Sitting of 15 April 1858

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Chancery Amendment; Chelsea Hospital (Purchase of Lands).

WATERLOO AND WESTMINSTER BRIDGES.—QUESTION.
SIR WILLIAM FRASERsaid, he would beg to ask the noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of Works whether there is any objection to the Bridge about to be erected over the Thames next above Waterloo Bridge being called Sebastopol Bridge? Also, whether there is any intention of providing additional means of crossing the Thames for vehicles, either by building a Bridge near Charing Cross, or by purchas-
1110
ing Waterloo Bridge, and opening it free of toll?
LORD JOHN MANNERS: My hon. and gallant Friend will doubtless remember that a short time ago, on the occasion of the visit of the Emperor and Empress of the French to this country, it was gravely proposed and maturely considered whether it would not be proper to change the name of Waterloo Bridge and Trafalgar Square, out of a supposed compliment to those illustrious personages; but the good sense of the country decided that it was not the right time to do so, and the proposal was very properly overruled. With regard to the suggestion now submitted to the House, I think we ought not to put out of our consideration the fact to which I have just alluded; but I must fairly own that there is yet another objection which would apply to the proposal of my hon. Friend. It was said that during the prosecution of the war in the Crimea that "too late" was applicable to a great many of our arrangements there; and I am inclined to think that that observation will apply with equal force to the proposal of my hon. and gallant Friend. If his proposal had been made at the moment when that war was brought to a termination, no doubt it would have been received with great favour by a large section of the community; but now that the attention of the country is excited by the glorious achievements and heroic sufferings of our army in India, I think it would be rather out of place to make the change. If my hon. and gallant Friend wishes to know my private opinion, I think that altogether it would be better to let the name of Westminster Bridge remain, associated as it is, and has been, for so long a period with the place in which we perform our legislative functions. With regard to his other question, I can only say, that so far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned, we have no intention whatever of proposing to create another Bridge across the Thames for the benefit of the metropolitan community.

LIGHTHOUSES, ETC.

  ADDRESS MOVED FOR.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, he rose to call the attention of the House to the present modes of superintending the lights, buoys, and beacons on the coasts of Great Britain and Ireland; and to the manner in which funds are now, and have been raised to defray the expenditure there-

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  on, and to move for an Address in relation to this subject. He felt it incumbent on him in the first place to apologize—holding but a subordinate position in the House—for venturing to propose a Motion which would involve a considerable reform in the system of lighting and buoying the coast of the United Kingdom, and eventually the expenditure of public money. Feeling that this important question ought to be brought before the House by some Member of weight and influence, he had earnestly requested many hon. Gentlemen, who thought a reform on this subject necessary, to take charge of the Motion; but they had requested him, as a seafaring man, to submit it to the notice of the House. Under these circumstances, it would be his duty to point out that this great maritime country, which had been the pioneer of free and unrestricted intercourse among nations, was, he regretted to say, the lowest among the nations as regards the lighting and buoying the coasts. He thought his best course to pursue would be to show the danger to life and property which arose from the present utter want of system, and then to move an Address to Her Majesty, praying that measures might be taken to give effect to the recommendation of the Select Committee on Lighthouses of 1845. He believed that no person would dispute that it was a matter of most vital importance to mariners that there should be a simple and uniform system of lighting and buoying the coast of the country, with as few and as uncomplicated regulations as possible. He would give an example of the present system of lighting and buoying on our coast, and then he would refer to the system which prevailed in France; but before doing so he begged to offer his sincere thanks to the French Minister for Public Works, and more particularly to the gentleman at the bead of the French lighthouses, M. Leonce Reynaud, for the very ample materials which they had drawn up for his guidance. Let him observe, however, that the French were not alone in making reforms in this matter, the United States of America had done the same. Russia, too, and even Spain and Portugal, and the smaller countries of Europe, had paid great attention, of late years, to the lighting and buoying of their coasts, and establishing a system of uniformity and simplicity. But reverting to the system—or rather want of system—in this country, it was well known that we had a great many bar harbours,
  1112
  especially on the south coast. Mariners, in passing up and down Channel, were continually caught in gales of wind, and obliged of necessity to bear up; frequently it happened from the state of the weather that they could not get a pilot on board, and the result was that they had to take their chance and run for it, on a lee shore. Now he found by the book of sailing directions that the following were the signals displayed at different ports:—At Shoreham, which was a bar harbour, a red flag was hoisted when there were eleven feet and upwards of water in harbour; and a blue and white pendant at high water. At the neighbouring port of Newhaven, when there was from eight to ten feet of water at the entrance, one black ball was displayed, and when it was high water two black balls. At Dovor a red flag with a black ball indicated that the water was from seven to ten feet, and a red flag alone that it was from ten to thirteen. Going to the north, at Sunderland, a red flag, half-mast high, showed when there was eight feet of water on the bar, and when there were ten feet the flag was hoisted to the masthead. At Scarborough a white ball was displayed when there was ten feet of water at the entrance of the new harbour; at Blakeney, a blue flag when there was nine feet of water on the bar; at Wells, a black ball and basket when there was ten feet on the bar; and at Arbroath, in Scotland, a blue flag with a black ball when the water was under ten feet. Suffice it to say, that every harbour in this country was lighted, and its system of signals established upon a footing entirely distinct from and independent of its neighbours. Hon. Gentlemen were aware that the public lights on the coast of England were under the control of the Trinity Board; those on the coast of Scotland were managed by the Northern Light Commissioners; and those on the coast of Ireland were under the charge of the Dublin Ballast Board. These three bodies were indirectly under the control of the Board of Trade, but only so far as questions of finance were concerned. Besides these, there were many smaller corporations who lighted and buoyed their harbours independently of the Board of Trade. He wished to assure the House that, in bringing forward this subject, he was far from intending to make an attack upon the Trinity House, or to impute to it the jobbery which was formerly a distinguishing feature of that old corporation. His object was simply to

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  show that the lighting and buoying of our coasts were conducted upon no definite system. He had already given examples with respect to the signals adopted at several harbours, and he might add that the system of buoying was conducted in the same manner. Every little harbour had its own buoys; all prepared with the utmost care, and laid down with a laudable anxiety for the welfare of the shipping interest. It had been his fortune to have sailed much about the English coast, and he did not hesitate to say that at every port he visited the corporate authorities were most desirous of rendering it safe for the approach of vessels; but, unfortunately, every port had its own system of buoying. If hon. Gentlemen would examine a chart of the Thames, they would observe that at the entrance of the river the system of buoying was as complicated as could well be imagined. On approaching the Prince's Channel, the Queen's Channel, or the Margate Channel, such was the confused system adopted that no stranger, without having a pilot, could possibly avoid danger even with the utmost caution. Some ten or eleven years ago he called the attention of a gentleman connected with the Trinity House to the lamentable state of buoying in the Thames, observing that it was impossible for any foreign ship caught in a gale of wind off the Gallopers to get into the river without imminent risk that the vessel would be lost with all hands. The gentleman asked how he proposed to remedy the evil? He replied, by simply adopting the system which prevailed throughout Europe, of having buoys of one colour on one side the Channel, buoys of another colour on the opposite side, and buoys of a third colour, or striped, upon the middle banks. According to the French system, on the approach from sea, a red buoy was on the starboard or right side, a black buoy was on the port or left side, and striped buoys were placed upon banks in mid-channel. There could, therefore, be no difficulty in navigating any channel, however intricate. The gentleman replied, "Of course, we know that; but if we were to buoy the Thames in such a manner, no ship would ever take a pilot." So that hundreds of lives were to be imperilled in order that employment might be afforded to pilots! He reasoned with the gentleman, and urged that this was hardly a sufficient justification. The rejoinder he received was that there was a stronger reason, for it was said, "If the Thames
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  were buoyed upon such a system, the French fleet might sail up any night and burn Chatham." For his own part he (Lord C. Paget) regarded both these objections as puerile, and he thought it a lamentable circumstance that a great maritime and commercial nation, which had a greater amount of commerce and a larger number of her sons afloat than any other in the world, should be behind every country in Europe in rendering the approaches to its ports clear and safe. He was bound, however, to except Scotland from this condemnation; for the Commissioners of Northern Lights had issued a notice that the whole of their buoys would be arranged upon the French system. The papers he had received on the authority of the French Government were, in his view, so valuable, that he intended to place them in the hands of the President of the Board of Trade; for he thought, as he had honestly told the French authorities, that great benefit would be conferred upon our shipping interest by taking a "leaf out of their book." The French system, he might observe, was not confined to France, but was applied to the buoying of the Scheldt and the Elbe (the navigation of which was very difficult), and had, indeed, been generally adopted throughout Europe. The French signals, also, consisted of a simple system of balls, which were preferable to flags, because in calm weather balls were always visible, while flags fell to the mast and could not be seen. So simple was the French system, that a man who had the chart before him might safely enter any harbour along the seaboard of France. In the remarks which he was now addressing to the House he was anxious to keep the question of light dues entirely clear of another question —that of the local dues and passing tolls —which had recently agitated the shipping interest, and was of such importance that he thought it was worthy of separate discussion, and ought not to be mixed up with the present Motion, which he regarded more in the interest of humanity than as having reference to any wrongs from which the shipping interest were suffering. From the able statement which had been furnished him by the French Government, he gathered that the coast of France, extending 1,500 miles, was lighted by 210 lights. These lights were of two descriptions, one being the catoptric and the other the dioptric. The former were constructed upon the old reflecting principle; they were nothing more than a

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  lamp, and reflectors behind. In modern days, however, M. Leonor Fresnel had invented a system of lenticular lights, which had been improved by a Scotch gentleman named Stephenson, and which being not only more brilliant but more economical than the lights formerly in use, had been adopted almost universally on the Continent. These were the dioptric lights. Of the French lights, 154 were upon the dioptric and 56 upon the old reflector principle. Turning now to England, he found, by a Return for 1856, that there were upon the English coast, under the Trinity House, 114 public lights, while on the Scotch there were 45, and on the Irish coast 65. For these 224 lights we paid £350,000 a year, while the French for their 210 lights paid only £48,000. Of this £48,000, £11,665 were for new works and £8,000 for buoys and beacons, so that the actual cost of maintaining the French lights was only £28,350. It should be remembered, moreover, that while three-fourths of the French lights were on the dioptric principle, only seventeen, or about one-sixth, wore so lighted in England. Now, he did not wish to overstate his case. He was aware that, in order to make a fair comparison between the two countries, various details should be taken into consideration. Thus material and labour were dearer hero than in France; and the French had but one floating light, whereas there were thirty-eight of these in England, and four, he believed, in Ireland. But he asked whether, when so great a contrast prevailed between the cost of the lights of this country and those of France, it was not time that public opinion should be brought to bear upon these matters. The President of the Board of Trade had kindly given him access to the accounts preserved there, from which it appeared that, in 1856, for the maintenance of lighthouses we paid £139,508 to the Trinity House, £38,139 to the Port of Dublin Corporation, and £30,359 to the Northern Lighthouse Commissioners, making a total of about £208,000, the residue being applied to the payment of pensions, charities, &c, making in all £353,000. He would confine his remarks to the Trinity House lights; and with respect to these it was impossible for anybody to believe that due care and economy were exercised in the expenditure of public money, more particularly when the House reflected that that money was paid by a class of the commu-
  1116
  nity which suffered from the open competition of foreign trade, and the difficulties of which were year by year increasing. He thought it behoved Parliament, on behalf of the shipping interest, narrowly to watch this expenditure, and to ascertain that not one shilling was spent over and above the sum absolutely necessary for the due maintenance of our lighthouses. Now, he had gone very carefully through the details, and found that the average cost of a first-class French lighthouse for éclairage and repairs was about £390 per annum; of a second-class light, £303; and of a third-class, £142. He would allow for the land lights of England a sum beyond the cost of the first-class French lights— namely, £400 a year, although many of the former were second and third-class lights; and he thought there would be no difficulty in reducing our expenditure to £200,000, including £50,000 for new works for the next year. There were certain places where the Government had wisely determined to build new lighthouses, and he was informed by the Board of Trade that about £50,000 would be sufficient for that purpose. As old systems could not be got rid of without a certain amount of compensation to retiring officials, he would allow £14,000 under this head, and for the establishment of a small central Board. Such a Board, comprising an intelligent engineer, with, perhaps, an officer under the Board of Trade to assist him, and a few local engineers to watch the lights, would assimilate our system to that of the French, and would effect a groat saving of expense. He proposed to get rid of a large staff of steamers, of which there were now seven, including the Irish and Scotch boats. The Trinity House maintained five, at a cost of from £27,000 to £30,000 a year. But was it not absurd that in this country, with such an enormous marine, with gunboats in shoals upon the slips in the dockyards, with an immense number of small steamers at command, and with coast-guard vessels, and their tenders now distributed round our coasts, the lighthouses should not be looked after by our navy? Such an arrangement would effect a saving of £30,000 a year. Then there remained that ancient corporation, the Trinity House. He did not at all wish to urge that that corporation should die along with its twin brother, now awaiting the judgment of Parliament. On the contrary, he should be very glad if the House could arrange that the Trinity House

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  should compose the central Board, the establishment of which he suggested. He greatly doubted, however, whether they would ever get an old corporation to amend its ways so completely as to introduce the reform and economy required. One of the boats maintained by them was a steam yacht. Now, he had a very great respect for the Elder Brethren, and was very glad that they should take an airing on the water when they pleased, and their other duties permitted; but let them do it at their own expense. He would now proceed to show the House that the French system of lights was far superior in brilliancy to our own, and he might further observe, that it was clearly demonstrated in the Report which had been issued by the Board of Trade for the benefit of our Colonies last year, that no possible force of reflector could equal in brightness a lenticular light of the second order even. Any person who happened to be leaving Folkestone on his way to Paris on a fine night, and was fortunate enough not to be sea-sick, might observe a magnificent bright light as it were at his feet, while he might also perceive a little light, such as apparently might be produced by a farthing candle. The latter proceeded from Dungeness, which was only about twelve miles; the former light from Cape Grisnez which was twenty-five miles distant. Was it not, he would ask, disgraceful to this country that she should be so far behind France in so important a particular? It might be said, indeed, that the expense of changing our system of lights was one which was too heavy to be incurred without much deliberation; but he was sure the House would not be of that opinion, when he informed it, that the outlay which would be required in order to change a first class light from the catoptric to the dioptric principle did not exceed £2,000. He, therefore, saw no reason why, when we were paying over £350,000 per annum in the shape of light-dues, we should not place our system of lights on the very best and most modern footing. He had referred to the case of Dungeness, to show that we had not done so in one most important instance; and he might also adduce the case of the Lizard, the North Foreland, Beachy Head, as well as of many other first-class lighthouses, in support of the proposition which he had advanced. He could not, under those circumstances, as a seafaring man and one who took a considerable interest in the subject, help urging
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  upon the Government the necessity of carrying out the change which he proposed. In the Report issued by the Board of Trade, to which he had already alluded, it was stated that the increase of brilliancy arising from the adoption of the new system would be in the ratio of two or three to one, and that the expense, once the system was established, would be less than that of the old. It was no doubt true, that if his Motion were carried it would be necessary that an outlay of £200,000 for the next year would be required. He should, however, at once relieve the minds of hon. Gentlemen upon that point, by assuring them that he did not intend to ask for any expenditure of the public money for a period of two years. There were £400,000, or something approaching that amount, in the shape of surplus light dues available at the Board of Trade, and he should suggest to the Government that it could convert that sum to no better use than the carrying out the proposed change in our system of lights. That amount would be sufficient to meet the expenditure for the next two years, and at the end of that period the country might be so fortunate as to possess an overflowing exchequer. At all events, he believed there would be no difficulty as regarded expense at the end of the two years, as the utmost amount of expenditure that would then be required would be £150,000. He had calculated that an outlay of £50,000 would be necessary, in the first instance, for the construction of new works; but when those works were completed a new and perfectly efficient system, comprising a total of 373 lights, including 149 harbour lights belonging to various small corporations, for which dues were now levied by such corporations independently of the Board of Trade, might, he had no hesitation in saying, be maintained at a cost of £150,000 per annum. Under those circumstances, he called upon the House, with the utmost confidence, to assent to the Motion which he had to submit to its notice, and to take the management of our lights out of the hands of the Trinity Board as at present constituted. The present system was, in fact, one of the worst forms of double government. The coil which they were now seeking to get rid of, in relation to India, would be perpetuated in this country so long as they kept up the Trinity Board, the Northern Lights Commission, the Irish Board, and the Marine Department of the Board of Trade. Did he not

