Sitting of 19 March 1858

MINUTES,
PUBLIC BILLS.—3° Marine Mutiny; Militia Act Continuance; Commons Enclosure.
ASSIMILATION OF THE ENGLISH AND COLONIAL LAW.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HORSFALLsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary for the Colonies whether, seeing the great inconvenience which arises from the existence of Dutch, Spanish, and French Laws in various of our Colonial Possessions, the time has not arrived when the attempt may be made to assimilate the Laws of our Colonies to those of the Mother Country?
  LORD STANLEYsaid, that no doubt there did exist a great diversity between the laws which prevailed in different portions of the British empire; no doubt also that diversity gave rise to considerable practical inconvenience in this country, but possibly also in the Colonies; at the same time, however, he could not hold out to his hon. Friend any hope that the Imperial Government would attempt to remodel the laws in the Colonies, and establish a uniform system of law throughout the British, empire. Any such attempt, if made by the Imperial authority, would create in the Colonies concerned a feeling of great dissatisfaction and great discontent. In most cases, if not in each case, where the Colony formerly belonged to a Foreign Power, and came into the possession of the British Crown, a pledge was given to the inhabitants of the colony that they should continue to enjoy their own institutions and their own laws. Although he did not say that those institutions and laws belonging to a former time were inviolable

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  and for ever binding on this country, yet there were strong arguments against any interference with them by the Imperial authority. There had been some special cases in which it had been thought necessary to interpose by the Imperial authority; but, as a general rule, the matter had been left to the various local Legislatures. The Government of this country had always felt confident that in the lapse of time, and with the increased trade and increased intercourse with the rest of the British empire, English habits and English ideas would be introduced into our Colonies, as they already had been to a considerable extent in Canada and the Cape of Good Hope, and one result of that would be, that ultimately, although not at present, there would be established throughout the British empire a uniform legal system, free from practical difficulties. But in the meantime we were bound to consult the feelings and convenience of the inhabitants of the Colonies as well as our own; for, like ourselves, they were attached to the laws and institutions under which they had been brought up; and whatever might be the advantages—and he did not deny that they would be considerable—of a uniform system of law prevailing throughout the British empire, those advantages would be dearly bought if purchased at the expense of the loyalty and good will of any of the Colonies subject to British rule.

FAIRS AND MARKETS (IRELAND)—GRAND JURY (IRELAND).

  QUESTION.
  MR. MACARTNEYsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in the event of the Fairs and Markets (Ireland) Bill and the Grand Jury (Ireland) Bill, now on the table of the House, being-withdrawn, he will be prepared to introduce a Bill or Bills upon the same subjects after the Easter recess?
  LORD NAASsaid, it was his intention to postpone the Bills alluded to by the hon. Gentleman until after Easter, and he would then state what course the Government intended to take with regard to them.

CAPTURE OF DELHI—ISSUE OF MEDALS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary for War whether it is in contemplation to issue Medals to commemorate the capture of Delhi to all those engaged in that memorable siege?
  GENERAL PEELsaid, it was in contemplation to give a decoration to those engaged in the capture of Delhi, but he would be able to give a more satisfactory answer to the question on Monday.
  On the Motion that the House at its rising adjourn until Monday,

EDUCATION REGULATIONS (ARMY) INDIA.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. FAGANsaid, he rose to call the attention of the Secretary to the Board of Control to the army regulations made by the Governor General in India in Council in 1855, which requires that the children of soldiers over four years of age should be sent to the regimental schools in order to entitle such soldiers to draw for each child subsistence money of 5s. per month; and to ask whether, during the last year, any modification or alteration of that regulation has been made so as to allow the Roman Catholic soldiers now serving in India, who conscientiously object to send their children to these regimental schools, to have them educated in schools of their own faith without the forfeiture of their subsistence money; and to ask, further, if no such modification has been made, whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's present Government to afford that just relief to the consciences of the Roman Catholic soldiers now serving their country in India. He had given notice of similar questions last summer; but before they were asked the news of the mutiny arrived, and at the request of the right hon. Gentleman, who was then President of the Board of Control, he did not press them. He did not know what had occurred since, and could well understand that the mind of the right hon. Gentleman might have been so pre-occupied that he had forgotten the subject. Now, however, they were assured by the noble Earl at present at the head of the Board of Control that the mutiny was nearly suppressed, and he therefore thought that the time had now come when no injury to the public service could be done by bringing the subject forward. To understand his questions the House must be informed that every soldier serving in India was entitled to draw subsistence money at the rate of 5s. per month for each of his children; and that there were at almost every military station Roman Catholic schools of great efficiency, indeed, nearly equal to those which were to he found in

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  this country. In 1854 the celebrated Education despatch was sent from this country by the Court of Directors, establishing a system of education in India on much the same plan as was established in Ireland. In the following year Lord Dalhousie, anxious that the children of soldiers serving in India should have the advantage of the great system of education established under that despatch, drew up certain army regulations, among which was one providing
  "That all children being above four years of age for whom the Government subsistence allowance is drawn, are required to attend the school regularly, unless prevented by sickness, failing which the allowance is forfeited."
  These regulations were published in the Madras Presidency, but he did not know whether they had been applied also to those of Bengal and Bombay. What had been the result in Madras? Roman Catholic soldiers, who could not conscientiously send their children to the Government schools during the hours of religious instruction, had been obliged to give up their subsistence money, amounting in some cases to 25 s. or 30 s. a month. It was true that there was a regulation that the children of Roman Catholic soldiers would be allowed to absent themselves at the time when religious instruction was afforded, provided their parents signified in writing to the schoolmaster or mistress their wish to that effect. But practically that regulation was a nullity. It might do very well in Ireland, where public opinion could be brought to bear upon it, and where there were Commissioners of Education to protect the religious rights of Roman Catholic children; but everybody acquainted with regimental discipline knew that a private soldier could not refuse to send his children to the regimental school, especially when it happened that his commanding officer was a person of strong religious feelings on the Protestant side. He understood that in point of fact the regimental schools in India were essentially, apart from the question of religious teaching, Protestant institutions, with Protestant books, and Protestant masters and mistresses, so that the Roman Catholic soldiers could not without great sacrifices, including the deprivation of the sacraments of their Church, send their children to them. The result was that they were deprived of that subsistence money which he maintained was their right. It was proper the House should know that the
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  number of Roman Catholic soldiers in India amounted to nearly one-half of the entire force. For the future, the European troops would be considerably increased, and he asked whether it was right that such a regulation as that he had quoted, though intended for the best purposes, should be continued? He hoped that the Secretary to the Board of Control would give him a satisfactory answer; if not, it would be his duty at some future period of the Session to direct attention again to a question of such vital importance to a largo portion of the soldiers serving in India. The hon. Gentleman concluded by putting his question.
  MR. BAILLIE: The inquiry of the hon. Member for Cork embraces two questions. First, he asks whether, during the last year, any modification or alteration of the regulation to which he has referred has been made, so as to allow Roman Catholic soldiers, now serving in India, who conscientiously object to send their children to the regimental schools, to have schools of their own? No alteration has been made in those regulations; but the hon. Member does not seem to be aware that those regulations of the Government of India are the same, word for word, as the regulations for the British army in this country. That regulation to which he referred seems to me to meet completely the case of which he complains. Before reading it, however, I may state to the House that the hon. Member has stated quite correctly that those soldiers who receive subsistence money of 5s. a month for their children have it on condition of sending their children to school; and I suppose he does not object to that. The regulation of the Governor General on the subject, which is, as I have said, copied word for word from the regulations of the British army for this country, is as follows:—
  "The children of Roman Catholic soldiers, or of soldiers dissenting from the Church of England, will be allowed to absent themselves at the time at which religious education is given, provided their parents signify their wish in writing to the schoolmaster or schoolmistress; but they must attend at the opening of the school."
  The religious education commences at the beginning of the day, and the Roman Catholic children are thus not required to attend school until that portion of the instruction is concluded, and they then come in solely for secular instruction. That is the regulation at present, and I do not

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  know that there is any intention of altering it.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, he had had conversations with Roman Catholic soldiers, who represented the existing regulations as imposing upon them the most intolerable grievance. The comfort and the promotion of the soldier depended upon his obtaining the goodwill of his superior. It was, therefore, "a sham" to tell a soldier in a regiment, where there was a proselytizing colonel or major, that he might withdraw his children from the religious education which they favoured. There was no human being so dependent on the caprice of another as a private soldier in the army. The present regulations did not protect the Roman Catholic soldiers, and they ought to be modified.

