Sitting of 3 July 1857

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—1o Public Health Act (Aldershot); Land Tax Commissioners' Names; Boundaries of Land (Ireland).
2o Probates and Letters of Administration (Ireland); Glebe Lands (Ireland); East Quay Wall Tax (Dublin).

THAMES AND MEDWAT CONSERVANCY BILL—CONSIDERATION.
Order for the Consideration of this Bill read.
SIR JAMES GRAHAMsaid, this Bill had for its object a purpose which he conceived was most legitimate—namely, the compromise of a suit long pending between the Crown and the Corporation of London with reference to the shores and bed of the river Thames within the limits of that Corporation. His attention had been drawn to this Bill by the Report of the Board of Trade. He had already stated to the House his strong opinion that the
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Board of Trade was the guardian of the public rights, and in the faithful discharge of its duties the Board frequently came into collision with powerful bodies, and had to make statements before the House and Committees of the House which sometimes were disagreeable to the private parties and corporate bodies whom those statements affected. In this case he believed the Bill was not opposed; but it went before a Select Committee, and there was also sent to that Committee a Report of the Board of Trade. There were two points in this Bill, winch, although the Bill was a private one, were of great public importance, and involved an important public principle. The first was in reference to the constitution of the body of conservators, and the second in reference to the application of the funds raised from shipping by that body. Now, with respect to the first point, he saw on the Treasury bench his right hon. Friends the Secretary for the Colonies and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, in 1854, were Members of a Commission to which was referred the question respecting the rights and charters of the City of London, and in that investigation this question of the conservancy of the river was brought before them, and in their Report they expressed an opinion which was set forth in the Report of the Board of Trade, and was to this effect:—They recommended that the principal control of the navigation of the Thames should be vested in a Board composed of the Lord Mayor, the First Lord of the Admiralty, the President of the Board of Trade, the First Commissioner of Woods, and the Deputy Master of the Trinity House, and that they be empowered to employ persons having the requisite professional knowledge. Now, this Bill provided a body of conservators composed altogether of other people. It was proposed that the conservators should consist of the Lord Mayor of London, of two conservators chosen by the Court of Aldermen, and four by the Common Council, and that there should be four or five others, one being the Deputy Master of the Trinity House, two or three recommended by Government, one by the Board of Trade, and one by the Corporation of the Trinity House. It would be observed that in this composition the corporate element of the City of London would at all times have a majority. There would be seven corporators, and if all the other members were on all occasions to act together, yet the Go-

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vernment would be in a constant minority. This was in opposition to the general principle involved in the recommendation of the Report of the Commissioners on Charges on Shipping. The Board of Trade, adopting the views of the Commissioners who had sat on this subject, stated that they had thought it right to report upon other harbour Bills in the present Session, and from these Reports it would be seen they were of opinion that the body to whom any great harbour should be entrusted should possess all the legal powers requisite for the management of the harbour and all matters relative thereto, and also the knowledge and experience requisite to the due performance of its duties, but above all that it should be responsible for their due performance. The present Bill appeared to have none of the above conditions; the new body would not be the sole body having the conservancy of the Thames, and would not possess all the powers requisite for the due performance of its duties, the Government nominees Would be in a minority, and, as against the members chosen by the London Corporation, would possess no power. It would, therefore, be impossible to hold them responsible for the conservation of the river. The Corporation of London would continue to exercise the local power, whilst it would be no more responsible, but would be far less responsible in the exercise of it than at present. That was the opinion of the Board of Trade with regard to the new conservators. But he had said there was another principle hardly less important—namely, the application of the funds to be raised, and especially if those funds consisted in any degree of dues raised from shipping. The Bill imposed certain new tolls on steamers plying on the Thames. Now, the Report stated that these dues were undoubtedly taxes on the trade of the port, and according to the Report of the Commissioners on local dues on shipping they ought to be abolished or applied to harbour purposes. In the latter case they would naturally form part of the conservancy fund. Now, so far from this recommendation of the Board of Trade being adopted, he believed that by the provisions of this Bill the dues in question were to be carried to the general conservancy fund, and so far from the surplus fund being applied to the reduction of the dues, there was another application of that surplus fund which showed that it was not contemplated to apply them to that purpose.
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He attached the greatest importance to the principle that these bodies should, as far as possible, be elected and not nominated—elected by those who contributed to the fund, and not nominated by those close bodies which had heretofore maintained the control over it; and secondly, he held that another great principle was that the dues levied on shipping should not be exacted to any greater extent than shipping purposes required. These principles were upheld in a Bill introduced by the Government last year, which gave full effect to the Report of the Commissioners, not only as regarded the conservancy, but in all other particulars. He was, therefore, anxious to hear some explanation from Her Majesty's Government accounting for that departure from these principles which was manifested in the present measure. He believed there were peculiar circumstances in reference to the compromise with the Corporation of the City which might make this a special case; but as he attached great importance to the principles involved, he trusted Her Majesty's Government would state to the satisfaction of the House why that departure was in this instance necessary, and express their determination to give validity to the recommendations of the Commissioners of the Board of Trade on all suitable occasions.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he trusted that he should be able to satisfy the House that no departure from the principles laid down in the Report of the Corporation Commission had been assented to by the Government, and that the only variation which had been assented to was one of detail, and not of principle. The arrangement embodied in this Bill was intended to put an end to a long-pending difference between the Crown and the City of London with respect to the rights of the Crown over the bed and shores of the Thames. The Crown was advised that it was entitled to—that it had a property in the bed and shores of the Thames, and whatever revenue might accrue from leases of the land between high and low water mark. Practically, all the benefit of that land bad accrued to the City of London, and the receipts had been applied to the conservancy of the river. The City of London claimed the property in the soil of the river in right of the conservancy. The case of the Crown was, that the title to the bed and shores was independent of the conservancy, and though its advisers

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did not dispute the right of the city to the conservancy, they asserted that the Crown held the bed and shores by an independent right; and thus the question stood at issue between the Crown and the Corporation. Those rival claims led to a long litigation, which threatened to be most expensive, and an attempt was made in 1846 to settle the question. In that year a conference took place between the noble Lord the Member for the City of London, who was then First Minister, Lord Morpeth, Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests, and Lord Auckland, First Lord of the Admiralty, the result of which was, that a Bill for the settlement of the debated question was agreed upon and a new constitution of the Conservancy Board was also agreed upon, to consist of fifteen conservators, ten to be nominated by the corporation and five by the Crown. In 1847, that Bill was introduced and committed, and recommitted, but owing to the lateness of the Session it did not pass into law. Subsequent negotiations took place with regard to the litigation, and attempts were made by successive Attorneys General to bring it to an end. It remained, however, pending till the end of last Session, and during the inquiry into the corporation by the Commission, of which his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Sir John Patteson, and himself were Members, it was agreed that the Commissioners should not go into the question respecting which the litigation was pending, and accordingly they only went into the question of conservancy. Well, as he had before observed, the litigation was pending up to the end of last Session; and it was thought very desirable that the litigation should be terminated, inasmuch as the conservancy of the river was to a great extent paralyzed from a want of those funds which were applied to the defence of the corporation against the claim of the Crown. A conference accordingly took place between himself on the part of the Government, and Mr. Stuart Wortley, the then Recorder of the City of London on the part of the Corporation, and the result was an agreement, by which the City recognized the right of the Crown, which it had previously contested, and the Crown consented to two-thirds of the revenues arising from the bed and soil of the Thames, being paid to the Conservancy Board, the other third to be paid to the Crown. It was also determined that, on these terms the litigation should cease, that a Board of Conservancy should
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be created, in which the Government, together with the Trinity House, should be more strongly represented than had been previously agreed to by the Corporation; that all the funds necessary for maintaining the conservancy should be furnished, as heretofore, from the dues levied upon the port and other sources of revenue accruing to the Corporation; that the whole of the debt which was due for the portion of the river above bridge should be paid by the Board; and that no liability should be accepted by the Government. It was also agreed that the portions above and below bridge should be consolidated, whereas previously they had been distinct. That agreement was embodied in a Treasury Minute, drawn up at the end of the late Session of Parliament. The first portion of that Minute declared that—
"The Department of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, and the Corporation of London, shall complete the agreement for putting an end to the suit as settled by the Attorney General in 1854, according to which the right of the Crown in the bed and shores of the river, with the exceptions specified in the agreement, were to be granted to the Corporation, as conservators of the river, upon trust to pay to the Crown one-third of all moneys arising from the bed and soil, and to apply the other two-thirds to the improvement of the navigation and banks of the river."
There was a further stipulation respecting the constitution of the Board, and then the Minute went on to say—
"That the whole river should be under one management, and the funds of the two portions of the river brought into common stock, and placed at the disposal of the Conservancy Board, for the maintenance and improvement of the navigation, both above and below bridge."
And it was further provided that—
"When all the said revenues of the river are transferred to the new Board, the Board should take upon itself the burden of the existing debt, which has been incurred in the maintenance and improvement of the upper portion of the river."
That debt at one time amounted to £199,900, but by successive payments it had been reduced by £69,000, leaving a sum of £130,900 now due. It should also be stated, that the Corporation of London had expended £50,000 of their own money within the last few years in improving the navigation of the River Thames above London Bridge. Under these circumstances, he submitted that it was an advantageous arrangement for the Government that they should retain one-third of the revenue arising from the bed and shores of the river, that the remaining two-thirds should be devoted to the improvement of the navigation, that the debt should remain a charge upon the Conser-

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vancy revenue, and that those sums which the City had been in the habit of bestowing, from time to time, upon the improvement of the conservancy, should continue to be furnished from their resources. The only remaining question was, as to the construction of the Conservancy Board. Now, this Bill certainly did not comply with the principle laid down by his right hon. Friend—namely, that the Board ought to consist of elected members. It should be remembered, however, that the Board, as suggested by the Report of the Commissioners, also deviated from that principle; for they recommended that the Board should consist of high officers of the Crown, who were not to be supposed to superintend the details, but who were to be invested with authority to employ the services of subordinate officers who should perform that duty. It was thought better that there should be nominees, both of the Corporation and of the Government; that the Corporation should appoint seven conservators, the Lord Mayor being one, the Aldermen furnishing two, and the Common Council four; that the Admiralty should appoint two, the Board of Trade one, and the Trinity House two. Considering that the Government did not furnish any new funds for the improvement of the conservancy, it appeared to him that this arrangement gave them a fair share in the representation at the Board. The principle which he contended for was, that the Conservancy Board should not be exclusively a Corporation Board, but that the Government and the Trinity House should be adequately represented there. This would not be a question of mere preponderance of numbers, as between the seven and five members nominated by the Corporation and by the Government with the Trinity House respectively. Where a Government was represented at a Board, its members always obtained that weight and authority which naturally belonged to their position as representatives of the executive power, so that this was not a point of mere arithmetical proportion. If, however, it should be found on experience that the views of the Government were unduly overruled by the Corporation members, and that the interests of the public were sacrificed to any corporation interests, it would undoubtedly be the duty of the Government representatives to bring the matter under the consideration of the Executive, who, if they found that the constitution of the Board as now proposed was
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unsatisfactory, would then feel called upon to adopt other measures. He confessed, however, that he did not anticipate any such consequence, and believed that the Board, as constituted, would work satisfactorily. On the whole, then, he thought that the Bill was one to which the House might give its consent with the greatest propriety.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he wished to inquire whether the Corporation had agreed to pay any money to the Government for its concurrence in this measure?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERrepeated that Government was to receive one-third of the revenue of the soil of the river.
MR. LOCKE KINGsaid, that whatever might be the merits of the case, the House had heard sufficient, he thought, to satisfy it that the question was one of great importance; and in order that it might receive the consideration it merited, he moved the postponement of the second reading until this day week.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that complaints had been made, and not without very strong reason, of the mismanagement of the Thames conservancy, by the Corporation. In 1836, he remembered, a Committee of this House was appointed to inquire into the subject, and the opinion of that Committee was very strongly expressed that an entire change ought to take place, and that the powers vested in the Corporation should be handed over to persons holding high office—for example, to the First Lord of the Admiralty, the President of the Board of Trade, the Deputy Master of the Trinity House, and the Lord Mayor. He believed the Government at that time intended to carry out the recommendation of the Committee, but there was some talk of a reform of the Corporation, and the whole thing was deferred. Now, he thought the same course should be adopted on the present occasion. They had been recently again promised a reform of the Corporation, which, for some reason or other, had been delayed, and this question of the Thames conservancy ought to be postponed, and to form part of the measure contemplated, if, indeed, the Government had not altogether abandoned their intention to bring in such a Bill.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that he

