commissioners very favourably, and recently the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury had referred to "that unfortunate Weedon Commission." No doubt it had been unfortunate to many; to colonels, contractors, and the Government officials; it had also been unfortunate to the Commissioners, who, after having devoted a long time to a laborious and troublesome investigation, had not, at least so far as he was concerned, received the slightest thanks for what they had done. He would, however, appeal to the House, if he did not to the Government, to say that they had performed their duty faithfully, honestly, and well.
  MR. MONSELLsaid, that having paid the utmost attention to the labours of the Commission, he was of opinion the hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the House, as well as his Colleagues, had displayed during the inquiry a great deal of patience and industry, and merited the thanks as well of the House of Commons as of the country. His principal object in rising was, however, to call the attention of the Secretary for War to the circumstance that in a paper which had been placed in the hands of Members that morning an item was set down of £105,000 as the Vote for the purchases of cavalry horses. Now, it appeared from the same paper that when, in 1858, two new regiments were added to the cavalry the sum voted for the purchase of horses was only £81,000, and in 1859, which might be considered an ordinary year, £55,000. Why it should be £105,000 for a similar purpose this year, when no augmentation in the number of men was about to be made, he was at a loss to understand.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERT, adverting to the subject of the Weedon Inquiry, said, he should not detain the House by entering into it at any length, inasmuch as it had on a former occasion been fully discussed, and inasmuch as he—not having been in office at the time of the appointment of the Commission—could speak upon the question with which it had to deal with comparatively little authority. He must, however, assure the hon. Gentleman behind him (Mr. Turner) that he was mistaken in supposing the Government did not entertain a due sense of the services which the Commission had gratuitously rendered to the public, in endeavouring, at a very great cost of time and labour, to elucidate details of a very complicated cha-
  586
  racter. It was, he believed, the fact that at the time when the great consolidation of some of the public Departments took place the capital mistake was committed of the War Office imposing their system of accounts on the Ordnance, instead of the Ordnance imparting their system to the War Office; for the Ordnance system was much more efficient for purposes of this kind. His predecessor in office had, he might add, in his opinion, made a very good selection of Gentlemen to serve on the Commission, and had very properly left the inquiry in their hands. If a larger expenditure had been incurred than would appear to have been justified, still it must be borne in mind that the question must not be measured by money results, for the sum ascertained to have been lost by the malversations at Weedon amounted, he believed, to little more than £250. Still there had been very great neglect there, and the confusion of accounts had since been rectified.
  In answer to the remarks of the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Monsell), he might observe that he thought he could show him some documents which went to prove that cavalry horses lasted longer in this country than in foreign services, al though they were more worked. The hon. Gentleman said that no augmentation of the cavalry was in contemplation for the present year; but then there were two regiments from India which must be re-horsed; while it should not be forgotten that there had been an advance in the price of all descriptions of horses.
  COLONEL GILPIN, in reply to some observations of the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Turner), stated that having been a Member of the Contract Committee, he did not think there was a particle of evidence to show that the Colonels were desirous of returning to the old system, and having observed that one advantage of that system was that the loss, if the clothing were rejected, fell upon the Colonels and the contractors instead of on the public, as at present, bore testimony to the admirable quality of the clothing supplied this year.
  SIR HENEY WILLOUGHBYdrew attention to the difficulty which lay in the way of ascertaining the exact mode in which the sums voted under the head of Army Estimates were expended. The House had not the slightest assurance that the Estimates as voted, corresponded with the expenditure. Comparing the

  587
  present Estimates with the expenditure for the army for the year ending the 31st of March, 1859, he found that the latter furnished no sufficient guide in dealing with the subject. Last year, for instance, the money which was expended for the army was £12,527,000; the money voted £12,011,000; the expenditure being £516,000 in excess of that amount. This was a most important fact; but there was something still more formidable that required attention. Under the Appropriation Act the War Office might, with the consent of the Treasury, apply the surplus in the case of one grant, to a different purpose from that which had been originally contemplated. The consequence was, that when once a sum of money exceeding the wants of the country under the particular head under which it was voted, was granted by the House of Commons, the Government were in a position to do as they pleased with any surplus that might remain by applying it under any other head; and he found that last year no less than £1,281,000 had thus been spent without any authority from Parliament in connection with various items. The Vote for the Militia was a striking example of this evil. In 1859 the sum voted for the Militia was £159,000, but the sum expended was £881,000. If the House was to exercise any control over the public expenditure, they must insist on Estimates prepared with the greatest care and accuracy, and alter that clause in the Appropriation Act which authorized deviations in the application of sums voted for one purpose to another without distinct sanction to each departare. If Estimates were loosely framed, the time they spent in discussing them must be entirely thrown away. He could not sit down without expressing his belief that the Member for Manchester and his colleagues, who had acted as Commissioners on the Weedon inquiry, had met with very scant justice. A more laborious Commission, or one which had performed its duty more faithfully, never sat. It was extremely unfortunate that so much exertion should have ended in a question as to who should pay an accountant's bill, although he must say that the account was a most extravagant one. But that in no way could derogate from the honourable and patriotic manner in which the Member for Manchester and his colleagues had discharged a very odious duty.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSquite agreed with the hon. Baronet that the mode of getting
  588
  up the Army Estimates was most unsatisfactory. He had known instances in which hundreds of thousands of pounds had been taken from one Vote and applied to anther without Parliamentary sanction. A Vote that was unpopular might be put down at £100,000 less than was known to be required, while another Vote that was popular was estimated at so much more, the balance being afterwards applied as the War Office thought proper. [Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT: With the consent of the Treasury.] No doubt that was so; but the principle was indefensible. Three or four years ago the then Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir George Lewis) promised that the system should be altered; but no change whatever had yet taken place. He hoped the time was not far distant when the House would take the power from every Department to apply the amount of one Vote to the discharge of another; and he should be glad if the hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham would bring in a Bill to do away with the very objectionable practice. As to the consent of the Treasury that was a mere matter of form, and it was given without investigation.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHthought the hon. Baronet and the Member for Lambeth complained of the Army Estimates without reason. They were given in great detail; they occupied 152 pages, and it was impossible that Estimates could be drawn up with more accuracy. As to the appropriation of the balance of one Vote to make up a deficiency in another, that was a matter for which the Treasury was responsible, not the Secretary for War. With regard to the rate of cost of cavalry horses in this and foreign countries, his conclusion did not entirely accord with that of the right hon. Gentleman, and he hoped the Secretary for War would endeavour to curb this expense as much as possible. He might add that the sale of horses from regiments was not in all cases conducted with a due regard to economy.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, he must also complain of the manner in which the surplus of one Vote was applied to another without the authority of the House. It had the effect of inducing the House to grant the money without much discussion, and Estimates were prepared in order to meet the views of the House; for instance, an Estimate not likely to be relished by the House was made as light as possible, while on the other hand an Estimate not likely to be questioned was made high,

  589
  thus the Estimates did not represent the sums truly required for the objects mentioned. This question was discussed three Sessions ago in a very animated manner, and it was then understood that the course should not be pursued any longer. He thought the House ought to exercise some control over the matter.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.

  SUPPLY.—ARMY ESTIMATES.
  House in Committee: Mr. MASSEY in the Chair.
  (1.) £131,224, to complete the sum for Departments of Secretary of State for War and General Commanding-in-Chief.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, if his hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for Chatham (Sir F. Smith), would compare the details of the Estimates of 1859 with the actual expenditure, he would find they were not so accurate as he evidently imagined them to be. In that year the House had voted £182,977 for the same purpose as that now under discussion; but the Government had actually spent £192,000. He wished the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sidney Herbert) would explain whether the same variation was likely to exist this year between Estimate and actual expenditure; because, if so, it was really a waste of time to discuss the Estimates.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, it appeared that the cost of the Departments of the Secretary for War, and of the Commander-in-Chief, was considerably larger in amount than before the union of the offices; and the present Estimates were considerably in advance of those of last year. The figures for the War Office were this year £9,510; for the Office of the Commander-in-Chief, £1,705; between £10,000 and £11,000 together. The Secretary for War had declared himself responsible for the acts of the Commander-in-Chief. He doubted, however, whether he had much influence of the high personages at the head of the army. He ought to be responsible for all.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHsaid, the reason of the increase of the Estimate of this year was, because the Estimate of last year was found insufficient, owing to the increased demands upon the Staff, which was increased accordingly; and for which, therefore, an amount was required to be voted. He would take that occasion to make a few remarks on a Return which
  590
  had been presented to the House as to the temporary clerks in the War Office. There were 125 of them. But that arrangement had not been made by the right hon. Gentleman the present Secretary for War. It appeared that one gentleman, fifty-eight years of age, was appointed in 1847, and, although he had performed thirteen years service, he was only a temporary clerk. Then there were fourteen clerks who were thirty-five years of age, who had been temporary clerks for six years, thirty-three for five years, and others for different periods. He thought that the time had now come when these gentlemen should be permanently employed; inasmuch as, without permanent employment, men were not very zealous in the performance of their duties. He trusted that this temporary system of employment was not to go on for ever. The cost of clerks had been raised from £15,000 last year, to £21,000 this year; and he thought it was desirable to know how long this increase was to continue?
  COLONEL GILPINwished for an explanation of the charge for three classes of messengers.
  COLONEL DICKSONsaid, it was a misnomer to call these temporary messengers, as they appeared in the Estimates regularly every year.
  COLONEL SYKESpointed out an incongruity in the charges for the head clerks in the Commander-in-Chief's department. The first clerk received £1,000 a year; the second, £800; but the third, £975, or £175 more than his senior in office. Besides this, the third clerk was this year to receive £50 above his salary last year, while there was no augmentation in the case of the second, clerk.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTbegged, in the first instance, to refer to the remarks of the hon. Baronet, the Member for Evesham, with regard to the payment from the surplus of one Vote into the deficiency of another. That could not be done, except under the sanction of the Treasury. The hon. Member for Lambeth said it was done, no doubt, upon the authority of the Secretary of State. On the contrary, the Treasury exercised a very rigorous supervision; and he frankly admitted very properly so; although they had refused him to do things which very often, he thought, might be advantageous for the public service. But he thought they were right in maintaining the rule, that although there might be an addition made from the surplus

