Sitting of 23 February 1859

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1o Church Rates.
CHURCH RATES COMMUTATION BILL.

  SECOND READING DEFERRED.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, he would beg of the hon. Gentleman to postpone the second reading of this measure until the Government Bill on the same subject came on, so that the discussion upon all three Bills might be taken together.
  MR. ALCOCKsaid, he was sorry that he must decline to accede to the suggestion. His Bill was identical with one which he introduced last Session and which was read a first time, but he had never said a word with respect to it. He (Mr. Alcock) was one of those who for years had voted for the abolition of church rates, and he was still prepared to do so if there was any chance of such a measure passing; but as he thought that hopeless, he was of opinion that such a Bill as he now proposed, being purely voluntary and permissive, was desirable. The Bill held out no premium to Dissenters to increase their opposition to church rates, or any inducement to tenant farmers to agree to their abolition. Nor was it open to many objections which he thought applicable to the plan of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary. The chief objection he felt to the Government Bill was the nature of the machinery employed—the incumbent and the churchwardens—whom the Govern-

  739
  ment wished to erect into a corporation with perpetual succession. Again, he could not suppose how the Government could entertain the idea that they would be able to set at rest at once and for ever a question they had been unable for so long a period to settle from year to year. It was wholly impracticable. How could they settle what the rates had been for the last ten or twenty years, seeing that in many instances half of the rates were voluntary, while the other half had been compulsory? It would be also necessary to see how the fabrics of the church had been maintained. How could they now strike an average for fifteen or twenty years, when in some parishes the fabric was neglected, and others spent thousands upon it? In addition to this the Government Bill did not satisfy him as to the period when there would be a discharge of the parish from church rates, as it depended on the Government to advise the Queen in Council at what period that discharge should be given. In his Bill he preferred to make use of the machinery of the Charity Commissioners who already had under their administration property to the value of £1,200,000. They administered more than 20,000 charities, varying in value from 10 s. to £35,000. Those Commissioners would have the judgment and the discrimination to use such powers as he proposed to confer on them. The body which would have to deal with such a subject ought to be in possession of a very large margin, in order to deal justly with the fabric of the Church and with the ratepayers, His Bill was entirely permissive; he asked for no change in the law, but only (he repeated) the establishment of permissive provisions. No Churchman, therefore, ought to object to it. He proposed that persons should be allowed to charge their estates, or to give money, for the repair of churches; and, although it might be said that they could do so now, it must be remembered such liberality was checked by the possibility of a legal church rare being also imposed. He did not propose to touch the Mortmain Act, but he thought it might be relaxed a little, as had been done with respect to the gift of tithes. He adopted a provision in the Charity Act, which would allow of a charge on land, made for the repair of a church, being extinguished by the investment of money in the Funds, to meet the case of land so charged afterwards passing into the possession of a Dissenter, who might have con-
  740
  scientious objections to its continuance. He thought it a very reasonable thing to allow lords of manors to give waste land, but had omitted from his Bill a clause drawn with that object.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. COLLINSsaid, he should move as an Amendment, that the Bill be read a second time on Monday next.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon Monday next."
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he also would recommend postponement, which would tend much to the convenience of the House, for then the discussion upon the three Bills might come on together. He had no doubt that the hon. Member for Tavistock (Sir J. Trelawny), in the course he had taken, fully intended to give the Government measure a fair consideration.
  MR. FITZROYsaid, he rose to order; the hon. Member was discussing a Bill not before the House.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHonly meant to say that he should persist in the Amendment of which he had given notice if the hon. Baronet's Bill was pressed.
  MR. SOUTHERON-ESTCOURTsaid, he also must urge postponement until the other two Bills on the same subject were brought forward. It would be most inconvenient, under such circumstances as these, to allow the Bill to go through any stage by which the House might be compromised as to its principle.
  MR. ALCOCKsaid, he would consent to a postponement of the second reading of his measure.
  Question, "That the word 'now,' stand part of the Question," put, and negatived. Words added.
  Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.

