Sitting of 26 March 1858

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Government of India (No. 2); Loan Societies.
2° Customs Duties.

CHELSEA BRIDGE—QUESTION.
SIR JOHN SHELLEYsaid, he wished to ask the noble Lord the First Commissioner of Works, what day the Chelsea Bridge will be opened for public traffic, the noble Lord having on a former occasion intimated that till Monday next the bridge might be inspected by Members of that House. He also wished to ask the noble Lord the First Commissioner, whether Her Majesty's Government have come to any determination with reference to the toll which is to be charged?
LORD JOHN MANNERSreplied, that the bridge was to be opened for public traffic on Monday next, that day having been fixed by the West End and Crystal Palace Railway Company for the opening of their line, and, as the Government must comply with the provisions of the existing Act, until they were superseded by some fresh legislation, the bridge would be opened with tolls for foot passengers. With regard to the second question he had to state that, owing to the pressure of business, the Government had been unable to
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come to any final resolution upon the subject of foot tolls. It would be necessary to bring in a Bill on the subject after Easter, and in that measure the Government would endeavour to mitigate the tolls upon foot passengers, so as to give the greatest amount of relief consistent with a due regard to what they believed to be the claims of public faith.

WESTERN BANK OF SCOTLAND.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BRADYsaid, he wished to ask if it be the intention of Her Majesty's Government to institute any criminal proceedings against the Directors of the Western Bank of Scotland.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEThe only answer I have it in my power to give the hon. Member is, that there is not at present before me any evidence whatever to justify such a course; and I may add, that I am not in possession of any information that leads me to suppose that such materials exist.

  CHURCH LEASES—QUESTION.
  MR. HUTTsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary for the Home Department, whether it be the intention of the Government to introduce, during the present Session, any measure for the permanent settlement of Church Leases, in accordance with the promise given last year by the late Administration.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, that the Church Leases Bill introduced last year was referred to a Select Committee, and after examination by that tribunal, was passed with Amendments through that House, and was prevented being passed into law only by the lateness of the Session. Under those circumstances, he thought it advisable that the Bill should be brought this Session into the other House of Parliament, the House of Commons having already assented to its principle, with a view to its passing in the present year.

THE NEW ENGLAND COMPANY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. CHRISTYsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary for the Colonies, whether any return has been made to the Remembrancer of the Exchequer of the Income and Expenditure of the New England Company?
  LORD STANLEYI can only say that no such Return is to be found in the Colonial Department; and on inquiry I find that the Remembrancer of the Exchequer has no document of that sort whatever.

  REPORTING THE DEBATES—QUESTION.
  MR. LAURIEsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Commissioner of Works, whether some mode of arrangement of the seats in the House could not be adopted to ensure accurate reports of the speeches of hon. Members.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSSir, previously to the hon. Gentleman's notice of this question, I had heard nothing on this subject. I have had no communication from the reporters on the matter; but if the hon. Gentleman can submit to me any plan by which the object to which he refers can be better attained than at present, I shall take it into consideration.

  PASSING TOLLS—QUESTION.
  MR. MACKINNONsaid, he would beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, what is intended to be done on the question of Passing Tolls and Local Dues on Shipping?
  MR. HENLEYSir, the only answer I can give the hon. Gentleman is, that the Government have no intention, during the present Session, of introducing a Bill affecting the much-vexed question of Passing Tolls and Local Dues on Shipping.

  THE OFFICERS OF THE DOCKYARDS, &c—QUESTION.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he wished to inquire of the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is the intention of the Government to review the position of the Officers of the Dock-yards and Victualling Yards as regards their scale of superannuations, or to adopt any measures founded upon the Report of the Superannuation Commissioners, 1857?
  SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, he would beg, before the right hon. Gentleman answered the question just put, to ask another, namely—whether the Government have had under their consideration the recommendation that the scale of wages paid to persons employed in the Dockyards should be revised, and, if so, whether they have come to any determination on that subject?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERSir, the Report of the Commission, which was laid upon the table of the House last year, is at present under the consideration of the Treasury, and that consideration is not limited to the case of the officers only, but extends to all other classes employed in those establishments.

  REDISTRIBUTION OF CIRCUITS.
  MR. WARRENsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary for the Home Department whether the Government are taking any steps to carry into effect the recommendation of the Common Law (Judicial Business) Commissioners' Report, particularly with reference to the redistribution of the Circuits; and, if so, whether by the authority of the Crown or by Act of Parliament; and whether such arrangements will be complete against the ensuing Summer Circuits? He would also like to know whether any additional correspondence has taken place between the Home Office and the Lord Chief Justice on the subject?
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, that no additional correspondence had taken place between the Lord Chief Justice and the Home Office. With respect to the other question of the hon. and learned Member, the redistribution of the Circuits must depend entirely on the Bill before Parliament relating to Manchester, for until it could be arranged at what time the Assizes at Manchester should be held, it would not be advisable to make any redistribution of the Circuits in other parts of the Kingdom. He therefore thought there was no chance of any new arrangements being complete before the Summer Circuits.

  PATRIOTIC FUND.—QUESTION.
  MR. COGANsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Secretary for War to the fact that the Second Report of the Royal Commissioners of the Patriotic Fund was not signed by one of the Commissioners, Mr. Ball; and to ask whether Mr. Ball has assigned any reasons for withholding his signature, and, if so, whether there is any objection to laying his letter on the table of the House?
  GENERAL PEELsaid, that it had been his duty, as Secretary for War, to present to Her Majesty the Second Report of the Royal Commissioners of the Patriotic Fund; and he received Her Majesty's command to lay it on the table of that House. He was aware of the fact that Mr. Ball had not signed that Report, and had written a letter setting forth his reasons for not doing so. That letter was addressed to him (General Peel) on the supposition that he was one of the Commissioners; but Mr. Ball, finding that he was not one of the Commissioners; had asked that the letter might be returned, and had since addressed it to the Secretary of the Commission.

  COMPENSATION UNDER THE PROBATE ACTS.—QUESTION.
  SIR WILLIAM HEATHCOTEsaid, he would beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what means have been taken by the Government to bring under adjudication the claims of the several parties who maybe entitled to compensation under the Probate Acts of last Session?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the subject was one of considerable importance. The claims already sent into the Treasury were very considerable, the least estimate he could put them at, being a quarter of a million sterling. The House would therefore perceive that it was not a light matter for adjudication. It was quite impossible for the common staff of the Treasury in the fulfilment of its duty to meet such an exigency, and therefore he thought it right to issue a Treasury Commission to which those claims would be submitted, and he should ask a Member of the Government to pre-side over it—namely, the Judge Advocate; and he had invited and obtained the con-sent of two gentlemen, not Members of that House to be Commissioners, whoso names would be a security to Parliament for the able and efficient performance of their duties—namely, Sir Stafford North-cote, who had very considerable experience in matters of that kind of public business, and Mr. Follett, the Taxing Master of the Court of Chancery.

  DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE—QUESTION.
  MR. W. EWARTsaid, he would beg to inquire of the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any measures are being adopted by the Government for the establishment of a Department of Justice to superintend passing Bills, and to simplify the phraseology of the Law?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General had the other night intimated the intentions of the Government in that direction, and given some explanation of the course they intended to pursue with respect to the consolidation of the Law; but he was bound to say that they had not yet had an opportunity of duly considering the particular proposition referred to by the hon. Member.

ENLISTMENT OF KROOMEN, ETC.

  QUESTION.
  MR. G. VANS1TTARTsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary for War whether the
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  project for enlisting Kroomen or others on the coast of Africa has been definitely abandoned, or only deferred; and whether any steps have been taken to ascertain the practicability of enlisting Kafirs or other Natives in the Cape or elsewhere for service in India, or other places where the climate has proved destructive to the health of European troops?
  MR. BAILLIEsaid, he had to state that the project had been entertained by the Government of employing a certain number of Kroomen from the coast of Africa, who it was thought might be advantageously employed in the flotilla on the Ganges, in replacement of the Naval Brigade, who suffered very much from the heat and the nature of the climate; but it afterwards appeared that an alteration in the Mutiny Act would be necessary for the purpose; and as that Act had been passed through the House, the project, of course, fell to the ground. Various propositions had been submitted to the Government for the employment of Malays, Kafirs, Chinese, Hottentots, and other races in various parts of the world, but no decision had yet been come to on any of those suggestions.
  MR. LOWEsaid, he wished to know whether the Kroomen were to be employed in the service of Her Majesty or in that of the East India Company, whether the Government would have any objection to produce the instructions given to the officers who were to have been sent out to enlist Kroomen, and whether they would lay on the table the clause of the Mutiny Act which applied to this case?
  MR. BAILLIEsaid, he was unable to answer the question of the right hon. Gentleman at the moment, and hoped he would repeat it on a future occasion.

  REGIMENTAL BANDS.—QUESTION.
  GENERAL CODRINGTONsaid, he wished to know if there was any objection to lay on the table of the House a copy of the Document issued by the War Office in October, 1857, as to the refusal of the Commander in Chief respecting regimental bands?
  GENERAL PEELsaid, he had no objection to lay upon the table a copy of the War Office letter of the 12th of October, 1857, declining to sanction the recommendation of the General Commanding in Chief on the subject of regimental bands.

  SUPPLY.—COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read. House in Committee of Supply; Mr. FITZROY in the Chair.
  (1.) £477,000, on account, Civil Services.
  MR. WISEobserved, that one item in this Vote was a sum of £20,000 on account for extraordinary expenses at foreign Courts. He thought that was an alarming circumstance, as the sum now asked for was probably not more than one-third, or at all events a moiety, of the full amount that would be required. In 1851 the whole sum asked for under this head was £16,000; in 1853 it was £18,500; and in 1855 it had increased to £25,000. If the present Vote of £20,000 was only one-third or a moiety of the whole amount that would ultimately be demanded, he feared that, when the total Estimate was brought before the House, there would be some reason to complain of the extraordinary expense of our Ministers at foreign Courts.
  MR. G. A. HAMILTONwas understood to say that, during the past year, some of the expenses of the Foreign Office department had been very large; but this circumstance was attributable to the extra expenditure for telegraphic despatches and Foreign Office messages; and he could assure the hon. Gentleman that every endeavour would be made to reduce the expenditure as far as possible.
  Vote agreed to.
  (2.) £25,000, on account, Surveys and Topographical Department.
  In reply to a question from Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY,
  GENERAL PEELsaid, that unless this Vote was agreed to, it would be necessary to suspend the survey.
  SIR DE LACY EVANSwas understood to ask what force of militia the Government intended to embody tills year?
  GENERAL PEELunderstood the hon. and gallant Member to ask what was the strength of the embodied militia at the present moment?
  SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had misunderstood his question. He wished to know what number of militia was to be called out for training this year?
  GENERAL PEELhad already informed the House that it was not at present the intention of the Government to call out any regiments of militia for training.
  SIR DE LACY EVANSwas understood to ask, whether the militia regiments
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  at present embodied were to be continued on service?
  GENERAL PEELreplied, that the maintenance of the regiments at present embodied would depend in a great measure upon the recruiting for the regular army; but the militia would be gradually disembodied as the force of the army was increased.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSasked, whether, if the Vote was agreed to, the mode of proceeding with the survey sanctioned by that House last Session would be continued until the House determined otherwise?
  GENERAL PEELCertainly.
  Vote agreed to.
  House resumed; Resolutions to be reported on Monday, 12th April.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (NO. 2) BILL.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERSir, the vote of the 18th of February, by which a House of Commons recently elected declared by an overwhelming majority that, in their opinion, the government of India should be transferred from the East India Company to Her Majesty—however various and conflicting the opinions then expressed by those who joined in that vote as to the future form of government for India—appeared to those now responsible for the conduct of affairs to be conclusive in one point—namely, as to the termination of the authority of the East India Company. Sir, the very reason which induced many now sitting on this bench to oppose the Motion upon which that vote was taken—namely, that at this period of trouble and disaster in India it was unwise to diminish the influence of authority there—has persuaded us that, after that disparaging decision, it was impossible for the East India Company to grapple successfully with the still existing dangers, and, I fear, the long-enduring difficulties which must attend the settlement of India. It is in deference to this conviction, and for no other reason, that I, on the part of my colleagues, am now asking leave tonight to introduce a Bill for transferring the government of India from the East India Company to Her Majesty. But had we been influenced by other feelings—had we acted solely in deference to the opinion expressed by the House of Commons—I do not think we should have been justly liable to those imputations which have been somewhat lavishly bestowed upon our conduct. On the contrary, I believe there is

