Sitting of 17 June 1859

KING OF DELHI.—CIVIL ESTABLISHMENTS.—JUDICIAL OATHS.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.—QUESTION.
  MR. KINNAIRD MR. KINNAIRD moved for an Address for Copy of a Letter of the Chief Commissioner of the Punjab, forwarding to the Governor General of India the proceedings on the Trial of the King of Delhi. The hon. Member also asked the Secretary of State for India whether he had not received a report on Civil Establishments and Salaries throughout India by Mr. Henry Ricketts, and what steps it was proposed to take in accordance with the recommendations thereof? Also, whether anything was being done in the way of legislation in regard to Judicial Oaths in India, and whether the subject had been under the notice of the Council?
  LORD STANLEYreplied, that the reports on Civil Establishments and Salaries had been received, but without any expressions of the views of the Indian Government. The subject had been taken into consideration by the Council of India here, and a communication had been addressed to the Government at Calcutta for their opinion as to the propriety of adopting the recommendations which the Report contained; but as yet no reply had been returned. He could scarcely in a few words give a reply to the second question. He might, however, state that a Bill had been submitted to the Legislative Council at Calcutta on the subject of Judicial Oaths, he was not aware with what result; but a despatch had been sent out on the 3rd May, fully expressing the views of the Government here.

RESIGNATION OF MINISTERS.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think, Sir, it is but respectful to the House that I should formally announce to them that of which, no doubt, every Gentleman present is already cognisant;—that in consequence of the vote which a week ago the House was pleased to arrive at, Lord Derby and his colleagues felt it their duty immediately to tender the resignation of their offices to Her Majesty, and that Her Majesty has been graciously pleased to accept the same. So that at the present moment they hold, and for some days past they have held, those offices only until their successors are appointed. The noble Lord the Member for Tiverton has received the commands of Her Majesty to form an Administration, and I believe he has accomplished the task. Under these circumstances, I feel that it will be for the convenience of the House—and also of the noble Lord—that I should move that the House at its rising adjourn until Tuesday next. I fix Tuesday because that is the last day on which election petitions can be received. Should any further adjournment be necessary those who succeed us will then have the opportunity of moving it.

HER MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
THE COMPTROLLER OF THE HOUSEHOLD(Colonel Forester) reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
I receive with much satisfaction the assurance of the House of Commons, that, whilst I maintain a strict neutrality between the contending parties in the War now kindled in the North of Italy, I may rely on their cordial concurrence in the measures of defensive policy which have appeared to Me to be necessary for the security of my Dominions and the honour of my Crown.
I am at all times desirous that my Government should be in accordance with the Representatives of My People in the House of Commons; and I have therefore taken measures to act upon the advice which you tender to Me, by the formation of a new Administration.

NEWSPAPERS, &c., BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time" (Mr. Ayrton).
MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURTappealed to the hon. and learned Gentleman to postpone the Bill until the new Government were present to express their opinion upon it.
MR. AYRTONsaid, he saw no reason for postponing the measure.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYurged the inconvenience of proceeding with the Bill under the circumstances in which the House was placed with regard to the Government, and added that there was an objection in point of form. The Bill interfering with revenue ought to have emanated from a Committee of the whole House.
MR. AYRTONsaid, he had consulted the legal advisers of the Treasury, and was assured there was no objection either in point of form or substance.
MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURTsaid, he thought the best way would be to adjourn the debate for a fortnight.
Debate adjourned till Friday, 1st July.

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH

  The Queen's Speech considered; Motion "That a Supply be granted to Her Majesty."
  Committee thereupon on Tuesday next.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE MIDDLESEX (ASSISTANT JUDGE) BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT moved the second reading of this Bill, which he said was simply to carry out an object in which he believed both sides of the House agreed, namely, the increase of the salary of the Assistant Judge from £1,200 to 1,500 a year.
MR. W. WILLIAMSobjected. Three times a Bill had been brought in to increase the salary of the late Mr. Serjeant Adams who held the office a long time, and was a most efficient Judge, and it was rejected; a very distinguished person succeeded that learned Judge, and he had never applied for an increase; and although he admitted the high talents of the learned Judge recently appointed (Mr. Bodkin) he did not think that any sufficient reason