ELECTIONS, &c. BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. COLLINSsaid, he rose to move the second reading of this Bill, the object of which was to assimilate the time of giving notice of elections all over the kingdom, and also for assimilating the time allowed for polling in Ireland, namely, two

  741
  days, to the system pursued in England, which confined it to one day. As, however, there was some difficulty about the latter proposition, he should not press that clause which referred to it. The next provision was to alter the period of elections during the recess of Parliament, which was now fourteen days, to six. Another clause proposed to reduce the time in which a bankrupt Member of the House whose bankruptcy was not annulled was allowed to hold his seat from twelve months to four.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. WHITESIDEasked, if the Bill applied to Ireland.
  MR. COLLINSsaid, that the first clause with regard to notices assimilated the practices of elections in Ireland and England. The second clause altering the time of polling in Ireland he should not press.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsuggested the postponement of the debate.
  MR. COLLINSassented.
  Debate adjourned till Wednesday next.

JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.

  SECOND READING DEFERRED.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he would ask that the second reading of this Bill might stand over, in order that the subject might be considered with the view to the formation of a complete measure.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, he had no objection to take that course, and he would fix that day fortnight for the second reading.
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday 9th March.

MANOR COURTS, &c. (IRELAND), BILL.

  COMMITTEE DEFERRED.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he must complain of the revenue of this country being saddled with an annual sum by way of compensation to certain gentlemen whose offices were to be abolished by this Bill.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, there was another important branch of the question involved by this Bill, which would no doubt interest the hon. Member for Lambeth—namely the proper administration of jus-
  742
  tice. He (the Attorney General) had often heard the hon. Gentleman urge the propriety of granting au equal measure of justice to both countries. He should be able to direct the hon. Gentleman's attention to measures of a precisely similar character which had been passed for England. Now the reasons for the Bill were these: in feudal times there were things in Ireland called manors. The grantee of a manor had power to constitute a court, the Judge of which was supposed to be the seneschal of the manor or the steward. Such a system might have been necessary in feudal times, but was decidedly most inapplicable to the present. Occasionally there was found presiding in those courts some men of sense, for whom the people felt much respect; but the system of those courts became very bad from the fact of the sittings being held in publichouses. The whole subject had been investigated by a Select Committee, which had sat for three or four Sessions. That Committee made recommendations for the improvement of those courts which had never been carried out. Those courts had sometimes a very large jurisdiction and at other times a very small jurisdiction. The decisions of the manor courts were constantly reversed. The assistant barrister's court had proved most efficient in working; meanwhile the manor courts fell into disuse, but were not abolished. It was absurd to have two sets of courts existing side by side, and there was but one opinion in Ireland upon this question.
  MR. KIRKsaid, that the seneschal of the manor court acted also as returning officer, and if the manor courts were to be abolished there ought to be a provision for making the sheriff of the county the returning officer. The term "emolument" was one of rather wide signification, and some precise definition of it ought to be given, or otherwise it would give the seneschals a title to a larger amount of compensation than they ought to receive.
  MR. DAVISONsaid, no greater boon than the abolition of the manor courts could be conferred upon Ireland. He knew something of their administration, and in one court the seneschal was in the habit of charging the successful party, whether plaintiff or defendant, a shilling to be spent in drink by the jury. A poor man who had got his case was once going away without paying the shilling, which in fact he was unable to raise, and the seneschal called after him "Oh, very

  743
  well—wait till you bring another case into this court, and you shall see what happens then."
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDurged, that the House ought to have more information supplied as to what would be the financial effect of the measure.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he must demand that the question of compensation should take precedence of the other portions of the Bill, which might be discussed after the cost of abolishing these courts should be determined.
  LORD NAASobserved, that according to the rules of the House, they could not proceed with the compensation clauses of the Bill until after a Resolution, authorising compensation to be granted, had been passed in Committee of Supply; it was therefore proposed to take the other clauses of the Bill now.
  MR. DE VEREsaid, he also must express his opinion that the Bill should not be proceeded with until the compensation question had been discussed.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he wished to intimate his intention of dividing the House upon the Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair.
  LORD NAASsaid, in that case he would agree to postpone the Bill until after the other orders of the day, with the view to let the Resolution on compensation be proposed in the preliminary Committee and then proceed with the Bill.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Committee deferred till after the other Orders of the Day.

RECEIVERS IN CHANCERY (IRELAND) ABOLITION, &c. BILL.