  819
  no want of precedents, and of the best precedents, in our Parliamentary history, when men who have been suddenly called to the responsibility of office have found it necessary to treat a public question of pressing interest and importance not strictly in accordance with the views which they had previously expressed respecting it, but rather from regard to the position in which they found it left by their predecessors. It is not necessary for me to prove the accuracy of that statement, because there is an instance fresh in the memory of this House and of the country which, I think, would have fully authorized our conduct, even had we acted only in deference to the vote of the House of Commons. Hon. Gentlemen recollect that only three years ago a distinguished Member of this House moved for a Committee of Inquiry into the state of the English army before Sebastopol. It will be remembered that the Government of that day—a very powerful Government—staked its existence upon its opposition to that Motion. The Motion was nevertheless carried by an overwhelming majority; a majority as great—I believe even greater—than that which decided on the fate of the India Bill. And what then happened? The noble Lord the Member for Tiverton was one of the most eminent members of the Government which resisted that Motion. By unexpected and unforeseen circumstances the noble Lord was shortly afterwards called to undertake the responsibility of forming a Government. He had disapproved the Motion, and when he formed his Government his opinions remained unchanged; but the noble Lord felt that on the whole it was necessary to accede to that vote of the House of Commons, and himself to appoint the Committee which he disapproved. No one, however, who sat opposite the noble Lord taunted him with his conduct on that occasion. Every one felt that he took a course which it was his duty as a sagacious statesman to adopt —a course which was inevitable under the circumstances then existing, and which was, in my opinion and that of others, highly beneficial to the public welfare. I say this in answer to imputations that we act inconsistently in attempting to deal with the question which I have to-night to bring before the House.
  Sir, I do assure the House it is with no pride or exultation that I fulfil the duty which now devolves upon me. I think— nay, I am sure—that the noble Lord (Vis-
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  count Palmerston) could not have been free from emotion when he rose in this House, and proposed to abolish that famous corporation which has so long commanded the respect and admiration of every Englishman. I could willingly have wished that it had not fallen to my lot to perform a duty to-night, which I believe to be clearly for the public advantage, but which I think no man not totally devoid of sensibility can perform without some emotion. This corporation has fallen, Sir, from no inefficiency on the part of its chief managers. It has certainly not fallen from any want of talent, spirit, and devotion in its admirable public servants. It has fallen before the inevitable consequences of time, of change, and of progress. The circumstances under which it was created and cherished have gradually changed and passed away; and though its fall at last has appeared to be sudden, those who have given attention to its position could hardly have doubted from the year 1853 that the time had almost arrived, and must arrive without any great delay, when Parliament would have to consider what should be the most fitting substitute for an institution which, in its day, has done great service to this country, and which will always be remembered with pride and with respect. The East India Company has fallen very much like that great Italian republic which I have always thought it rivalled and resembled. It has fallen in possession of a gallant army, a powerful fleet, and a considerable territory. It has fallen with all the semblance of authority, and it has met its end in the august fulfilment of its duties. But when Venice fell under similar circumstances, it was discovered that, whatever was its outward show, it rested on a foundation which had been sapped and was hollow for a long period of time. Like Venice, however, the East India Company has left a legacy of glory to mankind; and in treating to-night of a form of government which, in our opinion, ought to be substituted for that which has become extinct, I hope the House will allow me to express my own feelings, and to speak of the Company with that respect which I think every right-minded Englishman will always extend to its memory.
  Now, Sir, the solution of the great difficulty before us is how, so far as the Government of India is concerned which is transacted in Great Britain, we shall combine the promptness, the decision, the energy which are the result of undivided

  821
  authority, with the knowledge, the experience, and the practice which only can be furnished by a body of men of distinguished talents, who have had considerable acquaintance with the vast and various forms of Indian life. How we are to make such a combination is the difficult solution which I shall have to-night to attempt to accomplish. To establish a British Minister with unrestricted authority, subject to the moral control of a body of men who by their special knowledge, their independence, their experience, distinction, and public merit, are nevertheless invested with an authority which can control even a despotic Minister, and which no mere Act of Parliament can confer upon them, is, I admit, no ordinary difficulty to encounter; and to devise the means by which this may be effected is a task which only with the indulgence of this House and the assistance of Parliament we can hope to accomplish. That leads me at once to describe to the House the form of government in England which we think ought to be substituted for that East Indian Direction which, if the Bill I now propose to introduce passes, will have ceased to exercise any authority. In the Bill which I am asking leave to introduce to-night that form of government will take the following shape:—We propose, in the first instance, that there shall be a high officer of State— a Minister of the Crown—who shall occupy the rank and fulfil the duties of a Secretary of State. I know, remembering the discussion of last night, that one ought perhaps to pause for a moment, and to apologize to the House for proposing the creation of another Secretary of State. But I may be permitted to say for myself that I never indulged in this objection to the creation of another Secretary of State; and listening to the discussion then, and on previous occasions, I have never yet heard any satisfactory reason given which should render the institution of an additional Secretary of State in any case objectionable. Indeed, I have been always taught that the model administration we should study and imitate was the old administration of France before the Revolution—a system of administration which was adopted by the Republic itself on account of its efficiency, and which has only ceased in France since the establishment of Imperial institutions; and in that old administration every Minister of the Crown was a Secretary of State, except the President of the Council and the Chancellor. But I do not wish to dwell upon this occasion
  822
  upon that which, after all, is rather a point of form than of principle. The new Secretary of State is to be, in accordance with our plan, President of the Council of India, and to have the power of appointing a Vice President. The point, however, upon which the House very naturally wishes to dwell is, what is to be the constitution of the new Council for India, over which this chief officer of State is to preside. I shall, therefore, if the House will permit, address myself at once and without circumlocution to that particular subject. We propose that the Council for India should consist of eighteen persons. We further propose that half of that Council should be nominated by the warrant of the Crown under the Royal sign manual, and that the other moiety — the remaining nine Members— should be elected.
  I shall, in the first place, treat of those Members of the Council who, in our opinion, should be appointed by the Sovereign. Although our plan is that those nine Members should be thus appointed, we are still of opinion that each of those Members should have specified qualifications—that they should, in fact, each of them, represent some great interest in India. They will in fact be, though nominated by the Crown, to use a popular expression of the day, "representative men." These nine Members will be appointed in this manner. Each of the civil services of the three Presidencies will furnish a representative. One of those nine persons will be a member of the civil service who has served ten years at least in the Upper Provinces of India, or in those districts immediately under the authority of the Governor General. A second will be a Member of the civil service of the Lower Province of Bengal, who has likewise been in that service for ten years. There will also be a Member of the Council for the civil service of the Madras Presidency, and one for that of Bombay. A fifth Member of this division of the Council will be required to have specified but rather peculiar qualifications. We deem it to be of great importance that, in this Council of India, there should be some one person who possesses personal experience of the Native Courts, and well acquainted with the character and feelings of the Native Princes. It appears to us that one fault of our administration in India hitherto has been that there has been too great a disregard of the feelings of the Native Princes, and too limited an acquaintance

  823
  with the circumstances of their territory, and the character of its population. We have deemed it, therefore, of importance that, in this Council, there should be some man who should represent that eminent class of public servants with which, from our experience in Parliament, many of us are familiar. The area of selection is, of course, more limited in this case than that which is open to us in dealing with the civil services of the three Presidencies and the Upper Provinces, because we require ten years' civil service under the Government of India, five of which should have been passed as Resident or Political Agent at the Court of some Native Prince. The men whom we desire to bring by this means into the Council are such men as I recollect as distinguished Members of this House when I first entered Parliament — such men, for instance, as Sir Richard Jenkins, — men like Colonel Sutherland and General Lowe himself in his younger and happier hour. I have now detailed to the House the qualifications which we require, that five out of the nine Members who were to be nominated by the Crown should possess. The four remaining Members are to represent, first of all, the military services of the Queen in India, and the armies of Madras, Bombay, and Bengal respectively. We require that there should be a Member of the Council to represent the Queen's army, who should have served in India five years, and that there should also be representatives of the armies of the three Presidencies I have just mentioned, each of whom should have been employed in India in those services for a period of at least ten years. Our object, so far as those nine Members nominated by the Crown are concerned, is that the Secretary of State for India in Council should, with their aid, be in a position to command that special and particular knowledge with respect to the circumstances of that vast region which it is so desirable he should possess. If, for instance, a question connected with the affairs of the Upper Provinces should arise, he would have the advantage to be derived from the information of a man who has had a long experience of that particular district. If, again, a question relating to the south of India—the circumstances of which are so totally different from those of the North Western Provinces— should be brought under the notice of the Government, it would have in this Council a high authority to which to
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  refer. If our diplomatic relations with the Native Princes should become a subject of deliberation, then you would have the advantage of the assistance, in dealing with that subject, of a man who had been face to face with those Native Princes, and who can give you all the requisite information. In short, in the consideration of all those questions connected with our Indian administration which may arise, you would have a fund of the most authentic and various knowledge which a Minister could command or desire. But, although you will find in this Bill that those nine Members are to be nominated by Her Majesty by Royal Warrant, and that as often as vacancies in their number occur, those vacancies are to he filled up—and filled up only by persons possessing the same special and specified qualifications as their predecessors—yet it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government, if the House should support them in bringing in the Bill, to introduce into the measure itself the names of the nominated Members, so that, in fact, their appointment will have in the first instance not only a Royal but a Parliamentary sanction. They will, therefore, enter upon the discharge of their duties supported not only by the favour of the Sovereign, but by the approbation of the representatives of the people. I hope, Sir, I need not state upon this occasion—indeed, it would be, I trust, under any circumstances unnecessary to do so — that in making the selection of the nominated Members of the proposed Council, the list of whose names I shall deem it my duty in the course of these observations to present to the consideration of the House, Her Majesty's Government have had no other view than, with the utmost pains and with a due sense of the great responsibility involved, to select for each particular post the best man whose services they could procure, without the slightest reference to his political opinions, or, indeed, to any of those considerations or influences which often perhaps exercise somewhat too great a control over public appointments. The names of the nominee Members of the Council will be submitted to the House upon our responsibility, and with the assurance that in the selection we have made we have taken every pains to secure to the country the services of men of the highest ability and of the most influential character. But their names will be laid before the House, and even though it

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  should be of opinion that we have not exercised a wise discretion in the selection we have made, it cannot at all events charge us with not having appealed to Parliament frankly upon the subject, or with not having endeavoured to invest those nine Members, though they may be called nominees, with all the authority which a popular election could supply.
  Sir, I shall now proceed to advert to the other portion of this proposed Council for India—namely, that it is to be chosen — and that by popular election. There is embodied in this Bill a qualification for four of the Members of that division of the Council, and it is of this character:— They may be men who have served Her Majesty or the Government of India in any one branch of service whatever for a period of ten years; they may have been in the army, the navy, the legal, or civil services in India. These four places in the Council are open to any man who has served in any capacity Her Majesty or the Government of India. They are open also to any man who has resided in India for fifteen years, and who may have been engaged in agriculture, as a manufacturer or planter, or in commerce. Such are the qualifications which we propose for those four Members; and we further propose that they should be chosen by a constituency constructed in this manner: — We propose that every person who has borne the commission of Her Majesty or the Government of India for ten years, and residing in this country; or any man who has been in the civil service of Her Majesty in India, or in the civil service of the Government of India for ten years; that every person who is a registered proprietor to the amount of £2,000 of capital stuck in Indian railways or in any other public work in that country; that all those who are proprietors of at least £1,000 in the public stock of the East India Company — but exercising in this case only one vote— should have the power of electing the four Members of the Council to whom I have adverted. The constituency thus formed will amount, as we estimate, to about 5,000 persons. I have now to explain to the House how we propose that the five other Members should be elected, and what qualification would be required of those who aspire to fill those offices. The qualification necessary for the last five Members will be this:—The person chosen must either have been engaged in commerce in India or in the exportation of manufactured articles
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  to that country for the space of at least five years, or they must have resided ill India for the space of at least ten years. Such being the qualification which we propose to require for the last five Members of the Council, we propose that the election of these five Members of the Council shall be confided to the principal seats of trade and industry in this country; that one Member shall be elected by the city of London, another by the city of Manchester, a third by the town of Liverpool, a fourth by the city of Glasgow, and a fifth by the town of Belfast. In this manner the chief seats of trade in the three kingdoms will be represented in the council—and also that great industrial interest in this country which is more interested than any other in the development of Indian resources; for be it remembered India sends us no manufactured articles, but ought to send us all the raw produce we require.
  Now, Sir, if I understand aright the feeling of the House upon this occasion, it is in favour of exposition rather than of controversy; and therefore I am limiting myself to narrating as clearly as possible what is the nature of the Bill we propose; of course, reserving to myself and my colleagues the right upon all proper occasions of enforcing the policy which we now venture to recommend. I beg the House, therefore, to believe that it is not from any other motive that I now confine myself as much as possible to a clear narrative of the scheme we propose. I shall now have to detail to the House the nature of the constituency which we think ought to elect these Members. Now, as to whether they should be chosen by chambers of commerce or corporations, or what other mode—no doubt, the commercial associations of our great towns are respectable from the character of their members and deserve the greatest consideration in dealing with a matter like that which we are now discussing. But chambers of commerce are not corporations, and it would be in the power of any body of men to call themselves a chamber of commerce without any intervention of law and without the sanction of time. Municipal corporations are also bodies which every one must respect; but they are very limited in the number of their members, and it is not, I think, doubtful that one consequence of conferring the right of electing the Council upon chambers of commerce or upon municipal corporations would he a considera-