433
for the proposed increase could be shown which could not exist with reference to his two predecessors. It was suggested that the new Judge would give up his private practice; but there was no necessity for that, for he had plenty of leisure time and had two Assistants.
MR. LOCKE KINGthought the Bill ought not to be proceeded with in the abeyance of the Government.
MR. HARDYobserved that the Assistant Judge was often called upon to decide upon important questions connected with the poor law; and what could be more unseemly and inconvenient than that he should previously have given as a Barrister his opinion upon the points he had to determine as a Judge? It should be recollected that the practice which the Assistant Judge would have to surrender under the new arrangement was probably worth more than £1000 a year.
MR. BYNGbegged to confirm this statement.
MR. BOUVERIEwas in favour of the Bill, but thought that it ought not to be proceeded with in the absence of the new Government.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 1st July.
House adjourned at Five o'clock till Tuesday next.

MINUTES.
Took the Oath.—Several Lords.
PUBLIC BILLS.—3a. Debtor and Creditor; The Companies (1859).

MINISTERIAL EXPLANATIONS.
THE EARL OF DERBY: Perhaps, my Lords, before proceeding to the little business which stands for your Lordships' consideration to-day, I may be indulged, under the circumstances in which I am placed, with permission to address a few words—and they shall be very few—to your Lordships. It is hardly necessary for me to say that, after the division which took place on Friday night last in the House of Commons, no alternative was left to Her Majesty's Government except humbly to tender the resignation of the offices which they held, and which it was impossible they should longer continue to hold with advantage to the country after a vote of want of confidence had been carried against them by a majority in the House of Commons. The majority undoubtedly was not a very large one, but as it was a majority
424
in a House—I believe the largest on record—from which very few Members were absent, we felt bound to take it as the deliberate expression of the opinion of the whole House of Commons. At the same time, as that vote of want of confidence was not founded upon a condemnation of any specific portion of our policy, either foreign or domestic, but was treated purely as a party question—looking to the general division supposed to exist between public men, who are called Liberal on one side, and Conservative on the other, and that the simple declaration in one paragraph of the Address was that the Government ought not to be intrusted to Her Majesty's present advisers—I am relieved from the necessity of entering upon a vindication of any part of the policy or conduct of Her Majesty's Government. I am satisfied, my Lords, to leave that policy and that conduct to be judged by the impartial decision of the country, and, so far as it goes down to posterity, by posterity. I think it due, however, to my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to express the conviction—which I believe is shared by every man who has at all impartially considered the papers recently laid on your Lordships' table and on the table of the other House of Parliament—I think it due to him to express my conviction, that a perusal of those papers in a dispassionate spirit will satisfy your Lordships and any one who reads them, not only that the expression in Her Majesty's Speech, "earnest and unceasing have been Her Majesty's endeavours to preserve the peace of Europe," is fully borne out; but also that in the negotiations with foreign Powers my noble Friend has displayed every wish to do that which we professed to do—namely, to "maintain a strict and impartial neutrality between the contending parties." And if there have been—as there have been—some who have lavishly and inconsiderately thrown out aspersions and imputations that my noble Friend unduly lent towards one of those contending par-ties, those aspersions and imputations are completely refuted and disproved by the papers which have been laid before us. My Lords, I will not enter into any vindication of our conduct, I will simply state that, after the vote of the House of Commons, feeling it impossible that we could conduct the business of the country with credit to ourselves or advantage to the Sovereign as long as that vote was recorded against us, and knowing that we had re-