  SECOND READING DEFERRED.
  MR. WHITESIDE MR. WHITESIDE moved that the Bill be now read the second time.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, he must press the right hon. Gentleman to postpone both this Bill and the Sale and Transfer of Land (Ireland) Bill for ten days or a fortnight, on the ground that they bad only just been printed, and there had been no time, therefore, to consider them, or to communicate with persons in Ireland in reference to them. Both Bills were of a large character, and would, if passed, affect the interests of the people very considerably. In amending the law of the
  744
  country, they ought all to entertain only one view—namely, that of the public good. He only desired that the profession generally should have time to consider the provisions of the measures.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, that when he sat on the other side of the House he had frequent occasion to complain that Irish business, however important it might be, was not introduced until late in the Session, when it was impossible to consider it properly. During the recess his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, had urgently pressed upon the Irish Government the necessity of being ready with the Irish Bills at an early period, and had himself come over to Ireland for the purpose of arranging personally the Irish legislation of the Session. In obedience to the wishes of the Cabinet these two Bills had been prepared and laid before Parliament immediatety on its meeting. If, however, it were understood that hon. Gentleman opposite would then be prepared to discuss and come to a decision on these Bills, he should have no objection to postpone them for a week or ten days; but none of the other Irish Bills which were ready to be introduced would be proceeded with until these measures were disposed of.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 3rd March.

MANOR COURTS (IRELAND)—COMPENSATION, &c.

  COMMITTEE.
  The House in Committee.
  Question again proposed,—
  "That provision be made, out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, for the payment of Compensations to Seneschals or Stewards of Manor Courts in Ireland whose offices may be abolished by any Act of the present Session."
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, it was not his intention to oppose the Bill on this subject. He thought it a good measure, and one which would receive support, whether carried in this Session or at a future time. The Courts to be abolished were held under ancient charters and patents, and, according to established precedent, the Committee would have to grant compensation to the Judges of the Courts if they were abolished, and he was at a loss to understand how they could calculate the compensation, except upon the full emoluments of the offices. Before they passed this Resolution, therefore, they ought to

  745
  have before them a statement, showing what the financial effect of the measure would be. In 1842 a return of the Courts was moved for, and was afterwards presented, and it showed that in thirty-two counties there were about 193 of these courts, but no return was made respecting those in the County Cork and six other counties. The emoluments, it appeared, were very considerable, and if this measure were passed, it would be essential that they should provide compensation for all, whatever the number of Judges might be, and he believed they considerably exceeded 200. The course he would suggest was this: that in order to save the large burden which would inevitably fall upon the finances of the country, the House should merely pass a measure to prevent any Judges being appointed in future to these Courts, and, in the meantime, should provide for the extension of jurisdiction of the County Courts. Until that were done, it was absolutely essential that these Manor Courts should be preserved as they now existed. They could easily provide for the extension of the County Courts and Assistant Barristers' Courts, and make their sittings more frequent and the expenses of those Courts less. The County Courts of England and those of Ireland, let it be remembered, were not analagous in their jurisdiction and the manner in which it was exercised. If such a proposition as he ventured to suggest were carried out, in a few years these Manor Courts would disappear, while they would avoid having forced upon them claims for compensation. The delay might enable them to mature a well-considered plan fur the extension of the County Courts in Ireland, and the assimilation of them to those in England.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he must confess he was surprised at the course taken by the right hon. and learned Gentleman relative to this measure. He should have thought that if any Motion would have met with unanimous approval, it would have been that before the Committee. He had heard described by the most eminent Judges in Ireland the evils that arose from the present system of Manor Courts—perjury, falsehood, and perverse litigation. The late Mr. O'Connell had denounced them, and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland (Mr. Napier) had declared them to be a nuisance to the public which required abatement. The Commission which had considered the subject had not directly recommended their abolition, but there could
  746
  be no doubt of their opinion that it was desirable to make the County Courts more widely available, and to get rid of the Manor courts as soon as possible. The seneschal, who was appointed by the lord of the manor, might be a man without learning—nay, devoid even of education or of principle—he might be incapable of determining the value of evidence, and ignorant of the law which he sat to administer. In the face of such evils did it become a man who had held the high office of Attorney General for Ireland to put in what might be called a dilatory plea, because he feared the finances of the country might be endangered? The objections urged by the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not exist, for by the 14 & 15 Vict., c. 87, it was provided that the Privy Council in Ireland might increase the number of places in counties where the assistant barristers should sit, so that, if the people desired it, extension of jurisdiction could be made under that Act. Moreover, by the existing law the magistrates had power to decide disputes concerning wages up to £10, and disputes at fairs up to £5; and this Bill proposed to give them the decision in cases of small debts, up to 20 s., with an appeal to the County Court Judge. He submitted that a more sensible, reasonable, or useful provision could not be made on behalf of the poor. It was, in fact, a measure for the better administration of justice to the poor. Government and Parliament existed for the administration of justice, and they could not apply a small portion of the finances of the country—to which, it should be remembered, all contributed—more wisely or more beneficially than in giving to the poor that justice which they could not obtain in the present extortionate courts, which were originally nothing better than privileged plunderers. Would the Committee, then, hesitate to do for Ireland that which they did for this country when they established the English County Courts? Compensation had been granted to displaced officers in England, why, then, should not a similar course be taken with regard to Ireland, especially as the stamp duties, which it was intended to impose on the processes that would be issued, would be more than sufficient to cover the compensation? Why, it had been asked, was not a statement of the amount of compensation brought forward? He had abstained from expressing his intention to introduce the measure, lest returns should be manufactured as the basis of claims. The word