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  feel indisposed to trespass too long upon the attention of the House, he should have felt it to be his duty to enter into the history of that system of jobbery under whoso operation our shipowners had so long suffered, and under which they were suffering to the present day. Full details upon the subject were, however, to be found in the reports which had emanated from two Committees, one of which had sat in 1834, and the other in 1845, and which had been presided over by one of the most useful and indefatigable Members who had ever sat within the walls of the House of Commons— he meant the late Mr. Joseph Hume. It would also be seen by the Report of the Committee of 1845, that the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton had divided the Committee in favour of the proposition of placing our lights under one central system, and against that which sought to convert the Trinity House into the Board by which that central system was to be carried into effect. The Trinity Board was a self-elected body, and the noble Lord thought the introduction of one-third of its members, upon the nomination of the Crown, would cure some of the evils which were complained of. The noble Lord, however, unfortunately did not succeed in that object. He would next say a few words upon the amount of debt lately paid off by the shipping interest of this country, amounting to no less than £1,281,000. It was manifest that the debt had been incurred by means of a system of improvident leases which had been granted, sometimes by Parliament, sometimes by the Trinity House, and sometimes by the Kings of former days, who, when they had a favourite to reward, and found a difficulty in doing so, seemed to have thought the best means of carrying out their intention was to give him a lighthouse. There was one gentleman who got a lighthouse because his wife was the daughter of the Earl of Leicester. Even so late as the reign of George III. the same sort of thing occurred, and in the Grenville Correspondence there was this passage:—
  "Mr. Grenville went to London, August 13 (1764). The King received him with great good humour and confidence, talked much to him upon the two Secretaries of State—greatly blaming their conduct towards Mr. Grenville, and concurring himself in sentiment with Mr. Grenville upon his foreign business. Mr. Grenville, finding His Majesty in these gracious dispositions, took an opportunity to apprise His Majesty that there was a grant for a lighthouse in the disposal of the Trea-
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  sury. He humbly asked His Majesty to bestow this upon him, as a provision for his younger children, who, from various circumstances relating to the unhappy state of his own family, might be left in difficulties. The King was graciously pleased to grant it, and did it with expressions of great kindness to Mr. Grenville."
  That was very gracious of the King, but what did the shipowners say of it? They were saddled with another improvident lease, and, notwithstanding the recommendations of Committees, a fresh lease was granted, in 1826, to Lord Braybrooke, of a lighthouse, who based his claim for a renewal upon the fact that his family had held leases of the light for 160 years. There were other details, into which he could not enter, but which were perfectly disgraceful. A sum of £250,000 had to be paid to the owners of private lights for loss of dues upon foreign shipping. When foreign nations demanded to be placed upon a footing of reciprocity, and to be released from the payment of double dues, the loss of income to the light owners which ensued from a compliance with those demands amounted to a considerable sum. That sum used to be paid annually from the Treasury of the United Kingdom, and when the lights were about to be purchased the owner naturally calculated those sums as part of their revenue. The Treasury, however, refused to pay in respect to those sums, and consequently the shipowners had to pay an additional amount of £250,000. The last point upon which he would touch was the effect of those dues upon foreigners. He confessed, he thought that, while all the principal foreign nations admitted our ships into their ports free of all light dues, it was quite beneath the dignity of this country to levy a miserable tax upon their vessels which visited our coast. Those charges had been the subject of much sharp correspondence between the American and our own Government, and he thought the former were perfectly justified in their complaints. For these reasons, he submitted to the House that it was high time that the question should be dealt with. He had no desire to put down the Trinity House if it were possible to make that body efficient; but, he felt it to be his duty to impress upon the House, that as long as the lighthouses of this country were left in different and independent hands, without any system of uniformity, our coast lights would be discreditable to the nation. He urged this matter also because he believed the shipowners of this country had undoubted claims to be

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  considered in reference to it. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing his last Budget, had referred to this subject, and expressed an opinion that it was indefensible that shipowners should have to pay a large sum, which was, in fact, interest paid to the Trinity House, for the purchase of private leases which had been improvidently granted in former times. He therefore claimed the support of the right hon. Gentleman, as well as of the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, upon this occasion; and, with that support, he hoped to obtain for his Motion the assent of the House. The noble Lord concluded by moving—
  "That this House will, upon Thursday next, resolve itself into a Committee, for the purpose of considering an Address to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to direct that measures may be taken for giving effect to the recommendation of the Select Committee on Lighthouses of 1845— namely, 'That all expenses for the erection and maintenance of lighthouses, floating lights, buoys, and beacons, on the coast of the United Kingdom, be henceforth defrayed out of the public revenue.' "
  MR. LINDSAYseconded the Motion.
  MR. HENLEY: I have to thank the noble Lord for the able and temperate manner in which he has brought forward this important subject. In dealing with it, however, I am thankful to find myself relieved from more than one difficulty. I am in no way responsible for the constitution, or rather for the arrangement of the present system, otherwise than in common with every other Member of this House. I am also relieved from the difficulty of discussing this in any sense as a party question, because it is within my own knowledge that the noble Lord would have brought forward this Motion, probably in the very same terms, though no change of Government had taken place. This relieves me from a difficulty, because I feel that the House will now consider the question on its own merits, and without reference to the state of political parties. I agree with the noble Lord in every word he has said; and I have often expressed the same opinion to the House, that it is indefensible that the shipping interest should have borne the charges of buying up those private interests on which the noble Lord has touched. That point, however, may well be left out of our consideration, because the debt has been wholly discharged, and all the annuitants have disappeared. I should have been glad, however, if the noble Lord had addressed his Motion to the system of management of lighthouses,
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  and that he had left untouched the question who was to pay for them. These are two distinct and separate questions. We have all a common interest in putting our lighthouses upon the most economical and approved system that can be carried out in this country. I think the noble Lord, in the able statement which he has made, has not dealt quite candidly with some parts of the question. The noble Lord very fairly said that there was no information which it was in my power to afford him on the subject, which I did not with the utmost readiness place at his disposal. My opinion was that on a subject of this importance it was desirable to have the plainest and simplest statement of the facts put before the House that it was possible to obtain. What I complain of is that, in the comparison drawn by the noble Lord between the expense of lights in this country and in France, he has not dealt quite candidly with that part of the question. Taking from a Parliamentary return the amount of money paid for light dues the noble Lord has stated the expense of maintaining lights in this country at £350,000. [Lord C. PAGET: £208,000.] The noble Lord contrasted the sum of £350,000 expended, as be said, in England, with that of £48,000 paid in France, whereas in point of fact the actual charge of the maintenance of the English lights is £208,000 instead of £350,000. That is no inconsiderable difference. But the noble Lord has omitted from his statement one very material clement as to the expense of our lights as compared with the cost of the lights in France. I believe that the French do not keep up more than one light vessel. The charge for light vessels is a most important one in this country, and has reference to another heavy charge. I will show the House how these things stand with us. The average annual cost of lighthouses in England for maintenance and repairs is £27,000. The average annual cost of light vessels, with repairs, is £37,000. Hence the' light vessels, which the noble Lord did not bring under the notice of the House, actually cost more than the maintenance of the lighthouses. [Lord C. PAGET: I gave the amount.] Another important question is this. The noble Lord did not very accurately distinguish what number of the French lighthouses were harbour lights. I have not the means of information which the noble Lord has of the French system, but I believe that a large number—above 200—of

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  those lighthouses which he spoke of as costing £48,000, are what we call harbour lights, maintained at a small expense. As far as I could gather, the noble Lord said that the average annual cost of French lighthouses of the first class was nearly £400. [Lord C. PAGET: £390.] The, English, lighthouses consist of 48 first-class lighthouses, 11 second class, 12 fourth class; and the average cost of their maintenance and repairs is £387. So that when the real expense of the lighthouses of the countries is compared, our system does not stand in the disadvantageous light which the noble Lord supposes. The next matter touched upon by the noble Lord was one of great importance. I mean the system of buoys. If we were now, for the first time, establishing a system of buoys, such a system as that referred to by the noble Lord would have a great deal to recommend it, and in many cases would probably be preferable to the course we now follow. But we must recollect that the French coast differs in some respects from the English, and that buoys, though they might be advantageous in France, would not be found to work equally well in this country. We have the estuary of the Thames divided into three separate channels not far distant from each other. It is of the greatest importance that the captain of a vessel should know in which of the channels he was. A red or a black buoy would not give him this information. This great estuary of the Thames and of many of our other great rivers is traversed by thousands of vessels without pilots. The masters, mates, seamen, and boys of which have grown up with a knowledge of every particular spot marked in a particular way. These parties have been accustomed to see a black, white or checkered mark on a particular place, and it is clear, therefore, that, however fine in theory it might be to commence a new system, we should run a vast risk in making the change, and do far more mischief than good. I mention this because there is no indisposition on the part of the light authorities to adopt a simple system of the kind referred to, whenever it is found advisable. Another point touched upon by the noble Lord was with reference to the dioptric and reflecting lights, and the noble Lord complained that the English lights were not all of the improved kind. Now, as far as I am informed, all the lights, when they require to be renewed,
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  are renewed on the best and most improved plan. The noble Lord says that it would cost only some £2000 to change the old lights for the new. Considering the number of lights we have, I think it would scarcely be advisable for those who have the management of the light duos to go to the expense of substituting all at once the new light for the old. The system adopted appears to have been to substitute the improved light for the old reflecting light whenever a change was required, and I believe that a duo regard for economy is the best justification for this course. The next point touched upon by the noble Lord was the steam boats, which he said were maintained at a very great cost. No doubt the Admiralty, if it thought fit, could perform all the duty of those boats; but that would only shift the expense from one hand to the other. The Admiralty would, in that case, ask for additional grants, and upon the whole, I do not believe the expense would be diminished. From the great number of light ships we had it was necessary to have these steamers for the purpose of taking up the buoys and of visiting the light ships every six months or so. I now come to a most important part of the subject, with regard to which I am not prepared widely to differ from the noble Lord. I mean that part which relates to the management. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Cardwell) in 1853 effected a very great change in this matter, and I doubt whether he did not lay the grounds of still further changes. Antecedent to that period the light dues collected in England were applied to English purposes, those collected in Scotland to the Scotch lights, and in Ireland to the Irish lights. The right hon. Gentleman made a common fund of them. The large amount of light dues collected in England, where the traffic is more considerable, was made applicable to the building of lighthouses in Scotland and in Ireland, where it was of advantage to the shipping interest that lighthouses should be, and where the amount of dues collected was small. This appears to lay the foundation for a more uniform management. Even in a short experience of the present system every one will discover that it entails a great deal of trouble and correspondence, in consequence of what the noble Lord very aptly calls the double government. But at present I am not prepared to say that I see any evil results as far as the management of the expenditure is con-

  1125
  cerned. These are two very different questions. At the same time, I cannot affirm that the system under single management might not be more economical and simple. The noble Lord raised a much larger question than this. The noble Lord desires to place every harbour light and every one of the lesser lights under central management. These are now to a certain degree controlled though their revenues are kept separate. Now this very large and important subject has not escaped the attention of the Government, and one large portion of the question not touched by the noble Lord I will shortly allude to. I refer to the duty which is thrown upon the Board of Trade of erecting what arc called colonial lights. At present the charge on the Consolidated Fund on that head is some £40,000 or £50,000 a year, but I cannot say that it is altogether on a satisfactory footing. I think great advantage will arise to the public if a Royal Commission were issued to inquire into the whole subject of the management of these lighthouses. The Motion of the noble Lord touches only one point of the question. At present it would be premature to transfer off-hand, without due inquiry, a charge of £200,000 or £300,000 to the public exchequer from the shoulders of other parties. The noble Lord alluded to a sum of £400,000, which he said some gentlemen who visited me supposed was in my keeping and at my disposal. I can assure him that he was wholly wrong in that supposition. No one bad brought to my knowledge the existence of such a sum, and therefore I could not be asked to dispose of it in the manner stated. I have looked to see from what source this sum of £400,000 has arisen. It is a sum of money formed from time to time of the surplus of light dues, and it remains in a sort of standing balance to meet the charges for the new works which are continually required. So far from having that nest-egg at my disposal, no allusion was made to it by the gentlemen in question. I believe I have touched on all the points mentioned by the noble Lord. I believe our present system of management is not so disadvantageous to the public as the noble Lord supposes. If we knew how many of the French lights were harbour lights, I believe we should find our system not so expensive as the noble Lord thinks. I am not prepared to say that if we had a central management, that the expense might not be less, but then the
  1126
  House must remember that we cannot sweep away an ancient system without increasing largely the amount of superannuations. Taking England, Ireland, and Scotland together, the superannuations at present amount to not less than £20,000 a year, a very heavy item, which forms part of the existing annual expenditure. Any extensive alteration in the system of management will, of course, involve an increase of superannuation allowances, and it might be without corresponding benefits. If the Motion of the noble Lord is carried there must of necessity be a central Board of management, for it is impossible that so large a sum of money as that which the noble Lord proposes to throw upon the public exchequer can be administered by irresponsible parties, or, at all events, by parties not so fully responsible as a public board would be. Though the Board of Trade at present possesses a certain power of control I am ready to admit that the fact cannot be concealed that there is in some sense a divided responsibility. At the same time I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his Motion and accept the proposition of the Government to issue a Royal Commission as more likely to lead to a satisfactory solution of the question. A Royal Commission, properly constituted, and investigating the whole subject with all its difficulties, will either satisfy the public that the present system of management is a good one, or point out the best mode of making the requisite changes. I trust, therefore, that the noble Lord will not put the House to the trouble of dividing upon a Resolution which merely seeks to add to the burdens of the public exchequer at a time when, as everybody knows, its resources arc barely adequate to meet ordinary demands.
  MR. LINDSAYsaid, he regretted that the right hon. Gentleman had not gone a little more fully into the subject. However, in what he had said he (Mr. Lindsay) could not altogether agree with him, and more especially as he scorned to intimate that the difference between the cost of English and French lights was not so great as his noble Friend had stated. Now, if any confirmation of the figures of his noble Friend was wanted, he would beg to call the attention of the House to the statement of Captain Washington of the Admiralty— who was a competent authority on this subject. From an estimate of that gentleman it appeared that the annual cost of a