  591
  of one Vote to cover the deficiency of another, on a work sanctioned by Parliament, it must never be done on a work not sanctioned. When Gentlemen talked of laying on the table an estimate of £15,000,000, and expected that they could make every Vote come right, it was expecting what no man could do with his private income.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY: My right hon. Friend quite misunderstood me. I said when any variation occurred, you might come to the House of Commons and get a Vote.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, the House might not be sitting, and to wait for the Session would be too late. Last year there was a sum of money applied to increase the amount of machinery for making rifle guns at Woolwich, which was a surplus upon another Vote. He thought it an urgent service, and was most anxious to have the means of producing rifle guns for the navy. If he had waited until Parliament met, a great deal of valuable time must have been lost. At the same time he admitted that the Treasury properly exercised a strong practical supervision. On the other hand, it was clear that, with an estimate of nearly £15,000,000 upon a service scattered all over the globe, for the army in every colony, possession, or protectorate, of which the accounts did not come in until after the financial year had closed, no human foresight could produce a perfectly exact estimate. Practically what would be thought of the public officer who, upon a question of that kind, would refuse to take the responsibility of diverting the surplus of one Vote to cover the deficiency of another, when the service was an urgent one, which he would be properly blamed, if he had not undertaken to execute. With regard to the excess of the Estimates, he found that every year there had been an expectation of a reduction in the number of temporary clerks, &c, and yet the reduction never was made. The Estimate was for what the establishment actually cost last year; and although it appeared to him that there might possibly be a diminution in the amount of writing and correspondence connected with the War Office, yet he liked to be on the safe side. With regard to the temporary clerks, he was entirely of opinion with the gallant Officer (Sir Frederick Smith); and the War Office, in fact, made a representation to the Treasury that it would be much better, instead of that enormous number of temporary clerks, to have a larger establishment, and
  592
  get rid of the employment of temporary clerks to such an extent. It was not wholly a disadvantage to the public service, because they ascertained, by reports from the different branches, who should be allowed to compete for the permanent establishment; but he frankly admitted that the system was carried to excess in the War Office. The Treasury had appointed a very able Committee to examine into the subject, and very properly refused to give any answer until the Committee had reported.
  COLONEL NORTHasked, if the age of the clerks interfered with their competing?
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, if they stayed beyond a certain age it did; but those who were most fit had the advantage of competing before that time arrived. The number of messengers employed, arose from the enormous amount of business going on. He did not believe Gentlemen had any idea of the vast increase in the business last year. It was not caused merely by the additional force; but he believed the enormous facility given for writing, and the habit of writing, which was spreading everywhere, and pervading the whole population, increased the business of most Government offices to an extent which was almost inconceivable. He was not able to explain at present the cause of the larger salary of the second Assistant Secretary in the Commander-in-Chief's office.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, the appropriations ought to be printed with the Estimates, and not in a separate paper.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, it was the excessive amounts of the appropriations that he complained of.
  Vote agreed to.
  (2.) £249,005 to complete the sum for Manufacturing Departments, &c.
  COLONEL NORTHasked why the officers of the military store and barrack department and the clerk of the works should not be placed in Vote 3, and obtain the advantage of being placed upon the permanent staff of the army.
  MR. MONSELLhad observed that it was proposed to give the superintendent of the small arms department a special allowance of £300 a year in addition to what he had hitherto received. Of the great ability of that hon. and gallant officer, Colonel Dickson, and the manner in which he discharged the important trust committed to him in that department, he could not speak too highly; and he perceived that the amount of money expended in

  593
  these factories was £200,000 a year. But he likewise saw that £100,000 was expended on the Royal laboratory, and he thought that the gallant officer who presided over this department ought also to have an increased allowance. The duties of his office were heavier, and also perhaps more important than those of the small arms department, and he (Mr. Monsell) could not conceive why he did not receive a like increased allowance to that of the other gallant officer. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would give such an explanation as would show that he was not dissatisfied with the manner in which the gallant officer performed his duties.
  COLONEL GILPINcomplained of the injustice of allowing only 1½d. a day for lodging money in a garrison town; and asked how the money had been expended which was voted some years ago for the furnishing of the mess-rooms and public rooms in barracks.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSwished to know why we continued two military officers, one at Liège and the other at Solingen, at a salary of £700, besides their military pay. He thought that, with our small-arm factory, and with the aid of the Birmingham gunmakers, we could obtain small arms enough in our own country without resorting to foreign factories. It had been stated that we sent over our plans for rifles to Liège during the Russian war, but that we did not get a single rifle from them—they were, in fact, made over to the Russians.
  COLONEL LINDSAYwished to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the position of married women in regiments. It was admitted that a certain number of women was necessary in a regiment, and permission was given to soldiers to marry to the extent of 6 in 100, for whom accommodation was found in the barracks when that was possible. But accommodation for married people in barracks was rare, and the lodging-money, to which allusion had been made, was far too small. He therefore suggested that the position of these married women should be more recognized than it was, that rooms in the style of model lodging-houses should be attached to barracks for the accommodation of the married soldiers, and till that was done some increase in the allowance for lodging-money should he made. If this were done, the men would not be driven to resort to the very worst part of the town.
  MR. MONSELLdenied the statement of the hon. Member for Lambeth that the Russians got hold of a single musket manufactured for us during the late war. The rifles manufactured at Liège were from 5s. to 6s. cheaper than those manufactured at Birmingham, and though he believed that the Birmingham guns were quite equal to those of Liège, yet it did so happen that in every trial between them the Liège guns beat the Birmingham ones.
  CAPTAIN JERVISexpressed his belief, in spite of what had been said, that the Birmingham rifles would hold their own against the world. As to the lodging-money, he thought the question was one of a much broader nature than had yet been started—namely, whether they should throw obstructions in the way of the soldier marrying, or whether he was to be left free to marry, as the citizens in all countries in the world were. Within the last ten years 3,000 soldiers had been admitted to the hospitals at Woolwich whose services to the country would not, in all probability, have been thus lost if, like other citizens, they had been allowed to settle down quietly.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHsaid, the hon. and gallant Member ought to know that in France no man was allowed to marry till he had gone through his allotted period of service as a soldier. Every commanding officer knew that his greatest difficulty on a march, or still more on being ordered on foreign service, was the incumbrance of soldiers' wives with their baggage. It was a life of unhappiness, of trial, and of privation for the women, and the more the soldiers were dissuaded from marrying until nearly the end of their service the better would their service be performed.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he was on the whole averse to giving military rank to store-keepers. He thought there were too many quasi military men with military rank already. With regard to the salaries of Major Boxer and Colonel Dickson, he would be the last man to depreciate the services of the former, for he believed a more energetic officer was nowhere to be found. But the services of Colonel Dickson covered a vast deal of ground. He could suggest, however, to his right hon. Friend that he would not do better than leave Major Boxer in the hands of the Government—his merits would be sufficiently appreciated and rewarded. As to the lodging-money, it was a very difficult and a very expensive question. That money

