Sitting of 28 July 1857

GENERAL BOARD OF HEALTH BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  SIR GEORGE GREY, in moving that the House resolve itself into Committee on this Bill, said he wished to explain briefly the object of the Bill. The House was aware that by several Acts of Parliament general permanent powers had been established for the purpose of securing the public health, while a temporary authority alone had been provided by which those powers could be carried into execution. In the course of last year the General Board of Health, as at present constituted, was continued until the 29th of July in the
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  present year, and until the end of the then next Session of Parliament. It was therefore necessary, unless Parliament should be of opinion that the powers of the Board should entirely cease, that provision should be made for the continuance of the exercise of powers which in many parts of the country had proved very beneficial, in the event of the occurrence of any emergency, such as the breaking out of an epidemic. The Government thought it unnecessary to continue as a distinct and separate department the Board of Health, and were of opinion, now that a Vice President of the Council of Education was appointed, with a seat in that House, that the powers vested in the Board of Health might be placed in the hands of the President of the Council of Education, aided by the Vice President. Thus the parliamentary responsibility under the proposed arrangement would be quite as complete as at present, and a considerable saving would be effected to the public, as the salary of the President of the Board of Health and other expenses connected with the Board would be immediately reduced. The object of the present Bill was to transfer the powers of the General Board of Health to a Committee of the Privy Council, but he understood some objection, was entertained to the permanent character of the provisions of the measure. A Bill amending the Public Health Act of 1848 had been introduced, the consideration of which had been delayed so long by circumstances that it was now impossible it could receive the attention it deserved during the present Session. Therefore he admitted it would not be reasonable to ask the House to provide by the Bill which he now proposed a permanent authority to carry out the provisions of another measure which yet remained to be discussed; and under the circumstances all he should do would be to ask the House to alter the present measure to a mere continuance Bill, but to connect with that continuance Bill enactments for the abolition of the office of the President of the Board of Health and the transference of the powers of that Board for a temporary period to the Education Committee of the Privy Council. He should propose in Committee that the present Bill should continue in force only until the 29th of July in next year, and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament, and the whole subject in connection with the Act of 1848 would be brought under the consideration

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  of Parliament in the ensuing year.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."
  MR. KNIGHTmoved, as an Amendment, that the House go into Committee upon the Bill that day three months. Ever since 1854 they had been promised a general measure on this subject, and on the faith of that promise they had passed several renewal Bills. But the Government had not kept faith with the House; and now he thought they ought to fight the Board not as leaseholders, but as tenants at will—that was to say, let the House throw out this Bill and then the Government would be compelled to bring in the general measure they had promised, or the powers of the Board would expire. He objected to the continuance of a permanent central Board to over-ride the whole towns in England, and thus to place them in much the same position as those in Austria as regarded the central Government. He should himself not be satisfied with any Bill which did not convert the various local boards of health into independent corporations in one shape or another, so that they might become entirely independent of the Government, and be acceptable to the inhabitants. He was also opposed, on constitutional grounds, to transferring powers to the Privy Council—a proceeding which, in his opinion, was not unlike the innovation of the Star Chamber. He wished the Bill to be so altered that if the promised Bill of the Government were not brought in and passed next year, the Board of Health would expire and not again be revived.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House will, upon this day three months, resolve itself into the said Committee," instead thereof.
  SIR GEORGE PECHELLalso objected altogether to transferring the office from Richmond Terrace to the corner of Downing Street. He was decidedly against the powers of the existing Act being given to the Privy Council, and would oppose the preamble with the exception of the portion which dissolved the present General Board of Health.
  MR. PALKsaid, he considered this Bill to be highly objectionable. He was not aware that the Privy Council had any special aptitude for carrying out such sanitary regulations as the country might
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  require. But he regarded this as a question affecting less the public health than the good faith of the Government. Last year they had introduced, and succeeded in passing, a continuance Bill on the most distinct understanding that they should introduce a general public health measure sufficiently early in the present Session to afford time for a full discussion of its merits. Upon that pledge, and that pledge alone, they had obtained the assent of the House to a continuance Bill. But they were at present leaving unaccomplished the engagement into which they had thus entered. The Bill which they had introduced, but with which they did not mean to persevere, was as objectionable an one of its kind as any he had ever known. One of its clauses would render permanent all the main provisions of the Act of 1848. But that Act had been found wholly ineffective for the attainment of the object for which it had been framed; it tended to destroy local self-government, while it had contributed to add largely to taxation and to create considerable irritation and ill-will in the districts to which it had been extended. He gave his cordial support to the Motion for the rejection of the measure then under the consideration of the House.
  MR. COWPERsaid, that the Government had redeemed their pledge to introduce a general Bill on this subject, and he was most anxious that it should pass in the present Session; but hon. Gentlemen opposite were more responsible for delaying the Bill than he was. He regretted that there should not be in that House the same interest in sanitary questions which was felt in the country, but if the House was not willing to give precedence to questions affecting the health and lives of the people over merely political questions, they must not complain of delay. With reference to the necessity of continuing the existing Act, the House must remember that the Municipal Act did not give the powers which were exercised under the Public Health Act in reference to drainage, cleansing, and all matters connected with the purification and improvement of dwellings in towns, and the consequence had been that something like forty municipalities had adopted the Public Health Act, and had found its powers of the greatest use and advantage. As for the statement that the Act of 1848 promoted jobbing, all he could say was, that the power given to the central Board was given to prevent jobbing on the part of the local Boards,

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  and all the powers complained of as arbitrary were simply exercised for the benefit of the inhabitants of towns by controlling those who governed them. The power of applying the Act against the wish of the inhabitants, though it existed on paper, was never exercised. On the other hand, several of the corporate towns, of their own will, had come under the operation of the Act, and found the greatest benefit from it. He had a list of forty-five towns in which sanitary works had been completed, and it appeared from that list there was a great decrease in the rate of mortality since the completion of those sanitary works. In Coventry, the mortality had fallen in the proportion of 27 to 24; in Darlington, from 68, in 1852, to 23; in Derby, from 28 to 23; in Swansea, from 22 to 19, and so on. The Registrar General in his Report said, that the effects of the sanitary measures which had been recently taken were beginning to be apparent, and that the mortality in 1,000 had fallen from the average of 23, in the ten years between 1846 and 1855, to 21 in 1856. That, he thought, was decisive. In the case of Sandgate the mischief arose from the mismanagement of the local Board in employing improper people to do their work, and vesting in one individual functions which he was not able to perform. The case of Croydon had been much talked of, but he had lately made inquiries of all the medical men and others in that town as to its state. The answer of Dr. Carpenter, confirmed by all the rest, was to the effect that the drainage of Croydon under the local board had effected great sanitary improvement. The evil which had been felt there had been corrected by the efforts of the General Board of Health. The exertions of the General Board of Health had led to London being supplied with pure water, but still other towns stood in need of that prime necessity. A valuable Report was being prepared by the General Board of Health on the subject of the warming and ventilation of the dwellings of the poor, which would be productive of great advantage. Then there was the subject of vaccination, the law on which could not remain as it was, and an enormous mortality arising from small-pox and imperfect vaccination might be checked and prevented by the intervention of a central department. Again, the adulterations of food and drugs were matters to deal with which it was necessary to have some central authority. He therefore
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  hoped the House would not be of opinion that it could abolish the Board of Health without establishing some central department in its place.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he was anxious to meet in a spirit of fairness the opponents of the measure, and, admitting that it was desirable that some security should be taken for the consideration of the whole subject next year, he had proposed to limit the operation of the Bill according to the usual Parliamentary practice; but as distrust had been expressed, he was willing to depart from that form, and instead of limiting the operation of the Bill to the 29th of July next year, and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament, he would propose a fixed day next year—the 1st of September—beyond which the Bill should not operate. If, however, the House preferred to have a mere continuance Act, the Government could have no other objection to that course being adopted except that it would involve an expense of some £3,000 or £4,000 a year to the country.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that if the right hon. Gentleman contented himself with a simple continuance Act until the 1st of September next year, he would meet the views of all who opposed the present Bill; but if he went further, and insisted on the transference of the powers of the Board of Health to the Privy Council, he would be met with opposition. It was said that a saving would be effected by this Bill in consequence of the abolition of the office of President of the Board of Health; but the same saving might be effected without the Bill by the Government appointing, until the whole question should be discussed, some one now in office to perform the duties under the Bill for the salary he at present received. From the speech of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cowper), it would seem that the action of the central authority was to be extended to almost every matter, as if the people of England were wholly unable to take care of themselves. He, however, was of opinion that bad local government was better than the best central government, for the political health of the people was even of more importance in the end than their bodily health.
  SIR WILLIAM HEATHCOTEsaid, it seemed to him that now the only question before the House was, whether in the continuance Bill the powers of the Board of Health should be transferred to another

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  authority. He thought that that was an important part of the matter which was to come under consideration at a future period, and the House should not anticipate a decision on it by adopting the provision as to the transfer of powers in the present Bill. It would be much better to make this Bill a mere continuance Bill.
  MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, that last September a gentleman who represented the Board of Health attended a congress at Brussels. He made a speech, and above all other things, he recommended the people there to have boards of health. [Mr. COWPER: He was not a member of the Board of Health.] At all events, that gentleman made a speech in the presence of the Board of Health, and was cheered by the Board of Health. He said the people of Belgium had no idea what boards of health had done for England, and that by their means the mortality in nearly 200 towns in England had been diminished about 50 per cent. But he did not stop there, but went on to state that the fecundity of the land had by the same means been quadrupled. That was consolation to the country gentlemen. Now, with regard to the present continuance Bill, he (Mr. Duncombe) objected to the continuance of the Board of Health for six months, and if economy was to be effected by the Bill he asked, why should not the salaries of the Board of Health be reduced at once? The Board was expensive and totally useless, and should be done away with. As for its superintendence in respect to the supply of water in certain towns, the Home Department or Board of Works might undertake that work.
  VISCOUNT EBRINGTONdefended the administration of the Board of Health, contending that the sanitary condition of the great towns had materially improved since the passing of the Public Health Act. According to the testimony of all ministers of religion dirt, disease, and crime, were concurrent, and the Public Health Act was passed because many towns enjoying the benefits of the Municipal Reform Act were, nevertheless, in an unsatisfactory state. A number of those towns subsequently availed themselves of the provisions of the Act. Having devoted many Years of his life to the promotion of sanitary reform, and believing it to be connected with the moral and religious improvement of the people, he could not avoid expressing a hope that the House would not abandon
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  the principle of legislation which it had adopted on this subject.
  SIR WALTER FARQUHARsaid, he would withdraw all further opposition to the Bill if the right hon. Gentleman would merely pass a continuance Act till next September.
  MR. HENLEYwould prefer to see the Board of Health remaining where it was until the whole subject should be debated next Session, and the economy proposed to be carried out could still be effected by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cowper) undertaking in the meanwhile duties with which he was familiar connected with that Board.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out" stand part of the Question.
  The House divided:—Ayes 98; Noes 73: Majority 25.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  House in Committee.
  Clause 1 (Provides for the transfer of the Board to the Committee of Council on Education).
  SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, he believed the Government must feel that it would be impossible for them to pass the Bill with that provision in the course of the present Session. He hoped they would not persevere with the clause, and he moved its omission.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he understood that the House had on the division which had just taken place decided in favour of the clause. That was, in reality, the only point in dispute when they had divided.
  MR. SPOONERsaid the question was, whether they should continue the Board at an expense of £3,000 a year, or transfer it to the Privy Council without that cost for a definite and specified period.
  MR. AYRTONdid not think Members were under the impression that in voting in the last division they were pronouncing a deliberate opinion on the point now raised. It was necessary the House should express an opinion upon it, and he would therefore press for a division upon the clause.
  MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, he gave his vote on the ground that there should be no legislation on the subject in the present Session. The principle of transferring these powers to the Privy Council was quite new, and ought not to be carried by a side-wind. The tenacity with which the Government stuck to the Privy Council ought to excite the jealousy of the Committee.
  MR. SPOONERsaid, that a simple continuance Bill would involve a President, while the business would be done at the Privy Council by an additional clerk. No principle was involved, as next year they might make permanent arrangements.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that as to the point of economy any Government officer might fill the office of President ad interim till a permanent arrangement could be made.
  MR. TATTON EGERTONwished to know if the principle was to be a temporary or a permanent one?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he did not intend that the Committee, in assenting to this clause, should pledge itself to the principle that the powers of the Act of 1848 should be given to the Privy Council. If, however, it was the general opinion of the Committee that, during the interval which should elapse before nest September, those powers should not be transferred to the Privy Council, he would acquiesce in that opinion, and move that the Chairman do now leave the chair with the view of making such alterations in the Bill as would carry out the wish of the House.
  MR. T. DUNCOMBEinquired whether the Government intended that the duties of the President of the Board of Health should be performed by the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education?
  SIR WILLIAM HEATHCOTEsaid, that if the change was not to be a permanent one he could not think it would be worth while to introduce it in a mere continuance Bill.
  SIR GEORE GREYsaid, that, as it seemed to be the general wish of the House, he would be prepared to make this a continuance Bill, with only the understanding that without any transference of the Board its duties were to be discharged by his right hon. Friend (Mr. Cowper), and that a saving was to be effected in that way for the public. In order to carry out that arrangement he should move that the Chairman should then leave the chair.
  House resumed. [No Report.]

  GREAT YARMOUTH ELECTION.
  The EARL of MARCH, from the Select Committee appointed to try and determine the matter of the Petition complaining of an undue Election and Return for the Borough of Great Yarmouth, informed the House, that Charles Woolfen had this day been guilty of prevarication and other misbehaviour in giving his evidence before the
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  Committee; and that he had, by direction of the Committee, by Warrant under his hand, committed the said Charles Woolfen to the custody of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House, to await the pleasure of this House.
  Ordered,
  That Charles Woolfen be for his said offence committed to Her Majesty's Gaol of Newgate till this House make further Order in his case, and that Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrants accordingly.

THE METROPOLITAN SEWERAGE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. RIDLEYsaid, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he can inform the House if there is any probability of steps being taken for carrying out the provisions of the Metropolis Act, by which it is determined that the river Thames shall be freed from the sewerage of the Metropolis. He had been informed that day that some of the Officers of the House were so affected in their health by the effluvia of the Thames that it was difficult for them to perform their duties.
  MR. C. S. BUTLERsaid, he also wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works the following questions:—When the question of the Main Drainage of the Metropolis was referred to the professional gentlemen appointed by him to consider the subject, Whether the referees are likely to make their Report before the close of the present Session? What course the First Commissioner proposes to take after he shall receive such Report, so that no delay may occur in the commencement of the works?
  SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, he was quite aware of the circumstances to which his hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne (Mr. Ridley) had referred. Perhaps he might be permitted to state that by the Metropolis Act of 1855 it was provided that large intercepting sewers should be made for the purpose of diverting the sewage from the Thames. It was also provided under that Act, that those sewers should be constructed by the Metropolitan Board of Works, but that before any works were commenced the plans should be submitted to the First Commissioner of Works for his approval. Now he could assure the House that so far as he was concerned not a single day had been lost in reference to this important matter. The plans were sent to him on the eve of the Christmas holidays, on the

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  22nd of last December, and on the 29th, seven days after, he referred them to the Engineers who had them under their consideration. That was his answer to the first question of his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Butler). With regard to the second question, namely, whether the referees were likely to make their Report before the close of the present Session, he was happy to inform his hon. Friend that he had seen one of the referees that day and he believed their Report would be delivered to him on Thursday, or at all events before Saturday next. To the question what course he should take after he had received the Report, his reply was that he should forward a copy of it to the Metropolitan Board of Works; and it might be considered also convenient for him to lay a copy of it on the table of the House. He now came to the question put to him by his hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne (Mr. Ridley). All he could say was, that the matter referred to rested entirely with the Metropolitan Board of Works. He had already shown the House that there had been no delay on his part, and all he could add was, that the moment he received the Report he would forward a copy to the Metropolitan Board, who would, he had no doubt, give it due consideration.

THE COLONY OF MORETON BAY.

  QUESTION.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies a question with respect to the boundary of the proposed new colony of Moreton Bay. He had understood the right hon. Gentleman to state on a former occasion, that the boundary line would be between the twenty-fifth and twenty sixth degrees of south latitude, and he would now beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it was not a mistake, in order that, if it were, it might be corrected before the next mail went out to Australia.
  Mr. LABOUCHEREsaid, he was much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for giving him an opportunity of setting himself right on this subject. In answer to a question which was put to him in reference to the proposed boundary line of the colony of Moreton Bay, he was represented to have stated that it would be between the twenty-fifth and twenty-sixth degrees of south latitude; what he meant to say was, that the boundary line would lie between the
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  twenty-eighth and twenty-ninth degrees of south latitude.

CONVEYANCE OF MAILS BY RAILWAY BILL.

  WITHDRAWAL OF BILL.
  MR. BULLERsaid, he wished to inquire whether the Conveyance of Mails by Railway Bill would come on for discussion that night, seeing that it was on the Order of the day?
  MR. WILSONsaid, it might be convenient to many hon. Members that he should state what course the Government intended to pursue with regard to this Bill. The subject to which this Bill related was one of great importance, and one with regard to which Committees had at various periods made Reports. Many of the existing arrangements with regard to the conveyance of mails had been found very inconvenient, and the Bill had been framed with the view of remedying those defects. The provisions of the Bill had been very much misunderstood, and he had been exceedingly anxious for the second reading of the Bill, because it would have afforded an opportunity of explaining to those who were interested in railways the real objects in view. However, in the present state of public business, it appeared almost impossible that there should be an opportunity for fair discussion, especially as the Mouse of Lords had determined to limit to a very early day the reception of Bills from that House; and he regretted that the more, because he believed that if the Bill were really understood, railway directors would be far more disposed to acquiesce in it than they were at present. Under those circumstances, he should move that the Order of the Day for the second reading be discharged from the paper; and he should introduce the Bill again early next Session.
  Order for Second reading read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.

THE METROPOLITAN SEWERAGE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HILDYARDsaid, he wished to know whether, along with the Report of the Referees, to which the right hon. Gentleman (Sir B. Hall) had referred, it was intended to furnish an analysis of the evidence which was submitted to them; he alluded especially to the evidence of Mr. Morewood?
  SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, he understood that there was a large Appendix to the Report, which would not be ready on Saturday. He should lay before the House all that he received.

THE LITURGY.
  POSTPONEMENT OF MOTION.
  LORD ROBERT GROSVENOR(who rose under manifest indisposition) said, in adverting to a Motion of which he had given notice, in reference to a modification of the Liturgy of the Church of England, that up to a late hour on the afternoon of the previous day, he entertained a confident expectation of being able to bring it forward. But since that time, he had had an attack of indisposition, which rendered it impossible for him to perform the duty of introducing the Motion in a satisfactory manner. He knew it would be a great disappointment to a vast number of persons, who took a deep interest in the question, that the Motion should be postponed; but it would have been necessary for him to trespass at considerable length on the time of the House in bringing forward that Motion, and he had too much respect for that House, as well as for those persons who did him the honour to place their confidence in him, to; attempt that for the due performance of which he was physically incapacitated. It would, consequently, be impossible for him to bring forward the Motion during the present Session, and he would, therefore, postpone it till the next.