  1127
  shore light in the United States was £202, and of a light vessel, £656. The annual cost of maintaining the lights in France was £268,000; in England, £504,000, or nearly double. In his opinion the noble Lord had made out this part of his case. Some change was evidently called for, when the French were able to maintain superior lights to ours at half the cost. The right hon. Gentleman who last spoke would make it appear that there was almost no balance in hand from the surplus of light dues. By the last account in 1856 there appeared to be a balance of £165,137. [Mr. HENLEY: No balance for the erection of new lighthouses.] He was informed that the balance had now reached nearly £400,000, and the right hon. Gentleman could not deny that that sum was property belonging to the shipowners, for it had been collected by means of a tax levied on the shipping interest, and it ought to be applied to the purpose of lighting the coast and building new lighthouses. But £400,000 would go a long way, and if these lights could be maintained for £180,000 per annum — and he believed they could be efficiently maintained for much less — then it would gratify the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be told that, in case of their maintenance being transferred to the Consolidated Fund, the House of Commons needed not to be applied to for a vote of money on their account for two years at least. Why, he asked, should a much greater tax be levied on shipping than was really necessary for the maintenance of the lights? He might be told that a great sum had been levied for the purpose of purchasing the private lighthouses, amounting to nearly £1,200,000; but if reference were made to the report of the Committee on Lighthouses, of which the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton was a member, it would be found distinctly laid down that all expenditure necessary for the erection and maintenance of lighthouses, buoys, &c., should henceforth be defrayed out of the public revenue; and that if the Trinity House had incurred a debt in purchasing lights from private individuals, the Government ought to take that debt off their hands. The great question before the House was, whether these lights should continue to be levied on the shipping interest of the country, or be paid for out of the Consolidated Fund. Formerly the shipping interest was, unfortunately, in the position of being what was called a "protect-
  1128
  ed" body. It was therefore supposed to obtain some peculiar advantages—which, indeed, protection never gave them—and consequently every Government when they desired to raise revenue, fastened themselves on the shipping interest. Happily, the shipping interest was now relieved from protection, and the consequences of protection should also be swept away. The House could not deny, that to extract from the shipping interest the large amount of £1,200,000 for the purchase of private lighthouses, and the extinction of rights which never should have been granted by former monarchs or by votes of that House, was a gross injustice. The shipping interest of the country had been, however, subjected to that injustice, and he now asked that they might be relieved from the burden. It was impossible to give them back that which had been taken from them, but a tardy act of justice might be done by relieving them from the duty of maintaining lights which ought to be supported by the nation at large. If hon. Members looked to the able report of the Committee of 1845, they would find it clearly laid down by the whole of the witnesses, and agreed to by the majority of the Committee, that it was the duty of the nation to light its own shores and warn strangers of danger. It was not merely the shipowners who derived benefit from the lights, but also the merchants and the consumers, and therefore, even if the House agreed that the necessary amount should be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, instead of laying a tax upon the people, it would diminish the tax now really paid, for it was paid in a most expensive manner—namely, by several hands, one after the other. In justice not only to ourselves, but to the mercantile navy of foreign nations these heavy duties ought to be abolished. The United States of America had remonstrated very strongly for many years against this tax, and with great force, for while they never charged for their lights the English had for a long time taxed their ships for lights. Finance, too, levied no dues in return for the excellent lights, and even Russia and Prussia made no charge. It was a narrow view of the question, to say that by placing those charges on the Consolidated Fund they would be granting relief to foreigners. How stood the case as regarded America? America had taken the lead of all other nations in the matter of lights. In 1792 she had but 10 lighthouses; in 1848 she

  1129
  had 270 lighthouses, 30 floating lights, and 100 buoys; in 1850 she had 300 lighthouses; and in 1855 the number was increased to 500 lighthouses, irrespective of floating lights. Yet, with this liberal provision along her coasts, she made no charge for lights. Suppose America made a similar description of charge on our ships as we made upon hers, what an outcry would be raised. An American steam-packet entering the Mersey paid £62 for light dues; and if the Americans had made the same proportionate charge for lights to the Cunard Company that we had made to the Collins Company, that company would have had to pay in 1850 £3,224, from the whole of which that company had been relieved. It was natural that America should deeply feel this injustice, and it was unwise policy that such a feeling on the part of a friendly Power should continue to exist. Again, he could state, that in the year 1849 one firm, having ten ships trading between Liverpool and New York, paid in the shape of light dues a sum of £2,498; and he also knew that two American ships, the Franklin and Washington, had paid £800 per annum for lights, because they touched at Southampton for the mail bags. The House would, perhaps, be surprised to hear that during the ten years from 1840 to 1850 the Americans paid for lights in this country no less than £234,000. If the same tax were continued between 1850 and 1860 they would pay at least £400,000. Yet the burden borne by foreign shipowners was but small in proportion to that thrown on the shipping of this country, for out of the whole sum our own shipping paid 86½ per cent of the tax. The impost fell with peculiar severity upon the coasting trade. Take, for instance, the case of a vessel of 450 tons, running between St. John's and this country, and earning a freight of £1,000. Such a vessel would have to pay £10 per annum, or 1 per cent on her earnings, for light dues; but if the same vessel were to be employed in the coasting trade, she would have to pay £42, a sum equivalent to 4 per cent upon the gross amount of their freights. Upon the north-east coast of England this was often more than they were earning. The shipping interest did not require to be protected from foreign competition. It spurned such protection; but what it asked was, that it should be relieved from burdens which had been unjustly imposed upon it in the days of pro-
  1130
  tection, He was willing to admit that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Board of Trade greatly desired to see the shipping interest relieved from all unjust charges, but he did not see what was to be gained by a Royal Commission. It was something better than a Select Committee, but the House already had all the information necessary; and the question whether lighthouses should be paid for by the shipping or out of the Consolidated Fund was a question for the whole House to decide. He did not see the necessity of a Royal Commission to go about the country and examine the lights. The question was now ripe for settlement, and his fear was, that if a Royal Commission were appointed, the House would only get the same evidence that was already before it.
  MR. LOWEsaid, he believed that if the House would favour him with its attention for a few moments, he should be able to throw a little light on the intricate question before it. The noble Lord had been at great pains to show, and in his opinion had actually shown, that the management of these lights was needlessly expensive. The noble Lord had gone farther, and had shown the cause of that expenditure. He (Mr. Lowe) believed that the expense was mainly owing to the double government of the Board of Trade and the Trinity House. He did not think that any blame was due to the right hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Cardwell) who was the author of that double government, because it was a great thing to place the control in a single office, and to make that office responsible to Parliament. That right hon. Gentleman was not, therefore, to be blamed if the institution of the double government which he set up had not worked altogether satisfactorily. Nor did he attribute blame either to the Trinity House or the Board of Trade. They were both anxious to curtail the expenses, but there was a divided responsibility. One department proposed the expenditure, and another had to ratify it, and neither exercised the same control and responsibility as if the duties wore discharged by a single hand. He did not believe it was in the power of the President of the Board of Trade to reduce the expense of lighthouses, however large it might be, as long as the double government remained. But what was the proposal of the noble Lord? It was not to abolish or to remodel this double government, and form a single government, which should take the management of the light-

  1131
  houses, and endeavour to reduce the expenses, but he left the imperfect machinery as it stood, and wished to transfer the light dues from the shipping to the Consolidated Fund. Now, in what position would the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Board of Trade find himself if the noble Lord's Motion were agreed to? He might have to place an estimate before the House which the noble Lord might have no difficulty in proving to be too large, but which the right hon. Gentleman would be unable to control or reduce, owing to the constitution of his department. If the light dues were to be thrown upon the Consolidated Fund, the first step should be to give the Minister, whose duty it would be to propose the estimate, the means of reducing it to the lowest point consistent with efficiency. That power he did not now possess, for at present he had to control the Dublin Board, the Board of Scottish Northern Lights, and the Trinity Board, and that expenditure could not be controlled as if it were under a single hand. He felt himself compelled to object to the Motion of the noble Lord; but if Parliament did away with the double government and substituted a single department, it would be a fair subject of consideration whether the burden ought to be thrown upon the Consolidated Fund or not. It might be that by defraying the cost of lighthouses out of the Consolidated Fund, something would be saved in expense and something in vexation. So long as the system of divided responsibility and of double government continued he was satisfied—without imputing blame to the Board of Trade or the Trinity House—that a reduction of expenditure could not be effected. He could not vote for a proposal which would place the President of the Board of Trade, or any Minister, in the position of submitting estimates to the House, without having the power of controlling the expenditure to which they referred.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid that the debate had advanced so far that they might be quite certain one desirable result would be attained—that, in some mode or other, there would be a full and impartial inquiry into the efficiency of the present system, and as to whether the present charges were excessive. His right hon. Friend had proposed the appointment of a Royal Commission on this subject. In 1853, when the question was brought under the consideration of the House by the Govern-
  1132
  ment of the Earl of Aberdeen, they found it a matter of no small difficulty to deal with the subject, in consequence of the existence of charters of the most remote antiquity, many of them having been subsequently ratified by statute. One corporation—the most ancient, he believed, and not the least eminent among those whose interests were affected—met the demands of the Government and of Parliament in the most frank and liberal spirit. That corporation, having possessed the power of levying large sums beyond the requisite expenditure, and not only having the power, but being directed by the terms of their charter to employ it in a manner which gave them extensive and valuable patronage, finding it was the opinion of the House of Commons that a power so exercised at the expense of the shipping interest should no longer be continued, consented voluntarily to an arrangement which was ratified by Parliament, and which compelled them to submit every shilling of their expenditure to the sanction of a Minister who was responsible to that House. This arrangement subjected their accounts to the examination of the public auditors, and enabled Parliament, at any moment, to step in, and, by questioning the Minister who was responsible, or by directing inquiry, to ascertain whether a single shilling had been expended beyond what was absolutely necessary. The other corporations, however, had refused to follow that admirable example; and the consequence was, that at the period to which he referred, a Royal Commission was issued, to inquire into them. That Commission, with great labour, extended its investigations to every part of the three kingdoms, and they recommended extensive and important changes, which had never been carried into effect. The able speech of the noble Lord (Lord C. Paget) had produced so great an effect upon the House, that it was necessary to have an inquiry now, whether the House accurately understood the real facts of the case. He was sure the noble Lord had left the House under an impression that the heavy debt to which he had referred—£1,200,000 —was incurred in spite of the recommendations of Mr. Hume, and that the burden continued to this day to oppress the shipping interest; whereas, the fact was, that this debt, whether right or wrong—and he (Mr. Cardwell) was not at all disposed to defend the transaction—owed its origin to the first Committee, of which Mr. Hume

  1133
  was the Chairman, that it was now wholly extinguished, and not a farthing was now collected, or would be collected, from the shipping interest, for its liquidation. His hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Lindsay) had told them, from the Report of 1845, what was the comparative cost of maintaining the lights in Franco and in England. That was the expenditure before the system was reformed, and the figures quoted were, doubtless, correct; but the hon. Gentleman seemed to have overlooked the information afforded to the House by the noble Lord, as to the present cost of French lighthouses, and to have forgotten also that his right hon. Friend opposite had told them what was the present expense of maintaining English lighthouses. He (Mr. Cardwell) believed the expense of English lighthouses was somewhat below the expense of French lighthouses. [Mr. LINDSAY was understood to say that the cost was about the same.] The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lindsay) had, however, quoted figures from the Report, which might lead the House to suppose that the expense of the lighthouse at Dungeness far exceeded that at Cape Grisnez. He (Mr. Cardwell) believed the House was also under the impression that the Committees of 1834 and 1845 found great fault with the English system, on the ground of its inefficiency, and expressed an opinion that a new system should be adopted. If, however, hon. Members referred to the Reports, they would find that the Committee stated, in the most plain and emphatic language, in their Resolutions, that the system was as efficient as it could be. Was it not to be expected that a system would be efficient which was placed under the management of Mr. Faraday, and for which that name was responsible to the British public? Comparisons had been drawn between the system of lighthouses in England and in America. Upon this point, he would remind the House that, shortly before the Bill of 1853 was passed, the American Government, dissatisfied with the condition of the lighthouses in the United States, sent a Commission to Europe, to investigate the system on which lighthouses were maintained, and that Commission reported in the highest terms upon the management of lights in England, and recommended that the system of the Trinity House should be adopted in the United Status. The noble Lord proposed to carry into effect the recommendations of
  1134
  the Committee of 1845, and, undoubtedly, the Committee, not unanimously, but by a majority, he believed, of six to four, arrived at the conclusion embodied in the noble Lord's Resolution; but that Committee also made the following recommendation:—
  "Your Committee, therefore, after mature consideration of all the circumstances relative to and connected with the present state of the several establishments for arranging the lights, &c, in the three kingdoms, are of opinion that all public and general lighthouses and floating lights, buoys, and beacons in the United Kingdom should be placed under the management of one Board, resident in London, and that that central Board in London should be the Trinity Board of Deptford Strond."
  That was the recommendation of the Committee presided over by Mr. Hume. His right hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Lowe) had compared the bodies which possessed control over lighthouses to a double government, and he (Mr. Cardwell) was anxious to call attention to this part of the case, because without having any desire to maintain the existing system, he thought it was important the House should understand what a single government for the management of lighthouses meant. It meant that the expenditure of a very large sum of money, the patronage which was involved, and the settlement of the tangled local questions which might arise, should at once be transferred to the Board of Trade. There was at present, however, no double government in reality, but the whole responsibility of managing the lights was left in England, Scotland, and Ireland to throe distinct bodies, so that each country had its own special officers presiding over the service. The noble Lord had admitted that if he were a Scotch or Irish gentleman he would strongly object to transfer these powers into the hands of an English body resident in London. There was, however, a common fund and a uniform control. There was no divided responsibility, but for every shilling of money which was improperly expended the President of the Board of Trade was responsible to that House. He did not say that at some future period it might not be expedient to confer these great powers upon a department of the Government; but he maintained that the proposal to increase to such an extent the responsibility, the power, and the patronage of the Executive Government was a matter that requited the most serious and careful consideration, and ought not to be

  1135
  decided upon in an off-hand manner, and lay an unexpected Resolution, before the House was fully acquainted with all the circumstances of the case. Then, with regard to the question of money, he was not at all surprised that in the present state of the finances his right hon. Friend opposite should be disinclined to throw any additional charge upon the Consolidated Fund. The right hon. Gentleman near him (Mr. Lowe) seemed to think that if the charge were placed upon the Consolidated Fund the expenditure would he managed more economically, but he (Mr. Cardwell) believed that if they wished expenditure to grow they could find no surer means of accomplishing that object than by transferring it from local control to the Consolidated Fund. That was a question well worthy the attention of those persons, whether members of a Royal Commission or of a Committee, who were going to investigate this subject. There would be no end—he knew it from experience—to the applications which would be made for building new lighthouses of all kinds. Every shipwreck which took place would involve a claim, and would be laid at the door of the Board of Trade. A Committee was now sitting upstairs on harbours of refuge. No veil was so impenetrable as that which shrouded the deliberations of a Committee of this House until they had made their report. He wished that veil could be penetrated, so that the House might form a conjecture as to what part of the coast of this country had not asked for its £.5,000,000 of money; and when the general public paid all these charges, while the shipping interest enjoyed all the advantages derivable from them, would there exist the same security as was afforded now that only reasonable demands should be made for establishing lights on the coast of England? For all these reasons—having had the honour of submitting the great reform of the Trinity House which had now been five years in operation —believing that when a change of such a kind had been made it was only just that its result should be investigated and made known—and believing it to be necessary also that the House should be informed of many most important consequences before it placed this charge upon the Consolidated Fund, before it gave to any Government the patronage of every light which now existed or was hereafter to exist, and before it threw upon them the responsibility of all the local controversies and disputes
  1136
  which would be sure to arise, he should support the proposal for inquiry by a Royal Commission, in preference to having this charge at once placed upon the Consolidated Fund by means of an Address.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, he entirely agreed with his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, that that could not be regarded as a party question. For his part, he did not wish to prefer charges against any people in that case, but he was anxious to see a remedy provided for the abuses and the absurdity of the existing system; and he thought that no hon. Member would deny the existence of gross abuses, or that anything could be more monstrous that the complication of our system of signals and the system of buoys. His noble Friend who had brought forward a Motion recommended that certain duties in connection with the maintenance of lighthouses should be performed by the Royal Navy; but appeared to him (Mr. Bentinck) that it would not be desirable to impose on our officers a task which they would probably find very irksome, and which they certainly would have no special motive for discharging carefully and zealously. He differed upon one point from his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. His right hon. Friend bad said that great inconvenience would arise from changing the buoys in the Thames, but he (Mr. Bentinck) believed that that inconvenience would be far more than counterbalanced by the great advantages of which such a measure would be productive. He concurred most cordially with the noble Lord in his attempt to induce the House to consider the whole subject; but, at the same time, he did not think his noble Friend could fairly call upon the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to undertake the cost of all this additional expenditure without their having had more accurate and detailed information on the matter. He therefore hoped his noble Friend would be induced to adopt the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, and accede to the proposal for a Commission to inquire into the subject.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that the House was much obliged to his noble Friend for the ability and clearness with which he had brought before it a subject of great national importance. In many respects he concurred in the view which had been taken by his noble Friend. He