  595
  varied on different stations, Woolwich, he believed, being one of the worst; and he had, therefore, taken a vote of £30,000 this year, which he proposed to expend on the construction of barracks for married men at Woolwich. He would not enter into the married soldiers' question. It had been often discussed, and had never been brought to a satisfactory conclusion; but this he might say, that as now all the men were on short service—they entered the army at eighteen and might leave it at twenty-eight—there was not the same hardship in refusing permission to marry as when the men entered the army for life. As to the officers who were at Liège and Solingen, he would remind the hon. Member for Lambeth that we had at present large contracts executing there, and the officers referred to were there for the purposes of inspection. As to the barrack furniture, they were trying the experiment of supplying some of the barracks with furniture, for which the officers would be charged a percentage, and he hoped it would be successful.
  Vote agreed to.
  (3.) £550,234 to complete the sum for Wages of Artificers, &c.
  SIR JOSEPH PAXTONcalled the attention of the House to the great increase that had taken place in the number of artificers employed. Last year there were 8,000, now there were 13,000. He hoped that when the time same for dispensing with their services, they would not be turned adrift in masses, as they were at the close of the Russian war.
  MR. F. PEELsaid, he feared that the columns in the Estimates which proposed to state the number of persons employed in the several manufacturing departments did not give accurate information. Under the head of laboratories it appeared that in the current year there were to be employed 1,154 persons more than last year, and if they supposed that their wages on the average would be £40 each, that would require an increased sum of about £40,000 or £50,000; whereas the sum taken this year was less than last year by £2,400. In the carriage department he observed that the increase in the number of persons employed over last year was 350, while the decrease in the cost was as much as £10,000. He also wished to ask a question with respect to the carriage department. As far as he understood there was a difference between the revised and the original Estimates. There was an in-
  596
  crease in the force of 2,000 men, costing about £240,000 additional, which sum was met by the reduction of £80,000 each on three Votes—one the Miscellaneous Vote, one the stores Vote, and a third in this, the carriage department. He wished to ask what was the work which it was proposed to execute by means of the sum of £80,000, which it was now found possible to dispense with?
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, it was true that with an increase in the number of hands, there was a diminution in the amount of the Vote; and that circumstance had arisen from the fact that many of the persons employed were boys, who were engaged in the manufacture of small-arms ammunition, and who, of course, did not receive a high rate of wages. The reduction in the carriage department had been effected in the following manner. It was found that carriages could be constructed more rapidly than they were required; but it was deemed advisable not to dismiss any of the men, but merely to diminish the amount of overtime.
  Vote agreed to.
  (4.) £210,000 to complete the sum for Clothing, &c.
  COLONEL DUNNEcalled attention to the confusion at present existing in the accounts in the War Department with regard to clothing. Clothing ordered last April had not yet been delivered; and he should propose the Vote be suspended until some explanation had been afforded. He wished to get the actual expense of the clothing which did not appear.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHsuggested that next year the number of men should be placed opposite the amount voted, so that the Committee might know whether there had been economy in the Clothing Department or not.
  COLONEL DUNNEasked what was the actual cost of clothing for the Line.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid the cost was £4 5s. per man.
  Vote agreed to.
  (5.) £851,377 to complete the sum for Provisions, &c.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHsaid, he could not understand why the barrack furniture should cost so much every year, as it lasted a long time, and the soldiers themselves had generally to pay for the repair of it.
  SIR JOSEPH PAXTONasked for an explanation of the increase in the Forage and Fuel Departments.
  COLONEL DICKSONhoped that the Se-

  597
  cretary for War would take steps to give cavalry officers their forage free, and also to protect the men from the awful mulctings to which they were subjected on the score of barrack damages.
  COLONEL NORTHasked why commanding officers of cavalry regiments did not receive command money like infantry officers?
  SIR WILLIAM RUSSELLsaid, the cost of the repairs of barrack furniture was more than met by the charges made on every regiment, and he was afraid this was only to be accounted for by some great waste in the service.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, if the officer in charge, when taking up the barracks, would only govern them properly, it would be impossible for improper charges to be afterwards brought.
  COLONEL DICKSONsaid, there never yet was a regiment in which, at the end of every month, deductions for barrack damages were not made from every man's pay.
  Vote agreed to.
  (6). £1,365,088 to complete the sum for Warlike Stores.
  MR. MONSELLasked why an additional sum of £300,000 was this year required for the purchase and repair of small arms, the amount this year being £615,051, instead of £322,592. In the Vote for iron ordnance, shot, shell, &c, there was also a very great increase. He wished to know what portion of that amount had been applied to the manufacture of Armstrong guns, and how much in the purchase of smooth-bore guns, to be afterwards rifled either on Sir William Armstrong's or some other patent. He understood that none of the smooth-bores which had been rifled had given satisfactory results, and that some of them had burst.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHremarked that the sum asked for Miscellaneous Stores in the present Estimate was £713,438, while last year it was only £621,354. When so many other items were given in detail he thought this was a case in which fuller information might be given.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEalso referred to the largo increase in the Miscellaneous Estimates, particularly those for India. He also wished to know when the Returns ordered of the account between the Indian Government and English War Office would be laid upon the table.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, it appeared that 120,000 rifles had been supplied to the
  598
  Volunteers. Now, these were very delicate weapons, and he wished to ask whether any steps had been taken for ensuring their safe custody in their present hands.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, it would be impossible to print in the Estimates all the items of which the Vote for miscellaneous stores was composed; but it might, perhaps, be desirable to class them under certain heads. The large sum which was charged for small arms arose from the circumstance that last year the trade did not deliver the whole number they had contracted for, and there was, therefore, an unusually largo delivery this year. Besides the Estimate for 1,000 Armstrong guns, they had also made provision for the manufacture of a number of smooth-bored guns of heavy weight, for which, under certain circumstances, rifled ordnance could not be substituted. He thought the arms were safer in the hands of the Volunteers than of ordinary recruits: moreover, the Volunteers wore bound to repair any damage which was done to the arms placed in their hands. The payments from the Indian Government for stores were now made more rapidly than in former times; but the settlement of the general military accounts with India could not be completed until after the lapse of three or four years.
  COLONEL SYKEScomplained that, although on the whole Estimate there was an increase of £950,000, the House was put in possession of no information to show that it was necessary.
  SIR JOSEPH PAXTONsaid, he had been informed that the Armstrong gun had cost the country, directly or indirectly, a sum of £1,000,000. Now, he had no objection to make to that outlay if the arm was likely to perform the services that had been supposed. But he was anxious to know whether the right hon. Gentleman had turned his attention to the Whitworth guns, which had proved to be most efficient weapons. With respect to the Whitworth rifle, he wished to state that he had received a letter from Mr. Whitworth, in which that gentleman declared that he could manufacture that instrument at Enfield as cheaply as the rifles which were at present made there; and as the Whitworth rifle had stood the test of all competition it was desirable that that declaration should be put to some practical test. No doubt Sir William Armstrong had expended a very large sum of money in bringing his gun to its present perfec-

  599
  tion: but so also Mr. Whitworth had expended £30,000 or £40,0000 on his. Now as Mr. Whitworth must turn this outlay to account for some country or other, he hoped it would be for England, and that the War Office would retain Mr. Whitworth as they had Sir William Armstrong. If our Government did not purchase Mr. Whitworth's invention, he had no doubt some other country would.
  MR. MONSELLcondemned the manner in which the gun-factory at Woolwich was at present governed. The gallant officer who was formerly at the head of the factory had been removed to make way for Sir William Armstrong.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTexplained that Sir William Armstrong was Director of the Rifled Ordnance, not of the whole gun-factory, and that his appointment to that office and the removal of Colonel Wilmot were quite distinct.
  MR. MONSELLbelieved the appointment of Sir William Armstrong necessarily led to the removal of the gallant officer. The objection to the present arrangement was, that if the gun of Mr. Whitworth or of any other inventor proved to be superior to that of Sir William Armstrong, and were purchased by the Government, the manufacture of it would have to be confided to a rival inventor. Mr. Anderson, he knew, was the resident head of the factory, but still he was subordinate to Sir William.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHwished to know whether it was proposed that there should be a trial for range or accuracy of the Armstrong and of the Whitworth guns.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, Mr. Whitworth had been in communication with the Government; he had, indeed, received considerable assistance from it. Mr. Whitworth proposed two things,—that the Government should try his gun, or buy it; on the whole, the Government had decided on buying the gun without trying it. If on trial the Whitworth gun should prove the superior arm, Mr. Whitworth would supply a little additional machinery to the Government manufactory which would enable the Government to make the gun without difficulty, Mr. Whitworth receiving a certain royalty on each gun. As to the Whitworth rifle, it was certainly a very good weapon; but it cost £10, while the Enfield rifle cost only £2 18 s. The Government must hesitate before it decided on adopting the more costly article. The
  600
  life of a rifle is estimated to be about ten years; and there should always be in store 500,000; to replace the arms now in use by the Whitworth rifle, and have the proper number stored in reserve, would cost £10,000,000. Mr. Whitworth was trying a less expensive process of making the rifle barrels, by which, if it succeeded, a great advantage would he gained. He thought the Government would be acting unwisely if, when the present weapon was in advance of that of all other armies, it changed it for one more than three times its cost. It had been stated that the Armstrong gun was very expensive, that it had already cost the country £1,000,000; but he believed it would cost less at last than at first. The brass 12 pounders that originally cost £250, were now manufactured for £90 and £100. Part of the Vote for ammunition was applied to shot and shell for the Armstrong gun; it was very expensive, as were other shells and fusees; but the destruction caused by the Armstrong shells was much greater.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHsuggested the expediency of putting a certain number, at all events, of Whitworth rifles, into the hands of our troops. The British soldier was the most costly one in Europe, and he also performed the largest amount of duty; and it would be true economy to arm him in the most efficient manner.
  LORD FERMOYunderstood the Government had decided on first buying the Whitworth gun and trying it afterwards. Surely the merits of the gun would be an ingredient of the price. To ordinary minds it seemed a strange way of doing business.
  COLONEL SYKESthought it not quite decided whether the Enfield rifle was the best weapon. It fired rapidly, but he understood grew foul very rapidly also. He was not aware whether the Whitworth rifle was liable to this defect in the same degree.
  CAPTAIN JERVISsaid, he doubted whether the Whitworth rifle might not foul even more quickly than the Enfield, since the diameter of its bore was smaller.
  Vote agreed to.
  (7.) £206,500, Civil Buildings.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHasked for explanations relative to the total estimated cost of the store establishments at Fort Touraille, at Guernsey and Alderney, amounting altogether to £30,000, and £15,000 of which was for the present year. He should like to know how it came to pass