  MILITARY INSTRUCTION.—RESOLUTION.
  SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid that he rose, pursuant to notice, to bring forward his Resolution suggesting a higher standard of professional instruction and a more complete provision for it than has heretofore obtained for Officers in the Army, and especially the Staff. The subject was one to which public attention had been directed within the last few years by a remarkable concurrence of circumstances, among which were the reports of Committees of that House, a very important one especially drawn up by the Commissioners appointed by the Secretary for War, and the very able speech made in that House last Session by the right hon. Gentleman the member for South Wilts (Mr. Sidney Herbert), in the opinions of which he fully concurred. He ventured to think, however, that some other means were necessary for securing the object which that right
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  hon. Gentleman and himself had in view, and it was to that end that he had to submit to the House a Resolution which he trusted would meet with the sanction of the Government. He ventured to hope, indeed, that it would be received by the noble Lord at the head of the Government in the same spirit as the somewhat kindred proposal made recently by the noble Lord the Member for the West Riding (Viscount Goderich) with respect to the Civil Service had been entertained by him, believing, as he did, that its adoption, like that of the Motion of the noble Lord, would strengthen the hands of the Government. The country was now in the same condition, with respect to military education, that it was at the commencement of the long war with France. During the first five or six years of that contest, the nation met with many disasters, and in consequence the Government resolved to form a college for military instruction. Accordingly, in 1799, a staff college was first formed in this country, which rendered important services to the army of that day, and it produced many officers of eminence; but after the termination of the Peninsular War, the institution was reduced from year to year, until it ceased to possess the means of imparting instruction to anything like the extent which it had originally done. In 1832 all Parliamentary aid was withdrawn from the college, and he believed the Under-Secretary for War recently stated in the House that, during the last two or three years, scarcely a single officer had presented himself for admission into it. There might perhaps have been some half-dozen who had received instruction in the institution since that time, but he was not sure about that. At all events, he thought that was a state of things which ought not to exist. There was evidence, in reports which had been laid before both Houses of Parliament, that not only Austria, France, Prussia, and other military nations had long applied their attention and devoted funds to this object, but even the United States, finding in 1814 that their officers were singularly wanting in knowledge, and that they had probably suffered some defeats in consequence, established a military school at West Point on a very extensive scale, and he believed that West Point College was established on the model, as near as possible, of the Ecole Polytechnique of France, though perhaps not so exclusively military in its object. As another instance of the manner in which this subject was viewed

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  by those competent to judge, he would quote the high authority of Frederick the Great, in whose memoirs, after the Seven Years' War, he found this passage:—
  "The army had made numerous campaigns, but the Quartermaster-General was often in want of good officers for his department. The King wished to form a corps of such officers, and selected twelve individuals, who already possessed some slight acquaintance with engineer duties, for the purpose of instructing them himself. With this view they were made to sketch country, mark off camps, fortify villages, intrench heights, construct stockades, regulate columns of march, and, above all, to try the nature of marshes and the depths of streams themselves, that they might not be deceived by the negligence of others, and cause an army to depend upon the defensive support of a fordable river, or of a marsh which infantry could cross without being ankle deep."
  Sir Howard Douglas, one of the most competent, experienced, and scientific of our officers, gave most important evidence before the Committee of the House appointed to inquire into the subject; and Sir H. Douglas, Colonel Portlock, Colonel Adams, Colonel Addison, and Colonel Prosser, who were particularly engaged in military instruction, gave it as their opinion that the senior and junior departments of the college at Sandhurst were in a most unsatisfactory state, and required revision and reform. The pressure of undue influence, however well-intentioned the authorities might be, required that some preventive, such as had been adopted by continental Governments, should be established, and he ventured to think that none would be so efficient as the introduction of the competitive system of examination. The Committee stated in their Report—
  "The government of the college is vested in the Board of Commissioners. The official members, in addition to the Governor and Deputy-Governor of the college, are the Commander-in-Chief, the Secretary at War, the Master-General of the Ordnance, the Quartermaster-General, and Adjutant-General. It is obvious that the pressing and important duties which fall on these officers can leave them but little time to devote to the military college."
  There should be an independent Board to conduct the examinations. The Report mentioned that during the Peninsular War, when the general staff was very efficient, a great part of the Quartermaster-General's staff was composed of officers who had been educated at the senior department. The Report expressed an opinion that the present state of things in the senior department was unsatisfactory, and required revision and reform. The Committee
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  were of opinion that the transferring from the junior to the senior department a military staff officer was not sufficient. They saw no means of placing the senior department on an efficient footing unless Parliament was prepared to grant aid to that important object. They did not see the justice by which the cadet was called on to pay for the education of the staff officers. The cadets, or rather the families of the cadets, were called on to pay for the education of the staff-officers of the army, and that system continued for many years, if not to some extent to the present time. Many other remarks were made by these officers before the Committee; but he would not now go into them as he saw many of the members of the Committee present, who, he hoped, would follow him on this occasion. The House should recollect that during the last half century this country had been making great progress in every department, and in no respect greater progress than in education. The grants of public money had gone on increasing year by year, for national schools, factory schools, union workhouse schools, prison schools, &c., and he believed they now amounted to £500,000 sterling. There was a very handsome expenditure, amounting to £18,500 this year, for the education of non-commissioned officers and privates, and the total sums, if the children of soldiers were included, was £46,000. But for officers, and especially officers of the army, the sum was at the outside £1,300. It was an extraordinary contrast, and he believed had been remarked upon by the Secretary of State for War in another place. The righ hon Gentleman the Member for South Wiltshire estimated the expense of putting the education of the officers upon a reliable footing, by the appointment of boards of examination, at £5,000, and a Vote for that amount appeared in the Estimates; but unfortunately the right hon. Gentleman left office, and the Vote dropped out of the Estimates. The right hon. Gentleman, in a statement upon the subject last year, expressed some disappointment that the Government had come to no decision upon the subject, and that there was no item of the sort in the Estimates. Another year had brought only the same result, nor had the statement of the former Under Secretary for War in the first session of the present year been altogether satisfactory. These circumstances, he thought, afforded good reason

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  for wishing, at all events, if not to express distrust of the intentions of the Government, to stimulate the Government to use more promptitude and exertion. The first Resolution which he should submit was,—
  "That in the opinion of this House a higher standard of professional instruction and more complete provision for it than hitherto deemed requisite, ought to be established for the Commissioned Ranks of the Army, but especially for the Staff."
  He ventured to think that that was a proposition which was already concurred in not only by the House, but by the country. His Resolution then went on to state that the object which he had in view
  "Will be best promoted by recourse to competitive examination of Officers desiring to qualify themselves for the Staff, and by adopting the same principle, with such qualifications as may be necessary, in examination of candidates nominated by the Commander-in-Chief for commissions in the Cavalry and Infantry."
  No fair objection, he thought, could be taken to a certain degree of competitive examination in the case of candidates for staff appointments. Such an examination prevailed in our Universities, where the first men of the land—those who occupied leading positions in the two Houses of Parliament—had willingly exposed themselves to an ordeal similar to that which he proposed for officers seeking appointments on the Staff. Not only those who sought honours submitted to examinations, but those even who were desirous of obtaining the lowest degree, were obliged to pass an examination, and in many instances they were what University men called "plucked." Why officers in the army should shrink from the same ordeal he could not understand, and he saw no reason why the officers of the army should not run the risk of being "plucked." The officers of the navy were compelled to pass an examination not only for their first, but like wise for their second and third commissions. In 1849, as stated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Wilts in his admirable letter to Lord Hardinge of December, 1854, the Duke of Wellington issued an order declaring that for the future there should be an examination of officers for lieutenancies as well as for first commissions. Notwithstanding the authority of that great man, his proposition with respect to lieutenancies was never carried into effect; but, as there was a similar examination in foreign armies and in our own navy, it was to be hoped that it might be renewed. The officers of the
  574
  navy were undoubtedly more professional than the officers of the army, and therefore the latter need not be ashamed to imitate some of their proceedings. His Resolution next proceeded to urge the expediency of "preserving the present system of admission of cadets for the Ordnance Corps." He would not presume to pass any censure upon the officers of the army, and would even avoid quoting the statements of the Duke of Wellington, although they were well known to be very strong, both against the character of our private soldiers and the efficiency of our officers. The blame lay, not with the officers, but with the Government, which did not provide the officers with due opportunities for acquiring that information which it was desirable they should possess in order to the satisfactory discharge of their duties. Some of the greatest authorities who had written upon the Peninsular sieges had declared that the principal drawback experienced in carrying on those operations arose from an entire want of even rudimentary knowledge on the part of our officers, particularly referring to the ignorance of the officers and men of the line of the elementary knowledge necessary for assisting as working parties. That was not the fault of the officers, but was owing to the combined neglect and favouritism which had so long prevailed in the army. The present system of admission of cadets for the Ordinance corps was introduced by the Duke of Newcastle, and had been followed by Lord Panmure. It was an open competitive system, and he believed had been found to work well. He was anxious that it should be preserved, and trusted that there was no truth in the report which had reached him that there was some inclination in certain quarters to alter it. He could not understand why such a step should be thought of. The young persons who had come forward from the various colleges and schools throughout the country had been everything that could be desired. The subjects of examination were advertised by the Secretary for War, and it was open to any one, from any public school or college, or any profession in civil life, to compete. The number of candidates was considerable—between 100 and 200—and those who showed most proficiency were selected for the commissions. With respect to their social position, he might state that they came from the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, Dublin, and Edinburgh; from the Colleges of Aberdeen, London, Brigh-

  575
  ton, Belfast, Cork, Galway, and Chester; from Rugby, Harrow, and Eton; and from the most considerable proprietary chartered and endowed schools throughout the country. What right, he asked, had any one to assume that these young gentlemen were not equal in every respect to those who, if the former system had been continued, would have been nominated by the Master General of the Ordinance under private and political influence? He did not ask the House to rest only on his own statements on the subject; he would bring authority also to bear on it. Mr. Peel, the late Under Secretary for War—a gentleman with whom he had not always had the happiness of agreeing—stated on the 5th of June last year that the existing plan had been found to answer well; that the successful candidates had proved to be men of superior education; that they were gentlemen and officers in every sense of the term, and worthy to hold the commissions they had won for themselves. He had heard that some of the authorities at Woolwich were rather disposed to discredit and depreciate those officers, and it was, perhaps, natural that they should be so, because the new system interfered with that patronage which they might otherwise have exercised; but as regarded the army there could be no ground of complaint. In support of the statement which he had made in reference to the social position of those who went up for examination in this corps, he would state the social rank of those who had gone up from the University of Dublin. Of these persons, ten were sons of clergymen, four were sons of barristers, three sons of officers in the army, two sons of landowners, three sons of bankers, and five others. There was no ground whatever, therefore, for depreciatory remarks with respect to their social position. A high authority—he believed Colonel Smythe, one of the Commissioners sent to inquire into the state of the colleges abroad—had stated that
  "The young men who have obtained provisional commissions have surprised the authorities by the extraordinary progress which they have made in acquiring a knowledge of the specialties of their profession, while their bearing and conduct have been most exemplary."
  There were other passages which he could read in support of his views, but he thought he had stated enough to justify him in expressing a hope that the present system of examination for the Ordnance Corps would not be hastily abandoned. A few
  576
  weeks since thirty examinations for these probationary cadetships were advertised, and no less than 120 candidates from the various schools and colleges of the country presented themselves for examination— double the number that ever appeared before. He hoped, therefore, most earnestly, that for the present, at least, an ample trial would be given to this system. It was very important that men of high talent should be attracted into our scientific corps. One of those corps, the Engineers, at present laboured under a considerable disadvantage, from the circumstance of some of its best men being at present rather frequently withdrawn from it to serve in civil employment. It was no doubt convenient to the Government to obtain the services of those officers, but it led to a similar complaint with that made as to the Indian army, that so many of its officers were withdrawn, from military duties for civil or staff service. He would desire, for many reasons, that officers of Engineers should be employed as exclusively as practicable upon military duties. The next portion of his Resolution asked for "assured encouragement for proficiency and general fitness for advancement." He thought that promotion should be made to attend upon proficiency in study and testimonies of general ability; that for particular proficiency an appointment on the Staff, or, if possible, a step in promotion should be the reward, as was the case in the French army. Those, however, were matters of detail, with which his Resolutions did not deal; but he could not avoid expressing a desire that there should be a certain and reliable encouragement held out for proficiency and intellectual acquirements. He might he told, indeed, that there were other qualities besides those of intellectual knowledge required from officers of the army, and he quite admitted it. He quite believed, and was fully prepared to maintain, that no school could be so efficient as that of war in instructing officers in the duties of their profession, and in time of war those officers who had proved themselves to be fitted for the Staff would be the best of all officers; but in time of peace it was necessary to take the next best test. The last proposition which he had to make was the appointment of "Commissioners, or a Council of Military and Civilian Members," to carry out the objects he had ventured to propose. He had the highest opinion of the officers who composed the present board, but at the same time he did not think that

  577
  any body of comparatively subordinate officers could be completely unbiased and independent while the Commander in Chief sat at their head. Moreover, the Report of the Committee of that House had stated, as before observed, their opinion that officers holding high positions at the Horse Guards had not sufficient opportunity for paying due attention to military educational subjects. He wished to add two civilians to the Board or Council persons skilled in examination, to assist the Military officers in examining the candidates. He would at present abstain from submitting any further propositions and feared he had already trespassed too long on the attention of the House. He should only then add that our army was a very small one, and yet had to perform duties more arduous than any other army in the world. There were indeed some old ad captandum objections still raised about a standing army, wholly unsuited to the present relative military power of other nations but he believed if we had not some proportionate standing army the country would soon cease to stand at all, and would fall under the power of some foreign State. Again, it had been said that we were a purely naval nation, and not a military nation; but when he glanced at the map of the world and saw how many places we had conquered or occupied, and what vast territories the British army was called upon to defend and guard, he could not reconcile it with common sense to hold that we were not a military nation. If they looked back to the history of our army they would find some of the greatest achievements ever performed had been gained by our army. But, as it was small, it was absolutely necessary to make it as efficient as possible; and if steps were taken to do justice to all officers by guarding as much as possible against favouritism, and by making arrangements to afford the highest amount of instruction to all classes of the army, then he thought that our army, small as it was, would be found adequate to its duties and invincible by any other. The hon. and gallant Member concluded by moving—
  "That in the opinion of this House a higher standard of professional instruction and more complete provision for it than hitherto deemed requisite ought to be established for the Commissioned Ranks of the Army, but especially for the Staff; that this will be the best promoted by recourse to competitive examination of Officers desiring to qualify themselves for the Staff, by adopting the same principle with such qualification
  578
  as may be necessary in examination of candidates nominated by the Commander in Chief for Commissions in the Cavalry and Infantry, by preserving the present system of admission of Cadets for the Ordinance Corps, by assured encouragements for proficiency and general fitness for advancement, and by appointment of Commissioners, or a Council of Military and Civilian Members, empowered to direct the measures for accomplishing these objects."
  SIR FREDERICK SMITHsaid, it was no doubt desirable that a considerable amount of special instruction and general information should be given to officers, but he was not one of those who considered theoretical instruction equally valuable as practical instruction. He thought that most persons who entered the army brought with them a considerable amount of general instruction. He admitted that the knowledge of two foreign languages was necessary for an officer, but he did not think a high degree of mathematical attainments was essential either for officers of the staff or of the army at large; neither did he consider the amount of mathematical knowledge now required from officers in the special corps to be insufficiently high. Very few officers had occasion to bring into any practical use the attainments in mathematics they acquired at the Academy. He believed that for officers of the line and the staff a knowledge of field fortifications was necessary; they should be able to trace a front of fortification, and when they saw an attack laid down they ought to be able to comprehend the objects of it. Practically he thought they ought to be instructed in the art of making trenches, fascines, and gabions, of making bridges with casks and boats, and other operations which might become necessary at any time. But that would not require the high standard of attainments which the hon. and gallant General appeared to desire. It had been a matter of discussion whether the officers of the army generally and officers of the special corps should not be instructed at one establishment, and he believed that to be a most desirable arrangement. The plan had been tried at the East India Company's college at Addiscombe, and had been found to answer exceedingly well. Formerly it vas not easy to carry out a scheme of this kind, but now that the whole patronage of the army rested with the Secretary for War, he saw no reason why it should not be resorted to. Every officer of the line should have a knowledge of the power of the musket and of artillery. It was

  579
  easily attained, and officers of the line, should be allowed to go to Woolwich for that purpose. Then, as regarded officers of the staff, he thought it was quite essential that they should be good topographical draughtsmen; able to draw with ease, accuracy, and rapidity. The more staff officers were educated the better; but in selecting men for the staff they must go beyond mere education, and have regard to physical considerations. They must be men of robust constitutions, able to endure fatigue and to "rough it" when not in quarters, for they were often not so comfortably placed as the officers of the line. The staff officer should also be a man of quick sight, a good horseman, and a good swordsman. He required to be a good swordsman, for he might not unfrequently have to defend himself with his single arm. A son of Lord Raglan, when in action in India, had to defend himself against five or six of the enemy, who surrounded him, and cut his way through them with his sword in safety, and his case was by no means singular. He thought it was of the greatest importance that the officers of the army should receive instructions of a practical kind, and that their military education should not be merely theoretical. A knowledge of modern languages, such as French and German, was of great consequence, and ought also to form part of the education of every officer; but he did not see that much benefit would accrue to the service from high classical or mathematical attainments in the officers.
  GENERAL WINDHAMsaid, he understood the hon. and gallant Member for Westminster was in favour of competitive examinations, not only for officers of the Staff and the special corps, but for commissions in the general service. But he thought that in giving commissions much more ought to be considered than mere education. He would suppose that two youths were brought to be examined—one brave, generous, good-humoured, full of good sense and zeal—in short, a fine fellow, and just the man they wanted for an officer, but, to complete the picture, somewhat idle, and therefore no great scholar; the other a young man of high attainments as a scholar, but possessing none of the qualities of the first. The instant these two men came before the Board of Examiners they would take the one that had been educated, and leave the other entirely out of the question.
  580
  Now, surely the examination should extend a little beyond ascertaining the fact whether a man could speak French or not. He was convinced that these examinations were excellent in so far as discovering the intellectual qualifications of candidates, which would be of no avail unless the candidates were good men in other respects; and therefore he did not think examinations were the best means of getting the best men for the first admission into the service. With regard to the staff it would be very different. Officers wishing to qualify themselves for the staff would be known. Having been long in the service—perhaps seven years—there would exist the means of knowing what sort of men they were, and they could be put through a good stringent examination with advantage. He must honestly say that a stringent examination in the first instance, and subsequent encouragement to the officer to improve himself, would be the best plan. But he thought that there was a great deal more fuss about education in the army than was necessary. He had observed in the field that some of those who were possessed of great attainments turned out to be the worst officers. He firmly believed that the officers of the English army were quite as well educated as those of the French army, and that in the part of the service in which we were said to be most deficient—the staff—the deficiency was more owing to want of practice than to the want of education. Our staff was not well organized, and he thought the Government would act wisely if they copied the French system, which was established by one of their most eminent Generals, Gouvion St. Cyr, during the Empire. The proper plan would be to have a chief of the staff with efficient subordinates, but with undivided authority. In the Crimean campaign a great error was committed in having the Chief of the Staff and the Quartermaster General independent of each other. An independent Quartermaster General and an independent Chief of the Staff could not co-exist without injury to the service. He hoped the Government would give the Chief of the Staff proper officers attached to that staff, and not make arrangements of a mixed kind which were neither one thing nor another. But with regard to military education, one great advantage which he hoped would arise from it was, that it would lead the people of this country to