COMMISSIONS IN THE ARMY.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. BAGWELLsaid, he rose "to bring before the House the subject of certain parties professing to obtain Commissions in the Army without purchase or examination, by raising men for Her Majesty's Service." Since he brought this subject before the House on a former evening he had received several communications from persons complaining that commissions in the army were given without examination. There was no branch of the public service of which the people were more justly jealous than the administration and patronage of the army. In The Times of that morning—a journal which both led and followed public opinion—there was an article on General Havelock, of whom the writer said "He had not attained to high rank or high command, for he had no family influence nor political interest at his back;" and "It seemed pretty certain that he had reached the limits of any advancement possible under the circumstances of this peculiar case." That showed the state of public opinion on the question of the advancement in the array. He held in his hand a letter from Mr. Galbraith, a Fellow of Trinity College, Dublin, and one of the most distinguished scholars in Ireland, complaining of the want of a proper competitive examination for the scientific branches and higher grades of the service; and upon the same point he would just allude to a letter in The Times of that morning. The particular case which had directed his attention to the subject of commissions in the army might he briefly stated. Some time ago a young gentle-
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  man, a friend of his, saw the following advertisement in The Field, a newspaper likely to attract young men fresh from Eton:—
  "The Army.—Commissions without purchase. —Young gentlemen are now permitted to raise 100 men for the army, and thereby obtain without purchase or examination an ensigncy in the Line. Those who have obtained their orders or wishing to do so will study their interests by applying by letter, in the first instance, to Captain Hunt, 3, Montague Place, Islington, London. Militia aspirants will be attended to."
  Upon application by letter being made to Captain Hunt, the following communication was received:—
  " 3, Montague Place, Islington, London,
  March 3.
  "Dear Sir, — If you are under twenty-three years of age, I shall, I have little doubt, be enabled to get you a cornetcy in the cavalry without examination. In the first instance you must lodge at the army agents a stipulated sum, to be paid over to me upon your name appearing in the Gazette. No money required before.
  "Procure a certificate of your birth, a certificate of your education and moral conduct from your schoolmaster, a certificate as to what religion you are from your clergyman, two or three of the most influential testimonials you can procure regarding your respectability, &c. When you procure these call upon me by Friday evening. It must be by Friday evening at furthest, as I leave for the Lancashire recruiting district— say, seven o'clock on Friday evening."
  Captain Hunt subsequently called upon the young gentleman and took him to the office of Messrs. Armstrong, 2, Russell Court, St. James Palace, by whom the following advertisement had been inserted in The Times:—
  Army, Militia, and East India Company's Service. Gentlemen desirous of entering any of the above services, or of effecting exchanges in any of them, may receive full information and assistance to accomplish their wishes from Messrs. Armstrong and Co., 2, Russell Court, St. James Palace, who can also furnish 100 men for gentlemen qualified to obtain ensigncies in the Line."
  At the office of Messrs. Armstrong he was required to fill up an application to the authorities for leave to raise fifty men for the Cavalry; and he was then taken down by Captain Hunt to the Horse Guards. He was left alone in one of the lobbies connected with the Commander in Chief's office, and Captain Hunt upon his return stated that he had had an interview with some person whom he did not name. They then proceeded to the office of General Wetherall, where the same scene took place. After a few days an answer was returned from the Horse Guards to the effect that they would not permit this young gentleman to raise men, and would

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  not avail themselves of his services. The young gentleman then went to Messrs. Armstrong, and they said, "It is not of the least consequence; we expected that you would be refused; but we will get you your commission—here is a letter saying so." This was a letter from Captain Hunt to the following purport:—
  "Patten Arms, Sunday, Warrington.
  " Dear—,—I send my Friend Stringer to London to complete our agreement. He is my partner, and empowered to act for me. Loose (sic) no time, as the recruiting will be very slack, as soon as agriculturists commence their farm operations. Drop me a line as soon as you hear from Ireland. My reason for naming an additional £50 was that we might be enabled to give a greater inducement to recruits than other fellows who are in the field here, and thus give you the first choice of a regiment."
  Well, the following letter was received from Messrs. Armstrong:—
  "2, Russell Court, St. James's Palace,
  March 9.
  "Dear Sir,—As we shall make the application in the proper quarter in order to receive the permission to raise fifty men for the cavalry and thus obtain a cornetcy, we beg you will have the deposit made at our bankers, according to the arrangement we made with you.
  "We trust that you will pardon our reminding you of the necessity of complying with our conditions, as we have to make ourselves responsible to other parties."
  He (Mr. Bagwell) came to London at that time, and the young gentleman, having sent to him, he went to the office of the Messrs. Armstrong; and, this part of the business resting on his own testimony, he was ready to state on his honour as a Member of that House,-or on his oath before the tribunals of the country, the propositions made by those gentlemen. There was no disguise on his part whatever, and he asked them how it was to be done. They said, "It is no matter how the tiling is to be done; we will get fifty men and a commission for your nephew; as soon as the commission is got you will pay £550, and we shall not require one shilling from you before." He asked whether they would apply to Sir Charles Yorke or to General Wetherall, and they did not seem to like the application to either of those authorities; and he then wrote to say that he would have nothing more to do with the transaction; upon which he received the following letter:—
  "2, Russell Court, St. James's Palace,
  March 12.
  "Messrs. Armstrong and Co. have received Mr. Bagwell's letter, declining to accept the proposal they had made to Mr. —. Messrs. Arm strong would suggest the propriety of Mr. Bagwell
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  cautioning his ward not to enter into arrangements entailing a vast amount of trouble and expense on those with whom he is in treaty, unless he be prepared to carry out his proposals. It was fortunate that Messrs. Armstrong did not rely solely on promises, or they might have been seriously compromised in high quarters, and feel greatly indebted to Mr. Bagwell for having saved them from the dilemma."
  He then received on Thursday last the following letter from Captain Hunt:—
  "Pattern, Arms, Warrington, Lancashire.
  "Dear Sir,—Having known you some years ago, and having enjoyed myself frequently on your beautiful grounds at Marlfield, besides having been in communication with your ward about raising men for his commission, I beg to inform you that you have made some grave errors in your misstatements in your address to the House. What could your object have been in standing between your ward and his commission? Surely you are not so ' verdant' as not to know that in London money is everything, and that for money properly applied, money I say, mind you, properly applied, any desire can be gratified. Now, Sir, if you are disposed to forward your ward's wishes, I repeat — what has been already told you—that for £550 I will procure him fifty men, and thus entitle him to a commission in the cavalry, and will also furnish him with two first-class chargers for £220.
  "Yours faithfully," DE VERE HUNT.
  "It may be well to acquaint you that I possess the highest influence in very high quarters, and to impress upon you that I require no money, not one shilling until Mr. —shall have been gazetted. You are at perfect liberty to publish this letter."
  The gravamen of the matter was this— that here was a man, who in one letter signed himself as a captain in the recruiting service, who went to public offices, went through all the forms, and stated that he had authority to get commissions for sums under the regulation price. He (Mr. Bagwell) applied the other night to the right hon. and gallant General at the head of the War Department (General Peel), and he expected that some notice would have been taken of these agents; but no notice, as far as he was aware, had been taken of the matter since. It struck him that the whole affair might be a mere swindle; yet he did say that when people advertised themselves as army agents, and went through the form of going to the proper authorities, some notice ought to have been taken of the matter by the authorities at the Horse Guards, in order that a stop might be put to these proceedings. If that had been done when he first mentioned the subject in that House the House might probably have been spared the present lengthy appeal; but when it was stated over and over again by these people that they could procure these commissions, by which representation the public were

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  probably gulled of their money, he thought it was a grievous error on the part of those who stood in a position of high authority not to take any notice of the matter. If there was one thing more than another necessary in the administration of the Army it was, not only that no irregular applications such as he had alluded to should be tolerated, but the administration should be above all suspicion. He should be ready, if necessary, to move for a Committee in order to prove before it all that he had stated; and if a stop should be put to these proceedings, and to robbing young gentlemen of their money, he should consider that, at all events, he had done some good. If he had let the matter rest, he did not think he should have been performing his duty as a parent, magistrate, or Member of that House. He left the matter now in the hands of the House, but at the proper time, if the reply he should receive from the Government should not be satisfactory, he should be prepared to move for a Committee to inquire into and report to the House upon the alleged system of granting commissions in the army, without purchase or examination, upon the condition of bringing a certain number of recruits for Her Majesty's service.
  COLONEL KNOXsaid, that before the right hon. General the Secretary for the War Department answered the statement just made, he wished to express his opinion that the House were much indebted to the hon. Member for Clonmel for having brought the subject before them. There could not be a more scandalous system than that which appeared to have been adopted. He did not know by whom it was introduced, but it was ruining the service; and every word stated with regard to those agents he knew to be true. They were going on with this trading with commissions under the sanction of the War Department. He did not blame the present Government; for it was carried on long before they came into power, but it was a nefarious system. An education test had been laid down for young gentlemen entering the army; they had to go before examiners, and their names were placed on a list for commissions according to rotation. They often waited until they were too old to enter the service; while commissions were given to men who were allowed to raise fity men for the cavalry, and one hundred men for the infantry, without any educational test whatever. The men having that permission went to these agents,
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  and the jobbing which went on at the offices of the agents was beyond all belief. He thought it discreditable to a country like this that young men should be brought into the army without that test which had been laid down as the basis upon which young gentlemen should enter the service. He hoped the head of the War Department would take very strong measures to put a stop to these proceedings.
  GENERAL CODRINGTONthought the hon. Member for Clonmel ought to have inquired further before bringing this case before the House. Had he done so, he would have found that transactions such as that of which he complained might be made the subject of public advertisement, but that, in the end, the promises they made turned out to be unfounded. However, these things were not done by the regular army agents who were authorised by Government, and the proper distinction ought to be drawn between those gentlemen and persons who entered into the bargains complained of. These latter persons offered to get commissions for a larger sum of money. [Mr. BAGWELL: No, but smaller.] He meant that they procured the necessary number of men by giving a larger bounty than the recruiting sergeant, and so interfering with the regular recruiting for the army. This was, however, a matter with which the War Department was in no way connected. The persons who published those advertisements, and made those promises, had no official authority to do so.
  GENERAL PEEL: I trust the House will believe that the Government are anxious to afford every information in respect of the Orders issued by the Horse Guards and the War Department. I am now in a position to give a fuller explanation to the hon. Gentleman than I was when he first mentioned this matter. The date of the circular which originated the granting of the commissions, to which the hon. Gentleman has more particularly referred, is 1st September, 1857. It will be in the recollection of the House, that in the month of August last year almost every available regiment had been sent from this country to India, and the moment was one of great pressure for raising additional troops. His Royal Highness the Commander in Chief, with the consent of the noble Lord then at the head of the War Department, issued the circular to which I have just referred. That circular was printed, and made known throughout the kingdom. It announced