  1137
  was a Member of the Committee which sat in 1845, and was truly an assenting party to the recommendations which that Committee made to the House. At the same time, he thought the observations of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down worthy of the attention of his noble Friend. Since that Committee sat, great changes have been made in the constitution and arrangements of the Trinity House, and therefore it could not be said that that Report, and the Report of the previous Committee, contained all the information necessary to enable the Government and the House to determine what course they should pursue upon this important matter. He should, therefore, strongly recommend his noble Friend to accept the proposal which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, that a Royal Commission should be issued to inquire into this subject. Notwithstanding the improvements which had been made at the Trinity House, he was led to believe that other changes might be made in the arrangement of that Department which would lead to a considerable saving; and, he must confess that he was one of those who thought that, in the abstract, there was a good deal of plausibility in the argument that the expense of these lights ought to be borne by the public, instead of by the shipping interest. The lighting of our coast was undoubtedly a duty which belonged rather to the nation than to individuals. Take for analogy, on a small scale, the lighting of the streets; we did not call upon the persons who traversed the streets of this great town to pay for their lighting. That expense was defrayed by the parishes, who stood in the same relation to the lighting of our streets as the nation occupied to that of the coasts. Upon that analogy he thought that the nation ought to pay the expense of lighting the coast. On the other hand, until the Department, which was responsible to Parliament, was invested with full power of controlling the expenditure and enforcing those arrangements which were best adapted to secure the efficiency of the service and its economical performance, it must be premature to make the transfer from the shipping to the Consolidated Fund. There were matters of detail with regard to which further inquiry appeared to be requisite, and he should therefore strongly recommend his noble Friend, in the interest of the matter which he had taken in hand, to accept the proposal of the right hon.
  1138
  Gentleman opposite, to withdraw his Motion, and to leave it to the Government to appoint a Royal Commission to investigate the whole matter and report thereupon.
  MR. WHITEsaid, he thought the House ought to be consistent with itself, and he by no means shared in the apprehensions expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford seemed to think that it would be a great public calamity to place some £200,000 of patronage in the hands of the Executive; but he (Mr. White) would ask how long ago was it since the House arrived at the conclusion that it would be a benefit to have the vast patronage connected with the Indian Administration given to the Executive? Again, no later than in the last Parliament it was deemed expedient to adopt the recommendation of the noble Lord the Member for Sandwich, and pay £1,250,000 to the King of Denmark in order to extinguish the Sound Dues; but the Light Dues on our own coast were of a far more objectionable character, and surely if it was expedient to abolish the Sound Dues, it was no less expedient to do away with our own Light Dues and throw the charge of maintaining the lighthouses upon the Consolidated Fund. With respect to the state of the finances, which some persons viewed with some degree of alarm, he thought that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer was compelled to continue the imposition of the income tax, he would in a great degree do away with the unpopularity of that proceeding, or of raising money in any other unpalatable way, if he would consent to remove so objectionable an impost as this was felt to be. Let it be also remembered that by making the transfer proposed they would be benefiting the consumer, and carrying out the principle of direct taxation, in favour of which the House pronounced years ago. In conclusion, these dues were very severely felt by the coasting shipping, especially by that connected with the port of Plymouth, and, as a Member for that town, he tendered his warmest thanks to the noble Lord (Lord C. Paget) for the admirable manner in which he had brought this subject before the House.
  MR. A. SMITHobserved that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford (Mr. Cardwell) was mistaken in supposing that the United States Commissioners had reported in favour of the English system

  1139
  of lighting. On the contrary, in their Report, they gave a decided preference to the system pursued in France, and adverted to the extreme economy of that system compared with the one which was pursued here. They stated that the average cost of the lights in this country was £500, while the magnificent French light at Grisnez cost only £300, and they further reported that proceeding on the French system the total cost of the whole of the lighthouses in the United States, which were very numerous, far exceeding ours, would be but £84,000 a year. The greater cheapness of labour and materials had been alleged as a reason for the moderate cost of the French lights, but as that argument could not apply to America it must fall to the ground. The United States Commissioners stated that the expense of the lighthouses in France in 1825 was actually less than the cost of collecting the dues in this country; and they described the machinery of the Trinity House as not only objectionable in principle, but exceedingly expensive. In fact, so many contrary statements had been made upon the subject, that he hardly knew what the real state of the facts was. For instance, it had been said that the cost of lighthouses in this country was only £27,000 a year, and of light ships £37,800; but when he turned to the last accounts published by the Board of Trade, he found that the expenditure for lighthouses alone was nearly £148,000, and the receipts £252,000 a year, which left a balance of £104,000 wholly unaccounted for. It was a great misfortune that the accounts laid on the table for their information as to the actual expenditure of the Trinity House were not as complete as they ought to be. Previous to the passing of the Mercantile Marino Act the Trinity House only gave the amount of the receipt from Light Dues, and the expenditure upon lighthouses; but they were not bound to account for the residue, which was between £60,000 and £70,000 a year. Doubtless a large part of that balance was required for the salaries and expenses of that establishment itself. The Elder Brethren, it appeared from the blue book, had £7,000 a year, the establishment on Tower Hill cost £80,000, and the steamers in connection with the Trinity Board and the lighthouses cost a large sum. He concurred with the right hon. Gentleman opposite that this matter ought not immediately to be placed in the hands
  1140
  of the Government; but he wished to see the Trinity Board establishment remodelled and that body made effective for the purposes for which it was intended. Its constitution was very defective, many of the Brethren being self-elective, while in his opinion the Elder Brethren ought to be selected from different ports in the kingdom by the mercantile marine body in conjunction with the shipowners. The establishment of such a Board as that would be satisfactory to the great shipping interest, which through its instrumentality might be placed in that position in the body politic to which it was fairly entitled. If thoroughly remodelled, its various functions, together with the examination of masters and mates, and other duties beneficial to the mercantile marine of this country, might be exercised by it with great public i advantage. The Trinity House had obstinately resisted improvement, never yielding except to the strong pressure of Parliamentary inquiry. For a long period they persisted in the use of sperm oil, on the plea that it encouraged the whale fishery; and it was not until the Committee of 1845 had sat that they were at last induced to substitute colza oil in its place. The Trinity House must be subjected to a thorough and searching investigation before it could be put upon a. proper footing. He should offer, therefore, no objection to the appointment of a Commission, because he thought that its investigation would eventually lead to useful results.
  MR. PHILIPPSsaid, he did not see that because we spent £1,250,000 to abolish the Sound Dues, it followed that we were now called upon to place the charge of lighting our coasts upon the Consolidated Fund. He thought that if the argument of the hon. Member for Ply- mouth (Mr. White) that the cost of maintaining lighthouses ought to be defrayed by the Consolidated Fund, because the charge ultimately fell upon the consumer, was allowed to prevail, it would be impossible to stop there. The railway interest might with equal plausibility urge that the expenses for watching, taxation, and local rates ought to be thrown upon the national Exchequer, because they also ultimately fell upon the consumer and the travelling public. He trembled for the Consolidated Fund. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer had warned them that the danger to which it was exposed at the present day did not arise from personal corruption,

  1141
  but from the advocacy of the pet schemes of benevolent individuals, each of whom sought to throw a new charge upon the country, for what he no doubt conceived to be the good of the public. If such a practice were not sternly discouraged, it was to be feared that this fund would cease to deserve the epithet "consolidated," and that, as Hamlet wished might be the case with his own flesh, it would "melt, thaw, and dissolve itself into a dew." Inasmuch, however, as the greater portion of the speech of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, had reference principally to the improvements which might be made in the Trinity Board, he did not wish to offer any objection to the suggestions which he had made.
  MR. COWANcomplained that it was too often the case that when the sheriffs and other authorities on the coast of Scotland submitted good plans to the Trinity Board for the improvement of the northern lighthouses, they were set aside, whether by secret influence or not he could not say. He thought that with reference to the difference in the cost of establishing and maintaining lighthouses on the coast of France and England it arose from the rocky character of our shores, and the impossibility of getting at many of our lights except during a short period of the year, for the purpose of repairing them. Many of them on the coast of Scotland were situated in places access to which was extremely difficult. As the noble Lord had attained his object by bringing the matter under the consideration of the Government, he recommended him to leave it to be dealt with by them on their own responsibility, and to withdraw the Motion which he had made.
  MR. J. EWARTremarked that he could not concur with the noble Lord the Member for Sandwich in deeming it expedient that the whole of the proposed expenditure should be thrown upon the Consolidated Fund. It was, however, he thought, a question well worthy of the consideration of the Government whether it would not be desirable to free the coasting trade from the operation of those dues which pressed so heavily upon it, and which amounted to a sum of only £G0,000 per annum.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGSTsaid, that, after the assurance which he had received from the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, that the Government would be prepared to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the im-
  1142
  portant subject which he had that evening brought under its notice, and after the opinion which had been so generally expressed by hon. Members that such a course would be likely to lead to a satisfactory result, he should, with the permission of the House, withdraw his Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

TRIBUNALS OF COMMERCE.

  COMMITTEE MOVED FOR
  MR. AYRTON MR. AYRTON, in rising to move for a Select Committee "to inquire respecting the expediency of establishing Tribunals of Commerce," stated that he had, in deference to a suggestion which had been made to him upon the part of the Government, consented to enlarge the terms of the Motion by the addition of the words "or otherwise improving the administration of Justice in causes relating to commercial disputes." The subject of the Motion was one he might observe which had been pressed upon his attention by a body of gentlemen occupying most respectable positions in the city of London, who had, to the number of 1500, signed a petition in reference to it, and had requested him to bring it under the notice of the House of Commons. Those gentlemen, in the petition to which he had alluded, stated that they considered the present mode of administering justice in commercial cases to be extremely unsatisfactory, both as respects the manner in which it was administered and the delay which it entailed. They, moreover, drew attention to the fact that in foreign countries justice in such cases was administered through the medium of courts which were called 'Tribunals of Commerce," and prayed that the House of Commons might take into its consideration the question whether a system which was found to work satisfactory in foreign countries might not with advantage be extended to our own. He was not desirous of pledging the House to adopt the views of the petitioners, nor, indeed, could he do so himself. His object in making this Motion was to induce the House to consider whether their complaints were well-founded, and, if so, how they could be redressed. It was true these gentlemen did not furnish any details showing how the administration of justice was defective or unsatisfactory; nor did they point to any remedy which they wished to see adopted; but it should be remembered that they were in the

  1143
  position of a person suffering from some disease, the nature of which it required technical science to discover, and consequently he could not help thinking that it constituted no valid objection to the consideration of their complaints that they were not enabled to point out in a specific shape the evils for which they sought a remedy. They felt they were labouring under a grievance; they perceived that the objects which they desired to attain when they entered upon the prosecution of a suit in a court of justice were not satisfactorily accomplished; but they were willing to leave it to professional men to explain the causes which led to so unsatisfactory a result, and if possible to devise some means by which the inconveniences of the present system might be obviated. Those inconveniences might have their origin in the proceedings to be taken at the very commencement of a suit, whereby the real point at issue might be so involved in unnecessary technicalities as to lead to considerable difficulty in its determination when it came on for decision before the tribunal to which it had ultimately to be submitted. A considerable improvement in that respect had, indeed, recently been introduced into our system of procedure, and a man might now in a comparatively short time—about twenty days in a simple case—arrive at the stage when his suit was ripe for adjudication. But it was sometimes an object of the utmost importance to merchants that their grievances should be disposed of in as many hours as it now took days to investigate them, and in accordance with the system of the "Tribunals of Commerce" twenty-four hours constituted the limit within which parties interested in a suit were compelled to appear, in order that a preliminary inquiry might take place respecting the nature of the case, in order that any emergent question might be brought under the notice of the Court. Under the existing system, when a controversy had arrived at the point when a judicial decision could be taken, it frequently happened that such decision could not be obtained for five or six months, owing to the length of time which elapsed between the visits of the Judges to provincial towns, and even when it came to a hearing it might not be finally decided. In the metropolis the inhabitants could not complain of this delay to the same degree; yet in important commercial cases, even in London, if a special jury was required, before it could be summoned, they might have to wait three months.
  1144
  Even when a tribunal was attained, objections might be raised to the manner in which suits were tried. When a cause came before a Judge and jury the Judge took upon himself to determine many of the questions which arose and left only part of them to the jury. One of the questions which Judges took on themselves to decide was the effect of written commercial instruments. Now a Judge might be a very good interpreter of a legal instrument, but it was very different when he came to deal with those instruments, often obscure and ungrammatical, which were in use among mercantile men, who might read them in a sense different from their strict grammatical construction; and although, in cases where technical terms were used, juries were required to interpret such terms, it was said the Judge trenched too much on the province of the jury. He did not say whether this system was right or wrong, but it involved a serious question, whether the administration of justice in commercial cases could not be improved. Then, again, the delays which occurred greatly increased the cost of litigation; and, moreover, when a decision was pronounced it was not certain that it would be final. In consequence of these evils there was a tendency on the part of persons engaged in commerce in various parts of the country to send their causes for trial in London. Such a system might be agreeable to the legal profession and convenient to the Judges, but it could not be otherwise than unsatisfactory to suitors, whose costs were increased, and to the jurymen of London, whose duties were enhanced by this practice. To such an extent had the tendency to transfer the commercial controversies of the country to the metropolitan courts advanced that he found in one year no less than 1,248 causes were tried in London, while those tried elsewhere throughout the kingdom only amounted to about 1,100. That was not the natural proportion of litigation in London to that of the country, as was shown by the returns of the business in the local courts, for out of a total of 297,000 causes only 55,000 were tried within the metropolitan area, and of 4,000 causes for sums between £20 and £50 only 400 were tried within the metropolitan district. This undue infliction of business upon London jurymen was a real grievance, and tended to bring the institution of a jury itself into disrepute amongst them. Moreover, he was informed that the merchants in the city