  581
  a general system of military organization. This was not the time to discuss such a question, but he could not help saying that what we wanted was not such a general military organization as fitted the Continent, but such a rational system as became a free country. What we wanted was a regular militia, and reserves volunteering from that militia, which would form a constant source of supply of men for the army. Connected with this was the question of national defence and other considerations of great importance. If we were to go on as we had hitherto done, we must be always too late—for this reason, that the Government on an emergency had to come down to the House to ask for money to get men, when the men ought to be ready to their hands. They never asked for money until they were in pressing need of the men. No doubt there were many more difficulties in this subject, and many more things to be considered than appeared at first sight. For instance, there was the number of the militia to be taken into consideration, the manner in which it was to be raised, and its connection with the army—whether it should be in immediate connection, or, as at present, in semi-antagonism. Then, too, there was the question of the staff, of military education generally, and, above all, of the relation which ought to exist between the duties of the Minister of War and the Commander in Chief. The noble Lord at the head of the Government, of all men in the empire, was by his experience, his abilities, and his popularity, best fitted to carry out some rational system of military organization, and if he would undertake and complete that task, he would deserve the gratitude of the country.
  SIR WILLIAM WILLIAMScould assure the gallant General the Member for Westminster that he was under a misapprehension in supposing that there was any favouritism shown in the examinations for commissions by which unfit persons were admitted into the service. The proportion of those who came forward and were rejected was between one-fourth and one-third of the whole number of candidates. He had sent a cousin of his own down to Sandhurst, not very long ago, to be examined for a commission, and, without wishing any favouritism to be shown to him, he wrote to Sir Harry Jones, asking him to give him that encouragement which a youth would stand in need of at such a
  582
  time. In the evening, however, he had the mortification of getting a letter to tell him that his cousin had been rejected. He prepared himself again, and went up for re-examination; but, more through fear probably than want of attainments, he again failed. He had had under his command officers who had passed through Woolwich, and those who, owing to the exigencies of the service, had been admitted by competitive examination, without going through that institution, and, though the zeal and good conduct of these latter had been all above praise, yet, owing to the want of a military training, they were not equal to those who had passed through Woolwich;—they might have been fit for senior wranglers, but they had yet to learn to be soldiers. Those who had the charge of Woolwich laboured under the mistake of bringing the pupils in at too advanced an age, which had the effect of making most of the officers in the scientific corps old men before they could attain to high command. He was as strong an advocate of competitive examination in the line and in the two scientific corps as any one; but he hoped that the military authorities would continue to retain the right of nomination. It would be a very dangerous experiment for them to relinquish that right. He wished, too, to see a real bonâ fide staff corps established. When addressing the House on a former occasion on this subject, he had expressed his regret at the abolition of the old corps of draughtsmen and surveyors, by which step the army had been deprived of that which was necessary for its efficiency, and he hoped to see the day when those corps would be revived. The French had a beautiful staff corps, and their system ought to be adopted by us. The questions of promotion by purchase and military education were very intimately connected. Without purchase there would be favouritism and affection. He had seen more regiments of the line than most officers, and he had always remarked in what an extraordinary manner the system of purchase kept up the youthfulness of these regiments by constantly supplying young officers full of energy and fit to lead their men. In the scientific corps, where there was no purchase, the case was different. At forty years of age he himself was only a second captain in the Artillery. No doubt, under the purchase system, there was a certain amount of vexation experienced when one man purchased over another; but that was nothing to the heart

  583
  burning which was occasioned when an officer was put over another on account of some pretended superiority of talent or intellectual attainments. Although, therefore, there might be some cases of hardship, he did not wish to see the system of purchase abolished. During the debate of the previous evening, the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control had spoken of the wants of that proper communication between the officer and the sepoy, which perhaps had occasioned a great deal of the misery we now deplored, and had asked how that evil could be remedied. The remedy which he (Sir W. Williams) would recommend would be, not to give a single commission in a Native regiment without a previous examination in the Indian languages—not to give a lieutenancy to an ensign until he had made considerable progress in the Native languages, and to give no man his company until he was a perfect master of the Hindostance.
  MR. PALKsaid, he had hoped that the gallant General (Sir De Lacy Evans) would have taken a broader view of the subject, that he would have given the House the benefit of his great experience and practical knowledge, that he would have shown the evil of the present system of promotion both in the staff and in the line, and that he would have offered some suggestions for improving the organization of the army. He had expected the gallant General to have instanced the case of other professions, and to have shown that in them every one had to undergo a competitive examination at college or elsewhere. He had expected him to have drawn from those premises the fact that men of vast knowledge and great acquirements, who had attained the highest and proudest positions in the State, had risen from the humbler classes—affording in their own persons a proof that education would elicit the best attributes of man, and that it was not to birth alone that we could trust for a due performance of the duties that were required of us. The gallant General might have instanced the case of our own army, essentially aristocratic—much more so than any army on the Continent—in which few men had risen from the ranks to high positions. He had thought that the gallant officer would have referred to the gallantry of our officers—the steadiness and forbearance in times of difficulty of our men; and that he would have shown that that was owing to the aristocratic element which so
  584
  strongly impregnated our armies, and which sent out young men proud of their name, of their family, and of their country, to gain fresh honours and add new laurels to our fame. He had thought that the gallant General might have gone on and have proposed, without bringing the two classes into collision, a test of education which should insure to all who passed an examination a commission in the army; and that he might have said that, great and glorious as the deeds of our army had been, the time had come when more liberal ideas were prevalent, and when it was essential for the benefit of the country that the organization of the army should be improved by more comprehensive and extended views. The first step towards such improvement would be to show to young men that energy and talent would insure advancement, and that, if they did their duty well and gallantly, and at the same time acquired those scientific attainments which were essential to their position, whether they had the good luck to be the friends of the Government or not, their talent and energy would be recognized, and their promotion would be as certain as if they were nephews of the Secretary of State for War. At present such unfortunately was not the case, as too many instances would prove. He held in his hand, for example, a letter signed by a gallant officer who had entered the army many years ago, and whose services, perhaps, had long been forgotten. That officer served seven years in the Artillery, and passed through all the courses of drill and practical instruction at Woolwich several times. In the spring of 1825 he accepted the offer of the Duke of York to volunteer into the line, on the promise that everything that could properly be done for the advancement of those who so volunteered should be done. He went through a long period of service. In 1831 he was appointed by Lord Clare assistant and secretary to the mission proceeding to Scinde. Having been upwards of sixteen years a subaltern he purchased his rank as captain, and at length, having embarked all his fortune in the service, and when it was too late to think of devoting himself to any other profession, he was compelled, for the sake of his family, to sell his commission. He then addressed a letter to Lord Panmure, from whom he received die following reply:—
  "War-office, June 24.
  "SIR,—I am directed by Lord Panmure to acknowledge the receipt of your letter, containing

  585
  a statement of your past services, which he has perused with great interest; and in reply I am directed to state that, while Lord Panmure most sincerely sympathizes with you in your misfortunes, his Lordship deeply regrets it is not in his power to remedy complaints of such long standing, or to reverse acts which you have characterized in such strong language.
  "I have the honour to be, &c.,
  "J. CROOMES, Assistant-Secretary."
  In that instance, therefore, because the complaints were of long standing, there was no remedy for that gallant officer. But the system which existed then existed still, and he would submit to the House another instance which happened very recently. It was the case of an officer who during the last war, possessing high military attainments, and being a first-rate linguist, distinguished himself in the field, but having no military interest, at last, with the greatest difficulty, succeeded in obtaining a staff appointment, and, proving himself highly efficient in organization and detail, was intrusted with a high responsibility, and to the command of a brigade, which he performed with the greatest credit, winning the universal approbation of those who bore witness to the extreme judgment and ability he displayed, and for which he received the highest testimonials. That officer was at this moment a subaltern in the army. He was brought up for the service, for which he was specially educated. He was a young man of great ability, and was rather an extraordinary linguist, for he spoke French, Spanish, German, Italian, Turkish and Russian, with a certain knowledge of Arabic, modern Greek, and Persian. After the fire at Varna, he was sent to Bulgaria to collect stores for the commissariat; and in consequence of his knowledge of the language and of his zeal, he, at a time when the army was in the greatest difficulties, sent down every day thirty waggon-loads of forage. He (Mr. Palk) was not permitted to go very much into the case, for the officer of whom he was speaking would be very much shocked if his name or services were made public; but he was satisfied that no officer ever distinguished himself more for personal gallantry than this young man. General Pennefather, in a testimonial to which he was permitted to refer, spoke highly of his services in connection with the Italian Legion; and yet, in spite of the services he had rendered in the Crimea, in spite of the approbation expressed with regard to his conduct, this young officer was at the present moment
  586
  doing duty as a subaltern. He had been educated for the army, was skilled in all the various languages which a soldier might require to know, had distinguished himself as much as any man in the service, but he had neither political nor family interest; and it was to be feared that, like the gentleman whose case had previously been referred to, after faithfully serving his Queen and country, he might receive from the War Office, at the end of his days, such a letter as that of Lord Panmure's. It was for this reason that he (Mr. Palk), as one who had had the honour of holding a commission in Her Majesty's service, and as an independent Member of this House, wished to ask whether the army was in such a satisfactory state as would induce young men of talent and energy to seek for that advancement in it which, without interest, seemed denied to them? And yet this country required in the army men of the highest talent. It would no longer do to select officers from the small circle of those highly connected. It was necessary that our men and officers should be picked from the whole of the British nation. What he would suggest was, that in place of Resolutions which, after all, meant but little and carried but little weight with them, the hon. and gallant General (Sir De L. Evans), and others who like him had passed a long life in the service of their country, should bring forward some plan by which men who adopted the profession of arms might be assured that talent, industry, and perseverance would reap for them that reward which seemed at present only to be obtained by patronage. He had been favoured with a pamphlet which denied the statement often made that the army of this country had been ruined by the parsimony of the House of Commons. In this pamphlet the cost of the Austrian and the English armies were contrasted, by which it appeared that "for the outlay of £9,713,974 we kept on foot an effective force of 120,000 men, whereas this sum would have sufficed in Austria to pay and maintain 540,000 men on the peace establishment." He could not, therefore, quite give his adherence to the statement that the parsimony of the House of Commons had destroyed or injured the army. It had been the long mismanagement which had injured the army; and he thought that, if the matter could be investigated, it would be found that our system, as compared with that of foreign countries, was more expensive and

  587
  by no means so efficient. What he contended was, that if they were going to change their system of promotion in the army, they ought not to proceed by Resolution, but to lay down some practical plan, and come to Parliament for the means to carry it out; for he did not think that small palliatives for evils, if they were evils, were worthy of this House or of the country.
  SIR JOHN RAMSDENsaid, that it was impossible not to agree with the spirit of the observations addressed to the House by the hon. and gallant Member for Westminster. The opinion that sufficient attention had not been paid to the education of the officers of the army was universally entertained; and to use the words of the hon. and gallant Member's Resolution, he (Sir J. Ramsden) quite concurred with him in thinking "that a higher standard of professional instruction, and more complete provision for it than hitherto had been deemed requisite, ought to be established for the commissioned ranks of the army, but especially for the staff." On that point, indeed, there was, he conceived, no difference of opinion. To effect that object was a duty which they owed to the country, whose interests depended so largely upon the efficiency of its army—to the soldiers, whose gallantry and selfdevotion entitled them to have for their commanders the ablest and best men that could be found; and to the officers themselves, who, in every heroic and glorious attribute which could adorn the character of a soldier, had equalled, if they had not surpassed, those of every other nation. [Hear, hear!] Government were aware of the arduous nature of the task that devolved upon them, and accepted the responsibility of making the necessary provision. To this end they had been for some time engaged in the preparation of a scheme of military education, which they trusted, when it was submitted to Parliament, would receive the approbation of the House, and meet the exigencies of the case. On a previous occasion he had stated, in reply to a question, that it was intended to establish a Council of Military Education. The first duty that Council would have to perform would be to arrange a scheme of examination to be gone through by the gentlemen nominated by the Commander in Chief, as candidates for first Commissions; secondly, it would have to arrange the course of examination to be undergone by officers after receiving their appointment, as the test of qualification
  588
  for promotion; and, thirdly, to determine the qualifications which should be required as the test of eligibility for appointments on the Staff. Their Report on the first subject had been prepared, and he was sorry it had not been in his power to lay it on the table of the House before this discussion took place; but it would be in the hands of Members in the course of the following day. He would, however, proceed to state its general recommendations. In the first place, it was proposed that all candidates nominated by the Commander in Chief should undergo an examination before they were appointed. That was in fact the present system; but it was proposed to make that examination much more severe than it now was. It was proposed that the examinations should be held quarterly, in London, under the direction of the Council of Military Education, and conducted by military and civil examiners, who were to be recommended annually by the Council to the Commander in Chief, who would make the appointments subject to the concurrence of the Secretary of State. To this annual appointment of the examiners he attached great value, as affording the best guarantee against any lowering of the standard of requirements which might be apprehended if the examinations were conducted by a permanent body of examiners. The new system it was intended should come into operation in January, 1858. There would be also an examination by a medical board as to the physical qualifications of the candidates for the service, and a certificate would have to be produced, signed by a minister of religion of the denomination to which the candidate might belong, stating that he had been properly instructed in the principles of religion; and also a certificate as to his general moral conduct during the two preceding years. The subjects of the examination would be divided into two classes—compulsory and optional. The compulsory class would include arithmetic, algebra, up to simple equations, the first four books of Euclid, a considerable knowledge of French, English composition, English history, and geography. The examination on these subjects would be compulsory, but they did not include the whole of the subjects of the examination. The candidate would be required to take up, in addition, a certain number of the optional subjects, which would, however, within the limits specified in the Report, be left to his own discretion.

  589
  The optional subjects would include the classical languages and the higher branches of mathematics, some modern language in addition to French, a more extended knowledge of geography, physical and experimental science, and a knowledge of drawing: a certain number of these branches the candidate would be required to take up in addition to the compulsory subjects: It would be observed that, in this scheme, no provision was made for requiring knowledge of a purely professional character. The Government were of opinio—and in this opinion they were supported by the highest authorities both in this country and on the Continent—that a good general liberal education was the best foundation for instruction in the professional duties of an officer. Another reason against insisting upon professional knowledge among candidates for first commissions, was, the importance which the Government attached to attracting to the army the largest number of young men educated at the great public schools. They were of opinion that the education given at the public schools of this country was—not only in an intellectual point of view, but also in the habits of discipline and subordination, in the healthy and manly tone of feeling which it encouraged—the best preparation for a military career. There was also a further consideration which weighed with them in abstaining from requiring any professional knowledge at the entrance examination, and that was a regard for the interests of the candidates themselves. Among the number who would undergo this examination, it was impossible that all should succeed; and, if professional knowledge were to be required, those who failed in the examination would suffer hardship, inasmuch as the time they had devoted to the acquirement of purely military science would have been thrown away if they were compelled afterwards to resort to any other profession. On these grounds it was not considered desirable, either for the interests of the candidate or for the efficiency of the service, that anything more than a Bound general education should be required as the test of fitness for appointment to a first commission. There was one point in the gallant General's resolution with which the Government could not concur, namely, that the principle of competition should be introduced into the examination for direct commissions. They considered that these appointments should be subject to a standard rather than a competitive examination;
  590
  but, at the same time, that effectual precautions should be taken to ensure the maintenance of the standard now to be established. As regards the examinations for the staff, they entirely agreed with the gallant General. He (Sir J. Ramsden) was not, as yet, in a position to state in detail the intentions of the Government on this subject; but this much had been decided—that a staff college was to be established, to which admission was to be gained by competitive examination, and that, at the termination of the course of study there, another competitive examination would be held, when the certificates which were to constitute the qualification for employment on the staff would be obtained. The gallant General wished to preserve the present system of admission to the Ordnance corps, which had been introduced by his noble Friend at the head of the War Department. On this point no conclusion had, as yet, been arrived at; but a plan was under the consideration of the Government for the amalgamation of Sandhurst and Woolwich into one military college, where all the preliminary military education of the country would be given. It was proposed that, after a certain time passed in this college, the pupils should be subjected to a competitive examination, and that admission to the Ordnance corps should be given in the order in which that examination was passed. It was also proposed that a certain number of free commissions in the line should be set apart for the students at this college, and that those who passed the final examination with the greatest success should be allowed the privilege of choosing a commission in whichever branch of the service they might prefer. It was therefore hoped that a certain proportion of the most promising cadets would be induced to choose commissions in the line, as well as in the Ordnance corps, and that by this means the best men would be distributed through all arms of the service alike. This part of the scheme was, however, not as yet matured, and he was, therefore, unable to state with any certainty what would be its provisions. The Government most fully concurred with the hon. and gallant Member for Westminster in his recommendations that "assured encouragements" should be given "for proficiency and general fitness for advancement," and they looked to the system of competitive examinations which it was proposed to apply to the certificates of qualification for the staff, as the means of giving effect to

  591
  this recommendation. The hon. and gallant Officer's fifth recommendation, that a Council of Military Education should be established, had already been adopted. After mature consideration, however, it had been determined that it should be composed exclusively of military members, and not of "military and civilian members," as recommended by the hon. and gallant Officer. It was thought better to look for the counterpoise to the exclusively military character of the Council in the appointment of civilians and military men together, to conduct the examinations. Though the Commander in Chief was ex officio President of the Council, he believed it was not his intention to take part in its deliberations; but the military education of officers of the army would be under his control, and the Council would report to him, so that everything relating to the Council would pass through his hands in the first instance, and would be submitted by him to the Minister for War. He could not say that the plan of the Government entirely agreed with that of the gallant Officer; but, although there might be a difference upon minor points, yet the gallant General would see that the Government were acting in the same spirit with himself, and he therefore hoped that he would not press upon the House the adoption of a Resolution, the effect of which would be to tie the hands of the Government, and to interfere with that freedom of action which it was indispensable they should possess, in order to enable them to carry out a comprehensive scheme on a subject of such great importance. Next Session the House would be in a position to consider the whole plan in all its details.
  COLONEL, NORTHsaid, he was extremely glad to find from the statement of his hon. Friend that the examination of candidates for commissions in the army was to be removed to London. He had himself endeavoured to raise that question before the Committee of investigation into the state of the army, and the answer which he had received was of the most futile character. The fact was, that at those Sandhurst examinations many of the candidates were "plucked" from sheer fright. The examination comprised a vast variety of subjects, but the whole were crowded into one day's examination between the hours of ten and four. Now, instead of only one day, two days ought to be allotted to the examination. As regarded the new scheme of examination on entry into the army, he must express his conviction that it was
  592
  calculated to deprive the service of a great number of very fine young men. Many a gallant fellow might not be able to master the four books of Euclid who was the fittest to lead men into action. He had no objection to officers being examined, but he was afraid they were about to make the examinations too high. With regard to the staff, he thought sufficient notice was not taken of the different duties of staff officers, according as they were attached to the Quartermaster General's or the Adjutant General's staff. Perhaps he might be here permitted to direct the attention of the noble Lord at the head of the Government to the condition of the militia. Undoubtedly the militia had been allowed to all but disappear. It was now five years since they had been embodied, and who did not remember the difficulties that had to be encountered in doing so? At present the militia could only be said to exist on paper; for as to their period of annual training, after deducting the time necessary for distributing their accoutrements and collecting them again, distributing them in billets, wet days and Sundays, and other deductions, their drill was in fact reduced to five or six days. A man could not be made a good and efficient soldier under a year or a year and a half's drill, and now that the country was being drained of its soldiers, it was most important to pay attention to the militia, and to make them as efficient a body as possible. It was really scattering money to the winds to persevere in the present system.
  LORD STANLEYsaid, he thought that the Under Secretary for war (Sir John Ramsden) had drawn a very wise and proper distinction between the qualifications which it was desirable that a person should possess for admission into the army and those which should entitle him to be placed upon the staff. He quite concurred in the opinion that there were many men who possessed but very little book-learning or very little capacity for acquiring it, who, although they might not in consequence be fitted to hold high commands, yet would be found in a subordicate position admirably adapted to lead a forlorn hope or to head a charge in the field. But although he, upon that account, deemed it inexpedient that competition should be made the only means of obtaining admission into the army, he was prepared to maintain that it was highly desirable that a certain proportion of those commissions which happened to be at the disposal of the Government should be open to competition on the part