  827
  ble crop of cadets in the Indian army connected with the members of those bodies. We have given to this point all the consideration which its importance deserves. All that can be said for or against has, I doubt not, been fully considered by Her Majesty's Government, and it is our opinion that the election of these Members of the Indian Council by the great seats of industry should be intrusted to the Parliamentary constituencies of those places. In arriving at that conclusion Her Majesty's Government believe that those constituencies will be animated in the discharge of their privilege by a sense of duty, and will feel proud of the confidence which the State will thus repose in them. I ought to state to the House that besides the nine Members who, according to the plan of this Bill, will be nominated by the Crown and whose names we propose to insert in the Bill, it is our idea also with regard to the first four elected Members who in future will be elected by what I may call a special Indian constituency, that in the first instance the names of those appointed to them should be inserted in the Act of Parliament. Our object in so doing is to secure for the new Council the greatest amount of experience and practical knowledge that can be commanded.
  Most of those names we propose to have inserted in the Bill have been decided upon, and with the permission of the House I will read them. These are, as far as they have been fixed upon, the names of the first nine Members to whom I have referred. We propose, in the first place, Sir Frederick Currie, now the Deputy Chairman of the East India Company, and who was long in the judicial service of the Indian Government. He has been also Foreign Secretary to two Governors General, Lord Ellenborough and Lord Hardinge, a Commissioner at Lahore, and a Member of the Supreme Council. The next name that I have to introduce to the notice of the House is that of Mr. Dorin, the senior Member of Council at Calcutta, and formerly Financial Secretary. The first name represents the Civil Service of the Upper Provinces, and the other the Civil Service of Bengal. We propose that the Civil Service of Madras shall be represented by Sir Henry Montgomery, who was formerly in the revenue and judicial service of that Presidency, afterwards Secretary to the Government, and lastly, a Member of Coun-
  828
  cil. The Bombay Civil Service, we propose, shall be represented by Mr. Pringle, who succeeded Sir Charles Napier as Governor of Scinde, and who had before held high office under the Bombay Government. As what I may call the diplomatic representative we propose Sir Claude Wade. He has held high political appointments, and his name is well known in connection with Affghanistan. He held a political appointment at Peshawur in the Affghan war, he forced the Khyber Pass, he was political agent in Central India and was Resident at Lahore. I have now mentioned the names of the four gentlemen whom we propose to represent what may be called the Civil Services of the four Presidencies of India, and also the name of the proposed representative of the diplomatic service. Her Majesty's army in India we propose shall be represented in the Council by Lieutenant General Sir John Pennefather, now commanding at Malta, and who was in the Crimea. The army of Bengal by Colonel Burlton, Commissary General in the Bengal army, who was also in the Crimea. We propose that Sir Richard Vivian, formerly Adjutant General at Madras, who since then has served in the Crimea, and is now a Director of the East India Company, should represent that branch of the service in the Council. The name of the gentleman to represent the Bombay army is not before me. Having thus gone over the names of the first nine Members of the proposed Council as far as they are decided upon, I will now mention the names we propose to place in the Bill, but whose successors will be elected, should the measure become law, by what I have termed the Indian constituency. The first of these names is that of the present Chairman of the Board of Directors of the East India Company, the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Mangles), and I trust from what I hear that that hon. Gentleman will be induced to undertake the office. Considering his high position, his eminent talents, of which we are all witnesses, and the fact of his having occupied the chair of the Board of Directors during exigencies so severe as we have lately seen, I cannot but believe that that is a selection which Parliament will sanction, and which the country will approve. The next name which we propose is that of Captain Shepherd, who is well known as one of the most valuable Directors ever elected under the old form of government.

  829
  The next name which I hare to submit to the House is that of a gentleman of great ability, with whom we are all well acquainted, as he had long a seat among us —Sir James Hogg. I have no political connection with Sir James Hogg, and he has always been opposed to the party with which I act, but the ready talents and great knowledge with which he has on every occasion advocated the interests of the East India Company, I should have thought would have secured for him the respect of all. At all events, he has been selected, after the gravest deliberation, with no other object than that of securing a most valuable member for the new Council. The next name which I have to propose is that of a gentleman formerly Foreign Secretary in Bengal and Member of Council, who is quite unrivalled, I believe, for his general knowledge of Indian subjects—Mr. Prinsep.
  It now becomes my duty to detail to the House the form of procedure and the general duties which we propose this Council should follow and fulfil. We propose that the Minister for India should have the power to divide the Council into committees; that he should arrange those committees, and exercise over them a general supervision. We propose that it should be in the power of the Secretary of State for India to call a meeting of Council whenever he thinks it requisite, but that it shall also be in the power of any six Members of the Council to call a meeting of the Council if they signify their wish and intention in writing to one of the Secretaries for India. We propose that when the Council differs in opinion, if it is presided over by the Secretary of State, his opinion shall, of course, be conclusive; but that in that case he should express his opinion in writing, and the reasons which have induced him to come to that opinion; and that privilege will also belong to every Member of the Council. If the Council be presided over by the Vice President, in the absence of the Secretary of State, the majority of votes will decide the question, the Vice President having a casting vote; but in that case the decision of the Council must receive the sanction of the Secretary of State for India.
  I do not know that it will be necessary for me on this occasion to enter into any details on this head of the subject; all that the House requires is to have the leading features laid before it. Having, therefore, entered fully into the composi-
  830
  tion of the Council, having shown that a Minister with such a Council would be surrounded by men who can on all subjects which have come before them for deliberation bring to his assistsnce the greatest amount of information and intelligence, having shown that we have taken precautions that the Council shall be independent, that it shall be animated by public spirit, and that it shall bring English opinion to act upon Indian experience, the House will now very naturally wish that I should touch upon the other point which, next to the construction of the Council, excited much interest in the recent debates, and respecting which the country is most anxious—I mean the distribution of patronage.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELLFor how long are the Members of Council to be elected?
  THE CHANCELLOR or THE EXCHEQUERIn the beginning the period of retirement will be at the end of the first two, four, and six years, but the permanent term of tenure will be six years.
  MR. J. B. SMITHWill they be re-eligible?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERThey will be re-eligible. They will not be competent to sit in Parliament, and the salary will be £1,000 per annum, paid out of the Indian revenue.
  Upon the subject of patronage I shall not have to trouble the House at any length, because the result of the arrangement which we propose will really, generally speaking, not at all alter the present system of distribution. Her Majesty will do directly that which she does now indirectly. She will appoint directly the Governor General, the fourth Member of Council, the Governors of Presidencies, the Judge Advocate General, and so on. The civil service will be elected in the first instance under those regulations which at present prevail, and which have been found to work so satisfactorily. The military patronage, the naval and military cadetships, will be distributed among the Council, as they have been hitherto among the Court of Directors. The only change will be a formal change which the transfer of all authority to the Queen renders necessary; but virtually the patronage which is now exercised by the Directors of the East India Company will be exercised in the same way by the Council of India.
  There only remain two points of great importance on which it is necessary that I should touch—one is the army, and the other is the finance of India.

  831
  With regard to the army, we propose to make no change at present, except that which necessarily results from the general scope of the Bill. There will be two armies in India; besides the Queen's forces from this country there will be Her Majesty's military and naval forces in India. But we have included in the Bill clauses which authorize and will facilitate any changes in regard to the military forces of India which circumstances may ultimately show to be necessary.
  The only other point upon which I have to trouble the House is that of finance. We have taken care in this Bill to introduce all those provisions which, so far as provisions in an Act of Parliament can effect the object, will fix upon the revenue of India alone the expenses of the Government of India. We have also, of course, included in the Bill a clause which will insure that the accounts of the Indian Government shall be laid annually before Parliament; and we have endeavoured to establish a sufficient and satisfactory audit of Indian accounts in this country. But, having done all this, I am bound to say that the relations between English and Indian finance remain to me a source of great apprehension and anxiety. I feel that the time has arrived when this House must give to the subject its most serious and attentive consideration. I admit and I accept all those principles and opinions which have been laid down and expressed in this House as to the clear distinction which exists between Indian and English revenue; but I cannot conceal from myself that the parallel instances of Canada and Australia which are so often adduced for our guidance do not apply with that completeness which I could desire to the state of India. There are circumstances in India, with a vast territory, and people of different races numbering 180,000,000, which in my opinion make a marked difference between the condition of that great peninsula and our native Colonies. I accept the formal defence of the finances of this country which many hon. Gentlemen have set up, and which technically, and truly to a certain extent, may be relied upon. But to my mind that defence is not all-sufficient, and a great responsibility will devolve upon the Ministers and upon the Parliament of England if they allow the state of Indian finance to remain in the obscurity in which it has too long been involved. Able as has ever been the administration of India, considerable
  832
  and distinguished as have been the men whom that administration has produced, and numerous as have been the great captains, the clever diplomatists, and the able administrators of large districts with whom the Indian Government has abounded, the state of the finances has always been involved in perplexity, and India, that has produced so many great men, seems never to have produced a Chancellor of the Exchequer. But, Sir, it is impossible for us to shut our eyes to what must be, or rather may be, the ultimate consequences to the finances of England of such changes as we are now proposing, and as were proposed by the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, in the Government of India. Therefore, if the House shall pass this Bill into a law, it will be our duty to recommend Her Majesty to authorize a Royal Commission to visit India to ascertain what is the real financial condition of that country; to examine into its finance in all its forms, into the mode of keeping the public accounts, into the collection, receipt, and application of the public revenue, and into the system of contracting debt; and to report generally upon the subject, so that we may at last clearly understand the condition of its finances and the relation in which we stand to them, and may not only prepare for the injurious consequences which, if we arc negligent, may accrue to our own financial condition, but may, by timely and vigorous interposition, avert them. We are of opinion that this is a matter of such paramount importance that we have inserted in this Bill a clause providing that immediately after the Act is passed a Royal Commission shall repair to India, to investigate and report upon the financial condition of that country; so that, if our policy is approved, it shall receive the sanction of Parliament as well as that of the Crown, and that the Commissioners may go out with such authority as may enable them to produce the beneficial result which we anticipate from an interference which, in our opinion, can no longer be delayed.
  I have now, Sir, given the House, I hope, a clear account of the principal features of the Bill which we are now asking leave to introduce. There are, of course, many details upon which I have not touched, and upon which it would be wearisome to dwell at this stage; but I have endeavoured to put the House in possession of the chief provisions which this Bill con-

  833
  tains. It contains a plan—the first which Las ever been submitted to Parliament— for establishing a Council for India, which shall be distinguished for its knowledge, for its special information, for its high character, and for its complete independence. We have endeavoured to form a plan which should not, in the changes which are inevitable, take the patronage away from the East India Company only to place it in the hands of the Crown. We have directed our minds to these two objects of pressing and immediate interest, but we have not forgotten an object not less important—an object without which no form of government can flourish, no patronage can long be valuable—we have not forgotten that it was our duty to provide for future financial security, and to lay the foundation in India of that which is the only basis of public welfare—a sound state of public wealth. I hope, therefore, that the House will allow Her Majesty's Ministers to introduce this Bill. I have asked leave to bring it in to-night —probably on the eve of our separation— because I wish that the House and the country should have a full opportunity of examining and studying its provisions. Believing that these provisions are calculated to promote the welfare of the empire — that they will lead to the renovation of India—that if they are adopted we shall establish in this country a Government for India, so far as that country can be governed hero, which will be distinguished for its aptitude, and adapted to every contingency which may occur—I with confidence place in the hands of the Speaker the Motion of which I have given notice, and ask the permission of the House to introduce this Bill for transferring the government of India from the East India Company to Her Majesty.
  Question put, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to transfer the Government of India from the East India Company to the Queen."
  MR. ELLIOTasked how the Members of the Councils of the Presidencies were to be appointed?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: We do not propose to interfere with any powers which are at present possessed by the Governor General, or are exercised in India, and therefore there will be no change in the mode of appointing these Members of Council.
  MR. PARRY NISBETshould like to be informed what the right hon. Gentleman
  834
  proposed to do with regard to Gentlemen who were at that moment Directors, and who, though they had greatly distinguished themselves, were not included in the list of names which had been read. Were they to have any compensation?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I merely rise to say that I entirely concur with those who think that the Government should have leave to introduce the Bill, the contents of which have been so clearly stated by the right hon. Gentleman. But, while I give my cordial assent to the Motion, I trust both the right hon. Gentleman and the House will understand that I reserve the expression of my opinion with regard to the Bill, until I have had time to consider the proposed arrangements in detail. For the present, I merely concur in the Motion that the Bill shall be brought in. I conclude that the right hon. Gentleman will bring it in this evening, so that it may be in the hands of Members during the recess. All I now wish is that it may be understood that by concurring in the Motion, I do not imply any opinion as to the various details of the Bill.
  MR. GILPINsaid, he was sure he expressed the opinion of many hon. Members around him as well as his own, when he said there could not be the least objection on their part to the introduction of the Bill, which had been so well and ably explained. The only point on which he wished to ask the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman and of the House at that moment was this, that while the Government had provided, and to a certain extent, ably provided, for the Government of India, while the Native Princes were to have, in one sense, a representative at the new Council Board, it was to be regretted that there was to be no representative of the people of India, whose happiness was deeply involved in this measure. He trusted that in all the stages of that Bill, it would be borne in mind on both sides of the House, that if they had any business in India, it was to govern for the benefit of India, rather than for the benefit of England.
  MR. MANGLESexpressed to the right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), his cordial acknowledgments on behalf of the great body with which he (Mr. Mangles) was connected, for the terms in which he had spoken of the past services to their country of the East India Company. That great corporation deserved well of their country, and he was confident that, bye and bye, when the heat of exist-