  1145
  were so harassed with the duties they had to perform in this respect that they actually preferred to pay £40 or £50 a year in fines rather than serve upon juries. That was not a proper state of things, and, therefore, the inhabitants of London had a great interest in seeing that justice should he properly administered throughout the country, so that the jurymen of the metropolis should not he called upon to try causes which belonged to other districts. It was needless to remark that suitors also must suffer from the present practice. Indeed it was very distinctly shown in the Report of the Common Law Commission, that the trial of a cause before a distant tribunal was more expensive than a decision obtained upon the spot. The proportionate expense was stated in the Report of the Common Law Commissioners as follows, £30 for a trial when the cause of action arose at an Assize Town, £67 when it arose at a distance of thirty miles, and £87 when at a distance of 200 miles. Another of the evils to which merchants were particularly subject was, that when their causes came to what they hoped would be an ultimate trial it was found so difficult to dispose of them by means of an ordinary sitting of a court and jury, that they were told that they could not be satisfactorily decided, and that it would be better to take them to arbitration; a course which was in fact compulsory upon them, and the expense had thus to be incurred over again, the arbitration was only the beginning of a new suit. Why should they not be remitted to arbitration at the outset? Mr. Rowcliffe, a member of the distinguished firm of Gregory & Co. solicitors,, said in his examination before the Commission on this subject—
  "My firm belief is that merchants frequently give up disputed accounts when they would have a fair hope of recovering. They abandon their claims in preference to being subjected to the annoyance, expense, and loss of time occasioned by travelling long distances to courts of law and waiting there until their cases come on for trial, with very little prospect of anything but a reference to arbitration."
  An HON. MEMBER moved that the House be counted. It having been ascertained that forty Members were present,
  MR. AYRTONresumed by acknowledging the dulness of the question. It was one, nevertheless, on which he thought he was justified in offering a few explanatory observations to explain the object for
  1146
  which the Committee was to be appointed. Many hon. Gentlemen had asked him what he meant by a Tribunal of Commerce. It was nothing more than a body selected by the Crown in France, consisting of a Judge, who was generally of the legal profession, and the chief merchants of the district — who very much resembled our special jurymen. To them was given the power of dealing with all cases arising out of commercial transactions. Where the inhabitants of a district were very few, the same power was given to the ordinary local Judge, who very much resembled a County Court Judge. The proceedings were very summary. The Court decided a case upon what they understood to be its broad merits. If the claim exceeded £60 an appeal might be made to the superior courts of the country. He did not say that that system could be introduced with all its forms into this kingdom, but he thought that an approach to something of the kind would be an improvement on the present system. There was one place in England — namely, Liverpool, which enjoyed the privilege of a local tribunal of unlimited jurisdiction over cases that might arise within that town. Liverpool had a local Judge who sat four times in the year (more frequent sittings would probably be an improvement), and the merchant of that town had, therefore, four opportunities in the year of bringing his claim before a court, whereas if he commenced a suit in one of the superior courts the trial might not be heard until the expiration of seven months. Why should not the merchant of every other commercial town have the same advantage, instead of having to wait for the time he had mentioned, or being forced to come to London, if he desired a speedier trial. It was of the utmost importance that this question should be settled without further delay, because if a general system of improved local tribunals were not now established they would have individual towns applying for the establishment of special courts under local Acts. When these had become too diversified, some one would propose a grand reform to sweep them all away, and introduce a uniform system, then compensation would have to be given to every one connected with them. He wished to see a general law passed at once, under which the Crown might have the power by charter to establish local tribunals in any place to meet the conve-

  1147
  nienee of the commercial community. He would, therefore, conclude by moving—
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire respecting the expediency of establishing Tribunals of Commerce, or of otherwise improving the administration of justice in causes relating to commercial disputes."
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he had listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. and learned Member, not only on account of the importance of the subject in itself, but also on account of the nature of the proposition he made, with the view of remedying what he considered was a great want in our system of jurisprudence. He was anxious to hear from one so competent to inform the House what were the precise grounds on which he thought inquiry was necessary, and the benefit which the commercial community would derive from tribunals of commerce. Although he should not oppose the Motion, he was anxious to state the grounds upon which he should give his assent to the proposition for an inquiry, and at the same time to state the view which he took of the matter. The hon. and learned Gentleman stated that he had presented a petition from a number of persons—no doubt competent to judge of the subject—in London, praying the House to take into their consideration the subjects of Tribunals of Commerce. He admitted that the name in itself was very attractive, and that men engaged in commercial affairs were naturally anxious to see a cheap, easy, and effectual mode of settling their disputes. He could very well understand that they might suppose that a great benefit would accrue to them from the establishment of such institutions. Hon. Members must not, however, be led astray by names—they must consider the amount of the evil complained of, and how those tribunals were to remedy it. The hon. and learned Gentleman stated distinctly and forcibly what he conceived to be the evils of the present system—that cases were constantly occurring in which a speedy decision was the very essence of the case—namely, cases in which perishable property was involved, or in which ships about to sail were in question. Delays in such cases were no doubt very serious, and led, sometimes, to irremediable mischief. Now, in reference to the evil of delay in regard to those proceedings, he would beg to remind the House of one or two facts. There was established in this country, during late years, a very important and most successful improvement in our courts of justice. He alluded to
  1148
  the County Courts, which were scattered throughout the kingdom, and to which Parliament had given a very extensive jurisdiction. The success of those Courts no man could for a moment doubt. They afforded a speedy and cheap mode of settling disputes involving sums up to a considerable amount. In addition to these Courts, they had lately modified their proceedings at common law, first under a Royal Commission, and afterwards by means of discussions in that House. By these means the proceedings in the Court3 of Common Law were vastly improved, and had been rendered as speedy as was deemed consistent with the interests of the parties concerned. In addition to this, they had within the last two or three years passed an Act on the subject of bills of exchange, whereby a system of more speedy execution was established in reference to those documents than existed in regard to other subjects of commerce. He well recollected the debates on that measure, and the anxiety that was then evinced to reduce procedure on bills of exchange to the shortest time possible. The consequence, however, was this, that notwithstanding the great desire expressed on this point by the House, they were unable to reduce the proceedings, even in an unopposed action or a bill of exchange, to a shorter time than three or four weeks. In these three different classes of measures the object of the Legislature had been to remedy the evils that sprung from delay in the settlement of disputed cases; and if his hon. and learned Friend was able to show that these proceedings could be still further shortened, he, for one, would be glad to lend his assistance in carrying out so desirable an improvement, and he was sure the House would be prepared to give it their sanction. But when his hon. and learned Friend spoke of cases that required the consideration of a special jury being brought into court and fully stated and disposed of within twenty-four hours, he was afraid he was more sanguine than experience would justify him in being. He feared that his hon. and learned Friend would be disappointed if he ever expected to establish such a state of things as that. He must remember that the Court he proposed to establish must be either a tribunal from which there was an appeal, or a thoroughly independent Court from which there was no appeal. Now, as to a Court of the latter character, he ventured to say that if it were to dispose of cases within the space

  1149
  of twenty-four hours, it would not enjoy the confidence of the country, to say nothing of those persons whose interests were involved in its decisions. On the other hand, if it were to he a Court from which there was an appeal, his hon. and learned Friend must be aware that its decision would be suspended while the appeal was being determined. The case would be taken before one of the higher Courts; but if so, he was entitled to ask why they could not go to the higher Courts in the first instance? He would now take the other head, on which his hon. and learned Friend had impeached the present system in our Courts of Common Law. He said that the mode in which the mercantile cases were handled by the Judge and the Jury was most unsatisfactory; because questions of fact were left to the Jury, while the Judges were in the habit of putting their own construction on questions of law: and he added, that the Tribunals of Commerce in France decided questions both of fact and law. Of course, in the case of any commercial document that had a peculiar meaning, from the nature of the words employed, the evidence of witnesses would be taken, and upon that evidence the jury would be required to decide upon the peculiar meaning of the document. But did he mean to say that a document springing from the proceedings in a commercial transaction was to be adjudicated upon in a manner different from documents arising out of other matters, he ventured to say, that any innovation of that kind in our system of jurisprudence would be eminently unsatisfactory to the country—it would be so abnormal in itself, and so serious in its consequences, that he believed the House would never give its assent to such a proposition. The fact of Tribunals of Commerce adopting the course referred by his hon. and learned Friend only proved that those tribunals sprung out of a state of things loss civilized and less enlightened than we enjoyed in this country. They were the remnants, he would not say of barbarous ages, but of a less enlightened civilization than existed in this country; they were tribunals very far inferior to those we enjoyed, and in no respect more than in this, that the mercantile men who composed them, without stating the grounds on which they interpreted written documents, mixed up in their verdicts questions of law and facts together. His hon. and learned Friend had, however, made a complaint which he was ready to admit was perfectly just. He
  1150
  said it was a very unsatisfactory state o things in this country, that when suitors came into one court they were handed over to another—namely, from a court of equity to a court of law, or from a court of law to a court of equity. That was, no doubt, a serious blot in the jurisprudence of the country, which had been remedied to some extent already, but which required to be remedied to a greater extent still. Indeed, he would ask his hon. and learned Friend to give his support to a bill which he (the Solicitor General) meant to introduce that night, and which he hoped would go far to remedy one or two of the mischiefs to which his hon. and learned Friend had referred. His hon. and learned Friend then addressed himself to another head of complaint of a different kind, in respect of which he was at a loss to comprehend the remedy which Tribunals of Commerce would supply. He said the jurymen of the city of London had a very unfair amount of business thrown upon them, because it was the habit to send country cases to London to be tried. But how did this happen? In the first place, because the courts in London sat for a greater number of days in the year than the courts in the country did. In the next place, because they had courts sitting in Guildhall, presided over by the most eminent Judges, and because these courts were celebrated for the manner in which mercantile cases were decided. In the third place, because the mercantile men who were jurymen in London were eminent for their skill and intelligence which they brought to bear on mercantile subjects; and it was always the fate of those who were able to discharge their business well, to get more business than others, simply on account of their competency. Those were the evils of which his hon. and learned Friend complained. Let him now consider how the system of Tribunals of Commerce would remedy those evils. In reference to the question of speed in the decision of cases, it would be found, he thought, that they could not materially expedite business in regard to important cases in courts of common law, more than they had done already, without endangering the interests of the parties concerned. If they attempted to do so, it would be only by means of a greater number of circuits in the country, or by some extra means for the trial of these cases. He thought, however, that his hon. and learned Friend was mistaken, if he imagined it would be satisfactory to those who had

  1151
  causes, particularly commercial causes, to be tried, if they had an inferior kind of tribunal to that which they now possessed, for the numerous causes which were brought to London from the country showed the desire which prevailed amongst the commercial community upon the subject. But he wanted his hon. and learned friend to tell him what the proposed tribunals were to be? Were they to be paid tribunals, or were they not? If they were to be paid tribunals, then he asked his hon. and learned Friend whether he thought that Parliament would sanction the institution of a new staff of tribunals, at a very serious expense, throughout the length and breadth of the land—for they must be established wherever commerce was carried on, and there was no corner of the country in which it was not carried on. If they were not to be paid tribunals, what was the probability that gentlemen would be found to discharge the duties of the office with willingness, and to the satisfaction of the public? Again, he wished to know if they were to be courts with or without appeal. If they were to have an appeal, then that appeal must be to the common law courts already in existence? And in that case why not go to them in the first instance. On the other hand, if they were to be courts without appeal, it was clear that they would resolve themselves into nothing more or less than a system of compulsory arbitration. His hon. and learned Friend had referred to the discredit which formerly attached to our system of common law—that when a complicated case was brought before a jury, and it was found that the time occupied was such that the jury could not decide it, it was thereupon sent by the Judge for arbitration; and his hon. and learned Friend read the evidence which had been given before the Commission which sat two years ago, by an experienced solicitor, who spoke of the expense incurred in bringing a case of the kind before a jury, and the hardship of having it withdrawn and sent for arbitration. His hon. and learned Friend, however, had omitted to state that upon the report of that Commission, an Act of Parliament was founded which provided that if a cause were commenced in one of the superior courts, and either party chose to go before the Judge and satisfied him that the case was one of complicated account, or otherwise proper to be decided by reference, the Judge should have power to insist upon the parties incurring no further expense in pleading or evidence, but
  1152
  going at once before arbitrators. By that Bill, therefore, the very evil of which complaint was made, was attempted to be cured, and he believed, to a great extent, that it had been cured by that measure. He had taken the liberty of submitting these observations to the House, only in order that the House might not think that any great benefit was likely to be derived from the establishment of Tribunals of Commerce, or that it would be found upon investigation practicable to have Tribunals of Commerce in this country at all analogous to those which prevailed in foreign countries. In countries where Tribunals of Commerce existed, they had been found from the earliest times, never having been superseded by more formal and regular courts; and if we were now to adopt them he believed that in place of advancing, we should be retrograding, and that it would be found if those tribunals were established upon the system prevailing abroad, they would not be satisfactory to the country. At the same time he would admit that the subject had been largely ventilated in commercial circles, and had obtained a certain amount of favour in the minds of those who felt, as he himself did, that all litigation was an evil, and who gladly and readily grasped at any proposition which would relieve them as they thought from that evil. When a feeling of that sort prevailed, and prevailed among a class of persons whose complaints were entitled to the greatest weight, it was certainly advisable that the question should be investigated, and he thought upon the whole that there was no better way of investigating it than the one now suggested, of appointing a Committee to look into the matter, and endeavour to find out exactly what was the constitution of Tribunals of Commerce abroad, how far that constitution would be applicable to this country, and how far it might be improved. He candidly confessed he did not think it would be found to be an improvement, or that it could be introduced into this country with advantage or with satisfaction to the public. True, he might be mistaken. Therefore, he should be glad to see the subject investigated, and should not offer any opposition to the appointment of the Committee. He was anxious, however, that his hon. and learned Friend should understand that the Government did not anticipate that any useful result would ensue beyond this—that the subject would have been inquired into, and that those

  1153
  who took an interest in it would know all that could be said for and against it, and he expected then that they would see that, so far as the present system was concerned its effects must be remedied by the discovery and adoption of some other measure than the establishment of Tribunals of Commerce.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELL:—I am glad that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor General has consented to the appointment of this Committee. I am not much more sanguine, certainly, than he is as to the result of that Committee; but I think that very good results may arise from an investigation of the subject. I am much of the opinion of the hon. and learned Gentleman with respect to these Tribunals of Commerce. In this country commercial men are used to the privilege of bringing their cases before superior courts of law, where they find Judges highly instructed, and in possession of a code of laws which has grown up during many ages, and who arc perfectly able to give a clear and enlightened exposition of that law in any cases that may come before them. It has been pointed out that in many cases of libel Judges are not allowed to direct the jury as to the law, but that juries have the power of deciding both the questions of law and fact; but that power has arisen from political matters being mixed up with this class of cases. It was natural, therefore, and quite right, that the people of this country should insist upon juries being allowed to judge of the law; but with regard to commercial questions, in which no political considerations are involved, juries cannot do better—and I am sure it is what they would wish—than to listen to the opinions of the learned Judge who presides—to decide the question of fact for themselves; but to take the law from him. If, instead of a decision from so high an authority, you had, as I am afraid you would be liable to have—a somewhat confused opinion from men who have not that great knowledge and experience of the law, there would be less content and more discontent with those decisions: I cannot think, therefore, that the specific remedy proposed is exactly the one which would be likely to meet the evils which are complained of. No doubt it is a great evil that commercial men, in many cases, should be obliged, when they wish to close their accounts, to give up debts because of the delay which must take place before their claims can be heard. It is a great grievance, too, that special jurymen
  1154
  should be so often called on in the city of London to decide questions which come up from the country. I do not think that this altogether arises from the desire to obtain a better tribunal, as the Solicitor General argued; the reason very often is that parties have no chance of getting a decision of equal weight in the country without a considerable delay. This, together with other reasons, leads to a conviction which I certainly entertain, that, having made considerable progress of late years in the establishment of local tribunals—to the efficiency of which the Solicitor General is a witness — we shall have to make further progress in that direction. We shall have to improve and extend those local courts, either by having a greater number or by separating some of the smaller causes from them, in order to secure a more speedy administration of justice. There is no complaint as to the excellency of the administration of justice in these courts; but if that justice is not speedily done injustice is often done. A nation cannot possess a greater benefit than to have justice speedily as well as impartially administered, and every investigation tends to show that more may be done by us in this direction. In other questions besides this these local courts might exercise a beneficial jurisdiction, for there are many men who would prefer to have a speedy decision before a competent tribunal than delay a decision in order to get it from a higher court.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, he believed that the existing state of the law in respect to commercial matters did admit of very large improvements, and he hoped in this inquiry measures for carrying them out would be suggested. Thirty years ago they would have been startled to hoar the speech of the Solicitor General. It was then supposed that our administration of law was the essence of human wisdom; but looking back at the reforms which had since taken place, they were surprised now that they could so long have tolerated the anomalies which had been corrected. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) had referred to the Act for altering the procedure upon bills of exchange. That Act did great credit to his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Reading (Sir H. Keating) who introduced it. He (Mr. FitzGerald) was a member of the Select Committee by which the Bill was finally settled, and he thought at the time that the same system of summary procedure