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should oppose the adjournment of the debate, on the ground that all the facts were before the House, and that hon. Members were as perfectly able to form an opinion on the merits of the Bill then, as they would be in a week's time. For his own part, he entirety concurred in the principle laid down by his right hon Friend (Sir J. Graham). As a general rule, he believed it was most important that all taxes levied upon commerce in this country should be devoted to strictly commercial purposes, and should be expended under the management of an independent and responsible Board. This general principle, he hoped, would not be lost sight of by the House, and any departure from it in the present instance could only be justified by the special circumstances of the case. Into these circumstances he should not enter; they had been fully stated by his right hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), who had proved beyond doubt, he thought, that in the present ease they had to deal with a very complicated state of things, and with circumstances of complete speciality, and that the Government were justified in the course they had taken. At the same time, he should he sorry if this course should lead the House to relax their adherence on future occasions to that which, as a general rule, ought always to be kept in view.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, that he was in the position of four-fifths probably of the Members of the House, and knew nothing of the provisions of this private Bill. Before the House decided upon passing it, they should know what power of taxation it conferred upon the Corporation; and next, they should also take care that the Corporation levied not one farthing more upon shipping than was actually required for the conservancy of the river. There might be clauses in the Bill to meet these points; but the House should have time to investigate the matter, and he should therefore vote for the adjournment of the debate.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERdid not understand that the Bill conferred any new powers upon the Board of levying taxes. It merely transferred the existing dues, and according to the last return he found that the amount expended upon the conservancy of the river in one year exceeded by £2,844 the amount received from dues; while one of the advantages of the new arrangement was that the City had been induced to
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continue the practice, which it had followed for several years past, of supplying the deficiency from its other revenues.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he hoped the House would not assent to the Motion for adjourning the debate. He saw no good that could arise from the adjournment, and thought the House quite competent to decide upon the question at once. He could not forget that there had been twelve or thirteen years of useless litigation between the Crown and the City respecting certain rights; that that litigation had continued all the time without the courts of law being able to come to a final decision; and that it might still continue for another twelve or thirteen years but for the arrangement proposed by this Bill. So far as he understood the measure, the Board appeared to be fairly constituted. He did not see that there was any likelihood of jobbing either on the part of the Crown or the Corporation; for they were pretty well guarded on both sides. In fact, one party would be sure to show up the other, if any attempt were made to do what was wrong or unjust to the public. Under the circumstances, he confessed that he regarded the arrangement, on the whole, to be a favourable one to all parties; for it must be borne in mind that the rights were disputed in the first instance—that the actual right to the shore of the river was disputed. As far as the Corporation were concerned, the Bill fully guarded against their taking a farthing of the money for themselves, but every farthing would have to be laid out in the proper conservancy of the river.
SIR JAMES GRAHAMsaid, that, as the adjournment of the debate would impede the progress of the Bill, he ventured to recommend that the opinion of the House should be taken upon the third reading; and in the meantime he hoped that hon. Members would read the Report of the Board of Trade on the measure as it stood. He thought that the constitution of the Board of Conservancy was objectionable, inasmuch as it gave an invariable standing majority to the Corporation. It was moreover at variance with the recommendation of two Cabinet Ministers—the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for the Colonies—and with the measure introduced last Session by the Government, which adopted the recommendation of the Commission, and named a chosen body, in which the Corporation had only one representative, in

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the person of the Lord Mayor. He had not studied the Bill, except through the Report of the Board of Trade, but, as he understood it, there was in it a new power of taxation upon shipping above bridge, and upon all steamers plying between Putney and Teddington. There was also an application of any surplus arising from dues, which he thought was objectionable. The Board of Trade recommended that if the surplus increased the dues should be lowered, but the Bill applied it in another way. Moreover, the measure appeared to him to have a most important bearing upon the coal dues, the corn metage, and all the great questions of taxation affecting the interests of the Corporation of London. It was called a private Bill, but a more important public measure, involving great public principles, had seldom been brought under the consideration of the House. He had discharged his duty in having called the attention of the House to it. It would not be reasonable, he thought, to arrest the progress of the Bill in its present stage, but he suggested that the sense of the House should be taken with respect to it upon the third reading.
SIR JOHN SHELLEYasked the Government to give an assurance that the third reading should not be fixed for an earlier period than that day week.
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that no doubt it was desirable to give sufficient time for the consideration of the Report of the Board of Trade to which his right hon. Friend had referred. The Bill was not a Government Bill, however, but was promoted by one of the hon. Members for the City of London, who would perhaps fix a day for the third reading.
SIR JAMES DUKEsaid, he begged to assure the House that the Corporation intended this Bill to confer a benefit upon the mercantile classes and upon the public generally, and if he did not believe that that would be its object he should wash his hands of it and give it no support. The Corporation had expended no less than £50,000 beyond their receipts in the improvement of the river Thames, and they were willing to provide that sum out of their general income. They also had a further debt of £137,000 on bond arising from expenses incurred about the upper navigation of the river. They desired to work cordially with the Trinity House, with the Board of Trade, and with the Government; they had no corporate interests to serve in the matter, and their only
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work was to improve the navigation of the river, and to confer a benefit upon the commercial interests of the City. He also begged to remind the House that the Corporation was in a different position to what it was some years ago, for now every resident freeman of the City had an opportunity of voting, and that was a sufficient check to prevent jobbing. If the Bill were read a second time, he would have no objection to appoint the third reading for Tuesday next. If he delayed it to a later period the Bill could not be introduced into the House of Lords this Session.
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that after next Wednesday no private Bill could go up to the House of Lords from this House; so that if the third reading were postponed until that day, it would be tantamount to defeating the measure.
MR. LOCKE KINGsaid, he would withdraw his Amendment.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn; Amendments made; Bill to be read 3o.

TEWKESBURY ELECTION.
House informed, that the Committee had determined,—
That John Martin, esquire, is duly elected a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Tewkesbury.
And the said Determination was ordered to be entered in the Journals of this House.

THE ADJOURNED INDIAN DEBATE.

  QUESTION.
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, he would beg to ask the first Lord of the Treasury, what day he will give for the conclusion of the Indian debate, the adjournment of which, on the 23rd June, was agreed to by the President of the Board of Control on the ground of the great importance of the subject? He would also beg to ask, whether the noble Lord did not consider the importance of the debate much increased by the recent news from India?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I must correct the recollection of the noble Lord, who seems to imagine that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Control, consented to the adjournment of the; debate, solely upon the ground of the importance of the subject. Now, I think the reason the debate was adjourned was, because it happened to be between twelve

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  and one in the morning: and as many hon. Gentlemen wished to speak, it was impossible to resist the Motion for the adjournment. I confess, Sir, that I do not exactly see the connection between the important news which has lately been received from India and the promotion of the growth of cotton on the north-west coast of that country; but that is not material. I am afraid I cannot consent to the request of the noble Lord to name a day, because we have a great many Bills of importance which it is most desirable to advance; and there are a great many Votes; in the Estimates which have not yet been considered. I am afraid, therefore, that those who wish to take part in the discussion to which the noble Lord refers, must find a time for it themselves.

REPORT ON SCIENCE AND ART.

  QUESTION.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, why the Fourth Report of the Department of Science and Art has not been issued to Members with their Votes as in previous years; why it was not issued to Members before the 1st day of July (and then only on special application at the office for the sale of papers), the Estimate for the Department of Science and Art having been voted on the 29th day of June; and whether arrangements cannot he made to have the future Reports of the Department issued to Members at such a period of the Session as shall allow examination of the Report previous to the Estimate for the Department being voted by the House?
  MR. WILSONsaid, the delay in presenting the Report arose from some mistake, in consequence of the Department of Science and Art being in the present year transferred from the control of the Board of Trade to that of the Board of Education. The reason why the Report was not issued to hon. Members was, because the Printing Committee had decided that papers presented by command, and being of a voluminous nature, and not in many cases of general interest, should not be distributed like the other Parliamentary papers, but should be given to hon. Members on application.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, he thought it desirable that some notice of the papers presented by command should be given to Members.
  MR. WILSONsaid, he thought so too, and he would suggest that a list of such papers as were ready should be specified in the daily votes distributed to Members.

ORDNANCE SURVEY OF SCOTLAND.

  QUESTION.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, he would now beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, when the Supplemental Estimate for the Ordnance Survey of Scotland will be presented to the House, and whether any orders or instructions have been issued to the Ordnance Department in respect of the scale on which the Survey of Scotland and England is to be drawn in future?
  MR. WILSONsaid that, in reply to the first question, he believed the Estimate would be presented to the House within a fortnight. With regard to the second question of the hon. Baronet, he begged to state that, after the decision at which the House arrived the other evening, the Treasury received from the Ordnance Department a letter requesting to be informed what course they should pursue. The Treasury replied to the effect, that in accordance with the decision of the House, all future works which were not now actually commenced must be drawn upon the six-inch scale, and so long as the House continued to entertain its present views, that course would be implicitly followed. In order, however, that hon. Members might be satisfied on the subject, he had moved for the production of the letter from the Ordnance Department, and the reply of the Treasury, and he believed they would be in the hands of hon. Members to-morrow morning.

  COMMUNICATION BETWEEN LONDON AND DUBLIN—QUESTION.
  MR. CORRYsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether the Government has accepted the conditions of a contract for an improved Postal and Passenger Communication between London and Dublin?
  MR. WILSONsaid, he hoped that an arrangement had at last been effected on the subject. Only one point still remained to be settled, and he could not believe that there would be any difficulty in concluding a satisfactory arrangement between the North-Western Railway Company and the

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  Post Office. He would, in a few days, be able to lay the formal conditions of the contract upon the table; but the outlines of the arrangement were, that four vessels of 300 feet in length, of 1,700 tons burden, and of 600 nominal horse power, capable of working up to 3,000 horse power, should be provided for the service, so that the passage should be performed within three hours and three quarters. The whole journey between London and Kingstown was to be performed in eleven hours, and between London and Dublin in eleven hours and a half each way. The periods of arrival and departure would be stated in a Minute, which he hoped to be in a condition to lay upon the table in the course of a few days.
  MR. VANCEsaid, he should be glad to know when the new arrangement would come into operation?
  MR. WILSON'Sreply was inaudible.