425
cently appealed to the country for its decision, we had but one course to take and that was humbly to tender to Her Majesty the resignation of our offices. Her Majesty was pleased to accept that resignation. Consequently we hold office at the present moment only until our successors shall be appointed. I rejoice to think that that period is not likely to be long; because in the present state of Europe I can think nothing more unfortunate than that the powers of the Executive should be in abeyance. I therefore rejoice that, whoever may compose the Ministry which shall succeed us, we shall not remain in office beyond a very few days—I believe a very few hours—longer. I hardly know whether I ought on the present occasion to speak from the place which I now occupy (the Treasury bench), inasmuch as I have just returned from making my grateful acknowledgments to Her Majesty of the kindness and confidence with which I have been honoured, and taking my leave of Her Majesty in the character of Her First Minister. I can only say for myself and colleagues, and for those in both Houses with whom I have the happiness and honour of acting, that I am perfectly satisfied that those who are to succeed us will meet with no factious opposition, or be obstructed by any embarrassing combination or conduct in their attempt to carry on the Government of the country. And I will say more, that it will give me most earnest and sincere satisfaction if I find that, although no longer holding office, I can give to the Queen's Government that which I desire to give—an independent and generous support. I do earnestly trust that in the matter of foreign policy Her Majesty's Government will not depart from the line of a strict and impartial neutrality which it has been so much the object of the present Government to maintain. I am satisfied that that is the only course which will accord with the wishes and interest, and I may say the determination of the country. At the same time I adhere to the principle by which we were guided, and I trust that Her Majesty's Government will not relax in those efforts which we felt it our duty to make in the present unsettled state of Europe to place the country—more especially the naval power of the country—in a condition to protect us against every insult, and to add weight and importance to our interference or mediation with foreign Powers.
Before I sit down, perhaps my noble
426
Friend opposite (Earl Granville)—who I presume is about to become again the leader of this House, in which on a former occasion he has gained so much esteem and good will from both sides of it—will forgive me if I take the opportunity of referring to a circumstance which I think ought not altogether to be passed over in silence. My Lords, if there are any communications which ought to be invested with a character of most strict and inviolate secrecy, they are the communications—the personal communications—between the Sovereign of these realms and her advisers; and, if it be possible to draw a distinction between different communications of that character, none I think ought to he invested with that character in a more peculiar degree than communications between the Sovereign and the person whom She may have sent for to consult with on the formation of a new Administration. Entertaining these opinions—which I am sure are shared by all your Lordships—I confess that it was with great surprise and regret that on Monday morning last I saw in The Times newspaper what purported to be a detailed account of the whole conversation which took place between Her Majesty and the noble Earl opposite on the occasion when Her Majesty was pleased to consult him on the formation of a new Administration. Undoubtedly newspapers can, on these occasions, draw their own conclusions and give accounts of who have gone into the palace, and whether this or that statesman has been communicated with. But I must say this is the first time I have seen a statement, given apparently on authority, of observations made by Her Majesty, of replies by the persons consulted, and statements by Her Majesty of the motives by which she was actuated in an attempt to form a new Government. I give to my noble Friend opposite the entire credit of being absolutely free from the slightest charge of having sanctioned this publication. I am quite sure that the honourable character of my noble Friend, and his sense of the duties which we owe to the Sovereign, would have prevented his giving in the slightest degree his sanction to such a violation of official decorum and constitutional practice. But this is not a case of a document being surreptitiously obtained and transferred to a newspaper, nor is this paragraph a fabrication resting on the imagination of the writer, and falsely assuming statements of what actually did take place. Only one or two persons could have been