  1155
  might be applied to some other contracts in writing as well as bills of exchange. It was one of the evils in our commercial law which this Committee -might afford the means of remedying. Another was the division of the systems of law and equity. Some steps, though very imperfect ones, had been made during the last few years towards abrogating the distinction between those systems, and he was happy to find that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor General, by the Bill which he would presently move for leave to introduce, promised a further advance in the same direction. He would ask any gentleman, merchant, or lawyer, whether there was any sound reason why commercial transactions should be investigated in two courts—one of law and the other of equity; or why the court of law, or the court primarily appealed to, should not administer both law and equity. Another subject which very much interested the public was the jurisdiction in bankruptcy. It was conceded that our bankruptcy system was cardinally defective. He had read articles, and heard from all sides that it was a discredit to the ago, that parties were frightened from the court by the great expense and delay, and that the percentage of working a fiat was something incredible. There was another topic which might well be considered by the Committee. He had himself introduced last year and carried through Parliament a Hill for the reform of the law of bankruptcy in Ireland, but though a great advance, it was by no means an approach to perfection. He believed that the result of the Act had been to reduce the expense one-fourth and to increase the business fourfold. He did not agree in one statement of the learned Solicitor General, namely, that they could not beneficially expedite the decision of questions arising upon commercial transactions. He believed that those decisions could he very much expedited with advantage to the public and economy to the suitors. He did not entertain any hope that they would be able to import Tribunals of Commerce into this country, though they might be able to adopt some other simple procedure. He had heard that these tribunals were established in Spain when the commercial transactions of that country were widely spread, thence imported into France, and gradually extended over the other States of Europe. Probably, by an investigation of the principles of those tribunals, they
  1156
  might discover something which would materially improve our own administration of commercial law. He thought that the Solicitor General had fallen into an error when he supposed that the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets had suggested that by means of Tribunals of Commerce questions of magnitude might he decided within twenty-four hours, he understood the hon. and learned Gentleman's statement to be that by means of the procedure of those tribunals cognizance might be taken of matters in dispute in such manner that the parties might within twenty-four hours be in a position to act safely in the disposition of property, instead of being obliged to act at their own peril. Upon these grounds he should support the Motion, and he believed great benefit would arise from the appointment of the Committee.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid that with reference to the statement of the Solicitor General, that these tribunals originated in a rude and comparatively uncivilized state of society, he had received a paper from Calcutta only yesterday, headed, "Draught of an Act and outlines of a Code for the organization, procedure, and jurisdiction of Tribunals of Commerce in Calcutta." He had not had time to go through it deliberately, and therefore could not speak to the whole of the details; but it was proposed to establish tribunals for the decision of all commercial questions, consisting of twenty-four Consuls, elected by the foreign and native merchants—two out of the twenty four to sit monthly for reference in all immediate cases. If a merchant bought goods on sample and rejected them on the ground that they were inferior, the Consuls would determine, he presumed, within twenty-four hours, whether they were according to sample or not; and he thought a commercial man would be much more likely to determine correctly than a learned Judge of the Supreme Court. The Consuls, being elected by the merchant community of Calcutta, would have their confidence. No doubt, these decisions would be acquiesced in and there would be very few appeals to the ordinary tribunals. The hon. and learned member for the Tower Hamlets was perfectly justified in bringing forward his Motion, and he should cordially support it.
  MR. M'MAHONsaid, he wished to suggest that if it were intended that the Committee should inquire into the questions of bankruptcy and the fusion of law and equity, the form of the Motion

  1157
  should be amended. He thought the Solicitor General was right in saying that Tribunals of. Commerce were a remnant of barbarous ages, not at all suitable to our jurisprudence; and there was the broad fact in support of that view that they had been tried in this country and failed. They had existed with regard to matters of assurance from the reign of Elizabeth to the close of the last century, when, in consequence of the partiality of the various gentlemen who had been called in to decide, they had fallen into disrepute. Mr. Justice Allan Park, one of the highest authorities on commercial law, used these memorable words: —
  "It has been much the fashion of late years to insist upon the advantages which the trading part of the nation would derive from the establishment of some equitable and amicable judicatory for the trial of all disputed points in matters of insurance. This is only another proof of the weakness and fallibility of the human mind, which is never satisfied with the enjoyments within its reach, however excellent they may be, but pants alter those of foreign growth. Thus, a people who are possessed of a. species of trial the best calculated for the discovery of truth and the advancement of justice, and which has excited the admiration of the world, are desirous of parting with such an advantage for a mode of trial which is very unsatisfactory."
  He pointed out that the merchants of other nations who had these tribunals had resorted to London for the purpose of assurance, in order to have the benefit of any question on their contract being tried in London.
  "It is universally agreed by all writers upon jurisprudence that nothing tends so much to the elucidation of truth and the detection of fraud as the open viva voce examination of witnesses in the presence of all mankind, before Judges who from their knowledge of books and men, acquired by long study and experience, are well qualified to discriminate and decide between right and wrong, and before twelve upright citizens who have an opportunity of observing the appearance, countenance, inclination, and deportment of those who are thus examined upon oath. Besides, the subjects of those States which have established these equitable tribunals, sensible of the superior advantages of the English institution, feeling that in great mercantile questions the greatest attention is paid to the external and immutable principles of reason, and that all men, whether natives or foreigners, here meet with an equal measure in the administration of justice, fly to this country to make their contracts of insurance, that in case of dispute they may have the benefit of its laws."
  He was satisfied it was impossible that any such tribunals would give satisfaction in this country. The Crown had already the power of trying prisoners, and to leave it to the decision of our civil rights also would be inconsistent with the nature of our laws and institutions. In the metropolis the
  1158
  superior courts held forty-eight sittings every year for the trial of civil causes. In Liverpool, Bristol, York, and Birmingham there were only two assize sittings in the year, so that parties in those towns were obliged to come to London, where so many more sittings wore held. He approved the suggestion that the number of assize sittings should be taken into consideration before the Committee, and if it were adopted he should not think it necessary to bring on the Motion of which he had given notice for Tuesday next.
  MR. BLAKEsaid, he spoke from experience when he said that Tribunals of Commerce worked most satisfactorily. One of these bodies had been in existence for six years in the large commercial city which he had the honour to represent (Water-ford), and was much resorted to by the merchants in cases of dispute. He agreed in the applicability of the principle, and believed that the extension and legalization of these tribunals would be of great advantage to the community. He should therefore support the Motion and he had no doubt that the results of investigation would lead to an adoption of that principle.
  MR. COLLIERsaid, he was glad that the Solicitor General had acceded to the Motion. Many persons among the commercial classes were of opinion that the grievances complained of would be remedied by the establishment of Tribunals of Commerce; but he was afraid that their expectations might be deceived, for he doubted whether such institutions would be found harmonious with the other legal institutions of the country. So far from adding to the number of these tribunals, he was of opinion that they had already quite enough, and it would be better to in-increase the efficiency of those they had than establish new ones. He concurred in the suggestion which had been made as to the propriety of amalgamating, as far as possible, law and equity. There were two other jurisdictions which it was equally desirable to amalgamate, the jurisdiction of the Court of Admiralty with that of the courts of common law. In the ease of an action for collision as the law now stood, a jury might award at common law a verdict for the plaintiff or the defendant; but the Court of Admiralty was empowered to determine the question whether both parties were not in the wrong, and apportion the damage accordingly. Such a jurisdiction was not only equitable but extremely salutary; and he saw no reason why it should

  1159
  not be granted to the superior courts, and if to them, to the County Courts also. He thought, also, that if this Committee were appointed, it might lead to the conclusion that the circuits of the Judges might be materially altered and improved. They might take place more frequently. Many towns not visited at present might become circuit towns; and by improving the jurisdiction of Judges at assizes, and extending the limits of the circuits, great improvements might be made in the administration of justice in this country. The jurisdiction of the County Courts might also, he thought, be extended so as to embrace cases such as those dealt with by Tribunals of Commerce in Franco. Indeed he was inclined to think that the courts might be constituted the real Tribunals of Commerce, presided over by competent lawyers. Taking into consideration the advantages which might be naturally expected to result from the appointment of this Committee, he was extremely glad the Motion had been acceded to, and thought that the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets was justly entitled to the thanks of the House.
  MR. BUCHANANsaid, that he doubted whether the range of inquiry proposed to be given to the Committee was not somewhat too large. If the inquiries of the Committee were to embrace the whole subject of law reform and the fusion of law and equity, those who looked to the establishment of Tribunals of Commerce for summary and speedy justice would be disappointed in the Report of the Committee. It was a great advantage that merchants should be able to look to a Tribunal of Commerce for a speedy decision upon their disputes. Tribunals of Commerce were not the product of the dark ages, or at any rate they were at the present day held in high esteem both in France and Germany, and from his own knowledge he could state that in Hamburgh the greatest advantage had arisen from the working of a tribunal of that nature. There were many cases in which it was most desirable they should have some legal tribunal to which they could resort, where they could give their evidence viva voce, and obtain a judgment in twenty-four hours. At present merchants were deterred from resorting to the tribunals, not from the expense, but from the enormous delay. When the Judge of the Court of Admiralty sat, a Trinity Brother occupied a scat on the bench in order to give the Judge the benefit of his practical knowledge. For the same reason
  1160
  a matter of mercantile usage was more properly submitted to the decision of mercantile authorities.
  MR. HORSFALLsaid, he wished to express his thanks to the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets, for the able manner in which he had brought this subject under the notice of the House. Although he was not himself very sanguine as to the results likely to accrue from the proposed inquiry, yet many of those whom he had the honour to represent took a different view, and he was glad therefore that the Solicitor General had assented to an investigation. The establishment of Tribunals of Commerce looked very well in theory, but he was afraid that it would assume a different aspect in practice. Nobody had yet ventured to answer the question of the Solicitor General, as to whether those who were to sit in the tribunals should be paid or unpaid Judges—a point of much difficulty, which would not be easily settled. The hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeen (Colonel Sykes) had produced a Report from Calcutta, as proving the necessity of Tribunals of Commerce, and had mentioned a case involving the question whether the stock corresponded with the sample. The case, according to the hon. and gallant Member, was speedily decided by being referred to a Tribunal of Commerce; but it would not be difficult to prove that? it might have been as expeditiously settled without the existence of such a tribunal. In all commercial communities in England, when a question arose which it was important should be speedily decided, the practice was to refer it to arbitration; and if the case mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member had been so referred, it would have been as quickly disposed of as by a Tribunal of Commerce. Liverpool had been referred to as having only two courts held in the course of the year where cases could be adjudicated upon, and allusion had been made to the Court of Passage. Now, there were four sittings of that court in the course of the year, in addition to two assize courts, so that in Liverpool justice was as speedily administered in commercial cases, as it possibly could be in courts of law. In conclusion, he was of opinion that if the County Courts were improved, and if their powers were extended, the mercantile community could do very well without Tribunals of Commerce.
  MR. AYRTONreplied. With reference to the payment of members of these tribu-

  1161
  nals, he said that those tribunals in France consisted of retired Judges, assisted by persons engaged in commerce, who were not paid. The mercantile members of the Tribunals of Commerce in this country would discharge the duties they were now called upon to discharge as jurymen, and they would no more seek for payment in the one case than in the other. At the same time he was not pledged to the introduction of any foreign system, and he had thrown out suggestions for accomplishing the same object by improvements in our present system. He was willing to embrace the question suggested by the hon. and learned Member for Wexford (Mr. M'Mahon) with regard to the fusion of law and equity, and he thought his Motion was large enough to embrace that question.
  Select Committee appointed,—
  "To inquire respecting the expediency of establishing Tribunals of Commerce, or of otherwise improving the administration of Justice in causes relating to Commercial Disputes."
  Motion agreed to.

CHANCERY AMENDMENT DILL.

  LEAVE.—FIRST READING.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL THE SOLICITOR GENERAL, in rising to move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the course of procedure in the High Court of Chancery, said that with the permission of the House he was anxious, in a very few words, to explain the objects of the measure. In the debate which had just terminated an hon. and learned Friend of his had made some observations with which he was at the time much struck. He alluded to the Hon. and learned Member for Ennis (Mr. J. D. Fitz-Gcrald, who said that the two most serious evils under which we laboured at present in regard to the administration of the law were—first, the defective state of the law of bankruptcy; and, secondly, the impossibility at present to obtain complete relief in a single court, the suitor being obliged to go to one court, which exhausted part of the case, and then to proceed to another for what he must call the supplemental relief which he desired to obtain. The defective state of the law of bankruptcy was one the importance of which could not be overrated, and he trusted that before many days passed over there would be presented to one or other branch of the Legislature a Bill which he was sanguine enough to hope would remedy, to a considerable extent, those evils which all must admit to exist. The present Bill would, he trusted,
  1162
  go far to remove the other evil mentioned. The measure had two objects in view, both tending to one common end,—to enable the suitor to obtain in one court the complete relief to which he was entitled. Those hon. Members who paid attention to the proceedings in the Court of Chancery would doubtless be aware that a largo portion of the jurisdiction of that Court consisted in giving relief in cases of breach of agreement, by restraining the continuance of the breach for the future; but it could not give damages for the injury inflicted in time past. For those damages the suitor was obliged to go to a court of common law; and thus he got prospective relief from the Court of Chancery, and retrospective relief from the court of common law. So, with respect to the specific performance of an agreement, the Court of Chancery could compel specific performance for the future, but could not give damages for the non-performance of the agreement in time past. Now, he proposed to remedy this state of things by empowering the Court of Chancery, upon any application for an injunction, or for the specific performance of an agreement, to award damages for the breach of the agreement up to the time when the Court gave relief. He ought to say that on this point a corresponding jurisdiction had been conferred by Parliament on the courts of common law. They could give retrospective relief by way of damages, and the Common Law Procedure Act enabled them also to exercise jurisdiction with respect to the future by way of injunction or decree for specific performance. He proposed that the Court of Chancery should in the same manner complete its jurisdiction, and then every suitor would have it in his power to appeal cither to the Court of Chancery or to a court of common law. In this way, if a perfect fusion of law and equity were not effected, at all events complete jurisdiction would be given to the courts of common law and equity in their several departments, so that there would be no portion of relief which any of those courts might not give to the suitor. This subject was brought before the Commission which sat to inquire into the procedure of the Court of Chancery, of which Commission several eminent Members of that House, among whom were the right hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham) and the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Henley) formed part. The subject was considered by