  747
  "emoluments" had been objected to. All he could say was, that he found it in the English Acts, but that if it were thought desirable he would put it out. He had provided that the Chief Secretary should have power to order all papers connected with these local courts to be deposited in a certain office, and his object was not only to preserve the documents, but to enable those who wished to ascertain what the actual working of any court had been to do so accurately. In conclusion, the Attorney General said his only object was to substitute good courts for bad ones. There was no way of getting rid of the seneschals except by giving them compensation; and he had no doubt that the Gentlemen at the Treasury would take care to give them no more than they deserved, and perhaps the amount might turn out to be a great deal less than they expected.
  MR. DAVISONsaid, he once had the honour of holding the office of seneschal of four of these courts for extensive manors, and he never realized more than £50 a year out of a court. The amount of compensation could not, therefore, be very large. But one of the principal evils that came under his cognisance was this—that the disappointed suitors in the County Courts invariably came for a re-hearing to the Manor Courts.
  MR. WILSONsaid, he was quite willing to admit that the principle of the Resolution followed the principle of the County Court Bill for this country. With regard to the County Courts, it was found necessary to clear away the whole of the local courts, which would only have stood in their way, and therefore nobody could disagree as to the necessity, when they were erecting new and superior courts, to clear away all the inferior tribunals. When this principle was introduced in England, the local courts were cleared away by degrees, as the other courts were established, so that the opportunity was not taken away of trying small causes without furnishing a much better tribunal than formerly existed. With regard to the amount of compensation, he thought it was very moderate. But the chief point to which he wished to advert was particularly applicable to the Resolution now before the House. It appeared that this charge for compensation was to be made on the Consolidated Fund. Now, he felt it would be much better to alter this and make it a vote of Parliament—to take the charge off the Consolidated Fund and charge it on "moneys which
  748
  shall be voted by Parliament for the purpose."
  LORD NAASsaid, there would be no objection on the part of the Government to make the suggested alteration.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Then the question will be that the Motion be withdrawn.
  MR. WILLIAMSsaid, he would beg to ask on what ground it was to be withdrawn? He wished to take the sense of the House on it.
  LORD NAASreplied on the ground that instead of providing for the compensation out of the Consolidated Fund it was to be provided out of money to be voted annually by Parliament for the purpose.
  Motion by leave withdrawn.
  On a Resolution that certain stamp duties should be changed on forms of process.
  MR. WILLIAMSsaid, it was monstrous for the Committee to be called on to vote these stamp duties in the dark. The Committee did not know either the number of officers, their emoluments, or the sum to be voted for compensation. When he objected to the compensation given to the Six Clerks he was assured by the legal advisers of the Crown of that day that the amount would not be more than £600 or £700 a year, but the suns had proved to be just as many thousands.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, the hon. Gentleman was under some mistake. The stamp duties were on the processes issued by the magistrates with regard to cases under 20 s.
  MR. HATCHELLinquired how the stamp duties were to be applied?
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, they would go to covet the expenses.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, on the contrary, they would go into the fund which provided for the petty sessions clerk, and the public would get nothing from them.
  MR. WHITESIDEremarked that every suit for more than 20 s. must go into the County Courts when the Manor Courts were abolished, and would there pay fees and stamps. The stamps mentioned in this clause were to cover the expenses of the small claims in the Petty Sessions Court.
  MR. HASSARD: The fees do not now go to the clerks; the clerks are paid by fixed salaries. We are fighting with a shadow. I do believe that from the quantity of business driven into the County Courts an ample fund will be realized to pay all the compensations; but, even if there should be a deficiency, I do not think we ought to