  601
  that it would cost so large a sum, which in itself was sufficient to construct a small fort. At Woolwich Arsenal there was also a proposed charge of £2,000 for a new painters' shop, £3,000 for a cart and waggon shed, £8,000 for a landing and shipping shed, and £12,000 for a new magazine establishment. There was also £50,000 taken for a school of gunnery at Shoeburyness—which was about the price of a small fortress. Unless satisfactory explanations were given on these points he thought the works ought not to be undertaken.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, it was necessary that the store establishments at Fort Touraille should be surrounded by a defensive inclosure. The charge for the new painters' shop might seem considerable, but it was to cover a larger space, and when they remembered what a large amount of painting had to be done it could not be considered excessive. The waggon shed would be found convenient for the accommodation of the carts of the military train. The shipping wharf was also indispensable for the new magazine establishment. It would effect a great saving, as it would form a permanent magazine, and supersede the necessity of sending the powder by floating lighters up the river. As regarded the school of gunnery at Shoeburyness he had no intention whatever of stopping the progress of the works. The school was for the instruction of our troops and artillery force, and the money could not be better expended. It was an institution from which the army would derive the greatest benefit. He should be sorry to see the Vote curtailed, as it would prevent them from going on as rapidly as possible.
  Vote agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £707,607, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of Barracks, at Home and Abroad, which will come in course of payment during the Tear ending on the 31st day of March, 1861, inclusive:"—
  COLONEL NORTHtook occasion to ask whether in the new hospital at Netley it was intended accommodation should be afforded for the lunatic soldiers of the army? While upon that subject he should wish to draw the attention of the House to the case of a poor soldier who had become a lunatic in consequence of wounds he had received in the service of his country. The case, which had occurred at Rochester, had come on for hearing before the mayor.
  602
  This man was set adrift in the streets of Chatham with a non-commissioned officer in plain clothes to watch him. But suppose he had done some one an injury? It was disgraceful to this country to treat thus a soldier who might have lost his reason from sun-stroke, or from wounds received in the service of his country. He thought the overseers of Rochester quite right in refusing to maintain all the lunatics discharged from the military hospital. He had sat upon the Committee for inquiring into the sanitary arrangements of the army, and there was no point on which the Committee were so unanimous as on the recommendation that there should be a lunatic asylum for the army; and the Committee, after a full consideration of the subject, recommended that a portion of the hospital at Netley should be set aside for lunatics. Sir J. Liddell told the Committee that in the navy a sailor was taken care of from the moment he was seized until he was restored to reason. One of the Inspectors-General of the army said he found that when a lunatic soldier disobeyed the orders he received from civilians set over him he said, "I do not know you; you are not my officer, and I have nothing to say to you." If lunatic sailors were so well taken care of, why should there not also exist a lunatic asylum for soldiers?
  MR. MONSELLinquired what necessity there was for expending £120,000 in erecting a new hospital, and purchasing land at Woolwich. Even were it required, was it right to go on expending at so formidable a rate?
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, there were two items in regard to which it appeared either that the columns were not added up correctly, or else that the Estimates had been much exceeded by the actual expenditure. The estimated cost of the New Staff College at Sandhurst was £75,000. It appeared that £20,000 had been already voted, that £25,000 was now asked for, and that £40,000 was wanted to complete the college, being £10,000 more than the original estimate. Then, in the next page, there was a Vote for erecting new barracks at Chelsea. The original estimate was £140,000. The amount already voted was £120,000, the sum now asked for was £30,000 and the further amount required was £110,000. Here the estimated cost appeared to be £140,000, and the expenditure £260,000. This Vote required some explanation.

  603
  Then there was a vote for the new hospital at Netley. The total estimated cost was £292,911; the amount already voted was £285,000; the sum now proposed to be voted was £45,000, and the further amount required was £25,299. Here was an outlay of' £355,000, against an estimated cost of £292,911. Some valuable instructions had been issued by the right hon. Gentleman to Engineer officers in regard to the expense of civil buildings. An opinion was gaining ground, however, that these buildings would be better attended to by the Board of Works, which had the care of all the public buildings of the country.
  SIR JOSEPH PAXTON, seeing an item for £21,000 for gas at Aldershot, hoped it was not intended to introduce gas into the huts there. It was very undesirable, on sanitary grounds, to introduce gas into small and crowded buildings. He wished also to know whether the site for the barracks at Nottingham had been purchased, and whether it would be sufficiently far from the town to permit of exercising and recreation ground being provided for the soldiers. He did not think the Hotel at Fleetwood adapted for the purposes of barracks. Then as regarded Netley. He thought it had been one of the most mismanaged of all our public buildings. But he was bound to say that the right hon. Gentleman the present Secretary for War was to be exonerated from blame in this matter because he was the first to call attention to the matter, and to endeavour to arrest the further progress of the building on its present site. Land had first been purchased on the Southampton Water. Then money was asked for the foundations. Step by step the outlay had risen to £350,000, and no doubt it would amount to £400,000 before it was finished. It was a hospital for accommodating 1,000 men, and it would cost £400 per man, while in a sanitary point of view it was a most improper site for a hospital. He had visited most of the hospitals in the country, and Netley also, and he must say it was a miserable production. The sun hardly penetrated the long corridors, and it was internally ill-arranged. It appeared to be got up for a show in Southampton Water, and not as a hospital for invalided soldiers. He should like to know for how many men the new hospital at Woolwich was intended. Was it true that it was intended to erect brick instead of wood huts in
  604
  the various camps in the country? There was an item of £50,000 for sanitary improvements, under barrack and hospital Commissions. His only objection to this barrack expenditure was, that we did not from the first take the bull by the horns and ask for £800,000 at once, instead of perpetually taking these additional Votes.
  MAJOR HAMILTONwished to know whether the Vote for military prisons was to provide increased accommodation. He thought in the case of soldiers convicted of only military, not criminal offfences, care should be taken that they were confined in prisons where military discipline was enforced, and that they should not be degraded by contamination with felons.
  MR. PIGOTTapproved the suggestion of the hon. Member for Coventry, that the huts at Aldershot should be constructed of brick. The huts at present were not water-tight; many of them were in a very loathsome state, infested with bugs, which rendered them almost uninhabitable by either men or officers. This annoyance should be got rid of somehow. It sometimes happened that the men were unable to appear on parade in consequence of the punishment they had undergone during the previous night. At all events, the huts should be kept clean and decent. The yards also required great attention.
  COLONEL LINDSAYknew the huts at Aldershot to be in a state anything but satisfactory. They were full of fleas, bugs, and all sorts of insects. It would be a great improvement if brick huts were introduced. It was a great inconvenience that no quarters were provided for the General officer in command, who in consequence was obliged to live at a very considerable distance, and to ride ten miles every day to and from the camp. As the General officer in command (General Knollys) was about to leave that camp, he could not help observing that they owed much to him for the state of discipline into which he had brought it. He took the camp when in a state of inefficiency, and he had brought it to its present state of perfection. In doing so he had very great difficulties to encounter, which required all his firmness and all his courtesy. While he was in command of that camp the Militia were first embodied, and he had brought them to the highest state of perfection—quite equal to that of their