  835
  ing conflicts had passed away, the expressions of the right hon. Gentleman would be concurred in by the great bulk of the nation, and that they would admit, whenever the great corporation ceased to exist, that it would leave to the country a noble legacy. As the representative of the East India Company, and as one of those who were conscientiously persuaded that the Government of India by the East India Company had been a good and beneficent one on the whole, and an admirable one considering the great difficulties they had to cope with, he found it to be his duty to oppose any Bill intended to take from that body the power which they had so well exercised. But he felt equally bound to say—and he spoke the sentiments of every one of his colleagues—that if it should be the determination of Parliament to take that power from their hands, they should be prepared to give their most cordial assistance towards perfecting any plan that might be brought before the House for the future Government of India. When they knew that it was the determination of the Legislature to take upon themselves the Government of India, it would then be the bounden duty of the East India Company to the people of this country, as well as to the people of India, to do all that lay in their power to make the new Government as good and efficient as possible. As regarded all the provisions of this Bill, he should say for himself and the East India Company, as the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton said, that they should reserve to themselves the fullest power of debating and canvassing the provisions of the Bill, especially in Committee, which would be the stage in which, section by section, it would be their duty to render the Bill as productive of benefit as possible. In that state alone, and on that condition only, he could accept the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman.
  MR. WHITEmust say, that as this Bill had been shadowed forth by the right hon. Gentleman, he could not but observe that it bore a very favourable contrast to the Bill introduced by the late Government, the first reading of which was carried with such a largo majority. There were ingredients in it which he recognised with much satisfaction, which, he was sure, would be shared by the class to which he had the honour to belong. At the same time he was doubtful whether the Council for Indian Affairs, as proposed to be constituted, Would work as satisfactorily as the Chan-
  836
  cellor of the Exchequer appeared to anticipate. In the English constitution a combination of aristocratic and democratic elements was productive of good results, because of the existence of separate chambers; but it yet remained to be proved whether the same advantages would result from an amalgamation in one body of the two kinds of influence. He could not help testifying his hearty approval of the concluding remarks of the right hon. Gentleman, who there pointed out the great difference that existed between debts contracted by the colonies and debts incurred in India. That was a question which was "looming in the distance;" but he should have been much better satisfied if the right hon. Gentleman had said something with regard to the creditors of the East India Company. He could not believe that the Bill which the right hon. Gentleman now asked leave to introduce would be the same crude and undigested performance as that of the noble Lord. In the 3rd clause of the noble Lord's Bill there was a transference of the whole of the property of the East India Company to the Crown, and not one word was said with reference to the creditors of the Company. Now, it must not be forgotten that the property of the Company might be roundly estimated at £30,000,000, consisting of ships, dockyards, landed property, &c, most of which had been called into existence by the aid of money borrowed in this country; and yet by the noble Lord's Bill—he trusted that would not be the case with the Bill now sought to be introduced — this £30,000,000 was assumed by the Crown, and the Crown gave nothing in return for it; neither did the Crown assume the responsibility of the Indian debt, yet it pretended to the whole property of the Company. He agreed with the hon. Member (Mr. Gilpin) that some consideration should be given to the claims of the Natives of India. The time had not yet arrived for the introduction of representative institutions into India; but he thought that one or two members of the Supreme Council in Calcutta might be chosen by the Governor General from the Hindoo and Mahomedan classes.
  SIR ERSKINE PERRYsaid, there appeared to be two main points of difference between the present Bill and that of the late Government — namely, the enlargement of the Council from eight to eighteen, and the introduction of the elective principle as regarded one-half of the Members. Now, as during the recess, they would have

  837
  to consider the comparative merits of the two propositions, whether the Council should consist of eight or eighteen members, it was desirable the House should know what the functions of the Council were to be. Was the Council to take an active part in the conduct of Indian business, or was it to be merely a reviewing body, called together on certain days to express an opinion upon the proceedings of other parties? If it were intended that the members should be mere nonentities, with no real share in the government of India, probably eighteen would be a very good number; but if the Council was to be an active body, it ought to consist of fewer members. He wished to know, therefore, what functions it was expected to perform? He might also be permitted to inquire whether the members were to devote their whole time and attention to the business committed to them? Also, whether it was intended to appoint persons to the Council who were connected with trade? It appeared to him, that in the construction of the Bill too much attention had been paid to class interests. While he was addressing the House—though he had no intention to go into the details of the Bill—he would point out that the restrictions placed upon the appointments to the Council would have the effect of excluding some of the ablest men in India. For instance the wording of the provisions? would exclude the Punjab, which would have the effect of shutting out the services of Sir John Lawrence. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: The Punjab would be included, being one of the provinces directly under the Government of the Governor General.] He had misunderstood the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman on that head. The principle ought to be to represent the different interests in India connected with the revenue, the judicial, civil, and military departments. He felt bound to pay his tribute of admiration to the right hon. Gentleman for the speech he had just made, and particularly for the concluding observations. It seemed that grave attention was about to be paid to the finances of India. He had on former occasions called attention to the dilapidated state of those finances, and now that Government was to take up the matter he felt that nothing but good could result. One beneficial effect of the recent change of Government was, that now both the parties in that House were occupied in framing a better Government for India than that country had hitherto had.
  MR. BLACKsaid, that as the Members of Council for the great towns were to be elected by the Parliamentary electors, the consequence would be that in respect to such a town as Glasgow, for instance, the 18,000 registered electors there would probably have little or nothing to do either with commerce or manufactures connected with India. Moreover, he thought that the capital of Scotland ought not to have been omitted in the list of those towns; for, though Edinburgh did not export cotton or broadcloth to India, it exported men. No town in the kingdom sent so great a number of men to India as Edinburgh.
  MR. VANCEclaimed, in consequence of the observations of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, a representative in the Council for Dublin.
  MR. WYSEinquired whether the Council was to sit in Leadenhall Street or Cannon Row.
  COLONEL SYKESbegged to be understood as reserving to himself on the second reading of the measure full liberty to repeat the objections he had on a former occasion urged to the introduction of any Bill whatever. The proposal of the right hon. Gentleman comprehended so many complex arrangements that he thought they must be reduced to greater simplicity to be carried out at all. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had observed that it was of the greatest importance to send out a Commission to India to inquire into the state of the finances. Why, if the right hon. Gentleman sent to the India House be might have any account with respect to the finances of India he pleased, to the lowest figure; but the effect of this roving commission would paralyze the Government of India, for people there would regard it as being sent out to spy into their actions and destroy their power. He would ask whether it was intended that the patronage of the whole Indian army of 300,000 men was to be lodged in the hands of the Horse Guards?
  MR. COXsaid, that in consequence of the recent change of Ministry, they were likely now to have a much more liberal scheme of government for India. He was pleased to hear that four Members of the Council were to be elected by four great towns, and that the electors were to be Parliamentary voters. Now, seeing that the Directors of the East India Company were elected by ballot, he wanted to know whether the right hon. Gentleman would

  839
  object to the use of the ballot in the election of these Members of Council. The right hon. Gentleman had adverted to the civil patronage of India, and had stated how it was to be distributed; but he had not mentioned whether or not the whole patronage of the army in India was to be handed over to the Horse Guards.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he had been asked what were to be the duties of the Council, and he had to observe in reply that the duties of the Council were to be the transaction of all business connected with the government of India that could be transacted in England. They will have the entire transaction of that business, and from the details laid before him he thought that it would require that which would be exacted from the Members of Council—the total devotion of their time. No gentleman would be a Member of the Council who was an active member of a profession, or engaged in trade or commerce. Of course with respect to those Members who were elected, that rule could not apply; and it was desirable that the Council should contain some persons who were familiarly acquainted with the commerce and trade of the country. With respect to the qualifications for Members of the Council in consequence of residence in India, that applied to all the dominions under the authority of the Governor General; and therefore the Punjab and Scinde were included. He had been asked whether the Council was to sit and transact business in Cannon Row. The hon. Member who made that inquiry was not so familiar as himself with the quantity of business that must be transacted, and the space required for its transaction. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that the building in Cannon Row would not be able to hold the Council. Where, ultimately, the Members of Council might be collected together it was not for him to say. No doubt, they would be able to place themselves in some convenient locality; but for the present the Council must transact its business in Leadenhall Street. Some hon. Gentlemen seemed to think that under the Bill the whole military patronage of India would be handed over to the Horse Guards. Certainly, he must have conveyed his meaning in very ambiguous phraseology if he were misunderstood on that point; but he thought he had clearly stated that the patronage of the military establishment, was to be distributed among the Council, and
  840
  by them distributed among the people in the same way as was now done by the Board of Directors. An hon. Member had suggested that the Members of the Council should be elected by ballot. As the noble Lord opposite said with regard to the Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland, that when the whole of Ireland concurred to put an end to it the House of Commons might agree to its abolition, so he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) said, that when the whole of this country should be unanimous for the adoption of the vote by ballot the Government would then give the hon. Member's suggestion the gravest consideration.
  MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman had not explained very clearly what would be the position of the new President of the Council, or Secretary of State for India, as he was to be called. He stated that the President might summon the Council together whenever he pleased; but he wanted to know whether it was to be compulsory for that functionary to call a meeting of the Council? He also wished to ask whether the Vice President of the Council was to be a political officer and a Member of Parliament, who would retire from office along with the Cabinet Minister, who was President of the Council for India? What was to be the quorum to form a Court under the superintendence of the President or Vice President? He wished further to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the functions of the Select Committee. Under the existing system the President of the Board of Control might send orders relating to peace or war, and to negotiations or treaties with foreign states, through the Secret Committee; but that Committee was a mere name. It was, in fact, the President of the Board of Control. The members of the Secret Committee were bound by oath not to divulge anything communicated to them by the President as to proceedings to be adopted in India, but they could not object to, or remonstrate against, any decision of the President. He (Mr. V. Smith) wished to know whether it was intended that the Secretary of State for India should act by himself upon such questions as he had mentioned, or whether it would be necessary for him to consult the whole Council of eighteen members?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that it would not be compulsory upon the Secretary of State to consult the Council. It had not been considered desirable to fix any time for the

  841
  meetings of the Council; and he thought that, under the provisions of this Bill, the action of the Indian Council would be very similar to that of the Government of this country. The Council might be divided into Committees for the transaction of various descriptions of business. The meetings of the Council would be dictated by the exigencies or business of the time, in the same manner as the meetings of the Cabinet Councils, Councils might be held three or four times a week if it were thought necessary, but it might not be requisite that they should meet so frequently. It had not been deemed advisable to provide for any compulsory meetings of the Council, and the Secretary of State would be entirely free to exercise his discretion on the subject. The Bill would, however, provide that a meeting might be called at any time upon the requisition of six Members of the Council. He might state, also, that six Members would constitute a quorum. The Vice President of the Council was not to be a political officer, and could not sit in Parliament. There would be no difference between the Vice President and the other Members of the Council beyond his appointment as Vice President, which would entitle him to preside in the absence of the Secretary of State; but he would not receive a higher salary than his colleagues. The Bill provided for the appointment of a Secret Committee, in deference to the precedent set in every Act for the government of India since the time of Mr. Pitt; and from the conviction of Her Majesty's Government that it was better to adopt that plan than to leave the Secretary of State free to act without conferring with his Council, Hon. Gentlemen would, however, have an opportunity of considering all the details of the Bill during the recess.
  MR. CHEETHAMasked whether the elected Members of Council were to be paid?
  MR. HORSMANsupposed that the prohibition against being engaged in trade did not apply to the elected Members of the Council?
  SIR EDWARD COLEBR00KEinquired whether the President of the new Council would have the entire control of Indian finance both in India and in this country? Could he originate any grant of money or create any post? Would he be empowered on his sole authority to overrule any opinion that might be given
  842
  by the Council? The Bill of the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton provided a check on the issue of money by requiring the concurrence of a certain member of the Council. The provisions of the measure appeared to be so complicated that he would not venture to express any opinion upon it until he had an opportunity of considering its details. He understood from the right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) that it was intended to maintain the army in India in its present state, but to give certain powers to the President and Council with regard to its future regulation. He (Sir E. Colebrooke) strongly objected to commit such powers to a single branch of the Administration without the concurrence of Parliament. The power of the President and Council, too, in respect of the army required much explanation. Our present army in India comprised a considerable European force which had been enlisted for local service in that country, and, as he understood the right hon. Gentleman, the powers conferred by this Bill would enable the President and Council to increase the national army without the consent of Parliament. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider the provisions of the measure, relating to this subject.
  MR. SLANEYthought this Bill had been framed in a most liberal spirit; and he congratulated Her Majesty's Government upon their proposal to give a voice in the Government of India to the constituencies of large towns in this kingdom, which were especially interested in the Indian trade.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, the question before the House was one of immense importance, and he would not at this moment venture to express any opinion as to the scheme propounded by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was evident that much labour and thought had been bestowed upon the subject by Her Majesty's Government; but he deemed it essential that ample time should be afforded for considering this Bill, and he presumed that it would not be brought forward immediately on the reassembling of the House after the recess. He trusted the further discussion of the Bill would take place without any party spirit, but at the same time he must observe that there was a determination to consider whether in reality this plan would provide for the good government of India.
  MR. ROEBUCK MR. ROEBUCK, admitting that party feeling ought not to influence Members of