  749
  hesitate to impose the compensation upon the Consolidated Fund.
  MR. MONSELLsaid, he wished to ask whether the suitor in the Petty Sessions Court was not subjected by this Bill to a double payment?
  MR. WHITESIDEreplied in the negative.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSobserved, it was evident that the stamp duties must be granted.
  Resolved—That the following Stamp Duties shall be charged on Forms of Process to be served on Defendants under the said Act:—

  s.

  d.

  For every original Proof

  …

  0

  6

  For every Copy thereof served

  …

  0

  6

  For every Certificate on Appeal

  …

  1

  0

  Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

THE MANOR COURTS, &c (IRELAND BILL).

  COMMITTEE.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee).
  Clause 1.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDmoved the omission of all the words after "Act" in the first line, for the purpose of substituting "from and after the passing of the Act no new Judge shall be appointed for any Manor Court." He wished that these courts should be allowed to die out. No Member of the Government had given the Committee the slightest approximation to the probable amount of expenses. He granted these courts ought to be abolished; but at the same time there ought to be some statement from Ministers as to what the effect of the measure might be. The expense, for aught that appeared, might be £5000, £10,000, or £20,000, and the Committee really ought to be told what the amount was likely to be. It was said that the stamp duties would provide for the expense, but those duties would go into a fund at Dublin Castle, out of which petty sessions clerks were to be paid. The preliminary stamp would be 6d. on each process. Would the Government say that the compensations should all be paid out of that stamp?
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he had in this Bill followed exactly the course pursued in England, in which, on the establishment of County Courts, local courts were abolished, their officers receiving compensation; and he thought it would be contrary
  750
  to sound policy to apply one rule to England and another to Ireland. There already existed power in the Privy Council to direct the County Courts in Ireland to hold more frequent sittings.
  MR. WILSONsaid, he desired to know if it was to be understood that these courts were not to be abolished until a proper substitute was found to supply their place?
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, there were County Courts in every county in Ireland, and power was given by the Act of Parliament to order them to hold their sittings more frequently, and also to sit in districts where they had never sat before. This would be sufficient for dealing with all cases of importance; whilst there were not less than 570 courts in Ireland which sat every week to settle cases of 20 s. and under.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, the Manor Courts enabled persons to recover small debts every three weeks, whereas if this Bill passed parties would be obliged to go to the Assistant Barrister's Court, which only sat at intervals of two or three months. He thought the latter courts might be made to sit more frequently.
  MR. SPAIGHTsaid, that as the life or death of the Bill depended upon the vote the Committee was about to give, he would suggest that the question at issue was entirely a trial between principle and expediency. Now, no one could doubt that the Manor Courts of Ireland were a disgrace to the administration of justice, and that the chief sufferers from them were the poorer classes. He was acquainted with one of those courts, not one hundred miles away from the place where he lived, which was presided over by a person who neither by station nor acquirements was fitted for a judicial office, and it was understood in that court that the party who offered the handsomest present had the best chance of success. He trusted, therefore, that the Committee would not throw over a Bill which every one admitted was necessary and its principle a sound and just one, merely because it would involve some pecuniary cost, especially as Parliament had not hesitated to give compensation for the removal of similar nuisances in this country.
  MR. SERJEANT DEASYsaid, he was unwilling that the Bill should be lost simply on financial grounds. It was a measure that was calculated to do great good in Ireland, and he recommended his right hon. and learned Friend to allow the clause to pass.