TREATMENT OF LUNATICS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. DRUMMONDsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what report he received from the Commissioners of Lunacy with regard to the complaint of Thomas Tilley, that he had been confined in an iron jacket in a dark room for seven weeks in the Beverley Retreat for lunatics near York, to which Commissioners the said complaint was sent for investigation?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, several months ago he received a complaint of the treatment to which Thomas Tilley had been subjected, not in the Beverley Retreat, alluded to by the hon. Member for West Surrey, but in the Gate Helmsley Lunatic Asylum, near York, which he referred forthwith, according to the usual practice, to the Commissioners in lunacy for the purpose of investigation. Two of the Commissioners were immediately deputed to make a full inquiry into the case, and they reported the result to the Board. The Board sent him extracts from that Report; but a copy of the entire Report with Minutes of the evidence was sent to the committee of visitors of the asylum. The extracts received by him fully confirmed the statements as to the use, in the case of this patient, of means of restraint and other treatment which the Commissioners strongly condemned; but it did not appear, however, that the confinement
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  had been in a dark room, or had lasted so long as seven weeks. The iron jacket, too, did not belong to the asylum, but had been brought to it with a patient from York. It also appeared that the conduct of the patient Tilley was of the most violent description, and that he had escaped no less than six times, and while at large had committed acts of the greatest violence. The Commissioners also stated other extenuating circumstances, speaking favourably of the general management of the asylum, though they passed a severe censure upon the conduct adopted with regard to this patient. He was informed that the Commissioners had since again visited the asylum, and satisfied themselves that due care was now taken against the recurrence of any similar practices; and he had no doubt the inquiry would produce very beneficial results.
  On the Motion "That the House at its rising adjourn till Monday,"

THE RED RIVER SETTLEMENT.

  QUESTION.
  MR. WYLDsaid, he believed that a body of troops was about to be sent from Canada to the Red River Settlement. The distance from the place of embarkation to the Red River Settlement would, by the ordinary route across the lakes, be about 1,200 miles; but it was stated that the troops were to be sent up the river St. Lawrence, round the shore of Labrador, and landed on the eastern shore of Hudson's Bay—a distance of 4,200 miles. He believed that a very strong feeling was entertained on this subject in Canada, as Canadian merchants had offered to convey the troops without expense to the Government to the eastern shore of Lake Superior; he would, therefore, beg to ask the Under Secretary for War whether it is the intention of the Government to adopt the shorter or the longer route?
  SIR JOHN RAMSDENsaid the hon. Gentleman was perfectly correct in stating that a detachment of troops was being sent round to the Red River Settlement by sea, and which was a much more circuitous route than that by the lakes and overland; but the obstacles in the latter route were so great that it would be almost impossible at present to overcome them. It was true that there was steam communication the whole distance from Toronto to the western end of Lake Superior, but at that point it

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  would be necessary to cross a tract of country 300 miles in extent, which was, he believed, entirely uninhabited, which was intersected by rivers and swamps, and in which, at present, no means of transit existed. That route was, in fact, utterly impracticable, and it had, therefore been deemed necessary that the troops should make the long détour of which the hon. Gentleman complained. He might add, as he had before stated, that these troops had been sent at the request of the Hudson's Bay Company, and at their cost.
  MR. WYLDsaid, the Canadian Legislature had voted £300 for the formation of a road in the district to which the hon. Baronet had alluded. The country, so far from being impassable, was average prairie land, and he believed the real reason why the troops were not sent by that route was because the Hudson's Bay Company were alarmed lest a road should be opened from Canada to their settlements.
  SIR JOHN RAMSDENsaid, he had been informed that the Canadian Legislature had passed a Vote for the formation of a road, but that road was not yet opened. It was necessary that the troops should be sent out immediately, and they had therefore been sent round by sea.

  BOARD OF HEALTH—QUESTION.
  MR. PALKsaid, he wished to ask the Home Secretary if it is the intention of the Government to bring in any Bill to remedy the defects proved before a Select Committee of the present Board of Health. It would be in the recollection of the House that the Bill under which the Board of Health now existed was passed in the year 1848; that that Bill had been condemned over and over again; that it had been submitted to Committees, and that various Members of the present administration had attempted to make such modifications and alterations in its provisions as should induce Parliament to adopt it as a permanent measure. Upon all occasions, however, they had failed, and upon the last occasion, which was the Session of 1856, that House, by a large majority, refused to give the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Hertford (Mr. Cowper), permission to introduce the Bill which he then asked leave to bring in. The right hon. Gentleman succeeded, however, in obtaining from the House a continuance of
  884
  the then existing Act, upon the specific pledge that early in the present Session a Bill should be brought in to amend and remedy the defects which had been proved and admitted to exist in the Board of Health Act. They had now arrived at a period of the Session when it was extremely doubtful whether any measure of that, sort could be introduced; and that circumstance would be fraught with great injury and evil to towns and districts under the present Board of Health, because they had spent all the money they were authorized to raise without having completed the necessary drainage and other works for which they had placed themselves under that Board. Another class had also been deeply aggrieved by the conduct of the Government, because they had been waiting year after year for the promised measure, to enable them to take those steps for the cleansing of their towns which the increase in their population demanded. The only Bill that had been brought before the House was one which the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary was most successful in carrying through a second reading; but he carried it through with so much exertion that he totally forgot to explain or comment upon the nature of that measure. It was nothing more, however, than a simple Bill to render permanent all the evils and defects of the existing law, which had been so repeatedly condemned. It professed to transfer the powers of the Board of Health to the Privy Council, and to save the country £3,000 a year; but it was, in fact to perpetuate the defects of the Act of 1848. He (Mr. Palk) wished, therefore, to know whether it was the intention of the Government to redeem the pledge by means of which they had obtained the renewal of that Act, or whether the promises then made by them were only made for the purpose of gaining time?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he thought it desirable not to make any statement in anticipation of the discussion which would probably take place at a later period of the evening, when the House went into Committee on the General Board of Health Bill; but he might state in reply to the question put to him by the hon. Gentleman, that a Bill had been prepared for materially amending the Act of 1848, although he could not admit that that Act was condemned by the Select Committee, as the hon. Member seemed to infer.

IMMIGRATION TO BRITISH GUIANA.

  QUESTION.
  MR. T. BARINGsaid, that he had given notice to present a petition from British Guiana on the immigration of free labourers, but he had since decided as the better way of calling the attention of the Government to the subject to ask a question of the President of the Board of Trade. At the end of March last a most respectable and influential meeting had been held at George Town, Demerara, to take into consideration the supply of labour for the wants of the colony; that a resolution to petition Parliament on the subject was adopted unanimously at that meeting; and a petition in accordance with that resolution had been forwarded to him with a request that he would present it to the House of Commons. He had readily undertaken that duty, because the petition demanded nothing incompatible with justice; because it uttered no angry complaints as to the effect of the commercial policy of this country upon the colony in question; because it indicated no party or political bias; and because it manifested no feeling of hostility towards any particular Minister. That petition, moreover, stated facts and circumstances in connection with the colony as well as with this country which demanded, in his (Mr. Baring's) opinion, the immediate consideration of Her Majesty's Government, and which claimed the attention and sympathy of the House. It was not necessary for him to refer to the importance to the mother country of the prosperity of the Colonies, especially those colonies which, like the colony in question, produced articles which entered largely into the consumption of the population of this country; nor to discuss the Importance of proving the advantages of free labour over slave labour in the production of these articles. British Guiana comprised an extent of 70,000 square miles, and contained upwards of 50,000,000 of acres of the most fertile land; it had the advantage of an excellent internal communication by means of its large rivers; and it had a great extent of sea coast. Moreover, it was within a month or six weeks' sail of this country; and therefore in a most favourable position for supplying it with produce. Of this immense surface, however, there were only some 60,000 acres under cultivation because of the deficiency of labour, although the soil and climate were calculated to grow cotton as well as sugar, and notwithstanding the
  886
  cotton from that quarter had obtained a medal at the Great Exhibition. Of the population of 90,000, about one-fourth only could be called labourers, and to these must be added some 20,000 Portuguese and coolies. The practical problem to be solved, therefore, was how labour was to be furnished to a colony so rich in all other advantages without interfering with the obligations due to humanity. Unfortunately, natives of Africa, of India, or of China, were the only persons who could cultivate the soil in the climate of that colony; and the complaint of the petitioners was, that they were hampered in obtaining a supply of labour from these sources by the various and unnecessary restrictions that had been imposed upon the immigration of labourers. He (Mr. Baring) was quite ready to allow that, if it should be found that the effect of emigration to our colonies from Africa led to all those unnatural wars and those acts of barbarity which distinguished the slave trade, we ought not to listen to the suggestion of procuring a supply of labour for the colony of British Guiana from that quarter of the globe. But this was a question which ought not to be neglected, and if emigration from Africa were resorted to in order to furnish the means of labour, in this case it was a source of supply which ought to be watched by the Government. The petitioners prayed that they might be permitted to import emigrants from any part of the globe in which a British Consul resided. If Africa were excluded, what was the case with regard to India? An attempt had been made to procure coolies, but in India there was the greatest restriction imposed upon emigration. Only 350 coolies were allowed to leave in one ship, however large that ship might be; and the Great Eastern, which could convey 10,000 passengers, would be confined to the smaller number, if she sailed from Calcutta. The result of this restriction was, that an inferior class of ships were taken up for the emigration of coolies; and he (Mr. Baring) had been informed that the mortality and disease on board French emigrant ships of a large size, with a greater number of labourers on board, was considerably less than in British ships of a smaller capacity, which the restriction in question brought into the trade, to the exclusion of others better adapted for it in every respect. That was the first clog to the supply of labour for the Colonies. The next was the regula-

  887
  tion making it compulsory on the Colonies to send back the labourer, at their own expense, when his term of five or ten years had expired. The coolie was not allowed to stay; he was not permitted to take an equivalent in money, but he was obliged to go back, and the colony had to pay the cost of his transport. What the colonists wished was, that the coolie, who, in many cases, had amassed considerable sums of money by the end of his servitude, should be suffered to make his own bargain, for which he was perfectly competent; and they objected to being shackled with these restrictions. The principle that ought to be adopted in this case was the same as had been adopted in commercial matters—that of absolute freedom, so far as was compatible with what was due to humanity. The principle acted upon was, on the contrary, almost prohibition, through the stringent nature of the regulations insisted on, and of these regulations he thought the colonists had a just right to complain. The result was, that, in the seven years, from 1848 to 1854, 22,000 labourers had been imported into the colony, of which 10,000 only were coolies, the remainder being from Madeira and Sierra Leone. These labourers were all in better circumstances in the colony than they could be at home; for they were able sometimes to earn as much as 1s. an hour, but they could constantly obtain from 2s. 6d. to 3s. wages on snort time each day. In 1834 an ordinance was passed by the Indian Government by which, under the plea of preventing hardship to the labourer, the emigration of coolies was virtually suspended; and now there were no longer any means of obtaining labour for British Guiana from India. But then it might be said that China was open to the colonists. But while the Chinese had been flocking to every other colony, and had been carried in British ships to many foreign possessions, they had not been allowed to enter British Guiana. In that colony there had been a virtual prohibition of Chinese labour during the last few years, not on the ground of international policy, nor because the Chinese, as a class, were not industrious and useful labourers, nor because they would not answer the purpose for which they were required, nor because they did not increase the prosperity of the colonies in which they had settled—Singapore and Java for instance—but because they were not accompanied by their wives. It had, however,
  888
  always been the course of emigration that the males went out first and the females followed after; and it was shown by the condition of the Chinese themselves in Java and in other places of the Eastern Archipelago to which they had migrated. Besides that, marriages in China presented an almost insuperable difficulty in the case of the poorer emigrant, inasmuch as, instead of the father giving a dowry with his daughter, the husband was expected to pay the father for his wife. The real question in the case was, what the Government proposed to do for the purpose of taking steps to obtain labour. It was a question of the greatest importance to the future of the colony; and on its solution depended not only the prosperity of the colony, but also the prosperity of this country, inasmuch as it involved the cheapness or dearness of articles of primary consumption. Moreover, it involved the further problem of how far it could he proved to the world that our Colonies, with free labour alone, were able to compete with the sugar and cotton-growing States of America. In this delicate and complicated matter it was desirable that the Colonies should act in concert with the Government in endeavouring to mitigate the evils complained of, and, in the exercise of his discretion, he should now simply ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies whether Her Majesty's Government had adopted any measures to facilitate immigration into British Guiana?
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he entirely concurred in the opinions of his hon. Friend, that no more important question relating to our colonial policy could possibly engage the attention of the House than that which his hon. Friend had brought forward; nor did he differ from his hon. Friend, in any essential degree, as to the general principles he had enunciated. Important as the subject was at all times, it, was especially so under existing circumstances. The present very high price of sugar was drawing the attention of all the sugar-producing countries of the world to the supply of labour—a matter which lay at the very foundation of their cultivation, and formed the very life-blood of their prosperity. It was, therefore, the duty of the Government, by all lawful means, to provide our Colonies with a proper supply of labour, not only for the sake of the colonists themselves, but because there was no more effectual mode of discouraging slavery and the slave trade