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  the adoption of the principle of giving commissions without an examination, on the condition of the applicant raising a certain number of men. But the House should remember that this was an exceptional case. There was a large and sudden drain of troops; and some new measure became necessary in order to obtain a sufficient number of recruits for the requirements of the service. The result has been this: that whilst, during the whole year 1855, only 33,000 men were raised, 36,000 have been raised during the last six months. This order, whether a good or a bad one, was made perfectly known to the public. The conditions it prescribed were these: That any person who was a candidate for raising this number of men should, in the first place, present himself to the Adjutant General in England, to Lord Seaton in Ireland, or to Lord Melville in Scotland. On obtaining the sanction of one of those authorities to his raising the men, he was to produce certificates of his baptism, of his moral character, and to comply with certain other prescribed forms; but he was not to be subjected to that examination which other young gentlemen entering the army in the ordinary way were obliged to pass. Having obtained permission from the Horse Guards to raise a certain number of men, he was not to make use of the services of the recruiting sergeant, but was to report himself to the officer in the district in which he proposed to raise the recruits. He had to bring the men to this officer, who gave him credit for them; and as soon as the required number were enlisted, the officer reported this fact to the Horse Guards, and the gentleman got the commission. The consequence of this circular was, that a great many gentlemen applied for permission to raise men, and these candidates were taken from the list exactly in the order in which they applied; and no person, by any possibility, could have obtained through an agent permission to raise men. But, having obtained the permission from the proper authority, the question arose how to raise them. There, I have no doubt, the system of agency which has been referred to commences. "Get your permission to raise the men, then lodge the sum of money we require, and we shall raise the men." No doubt that was the substance of the agreement with those various agents. Many of these young gentlemen who applied for, and obtained, permission to raise men, would no doubt
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  have been unable of themselves to do so. They must employ some agent; and the House will see that unless those agents gave more bounty than the recruiting sergeant they would have very little chance of getting recruits in preference to him. The amount of money to be supplied by the candidate for a commission is, therefore, a mere matter of arrangement between himself and his agent, and is confined merely to the number of men, and not to the obtaining the commission for money; for these commissions cannot be obtained by purchase, and that, when obtained, they have no money value, for the recipients have no power of selling them. The power of selling such commissions depends entirely upon the length of time for which the officers who receive them remain in the service, and permission to sell can only be obtained after service for a certain number of years. I can only say, on the the part of the military authorities, that nothing can have been more open than their conduct, and they were most anxious that any inquiry which may be considered necessary shall be instituted with regard to persons who advertised that they were able, for a certain sum of money, to obtain commissions. There is no authority for such statements, and the arrangements are mere private bargains between the agents and these young men, of which the Horse Guards have no knowledge. With regard to the particular case brought forward by the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell), Messrs. Armstrong stated that that gentleman's nephew, being a candidate for a cornetcy, and having failed in his examination applied to the firm; that they replied, "Get the proper authority from the Adjutant General, lodge £550 in your own name at our banker's, and we will endeavour to get you the men." Messrs. Armstrong assert that they never undertook, or pretended to undertake, to obtain commissions; but that all they said was, "First obtain your authority from the Adjutant General, and the raising of the men is a matter of bargain between you and ourselves." I am, however, able to inform the House that the system under which these proceedings have taken place no longer exists. The Government consider that there is not now such a pressure for troops as justifies its continuance, although, when it was originally adopted, it undoubtedly afforded a just and proper means of obtaining recruits.
  Mr. BAGWELLwished to add that

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  when a reply was received from the Horse Guards refusing permission to his nephew to raise men for Her Majesty's service, the agents said, "We expected that answer; but no matter; we will get you the order to raise the men, and you shall have your commission." He (Mr. Bagwell) saw the agents on Thursday, when they told him, "We shall have the order for your nephew to raise the men on Tuesday; on getting that order we will raise the men, and when your nephew's name is in the Gazette you will pay over to us £550."
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid he did not understand the hon. Member for Clonmel to accuse the Government of countenancing the system to which he had called attention; but he (Viscount Bury) wished to know whether there were no means of preventing persons from holding out these inducements which frequently occasioned very serious inconveniences to young men who were desirous of obtaining commissions. He was able to confirm the statement of the Secretary for War as to the non-complicity of the Horse Guards in these proceedings. The son of a constituent of his, who had been reading for a commission, was advised to apply to a gentleman who called himself a captain, but who he believed was not a captain at all, who said he could raise the requisite number of men and obtain a commission on payment of £450. Upon this the young gentleman left off reading, although he was to have been examined next month. The agent or captain told him that as he could raise the 100 men and obtain the commission, it would be quite unnecessary to continue his studies. However, since the hon. Member for Clonmel had brought the subject under the notice of the Secretary for War the captain informed the young gentleman that a new order had been issued, that preference was to be given to applicants who had passed their examination, and therefore advised him to resume his reading. But the examination was to take place next month. He (Viscount Bury) had yesterday called with this young man upon Sir C. Yorke, who repudiated all knowledge of the proceeding; so, of course, the Horse Guards had nothing to do with the matter, which was one entirely between the young man and the gentleman who had deceived him; and Sir Charles very sensibly advised the young gentleman to resume his studies. The £450 had not been paid; but the inconvenience to this young man was that he had lost three months' reading, and, as the examination took place next
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  month, it was not improbable that he would be unable to pass. He (Viscount Bury) had mentioned this case to show that army agents were not the only persons engaged in these practices.
  VISCOUNT GODERICHexpressed his gratification at the statement of the hon. and Gallant General, the Secretary for War, that an end had been put to the system to which the hon. Member for Clonmel had called attention. One result of the plan clearly was that young men who were unable to pass the examination, or who did not like to continue their studies, had means open to them of obtaining commissions. No doubt, the theory upon which the system was established was that persons possessing local influence in particular districts would be able to obtain recruits, who might not otherwise be induced to enter the service, in consideration of which they should themselves receive commissions. The fact seemed to be, however, that young gentlemen in the position he had described had resorted to agents, who had gone, if he might so say, into the man-market, and had competed with the recruiting sergeant. He (Viscount Goderich) did not believe, however, that under this system a single man had been induced to enter Her Majesty's service who would not have done so in the ordinary course of recruiting, and he hoped some assurance would be given that such a system would not be re-established.

THE RECENT RIOTS IN DUBLIN.

  QUESTION.
  THE O'DONOGHUEbegged to ask the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Lord Naas): Whether the statements which have appeared in certain Irish newspapers, alleging that mobs have paraded the public streets of the city of Dublin (on Saturday last), in some instances breaking the windows of police stations and of other places, molesting peaceable inhabitants, forming party processions, and committing other outrages, have taken place? Whether any measures have been adopted by the Irish Government for the punishment of such offenders, and for the future repression of similar offences? He would give the noble Lord a piece of information which was, perhaps, not altogether new to him—namely, that attempts were being made in Ireland, by parties interested, to gather from these unfortunate occurrences the materials for a religious agitation. He hoped the Government, if for their own interest only

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  would take precautions in order to prevent any foundation being given for such an agitation.
  LORD NAAS: With regard to the case to which the hon. Member for Kerry has called attention, it is quite true that a riotous assembly took place in Dublin on Saturday night—the day after the unfortunate collision between the students of Trinity College and the police. Subsequently I had an interview with the Provost of Trinity College, and he assured me there was every reason to believe that in the assemblage which congregated on Saturday night, very few of the students of Trinity College took a part. The assemblage was a mob, who paraded though the streets in a riotous manner; but the amount of injury done to the property of the citizens was confined to the breaking of four panes of glass in one of the police stations. Three or four persons were arrested by the police; but it was not found necessary to inflict any punishment, and most of the parties taken into custody were discharged by the magistrates on Monday morning. I am happy to say that since then the peace of the city has been preserved, owing to the precautions taken by the Government. No doubt very great excitement has prevailed in Dublin since the unfortunate occurrence at the College, but I am glad to think that that excitement is fast dying away. Since I came into the House this evening, I have received a telegraphic despatch, stating that the city is now perfectly quiet, and that there has been no further disturbance. I can assure the hon. Member that it is the intention of the Government to have a full inquiry into the circumstances connected with that unfortunate occurrence at the College, and that no effort will be spared to prevent the excitement from taking a party or sectarian character. Their only desire in the matter is to do equal justice to all parties.

INCUMBERED ESTATES COURT— THE DUBLIN RIOTS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. DE VEREsaid, he rose to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland to state the intentions of the Government in relation to the Incumbered Estates Court, and especially whether it is intended to make permanent the system for sale of incumbered estates, and to extend the benefit of the system to unincumbered estates. He thought no Irish gentleman who had witnessed the
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  operation of this Act could have any doubt as to the benefits which the country had derived from it, or could doubt that it was unjust and unfair to those who wished to sell unincumbered estates that they should find their market spoilt by the existing system for the sale of incumbered estates.
  LORD NAAS: In reply to the question of the hon. Member for Limerick, I can only repeat the answer which I gave the other night to another hon. Member—that the question, which is a most important one, is under the consideration of the Government. Either I or my right hon. Friend the Attorney General for Ireland will be prepared, at the earliest possible opportunity after Easter, to say what are the intentions of the Government with respect to the Incumbered Estates Court. As I said the other night, we propose, if possible, to bring in a permanent measure during the present Session; but if we find that we cannot do this, it is our intention to introduce a Bill to continue the court for a year.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALD MR. J. D. FITZGERALD, though not at all desirous to press the Government for any premature decision on the subject of the Incumbered Estates Court, could not help saying that the answer given by the noble Lord was not perfectly satisfactory. The question was one of absorbing interest in Ireland. The powers of the Court expired in July next, and it was subject to another casualty, for if this Session of Parliament should terminate in the interval, the Court would fall to the ground. Now, the institution was one from which Ireland had derived advantages scarcely to be overestimated; and the question put by his hon. Friend, (Mr. De Vere) did not in any way press the Government to state the details of any measure, but only to inform the House what the principle of their policy was to be—namely, whether the system was to be perpetuated and extended so as to include unincumbered estates. In reply the noble Lord simply said, that some time after Easter the Government would state the course they intended to pursue. Now, the subject was one which had occupied the attention of the House year after year, which had been fully canvassed and discussed, and he did not think it was unreasonable even now to ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Walpole) to state what the policy of the Government was, if they had resolved on any. The anxiety felt on this question in Ireland was extreme. Apprehensions were enter-