  593
  of the community at large. He was also of opinion that, as at the Universities, scholarships and exhibitions were granted partly as marks of merit, partly as substantial incentives to industry, so it would be possible at a very small cost to the country to devise a system of military prizes which should be dispensed to the youths at our military colleges. There was another point to which, although it did not come within the terms of the Resolution of the hon. and gallant Member for Westminster, he might be allowed briefly to advert. The House was aware that in the navy it was the practice to establish a comparatively slight test of capacity in the case of an officer upon entrance, but to compel him to undergo a most severe examination some four or five years later, when he was about to be raised to the rank of lieutenant. Now, that he must confess he regarded as a plan most superior to the system which would make the efficiency of an officer depend entirely upon the acquirements which he happened to possess when he first obtained his commission. The knowledge to which a young man of the age of sixteen or seventeen might have attained was influenced quite as much by the circumstances of his position as by his personal character or capacity; but the knowledge of the same person at the age of twenty or twenty-one would depend in a great measure upon the use which he had made of his time, and upon his disposition to be industrious. He was, under these circumstances, strongly of opinion that it would be most advisable not to lead young men to believe that their education was finished the moment they entered the army, but, on the contrary, the necessity of acquiring further information as a means of contributing to their promotion at a subsequent period should be impressed upon their minds; and he thought that means might be devised whereby, in the absence of actual service, they might display their proficiency, even though it were only theoretical. Those various questions—namely, the establishment of a sufficient excluding test for unfit persons in the case of the first commission, the throwing open a certain number of commissions to competition, the granting of pecuniary rewards to those who might be found deserving of the distinction, and the institution of a separate examination for those officers who were about to be raised to the rank of captains or lieutenants—embraced, he believed,
  594
  all the educational means which, without resorting to pedantic strictness, could well be applied to the promotion of professional knowledge in the army at large. With respect to the staff the case was, in his opinion, of a character somewhat different, and he could not help expressing his satisfaction at the statement which had been made by the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War, to the effect that the new training colleges for the members of the staff were intended to be based upon the competitive principle, both with respect to the first admission to them and in regard to the honours and distinctions which might be subsequently attained. The objections which he had heard urged against the adoption of such a competitive system were, in the first place, that in consequence of the way in which our troops were scattered all over the world, it could not be carried into execution; and, in the second place, that, even if it could be carried into execution, it was a scheme to which it was undesirable to have recourse. It was not necessary to enter into the first question at present: at any rate there could be no difficulty with respect to those officers who were at home. And even in reference to those quartered at a distance, it must be borne in mind that the method of conducting examinations by printed papers of questions rendered local proximity or distance a matter of little importance. But when it was said that the system was not desirable, inasmuch as that whatever test of the intellectual advantages of a candidate it might afford, it presented no proof of his moral or physical qualifications, he must say that his opinion was that the competitive test, if fairly applied, afforded a much better proof of the moral than even of the intellectual qualifications of the candidate. Judging, for instance, from the analogy presented by the acquisition of academic honours, he did not believe that ability was the main requisite for success. A far more essential possession was industry, which was generally found to be the accompaniment in youth of a good moral character. He believed that a far greater number got on who possessed industry without talent, than those who had talent without industry. He might add, that the danger that men possessing great intellectual powers, but who were physically unfit for military service, might in great numbers obtain commissions under the operation of such a competitive system was not one which it was probable would prevail to

  595
  any great extent, inasmuch as, practically speaking, it would be found that men who were physically feeble would not enter the army, for the simple reason that they would have a much greater chance of success in some other profession. Taking men and things as they were, it appeared to him that competition furnished, at all events, a better test of a man's efficiency for the military service than either wealth, or political connection, or mere seniority, or promotion obtained through the influence of favour. To those who might object that there was something dangerous and democratic in the system, he would answer that there was no man who was not desirous of excluding from the higher ranks of the profession those who were inefficient and unequal to their duty, and there was no means of excluding them, so efficient and so little invidious, as saying that there was an educational test provided, which if a man could not pass he was not entitled to promotion. He would only add that the subject was one which they were that evening discussing upon imperfect information. When the Report of the Commission which was now sitting upon the question of education and purchase in the army was laid before them, they would be in a better position to come to a conclusion with reference to the important topic of military promotion. Meantime he should content himself with the expression of his approval of the measures which the Government proposed to adopt, being, so far as he was able to judge, to use a common expression, a step in the right direction.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERT: I am indebted to the House to so great an extent for the indulgence which, when I addressed it upon this subject upon previous occasions, I received at the hands of its Members, that I will endeavour to prove my gratitude for their past kindness by now trespassing on their attention for as short a time as possible. It is, I think, of importance that we should this evening begin by taking stock of our agreements and disagreements with respect to the question under our notice. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norfolk (General Windham) seems to object to a scheme of competitive examination for commissions in the line, and I concur with him so far as to deem it desirable that we should wait to see the result of the system of competition in the case of the Ordnance corps before we give a decided opinion with respect to the expediency of adopting it in
  596
  reference to first commissions in the line. There appears to me, I confess, this difficulty with regard to the establishment of competitive examinations for those commissions—namely, that the qualifications necessary to constitute a good officer cannot always be made the subject of educational test. So far as intellectual qualities are concerned, you can ascertain them by that test; but if you admit a competitive examination, and no other test, men may enter the army who have no qualification beyond what that examination proves them to possess. I confess I rather agree with the view of those who are against a competitive examination only, unless you extend it not only to intellectual, but to moral and physical qualities—unless you ascertain what a man's strength is with the gloves on or at single-stick; or you put him into a field surrounded by four stiff Leicestershire fences and see how he gets out of it. These points are not immaterial in the selection of good officers, though they are not tests usually applied by examiners. I think, however, that too restricted an application of the rule in the case of first commissions, might deprive the service of many valuable officers. My hon. and gallant Friend (General Windham) has put the case of two candidates for a commission in the line—the one a generous, liberal, fine fellow, who has been rather idle with regard to his studies, and the other a learned bookworm, whose eyes are worn out with reading, who is a bad horseman, and who is altogether unfit for the active duties of a soldier's life. I do not want, however, to substitute the bookworm for the fine fellow, but to get hold of the fine fellow, and to take care that he knows his duties thoroughly. Under the present system you may have the bookworm—the man physically inefficient, and you constantly have him. As to the fine fellow, I agree in the opinion of Sir Charles Napier, who says there is no officer in the world like the English gentleman—I do not mean in the sense in which that term is sometimes used, applying only to the landed gentry, but a man of liberal education, who possesses the advantages which result from such an education. In this sense, looking to the constitution of the English army, I think gentlemen will always make the best officers. An hon. and gallant Officer (Colonel North) has expressed a fear lest you should establish too high a standard of examination; but why have too high

  597
  a standard of examination? I think the danger is the other way. Standards of examination are not apt to rise; on the contrary, they have a great tendency to fall: and if you insist upon men otherwise competent to be officers passing through an examination for their first commissions, I do not think there is any danger of the standard being placed too high. I do not give any opinion on the subject of competition for entrance into the Ordnance corps. You have, I believe, the same class of men as you had before—neither better nor worse. I know it is not a popular doctrine that it is of any importance that the army should be officered by gentlemen, but I hold that it is so. I will tell you why I entertain that opinion. Our object ought to be to get that class of men who will make the best officers. Prove to me that peasants, who form the rank and file of the army, will make the best officers, and I say "Let all your officers be peasants." I think, however, that in dealing with a question of this kind you ought not to consider the interests of any class, but your object ought to be to obtain men who can most efficiently discharge the duties they are required to perform. England is a nation essentially not military with regard to its interior habits and organization. The habit of military organization is foreign to its people. As the most complete discipline and thorough obedience are necessary to the efficiency of an army, you cannot afford to throw away any element which will secure those objects; and one of the main elements in the spirit of obedience in our army is, that the peasantry, from whom the private soldier is drawn, has a natural tendency to follow the lead of the gentlemen from whose class the officer is drawn. That is my only reason for entertaining the opinion I have expressed. You cannot persuade men that in other professions it is a disadvantage to be a gentleman, and, indeed, the common sense of mankind leads to a contrary conclusion. The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Palk) says he does not see how a system of army education can be carried to any height compatably with the system of purchase. I do not see any such difficulty. Whether a man rises by seniority aided by purchase, whether by seniority without purchase, or whether by selection, I do not understand why you cannot have a standard of examination which will secure that a man, however he has obtained
  598
  his promotion, is fit to discharge the duties of his position. There are one or two other points upon which I may be allowed to say a few words. I have heard it said that a sore feeling has been produced in the army by the statements that have been made by civilians with respect to the conduct of general officers commanding in the field, and that the movement for increased education in the army is regarded by them as a slur. I think the latter idea is unfounded, but I also think that the civilians of this country have judged officers in high command with great unfairness. The traditions of our youth are formed upon the successes of one of the most remarkable men England ever produced, and we are disposed to complain that every officer sent in command of an expedition does not possess the genius of the Duke of Wellington. Now, how many great generals has England produced? Why, you may count them on your fingers. Take Cromwell, Marlborough, Peterborough, if you will, and Wellington; but when you go further you will find yourselves in another class, and it cannot be expected that every man in command of an army should not only exhibit the capacity, but should possess the experience, of a Wellington, or a Marlborough. So far then we have judged very unfairly. But I maintain that the army may retort upon civilians, and may say, "Here we have had a war conducted during three or four years and you cannot point out one civilian who has shown any great aptitude or genius for directing the operations of the war." I have always felt that the most important question in connection with this subject is the mode of admission to the staff. A gallant officer who sits near me (General Windham) has recommended that we should copy the French system. I confess that I am very much afraid of adopting any plan which is merely a copy of the system of other countries, irrespective of the peculiar qualities and habits of the British army; and, looking to the constitution of our army as contrasted with the French, I do not believe that the French system of a separate staff corps rising by promotion within that corps, and never going back to regimental duty, would be suitable to the British army. It would create a separate caste, which would be regarded with the greatest jealousy, and I believe the best feature of our system is, that the staff officer when not employed on the staff goes back to his

  599
  ordinary duties and mixes with the regimental officers. I am not prepared to give an opinion as to the principle of a competitive examination for first commissions, but I can see no objection to the competition for staff appointments, or for admission into the staff school. The idea is not a new one, for it was successfully carried out during the Peninsular war, and I should like to see such a school re-established. I proposed last year that those officers who most distinguished themselves in examinations for promotion should compete for admission into the staff schools; and I think I understood that it is now the intention of Her Majesty's Government to establish an examination for the staff. I understand the arrangement proposed by the General Order, that any officer nominated to the staff should be required to submit to examination by three officers appointed by the Horse Guards, is to be abandoned. I fear such an examination would come down to the candidate, and would not attempt to establish a standard to which he should rise. I consider that you ought to have a permanent body of examiners, who would subject all candidates to an equal test, and would be competent to ascertain whether the attainments of candidates were the result of cramming; or of careful study, and a well-regulated system of application. I think, also, that the education of the staff should include aides-de-camp. They are required to discharge most important duties, and very high responsibility frequently attaches to them. It is said that they are only "the two-penny postmen of the army;" but if this description is accurate, on what principle is it that they take superior position, and receive increased pay? Although it is not their duty to direct operations, but to convey orders, circumstances may change before they arrive at the point to which they are despatched, and they may be called upon to exercise considerable discretion. If they are only to be bearers of messages that duty might be as well performed by an orderly of dragoons. They are usually in personal attendance on the officers in command, and they are sure to be mentioned in despatches and to obtain promotion, for the generals to whom they are attached naturally speak of duties which are performed under their own eyes. I do not say that a general officer may not be allowed to choose his own personal staff, but he should be limited in his choice to
  600
  those persons who are on the list as having qualified themselves for those duties which they will be called upon to perform. I beg pardon of the House for detaining them upon these points, but what I want to see is, that the examination for the staff should be made as practical as it is possible to make it. I see from the Report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the military education in foreign countries, that in Austria the examination is not only one of intellect, but that personal and physical qualities are taken into consideration. I know that we shall find it very difficult, but we must attempt it if we wish to arrive at any practical result. I cannot sit down without mentioning the name of one gentleman who more than any one else has been instrumental in bringing this question forward—I mean Mr. Gleig, the chaplain general. That gentleman has been one of the principal motive powers in stirring up this question at the War Office; and when I had the honour of being connected with that department I derived the greatest possible benefit from his advice and assistance, and I have the greatest pleasure now in giving him the credit which he deserves. I regret, I must say, the delay which has taken place in dealing with this question. During the last year that I had the honour of being Secretary at War, I laid upon the table a plan very much like the one which has now been laid before us, and which I hope will be carried out. The late House of Commons received the plan which I proposed with great indulgence, and, what was more to the purpose, they voted the money for carrying it out; but neither last year nor this year have I seen anything about the matter in the Estimates. I am willing, however, to exercise patience, and I hope that next year the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Ramsden) will be prepared to ask for a Vote to carry out a plan which will be satisfactory to the country and advantageous to the efficiency of the service.
  MAJOR WARBURTONwished, as a member of one of the instructed corps of the service, which had hitherto received little encouragement, to express the gratification which he had felt at the announcement made that evening by the hon. Baronet the Under Secretary for War. That announcement would give new life and energy to many an unfriended man in the army, who would now see a fair field open for the development of his abilities, inasmuch as those valuable appointments

  601
  which had hitherto been open only to persons who possessed interest and connection would now be open to all. It was of the greatest importance that the staff college should be open to members of the instructed corps of the service. In the case of the Ordnance corps the system of competition had hitherto proved most successful, and that system would, he hoped, be fully carried out to its utmost extent.
  GENERAL CODRINGTONsaid, he did not think that competitive examination for a first commission was advisable, as to establish that principle might shut out from the army that particular class of men who made the best soldiers, and run the chance of getting men into the army who were not suited for the service. As regarded the particular education for the staff, he did not quite understand the extent to which it was proposed to be carried, and he did not think that it would be worth while at present to enter into any details upon the subject. The general principle appeared to be admitted that there should be a competition among officers of the line for admission into the staff college. Now, this difficulty would arise with regard to the staff. Was the staff to be a distinct staff corps for England, or were officers to be taken from their regiments out of the country? If officers of a regiment on service in India or the colonies were allowed to come home to be examined for staff appointments the effect would be detrimental to the efficiency of the service; and if they were not allowed to come home, then how could the best men throughout the service be chosen by competitive examination? There were one or two points in the Resolution of the gallant General to which he was not disposed to give his concurrence, and one was that part of the Resolution which referred to the appointment of a Council of military education. As he understood the gallant General, his proposal was that the Council should be especially under the Secretary for War acting independently of the Commander in Chief, and that its duties should be to examine persons for the staff, taking away from their regiment for that purpose officers on full pay. He did not think that it was advisable even in matters of a civil nature that the Secretary for War should be able to interfere with the responsibility of the Commander in Chief for the education and efficiency of the officers of the army by taking them from their regiments. The result would
  602
  be a divided authority, and experience had already shown the danger of such a division. The establishment of a staff college would cost a very large sum of money, and he hoped that hon. Members who were so anxious for the establishment of that system would not hesitate when they were asked to pay the bill. In Austria, he believed, where such a system existed, the annual cost was about £148,000, and the amount required would be a serious question to discuss in considering the Estimate which might be presented to Parliament. No one doubted the advantage of giving an officer as good an education as was possible—education never did any one any harm—but it was very difficult to fix the standard, and the House would remember that many men might reach that standard without any of those other qualities which in the army were particularly required. Mention had been made of the appointment of a chief of the staff, and he would therefore briefly refer to the subject. The appointment of a chief of the staff was an imitation of the French system, and in the French army the principle was carried to an extreme degree. Not only was there a chief of the staff of the army generally, but every general of division had his chief of the staff. Now, he did not see why a general of division should not be his own chief of the staff and communicate directly with his own quartermaster general and adjutant general. He would only add that he was glad to find that the general subject had excited the attention of the Government. The education of the officers was the great point to attain; but he hoped that it would not be carried to such an exclusive degree as to lead to the idea that the practical part of the profession of an officer, which, after all, was the main thing to keep in view, was to be subordinated to general education.
  COLONEL SYKESbegged to state, as an old soldier, that the object to be attained in the education of an officer was, that he should be competent for the work to which he was to be put. This object required qualifications of a professional character and did not depend upon the usual school or college instruction; and, therefore, the aim and object of his education, should be professional acquirement and fitness for his work, and not that he should become a literary coxcomb. The prescribed examination, above all things, should be bonâ fide, for otherwise it would be a

  603
  mockery and a delusion. Having passed that examination—not for literary acquirements, but for professional knowledge—a man entered the army, and the hon. and gallant Member (Sir De L. Evans) proposed that there should afterwards be a competitive examination previous to entering upon the staff. He (Colonel Sykes) thought that a desirable arrangement, because hitherto promotion to the staff, as was well known, had depended chiefly on family or personal interest, or both, and not upon the qualifications of the individual concerned. At the same time he thought such an examination should be general as to place, and not exclusively confined to aspirants in any particular locality. It was only fair that officers serving with regiments in the Colonies and other parts of the world should have equal opportunities afforded them with those at home, of submitting themselves to such examinations. In India they had a system of examination somewhat analogous to the one proposed. No officer could hold a staff appointment until he had passed an examination, not merely as a colloquial linguist, but as an interpreter, and there were standing committees appointed in different parts of the country before which candidates must appear to undergo such an examination before they could do staff duty or serve in any detached employment; and for this purpose the officer obtained leave of absence for a few months. Similar Committees might be appointed in the Royal Army. It was not absolutely necessary that an individual should go into a college to learn the duties of a staff officer. Strategy, castrametation, and various other branches of practical knowledge could be obtained without going into a college for the express purpose of acquiring them. He entirely concurred in the suggestion that it was impolitic that there should be an indiscriminate competitive examination before entering the army at all; but, at the same time, he thought it desirable that a certain number of commissions should from time to time be given as prizes to persons who wished to enter the army, and who were willing to compete for them. The plan had been found to work well in the Royal artillery and in the East India Company's service, and several of the Directors had placed commissions in the Indian army at the disposal of schools and colleges, and these had been gained by young men, who bad proved an honour to the service.
  LORD ALFRED CHURCHILLsaid, he perfectly concurred in all that had been said with respect to the high standard to be required of officers in the army. An officer should be above all things a gentleman, if the men serving under him were to be expected to look up to him, and cheerfully and implicitly to carry out his orders on all occasions. He would do all in his power to forward the interests of able and deserving men among the non-commissioned officers desirous of rising in their profession, but he thought, as a class, they were not generally fitted for commissions, and that, if they were taken out of their natural sphere the men in the ranks would not look up to them in the same way they did to officers of a superior grade by birth and education. He thought, also, it would be desirable to offer a certain number of commissions from time to time for competition in our great public schools, which would give an impetus to a well-educated class of young men to enter the army who might otherwise experience some difficulty in obtaining a commission. It would not then be simply the aristocratic class who would get commissions, but also men who had earned them by their own ability and exertions. It was not, however, only the able mathematician or the skilful constructor of fortifications that made a man a good officer. To be thoroughly efficient in his profession he must also have a liberal education, and, as the late Sir Charles Napier had observed, the best officer, after all, was the English country gentleman.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir. I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend (Sir De Lacy Evans) must be well satisfied with the interesting discussion which his Resolution has elicited. The matter is one of the highest interest to the country, and those Gentlemen who have expressed their opinions in the course of the discussion are all men who appear by their professional pursuits, or by the attention they have devoted to this interesting topic, to be highly competent to arrive at a sound conclusion in reference to it. Upon the general necessity—I will not lower it so far as to call it the expediency—of securing a good education to the officers in the army, I think everybody who has thought for a moment on the subject must be only of one opinion. There is this, however, to be considered, that any examination into merely intellectual attainments