  605
  brethren of the Line. He wished to ask a question or two. Would the right hon. Gentleman explain, with regard to married soldiers' quarters—for which £30,000 was taken this year—whether it was proposed that these quarters should be given over absolutely with certain allowances to the married soldiers who were to occupy them, or to make them pay a certain amount for the occupation of these quarters? He agreed with what had fallen from the hon. Member for Coventry (Sir Joseph Paxton) that it would have been much better to vote a large sum at once in order to carry out barrack improvements. That arrangement would have been at once more satisfactory and more economical. He had had the honour of sitting on a Committee for Barrack Improvement, and the understanding come to was that £40,000 a year should be devoted to this purpose. There was now a sum of £50,000 taken for sanitary improvements, and the other sum of £40,000 did not appear. He hoped to learn from the right hon. Gentleman that the arrangements connected with the new barracks at Chelsea were now finally terminated.
  MR. CHILDERShoped the right hon. Gentleman would explain the item of £20,000 for the purchase of the hotel at Fleetwood, which he did not think at all suitable for a barrack. £8,000 had been spent on the Coventry barracks, and 5,000 was asked for now; and there was a large sum put down for land at York to increase the barrack accommodation there; but he wished to call attention to the case of Leeds, in the same county, which was more in want of barrack accommodation than York.
  COLONEL SYKESbegged to call the attention of the Committee to the contingencies that arose on Votes now agreed to. If they looked to column 5, they would see that very large sums would be required in future, these sums being contingent upon others now or previously voted. For gas works at Aldershot there would next year be required £11,000, a sum of £10,000 having been already given. For a new Staff College £40,000 would be required, £20,000 having been already voted, and £25,000 being now asked for more land for barracks at Chelsea, £110,000—now asked for £30,000. For a new hospital at Woolwich there would be wanted in future £105,000, the sum now asked for being £15,000. These and other sums which he might specify would
  606
  ultimately be required in consequence of sums voted this year. The fact being that the above four Votes alone would require £266,000 to complete the works.
  MR. BUCHANANasked what was to be done in reference to the proposed barracks at Glasgow? He understood that the site which had been suggested for the purpose was an inconvenient one, and that the locality fixed upon was of five times the value for which equally good ground could be procured.
  COLONEL GILPINcalled the attention of the Committee to the state of military hospitals. He believed that if a soldier was afflicted with lunacy and his parish could not be ascertained he was farmed out. He believed that this was not a satisfactory state of things, and the Lunacy Commissioners had strongly reported against the present system in reference to lunacy.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHsaid, the Lunatic Asylums at Fort Clarence and Chatham had been condemned, and a Commission recommended the purchase of a piece of land for a new asylum on the banks of the Medway, near Maidstone; but for some reason or other the purchase had not been completed, and the matter remained in abeyance. He observed that there was to be a new Staff College at Sandhurst, but he should like to know how £75,000 was to be expended for that purpose. With respect to the item of £10,000 for erecting rifle range huts at Gravesend, he could not understand how this outlay should be needed when there existed so much accommodation at Chatham. The army at large were much indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for the present Vote for married soldiers' quarters. The gasworks at Aldershot would greatly increase the comfort of the troops, who were often driven to the public-house because a party of twenty men were only allowed the light of two miserable candles to read or write by.
  SIR MORTON PETOsubmitted to the right hon. Gentleman that it would be better to remove Kensington Barracks altogether, and place them either in connection with the Chelsea Barracks or in some other situation.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he would now answer the various questions that had been put to him. In reference to military lunatic asylums he recollected that the subject had been considered by the Sanitary Commission, who had made a recommenda-

  607
  tion to the Government on the subject; and were disinclined to recommend the erection of new lunatic asylums to be managed by Government authorities. He believed that it was better for the military lunatics that they should be placed in well-regulated private asylums supervised by the Lunacy Commissioners. He had no great faith in Governmental management of an asylum of this description, and particularly on this ground—that they had not a staff of men educated for that special purpose. It was no hardship to send military lunatics to private asylums, for the friends of persons in a better station of life preferred sending them to such places, and he believed that the lunatics there were well treated. As to the hospital at Netley, he did not think that the building had been spoken of in terms a bit too severe. He himself protested against the plan when it was first suggested, and a Commission of which he was a member reported against it. But the House did not support him in his objections. The truth, however, was that the building at Netley was commenced before public attention was directed to constructions of this kind. It was quite true that military hospitals were not well adapted for their purpose; but if from that statement it was inferred that civil hospitals were one whit better, the inference was quite wrong, for there were some of the large hospitals in London that would cap anything that existed in the worst military hospitals. The Government were now building barracks that would make incomparably better hospitals than many of those now in existence; for instance, the barracks for the Guards at Chelsea. He believed that they would be excellent barracks, but he was sure they would make incomparably better hospitals than the generality of the Metropolitan hospitals. Netly Hospital had been very expensive in its construction, and the expensive part of the building rendered it unfit for a hospital. There were long-corridors with deep rooms with windows at the end facing the North East, and no side ventilation; whereas, now that common sense was being applied to these subjects, it was well recognized that the proper treatment of the sick required the greatest possible admission of fresh air. The late Secretary for the Treasury opposite (Sir Stafford Northcote) had pointed out some difficulties in reference to military buildings, and said, "Why do you not go to the Board of Works and let them
  608
  build for you, or why not go to a civil architect?" Now, the fact was, that wherever the Engineers had built barracks in competition with civilians they had built them both better and cheaper than the civilians. That they should build them better was but natural, seeing that they were better acquainted than civilians could be with the habits and requirements of soldiers. In the time of Lord Panmure barracks wore built by competition, and the result was this:—The Infantry barracks at Devonport were built at a cost of £70 a man; those at Preston at £80 a man; those at Gosport at £91 a man; those at Aldershot, the cheapest barracks they had, at £51 a man; and those at Berwick at £96 a man. The tenders by civilians for the infantry were £140 per man, another £200, and another £212. For the cavalry in the same proportion, £195, £196, and £198. The Staff College was the next thing alluded to. At the Staff College there was accommodation for forty officers, each officer having a sitting-room and small dormitory; accommodation for forty-one servants and eighty-one horses, with libraries, hall of study, lecture-rooms, &c. All that, of course, was a serious addition to the expense of the building.
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, in his day the Staff officers used the room of the cadets.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, that was quite true, but it was intended to employ Sandhurst more extensively, where young men were to pass their time in order to go through the army. It had been observed that in some cases that the figures did not tally in the Estimates. One or two of the differences were obviously misprints. In the case of the London and Chelsea barracks the total estimated amount for the building was £140,000; and the sum of £120,000 which was taken last year was for the site alone, but he was happy to say that it had been obtained for a great deal less money. Another case was that of Gravesend. The sum stated as being spent last year was £17,000 in the purchase of land, and in that case of course the figures did not tally. With regard to the Euston Hotel at Fleetwood, that was intended not for a barrack, but to be a duplication of the establishment at Hythe, as the latter place was already overdone, and it had been represented that a similar establishment in the North would be advisable, and that this hotel could be easily converted into

  609
  officers' quarters. York and Nottingham were in the same position; a small sum had been taken for additional buildings to each. Both were cavalry barracks; and the Government thought it better to have a few large barracks than a number of small ones distributed over the country, as it was obviously much better for discipline and in all other respects, and was more economical. At Leeds the barrack was in a bad situation for the purpose, and it was a question whether it was not better to sell the site, which was valuable for other purposes, than to spend more money upon it. At Edinburgh estimates had been put forth from time to time for the purchase of a site for barracks, but the modern Athenians objected to spoiling the picturesque appearance of the neighbourhood, and put forth a design for a building of a highly ornamental character—one something resembling that House—which would cost a very large sum of money, but they did not propose to furnish the additional money that would be required to carry out their plan. He thought, therefore, it was better to give up the barracks at the Castle, and to look for another site outside the town. At Glasgow it had been proposed to purchase a site upon which had been erected a lunatic asylum; but, although very ornamental, the building was not suited for barracks, and therefore he thought it would be wise to look out for a site outside the town. Woolwich Hospital had been referred to, but he hoped that at least the Estimate for that hospitals would be left untouched. The garrison there was continually increasing, and the choice was between building new barracks or a new hospital. The present hospital was well fitted for barracks, and it was proposed to build a new hospital on a more eligible site for the purpose. It had been said that the improvements in barracks and married quarters were not carried out with sufficient rapidity; but there was immense pressure for various expenditure, and caution was necessary. He found that 2,327 barrack rooms and 349 hospital wards had been already ventilated, besides various other sanitary improvements, so that it could not be said the authorities had been idle or dilatory.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that he understood that there was a gas company at Aldershot that had offered to supply gas on very liberal terms to the Government. He had been informed by disinterested parties that gas could be supplied to the
  610
  barracks at Aldershot far more advantageously than the Government were likely to supply it themselves. It would be satisfactory to hear from the right hon. Genleman if that point had been considered.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he believed at this moment the subject was under consideration. It was a question whether the Government should build the works and have them worked by contract.
  GENERAL UPTONcomplained of land having been taken near the quarters of the Guards, which did not leave the men space sufficient to fling a quoit.
  LORD WILLIAM GRAHAMasked of what material the barracks at Hong Kong were to be built, and whether the necessity for their construction arose from the Chinese war.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTreplied that it had been proposed to remove the troops at Hong Kong to a higher level, and a few huts had been erected as an experiment, but he could not say what material would be used.
  SIR FREDERIC SMITHthanked the right hon. Gentleman for the handsome manner in which he had spoken of the Engineer officers employed in public works, more especially as the memorandum issued some time ago had given great pain to them.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he thought it desirable that where there was any alteration from the original Estimate, attention should be called to it by a marginal Vote. He referred more particularly to the Vote for the Staff College.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he never knew money thrown away in a worse manner than that £70,000 for the Staff College. He thought the Staff College one of the greatest pieces of extravagance of the day. Qualification never was a reason for getting employment on the Staff, and he believed (having been in the College himself) that in twenty years not more than sixteen officers from the College had been employed. He wished, also, to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the Vote of £5,000 for gymnasiums at the Curragh, and £10,000 for rifle ranges. £5,000 ought to be enough for twenty gymnasiums. They were distributing rifle arms in all directions; was it proposed to prepare rifle ranges for all branches of the army and the Volunteers as well? He wished to know what steps were being