  439
  tained lest by some casualty this valuable institution should be allowed to perish; and the effect of the communications which reached him almost daily on the subject was, that a continuance Bill would not, under the circumstances, be deemed satisfactory. The view of the late Government was, that the two recommendations of the Committee of 1856, embodied in the first two Resolutions, should be carried out— namely, that the system should be perpetuated and its benefits extended, so that proprietors of unincumbered estates should be able to go into the market and have the advantage of offering to purchasers a statutable title. Had the late Ministry remained in office, it would probably have been his duty to lay on the table of the House a measure to this effect. Great anxiety was felt as to the intentions of the Government on this subject, and not unnaturally, in consequence of the avowed opinions of the present Lord Chancellor and the Attorney General for Ireland, who had both been steady opponents of the Incumbered Estates Court. The former right hon. Gentleman had declared that the system of giving Parliamentary titles was monstrous, unrighteous, and unjust, and that the measure would be ruinous to the Irish landed interest and fatal to the prosperity of the country; and in 1849 he did what he could to prevent the measure from becoming law, and he had since consistently opposed it. He might say the same for the present Attorney General for Ireland, who opposed in Committee two propositions for making the Court permanent and extending its action to unincumbered estates. Under such circumstances —these having been the opinions of the present Irish law officers—the country were doubly anxious to know, what would be the course taken by the Government, He did not seek to ascertain from the Government, so soon after their accession to office, in what shape they proposed to carry out their views in reference to the continuance of the Incumbered Estates Court; but he trusted he should receive from them some more satisfactory statement than that which he had just heard, as to whether it was their intention or not to perpetuate a system from which Ireland had derived so much advantage.
  MR. VANCEthought the hon. and learned Gentleman might have been satisfied with the answer which had been given by the noble Lord to the question which had
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  been put to him. The hon. and learned Gentleman was aware of the very short time Ministers had occupied their present seats in that House, and must also know that the Attorney General for Ireland—whose opinion on the subject it was necessary to take —had, for the last week or ten days, been engaged in the performance of his professional duties in the south of Ireland, prosecuting certain criminals for very serious offences. The hon. and learned Gentleman was exceedingly anxious to perpetuate the Incumbered Estates Court, and so was he (Mr. Vance); but it would be in the recollection of the House that the hon. and learned Gentleman had himself, not long ago, introduced a Bill to abolish that Court, and transfer its jurisdiction to the Court of Chancery. The hon. and learned Gentleman had also expressed a great desire that unincumbered properties in Ireland should be sold with an indefeasible title, the same as incumbered; but although he had been Attorney General for Ireland for several years, and had promised a measure of the kind, he had never introduced it. Irish Members had long felt anxious respecting this subject, and it certainly was a serious grievance that, whilst properties could be transferred and money borrowed with the utmost ease through the Incumbered Estates Court, gentlemen who had held estates from time immemorial experienced the greatest difficulty in doing either, in consequence of the competition which prevailed. He would merely further observe, that he thought it was going beyond the usual licence of opposition, when a Government had only just taken their places, to ask for the details of a measure of this description, which could not possibly be arranged until the law officers of the Crown had had an opportunity afforded them of meeting and consulting with their colleagues in the Government.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, it was rather unusual, and certainly not very convenient, on the Motion for the adjournment of the House, to raise questions with regard to the particular nature and character of Bills which Government might or might not introduce, and as to what was the course they intended to take on those Bills, before the Government had had an opportunity of stating their views respecting them, and laying them upon the table of the House. With reference to the question which had been put by the hon. Gentleman opposite, he should have thought that, after it had

  441
  been answered by his noble Friend, it was unnecessary to carry the discussion further. He might, however, in reply to the observations of the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, be permitted to state that the Act of Parliament under the operation of which the Incumbered Estates Court now existed continued the existence of that court not only to the month of July next, hut till the end of the next ensuing Session of Parliament. But even if that were not the case, the hon. and learned Gentleman must be perfectly aware, both from the statement of his noble Friend (Lord Naas) that evening, as well as from what had passed upon a former occasion, that the Government had no intention whatever to allow the present Act to expire; but they did not feel themselves to be in a position, in the absence of the Attorney General, to lay before the House the exact nature of the measure in reference to the Incumbered Estates Court which they would be prepared to introduce. With regard to this Commission he wished the hon. and learned Gentleman to recollect that in 1856 there had been a great controversy on the subject; and that then the hon. and learned Gentleman made a proposition with reference to it totally different from that which he that evening appeared to advocate, inasmuch as he had sought to hand over its jurisdiction to several Vice Chancellors—a scheme against which the House of Commons had completely set its face. A Committee, indeed, had reported against that portion of the measure which the hon. and learned Gentleman had submitted to their notice, and had recommended the adoption of certain propositions entirely distinct from it in principle. The hon. and learned Gentleman had gone on to state that the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland had been the steady opponent of the Incumbered Estates Court Act, and had alluded in proof of that charge to the original introduction of a Bill upon the subject; leaving altogether out of consideration the circumstance that his (Mr. Walpole's) right hon. and learned Friend had placed his name upon the back of a Bill which had been introduced by the present Attorney General for Ireland, and the object of which was to establish a permanent system of Parliamentary titles to land. It was, under these circumstances, scarcely necessary, he trusted, to offer the House any further assurance that there was no danger that the system which had
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  been set on foot by the Incumbered Estates Court Bill would, under the auspices of Her Majesty's present advisers, be abolished, or that the Government would be found unwilling to extend the principle of granting a Parliamentary title to property which happened to be unincumbered. For his own part, he might observe that, having been a member of the Commission which had been appointed to investigate that important question in connection with property in England, and having subscribed his name to a Report recommending the extension of the principle of statutable title to England, he should he as anxious—perhaps more so—as any hon. Member in that House, if such a measure could be carried into effect, either in the sister country or in this, to advocate its introduction.
  MR. ELLICEquite concurred with the right hon. Gentleman opposite in thinking such discussions as that in which they were engaged extremely inconvenient. He might nevertheless be allowed to remark that he, as a member of the Commission of 1856, had felt it to be his duty to dissent from the views of his right hon. and learned Friend below him (Mr. FitzGerald), who desired to abolish the Incumbered Estates Court altogether, and, in conjunction with his right hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Sir James Graham), to object to the extension of the system of statutable title to unincumbered estates in Ireland, upon the ground that in taking that course they would be likely to interfere with the arrangements of another Commission which was engaged in dealing with that important question in relation to property in this as well as in the sister country.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDexplained that the Bill of 1856 was designed to carry out the recommendation of a Commission of which the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, the Master of the Rolls, the Solicitor General, himself, and others were members, to perpetuate the system of the Incumbered Estates Court, but to annex it to the Court of Chancery.
  MR. SLANEYexpressed his gratification at finding that it, was in contemplation to extend to England the system of granting Parliamentary titles to property.

  THE OATHS BILL.—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I may take this opportunity to state the course which I propose to take in reference to the Oaths

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  Bill, which stands for consideration on Monday next. My right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department (Mr. Walpole) asked me a few days ago whether I meant to introduce any Amendments upon the bringing up of the Report, and I then said I should move the insertion of some additional words in the preamble of the Bill. I have not, however, been enabled to come to any satisfactory conclusion with respect to those words, and I shall therefore abstain from making in the preamble the alteration to which I adverted. The only Amendment, I may add, which I intend to submit to the notice of the House is, that at the end of the oath, page 2 line 10, the words "directly or indirectly" should be omitted.
  Mr. COGANwas understood to say that it was the intention of an hon. and learned Friend of his (Mr. Deasy) to move an Amendment to the Bill similar to that which he had brought forward last year, embodying the principle that a uniform oath should be taken by Members of the Roman Catholic as well as of other religious persuasions.
  Motion agreed to.
  House at rising to adjourn till Monday next.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (£10,000,000) BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read; House in Committee.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported without Amendment.

  CUSTOMS ACTS.—COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  House in Committee.
  Upon the Motion of Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, the following Resolutions were agreed to:—
  "1. Resolved, That, in lieu of the Duties of Customs now chargeable on the undermentioned articles on their importation into Great Britain and Ireland, the following Duties shall be charged —namely, Bonnets of Felt, each 6d.; Manufactures of Caoutchouc, per lb. 2d.
  " 2. Resolved, That the Duties of Customs now-chargeable on the undermentioned articles, on their importation into Great Britain and Ireland, shall cease and determine—namely, Chloride of Lime; Platina Wire.
  " 3. Resolved, That, on and after the 5th day of April, 1858, the following Duties of Customs shall be charged on the articles undermentioned, on the importation thereof into the United Kingdom—namely, Stearine, the cwt., 3s. 6d.; Candles —namely, Stearine, the cwt., 3s. 6d."
  House resumed; Resolutions to be reported on Monday next.

PUBLIC HEALTH ACT (1848) AMENDMENT BILL.

  SECOND READING DEFERRED.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, that this was a measure of the late Government, and as he wished to have time to consider its provisions, he should move that the Order be postponed until Friday next.
  MR. PALKwished to say a few words with regard to this measure, which had been so constantly before the House and so constantly postponed. The Bill related to a subject than which there was none more important, or that required more consideration, and he hoped that his right hon. Friend, who would probably state on a future occasion upon what principle he intended to legislate in this matter, would clearly and emphatically inform the House that one provision of the Bill should go to the total and entire abolition of the Board of Health, and that all powers which were of a centralising character should be vested in the hands of some member of the Government, having a seat in this House, and responsible to it for the fulfilment of the duties of the department of which he would be the head.
  MR. SLANEYsaid, that as a member of the Health of Towns Commission, he had investigated the condition of many of the humble dwellings in densely populated districts, and he felt confident that there was no Bill of greater consequence to the welfare of the working classes than the one alluded to by the hon. Gentleman. He concurred with him, however, in thinking that the gentleman at the head of the Board of Health, ought always to have a seat in this House. Those provisions which enabled local bodies to carry out improvements in the drainage, cleansing, and supply of water in large towns were absolutely necessary; but he thought a clause should be introduced for preventing further interference with buildings, except the construction of such courts and alleys as had been found by experience, and had been reported by Commissions, to be inimical to the health and comfort of the humbler classes.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday next.

EDINBURGH, &c, ANNUITY TAX.

  LEAVE.
  MR. BAXTERmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish the Ministers' Money or Annuity Tax levied within the city of

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  Edinburgh, pariah of Canongate, and burgh of Montrose as vacancies occur among the present ministers, and to make provision for their successors.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, there was no objection on the part of Government to the introduction of the Bill. But the House was aware that the annuity tax was the chief source from which the clergy of Edinburgh derived their incomes, and any Bill which went to abolish it must provide something in the nature of an equivalent. It would be for the House and the Government hereafter to consider the details of the measure, and to judge whether the equivalent proposed was an adequate one or not.
  Leave given; Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. BLACK and Mr. BAXTER.
  The House adjourned at half after Six o'clock till Monday next.

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Lord Bishop of Cashel.
PUBLIC BILLS.—Ia Marine Mutiny; Militia Act Continuance; Commons Enclosure.
3a East India Loan.

EDUCATION—IRELAND.-QUESTION.

  THE NATIONAL SYSTEM.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDBrose to ask the noble Earl opposite, the head of Her Majesty's Government, the question of which he had given him notice, with respect to the course intended to be pursued by the Government in reference to the National System of Education in Ireland. In making this inquiry, nothing could be further from his views than to take any step that might have the effect of embarrassing the Government. It was with great regret he felt himself called upon, in the performance of a public duty, to allude to a subject which, he thought, had been set at rest. Unfortunately, there had recently fallen from a right hon. Gentleman in another place—a Minister of high influence—observations relating to the National System of Education in Ireland. Those observations, which were made on Monday last, had occasioned considerable alarm. As no announcement whatever had since been made, by the Government on the subject, he hoped that those words had fallen | in the heat of debate, without consideration or any intention of announcing any fixed determination of the Government. But, at the same time, it was undoubtedly supposed by the people of Ireland, from what had been uttered by the Minister to whom he was alluding, that it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government so far to alter the system of education of the poor in Ireland as to extend the grants to the Church schools in that country not in connection with the National System. He thought that nothing could be more injurious than such a proposition at the present
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  time. he would not then go into a description of the system of National Education, nor did he think it necessary to describe its effects; suffice it to say, it had been established for a considerable number of years, and under it upwards of 500,000 children were receiving a sound and efficient education. That system was working well. In his opinion it was one of the elements by which they might hope for the permanent prosperity and tranquillity of Ireland. He thought it would be a great misfortune, on many accounts, if such a system were at all disturbed by the Government; and it was impossible that any such change as was supposed to be in contemplation could be made without most seriously affecting the present established system. If schools other than those connected with the National System were to receive Parliamentary grants, the two classes of schools must either be in rivalry with each other, or the National System must be essentially modified to make it correspond with the Church Schools. He would not discuss the question whether the separate was or was not preferable to the united system; but the united system had been long established, and no change could be made without seriously affecting the social peace of Ireland. He sincerely hoped that the noble Earl at the head of Her Majesty's Government would state that they had not come to any determination of the kind. He could not believe that there was any intention on the part of the Government to disturb the National System. At any rate, he hoped that if they had any such question under consideration, that no actual decision upon the point had as yet been come to. He therefore begged leave to ask Her Majesty's Government what course they intended to pursue with respect to education in Ireland!
  THE EARL OF DERBYMy Lords, I have listened with much attention to the observations of the noble Marquess, and I think that he has misunderstood the remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Vice President of the Council of Education in another place; because undoubtedly no such determination as that supposed to have been announced has been come to on the part of the Government. I believe that whatever differences of opinion there may be in regard to the merits or defects of the present system of national education in Ireland, which has been now about a quarter of a century in existence, there is

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  no one, not even amongst the most eager opponents of it, who does not admit that in its practical working it has very materially increased the extent, and moreover has greatly improved the character of the education given to the people of Ireland. I admit, on my own part, I much regret first of all that as a system of united education, which was intended to he national, it has to a considerable extent failed in realizing our anticipations; and, in the next place, in consequence of religious scruples, (which I respect, though I cannot share them) the clergymen of the Church of England in Ireland have abstained from giving that support to the system which I think they might have done to the great advantage of those under their spiritual care. I regret also that in a portion of the schools themselves there should be an encouragement and support given to those who are opposed to the system on which they wore established, in the fact, that, contrary to the original intent, in the great bulk of the schools, not only is no religious education given, but no facilities even are given for separate religious instruction by ministers of different persuasions out of school hours. I think in the non-vested schools, as they are termed, the absence of any such facilities for religious instruction as was intended by the original scheme of the vested schools, has furnished a great handle to the opponents of the system. Nevertheless, with all those defects, I think it is most important that this system of Irish education should be maintained. Her Majesty's Government will not therefore be a party to anything which in their judgment would have the effect of impairing or altering that system. At the same time I must be permitted to say I do not concur in the opinion expressed by the noble Marquess, that this determination on the part of the Government wholly excludes us from considering the question whether there may not be consistent with the maintenance of this system, that means should be furnished of affording encouragement on the part of the State to those schools that are founded upon a different principle, even though to a certain extent that support may be in violation of the principle of the existing system. I say distinctly—and the principle was discussed in a Committee of this House some few years ago—and I regret that that Committee did not make any report—I think that the principle of giving some assistance to schools of a different character, and founded upon a dif-
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  ferent principle—a proposition which was not unfavourably entertained by the noble Earl opposite, the late President of the Council—I say, I think that such a principle may be consistently recognised. But I am prepared distinctly to say this—that Her Majesty's Government have come to no decision on that subject. Her Majesty's Government have, however, come to the decision not to imperil the existing system; and further, they have determined that no alteration shall be made in the distribution of the grant without first obtaining the assent and concurrence of Parliament.

THE INDIAN LOAN BILL,

  THIRD READING.
  LORD MONTEAGLEMy Lords, I have hitherto been unable to call the attention of the House to this very important Bill, from the desire I felt to have first been able to examine the Financial papers for which I moved before the adjournment, and which have not been distributed till within the last very few days. But being sincerely anxious that the Bill should pass without avoidable delay, I raised no objection to its progress to the second reading, nor do I mean to do so even on the present occasion. I cordially support the grant of an increased provision for the public service of India, and I shall give the same support to an extension of those powers, if such extension be hereafter required, an event which I cannot but consider as highly probable. Nor do I entertain a doubt but that the House of Commons will be swayed by the same motives. I am old-fashioned enough to consider the British Empire in India as one of the most wonderful and important possessions of the Crown. It raises our country in the estimation of all foreign states, and connects with the European dominions of Her Majesty an area and a population never before possessed or governed by any other power. Even if it could be shown that India creates a permanent balance against us, I could not agree to the suggestion that we should therefore be justified in treating our Eastern empire with unconcern. It would neither be true nor wise to do so. We are bound to India by the obligations of duty, a much stronger tie, to a country like ours, than any mere question of money profit and loss. We dare not throw India off, if we were unfortunately tempted so to do. We have contracted obligations to its 180 millions of people from which we have no escape. Those obligations must be fulfilled,

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  whatever may be the pecuniary sacrifices they entail upon us. The noble Earl over the way (Lord Ellenborough), on a former occasion expressed his regret that the House of Commons had reduced the Indian loan from ten to eight millions. If I considered that this reduction implied any unwillingness to contribute all that could be required to meet the necessities of India, I should participate in that regret. But I feel assured such could not have been the motive for the reduction made in the other House. Your Lordships should remember the peculiarity of the position in which Parliament is placed in respect to this Bill. Concurrently with this application for an authority to raise ten millions, a legislative measure has been announced to abolish the existing Government of India. The East India Company to whom by this Bill we are asked to confide the Imperial function of borrowing and of expending ten millions of money, has been, by another measure, served with notice to quit; or rather is left to await the execution of a capital sentence already pronounced. The present Indian Government will obtain the loan; a new Government, on the constitution of which Parliament has not as yet decided, will be intrusted with the expenditure of the sum borrowed. It was, therefore, thought expedient elsewhere (and in that opinion I heartily concur), to mark, by a reduction of the vote, that whilst Parliament was willing to sanction a loan for all that could be required to meet present necessities, it was imprudent and inconsistent with sound principles, to exceed that immediate demand, till we could see our way clearly to form a judgment whether the new Government of India were constituted on principles to make it deserving of confidence. This is the more necessary when the conditions of the proposed loan are considered. These conditions have not as yet been even adverted to, and many of your Lordships may be under the false impression that this Indian loan is identical in principle with the loans with which we have been but too familiar in our own home service, Such is not the case. A British loan can only be applied to certain specified services approved of by Parliament, and to which it is strictly appropriated. Thus the 19 Viet, c. 6, recites as the object of the loan, "the Supplies which have been cheerfully granted," and in 19 &, 20 Viet. e. 44, the proceeds of the bills and bonds authorized to be issued and sold under the Act are required to be paid into the Ex-
  406
  chequer to the account of the Consolidated Fund, being thus brought under the most rigid rules of responsibility, appropriation, and ultimate audit. No provision of an analogous kind is made in the Bill before us. It authorizes the borrowing of eight millions, but not one word is stated under what responsibility, for what objects, or where, these millions are to be expended. No limitation is even introduced, enacting that the loan shall be expended solely for the public service of India. It might be devoted to other purposes, without violating any one of the enactments of the present Bill. We have been informed that the Government claim very large repayments out of the funds to be borrowed, for stores furnished and advances made; yet no provision is made to recognise, or to secure, the discharge of these pressing obligations. I am not unprepared for the reply which I may receive to these remarks. I shall be told that I am not entitled to compare the strict practice of a constitutional Government, like that of England, with the practice of what must be considered to be at best a regulated despotism. This reply is, however, inconclusive, for I can point out precedents even of Indian loans, in which the more accurate system for which I contend has been adopted. Thus by 33 Geo. III. c. 47, s. 14, the subscriptions to the loan raised in 1793 are appropriated primarily to the reduction of the bond debt in Great Britain to a sum of £1,500,000, and are only made applicable as an ultimate trust to the discharge of other debts. By the 34 Geo. III. c. 41, the fund originally granted to pay off India bonds is permitted to be appropriated to the general purposes of the Company as circumstances may require." By 47 Geo. III., Sect 2, 41, £2,000,000 authorized to be borrowed, is appropriated "to the same purposes as the capital stock of the Company." Precedents like those, might have been advantageously adopted in the Bill now to be read a third time, which, on the contrary, leaves the House uncertain by what Government the eight millions granted are to be expended, and to what uses they may be applied.
  I rejoiced the other night to hear my noble Friend (Lord Ellenborough) speak so cheeringly of our military prospects. The past victories of our brave troops justify anticipations, which I trust may be realized by the event. But the military strength of a State should always be con-