  843
  that House in dealing with a question of this nature, must say that he did not think this Bill would attain the object which the right hon. Gentleman who introduced it professed to have in view. He (Mr. Roebuck) understood the main objection to the present Government of India to be, that it was a double Government, but that the President of the Board of Control was the real Governor of India; while by the system which existed he was enabled to act under the shadow of the Court of Directors and did things under their name which were in reality his own acts. But under this Bill the same objection prevailed. The right hon. Gentleman proposed that the real Governor of India should be a Secretary of State for India, but that he should be assisted by a Council of eighteen members, chosen partly by the Crown and partly by election — the electoral principle being introduced in order to give a popular colour to the really despotic principle of the Government which it was intended to maintain. He (Mr. Roebuck) held that, from beginning to end, the proposal was a great sham. [Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen might laugh, but the result would show whether he was right or not; and he was quite prepared to insist on a much better measure than that which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to establish.
  MR. BRIGHTsaid, that he would not, for an obvious reason, long detain the House. The Bill had been submitted to them that evening in order that they might have a fortnight's time during the recess to consider—he hoped even for a longer period. He rose for the purpose of recommending the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues to employ the fortnight in the same manner in which, he supposed, most of those whom he addressed would employ it. The Members of the House were expected to consider the Bill; he warned the Members of the Government to reconsider it. He had been a great opponent of the East India Company for the last ten or twelve years, out of Parliament as well as in it, and he never regretted, and did not now regret, any single thing he had ever said that was had of their government; but it would be a subject of deep regret to him if he had ever said a word in its favour—though in saying this he knew that many members of the Court of Directors, as, for instance, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Guildford— were disposed to do what was right to-
  844
  wards India;—but objected to their government, because there was a total want of responsibility, and they could never lay hold of the great criminals who committed the great crimes which all England now admitted had been committed against the people of India. It was now proposed to change the government of India, and there were two propositions before the House for that purpose. As regarded the question of responsibility in these Bills, he would not pledge himself to any ultimate opinion; but, looking to the number of the Council, and the mode in which they were to be elected, he had great doubt—indeed he was rather inclined to the opinion that the proposal of the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton was, on the whole, to be preferred to that of the right hon. Gentleman. He was now speaking in respect of the single question of responsibility. He was quite sure that a Council of eight would invest the President with more responsibility than a Council of eighteen. He did not attach much importance to the notion of a popular election of some of the members of the Council. The Judges of the land were not elected by the constituencies of the United Kingdom, but yet they were usually and properly looked upon as being independent of the Crown and of Parliament; and he thought that members of the Council not chosen by election would perform their duties just as well as those who might be elected by old Indians, or by Manchester manufacturers, or merchants who some time in their lives had exported goods to India. He was afraid that the proposition that four or five large constituencies should elect those Councillors savoured of what was generally called "clap-trap," He was not speaking with any feeling of hostility to the present occupants of the Treasury bench; on the contrary, if a change of the present Government involved the return to office of their predecessors no man in that House could be more desirous of keeping them in the position which they now occupied. The subject, however, was one far beyond the consideration as to which side of the House the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton should sit upon. It was the business of the House, irrespective of all such considerations, to provide the best possible government for India that it could. He had in private conversations warned some of the occupants of the Treasury bench against some of the errors into which it was possible they might fall, and

  845
  he could not be supposed to be making the present observations in any feeling of hostility to them. His only object was to endeavour to impress upon the Government the propriety during the recess of reconsidering some of the provisions of the Bill with all that care and attention which he hoped would be bestowed upon the subject by every Member of that House. It might be very presumptuous in him, yet he must be permitted to express very great doubts as to the wisdom of the course which the Government had pursued. He would have preferred a much smaller Council, and that they had confined their Bill to provisions absolutely simple. There was no folly so great, and no scheme so unworkable, as an unwieldy, intricate, and complex one, one that was intended to catch somebody here and somebody there, and indecisively to grapple with one thing on one side and another thing on another side. What he wished for was a Bill with distinct provisions, clear and broad in its features, simple, comprehensive, and easily understood. It was such a measure as he had described which deserved the sanction of the House of Commons. He thought that he might be permitted to say so much with a view to Her Majesty's Government reconsidering the question, with a desire of finding out what was best for the people of India, so that when they met again they might, without any party spirit, consider the Bill, with a desire to govern well that country which had been so long misgoverned.
  SIR HARRY VERNEYdenied that India had been misgoverned. The government of the Company in India had produced a great amelioration in the condition of the Hindoo. Both the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton and the right hon. Gentleman opposite had paid a high tribute to the efficiency and ability of the public servants of India, and he was convinced that no Government which had ever existed had produced more able or more illustrious men.
  After some remarks from Mr. THORNELY, which were imperfectly heard,
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that many of the questions which had been addressed to him would he more appropriately answered at a future stage of the Bill. There was one, however, which perhaps he ought to notice, which was whether those Members of the Council elected by the great towns would be expected to attend regularly
  846
  To that he could reply that certainly they would, and to devote their time and energy to the duties of the office. With regard to the question of the noble Lord the Member for London, he proposed to take the second reading of the Bill on Friday, the 16th of April.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELLsuggested that it would be better to postpone it until Monday, the 19th of April.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERagreed to the suggestion, and the second reading of the Bill was fixed for that day.
  Leave given.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Lord STANLEY, and Mr. Secretary WALPOLE.
  Bill presented, and read 1°.
  On the Motion, "That the House at rising adjourn till Monday 12th of April."

THE TRANSPORT DEPARTMENT.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. LINDSAYcalled the attention of the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty, to the rules laid down by the Admiralty for the guidance of parties having business to transact at the Transport Department, Somerset House. Much inconvenience had resulted from the rule laid down forbidding verbal communications and requiring that all business should be conducted in writing. He knew of no public department in any country in which such a regulation existed, and he could point at this moment to a dozen private establishments where much more business was done than in this department, and where verbal communications took place as a matter of course, and with much advantage to the rapid transaction of business. He trusted that the right hon. Baronet would look into the matter, and would put an end to a rule which acted as a great obstacle in the way of those who had to transact business with the Transport Department.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONregretted extremely that inconvenience should have arisen to any person from the arrangement adverted to. Until he saw the notice of the hon. Gentleman on the paper, he was not aware that any ground of complaint existed with regard to the mode of transacting business at the Admiralty. He had, however, made inquiries on the subject, and he must admit that he thought the existing arrangements were not of that

  847
  simple and convenient nature which those concerned in the shipping trade of this country had a right to expect. For some years strangers going there had been in the habit of entering indiscriminately the rooms where the clerks were engaged, and the result was a great impediment to public business. To such a magnitude had this evil grown, that when the great pressure consequent upon the war arose, it became necessary to correct it. So far as he had been able to investigate the circumstance, however, it did not appear that the inconvenience had been remedied with the uniformity that it ought to have been. He could not, of course, consent to the indiscriminate admission of gentlemen to the Admiralty; but he admitted that those who went upon business were entitled to personal intercourse with the heads of the departments to which their business related. He also admitted that persons who went on business ought not to be exposed to the inconvenience of having to fill up unnecessary forms. The notice to which the hon. Gentleman had called attention, however, was not the only regulation at the Admiralty on the subject. There was another established by the Adjutant General, in the office over which he presided, which had been in force for several years, and which, while it had remedied the evil that before existed, had not led to any inconvenience. It was his intention that that regulation, or one similar to it, should be adopted uniformly throughout the different departments of the Admiralty.
  MR. CROSSLEYbore testimony to the inconvenience which resulted from the existing system, and expressed his satisfaction that the right hon. Gentleman had turned his attention to the subject.

CANAL ACROSS THE ISTHMUS OF SUEZ.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GRIFFITHsaid, he wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in consideration of the possible facilities of communication with our possessions in the East, and also of the desire manifested for the execution of that scheme by many continental nations, it be expedient in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, to offer opposition to the project of a ship canal across the Isthmus of Suez? In proposing this question, he might perhaps relieve the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he stated at once that he had no idea of asking for the slightest pecuniary resistance from the Government on behalf
  848
  of this project; the only assistance that he asked was of a negative character— that it should be exempted from opposition on account of merely political speculations. It was not his intention to defend the practicability of the undertaking on engineering or commercial grounds; and he should be sorry to guarantee to any capitalist a return upon the capital which he might choose to invest, seeing that he did not think it probable that the work would be executed for anything like the estimate which had been put forward. The only point which he wished to press upon the consideration of the Government was, whether such a scheme as a canal in any part of the world was to be objected to on account of recondite political speculations of so finely drawn a character, as to be not at all obvious to the comprehension of ordinary mortals? The project was intended to facilitate our communication with India, and although the scheme might not, in ordinary parlance, be very practicable, yet he contended that if it were capable of being carried out, instead of being prejudicial to British interests, it would tend materially to assist in the government of our Eastern possessions. We should get to India in less than half the time that it required at present, and it appeared to him that that was an object which was worthy of the utmost attention. The noble Lord the right hon. Member for Tiverton had spoken of the scheme as tending to the separation of Turkey from Egypt; but he was at a loss to see how it could have any such effect at all upon the relations of Turkey and Egypt. There were only two eases in which this canal could operate against the imperial submission, the Pacha owed to the Porte, under the stipulations of the hatti-scheriff of 1841. The one would be, if fortifications were erected along the course of the canal; and the other, if the principles of humanity were violated—that was, of the arrangements as to the labour required in its construction. Upon this political part of the question, it appeared that a valuable means of communication was to be interrupted out of jealousy towards a neighbouring country, and that on that ground a project for uniting two seas—bringing the two hemispheres into direct communication, and saving 4,000 miles of the sea voyage between Europe and India—was to fall through. The question he had to put was, whether it was to be understood that, in the dealings of the British Government with other countries, important and valuable

  849
  commercial projects, as canals, railways, and other enterprises, were to be opposed on account of any political considerations whatever?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied, that the question was one relating to a subject of considerable importance, and presented, in the form in which it had been put, two aspects—a political and a scientific aspect. With regard to the scientific part of the question, he regretted that his hon. Friend the Member for Whitby (Mr. Stephenson), who was much more competent than he was to deal with it, was not in the House; but his own opinion was, that the project for executing a canal across the Isthmus of Suez was a most futile idea—totally impossible to be carried out. It would be attended with a lavish expenditure of money, for which there would be no return; and that even if successfully carried out in the first instance, the operation of nature would in a short time defeat the ingenuity of man. That being his opinion, so far as the scientific question was concerned, he certainly should not act in furtherance of such a scheme, without the advice of men like the hon. Member for Whitby, and other scientific authorities. Then, as to the political aspect of the question, whether the Government intended to interfere with commercial operations in which political motives might be involved? As a general rule, he hoped never on that ground to have to oppose works in any part of the world that might tend to facilitate commercial intercourse. But as regarded the political considerations that might be involved in this particular case, that was an inquiry of so grave a character that he could not at present give an answer to it. He did not know that the political interests of this country were opposed to the construction of a canal across the Isthmus of Suez. The noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, when he was at the head of the Government, had given an opinion on that part of the subject; but the present Government had no evidence before them to justify them in opposing that, or any similar project on that ground. When he had placed before him evidence that this attempt to cut a canal across the Isthmus of Suez was practicable, which convinced him that it was a practicable object, and that on commercial considerations it was desirable to carry it out, he should then be prepared to consider the political part of the question; but as at present advised, believing it to be an
  850
  operation that could only end in failure, he had not arrived at the consideration of that ultimate and ulterior point to which his hon. Friend referred, namely, the political bearing of the question.
  Motion agreed to.
  House at rising to adjourn till Monday, 12th of April.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—3a General Board of Health (Skipton, &c.); Cambridge University Matriculation and Degrees.
ROYAL ASSENT—Consolidated Fund (£10,000,000); Consolidated Fund (£500,000); Mutiny; Marine Mutiny; Commons Enclosure.

THE PATRIOTIC FUND.—QUESTION.
THE DUKE OF NORFOLKwished to put a question to the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal respecting the second report of the Patriotic Fund. He understood that one of the Commissioners, Mr. Ball, did not concur in the Report presented by his Colleagues, and had delivered in his reasons in writing for not subscribing that document. He therefore begged to ask whether the Government had any objection to lay on the table a copy of the reasons assigned by Mr. Ball for dissenting from his brother Commissioners?
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, it was perfectly true that Mr. Ball had declined to sign the report of the Royal Commissioners, and that in consequence of such refusal he had written a letter to the Commission, explaining his reasons for not affixing his signature to that document. There was no objection whatever to the production of that letter; but it would obviously be more complete and more satisfactory that when laid on the table it should be accompanied by Major Harris's reply to it. Mr. Ball's letter contained animadversions on the conduct of Major Harris, in respect to the distribution of the charity, and the Commissioners had referred it to that gentleman to be answered. As soon as the

789
answer was received, it would be laid on the table together with Mr. Ball's letter.
THE DUKE OF NORFOLKalso inquired when the printed copies of the report of the Commissioners would he distributed?
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, the Royal Commissioners had the print in their hands, and the report would be struck off immediately.