  611
  taken towards procuring ground for the construction of these rifle ranges.
  MR. AUGUSTUS SMITHcalled attention to the various Votes for purchases of land mentioned in the Estimates, as, for instance, in the case of a hospital at Woolwich, and of a battery at Glasgow. He thought they ought to have specific details of the lands purchased and the sums paid for them as separate items.
  MR. HENLEYregretted to hear the decision which the right hon. Gentleman had announced with regard to the treatment of lunatic soldiers. The condition of such persons in what was called the hospital at Chatham was as little satisfactory as that of the inmates of any similar establishment in the country. He understood that the right hon. Gentleman now proposed to take these unfortunate persons from the hospital at Chatham and scatter them through the various private asylums. He ought, however, to remember that the Legislature had compelled the various authorities in counties and boroughs to take the pauper lunatics out of such places, and to provide accommodation for them. The manner in which a poor lunatic soldier had been turned out in the neighbourhood of Chatham, in order to raise a legal question as regarded the parochial authorities, was not a good sample of Government treatment of these poor creatures.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he had not spoken of an intention to do anything. He had spoken of the existing practice, and in doing so had not said that the men removed from Chatham were scattered in private asylums throughout the country. They were removed to one asylum.
  MR. BERNAL OSBORNErequested an explanation respecting a sum of £5,000 taken for the erection of a gymnasium on the Curragh.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERT: Not for the Curragh only, but for gymnasia at the different stations.
  MR. BERNAL OSBORNEthought these gymnasia totally unnecessary, and his experience of them was that they were places at which men became ruptured and received injuries which unfitted them for soldiers.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, the Government sent an officer to Paris and Berlin to inquire into the system of gymnastics in use there, and it was found that the French had paid particular attention to gymnastics for the purpose of developing the strength and activity of their soldiers.
  612
  The system gave wonderful power to men who were not naturally very athletic or vigorous, and it was determined to adopt it to a moderate extent in this country. Of course, if men were allowed to frequent these gymnasia without proper control they would be liable to accidents; but, in point of fact, they would never use them except at slated hours, and under the eye of an officer who was competent to direct their exercise, and who would see that they did not expose themselves to unnecessary risk. The French soldiers subjected to this training were able to clear formidable palisades, to climb walls where there seemed to be no hold, and thus acquired a development of the muscular system which could not be attained by ordinary exercise. With regard to the question put by the hon. Member (Mr. A. Smith), it might be desirable for the future to distinguish in the Estimates between the cost of land and of buildings.
  COLONEL LINDSAYsaid, it was most important to provide soldiers in and about their quarters with means of recreation, which at the same time developed their muscular power. Some years ago the late Colonel Hood established a gymnasium for the use of one of the battalions of Guards. It was under proper supervision; to the best of his belief, but one, if one, accident occurred there, and the training they received added much to the physical efficiency of the men.
  MR. BERNAL OSBORNEpersisted in thinking this sum of £5,000 an unnecessary expenditure. Soldiers did not like any exercise which assumed the shape of drill. If you wanted to give them exercise, let them play at cricket, or any other healthy amusement of the kind. He should move the reduction of the Vote by this sum.
  COLONEL PERCY HERBERTwas surprised that a Gentleman who had once been in the service should oppose this Vote. If there was one thing more desirable than another, it was to give soldiers plenty of occupation, and to keep them out of the pothouse.
  MT. BERNAL OSBORNE: The hon. Gentleman has convinced me. I shall divide upon this Vote.
  COLONEL KNOXasked what the right hon. Gentleman intended to do about the barracks at Chelsea. The plans of the barracks had been modified and altered until they had become extremely expensive, while in other respects he believed

  613
  the alterations to be for the worse. Was it proposed to begin these barracks at once? ["Divide!"] The hon. Member who called "divide" represented a northern constituency, and cared nothing about the soldier except to get as much out of him as possible. He stood there, however, as a representative of the army, and would not be put down by a mercantile man in any such way.
  MAJOR PARKERsaid, there was an item of £10,000 for rifle ranges. If you began to pay for these things for the Volunteers, the Rifle Volunteer movement would lose its present character.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTreplied that these ranges were purchased for military stations, and not for Volunteers. The plans of the Chelsea barracks had been submitted to military men, who had thought highly of them. A Vote was asked for on account of them, and tenders were on the point of being taken for their erection
  MR. CONINGHAMunderstood there was to be a removal of depots from Woolwich to a situation further northwards, and yet buildings appeared to be proceeded with at Woolwich at a rate very alarming in respect to the public purse.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, that though some depôts of arms and ammunition might be removed from Woolwich, that place would still continue a very great military station, and the head-quarters of the Artillery.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSobserved, that there were several items for making roads and drains, amounting in all to a large amount. If the soldiers were employed on that work and paid for it they would be better occupied than in gymnasiums.
  MR. PIGOTTsaid, he had been pointed out, particularly by the hon. and gallant Member for Marlow (Colonel Knox), for some observation he was supposed to have made; but if the gallant officer had been connected with the mercantile world he would have been more punctual in his attendance in that House, and would have known that the matter alluded to by him had already been explained once or twice by the Secretary for War. If a division took place, he should vote with the hon. Member for Liskeard. This was only the commencement of a large expenditure, and if they began with £5,000 they would soon get up to £500,000.
  COLONEL KNOXsaid, he had not alluded to the hon. Gentleman.
  COLONEL DICKSONexpressed his intention to vote with the hon. Member for Liskeard. There were many things on which this money could be spent more important to the army than gymnasiums. He trusted that some stop would be put to the expenditure of money on huts at Aldershot. If barracks were built in other parts the troops could be collected for two or three months at a time together under different commanders, and that would serve all the desired purpose.
  COLONEL NORTHsupported the item which had been objected to. The object of every officer was to give some amusement to the soldiers.
  MAJOR KNOXsaid, he trusted that the Secretary for War would declare that this item was only the commencement of a system.
  Motion made, and Question put,
  "That the item of £5,000, for the erection of Gymnasiums, Recreation Grounds, &c, be omitted from the proposed Vote."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 18; Noes 154: Majority 136.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £277,547, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of the Educational and Scientific Branches, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1861, inclusive."
  MR. CHILDERScalled attention to the item of £29,000 for the prosecution of the Ordnance Survey in England. He understood that in that amount was included a sum to defray the preliminary arrangements for completing the survey of the whole of England and Wales on a 25-inch scale. He thought the country owed a deep debt of gratitude to Colonel James for his conduct of the survey. But, as the expense of a survey on the enlarged scale, was estimated at no less a sum than £1,450,000, he thought the Committee should pause before embarking in so costly an undertaking; and, in order to raise the question, he moved that the Vote should be reduced by the sum of £10,000. He had no objection to the survey in England and Wales being completed on a 6-inch scale.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the item of £29,000 for the prosecution of the Survey in England, be reduced by the sum of £10,000."
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, it would be in

  615
  the recollection of the Committee that about three years ago this subject was very much discussed, and that Lord Panmure, who then held the office of Secretary for War, appointed a Crown Commission to inquire and report. The Commissioners were unanimous in thinking that the expense of taking a survey upon a 25-inch scale exceeded by so very little the cost of a survey upon a 6-inch scale, that in regard to all new surveys it should be considered the least economical and most wasteful course to adopt a 6-inch instead of a 25-inch scale. A 25-inch scale could be reduced with case to any scale whatever, so that it possessed the advantage of a 6-inch scale with scarcely any additional expense. It should be remembered that a 6-inch scale was far beyond the limits of the size of a map, and therefore could never be available in that character. If a map was wanted, let a 1-inch scale be adopted. A 6-inch scale was fitted, not for a map, but for a plan, or what they called on the Continent a cadastre. The evidence was conclusive and the report unanimous, and he believed that with regard to the survey of cultivated tracks on the 25-inch scale being preferable to a survey on the 6-inch scale there would be no difference of opinion among those who read the evidence taken before that Commission.
  COLONEL DUNNEremembered the discussions that had formerly taken place on this Vote, and he thought it had been settled that the 25-inch scale was only to be applied to certain parts of Scotland. It now appeared it was to be applied to England too, and if so, of course to Ireland. He wished to know what would be the expense of this change of plan over the whole kingdom.
  MR. AUGUSTUS SMITHthought that 25 was an unfortunate number, and that 24 inches would have been better, because it would have been the multiple of six inches. He could not understand what the rural districts could want with the 25-inch scale; and when it was considered that a survey on a large scale for the purpose of tithe commutation had been recently made, he thought the expense unjustifiable.
  MR. MONSELLsaid, there would be a 1-inch map for England, a 6-inch for Ireland, and a 25-inch for a considerable part of Scotland. There was no question between the 25-inch and the 6-inch, because the former was much more useful and a
  616
  very little more expensive. But the question was whether it was worth while that the whole of England should be surveyed over again on the 25-inch scale. If the three kingdoms were to be all surveyed on the 25-inch scale, it would cost some millions of money, and he suggested that the Committee should now report progress, and not seriously discuss the matter in this incidental manner, without notice, after midnight.
  MR. JOSEPH LOCKEhad a distinct recollection of the discussion that took place formerly on this subject, and he understood that the conclusion come to was, that the parts of Scotland then under survey should be completed on the 25-inch scale, and no more. Since then, however, the survey on the 25-inch scale had been extended to other parts, he believed, without the authority of this House. It now appeared that it was to be extended to England, and in all probability to Ireland. He admitted that the question was a difficult one, but for that very reason he thought it was a strange thing to attempt to commit the House to the expense by a Vote of this kind. He would support the Motion for reporting progress.
  MR. ELLICEthought the Committee ought not to consent to this Vote without being fully aware that a 25-inch scale for England and Ireland meant not only an entirely new survey, but the maintenance of a permanent establishment for the perpetual correction of that survey. A 25-inch survey was nothing more nor less than a map of a man's estate, marking all the lanes, the trees, the hedges, drains, and a variety of features which were continually changing, so that what was a correct survey this year was anything but correct next year. The Committee ought, therefore, to take into consideration that not only was it asked to sanction a first expenditure of a good million, but to saddle the country to all time with the maintenance of an expensive permanent department.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTwould postpone the Vote, but hoped the Committee would proceed with some of the unopposed Votes.
  Motion, and Original Question, by leave, withdrawn.
  House resumed.
  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
  Committee to sit again on Wednesday next.