  605
  can afford you but an imperfect Standard as to the qualifications of an individual for military employment. There are three requisites for making a good officer. There is, first of all, general intelligence, and that ordinary education which a gentleman is supposed to have obtained; next, there is proficiency in his military and professional knowledge—in those matters which are thoroughly military, and which do not belong to a general literary education; and above all, in the third place, there are those constitutional qualities which are eminently and beyond all others important in the composition of an officer. Undoubtedly my right hon. Friend the Member for South Wiltshire (Mr. S. Herbert) has observed how few great generals the history of this country has recorded. He might have generalized that observation and extended it to the whole civilized world; for that combination of constitutional qualities, of military attainments, and of general knowledge, which united make a great military leader, is perhaps one of the rarest things you can find in the whole range of human nature; and accordingly there are fewer men recorded in history who have been great generals than those who have excelled in any other department of human pursuits. The first examination; of a young man who is to enter the army ought to be a standard test to show that he has received the liberal education of a gentleman, and that he is possessed of mental and natural qualities which indicate that he is a young man of capacity and industry, and likely to excel in advancing himself in the knowledge of his profession. I think it most essential and wise to propose that the first examination shall not apply to purely military attainments. A young man at the age; at which candidates are examined for entrance into the army will have employed his time to sufficient purpose if he have attained a requisite knowledge of those general branches of education with which young men ought to be acquainted. When he has received his commission, and after he has been a certain time in his regiment, his commanding officer has an opportunity of seeing whether he possesses those other constitutional qualities which fit him to rise and to distinguish himself in his profession. The competitive examination for the staff seems to meet the general approbation of the House. With regard to the strictness of the examination, I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman
  606
  the Member for Wiltshire, there is always in a standard examination some danger that it will fail too low. I think, however, the arrangements intended to be made, by which it is proposed that the examinations shall be conducted by examiners periodically changed, not belonging to any official establishment, and partly civilians and partly military men, will sufficiently secure that the examination shall not fall below the point to which it ought to be reduced. There is in a system of competitive examination, on the other hand, the danger of going too high; and I must submit that in many examinations not excluding the Universities and other systems, the examiners, from the natural feeling that what every man does should be done as well as possible, place a little too high the standard to which they subject the competition of candidates. More especially, I should say, with regard to mathematics, there are limits beyond which no practical advantage is gained in straining the mind in attaining abstract knowledge, for which in after life there is no immediate or practical use. Therefore, a great deal of discretion is required in persons who examine, to see that the examination turns upon matters which will be useful in the line which the young man who is examined is intended to follow, and that he is not taxed beyond the useful amount which he may be expected to attain. The result, if examinations are carried too far, no doubt is, that you are apt to get a young man who is endowed with a very retentive memory, and sometimes to lose a young man whose intellectual resources and whose promptitude and readiness in action would make him the more useful in the military service; you get a man whose mind is an accomplished dictionary, instead of a man whose mind is created for energy and action; but it is practical men who are required for the army. In the devising a system applicable to military education, the first part is completed, and, as my hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for the War Department has said, will be immediately laid on the table of the House. The remaining portions are under consideration, and will, no doubt, be prepared with the same views with which, the portion already prepared has been completed. The Resolution of my hon. and gallant Friend seems to me to be a little too much in the affirmation of points still under consideration. I am quite prepared to agree to the main principles upon which the Resolution is founded. But at the

  607
  same time, when he sees that the Council to whom the matter has been referred by Her Majesty's Government are still considering many of the points on which his Resolution touches, I would submit to my hon. and gallant Friend whether he may not either be satisfied with the discussion which his Motion has brought about, leave the matter to be considered by the Government in connection with the Council, waiting to see what they may propose next Session as the result of their deliberations; or, if my hon. and gallant Friend feels that this is a matter of such importance that it would be desirable the House should, with him, record an opinion on the general subject of his Resolution, he might, by some modification of that Resolution, secure our assent to its general principles without tying the Government to details. By adopting this latter course he would, while strengthening the hands of the Government, not tie them up. I leave it to him to consider which of those alternatives it may be the more advisable for him to adopt; but I can assure him that the Government have at heart the same object to which he has so ably, and with such honour to himself, directed the attention of the House; and this being so, there can be, I should say, no difficulty in our arriving at the adoption of a system that will secure the end which we all desire to see accomplished.
  SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he was very much gratified with the way in which the noble Lord at the head of the Government had met his proposition; and, so far as he could judge from the statements of the noble Lord and the Under Secretary of War, some of the points adopted by the Government were identical with those which he (Sir De Lacy Evans) had ventured to put forward. He was content to leave the details of a system of education to be dealt with by the Council and the Government in the first instance. He had no intention of proposing an unqualified competitive system for the whole body of officers, infantry and cavalry. He merely wished for an infusion of the competitive system, and he believed the Government were disposed to adopt it with regard to some portion of the officers of the line. In order to meet the views of the noble Lord, he would amend his Resolution by omitting the last passage, which proposed a particular plan, and in this shape he thought it would meet the wishes of the noble Lord and of the House.
  Motion agreed to.
  Resolved,
  "That, in the opinion of this House, a higher standard of professional instruction, and more complete provision for it than hitherto deemed requisite, ought to be established for the Commissioned Ranks of the Army, but especially for the Staff; that this will be best promoted by recourse to competitive examination of Officers desiring to quality themselves for the Staff, and by assured encouragements for proficiency and general fitness for advancement."

GALWAY WRIT.

  WRIT REFUSED.—ADDRESS FOR INQUIRY.
  COLONEL FRENCH COLONEL FRENCH rose, pursuant to notice, to move that a new writ be issued for the election of a burgess to serve for the county of the town of Galway, in the room of Anthony Flaherty, Esq., whose election had been declared void. In obedience to the decision of the Speaker, he had not placed his notice where, according to ancient usage, he thought that he was entitled to place it; but the Speaker having decided that where notice was given it could only come on in its turn, he had placed his notice accordingly. He trusted that between this and the re-assembling of Parliament the Speaker would reconsider this decision, because, if the constitution of that House was not a matter of privilege, he did not see what could be considered as coming within that description. When he first brought the matter before the House he did not anticipate any opposition to his Motion. The Committee by which the petition respecting the Galway election was tried made no report as to the necessity of withholding the writ, nor did any member of it give notice of his intention to move that it should be suspended; on the contrary, his notice was upon the paper four days before the Chairman of the Committee moved that the evidence should be laid before the House. The evidence had now been printed, and had been for a considerable time in the hands of hon. Members. He had read it attentively, and it appeared to him that it furnished no grounds for the Resolution of which the hon. Gentleman the late Chairman of the Galway Election Committee (Mr. G. Clive) had given notice. He had always doubted whether that House had a constitutional power to suspend writs and keep constituencies unrepresented, and certainly if it had such a power, it was one which ought to be exercised with the greatest caution and only in extreme cases. That Parliament was extremely anxious that the number of its Members should always be maintained

  609
  was shown by the fact that power was given to the Speaker, under certain regulations, to issue his writ for filling up vacancies which occurred when that House was not sitting. Although at present such a case was not likely to occur, it was possible that this power of suspending writs might be used both for political and party purposes. In such cases as those which used formerly to occur, in which a Ministry was turned out or kept in by a single vote, it might be of the greatest importance to keep a seat vacant. No Committee could have discharged its duties more ably or more impartially than that appointed in the Galway case, nor did he think that any one could question its decision. The Report, which was before the House, stated that certain electors had been bribed, and the evidence showed that seven persons received 40 s. each, out of which one of them expended 38 s. The whole expenditure of the successful candidate was but £370, so that the bribery could not have been very extensive. The Report stated that the evidence appeared to establish the fact that systematic bribery of certain classes of the electors had prevailed at the last and former election. That systematic bribery prevailed at the last election no one who had read the evidence could doubt; it did not appear to have been extensive, but it was perfectly systematic. A ticket was given to the voter signed by the agent of the late sitting Member. This ticket he took to a medical gentleman, holding a Government situation, who put his seal to it. It was then taken by the voter to a house, where the maidservant told him to go to a particular window, on putting his hand through a broken pane of which he received the money. There was no doubt that this was very systematic, but it was so clumsily done he thought it doubtful whether those concerned in it had had any experience at former elections. The question, however, now before the House was, not whether seven persons received money for their votes, but whether a town of between 30,000 and 40,000 inhabitants should be deprived of its representation, because certain parties, perfectly well known, and amenable to punishment under the existing law, had offended. A number of election cases had been tried relating to England and Scotland. In some bribery had been proved, but in not a single instance had it been proposed to suspend the writ. Was there to be one law for England and Scotland and another for Ireland?
  610
  He had no desire to shield any of the parties who had been convicted of receiving bribes. Let them all be proceeded against; but he trusted the House would not, by suspending the writ, punish the innocent. He had a technical objection to the Resolution of the Committee, and the course proposed to be taken upon it. That Resolution ought to have been expressed in the words of the Corrupt Practices Act; but, instead of stating that corrupt practices "extensively" prevailed at the late and former elections for Galway, it merely declared that the evidence given before the Committee "appeared" to establish the fact that systematic bribery of certain classes existed at the late and former elections. He had no desire to screen individuals, and he trusted that Government would take proceedings against the parties who had been guilty of bribery; but for the reason he had stated, he hoped the House would not consider it necessary to delay the writ any longer.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland to make out a new writ for the electing of a Burgess to serve in this present parliament for the Town and County of the Town of Galway, in the room of Anthony O'Flaherty, esquire, whose Election has been determined to be void."
  MR. G. CLIVEsaid, that he rose with great regret and pain to perform the very disagreeable duty of moving an Amendment—a duty which was cast upon him as Chairman of the late Committee—an Amendment that an Address be presented to Her Majesty for an inquiry into the existence of corrupt practices at the last and former elections for Galway. The hon. and gallant Gentleman had ranged his remarks under two heads, one relating to the evidence given before the Committee and the other to certain points of form. With the permission of the House he would refer to the latter first. The Report of the Committee, it seemed, was not in conformity with the Corrupt Practices Act, because it commenced with the words, "The evidence appears to establish the fact that systematic bribery of certain classes of electors has prevailed at the last and former elections," and did not state that corrupt practices had "extensively" prevailed at the last and former elections for Galway. Now, as he had but recently become a Member of the House, and had not considered it necessary to read the whole of Hansard, he was not aware

  611
  at the time the Galway Committee sat that in a debate which took place some years ago on the Canterbury case, the noble Lord the Member for London and the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary had expressed their opinion that the Reports of Election Committees should follow the words of the Act of Parliament. But he had since become acquainted with that fact, and if he should ever again have the honour of acting as Chairman of an Election Committee, he would take care to advise his colleagues to adopt the words of the Act, although he apprehended that the effect of that rule would be to hamper Committees in coming to a decision. The hon. and gallant Gentleman objected to the words "it appears" as not being equivalent to those contained in the Act. All he could say in reply to that objection was, that the thing which "appeared" to him to exist actually did exist. He had no means of acquiring a knowledge of facts except through the medium of his senses. "It appeared" to him that the Speaker was in his chair at the present moment, and in the same way "it appeared" to the Galway Committee that there was systematic bribery at the last and former elections. So much with respect to the question of form. He now came to the other and more important point relating to the evidence, and here he must say that the remarks of the hon. and gallant Gentleman had greatly surprised him. In the Cambridge, Maldon, and other cases there were fewer persons proved to have been bribed than in the Galway case; but it was not entirely the fact that a certain number of persons had been bribed which induced the Committee to recommend the suspension of the writ and the institution of an inquiry. That fact was only one among many others which indicated that an extensive system of corruption prevailed at the last and former elections. The evidence given before the Committee related to three different classes of persons. The first were those who received tickets for the poll, who got them sealed by a certain gentleman, and who then went to a house where they were paid a sum of money through a hole in the wall, after the old fashion so familiar to the House. The second class consisted of a considerable number of tenants, rather of the better sort, who were bribed with half-notes, receiving one half before and the other half after the election. Some voters, belonging to the same class, refused to
  612
  accept the half-notes, not from any indisposition to be bribed, but simply because they were afraid they would not get the other halves after the poll. The third class was the most important of all, for it indicated that a considerable number of tradesmen were in the habit of receiving money for voting in a body. Among the cases was that of twenty-three persons, all butchers, and many of them related to each other, who were proved by one witness to have offered their votes at £10 a head, a sum which was considered by one of themselves to be too much, and that £5 would have been a fairer amount. It was upon those facts that the Committee had arrived at the decision that the last election for Galway was void. He (Mr. Clive) had no desire that the House should adopt his views, except so far as they were justified by the evidence. He was performing a disagreeable duty in moving the suspension of the writ, but he did so with the object of bringing the whole facts under the cognizance of the House, and leaving it to them to determine the course that should be adopted. He begged to move an Amendment.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, "an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that an inquiry be made into the existence of corrupt practices during the last as well as former Elections for the Town and County of the Town of Galway," instead thereof.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDobserved, that the hon. and gallant Member for Roscommon (Colonel French) had asked him to decide whether the Committee had followed the terms of the Act of Parliament before recommending the issue of a Commission. It appeared to him that if the Committee had not followed the exact words of the Act they had at least complied substantially with its spirit. The Committee reported seven distinct cases of bribery committed under circumstances which indicated the existence of a system of bribery at elections. They also reported instances of abortive attempts at bribery, and finally they reported that the evidence before them appeared to establish the fact that the systematic bribery of certain classes of electors had prevailed at the last and former elections. The hon. and gallant Member for Roscommon objected that the Committee had not followed the words of the Corrupt Practices Act; but, if the exact words had not

  613
  been used, at least the idea intended by those words was conveyed. Therefore, he (Mr. FitzGerald) could not avoid advising the House that there had been a substantial compliance with the terms of the Act. If that were so, there was a foundation for the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Hereford (Mr. Clive). Without entering into details, he would only further say that as the Chairman of the Committee, upon his own responsibility, moved the Amendment, it would only be in accordance with the practice of the House to adopt that Amendment. In so doing, and by the issue of a Commission, little injury would be done to the constituency of Galway, for the Commission would be able to conclude their labours and to report before the next Session of Parliament; while if the writ were now issued, the new representative of Galway would not be able to present himself until within a few days of the termination of the present Session.
  LORD LOVAINE, as one of the Galway Election Committee, reminded the House that there had been a precedent for the terms of their Report and their consequent action in the Canterbury case. The Committee had been guided by motives of the utmost impartiality, and with the evidence before them, they could come to no other decision than that they had.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he understood among the persons mentioned as having assisted in the practices which had been referred to was a Professor Brown. If that gentleman was a professor of the Queen's College of Galway, he (Mr. Whiteside) wished to know whether such a person was to be retained to instruct the youth of Ireland in corrupt practices.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONreplied, that that would be one of the circumstances into which the Commission would have to inquire.
  MR. HADFIELDdeprecated the issuing of any Commission, and he referred to the case of Hull, which had required some tons of paper in printing the evidence, and now no one heard of it. There was Canterbury again, when the only result was to prove that bribery had existed in that borough for ages. He could not connsent to incur the expense of a Commission.
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, he Supposed that the object in suspending the writ was to give the House the opportunity of considering the evidence, but the petty details of the Galway election
  614
  would be entirely lost sight of when the great reform bill with which they were promised came before the House. They proposed to punish this borough of Galway, respecting which evidence had been laid before them, but what would they do with those numerous boroughs from which the evidence of bribery had been withheld in consequence of the corrupt and improper arrangements entered into? The hon. Member for North Staffordshire (Mr. Adderley) had brought in a Bill to put an end to the system of withdrawing election petitions without the consent, of the House, but he had been met by all the opposition the Government could give. This showed they were not in earnest in their attempts to put down bribery, and the public would not fail to see the different line of conduct pursued towards Galway and those boroughs which had escaped through the withdrawal of the petitions.
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived:—Words added:—Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that an inquiry be made into the existence of corrupt practices during the last as well as former Elections for the Town and County of the Town of Galway."

MAYO WRIT.

  WRIT SUSPENDED. PROSECUTION ORDERED.
  COLONEL FRENCH COLONEL FRENCH moved the issue of a new writ for the county of Mayo. This was a totally distinct case from the one just settled by the House. In the Galway case it was impossible to quarrel with the decision of the Committee; but here it was very different. He was bound to take the decision of the Committee as final, but he would show that the Report was contradictory in itself. They unseated Mr. Moore for having been guilty, by his agents, of undue influence; but they also found he did not sanction, nor was he aware of, any such influence. They showed a total disregard of the principles of the law. They admitted the hearsay evidence of a man who deposed to a speech in Irish, of which language it was proved he was totally ignorant. Let them look at the case, however, on broader grounds. Mayo was the third largest county in Ireland, containing a million and a half acres, and 400,000 inhabitants. Was it consistent with reason that they should

  615
  withhold the writ till next Session, or the Session after, because a catholic clergyman was alleged to have threatened to turn a voter into a cat, or something of that sort? There was not a particle of evidence to show that any one voter had been prevented from voting; between 2,000 and 3,000 had polled, and the evidence of the first gentlemen in the county was that they never saw a quieter election.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland to make out a new Writ for the electing of a Knight of the Shire to serve in this present Parliament for the County of Mayo, in the room of George Henry Moore, esquire, whose Election has been determined to be void."
  MR. SCHOLEFIELD MR. SCHOLEFIELD rose to call the attention of the House to the fifth Resolution of the Mayo Election Committee, and to move as an Amendment that the Attorney General for Ireland be directed thereon to prosecute the Rev. Peter Conway and the Rev. Luke Ryan. It was not his intention to trouble the House by reading the voluminous evidence referring to this case; it was for the House to judge how far that evidence justified the decision at which the Committee had arrived; and, notwithstanding what had fallen from the hon. and gallant Member, a careful perusal of the evidence taken before the Committee would, he thought, convince every one that Mr. Moore's election had been carried mainly, if not entirely, by the influence of the Roman Catholic priesthood—not the influence of advice, or suggestion, or even of persuasion, but the influence of spiritual intimidation in its most marked and obtrusive form. The House would see by the evidence that the proceedings of the election began by the issue of a most unseemly electioneering mandate, signed by "John Archbishop of Tuam," and three Roman Catholic Bishops, in favour of Mr. Moore and against Colonel Higgins. This was followed up by incessant activity on the part of the priests, by threats and denunciations, by spiritual intimidation and incentives to violence, until the county was in such a state of excitement that it was not possible for Colonel Higgins' voters to go to the poll, except under the protection of an escort of military—they were not safe even in the booths. The hon. and gallant Member said that there was no evidence to show that any voters had been prevented from voting, but there were plenty of such instances in the blue-book,
  616
  and there were also instances of men being compelled to vote in a different manner from that which they had intended. In one case a witness went into the polling-booth intending to vote for Higgins, he was surrounded by priests, "and they told me," said the witness, "that if I would vote for Higgins my soul would not be in the right place when I went to the other world." In reply to further questions the witness said, "They told me my soul would he in hell unless I gave a different vote, and I then voted for Moore and Palmer." The evidence abounded in instances of intimidation on the part of the priests, but he would confine himself to the two who had been specially reported to the House, Conway and Ryan. Father Conway's name appeared in almost every page of the blue-book; he seemed to be everywhere, and wherever he was he was the centre of violence and commotion. The first mention of him was in reference to a denunciation which he uttered from the altar of his chapel at Ballinrobe, on the Sunday before the election. This incident was related to the Committee by Mr. French, a landed propriety in the county, who was present at the time, and who took down the words in writing. After eulogizing Moore and Palmer to the highest degree, Father Conway proceeded to say, "As to Higgins, he is a most consummate scoundrel; he has deceived you in every point and broken every promise; he has sold his country and himself, body and soul, and now he presumes to come forward and ask for your votes. The curse of Cod will fall on every one who gives him one." It was only fair to say that that evidence was contradicted to some extent by a gentleman of great respectability, who give a different interpretation to the curse; but the Committee came to the conclusion that it was really uttered in the terms stated, partly because the words were taken down by Mr. French at the time, and partly because from other evidence given it seemed to be Father Conway's usual mode of electioneering. Evidence was given of another curse uttered by Father Conway on the same day. Addressing some voters from the top of a wall, who had been brought into the town to vote for Higgins, he said, "May the curse of God be upon any man who votes for Higgins!" He understood that it would be denied that Father Conway had ever uttered these words, but if he did not utter them there was a place in

  617
  which he could have repudiated them with great force—the Mayo Election Committee-room. He was in the lobby during the whole of the inquiry, but he was never called. The second case was that of Father Luke Ryan. On the 22nd of March that rev. gentleman read from the altar a list of the freeholders in the parish, commenting upon every name, and applying the terms "traitor," "blackleg," and "black sheep" to the names of those who were likely to vote for Colonel Higgins. He told the congregation that Higgins had sold them and his country, and, pointing to the middle of the church, he said, "If the devil were to come up there I would vote for him in preference to Higgins." He struck the altar with his right hand at the time to give greater emphasis to the expression. On the 29th of March he said, "that the curse of God would come down upon any one who voted against his country and his country's cause, and voting for Higgins would be doing that." "He would not give the rites of the Church," he said, "to anybody who voted for Higgins." He desired the congregation "to keep their eyes on the black sheep and to mark them." "He would brand them," he said, "he would mark them for life." It had been said that these addresses were not uncommon in Ireland, and that they must not be measured by the English standard; but if they were common that was a strong reason for Parliament to interfere to put an end to them. But he believed that these denunciations were not so common as was supposed, and that they were quite at variance with the discipline of the Roman Catholic Church; for he held in his hand a Resolution agreed to unanimously by the Bishops of the Church of Rome in 1834, in which they pledged themselves to recommend their clergy most earnestly to avoid in future any allusion from the altar to political subjects. He directed attention to this, because he was anxious that the House should not think that the Committee had been actuated by any prejudice against Roman Catholics. The Committee had felt that it was not a question of Protestantism as opposed to Catholicism, but that it was a question of freedom of election as against priestly intimidation. So viewing it, the Committee had discharged their duty faithfully, and although he (Mr. Scholefield) had always done his best to maintain the civil and religious privileges of his Roman Catholic fellow subjects, he
  618
  considered it to be his bounden duty to see that the priests did not infringe the civil liberties of the people. He admitted that Colonel Knox and several other most respectable witnesses who had been called on behalf of Mr. Moore had stated that the last election was comparatively a quiet one; but if that were so the previous elections must have been very remarkable ones, for those witnesses all said that at no time could an elector who did not vote on behalf of the priest's candidate go to the poll without a military escort. They proved indisputably, in fact, that mob influence was very much in vogue at that election, and that that influence had been elicited and encouraged by the priests. With respect to future proceedings, he must tell the House unhesitatingly that he did not believe if they issued a new writ that they would obtain the free expression of the opinions of the voters of the county of Mayo. If, however, the writ were suspended time would be afforded for vindicating the law by the trial of the two priests whom the Committee had named, time would also be gained for further investigation if it should be deemed necessary, and for allaying the state of bitterness and irritation in which the county was unfortunately plunged at the present moment, and on the whole he believed that much good would result. If, on the other hand, they decided to issue the writ, his opinion was that they might just as well save themselves the trouble of an election by despatching it straight to Archbishop M'Hale.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, "Mr. Attorney General for Ireland be directed to prosecute the Reverend Peter Conway and the Reverend Luke Ryan."
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. MAGUIRE: Sir, I desire, unaffectedly, to express the feeling of embarrassment under which I rise to address the House on the present occasion; but I throw myself without fear or hesitation upon the generosity of this English assembly, and upon that spirit of fair play which, whatever its prejudices, has always characterised the British Parliament, while I endeavour to vindicate the cause of an absent friend, and while I also endeavour to remove the misconception under which many hon. Gentlemen now labour, owing

  619
  to their imperfect information on the subject before them. The Chairman of the Committed has laid down the proposition that the election of Mr. Moore was carried not by legitimate means—not by persuasion, not by fair solicitation, not by those means of which the constitution approves; but by spiritual intimidation. To this proposition I give a decided and unqualified contradiction; and I will endeavour to show that the election of Mr. Moore had been carried in spite of influences which I consider most disgraceful to those who brought them into operation. Now the House should take into consideration the history of the two candidates then before the electors of the County of Mayo, in order to understand whether it were necessary to lash the people into excitement by undue influences, to effect the triumph of Mr. Moore. Mr. Moore was one of those men who were identified with a considerable portion of the Irish population by a thorough sympathy on certain important grounds of political policy; and whether the views of Mr. Moore were right or were wrong, there is no doubt of two things—that they were in unison with those of the majority of his constituents, and that he had proved himself eminently consistent in their advocacy and maintenance. It was notorious to what an extent Mr. Moore had gone in the promotion of those principles which he professed, and that in many counties and boroughs in Ireland he was seen at the late election endeavouring to accomplish their triumph by the return of candidates holding the same opinions. At any rate, whether his policy was a wise one or not, he was consistent in its maintenance; and such consistency, instead of rendering him unpopular, on the contrary, rendered him most popular in his native county, which he had faithfully and ably represented in this House. I say then that my hon. Friend was returned because he remained faithful to his pledges, and not through the exercise of undue influence on the part of the Catholic clergy. It was also notorious that Colonel Higgins, whether rightly or wrongly—for I do not mean to introduce any controverted question into this debate—had receded from certain pledges of fidelity to a certain policy. His conduct excited considerable indignation throughout Ireland, and especially in Mayo: and it did not require that violence and that intimidation alleged against the Catholic clergy of that county to rouse an indignation which that gentleman's own
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  conduct had already created. Therefore I assert that the excitement, such as did exist, was the natural result of the consistent conduct of the one candidate, and the desertion of the popular party by the other candidate; and that the election was the free act of the voters, and not the result of undue influence upon the part of the priests. I said that Mr. Moore's return was effected in spite of certain discreditable influences, and this I now proceed to establish. If the decision of the Committee, who condemn Mr. Moore for no act of his, and in the full knowledge of his attempts to promote order and tranquility—if their decision can be justified on this ground, the marked and culpable omission made by them in another respect is, in my mind, wholly unjustifiable. While the Committee criminated Mr. Moore for no act of his, they said not a single word in reference to the conduct of the High Sheriff of Mayo, Captain Higgins, the father of the candidate, Colonel Higgins. My assertion is this—that the conduct of the High Sheriff was most unbecoming, most partial, and most unfair, and that it was so from the first moment of the election to the last. He placed the disposal of the military force in the hands of partisans, and he filled the booths with his deputies, nearly every one of whom was a notorious partisan. It had been the custom in former elections for the High Sheriff to grant what are termed "deputations" to certain of the local magistrates, in order to secure the tranquillity of the country, and to afford protection to voters on each side; and with this object in view, the "deputations" were granted to magistrates on both sides. This was acting on an intelligible principle, that of fairness and impartiality. But the very first thing Captain Higgins did was to grant these deputations to violent partisans, and to refuse them to every magistrate on the other side. The High Sheriff is the returning officer of the county; and as returning officer his first duty is to take an oath imposed on him by the law, and in the spirit of the constitution, to act honestly, impartially, and without favour to any candidate. But what does he do? There were nine polling booths in the county, and to those nine, with I believe a single exception, he appoints notorious partisans of his son, who, by their future conduct, vindicate the wisdom of his selection. To this conduct I shall presently allude. But now I beg to call the attention of hon. Gentlemen to one of the most contemptible

  621
  and disreptable tricks I ever heard of being practised on such an occasion, and such as would disgrace the worst days of the turf. By the Act of Parliament the Sheriff was empowered to demand from each candidate a certain amount of money to cover the expenses incurred by him during the election. Now the High Sheriff, or the sub-sheriff, in his name, demanded from Mr. Moore no less a sum than £200, although the gross amount which he could claim from all the three candidates did not exceed £184 3s. 1d., and the sum which he had a right to demand from Mr. Moore was about £65 at the outside; but he insisted upon £200. More than that, he said, or the sub-sheriff, in his presence, said—"Unless you pay this sum in cash, in notes or gold, I will not put you in nomination"[Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen may laugh; but this was no laughing matter; it might have proved a fatal obstacle to Mr. Moore. Now I ask hon. Gentlemen, which of you would like to carry so large a sum into a crowd? Mr. Moore offered his cheque for the amount; and the friends who stood around him, some of the first men in the country, made the same offer; but the trick was to prevent his being nominated, and the cheque was refused. Now, considering the difficulty which there might be of getting this amount of money at the moment in a small town, and considering that the High Sheriff or sub-sheriff did not ask either of the other candidates to pay at the same time, I do not think it too much to characterize this conduct as a piece of gross unfairness; and if it did not meet with the reprehension of the Committee, it ought to excite the disgust and indignation of every lover of fair play. Mr. Moore was charged with bribery and corruption of all kinds, and it was not until the last moment that these charges were withdrawn. But the only person proved to have been guilty of bribery was one of the High Sheriff's deputies, Captain Brabazon, who, I hope, may be made to feel, through the Attorney General, that he is as amenable to the laws as any humble man in the land. This Captain Brabazon, who, harangued against Mr. Moore one day, who canvassed for Colonel Higgins another, who poured out invectives against Mr. Moore a third day, who on another day was sworn to act impartially to all candidates, and without favour to any—this gentleman wrote to a stamp distributer named Mulligan, whom he had previously canvassed, guaranteeing him
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  against all consequences if he voted—if he voted contrary to the express prohibition of an Act of Parliament wisely framed to prevent servants of the Crown from interposing in elections. On the man's proper refusal, Captain Brabazon, who happens to be his landlord, said—"Very well, then I am no longer a friend of yours." Now by that offer and promise of a guarantee, Captain Brabazon has subjected himself to the penalties of the Bribery Act. His conduct at the booth was only a counterpart of that of the other deputies, with one or two exceptions. The Chairman of the Committee said the voters were not safe in the booths. That I admit; but I contend the fault lay not with the priests, but with the deputies. To their conduct and to that of the High Sheriff I attribute much of the excitement which prevailed. Only imagine the conduct of one of the deputies, a Mr. Jennings, as deposed to by Sir Robert Blosse. This Mr. Jennings rejects a man's vote because probably owing to his being a pig-jobber, who in his visits to England had caught up the Cockney accent—he voted for "Mr. Paumer," instead of Mr. Palmer. Mr. Jennings, whose fine Celtic ear was offended at the pronunciation, said there was no such person as "Paumer," and refused the vote. Another unhappy voter presented himself, and was asked, "are you the person whose name is on this list?" His reply was, "I am." He was then asked, "Did you vote before at this election? The reply of the poor clodhopper was—"I am." And the impartial deputy rejected this man's vote on the frivolous ground of this mistake—and this man was about to vote for Moore and Palmer. Then there was a Mr. Sharkie who did not belong to Mayo, but who had been brought in for the purpose, he being a friend and violent partisan of Colonel Higgins. This gentleman it was who gave so pathetic a description to the Committee of the sufferings and persecution he had endured at the hands of the friends of Palmer and Moore; but whose romance about brandished sticks and showers of stones was dispelled by the undoubted testimony of Colonel Wardlaw and Licut, Grayburn, who saw neither sticks, nor stones, nor violence of any kind. I advise any hon. Gentleman who desires to settle in Ireland, and ambitions the elective franchise, to shave off his mustaches. I give this advice, because of what happened to a gentleman who, having the misfortune to possess mustaches, went into Mr.

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  Sharkie's booth to record his vote for Palmer and Moore. He gave his vote for these two Candidates; but his vole was only recorded for "Palmer," because it was alleged that "Moore" was smothered in the Doctor's mustache. Then Captain Brabazon was as stern as Rhadamanthus to the friends of Mr. Moore, and threatened to clear the court, and send the offenders to bridewell; but when the friends of Colonel Higgins hooted against Moore and Palmer, he laughed pleasantly. An English Protestant gentleman, Mr. Wilbraham, deposed that a Mr. Hildebrand allowed in his booth cheering for Higgins, and hooting against Palmer and Moore. Another deputy, a Mr. O'Dowd, a solicitor, harangued a mob against Mr. Moore one day, and he is sworn to act without partiality or favour the next. Another, a Mr. M'Donald, grants time when the name of a voter of Colonel Higgins is called, but will not permit a moment to the voters of Mr. Moore; thus if the name be not at once answered to, that person cannot vote until the whole list is gone through, and his name is come to again. The evidence of several witnesses, Colonel Knox, Sir Robert Blosse, the Honourable Geoffrey Brown, the two Mr. Jordans, and Mr. Wilbraham, proved that, with the honourable exception of Dr. Burke and another, the deputies acted as partisans of Colonel Higgins, and thus fully vindicated the wisdom of the Sheriff in their selection. It has been said that this election has been carried by priestly influence. What proof is there that it has been so carried! I assert that there is no evidence of such being the case. Look at the polling. The gross number of electors on the list was, in round numbers, 2,600. Of these 2,200 voted, and but 400 were unpolled. Colonel Higgins had 772 plumpers, while Captain Palmer had only 96, and Mr. Moore but 48. And of the comparatively small number of 400 who did not poll, a considerable number were kept from polling, not by the misconduct of the priests, but by the illegality of the High Sheriff. In the barony of Tyrawley there were 535 votes on the registry; and Mr. Lee, the agent of Captain Palmer, applied to the Sheriff for a second booth—which application was refused by him, although the Act leaves him no option, and requires him to comply. What was the result? This—that while in other baronies there were 17, 30, 40, or not more than 60 unpolled, there were 103 unpolled in Tyrawley, a barony known to be
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  favourable to Moore and Palmer. Now, as to the influence of the priests. Sir Robert Blosse, the hon. Geoffrey Brown, and other witnesses declare that whatever influence the priests may have had on previous occasions, they never had less influence than at the last. This evidence coming from men of high position and character, proves that the assertion of the Chairman of the Committee, that the election of Mr. Moore was carried by spiritual intimidation, is not borne out by the real facts of the case. And yet the House is ready to believe every exaggeration with respect to the Catholic clergy, and not to give crdit to what is proved in their defence. It cheered every expression of the hon. Chairman; though I am compelled to admit that the hon. Gentleman has expressed himself as fairly and temperately as under the circumstances he could. But I believe that the hon. Gentleman has his prejudices, honourable and upright as he is; and I cannot help thinking that my hon. Friend has been sacrificed to those prejudices, and the prejudices of his colleagues of the Committee. For what is the fact? It is proved that Mr. Moore went through the country preaching peace and moderation. Mr. Moore said to the electors and people what every hon. Gentleman here, who wished to avoid the shoals and breakers of this House, would himself say—"Do not commit any violence; if you do you are my enemy, and not my friend." No doubt, there were occasional disturbances in spite of Mr. Moore's remonstrance. There was occasional excitement, yet no real disturbance; but I assert, as I can establish, it was mainly caused by the supporters of Colonel Higgins. I beg the attention of the house while I proceed to defend an absent man, now not only arraigned at your bar, but at the bar of the public opinion of this country. I allude to that most wronged gentleman, the Rev. Mr. Conway. The Chairman of the Committee has asked why the Rev. Mr. Conway was not examined before the Committee; and the House cheered the question. But do hon. Gentlemen recognise this document which I hold in my hand? It is the Speaker's warrant, which had been served on the Rev. Mr. Conway, not by Mr. Moore or Captain Palmer, but on behalf of Colonel Higgins. Father Conway came from Mayo in obedience to this warrant, and when he arrived in London he presented himself to the agents of Colonel Higgins, and was told by them

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  that he was their witness; two days after they told him he was not their witness. But it is most unfair to Mr. Conway to charge him with not having been examined, when the agents of Colonel Higgins had summoned him over, and when it was in the power of Colonel Higgins' counsel to have examined him. The hon. Chairman grounds his Motion upon two occurrences in which he holds Mr. Conway implicated. First as to his address in the chapel of Ballinrobe. He is accused of having called Colonel Higgins "a consummate scoundrel, and said that "the curse of God would fall on any one who would vote for him," This language I do not justify; but I deny that it was ever used. What is the evidence? The person who swears that he heard the words used, is some poor decrepit old gentleman, who, having got the idea into his bothered head, ran off at once to an active partisan of Colonel Higgins, and committed to writing his version of it, as a good provision for an anticipated petition. But that he used the words "a consummate scoundrel" was denied by three respectable witnesses, who also proved that the more important words were used in quite a different sense. The first witness was Mr. Geoffrey Martin, one of the most respectable men in the county, the chairman of a board of guardians, and a magistrate of thirty years' standing. He denied that Mr. Conway called Colonel Higgins "a consummate scoundrel," and so did two other witnesses. Now, it is the belief of Roman Catholics that they are guilty of a grievous sin if they abstain from mass on Sunday. This is the belief of the Catholic population of Ireland; and by no people in the world is this obligation observed with greater reverence or awe than by the people of Ireland. Thus the stranger might have seen the miserable chapels which up to a recent time existed in that country crowded with worshippers, while the better endowed churches were almost deserted. Now it happened at the last election that several Catholic landlords Kept their Catholic tenants from mass, thus not only, as they were bound to believe, committing a sin themselves, but being the occasion of the sin of others. Mr. Conway did say—as three witnesses deposed—that he hoped the curse of God would not fall upon those Catholic landlords who prevented their Catholic tenants from attending mass; and, whatever opinion Protestant gentlemen may hold with respect to this form of
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  expression, I hold it to be defensible on strict religious grounds. Make it the case of a Protestant minister, of Protestant landlords, and of Protestant tenants, and suppose it a Protestant belief that it was a mortal sin not to go to church on Sunday; and I ask, would it not be the duty of the Protestant minister to reprehend the conduct of those superiors who compelled their dependants to violate, for a mere political purpose, a great religious obligation? Now Mr. Martin had been, as he states, denounced from the altar some years since, and therefore he instinctively listened with close and anxious attention to what fell from Mr. Conway; and he positively swears that the words charged against him were not uttered. Now as to the occurrence on the wall. What are the facts? A party of voters were brought into the town of Ballinrobe, and, instead of taking them down a large open street, they were taken down a narrow lane. Some confusion was caused; and the Rev. Mr. Conway, fearing that a breach of the peace would be the result, and that bad work would follow, got into a yard that overlooked the house, and was pushed up upon a wall, with a slanting top, for the purpose of preventing, and not exciting violence, A respectable witness, Mr. Nicholas Walsh, through whose hands £60,000 of the public money of the country have more than once passed, swears to what Mr. Conway said to him at the time. In answer to question 10,738, he says:—"He requested me to do all I could to keep the parties from throwing stones, or committing any breach of the peace." The same witness says:—"I heard him say to the people outside, to keep quiet, and to commit no act that would be the cause of having it injured." But there is another witness, Mr. James Fleming, who says—" The people were shouting; and Father Conway said any one who would violate the law would be his enemy, not his friend; and he begged of them, for God's sake, and other names he mentioned, to be quiet, and not put themselves in the power of the law." And this is the man who mounted up the wall to hurl horrible imprecations on the head of Colonel Higgins' friends!—the man who in the same breath calls on the people, in the name of God, not to violate the law but to prove his friends by keeping the peace. I ask, is such a statement consistent with reason or probability? And Lieutenaut Grayburn also heard Mr. Conway call on the people not to hurt the