427
present at that conversation,—Her Majesty, probably the Prince Consort, and my noble Friend. It is therefore perfectly obvious that my noble Friend's confidence has been grossly abused by some person or another. No doubt there was some one with whom it was his duty to communicate on receiving that communication from Her Majesty, but clearly that person was not the editor of a newspaper. I am ready to receive an assurance from my noble Friend that he gave no sanction to the publication of so important and confidential a communication as one between his Sovereign and himself, and that his confidence has been improperly abused by some one divulging information which ought to be kept strictly secret. I do not intend to take any further step in this matter. I prefer calling my noble Friend's attention to it while I still sit on this side of the House, lest it should be thought I took an early opportunity of making a factious attack on the new Administration. I think my noble Friend must have been as painfully struck with the fact as myself, and will consider he owes thanks to me for having noticed it and asked him to give an explanation. It is with that view, and with that view only, I have thought it right thus to notice it to your Lordships.
I understand that it is my noble Friend's wish, and the wish of those likely to be connected with him in the Government, that the adjournment of your Lordships' House shall be moved until Tuesday next; and probably on Tuesday it will be necessary to move a further adjournment. Of course, in all matters I wish entirely to consult the convenience of those who are about to succeed us. Consequently, after the business is disposed of, if it meet my noble Friend's view, I will move the adjournment until Tuesday. I do not think it is necessary for me to trouble your Lordships any further. I do not wish to raise any discussion. I repeat, it is my anxious hope that the Government will soon be able to take our places, and from me they shall have no obstruction, but, on the contrary, every facility for carrying on the Government consistent with the principles which I entertain.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I feel that it is more proper that I should postpone until another opportunity any remarks on public affairs, although I believe I shall do nothing improper if I at once tender our thanks to the noble Earl and those who formed the late Government for the
428
assurance that the new Government—who assume office, it may well be believed, under circumstances of no little difficulty—will receive no unnecessary opposition from them. One part of the noble Earl's speech referred to a circumstance of a personal nature, as to which I trust your Lordships will allow me to give an answer. On the occasion of my last interview with Her Majesty—on Sunday last—I asked Her Majesty's permission to state to my friends that which had taken place at the previous interview to which I had the honour of being admitted; and, having obtained that permission, I in the course of the same evening made a statement generally to several of my friends—some political, some private—as to what had passed upon that occasion. In that statement I certainly never meant in respect to any one circumstance to give Her Majesty's language. I did, however, in making that statement, lay very great stress on the grounds upon which Her Majesty sent for me, because I thought they would be calculated to show the constitutional motives by which Her Majesty was actuated in taking that step. I read, I confess, with great regret the article which appeared in The Times of Monday, and to which the noble Earl has referred. It is quite clear that that article was founded on one or more of the statements which I had made myself on the previous evening. So far as that portion of it which relates to the conversation which I had the honour of holding with Her Majesty is concerned, I may say—putting aside for the moment any appearance of disrespect which the publication in such a manner of that conversation may seem to imply—that what actually took place only serves to show how faithfully the Sovereign of this country adheres to those constitutional maxims, the observance of which has been one of the greatest characteristics of Her Majesty's reign. On the other band, I am perfectly ready to admit to the noble Earl and to the House that I very deeply regret that I did not use that complete reserve which would have entirely precluded the possibility of publicity being given to a conversation the purport of which could have been properly stated by me only in my place in Parliament, and at the proper time. There is also another portion of the article in question to which I venture briefly to refer,—I mean that portion of it which relates to a communication which I had with a statesman of great eminence with regard

429
to the formation of a Government. I perceived with regret that the article to which I allude led naturally to the inference that I had reason to complain of Lord John Russell that he had not behaved towards me with that fairness which I had experienced in other quarters. I will not enter into a lengthened explanation on the subject now; but I feel assured that when I have an opportunity of making my statement in reference to the proceedings in which I so recently took part in full you will perceive that, although the distribution of offices, and the carrying out of his political views prevented Lord John Russell joining me, he was actuated by no personal feeling in the matter, and was solely influenced by public considerations. I may add that so far as I myself am concerned I met from Lord John Russell with the same remarkable kindness and consideration which I received at the hands of other public men. I have now simply to thank jour Lordships for the kindness with which you have listened to the explanation which I had to make in reply to the charges in-involved in the remarks of the noble Earl opposite, and, while I have no hesitation in saying that I am not guilty of that breach of confidence from which indeed the noble Earl has been kind enough to exculpate me, yet I at the same time feel that the observance of a greater degree of discretion on my part would have prevented the occurrence of that to which he has adverted.
LORD BROUGHAM: My Lords, reference having been made to a supposed audience of the Queen, I may observe that as a Peer of Parliament I had a right and it might be a duty to request an audience of Her Majesty. I am not at liberty to state what advice I tendered to Her Majesty, if I tendered her any. I am, however, perfectly entitled to urge again upon your Lordships' attention the very strong opinion to which I gave expression on the first night of the Session, upon the absolute necessity, in the present state of affairs, both at home and abroad, of any Government which may at this time be constituted being formed on the widest possible basis. One word as to the state of affairs on the Continent. Now, whatever advice I gave in this House on the. formation of the Government I have no manner of doubt that it would be too late to repeat it now; but on the subject of our foreign relations it is not too late to express my ardent hope and my confident
430
trust—to speak in the words of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby)—that the most absolute neutrality will be observed by the Minister, whoever he may be, who has been entrusted with the government of this country; that there may be no leaning—not only towards Austria, but no leaning whatever, towards either France or the allies of France—Sardinia, and, I grieve to say, Russia.
House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Tuesday next, hall-past Four o'clock.