  ROMAN CATHOLIC CHARITIES BILL.
  Order for Consideration read.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that he had several times called the attention of the House to the fact of this Bill standing on the Orders of the Day almost at the bottom of the list, day by day, and he was afraid the boast of the hon. and learned Member for Dundalk (Mr. Bowyer) would be realized—namely, that he would pass this Bill through the House without discussion. That observation was made in reply to an observation of his own. He had asked the Attorney General to explain the nature of the Amendments to the House on the previous stage; but in the absence of the Attorney General, of his right hon. Friend the Member for Oxfordshire, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge, this Bill, on the Motion, of the lion. Member for Dundalk, was passed through the stage of Committee, which he looked upon as an attempt to force the Bill through the House, and he trusted that the House would not consent to pass the Bill without giving the fullest opportunity of considering the Amendments. The subject had been for seven years before the House, and it was too bad that it should be now passed at the fag-end of the Session without discussion, which would, in point of fact, be entirely abrogating the functions of the House. He therefore moved the adjournment of the debate.
  MR. BOWYERsaid, that his only object was to ensure some legislation before the existing Act expired, which would be on the 4th of July. He should have preferred permanent legislation; but if that could not be obtained they must pass the Suspension Bill.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that he quite agreed with the hon. Member for Warwickshire that this important measure should not be hurried through without discussion, and he was surprised to find it had passed through Committee the other night, having fully intended to have made some explanation of the Amendments.
  Debate adjourned till To-morrow.
  House adjourned at half-after One o'clock.

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—Several Lords.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Infants Marriage Act Amendment.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

  RESOLUTION.
  On the Motion of Lord REDESDALE, it was Resolved,
  "That this House will not read any Bill a Second Time after Tuesday, the 17th of July, except Bills of Aid or Supply, or any Bill in relation to which the House shall have resolved, before the Second Reading is moved, that the Circumstances which render Legislation on the Subject of the same expedient are either of such recent Occurrence or real Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the same necessary,

CATHEDRAL AND COLLEGIATE CHURCHES COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  LORD LYTTELTON, in rising to put the question of which he had given notice, Whether Her Majesty's Government intend to bring in any measures founded on the Report of the Commission for inquiring into the Condition of Cathedral and Collegiate Churches (1852), or the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Lords for inquiring into the Deficiency of Means of Spiritual Instruction and Places of Divine Worship in the Metropolis and populous Places (1858), said that these were strong instances of a practice too common in these days, by which important subjects

  551
  were examined and reported, or with the utmost diligence by Royal Commissions or Parliamentary Committees, but nothing further was done in the matter. The two bodies to whom the Question referred had applied themselves with great diligence to the investigation of the subjects. The recommendations of the Cathedral Commissioners alone occupied six folio pages, and in every case their recommendations were proper matters for the consideration of the Legislature. If these recommendations were shelved it would be an extraordinary instance of waste of labour upon a difficult and important subject. The subject of spiritual destitution was one of a different kind; and on this point there could be no doubt that the Report of the Committee of their Lordships' House which sat about two years ago had had considerable effect in diffusing information through out the country. The Committee also had made various recommendations, one only of which hade been taken up, namely, that relation to the union of benefices, a subject on which a Bill had been introduced by the right rev. Prelate near him (the Bishop of London); they had suggested that an alteration should take place in the law relating to pews and the sale of livings under the patronage of the Crown; also that power should be given to tenants for life to leave property for churches and parsonages in the same way as was now done for purposes of education. These and other minor recommendations were made by the Committee, and there were also in the evidence of Archdeacon Sinclair recommendations of various kinds on the same subject. He did not ask for legislation on these matters this Session or in any particular Session, but he wished to know whether the Government could hold out any hope that in a future Session they would be prepared to carry out any of the recommendations to which he had made reference.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, he need hardly remind his noble Friend that it would be hopeless to hold out the expectation that legislation with the purpose of carrying out the resolutions and recommendations of the voluminous Report of this Commission could be initiated at so late a period of the Session as the 18th June. Indeed, his noble Friend had acknowledged that he did not put the question in the hope that any legislation could take place in the present Session, but rather with a view to ascertain whether the Government, in a succeeding Session,
  552
  would be ready to take up the question. He, however, thought that in matters of this kind, except under very peculiar circumstances, it was not desirable that a Government should pledge themselves as to the course of legislation they intended to propose in an ensuing Session. Such a course he held to be neither politic, wise, nor just. The Report of this Commission was very voluminous and complicated, many of its recommendations were at variance with the course of legislation for many years past, and great caution was required in dealing with such a large subject. Two points recommended in the Report of the Commission had already become the subject of legislation—first of all, that which referred to the union of benefices, and, in the next place, that provision which enacted that where surplus funds were paid into the hands of Ecclesiastical Commissioners the locality from which they were drawn should have the first claim upon them, if its spiritual necessities were not already provided for. With regard to the first of these, his noble Friend was aware that a Bill had been brought in on the subject by the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of London), which had passed their Lordships' House and was now in the Commons; and, as regarded the second point, a Bill had been brought into the other House by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in which there was a clause to enable the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to meet local deficiencies. This clause would, he hoped, meet the views of his noble Friend on that subject. At any rate, he was unable to hold out to his noble Friend any hope of further legislation on this subject during the present Session.

CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order.)
  Clause 6 (Commissioners appointed by Her Majesty and the Archbishops to be removable.)
  EARL POWISsaid, that this clause contained an extraordinary provision relative to the removal of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners by the two Archbishops of Ireland. By Clause 1, it was enacted that there should be two Ecclesiastical Commissioners receiving a salary,—one to be appointed by the Crown, in order that the Government might be properly represented, and the other by the Primate and

  553
  Archbishop of Dublin, jointly, to protect the interests of the Church; but the 6th clause provided that the latter Commissioner should be removable, not by the authorities who appointed him, but by the Crown. In the analogous case of the English Church a directly contrary course was adopted, they were appointed during good behaviour, and he thought that the English precedent was the one to be observed in this case. He would, therefore, move as an Amendment that the Commissioners appointed b y Her Majesty should be removable by the Crown, and that those appointed by the Lord Primate and the Archbishop of Dublin should be removable by those Prelates.
  THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSsaid, that this was no new provision created for the first time by this Bill. The 3 and 4 William IV. already gave to the Crown the power sought for in the Bill, which merely sought to continue that power. Moreover, the Act in question had been originally framed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners themselves, and had been passed with their concurrence.
  THE BISHOP OF DERRYsaid, he thought the matter of little importance, but preferred that the clause should stand as it did.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that if any alteration or Amendment were made, it should consist in the reduction of the two Commissioners to one, and he believed that was the general impression in Ireland. One Commissioner, he believed, had recently transacted the business.
  THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSsaid, he understood the work was more than one Commissioner could transact, although it was true that during the illness of Sir Henry Meredith, Mr. Quin had transacted the business of the Department.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 8 (Officers to be appointed).
  The EARL OF DONOUGHMOREproposed an Amendment to
  "Omit ('as the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Ireland now pay to such Officers respectively, or such other Salaries as the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Ireland shall from time to time hereafter, with the approbation and consent of the Lord Lieutenant, testified in writing under his hand, think fit to allow") and insert in lieu thereof ('the several Salaries set forth in the Schedule to this Act annexed, such Salaries to be payable from and after the passing of this Act, due credit being given to each of such Officers for his past service')."
  THE EARL OF ST. GERMANSobjected that it was very unusual to fix such salaries in a Bill. The more desirable course would be to leave the matter in the hands of the Commissioners, as was usually done in regard to similar departments.
  THE BISHOP OF DERRYstated that it was the intention of the Commissioners to re-arrange the salaries of their officers.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Thursday next.

THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS' VALUATION.