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  soldiers or the police. Was the election carried by violence? I assert it was not; and I place against the evidence of active partisans, the evidence of gentlemen who had no interest whatever in the contest. For instance, take that of Colonel Jasper Creagh, who had great experience of Irish elections, and who speaks of the general quiet which he witnessed. It is true, he saw the troops led to the charge, but, as he states, it was against "imaginary mobs." Colonel Wardlaw, who commanded the Royals, was at Castlebar, and also at Ballinrobe; and that gallant officer could see nothing of the dreadful rioting and violence by which the election was carried. And what Lieutenant Grayburn saw was caused by the folly of voters belonging to Colonel Higgins, when passing through Claremorris. They began to cheer and shout; and, on being told that they were fools to do so, as they would be sure to draw a crowd, they repeated their challenge to disturbance, and a slight row was the consequence. Now such being the real state of things, I say it is too hard, not only on my hon. Friend Mr. Moore, but upon the electors of Mayo, that he should have been visited with the deprivation of his seat, and they with the denial of their right to return the representative of their choice. I say this straining of the law is a dangerous principle, and hon. Gentlemen who now hear me may yet find it so to their own personal cost. If, indeed, a general state of excitement and violence existed, the result of a widespread conspiracy, by which voters were prevented from going to the poll, although the candidate was not conscious of such a state of things, a Committee might, according to the spirit and meaning of the law, visit the candidate with the penalty by depriving him of his seat, so obtained. But the late election of Mayo was not a case of the kind; and save £ few isolated cases of indiscretion, then was nothing whatever to mark it from the most peaceable and orderly election. The Chairman of the Committee observed that the system of intimidation and priestly influence began with Dr. M'Hale. Now while the archbishop in question had a perfect right to express his opinion as to the duty which constituents owed their country, of returning to Parliament honest, upright and faithful men as their representatives, I am prepared to show that that which has been described as "an unseemly election mandate," reflected the
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  highest credit on its illustrious author [Laughter.] I treat that laugh with the most perfect philosophy, and understand its motive thoroughly. But what did the archbishop say? Here is the concluding passage of his Pastoral:—
  "Whatever may be the issue of these angry elections, you will not forget to deport yourselves with the wisdom becoming your holy station; to inculcate among the people, often goaded to excitement, the quiet ferbearance becoming men engaged in a noble and victorious contest; and to breathe forth from the sanctuary the calm and holy spirit of peace over the troubled waters. We trust hat amidst the most stormy scenes the electors will not fail to remember, that, whilst they are struggling for the assertion of their rights, their clergy are engaged in stretching out their hands in prayer for the success of religion and social order, and imploring the Almighty that riot and intoxication and bribery should not bring down His wrath upon the land; and that hatreds, or violence, or enmities should not embitter those contests that have been so unseasonably cast into that great work of peace and mercy that commemorates the reconciliation of earth with an offended Heaven."
  Now, do those words, I ask the House, convey an incentive to undue excitement; or do they not, on the contrary, breathe a spirit of peace and conciliation, worthy of the position of that eminent person.
  MR. SCHOLEFIELD: I beg to assure the hon. Gentleman I did not allude to the Pastoral, but to certain resolutions bearing the signature of Dr. M'Hale.
  MR. MAGUIRE: Even so, the phrase used by the hon. Gentleman does not apply to those resolutions. Why did he not rend them to the House? I did read them, and they contained nothing reprehensible or improper. But other resolutions, appealing to the worst passions, to the bitterest sectarian animosity, emanated from the other side; and no notice was taken of them. This investigation has satisfied me more fully on one point—the danger of not having a sound lawyer put in the chair, to say what evidence should be received, and what rejected; for such decisions were scarcely ever come to by any judicial body, as with reference to certain evidence either received, or rejected by the Mayo Committee. Not only what such a man said, but what such a man heard another man say, was admitted by the Committee—evidence that would be rejected by any bench of magistrates sitting in petty sessions. Thus, for instance, gentlemen who did not know one word of Irish, gave evidence of cursing in that language. As well might an Englishman who knew no language save his own,

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  listen to the conversation of a number of Frenchmen, and then come forward and swear that he heard them conspiring against the Emperor of the French. The Fact is, the Chairman is a good natured, easy gentleman, and was bullied by lawyers—very vulgar lawyers too—and thus he and his colleagues received hearsay evidence upon the most important points. The case is now in the hands of the House; and I call upon hon. Gentlemen to beware how they sanction a manifest straining of the law against a Member of their House who is made to suffer not only for no act of his, but in spite of his earnest efforts to preserve order and quiet. I also call on the House to give weight to the testimony of impartial witnesses, both as to the character of the election, and the conduct of the priests; and that testimony shows that there was a total absence of organized violence and real disturbance; and that the charges against the priests are, as I have shown in the case of the Rev. Mr. Conway, the result of misrepresentation, partizanship, and gross exaggeration.
  MR. BAILLIEsaid, he should not enter into the merits of the evidence which had been laid before the Committee, but should confine himself to a simple statement of the reasons why the House, in his opinion, ought to pause before they gave their assent to the very unusual course which the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Scholefield) asked them to adopt. He was opposed to the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman, because it tended to violate the rights of the electors of the county of Mayo, simply because two priests who were non-electors bad committed an infringement of the law. He should not, of course, object to any proposition which had in view the prosecution and punishment of those priests, should they be found guilty, but their conduct he should maintain afforded no good reason why the electors of Mayo should be deprived of their electoral privileges.
  MR. DRUMMONDsaid, he meant to vote for the issue of the writ for the County of Mayo, but he should be sorry to do so for the reasons which had been submitted to the House by the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire). That hon. Member indeed, appeared to be so strongly imbued with the spirit of the evidence which had been laid before the Committee by Dr. M'Hale, that he was evidently quite as ready to evade the real question at issue as
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  that right rev. Prelate had been to shuffle out of the questions which had been put to him. The hon. Gentleman had read an extract from a manifesto of Dr. M'Hale, which was not that which was most material as evidence against him, and had observed that the denunciations of the priests had been directed, not against persons who might vote for Colonel Higgins, but against those who, in consequence of not attending mass on Sundays, were deemed to have committed a mortal sin. [Mr. MAGUIRE: "Hear, hear!"] The hon. Gentleman might cry "hear, hear!" but he had cleverly evaded all reference to the evidence of those parties who had themselves stated that they had been denounced for reasons connected with the election. The blue-book, which few hon. Gentlemen, probably, had perused, but which, unfortunately, he had read, showed that the priests had systematically denounced, in the most solemn and awful terms, all persons who did not vote for their candidate. There was no question about this, and he would like to see the form of indictment for spiritual intimidation. He had told the House thirty years ago what would occur, and they were now reaping the fruits of their legislation. Just as was the case in Austria and in Spain, the priests were dominant and the poor degraded people suffered. "There you have it," concluded the hon. Gentleman, "and make the best of it."
  MR. PULLER, as a member of the Committee, wished to say, with reference to the statements of the hon. Member for Dungarvan, that although evidence of partiality on the part of the High Sheriff was adduced before the Committee, they did not notice such evidence in their Report, because neither the High Sheriff nor the gentleman appointed by him to various offices were in any way on trial before the Committee. No charges were made against them in the petition, and, with one or two exceptions, they were not present to defend themselves. The evidence, too, which impeached their conduct was all given by witnesses brought forward by the sitting Member. The case with regard to the priests was entirely different. The petition distinctly charged that there was a combination among the whole body of priests in the diocese to carry the election by spiritual intimidation. The priests were therefore upon their trial quite as much as Mr. Moore. The hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire) had raised

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  the question whether the election was or was not void; but that was a question with which the House had nothing to do, because the Committee, discharging a judicial duty, had determined the matter, and their decision was final. It was possible some evidence might have been admitted which would have been rejected in the Queen's Bench, but every question raised by counsel with regard to the evidence had received the patient and impartial consideration of the Committee. He felt, therefore, perfectly at ease with regard to the charge of admitting improper evidence. The hon. Gentleman had also referred to the conduct of Mr. Moore. The Committee had acquitted Mr. Moore, and had stated that although persons acting for him as agents had unfortunately committed him to a breach of the law by intimidation and undue influence, he did not appear to have been cognizant of their acts. It was, therefore, quite unnecessary for the hon. Gentleman to vindicate Mr. Moore. With regard to the conduct of the priests, however, he (Mr. Puller) was confident the great body of gentlemen of the Roman Catholic persuasion would repudiate their acts as strongly as any Protestant could do. He thought the hon. Gentleman had shown considerable want of judgment in alluding to the Pastoral of Archbishop M'Hale, which directed the priests to remind their flocks that amid all the scenes of election riot and debauchery they were praying that peace and tranquillity might reign throughout the diocese. But when he found that these very priests were engaged almost to a man in acting as election agents, in bringing up reluctant voters to the poll, in controlling, and in some cases heading mobs, in dragging people from their cars, he thought the reference to the Pastoral was most unfortunate. It was proved before the Committee that similar violence and intimidation had occurred at previous election; but when Archbishop M'Hale was asked whether he had ever suspended or dismissed a single priest for disobedience to his orders, his reply was, "No; no complaint has ever been made to me." Was it necessary that the Archbishop, with the power he possessed, should wait for a formal complaint before he investigated misconduct on the part of priests who had been denounced by a Committee of that House? It appeared to him (Mr. Puller) that the question the House had now to determine was, whether the late Act of Parliament which provided that the exercise
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  of undue influence should be equally punishable with bribery and treating should be a dead letter or not. If the House considered that intimidation ought to be suppressed, they would catch at the first just and fair opportunity of enforcing the law.
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, the observations which were proved before the Committee to have been made by priests in the Irish language, had been faithfully interpreted according to the admission of Mr. Buchanan, a gentleman acquainted with that language, who was counsel for Mr. Moore. There was another point which the hon. Gentleman had adverted to which he felt bound to notice, and he did so with great pain. The hon. Gentleman had cast an insinuation upon the High Sheriff for requiring a sum of £200 to be paid down in notes or gold as a security on the day of nomination, and refusing to take a cheque for that amount.
  MR. MAGUIREbegged to say that all he had to complain of on the part of the High Sheriff was, that he had been guilty of omission, not commission, and certainly, as regarded the £200, he had not imputed any unworthy motive to him.
  COLONEL NORTHwas very glad to hear that statement, as it relieved him from a very painful duty. He would only add, that the evidence which had been brought before the Committee, as affected the whole proceedings at the election, disclosed a most astonishing state of things—a state of things, however, which appeared to be regarded as a matter of course in that county. If the writs were now issued, what security was there that there would be greater impartiality on the part of the same High Sheriff at the election which would take place? He could only add as one of five Protestants who had had to decide upon a Roman Catholic case, that himself and his colleagues had not allowed themselves to be influenced by any religious predilection. He himself was a firm Protestant, but he had too many Roman Catholic friends, and had served too long with Roman Catholics, not to feel a strong respect for them, and he had endeavoured to act, as had all the other Members of the Committee, with the most perfect impartiality; but he could not help saying, that it would be a perfect farce to issue a new writ at present unless the House was content that Archbishop M'Hale should return the Member for the county of Mayo.
  MR. BUTTsaid, he felt considerable interest in the question because he had had some experience of Mayo elections. He had once been a candidate for the representation of that county, and he believed that he owed his defeat entirely to the influence of the Roman Catholic clergy; but at the same time he felt himself under obligations to many persons connected with that county, from which it was proposed to take away for the present the right of being represented in Parliament. He himself believed that the influence of the priests was declining in Mayo, and the proof of that was that at the last election Colonel Higgins, opposed as he was by the priests, and, also as he was by the territorial interest, polled upwards of a thousand votes. The next election would, he believed, be a perfectly fair and just one; and if the House refused to allow the writ to issue they would be laying down the dangerous precedent of punishing a constituency for the illegal acts of persons who were not electors. If any proceedings were going to be taken, such as disfranchising a portion of the electors, the case would be different, but certainly, with no proceedings contemplated as regarded the electors of Mayo, that House ought to pause before it decided that a constituency should be deprived of a representative in consequence of the misconduct of certain non-electors. It had been suggested that the writ should be withheld until the prosecution of the two priests had been carried into effect; but that would only be to say to the electors of the county of Mayo, "Until you find those priests guilty, you shall be deprived of a representative;" and the House, if it adopted that course, would be overriding the legal right of that constituency, and exceeding the powers which had been conferred upon it by the constitution.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, he wished to put a question to the Attorney General for Ireland, arising out of the circumstances now before the House. The hon. and learned Gentleman was no doubt familiar with the Ecclesiastical Titles Act and with the evidence given before the Mayo Election Committee; he (Mr. Bentinck) might remind him and the House that Dr. M'Hale, on presenting himself as a witness before the Committee, stated, in reply to a question from the chairman, that he was certain he was Archbishop of Tuam. He (Mr. Bentinck) had to ask the Attorney General for Ireland if he was of opinion that the answer given by Dr. M'Hale on
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  that occasion was in contravention of the statute to which he had referred, and, if he was of that opinion, whether he was prepared to take any steps to vindicate the law?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I am certainly prepared to vote for the Amendment of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Scholefield). I do not concur with the hon. and learned Gentleman who spoke last but one (Mr. Butt) when he says we are proceeding to punish the electors of Mayo. On the contrary, it seems to me that the tendency of our proceeding to-night is to protect the electors of Mayo. It appears that a great deal of most undue influence has been exerted at the last election on the electors of Mayo to compel them to vote in a particular manner. That undue influence attracted the attention of, the Committee, and it is now proposed that legal proceedings shall be taken, the object of which is to prevent a repetition of that improper and undue influence. I say, if it is fitting, which I think it is, that those legal proceedings shall be taken, it follows as a matter of inference that a new election should not take place until the law should determine whether that undue influence is or is not such as to deserve punishment. I think, therefore, it is right to protect the electors of Mayo from the exertion of that undue influence until it shall be ascertained, which it will be before the next Session of Parliament, whether the misconduct of the priests is or is not punishable by law. The electors of Mayo will suffer no injury by the postponement of the election, because, if the election were now ordered, the return could hardly be made before the end of the present Session, and therefore it would be no injury or inconvenience to them that during the period of the recess they should not be represented.
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, he perfectly agreed with the noble Lord in thinking that so far as the constituency of Mayo was concerned no great constitutional harm would arise from the delay of the writ; but there was a much more serious question than that for the House to decide. He found it was in contemplation to move that the Attorney General for Ireland be directed to prosecute the Revs. Peter Conway and Luke Ryan. If that House, which was called the great inquest of the nation, should turn its attention to the prosecution of those two individuals, it ought, before coming to a decision, to consider what the result of such a proceeding

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  would be on the public mind. But to whom was it proposed to delegate the conduct of that prosecution? Why, to the Attorney General for Ireland, who, after the election of 1852, when he did not, as now, sit on the Treasury Bench, in a speech of nearly two hours' duration in that House, defended one of the greatest outrages that had ever taken place in Ireland, on the occasion of the return of a Member to sit in that assembly, and charged Her Majesty's troops—the gallant soldiers of England—with deliberately firing on an unarmed, innocent, and peaceable mob. ["Oh! oh!"] Hon. Gentlemen on the Ministerial side of the House might murmur, but they did not know the circumstances. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ennis on that occasion deliberately contended that priestly influence was justifiable for the purpose of swaying the votes of the constituency. He (Lord C. Hamilton) would say, if the Government wanted this prosecution to go on after that, and if they wanted it conducted impartially, let them put it into other hands. He charged them not to let that investigation be carried out by one who, whatever his merits—and he (Lord C. Hamilton) acknowledged the hon. and learned Gentleman had legal talent—had on the occasion to which he had just referred made a fatal and unfortunate exhibition of partiality, and preferred charges against the magistracy, the soldiers, and the constabulary, which would remain in evidence against him so long as that House existed. He (Lord C. Hamilton), for one at least, would never be a party to an arrangement which would delegate to the hon. and learned Gentleman the power of conducting the criminal prosecution in question, believing, as he did, that such a proceeding would be a mockery, an injury, and an insult to the people of Ireland.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, he had not, for obvious reasons, intended to take part in the discussion; but the attack which the noble Lord, with so much taste and discretion, had made upon him rendered it necessary for him to say a few words. The speech which had been raked up by the noble Lord was one of the first which he made in that House, and in it he brought no charges against the police or the magistrates or the soldiery, but simply defended an absent friend, the then Attorney General for Ireland, in reference to a transaction in which he had taken a
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  considerable part. It was not by way of attack on the military that he pointed out that a riot had taken place, that a panic had ensued, that some one gave the order to fire, and that the firing continued after the necessity for it had ceased. He never said that there was not a riot, or that stones were not thrown, or that no circumstance occurred to bring about the casualty which led to a deplorable effusion of blood. He was prepared to defend all he had said on that occasion on a proper occasion. The attack of the noble Lord was unfounded, and he defied political malignity itself to fix a blot or stain upon his character or conduct. If the House directed a prosecution against those two rev. gentlemen, he could assure them it might be safely intrusted to his hands, and that it would be carried out with fearlessness, impartiality, and vigour. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for West Norfolk (Mr. Bentinck), it was in reply to a question as to what was his position in the Roman Catholic Church that Archbishop M'Hale said he was Archbishop of Tuam. The Chairman very properly explained the law, and said the Committee were willing to recognize the title of Archbishop, but could not recognize that of Archbishop of Tuam. The Archbishop replied that he had not obtruded the title on the Committee, that he did not wish to do anything offensive, but, the question having been put, he felt bound to say that he did believe, and was certain, he was Archbishop of Tuam; at the same time, if that were not his legal identification, he was quite satisfied with the title of Archbishop M'Hale. The hon. Member asked, upon that passage in the blue-book, whether Archbishop M'Hale had been guilty of an infraction of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act. His impression was that Archbishop M'Hale was not guilty of any infraction of the statute, and he would remind the House that the Committee had not directed any suit to be instituted for the recovery of the penalty. By the Act the suit was not to be instituted by the Attorney General, but by some other person with the Attorney General's consent. With regard to the troops being placed under the orders of partisan magistrates, the Government took special precautions that such a thing should not take place in Mayo or any other county, inasmuch as they issued a circular, directing commanding officers to pay the same attention to the orders of local magistrates, whether

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  or not they held the sheriff's deputation, to act upon their own discretion when the orders were conflicting, and, whenever possible, to take them from a stipendiary magistrate. He believed that in every instance in Mayo the orders were given by a stipendiary magistrate.
  MR. BOWYER, who rose amid cries for a division, said, that the impatience of the House was a reason why they should not decide at half-past one o'clock upon a grave constitutional question. They were called upon at that time to decide not only whether or not a writ should issue for the county of Mayo, but whether they would throw the whole weight of the House of Commons against two humble persons, and the House was impatient of hearing him on behalf of the accused. There was conflicting evidence before the Committee, and the balance was in favour of the accused. What was spiritual intimidation? Far be it from him to say that a priest ought to use, or to induce others to use, violence, either at an election or at any other time. Such a course was contrary to the discipline of the Catholic Church, and to the wishes and injunctions of the Holy See. The misgovernment of Ireland and the maintenance of the Established Church there had, however, obliged the people to look up to the clergy as the only persons who could protect them and advise them with reference to the important duties of their country which they had to perform. Therefore, if a clergyman said or did an indiscreet thing, it was not for the House of Commons, which had forced him against his will into this position, to take a strong course in the matter. In the present case, unless they had Judges who would strain and wrest the law, it would be impossible to prove any offence. The charge made by the Chairman of the Committee was that curses were used against persons who voted for Colonel Higgins. That was denied. He had the authority of Father Conway to deny it. It was asked why he did not deny it before the Committee, but the fact was that he was summoned as a witness for the petitioners; and why was he not called? What Father Conway did was to denounce the Roman Catholic landlords who prevented their tenants from going to mass on a Sunday, and to say that he hoped the curse of God might not fall upon them. Supposing, however, that he had told the people that, if they voted for a person whom he believed to be an enemy of the Church, they would do wrong, was
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  that an offence? He maintained that it was not. It was not an offence if Father Conway did it, and he did not do it at all. He asked whether on this conflicting evidence, on these doubtful facts and still more doubtful law, they were prepared to become parties to an act which would excite the just indignation of the people of Ireland? The noble Viscount at the head of the Government bad got a great majority by his fortunate legerdemain of the cry about the Chinese war, and he fancied that he could do anything he pleased, but if the Government began to persecute the clergy of Ireland, they would find that they had undertaken a most dangerous task, and that the people would rise as one man to defend their clergy. The consequences would be such that they would rue the day when they commenced this course of persecution. [Cries of "Divide!"] Hon. Members were anxious to divide. They might divide, and would probably carry this Amendment. They would go home to bed, and would think they had done a fine thing, but what would they have done? This prosecution of two priests on this loose evidence and looser law, would produce in Ireland an effect of which they little dreamt. It would awaken the indignation of the people, and they would rue the day when they undertook this course. ["Oh, oh!"] He said they would. They thought they were merely prosecuting two humble and inoffensive individuals ["Oh, oh!"]; that they were prosecuting two poor priests; but they would find that they were prosecuting the people of Ireland.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 29; Noes 153: Majority 124.
  Words added; main Question, as amended, proposed.
  MR. BRADYmoved the adjournment of the House in order to allow time for further consideration.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONthought that the House had, in the last division, practically decided the question which Mr. Speaker had just put from the chair. It was not usual, except in extraordinary circumstances, to take two divisions upon what really amounted to one question. At all events there was at that moment a very good attendance of hon. Members, and he saw no reason why they should not proceed with the discussion if it were thought necessary to continue it any longer.
  COLONEL FRENCHdid not think that one-fourth of the House should undertake

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  to decide a question so important as the prosecution of two clergymen. There were several Catholic Members who wished to take part in the discussion, and he thought an adjournment should take place in order to allow them to do so.
  Motion made and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
  The House divided:—Ayes 16; Noes 149: Majority 133.
  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Ordered, "That Mr. Attorney General for Ireland be directed to prosecute the Reverend Peter Conway and the Reverend Luke Ryan."
  MR. SCHOLEFIELDthen moved that the issue of a new writ for Mayo county be suspended during the present Session.
  MR. WHITESIDEhoped it was not intended to suspend the writ until next spring, when the clergymen referred to would be tried. One of the complaints which had been raised before the late Committee was, that the High Sheriff had acted partially, and therefore care ought to be taken that the same objection should, not arise at the next election.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONreminded the hon. Gentleman that the present Motion only applied to the present Session, and it would be competent to any Member in the next Session to move the issue of the writ.
  MR. MAGUIREthought the decision the Mouse had just arrived at was that no new writ should be issued until the clergymen mentioned should have been tried. That at least had been the explanation of the noble Lord. He would urge the complaint already made, that there had not been a fair return at the last election, owing to the partiality of the High Sheriff.
  MR. NAPIERremarked that the High Sheriff only held office at the pleasure of the Lord Lieutenant, and therefore the Government had the power of removing all complaint upon that ground.
  MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, the case was as the right hon. Gentleman had described it.
  COLONEL FRENCHreminded the House that the riots at Kidderminster were far more serious than those which had occurred at Mayo. In the former case the right hon. Member's (Mr. Lowe's) life was endangered, but it was not proposed therefore that the right hon. Member should be excluded from the House until the offenders were punished.
  COLONEL NORTHcould not help observing
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  that the High Sheriff of Mayo had had no opportunity of vindicating himself.
  Motion made and Question put, "That the issue of a Writ for the election of a Knight of the Shire for the County of Mayo be suspended during the present Session."
  The House divided:—Ayes 128; Noes 21: Majority, 107.
  MR. BOWYER MR. BOWYER moved that the House do now adjourn.
  MR. MAGUIREasked whether it was intended by the Government to institute proceedings against the High Sheriff of Mayo for his alleged misconduct at the late election?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONwas not sufficiently aware what the alleged misconduct of the High Sheriff was, to be able to answer the question.
  Motion by leave withdrawn.
  House adjourned at Three o'clock.

