Sitting of 5 April 1859

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Maidstone Waterworks.
3° Public Offices Extension; Indemnity.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL WILSON PATTENsaid, he wished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman who holds the position of Chairman of Committees with respect to the Private Business of the House. Many hon. Members now serving on Committees on Private Bills felt the necessity, under the present circumstances, of going into the country; and it would not be at all convenient to detain them longer than was necessary. The question therefore, he had to put was whether the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to move on the present occasion a Resolution of a similar character to that he moved previous to the late Dissolution of Parliament, to the effect that Private Bills might be taken up in a future Session of Parliament at the stage at which they were dropped in the present. He wished also to know whether there was any objection to permitting Committees on Private Bills to defer the consideration of any further Bills in the group except those actually under discussion.
  MR. FITZROYreplied that with reference to the first question he was prepared to submit to the House in the course of a day or two a Resolution similar to that which he moved prior to the Dissolution of 1857, with the exception of some slight alteration which had been made in the standing Orders having reference to the subscription contract. With reference to the second question whether he should be prepared to move that no further proceedings should take place respecting any Private Bill beyond those under discussion, he
  1384
  should not do so unless it was for the convenience of hon. Members, because in many groups the Members of the Committee were prepared to continue their proceedings with respect to all the Bills in the group. If such should be the determination of any Committee it would be for the convenience of all parties, and save great expense with respect to witnesses, &c. It was not, however, for him to make any suggestions to Committees with respect to matters under their own consideration, and he should therefore be perfectly prepared to propose a Resolution to the effect that when it should appear to the Committee right that no further proceedings should be taken on Bills before them they should have power to report the same to the House, and that no further proceedings should be taken upon such Bills would be provided for in the subsequent Resolution he should move.

THE PHŒNIX SOCIETY TRIALS.

  QUESTION.
  CAPTAIN D. O'CONNELLsaid, he would beg to inquire of the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, in the absence of the Attorney General, if it be a fact, as stated by the Irish Papers, that at the late Trial at Tralee of Daniel Sullivan, accused of being a member of the Phoenix Society, the eleven Roman Catholic Jurors who were called and answered were directed to "stand by" by the Crown, and that one of the persons so excluded was a magistrate of the county Kerry, appointed by the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland?
  LORD NASSstated in reply, that the only official report he had received upon the subject was that furnished by the Crown Solicitor, which was to the effect that they had called over 108 Jurors, several of whom had answered to their names; that the prisoner had challenged twenty of them and the Crown fifteen, whereupon the jury was sworn and the prisoner was put upon his trial. He did not know whether the report in the newspapers was correct or not, and therefore he was not in a position to answer that question.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he rose to move that on this and every succeeding day of the Session Government Orders of the day should have precedence of Motions.
MR. SPOONER, (who had given notice

1385
of a Motion with respect to the Maynooth Grant) said, that he did not intend to resist the Motion, because he was not in the habit of acting against the wishes of the House, and he was sure he would be acting against their wish were he to interpose his Motion at the present time. As, however, he was not able to bring the Motion on that night, he did not think it worth while to hold it in abeyance. He saw no opportunity of bringing it forward this Session; but at the same time he must be permitted to say that he did not think his right hon. Friend below him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had treated him very well in this matter. His Motion had been twice postponed in consequence of the protracted debate on Parliamentary Reform; and if he gave way on the present occasion he would say it was not because he had at all altered the opinions he had formed, but because he believed that forcing on the discussion at the present moment would do more harm to the cause than good. Indeed, if any decision were taken upon it, it could not be called a vote of the House, seeing that, as they had heard, many hon. Members were most anxious to go into the country, and no doubt many had gone already. He was convinced that the feeling of the country was that a Conservative Government ought to set their faces against a grant which was contrary to the constitution and inimical to the Protestant religion. He believed that the continuance of that grant was fraught with great social evil; that it was in complete contradiction to the oath which the Sovereign had taken; and that the country never would be satisfied until the principles of the constitution and the Protestant religion should be maintained both in Church and State. He thought that his right hon. Friend and the Government would find it impossible to retain the confidence of the country long if they persisted as hitherto in the support of this grant. While, however, he did not press the Motion of which he had given notice he wished to know whether the hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Berkeley), who bad just given notice of the introduction of his annual Motion on the Ballot, was not to have the same measure meted out to him, and also whether the Roman Catholic Oath Bill, which stood as the first Order of the day, was to be proceeded with?
MR. BENTINCKremarked, that in his opinion the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) had certainly received very hard measure from the Go-
1386
vernment. He thought it would be for the convenience of the House if his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would state whether he proposed to deal in the same manner with the Motion of the hon. Member for Bristol.
MR. COGANsaid, that it was of the utmost importance that he should bring before the House a Motion which stood in his name with respect to the conduct pursued by the Admiralty towards the Royal Yacht Club. The Admiralty had withdrawn its flags from this club, which contained 150 yachts and 400 members, and the result would be that a dissolution of the club must take place if the matter were not shortly taken into consideration. He must, therefore, appeal to the courtesy of the Government to grant him an opportunity of bringing it before the House.
MR. BERKELEYsaid, that hon. Gentlemen seemed to think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was inclined to extend more favour to him than to any one else. All he could say with respect to the Motion of which he had given notice was, that he considered it so important that the question of the ballot should be discussed that if he could find no other opportunity he should bring it on, on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply.
MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, he wished to announce that it was not his intention to proceed with the Roman Catholic Oath Bill, but that, if it should be his good fortune to be a Member of the next Parliament, he would take the earliest opportunity of re-submitting it to the House.
MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he wished to ask what understanding had been come to with the hon. Member for Tavistock (Sir John Trelawny) with regard to the Church-rates Abolition Bill?
MR. DILLWYNsaid, that his hon. Friend the Member for Tavistock had requested him to move, that the Order of the day in reference to the Church-rates Abolition Bill should be discharged; but the question would be renewed in the ensuing Parliament.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that with regard to the question whether the same rule was to be applied to the hon. Member for Bristol as had been brought to bear upon the hon. Member for North Warwickshire, he had to state that of course it was intended that a rule of that kind should be general and impartial.
Resolved, That Government Orders of

1387
the Day take precedence of Notices of Motions on this and on all subsequent days until the end of the Session.
Motion agreed to.