PASSING TOLLS AND SHIPPING DUES—PETITIONS—QUESTION.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYpresented petitions from the Corporation and Shipowners' Society, of Tynemouth, for the Abolition of Passing Tolls and Shipping Dues. The late Government had attempted to remove this burden; but it was found that the Bill introduced in the other House ought to have been brought in as a private Bill. In the present Session it had been under the consideration of the late Government what steps it would be host to take. He wished to know if the Government intended to introduce any measure.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, that the subject was under the consideration of the Board of Trade, but that department had not yet arrived at any conclusion upon it. He hoped, however, that before long they would be able to bring in a measure of relief from a portion, if Dot from the whole of these burdens.

BARRACK ACCOMMODATION.

  RETURNS MOVED FOR.
  LORD PANMURE: In rising to move for the Returns of which I have given notice, I shall make no apology for occupying your Lordships' time for a very few minutes on a subject to which I feel sure that none of your Lordships are indifferent— I mean the social condition of the soldier, with respect to which it is desirable that some explanation should be offered both to this House and to the public out of doors. This question seems to me to be very much misunderstood, to judge from all that is spoken and written upon it. Any one who formed his opinion from the statements made in the public press and elsewhere would imagine that the comfort of the soldier had been grossly neglected, and that no pains whatever had been taken to improve his social condition. Now, my Lords, I must say that that is a very great mistake, and I think that I shall be able to prove to your Lordships that there is no class of Her Majesty's subjects which has had its interest more carefully attended to, or more diligently looked into than that very class
  790
  which successive Governments have been accused of treating with neglect—a class which, I must say, has proved itself worthy of all the care bestowed upon it. I am most anxious to make this statement at the present moment, because I think that the statements which have gone abroad upon this subject may tend to check the aspiration of the young men of this country to join the military profession, and may thus cast difficulties in the way of obtaining recruits. Before I touch upon the question of barracks, I am very anxious to draw your Lordships' attention to the changes which have been made during the last twenty-five years in the moral and physical condition of the soldier. I do not mean to say that all has been done to improve the condition of the soldier which can be done; on the contrary, much still remains before the army is placed in that condition which I have always considered that the military profession ought to occupy. It is a profession which ought to be made attractive to the youth of this country, and I hope to see the day—although I fear it may be somewhat distant—when the dismissal of a man from the service of the country, whether from the army or the navy, will be considered as great a disgrace by the man, as it is at present by the officer. I think that it would be very desirable to attain that end, but it will take some time, and will require a considerable expenditure of money before the army can be brought to the condition in which I should wish to see it. The present state of the army, as compared with its condition when I joined it, affords me ground for congratulation. I will not go so far back, but I would wish to point out to your Lordships the changes which have been introduced by those distinguished individuals who have been at the head of the War Department during the last five-and-twenty years. I find that when Lord Grey was Secretary at War, the first thing which he did in order to improve the condition of the soldier was to amend the routine as regarded foreign reliefs, which up to that time had never been very definitely settled. At the time when Lord Grey took the matter in hand, there were regiments which had been out of the country for upwards of twenty years; but Lord Grey so arranged the circle of relief with the approval of the military authorities of the day, that no soldier need expect, except in cases of emergency, even when serving so far away as the East Indies, to be kept away from this country for a longer period than fifteen years—the ordinary term being

  791
  ten years. Now, that was a change most beneficial to the soldier, and it has been adhered to as closely as possible, though it has caused an increased expenditure, for the multiplicity of reliefs entail a proportionate expense, to which Parliament most readily and most cheerfully submitted. Now, what was the next Act of Lord Grey? Why, my Lords, he established the system of good-conduct pay; and a greater been was never bestowed upon the army, or a greater benefit conferred upon the public service, because it has gradually, to a considerable extent, superseded the necessity of punishment. That step again caused a large demand upon the finances of the country. Lord Grey also introduced, although he did not remain in office long enough to carry it into effect, the principle of savings banks in the army; and that principle was subsequently most effectually carried out by my noble Friend the late Lord Hardinge, who had the satisfaction of introducing a savings bank into every regiment. Now, my Lords, that was a great step in the way of improving the condition of the soldier. The establishment of such institutions induces the good soldier to lay by a portion of his pay, which otherwise would be wasted in frivolous amusements or perhaps in something worse. Another Act of Lord Hardinge's was to take care of the interest of old soldiers. Before his time, when persons left the army upon a pension, they never were looked after, and instead of an old soldier being regarded as a good member of society, I am sorry to say that he was generally looked upon as very much the contrary. Under the old system frauds were numerous. Lord Hardinge put an end to those frauds by so arranging that the pensioner should draw his pension sometimes weekly and sometimes quarterly, but always in advance instead of in arrear; and thus he made the pensioners a well-cared for and well-conducted body of men; and it is at present a body consisting of from 14,000 to 18,000 armed men, who would be effective for the defence of the country, and who have on more than one occasion done good service in time of domestic disturbance. I now come to the administration of the War Department of my right hon. Friend Mr. Sidney Herbert, who again bestowed a great benefit upon the army by establishing a system of military and regimental education; and I had the satisfaction during the time when I was in office of extending that system of education and placing it upon an efficient footing. At the same time, in order to
  792
  enable me to do so, I was obliged to come to Parliament and appeal to its generosity, year by year, for large sums of money to meet the exigencies of the case. I had also, my Lords, the satisfaction of introducing libraries into the barracks, both regimental and garrison, which will, I think, improve to a great extent the mental cultivation of the soldier. I did not succeed in establishing an educational test for promotion to the position of a noncommissioned officer, but I am happy to think that the illustrious Duke at the head of the army is inclined to carry out that principle as far as possible, although it is impossible to fix upon any absolute educational standard for promotion. Then, again, my Lords, up to the year 1847 or 1848 there was a custom existing of selling spirits in barracks at the canteens, and young men were encouraged by the example of older soldiers to indulge in a habit most injurious to them; while Government, by taking rent for those canteens, actually encouraged that state of things. There were men able to drink an enormous quantity of spirits without much effect upon themselves, but who, by their example, produced a very bad effect upon their younger comrades. Well, my Lords, by the consent of Parliament, and with the countenance of the Commander in Chief, the practice of selling spirits in canteens in barracks has been entirely done away with, though to the loss of the Ordnance, under the article of rent, of £20,000 a year, and the result—and I may appeal to the illustrious Duke near me (the Duke of Cambridge) for confirmation—has been that there does not now exist in the army that description of man, technically called "a sponge," which formerly existed, who could take any quantity of spirits apparently without effect. I think, my Lords, that the abolition of the sale of spirits in the canteens was one of the greatest blessings ever conferred upon the British army; and at present canteens are so regulated that the soldier can obtain all that he requires at reasonable prices. Formerly a soldier could not retire with a pension, after, however long a period of service, unless he were worn out or had passed through a hospital. At present every soldier knows that at the end of a certain period he can retire with a pension of 8d a day. Then, again, with reference to the rations of the soldier, Parliament stepped in, and with a liberality which cannot be too much praised, sacrificed a revenue of no less than £73,000 a year to equalize

  793
  and diminish the stoppages which were put upon the soldier for his rations. So, also, with respect to the spiritual instruction of the soldier. When I first became Secretary at War we had six or seven chaplains for the whole army. We have now twenty-two chaplains and thirty-five assistant chaplains, in addition to expending £35,000 a year in affording spiritual instruction generally to the whole army. Then, again, as to bounty—in former years it was never paid to the soldier at all—it was eked out in one tiling or another, and the soldier got nothing. Now, instead of charging the soldier for his kit and other articles, which swallowed up the bounty, we provide him with a free kit, and give him £2 2s. out of the £5 5s. bounty, and £3 3s. out of the £6 6s.; and every man knows when he enlists that he will receive that sum in ready money, and that the remainder of the bounty will be given him in necessaries. Again, it was only lately that it was my good fortune to be enabled, with the consent of the Treasury and with the approbation of the Commander in Chief, to make compensation to non-commissioned officers for the loss of that good-conduct pay which they had acquired when privates, and which they could not carry with them when they were made non-commissioned officers. We raised the pay of the sergeants 2d. a day in order to compensate them for that loss. Now, I must say, that all these things taken together, with many other improvements in the condition of the soldier which I will not now stop to enumerate, ought to prove to your Lordships and to the country that the assertions which have been made that the condition of the British soldier has been neglected by the Government for the last twenty-five years is totally unfounded. The real fact is, that everything has been done quietly and without any display or boasting; the changes have been made; the estimates have been increased to meet those various changes; and because all has been done unostentatiously the public have taken no notice of it, and are quite in ignorance of the vast improvements which have taken place in the condition of the soldier. These are some of the improvements in the physical condition of the soldier which I have thought it necessary to dilate upon. I now come to the question of barrack accommodation. It has been stated that the barracks are so bad that it is worse than cruelty to compel soldiers to live in them; that no sanitary science whatever has been applied to them, and that the soldiers, in-
  794
  stead of being properly accommodated, are. put into buildings as if merely for the purpose of throwing them into bad health. That is a great mistake, because into all the barracks which have been built for some years past sanitary improvements have been introduced—drainage, ventilation, lavatories, supply of water—all these matters have been diligently attended to, and where they have not existed in old barracks they have, to some extent, also been supplied. But those barracks were built at a time when no man gave heed to sanitary improvements. It was sufficient in those days if you simply lodged the soldier and gave him a covering from the weather. I recollect the system of tiers of berths in the barrack-room, three in a tier, and when a room which is now held to be too crowded if twenty-five men are placed in it, would, without any compunction, have been set apart for fifty or sixty. All these thing have been amended. Every soldier has now a separate bed, and if you go into even an old-fashioned barracks in the daytime—I cannot answer as to the night—you will find everything neat, clean, and in good order. I admit that the ventilation and drainage may in some cases yet he deficient; but in many places it is utterly impossible to provide those sanitary improvements for which the public now so loudly call. If the Government are to he enabled to carry out in barracks, to its full extent, the sanitary system which is advocated by the Commissioners, I warn your Lordships that it will require a very large sum of money indeed. I am quite ready to take upon myself my full share of blame—if blame there be—for not having asked from Parliament a larger sum to be applied in that direction; and I shall throw no blame whatever upon the present Government if they should find it as difficult as I did to meet the public expectations with regard to the improvements in barracks, which are now, I think, raised to a very high and somewhat unnecessary pitch. In looking at the Report of the Commission which has lately been issued to inquire into the state of barracks, I cannot help referring to one part, which bears upon the barracks of the Household troops. It appears from the statistical returns published by that Commission that the mortality in the Guards is larger than that in any other portion of Her Majesty's army; and that high rate of mortality has been attributed to the present state of their barracks. I do not admit that; and I think that a very unfair advantage has

  795
  been taken of the fact of the high rate of mortality to visit upon the heads of the Colonels of the Guards the results which have been elicited. We might just as well visit upon the heads of the Colonels of any other regiments the faults which have been found to exist in other barracks of the kingdom as hold the Colonels of the Guards accountable for any deficiencies which may be observable in their barracks. If the reports of the Colonels of the Guards could have been attended to I admit that the Guards would have been much better lodged than in some instances they are at present; but the House must remember that the cost of barracks in the neighbourhood of London is something enormous. Including the purchase of a site, the erection of barracks in the immediate vicinity of London for the accommodation of 1,000 Guards would not cost less than from £150,000 to £200,000. These are very serious matters, and, when we take the whole question into consideration, we must weigh well what is required for the other military services of the country before we make up our minds to expend all our money upon barracks. But I deny that the mortality among the Guards is attributable to the manner in which they are lodged. There are curious facts connected with barracks as with other things. Those which one would think to be the most healthy often turn out to be not nearly so healthy as the oldest, and, to all appearance, dirtiest barracks. I believe, for example, that the Wellington Barracks are not nearly so healthy as the Portman Street Barracks. These latter are surrounded on all sides by houses; they have been, comparatively, unattended to for a long time; they are rented only from year to year, and yet they are, I believe, more healthy than any other barracks in which the Guards are placed, on which hundreds and thousands of pounds have been expended. But I do not attribute the mortality among the Guards to their lodging. Go to Chatham and look at the condition of the Engineers. They are more hardly worked than the Guards; they are employed for a greater number of hours; they work above ground and under ground, in mud and in water; their barrack accommodation is so limited, that those who come off duty sleep in the beds of those who relieve them; yet notwithstanding all that, and notwithstanding that the amount of cubic air which they breathe in barracks is much smaller than that which the Guards enjoy, the Engineers at Chatham are far more healthy than the
  796
  Guards. Why is this? I think it is not on account of the lodging, but the night duty, to which subject my illustrious Friend the Commander in Chief has for some time past paid attention. I think there are many sentries in this metropolis that could be well dispensed with by the aid of the police. That subject deserves the attention of the Government. From time to time during the last twenty-five years, the Government has considered in what manner the evils of the present system could be remedied. Every Government has shown itself most anxious to improve the accommodation of the army, and has been successful in making progress in that direction. But the sanitary condition of the soldiers is not the only thing for which provision has to be made in the Army Estimates. Those Estimates for the last two years have been upwards of £11,500,000 per annum. Of that sum £660,000 has been devoted to barracks, and of the latter sum £220,000 has been required to repair the existing barracks; so vast is the extent of barrack accommodation of this country, and the wear and tear to which the barracks are subject. New barracks have been built at Portsmouth and elsewhere, whereby the army has been greatly benefited. But we cannot overlook the state of our military coast defences, and the vast sums required to maintain them in a proper condition. It is just as necessary to pay attention to our great dockyards and the arsenals on our coasts, as to provide barrack accommodation for our soldiers. Great improvements are being made at Portsmouth and other parts of the country to which I will not now particularly allude, but I am quite certain that the attention of the noble Earl at the head of the Government will be turned in that direction. We have great military stations abroad, and they, too, require great attention. We must endeavour to dispense the money voted for military objects generally, and not confine the expenditure to one particular point. I am quite willing that the Government should effect every reasonable improvement of the sanitary condition of our soldiers, and I am quite certain that they will do so; but we must remember that while the House of Commons is quite ready to vote for increased barrack accommodation, it is not very willing to provide the Ways and Means necessary for that purpose. I therefore hope that the public press and Members of Parliament will urge upon the public, that, if they think increased accommodation should be given to the army,