  889
  than by proving to the world that, under a state of freedom, these articles of general consumption, especially sugar, could be produced with quite as much advantage as under compulsory labour. He had always held that the importation of free labourers to the West Indies should be promoted in every legitimate way; but there were certain conditions for its regulation, to which they ought steadfastly to adhere. Those conditions were, first, that they should take care that the laws of humanity were not violated; that every man who engaged himself as a labourer was a free agent; and that no system of internal slave trade, with all its attendant atrocities, should be fostered in the country from which these persons were brought. Next, their passage across the seas should be so managed as to guard against the recurrence of any of those fearful calamities on board the vessels which formerly excited so much horror among the people of England. The third condition which ought to be enforced was, that when the labourers reached the Colonies, they should be treated with all the humane consideration due to free men, and that, under no system of so-called apprenticeship or contracts, should the institution of slavery, on which he trusted the brand of this country had been indelibly fixed, be in any degree revived. Another condition, scarcely less important than any of the foregoing, was, that in any such plan of immigration, a due proportion between the sexes should be observed, and that a reasonable number of women should be introduced, to avoid the frightful evil inseparable from the carrying of an exclusively male population to any British possession. Under these restrictions, the Government were anxious to encourage emigration to our Colonies, from whatever source that emigration might be derived. The hon. Member talked as if nothing had been done of late years in this matter. But, in fact, an immense emigration, under stringent regulations, had been conducted, in many instances, with signal benefit both to the Colonies and to the emigrants themselves. In the case of the Mauritius, they had a striking exemplification of the possibility of cultivating sugar by free labour, not only at a profit, but at a greater profit than by slave labour. From its proximity to India, the Mauritius had no difficulty in procuring an ample supply of labour, and within the last ten years, as many as 100,000 coolies had been transported thence to that island, and were engaged in the
  890
  cultivation of its sugar plantations. The result was, an enormous increase in the production of that colony, with a high state of consequent prosperity, which, so far from being purchased at the expense of inhumanity towards these labourers, enabled them to accumulate property, and settle on the island, or, if they returned to their native country, they carried the fruits of their industry with them. There was no pretext whatever for saying that the coolies in the Mauritius were not duly protected and benefited by the system there in operation. He (Mr. Labouchere) could assure his hon. Friend that if our West Indian possessions had not enjoyed the same advantages to an equal degree, that had not been the result of any unnecessary obstruction on the part of the Government, but was owing to their geographical position in relation to the source of the supply of labour not being so favourable as that of the Mauritius. His hon. Friend asked why they confined themselves to India, and did not go to Africa and China. It was due no less to the remarks of so high an authority as his hon. Friend than to the importance of the subject itself, that the House should know that it was on no light or ill-considered grounds that the Government had discouraged emigration to the West Indies from these two countries. The attempt to obtain a supply of labour from Africa had been made in our own possessions, and on the Kroo coast, but without success. The experiments, which had been tried with the greatest care, had entirely failed; and he was satisfied that any extensive efforts to procure negroes would infallibly lead to the fostering of an internal system of slavery in Africa. It might be said, it could do no harm to take the negro away from domestic slavery, and transport him as a free labourer to our Colonies. That might be true if they looked only to the case of the individual negro; but, what would be the result? His place would be immediately filled up by somebody else. This would increase the value of the negro, and speedily cause a revival of all the horrors incident to intestine war, and an internal slave trade. The greatest caution ought to be exercised before they took steps which might lead to such monstrous results. He had been gratified beyond expression by the accounts he had received during the last two years, describing the growth of legitimate traffic on the western coast of Africa. Commerce, peace, civili-

  891
  zation, and, let him add, Christianity, were spreading in those regions. A recent communication from the Governor of Sierra Leone stated that he had seen fifty canoes coming down the river laden with native produce; and it was remarkable how the exportation of palm oil and other products was increasing. They were, therefore, at length, exercising a substantial influence on the internal condition of Africa, and they ought to have a care how they did anything to destroy this newborn commerce, and to mar such fair prospects. With regard to the importation of labour from China, to which a gentleman from British Guiana had informed him the hopes of that colony were more especially directed, he would admit the Chinese made very useful and industrious labourers; they were hardy, frugal, willing to work, and moreover, did not want to be sent back again; and if they could be induced to go out to British Guiana, and to other parts of the West Indies, they would be valuable auxiliaries to the cultivator. Still, it was most important that the rule requiring that a certain number of women should accompany the male Chinese emigrants should be adhered to. At one time there were no less than 20,000 of those emigrants, and only three women in the colony of Victoria. They were all labourers, and the state of things became so shocking to the moral feelings of the colonists, that they adopted a peculiar plan for keeping Chinese emigrants out of the colony. They imposed a tax of £10 upon every Chinese emigrant that came into it. But that plan failed, because neighbouring colonies did not adopt it, and the emigrants having obtained an entrance into them, contrived by indirect means to pass into the colony of Victoria. The question of inducing Chinese women to follow the men was not, by any means, so simple as his hon. Friend seemed to consider; for Her Majesty's Government had received from Sir John Bowring the strongest remonstrances against any attempt to induce Chinese women, by Government agency, to emigrate from China, because it would infallibly produce a system of fraud and violence of the most reprehensible character. The Government held the whole question to be of such grave importance that they instructed Lord Elgin, on his going out to China, to avail himself of every opportunity of obtaining correct and unprejudiced information on it, and he (Mr. Labouchere) could assure his hon.
  892
  Friend, on the part of the Government, that if he could see his way to a plan for encouraging Chinese emigration to our Colonies, without introducing evils of the most alarming magnitude, he should rejoice to adopt it. His hon. Friend had said that there were several minute regulations with regard to the coolies, which operated as cheeks to their emigration. He seemed to think that the master of a coolie in one of our colonies was compelled to convey him to his native country. That was not so. All that they were obliged to do was, to give them a back-passage money, which was quite a different thing from expelling them from the colonies. He (Mr. Labouchere) could only say, it appeared to him the time had come when that question might be fairly considered. The coolies were now so much accustomed to West Indian labour, that they could judge for themselves on that point; but it was a point on which the Indian Government felt great difficulty. The state of the question now was this:—He (Mr. Labouchere) had written to the Indian Government, requesting them to give their most serious consideration to the matter, and he inferred from their answer, there was some probability as to their relaxing that rule. They had, however, always attached the greatest importance to it, because they were apprehensive that the coolies might be taken in. They thought it was only fair to the coolies, that after so long a residence as that of ten years in a colony, they should be furnished with the means of returning to their own country. He should be very glad if it should be found possible, consistently with the interests of those poor people, to relax the rule. His hon. Friend had said that, although the French authorities, in permitting the emigration of coolies from Pondicherry, followed a different rule from ours with regard to the tonnage of the vessels, that there was less mortality in the French ships than in the English. That was a startling fact, if true. He could only say, the Emigration Commissioners informed him that that was contrary to their experience, and that the rule laid down by them, of one coolie to a ton, was the proper rule; that it could not be altered without danger, and that it would be against the sanitary regulations which it was thought necessary to observe in this matter, to follow the French rule. That subject was also one of importance, and he had directed strict inquiry to be made on the spot by impartial persons.

  893
  The Government could have no object in retaining any restrictions, except those which were necessary to secure to the coolies fair and proper treatment in their passage across the ocean. Every suggestion from the Colonies on this subject had received, and would receive, the most attentive consideration from the Government; but the national faith and honour, and the interests of the Colonies themselves in the long run, required that they should not depart from that policy which this country had persevered in for so many years with regard to emigration to the West Indies. His hon. Friend said there was an arbitrary rule as to the number of emigrants to be taken in any vessel. The rule arose from this: that the emigration agents supposed vessels of a moderate size, and not exceeding a certain tonnage, were the most convenient for conducting this emigration, and that if vessels of a larger size were employed, they would he kept too long waiting before they could be filled. This rule, therefore, was adopted for the convenience of the colony itself. If anything could increase the desire of Her Majesty's Government to consult the wishes of the people of British Guiana, it would be the temperate tone of their petition, and the importance of discouraging the horrors of the slave trade in other countries.

GROWTH OF COTTON IN INDIA.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, he deeply regretted the position in which the Motion with regard to the growth of cotton in India had been placed. The House was aware that it would be impossible for the hon. and learned Member for Devonport (Sir E. Perry) to resume the adjourned debate upon that subject, because the whole of the future part of the Session was now in the hands of the Government. He did hope the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) would reconsider his decision. In the manufacturing districts much alarm was felt as to the supply of cotton, and it would be a great misfortune if the adjourned debate on the growth of cotton in India should not be resumed, and if the important communications expected from the President of the Board of Control should not be made. What would the country think when they saw the House spend the greater part of one night in a debate about the price of a
  894
  picture, and yet unable to find time for discussing the claims of India, and the great benefit that would result to our manufacturing districts from the cultivation of cotton in that country? He appealed to the noble Lord to afford them an opportunity for a full discussion of this important subject.
  LORD ADOLPHUS VANE-TEMPESTsaid, the noble Lord had added sarcasm to refusal this evening by telling hon. Members that they must find a day for themselves for the resumption of this debate. The noble Lord must have known that in the present state of the business of the House that was impossible. He now begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control at what period he proposed to make his Indian statement to the House. That statement was usually made just before the festive season of the whitebait dinner at Greenwich, when a very small number of Members were present, and those very exhausted. Surely the Indian budget should be brought forward at a period of the Session when there was likely to be a fuller attendance.
  SIR ERSKINE PERRYrepeated a suggestion he had formerly made, that, instead of submitting to the House his Indian statement at the end of the Session, in the first ten days of August, when, perhaps, not more than twenty hon. Members were present, the President of the Board of Control should make it in the first ten days of the Session, when no Government business was before the House, and when the House, being then in full possession of its faculties, would probably give its attention to what seemed a rather distasteful subject. The affairs of India just now were so extremely interesting that he trusted the noble Lord would listen to the appeal made to him, and give a day for the continuation of the cotton debate.
  MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, he was perfectly ready to introduce the statement respecting India on any day hon. Members wished, but the House itself would complain if measures of immediate urgency were retarded for a statement and a debate which, however important, would have no immediate consequence. The same might be said of the Motion of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. J. B. Smith). He had not objected to the adjournment of the discussion the other night, because the hour was late, and he thought it right to