  MR. RICHARDSONsaid, that the Manor Courts in Ireland were not fairly represented by the instance given by the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Spaight). There was a Manor Court in his own neighbourhood, which was presided over by a man of ability, high character, and a magistrate of the county, and that up to this moment he had never heard a single complaint against that gentleman's decisions. It would be wrong, therefore, for the Committee to adopt the impression that all the Manor Courts in Ireland were equally worthless and improperly conducted. It was a matter of great importance that a substitute should be found for these courts in the event of their being dispensed with. And whilst the subject of compensation was under discussion he thought it would be only fair to take into account the compensation which ought to be given to the registrars of the courts, who, in his view, had as much right to be compensated for the loss of their offices as the Judges themselves.
  MR. SPAIGHTsaid, he did not mean to pass a sweeping censure upon every person who presided in a Manorial Court in Ireland. He only spoke so far as his own experience went.
  MR. MONSELLsaid, that with respect to what had been said upon the necessity of finding a substitute, he might remind the Committee that in many parts of Ireland Manor Courts did not exist at all, and that in his own neighbourhood, where that was the case, not the slightest difficulty or inconvenience had been felt from their absence. As to compensation, the amount that would probably accrue to the Consolidated Fund from the stamps and expenses which the suitors had to pay, he presumed, upon an average, would be 2s. 6d. or 3s. a case; the Report of the Committee set the average at about 4s. 6d.; so that it was easy to measure by that the slight deficiency which would have to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. The principle of compensation had been recognized in the courts of this country where a great public advantage had accrued by the expenditure of a not very large amount of money, and it would be rather hard not to apply the same principle in this case.
  MR. BEAMISHsuggested that the Amendment should be withdrawn; for, if the first clause were rejected, the Bill would necessarily fall to the ground; and
  752
  the sooner these courts were got rid of the better.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, that seeing the general opinion of the Committee was in favour of the withdrawal of his Amendment, he would consent to do so.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 2 and 3.
  Clause 4 (Compensation to Seneschals or Stewards of Manor Courts).
  MR. GROGANsaid, he would move, as an Amendment, to omit the word "steward" and insert the words "other officers" instead thereof.
  MR. DAVISONsaid, he had had much experience of these courts, and, in his opinion, there was not another officer besides the seneschal who was entitled to one farthing of compensation. Generally speaking, he believed it would be found that the registrars were clerks in the office of the seneschal or steward, and paid by him at salaries. It would be monstrous, therefore, to award them compensation.
  MR. VANCEsaid, he should support the Amendment, as there were registrars and marshals to some of these courts in Dublin.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he could not consent to admit the claim of the registrars to compensation unless they could show that they were in the receipt of legal fees that would be taken away from them by this Bill.
  MR. SERJEANT DEASYsaid, that if they adopted the Amendment of the hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Grogan) they would open the door to every officer of the court to claim compensation, and they would never know where it was to cease.
  MR. GROGANreplied, that if the officers of the court had no legal claim, of course they would get nothing; but let not the Committee, by their legislation, do a practical injustice, and shut them out from the possibility of establishing a just claim if they had one.
  LORD NAASsaid, he believed the registrars did not derive any emoluments from fees which were levied according to law. He presumed they were appointed and paid by the seneschal out of his fees. That being so they could have no claim for compensation under this Bill.
  MR. RICHARDSONsaid, he had received a letter from the registrar of a Manor Court, in which the writer stated