  1163
  them, and in the second report they recommended that this jurisdiction should be conferred on the Court of Chancery. That, then, was the first object of the Bill, and the second object was a corresponding one though different in its kind. He proposed to obviate the difficulty which now existed in the Court of Chancery in reference to trying questions of fact. Hon. Members conversant with proceedings in courts of law might he aware that in 1852 the mode of taking evidence in the Court of Chancery was materially altered, Up to that time it was taken in a very absurd manner—namely, by taking written depositions as they were called, the party being examined in private without his adversary being present, and the story was committed to paper by the person in whoso hand the questions were put which were to be asked of the witness. That practice was altered in 1852, and the system which had since prevailed was the system of viva voce examination; but the witnesses were not called before the Judge who had to decide the case, but before an examiner of the court in the presence of both the parties. No doubt that was a great improvement, but evils, and he might add evils of a serious kind, had grown out of the system. In the first place, it was obvious that it was a manifest evil that the Judge who had to decide the cause did not see the demeanour nor hear the evidence of the witnesses. But another objection was, perhaps, more serious—namely, that the examiner had no power to check the prolixity of the proceedings, or to decide as to the relevancy of the questions. The examiner, therefore, was at the mercy of the parties, and must take down every word, and examine all the witnesses, however numerous. The consequence was, that in cases involving a decision on questions of fact piles of papers were collected together, the sight of which might alarm any hon. Member in that House, and which had to be waded through page by page for the purpose of ascertaining one very small grain of fact, which might have been discovered, if the witnesses had been examined in the presence of the Judge, in one-tenth the time and at one-tenth the expense. The Court, then, was in very serious difficulty on the subject, for it could not check this prolixity nor prevent the expense which was incurred: and then, after all, if it were a case in which the witnesses gave evidence one against the other, the Court could not tell without seeing the witnesses which was
  1164
  telling truth and which falsehood. A jury, consequently, must have the opportunity of considering the question of fact raised, and an issue was sent to be tried by a jury in another Court, where, at a serious expense, the whole proceeding had to be gone through again. He therefore proposed that the Court of Chancery should have the power of calling in a jury with respect to any case in which a question of fact should arise sufficiently grave to warrant the interposition of a jury. Thus the issue which had hitherto been sent to be tried in a court of common law would be disposed of in the Court of Equity itself in the most simple expeditious, and economical manner. This arrangement was the more necessary in consequence of the first part of the Bill, because that gave to the Court of Chancery the power to grant damages, and they all know that there was no mode of assessing damages satisfactorily except through the intervention of a jury. Therefore, for assessing damages, and on questions of disputed fact, the Court of Chancery would have the advantage of a trial by jury. He did not propose to make his Bill compulsory in all cases, but to leave the matter in the first instance to the discretion of the Court, though, no doubt, that discretion would be very largely exercised in favour of the intervention of a jury; and if hereafter it should be found that this was a successful experiment, he trusted that they would be able still further to improve the mode of taking evidence, by means of witnesses examined in Court, where the Judge might observe their demeanour. Having thus shortly stated the objects of the measure, he trusted the House would consent to its introduction.
  MR. HEADLAMsaid, that he had listened with great pleasure to the hon. and learned Gentleman's statement, and had no hesitation in expressing his opinion that the Bill would confer a valuable jurisdiction on the Court of Chancery, and in many respects contribute to the effective administration of justice. There was no doubt that the provision with respect to suits for specific performance must be beneficial. As jurisdiction was given at common law, for complete justice in cases of breach of contract, so the same authority should be conferred on the Court of Chancery. No proposition could be more indisputable than that very Court in this country, great or small, should have full and complete power to bring to a conclusion all

  1165
  matters intrusted to its jurisdiction. With regard to the other proposal, that the Court of Chancery should have power to summon a jury, if a jury was the best tribunal for the decision of a question of fact, there was no reason why it ought to be confined to the courts of common law. Still he thought that in general it would be found that parties would be satisfied with having the question of fact decided by the Judge; and, therefore, he regretted that his hon. and learned Friend had not gone a step further, and provided that all witnesses upon issues brought before the Courts of Chancery should be examined in the presence of the Judges, precisely in the same manner as in the courts of common law. The system now adopted in the Courts of Chancery had not been satisfactory either to the suitors or to the Courts, but he believed that such an extension of this measure as he suggested would be very beneficial.
  MR. DEASYsaid, he believed the Bill would greatly improve the administration of justice. He hoped, however, it would not be confined to England, but that either by additional clauses, or by a separate Bill, the advantages it conferred would be extended to the suitors in the Court of Chancery in Ireland. The difficulties mentioned by the Solicitor General had been so sensibly felt in Ireland, that the late Lord Chancellor and the Master of the Rolls, when any question as to facts arose, instead of referring to the Examiner, had invariably required the witnesses to attend before them for examination, and had then come to a decision. He believed, however, that in many eases it would be a great relief to these learned Judges to have the assistance of a jury in determining disputed questions of fact. He might observe that there was at present no adequate machinery for taking down the evidence of witnesses in Chancery, and he would suggest that the Judges of courts of equity should be authorized to appoint shorthand writers to discharge this duty. Such an arrangement would not, he believed, involve any considerable expense.
  MR. MALINSsaid, he had no doubt the propositions contained in this Bill would be productive of great advantage. The power of sommoning a jury would unquestionably be very beneficial, and although he doubted whether such a power would be frequently exercised, he thought it ought to be given to the court. In four-fifths of the eases in Chancery the evidence was
  1166
  taken by affidavit, and it was only on cross-examination that vivâ voce evidence was given. The Court of Chancery was, however, now armed with the power both of examining and cross-examining witnesses vivâ voce, and some of the Judges readily availed themselves of the power, while others declined to do so. In the Court of Appeal before the Lords Justices, it was the common practice to examine and cross-examine the witnesses vivâ voce. The power was, however, in the discretion of the Court. There was considerable difference of opinion on the subject among the Judges; and in some brandies of the court the power was very rarely exercised. It was of great importance that Judges should have an opportunity of observing the demeanour of witnesses, and he thought it would be an improvement in the practice of the court if witnesses respecting matters of fact were in all cases cross examined before the Judge who was to decide the question. He considered that the administration of the Court of Chancery was now as creditable as it had been discreditable previously to 1852, for as a general rule there was no delay in that court, and cases which formerly occupied years were now decided in months. Believing that this Bill would further improve the efficiency of the Equity Courts, he would readily give it his support.
  MR. M'MAHONsaid, he had no doubt the measure would prove advantageous to the public, as it would in some degree assimilate the practice of the Court of Chancery to that of the courts of law. The hon. and learned Gentleman would confer a real service on the public, if, instead of having witnesses summoned up to Lincoln's Inn at great expense from remote parts of the country, he would send the issue to be tried—like issues of fact in law—before a Judge of Assize in the county where they arose. He thought that if witnesses were to be brought up from Cornwall, Yorkshire, and other distant places, great confusion and possible injustice would arise.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, he would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman, the Solicitor General, to give his attention to the suggestion of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cork (Mr. Deasy) as to the employment of a shorthand writer in each court where evidence was to be taken vivâ, voce. This would be a very great advantage in nisi prius courts, and it would be absolutely essential in the Irish Chancery Courts if the additional duty pro-

  1167
  posed by this Bill was extended to them. With regard to the Bill itself, he did not consider that it went far enough, but it took a step in the right direction in abolishing to some extent the distinction between courts of law and equity.
  MR. MELLORsaid, that, having some experience in Committees when notes were taken by a shorthand writer, and also knowing something of the proceedings of courts of law, he was bound to express a hope that nothing would be done to relieve the Judge from the necessity of taking notes which now devolved upon him. This necessity led the Judge to bestow the most unceasing attention on the case, and it would be a great misfortune if, by delegating the duty to a shorthand writer, the Court should not, as heretofore, feel compelled to maintain throughout that vigilant watchfulness so necessary for the duo administration of justice. The provision in the Bill that the Judges who had to determine upon the evidence should see the witnesses was one of great value. Though a great improvement had been effected in the old practice, the present mode of taking evidence in chancery was very unsatisfactory, and he believed that this part of the Bill would be productive of great benefit. With reference to what had been said in respect to dispensing with juries in certain cases, and allowing the Judge to decide matters of fact, he thought it far better that in all disputed cases the assistance of a jury should be called in. This was the opinion of Mr. Justice Cresswell, the present Judge of the Court of Probate, and he entirely agreed in it.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL THE SOLICITOR GENERAL, in reply, said, he did not mean to make it compulsory upon the Court to summon the witnesses from the country; it would be loft to the Judge, if he thought fit, to direct the issue to be tried in the country. With respect to the employment of a shorthand writer, he would ask what was to be done at the close of the trial when the Judge, having taken no notes, was called upon to charge the jury? The shorthand writer's notes would not be available, because there would not have been time to transcribe them, and he doubted, therefore, whether any saving of time would be effected. With respect to what the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. J. D. FitzGerald) had said as to the Bill not going further, he had to remark that with the exception of the two cases he had mentioned he was not aware that any Chancery
  1168
  suitor could not get complete relief. If any other could be suggested, he would gladly give it consideration. The hon. and learned Member for Newcastle (Mr. Head-lam) had referred to the advisability of taking evidence in Court vivâ voce, and for himself he thought it very desirable to have witnesses examined in the presence of the Judges; but the reason why he had made no provision in the Bill to that effect was, that the Court of Chancery already possessed power.
  Leave given.
  Bill to amend the course of Procedure in the High Court of Chancery ordered to be brought in by Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL, Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, and Mr. Secretary WALPOLE.
  Bill presented, and read 1°.

CONSTANTINOPLE AND BASSORAH TELEGRAPH.

  ORRESPONDENCE MOVED FOR.
  SIR HENRY RAWLINSONmoved for an address for copies or extracts of correspondence that might have passed between Her Britannic Majesty's Embassy at Constantinople and the Foreign Office during the last six months on the subject of the establishment of a line of telegraph between Constantinople and Bassorah. The hon. and gallant Member stated that he did intend, in moving for those papers, to make a statement to the House with the view of showing that telegraphic communication between England and India viâ Egypt and the Red Sea was, to say the least, difficult, if not impracticable, white such communication viâ Asiatic Turkey and the Persian coast was in an equal degree easy, and if the operations were conducted with tolerable skill and care would, in a short time, be successfully carried out. As it was now so late (twenty minutes to eleven o'clock) he would postpone that statement until the whole subject came before the House upon a Motion of which another hon. Member had given notice.
  Motion agreed to.
  Address for—
  "Copies or Extracts of Correspondence that may have passed between Her Britannic Majesty's Embassy at Constantinople and the Foreign Office during the last six months, on the subject of the establishment of a line of Telegraph between Constantinople and Bassorah."

CLERKS OF PETTY SESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL.

  COMMITTEE DEFERRED.
  LORD NAASsaid, he wished to state the course which he intended to pursue

  1169
  with regard to this Bill, and also with regard to the Medical Charities (Ireland) Act Amendment Bill, the Grand Juries (Ireland) Bill, and the Markets and Fairs (Ireland) Bill. He should propose to postpone the Committee on the Clerks of Petty Sessions Bill till Monday, April 26. Of the Medical Charities Bill he could not support the first three clauses, but would himself introduce a measure to carry out its other provisions. To the Grand Juries Bill there were so many objections that he could not undertake to make the Government responsible for it; and the second reading of the Markets and Fairs (Ireland) Bill he would fix for Monday next, with the view of obtaining a discussion of its provisions on an early day. He would not pledge himself to all its details, and thought it might very fairly be referred to a Select Committee.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, that those were measures which ought not to he in the hands of private Members, and therefore, if there was any one of which the noble Lord would not take charge, it would be better that the order for the further proceeding with that Bill should be discharged. With regard to the others, he would be ready to give the noble Lord all the assistance in his power. He was especially anxious about the first-named Bill, upon which some pains had been spent, and to perfect which the right hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. Herbert) had promised his assistance.
  Committee deferred till Monday, 26th April.
  House adjourned at Eleven o'clock.

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Braybrooke, after the death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Barrel Organ Suppression; Customs; Ecclesiastical Commission.

COMMUNICATION BETWEEN LONDON AND DUBLIN.—QUESTION.
VISCOUNT DUNGANNONrose to ask the noble Lord the Postmaster Genera the following questions:—Whether any Arrangement has been definitely come to on the part of Her Majesty's Government, with the Dublin Steam Packet Company, relative to the Transmission of the Mails between Holyhead and Kingstown; and whether the difficulties reported to have arisen with regard to carrying into effect the object of larger Vessels, capable of performing the passage in a shorter period of time, being placed on that Station, have been overcome?—The subject was one in which the people of the sister country took a very deep interest, and there was no doubt that the journey between London and Dublin could be performed in from an hour to an hour and a half less time than that which it now occupied.
LORD COLCHESTERsaid, that during the last Session of Parliament, an Act was passed, enabling the London and North Western and the Chester and Holyhead Railway Companies, and the Dublin Steam Packet Company to enter into a compact with the Government on this subject. The heads of an agreement having been prepared, it was submitted to the solicitor of the Post Office, in order to be put into a legal shape, and a draught contract was accordingly drawn up in the beginning of last January, and sent to the Treasury for approval. The document, when approved, was returned to the Post Office, and on the 15th of February it was forwarded to the companies for their signatures. Here the matter stood at present; but the Post Office had no reason to suppose that any objection would be raised, on the part of the companies, or that the contract would not in a short time be completed and put into practical operation. The basis of the arrangement was, that the entire distance between Euston Square and Dublin should be performed in the maximum space of eleven hours; and four largo vessels, of a high tonnage, were to be put upon the station. When the contract had been signed, the construction of the vessels would be commenced.
After a few words from Earl TALBOT,
LORD REDESDALEsaid, he thought that there were greater difficulties in the way of carrying out this arrangement than either of his noble Friends appeared to apprehend. It appeared, from a Bill that had come before him, that an amalgama-

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tion was now contemplated between the Chester and Holyhead and the London and North Western Railway Companies, and an arrangement was in progress between them, the effect of which would necessarily be to throw the entire control of the mail and passenger traffic between London and Dublin into the hands of the London and North Western Railway Company. After the expenditure that had been incurred in improving Holyhead and Kingstown Harbour, in order to accelerate the passage between the two kingdoms, it would be a very unwise thing for Parliament to grant a monopoly of the traffic to any one railway company. The parties were now before Parliament, asking for powers; and, until their application was disposed of, nothing would be settled between the steampacket and the railway companies as to the building of a better class of vessels.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEregretted to find that, on the whole, this long-pending question had rather retrograded than progressed. It would appear that even the preliminaries of an arrangement for expediting the communication between the two capitals had not yet been decided. The noble Marquess then called attention to what he termed the very disgraceful want of accommodation for passengers, on their arrival at Kingston. A covered way was urgently required at the landing place, and its erection would be attended by a very small outlay. It appeared that some parties were desirous of having the passage between Holyhead and Kingstown so accelerated as to consume only three hours or three hours and a half; but he trusted that the Government would not further their wish, for a passage so speedy as that would endanger the lives of the passengers.
VISCOUNT DUNGANNONsaid, he had been assured by one of the most experienced captains plying between Holyhead and Kingstown—namely, Captain Warren —that, in fair weather, the passage could be performed in three hours or three hours and a half, without the slightest risk of endangering life. That gentleman, therefore, suggested that the captains should be at liberty to accomplish the journey in that time, if the weather permitted. The observations of the noble Chairman of Committees diminished the hope that he (Viscount Dungannon) had entertained of a speedy and satisfactory arrangement on this subject. He, nevertheless, trusted
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that the Government would endeavour to effect a desirable arrangement before the end of the Session. If he did not see that in prospect, he should deem it his duty to bring the subject before the House again.