  797
  they must instruct their representatives in Parliament to vote the necessary Ways and Means, in conclusion, I beg to say I thought this matter required some elucidation, and I have endeavoured, though imperfectly, to afford it. The noble Lord concluded by moving—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, for Return of the Sums of Money proposed in the Army Estimates of 1856–7, and 1858–9, to be expended on Barracks, showing,
  1st. The sums required for the Erection of New Barracks, and stating the different Localities in which they are to be erected, and whether they are intended to replace old Barracks.
  2nd. The Sums required for supplying Water, improving Drainage, or for ventilating existing Barracks.
  3rd. The Sums required generally for sanitary Purposes connected with Barracks or Hospitals, and for the Provision of Quarters for married Non-Commissioned Officers and Soldiers.
  Also,
  Return of the Number of Officers and Men for whom Quarters were to be provided by the new Barracks, for which Votes were proposed in the Estimates for the Three Years 1850–7, 1857–8, and 1858–9.
  "Of the Total Amount expended on new Barracks within the United Kingdom in the Twenty Years ending April, 1856, and of the Number of Officers and Men such Barracks were calculated to contain. And also,
  "Copies of any Correspondence within the last Ten Years between the Horse Guards and other Departments of the Government with respect to proposed Additions to or Improvements of Importance in the Barracks of the United Kingdom, which have been recommended for the Health of the Troops, hut refused on the Ground of Expense."
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: My Lords, I rise at once, in consequence of the speech of my noble Friend who has just sat down, to address a few observations to your Lordships; and I am extremely glad that he has given me an opportunity of stating as publicly as I can, that it was with the greatest regret I found that some observations of mine on a recent occasion were supposed to throw some blame either upon the noble Baron or the Government with which he was connected. I felt it my duty to make such a statement as I thought the public would understand, to show that no peculiar blame ought to attach to myself as the head of the army, or to the other members of it, with respect to the barrack accommodation in this country; but nothing could be further from my intention than to make any attack upon my noble Friend, or upon the heads of any one of the departments connected with the army. So far from that, I have always thought that the noble Baron has done a great deal towards ameliorating the
  798
  condition of our soldiers. He is the first Secretary of State with whom I have had any personal dealings in public matters; but I believe I am not wrong in stating, without any disrespect to his predecessors, or to any of those who have conducted the Ordnance Department, that nobody could have been more anxious or zealous than he to improve the accommodation of the army. I believe it will be found that during the period he was at the head of the War Department more money was expended in barrack and other improvements than during the administration of any of his predecessors. I repeat, I throw no blame on any of his predecessors. We are only progressing in military matters with the spirit of the age, and the probability is that every year fresh demands will be made by the public upon the Secretary for War to improve the condition of the army; and I agree with the noble Baron that the great difficulty to be surmounted is the finding the ways and means to meet these demands. Having stated so much, I trust I may be permitted to follow the noble Baron in his other statements, and to express the satisfaction which I felt on hearing them. I cordially concur with the noble Baron in all that has fallen from him in respect to the improved condition of the soldier. I think, however, it would be very wrong for us to conclude, because the present accommodation is not all we could desire, that our ancestors had neglected the condition of the soldier. The truth is this, that our soldiers arc thought much more of at the present time than heretofore. Everything has progressed in civil life; every class of society has advanced in its ideas of comfort and accommodation; it would therefore be monstrous to suppose that the soldier alone should be left in the state in which he formerly was. This fact has produced the present fooling that exists abroad—namely, that the accommodation afforded to our army is defective. It was my intention to have stated to your Lordships that I felt it necessary the public should understand that in either of the two capacities in which I have the honour to be placed, I have not been neglectful of my duty. I have not been neglectful of my duty either as colonel of the regiment of Guards, or in my official position as head of the army. The noble Baron, however, has relieved me of the necessity of making any defence of my-character as colonel of the Guards; for he has truly stated that the colonels of the Guards have no power whatever, beyond any other

  799
  colonels of regiments, to alter the condition of the barracks, or to make any alterations in respect to them; and I say this, that it would be most improper to allow the colonels of the Guards greater power than that possessed by the other colonels, I conceive that the position of a colonel of the Guards—a most honourable one, no doubt—is essentially the same, in regard to power, as that of any other colonel in the army. I think it would he a great misfortune indeed that an impression should be made upon the army generally that the colonels of the Guards had greater power in ameliorating the condition of the soldier than that of any other colonel. I was, therefore, very glad to hear the observations that fell from the noble Baron on the subject. I may also observe that in the course of the communications that have taken place between the noble Baron and myself, we both fully concurred in the necessity of effecting various improvements in the service; and that in order to carry out such improvements it would be necessary to introduce some additional items in our army estimates. The noble Baron, however, felt that we should be placing the Government in a false position if we insisted at that time upon these improvements, knowing that they would involve them in much difficulty as regarded the ways and means. It is easy to point out improvements that might be made in the condition of our troops; but it is a matter of considerable difficulty to find the ways and means of carrying them out. The one thing is a simple process—namely, to resolve upon the desirability of effecting certain improvements; but when we consider the immense expenditure which those improvements would involve, the difficulty then becomes exceedingly great of persuading the country into bearing an increased amount of taxation, without which those improvements cannot be carried out. I rejoice, however, that the subject has attracted so much of public notice, for I am persuaded that the agitation of it is the only mode by which the expenditure can be effected; because I am persuaded that until the public feel that the only mode of ameliorating the condition of the soldier is by their consenting to their representatives in Parliament voting additional expenditure it will be impossible for the Government to introduce into the army those changes which the public voice has lately demanded. I hope I may be permitted to allude now to one point in
  800
  particular—namely, the barracks of the Guards, the accommodation in which has been so much commented upon. My noble Friend (Lord Panmure) was of opinion that it was most desirable that another barrack should be built; but at the eleventh hour, when we came to discuss the point, and considered that it would involve an outlay of a very large amount of money, we were of opinion that the time had not then arrived for making such a call upon the country, and that alone induced us to give up that project. Another difficulty arising from the erection of further barrack accommodation is the enormous expense of the land that would be required for a site for the same, and the obstacles in the way of finding a suitable locality. The expense of the building of the barracks itself is nothing to be compared to the outlay required for the ground. One thing which has been alluded to by my noble Friend connected with the comfort of the soldier is also a subject of grave consideration—namely, the propriety of providing libraries, reading-rooms, washing, &c. rooms, which have been from time to time introduced into several of our military establishments. Now, the introduction of those accessories appears at first sight very simple, and may be thought to affect but little the question of barrack accommodation; but I contend that it has a great deal to do with it. I think it is essentially necessary, in every barrack in the country, to provide libraries, washing-rooms, and reading-rooms; and, where these improvements have been introduced, you were obliged to have them taken out of the space which entered into the general accommodation of the barracks. I am ready to admit that where it was possible, in barracks that have been erected of late years, these conveniences have been introduced without, to any considerable extent, encroaching on the ordinary accommodation; but still, for a considerable period, as I had opportunities of knowing when I was in Ireland, and even to this day in many towns in England, it will be found that barrack accommodation has been decreased in order to obtain those advantages for soldiers which are so essentially necessary. My Lords, there is another point worthy of consideration. If you introduce an improvement into one barrack, you must introduce it into all; because, if the soldier once finds the advantage of such an improvement—which he certainly soon does—he will be greatly dissatisfied if, on being removed to a different part of the

  801
  country, he has to experience the want of it in his new quarters. I repeat, therefore, my Lords, that if you introduce an improvement into one barrack, you will be obliged to introduce it into another. Again, my Lords, you must bear in mind that we are speaking not alone of the United Kingdom, but of the Colonies also, and that these things cannot be done without an enormous outlay. It is, however, the business, as well as the policy of the Government, to extend the expenditure over a certain number of years. These progressive improvements, however, are going on, and the fact of their not being yet everywhere introduced is no proof that they have not been thought of, or that the proper authorities are at all indifferent to the importance of the subject. I am not aware whether the noble Baron intends to move for all the documents enumerated in the notice paper—not alone those stated in connection with his own name, but also those in connection with that of the noble Earl (Earl Grey) whom I do not now see in his place. All I can say is, that I should like to see the third Return indicated in the Motion of my noble Friend (Lord Panmure) made a little more general and extensive than he appears to wish it to be. I should like that Return to contain a statement which I think is more valuable than any other in connection with this question, and in which I, as a military man, have an especial concern; and that is the annual approximate estimate for the general barrack accommodation of the country on which the Estimates of the Secretary of State—and formerly those of the Master General of the Ordnance—are based. That Estimate was formerly sent directly to the Ordnance Office, and did not pass through the hands of the Commander in Chief at all. Since the change as to the Secretary of State has been introduced, an arrangement has been made by my noble Friend (Lord Panmure), by which that Estimate shall first come to the Commander in Chief, and, after he has inspected it, shall be passed on to the Secretary of State, who shall then decide on the items to be retained and those to be struck out. It gives the local wants of the army more fully than any other public document; and it is those portions of it that are passed by the Secretary of State, and those that are struck out by the Secretary of State, which will prove the mode in which the relative items are valued and the necessity for each is considered. I
  802
  contend that the military authorities have attended, and do attend, most conscientiously to the wants of the army. I do not impute any blame to the Secretary of State for the manner in which the items in the Estimate are reduced; but still the fact is, the actual expenditure is not decided upon by the military authorities alone, but by the military authorities in conjunction with the Secretary of State. My Lords, in consequence of the erroneous statements that have gone forth to the country in reference to this subject, I have ventured to make this statement; and I can only say I cordially approve these Returns being called for, convinced as I am that they will prove a benefit to the service, and that it will be found that my noble Friend has not done amiss in the mode in which he has disposed of the resources of the country in this department of the public service.
  The Earl of CARDIGANsaid, he was able, on his own experience, to corroborate the statements made by the noble Baron opposite (Lord Panmure) and the illustrious Duke as to the misapprehension and misunderstanding which existed in the public mind on the subject of the alleged extreme inconvenience and discomfort of the Barrack accommodation of the United Kingdom. Having the honour of commanding one of Her Majesty's regiments, and holding besides the position which he now did (Inspector General of Cavalry) he had peculiar opportunities of knowing the facts connected with a large number of barracks in various parts of the country, and he must say the statements which had gone forth to the public of the discomfort experienced by the soldiers had been very much exaggerated. Of late years many arrangements had been made in the barracks with the view to the convenience and comfort of the soldiers. He would particularly instance that by which married men and their families had been removed from the rooms in which single men lived. The rooms were belter ventilated than formerly, and were not overcrowded, and the soldiers had in many instances comforts as far as it was possible to provide them. There was one point on which great misapprehension prevailed. It was said the private soldiers in the army were fed entirely on boiled beef. There never was so great a mistake. It was undoubtedly true that the barracks did not afford convenience for roasting meat; but there was scarcely a regiment in the ser-