  895
  say something on the question, but he had never made any promise on the part of the Government that they would give up a night for the purpose. The noble Lord (Lord A. V. Tempest) complained that his noble Friend at the head of the Government had "added sarcasm to refusal" by telling hon. Members that they must find a night for themselves. It was, however, perfectly open to them to take either Tuesdays or Wednesdays for the resumption of the debate. His hon. and learned Friend the Member for Devonport (Sir E. Perry) now suggested that the Indian statement should be made at, the beginning, instead of at the end of the Session. The reason why this statement had hitherto been made at the latter period was that the Indian accounts were generally made up to April, and delay took place in order that they might be produced. He was ready, however, to submit his statement at any time, though, whether it was made at the beginning or the close of the Session, he feared he should be equally unsuccessful in securing a good attendance on the part of hon. Members. An instance of the apathy which prevailed on Indian subjects was given some nights ago, when the House was nearly counted out on the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Perth (Mr. Kinnaird); and there was also a very small attendance during the discussion introduced by the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. J. B. Smith), though that was a subject which interested many persons in this country. At present he could not name any day for the Indian Budget, and certainly not before the end of the month could he hope to introduce it. Before sitting down he could not help saying a few words upon what had fallen from the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Thomas Baring) as to the alleged disposition of the Indian Government to prohibit the exportation of coolies. Now, so far from entertaining such a disposition, the Indian Government were anxious by every possible means to assist the coolie emigration, but it was their duty to see that these persons embarked with a perfect knowledge of what they were about, and that the voyage was performed in good and sea worthy vessels. As to making any relaxation with regard to the return passage, a measure of this sort had been viewed with much jealousy by the Indian authorities, because that return passage was supposed to afford the greatest security which could be given for the independence
  896
  of the coolie. It was said, why not leave the coolie to make his own bargain? But it could not be maintained that he was a perfect match for the planter, or that the Government should not watch over the transactions between them. He had, however, with the concurrence of the Court of Directors, written a dispatch giving instructions that this subject should be properly considered in India; and if any means could be suggested by which the existing restrictions could be removed, while at the same time due precautions continued to be taken to secure the independence and fail treatment of the Coolie,—if, for example, a satisfactory method could be adopted of commuting his return passage for land, while it left him at perfect liberty to claim his return passage if he thought fit—he was certain there would be no indisposition on the part of the Indian Government to take these suggestions into consideration.
  MR. KERSHAWobserved, that he could not quite agree with those who thought the House apathetic on the subject of India; but, whatever might be the feeling here, he could assure the House that the country was becoming more than ever interested in the affairs of India; and in the northern districts especially it was no wonder that this should be so. The short supply of cotton and the consequent want of employment were already telling, and in the borough with which he was connected he believed two-thirds of the mills had been working short time for at least a month past. Under these circumstances, he joined in the appeal to the noble Lord to fix a day for the renewal of the debate.
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, that the numerous applications which had been made to the noble Lord for a day on which to resume the discussion did not show that there was that apathy on the subject which the right hon. Gentleman had stated to exist. It was true that when the hon. Member for Perth (Mr. Kinnaird) brought on the question there was a disinclination on the part of the House to entertain it; but he was informed that that arose from an impression that the hon. Member was in some degree forestalling the Motion of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. J. B. Smith), and that to raise a discussion upon the state of India on the petition of the missionaries was hardly a fitting mode of introducing the question to the House. As the noble Lord at the head of the Government had informed the House that they

  897
  must find a day for themselves for renewing the debate, the noble Lord must not object if, availing themselves of the forms of the House, they should bring it on in a manner not quite so regular and formal as they could have wished.
  MR. CAMPBELLobserved, that the disastrous intelligence recently received from India, the disaffection of a portion of the native regiments, and the insecurity of life and property which prevailed there would seem to render it desirable that a day should be appointed for concluding the debate.
  MR. TURNERsaid, he also wished to express his concurrence in this view, and assure the House that the question excited a great amount of interest out of doors. He regretted exceedingly that the noble Lord at the head of the Government had not made an effort to give them a night for the further discussion of the subject. The noble Lord had recently visited Manchester, where he had seen a vast population, well attired, and apparently in prosperous circumstances, assembled together to give a loyal reception to their Sovereign. If the noble Lord should visit Manchester towards the close of the year, he feared that he would see it under a different aspect. He would still find the factories closed, and see no smoke issuing from their chimneys; but the cause would be the stoppage of trade, and the consequent absence of employment arising from the scarcity of cotton.
  Motion agreed to.
  House at rising to adjourn till Monday next.

  PONTEFRACT ELECTION.
  House informed, that the Committee had determined—
  That William Wood, esquire, is duly elected a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Pontefract.
  And the said Determination was ordered to be entered in the Journals of this House.

  NEW WRITS—MOTION.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON, in rising to propose the Resolution of which he had given notice will respect to the issuing of new writs consequent upon the unseating of a Member for bribery or treating, said, that it was one which the House had agreed to on former occasions. Its
  898
  object was, that if arising out of the circumstances of an election there should appear to be grounds for taking any measure affecting the borough itself, time might be given for hon. Members to make any Motion they might think fit upon the matter; and that the new writ might not be issued by surprise so as to preclude the House from taking into consideration any circumstances disclosed by the proceedings of the Election Committee affecting the borough itself.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That in all cases when the Scat of any Member has been declared void by an Election Committee, on the grounds of Bribery or Treating, no Motion for the issuing of a new Writ shall be made without seven days previous notice being given in the Votes."
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, he had no doubt that the House would come to a unanimous decision upon this subject; but he would beg them to consider, before they assented to the Motion, what might be the consequences if the Resolution were framed in terms of so stringent a character as those proposed by the noble Lord. The precedents in favour of this Resolution were not very numerous. It was of modern introduction into the practice of the House, and he could not call to his recollection more than two instances which were similar to the present. In both those cases the House came to a Resolution like that now proposed under circumstances of considerable party excitement and personal feeling in regard to particular elections. They now could consider the question with a complete exemption from those influences, and it was therefore highly desirable that they should not agree to a Resolution the consequences of which might be very different from those which he believed the noble Lord proposed to effect. The Resolution appeared to him (Mr. Disraeli) to be of too stringent a character. It would be quite possible, if it passed, that a city or borough might be disfranchised, by means of it, for the greater part or the whole of a Session. Suppose, for example, that a Report was made to the House finding that a Member was not duly elected, and that the new Resolution was appealed to, a week must elapse before a new writ could be moved for. Hon. Gentlemen might then very naturally say, "Here is a grave charge against this constituency, but we have no proof of it; evidence has been taken before the Committee, and we must wait until that evidence is in the hands of every hon. Member." That

  899
  would lead to a, delay, probably, of a month or six weeks at least. Then there must be another week by this Resolution before the Motion for a new writ could be brought forward. Then hon. Gentlemen might say that they had not had time to consider "this important case;" although the case really might be very paltry; and, in fact, the whole Session might pass without the city or borough being represented in that House. Again, towards the end of a Session there might be a Report; there might not be time to bring the subject to an issue, and during the whole of the recess the place might be unrepresented; for he need scarcely remind hon. Members that it was not merely in debates in that House that constituencies were represented. There were important matters which concerned them during the vacation, when they wanted Members to represent their interests to the Minister, if they were menaced or were not sufficiently defended. All Resolutions of this kind were necessarily of an unconstitutional character. He was not, however, arguing against the general principle of the Resolution, but he thought the House should take care to adopt a Resolution which, while it effected the object in view, produced the least possible inconvenience. They should take security that so unusual and unconstitutional a proceeding should not be had recourse to unless there were a bonâ fide case which required it. He thought that there ought to be a special Report from the Committee, at least, to justify it, and if the noble Lord would not allow a feeling of suspicion to weigh with him in accepting a suggestion made from his (Mr. Disraeli's) side of the House, he would suggest that the House should not have recourse to the proposal of the noble Lord, unless the Committee which had unseated the Member at the same time reported their opinion that the writ should be suspended for the period named by the noble Lord. This arrangement would attain all the advantages proposed, and would at the same time be a great safeguard against the abuses and inconveniences to which he had referred. He proposed, therefore, that the Resolution should pass in this form:—
  "That in all cases when the seat of any Member has been declared void by an Election Committee on the grounds of bribery or treating, and such Committee has reported that in their opinion the writ for a new election should be suspended, no Motion for the issuing of a new writ shall be made without seven days previous notice being given in the Votes."
  MR. T. DUNCOMBEobserved, that he considered that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman would defeat all the objects of the Resolution, which had worked very well in the last Parliament. It was, no doubt, a stretch to suspend the issue of the writ when once the Committee had declared a seat vacant, but it was the duty of the House, when the Committee declared that a Member had been guilty of bribery, to take care that the vacancy should not be filled up unless they were satisfied that the constituency had not abused its privileges. The Resolution was agreed to in 1852, after the passing of the Bill which empowered the Crown, on an address from both Houses of Parliament, to issue a Commission to inquire into the extent of the corrupt practices in the constituency. But if they were to rely on the Report of the Committee, how could they ascertain whether it was a case to justify an Address to the Crown or not? The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that even if two or three hundred cases of bribery could be proved, the counsel before the Committee confined themselves to one or two cases sufficient to unseat the Member, but kept the others back to save the constituency. Would a Committee be justified in recommending the House to suspend the writ when only one or two cases had been proved, and they had no power to institute any further investigation? In the last Parliament five Commissions were issued on the recommendation of the Committees, in the case of Canterbury, Cambridge, Hull, Maldon, and Barnstaple, and in each ease the result was the discovery of a far greater amount of corruption than had been proved before the Committees, and the five constituencies were reported to have been guilty of corrupt practices, quite as strong, if not stronger, than any to be found in the Report on which they had disfranchised Sudbury and St. Albans, and the five writs were suspended until after the passing of the Corrupt Practices Prevention Act. He thought there was ample ground for resolving that the issuing of the writ should not depend on the Report of the Committee, and the Amendment would only provide the means for evading a valuable Resolution, which had been found to work well in practice.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that the object of the Resolution was to prevent a writ from being issued, without previous notice to the House, in order to enable them to become acquainted with the facts

  901
  of the case. Under the existing law, there was a power given to the Committee to make a special Report as to the existence of corrupt practices, and that further inquiry was necessary; in that event, the issuing of the writ was suspended, and therefore the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman was quite unnecessary in such a case. The object of the Resolution was to take care that the writ should not be issued as a matter of course when the seat was declared vacant; but he felt there was very considerable force in the objection of the right hon. Gentleman—to laying down a general rule of suspension; it might happen that a single case of bribery would unseat a Member at the end of a Session, and they could not desire that a constituency should on that account remain unrepresented for perhaps several months. If the Report was made at the close of the Session, the borough or county would be also exposed to the inconvenience of a very lengthened canvass. At the same time, precautions ought to be taken against surprise by the immediate issuing of the writ. He did not know whether it was intended to alter the Resolution then; but he would suggest that it should be withdrawn for further consideration. He would propose to leave out the seven days, and insert two days, or perhaps the words "without previous notice," would be sufficient to meet the difficulty, as that period would enable any hon. Member who conceived there was ground for the further suspension of the writ to bring the matter before the House.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, he did not wish to press the suggestion which he had thrown out for the consideration of the Government; but he should be glad to have the further consideration of the question postponed until Monday, when the House would have an opportunity of listening to the opinions of some of their most intelligent and influential Members who were absent at that moment.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he had no objection to that course, as the Resolution ought not to be adopted without full deliberation.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  SUPPLY—MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
  House in Committee. Mr. FITZROY in the Chair.
  (1.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £24,728, be granted
  902
  to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of the Salaries of the Governors, Lieutenant Governors, and others, in the West Indies, and certain other Colonies, to the 31st day of March 1858."
  SIR JOHN TRELAWNYinquired whether the grant of £3,500 for the Governor of Jamaica was a new grant?
  MR. LABOUCHEREreplied in the negative.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that the grant for the salary of the Governor of Jamaica was placed upon the taxes of this country for the first time three years ago. The people of Jamaica, for a vast number of years, had always paid the salary of their Governor; but in 1854, on account of the distress in Jamaica, it was proposed that £3,500, being one-half of the salary, should be paid out of the taxes of this country for a period of three years. Since that time he had received a communication from Jamaica stating that the people there did not want this country to be taxed for their Governor. It appeared that the salary of the Governor of Jamaica had amounted originally to £7,000, and that after the Parliament of this country had agreed to pay half of that amount, the Assembly of Jamaica had reduced their contribution, first to £2,500 a year, and subsequently to £1,500 a year. It had, upon a former occasion, been distinctly stated, upon the part of the Government, that the continuance of the contribution from this country would be required only for a period of three years, in order to meet the distress under which Jamaica was then suffering. That period had elapsed, and the distress had ceased to exist, and he, therefore, saw no good reason why the payment of the amount in question should not be dispensed with. Under these circumstances, he should move that the Vote be reduced by a sum of £3,500. He perceived that there was also an item of £1,800 contained in the Vote for the payment of the annual salary of the Governor of Western Australia, which was the only one of the Australian Colonies on whose account a similar payment was made. Taking into account the fact that the state of that colony was now one of great prosperity, he saw no good reason why the item should be retained in the Vote, and, therefore, unless he heard some good reason assigned for its continuance, he should move its rejection also.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £21,228, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of the Salaries of the Governors, Lieutenant Governors, and others,