PASSPORTS—PAPERS PRESENTED.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I beg leave, my Lords, to lay upon your Lordships' table the Correspondence which has taken place between the English and the French Governments on the subject of Passports. I cannot help thinking that it would be convenient to the public generally, if I were to explain to your Lordships in as few words as possible what has passed on the subject, and what Her Majesty's late Government, and what Her Majesty's present Government have done in respect of it. Your Lordships know very well, that after the attempt made on the Emperor's life at Paris, the French Government, naturally alarmed at attacks carried out by foreigners residing in this and other countries, thought that the Emperor's life would be made more secure by a change in the passport law; and a suggestion was made by Her Majesty's consul at Havre—if I am not right, my noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Clarendon) will correct me—that it would be better that no passports were issued to English subjects by French agents, That suggestion was communicated by my noble Friend (the Earl of Clarendon) to the French Government, who adopted it. My Lords, though I heard many complaints made against the French Government, I felt that those complaints were unjust, because nothing can be more just—if the system of passports is to be followed out —than that they should require that any subject of foreign countries visiting France should present passports signed by the authorities of the countries to which they belong. The consequence was, that when the new arrangements were made, some difficulty was created — or I may say, there was less facility for Englishmen to obtain passports to visit France. Indeed, many Englishmen formerly passed without any passport between England and Boulogne and Calais; and even if he went further into the interior of France, and found himself without a passport in any town where there was an English agent, he obtained his passport from him, and was not obliged to come and make an application at the Foreign Office. There

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was another panic created—one amongst English subjects residing in France, who thought there might be some difficulty in respect to the passports on which they had entered that country; but I must say, the French Government most liberally say, that any English subjects living in France, need not have English passports in travelling from one town to another, but may have French passports given them in France. The French Government first said, that the English passport should be signed by the Consul General of France in this country; but, since then, they have issued a regulation by which any French agent may visé an English passport, and his visé will be acknowledged; and they have appointed agents at Liverpool and the principal ports, who arc empowered to visé passports without the traveller having to come to London. So much as to the French arrangements; now, with respect to the English. When my noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Clarendon) found that he was to issue the whole of the passports to English travellers from the Foreign Office, he naturally thought that before these passports were granted by the Foreign Office, that office should have some guarantee that the person getting the passport was really the person whose name it bore. We have heard it suggested, that any passport granted to an English subject should be merely a certificate of English citizenship. My Lords, I think a little consideration will satisfy your Lordships, and our fellow-countrymen at large, that that would not be sufficient; but that a passport ought to be a certificate of identification of the person who bears it. That appears to have been the view taken by my noble Friend (the Earl of Clarendon); and my noble Friend sought that security in a certificate to be granted by, I believe, the mayors of towns, by magistrates, and by bankers. However, it was found that this arrangement was inconvenient to many persons; that the number was not large enough of those who could grant those certificates to parties who required passports, and that there was delay and inconvenience in sending the certificate to the Foreign Office; and many of those who complained of this inconvenience, suggested that mayors and magistrates ought to be allowed not only to give certificates, but actually passports, independent of the Foreign Office. My Lords, that seemed very plausible at first, and the suggestion received my attentive consideration; but what is
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everybody's business is nobody's business, and neither mayors of towns nor magistrates could be obliged by any law, or by Executive authority, to give a passport at any hour of the day or night, or not to refuse to give a passport at all—and it was most necessary, that when a man asked for a passport, he should have it as soon as possible. We know that some mayors and magistrates, at least, would scarcely be good-natured enough to act as amateurs in that business: but I can imagine a mayor just sitting down to dinner, or a country magistrate just mounting his hack to meet the hounds, being applied to at that particular moment for a passport. I think it very likely that the applicant under such circumstances would hear anything, but wishes for a pleasant journey. Under these circumstances, my Lords, it occurred to me that the best thing we could do was to widen the area of godfathers—if I may so name those who give the certificates of identification; and Her Majesty's Government, at my suggestion, has agreed that, to the mayors and magistrates we shall add the clergymen of the various Christian denominations, physicians and surgeons, solicitors and notaries. We propose to empower those gentlemen to give certificates of identification to persons wishing to obtain passports. I think it is almost impossible that any person in any part of England, who has not spent his life in complete obscurity, should not be able to find in this category some one to identify him. I have seen it stated that it is a very great inconvenience to many persons to have to come to London for their passports, and that there ought to be a passport of another sort given in other places and in other ways. Now, in respect to those two kinds of passports — or several kinds of passports, for it would come to that— those of the Foreign Office and those of the magistrates—I see very considerable inconvenience, not to the Government, but to the traveller himself, as sure to arise from them. If there were several classes of passports, there would be several different descriptions of arms, of seals, and of signature. The consequence of this would be, that the passport authorities abroad would be very much puzzled, and English travellers would frequently be detained at different points on their route. The arms of Her Majesty are known; the signature of the Foreign Secretary soon becomes familiar to those agents, who at once recognise the value of the Foreign-

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office passport. But I do not think the same value would be attached by them to those other passports which would not have come from that office. And I therefore thought it of importance to English travellers that their passports should be issued from the Foreign Office. To prevent the trouble of coming to London to apply for a Foreign-office passport, Her Majesty's Government have appointed at Dovor, Folkstone, and Southampton, three agents for the delivery of Foreign-office passports, and another has also been appointed at Liverpool. I do not say that more may not be appointed if it is found necessary at other ports, but those that I have now named have been appointed. Moreover, if travellers wish to save themselves inconvenience of any kind, whenever they may reside in the centre of England, or on the sea coast, they have only to provide themselves with a certificate of identity from their clergyman, their surgeon, their physician, their solicitor or notary, or from the nearest magistrate or mayor of a town. They may take this certificate with them to the Foreign Office, or to the port where they intend to embark. There they will find a Foreign Office agent, who will deliver to them a Foreign-office passport, which will be vise by the French consular agent in these ports. Or they may send their certificate a day or two beforehand to the Foreign Office, or to the agent in the ports I have named, say that they wish to have a passport by such a day or hour, and it will be forwarded to them by post. I do not think that, under these regulations, any inconvenience can arise, or any difficulty can be experienced by any person in getting a passport. But, further, Her Majesty's Government have thought it right to lower the duty on passports. The duty on the stamp was previously 5s., with a fee of 1s. to cover the Foreign Office expenses. We propose to reduce the stamp to 1s., with another 1s. for the Foreign Office expenses, making altogether 2s. I think it is only fair, as the poorer classes, navigators, labourers on railways, and others going abroad, are now under the necessity of going with a Foreign-office passport, that they should he enabled to obtain those passports at as low a rate as possible. I do not think that I could do more to facilitate the obtaining of passports. And I have made this statement in the hope that it may be well understood by the country, to whom I have no doubt it will be reported through the
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usual course; for one of the great difficulties of this question has been that persons have exaggerated and magnified the inconveniences from not understanding the regulations issued by the late Foreign Secretary with respect to passports. I should add only one recommendation to those likely to travel, especially to gentlemen who live on the coast of England while their families are in France, and who are likely to be called upon to travel suddenly by the illness of any portion of their family. Now, if the passport only costs 2s., it appears to me that almost any man in this country might as well at once furnish himself with that document as with a Bradshaw and an almanack; and then he would be able to go abroad at any moment. He would not meet with any difficulty on this side of the Channel; and, from the liberal conduct of the French Government, I think I may say that he is not likely to meet with any on the other.
THE EARL OF CLARENDONsaid, he had heard with great satisfaction the statement of his noble Friend on this subject, which was of so much importance to so large a portion of her Majesty's subjects. He had no doubt that from the liberal arrangements of the French Government, and by the extended arrangements made by his noble Friend in this country, all the objects in view would be attained. The arrangement he had himself made, when the French Government determined to do away with the system of passports granted in this country by the French consuls to English subjects were merely provisional, to meet the exigencies of the moment, although it is much the same as that which was adopted three years ago in order to enable artizans and others of that class to visit the Paris Exhibition. He had always felt that the system established by those regulations would probably have to be enlarged; but he established them at a time of year when there was not much travelling, and when not much inconvenience was likely to be caused. Of course some inconvenience must be felt from any change of this nature, but he believed that the inconvenience which had been caused was not great, and that that change on the whole would be beneficial, more especially to the poorer classes of our countrymen. The stimulus which is given to artizans to go abroad was very much owing to the facility which was given to get passports from the foreign agents; whereas if they had to address themselves

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for passports to the English authorities, they could have advice tendered to them as to the prudence of seeking employment abroad. The misery to which hundreds and thousands of Englishmen had been subjected for want of such advice was almost incalculable. It was, in fact, only two or three years ago that the evil was so trying that her Majesty's Government deemed it advisable to publish a notice in the Gazette warning our artizans of the danger of seeking employment abroad, and also warning them that the English Government would not be responsible for the cost of bringing them back to this country. He believed that travellers would find the advantage of travelling with a Foreign-office passport, which would relieve them from many of the inconveniences which sometimes were sustained from travelling with a simple consular passport. For his own part, he thought the passport system a great mistake. It did not afford protection to foreign Governments against the people they feared, and against whom they wished to guard. Those were the very people who always took care to have their passports en regle; it was the innocent traveller who was exposed to the detention of the police from the want of compliance with some technical formality. He knew that the Emperor of Franco himself was opposed to the passport system, and that some years ago be wished to do away with passports; but he was beaten by his own officials, who insisted that passports were in some way necessary for carrying out that system of strict surveillance which is deemed necessary in France.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: The great passport interest, in fact.
THE EARL OF CLARENDONhoped that the system would not last much longer. There was one circumstance which encouraged that hope. A few years ago the Austrian passport regulations were more rigorously carried out and caused more annoyance than those of any other country in the world. But a great change has been made within the last twelve months in that system, and now he believed that there was no country on the Continent where a traveller could travel about with such facility as in Austria. But we could not impose our notions upon others, and all the Government could do was to afford as much facility as possible to British subjects. He thought his noble Friend had done as much as could be done at present. He had heard with much satisfaction that
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the cost of the passport was to be reduced, though he did not exactly understand how he meant to do it. He had in February last reduced the cost of the passport from 7s. 6d. to 6s. by cutting down the fee of the Foreign Office from 2s. 6d. to 1s., because be found that 1s. on each passport would be sufficient to maintain the passport establishment; and while he did not think that the public should be put to any expense on this head, he did not think that they should make any profit. He bad also proposed to his colleagues to abolish the 5s. stamp duty; but they found that it had been imposed by Act of Parliament, and could not be abolished without another.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I should have said that we intend to bring in a bill for that purpose.
THE EARL OF CLARENDONwould suggest that the Government should consider, while they were about it, whether it was desirable to retain even a stamp duty of 1s. To relinquish it would sacrifice a very inconsiderable amount of revenue, while it would leave the holder of a passport in a much better position than he had ever hitherto been. All consuls had hitherto charged 5s., and to place a passport within the reach of every one for 1s. would be a great boon to the poorer classes.
In reply to a NOBLE LORD,
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that he knew of no limit to the duration of a Foreign-office passport granted to British-born subjects. For naturalised subjects the custom had been to limit its duration to a year.
EARL GREYsaid, there could be no greater proof of the absurdity of the passport system than the regulations proposed by the English Government, and sanctioned by the French Government. If the Foreign Office was to deliver passports to any one who brought a certificate from the various persons whom the noble Earl had named, of the authenticity of which the Foreign Office could have no proof —for he supposed his noble Friend was not acquainted with the signature of every country surgeon—he saw no reason why all the mayors and magistrates in the kingdom should not be furnished with blank Foreign-office passports, which they could fill up and deliver to applicants without any further formality. There was no pretence of investigation to prevent any one not a British subject getting a passport, nor any security against a British subject

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handing over his passport the next moment to a foreigner. When the noble Earl had gone so far, he did not see why he should not go further, and supply passports ready filled up to competent authorities in the different towns to deliver them, on their own responsibility, at once to any applicant. The present regulations would not afford any guarantee that the person getting a passport was a British subject, while he was afraid that they would inflict more inconvenience in obtaining passports than his noble Friend seemed to expect.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I am not here to defend the system of passports. No man in this House thinks more contemptuously of them than I do. But I thought I had made myself clear when I gave the reasons why I do not send Foreign-office passports for delivery to the mayors or magistrates of towns, or allow these authorities to deliver others. It is because they would not be obliged to do it. If the noble Earl could find some way to make them do it, this would no doubt add some facility. But what could be done if the mayors refused to distribute passports; Some might say they would only distribute them between 12 and 2 o'clock; others might say they would only do so in the evening; while others might decline to distribute them at all. People must be obliged to do it, and paid to do it; and when they are paid to do it, they are obliged to do it. If it is to be a self-supporting establishment, it must be conducted economically. The more agents there are, the more agents must be paid; and if each of a large number of agents distribute a small number of passports, the payment which would be sufficient for a small number of agents distributing a large number of passports would not be enough for their trouble. We know pretty well how many passports will be demanded, and we calculate that with only six or seven agents, who will be obliged to deliver them at any time of the day or night, the system will be self-supporting at a certain charge. That is my answer to the proposition of the noble Earl, which has often been submitted before; but if my noble Friend can tell me how I am to oblige magistrates in town or country to deliver passports, it will be a somewhat different matter.
EARL GREYsaid, he could not understand why there should not be a convenient local delivery, where parties were willing to undertake the trouble. He quite agreed that it would be very inconvenient to com-
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pel parties to deliver passports, or to have too many agents.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the country ought to be grateful to the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, for the pains which he had taken to increase the facilities of obtaining passports, but at the same time the suggestion of the noble Earl (Earl Grey) was worthy of attention. The whole thing turned upon whether the French Government had assented to this plan; because, if they had, there was nothing more to be said. He wished to know whether the new system applied solely to France, or to other countries as well.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: No country has ever objected to any passport signed by the Secretary for Foreign Affairs. They have always trusted that the passport has been signed upon his being satisfied that it was the bonâ fide passport of the applicant, and I have never heard of a Foreign-office passport being questioned in any way.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
BILL PRESENTED.—READ la.
THE DUKE OF MARYBOROUGHsaid, that in 1856 a Committee of the other House was appointed in consequence of its being necessary to renew the Act which had been passed in a previous year for permitting and enabling the enfranchisement of church leases, and that Committee took the opportunity of entering very fully into the subject of the constitution of the Ecclesiastical Commission. Several points of great importance came under their consideration, and, among others, as to the mode of assigning estates which should yield fixed incomes to the Bishops, as to the appointment of a third paid Commissioner as a member of the Church Estates Commission, and as to a period being fixed for the determination of subsisting leases. A Bill embodying the recommendation of the Committee was introduced by the Government last year; but when it came up to this House their Lordships thought that at such a late period, it was not possible to pass a measure of so much importance, and contented themselves with passing an Act continuing the Enfranchisement Acts for two years longer. Under these circumstances he wished to ask the noble Earl at the head of the Government the question of which he had given notice, namely—whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to proceed

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with the Bill introduced last Session by the late Government into the House of Commons, embodying the recommendations of the Select Committee of that House, 1856, upon the Ecclesiastical Commission.
THE EARL or DERBYsaid, the best answer be could give to the question was by laying on the table the Bill to which the noble Duke had referred, and asking their Lordships to give it a first reading. He should have done so on Monday evening, but he thought it desirable first to obtain the assent of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and in consequence of the most reverend Prelate being out of town, he had not been able to do this until the day previous. It was precisely in the same shape as the Bill which came up to that House last Session, founded on the recommendations of the Committee of 1856. He should propose to take the second reading on Tuesday next, when he would enter into an explanation of its provisions.
A Bill to amend the Acts relating to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and continue the Act concerning the management of Episcopal and Capitular Estates in England, presented.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, that as this Bill did not contain any provision upon the important subject of Capitular Estates, he should bring forward a measure on the subject.
Bill read 1a
House adjourned at a quarter-past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.