  803
  vice in which the men had not three or four times a week good baked meat and potatoes. That might not be quite as good as roast meat; but it was an absurd idea to go forth to the country that the army was entirely fed on boiled beef. It had also been imputed to the military authorities that the soldiers were allowed to go almost at any hour in the day, but at all events, at an early hour in the morning, to the canteens, where they were supplied with spirits. Now, in every well-regulated regiment in the service, there was either a sergeant or some other non-commissioned officer, or sentry, posted near each canteen from an early hour in the morning, and no man was allowed to drink spirits until after the dinner hour. If an attempt were made to prevent the men from taking spirits in the canteens in the afternoon the men would assuredly go elsewhere for drink, and to the vice of intemperance they would probably add the military offence of being absent without leave. Another point to which the public attention had been called was that there should be some amelioration of the life of the soldier with regard to night duty. It was impossible to say that where there were so many sentries from the battalion of Guards some few might not be displaced; but surely if the health of soldiers, who were enlisted to perform all military duties, and above all the duty of sentries—which was the first duty both of cavalry and infantry —suffered, they would not run the risk of injuring the health of the civil police by making them perform a duty which ought especially to be performed by soldiers, and was performed by the soldiers of every army in the world.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, the public had felt very strongly the disclosures in the Report of the Sanitary Commissioners—how the soldier, after all that he had suffered abroad, was brought home to have his life exposed in the manner which the Commissioners represented; and he thought that if the Government looked into the question they would find that something might be done by which the condition of the soldier might be very much improved without any great expense. In the time of the former war the troops were concentrated upon the coast for fear of invasion, and during the long peace which succeeded they were scattered through the manufacturing towns and put about in all sorts of places. It was now held that the troops ought not to be scattered, and that
  804
  they ought to be brought more together, for the purpose of military training. The Government knew how many men should be located in certain districts, and they ought to consider how they could accommodate the remainder in such places as were best adapted for military discipline. Large sums of money were annually spent upon matters less pressing than the wants of the army. The public might, for instance, look to that House, and they would find that nearly £2,000,000 of money had been spent on the Houses of Parliament, and yet Parliament could not afford anything for the soldier. Their Lordships were in that building only for a few hours a day, and a thousand things were done by way of ornament which they would very slightly miss. It was only the other day that they showed in Westminster Hall that they were going to build palaces for all the public offices. Space in London was said to be expensive, but it did not seem so by the plans there exhibited, which showed a grand scheme for expending £1,500,000 or £2,000,000 at the very least. Before they lodged the public clerks so splendidly let them do something for the soldiers. It would be better economy and a refutation of that which was in everybody's mouth, because the people had seen the plans in Westminster Hall, "that the Government would spend money on palaces for Ministers to receive people in, but would not build rooms for soldiers to occupy by night and by day." That was the feeling of the public; and he hoped that the Government would deal with the subject in a proper and enlarged spirit. The Wellington Barracks were model barracks. When he was at the office of Works some business took him there, and he said he would go over them. It was between two and three o'clock in the afternoon, when the rooms ought to have been tolerably fresh; but when he went down stairs he found the room so foul and disgusting that he said he was sure it was not a fit place for people to sleep in. The soldiers said, "It is very bad now, Sir, but you can have no idea how bad it is unless you came in the morning." It struck him so forcibly that something ought to be done that although it was no immediate business of his, he went at once to the Ordnance and made a representation upon the subject. He hoped the Government would take the matter into their serious consideration, and postpone some other expenditure; and if it could not be effected otherwise, apply to Parliament for

  805
  money to do what was necessary for the soldier.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I have listened with much attention to the speeches made by the noble Baron and the illustrious Duke sitting upon the cross benches. It is very well that the country should know, as it will know by the satisfactory statements just made, that the sanitary as well as the moral and social condition of the soldier has been by no means such a matter of indifference to any of the successive Governments of Her Majesty, as it has been by some persons falsely and rashly assumed. As there is no subject upon which the public take a deeper interest than the well-being, comfort, and improvement of the soldier, so there is no subject upon which successive Governments have better represented the public feeling. But, as the noble Baron has truly said, all those improvements demanded of late years have proceeded from the increased expectations of the people. The enlarged ideas of comforts and luxury now entertained by civilians generally have naturally extended to the military, and these lead, and will continue to lead, to great and constantly accumulating demands for further amelioration. With regard to the sanitary condition of our army, it is a gratifying fact that the statements made out of doors are greatly exaggerated. If any noble Lord will only look back to what amount of accommodation in an ordinary private gentleman's country-house was satisfactory thirty or forty years ago, and how utterly insufficient it is deemed now, he will have some means of estimating the necessarily increased expense arising out of the improvements required in the enormous military establishments of this country. It is not that the Government has neglected to provide increased comforts, but that the increased comforts do not come up to the different scale of comfort calculated by all classes of society. My Lords, there is a most earnest determination on the part of Her Majesty's Government to look carefully into this important subject, especially as it bears upon the sanitary condition of the army. But your Lordships must recollect—what has been very truly said by the noble Baron opposite—that all those sanitary improvements require an enormous expenditure of the public money, therefore they cannot be curried out all at once. Although, then, their progress may be slow, it is gradual. Although we cannot do at once all we desire, we must rest satisfied
  806
  that we are advancing as fast as it is possible under the circumstances. We must at the same time keep our minds upon the necessity of further improvements, with a full determination of carrying them out as soon as we have the means of doing so. The noble Baron has omitted to state one thing, to which, I think, it right to call his attention. The Report of the Sanitary Commission has greatly excited the public feeling, and created some alarm as regards the condition of the army. Much indignation has been expressed at the indifference which, it is alleged, the authorities have manifested in respect to the subject. This is a very erroneous view. The Commission has fully reported on the case, and the noble Baron has omitted to allude to one circumstance connected with the matter, and which, I think, ought to be mentioned —namely, that almost the last step in his official capacity was the appointment of four Sub-committees, at the head of which was the right hon. Sidney Herbert, a gentleman to whom the army was already much indebted for the attention which he has given to the subject. Those Subcommittees were requested to take into their consideration the recommendations of the Sanitary Commission, and to represent to the Government such of them as they thought could be carried out. Those Subcommittees have not as yet reported. The Government are anxiously awaiting this Report. I believe that they were authorized by the noble Baron to lay out a considerable sum of money in mitigating the most gross and crying defects. Now, although in order to give effect to these intentions it will probably be necessary to call on Parliament for an increase in the votes, we shall not hesitate in the discharge of our duty to examine carefully the recommendations of the Sanitary Commission, and to take steps gradually to carry into effect such of them as we may approve of. It must be done gradually, but we will not shrink from making the necessary application to Parliament to enable us to carry out those objects of paramount importance connected with sanitary improvements. My Lords, I heard, with considerable regret, the tone in which the noble Duke (the Duke of Somerset) has addressed the House. I am certainly not prepared to vindicate all the exaggerated expenditure that has been made, or is supposed to be in contemplation, on our public buildings. But I regret that the noble Duke's language should be such as is calculated to produce an im-

  807
  pression on the public mind that Parliament and the Government were wasting enormous sums of money upon buildings, and by so doing were depriving themselves of the means of giving more healthful and more necessary accommodation to the soldier. I think it would be most unfortunate were the three classes, the Parliament, the people and the army, to be placed in invidious contrast. I am sure that the noble Duke did not intend to say that the Parliament and the Government were regardless of the sanitary condition of our army, and had been only attentive upon the expenditure of an enormous sum of money upon public buildings. His language, however, is certainly calculated to convey such an opinion, although the main reason why nothing has been done, is the enormous expense suggested by the plans which have been offered, nevertheless I am afraid that very large sums are absolutely necessary to be expended upon public offices which are in a state of absolute decay and dilapidation. The Foreign Office has for years been in a dangerous state. When I had the honour of serving the Crown in 1852, the Foreign Office was admittedly in a most dilapidated and dangerous situation. From that time up to the present, nothing has been done to it. The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Clarendon) may congratulate himself from having escaped from the danger; but I am sure he will bear testimony to the fact, that he has never walked into it without an apprehension that something serious might happen from the ruinous state of the building. With regard to the papers moved for, I am not prepared upon the part of the Government to offer any objection to their production; but I confess that I have some doubt respecting the expediency of producing the last one, with reference to the communication between different departments of the State, for so long a period as ten years. I had rather that paper had not been moved for, more especially as the manner in which the Motion was worded seemed to make an invidious distinction, and to lead to the inference that something absolutely necessary for the comfort of the soldiers had been disregarded on the sole ground of expense. No doubt there are many things which it might be desirable to do; but which cannot be carried out with due attention to the strict rules of economy; and therefore, it will be better not to raise questions which might put different departments of the
  808
  State into invidious positions. It is desirable enough to carry out improvements if you can do so without raising financial difficulties; but where they exist, we must look to the financial department to afford the means of carrying them out as soon as financial pressure ceases. In the meanwhile, we must abandon some improvements that are desirable, and adopt those only that are absolutely necessary. I hope, therefore, that the noble Baron will consent to withdraw the last portion of his Motion, although, of course, as far as the present Government are concerned, there could be no objection to call upon the different Departments for the production of these papers. But a correspondence which was to a great extent of a private and unofficial character might expose to unjust reflections, persons who may be no longer connected with their departments, or who may have ceased to exist. Perhaps if the noble Baron feels the force of the objection, he will not press this portion of the Motion, and thus avoid the inconvenience which might result from the production of the whole correspondence.
  LORD PANMUREsaid, he had heard with great satisfaction the opinions which had been drawn forth by the discussion, and more especially was he pleased at the candid manner in which the illustrious Duke at the head of the army had expressed himself on this question. With respect to the observations of the noble Earl, the Inspector General of Cavalry (the Earl of Cardigan) as to canteens, he must say that he believed that vast improvement had resulted from the improved regulations which had been issued respecting them; it would however, be necessary to carry out the regulations with the utmost stringency. It was, however, quite an error to suppose that the late Government contemplated spending anything like a million and a half in the erection of public offices; but he thought the fact that there was, year by year, a very large sum of money expended in the actual hire of rooms for the transaction of the public business, was a sufficient justification for the demand which had been made with respect to the erection of proper public offices, and he was glad to see that the views of the noble Earl with respect to carying out necessary improvements were so much in accordance with his own. One evil which he was glad to see removed was, the practice of the married soldiers and their wives sleeping in the same rooms with the unmarried soldiers; and he thought

  809
  that the £40,000 voted by the House of Commons for the purpose of providing separate accommodation for those persons, had been the means of introducing a great improvement in the social condition of the men. The only reason why he had moved for the last paper alluded to, was that he had been requested by his noble Friend (Earl Grey), in a note, to do so; and he was the more inclined to do so, because he understood that the Government had no objection to its production. He was, however, fully impressed with the importance of the remarks made by the noble Earl at the head of the Government, and under these circumstances, he would move for the two first returns upon the paper; but would leave it to his noble Friend to take his own course hereafter with respect to the other.
  LORD DE ROSthought that great improvements were required in the guardrooms in almost all the barracks, so as to make them more airy. The condition of the guard-rooms was now extremely bad, and they were very imperfectly ventilated. If they were what they ought to be, a great improvement would take place in the health of the soldiers, and he thought it might be done at very little expense.
  THE MARQUESS OF BREADALBANEthought that it was necessary, above all things, to make some provision for increased barrack accommodation. The Report of the Commissioners on the Sanitary Condition of the Army proved beyond a doubt that great mortality existed in consequence of the present insufficient barrack accommodation, combined with other causes; and their Lordships would remember that, whilst they deliberated, the mortality was still going on. Unless Parliament lent their aid in the matter, the regulations issued by the Commander in Chief would never be able to afford a sufficient remedy to this evil.
  Motion, except as to the last Paper, agreed to.

  CHARITABLE GRANTS FOR EDUCATION.
  THE EARL OF POWIScalled the attention of the Noble Marquess the Lord President of the Council (the Marquess of Salisbury) to the rules by which moneys contributed by charities interested as landowners, although authorised by schemes of the Court of Chancery, or by the Charity Commissioners, were excluded from consideration as local contributions in respect of which educational grants were given. The Noble Earl was understood to refer to the fact that the trustees of a charity
  810
  estate in Shropshire had, under the direction of a scheme authorised by the Court of Chancery, expended certain sums of money upon the foundation of some schools; yet, when an application was made to the Committee of Privy Council for a grant, their contribution was not permitted to stand on the footing of a voluntary subscription, which formed, according to the rules, the basis for a Parliamentary grant. There were many charitable estates similarly situated, the Court of Chancery or the Charity Commissioners having empowered them to contribute to schools, but the contributions of which could not be met with corresponding Government grants. He did not see why there should be any distinction between property held by corporations of this sort and the property of individuals; both should be available for the purposes of education, and he hoped the subject would receive the earnest attention of the Committee of Council.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he was glad that the noble Earl had given him an opportunity of looking into this case. It appeared that about ten years ago the Court of Chancery issued a scheme directing that the proceeds of certain sales should, instead of increasing the allowances to certain aged persons, recipients of the charity, be employed in the foundation of schools. Subsequently, an application was made to the Committee of Council on Education for a grant in aid, but the applicants were informed that the rule on which Parliamentary grants were made was, that they should be given in aid of voluntary contributions; and he was sure his noble Friend would see, that where trustees were directed by the Court of Chancery to expend sums of money out of the proceeds of certain estates in the building of schools, they could not be considered as voluntary contributions on their part. The subject was, no doubt, one that required attention, and he might be permitted to hope that the allusion now made to it would lead to some modification, but he was not prepared to express any decided opinion on a subject which had been so lately brought under his notice. All he could now say was, that the matter would receive the fullest consideration at the hands of the Government.
  EARL GRANVILLEquite agreed that nothing would be more desirable than the introduction of improvements into the administration of charities; but he warned the noble Marquess that the question was one of enormous difficulty. As it seemed to him,

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  the only sound test of a charity, for the purpose of obtaining a Parliamentary grant for educational purposes, was the voluntary contributions which it obtained; because, not only did those contributions show that such a charity was in favour with the public, hut they offered a guarantee that the management of the school would be properly looked into; but he admitted that it did seem hard, when money was subscribed by a charity having landed property, that it should not be met by a corresponding grant from the public purse, just as was the contribution of private individuals. Some amelioration might be made with respect to particular cases in which charities were the subscribers; but the general principle was a sound one, and it would be most unwise to interfere with it.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYassured the noble Earl that he had no intention of interfering with the general principle.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Half-past Ten o'clock.