  903
  in the West Indies, and certain Other Colonies, to the 31st day of March 1858."
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that within his recollection it had been a frequent subject of discussion in Parliament whether the salaries of the Governors of our Colonies ought or ought not to be paid out of the funds of this country; and he had heard some of the most distinguished Member of the House—such, for instance, as the late Sir R. Peel, his noble Friend near him (Lord Palmerston), and the noble Lord the Member for London, contend that considering the Imperial position which those high functionaries filled, their relations to the Crown and the Colonies, and the importance of securing their perfect independence, the cost of their maintenance ought to be defrayed out of the Imperial Exchequer. But, perhaps, at the present moment, there existed great practical objections to carrying that principle into effect. At all events, he felt that in the case of flourishing Colonies it was only natural that the House of Commons should decline to take upon themselves such a charge. But he did not think that they ought to object to meet the moderate demands which were made on them under peculiar circumstances by that vote. It should be remembered, that almost all of this not large sum of £24,728 was to go to the payment of the salaries of the Governors of our West Indian Colonies, and that these Colonies had of late years been placed in an exceptional position by circumstances which he need not then detail. He was happy to be able to admit that they were at present recovering from their depression, and that they were in the enjoyment of a state of comparative prosperity; but he would add, that he hoped the House would not be disposed to deal harshly with them on the first return of their better fortunes. With respect to the payment of the salary of the Governor of Jamaica, his hon. Friend who had just sat down was correct in stating that the arrangement come to upon that subject was one of a provisional character, and that it had been understood that it should be open to reconsideration. When he had last addressed the House in reference to the matter he had proposed that the existing arrangement should continue throughout the period of Sir H. Barkly's tenure of office, which he had then anticipated would extend over three or four years. But it had since been suddenly brought to a close by the tranference of that able and
  904
  distinguished public servant to the Governorship of the Colony of Victoria. It then became a question for the consideration of himself (Mr. Labouchere) and of the Treasury whether they should place Governor Darling, the successor of Sir H. Barkly, in a position in which his first act in his new office would probably be a dispute with the Assembly of Jamaica with respect to the payment of his salary; and as he had arrived at the conviction that it was extremely desirable to avoid such a collision, he had thought it proper to ask the House to agree to the payment of that moderate charge. He had, therefore, retained the item of £3,500 in the Vote, and when it was borne in mind that the residence of the Governor of Jamaica was a very extensive building and required a large sum of money to keep it up, he was of opinion that the Committee ought not to regard the item as exorbitant. With regard to the payment of the salary of the Governor of Western Australia, he had to observe that that Colony was to some extent differently situated to the other Australian Colonies, which had received representative Governors, and were therefore bound to provide for their own expenditure. Western Australia was also used as a convict settlement for Imperial purposes; and that was, in his opinion, a sufficient reason why this country should bear a portion of the cost of its Government. Under all the circumstances of the case he hoped that his hon. Friend would not think it necessary to press his Amendment to a division.
  SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, he did not propose that there should be any diminution in that Vote. It seemed to him, on the contrary, that it was too little in amount, and that considering the cost of living in the West Indies, too small an allowance was made to those Governors. But there were one or two details in the Vote with respect to which he should be glad to receive some explanations. He found that there was set down a sum of £4,000 for the Governor of the Windward Islands. He wished to know where that functionary resided? [Sir C. WOOD: In Barbadoes.] He had always understood that Barbadoes was popularly called one of the Leeward Islands. There was also a Vote of £3,000 for the Governor of the Leeward Islands, and he had to ask where that officer resided? [Sir C. WOOD: At Antigua.] Again, upon that point, he had

  905
  to observe that he believed Antigua was usually considered a Windward Island, and he did not know whether it had ceased to be so named.
  SIR JOHN TRELAWNYsaid, the question was not whether the Vote was too large in amount, but who were the persons upon whom its payment should devolve. It was better he thought that the Colonies should themselves be allowed to defray the expenses of their own Government, and he certainly could not concur in the justice of the view taken by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies, that because the Governor of Jamaica had a large house to maintain his salary should therefore be correspondingly increased. He saw no reason why that gentleman should not live in a smaller house, unless, indeed, the colonists, consulting their own dignity, chose to defray the charge of locating him in a more expensive establishment.
  MR. A. MILLSsaid, he did not mean to oppose the Vote; but he wished to take that opportunity of expressing a hope that the time was not distant when those payments for colonial governors would disappear from our Estimates, and the Colonies provide for their own expenses.
  MR. BRISCOEsaid, he wished to know whether the Committee was to understand that the right hon. Gentleman proposed that that payment to the Governor of Jamaica was to cease on the occasion of the next change in the office?
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he could not give any pledge upon that subject. When Governor Darling was appointed, he had been told that the Vote would be proposed to the Committee, and this had been done; but as regards the future he (Mr. Labouchere) wished to leave the matter open for future consideration.
  MR. F. CROSSLEYremarked, that he considered that if the Colonies appointed their own governors they would be better governed than at present.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he was not surprised at what had fallen from the gallant Admiral, because he had never known him to oppose any Vote, however extravagant, since he had had a seat in that House. No doubt his constituents of Southwark would be much obliged to him. All the Colonies, except the West India Colonies, paid the expenses of their own Government, and Her Majesty's Ministers were not acting wisely in saddling the country
  906
  with a now charge like that of the Vote for the Governor of Jamaica; and, moreover, it was a distinct understanding that the Vote should be discontinued after the lapse of three years. Considering, however, that there were probably not forty Members present, and therefore, if he divided, that the House might be counted out, he would not press his Amendment to a division.
  SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, the attack made upon him by the hon. Member was most unjust. He had always endeavoured to do his duty to his constituents by checking extravagant expenditure, although certainly he could not always vote with the hon. Member, who appeared to him to be in the habit, without reason of any description, to move, if a sum of £4,000 was asked for, that it be reduced to £3,000, or if £3,000, that it be reduced to £2,000. He should recommend the hon. Gentleman to look to his own line of conduct before he ventured to reprimand others.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  (2) £21,450, Stipendiary Justices in the West Indies, and the Mauritius.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he must object to the item of £7,200 for the salaries of magistrates in Jamaica. He should like to know what possible good this country derived from that expenditure. The charge had been introduced at the time of the emancipation of the slaves, but now appeared to be permanent.
  MR. LABOUCHEREexplained that at the period of the emancipation of the negroes in the West Indies an arrangement had been made for the appointment in those Colonies of stipendiary magistrates, whose services it was thought would be for some time required in the administration of justice, and whose salaries were to be paid out of the Imperial Exchequer. The charge, however, would not be permanent, unless those officials proved immortal; for when any of them died, the vacancy so created was not to be filled up, or at least was not to be filled up at the expense of this country; and in point of fact, the Vote had in that way been reduced since last year by a sum of £2,850. This was the first time he had ever heard the Vote objected to.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, he would remind the Committee and the hon. Gentleman who objected to all these small sums,

  907
  that a heavy blow had been inflicted on the property of the West Indies in the year 1834, and that those Colonies had since been subjected to additional disasters, in consequence of the determination of the mother country to carry out, at all hazards, the policy of free trade.
  Vote agreed to; as was also,
  (3.) £10,230, Civil Establishments, Western Coast of Africa.
  (4.) £19.609, St. Helena.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that one item in this Vote required explanation. It appeared that the Governor of that island had within a period of four years withdrawn from the commissariat chest a sum of £18,800, in consequence of some misunderstanding, as it was mildly called. He wished to know whether there was to be any further charge upon that account?
  MR. WILSONsaid, that until a few years ago the establishment of St. Helena was supported by a Vote of the House, but in 1846 it was resolved that it should be paid by the Colony itself. The Governor, by some mistake of his instructions, thought that he was justified in withdrawing from the commissariat chest any deficiency for the extraordinary expenses of the island. That went on for four years without its being discovered, and when it was discovered a Treasury Minute was passed, in which they very strongly repudiated their right to repay this sum. The matter had remained in abeyance since 1851. The island had been successful in paying its current expenditure, but it had not been so successful as to enable it to repay the sum thus taken from the commissariat chest. Under these circumstances he (Mr. Wilson) had thought it was useless to keep the account open, and that the best course was to repay to the commissariat chest the amount which had been drawn from it. The arrangement had, on the whole, been advantageous to this country, for no Vote had recently been taken for the expenses of the establishment at St. Helena, which were defrayed entirely from the local revenue.
  Vote agreed to; as were also,
  (5.) £960, Heligoland.
  (6.) £3,831, Falkland Islands.
  (7.) £5,700, Labuan.
  Mr. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he must complain of the expense of the Government establishments there, and thought that they ought to be given up.
  MR. LABOUCHEREstated, that the
  908
  expectations which had been formed with regard to this Colony had not been realized, but he thought the Government had been fully justified in trying the experiment of establishing a colony in Labuan, where there was a magnificent harbour, and where it had been supposed that a large supply of coal might be obtained, which would have proved very beneficial in the case of a war, and with reference to steam communication with the East. He was ready to admit that the Companies which undertook to work those coal mines, had not been very successful, but at the same time he did not think the experiment ought to be prematurely abandoned, and he asked the Committee to give it a fair trial. If upon further experience it should be found inexpedient to maintain the Colony, he should not be disposed to protract the experiment.
  MR. MAGUIREremarked, that he wished to inquire whether it was necessary for that experiment that the treasurer at Labuan should receive a salary of £500, which amounted to a charge of 16 per cent upon the entire amount he was called upon to distribute? He (Mr. Maguire) was not surprised that the right hon. Gentleman entertained serious misgivings with regard to the success of this Colony, and he (Mr. Maguire) was disposed to think the best course would be to abandon it altogether. In a despatch from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) to the Governor of the colony (Mr. Edwards) the following passage occurred:—
  "Your Report exhibits extensive sickness, calling for drainage which the Colony is too poor to execute; public buildings falling into decay for want of necessary repairs; and, finally, a landslip which has damaged the works and buried some of the coal of the Archipelago Company. You inform me that the fever is peculiarly fatal to Chinamen, so that it has driven away some of the Chinese settlers, and has kept away other native settlers whose presence would be of advantage."
  The island, it must be remembered, depended mainly upon the labour of Chinamen, to whom the climate appeared to be extremely fatal, and there did not seem to be any probability of the establishment of a permanent Colony.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he would state as a reply to the question of the hon. Gentleman, that if the treasurer depended solely for his salary upon a percentage on the amount of expenditure his emoluments would be almost worthless, and he did not think that £500 was too high a salary for