MINUTES.
TOOK THE OATHS.—The Duke of Brandon.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Parochial Schoolmasters (Scotland).
2a Fraudulent Trustees, &c.; Trustees Relief; Reformatory Institutions; Public Works (Ireland); Turnpike Acts Continuance; Banking.
3a Prisoners Removal.

FRAUDULENT TRUSTEES, &c., BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the second reading of this Bill, stated that it had come up from the other House of Parliament, where it had been introduced by his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General, its object being to remedy what was generally felt to be a serious defect in our existing system of law. As the law had been handed down, not as a written code, but in a traditionary form from remote ages, it partook very much of the characteristics of the early state of society to which it had originally been adapted. This was particularly the case with reference to the fraudulent appropriation of trust property. It dealt with the matter in a way which was sufficient, no doubt, in a state of society when personal property consisted only of chattels properly so called; but it was certainly not very applicable to the wants of the present day, when personal estate admitted of very complicated relations. The difficulty now experienced was this:— The trustee was the legal owner of the property committed to his charge, and the law, therefore, did not meet a case in which he improperly applied that property, which in the eye of the law belonged to him and not to the beneficial owner. Every one admitted that this was a technical rule which required to be remedied. Now, this Bill proposed that if any person, being a trustee, should, with intent to defraud, convert or appropriate the trust property or any part of it to his own use, he should be guilty of a misdemeanour. He had never heard any objection advanced to the principle of this measure, but objections to its details of a technical nature had, he believed, been started. It was said that it would be extremely difficult to define what should constitute a person a trustee; but he thought that for all practical purposes this difficulty was
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  sufficiently met by the interpretation clause, which provided that a trustee shall include an executor, administrator, or assignee in bankruptcy or insolvency; and he did not believe any serious difficulty would arise on the point. The next clause to which objection had been taken was one which had been introduced during the passage of the Bill through the other House, and which in his opinion would require very great consideration and amendment—indeed, some of their Lordships thought it should be struck out altogether, on the ground that, having once defined the offence, they should leave the parties interested to their discretion as to prosecuting, as in other cases. This clause was the 12th, which provided that no prosecution should be instituted against a trustee under this Bill without the sanction of some one of the Judges of the superior courts of law or equity, or of the Attorney General. Now, to make the Judge who would eventually, perhaps, have to try the case, act as a sort of grand jury beforehand was a course open to great objection, and he should therefore feel bound to vary the clause upon this point. There was not the same difficulty in providing that the sanction of the Attorney General should be obtained. That was a principle not unknown to our law, for in revenue prosecutions and some others no proceedings could take place without the previous consent of this functionary. He (The Lord Chancellor) was willing, therefore, to provide for the previous sanction of some legal functionary before a prosecution could be instituted against a trustee, because, considering the difficulty of deciding what were and what were not misapplications of trust funds, it ought not to be in the power of a disappointed beneficiary to cast upon the trustee at his pleasure a slur of a criminal prosecution. The second section of the Bill rendered merchants, bankers, and brokers, criminally liable who fraudulently sold and applied for their own purposes the property entrusted to them. This was merely a small extension of the law as it stood at present. They were liable at present if there was a written direction as to its disposal; but there was no reason for such a restriction, and the Bill extended the liability to all property, however entrusted to them. Another section provided for a most strange incident connected with our law, the existence of which persons unlearned in the law would

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  with difficulty credit. If a carrier fraudulently made away with a parcel intrusted to him for delivery, the law did not hold him guilty of any misdemeanour. He became the baillee, and was only responsible civilly to the owner of the property. This, no doubt, was owing to the fact that the offence in such a case did not answer the old form of indictment, cepit et asportavit— carrier did not take and carry away, because the property was given to him; but if he broke open the parcel, and sold part of the contents, he was guilty of larceny. This Bill took away this assumed distinction, and constituted this offence a misdemeanour. Serious injury had resulted of late to large bodies of shareholders from the malpractices of directors and others; and this Bill rendered it a misdemeanour on the part of directors or officers fraudulently to misappropriate the money of the company, to keep fraudulent accounts, to wilfully destroy books, or publish fraudulent statements. These were the principal provisions of the measure, which would only put the law upon the footing on which it now rested in Scotland, and he hoped, therefore, their Lordships would consent to give the Bill a second reading.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
  LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, he did not rise to oppose this Bill; on the contrary, he approved a great portion of it, and gave it his hearty concurrence; but he very much lamented that it should have been found necessary to make trustees the subject of such highly penal provisions in case of their misapplication of trust funds. No doubt if a trustee, not meaning to act dishonestly, but having the control of trust money, was induced by some tempting speculation to invest that money and so lost it, the beneficial owner suffered grievous wrong. If, however, he (Lord St. Leonards) were asked who upon the whole had suffered most—persons entitled to trust money by the acts of their trustees, or trustees by misapprehension and neglect through being pursued by the beneficial owners and compelled to make good the losses to the estate, he should be inclined to say that greater hardship was sustained by trustees in the honest discharge of their duties than was occasioned to beneficiaries by the acts of dishonest trustees. He could not but regret that it had been proposed to inflict so serious a punishment as penal servitude upon defaulting trustees, because he believed that under
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  such a law it would be very difficult indeed, and almost impossible, to find any man who would consent to become a trustee. The Bill did not distinctly define who should be considered a trustee under it, if it should become law. There was much of the Bill which he approved. It was a great improvement on the Bill which was at first submitted to Parliament on this subject. The more he looked at it the stronger became his conviction that no honest trustee would be much endangered by its becoming law, but trustees in general would apprehend great danger from it. There had been many instances in which men of perfect honour had invested money belonging to those for whom they were trustees for their own benefit in speculations of different sorts. Nobody could defend that. If there was a profit those trustees put it into their own pockets, but if there was a loss it fell upon those for whom they were trustees. Nevertheless, the courts in this country had been accustomed to deal leniently with such cases, when it was clear that there was no intention to defraud. It would be necessary to take care in defining what persons came within the Act as trustees; he thought the interpretation clause, to which his noble and learned Friend had referred, did not meet the difficulty. Their Lordships were aware that he had laid on the table a Bill to relieve trustees who acted honestly, though erroneously, from the liabilities to which they were at present exposed. He had already explained the nature of that Bill, which he hoped might pass into law, because he felt confident that unless the Legislature relieved trustees from liability in respect of innocent breaches of trust, men would refuse to act as trustees. Their Lordships should bear in mind what was the relationship between a trustee and his cestui que trust. It had always been of a confidential nature. That confidence might have been abused, but surely those trustees who had, without any fraudulent intent, and in mere ignorance, committed a breach of trust, ought to be protected against penal consequences. Latterly, owing to the difficulty of obtaining private trustees, the office of trustee and executor had become a mere trade, and the late South Sea Company had proposed to establish themselves a limited liability company for the purpose of performing for a certain profit the office of trustee and executor; their Bill had, however, partly owing to his own exertions, been defeated; but companies of that sort

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  must thereafter be resorted to unless the Legislature took care how they dealt with trustees who had no intention to defraud. He understood that some parties were availing themselves of the Limited Liability Act to establish such a company. He (Lord St. Leonards) entirely objected to the principle of such a company. Hitherto the office of trustee had been filled without the trustee receiving a single shilling of remuneration for his labour. If heavy responsibilities were now to be imposed by the law upon trustees, the Legislature ought to enact that trustees should be legally entitled to remuneration. But how were they to estimate the labour of trustees? If trustees were to be expected to sacrifice their time and risk their property gratuitously, the law ought not to deal harshly with them. He concurred with his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack in thinking that that part of the Bill which enacted that a prosecution against a trustee should require the sanction of one of the Judges ought to be amended, because if a man were sent to trial upon the recommendation of a Judge, his case would be thereby prejudged, and he would be sent, as it were, with a halter round his neck.
  LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he need hardly remind their Lordships how anxious he had always been for a measure of this sort, and how repeatedly he had complained of the great defect and worse than anomaly in our law—an anomaly unknown to the law of every other country in the world—by which a breach of trust, instead of being an aggravation of the offence, as it clearly ought to be, was a means of escape from all punishment, and a crime was converted into a mere debt. On his suggestion, the Law Amendment Society had appointed a committee to inquire into this subject, and its members found that criminal breaches of trust, frauds, and thefts by trustees and quasi trustees, many of whom were executors, were of much more frequent occurrence than they had expected. It was found, also, that these breaches of trust chiefly took place among persons of moderate circumstances, such as small tradesmen and others. Individuals in the higher ranks of life had the protection of professional advice and assistance, and it was very rare that frauds could be committed upon them. It was a very ordinary case, that if a poor man succeeded to the value of £400 or £500 in stock-in-trade, he was compelled to proceed against the executor for payment—the latter having appropriated, not
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  perhaps the whole, but the greater part of the funds intrusted to him, and the poor man being thus deprived of his bequest. The case of a fraud and breach of trust by an executor so frequently occurred, indeed, that the late Mr. Bell, one of the most celebrated lawyers of the day, used to relate an anecdote on this subject of a family in Westmorland. Three or four of the sons were one day talking about the profession they should choose. One said, "I will be a farmer;" another said he would be a merchant; another, that he would be a soldier. One boy, however, to the surprise of the others, exclaimed, "I will be an executor." They said, "Why will you be an executor?" "Because," he replied, "ever since father has been an executor we have never been without meat in our house." He mentioned this story in illustration of his position that it was among persons of moderate circumstances that these frauds most commonly occurred. He knew of a case in which a man of rank and fame in the profession of the law spent the whole of the property of his two infant wards, died insolvent, and left them upon the parish. There was even an instance of a learned Judge who wasted the property of his infant ward. He thought the Bill well framed in not going too far, and that great improvements had been adopted in it since it was first printed. A greater offence could not be committed than by an ordinary trustee in gambling with the funds committed to his charge, he gaining all the profits where the speculation was successful. There could be no doubt that, if trust property so employed in speculation could be traced, the trustee could be made accountable to the person whose property he held in trust, who would be entitled to the whole of the profits so made. The difficulty of reaching some descriptions of trustees and agents might be got over by the principle of payment. In Scotland a fraud was considered of an aggravated character if it were committed by a trustee. He was informed by some of his friends among the Scottish Judges that the operation of the law in that country was highly satisfactory, and that the law was so well known and the hazard incurred by the trustee was so great, that an instance rarely occurred of a criminal prosecution for this offence. Those learned persons, therefore, rejoiced to find that England was taking a leaf out of their book to the great benefit of English jurisprudence, and in that congratulation he fully participated.
  LORD WENSLEYDALEsaid, he should not oppose the second reading of the Bill, which he was of opinion contained some provisions which were well entitled to their Lordships' consideration. The measure had been very much improved in its progress through the other House of Parliament, but it was, he thought, susceptible of still further amendment. He did not, for instance, concur in the expediency of passing into a law that portion of it which required that, before a prosecution should be instituted, the sanction of a Judge or of the Attorney General should be obtained. The sanction of the latter functionary was no doubt rendered necessary under the existing law, in those cases in which questions relating to the revenue, or to a violation of the laws connected with the press, or points of great political importance were involved; but no such sanction was required under the operation of any other Act of a nature similar to that under their Lordships' notice. The objection, however, which he entertained to the Bill upon that ground was one which could be dealt with in Committee.
  Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Tuesday next.

  MILITIA BALLOTS SUSPENSION BILL.
  On Motion for going into Committee, according to order,
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsuggested to the noble Lord the Secretary for War that it would be advisable not to press on the Bill at present. It was impossible to say what turn the present state of affairs might take or what steps it might be necessary to take in the next fortnight to strengthen the military resources of the country, and he thought, therefore, that it would be advisable not to press on the Bill at present.
  LORD PANMUREbelieved that any man who attempted to put into execution a compulsory ballot would totally fail. For his own part he had great confidence in the patriotic spirit of the people of this country, and he thought that under the voluntary system it would be quite possible to make any addition to the military strength of the country that might be deemed necessary. He could not therefore think that any advantage would arise from postponing the Bill.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONhoped that the confidence of the noble Lord was not
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  misplaced, but he feared that in consequence of what had taken place in Ireland on disbanding the militia, he might find more difficulty in raising the militia in that country than he anticipated. He quite concurred in the suggestion of the noble Earl to postpone the measure.
  House in Committee: Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.

  DISTRIBUTION OF PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE rose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the propriety of supplying, under certain regulations, free libraries and other literary institutions of the United Kingdom with the Reports and Returns which are printed by the order of Parliament. A few years ago a Committee of the other House of Parliament was appointed to consider whether it would be desirable to distribute Parliamentary papers to those institutions, and that Committee reported very favourably upon the subject; but that Report had never been acted upon. He most certainly did not advocate such a measure so much for the benefit of any particular institution as for that of the public at large, for he believed that it would be a great national advantage that the mass of Parliamentary information, which was yearly increasing in value, should be placed within the reach of the public. All that was said in Parliament was daily communicated to the public, much to their advantage, through the instrumentality of the public press; while the Reports upon which a great portion of their legislation was founded were practically unknown to the general body of the people. It was true that those papers had been made saleable, but that step had not been attended with the result which had been anticipated, for the public generally did not know through what instrumentality they could obtain those papers; and, as booksellers received no profit upon them, they had no interest in giving any information upon the subject. In the United States there was a most liberal dispensation of such papers, for all the papers, not only of the Federal Legislature, but also all those of the Legislatures of the various States were sent to the different literary institutions. In this country the principle had been admitted to a limited extent, for the papers connected with the

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  Committee of Council on Education and the Board of Health were circulated among the literary institutions throughout the country. He was aware that it would be necessary to exercise great discrimination as to the institutions to which those papers should be sent; but there was one class to which they might be certainly sent, and that was the class of institutions which had been established under what was called Mr. Ewart's Act, in such towns as Liverpool, Leeds, Hull, Oxford, and other places. One advantage of distributing those papers would be, to extend information to those who had not the opportunity of seeing the papers themselves, because in county towns members of the press would have access to them, and would no doubt circulate the information which they might contain through the medium of their respective journals. The expense would not be very great; indeed, he believed that Mr. Hansard in his evidence before the Committee had estimated it at £1,500 a year—so that he did not think that any objection could be raised on that score. If the principle which he advocated were adopted it would then become necessary to consider under whose management the circulation of those papers should be placed, and there were two plans, either of which might be adopted. It might be placed under the management of one of the numerous departments of the Government connected with science and art, or it might be placed under the control of a Committee of the other House, to be appointed at the commencement of every Session. He said a Committee of the other House of Parliament because, while all the papers which were laid on their Lordships' table were presented to the House of Commons, many documents which were laid before that House were never presented to their Lordships. His object in calling attention to this subject at this period of the Session was, that the Government might consider the Report of the Committee which sat four or five years ago, and might, before the commencement of the next Session, be prepared with some method of carrying its recommendation into effect.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that his noble Friend to whose department this question more particularly belonged (Earl Granville) was unavoidably absent, having gone down to a distant part of the country; but as the noble Duke had come to the conclusion that the expense which
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  would be involved by communicating these papers would not exceed £1,500 a year, he might, he thought, take upon himself to say that, on the ground of expense, there could be no great objection to the noble Duke's proposition. The difficulty he saw, however, was one to which his noble Friend had very slightly adverted, namely, the abridgment of the papers; he believed his noble Friend used the term "abridgment."
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE: No; "selection."
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: Then the question was who should make the selection? And whether it should it be the Department of Science and Art or the Committee of Council on Education was, in his opinion, well worthy of consideration. He might, however, answer for his noble Friend (Earl Granville) that he would not fail to attend to the suggestions made by the noble Duke.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that whatever arrangements were ultimately determined upon, care should be taken that these papers were not sent to parties to whom they would be of little or no value. He would suggest, therefore, that with the view of testing the anxiety of public institutions to possess themselves of these papers, they should be required to pay a small annual subscription.
  LORD TALBOT DE MALAHIDEexpressed a hope that when the Government took the matter into consideration, they would also consider the propriety of extending the privilege to the literary and mechanics' institutions of Ireland.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that the recommendations of the Committee were already partially acted upon in the case of the valuable Reports which were made from time to time to the Board of Trade, copies of which he had ordered to be furnished to the various Chambers of Commerce throughout the kingdom. If the noble Duke's suggestion were carried out care should be taken that the papers were sent only to those institutions which were well established, and might be said to have a permanent existence.

PETTY SESSIONS IN IRELAND.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONasked the Lord Chancellor, whether in the next Session of Parliament it was contemplated to alter and amend the present Petty Sessional

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  Acts in Ireland, so as to assimilate them to those now in force in England and Wales?
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that his right hon. Friend the Attorney General for Ireland had this subject under his consideration, and would next Session be prepared to introduce into Parliament a Bill to consolidate and amend the Acts relating to petty sessions in Ireland; but not entirely to assimilate them to the English law upon the same subject, partly because he thought that the circumstances of Ireland rendered necessary some variations from the law of England, and partly because in some respects he considered the law of Ireland superior to that of the former country.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

  RESOLUTIONS.
  On the Motion of Lord REDESDALE it was Resolved:—
  "That this House will not read any Bill a Second Time after Friday, the 7th Day of August, except Bills of Aid or Supply, or any Bill in relation to which the House shall have resolved, before the Second Reading is moved, that the Circumstances which render Legislation on the Subject of the same expedient are either of such recent Occurrence or real Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the same necessary.
  "That on Friday, the 7th Day of August next, the Bills which are entered for Consideration on the Minutes of the Day shall have the same Precedence which Bills have on Tuesdays and Thursdays."
  House adjourned at a Quarter to Seven o'Clock, to Thursday next, Half-past Ten o'Clock.