SUPERANNUATION BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read;
  House in Committee.
  Postponed Clause 13.
  MR. COGANsaid, he would move to substitute the word "seventy" for the words "sixty-five." He observed that it was not found that persons in other classes of life were unable to perform their duties, and he could not see why the civil servants should be compelled to retire from their situations at a time when they might be well fitted to perform their duties. Moreover, the compulsory retirements of these gentlemen would place a great burden on the country.
  Amendment proposed in page 5, line 22, to leave out the words "sixty-five," and insert the word "seventy" instead thereof.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, that according to the present state of the law, the contemplated age of retirement was sixty-five, as no person could retire without a medical certificate until he reached that age. Of course there were cases in which persons were efficient beyond that age, and it was desirable that such persons should continue in the service of the country; but there were a great many other cases in which the employed became less efficient after a long period of service. It was always in the power of the Government to tell those individuals to go, but that was a painful step for any department to take, and it was, therefore, now proposed that at sixty-five years of age retirement should be the rule, and staying the exception. The effect of this would be, that efficient persons would be asked to stay. The number of persons in the public service to whom this clause would apply was not more than 300, and he thought it was very desirable for the interests of those gentlemen, and of the service generally, that the age of retirement specified in the clause—namely, sixty-five—should be adopted. The current of promotion was stopped when old officers retained their positions, and it was natural that such persons should desire to remain in office, in order to obtain the higher salaries to which they were entitled, rather than submit to a reduction of one-third of their incomes
  1388
  on superannuation. He believed the adoption of this rule would effect a saving to the public, and he thought it desirable that it should come into operation at the beginning of next year, instead of being postponed for three years.
  SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, he had considerable doubts as to the propriety of the clause. Under the present law persons in the public service could not be superannuated, except on medical certificate, under the age of sixty-five; but after the age of sixty-five no certificate was necessary, and persons might then retire voluntarily or might be required by the Treasury to retire. He thought there should be a power on the part of the Treasury to enforce the retirement of persons who were beyond a certain age, and who were unfit to discharge their duties efficiently, but he did not see the advantage of making retirement at a particular age compulsory. Under such a system, officers who were immediately under the eye of the Treasury, and who were efficient servants, would be asked to retain their positions; but woe betide the unfortunate men at a distance with whose merits the Treasury were unacquainted. He doubted whether it was advisable to place in the hands of the Treasury a power which he feared even the most impartial Government would he unable to exercise without causing dissatisfaction.
  MR. BLACKsaid, he also must oppose the clause. The rule proposed of compulsory retirement at the age of sixty-five years would operate with great hardship in the case of those gentlemen who were already in the public service, particularly in the case of those who had entered the service at the age of about thirty. If they were able to perform their duties, and could produce a certificate to that effect, and if they attended at the office regularly, they ought not to be obliged to retire. It would be a most invidious task for the Treasury to perform to compel men to retire if they were able to go on with their duties.
  ALDERMAN SALOMONSsaid, he should support the clause as it stood, as he considered the age of sixty-five a very fair limit. It would be a great advantage if a public department like the Treasury should be able to refer to a fixed period of age as that at which public servants should retire. The Treasury had the power to enable persons to remain in their offices if it should be for the public advantage; but

  1389
  he objected to persons remaining so long in their offices as to entirely prevent all promotion amongst the younger men.
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, that what he objected to was the retrospective operation of the clause. It probably would be beneficial if in future the age of sixty-five were fixed as the period for retirement; but with the qualification, that if men continued to perform their duties efficiently, they might be permitted to go on. The circumstances of each case should be inquired into, and decided upon accordingly. As to any officers now in the service, they ought not to be compelled to retire except on their full salaries.
  MR. WILSONsaid, the House had already passed a measure which reduced the age at which public officers could voluntarily retire from the service from sixty-five to sixty, and having thus shortened the period of voluntary retirement by five years, it seemed but fair that they should fix a limit on what retirement should be for the compulsory clause. The effect would be to render the entire service younger and more efficient. In an old service all the clerks were at the maximum salaries of their respective classes, but in a younger service, although more efficient, the average of salaries would be lower. It was proposed, however, that heads of departments should have power to recommend particular persons for longer service, and it would be on their recommendation that the Treasury would act. The regulation had received considerable attention both from the present and the late Governments, and he should advise the House to accept it. It was erroneous to suppose that the expense to the public was to be calculated according to the amount of the pension.
  Question put, "That the words 'sixty-five" stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 147; Noes 128: Majority 19.
  MR. STEUARTsaid, he would move the insertion in line 24, after the word "shall," "after the 1st day of January, 1860, be compelled to." He thought the clause in its original form might fall with great injustice upon many gentlemen in the public service, who would be taken by surprise, and therefore he proposed a medium course by postponing the operation of the clause for three years.
  Amendment proposed, in line 24, after the word "shall," to insert the words "after the first day of January one thou-
  1390
  sand eight hundred and sixty-three be compelled to."
  Sin STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he must oppose the Amendment.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 50; Noes 203: Majority 153.
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, he would than move that in Clause 13, line 27, the words from "receive" to the end of the clause be left out, with the view of adding the following words:—
  "The full superannuation allowance which could be granted by the Act under which he entered the service for the service which the shall then have completed, and in addition thereto the allowance under this Act for each year's service beyond the quinquennium."
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, that with respect to the quinquennium the hon. and gallant Gentleman must bear in mind that if a person served between twenty-five and thirty years be was entitled to a certain rate of remuneration.
  COLONEL NORTHobserved, that he was satisfied with the explanation of the hon. Baronet, and would beg to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment by leave withdrawn.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he then moved the addition of the following proviso:—
  "Provided that this enactment shall not apply to persons holding any of the offices mentioned in the schedule to this Act, it shall be lawful for the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury, by order or warrant, under the hands of any two or more of them, to add to the said schedule any other office or offices which now exist, or may be hereafter created or established, the nature and functions of which shall render its or their exclusion from the operation of the said enactment desirable; in every which order or warrant the reasons for adding such office shall be stated; and a copy of every such order or warrant shall be laid before Parliament within one month after the making thereof, if Parliament be then sitting, and if not then within one month after the next sitting of Parliament."
  SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid he wished to ask whether it was intended to exclude from the provision respecting compulsory retirement all heads of boards?
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: Yes. They were scheduled.
  SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, he thought that the schedule should be carefully considered, so as to include all the parties it was really intended to reach. He mentioned, for example, the cases of Assistant

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  Secretary to the Admiralty, Assistant Commissioners for the time being. He apprehended there was no reason why such officials should not come under the same rule as Commissioners. There were also the cases of factory inspectors and of prison inspectors, which were not included in the schedule. There was a natural suspicion that such officers might he compelled to retire in order to afford opportunities for making new appointments; and the enumeration ought, therefore, to be made as complete as possible.
  COLONEL FRENCHsaid, he wished to ask under what class the Barrack-Masters and their Assistants would be placed. They were to all intents civil officers.
  MR. W. VANSITTARTsaid, a petition had been sent by the Masters of Workhouses, praying that provision should be made out of the rates for superannuation allowances to them. He mentioned the matter that his hon. Friend might consider whether be could do anything.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, the fact of certain officers being excluded from the operation of a provision of the Bill would furnish a sound reason in law for supposing that others who were not mentioned in the list were intended to be included. He would instance, as an example, the office of Under-Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, and that of the Registrar and Assistant Registrar of Deeds. He knew one of those Gentlemen in Ireland to be over sixty-five years of age. He hoped, if the Bill passed through Committee that evening, that it would be reprinted, so that it might be in its amended form placed in the hands of hon. Members on Thursday.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, it was not intended that the provision respecting compulsory retirements should affect officers of the classes alluded to. He admitted that the schedule was not sufficiently defined. He therefore proposed to reprint the Bill, with a more complete schedule. The measure did not profess to deal with the officers referred to by the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. W. Vansittart.)
  SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, he would suggest, as the hon. Gentleman proposed, to frame a new schedule, that the Treasury should have authority by warrant to add other offices to the schedule.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEobserved that with that view he would propose to insert the words "from time to time."
  MR. CRAUFURDsaid, he had heard no sufficient reason for proceeding with so important a Bill in the last hours of an expiring Parliament. The clause was so objectionable that he intended to move its rejection.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he would suggest that the consideration of the clause he postponed for the present, and that in the interval the Secretary of the Treasury should consider and specify what offices should be included in the list of exceptions.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he must join in the suggestion. The clause before the Committee was connected with another, and he was afraid that, do as they would, they would not be able to get over the giving a discretionary power to the Treasury; but he could see no reason, and he had heard none, why the Committee in legislating on a matter so delicate should not insist on carrying specification to the utmost point. Unfortunately, the clause had been drawn on the opposite principle. The exemptions from the operation of the Bill ought also to be as explicit as possible. He agreed with the hon. Member (Mr. Craufurd), that at this moment this was the last Bill of all with which they ought to proceed in a hurry, seeing that it connected itself more or less with the electioneering interests of almost every hon. Gentleman on both sides of the House. He also hoped before the Bill passed that the Secretary of the Treasury would be prepared to give the House an estimate of the probable addition which it would cause to the public expenditure.
  COLONEL FRENCHsaid, he wished to observe that the office of Under-Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was not a permanent one.
  SIR GEORGE LEWISsuggested that they had better name the offices to which the principle of compulsory retirement should apply. If it was only to apply to the clerks in the establishments of the public departments, would it not he better to make the clauses specify so much, and thereby limit its operation to that class of officials.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, that this clause was framed upon one drawn by the late Government. Such a provision was recommended by the Royal Commission, but he could assure the House that Her Majesty's Government had not introduced it for the purpose of obtaining patronage for themselves, They did not wish

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  to press the clause as it now stood, if the House saw any objection to that course, but what he would suggest was that they should pass the clause now and leave the offices to be specified in a, schedule to be hereafter added to the Bill. If, however, it should be thought better to provide by the clause itself that it should only be applicable to clerks in the public offices, it would be necessary to postpone the clause altogether, and bring it up on the Report. The latter, he confessed, would be the least convenient of the two courses, as in that case they might have to fight the battle of seventy versus sixty-five, and so on over again.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he wished to know whether the Bill was to apply to the clerks in the Emigration Office. They were anxious to obtain information on the subject. He had just received information to the effect that an officer who was in the receipt of a high salary and in the prime of life was about to retire to make way for a member of the Government.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, that some of the officers in the Emigration Office were paid by salaries guaranteed by the Imperial Treasury, while others were paid by salaries guaranteed by the Colonial Treasury only. He apprehended that the former class would be included in this clause.
  MR. WILSONsaid, he thought the insinuation thrown out that the Government wanted to pass the Bill for the purpose of obtaining immediate patronage was disposed of by the simple fact that the Bill would not come into operation until the 1st of January next, It appeared to him that the better course to pursue was to pass the clause as it stood, and then make the schedule to be attached to the Bill as perfect as possible.
  MR. COGANsaid, that after the feeling which had been exhibited by the Committee he must again press the Government to withdraw the Bill. There was no exigency in the case, and, considering the vast expense it would impose on the taxpayers of the country, it was only fair that the fullest opportunity should be afforded for discussing its provisions. If, however, it were proceeded with he would vote for the rejection of the clause as he had a strong feeling against compulsory retirement.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that except for public purposes, the Government were quite indif-
  1394
  ferent as to whether this Bill was proceeded with at present. If he followed his own inclination, indeed, he should have asked the House to proceed with no Bill previously to the dissolution; but it had been represented to him privately that there was very generally, much anxiety about this measure. He put it, as he thought, very fairly to a full House on the previous day. An hon. Gentleman on the Opposition side, who was a very great authority on those subjects, and who seemed to speak with the concurrence of both sides of the House, expressed an opinion that they ought to proceed with the Bill; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had not heard anything in the course of the discussion of the Bill in Committee which induced him to think that the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Wilson) was in error when he expressed that opinion. On the contrary, the attendance of hon. Members and the remarks that had fallen from several of those who had spoken, rather made him believe that the feeling of the House was in favour of proceeding with the measure. Therefore, believing that he represented the wishes of the House, he could not feel himself justified in not proceeding with the Bill. In reply to what had been said by the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams) as to some person who had been asked to vacate his office in order to make room for a friend of the Government, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had heard nothing of the case. If the hon. Member would favour him either privately or publicly with the particulars of the case he would make inquiries into it.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he had observed that he could not vouch for the story; he had only heard it; but he was sure that such cases would occur—he did not say under this or any other Government in particular—if a discretionary power was left with the Executive.
  SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, he hoped that the Committee would proceed with this Bill and finish it. A feeling of great anxiety prevailed among public servants with regard to the Bill; and nothing would be more inconvenient to the public service than that this class of persons should be looking to Members of Parliament, and not to the Government.
  MR. ELLICEsaid, he hoped the Bill would be passed. The postponement of the question would do great damage to the public service during the approaching elections.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, he believed that if this compulsory retirement clause were abandoned, the Bill might pass with general assent. His objections to the clause had by no means been removed by anything he had heard in the present discussion.
  SIR GEORGE LEWISsuggested, that the clause should be withdrawn, as it seemed difficult to make an exhaustive enumeration of officers to whom compulsory retirement should not apply. Indeed the principle of compulsory retirement was unnecessary as the Act only applied to officers held during pleasure.
  MR. WILSONsaid, that although he had supported the clause throughout, he now concurred in hoping the Government would withdraw it.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, the Government had not the slightest feeling with regard to the clause, except to make an arrangement which, upon high authority, they believed would be to the advantage of the Civil Service. The clause had been a good deal misunderstood, and therefore, under the circumstances, he would withdraw it.
  Amendment withdrawn.
  Clause negatived.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTECOTEsaid, that in order to answer the question, "Who are to be deemed civil servants," he proposed to move the following clause:—
  "For the purposes of this Act, no person hereafter to be appointed shall he deemed to have served in the permanent Civil Service of the State unless such person holds his appointment directly from the Crown, or has been admitted into the Civil Service with a certificate from the Civil Service Commissioners; nor shall any person, already appointed to any office, be held to have served in the permanent Civil Service as aforesaid unless such person belong to a class which is already entitled to superannuation allowance, or to a class in which, if he had been appointed thereto subsequently to the passing of this Act, he would, by virtue of the provision lastly hereinbefore contained, have become entitled to such allowance; and no person shall be entitled to any superannuation allowance under this Act, unless his salary or remuneration has been provided out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, or out of monies voted by Parliament."
  MR. WILSONsaid, he was perfectly satisfied with the clause, as he understood from the Secretary of the Treasury that the Civil Service Commissioners would, as a matter of form, countersign the appointments in the War Office, Admiralty, and other departments, on the representation of those departments that the requirements
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  of the Civil Service Commissioners were complied with.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONcould not see the use of the appointments in the Admiralty being countersigned by the Civil Service Commissioners, as they could not examine the candidates. What was the use of giving the Civil Service Commissioners a veto upon appointments the fitness of the person appointed to which they had no means of determining?
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, the Board of Audit would not grant superannuation unless the certificate of the Civil Service Commissioners was produced. The clause was for the purpose of introducing regularity into the service.
  Clause agreed to.
  MR. GROGANthen moved the following clause:—
  "Whereas, by the Act passed in the 19t!i and 20th years of Her Majesty, chap. 110, intituled 'An Act for the better regulation of the House of Industry Hospitals and other Hospitals in Dublin, supported wholly or in part by Parliamentary Grants,' provision is made for the grant of Superannuation allowances to the officers or servants of such House of Industry Hospitals or of the Lock Hospital in Dublin, who from confirmed sickness, age, or infirmity, shall become incapable of executing their offices in person; and whereas the funds annually voted by Parliament for the maintenance of the said Hospitals are inadequate to maintain the said Hospitals, and to pay such Superannuation allowances, and it is expedient that provision for the payment of such Superannuation allowances be made under this Act. Be it enacted, 'That it shall be lawful for the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury to grant such Superannuation or compensation allowances to the several officers or servants of the said Hospitals mentioned in the Schedule hereto annexed, according to their respective periods of service, previously to 1st April, 1857, in the Civil Service of the State, and subject to the like rules and provisions as they are hereby empowered to grant to persons who shall have served in the Civil Service of the State.' "
  Clause brought up and read 1°.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he was sorry to be obliged to oppose the Amendment of his hon. Friend; but he did not think that the institutions mentioned in the clause came within the scope of the Bill. If it was thought desirable that a scheme of superannuation should be applied to them, it ought to be done either by a separate vote, or by a Bill introduced for the purpose. He would rather not go into the circumstances of the particular cases, but would simply say, that it was impossible to introduce them into the Bill.
  MR. VANCEsaid, he thought that these were exceptional cases, and that it

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  was very hard that they should be omitted from the Bill.
  MR. W. WILLIAMScontended that such hospitals as these were mere private institutions, though they were partly supported by the Government.
  MR. GROGANsaid, that the hon. Gentleman was quite mistaken in this respect, for these hospitals had been supported from their first institution by the Government, and never had any other support except about £130, which they derived from private endowment.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 18; Noes 113: Majority 95.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, that hon. Gentlemen would remember that he had stated on a former occasion that he would endeavour, as far as possible, to make some kind of estimate of the expense the measure was likely to entail upon the public, but it would be found excessively difficult to form an accurate estimate upon the subject. As he had stated previous to going into Committee, no reliance could be placed on any calculation, because it could only be based upon the average age and period of service at which persons were now in the habit of retiring. At present they were retiring from the civil service under a scale of allowance which was much more favourable than the scale to be put in operation hereafter. He had endeavoured, however, to make an estimate, supposing that the rate of retirement would continue to be the same as now, and he calculated that, under the operation of this Bill, it might possibly cause an addition not exceeding, at the very outside, the sum of £70,000 a year. That was the result of bringing the Post Office within the operation of the measure, by which a very large number of persons would be added to those who were already entitled to superannuations. In fact, the great mass of addition to the expense would be occasioned by in-cluding the Post Office servants within the provisions of the Bill. There would be 6,000 or 7,000 persons thus brought under the operation of the Act, whose superannuations would cost about £40,000. The charge for officers in the dockyards and Customs could hardly reach £10,000, and it was just possible that under the operation of the modified scale some £20,000 might be added. Of course, when he put the total amount at £70,000; he put it at an outside figure; but he did
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  not believe that it would be more than £50,000.
  MR. COWANsaid, there was a class of civil servants who were paid not by salaries but for piece work. He alluded particularly to the clerks employed in the Registry Office in the city of Edinburgh. He wished to know if these persons were considered to have any claim under the provisions of this Bill to the benefit of superannuation?
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he had considered the case of persons of this description, but he feared it was impossible to include any others than those who were paid by salary within the provisions of the Bill.
  MR. CRAUFURDasked if the Bill would place the country letter-carriers on the same footing as the letter-carriers of the metropolis?
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, that all persons who either gave up or were required to give up their whole time to the service of the public were included; but there were persons employed under the Post Office who did not give up their whole time, but were engaged in other pursuits during a considerable portion of the day, and these would not be included. The country postmasters and letter-carriers who were wholly employed in the service of the Post Office would of course be included in the Bill.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, that he looked upon the Bill as one of the most unfortunate measures that had passed the House for a long time. He believed that, but for the private influence which had been brought to bear upon hon. Members, such a Bill as this, unconnected as it was with any revision of salaries, would never have received their assent. If he thought for a moment that he could get any support he would oppose it on the third reading.
  Preamble agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported as amended, to be considered Tomorrow.

COUNTY PRISONS (IRELAND) BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  LORD NAASsaid, that in moving that the House should go into Committee on this Bill, he wished to express the hope that, as no notice had been given of any Amendment upon it, and no objection had been yet taken to its provisions, he should be able

  1399
  to pass it through the House before the termination of the Session. If, however, there were any objection to proceeding further, he would not persist in his Motion.
  CAPTAIN D. O'CONNELLsaid, the Bill was a very long one, and he thought it would be impossible to discuss it satisfactorily at this period of the Session.
  MR. BEAMISHsaid, he was of a similar opinion.
  LORD NAASsaid, he would then consent that the Order should be discharged.
  Order discharged.
  Bill withdrawn.

MAIL SERVICE (GALWAY AND AMERICA.)

  PAPERS MOVED FOR.
  MR. HORSFALLsaid, he rose to call attention to the subject of the intended mail service between Galway and America, and to move for a copy of all correspondence connected therewith. He had no hostility to the proposed communication between Galway and America, nor was he influenced by any Liverpool feeling, because he knew that influential memorials in favour of the Galway line had been forwarded from the town which he had the honour to represent, and also from Manchester. But, as a general rule, he objected to all subsidies, and thought the postal service of the country might be efficiently performed without them. The fact that the contract with the Galway line had been entered into privately had given great umbrage to many persons, and, for his own part, he believed that the country would have gained by an open competition. So far back as October last, a rumour prevailed that it was the intention of the Government to grant a subsidy to the Galway line of steamers for carrying the mail between Galway and America. A company in Liverpool immediately wrote to the Treasury to inquire whether such was the case, and he rested the whole of his complaint upon the answer which they received. They were informed, in reply to their communication, that when a new postal service was about to be established by the Government it was the practice of the Treasury to invite tenders by public advertisement, thereby affording to all parties an opportunity of competing. Now, he thought that the Liverpool, Philadelphia, and New York Company to whom this answer was addressed, had some reason to complain that after such an assu-
  1400
  rance a contract should be entered into privately with the Galway line; and he hoped, at all events, that the Government would be able to give some satisfactory explanation upon the point. He would repeat that he had not the slightest hostility against the Galway line; on the contrary, he rejoiced when he saw it established.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, there could not, of course, be the slightest objection to produce the correspondence for which the hon. Member had moved. A great deal of it had already been published, and the Government were ready to lay upon the table the further correspondence which had taken place on the subject. The usual practice when any new line of postal communication was intended to be established was to advertise for tenders and an answer to that effect had been sent to the company to which the hon. Member had alluded; but the Government thought they were justified in treating the Galway line between Galway and America as an exceptional case, inasmuch as it was proposed not purely for postal purposes, but as a measure specially important to the interests of Ireland. It should be remembered that the circumstances which connected Ireland with America were peculiar. A large amount of emigration took place between the two countries, and it was most desirable that every facility should be given to it, especially in the way of affording direct means of communication. The class who emigrated from Ireland to America consisted principally of persons in humble circumstances, and if they were obliged to travel from the south or west of Ireland to England, and then to take their chance of finding a passage to America from an English port, they would obviously be exposed to considerable hardship, and he believed that in many cases intended Irish emigrants had become chargeable upon the Liverpool poor rates from their inability to proceed further. In addition to this, it was found that a large proportion of the postal communication between Great Britain and America—he believed about a third—belonged to Ireland. Under these circumstances a company was formed to establish a line of steamers between Galway and America. It entered into an arrangement with the Government of Newfoundland for the performance of a postal service, and it then asked for a subsidy from the Imperial Government, with the view of making that service more complete—converting it, in

  1401
  fact, into a service between Ireland and North America generally. Its application was backed by an overwhelming number of memorials from commercial bodies, not in Ireland merely, but throughout the United Kingdom, and the conclusion to which the Government came was that those who had originated the idea should be the persons authorized to carry it out. Precedents were not wanting for such a proceeding as the same course was adopted, if he was not mistaken, in the case of the Cunard line, and the public interest required that the authors of new and valuable schemes should be rewarded in order that others might be stimulated by their example. It was possible that further communications might be established hereafter between England and North America; in that event the usual course of inviting tenders would be followed; but he hoped he had satisfied the House that the Government were justified in treating the Galway line as an exceptional case.
  COLONEL FRENCHsaid, it appeared to him that this Motion was made in the old monopolizing spirit, to crush the rising interests of Ireland, as in former times Acts of Parliament were passed to prohibit the making of cloth and establishing other restrictions in respect to Ireland, though he admitted that of late years that system had been changed, This company was formed to establish a direct communication between Ireland and America, and made to the Government an offer which the hon. Secretary to the Treasury had shown to be of public advantage, and he knew not with what object the present Motion was made by the hon. Member, unless it was brought forward in obedience to the desires of his constituents.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, he conceived that the arrangement made by the Government was a hasty one, and he believed that it would be found a most improvident one; but he trusted that the company had been bound to provide such vessels as would insure the greatest celerity and public convenience in the transit. If the Government had simply announced that it was desired to establish a communication between some portion of Ireland and America, the self-interest of the mercantile community would have led them to make an arrangement infinitely cheaper and more beneficial to the country than that adopted by the Government.
  MR. VANCEobserved, that the conduct of the Government in this matter was
  1402
  highly to be commended. There was a general demand in Ireland for this subsidy, which had been well earned by the ability and enterprise which had led to the establishment of the line in question. The communication with Newfoundland was now very different from formerly. The Cunard vessels went past Newfoundland to Halifax, and the letters had to be brought back to Newfoundland. By the Cunard steamers the communication with Canada was fortnightly, whereas this new line would supply a weekly communication with that place, and no act of the present Government had given more satisfaction to the mercantile interests, not only in Ireland, but in England, than the subsidy to the Galway line.
  MR. COWPERsaid, that as an English Member he felt called upon to enter his protest against the most reprehensible and improper course taken by the Government in this matter. He understood the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury to lay down the doctrine that the Government were quite right in making this large contract for £78,000 without public advertisement or competition among persons willing to tender, and without giving the House of Commons an opportunity of expressing an opinion with respect to it. If he recollected correctly the circumstances attending the establishment of the Cunard line of steamers, tenders were applied for in the first instance, and the offers were all considered to be too high. Subsequently Mr. Cunard made a lower offer, and it was not thought necessary to have another competition. The Peninsular and Oriental Company had obtained its contract by fair tender, and he thought that in this instance also an opportunity ought to have been allowed for all parties to tender for the service, and the public had a right to complain of the course taken by the Government, because there ought to have been some proper test of the value of the service to be performed, and such a test would have been best afforded by competition. He thought the Government were also reprehensible for persevering in their intention to sign the contract without giving the House of Commons an opportunity of ascertaining the facts of the case, and considering whether, on the whole, the arrangement proposed was the best that could be made, not only in the matter of economy, but with reference to the interests of Ireland. He thought the House ought to require some explanation why a

  1403
  very large expenditure was at all necessary for the conveyance of letters between Ireland and Newfoundland. The House had been in the habit of voting a sum of about £7,000 a year for the conveyance of letters by mail-packet between Halifax and Newfoundland, and if £78,000 was applied merely to the conveyance of letters to the United States through Newfoundland, he thought it would he difficult to justify such an expenditure, because £176,000 a year was already devoted to the maintenance of a weekly service between England and New York, and England and Boston and Halifax alternately. He did not mean to deny that it might be advisable to make arrangements for despatching a mail to North America from some Irish port alternately with Liverpool; but he thought it an extravagant proposition that, in addition to the weekly service from England, another and a totally distinct service should be established from Ireland. Letters could be collected from the greater part of Ireland and despatched to North America from Liverpool as conveniently as from Galway. It was impossible, however, to suppose that this expenditure was intended merely for the conveyance of letters. Its object was, no doubt, to benefit Ireland by promoting emigration. The Secretary to the Treasury had admitted that it was intended to facilitate emigration by establishing a frequent communication between Ireland and Newfoundland. It was right that any fair sum of money should be devoted to such a purpose; but if this were the object, why should the Government take credit upon their own responsibility for advancing the public money to promote this intercourse? The proper course would, in his opinion, have been for the Secretary to the Treasury to have submitted to the House a vote for the necessary sum, stating the purpose for which it was required; but why did the Government take credit for a measure which was said to be popular in Ireland, without allowing the House of Commons to express their opinion on the subject? He thought the Government had pursued a most improper, unusual, and unprecedented course in having secretly, upon their own authority, without laying any papers upon the table or proposing a vote, granted a sum of money to a particular company without permitting any competition. He thought this conduct was the more strange as Parliament was near its close. He hoped there was yet time for the Government to recon-
  1404
  sider the course they were about to take, and that they would think it more consistent with their duty not to sign any contract at present, but to leave the subject to be brought before the future Parliament in a regular manner by an Estimate, accompanied by an explanation of the purposes to which the amount was to be applied. He would be most happy, if the Government could make out a fair case, to concur in granting any sum that might be necessary; but he thought the House ought to know what was the exact character of the contract, how long it was to last, and the specific object with which it was entered into, and the Government would then be relieved from many suspicions and rumours that had been spread abroad on this subject, which he thought could only be fairly met by their establishing a clear case for the grant. He must, under the circumstances, enter his protest against the course which the Government proposed to pursue in relation to this matter.
  MR. P. O'BRIENsaid, he was astonished to hear the hon. Member for Mallow (Sir Denham Norreys) protest against this grant, which was regarded in Ireland—except, perhaps, by persons who were interested in particular ports—as a great boon, very gracefully conceded by the Government. He believed Irish Members were almost unanimously of opinion that the establishment of the proposed communication would be attended with immense advantage to Ireland. The Secretary to the Treasury had, he thought, properly treated this as an exceptional case, similar to that of the Atlantic Telegraph. If Cork, or Limerick, or any other Irish port, had entered the field in competition with Galway, he could have understood the objections which were made to the course adopted by the Government, but no such movement had taken place. The sum required after all was inconsiderable, and with regard to postal requirements some four years back it was stated by the hon. Member for South Lancashire (Mr. W. Brown), one of the leading merchants engaged in the American trade, that two-thirds of the letters which were received by his house in Liverpool from America were from emigrants who had gone out from Ireland, and who sent remittances to their friends in that country. He thought, therefore, it was fair to infer that increased facilities for postal communication between North America and Ireland were required.
  MR. SPAIGHTobserved, that the Go-

  1405
  vernment had entitled themselves to the gratitude of the Irish people by acknowledging that from its geographical position Ireland was the high road between this country and her colonies in the West; but he entertained some doubt whether the course pursued by the Government was the best calculated to attain the object they had in view. If they deemed it right that a subsidy should be given to establish postal communication between Ireland and America, he thought they should have studied the interests of the public by adopting the route which ensures the greatest convenience, safety, and economy. The subject of this communication had been under the consideration of Parliament since 1831; four Commissions had inquired into the matter, and an opinion had been expressed that Galway was not the most convenient port on the western coast of Ireland as a station for Transatlantic communication. He deplored that the Government had gone so far in this particular instance. They would have better consulted the public interest if they had reserved their decision until the whole matter had been made the subject of a public inquiry. Whatever might be the merits of the Galway line, he greatly doubted whether it had been proved that it had any claims upon that House and the country. Certainly the passage to Newfoundland had been successful. It was well known that owing to the fogs and the ice it was impossible for six months in the year to carry on a communication of this kind with Newfoundland. He entreated the Government, therefore, to stay any proceeding until the question had been fully brought before the House after the meeting of the new Parliament. The interests of the Shannon were entitled to equal consideration, and all he asked for was a fair and open investigation. The highest naval authorities had declared that Galway in its present state was totally unfitted for an efficient packet station.
  MR. RICHARDSONsaid, it was natural that the hon. Member for Liverpool should dislike competition, but that Irish Members should do the same excited his astonishment and certainly was not very patriotic. For his own part he thought that Irish Members lay under a great debt of gratitude to the Government for the way in which they had treated Ireland, and he for one thanked them for what they had done in this instance. It was stated that Galway was a dangerous port to enter, but
  1406
  so was Liverpool itself; and, moreover, the former place could easily be made a first-rate port and Transatlantic station at an exceedingly moderate expense. Enormous sums had been laid out upon English harbours. At Holyhead, for example, the cost of the works was about a million sterling; whereas to render Galway a port which the Great Eastern might enter at low water, the entire expenditure required would be only £150,000. Even upon the right hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Cowper's) own showing, the present Government must have entered into a very good bargain with the Galway line, because they had agreed upon a less sum by £300 per voyage than was paid to the Cunard line. The opposition offered in this case reminded one of the ancient state of Ireland, when Limerick fought against Galway and Galway against Limerick. If the Limerick gentlemen had shown their patriotism by starting a line from their own port for the accommodation of the country, not one word could have been said against them; but, having done nothing of the kind, it certainly seemed rather like sour grapes for them now to unite with the Liverpool men against their own fellow countrymen in Galway. The interests of the north of Ireland, as well as of England and Scotland, ought to be considered in connection with this question, because the direct line of postal service between Ireland and America and our own colonies in the west would he by way of Belfast and the railroad now in course of formation to Galway. Dependent as it was upon Liverpool for its postal communication, the trade of Ireland was in a position in which no public-spirited Irish Member should wish to see it placed.
  MR. ROEBUCKsaid, he hoped the House would excuse him if he addressed it for a few moments on this matter, in which he certainly had a personal interest. That interest had arisen in this way. Regarding Ireland as one limb of this great empire, he bad always desired to bring her, if possible, up to the standard of England. He saw an attempt made on the part of certain enterprising men in London to open a direct communication between Ireland and America, and by thus affording mercantile advantages to Ireland to benefit that country without doing injury to anybody; and though an Englishman, yet, wishing well to the sister Island, he had taken part in this adventure. Now, he was very much—he was about to say

  1407
  astonished, only he had ceased to be astonished at anything; but he admired this wondrous outburst of patriotism on the part of the front Opposition bench. The right hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Cowper) appeared very much shocked at the idea of this contract being entered into by his political opponents with the Galway Company without the papers being laid before the House of Commons. But had that never been done before? Had it never been done by the immaculate body whose hard fate it now was to occupy the Opposition benches? What was lately done with Mr. Cunard? And when the right hon. Gentleman told them that no appeal had been made on that occasion to that House he told them nothing to the purpose. The last contract with Mr. Cunard was made by the present Government upon stipulations which were entered into by the late Government which had been left them as a legacy by their predecessors. Of that the House of Commons knew absolutely nothing, though that House was bound by the contract made by the late Government and carried out through the medium of their successors. What, however, had the present Government done with regard to the Galway Company? It was found that letters could he transmitted from London to Now York through Galway, in twenty-four hours less time than viâ Liverpool; and tenders were accordingly sent in to the Government offering to conduct the mercantile communication between England, Ireland, and America by that shorter route. The Government, looking at the proposal from an Imperial point of view, considered it in the light of a question of what they could do for Ireland, and, indeed, for the whole mercantile community of the United Kingdom, by means of a new postal line by way of Galway. Following previous examples, the Government investigated the matter and judged for itself. It had taken proper precautions to secure good ships, and to have the service done in the specified time, and that time shorter than before. There was no harm or injury inflicted on any port in England by this. The hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Horsfall) told them he was not an enemy to Galway. The chief opposition to the enterprise appeared to come from Ireland. He often looked under the gallery and was always struck with faces from Limerick, and the world out of doors was always hearing something about something being done against the Galway Com-
  1408
  pany by persons connected with Limerick. If so, were they to treat it all as downright patriotism and were there not personal considerations, were there not local considerations? The House of Commons, however, which was superior to all local and personal considerations, would, he hoped, judge as he had done himself. He found that various persons perfectly conversant with mercantile and marine affairs had selected Galway from among the different ports on the Irish coast. There was no competition either from Limerick or Valentia; the company was established at Galway; and the opposition was very like the old Irish quarrels; the dissensions among the Irish themselves utterly destroyed their own interests. No sooner was a good thing proposed to be done for Ireland than the most fierce opposition to it came from Ireland itself. Several Englishmen had selected Galway as the fittest port for the enterprise; they came to the Government, offered to do certain things, and bound themselves to do them; and when the House was told that Mr. Cunard had astonished the Government by the lowness of his tender he could assure it that the tender of the Galway Company was lower than that of Mr. Cunard. They should look at this enterprise as an Imperial matter—not as a mere postal arrangement. He thought the Government ought not to be actuated by any mere paltry considerations, but looking at Ireland and the advance of that country, he considered the establishment of the Galway Company a great step in her mercantile improvement. That improvement depended on English capital flowing into it, and yet when Englishmen did what every good Irishman admitted ought to be done, by whom were they most opposed? By Irishmen. It told badly for them; they should merge their small, petty, and local feelings in the great consideration of the Imperial interests of Ireland; they should forget Limerick and Galway, and think of it only as an Imperial question.
  MR. F. W. RUSSELLsaid, that while admitting the importance of a postal communication with America from one of the ports on the western coast of Ireland, which must ultimately tend to the conveyance of the American mails generally through Ireland, he must yet condemn the Government for the manner in which the arrangement with the Galway Company had been entered into. They ought to have, arranged their own plan, determined upon

  1409
  the duty to be performed, and then advertised for tenders. If they had done this they would at least have had the opportunity of testing the comparative merits of the other Irish ports, and there would have been no cause of complaint. The capabilities of other ports would have been known, and if the localities which were equally or more favourably situated could not have provided the capital and the ships, the tender of the Galway Company would have been accepted as a matter of course. It was a mistake to suppose that the line of steamers for this service had been provided by Galway, the vessels having been sent round to that port by certain gentlemen in London, and had the competition been open, there was but little doubt that other gentlemen or other companies would have sent ships to some of the other ports. In fixing thus arbitrarily upon Galway an unnecessarily large expenditure would be incurred from the peculiar character of the coast, which would compel the carrying out of gigantic works, equivalent, as he believed, to those at Cherbourg—without which the service would fail. He hoped the Government would suspend all further operations upon the subject until the new Parliament assembled and expressed their opinions on it.
  SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, he thought the House had better suspend its judgment until the papers were before them, and then, if they were not found satisfactory, it would be a question for reference to a Select Committee. He was surprised at the imputation cast by the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) against the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cowper), who, he thought, had laid down a good and constitutional doctrine, and as a general principle he thought it was preferable to put up all these lines to competition and tender. The hon. and learned Member told the House that he was influenced by motives of the purest patriotism in entering into this company. He did not dispute the hon. and learned Gentleman's assertion, at the same time he must say that that was the last consideration he should have thought would have induced any person to enter into such a speculation. It might have been all very well when lines of very small importance and expense were involved to leave the Government to deal with them as they thought fit, but looking at the magnitude of these postal contracts in the present day, it behoved the House to con-
  1410
  sider how they permitted the power to be taken out of their own hands. It might be said that the House had the control, inasmuch as it must vote the money. But how stood the case? A contract was made by the Government without the knowledge of the House, and as generally happened, the contracting parties had to build a certain number of ships for the service. If the House refused to sanction the contract, and withheld the supplies, the contractors would have an equitable claim for compensation for that outlay. The Admiralty could not build a shed without the sanction of the House of Commons; whereas the Government might, in the post-office department, enter into contracts for hundreds of thousands of pounds extending over ten or twenty years, the assent of Parliament being a mere nominal and useless ceremony. It was a serious matter for their consideration, therefore whether the Government should not be compelled to lay on the table the particulars and conditions of every contract a certain time before it was entered into, or, at all events, that in some way the House should have an opportunity of expressing its opinion on such matters before they were concluded.
  MR. SULLIVANsaid, he regretted very much that the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck) should have had a fling at the Irish Members; for had he taken the trouble to sift the chaff from the corn he would have found that out of the whole body of Irish Members five would perhaps support Limerick while the other 100 would vote to a man in favour of Galway. He (Mr. Sullivan) had the authority of an eminent Member of this House (Mr. Stephenson) for saying that, in that hon. Gentleman's opinion, there was no other port in Ireland which could at all equal in its capabilities for the Transatlantic service the port of Galway.
  MR. MONSELLsaid, he must beg leave to question the statement just made as to the comparative unanimity of Irish Members on this question. On the other hand he thought that if the Irish Members were polled it would be found that a considerable number, who were interested in neither of the two ports mentioned, thought that the subject should be fairly and impartially sifted before any selection was made. He (Mr. Monsell) desired that the House of Commons should have this question fairly brought before it, and that a Committee should be appointed to take evidence, and then that a decision should be come to

  1411
  whether the course pursued by the Government was the best, and whether Galway or any other port would be the best adapted for the end in view. The hon. Member for Kilkenny had appealed to the opinion of the hon. Member for Whitby (Mr. Stephenson), but he had omitted to state whether the hon. Member for Whitby had ever been at Galway. He (Mr. Monsell) could appeal to the opinion of more than one Commission composed of experienced naval men, who all preferred another port to that of Galway. If the plan suggested by the hon. Member for Mallow (Sir Denham Norreys) had been adopted the advantage of open tenders for the terms on which transatlantic communication between Ireland and America could be carried on would have been gained, and the best port would have been chosen by the persons who undertook the contract. There was no difference of opinion in that House as to the advantage of Transatlantic communication between Ireland and America; but the question which was now under discussion was how best that object could be arrived at. He put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it would not be better to have established the system by the means he had suggested, and he wished to know why it was necessary to deviate from the usual rule in such cases. If that course had been pursued the decision would have been above all suspicion, and every one would have been satisfied. He would put it, therefore, to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to allow this matter to come before a tribunal taken from the House of Commons, where no local interests could decide the question, and not to enter rashly on a contract which would give satisfaction to few and dissatisfaction to many.
  MR. BEAMISHsaid, he did not blame the Galway Company for what they had done, but he thought it would have been the more regular course, where so large a sum of money was involved, if the contract had been opened to fair tenders for the best means of communication between Ireland and America. He might have his predilections for the port with which he was connected, and thought it was the best for the purpose; but he desired to look on this question not locally but Imperially, and he only wished the matter to be settled openly and fairly. The gentlemen connected with Galway had done much to secure a communication between Ireland
  1412
  and America, and their claims were entitled to consideration, but still it was right that the contract should be put up to public tender. The question was still open for inquiry, and the whole matter ought to be submitted to the House of Commons.
  MR. JACKSONsaid, he was of opinion that no subsidies at all were requisite, either for the postal or commercial service between England and America. If the communication between the two countries were left to private enterprise, ample accommodation would be afforded without the necessity for resorting to Imperial taxation. The Great Eastern, with which he was connected, would, when ready for sea, be prepared to carry on the postal communication across the Atlantic swifter than any other ship without asking the Government for a shilling. With regard to Galway, he did not ask himself whether that was the best or worst port for the purposes required; but he contended that if it were really the best it would soon have been selected as the point of intercommunication, and he thought the Government ought to have paused before supporting any individual enterprise.
  Motion agreed to.
  Copy ordered, "of all Correspondence on the subject of the intended Mail Service between Galway and America."

NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).

  ORDER DISCHARGED.
  MR. SULLIVANsaid, he rose to move that the Order of the 30th March for a return relative to National Education in Ireland be discharged. The reason for his Motion was, that the return reflected unfairly on the character of private individuals. It had been obtained in the following way. An action had been tried at the last Kilkenny assizes between a Mr. Kenealy and the editor of the Belfast Mercury, in which a verdict was obtained for the plaintiff. The hon. Member for Newry (Mr. Kirk], then moved for a return to be made by the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland relating to certain matters which had occurred to Mr. Kenealy in 1848, in connection with his dismissal from the mastership of a national school, which were entirely of a private character. He hoped that the return would be discharged.
  LORD NAASsaid, that previous to the order being made the hon. Member for Newry (Mr. Kirk) had shown him the return for which he wished to move, and he

  1413
  had referred it to the Commissioners for National Education, who said there was no objection to it, and had consented to its production. The hon. Member for Newry (Lord Naas) was then absent, as he, in fact, was when the order was made, the Motion for the return having been made for him by the hon. Member for Cork. It was the practice of the House not to permit the production of papers which might damage the character of individuals, and as the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sullivan) had assured the House that the papers ought not to be produced and the hon. Member for Newry was not present to justify the Order, the best course would probably be to discharge it, leaving it to that hon. Member to renew his Motion at a future time if he should think fit.
  MR. BEAMISHsaid, that although he had in the absence of the hon. Member for Newry moved for the papers, he knew nothing whatever of the circumstances of the case; but he would beg to suggest that instead of discharging the Order at once, the Motion of the hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. Sullivan) should be postponed for a week, in order to give the hon. Member for Newry an opportunity of explaining the object he had in asking for the papers.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, he objected to making Motions one day and discharging them the next. He thought the matter should be postponed for a month, which would get rid of it for the present Session.
  MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURTsaid, it was not unusual to discharge such Orders. The Return had been moved for in the ordinary way, after it had been ascertained that there was no objection to it; but as the hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. Sullivan) had stated, that it affected the character of a gentleman from whom he had received the information, in the absence of the hon. Member who moved for the Return, the fairest way was to discharge the Order, and leave it to the hon. Member for Newry, if he thought proper to renew his Motion.
  Motion agreed to.
  Order discharged.

DAMAGED TEA.—OBSERVATIONS.
MR. AYRTONsaid, he wished to call the attention of the hon. Baronet the Under Secretary of the Treasury to the fact that considerable dissatisfaction had been occa-
1414
sioned in connection with the circumstance that tea which had been imported into this country had been so damaged as to be use-less, and he trusted some steps would be taken to prevent the recurrence of the sale of an article which must be regarded in no other light than that of rubbish.
SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, that the hon. Gentleman had called attention to a subject which had caused some interest in the City, and which related to some damaged tea which had been imported in a vessel called the Jubilee, which was wrecked. The question arose, what duty was to be charged on the tea. The packages being saturated with water, were much heavier than they would otherwise have been. The Commissioners of Customs had no authority to change the rate of duty, but it was not for them to charge duty on a pound of tea which was made heavier by a pound of water. The Commissioners allowed articles in this condition to be dried, so that the duty might be charged on the articles themselves and not on the water with which they were saturated. Some of the tea in question had been allowed to be dried in bond and the duty charged, and the other cases were charged on the weight which would naturally belong to chests of tea of that size. In cases in which the public health was not concerned, that was a fair way of proceeding, for it was hard that the owner should not only suffer from the damage to his goods, but should have to pay additional duty. The other question was whether this tea was in so bad a state that it ought not to have been sold, and whether it would be prejudicial to the public health. With regard to that, however, the Commissioners of Customs had no power to destroy damaged goods, on the ground that they were unfit for consumption. The Crown, however, possessed the right, by Order in Council, to prohibit the importation of such articles; and if the Customs authorities thought they would be prejudicial to the public health, they might have taken steps by moans of which the Crown would have had power to destroy them. The tea in this case had been examined, he believed, by Dr. Fitzwilliam, who stated that it was very bad stuff, but not deleterious to health. It was consequently allowed to go into the market. Since this occurrence, he (Sir Stafford Northcote) had called on the Commissioners of Customs to draw up a report on the whole question, so that some rule might be laid down with regard to articles unfit for consumption.

MANOR COURTS (IRELAND) BILL.

  QUESTION.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, he would beg to ask the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland what was to be done with the Manor Courts, Ireland Bill, which was coming back to that House from the Lords with Amendments. He also wished to know whether provision had been made for appointing returning officers in those places where the officers of those courts which had been abolished, had acted as returning officers.
  LORD NAASsaid, that some slight Amendments had been made in the Bill, and it was intended that it should become law this Session. Provision had been made in those cases where the seneschals had been returning officers, to transfer their duties to the sheriffs of the districts.
  House adjourned at half-past nine o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a East India Loan; Savings Bank (Ireland) Act.
2a Recreation Grounds.
3a Manslaughter.

THE DIVORCE COURT.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he wished to direct the attention of the Government, and more especially that of his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, to certain points connected with the working of the new Divorce Court. Great inconvenience had been caused by the overcrowded state of this tribunal, and by the inadequate judicial strength now provided for the despatch of its business. The judicial power of that Court ought, he thought, to be considerably increased. Certain provisions in the Act under which that Court was constituted were, moreover, likely to operate very prejudicially to the country, and to give rise to serious abuses. It was enacted by that measure that a woman might sue for divorce on the ground of the adultery of her husband conjoined with cruelty. He opposed that provision at the time, because he believed it would be attended with great social danger; he now found that it was the practice in every case where a woman

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  sued for a separation on the ground of adultery that she invariably added cruelty, and sought for the dissolution of the marriage. That, he thought, was a most disastrous consequence, and called for the earnest consideration of their Lordships. Another point requiring careful attention was whether the Court should not have power to sit foribus clausis, so that the details of cases of a certain character should not be made public. Any legislation which might take place on this important subject ought to originate with the Government, and he therefore hoped that Her Majesty's Government would take into their consideration the expediency of introducing a measure for the amendment of the existing law.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he quite agreed with everything that had fallen from his noble and learned Friend. With regard to the judicial strength of the Court, he thought it was an unfortunate circumstance that when the arrangement was made for the establishment of the full Court, so limited a choice of Judges should have been given. The only Judges who could form a full Court with the Judge Ordinary were the three chiefs and the three senior puisne Judges of the Superior Courts. The learned Judge Ordinary stated that it was impossible for him to get through the business which was brought before him unless he has a full Court four times a year; and the Judges named in the Act could not possibly, with a due regard to the discharge of their own special functions, give him that amount of assistance. There should, therefore, be an extension, so to speak, of the area from which a selection of assistant Judges could be made, or else new Judges should be created for that Court. He was perfectly ready to admit that the question of the judicial strength of the Court, as well as certain details of the Act—such as that which enabled a wife to obtain a separation not only for cruelty but for desertion—required serious consideration; and he hoped he should, on a future occasion, be able to bring forward a measure which would effect in the existing system certain improvements that would enable it to work efficiently and satisfactorily.
  LORD CAMPBELLwas glad to hear the statement just made by the noble and learned Lord.
  LORD CRANWORTHsaid, he believed that the suggestions of his noble and learned Friend near him (Lord Campbell)
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  were well deserving of attention, and he was glad to find that the subject was to be taken up by his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack.

EAST INDIA LOAN BILL.

  FIRST READING.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREmoved, that the Bill be now read a, First Time.
  EARL GREYhoped that, on the second reading of the Bill, Her Majesty's Government would be able to state what measures had been adopted, and were in operation, for reducing the military expenditure in India. On that point he thought some explanation was required.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHtrusted there would be no delay in passing the Bill; it was most desirable that the Bill should go out, enacted, by the mail on Monday, with the terms on which the late loan had been contracted.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he would take the second reading of the Indian Loan Bill on Thursday next; it was the anxious desire of Her Majesty's Government that not a moment should be lost in passing the Bill. He should therefore on Thursday move that the Standing Orders be suspended, that the Act might receive the Royal Assent before Monday next.
  Bill read 1a To be read 2a on Thursday next; and Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38, to be considered, in order to their being dispensed with.

RECREATION GROUNDS BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYmoved the second reading of the Bill.
  LORD WYNFORDobjected to one of the clauses in the Bill which would have the effect, he feared, of giving to tenants for life facilities for alienating property, to the injury of the rights of reversioners and remainder-men.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that it was not intended to act upon this clause, except upon a special petition being presented.
  After a few remarks from Lord REDESDALE and Viscount DUNGANNON.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the only object of the clause was to permit dispositions of property for the special purposes of this Act, without its being necessary to comply with the provisions of the Statute of Mortmain.
  After some further remarks from Lord WYNFORD,
  Bill read 2a (according to order), and Committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.
  House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock, till Thursday next, half-past Ten o'clock.