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  sidered in connection with its credit and revenues, and though I do not wish to excite any unnecessary alarm on the subject of Indian finance, I cannot disguise from myself, whatever success we may expect in the field, that our Indian money prospects are but gloomy, and that a time will probably come when the Exchequer of England may be called on to assume a responsibility for some portion of the engagements of India. I, therefore, earnestly entreat your Lordships to look forward and examine this subject with prudent caution —to weigh well all future contingencies, and to apply yourselves carefully to the great question of the finances of India. Let us inquire whether the present or the past state of the resources of India—whether the peculiarities either of its income or of its expenditure, are such as to place us at our ease. I shall avoid the fallacy of reasoning and drawing general conclusions from what we are, I trust, justified in considering the exceptional case, of mutiny and revolt, and I shall, therefore, direct your Lordships' attention to the twenty-two years from 1834–5, to 1856–7. Now during this period, I find but seven years showing a surplus income, to sot off against fifteen years of deficiency. The seven years 1835, 1836, 1837, 1849, 1850, 1851, and 1852, show a surplus of £5,195.206, and the fifteen years (1834, 1838, 1839, 1840, 1841, 1842, 1843, 1844, 1845, 1846, 1847, 1848, 1853, 1854, 1855), a deficiency of £20,349,238. We have thus to deal with a deficit of £15,154,032, the balance between the income and expenditure of twenty-two years. Nor do I see much reason to expect that this state of things, which I find described in perfectly accurate, though somewhat fanciful diction, as "a chronic state of deficit" and "a dilapidated condition of finance," is likely to be set right by any improvement in our Indian revenue. I consider that revenue to rest on a most precarious basis. Take for instance the net revenue received in the year 1854–55. It amounted to £27,312,235. Of this no less an amount than £22,137,94S was collected under the following, three heads: Land, £16,419,000; Salt, £2,385,347; Opium, £3,333,601. Let us examine shortly how far the permanence of these sources of receipt can be relied on. We know that though the several strongly contrasted systems of land revenue have, in their turn, been subjects of high eulogy, each of them is now considered justly liable to serious
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  objections. It is admitted that a mistake was committed by that kind and generous man Lord Cornwallis, who, in making his permanent settlement, chiefly benefited the zemindar, or middle man, and gave no due consideration to the claims or interest either of the cultivators or of the real owners. In the Madras Presidency we have seen the Ryotwaree system with all its eccentricities of varying valuation, taxing the industry of the Ryot rather than the land itself, and, as has been proved to our horror and astonishment, collected, in too many cases, through the agency of torture. These atrocities have been practised, it is true, without the cognizance of the superior authorities of the Government; but they are all the more dangerous on that account, as being successfully concealed from those whose duty it was to detect and to punish. This is enough, independently of other evils, to condemn the Madras system, though that system has been, I might almost say, consecrated by the great name of Munro. Of the system practised in the newer settled districts, it appears that better hopes may be entertained, though few men are so sanguine as to believe in the practicability of its immediate introduction into Bengal and Madras. It is indeed suggested, and may perhaps be true, that by a reduction of land rents the total amount collected may be increased. This must be considered as, at best, but an experiment. It can only succeed slowly, if it succeeds to any considerable extent, not furnishing any certain or immediate relief to our financial wants.
  The next head of revenue is that of salt, which if not subject to the same perils as those which attend the land tax, is exposed to risks of its own. Let me entreat your Lordships to remember what took place in 1853. We were then precipitated into most hurried and inadvertent legislation. We passed the last India Act of 1853, under compulsion, and subject to protest. The Government would not allow us to complete our inquiries, or even to wait till our evidence was laid on the table. Still less were we given time to frame and present a report. But, nevertheless, the other House of Parliament acting with less consideration for India than their constituents would have approved, had the case applied to England, found time with what might almost he termed a rash generosity, to increase the salaries of their rulers, and to place in jeopardy the salt revenue of India,

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  in consideration to the interests of Cheshire, and of other English salt producing districts. A signal service was then rendered to India by the noble Earl opposite. The noble Earl (Lord Ellenborough) not contented with protesting against this somewhat selfish decision, induced your Lordships to reject the decision of the Commons by omitting the clause so imprudently adopted. Does such ill-considered financial legislation give us grounds for confidence that Indian finance will be discreetly managed by a distant Legislature which exhibited in 1853 so much carelessness for the interests of India? I am unwilling to go into the Opium case at any length, though sorely tempted to do so. But the question is too important to be altogether overlooked. Opium yielded in 1854–55 a net revenue of £3,333,000, and I believe this income is still increasing. But will the President of the Council of India deny that this revenue hangs by a thread? Who can affirm what may happen in China? If the Government of that Country should come to it3 senses, and substitute a moderate duty for its absurd prohibition, the Opium revenue of India is gone; the Poppy will be grown in China, and the Indian Treasury is made irretrievably Bankrupt. We have known one enlightened Governor, Keshen, who was called, as I remember, the Chinese Huskisson. But the Chinese need not rely exclusively on their home political market to furnish them with teachers of wisdom. We send them out an instructor in the person of our British consul at Hong Kong. Whatever differences exist in the value assigned to Sir John Bowring's services, as a statesman and a soldier, there is no doubt of his acquirements as a political economist. If he desires to persuade the Mandarins, we can hardly doubt but that he will be able to convince them of the folly of their existing laws, and of the necessity of abjuring their present faith and practice.
  I shall not trespass on your Lordships' time by any observations on the miscellaneous revenue of India, amounting in 1855–56 to a sum of £5,174,287. But I think I shall not be open to contradiction when I assert that it would be rash and over-sanguine to anticipate any considerable or certain improvement in our Indian finance, from an augmentation in the revenue receipts.
  Nor can we find more of consolation if we consider the present prospects of Indian expenditure. The existing amount
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  of Indian debt has been stated by Sir George C. Lewis at £68,000,000, and its annual charge at £2,829,000. The heaviest portion of this charge must be, at the present time, the military expenditure. Can the noble Earl opposite give your Lordships any approximate estimate of the increased expense of the military establishments of India likely to be required, as consequent upon the mutiny? Coming events cast most portentous shadows before. I have seen an estimate which raises the probable number of the Queen's troops in India to 92,000, or above 52,000 in excess of the present contingent. It is true that this may be accompanied by a reduction of the Native Forces. But is there any one among your Lordships who is at present prepared to state what will be the augmented expenditure, and what the saving of this change? I have already alluded to the great difficulties we are under from the unfortunate events, connected with the hasty renewal of the Charter in 1853. We now suffer from the want of information which that incomplete and unsatisfactory proceeding has occasioned, which leaves Parliament without the means of forming any well considered determination. Certain facts are, however, distinctly stated. We are informed that in 1857, the following funds were at the command of the East India Company. The borrowing powers of the Company amounted to £3,000,000; the cash account stood at £1,000,000; a similar sum of £1,000,000 was reserved in 3 per cents.; and £1,800,000 in exchequer bills. Since then we are told that "those resources have been called into requisition and are nearly exhausted." In the return made to the order of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and signed by Sir George Clarke, there appears the following statement of the cash balance in the Homo Treasury. On the 1st of January. 1858, the credit balance stood at £1,187,963; on the 1st of May, 1858, it is estimated at £859,958; but in May. 1859, the estimated deficit is calculated at no less a sum than £7,586,068. This suggests serious reflections.
  I am far from calling attention to these figures with the view of throwing difficulties in the way of the progress of the present Bill. On the contrary, they prove its necessity. But they do much more. They show us the obligation we

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  are under of considering another, and a much more important question to which they necessarily lead. I allude to the obligation existing, or which may hereafter exist, in case of a continuing deficiency in the finances of India, and the liability which such an event may cast on this country—a liability to supply means to meet such deficiency. This question does not arise as a necessary result of the loan now proposed, hut rather as the effect of another measure, which we are all aware is submitted to Parliament. Assuming that the measure about to be proposed by the Government involves the abolition of the East India Company, and the transfer of the territory and revenue of India to the Crown of England, I cannot, for the life of me, see how the Parliament of England which is to effect this mighty change can escape from the liabilities to which such revenue and territory are subject. The territories of India will necessarily cease to be held by a great Corporation in trust for the Crown —they will become the absolute possession of the Crown itself, and must be taken subject to all their burthens. I feel that this proposition is unpopular, I know that it is startling, and I therefore am bound to support it by authorities higher than my own. Even before such abolition of the Company was dreamt of, and before such transfer of Indian revenue and territory was suggested, this great question was opened to Parliament in the most distinct manner by no less important a person than Sir Robert Peel. In 1842, when that great statesman laid before the House of Commons his financial propositions, and recommended the strong measure of adopting an income tax in time of peace, he did not overlook the relations existing between the finances of India and of this country. On the 18th of March, 1842, he said:—
  "I refer to a subject which has of late occupied but little attention in the House. I refer to the state of Indian finance. I am quite aware that there may appear no direct or immediate connection between the finances of India and those of this country; but that would be a superficial view of our relations with India, which should omit the consideration of this subject. Depend upon it, if the credit of India should he conic disordered—if some great exertion should become necessary—then the credit of England must be brought forward towards its support; and the collateral and indirect effect of disorders in Indian finances would be felt extensively in this country."
  This was a serious warning, and the
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  words which then fell from the lips of the head of the Government were words of weighty import, particularly in times like the present, when I have shown you a continued decrease in the revenue, and a continued increase in the expenditure, of India. These words, it must also be remembered, were spoken whilst the Company still existed, governing India, subject, it is true, to the authority of the Board of Control, but possessing an indisputable right of applying Indian revenue. This state of things it is now proposed to set aside. If the Company were still to be permitted to exercise the jurisdiction and appropriate the revenue of India, as in 1842, it might be said in reply to any applications from the Company for British aid or guarantee, though it might not be wise or generous invariably to employ such an argument, "You are entrusted with the whole revenue of India, you have the power of applying it to the payment of Indian debt, and to the support of Indian Government, and being so entrusted, you cannot urge any claim whatever upon this country." The case will be widely different hereafter. But even in times past—I repeat it—if the revenue of India become deficient, and that Indian necessities could not be mot by Indian credit or increased Indian taxation, the austere refusal of British aid under circumstances which may easily be conceived, would neither be generous, wise, or even practicable. And if the pressure became extreme, this country would find itself compelled, in duty and in interest, to realise the prediction of Sir Robert Peel, and to bring forward its resources in support of India.
  Nor would such a course be unprecedented. Under very different circumstances, and before Parliament had interfered with the commercial and exclusive privileges of the East India Company, Parliament did not adopt the principles which have been avowed in our times. For instance, in 1810 (50 George III. c. 114.) Parliament granted to the Crown a sum of money in exchequer bills for the relief of the East India Company. This statute recites, "Whereas the East India Company at present labour, and have for some time past laboured, under difficulties for certain demands by creditors; and whereas it is expedient that a sum of money be advanced for the relief of the said Company:" and the Act proceeds to authorize the issue of one million and a half for In-

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  dian purposes. Two years subsequently, by the 52 George III. c. 125, a sum of £2,500,000 was advanced to the East India Company to enable them to discharge part of the Indian debt. This sum was deducted from the loan of £22,500,000 raised in 1812, and was directed to be applied "for the relief of the Company under existing circumstances."
  But I will assume that neither these precedents nor yet the authority of Sir Robert Peel existed, I shall contend with confidence that the argument with respect to the British responsibility becomes irresistible on the enactment of a statute abolishing the Company, and vesting all the revenues of India in the Crown. Under these circumstances, when we assume the responsibility of governing India, we cannot separate from that responsibility the obligation of meeting the engagements chargeable on Indian revenue. Those obligations must rest somewhere. If the proposed Act be once passed, it cannot be argued in Parliament that these obligations rest upon the non-existing Company abolished by Parliament itself. They must be sought for elsewhere. With the revenue of India they must be transferred to the Crown of England, and must, in case of necessity, be met by Parliament. I know that the argument which I am now urging is a most unpopular one. Even your Lordships may be displeased at being reminded of those serious liabilities. Remember I do not urge my argument as arising out of the present Bill, but in reference to the important change which it is proposed to make in the Government of India. I ask not for any immediate reply on the part of my noble Friend, the head of the Government, but I express a confident expectation that in connection with the India Bill, he will be prepared hereafter to give us a clear explanation upon the subject. It is not consistent with the decision and manliness of his character that we should be called upon to legislate in the dark, or that the slightest doubt should be loft to rest on the minds of the lenders of money as to their rights, or on the minds of the borrowers respecting their responsibilities. The question demands a decision, Aye or No. It is idle to talk of leaving this great question to a moral responsibility, or to a vague general understanding. I must be permitted to say that according to my experience, what is generally designated a good understanding, as distinguished from a precise contract, generally ends in a misunderstanding. The jus vagum at eque incognitum has
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  been well described as a miserable bondage. I need not rest on the philosophical historian: I can appeal to official authority in our own times in support of my views, for I find that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer in the debate upon the India Bill, on the 11th of February, is reported to have made the following statement:—
  "Let me remind the House of the Bill now on the table for raising money for the service of India, and of the effect on our finance, and on Indian finance, of the proposal of Government. It is idle any longer to distinguish between English and Indian finance. If the President of the Indian Council, a Queen's Minister in Downing Street, should find it necessary to raise money by a public loan to pay Her Majesty's troops in India, it will be idle when the dividends are due upon that loan to pretend to assert that he will be able to say if the means are not at hand, ' the Exchequer of India is empty and the revenue of India is alone liable' Every Gentleman will feel in his own mind, that such a distinction as this, between the finances of India and the finances of England cannot be retained for a moment, and that a blow on British credit at its very source where the tide is highest is infallible and inevitable."
  The right hon. Gentleman, who used this powerful and unqualified language, has but expressed in a more distinct manner, the very conclusions to which I have endeavoured to lead your Lordships. I cannot understand, indeed, by what process of reasoning any noble Lord, whom I am addressing, can satisfy himself that if there should be a deficiency in the revenue of India hereafter, which the Government were unable to meet from the resources of that country, we can contend that the responsibility of making good such deficiency would not ultimately rest upon the Parliament of England. This is a point which at a proper time will require to be clearly explained, because the Government of this country have no right to leave those who under the sanction of Parliament may lend money for India in any doubt as to the obligation for repayment. I have thought it my duty to address those observations to your Lordships to prepare you for the solution of the] question hereafter, when the Indian Bill comes under discussion. I do not raise any objection to the passing of the present Bill, which is admitted on all hands to be absolutely necessary, but the public attention should be directed to the consideration of the ultimate results of a policy which proposes to vest the absolute Government and possession of Indian territory in the hands of the Crown, and which appears to me thereby to augment the financial responsibilities of the European dominions of Her Majesty.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHMy Lords, if I understand aright, the object of

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  the measure which was proposed by the late Government, and the object of the measure proposed by Her Majesty's present Government, with respect to India, is to give to that country a better and cheaper government; and if that object can be accomplished, undoubtedly the danger of this country being called upon to assist India in its pecuniary difficulties will be greatly diminished. What I understand, then, is, that it is the duty of the person, whoever he may be, who is placed at the head of Indian affairs in this country, to endeavour so to reduce expenditure in India as to make that expenditure, if possible, come within the revenue. That, undoubtedly, is his first duty; and, above all, I desire and trust that we shall effect the object of relieving this country from any burden on account of India. My Lords, although the difficulties are undoubtedly great, I look forward with some hope to the ultimate result, I recollect that, when nearly thirty years ago I undertook the same office which I hold now, we had to encounter difficulties similar to those we are now experiencing; yet, under the advice and assistance of the late Duke of Wellington, in the course of two years and a half we effected or ordered, or had in contemplation reductions which in the aggregate would have exceeded £1,800,000 a year. No doubt the pecuniary difficulties arising out of the present condition of India are very great. We are compelled to employ, and shall be compelled to employ, in that country more than forty additional battalions of European troops, and at least ten, if not more than ton, additional regiments of European cavalry; besides that great arm, the artillery, a portion of which was formerly Native must now be altogether European. That will cause a very considerable increase in the expenditure, for the expenditure for a European soldier is very nearly equal to three times that necessary for a Native soldier; and it is therefore perfectly impossible for us to effect the equalization of the revenue and expenditure without a great reduction in the Native army. What is passing through my mind at the present moment, is a reduction of sixty-four battalions in the Bengal army. Your Lordships may depend upon it, if I am to be at the head of this great work, I shall do it with a determination of succeeding, if success be possible. I know it will be necessary to make great reductions in the ex-
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  penditure; and every reduction will probably create considerable unpopularity. That will be to me a matter of very small account, and I shall bear it as I have borne it before. As I have mentioned to your Lordships, I shall in every direction make such reductions as appear to me consistent with the public interests. My noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) observed that this loan differs altogether from loans which are raised for the service of this country. Those loans have a specific object; but with respect to this there is none, further than that it is for the general expenditure of India. Although, however, it differs in its general character from loans raised for the service of this country, this loan entirely agrees with the power of raising money which from time immemorial has been extended to the East India Company. They have had at all times the power of raising a large amount of money on India Bonds—£7,000,000, I believe—a portion of which remains to be raised at the present moment. The usual amount which they raise is £3,000,000 or £3,500,000, and sometimes it may go to £4,000,000. They have borrowed a large sum of money of late on these securities; nevertheless they have at this moment a power which is still unexercised of raising £1,000,000. This loan is only an extension of their power—a large extension, no doubt; still only an extension of the power of borrowing money which at all times seems to Parliament to have been consistent with the public interest that they should have. A power is to be now given to raise an amount that will about equal the expenditure; and no doubt it is extremely probable that events may occur which, under the present difficult state of circumstances, will render it necessary for the Government of India to depend altogether, for a time, upon our means of borrowing money, and not upon revenue. My noble Friend has referred to circumstances which existed twenty years ago, and he tells that at one period he found a surplus which amounted to £5,000,000, and at another a deficiency amounting to £15,000,000. But, my Lords, if you recall twenty years, you must recollect that the first portion of that period embraced the Affghan war, which continued four years, the two years' war in the Punjab, and another war, though not a long one a very costly on, in Scinde. These wars added millions to the expenditure. Although, however, the wars in the early part of those twenty years affected the

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  revenue materially, it was not so with respect to the last ten years; whereas, by the way in which it was put by my noble Friend, it would appear as if £7,000,000 had been added to the debt during that latter period. If my noble Friend will look into the amount of the balances in the treasury of India, he will find that those balances have increased £3,300,000; so that, in point of fact, the total increase of the debt has only been £3,700,000. If against that debt he will place £4,000,000 or £5,000,000, which have been expended in public works, many of them most profitable and remunerative to India, he will find that the revenue of India during the last ten years stands better than it did before. My noble Friend has gone into details with respect to land and other portions of Indian revenue. I speak from recollection; but when in India I took occasion to look at the subject as closely as possible, and the result which appeared to me at that time likely to occur with respect to the land revenue of Bengal was, that there would be a probable increase at the rate of £100,000 a year, but not beyond that amount. Undoubtedly, as regards the revenue from opium, no one can look to that without feeling apprehension as to its probable amount in future years, because circumstances happening from time to time may materially affect it. I should have mentioned, amongst various things to be taken into consideration as affecting the revenue of the previous period of ten years, that the war in China, although in one sense it cost India nothing, the expenditure being thrown on this country, yet it was not an event which ought to be omitted to be taken into consideration—it seriously affected the trade of India at the time, and the effect of it upon the revenue from opium was to lessen it fifty per cent., and therefore it most materially deteriorated the then position of the Company. At the present moment the amount receive I from opium is extremely large; and although sanguine persons may expect that the progress of civilisation and enlightenment will decrease the consumption of the drug, yet it is an undoubted fact that a most extraordinary increase has of late taken place in the quantity of opium exported to China, and the demand for it in that country seems to be still extending. Now, if we are capable of obtaining a good Government for India—and I know that we shall do what we can for the attainment of that object—why should we despair of seeing that country hereafter in a prosper-
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  ous condition? It is the most extensive and the richest empire in the world; it is traversed in all directions by noble rivers, which can be made navigable by the art of man; we are now intersecting it in every direction with railroads; and I cannot understand why we should not, with all our European energy and European knowledge, make India as productive as it was in the time of Aurungzebe, who, it is stated, drew as large a revenue from that portion of the country which was under his control as the East India Company have derived from the whole of their territories. I confidently look forward to the realization of that object, which, if it can be accomplished, will be particularly gratifying to my noble Friend, who very naturally takes a fiscal view of these matters. I am willing to do the same, for I hold that a Government conducted by intelligence can do more for the good of the people than one which, by injurious parsimony or unpardonable extravagance, impoverishes the resources of the country. My Lords, I shall say no more than that before a fortnight has elapsed my noble Friend will see what steps I have endeavoured to take, which I trust will have the effect, not only of giving good government to India, but of greatly improving its fiscal position.
  EARL GRANVILLEI recollect that at the last stage of the Bill my noble Friend near me (Lord Monteagle) complimented the noble Earl opposite on the very satisfactory statement which he then made with regard to India; but I cannot help thinking that my noble Friend has not tonight, followed the text on which he then preached. There is no doubt that the finances of India require very great attention, fend I believe that a reform in them, might be most advantageously carried out. I think, even with regard to the system of accounts, much remains to be done under that head. The income of the last year has of course seriously suffered from the rebellion; but I believe some compensation for that will be found in the fact of the Company having been released from some of its liabilities. I do trust that in the reorganization of the army, although I quite agree that it will be necessary to increase very much the number of European troops, it will not be found impossible on the whole to reduce considerably the total cost of the Indian army. J3ut of one thing I am quite certain, and that is, that any real economy must depend on the local government of India. If the Imperial Parliament once encourage the local government to believe

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  that they can obtain facilities for raising money, not on the security of the Indian revenue, but on the security of the Crown and the Parliament of this country, there will be encouragements to a lavish expenditure, which will not exist if they find they are checked by the difficulty of raising loans merely on the security of the Indian Government itself. I think this is a most important consideration. The noble Lord referred to certain assistance which had been given by this country to India at a former period. No one can doubt that circumstances may arise in which this country might think fit in some way or other to afford assistance to India; but I do not understand how the form of Government at home can in the slightest degree affect that question. It appears to me that it would be entirely unreasonable to raise money now at a higher rate on the security merely of the Indian revenue, and to look afterwards to the English Government for the repayment of the loan. I believe that could not have been the intention of Sir Robert Peel when he stated, as he did on one occasion, that it might be necessary for this country to come to the assistance of India in a time of great difficulty. I really have nothing more to say in defence of this Bill. The noble Earl upon whom has devolved the responsibility of conducting it through your Lordships' House has disposed of the arguments raised against the measure. In conclusion, I will only say that I entirely deny that by this Bill we give in the slightest degree any collateral security to that afforded by the revenues of India for the repayment of this loan.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHThe noble Earl is quite right. Neither by this Bill nor on any other ground can India evade in the slightest degree the liability thrown upon it to repay the whole of this loan. As regards what Sir Robert Peel appears to have said, I was in India at the time he made the speech to which reference had been made, and I recollect reading that speech with complete astonishment. What he could have meant I cannot understand. I felt I was then thoroughly independent. I had to pay my own way, and I never had the slightest chance of obtaining assistance from this country. What assistance Sir Robert Peel could have contemplated, I repeat, I cannot understand.
  EARL GREYMy Lords, I rejoice to find that, with a single exception, there is a general repudiation by your Lordships of the doctrine that, by this Bill, any engage-
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  ment whatever can be implied on the part of Parliament to make up any deficiency on the part of the revenue of India, to provide for the interest of the loan about to be made. I think there is no obligation, either moral or otherwise, imposed on this country to pay the debts of India. If it were otherwise, what would be the consequence? If you adopt the principle that this country may be answerable for debts contracted by India, you must follow it up by taking care that the whole expenditure of the Indian Government shall be brought under the consideration of Parliament, and Parliament must exercise a close scrutiny over that expenditure. But more than that. If that principle is to be applied to India, must it not be extended to other dominions of the Crown? And remember there are dominions of the Crown—such as Trinidad, the Mauritius, and others, which do not possess any representative legislatures. I contend that the principle is one which we cannot too studiously guard against admitting, either directly or indirectly. I hold that the revenue of India, and the revenue of India alone, is pledged by this Bill. There are reasons of policy which make it desirable that English security should not extend to loans contracted on behalf of India. I think it desirable that there should be a great number of persons in this country who would take an interest in seeing that the affairs of India are so managed as to conduce to the welfare of the Native population under our rule, and to the interests of the mother country, and who would exercise a check on the misgovernment of India, by which the security of private property might be injured. I am persuaded that, if India is properly governed, the security it affords for this loan is a very good one. I have heard with great satisfaction the views stated by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellen-borough). I believe with him the resources of India are so great that, if properly administered, they will furnish ample means of repaying this debt. I was glad to hear that he looks to the possibility of reducing the expenditure of India, especially the military expenditure. So, from the fearful calamities consequent upon the mutiny, we may at least derive this benefit, that in future the policy pursued towards India will be very different from what it has been heretofore. We have hitherto kept up a disproportionate army in India, not so much for internal purposes as with a view to meet imaginary external dangers. The real source of our calamity in India, and of

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  our future danger, is, the warlike policy on which we have acted. I trust we shall now feel the necessity of keeping our army in India, and particularly the Native army, within more moderate limits; and we shall then adopt the principle of not meddling in the affairs of our neighbours, a course which has drawn us into unnecessary and expensive wars, and been the cause of all our difficulties. If the £12,000,000 of money thrown away on the Affghan war had been applied to internal improvements, how far it would have gone to increase the security of our position in the country, and to establish our influence in the central parts of Asia.
  THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, he would remind the House that in 1773 Lord North complained of the conduct of the East India Company being so oppressive towards the Natives that it was absolutely necessary to subject it to the control of the Crown, and at the same time proposed a loan from Parliament to the Company of £1,400,000. No doubt, the resources of India, if properly developed, were fully equal to make it one of the richest Governments, as it was by nature about the richest empire, in the world. But to attain that end a very different system of administration must be introduced into that country from that which had prevailed under the East India Company. The noble Earl had referred to the reduction of the army of Bengal; but the army of Bombay required almost as much looking into it as what was left of the Bengal army. Indeed, to effect great reductions the army of all the Presidencies must undergo revision. Nor, indeed, ought their economy to be confined to the military service. The salaries now paid to the civil service of India were in many instances in the highest degree exorbitant. If the Administration of that country was to be put upon a proper footing, with a view to its being permeated throughout by British capital and British enterprise, and to its being really civilized, they must establish better laws and an improved judicial system. This, however, would lead to a considerable increase of expense, the means of defraying which could be supplied only by careful retrenchment in the other branches of the Government. He thought the noble Earl took too bright a view of the probable prosperity of India for some time to come; and when he stated that at the present moment there was such a demand for opium in China that the value of
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  that drug had largely increased, and, consequently, that our opium revenue had greatly advanced, he should not forget that this growing demand in China would most likely induce the Government of that empire to alter a policy which, though beneficial, perhaps, to this country, was yet perfectly absurd in itself. English credit and English revenue were therefore intimately connected with questions of Indian finance.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock to Monday next, half-past Ten o'clock.