  QUESTION.
  LORD PORTMANinquired of Her Majesty's Government, What progress had been made by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in the Valuation ordered by the Act 3 & 4 Vict., c. 183, s. 77? The matter was one of very considerable importance, and it was very desirable that the valuation in question should proceed. From circumstances, however, which had come within his observation, it appeared as if the Commissioners had been guilty of some neglect of duty or disobedience of the law. Unless some answer could be given, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners ought either to ask Parliament to repeal the clause, or else Parliament ought to put such a pressure upon them as to oblige them to carry out the law. His Question appeared to assume that some progress had been made. He had, however, reason to believe that, had he moved for a Return, the answer would have been "nil," and he asked the question to elicit some information.
  THE EARL OF CHICHESTERsaid, that his noble Friend had answered his own question. The object for which this valuation was to be made, or rather completed, was to enable the Commissioners to ascertain the value of the poor livings. One reason why they had not proceeded to cause a fresh valuation to be made was that they had obtained no additional powers since the last valuation, and there was no reason to believe that any new valuation would be more accurate than the last. The value of the property they were called upon to deal with was constantly changing, and the Commissioners believed that they were justified in postponing the valuation, in consequence of the great loss of time and labour, to say nothing of expense, which would be involved without commensurate results.

INDIA.—EUROPEAN TROOPS.

  RETURNS MOVED FOR.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, in moving for certain Returns referring to the amount of European regiments in India, said he did not intend to enter upon a discussion of the difficult question of the expediency or wisdom of abolishing the local army; for abolition it would be, whether called by the name of amalgamation or absorption, if the Queen's regular army was to do all the work of European troops in India. Upon that point he had formed no decided opinion; but as it was mixed up with the question of the whole administration of India, he thought it important that full information should be given to the House. The Returns for which he moved would not give much information by themselves, but they would add to the information conveyed by the Papers which had been presented to the other House, and the presentation of which to their Lordships had been most unaccountably delayed. The noble Marquess concluded by moving an Address for—
  "Return of the Number of local European Regiments in each of the Presidencies of British India, and the Total Amount of that Force on the 1st January 1830, 1835, 1840, 1845, 1850, 1856, 1857, 1858, 1859, and 1860; specifying whether Infantry, Cavalry, or Artillery: Also,
  "Return of the Number of Regiments and the Total Amount of Force of the Queen's Army in the same Presidencies at the same Periods: And also,
  "Return of the Number of Recruits sent from England in each of the last Four Years to different Regiments of either Army; and of the Number of Officers and Soldiers sent Home invalided or discharged from either Service in those Years:
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, it was extremely important that the information now asked for should be supplied; but he should, on this occasion, imitate the example of the noble Marquess, and not go into the general question respecting the manner in which it was proposed to deal with the local army in India. At the same time he would suggest for the consideration of the Government a matter upon which silence had hitherto been observed, and which, though of great importance, must, he presumed, have escaped attention. One of the reasons assigned for the amalgamation of Her Majesty's army and the local army was, that it was most desirable that all the regiments serving in India should from time to time come to this country. Now, it was impossible for Parliament,
  556
  within any period to which they might reasonably look forward, to give effect to that object. He apprehended that Parliament would he bound by its own solemn pledge, recently given within the last two years, and that it would not impose what hitherto it never had imposed—compulsory service upon any body of soldiers whatever. The position in which the affair stood was this:—The Company's army was transferred to the Crown, subject to the same conditions as those on which it was held by the Company—that is to say, it was liable to serve within the same territorial limits only, as if it had continued in the service of the Company. It was impossible, therefore, for Parliament to give to the Crown any power to send from India to England any portion of that force, unless the men should choose, on being discharged from the service, to re-enlist as if they had entered into one of the Queen's regiments. Now, it would be rather dangerous to let the bird loose from the cage, in the hope of its flying back into the window. That experiment had lately been tried, and had failed. Last year they had lost 16,000 men, and this year it was possible they might lose 15,000 more. It was not until the expiration of the men's service, which continued for ten years, and of the officer's service, which continued for life, that it would be possible for the Government, under any circumstances, to direct the transfer of any local force now in India to this country.
  EARL GRANVILLE, in assenting to the returns, deprecated discussion at the present stage of this question, and until the whole matter was before their Lordships.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, under the circumstances he had stated, this amalgamation, however important it might be, would be practically deferred, in the case of the men, until the expiration of ten years; and in the case of officers, during the whole of their lives.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEsaid, there was one question which he wished to ask the noble Earl—namely, whether if an officer was once appointed to the Staff, he remained there for life, and was never remanded to his regiment?
  EARL GRANVILLEthought, it would be desirable to postpone this question, as the whole subject of the Staff was under the consideration of the Government. He, therefore, deprecated any discussion upon it at present.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEasked when the

  557
  papers moved for would be laid upon the table?
  EARL GRANVILLE: Probably to-morrow.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHasked the Government, in laying the papers on this subject upon the table, to publish, in extenso, the letter of Lord Canning, of which, as yet, only an extract had been produced. He hoped the whole despatch might be printed entire, without injury to the public service.
  Motion agreed to.

  ITALY.—NAPLES.—RUMOURED INTERFERENCE OF FRANCE.—QUESTION.
  LORD BROUGHAM(who had attempted to put this Question before the Orders of the Day) said:—My Lords, the experience of this evening teaches us that in order to put a Question to the Government on any subject, however urgent or important, it is necessary on every occasion to give notice of the question, and have it printed amongst the Orders of the Day. Such a course will be very inconvenient, and will often give rise to long and unnecessary discussions; for I have observed that when questions are asked without notice, they are at once answered, and there is an end of them; but that when notice is given they almost invariably lead to debates, which may sometimes be of long duration. The Question I am about to put to my noble Friend, the Lord President, arises from an impression that has prevailed for the last two days, both in Paris and London, and which has created very considerable alarm in both cities. I hope and trust that I shall receive as distinct a denial of it as my noble Friend and his colleagues are capable of giving;—but, in my opinion, their denial of having received any information or notice upon this subject from the other side of the water will be in itself a substantial contradiction of the report. It has been said, both in Paris and London, during the last two days, that the French Government are either sending, or are preparing to send, a very considerable force to the south of Italy—to the kingdom of Naples. [The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH: A military force?] A military force. A naval force they have already there, consisting of seven ships; but the despatch of a military force, as I am reminded by the noble Earl, stands in a totally different position, and naturally creates very considerable anxiety and alarm. I confess, for my own part, that I do not partake of
  558
  that alarm; because, even if it were true that there is a force despatched, or about to be despatched, to the kingdom of Naples, I am perfectly convinced that it is an impossibility such force should be despatched for the purpose of interposing between the King of Naples—I can now, happily, only call him the King of Naples; and not the King of the Two Sicilies—it is utterly and absolutely impossible that any force should be sent for the purpose of protecting him against his former subjects in Sicily; or of protecting him, I will venture to hope, against his subjects on the main, land. I do not believe, therefore, that if this measure is in contemplation, or if it is begun to be executed—that it could be for any one purpose connected with the King of Naples, with respect to his subjects on the mainland, or the restitution of his dominion in the island of Sicily. What might be the object of the movement, if unhappily it were about to take place, I will not venture even to conjecture, but I am only satisfied and comforted in a firm and entire belief that it cannot be for the protection of the King of Naples. My Lords, I say therefore, first, that I cannot believe there is any foundation for the rumour. If it had any foundation, some notice must have been given of it to Her Majesty's Government, and, upon finding that they have no intimation whatever from Paris on the subject, I shall believe it to he entirely erroneous. I confess I shall be glad to find I am right, and that the report is groundless; and I rejoice to think that I shall hear from my noble Friend opposite that it is so; but if not, the alarm I feel is not for the liberties of Sicily or of Naples, but it is lest there may be some intention entertained by the French Government of interfering, either with the Duchies, or with Sardinia, or with the Pope, or with Venice, and lest, therefore, there should be danger to the peace of Europe.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I regret that the noble and learned Lord should have been put to the inconvenience of waiting until now in order to submit his Question to the Government. There is some difference between giving any notice of a question and inscribing the formal notice to be printed with the Votes previously to the day on which the question is to be asked. Now, the noble and learned Lord has never given me the slightest intimation of his intention to put this question. It is, I think, convenient, not only to Members of the Cabinet, but to the public, that no-

  559
  tice should be given of any question of importance, inasmuch as it often happens that the Member of the Government of whom the question is to be asked finds it necessary to communicate with the head of the Department to which the subject specially refers, in order to be enabled to make a complete and satisfactory reply. If I had stated what I knew when the noble and learned Lord first put the question to me, I could only have stated my individual belief that Her Majesty's Government had received no such information as that to which the noble and learned Lord has alluded, and that it would be inconsistent with all the declarations we have received on the subject from the Emperor of the French. I have had an opportunity, however, through the delay which the forms of the House have occasioned, of communicating with my noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs on the matter, and I am enabled to state upon his authority that there is no foundation for the rumour of any French military force having been sent to the south of Italy, or that there is any intention of so doing. It is true the French have ships of war there, as we have, for the protection of British subjects and their property; but I repeat that I do not believe there is any intention of sending any troops there.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, it was satisfactory to find that this rumour was as great a fiction as the report that the British marines had taken possession of Castellamare.
  LORD BROUGHAM: If no information has been received from Paris, or elsewhere, of such intention, it is clear to my mind that the rumour is groundless. Let us hope, therefore, that there will be not only no breach of the peace, or disturbance of the tranquillity now prevailing in Italy, excepting in the South and in Sicily, but that Sicily and the South of Italy are, the one already free, and the other nearly free, from the tyranny under which they have laboured.
  House adjourned at Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, Half-past Ten o'clock.