  909
  a gentleman occupying a position of so much trust and importance.
  MR. W. EWARTsaid, he wished to ask if there was any prospect of the coal mines becoming productive for commercial purposes?
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that very sanguine expectations had been entertained at first, with regard to the produce of the coalfields at Labuan. In consequence of accidents and other circumstances these expectations had not been realized, though, he believed, that some hopes were still entertained of success, but he did not think the experiment ought to carried on much longer. He was, however, of opinion that the experiment ought to have a fair trial, for if a really useful British settlement could be established at Labuan, it would be of the utmost importance to this country.
  Vote agreed to; as was also,
  (8.) £10,000, Hong Kong.
  (9.) £13,424, Emigration Board, &c.
  MR. ADDERLEYsaid, the gradual diminution of this Vote proved the uselessness of this Board. When this Vote commenced, the Colonies took no part in the promotion of emigration; now, however, they took a very active one. At one time it was a great object with the Imperial Legislature to induce the poor to emigrate, because there was supposed to be a surplus population. The reverse was the case now. It was, however, still a great object with the Colonies, and he hoped it would long continue to be so, to encourage emigration from Great Britain in preference to emigration from any other part of the world. That being so, the Colonies should bear the expense. That they thought so themselves was evident, for they actually voted sums which were sent over to this country to be disposed of by the Board. This produced the anomaly that the funds belonged to one party, and the agency to another. The Colonies were much dissatisfied with the management of these funds, so much so that they had established an agency of their own, though it was subsidiary to the Board. He did not object to the maintenance of those officers who were entrusted with the carrying out of the Passengers Act, but he thought it more advisable that they should be placed under the control of the Colonial Office. He should not oppose the Vote at present, because he felt that the Board could not be instantly abolished, but he gave notice that when he had received the
  910
  returns he had moved for on the subject, he should call the attention of the House to the question with the view to the reduction of that part of the Vote which referred to the chairman, commissioner, secretary, establishment, and contingencies, when these estimates should be brought forward next year.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that the hon. Gentleman seemed to think the business of the Emigration Board had decreased. He was not prepared with the statistics at that moment, or he could show that the fact was otherwise. He had indeed been enabled to recommend that the establishment should be diminished to the amount of one Commissioner, and he believed that, notwithstanding the carrying out of that recommendation two years ago, no public department was better conducted. The Board had still very important duties to perform, in connection with passenger vessels, coolie emigration, and claims made on the Treasury, and it would, for the present at least, be quite impossible to dispense with their services. He might also state that the Bill relating to the appointment of emigration agents which had been introduced into the Legislature of the Colony of Victoria had not yet passed. He thought it of importance that the emigration offices should continue under the direction of a distinct department, which, however, was under the control of the Colonial Office. There certainly was not room at the latter department for the admission of a new branch, in fact they had hardly room for their own clerks.
  MR. BRISCOEsaid, he would not go into the question whether the population of this country was in excess, but there certainly were large numbers of persons who could not obtain employment. For instance, great difficulty in getting employment was experienced by persons discharged from prisons and reformatories. He thought it well worth the attention of the Government and the Emigration Board, whether some portion of the funds at the disposal of the latter might not be devoted to assisting those who were discharged from the reformatory at Red Hill and other similar institutions to emigrate.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, he should much regret if this Vote were to be diminished by a single farthing, knowing the frauds that were detected by these officers. He would beg to instance a case in which, upon overlooking the provisions of a vessel

  911
  in which 200 persons were going out, it was found that what had been put on board as bread was really clay made up into the form of biscuits; and another case in which, after a vessel of 1,500 tons had been three times inspected by the officer at Liverpool, and on each occasion found to have the right number of men on board—in fact a full crew—a hooker came alongside a few minutes after the officer had left, on the termination of the last inspection, and took away twelve of the crew. A storm came on soon after she had set sail; and, the crew not being sufficient to manage the vessel, the captain was obliged to put into an Irish port for repairs, and to make up the deficiency of the crew. He hoped nothing would be done to diminish the efficiency of the staff. He did not wish to encourage emigration, but if people would emigrate, they ought to be protected against the frauds of the land-sharks.
  MR. KINNAIRDbegged to remind the hon. Gentleman who spoke last that the hon. Member for North Staffordshire (Mr. Adderley) had not objected to the continuation of the emigration offices, but only to that of the Board. And he (Mr. Kinnaird) feared that the existence of that Board prevented the Colonies from doing all that they might do to promote emigration. While he admitted that the condition of emigrant ships had been greatly improved of late, still he would urge that, if possible, a more rigid inspection of them should be kept up at the different outports.
  MR. PALKcomplained of the restriction which the Emigration Board placed on the classes emigrating in particular districts. Artisans, skilled labourers, and good domestic servants, he believed, were the only classes allowed a free passage.
  MR. VANCEremarked that he wished to know if the money granted by Government in aid of emigration was given on any particular principle. There were complaints made in Ireland, that by the exercise of political patronage in particular districts, there the peasantry were enabled to emigrate at the expense of the nation, but not in others. He should like to know on what principle, if any, the aid was granted.
  MR. LABOUCHEREcould assure the hon. Member that political influence had nothing whatever to do with the choice of emigrants. The whole of the arrangements connected with the system of emigration in this country, as well as all the appointments for carrying them out, were
  912
  made by a permanent officer at the head of the Emigration Department, and the Colonial Office had nothing whatever to do with those arrangements or appointments. As to the principle on which free passages were granted, the requirements of the Colony were always studied with respect to the class of emigrants sent out from time to time, as well for the interests of the Colony as of the emigrants themselves, care being taken that the latter should be of an age and condition to be useful members of the society among whom they were destined to live.
  MR. W. H. G. LANGTONsaid, that he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would take into consideration the claims of Bristol as a Government emigration port.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that any representation on that subject would be duly considered. The Emigration Board had no objection to place agents at any port where they could be usefully employed.
  Vote agreed to; as was also
  (10.) £2,175, Distressed Emigrants in Canada and New Brunswick.
  (11.)£120.000, Holyhead Harbour.
  MR. LINDSAYsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the enormous sum of money expended on the works at Holyhead Harbour from time to time. From £628,000, which was the original estimate for the new harbour of refuge, the total cost of the works to the present time had run up to £1,303,000, and the Committee had no guarantee that the expenditure would stop at that point. It was now proposed to extend the pier 500 feet further into the sea than was originally intended, which would of course be attended with very considerable expense. The original object of the harbour, of which he had no complaint to make, was that it should be used as a packet station between this country and Ireland; but it had since been determined to make the place a harbour of refuge. If harbours of refuge were required in St. George's Channel, he much doubted whether Holyhead was one of the places best adapted for the purpose. Then it was asked for on the ground of increase of trade, but he thought he could show by a reference to figures that the port had not increased to a very great extent. He found from a not very intelligible return made by Captain Skinner, the port commander at Holyhead, that the number of vessels entering the new harbour of Holyhead in the six months ending the 30th of June, 1852, was 255,

  913
  having an aggregate tonnage of 15,285, and that in the six months ending the 30th of June, 1856, the number was 1,117, having an aggregate tonnage of 83,848. Now, 255 vessels—the number which entered in the first half of the year 1852—assuming they were each of the burden of sixty tons, would have an aggregate tonnage of 15,300. Now, many a ship-owner owned 15,000 tons of shipping; he (Mr. Lindsay) himself owned as much. And if one steamer of 80 tons register entered the port of Holyhead each day, that one steamer alone would represent a tonnage of 14,600 in six months. If two, steamers of 280 tons register entered each day it would give a gross tonnage of, 83,000 tons, and therefore he did not see any reason why, upon the ground of increased trade, the Committee should be called upon to vote more money. But it was said to be the intention of the Government to make Holyhead a port of call for American packets, not only for the mails and passengers, but for their cargoes. If, however, the American packets were removed from Liverpool, they would go to some point at the extreme west, such as Milford Haven or Galway, and not to Holyhead. As long as the House went on voting money for harbours of refuge, those harbours would never he finished. The only way to get them finished was to stop the supplies.
  SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, it was quite right that the attention of the Committee should be called to the expenditure of sums which, no doubt, in the aggregate were very large; but the hon. Gentleman had a little misunderstood the facts of this case. The hon. Gentleman said they were going to convert the packet harbour of Holyhead into a harbour of refuge. The hon. Gentleman was under an entire mistake, and had evidently not taken the trouble to refer to papers which for the last three years had been on the table of the House. As long ago as 1844, it was proposed that Holyhead should not only be the principal line of communication between this country and Ireland, but that it should be a harbour of refuge. It was so intended when first the construction commenced in 1847. Ample information had been given from time to time. There were two Commissions and a Report in 1843. In 1844, Mr. Rendell was called upon to submit a plan to the Treasury, and in consequence he laid before them a proposal for a packet station in connection with a har-
  914
  bour of refuge. Another Report, with estimates, was made in 1845, and on the 3rd of April, 1846, the Treasury authorized the construction of a harbour for a packet station and for a harbour of refuge at Holyhead. In 1847 there was a further Report by three naval officers, confirming former Reports, that Holyhead would be most convenient, not only for a packet station, but for a harbour of refuse. The hon. Gentleman said, one reason given for the Vote was the increasing trade of Holyhead; he begged to assure the hon. Gentleman that he would not find in any of the papers a syllable about the trade of Holyhead, the fact being that the trade there was not worth the construction of a harbour of refuge. The object was to afford shelter to the numerous vessels passing up and down the Irish Channel. The trade of Liverpool, Ireland, and America was intimately concerned in the existence of a harbour of refuge at Holyhead, which was a safe harbour, accessible at all times of tide, and sufficiently marked by lights to be easily entered. He did not know where the hon. Gentleman got his notion about the removal of the Liverpool packets, but there was not a word in any of these papers to justify it. It was hardly probable that, with the enormous commercial intercourse which existed between Liverpool and America that vessels with cargo would start from any other place than Liverpool. It had been thought by some persons that, as Liverpool was not the best port in the world, it might be convenient for the Liverpool packets to call at Holyhead to land passengers and mails, which would enable them to arrive so much the earlier and start so much the later. The hon. Gentleman said he did not understand what was the use of a harbour of refuge at Holyhead, but he would call attention to the number of vessels which had availed themselves of it. In the course of thirty years, the trade and shipping of the country had enormously increased, and the original plan was enlarged in order to increase the roadstead at Holyhead, and to afford greater accommodation. Representations were made to the Admiralty by Captain Skinner that the number of vessels taking refuge in the harbour was very greatly increasing, and on consulting with the hydrographer of the Admiralty it was determined to increase the accommodation. A return which had been laid upon the table of the House showed how great this increase had been; and here he would re-