  753
  that for thirteen years he had been paid in salary and fees, and that he considered it a hard case that he should now be dismissed from an office which he had expected to hold for life without obtaining any compensation. The proposition of the hon. Member (Mr. Grogan) was a fair one.
  MR. HATCHELLremarked, that if Parliament were bound to compensate the seneschal they were also bound to compensate other officers who had an equally legal claim.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, that these officers were recognized by the Act 7 & 8 Geo. IV., c. 59, s. 5, and that in the list of fees attached to that Act were enumerated those which were to be paid to the registrar as well as the seneschal of a Manor Court.
  MR. KIRKsaid, he objected to the use of the word "officer," as that might include the person who swept the floor.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he proposed to amend the clause by inserting after the word "steward" the following words, "registrar or marshal of any Manor Court where such officer has been created by the charter of such manor respectively."
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment made.
  MR. BLAKEsaid, he should move in line 37 of the same clause, after the word "office," the insertion of the words, "and every permanent president of every Court of Conscience, such as Waterford, whose emoluments may become diminished by reason of the passing of this Act."
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he must object to the Amendment as one for which there was no precedent whatever.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. SERJEANT DEASYsaid, he had to move an Amendment, the effect of which would be to allow the Treasury to inquire into the conduct of the officers of those courts previous to granting them compensation.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he had no objection to the Amendment.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDobserved, that the Treasury, as now constituted, could never inquire into the conduct of these 300 officers of Manor Courts. In fact the Amendment would impose duties on the Treasury which they would not be able to perform.
  MR. SERJEANT DEASYsaid, he believed the effect of this Amendment would be to deter those officers who were conscious of malversation from making any application for Compensation at all.
  MR. DE VEREremarked, that he was afraid his hon. and learned Friend took too sanguine a view of the consciences of those gentlemen.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he quite agreed in the object of the Amendment, but he felt it would be difficult to make the inquiry proposed, and he would, therefore, abide by the clause as it stood.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. KIRKsaid, he would now propose an Amendment to prevent compensation being given for the loss of emoluments and confine it to legal fees.
  Amendment proposed to leave out the words "and emoluments."
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he had followed the words of the English Act, and must therefore oppose the Amendment.
  Question put, "That the words 'and Emoluments,' stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided: Ayes 40; Noes 46: Majority 6.
  On the Question that the clause as amended stand part of the Bill.
  MR. WILLIAMSsaid, he should oppose the clause altogether. They had a proposition for giving compensation to parties of whom they knew nothing; of the manner in which they performed their duties they knew nothing; and of the amount of compensation to be given they knew nothing. Under such circumstances he must object to its being paid out of the taxes of this country.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he must admit that he knew little of the amount of compensation to be given, but he believed the hon. Gentleman opposite knew less. He had followed the precedent set in the English Bill, and he would remind the hon. Gentleman that this measure would secure a great practical boon to the country, which could not be got without compensation to the present officers, which, after all, he believed would not amount to much.
  MR. COXsaid, he should support the Amendment on the ground that the Committee had no information either as to the number of men to be compensated, or the sum to be given them. The Committee was asked to vote in the dark.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEexplained that the precedent was drawn from the English Bill, and the compensation was strictly limited to those who were actually in office. The only difference was that greater precautions were taken against abuse. There was no fixed sum to be given, but the Treasury was empowered to

  755
  inquire into all the circumstances of each court and award them compensation accordingly. There need be no fear that the Treasury would exercise their discretion with a view to the strictest economy.
  MR. SPAIGHTobjected to the expression of the hon. Member for Lambeth, (Mr. W. Williams) that the charge of this compensation would fall upon English taxpayers. It would be defrayed out of the Imperial purse, and would therefore, equally affect both Irish and English contributors to the Imperial revenues.
  MR. WALPOLEexplained the circumstances under which compensation was given to the Six Clerks in Chancery, to which reference had been made, and the error which was committed in fixing its amount; and argued that no parallel could be drawn between such compensation and that provided for by the clause under discussion.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, that if these offices were to be abolished their holders, must, in justice, receive compensation, and he should therefore vote for the clause.
  Question put, "That Clause 4, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided: Ayes 91; Noes 12: Majority 79.
  Clause added.
  Clause 5.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, he moved that the word "two" be substituted for the word "one" in line 24. His object was to give the Petty Sessions Court, which was a cheap and en easily accessible Court, jurisdiction for the recovery of debts to the amount of £2.
  MR. COGANsupported the Amendment.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, it was quite a novel proposal to give the petty sessions jurisdiction in matters of contract, except between master and servant and in questions arising out of fairs and markets, but he would agree to the Amendment.
  Amendment made accordingly.
  MR. SERJEANT DEASYsaid, he would suggest that the court should have the power of awarding costs to an amount not exceeding 5s.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he would accept the suggestion.
  Clause as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 6 postponed.
  Clause 7 and 8 agreed to.
  committee report progress; to sit again To-morrow.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock.