Sitting of 30 July 1858

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1oEquitable Councils of Conciliation.
TRUSTEES AND EXECUTORS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ROEBUCKsaid, he wished to ask the Solicitor General whether it is intended by Government to bring in a Bill next Session of Parliament to relieve Trustees and Executors from the present severe Laws affecting them, and to enlarge their powers for the better administration of their trust estates?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, an opinion having been very generally expressed that the Act passed last Session for subjecting Trustees to criminal responsibility ought to have been accompanied with some provision for relieving them from their civil liability, a measure had been introduced by Lord St. Leonards, and passed by the House of Lords, for that purpose. When it came down to the Commons, however, many of its provisions were objected to, and it was ultimately referred to a Select Committee. That Committee, on considering the subject, found

  2303
  difficulties springing up at every step. On the one hand there was the danger of holding out to trustees an appearance of protection which would be after all only illusory, and on the other the danger of leading them to suppose that the duty they undertook was only nominal, and subject to no real responsibility. Under these circumstances, the Committee had not felt it right to recommend the Bill as it stood, and owing to the lateness of the Session, and the difficulty of getting a quorum, it was not likely that they would make their Report before the prorogation. With regard to the future, it would be wrong in him to make any definite promise, but he would do all he could to remove the objections to which his attention had been directed, and if he saw any means of accomplishing that object, he would bring in a Bill for the purpose early in the ensuing Session, hoping at the same time to have the assistance of the noble and learned Lord to whom he had just alluded.

  SERGEANT BRODIE.—QUESTION.
  MR. CONINGHAMsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, whether it be true that Sergeant Brodie has within the last eighteen months repeatedly remonstrated with the officials at Pall Mall, and with the late Secretary for War against the maladministration of the Clothing Department at Weedon. Whether Sergeant Brodie has received any remuneration for the loss he consented to sustain, thinking that he held a life appointment, by the sale of £800 worth of goods at a quarter of their value; also whether it be true that his services were dispensed with only, and that he rejected the gratuity then offered to him, stating that he had committed no offence. Whether the alterations in saddlery suggested by Sergeant Brodie had ever had a fair trial, and whether he has received any remuneration for his trouble in getting up the said appointments for the Secretary of State for War. Also, whether it be true that Captain Smith, Inspector of Saddlery at Weedon, receives 10 s. per day on the Superannuated List in addition to his salary.
  GENERAL PEELreplied, that it was impossible to say what private or verbal communications might have passed between his noble Predecessor or the Officials of the War Department and Sergeant Brodie, but there was no official record of any paper whatever relating to any remonstrance
  2304
  made by Sergeant Brodie with respect to the Clothing Department at Weedon. Sergeant Brodie was appointed foreman of saddlery at Weedon upon the same terms, and subject to the same conditions, as other foremen in the service of the War Department. He was dismissed on the 18th of September last, and signed a receipt for the gratuity referred to in the question on the following day. The alterations in saddlery suggested by Sergeant Brodie were examined by the proper authorities, and the Inspector General of Cavalry reported against them. It was not the custom of the War Department to give any remuneration for such alterations, except in cases where they were approved and actually adopted by the service. It was true that Captain Smith received 10 s. a day, to which he was fully entitled as half-pay, in addition to his salary. There was no intention to reappoint Sergeant Brodie to his place under the War Department.

  THE INDIAN TELEGRAPH.—QUESTION.
  MR. WILSONsaid, he would beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress has been made in arrangements for completing a telegraphic communication through the Mediterranean to Alexandria, and thence to India, since the dates of the last papers upon the subject, recently laid upon the table of the House.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the Porte had made a concession to certain persons of a line of telegraph from Alexandria to Aden, and Her Majesty's Government were at present in communication with those persons, with the view of continuing the line from Aden to India. If the negotiations were concluded happily—of which he thought there was a probability—the works would be commenced in the autumn.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, he would also beg to inquire what progress has been made in the negotiations for establishing a telegraphic communication from Corfu to Alexandria.
  MR. G. A. HAMILTONreplied, that the negotiations with the Austrian Government were not yet completed, nor could he say at present what the result might be.

LAW OF BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. NICOLLsaid, he would beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government

  2305
  to lay upon the table of either House the long-promised Bill to amend the law relating to bankruptcy and insolvency, so that Members may have an opportunity to consider the same during the recess.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I believe, Sir, it is the intention of the Lord Chancellor to introduce such a Bill this Session in the House of Lords, but of course not with the intention of proceeding further with it at present.

  BRAY'S AND BOYDELL'S TRACTION ENGINE.—QUESTION.
  SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he wished to ask the President of the India Board whether it is intended to act on the strong recommendations by the official authorities at Woolwich of Bray's and Boydell's Traction Engines, as being likely, in the opinion of these authorities, to prove of utility to the army in India in facilitating the transport of troops, artillery, and stores?
  LORD STANLEY: Sir, on the 27th of this month a letter was written by the Board of Control to the authorities in India, forwarding a copy of the Special Report on these engines, and suggesting that four should be sent out, two for Calcutta and two for Bombay. To that communication of course we cannot receive an answer for some time. I believe there is no doubt as to the value of the principle of these engines, but there is a doubt whether the work and construction of those that have been tried are such as will fit them for active service.
  SIR DE LACY EVANS: I believe there was no imperfection in one of them.

  THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON'S MONUMENT.—QUESTION.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, whether, as he has announced his intention of causing a full-sized model of the Wellington Monument to be made by Mr. Stevens, and placed on the proposed site before anything is finally decided, he will give the public an opportunity of viewing the work of any other sculptor who may be willing, on his own responsibility, to make a design and full-sized model of the monument.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, that in consequence of the construction put by the noble Lord on his speech on the previous evening, he must reply in the negative.
  LORD ELCHO: Then I will take the sense of the House on the subject next Session.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (No. 3) BILL.

  LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
  Order for Consideration of Lords' Reasons for insisting on certain of their Amendments read.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERintimated, that in consequence of the state of public business, he proposed to proceed with the Orders of the Day before moving that the House at its rising adjourn to Monday.
  MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, that as the questions which he had given notice to put on the Motion for adjournment related to the public service in India, he should probably not be considered out of order in putting them now. Of course, it was not his intention at that period of the Session to raise a discussion on the affairs of India, though he certainly regretted that, notwithstanding the House had been occupied during a great part of the latter end of the Session with the discussion relating to the Government of India, there had, in fact, been no discussion on their present and future relations with that part of the empire. The first question be now wished to put was connected with the position of the army in India at the present moment. He wished to learn from the noble Lord the President of the Board of Control what was the amount of the force at present in India. When the late Government left office in the winter, it appeared from the best authorities, to which they had access, that it was necessary to have 80,000 European troops in India, and that was about the number calculated to be there at that time. It was then calculated that, owing to the insalubrity of the climate, accidents in warfare, disease, and deaths in action, reinforcements ought to be provided to the amount of 20,000 in the course of the year. The noble Lord had stated the other evening that since January last 17,000 men had been sent to India; but, as in the present state of the law no troops could be added to the establishment of India unless upon application of the East India Company, he wished to know whether the Directors of the Company had applied to the Government to add to the forces in India owing to advices they had received, and a desire on their part that the establishments should be increased, or whether those 17,000 only constituted the necessary amount to supply vacancies caused by disease and deaths in action. It was all important that they should be officially informed upon this point, seeing that at

  2307
  present they had no other information than was obtained from newspaper reports and private letters. He did not wish to be understood as making any complaint against the noble Lord on that account, for his experience during the past year convinced him of the difficulty of obtaining reliable information from India during the heat of action. Now, however, that the enemy had been in a great measure dispersed, we ought to have some information not only as to the amount of the European force, but something like an approximate calculation of the force of the rebels. They knew the number of regiments which had mutinied, and he believed that no additional levies had been added to the troops which had mutinied, and the Contingents of the Native States which had also mutinied. The last account from the seat of war, so far as he could judge, appeared to him very satisfactory, but he could not help observing, that although the British arms were everywhere victorious, though the mutinous soldiers were routed and dispersed, they were not destroyed. They heard of their rallying again and again, appearing suddenly before fortress after fortress in various parts of the country, and occupying them the moment our troops were withdrawn and engaged elsewhere. Everything indicated, indeed, not only present resistance, but a long, and, he feared, a protracted struggle. It was, therefore, of importance that Parliament should be informed what was the actual condition of our own army, and what was the extent of the reinforcements intended to be sent in order to bring this kind of warfare to an end, and restore the country to tranquillity. His next question related to a subject also of great importance—namely, the organization of the Military Commission which the noble Lord had issued. On a former occasion he stated that he found upon examination that the civil element which had been promised in the constitution of that Commission had been omitted. He considered that element of great importance, and much regretted its omission, though, no doubt, satisfactory reasons could be given for it. But what the public ought to know was, what would be the extent and power of that Commission. For his own part, he thought it would be better if the Commission were issued in India, because they would find there persons more competent to enter into such an inquiry than here. At the same time, he was quite alive to the difficulty of
  2308
  getting persons in India to serve on such a Commission under present circumstances. He was aware that the Governor General had issued circulars through Colonel Durrant to obtain information from persons perfectly competent to afford it, and that information, when obtained, would be extremely useful to those who were about to conduct the inquiry. Most of the gentlemen who were appointed on this Commission had been a long time absent from India, and though amongst them there were military officers of great distinction they were not precisely the fittest persons to examine into a subject so extensive and momentous as what should be the future organization of the Indian army. The Sepoy regiments had wholly broken down. Yet they heard of many persons sanguine enough to urge that in any new constitution of the Indian army the Sikh and the Goorkha elements should be largely introduced. With regard to the Goorkhas, the experience we had had of them did not warrant that recommendation; and with regard to the Sikhs, though no one could dispute their bravery, yet the bringing them into action side by side with our own troops, while it had taught them discipline and made them valuable allies, it had also made them dangerous as enemies. Under all circumstances he doubted much whether it would be advisable to trust the Sikhs, lest they should follow the example of the Sepoys. This was an important question. Hitherto the great glory of the Indian empire was, that we had been able to hold and defend the nation we had conquered by the troops we had overcome. That would be a difficult task in future, and therefore he said that the organization of the Indian army was one of the most important subjects that could be deliberated upon. If the Commission should be set to work at present merely to examine all the details and to gather information, it might be useful; but if it was a Commission issued for the Government to rely and fall back upon hereafter, then he said that such a course would be unworthy of a British Minister, and one which he hoped the noble Lord would not pursue. They had plenty of information and many and valuable papers on the subject from Sir J. Lawrence, Colonel Jacob, Sir C. Napier, and others, upon which the Government might establish some scheme of organization, without relying upon the Commission. He should be glad, therefore, to know what was to be the extent of the powers of this Com-

  2309
  mission. The third question related to another important subject. The House was aware that at the commencement of this Session an Act was passed enabling the East India Company to borrow £8,000,000 between the time at which the measure became law and the month of April, 1859, and it was provided by that Act that the Company should, early next Session, present to Parliament a statement of their affairs—showing how much they had borrowed of this money and how much remained to be borrowed. But as they were now about to separate for some time, he hoped the noble Lord would be able to give the House some information before they prorogued of the amount that had been raised, and whether it was sufficient to meet the expenses that were likely to accrue before they were again called together. In order to render this information complete, it would be necessary to know the amount of bills issued, and the position in which the Company stood with regard to its finances. The usual way of advancing money for the purposes of the Indian Government, until the mutiny broke out, was to receive the money from the merchants here, giving bills in exchange upon the Indian Treasury, and that was usually done to the amount of about £4,000,000 a year. That system was discontinued when the Act passed, as it was thought imprudent to draw upon the Indian finances at a time when money might be urgently required for the public service. Still, if the revenue of India was larger in amount, or the operation of borrowing in India now more successful than during the last year, it might be possible that bills might again be drawn upon India in the same way; but at all events the House should know what was the financial position of the Company, and what were its means of meeting the demands of the next twelve months. His last question was, whether any instructions had been sent, or would be sent, to issue a proclamation of Her Majesty's name and authority in India, and to announce that the Government did not intend to interfere with the religion of the Natives. The first portion of this question the noble Lord had answered on a previous occasion. He said that it was intended to issue a proclamation establishing the Queen's name in India, but whether it was to emanate from India or from this country, he did not explain. The latter part of the question was of importance in connection with the proclama-
  2310
  tion. The proclamation of the Queen's name would, no doubt, impress the Natives of India with the notion of a very considerable change, but different interpretations might be put upon it. Some persons might regard it as a means of introducing and forcing Christianity upon the Natives, and it was therefore most desirable that the proclamation should be accompanied by some explanation which would prevent such a misapprehension. On the other hand there existed in this country a belief—whether well founded or not—that in the late direction of affairs in India there had been a disinclination to maintain the truth of our own religious faith, and that too great a deference had been paid to the religion of the Natives. He, therefore, thought it advisable that the Government should adopt some means, by proclamation or otherwise, of declaring that, while they were fully prepared to maintain the Christian faith, they would be most jealous of any interference with the religion of the Natives, and would cautiously guard against any indiscretion in that respect on the part of persons employed in the public service. He thought the noble Lord might fairly take Parliament into his confidence upon these subjects, for upon him devolved a greater task than had perhaps fallen to the lot of any Minister—a task almost as great as that of founding a new empire in India. In his (Mr. Vernon Smith's) opinion the task of those who had been engaged for two centuries in establishing the Indian empire was less difficult than that which now devolved upon the British nation of re-establishing that empire, the glory of which had been destroyed by the late mutiny, although he hoped it would still continue one of the most important and valuable possessions of the British Crown. The questions he wished to ask were: Whether the 17,000 men sent to India since January last included any troops requested to be added to the establishment in India by the Directors of the East India Company? Whether he will state the terms and objects of the Commission to inquire into the re-organization of the Indian army? What is the amount borrowed under the Indian Loan Act of this Session, and whether the amount allowed to be borrowed under the Act will cover the expenses of the current year, or if Bills are now drawn upon India in the usual method? And, whether any instructions had been sent, or would be sent, to proclaim Her Majesty's name and authority in India, and

  2311
  to announce the intentions of the Government as to non-interference with the religion of the Natives?
  MR. STAPLETON—who was indistinctly heard—said, he had a question of his own on the same subject. He wished to call the attention of the House to the intention expressed by the President of the Board of Control, in moving the second reading of the Government of India Bill, of referring the question of appointments to cadetships in the non-scientific branches of the Indian army to the Commission which was about to inquire into the reorganization Of that army; and to ask, whether the members of the Council for the affairs of India, to be appointed by Government, would be appointed subject to what Parliament might hereafter decide with respect to such cadetships. He had put this notice on the paper in consequence of the noble Lord's statement, that the present arrangements were only temporary, and that the whole subject of the Indian army would be referred to a Commission.
  MR. RICHsaid, he thought the observations of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Vernon Smith) implied some distrust with regard to the proclamation which the noble Lord had intimated his intention of issuing; but he could only say, from the declarations which had been made by the noble Lord in the course of the discussions on the India Bill, that, in his opinion, Parliament might entertain full and entire confidence that the noble Lord in dealing with this great subject, would act with firmness and moderation, and would temper justice with mercy. His right hon. Friend (Mr. Vernon Smith), had in the course of his observations, but probably through inadvertence, totally ignored a large body of our fellow-subjects in India, who had, with very trifling exceptions, throughout most trying circumstances, maintained their loyalty—the armies of Madras and Bombay. The right hon. Gentleman had also ignored the loyalty of a number of the Native Princes, who had magnanimously upheld British dominion. He felt confident, however, that the noble Lord, while he asserted the proud dominion of England, would at the same time recognize the loyal spirit which had been manifested throughout India by large bodies of our Indian fellow-subjects.
  LORD STANLEY: Sir, the House is entitled to demand, and I think the public may fairly expect to receive, from those who are in possession of it, some informa-
  2312
  tion upon the important questions to which the right hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Vernon Smith) has referred; and I am glad he has afforded me an opportunity of briefly stating to the House what I believe to be the position of affairs with regard to the points to which he has called attention. In the first place, I have been asked as to the extent of the European force at present in India, and I think the right hon. Gentleman also inquired whether we could form any estimate of the probable aggregate strength of those various and scattered bodies of mutineers to whom our troops are opposed in the field. Now, upon the latter point I am afraid it is not possible for me, or indeed for any one even in India, to form an accurate judgment. It appears that, of late, the whole progress and tendency of affairs have been in this direction—that the organized insurrection has everywhere been defeated, but that parties of armed insurgents are scattered far and wide throughout the country, eluding pursuit, and generally avoiding conflict with our troops. Under these circumstances it is utterly impossible for any one to say what is the strength of the mutineers. It is probably unknown, not only to any British general, but to any leader of the insurgents themselves. This is the more likely to be the case, because I learn—not from any official reports, but from private letters—that at the time when the insurrection existed in a more organized form than I hope is the case at present, recruiting went on rapidly among the insurgents, and that some of the revolted Sepoy regiments regularly enlisted new recruits, forming in one instance a second battalion, and preserving in some degree the military order and discipline to which they had been accustomed in our service. As to the strength of the European force, I am able to give a more satisfactory answer. The right hon. Gentleman stated, a few nights ago, that he had seen some account which represented the effective European force in India as being reduced to 26,000 men. I am happy to say that that account is very far below the reality. I have obtained from the War Department the latest Return which they possess of the strength of the Queen's army in India, and perhaps the best course I can take will be to read, not the Return as I have it, but a summary of the totals. The total number of Europeans in the Queen's army supposed to be in India, or on their way out, was 78,416; but from that it is fair to say there must

  2313
  be deducted 7,456 men, who were reported sick at the time when these Returns were made, and 11,059 were draughts on their way out. These troops will probably have arrived at the present time, and will constitute part of the effective strength of the force, which will thus comprise nearly 71,000 men. The Returns are not all of the same date; some are dated the 1st of May, others the 1st of June; and of course further deduction—I am afraid a considerable deduction—must be made for casualties since that time. But the fact remains that the Queen's army, at the date of the latest Returns, numbered nearly 60,000 effective men, and about 11,000 draughts on their way out. With regard to the Company's forces, I have obtained a memorandum from the East India House, which is made up partly by actual statements of facts and partly by estimate to the 1st of July. It gives a total of 15,855 Company's troops (Europeans). That number is made up, I should say, by adding the troops embarked in June and July, and now on their way; but there is also a deduction of 1,192 for casualties, estimated upon the proportion of loss which has occurred up to the date of which we have information. I need not say that no estimate of this kind can be entirely reliable, and, therefore, the papers which I quote must be looked upon as forming an approximate calculation only. We have thus, however, an estimated strength of 15,800 Company's troops and 71,000 Queen's troops (all Europeans),—making a total of between 86,000 and 87,000 Europeans; and it is obvious that, after the largest deduction which it can be necessary to make (and I am afraid that deduction must be a heavy one) for losses sustained by service in the field and by sickness consequent on exposure, since the date to which these Returns refer—after, I say, making the largest and most liberal deduction on that account, we may still consider that we have between 70,000 and 80,000 effective men—certainly above 70,000—for service in India. I was asked by the right hon. Gentleman how many of the men sent out since January last were, at the request of the Directors of the Company, added to the establishment in India, distinguishing them, I suppose, from the number of draughts and recruits? On this point I have received a memorandum from the East India House, dated the 23rd of this month, giving the figures which I quoted in the House the other
  2314
  day. I then stated that nearly 17,000 had been sent out between January and July. The exact number I find is 16,730, and of those all are draughts or recruits except 634, being eight companies of Her Majesty's 57th Regiment. The 16,000 are, therefore, draughts and recruits. Other regiments, as is well known, have been despatched from various parts of the world. The House will remember that at an early period of the insurrection application was made—not, according to form, through the Court of Directors here, but directly—at the Cape and other places, and these requests were, from the urgency of the occasion, acceded to without waiting for orders from home. With regard to the second question addressed to me by the right hon. Gentleman, as to the objects of the Commission which is to inquire into the organization of the Indian army, I think I shall best reply by reading the heads of the inquiry upon which it is intended that that Commission shall enter. They are:—

  "1. The terms on which the army of the East India Company is to be transferred to the Crown.

  "2. The permanent force necessary to be maintained in the Indian provinces respectively after the restoration of tranquillity.

  "3. The proportion which European should bear to Native troops, in infantry, cavalry, and artillery respectively.

  "4. How far the European portion of the army should be composed of troops of the line, taking India as parts of the regular tour of service, and how far of troops raised for service in India only.

  "5. In connection with this question the best means of providing for the periodical relief of the former portion, and of securing the efficiency of the latter.

  "6. Whether it be possible to consolidate the European forces, so as to allow of exchange from one branch of the service to the other, and what regulations would be necessary and practicable to effect this object with perfect justice to the claims of all officers now in the service of the East India Company?

  "7. Whether there should be any admixture of European and Native forces, either regimentally or by brigade?

  "8. Whether the local European force should be kept up by draughts and volunteers from the line, or should be, as at present, separately recruited for in Great Britain?

  "9. Whether it would be possible to raise any regiments in the colonies, either for temporary or permanent service in India?

  "10. Whether the Native forces should be regular or irregular, or both, and if so, in what proportions?

  "11. Whether any Native artillery corps should be sanctioned?

  "12. Whether cadets sent out for service with Native troops should in the first instance be attached to European regiments, to secure uniformity of drill and discipline?"

  2315
  These are the heads of the inquiry proposed. As to the modification which has taken place in the constitution of the Commission, and on which some remarks have been made by the right hon. Gentleman, I have to say that it was originally considered desirable that, besides the civilians who are officially to sit upon it, there should be three other gentlemen of eminence in public life who should give it the benefit of their experience and of their services; but, from various circumstances, and more especially considering the time of year at which this Commission was to sit—the first meeting having taken place in the course of the present week, and the next being fixed for Tuesday—it was found so difficult to obtain the services of those who we desire should sit upon the Commission that that part of the scheme was abandoned. It is quite true that an inquiry—the nature of which I do not exactly know—upon the same subject is taking place in India; but though, of course, there are many advantages in instituting an investigation of that kind upon the spot, one great disadvantage attends it—namely, that the great majority of those officers whose services would be most valuable are actively engaged, and are unable, therefore, to give their attention to it. This objection does not apply in the same degree to those who have either retired from the service, or who, on the ground of health, have lately returned from India; and, I am happy to say, we have many of that description whose advice and assistance will be most valuable. Before I leave the subject of the Commission I will state that it is not intended, and cannot be intended, to lessen in any, the slightest degree, the responsibility which must devolve upon the Government for the settlement of this very large question. The ultimate decision, be it what it may, must depend upon the responsibility of the Government of the day, and the Report of the Commission of Inquiry will carry with it no other weight than that which is derived from the eminence of its members, the experience and knowledge they bring to bear upon the subject, and the soundness of the reasons they employ. I have been also told by an hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stapleton) that some arrangements which I proposed on the second reading have been departed from, because patronage which formerly rested with the Directors will henceforth be vested in the Crown. Now, in recom-
  2316
  mending that proposition to the approval of the House, my wish was to carry on as far as possible the analogy of the system which actually exists; and I confess I think the hon. Member who referred to the subject, when he describes the members of this Council as being taken entirely from one class of society, whereas members of the Court of Directors were taken from quite another, has, to use the mildest term, greatly overstated the case. Certainly a large and very valuable section of all former Courts of Directors always consisted of men of Indian service and experience; but I may remind the House that there is in the Bill as it stands an actual legal provision that a majority, and something more, of the Council should be taken from that same class. Then the same hon. Member asked me whether it was intended that the arrangement with regard to the non-scientific military appointments should be provisional only and subject to the Report of the Commission, or whether it was intended as a permanent arrangement. Now, it is obvious that what one Act of Parliament has sanctioned another at any future period can overthrow. As to the objection that compensation might be claimed where any appointments of this kind were taken away, we have shown, I think, what our feelings are upon that point by the 14th clause of the Bill, in which it is stated expressly that if the Council itself were abolished within ten years no claim for compensation could arise. Naturally, as discussion has gone on we have seen our way more clearly, but I do not think it is proper—though, of course, it is in the power of Parliament to deal with the subject as it will—that any measures taken for the reorganization of the Indian army should involve a change in the manner in which the first appointments will be made. I think the question of first appointments, and that of the discipline and reorganization of the army afterwards, are distinct questions, and that it is quite possible to deal with the one without touching the other. Now, with regard to the financial part of the question connected with India, to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, I think I shall best satisfy the wishes of hon. Members by reading a memorandum which I have received from the East India House. That memorandum states that,—

  "The India Loan Act conferred the power of borrowing

  £8,000,000

  Which has been already used to the extent of

  4,421,000

  2317

  Leaving yet available the power of borrowing

  £3,579,000

  Add

  India Bonds:—Unissued portion of £7,000,000

  £1,135,600

  May be issued to replace those notified for discharge

  653,900

  Ditto, to replace those now deposited with Bank of England, which will be available on loan being paid off in October, 1858

  1,000,000

  2,789,500

  May be borrowed on debentures and bonds

  £6,368,500

  The disbursements of the Home Treasury to the 31st of January, 1859, in excess of the present cash balance, are estimated at

  £5,172,200

  "The means of the Home Treasury are therefore estimated to be more than adequate to meet the disbursements until next Session, without including the sums that may be realized for Court's bills on India, or from the sale of Exchequer bills and bonds now in hand (£1,598,900).
  "In this estimate the receipts from railway companies are not included."
  From a consideration of those figures, which do not include the receipts from railway companies, I think it will be found that the statement which I have to make in answer to the right hon. Gentleman is satisfactory so far as the financial part of the question is concerned. I now come to the question which the right hon. Gentleman has put to me in reference to the proclamation which is of opinion it would be desirable to issue when the transfer of the government of India to the Crown has been completed. In reply to the right hon. Gentleman's observations upon that point, I can only say that, both on account of the importance of the occasion and also to guard against misconstruction, I think that that transfer ought to be in some manner formally notified to the people of India. So far as our interference with the religion of the Natives is concerned, I shall content myself with observing that there is in a recent despatch of the Earl of Ellenborough's, dated the 13th of April, a passage which I shall quote, simply because it expresses in language clearer and more forcible than any to which I could give utterance my own feelings and that of the Government of which I am a member upon the subject. [The noble Lord then read an extract from the despatch in question, stating that the Government would be guided by a policy of neutrality and good faith in re-
  2318
  ference to matters affecting the religion of the Natives of India, and most earnestly calling upon all the authorities in India not to afford the slightest cause for the suspicion that that policy had undergone or would undergo any change.] Those are the opinions of Her Majesty's present advisers. That passage expresses sentiments in which I fully concur, and I deem it highly desirable that, whether by proclamation or by some other means, the fullest assurance should be given to the Natives of India that the change which is about to take place in the government of that country is not intended to involve any change in the policy of the Government. With regard to the manner in which the announcement in question ought to be made, I may be permitted to say that I do not think it is usual to put, as it were, into the mouth of the Governor General of India the words in which it should be couched, without leaving to him any discretion as to the modification or withholding altogether of any particular form of expression. That is a point which yet remains under the consideration of the Government; but I may say that my own individual impression is, that the most advisable course to take with respect to it would be to state in general terms to Viscount Canning that which we wish to be done, leaving it to his own discretion to use such language as he may deem expedient. My answer to the question of the right hon. Gentleman on this point therefore is, that there will be an announcement of the transfer of the government of India from the Company to the Crown, and that due care will be taken to assure the people of that country that the change is not meant to interfere with their ideas or habits in regard to matters of religious belief.
  MR. SPOONERsaid, the question which had been put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton, and the answer which had been given to it by the noble Lord, were of very grave importance. The right hon. Gentleman had stated with justice that the answer of the noble Lord might be liable to misconstruction, and he (Mr. Spooner) admitted that he wished the question had not been put, or that the House had been favoured with a different explanation from the noble Lord. The noble Lord had stated that neutrality was still to guide and govern the Councils of India with regard to religion. Now, if by the word "neutrality," the noble Lord meant that there should

  2319
  neither be an attempt to compel or to bribe with the view of converting to Christianity, and that persons of all religions should be treated with perfect impartiality, then he readily granted that that would be a right line of conduct to pursue; but if that were the meaning of the noble Lord, "neutrality" was not the proper term by which to designate it. On the other hand if it were not his meaning, then he would ask whether the noble Lord intended to declare that it was a matter of indifference to a Christian country and Government whether or not idolatry still prevailed in the large empire committed to our care? For his part, he was entirely at a loss to see how they could justify, in an assembly of a Christian nation, the expression that we ought to be neutral upon the question whether an idolatrous system continued, or whether the Hindoos were sufficiently enlightened to know the value of the Christian religion. If a public proclamation assured the Natives of India that there should be no compulsory interference with their religion, that there should be no bribery, and no attempt to make converts by coercion; that they should be left entirely to the effect of the Word of God, and of His Holy Spirit upon their minds, he had confidence enough in that Holy Word and in that Holy Spirit to leave them to do their own work and produce their own effects; but whilst that was declared, the proclamation ought also to express the full conviction of the Government that Christianity was the only sound and true religion; the only method either to civilize or to diffuse happiness among the inhabitants of India, and at the same time the only sure ground on which we could look for the blessing of Almighty God upon our rule. In such a course he should fully concur; but he would maintain that we had not acted in accordance with such a course of "neutrality" when we paid for the maintenance and encouragement of idolatrous practices—a sin of which he had been informed we were not, even at the present moment, entirely clear. We had been guilty of great crimes in India—and he agreed with the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton when he stated, in a manner that had made a great impression on his (Mr. Spooner's) mind, his conviction that India was not given to us merely to gratify our ambition as a nation, or to realize fortunes for our merchants, but for higher and nobler purposes. No; there were great responsibilities and
  2320
  elevated duties connected with its possession, and we had not acted up to those responsibilities and duties. But we had actually supported, encouraged, and paid for the maintenance of idolatrous practices. Then with respect to the subject of education in the schools of India, he had been told that we did not suffer any minister of the Christian religion to interfere in the teaching of those schools, whilst we permitted interference on the part of the Brahmins and other religious castes of Hindoos. He lamented, then, the answer which had been given by the noble Lord, because he feared that it might lead to misapprehension; and he could not sit quietly there and hear it stated that neutrality was to be strictly observed, without asking for an explanation of what that neutrality meant, and expressing his opinion that if the observance of neutrality were then to be announced, that announcement ought to be accompanied by a declaration of the opinion of the Government that the Christian religion was the only true religion, and that whilst they felt it was not their duty to endeavour to compel conversions, it was their duty to do all in their power, by means of religious instruction, and by placing the truth before the people of India, to accomplish that one great object for which we had been entrusted with the government of India; thus taking that course by which this country might become the honoured instrument of carrying out Christianity in conjunction with Christian civilization.
  MR. ROEBUCKsaid, that nothing but a deep sense of public duty could induce him to rise to enter on such a thorny path as that of religious controversy. The example, however, had been set him by the hon. Member for Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner). There was a very significant passage in a despatch of the Earl of Ellenborough, to which he wished to call attention as a guide in the government of India. That noble Lord said, that as a private man one ought not to do that, which as a public man, one condemned. As public men we should condemn any attempt in India to use our power for the purpose of proselytizing. If a man in power employed his powers of persuasion to lead men to the adoption of particular opinions, he must bring with him the power attached to his peculiar position, and if he was in power, that power ought not to be used for the purpose of proselytizing. He only rose to say, that he hoped that no man, in his de-

  2321
  sire to lead the people of India into the adoption of Christianity, and to induce them to think as he does—which was proselytizing in India—that no man would use that power to induce persons to become Christians. There would arise far better results to the people of India if they were governed on general principles of justice than to attempt to proselytize and to create Christians, so called, by missionaryizing the country, if he might use such a phrase.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he also was one of those who regretted that the passage from the despatch of the Earl of Ellen-borough should have been referred to, as it might be misunderstood by the country, and it certainly did not agree with what had been stated in "another place" by the noble Earl at the head of the Government. That noble Earl distinctly stated, in answer to a right rev. Prelate, that he wished to carry out in India the policy which, when at the head of the Colonial Office, he carried out in Ceylon, and entirely to disconnect the Government of this country with the maintenance of idolatrous worship in that country. That was quite contrary to what had fallen from the noble Lord the President of the Board of Control. He (Mr. Kinnaird) quite agreed with the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield that the authority of the Government ought not to be brought to bear on matters of religion; but the proper course was not neutrality but toleration of all religions. Christian converts were as much entitled to protection and employment as any other persons; but the complaint was, that in India the Christians had not that fair and equal justice which was extended to all other sects, and now they were told there was to be no change in that respect. That statement would not be very satisfactory to the country. He regretted that the question had been mooted, for during the whole of the discussions upon the Home Government of India he had carefully abstained from bringing it before the House, but as it had been raised, he could only express his regret that the noble Lord had not made a statement as plain and distinct as that which had been made by the noble Earl at the head of the Government.
  MR. BOWYERsaid, he could not understand what the hon. Member for Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) wanted. He had got three Protestant bishoprics in India made out of the revenues of India. The hon. Gentleman said that the influence of the Government ought to be used
  2322
  in the propagation of Christianity. [Mr. SPOONER: No!] He (Mr. Bowyer) certainly understood the hon. Gentleman to say that we were not to use force or bribery, but to employ the moral influence of the Government in the promotion of Christianity. The hon. Gentleman, however, had not settled what Christianity was to be taught. The hon. Gentleman, no doubt, thought him (Mr. Bowyer) no better than a Hindoo, or any other idolater, and his hoe Friend behind him (Mr. Gilpin) no doubt did not come off much better in the opinion of the hon. Member, for though he might not think him an idolater, he probably did not come up to his idea of a Christian. Before the hon. Gentleman wished the Government to teach Christianity, he must decide what sort of Christianity they were to teach; and when he had solved that question, it would be time enough to undertake the task. He (Mr. Bowyer) wished to ask a question. One of the questions asked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. Vernon Smith) was, whether instructions were to be sent out to India to proclaim Her Majesty's name and authority. It would be recollected that he (Mr. Bowyer) had put on the Votes a notice of Motion, that after the transfer of India to the Crown the word "India" should be added to the style and title of the Crown. The noble Lord the Member for Tiverton had said that there could be no doubt of the effect which the name of the Queen would have on the Natives of India; but, in his (Mr. Bowyer's) opinion, the full advantage of the influence of the Queen's name over the Natives could not be obtained unless India were added to the style and title of the Crown. This would be in accordance with precedent, for history showed that whenever a regal or quasi regal territory was acquired by the Crown a corresponding addition was made to the Royal style and title. Thus in the case of Wales, which, having been added to the Royal dominions, was given in perpetuity to the eldest son of the Sovereign; so, also, in the case of France, in the time of Edward III., when a large part of that country was in the possession of the King of England; or that of Scotland, after the accession of James I., and in that of Ireland, all of which countries were contained in the style and title of the Crown; and since the union with Scotland and Ireland, the term "Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" included the

  2323
  style and title which had been heretofore adopted. He was told that if this was done it would lead to an expectation on the part of the Colonies that they should be dealt with in the same manner; but there was no reason why that should be done, as it would be a novelty, and it was never the custom for a Sovereign of this country to take the style and title of a colony. He, therefore, would repeat his wish that some means might be devised for including India among the titles of Royalty, borne by Her Majesty.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, the declaration of the noble Lord the President of the Board of Control would, he believed, do more to remove the dangerous distrust which now pervaded the minds of the people of India than the most brilliant and continuous successes of our arms. He would, therefore, congratulate the noble Lord upon his declaration, upon his liberal feelings, his enlarged views, and his generous sentiments. From personal experience he could deny the existence of any prejudice against Christian converts in India. He had on former occasions given instances of their employment in the public service and of other advantages being conferred upon them. The principle in India had been invariably to select men for the public service according to their capacity for the duties they were required to perform, quite irrespective of their religious views or sentiments. It had also been the object of the Indian Government for many years to separate itself entirely from idolatrous usages and practices. It had given up the Pilgrim tax at Allahabad, and had abandoned the lands it held from Juggernaut, valued at three lacs of rupees. It would eventually entirely disconnect itself from the maintenance of idolatrous worship, but it could not do so all at once. He would repeat that the declaration of the noble Lord would do more for us in India than anything that had been spoken during the whole progress of the discussion in that House.
  MR. GILPINsaid, he also rose to express his unqualified satisfaction with the manner in which the question had been treated by the noble Lord. Those who truly desired the spread of Christianity in India would wish to see Christianity kept free from those horrible atrocities which, whether committed by black men or by white men, were utterly repugnant to its genius and its nature, and only asked for a fair field for the operations and exertions
  2324
  of those who were disposed to teach Christianity for its own sake. He could not understand that system of neutrality which supported bishoprics out of the funds of the State, and sought to promote Christianity in India only by the questionable establishment of a State Church.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, when the Lords' Amendments to the India Bill were brought down for consideration to this House, we made five objections to those Amendments, but agreed to a considerable number. The Lords have considered the objections of the Commons, and have waved their opinions in a majority of the cases. On three heads they have waved their opinions, and those three heads contain by far the most important objections of the Commons. But they have invited us to reconsider our objections on two points, and I wish to direct the consideration of the House to those points, feeling sure the House will reconsider their opinions in the same calm and considerate manner in which the Lords have expressed theirs. The first objection is not the one which has been read by the Clerk at the Table, but I will advert to it at once, in order that I may at the same time tender the advice which I would humbly venture to offer them on the subject. The first objection is contained in Clause 54, and it appears to have originated in a misconception, into which it is not remarkable that we should have fallen, because the language of the Amendment of the Lords is so obscure as to justify the interpretation which we had put upon it. The clause in question deals with the circumstance of instructions being sent out to India commanding a foreign war, and it is there provided that, when an order to commence hostilities is sent to India, the fact of such order having been sent shall be communicated to Parliament within three months after the sending of such order if Parliament be sitting; and, if Parliament be not sitting, then within one month after the next meeting of Parliament. There appeared to be some inconsistency in that language, and we proposed that one month should be inserted in both cases. But what was intended by the Amendment of the Lords was, that notice should be given of the fact within three months if Parliament should be sitting, and if it should not be sitting then within one month after the resumption of its deliberations after the lapse of that term. The Amendment of the Lords, though obscurely expressed,

  2325
  was really wisely conceived, for, suppose the Government sent out orders to India to commence hostilities, a month would elapse before the Governor General could receive them. By that time, under the clause as amended by the Commons, the orders would have been communicated to Parliament; but on the arrival of the instructions in India the Governor General might possibly be unprepared at the moment to obey them, and in that case he would have no time to make the Home Government acquainted with his position. The communication of the order for the commencement of hostilities, however, would then have been made to Parliament, and so the very Power against which it was intended to wage war would become aware of the policy of this country before the Governor General was in a situation to give effect to it. Therefore the Lords suggested that in any event the term of three months should be allowed to elapse before the communication of the order to Parliament, so as to admit of time being given for communication with the Governor General. I hope the House will reconsider that Amendment, which is now sent down in language that cannot be misunderstood, and I venture humbly to recommend it as one calculated to promote the public advantage. I will now proceed to the consideration of the other Amendment of the Lords, which is one of great interest at this moment. The interest of this Amendment arises principally from this circumstance, that to a certain degree it has been supposed to affect the action of the competitive principle in public appointments. If I might presume to give an opinion on that subject, I would say that I am a firm, though not an extravagant or headstrong supporter of the competitive principle for public appointments. In the theory of that principle I entirely concur; but I know well that theory and practice do not always agree, and I have viewed the application of that principle with, I will not say great anxiety, but certainly with all that interest which attends the application of a novel principle to public affairs. As far as I am able to form an opinion, I think that principle, in its practical application, has been entirely successful. It has come out of the ordeal of proof a pure and perfect weapon; but still I cannot disguise from myself that it is a principle very novel in its character and likely to have important results, and I cannot suppose that on a question of that novelty and magnitude there can be throughout the com-
  2326
  munity a perfect identity of sympathy and opinion. I am not, therefore, at all surprised that, when the Amendment of the Lord came down, we found an objection on their part to tie up in an Act of Parliament the application of the competitive principle, which they fully recognize, to so important a branch of the public service as that of the civil service in India. So far, therefore, from thinking that the Amendment was not entitled to the utmost respect and consideration, I felt the natural force of that objection, and the natural suspicion and jealousy with which a House of Parliament is no doubt bound to calculate all the consequences of a novel course. This House, however, decided after deliberation not to adopt the Amendment of the Lords, but to adhere to the clause in the Bill which gave what may be called a Parliamentary title to employment in the civil service of India obtained by unrestricted competition, and the Lords, respecting the decision, had yielded, and not ungracefully, to the opinion of the House on the subject. There is, however, another clause of a different character, in which that principle was to a certain degree involved, but on which no discussion has, as yet, taken place. To that clause the Lords object upon constitutional grounds, and to it I would draw the attention of the House. It certainly does seem rather inconsistent that in the very Bill which provides that Her Majesty shall appoint to all military Commissions, we should, at the same time, insert a provision which makes the appointments to a portion of those Commissions entirely independent of the will of Her Majesty. In that light the Lords have viewed this provision, and they are apprehensive that inconvenience may arise from a departure from a constitutional principle which has always prevailed in the military service, with respect to such appointments. As the clause went up to the Lords it was arranged, as in the case of the civil service, that these Commissions should be attained by open competition; and that according to the order of superiority, those who were successful should be appointed. Now, it does not appear that the Lords at all object to the principle of competition being applied to the scientific branches of the Indian army. That appears to be recognized as a course which it was desirable to promote and secure. Since the year 1853, the civil service of the East India Company has been open to unrestricted competition, and the civil patronage has been dis-

  2327
  tributed entirely according to the order of merit, although it was not provided in the Act of that year that such a proceeding should absolutely be followed. It was there only provided that there should be public examinations, according to the regulations drawn up by the Secretary of State, and which should be approved by Her Majesty in Council, and that a copy of those regulations thus approved should be laid before Parliament, in order that Parliament might be aware of the existing regulations, with any alterations that might take place in them. Now, what the Lords object to in the 34th clause is not the principle of competition, or its being secured with respect to the scientific branches of the army as amply as it has been secured with regard to the civil service since 1853, but to this being done in a manner which would seem to violate the constitutional principle which hitherto has prevailed in all appointments to the military service. I am sure I do not mistake the feelings of the House, when I say that there can be no desire on our part to trench upon the prerogatives of Her Majesty. Those prerogatives during her beneficent reign have been so discreetly and wisely exercised, that there is a very general opinion throughout all classes of the community, that their existence has been beneficial to our liberties and to the good government of the country. But, in having to consider so large a question as the transfer of the government of India from the Company to the Crown, we have been placed in a difficult and delicate position, which required on the part of both branches of the Legislature very judicious discrimination. In this great work we have added greatly to the regality of Her Majesty. We have invested her with new prerogatives, new privileges, and new powers; but in doing that we have felt it our duty to insert conditions and regulations with respect to those new privileges, and prerogatives which we should not have thought of introducing, if we had had to deal with the ancient power belonging to the Crown. What has been the great difficulty which has prevented long before this the termination of that anomalous government of India which was carried on by the Company? It has been felt for nearly a century that it was a great anomaly that India should belong to the English, and yet should not be directly governed by the Sovereign of England. But the difficulty of solving this problem was, that no one could devise any means by which we could deal
  2328
  with the vast patronage of India. I was always said, that it was more natural and would be more beneficial that the government of India should be carried on directly by the Sovereign of England; but there has been, in the first place, a great Apprehension that the power, of the Crown would be dangerously increased by the possession of all the patronage which would result from such a government, and there has been, secondly, a great suspicion in this country, remembering that India was gained by the energies of the middle classes, and that these classes have long possessed the patronage of that great empire, which they had fairly won, that the proposed change to a more direet and satisfactory polity could not be effected without injury to the legitimate interests of the bulk of the community, and a dangerous increase of the power of the Crown. It appears to me that that difficulty, which has baffled some of our wisest statesmen and the wisdom of many Parliaments, we have in a great degree solved by the creation and development of that very competitive principle of which I have been speaking. Those who before had to consider this question had not the means or the machinery by which they could meet the difficulty. We have met them in the present instance most efficiently and completely. Let us see how the patronage of India, as regards the middle classes, after this great revolution has taken place, of the transfer from the Company to the Crown, is affected by the Bill as it comes down from the Lords. Let us see whether, in accomplishing this great work, we have been mindful of the interests of those of our fellow-subjects who have such strong claims upon our consideration. The whole of the civil service, as the Bill comes from the Lords, is secured entirely to those who deserve to obtain, and who are qualified to possess these important offices; in other words, the whole of the civil administration of India is secured by a Parliamentary title to the great bulk of the community. If we look to the military portion of the patronage, we shall find that it will be distributed by a body of men who, in position, character, attainments, and connections, resemble in a great measure the late Court of Directors—of a body which must consist in part of members of the late Court, and which, as far as the nominated members are concerned, will be composed of gentlemen of Indian experience and connections; so that the larger portion of the military

  2329
  patronage also will be distributed among the middle classes, through almost the same conduits as heretofore, except with this advantage, that the new distributors will not be checked in their action by the importunities of that contracted constituency which exercised a baneful influence upon the Court of Directors. So far, then, as those two sources of patronage are concerned, they will be naturally distributed or attained in a manner which will ensure the diffusion of the great mass of that patronage through the community. But we have thought it right, in deference to the enlightened spirit of the age, to withdraw from the distribution of the Council those military commissions which relate to the scientific branches of the army. We have thought that they ought to be obtained by the same intellectual merit and qualification which we would secure for the civil administration, and it is now proposed by the Amendments of the Lords that, in addition to giving the whole of the civil service, and the greater portion of the military appointments with a Parliamentary title to the middle classes, so also commissions of a scientific character in the army should be obtained by the same section of the community upon precisely similar conditions. Between the Amendment of the Lords, and the clause as it was first drawn, there is this difference that the constitutional forms which we ought to respect are more completely observed, but the same advantages are secured. Under these circumstances, I trust the House will consider without prejudice this particular Amendment of the other branch of the Legislature—will upon reflection, be of opinion that it is an Amendment made in no spirit of hostility to that application of the competitive principle to the scientific branches of the army which we seek to maintain, or dictated by any other feeling than a respect to constitutional usages, and will be prepared, in the same spirit of conciliation and reciprocal respect which has attended these discussions, to accept the alterations inserted by the Lords. Let me impress upon the House one consideration which ought not to be absent from our minds in concluding our labours upon this important question. There has rarely been a subject of legislation more important than the one with which we have dealt in this Session respecting the Home Government of India. Let the House recollect, that for upwards of seventy years this question has been, at intervals, the subject of Parlia-
  2330
  mentary discussion; that it has given rise to the greatest acerbities of feeling and prolonged acrimony of political sentiments; that it has convulsed Cabinets, has dissolved Parliaments, and that finally it has been recognized by the country as one of those knots that no ingenuity and no impartiality could ever untie. I claim no merit for the Government in having brought this matter to some satisfactory conclusion. I claim some merit for Parliament and some for the House of Commons; but I claim the chief merit for the more enlightened spirit of the times in which we live, for the diffused education of the country where we have the happiness to be fellow-citizens, and the rising sense of the value which we all of us attribute to intellectual acquirements, and our recognition of them as a proper qualification for admission to civil office. This spirit has assisted us in bringing this Bill to its present state. It is, I think, only surprising that there have not been greater differences of opinion between the two Houses and among ourselves in this House; but what I would impress on the House of Commons is this—the great desirability there is that this legislation should be brought to a conclusion without leaving on any side and in any quarter, in any state or condition of this country, any feeling of irritation or jealousy. It is impossible that the middle classes, whose claims have been urged so freely, fairly, and constantly in this House and in other places—it is impossible that the great body of the community can for a moment feel that their claims have not been regarded. We have effected this change, if the House to-night consents to this final step; and so far as the patronage of the great empire of India—won, I freely admit, by the energies of the middle classes—is concerned, the great bulk will be obtained and enjoyed by those middle classes, not only with the certainty which they enjoyed in old days, but with far more honour and by a process infinitely more beneficial. Let not, therefore, the other House think that, in coming to what I may call a happy conclusion, we obtained that result by any disregard in this House of the fair prerogatives of the Crown. I am sure that those prerogatives are duly estimated, and will be, if necessary, properly protected in this House; and let us, by acceding to this suggestion of the Lords, conclude our labours with this conviction, that we have, after all our pains, established, on the whole, a home Govern-

  2331
  ment for India adapted to the circumstances with which it will have to deal, and have at the same time effected this object without creating jealousy, suspicion, or dissatisfaction in any portion of the community over which Her Majesty reigns. I trust the House will, therefore, consent to the Amendment which the Lords have proposed to the 34th clause; and I can only say, on the part of the Government, that in making that recommendation we do it with the full and frank intention of establishing, with respect to the scientific branches, that wise and beneficial competition which will prevail in the civil service of India. It will be one of the first duties of my noble Friend, if the House accedes to this proposition, to draw up regulations which will rule the examinations in question, and which, when approved by Her Majesty in Council, will be laid on the table of this House. They will then be open to the criticism and vigilance of the House, and whenever any alterations are made, they will likewise be announced to the House. We shall then have the satisfaction of having established the competitive principle by Act of Parliament throughout the whole civil service of India; of having secured to the great body of the community the free enjoyment of military patronage, by its distribution through a Council sympathizing with them; and of having, at the same time, secured the competitive principle even in the scientific branches of the army, and that in a manner which no one can say has attacked or weakened any prerogative or right of any person in this country, from the Sovereign on her throne to the humblest of her subjects.
  Motion made and Question proposed,—
  "That this House doth not insist on its disagreement to the Amendment made by the Lords in page 11, line 6."
  MR. ROEBUCKsaid, that in his opinion the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last had put the matter before the House on an unfair footing. There were three services in India to be considered—the civil service, the engineers and artillery, and, lastly, the army. If it were thought right that the competitive system should be introduced into the first two, why should it not be introduced into the third also? But it was now proposed that, whereas candidates were to be elected to the civil and the scientific branches by competition, they should be elected to the army by a certain other mode. This, he confessed, he could
  2332
  not understand. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that if the House did not agree to the Lords' Amendments, the prerogative of the Crown would be assailed, and that that prerogative had always been exercised in so mild and harmless a manner that no possible harm could arise from conceding in this matter. But if that ground were taken, he would ask whether the prerogative of the Crown had not been trenched upon already with reference to the first two branches of the service? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had also argued that the great difficulty heretofore felt in changing the Home Government of India arose from the apprehension which existed lest, by throwing so large an amount of patronage into the hands of the Crown, the equilibrium of society, which it was now so desirable to retain, might be endangered. In reply to that, he would ask in what other possible way could such a catastrophe as that apprehended be averted than by throwing the whole service open to unrestricted competition. That House had better apply itself, not to arranging the distribution of patronage between the aristocracy and the middle classes, but to obtain the best possible instruments for the public service, and this could only be effected by encouraging the principle of competitive examination. In the choice of clerks he considered that the name of every candidate should be put upon the list without the exercise of any patronage whatever, that a register of such names should be kept, and that if there were ten places and a thousand candidates, the thousand candidates should be examined. This would do away with the danger of upsetting that equilibrium the reversal of which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer so much apprehended. A great mistake, however, existed on that subject. For instance, it was said that competition determined the appointment of clerks in the public offices. But what was the fact? He had that day, through the influence of a member of the Government, obtained the privilege of getting the name of a young man placed upon the list for competition, but this was an act of patronage. He was obliged for it, because the probability was, that if the name had not been so put down, the young man would never have had the opportunity of competing; but he considered the whole system of patronage in such matters much to be deprecated. He trusted the House would

  2333
  not accede to the Lords' Amendment, but that they would insist on a perfect, open, and complete competition, in every case.
  SIR HENRY RAWLINSONobserved, that the only question before the House was with reference to competition for the scientific services. He did not oppose the Motion that the House should agree with the Lords' Amendment, but he thought the nature of the clause had been entirely misunderstood when it was supposed to affect the Queen's prerogative. It must be remembered that the system of appointments in the Indian army differed entirely from that in the royal army. Her Majesty never did nominate directly—and it was not proposed by this Bill that she should nominate directly—to any branch of the Indian army. Her Majesty merely appointed on the recommendation of the Secretary of State, and could it make any difference whether that recommendation was the result of competition or of private patronage? If officers of the artillery and engineers were not to obtain appointments by competition, they would obtain them in the first instance by the nomination of members of the Council, some of whom would not owe their position to the Secretary of State or to the Crown, but to the votes of the Court of Directors. So far as the prerogative was concerned, it seemed to him that there could be no difference between recommendations which were the result of competition and recommendations which were the result of private patronage. Still he was not prepared to oppose the Lords' Amendment, and he would state why. The 34th clause did not provide for an exclusive competition, for the word "only" in the civil service clause was designedly omitted from the clause relating to the scientific branches, in order that the establishment at Addiscombe might—if it were thought advisable by the Secretary of State—be maintained. The object was to secure a double competition, the open competition proposed by the clause, and the limited competition of Addiscombe. The system of competition had already been successfully adopted in the civil service. It was now proposed that the same experiment should be tried in the case of the artillery and engineers, and he entertained a confident belief that it would be equally successful in those branches of the service. He thought it desirable, however, that the establishment at Addiscombe should be kept up, and it was scarcely worth while to insist on disagreeing with
  2334
  the Lords' Amendment, for whether the competition was thrown entirely open, or the limited competition of Addiscombe was retained, the candidates for the scientific branches of the service would be drawn from the same class as at present.
  SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, the question under discussion seemed to become more and more complicated, for it now appeared that there had been some private understanding that there was not to be an open competition, but that Addiscombe was to have its chance, and that those candidates who proved their competency would not necessarily receive appointments. No intimation of such an arrangement had, as far as he was aware, been given by any Member of Her Majesty's Government during any of the discussions that had taken place; and, notwithstanding the very able and comprehensive speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he felt bound—more so, indeed, than he had felt himself previously—to vote for disagreeing with the Lords' Amendment. He entirely concurred in the opinion of the hon. and gallant Member (Sir H. Rawlinson) as to the beneficial results which might be anticipated from competitive examinations; and the right hon. Gentleman had also made some observations for which he thanked him. He had borne testimony to the success with which the principle had been applied to the civil service in India. The question had very justly, during the present discussion, been connected with the subject of patronage, about which not a word had been said in the other House, where the question had been treated only as affecting the prerogative; but one of his main objects, in common with many other hon. Members, was to withdraw from the hands of the Minister a great portion of the patronage which this Bill would place at the disposal of the Government. He thought, also, that the effect of the competitive system upon the military information of the country ought not to be lost sight of in considering this question. The noble Member for Tiverton (Viscount Palmerston) had said on a former occasion that we were a warlike nation without being a military nation, and it was to be regretted that the people did not possess such an amount of military information as would be most useful in the defence of this country and its possessions against foreign Powers. It had been stated by two eminent Members of that House, one of them the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland,

  2335
  who had strongly advocated the adoption of the competitive system, that its effect was to give a stimulus to scholastic education throughout the country. The noble Lord at the head of the Government (the Earl of Derby) had spoken on this subject in "another place" in a most conciliatory tone, but all the noble Lords who had expressed their opinions had not followed his example. One of those noble Lords (Lord Campbell)—one of the highest dignitaries of the law—had accused, that House of having lost its senses on this subject. That noble Lord had said that the House of Commons had gone wild, and he added that the House of Commons ought to be resisted in this course. [The hon. and gallant Member was stopped by a call of "Order" from Mr. SPEAKER.] He must say he thought the noble and learned Lord had done himself injustice, for he believed the profession in which that noble and learned Lord had gained such distinguished and deserved honour was more exposed to the principle of competition than perhaps any other in this country. Not a day passes in which the learned Members of our bar were not competitors, in fact, in these examinations, for the highest prizes of the law. The noble Lord said he was in favour of discriminative examinations, though what he meant by that term the noble and learned Lord did not very clearly explain. A noble Earl, in "another place," contended that the introduction of a system of competitive examinations would produce a social revolution, that the sons of gentlemen and of officers in the army would be excluded from the service, and that in future the appointments would be confined to the sons of rich grocers and persons of that class. Those statements were, however, wholly at variance with the facts which had been brought forward by the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland when he was a Member of that House. He showed that the system of competitive examination in Ireland had worked in a totally contrary direction—that ninety-five out of one hundred of the young men examined belonged to the most respectable classes of society, being the sons of gentlemen and men of education. He therefore regarded the argument on the other side on this subject as altogether unworthy of notice. He had the fullest confidence in the noble Lord now at the head of the Board of Control; but the noble Lord had no permanent tenure of office, and then he could not forget that while the Members of the Government in that House were in
  2336
  favour of competitive examination, and only opposed a technical difficulty to its being enforced by Act of Parliament, the head of the Government in the other House spoke of the principle of competition as being "on its trial," and thought it would be "highly injudicious to tie up the hands of the Executive Government," and oblige them to take the persons who had sustained the best examinations. It did not, therefore, appear to be in the contemplation of the noble Earl to give appointments as a matter of course to those who sustained the best examinations. But, without detaining the House further, he would only add that, in his opinion, the competitive principle was the best security that could be adopted for securing the efficiency of the services in the Indian army, and, therefore, he hoped they would disagree with the Lords' Amendment.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I will in one or two words explain the grounds on which I mean to give my vote. I am one of those who are entirely in favour of the principle of appointments by competitive examination. I think it is a great improvement of recent times; but at the same time it is not universally applicable. With regard to the Civil Service I think it is an excellent system, provided always that the standard of examination is not too high, and that persons are not expected to be full of more knowledge than is necessary as a test of their capacity for the service. My opinion is that it is also a good system for the officers of the scientific branches of the army, because in regard to them high attainments are of the first importance. At the same time, it is right to admit that the application of the system to the scientific branches of the army is but of recent standing; and, therefore, those who entertain a different opinion from me may fairly be entitled to require a somewhat longer experience of the practical result of the system than has yet been obtained. My hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down is right in saying that the application of the system of competitive examinations to the scientific branches of the British army has been perfectly satisfactory, and especially in that country of which he is so distinguished an ornament, and which has contributed a very large number of young men who are a credit to the profession with which they are connected, I disagree, however, with the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck), when he speaks of the ap-

  2337
  plicability of competitive examinations for officers of the line. The test of learning which you would apply to a young man who is a candidate for a commission would be no necessary test of his capacity for the service in which he is to be engaged. It would be just as if you wished to find out whether or not a man was an excellent pugilist, and the test you applied was whether he could run fast. The test is not at all of the kind which would prove whether the man was capable of discharging the duties which he had to perform. My opinion, then, is that the House is right in maintaining for the Civil Service of India the system of competitive examinations which has now been established for several years. I am also of opinion that it would be expedient to establish the same system for the scientific branches of the Indian army which you have established for the scientific branches of the general army, and as it appears to me that principle is conceded by every one. So far as I understand the question we are now called on to determine, it is simply one as to the manner in which the competitive examinations is to be adopted. I think there is great force in the argument that it would be a departure from the ordinary principles of the constitution if we were to pass an act of Parliament which should render it imperative on the Sovereign to give commissions to particular individuals. I think the regulations which shall establish a competitive examination for the scientific branches of the Indian army ought to be based on Orders in Council coming from the royal authority, and not be a system imposed by a standing law. If, therefore, I am to understand from the Government that they are prepared to pledge themselves that they will issue an Order in Council establishing competitive examinations for the scientific branches of the Indian army, I should prefer that mode of accomplishing the object to having it done by Act of Parliament. The question is simply as to the mode of doing the thing, and it is not a question whether the thing is to be done. We have now arrived at the moment when this Bill must pass into a law. We have all of us in the course of the discussions that have taken place been compelled to surrender opinions which we have entertained, and the result will be a general compromise on the part of all those who have taken any part in carrying forward the measure. As the Lords have adopted almost all the recommendations
  2338
  we made, I am inclined to think that it would be graceful on our part to yield to them upon this question. I think, also, that the method of proceeding by Order in Council would be more in accordance with the general principles of the constitution than if we were to enforce the principle we are in favour of by an Act of Parliament.
  MR. WHITEsaid, he should be sorry to impute to the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government ignorance of constitutional forms, or to say that he attached not the slightest value to the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the prerogative of the Crown; but he must aver that the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleman had wholly ignored the essential difference between the army of England and the army of India. He did not dispute the authority of the Crown with regard to the English army, but then there was a check upon it. Had they not a Mutiny Bill every year, and did they not grant supplies? There was no such check with regard to the army of India. He, as belonging to the middle classes, should stand by his order. He was not disposed to hand over to the Crown such power and such authority without those constitutional checks which they had a right to impose. They had a right to insist upon their original Bill; and as he considered that any one who was right could not be ridiculous, he, if he stood alone. should divide the House.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, that if, as he understood was the case, the Government intended to adhere in the Indian army to the practice adopted in the Queen's army—if cadets intended for the scientific branches were to compete for entry into a military college—he should vote with the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) on this question.
  SIR JAMES GRAHAM: Before the President of the Board of Control addresses the House, it will perhaps be convenient for him to hear the opinion of different Members, who, like myself, have taken some little interest in the subject now under discussion. I entirely agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this question of Indian patronage has really been the obstacle, certainly for half a century, to the transfer of the government of India from the Company to the Crown. It has really been at the root of the anomaly which has continued to the present time the government of that mighty empire in the hands of a commercial body. I have always felt the right solution of that ques-

  2339
  tion to be one of immense constitutional difficulty; and among other reasons which swayed me throughout this Session, in an earnest desire for the postponement of the decision upon this transfer of the government, was the difficulty which I felt respecting the future distribution of this Indian patronage. Now, I am bound to say, that in my humble judgment the Bill before us, as it went up from the Commons to the Lords, did in a very fair manner solve the difficulty by the distribution of patronage which it provided. To Her Majesty directly was given, by the 29th clause of this Bill, a great accession of patronage. The Governor General of India, the Governors of the Presidencies, the fourth member of the Council of India, and the Advocate General—all these officers are henceforth to be appointed by Her Majesty under warrant and by her sign manual. It placed these offices at the sole disposal of Her Majesty, acting by her constitutional advisers, whereas heretofore none of these appointments were made by the Crown; and with respect, I think, only to one of them, that of the Governor General (I am not quite sure as to the Governors of the Presidencies), the power of veto only was heretofore vested in Her Majesty. Then with respect to the civil patronage, as has been already stated, the arrangement which has prevailed for three years under an Order in Council—namely, that the civil service shall be open to the free competition of all classes—has now been confirmed by a clause assented to by both Houses, and is thus rendered irrevocable, except by a repeal of this Act duly sanctioned by the Legislature. Such a concession appears to me a most important one. It recognizes, for the first time in an Act of Parliament, the principle of open competition with reference to a great branch of the public service. Much, therefore, as it appears to me, is gained by the measure as it stands. But then comes the constitutional question:—By tying up that, or other portions of the patronage, do we infringe the prerogative? The House of Lords, in their Reasons, seem to assert that such an infringement is involved in the clause, as we sent it up to them, respecting a portion of the Indian patronage. Now, I cannot draw that fine distinction between the military patronage and other large portions of the civil patronage. In the very clause which gives to Her Majesty the great appointments I have mentioned, those of the Governor General and
  2340
  the Governors of the Presidencies, there is a special reservation of another very important branch of patronage relating to the Councils of the Governors of the different Presidencies; and there is a statutable assignment of that patronage for ever, not to Her Majesty, but to the Secretary of State in Council, with the concurrence of a majority of his Council. The clause does not say that Her Majesty's pleasure shall be taken. It does not even provide that these appointments shall take place under the sign manual. As I read the clause, these appointments are absolutely vested in the Secretary of State and a majority of his Council. Here, then, is a very important branch of patronage not to be exercised by the Crown; and with respect to the junior members of the civil service, I have already stated that these appointments are, by the consent of the House of Lords, henceforth to be given to those who upon an examination shall stand first in point of merit. The constitutional objection, therefore, whatever may be its force, appears to me to apply equally to both these provisions. Now, it is very remarkable that in the Bill of the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) it was provided that there should be an attestation in respect to the European troops, to be furnished by Her Majesty in Council. The Bill sent up to the Lords provides no such attestation, and does not deal in the slightest degree with the transfer to the Crown of the attesting power with respect to the European portion of the Indian army. Clause 40, in the noble Lord's Bill, declared that all Indian officers henceforth should be the officers of Her Majesty. There is no such declaration in the Bill which we sent up to the other House. We have hitherto studiously reserved the entire question of the Indian army. It was so stated by the noble Lord (Lord Stanley), who, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Vernon Smith), said that the whole question of the Indian army was referred to a Commission here, and partly also to a Commission in India, and that the subjects connected with the reorganization of that army were not to be mixed up with the question at present under discussion. Now, Clause 33 of this Bill, as we sent it up to the Lords, has drawn quite rightly the distinction between the military and the civil services. It has most guardedly recognized, to a certain extent, the authority of the Crown, yet without making a complete concession of the whole appointments

  2341
  to the Indian army. With regard to the civil service, it is distinctly provided that those persons only, without exception, who shall succeed in open competition shall be appointed; and as to the military service, Clause 33 enacts that the names of all persons nominated in the manner which the Bill provides shall be submitted and recommended to Her Majesty. But there is a reservation as to the scientific branches—the artillery and engineers; and in the clause immediately following that to which I have adverted, even with respect to them, as we sent it up to the Lords, persons who receive the certificate of superior merit are to be recommended for these appointments; clearly, therefore, recognizing the general controlling power of the Crown—not going the length as regards the military which we went as regards the civil service—but adhering to the principle that open competition in the Indian army, as in Her Majesty's army in the scientific branches, ought to be the rule of appointment. Now, it only remains to consider the question as between an Order in Council and an enactment by statute. If I could bring myself to believe that the application of the statute to the Indian army, in which Her Majesty's authority is not now supreme, was a dangerous infringement of the prerogative, nothing would induce me to vote in favour of that principle. It appears to me, however, there is no such infraction of this prerogative. But we are told that we in this House are enamoured of this principle of open competition, and that it may with advantage be applied to ourselves. Now, I do not wish to bandy any jeers and gibes of that kind with the other House of Parliament. To do so would conduce neither to the dignity of either branch of the Legislature, nor be quite consistent with the public interests. I am, however, entitled, in reply to such an allusion, to ask where is hereditary wisdom to be found? In what consists the justice of the taunt that India must henceforward be governed by gentlemen to the exclusion of the middle classes—a gentleman being defined to be something between a Peer of Parliament and those who buy and sell? Is this, I would ask, the only argument that can be advanced against the system of competitive examinations? Who, let me ask, founded—who won our Indian empire? Those who bought and sold. Who extended it? Those who bought and sold. Who now transfer that empire to the Crown? Those who bought and sold—a
  2342
  company of merchants—merchants, forsooth! whose sons are now not thought worthy to have even inferior offices in India committed to their hands. But are the sons of those who buy and sell necessarily not entitled to the appellation of gentlemen? Definitions are dangerous, but I should, nevertheless, like to know what it is that constitutes a gentleman. Why, Sir, it appears to me that if a man be imbued with sound Christian principles, if he have received an enlightened and liberal education, if he be honest, and virtuous, and honourable—it appears to me, I say, that such a man is entitled to the appellation. And who will tell me that among the sons of those who buy and sell may not be found men possessing literary attainments and a refinement of mind which places them in a position to bear comparison with the highest born nobleman in the land? Who, let me ask, were the conquerors of India? From what class have they sprung? Who was Clive? The son of a yeoman. Who was Munro? The son of a Glasgow merchant. Who was Malcolm? The son of a sheep farmer upon the Scotch borders:—
  "Curibus parvis et paupere terra
  Missus in imperium magnum."
  These, Sir are the men who have won for us our Indian empire, and I entertain no fear that the sons of those who buy and sell, and who enter the Indian service by means of this principle of open competition, will fail to maintain a high position in our army, or that they will do anything to dishonour the English name. I have none of those fears, therefore, with respect to the adoption of this principle which are in some quarters entertained. I believe it gives a greater security to the appointment of efficient men than a mere system of patronage would afford. Patronage is liable to be constantly abused for personal or political purposes. It operates in many instances in cases in which the person who makes the appointment has little or no knowledge of the person upon whom the appointment is conferred. Open competition, on the contrary, brings the man before you. And what are his claims when he does present himself? In the first place, he brings with him the assurance that he is a man of industrious habits. He also affords some guarantee that he is a man of great self-control; that his life has been spent in virtuous pursuits, inasmuch as his attainments point out a preference for mental as contrasted with sensual enjoyments. Then, what is

  2343
  the ennobling spirit of his life? Ambition. A desire for honourable fame. What are the domestic virtues which he exhibits? A desire to win the favour and approbation of his friends, and eventually, in many cases, to contribute to the support of aged parents and other relatives. Such are the moral qualities which the principle of open competition will evince and secure, and upon these grounds I for one prefer that principle deliberately to patronage with all its corrupting influences. I cannot believe that I am violating any public duty or infringing any prerogative of the Crown in advocating the extension to a small portion of the appointments in the military service in India of a principle which Parliament has consented to apply to the whole of the Civil Service in that country. I cannot see the fine-drawn distinction which appears to be made between the two services; and if I am driven to a division, I shall feel compelled to record my vote against the Amendment which has been introduced into this clause in the other House of Parliament. At the same time I will put it to the House whether, under all the circumstances, it be really right to go to a division. I wish to pay no fine compliment to the noble Lord the President of the Board of Control. He has told us in emphatic terms that he would rather resign his office tomorrow than take any step which, in his conscience and judgment, he believed to be subversive of the principle for which he, in common with myself, has contended. In the honour of the noble Lord I place the most implicit reliance. I am perfectly willing to place trust in him, but I must be permitted to say that I do not think he now knows all the difficulties with which this Amendment is surrounded. I feel confident, however, that he would not give to it his support if he were not of opinion that, consistently with his duty, he could uphold the principle which I advocate. I am also prepared to admit that there is this difference between the application of the principle of open competition to the civil and its extension to the military service. In the case of the former you have experience to guide you; while in the case of the latter you do not as yet possess that salutary advantage. If, moreover, we leave this important question for the present, subject to be dealt with by an order in Council, experience will soon come to our assistance and tell us whether it be or be not desirable to fix by means of a legislative enactment the footing upon which
  2344
  it is for the future to stand. Having made these observations, I beg again to repeat my adherence to the principle of unrestricted competition, and if, therefore, the House should go to a division—a course of which I doubt the policy—it will be my duty to vote against the Amendment to which the noble Lord asks us to assent.
  LORD STANLEY: I concur with the right hon. Gentleman in every word which he has said with respect to the advantages of the system of open competition as opposed to the system of patronage. I agree with him, moreover, in the comments which by implication he has made upon the remarks to which expression has been given elsewhere upon this subject, and I am quite willing to repeat this evening to the House the pledge which a few days ago I ventured to give—namely, that I would support no proposition, come from what quarter it might, which in my judgment was hostile to the principle of open and unrestricted competition. What we have now to consider, however, is, whether, owing to the Amendment which has been introduced into this clause, that principle is or is not really in danger. We are not at present dealing with appointments in the Civil Service, or in the non-scientific branches of the army. It has been agreed on all hands that the Civil Service should remain open. It has been agreed, also, that for the present, at all events, the competitive principle should not be applied to the non-scientific branches of the military service. We are dealing exclusively with the Artillery and Engineers. The question which we have to consider, however, is not whether the system of open competition should be applied in the case of admissions to these two branches of the service. To its adoption in those instances the Government has given its assent. The real point at issue is, whether the application of that system should be regulated by an Act of Parliament or an Order in Council. The framing of such an Order in Council will necessarily rest with myself, and neither I, nor the Government of which I am a Member, could come to this House and say that we had fulfilled our pledges if that Order in Council were not to sanction the adoption of this principle of open competition in its fullest extent. Well, then comes the question, in what consists the difference, practically speaking, between the clause, as amended by the other House of Parliament, and as it stood when we

  2345
  sent it up to that House? Merely in the circumstance that in the latter case the guarantee—for the maintenance of the principle of free competition was supposed to be contained—I say advisedly was supposed—in the Act itself, whereas, if the Amendment of the House of Lords be adopted, it will rest upon the security of an Order in Council, backed, as I believe, by the universal feeling of the public, and by the power of this House, to intervene at any future time in case the agreement that has been come to should not be observed. Now, I say, that this supposed guarantee appeared to be, rather than was, actually embodied in the clause as it left the House of Commons. The clause then provided, "that candidates who might be found entitled, &c., might be recommended for appointments according to the order of their proficiency." "Recommended;" yes, but not appointed. There was nothing in the clause as it originally stood to render it compulsory on the Crown to make those appointments. All that it made imperative was, that the Minister for India should "recommend" to the Crown those who had passed one of these competitive examinations in the order of their success. The clause, therefore, afforded no legal guarantee that they would receive the appointments to which they had become entitled. It, no doubt, gave you a moral guarantee upon the subject, and that guarantee, I contend, the clause, as amended, still contains. For my own part, I have great faith in the system of competition by means of examinations. It is of comparatively recent origin, but it has steadily made its way. Every year brings over to it some new converts from the ranks of those by whom it was at first opposed. It will, I believe, prove itself eventually to be stronger than all Governments and all Parliaments—superior to every influence which can be brought to bear against it. Holding that belief, I am the less solicitous about the precise degree of cogency which may be supposed to belong to the machinery by which this system is proposed to be carried into effect. I would now ask the House to consider what has been done by the supporters of the competitive principle during the progress of the measure under our notice. The scientific branches of the army were not open to competition of even a modified character, except in the case of that very limited competition which took place amongst those who had already been nominated to
  2346
  Addiscombe. Whatever may be done under the Order in Council in that direction is so much clear gain to the principle which we advocate. And this is not all: for though practically the civil service was open to competition after the pledge given by the Government of 1853, yet it was not until the present year that the pledge was embodied in an Act of Parliament, and thus placed on an irrevocable footing. I mention these facts, because I think hon. Gentlemen who object to this Amendment do not quite understand the advance that has been made in this respect. We have for the first time declared that a Parliamentary title shall be given to Executive appointments. That is a new principle, which has not hitherto prevailed in this country. That principle you have extended to the civil service. Let me say, in passing, that when you have once admitted the principle, and laid down a rule to give a Parliamentary title to one class of offices, it is very difficult to draw a distinction that will limit its application to the civil service only. I think, therefore, that the advocates of the competitive system have gained largely already. With respect to the military service, it is simply placed upon the same footing as was the civil service five years ago, when competition was established by Order in Council. Looking at that circumstance, and, seeing that the principle of a Parliamentary title to Executive appointments has already been recognized by both Houses, it seems to me that the difference between that which we proposed and that which the other House has adopted is so small that, considering upon how many points they have given way, we should be justified in accepting the Amendment of the House of Lords.
  MR. CONINGHAMsaid, he must declare his preference for a statutory regulation over a mere Order in Council. He was in favour of open and fair competition as opposed to a system of patronage; and when they looked back to the way in which the patronage of the Horse Guards, which was in reality the patronage of the Court, had been administered for the last few years, he saw no reason to add to that patronage which the Court already possessed. Therefore he declared himself most strongly and emphatically in favour of open competition; and if the House of Commons yielded on this question, they would give way on a point which he considered to be of the utmost importance.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 98; Noes 53: Majority 45.
  On the Lords' Amendment, in page 17, line 18,
  MR. GRIFFITHsaid, it appeared to him that the whole clause would be perfectly useless if that Amendment were retained, inasmuch as the announcement which it was proposed should be made to Parliament would merely state a fact which must previously have become known to the public.
  LORD STANLEYsaid, what the Lords really meant was that in no case should publicity be required within less than three months after the order for commencing hostilities was sent out. The reason for inserting three months he took to be this—namely, to enable the Governor General to communicate with the Government at home, after he had received the order, and before it was made known to Parliament. It might so happen that the Governor General might reply that he had no means, without receiving reinforcements, of commencing hostilities. In that case the order would have to be suspended, and it would be very inconvenient if, in the interval, the order had been communicated to Parliament and the public, and the enemy had become acquainted with the intentions of the Government.
  Resolved, that this House doth not insist on its disagreements to the Lords' Amendments in page 17, line 18.
  Lords' further Amendment to Clause 54 agreed to.

  REWARDS TO MEMBERS.—RESOLUTION.
  MR. SCHNEIDERsaid, he wished to give some explanation with reference to a question which he had put the other night to the Attorney General. That question arose out of the Resolution passed on the 22nd of June, on the Motion of the noble Lord the Member for the East Riding (Lord Hotham) relative to remuneration given to Members for business done in the House. That Resolution he believed to be utterly impracticable with reference to the purpose for which it was introduced; and could not be carried into effect. He fully agreed with the spirit of the Resolution, but had divided the House against it, because he thought it highly inexpedient that a Resolution should be placed on the books of the House which must be continually evaded. He wished the House clearly to understand, that if this feeling
  2348
  which induced him and those who voted with him to oppose this Resolution, and he thought it only fair that this explanation should be put upon record as their motives had been much misinterpreted; but the language was so wide as to include cases which had not been contemplated by the noble Lord (Lord Hotham) who had moved it. Especially it had not been intended to apply to the case of the Attorney and Solicitor General, but yet the language embraced both of them. These officers were paid, not by salaries, but by fees, and it could not be the intention of the House that they should be deprived of their fees. But since the Resolution had been passed more than one member of the long robe had supported measures in reference to which he had at one time or another received a fee. The Resolution would even apply to the hon. Member for Whitby (Mr. Stephenson). Years ago that hon. Member had been asked to give his advice on the main drainage of the metropolis and had received a fee for so doing; and in this Session he had lent his assistance to carry out a Bill embodying his views. But no one ever thought of calling his conduct in question, although he had distinctly violated the language of the Resolution; on the contrary, the House felt deeply indebted to that hon. Gentleman for the able assistance he had rendered throughout the discussions on that Bill. In the present state of the House, and at this period of the Session, he (Mr. Schneider) felt that he would not be doing his duty if he did more than call the attention of the House to the subject; but he hoped that some Member of the Government would take the matter into his consideration, and would next Session bring forward some Resolution which would really carry out the intention of the noble Lord (Lord Hotham), while it should be free from the objections which he had stated. He was afraid that several hon. Members had had imputations cast upon them in consequence of the language of the Resolution. The noble Lord who had moved it, if he had been present, would, he felt confident, have corroborated his statement, that he had never intended to cast imputations upon hon. Members. In conclusion, he would move that the terms of the Resolution should be read.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Resolution of the House of the 22nd day of June last relative thereto be read," put, and agreed to.
  Resolution read.
  MR. WARRENsaid, that he rose before the Attorney General, for the purpose of saying a few words on this subject on his own account, and also on behalf of the noble Lord to whose recent Resolution the matter before the House related. He had received a letter from his noble Friend requesting him to explain the cause of his absence—a public engagement in the country made by him some time ago, when he could not have supposed that on the last day of the Session any such Motion as this could come on. His noble Friend further authorized him to state, that before leaving town, his attention had been called to this matter, in the House, by the hon. Member for Norwich, and that the case of the Attorney and Solicitor General, in respect of Government business, had not been unforeseen by him in framing his Resolution. What they did in the House of Commons, in Government matters, was part of their official duty, and their professional fees were their necessary official remuneration. Their conduct in Government cases, therefore, was no more open to exception than that of a Minister of the Crown who is paid by salary. Having thus expressed the views of his noble Friend, whose character and position gave him such great weight in this House, he (Mr. Warren) begged briefly to explain his own, by saying that they were in entire accordance with those of his noble Friend in framing his Resolution, in the policy of which he had concurred from the first. That Resolution had received, in a very decisive manner, the approbation of the House, after ample discussion, having passed by a majority of 210 against 27, and ought not lightly to be disturbed. If he (Mr. Warren) had considered that it involved any discredit or dishonour in respect of the great profession to which he had the honour to belong, he would on no account have supported it, but it did no such thing. He appealed to many of those then present to recollect how very guarded and courteous his noble Friend had been in advocating his Resolution, showing that nice regard for the feelings of the members of a powerful and honourable profession which characterized all that he (Lord Hotham) said and did, to all persons, whether in or out of the House. He did not even glance at any individual, or any particular transaction, but expressed what was, and ought to be, the opinion of the House on a matter of great moment to
  2350
  its own privileges and character before the country. He (Mr. Warren) said emphatically, that to do what that Resolution denounced, was contrary to the usage, and derogatory to the dignity of that House; and it was a Resolution perfectly intelligible as it stood, though its terms were certainly very comprehensive. Such a case as that now before the House however, was clearly not within the spirit of the Resolution, and he urged the Government to pause before they unsettled and reopened a Resolution which had so unequivocally received the fiat of the House, and which related to a matter of so much difficulty and delicacy.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, he regretted that the hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. Schneider) had been prevented from calling their attention at an earlier period of the Session to the terms of the Resolution. That Resolution was one of very great importance, not so much as affecting the interests of members of the bar who were also Members of that House, but as affecting in an important degree the independence of every Member of Parliament and the interests of every subject in the realm. If the Resolution had gone no further than absolutely to prohibit any Member of the House from receiving pecuniary or other rewards in respect of the discharge of his duties in that House, no one could have taken exception to it, for such a thing would not only be unconstitutional and illegal, but altogether unworthy and unbecoming any Member of Parliament; but the Resolution went much further than that. He had to express his grateful thanks to the hon. Member for Norwich, for having given him a private intimation of a report which he had heard, and which had been confirmed by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wallingford, that it was really believed by some persons that he (the Attorney General) had accepted a large sum—£500, he believed, had been named—from some Indian prince or gentleman, with a view to services to be performed in that House. He should not have thought it necessary to refer at all to so silly a story—which he need hardly say was absolutely untrue—were it not that it afforded him an opportunity of saying, that certainly on a recent occasion a very large sum of money was offered to him on behalf of one of those individuals who had lately sought justice, or what they thought justice, at the hands of the British Parliament. He took the opportunity of inform-

  2351
  ing the gentleman—who was not any prince of the Royal House of Oude or of Surat—that anything of the kind was so utterly inconsistent with our notions of duty and propriety, and so contrary to the constitution of this country, that any one who made such an offer would be exposed to some personal risk, and he believed that no such offer had been made to any Member of that House since. In answer to the inquiry of the hon. Member for Norwich, he begged to state that it was his intention at the very earliest period of next Session to direct the notice of the House to the Resolution carried by his noble Friend, and to the effect it had in respect to the members of the Bar who were also Members of that House. From what passed when the Resolution was under discussion, it seemed to be believed, chiefly by Members on the other side of the House, that the Resolution would prohibit Members not only from accepting remuneration for anything done in the discharge of their duty, in the House, but that it would also apply to any Member who gave his legal opinion on any case which might result ultimately in proceedings before either House of Parliament. He would not refer to the well-known and ancient practice by which the Attorney and Solicitor Generals were bound, in the discharge of their duty, to give their opinions upon all Bills submitted to this House, and upon all proceedings taken out of this House in which the rights of the Crown were in any way concerned. If that practice were departed from the Crown would be left without the assistance which had always been deemed necessary for the protection of its interests; but without referring now to this question, it was perfectly obvious, and on a future occasion he should be able to satisfy the House, that if the noble Lord's Resolution was made applicable to the case of a counsel who, being consulted by an individual from India or elsewhere, and recommending an appeal to Parliament, was afterwards precluded from taking part in any discussion on the subject, the necessary and inevitable effect would be to prevent a person who had suffered wrongs in any of our Colonies from consulting the most eminent counsel (who were generally Members of this House) lest upon the opinion given, a resort to Parliament should ultimately be found necessary, and be should then be deprived of their advocacy. If a barrister had given his opinion professionally that the case submitted to him was a just and
  2352
  righteous one, upon what ground should he be prevented from advocating it in this House? The question involved large and important considerations, and his conviction was, that the Resolution was entirely superfluous and unnecessary, inasmuch as he scarcely believed there existed a member of the Bar—whether of England, Scotland, or Ireland—who had, within our own times, received any description of remuneration in any shape or way of which the most honourable, the most fastidious man in the Queen's dominions could complain. Entertaining this conviction, he would say no more than that, while on the one hand he should be among the first to stand forward and secure, if it were necessary, the dignity and the purity of the Bar from reproach or suspicion, he should certainly feel it his duty at an earlier period next Session to bring the whole question under the consideration of the House, and he was sure the members of the profession would be perfectly content with the decision at which the House might then arrive.
  MR. INGHAMsaid, he was glad to hear that there would be some general discussion upon the subject embraced in the noble Lord's Resolution. There was no case within his knowledge, nor did he believe that any existed, in which any member of the Bar, after giving his advice on a case submitted to him professionally, had received pecuniary compensation for his advocacy in Parliament; and if the Resolution which had been come to were carried out as strictly as it was said it might be, the result would be to deprive this House of the valuable information which its legal Members were able to bring to bear upon subjects which might come before it.
  On the Motion that the House, at its rising, adjourn until Monday,

MAJOR GENERAL INGLIS.

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, he rose to ask the President of the Board of Control whether it was intended, either by Her Majesty's Government or by the East India Company, to propose the grant of a pension to Major General Sir John Eardley Wilmot Inglis, K.C.B., for his distinguished services in the defence of the Residency at Lucknow. He had delayed any allusion to this subject until the last moment, hoping that the Government or the Company would

  2353
  have rendered any such step on his part unnecessary, by themselves, recognizing the services of General Inglis; and it was with pain and regret that he asked the question now, convinced as he was that it would have been far more gratifying to the feelings of this distinguished officer if any such recognition of his services had been spontaneously made by them. He (Colonel North) would not do the House the injustice to suppose that the events of the siege of Lucknow and its heroic defence had passed from their memories. Viscount Canning, in his general order of the 9th of December, 1857, had done justice to this heroic defence, and had spoken of Brigadier Inglis in terms of the highest praise. He might refer to the despatches of Sir J. Outram and Sir C. Campbell to show the high sense which they entertained of the services which had been rendered by the magnificent defence made by the garrison of Lucknow, and their admiration of the gallantry and ability which had been displayed by Major General Inglis, its commandant. The three most remarkable events connected with the contests in which we had been recently engaged, and those which excited the highest admiration, were the defence of Kars, the defence of Lucknow, and the relief of that band of heroes, who had formed its garrison by Sir H. Havelock. The defence of Lucknow had lasted for no less a period than eighty-seven days, and had resulted in saving to the Indian Government no less a sum than twenty-four lacs of rupees, thirty guns in position, an immense amount of ammunition, the jewels of the King, and, above all, in the preservation of the lives and honour of a large number of our countrywomen and their children. Major General Inglis had conducted that defence to a successful issue, and had, moreover, retained the responsibility of the command of the garrison, even after it had been relieved by Outram and Havelock. Now, what reward, he would ask, had been conferred upon him for services such as these? The gallant defender of Kars, as a reward for what he had done, had been made a general officer, a Knight Commander of the Bath, a Baronet, had in addition received a pension, and was at the present moment Commandant at Woolwich. That gallant officer, he was ready to admit, merited all the honours which a grateful country could confer upon him, while Sir H. Havelock, who had also performed most distinguished services for England, and who had relieved the
  2354
  garrison at Lucknow, had been made a general officer, a Knight Commander of the Bath, a Baronet, had received a pension, had been appointed to the command of a regiment, and had received a command in India. Brigadier Inglis, however, whose conduct had been spoken of in terms so flattering by Sir J. Outram and Sir C. Campbell, who had prosecuted a "magnificent" defence to a successful issue, had up to this moment received merely the honour of being made a Knight of the Bath and a general officer. He held, it was true, also at the present moment a command in India; but what, he would ask, was the cause of his being present in England at this moment? It was the state of his health, which had become considerably impaired, and what, under these circumstances, would be likely to be the result of his return to India, whither he (Colonel North) believed he was about to proceed towards the close of the year? He would not be able to endure the climate of that country, and must, therefore, in all probability, return to England as a general officer, with £400 a year. In consequence of his having been removed from the command of the 32nd Regiment, and promoted to the rank of a general officer, he (Colonel North) believed that Major General Inglis was placed in a worse position than he had occupied before. As colonel of the 32nd Regiment he might, if his health had failed him, have exchanged into a regiment on home service, or to one which was on duty in a more favourable climate. He could also very easily have retired from the command of the regiment by the sale of his commission. Owing to his promotion, however, he would have great difficulty in disposing of his commission as a general officer. He should, under these circumstances, put it to the House whether in their opinion Major General Inglis had received a sufficient reward for the very distinguished services which he had rendered to his country? That gallant officer was, however, but a single instance of the pecuniary loss which promotions sometimes entailed. Colonel Lake, who had been the right-hand man of the hon. and gallant Member for Calne in his defence of Kars, furnished another example. That distinguished soldier had been removed from the East India Company's service to the Queen's, and that removal had, in a pecuniary point of view, been

  2355
  his ruin. He found that, as an Engineer officer, there was no employment for him in our service, whereas if he had continued in the service of the Company he might have had an appointment of not less than £1,600 a year. True, he had been made an aide-de-camp to the Queen; but he might have received that honour and remained in the Company's service. With regard, however, to Sir John Inglis, he (Colonel North) was confident that there was not a man in the country who would not rejoice to find the Government rewarding him in a manner that was commensurate with the value of his services. For his part, he did not see why the same honours should not be conferred upon hint that had been awarded to Sir H. Havelock.
  SIR WALTER FARQUHARsaid, he was glad that his hon. and gallant Friend had with so much ability brought under the consideration of the House the services of that most distinguished officer Sir J. Inglis. The House ought, of course, to be careful how they trenched upon the prerogative of the Crown in interfering with the recommendations of the executive Government; but he could not help recollecting that on a former occasion, when the services of that distinguished man, Sir Henry Havelock, were brought before the House by the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, who proposed that a pension of £1,000 a year should be settled upon him, many hon. Members stated that they did not think that was an adequate remuneration for so great a man; and the feeling of the House was so unanimous against the grant of so small a remuneration, that the noble Lord yielded to it, and willingly, and he must say most gracefully, came forward on a subsequent occasion to propose that £1,000 should be settled upon Sir Henry Havelock for life, and that the pension on his death should pass to his most gallant son. And more than that, when the country had occasion to lament the loss of that valuable life—when that gallant man fell, borne down by fatigue, by action, by exposure, by over-strained exertions of body and mind, £1,000 was also settled upon Lady Havelock. That generosity on the part of the Government was hailed throughout the country with universal satisfaction; and he was confident that the country would be delighted to hear that it was the intention of the Government to recommend that a pension be settled on Sir J. Inglis. He held in
  2356
  his hand an extract from a despatch written by Sir J. Inglis to General Havelock, on the 25th of August, which showed more clearly than any words which he could use what was the condition of the garrison of Lucknow at that time. He had seen the original of this most remarkable document, the smallest possible scrap of paper, which was carried to General Havelock by a cossid after that General's first retirement from Lucknow. He (Sir W. Farquhar) had had himself the satisfaction of taking it to Lady Chelmsford, the mother of Lady Inglis. Every word of it relating to Lucknow was written in Greek, for the purpose of preventing the information reaching the enemy should it fall into his hands; the rest was written in English. He would take the liberty of reading the extract, which was as follows:—
  "You must bear in mind how I am hampered; that I have upwards of 120 sick and wounded, and at the least 220 women and 130 children, and no carriage of any description, besides sacrificing 23 lacs of treasure, and 30 guns of all sorts. In consequence of the news, I shall soon put the force on half rations, unless I hear again from you. Our provisions will last us till about the 10th of September. If you hope to save this force, no time must be lost in pushing forwards. We are daily being attacked by the enemy, who are within a few yards of our defences. Their mines have already weakened our post, and I have every reason to believe they are carrying on others. Their 18-pounders are within 150 yards of some of our batteries, and from their position and our inability to form working parties we cannot reply to them, and the damage done hourly is very great. My strength now in Europeans is 350, and about 300 Natives, and the men dreadfully harassed, and owing to part of the Residency having been brought down by round shot many are without shelter. Our Native Horse having been assured, on Colonel Tytler's authority, of your near approach some twenty-five days ago are naturally losing confidence, and if they leave us I do not see how the defences are to be manned. Since the above was written, the enemy have sprung another mine, which has given us a great deal of trouble and caused some loss.'
  In giving praise to this distinguished man he wished it to be distinctly understood that he did not at all mean to detract from the praise due to the illustrious Sir Henry Lawrence; for it was owing to his precautions that the garrison were able to hold out at all. But Sir Henry Lawrence died on the 4th of July, and Mr. Banks, who succeeded him, was killed on the 22nd. From the 22nd of July till its relief the whole responsibility of the lives of the men, women, and children, and the garrison of Lucknow, devolved upon Sir J. Inglis. By God's mercy, he (Sir W. Farquhar) had

  2357
  been permitted to see his son, who was lying prostrate with fever and wounds at Lucknow, and who lamented that on that account he was not able to do the hard work which others did, nor to be so useful as he could have wished, but who was ready to lay down his life to save those who were intrusted to his care. He had heard that son recount with his own lips in glowing terms what others did in defence of the garrison of Lucknow. He told him, with the highest pleasure, of the undaunted courage, unceasing vigilance, and heroic endurance of that noble garrison. It was due to that commander, who, by his energy, ability, and courage, gave so splendid an example to the garrison, that some great compliment should be paid to him by the country for which he had suffered and fought. He trusted that the Government would listen to the recommendations of his hon. and gallant Friend. The highest authority in "another place"—no less than the Prime Minister himself—had stated that the defence of Lucknow by Sir John Inglis was one of the most remarkable of modern times.

  THE ACCOUNTS OF THE WAR DEPARTMENT.—OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. MACARTNEYsaid, he rose to call the attention of the House to the paper No. 346 (Army Account 1856–7), in which appears the Report of the Commissioners of Audit, condemning the system of keeping and furnishing the accounts of army receipts and expenditure in the War Department, with the correspondence between the said Commissioners, the Treasury, and War Department. Also, to the paper, No. 424 (Establishment of the Consolidated War Department), with the view of pressing the appointment of professional actuaries to examine and arrange the army accounts for 1856, 1857, and 1858–9; so as to enable the House to ascertain the correct army expenditure previous to the next Session of Parliament, when forming estimates for the year 1859–60; and, further, to place the civil establishment under the Minister at War upon a better and more efficient system than exists at present. In the present mode of keeping the accounts in the War Department there was no means of arriving at a clear debtor and creditor account, and there was great danger, unless the Treasury and the War Minister took the matter up and remedied the false system which was pursued, that serious and heavy losses must occur. In
  2358
  one department of the War Office large defalcations and great mismanagement had already been made public. In 1855–56 the Commissioners of Audit recommended a similar system to be adopted in the War Department to that which prevailed in the navy. The system pursued at the War Office, if adopted by any man in trade would prevent his being able at the end of the year to balance his books. In 1856–57, owing to the difficulty of dealing with the accounts, the Commissioners of Audit repeated their objection to the system pursued. The object he (Mr. Macartney) had in bringing this matter forward was, that before any further change was made, the Treasury and War Minister should look into this matter and see what could be done. It appeared that it had been resolved that the accounts of the Royal Artillery and Engineers were to be removed from the hands of Messrs. Cox and Co.; and a gentleman who had risen from the ranks, as gunner, no doubt a person of character and ability, had been made paymaster of those corps. He had been employed in the topographical department of the War Office, at a salary of £200 a year, and he was now to have £600 a year, and had given security for £8,000, whilst no less a sum than £50,000 would pass through his hands monthly. Such a serious change as this should be well considered, and he hoped that the Government before next Session would take steps to put the accounts of the War Office on the system recommended by the Commissioners of Audit. The great defect was, that there was no competent Accountant General attached to the department. When the consolidation of the Ordnance with the War Department took place, no such officer had been appointed; Mr. Henry Smith, who was chief clerk and accountant in the Ordnance Department, having retired, Mr. Kirby, who had been fifty-one years in the service, and had retired on his full pension in 1854, was induced to return to active life, and to accept the office of Accountant General of the amalgamated offices on a salary of £1,500 a year. There was not, he believed, a more upright or honourable man in the office than Mr. Kirby, but it was cruel to him to bring him back to the service in that way. Moreover it was notorious that his system of accounts was that which was objected to by the Commissioners of Audit. He mentioned this to show the necessity of adopting the recommendation of the Audit Office. There was another great source of complaint in the

  2359
  system introduced into the Ordnance Office, arising out of the mode of promoting the clerks. He had brought that question before Parliament in 1854, but the House seemed impressed with the competitive principle, and it decided that the heads of departments had a right to select the best men for promotion instead of adhering to the system of seniority. Nevertheless, he wished now to call attention to the injustice towards the permanent clerks by the introduction of temporary clerks, many of whom obtained advantages over the permanent staff. Formerly there used to be very few clerks appointed in that way; but the late Minister for War had increased them to the number of 160. These men were not under the usual restrictions as to age. One temporary clerk was 54 when he entered only four years ago and some of them enjoyed much larger salaries than were given to regular clerks of much longer standing. He hoped the minute would be produced next Session which granted to Colonel Mundy (who was appointed Under Secretary for War, under the Duke of Newcastle, and remained in office only two years and ten months) a pension of two-thirds of his salary. In 1855–56 the expenditure of the War Department exceeded the estimates by considerably more than £2,000,000, and in 1856–57 by no less than £1,194,927. All these matters he brought forward to show how imperfectly the accounts of the War Department were kept, and how impossible it was to ascertain and to check its expenditure. He hoped the subject would occupy the serious attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister for War during the recess.
  MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, that the Government did intend during the recess to examine into the whole question of the mode of keeping the public accounts not merely in reference to the War Department, but with regard to all the Departments of the State. They had had before them the Report of the Committee on Public Moneys which sat two years ago. The Committee had dealt with the question in the fullest manner, and had suggested various improvements with regard to the mode of keeping and checking the accounts, and of laying them before Parliament. All these points had been considered, and a Treasury Minute had been drawn up with regard to them. That Minute would be considered by the Government during the recess, in the hope that they
  2360
  might be able early next Session to introduce some improvement in the present system. With regard to the complications in the accounts of some years' standing, he could not be expected to enter upon any explanation with regard to them. Whether the war had had anything to do with these complications it was impossible for him to say.

ARMY REGULATIONS.—THE ORDER OF THE BATH.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, he rose to call attention to the Army Regulation which requires an officer to have served six years before he can be promoted to the rank of Major; and further, to call attention to the limitation of the Order of the Bath to Field Officers, in consequence of which there are now no means of rewarding an officer below that rank in the British Army. His Motion had been on the paper for some months, but he had deferred it from time to time in the hope that he should have been able to have brought it on at an early hour on that, the last night of the Session. In the then state of the House, however—which, indeed, was not a House, there not being sufficient Members present to constitute a House—it would be as absurd to make a set speech on the matter as it would be to address an elaborate oration on the British constitution to a small dinner party of six. He should therefore confine his remarks within the smallest possible compass. He wished, first, to direct attention to the Army Regulation which required that an officer should have served six years before he could be promoted to the rank of Major. He was far from objecting to that regulation as a general rule, for he thought that it tended both to the efficiency of the public service and to the benefit of the officers themselves, preventing the possibility of favouritism or anything like jobbing in time of peace. Nor was it peculiar to this country, for both in the French and Sardinian armies an officer must serve eight years before he could be promoted, in time of peace, to a rank equivalent to that of Major in the British Army. The defect in our regulations, however, was that no provision was made for a modification of the rule in time of war. That was the time when a man showed what he was—whether he had aptitude and ability for his profession. In the French and Sardinian armies the probationary period was re-

  2361
  duced one-half during war service—a year in Algiers or in the Crimea counting for two—so that in eight years in war time a man might become a major general, whereas it would require sixteen years in peace before he could do so. This was the principle which he wished to see adopted in this country; and the practice in the sister service warranted it. A man might become a post captain at twenty-two; but, supposing him to enter the army at eighteen, he could not be a major, a far less responsible position, before twenty-four. He ventured to suggest that some such system as that which prevailed in the French and Sardinian armies might in time of war be with advantage applied to our own, and that a man who showed a decided aptitude for his profession should be promoted, irrespectively of that period of service, which was proper and legitimate enough in times of peace, and at the discretion of those who were intrusted with the power of promotion. The second subject of which he had given notice related to the Order of the Bath, which was at present limited to field officers. He saw no reason why it should be confined to any one class of officers, but thought that it should be open to all ranks and grades of the army. Merit, not rank, ought to be the principle acted on, and the Order ought to be open to the ensign if he had sufficiently distinguished himself. The Bath was an old Order—a relict, in fact, of medieval times. In 1725 it first became a military Order, and then thirty-seven knights were made. It was a remarkable circumstance, however, that of those thirty-seven only two were military men. All the others were Members of Parliament, or gentlemen of the bedchamber. The two military men happened to occupy one or other of those positions, and it was extremely doubtful whether they would have received the Order if they had not. Soon after that, however, it did become essentially a military Order, and it was given to Nelson, Collingwood, Wellington, and men of that character. It so remained until the end of the war in 1815, when it was enlarged and put upon the footing upon which it now stands. Of the first class, that of G.C.B., there were to be seventy-two, of whom twelve might be civilians, and the military division was to be limited to major generals and rear admirals. In the second class, that of K.C.B., there were to be 180, and it was limited to lieutenant colonels and post
  2362
  captains. The third class, that of C.B., was to be open to officers holding commissions in Her Majesty's service by sea or land. In 1847 the civil service was admitted to the second and third classes of the Bath, and the military division of the third class was limited as to number and rank. The practical result had all along been that admission to the higher classes of the Order of the Bath had been limited to field officers, and that appeared to him unjust and unfair to the great body of officers in the army. In advocating the eligibility of junior officers of the army to participate in the honour of the Bath, he was fortified by the opinions both of the Duke of York and the Duke of Wellington as stated in a correspondence which passed between those illustrious persons in 1815. The Duke of Wellington on that occasion stated in a letter to his Royal Highness on the 28th of June, 1815. that he did not concur in the limitation of the order. Many captains of the army, he added, conducted themselves in a most meritorious manner, and he could never see the reason of excluding them from the honour. The Duke concluded his letter by proposing a fourth class of the Order of the Bath as a means of rewarding meritorious officers in the service. To that proposition the Duke of York replied in a letter dated from the Horse Guards on the 7th of September, 1815, from which he (Lord Elcho) would read an extract. Ins Royal Highness said—
  "I did not fail to pay every attention to the suggestion, both in affording it my own mature consideration, and in bringing it under that of the Secretary of State, and though we both concur with your Grace as to the advantages which, in many points of view, would attend the future formation of a fourth class in the manner you propose, yet we are apprehensive that it would increase the difficulties and embarrassments which have been found to rise in the selection of individual candidates for past services. There can be no reason, however, for giving such a decision on the subject as may prevent your suggestion from being hereafter acted upon, and upon which footing it is that you have proposed it; and the present publication of what is now termed the third class cannot operate against the future re-organization of the order according to your idea. The argument in my mind in favour of the extension as the Order to a fourth class is the facility it would afford to the introduction of captains into that class. I regret the apparent necessity of their present exclusion, but when an order is first instituted and granted retrospectively, your Grace will agree as to the great difficulty which may arise to the opening of it at once to so numerous a class of officers as captains of the army. Hereafter, whether there may be a fourth instituted or not, I cannot see why an individual captain upon

  2363
  the occurrence of any distinguished action should not have the order."
  The very grounds on which the Victoria Cross was instituted afforded an additional illustration of the principle for which he (Lord Elcho) was contending, inasmuch as it was only to be given as a reward for individual instances of merit and valour in the field. But although that order remedied the difficulty so far as the want of a fourth class was felt it did not wholly meet the case. It was not given for those services for which the Order of the Bath was given. Under the terms on which the order was instituted such a man as Sir John Inglis, for example, would not be entitled to the Victoria Cross, but any bombardier under him would, who took up a live shell and threw it away, not, it might be, knowing the danger to which he was exposing himself. In point of fact, the Victoria Cross had a direct tendency to induce young men in the army to do things—gallant they might be, but still rash and contrary to discipline—in the hope of obtaining the reward and the honour which it conferred. He would suggest, therefore, that the Statutes of the Order, should be remodelled after those foreign orders, which were established for the encouragement of bravery, but of bravery in accordance with discipline. Such, for instance, was that of St. George, of which, provided that every officer should be inserted in the list who, when in the command of troops, and animating them by his own example, captured a ship, a battery, or any place held by the enemy, or stood a siege without surrendering. He would say, in conclusion, that he was anxious that his hon. and gallant Friend should consider the subjects which he had ventured to bring under the notice of the House, with the view, if his hon. and gallant Friend thought them consistent with the discipline and efficiency of the service, to his proposing a relaxation of the rule in reference to promotion, and an extension of the third class of the Order of the Bath, if not the institution of a fourth class.
  SIR FREDERICK SMITHsaid, he thought the junior officers of the army were under great obligations to the noble Lord for advocating their claims to share in the distinguished honour of the Bath. The question, no doubt, was a very difficult one, as indeed was evident from the fact that the Duke of Wellington had been in power subsequently to 1815, and yet had done nothing in the matter. Perhaps,
  2364
  too, it might occasion heartburnings if it were given to very young officers who had been more fortunately placed than their brother officers, as brevet rank sometime was. Still, he hoped it would receive the consideration of the Secretary at War during the recess. With regard to the first part of the noble Lord's speech, looking to the very responsible positions which field officers were sometimes called on to hold, he questioned whether it was desirable to interfere with the regulation which required that an officer should have served a certain number of years before being promoted to the rank of major. Before sitting down, he wished to add his meed of praise to the eulogium passed upon Sir John Inglis by his hon. and gallant Friend near him (Colonel North). As an Engineer officer he had studied all the details of the siege of Lucknow, and he knew of no defence more distinguished for constancy, ingenuity, and gallantry than the defence of Lucknow by that brave officer.
  GENERAL CODRINGTONsaid, there was no doubt that the limitation of the Order of the Bath to the superior ranks of the army was a great disadvantage and unfairness to the lower ranks. The establishment of a fourth class or an extension of the Order to the subalterns would be most agreeable to the army generally, and would produce a greater feeling of brotherhood between the superior and inferior ranks. No doubt, there would be some difficulty in extending the superior grade of the Bath to the inferior grade of officers, because, of course, the more generally it was bestowed, the less it would be valued. He questioned very touch whether it was advisable to have made the Bath a civil order at all, for certainly the services of the army merited an exclusively military order. The Victoria Cross seemed originally intended for the purpose of rewarding the inferior grades of officers in the army and navy who could not receive the Bath, but in some way or other it had been appropriated to the reward of a totally different class of services. It was now put above the Bath, inasmuch as it was made to celebrate individual and marked services. Those, however, who had received it richly merited it, and a finer list of gallant deeds than that attached to the muster roll of the decoration had never been seen. No doubt it had been attended with its little inconveniences. Lord Hardinge said that the great object in the English army should

  2365
  be to preserve the correct formation of regiments and brigades in line, and not to encourage officers to step out of the line and mar its completeness for the purpose of signalizing themselves by some special action of gallantry; and an order of this sort which was given for such actions might have its disadvantages. He hoped that the right hon. and gallant General who had shown in so many cases a disposition to do all in his power for the good of the army would take this matter into his consideration. With regard to the remarks of the hon. an gallant Colonel opposite (Colonel North) on the position of Sir John Inglis, no person had ever done more honour to the Bath, and nobody had more richly merited it, not only for his brilliant and gallant defence of Lucknow, but for his previous services at Moultan and in the Punjab. With regard to his pecuniary position, however, Sir John Inglis was absolutely worse off than he was before being made a Major General, But there was this to be said, that he was a young Major General, and he hoped he had still a long and brilliant career with the highest rewards before him.
  GENERAL PEELsaid, he could assure his hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Macartney) that as regarded the first part of his Motion every one of the recommendations of the Treasury had been carried into effect, and the improved mode of taking accounts was now in operation at the War Office. With regard to his remarks on the War Department generally, he might have contented himself with assuring him that, so far as in him lay, he would do his duty in connection with his office, if his hon. Friend had not referred to names of individuals connected with that department before his time. Major Marvin had been appointed paymaster at Woolwich long before he (General Peel) was at the head of the War Department, in consequence of the peculiar qualifications he possessed for the office, and his appointment would be the means of saving the country £4 000 a year. His hon. Friend had alluded to the fact of that gallant officer having risen from the ranks. All that he (General Peel) could say in reply was, that it was the more honour to him. As to the number of temporary clerks in the War Office, it was the most economical and efficient mode of conducting the public service, because if they were all permanent clerks, the staff could not be reduced without the payment of large sums for compensation.
  2366
  In consequence of the requisitions made upon the War Office by the East India Company there had been an increase in the number of letters received during the two months ending the 28th of June, as compared with the corresponding two months of 1857, of 14,653, and in the number of letters written of 16,607. There had also been an increase of 415 hours in the daily attendance, or equal to the service of 69 clerks at the ordinary rate of attendance. He could assure his hon. Friend that from himself down to the humblest person in the establishment they were all overworked. With regard to the superannuations, they had all taken place long before he came to the War Office, and he could therefore give no opinion on the subject. With regard to the remarks of his noble Friend (Lord Elcho) he thought it would be very unwise in that House to interfere with the regulations or discipline of the army, which had far better be left to the commanding officers and the head of the department. The present regulation as to the number of years' service was in operation during the whole career of the Duke of Wellington, and he must say that his experience was that six years was not too long a period for an officer to become acquainted with all his multifarious duties. He did not think the comparison of his noble Friend between a brevet major and a post-captain at all a suitable or appropriate one. It had been justly stated that the Victoria Cross was instituted as an extension of, or rather as a substitute for, the Bath. It was with great pain that they were often obliged to refuse the Bath to persons who were quite entitled to it in consequence of the number greatly exceeding that laid down by the regulations. That number was 550, but he believed at the present moment it was exceeded by more than 200. He would not say that the present constitution of the Victoria Cross might not be improved. At present it was requisite that some extraordinary proof of valour should be given in the presence of the enemy. The effect of that provision no one knew better than the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (General Codrington), who had addressed the House. There were, however, instances of valour exhibited not in the presence of an enemy that ought to be rewarded, such for example, as the case of the men on board the Sarah Sands. He was happy to say that he had received the sanction of Her Majesty to such an extension of that order as

  2367
  would include them and persons in similar situations. In conclusion, he could assure the House that it was his earnest desire to promote the general welfare of the army.
  SIR WILLIAM FRASERsaid, he hoped some arrangements would be made by which officers would be relieved from the liability to pay £200 or £300 in fees on their receiving the distinction of the Order of the Bath. He feared the institution of the Victoria Cross might have a slightly detrimental effect on the service. The great principle advocated by the late Duke of Wellington for the English army, which, he said, would have gone anywhere and done anything, was the principle of duty. Of all the despatches written by that great man there was not one in which the word "glory" did occur, nor one in which the word "duty" did not occur. Such was the mode of modern warfare that it was next to impossible for an officer of any rank to attain the honour of the Victoria Cross, and he doubted whether its being attainable by subalterns, corporals, and men of the line would not lead them to neglect duty in the pursuit of glory.

  ORDNANCE SURVEY.—QUESTION.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, he wished to ask the noble Lord the President of the Board of Control, in the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether, before final determination on the scale to be adopted in future, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will cause inquiry to be made, firstly as to the expense, and secondly, as to the correctness of the system of reduction by photography now practised by the Ordnance Department for forming the six-inch and one-inch maps. He must complain that a Commission had been issued upon a Motion in the House of Lords, in order to upset a decision of the House of Commons upon this subject. He did not wish to say a word against the gentlemen composing the Commission, except that they were known to entertain decided opinions as to the scale of survey. The Government had taken it upon themselves to act contrary to the opinion of the House of Commons, and the responsibility now rested upon them. He was greatly afraid that the reduction of these maps by photography would not realize the expectations entertained of it.
  LORD STANLEYsaid, he could not pretend to have any information of his own upon that subject; but he had been informed, on the authority of those who had
  2368
  conducted that survey, that the reduction by photography was perfectly and minutely accurate, and that a saving of 650 per cent. was effected by that process, the actual cost being only 16 d. per sheet. In reply to the question whether any further inquiry was to be made into that subject he had to state that the Government did not believe any inquiry would be necessary after the report of the present Commissioners should have been received. Another question had been put to him some time before, to which he regretted that he could not return a very definite answer. He had been asked whether anything would be done in the way of proposing the grant of a pension to Major General Inglis. Perhaps in the present state of the case it would be enough for him to say that the distinguished services of General Inglis were as fully appreciated by the Government as they were by the hon. Members who had spoken on the subject and, as he believed, they were by the public.

RAILWAY AND CANAL LEGISLATION.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. RICH, in rising to bring under the notice of the House the Report from the Select Committee on Railway and Canal Legislation, said that the contradictory and unjust decisions of Parliament had produced a state of insecurity and uncertainty most prejudicial to the important interests concerned. More than £300,000,000 had been spent in the construction of railways, but from the causes alluded to the value of that immense property was much depreciated, and much suffering was the result among the shareholders. Many persons said, "Let them suffer, the public gains." The public did not gain, would not gain, and ought not to gain, by the commission of injustice to large bodies. He wished to impress upon the Government the necessity of their attending to this important subject. They ought either to appoint a commission of inquiry composed of properly qualified persons, or early next Session move for a Committee of that House, a majority of the Members of which should be cognizant of and interested in railway matters. In no other way would the railway interest find itself fairly treated.
  Motion agreed to.
  House, at rising, to adjourn till Monday next.
  House adjourned at half after Eleven o'clock, till Monday next.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1ª Bankruptcy and Liquidation, 1858.
3a Militia Pay; Militia (Service Abroad) Act Continuance; Militia Act Continuance (No. 2); Corrupt Practices Prevention Act Continuance; Judgments (Ireland) Act Amendment; Civil Bills, &c., (Ireland) Act Amendment; Consolidated Fund (Appropriation).

LEGAL, REFORMS—GRAND AND COMMON JURIES.—NOTICES.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he wished to give notice of two Bills that he proposed to bring in at the commencement of the next Session of Parliament, and he made this announcement with the view of drawing public attention to the subject, and in the hope that he might have advice and assistance in framing the measures, which advice and assistance he should most respectfully and gratefully acknowledge. The object of the first measure was to prevent the practice of clandestinely going before a grand jury and preferring bills of indictment for perjury, conspiracy, and other offences, without any inquiry before a magistrate in the presence of the party accused, who ought to have an opportunity of defending himself. The practice had sprung up of going at once before a grand jury and preferring bills of indictment for conspiracy, perjury, and for obtaining money under false pretences, for which charges there was not the slightest foundation; and grand juries were sometimes induced, behind the back of a party, to find a bill, upon which a warrant was obtained, and the party was imprisoned until his trial, or until he found bail. Under this Bill there would be no such prosecutions without appearance before a magistrate, or the consent of a Judge. The other Bill he proposed was, to deal with a rule which had existed from time immemorial, and it was a matter which he approached with very great diffidence. The rule he referred to was that which required the unanimous verdict of a jury. He had of late experienced great inconvenience on this subject. Jurors were very different in their minds, and they sometimes would not defer, not merely to the Judge, but even to the opinion of the large majority of their own body. What he should propose was this—not that they should be governed by a bare majority, but that if, after certain deliberation by the jury, they all agreed except one or two of them, then the verdict of those who so agreed should be considered as tantamount to a verdict of the whole twelve—still subject, of course, to be reviewed by the Court, and to be set aside if necessary. In several cases lately before

2283
him, there had been only one or two discontents, and he had been obliged to discharge the juries. The law was very defective on this subject, and he proposed to introduce a Bill to remedy the defect which he had pointed out, by allowing the opinion of the great majority of the jury to be acted on.

ST. PAUL'S CHURCH-YARD.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF HARRINGTON: My Lords, in passing by St. Paul's this morning, I saw a triangular piece of ground on the east end of the churchyard, placarded "To be let on a building lease." Supposing this barbarous measure carried out, it would mask the only fine view of two sides of the noblest temple ever raised for the worship of God. I, therefore, give notice that, on a future day, I shall put the following question to Her Majesty's Government:—
"The Earl of Harrington to put a question to Her Majesty's Government, concerning a plot of ground at the east end of Saint Paul's Churchyard, which is advertised and placarded to be built on, which, if carried out, will mask a fine angular view of two sides of that magnificent building."
After having put this question on the Record of the House, I learnt from Mr. Richardson, the distinguished architect engaged on my Brompton estate, that great efforts had been made by artists and others to prevent these buildings being erected, but that all appeals had proved hopeless, for the estimated value of the plot of ground was £60,000; and one acre of land opposite the Bank of England had been estimated at £1,000,000 sterling. I said it mattered not, for the Corporation, with a noble generosity, had given up a portion of the said ground in front of the Exchange, and the country would not allow St. Paul's to be bricked up. I allowed this question to remain on the Notices of the House for some days, in order that it might command the attention of the House and the country that, on the 28th July, I would put the question to the Prime Minister.
THE EARL OF DERBYrose and said, I entirely concur with the noble Earl in his wish to prevent these buildings from being raised, but the land was valued at £60,000, and I have no power to stop their erection.
THE EARL OF HARRINGTON: The remarks made by the noble Earl on the mere announcement of my intention to put the question were very discouraging.
2284
I am aware, indeed, of the great sacrifice the Corporation was called on to make, but I feel confident, first, because I know the magic power and influence possessed by the noble Earl; and secondly, because from experience I anticipate that the Corporation is ever ready to make great sacrifices for the public good. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will not consider me presumptuous in putting the question on the day announced. Just previous to my putting the question on the 28th of July, the Earl of Derby had the kindness to place a plan in my hands, and told me that the Corporation had agreed to make a great sacrifice, namely, to build only on one half of the open space, so that a fine angular view of both sides of the Cathedral might be seen from the unoccupied spot. Having been privately and unexpectedly favoured by this communication, I shall limit my remarks.
My Lords, agreeable to notice given, I now venture to put a question to Her Majesty's Government. I solicit the noble Earl of Derby's powerful influence to prevent a piece of Ground at the East end of St. Paul's Church Yard, from being built on, and thereby securing the only fine view of the most sublime Temple ever raised to the glory of God and of our Protestant faith—for there it is that the open Bible reigns and universal charity is preached. I do well remember many years back, passing St. Paul's Cathedral in company with the famous Marquess of Hastings. He told me that Charles Fox had intended to have moved Parliament to pull down a part of the buildings on the Thames side of St. Paul's, but that a change in the administration had prevented it. My Lords, the thoughts of illustrious men should be recorded in history, fixed in our memories, and acted on. I call, therefore, on the noble Marquess of Lansdowne, the friend of Charles Fox, to assist me in this work. Depend upon it, nothing would so much tend to embellish London, and to promote religion and the arts, as the opening of St. Paul's to the constant gaze of three millions of its inhabitants. I have seen many fine buildings—St. Peter's, at Rome; the Domo, at Milan; the Cathedral, at Cologne; the lovely Targe, in British India; and at Athens, the noble Parthenon; but after all, St. Paul's is the wonder of the world. To preserve the fame of the great dead is a sacred duty. Now, Sir Christopher Wren was one of the foremost men

2285
this country ever produced; not inferior to Michael Angelo, as scholar, mathematician, architect, and artist of high classical taste. We are, therefore, bound to protect the fine monument he has erected to immortalize his fame.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, that he had applied to the Lord Mayor to ask what was about to be done in this matter. He had been favoured by his Lordship with a plan from which it appeared that only half the site to which the noble Earl referred was to be built upon; and as the building to be erected would have a semi-circular front, the view of the cathedral would be very little interfered with. He thought that great credit was due to the Corporation of London for their conduct in this matter. The piece of ground in question had cost them £90,000; and by surrendering one half of it, with the advantage of a double frontage to St. Paul's and Cannon Street, they had sacrificed no less than £45,000 to £50,000 for the public convenience.

PRIVATE BILLS—THE STANDING ORDERS

  STANDING ORDERS AMENDED.
  Order of the Day for taking into consideration the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills, in order to their being amended, read.
  LORD REDESDALEproposed several new Orders which he believed would economize both time and money, and facilitate the progress of bonâ fide schemes through Parliament, while they would afford ample security to the public, and to all persons concerned.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYexpressed his approbation generally of the proposed Orders, which he believed were in conformity with the recommendations of a Committee of their Lordships' House.
  LORD CAMPBELLhoped there was nothing in the Amendments to confirm the doctrine lately stated by a noble Friend of his in the other House (Lord John Russell), that the House of Commons was the Supreme Power in the State, simply because it possessed the power of the purse. It might as well be said that the Crown was the supreme Power, because it could make war and peace, and could cede the Isle of Wight to the Emperor of the French if it chose; or that their Lordships were, because in their judicial capacity they could rule that the second son, and not the first, was the heir to his father.
  Motion agreed to.
  Amendments made accordingly.

  BARONIES IN ABEYANCE.
  LORD REDESDALE, in calling the attention of the House to the return of Baronies called out of abeyance presented on the 19th instant, said, he considered this subject one well deserving of the consideration of their Lordships. There were, he believed, considerably more than 100 Baronies now in abeyance. Of late years it had been the practice for persons claiming Baronies that were in abeyance to present petitions praying that their claim might be investigated, in the hope that if they made out a clear case of their descent from the female co-heir, the Crown would exercise its prerogative by determining the abeyance in their favour. The question was one of great importance in relation to the judicial business of that House. The investigations extended over a long period, an immense amount of evidence was produced, and a large portion of time was occupied to the prejudice of suitors. The practice of calling peerages out of abeyance was far from being an ancient one, and no precedent is to be found for it under any of the Plantagenet or Tudor Sovereigns. The first case occurred in the reign of James I., being that of the Barony De Spenser, in 1604, when this prerogative was exercised in furtherance of a gross job. In that instance, the proceedings were of a very singular character. The Lord Abergavenny died, leaving an only daughter, and the question arose whether the title descended to this lady or to the heir male. The opinion of the Judges was certainly in favour of the descent to heirs general. The House of Lords, unwilling to separate the title from the estates, and from the family of Neville which had long held it, addressed the Crown, stating that they considered both worthy of the Peerage and suggesting that the Barony of De Spenser might be called out of abeyance in favour of one. The King acceded to the proposition, and, by vote of the House, the Barony of Abergavenny was assigned to the heir male, and the Barony of De Spenser to the heir general; but so little was any principle of law attended to in this case, that the House might have arranged the other way, had it been pleased so to vote. In the reign of Charles the First one Barony was called out of abeyance; in that of Charles the Second, two; in that of George the Second, two; in that of George the Third, eight; in that of George the Fourth, one; in that of William the Fourth, two—Berners and

  2287
  Clifford. In the present reign seven Baronies had been already called out of abeyance—only one less than the number called out during the whole of the long reign of George the Third. The number from the commencement of the practice down to the present day was only twenty-four. No one could be more sensible than he was of the advantage of ancient names to the peerage, and he believed all their Lordships rejoiced when the title of Earl of Shrewsbury was restored to a great historical name. Little objection can be urged to the practice when exercised in favour of Baronies which have for centuries been represented in the House, and which have only been in abeyance for a limited period. But the case assumed a different aspect when they had under consideration Baronies of very ancient date, which had for a long time been without any representative in that House, and the very names of which were unknown except to antiquaries and persons who took a special interest in such matters. The result was, perhaps, that the person in whose favour the abeyance was terminated was placed in a position in relation to the old Baronies which appeared hardly fair, their Lordships being, of course, aware that in the reign of Henry VIII. the long contest on the subject of precedence was decided by an Act of Parliament, declaring that precedence should be determined by the order of creation. The Grandison peerage, the claim to which had recently been decided, was in abeyance for 482 years. Only two of these Lord Grandisons ever sat in Parliament—the last in the reign of Edward the Third. The Lord Grandison who is known historically in the time of Charles I., and of whom such an interesting character is given by Clarendon, was an Irish Viscount of the Villiers family, whose title still exists in his collateral relative, the Earl of Jersey. If this abeyance should be terminated, the effect would be that the Lord Grandison entering the House as the third Peer ever summoned in right of that Barony, would sit before the 18th Lord Stourton, the 19th Lord Clinton, the 21st Lord Grey de Ruthyn, and the 22nd Lord Dacre. He would not detain their Lordships with any further remarks. At that period of the Session he would not ask their Lordships to take any positive step. It was, indeed, matter for consideration whether any step should be taken, and whether they should not look to the effect which discussion might produce on claimants.
  2288
  The noble Lord, having moved that the Return of all Baronies called out of abeyance to the present time, stating the number of years the abeyance had continued in each case, and the date of the termination of the same, delivered on the 19th instant, be printed (which was agreed to), gave notice of his intention to move next Session the following Address to Her Majesty relative to Peerages that have been in abeyance for a long period of years, in order that it might appear on the Minutes, and the House have an opportunity of considering the subject, without pledging himself to bring it forward:—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, showing,
  "That within the last century several Petitions have been presented to the Crown by Persons claiming to be Co-heirs of Peerages for many hundred years in abeyance; which Petitions have, according to ancient custom, been referred to the House of Lords to report thereon:
  "That the laborious investigations consequent on such reference necessarily occupy much of the time which would otherwise be devoted to the Judicial Business of the House, which is thereby interrupted to the inconvenience of the Lords and with injury to the Suitors:
  "That until the period referred to the Peerages called out of abeyance were few in number, and only in favour of Persons inheriting through immediate and well-known descent from the former holders of the said Peerages; whereas, in many cases of later date, that inheritance, from the long duration of the abeyance, has become remote, indirect, and generally unknown, until proved by the evidence brought before the House:
  "That the earliest precedent to be found for calling a Peerage out of abeyance is neither very ancient nor altogether free from the objection which necessarily attaches to any act done for the first time to meet a particular case, being that of the Barony of De Spencer, the abeyance of which was terminated by King James the First in 1604, in order to carry out the amicable arrangement suggested by the House of Lords for the purpose of relieving themselves from the duty of deciding in favour of One of the Two Claimants of the Barony of Abergavenny:
  "That an undue precedence appears to be given to the person in whose favour an abeyance for many generations is terminated over other barons of ancient descent inheriting their titles through a long series of ancestors; thus, in the first case referred to, when in 1764 an abeyance of 358 years was terminated, The Lord Botetourt then summoned sat as Third Lord only of that name, and yet took precedence before the Seventeenth Lord Audley and the Fifteenth Lord Stourton:
  "And humbly praying Her Majesty, that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to consider whether it is expedient to adhere to the established custom of referring all Petitions of Persons claiming Peerages to the House of Lords in any case in which it shall appear from such Petitions, or any Report of the Attorney General thereon, that the Peerage claimed is in abeyance, and has

  2289
  been so for more than Years; and that Her Majesty may be further graciously pleased to act in relation to such Peerages in such manner as may appear expedient to Her Majesty:"
  LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that the only remedy seemed to be to declare that after a peerage had been for a certain number of years in abeyance it should not be claimed. Otherwise right must be done; and their Lordships could not refuse a claimant his rights by saying that it was inconvenient to do him justice. He did not think the rights of the peerage would be impaired if it were laid down that a peerage should be no longer claimed after it had been 100 years in abeyance; but the only way to make Baronies in abeyance unclaimable would be to pass an Act of Parliament for that purpose.

  TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH INDIA.—QUESTION.
  LORD WODEHOUSE, in rising, pursuant to notice, to ask Her Majesty's Government their intentions respecting the establishment of telegraphic communication with India, said, that three distinct lines of communication had been proposed, in what he might call the western portion of the line, of which he would only say that many of the objections originally made to the line from Ragusa to Corfu and Alexandria seemed to have been removed, if he rightly understood the last proposal made by Her Majesty's Government to the Austrian Government. In his opinion it was desirable that as many of these lines should be constructed as possible in order that we might have several independent means of communication with India. In the Eastern portions of the route our choice seemed to lie between two lines—one from Bussora to Kurrachee, and the other along the line of the Red Sea. The efficiency of the first depended upon the Turkish Government, and he was not convinced that it would be a satisfactory mode of communication with India, the main objection being that the line was at the mercy of the Arabs who inhabited the wild country through which it passed. It was said that the telegraph was carried through districts in India where the tribes were quite as wild, but there was a great difference between the Governments of Turkey and India. It was true that the safety of this line might perhaps be secured by subsidizing the Arab tribes, and if the line were being made by an English company, the Arabs might have been subsidized by them; but at present the Turkish Government were con-
  2290
  structing the line, which would therefore be an object of jealousy to the Arabs, and the Ottoman Government might not have the influence necessary to maintain it. If the Turkish Government could succeed in making the line, it was very desirable that it should be constructed; yet, of the two, the line by way of the Red Sea seemed most likely to form an efficient mode of communication with India. The objections were principally of an engineering character. [A noble LORD: Jeddah?] The Arabs on the Red Sea might be unfriendly, but the line would be carried along the bottom of the sea. The engineering difficulties in the Red Sea being surmounted, he believed there would be no great difficulty in carrying the line from the south-east end of the Peninsula to Kurrachee or Bombay, and this he had no doubt would be the most satisfactory and secure mode of communicating with India. The question was, how this line was to be made? He believed that the proper course would be for the Government to make it at the public expense. They would then hold in their hands the key of the communication between India and Europe. It was not very creditable to the energy and enterprise of this country and of the Government that, at a time when telegraphic communication with India was of vital importance to the interests of this country, not only was no line in course of construction, but no project had been adopted which promised the speedy execution of a line of telegraphic communication; and he wished to know what were the intentions of the Government with regard to such communications.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, he quite agreed with the noble Lord in the importance of the subject, but he was unable to give him any special information that had not been already laid before Parliament. It was, no doubt, desirable that as many lines should be made as possible, but it was important that there should be one line, and the question was, which line of telegraphic communication with India could be secured in the shortest time. When the line of the Austrian Government from Ragusa to Alexandria should be completed there would be a telegraphic communication from London to Suez, because a line now existed between Alexandria and Suez. Unfortunately the Government had not been able to make an arrangement with the Austrian Government with regard to this line. There were some points in dispute between the two Govern-

  2291
  meats, and no absolute agreement had yet been come to. The telegraphic communication between Constantinople and Bussorah was to be made by an English Company, which had obtained the consent and support of the Ottoman Government. He admitted that portions of the line might be exposed to the attacks of hostile Arabs; but he believed that between Constantinople and Mosul no such difficulties would be encountered. The danger lay between Mosul and Bagdad, from the latter of which places it was intended to carry the telegraph in the bed of the Tigris to Bussorah, and thence by a submarine cable through the Persian Gulf to Kurrachee. For his own part, he was disposed to think that the route by the Persian Gulf was preferable to that by the Red Sea. In the first place, it was much shorter; and the experience with the Atlantic cable hardly warranted the anticipation that a submarine line could be laid down for so great a length as that of the Red Sea. In addition to this the depth of water in that sea was very various, and its bed was full of coral reefs. The Persian Gulf presented none of these difficulties. There were no great inequalities of bottom, and no coral reefs; and the gulf was studded with islands, on which, as they were under the authority of our ally the Imaum of Muscat, we might easily establish repeating stations, and over which the telegraph might be carried on poles—an advantage which we should not possess in the Red Sea. There was under the consideration of the Government another project—namely, to lay a submarine cable from the southern coast of England to Gibraltar, from Gibraltar to Malta, and thence to Alexandria, so that the whole line might be under our own control. This was a subsidiary project, and one which could not be expected to be carried out immediately; but, under all the circumstances, we should, within a reasonable period, have established telegraphic communication between London and Bombay and Calcutta.
  LORD STRATFORD DE REDCLIFFEwas understood to say, that the importance of having a telegraphic communication with India was so great that it did not require any observation to prove it. It was very satisfactory to find that it was in the contemplation of the Government to give every encouragement and offer every facility to parties promoting this object, and that would in the end be greatly for the advantage of the Government. The object most desirable was that this country
  2292
  should possess a telegraphic communication with India which should be quite independent of every other country, and which should not be subject to disturbances that might possibly take place. As to the line suggested to be constructed through the Austrian territories, he was afraid the noble Earl (the Earl of Donoughmore) had not taken into consideration some of the circumstances and difficulties connected with that line. Upon the whole, it appeared to him, from having had some acquaintance with the circumstances, that the Government should encourage the project for a telegraphic communication to India, by way of the Red Sea as well as by way of Constantinople.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that if he was rightly informed, the Directors of the East India Company had consented to take under their own management the construction of the submarine line from Bussorah to Kurrachee, and probably the new Indian Government would adopt a similar course. For his own part, he was inclined to think that, notwithstanding the danger from the Arabs, which there was reason to hope would be diminished by the presence at Bagdad of so energetic a governor as Omar Pasha, the line by the Persian Gulf would be the best of those proposed. At the same time he agreed with the noble Lord, that it was desirable that we should have more than one line of communication with India. The question then arose how we could best communicate with Alexandria, whether directly from Malta, or by means of the Austrian line from Ragusa to Corfu. If he understood the noble Earl rightly negotiations were still pending with the Austrian Government as to our use of the last mentioned line, and nothing had yet been settled. In the event of the telegraphic line in the Mediterranean going through British possessions, he trusted that the arrangements would be such that the whole line would be in the hands of the English, and no part of it in the power of any foreign Government. If the attempt to lay the electric cable in the Atlantic again failed, and the Agamemnon should return home with a sufficient length of wire for the purpose, he would recommend that she should be at once sent out to lay it down between Malta and Alexandria. This could be accomplished in a very economical manner, and he should be glad to see such a line in the possession of Her Majesty's Government. It had always seemed to him a mistake not to make telegraphic communica-

  2293
  tion part of the postal system of this country. Those lines could be constructed and maintained at a very moderate expense, and made even to contribute to the national resources, besides giving a security in the transmission of important messages which could never be so completely attained through a private Company even when it was composed of British capitalists, and certainly could not equally be relied upon when in the hands of foreigners, and much less when under the direction and control of a foreign Government.

BANKRUPTCY AND LIQUIDATION (1858) BILL.

  BILL PRESENTED. READ 1ª.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, on rising, according to notice, to call their Lordships' attention to this subject, said, that though there was a very wide-spread feeling in favour of some Amendment in the law of bankruptcy, yet the opinions entertained as to the mode in which that Amendment should be made were various and conflicting. Any one, therefore, who undertook the task of reforming this branch of the law must expect to be besieged on all sides by suggestions from practical men and theorists, from merchants and lawyers, and from debtors and creditors, all of whom were entitled to be heard on such a subject. Under these circumstances it was, perhaps, less a matter of surprise that his learned Friend the Attorney General, in the midst of his multifarious occupations, should have been so long in framing a measure on this important question than that in the end he should have been enabled to produce a Bill in a form which might be submitted to their Lordships' approval. Nor was it to be wondered at if, after the measure had been prepared by the industry and ability of his learned Friend, those who were to be responsible for it should, while assenting generally to its leading features, yet object to other—and those not unimportant—parts of it. The difficulties which surrounded the subject could not be better exemplified than in the history of preceding legislation on this subject. In 1849, a Bill to consolidate the bankruptcy law was introduced, and after the most careful consideration passed under the auspices of Lord Brougham, to whom the country was greatly indebted for his services in the amendment of this as well of other branches of the law. Not more than four years afterwards, however, defects seriously impairing the efficiency of that Act were discovered in its practical work-
  2294
  ing, and a Commission, at the head of which was my right hon. Friend the present Home Secretary (Mr. Walpole), was accordingly appointed in August, 1853, to inquire into its operation. In April, 1854, the Commissioners made their Report, recommending various alterations in the law, some of which had since then been carried into effect. Many of their other suggestions, however, had not yet been adopted, and some of them were embodied in the Bill which he was now about to lay on the table. He was not presumptuous enough to anticipate a complete acquiescence on the part of their Lordships in the Bill in its present shape. It had been said by Archbishop Whately, with that strong sense which distinguished all his writings, that there never was, and never would be any plan proposed or executed to which there might not be strong and even unanswerable objections urged, and unless they looked at the objections which might be put into the scale on the other side, they never could advance a single step. He, therefore, anticipated objections to several parts of the measure. He invited friendly, and even hostile criticism, because the question was not a party one, and the earnest desire entertained on all sides must be, to make whatever measure was ultimately passed as perfect as possible for its purpose. He now wished rather to point out the leading principles on which the Government meant to proceed in regard to this important subject than to ask their Lordships to agree to details which were both numerous and entitled to mature consideration. It would be found that the Bill combined Amendment with consolidation. He believed it was a most important consideration, not only with regard to this measure, but with regard to all measures for the Amendment of the law, whether it was desirable that these two objects should be united in the same Bill, or whether it was advisable to pursue the course which had been adopted by their Lordships with regard to the Copyholds Amendment Act, in respect to which the Amendments had been first considered and adopted, after which the consolidation of the Copyhold Acts took place. His impression was, that it was the more convenient and desirable course, in the first instance, to deal with the Amendments, and having introduced the Amendments which were deemed necessary, then to bring in a Bill for the consolidation of the law. His intention was to give their Lordships a mere index of the present Bill instead of a

  2295
  minute description of its details. Supposing the question were put at the outset, what would be the most desirable Amendment of the bankrupt law, and that which would be most acceptable to the commercial community, he would refer their Lordships for an answer to the important petition he had lately presented from no fewer than 4,000 merchants and bankers of the City of London, who put prominently forward their earnest wish that some legislative sanction should be given to the arrangement of debts by liquidation under the superintendence of inspectors. In that suggestion lay the principal key to the measure which he was about to introduce. There were provisions in this Bill which would enable creditors to avoid going through the expensive course of proceedings in the Bankruptcy Court in which, as their Lordships knew, there was a percentage upon the estate of every insolvent debtor who went into the Court, and in which the creditors had very little power over the proceedings, which were entirely under the control of the official assignee. By the provisions of this Bill either the creditor or the debtor might proceed to the Court of Bankruptcy, and there petition for an order with a view to liquidation. When the petition was presented the debtor immediately received a protection from the Court, and was bound instantly to prepare a schedule of his debts and assets. A meeting of creditors was then to be called within three or four days, at which meeting the creditors were to decide whether the estate of the bankrupt should be wound up by means of liquidation, and if so, in what manner; and if three-fourths in value and number of the creditors agreed that the estate should be wound up in that manner the agreement should be binding on all of them. They might then proceed in the Bankruptcy Court to obtain an order of liquidation in the manner agreed upon between them, and to appoint inspectors, and the debtor might be called upon to assist. The whole matter went on completely under their control and management; but they were not confined to the particular arrangement which had been agreed upon, because if, in the course of the investigation of the affairs of the bankrupt, it should be found that a different arrangement was more advisable, then they were to be at liberty to change the arrangement, of course with the consent of the majority of the creditors; or if the debtor should turn out to be refractory or if for any other reason it should be
  2296
  thought desirable that the affairs should be wound up in bankruptcy, they might abandon the arrangement altogether and proceed to ask for an adjudication in Bankruptcy. So that in this manner the whole affairs of the bankrupt would be completely within the power of the creditors. There were other provisions of minute detail, which would enable this machinery to work most completely and satisfactorily. Those provisions would not in the slightest degree interfere with the mode of winding up the affairs of an insolvent debtor which was now very much resorted to—namely, by deeds of arrangement and composition. That he regarded as a most important feature in this Bill. Then the question arose, how were they to deal with non-traders? At times a desire had been expressed that all distinction between traders and non-traders should be abolished, and that both alike should be subject to proceedings in bankruptcy. He had very great doubts whether it would be desirable to abolish that distinction; as at present advised, he did not think it would be advisable; but, at the same time, he thought it was proper that where a person who was not in trade had incurred debts which he was unable to pay, and where he went on wasting that substance which in justice should be distributed among his creditors, they ought to have the power of enforcing a just and honest distribution of his effects. It would accordingly be found that provision was made for enabling the creditors to compel a liquidation of the debts of non-trading debtors by means of the machinery provided with respect to traders. But that provision was guarded in a certain way, and for this reason it appeared to him that it would not be advisable, where a debt was merely owing, that the creditor should be able to go at once to the Bankruptcy Court and insist on the non-trading debtor being brought into the court and the whole of his effects being distributed in satisfaction of his debts. That provision was, therefore, thus guarded:—Where a creditor had a judgment upon which he could issue execution, or where there had been an order or decree of a Court, for the payment of money which had been served upon the debtor and had not been paid at a certain time, then the creditor might go to the Bankruptcy Court and present a petition for liquidation and obtain an order, whereupon the non-trading debtor was brought within the jurisdiction of the Bankruptcy Court and the machinery of this liquidation. In that manner he would

  2297
  be compelled to do justice to his creditors, which, if he was an honest man, he would be disposed to do without the necessity of having recourse to these measures. There was also this provision—that a person who was not a trader might, if he pleased, voluntarily submit himself to the proceedings of the Bankruptcy Court. There was another subject which, as their Lordships knew, had occupied a great deal of public attention—namely, the propriety of some measure for administering in the Bankruptcy Court the estates of insolvent debtors after their decease. There would be found in this Bill various clauses which were familiarly known as "dead men's clauses." The subject was full of difficulty. It was very difficult indeed to know under what circumstances it would be desirable that the Bankruptcy Court should have the administration of the estate of a deceased debtor instead of the Court of Chancery, which had now jurisdiction to administer or distribute the estate through the medium of a creditor's suit. Their Lordships were aware that where there was an adjudication against a debtor in bankruptcy, and he died the next day, the Bankruptcy Court, having possession as it were of his property, could administer it after his death. And therefore this Bill provided, with regard to the effects of a deceased insolvent debtor, that if there had been an act of bankruptcy committed a month before his death, and if there were an application for adjudication within a month after his death, the Bankruptcy Court should then have the power of administering his property. There was also in this Bill an important provision as to the mode of dealing with partnerships where a firm became insolvent. It was proposed to treat the firm itself as a person, and to allow a fiat in bankruptcy to issue against the firm in the same manner in which it might issue against individual partners, and to apply to it the system which existed with regard to corporate and quasi-corporate bodies, so as to enable the creditors to compel individual partners to satisfy the joint liabilities of the firm. At the same time that this was a new system it would not interfere with the old one as to insolvent individual partners where the firm itself remained solvent. The subject of joint-stock companies had of course occupied a great deal of public attention. Their Lordships were aware that those companies were amenable to the bankruptcy laws, but that the law relating to them could hardly
  2298
  be deemed a part of the bankruptcy code, because they were governed by Acts of Parliament relating exclusively to them. The law provided for the winding-up of joint-stock companies by the Court of Chancery, and for the administration of their effects by the Court of Bankruptcy. There had been a great contest between the authorities upon that subject, and the Legislature had endeavoured to remove all doubts upon it by bringing the two streams, as it were, into one receptacle. It was proposed to take away the business of winding up from the Court of Chancery, and to confer it upon the Bankruptcy Court. He believed that would be deemed upon the whole to be a very desirable alteration. It was proposed that the Bankruptcy Court should have, in addition to its existing powers, all the powers which existed under the Winding-up Acts, and that joint-stock companies should have the same facilities with regard to the liquidation of their debts as was afforded in the case of debtors and creditors in the manner already mentioned. If his noble and learned Friend Lord Brougham were then in the House he would probably say, "What are you going to do with the County Court Judges? Are you going to give them any increased jurisdiction on this subject?" His answer was, that he thought that the County Courts hardly possessed the machinery which rendered it desirable that they should have a more ample jurisdiction in these matters than they had at present, and he did not propose, therefore, to throw any portion of this business upon them. In the petition to which he had already referred, from the merchants and bankers of London, it was suggested that all distinctions between insolvency and bankruptcy should be abolished, and that traders and non-traders should be subjected to one common law. He did not know that the matter was quite ripe for that proposition; but he proposed that the vacancies which took place in the Insolvent Court as they occurred should not be filled up. He believed that the process of liquidation provided in the Bill would reduce the business of the Courts very considerably, and that in a short time they might be able to put an end to the Insolvent Court altogether, one Court being sufficient for the business which it would then have to transact. The Bill further provided that a good deal of the business of the Bankruptcy Commissioners, being purely of an administrative character, should be transacted in chambers, where it might be

  2299
  conducted more conveniently and less expensively than in open court. There were some of the officers of the Court to whom it was necessary to advert. His noble and learned Friend Lord Brougham had been extremely desirous that the official assignees should be paid partly by salary and partly by fees, and had objected altogether to their being paid by salary alone. The Bill did not at present touch that question, because it was quite uncertain what the effect of the proceedings for the liquidation of the affairs of an insolvent debtor might be, and it was very possible that it might remove so much of the business from the Bankruptcy Court as to leave the official assignees without sufficient emolument from fees. It would be time to consider this subject more in detail when they knew exactly what would be the amount of business. With respect to the brokers, they were not appointed under the provisions of any Act of Parliament, but were selected by each Commissioner to attend his Court, having the duty imposed upon them of taking a valuation, in every instance, of a bankrupt's effects. This valuation of a broker was a very costly and utterly useless proceeding, and it was proposed by the Bill to abolish it altogether, and to provide for a valuation either under the authority of the Court or with the sanction of the creditors, as might be considered most advisable. And inasmuch as those persons were not appointed under any Act of Parliament, and had no legal claim to their offices, they could have no title to compensation on the abolition of their offices. There was another matter which had led to much litigation, and on which it was necessary to legislate—that was with respect to the classification of certificates. As the law now stood, there were three classes of certificates,—first, second, and third,—which were awarded according to the supposed merits or demerits of the bankrupt. [Lord CAMPBELL: Do away with them altogether.] His noble and learned Friend had anticipated him. The Bill proposed to do exactly what his noble and learned Friend had suggested. The Commissioners took different views of what constituted moral delinquency. Then came appeals to the Lord Chancellor or to the Lords Justices, and a great amount of time was wasted in considering the kind of certificate which a bankrupt ought to receive. The Bill abolished the distinction. There was only one other point—but it was a very important one—
  2300
  to which it was necessary to direct attention, and that was with regard to the offences of bankrupts and insolvents, and their punishment. He was astonished to find that the bankers and merchants of the City of London desired to give the Commissioners power to punish fraudulent bankrupts or insolvents by sending them to the House of Correction. Now, he must say that he never would consent to invest any man with the arbitrary power of sending a person to prison without the intervention of a jury; and therefore he could not consent to that proposition, although he might observe, in passing, that his hon. and learned Friend (the Attorney-General) who prepared the Bill originally seemed to have given his adhesion to it. The offences peculiar to bankrupts, such as the falsification of accounts, the concealment of property and the like, would require a great deal of consideration, because the language of the Bill, as originally framed, was not sufficiently precise to exclude from the operation of the punishment clauses various dealings which he believed were considered to be perfectly legitimate in the city of London—among others, the accepting of accommodation Bills. He mentioned this in the hope that during the recess their Lordships would direct their particular attention to this portion of the Bill. He himself should devote all the time in his power to it, and should endeavour, as cautiously and guardedly as he could, to frame those clauses so as to meet cases of real delinquency. He hoped that he had kept his word with their Lordships, and that he should not be considered to have entered too minutely into details. He had endeavoured to make his remarks serve rather as an index to the Bill, pointing out the more important provisions which it contained. He trusted that those who took an interest in the subject would give him the benefit of their assistance and advice in considering most carefully the clauses of the Bill, in order that at the commencement of next Session the Government might be enabled to introduce a measure which would prove beneficial to the public, and would receive the ready acceptance of the whole commercial community.
  The noble and learned Lord then presented
  A Bill to amend the Law of Debtor and Creditor, and of Insolvency and Bankruptcy, and to enable and facilitate the liquidation by creditors of a Debtors Estate,

  2301
  and the Administration of Estates of Insolvent Trailers, deceased.
  LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he would content himself with expressing his entire approbation of the course which had been taken in this matter by his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack, in having deliberately considered the subject, and having favoured their Lordships with an outline of the measure which he proposed. This certainly was no party question, and all must be anxious to assist his noble and learned Friend in framing his measure so that it should be generally acceptable to the public. He trusted that his noble and learned Friend would consider whether means could not be adopted for abolishing the distinction between traders and non-traders, and he suggested that a perusal of the Scottish bankruptcy laws might enable him to arrive at a solution of that question. The Scotch laws upon the subject generally were worthy of consideration; for he believed that under them the expense of working the commission and distributing the effects of a bankrupt did not exceed charge of 7 per cent upon the estate, as contrasted with about 30 per cent under the English law.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The pamphlet has been sent to me also, but I find that it does not praise, but condemns, the Scotch system.
  LORD CAMPBELL: The proof I gave of the system was 7 per cent as contrasted with 30 per cent—a considerable proof of our Scotch advancement.
  LORD CRANWORTHexpressed his satisfaction at the lucid statement of his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack. In most of the propositions of his noble and learned Friend he entirely concurred, though of course he could not be expected to give in his assent to all the details without further consideration. He was glad that the noble and learned Lord proposed to amend before consolidating, for of course until it was settled what the law on the subject was to be, it was impossible to proceed to consolidate it. He sincerely hoped, that in the course of the next Session, a comprehensive measure of Amendment and consolidation on this subject would pass into law.
  Bill read 1ª.

  GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
  Lords' Amendments agreed to.
  Returned from the Commons, with a Message, That they do not insist on their.
  2302
  Disagreement to the Amendments made by the Lords on which the Lords insist, and that they agree to the further Amendment made by the Lords to the Bill.

  DIVORCE AND MATRIMONIAL CAUSES ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
  Lords' Amendments not insisted on.
  Message from the Commons that they insist on their Amendment to which the Lords disagree, with their Reason for so doing; and agree to the Amendments made by the Lords to certain of the Commons' Amendments to the said Bill.
  Commons' Reason for insisting on their Amendment to which the Lords have disagreed, considered.
  Moved. not to insist in the Disagreement to the said Amendment; agreed to; and a Message sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
  House adjourned at a quarter to Nine o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter to Two o'clock.