  915
  mark that what the Committee ought to look to was the number of vessels and not the amount of tonnage. This return gave the number of vessels which had taken refuge in the harbour in each six months from the 1st of January, 1852, up to the present time. These numbers, in the successive half years, were 255, 259, 483, 810, 831, 840, 834, 872, 1,117, and, in the half year ending December 31, 1856, 1,325. This rapid increase was of itself a complete justification of the demand for additional accommodation. Moreover, the necessity of providing the means of rapid communication with Ireland must not be overlooked. A contract had lately been entered into for an improved communication, and the vessels which would be required to carry it out with the specified speed, would have to be of an increased size, so that additional accommodation would be requisite for them also. On a former occasion the House had called upon the Government to undertake the improvement of Holyhead Harbour, and he hoped, therefore, that they would not now sanction this proposition for stopping the works which were going on.
  SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, he wished to know whether in the 1,325 vessels quoted by the right hon. Baronet as having taken refuge in Holyhead Harbour during the last six months, were included the short passage steamers which left the harbour in the morning and came in in the evening? If so, they of themselves would be sufficient to make up the number. He was in favour of harbours of refuge, if necessary, and also in favour of rapid communication between London and Dublin; but he thought that a case was hardly made out for the proposed expenditure of £100,000 for the harbour.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, the harbour under consideration was the new harbour, and if the practice had not been altered since he was last at Holyhead, the steam packets were confined to the old harbour. [Sir C. WOOD: Hear.] He had no knowledge of what was the original intention of Holyhead Harbour, but so long as he remembered, it had always been talked of as being for the double purpose of facilitating communication with Ireland and affording a place of refuge for vessels in stress of weather. The increased number of vessels which took advantage of the harbour as a place of refuge showed the necessity of additional accommodation, while he considered it as superior for that purpose to any
  916
  other harbour which had been suggested on that coast. But, however that might be, he certainly did not think the stopping all supplies would be the best way of remedying the general demerits of the system which now existed with reference to harbours.
  MR. LINDSAYsaid, that the words of the Vote showed that it was the intention of the Government to remove the American packet station from Liverpool to Holyhead. He would repeat, however, that if there was to be any removal of the station it ought to be removed to some port in the extreme west. The increase of vessels which appeared in the return as having taken refuge in the harbour was very great, but it was also apparent, from the tonnage of those vessels, that the majority of them must have been but fishing smacks. It was, no doubt, advisable that we should have a good harbour at Holyhead, but what he said was, that to vote a large sum of money to make the harbour a postal station for America was a great mistake.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he could bear testimony from personal observation that the number of vessels which took refuge in Holyhead Harbour had not been exaggerated by the First Lord of the Admiralty. He would further observe, that whether the vessels taking refuge were large or small, it did not affect the value of the harbour, as the object of a harbour of refuge was to save life as well as property.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, the name of Captain Skinner having been mentioned, he wished to say, that he had known that gentleman for a great many years, that he was highly distinguished in his profession, and that he knew no man whose opinion on any subject connected with that profession he would more readily take.
  MR. O'FLAHERTYobserved, that he thought the House ought to know exactly what was the great object in view in laying out so much money on Holyhead Harbour. If it was right that, in addition to being a packet station for Ireland, it should also be a harbour of refuge and a point of communication between Liverpool and America, he had certainly no objection; but they should be exactly informed on the subject, in order that the whole question might be thoroughly considered by the House. He demanded, on the part of other ports, both of England and Ireland,

  917
  that there should be a fair consideration of this question, and that those places should not be checkmated by these annual grants to Holyhead. He could not help thinking that the Government had an object different from that which appeared on the face of the Vote.
  MR. JOSEPH LOCKEsaid, he thought there ought to be some expression of the opinion of the House relative to the annual increases in these Estimates. Last year there was a very large increase in the sum voted, and the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty bad told them this was done with the unanimous sanction of the House. This year there was an increase of £100,000, and if quietly agreed to, the unanimity of the House would be urged next year in favour of another large Vote for the same objects. He objected to the practice of adding to the Estimates after they had been laid before the House. If such things were allowed, it would be impossible to keep a proper guard over the public purse.
  MR. SCHNEIDERsaid, he also was able to speak of the great advantages which the shipping trade of the West of England had derived from Holyhead as a harbour of refuge. Encouragement was given to vessels to put to sea when it was known that there was a harbour of refuge for them to flee to in circumstances of distress. Last winter twenty-five vessels belonging to himself took refuge in Holyhead, and many of them would not have put to sea at the time they did but for the knowledge that they had that harbour to run into. He thought the Government had conferred a great boon upon the country in erecting Holyhead into a harbour of refuge.
  MR. HUDSONobserved, that he did not object to a harbour of refuge at Holyhead or any other place, but he complained that nothing was done for the north of England. The Government had promised to relieve the shipping interest of the north from the payment of passing tolls—a heavy tax from which they derived no benefit whatever—but that promise had not been fulfilled. Harbours of refuge were much desired by the inhabitants of the north of England, and he confessed he did not see why Holyhead, Dovor, and a few other places should alone have public money bestowed on them for these purposes. He wished it to be understood that in future he would oppose any grant of money for harbours of refuge to other parts of the
  918
  country if the north of England were not included.
  Vote agreed to.
  (12.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £224,000, be granted to Her Majesty, towards defraying the Expense of constructing certain Harbours of Refuge, to the 31st day of March I858."
  MR. HENLEYsaid, there could be no doubt, after the discussion that had taken place upon the last Vote, as to the importance of the subject of harbours of refuge, though, at the same time, it was not unattended with difficulties. His principal desire in rising to address them was, to call the attention of the Committee to the objects for which the Channel harbours had been commenced, the progress that had been made with them, especially Dovor harbour, and the probable period in which the works would be completed. He also wished to know whether the Government intended to carry out the works which had been recommended, or whether they had other intentions. The inquiry about Dovor commenced about seventeen or eighteen years ago, when a commission was issued—known as Sir James Gordon's Commission—to inquire into the state of the south-eastern ports. The instructions given to that commission were, to visit the coast between the mouth of the Thames and Selsea Bill, and to examine and report upon the state of the existing harbours, with a view to making them available for various objects. The first object in view was, to afford shelter for vessels passing down Channel, in case of stress of weather; next to make places of refuge for merchant ships from enemies' cruisers in time of war; and thirdly, and most especially to render them fit as stations for armed steam vessels for the protection of our trade in the Channel. Those instructions were followed, and the commission reported that they were decidedly in favour of constructing deep-water harbours by means of breakwaters detached from the main land, upon the same principle as that at Plymouth Sound, and connected with the shore, as in Kingston harbour. The Commissioners added that, in their opinion, the most eligible position for such a station was Dovor Bay. In order to prove that military and naval objects were those which Government had chiefly in view, he might mention that the commission was composed of three fighting men—an admiral, a captain, and a colonel—a Trinity-house master, and two civil engineers.

  919
  Nothing, however, appeared to have resulted from that commission, and about 1842, a committee, known as the Shipwreck Committee, sat, and recommended many things, but it only touched hghtly on harbours of refuge. In 1844 and 1845 another commission was appointed, in which also the fighting element largely predominated, and they recommended, in their first Report on the 7th of August, 1844, that a harbour be constructed at Dover, and that the works should be immediately commenced by carrying out that portion which communicated with Cheesman's Head. They added, that only one work should be taken at a time, giving the preference to Dovor, and in the second place to Portland, or Seaham. All the Commissioners signed that Report except one, Sir William Symonds, who protested against the adoption of Dovor, and reported in favour of Dungeness. Nothing, however, was done, although the question had been under consideration for upwards of four years. He did not, however, find fault with the delay, but he mentioned these circumstances to show that successive Governments had given the subject their most careful and deliberate attention. Mr. Walker and several other engineers were next employed to prepare plans for the harbour, and also to state their opinions as to whether the shingle and silt would destroy the works when completed. They reported in favour of beginning at Cheesman's head, but said that no safe conclusion could be arrived at with respect to the shingle and silt; and, in 1845, they recommended that the south front should be proceeded with. He now came to the second Report of the Commissioners, which was communicated to the Government in 1846. The Commissioners stated, in the first instance, that they were decidedly in favour of a harbour in Dovor Bay, adding that the chief points for consideration were the area, the outlines, the position, the entrances, and the mode of construction. They also recommended that the works should be commenced at as many points as practicable, and expressed their earnest hope that no pecuniary considerations would be allowed to delay the accomplishment of an object of such vast importance for the welfare of our shipping, and the general interests of the country. They also went at some length into the question of construction, and the consequence was two of the commissioners—Sir
  920
  William Symonds and Sir Howard Douglas—dissented from the Report, the former stating that a large area was unnecessary, as the harbour would be visited only by war steamers, post-office packets, and a few disabled or straggling merchant vessels, and that the evidence with regard to silting, and the mode of construction adopted by a majority of the Commissioners—namely, an upright wall —was conflicting and unsubstantial. The reasons of Sir Howard Douglas were stated at length and with great ability in a paper addressed to the Government. The impression left upon his (Mr. Henley's) own mind, after carefully reading the evidence given before the Commissioners, was, that almost any amount of respectable testimony might be obtained on behalf of the most contradictory propositions. No man, whether professional or non-professional, who looked at the list of the eminent scientific gentlemen who were examined by the Commissioners, and saw how they disagreed, would venture to give an opinion upon the subject. Hydrostatics and hydraulics, particles in motion and particles at rest, assertions of some witnesses that Plymouth was a total failure, contrasted with those of others, that it was a great success—these things, with many more, danced through the evidence in the most extraordinary manner, producing a jumble and confusion of ideas which it would be difficult to describe. His own opinion was, if he might venture to have one, that, as in many other instances, the votes went one way, and reason another. At last, however, in the autumn of 1847, after a deliberation of seven or eight years, the works were commenced, the Commissioners having decided—Sir Howard Douglas and Sir William Symonds dissenting—to build the walls nearly upright, and to enclose an area of about 520 acres. The estimated expense was stated to be about £2,500,000. He now came to the progress of the works, and here he must express the strong opinion, which he thought would be shared by the Committee, that it was very desirable the country should be informed what the Government really meant to do with these works—whether they intended to carry them out upon the original plans, or how they proposed to mod fy them. They began with taking some £30,000 or £40,000 a year, and the first contract, which was for a length of 800 feet, was concluded in 1854. A second contract was then entered

  921
  into for 1,000 feet, still proceeding upon the plans which accompanied the final Report of the Commissioners, and in which no material alteration was made, except as to size and the position of the entrances. Up to the present time, therefore, the progress of the works had been extremely slow. Only 800 feet out of one mile and three-quarters, which was the length of the whole plan, were completed in 1854, with some little extension of the foundations, and the contract which had been entered into since then for 1.000 feet was to extend over ten years, ending in 1864, being at the rate of 100 feet per annum. It did not seem to him that the works had progressed even at that rate, and he would presently make some observations to show the reason why they had not done so. This work had to be executed by means of the diving-bell in deep water; and here he could not help taking this opportunity of saying that he believed no praise could he too high for the skill of the engineers and the whole of the persons employed in carrying out the undertaking. It was right to state that he was not here to find fault with the workmanship, for he believed that it would be impossible to carry out a difficult and arduous work with greater skill, energy, and industry, or with greater perseverance. He was bound to bear his willing testimony to that. The work, however, was proceeding at a very slow pace. The Secretary of the Treasury, the other night, in explaining the progress made with the works at Holyhead Harbour, made some remarks so pertinent to his present subject that he could not help quoting them, especially as he was sure they had the sanction of Her Majesty's Government. He said—
  "If important public works of this kind were to be carried out at all, the quicker they were advanced the better for the interests of the community. While the works continued unfinished a vast capital was lying idle, from which the public derived no advantage; whereas, the sooner they were brought to completion the sooner would the country reap the benefit of the expenditure."
  In every word of this he heartily concurred. To carry out great works of this nature in a dribbling manner was nothing less than a waste of public money. Both the Commissioners and Mr. Walker had advised that the works at Dovor should be begun simultaneously at more places than one, and completed as rapidly as possible; and they also attached greater importance to this harbour than to any of the other works which they recommended. These suggestions
  922
  had not, however, been practically attended to. He would now call the attention of the House to some facts to prove his assertions as to the slow progress of the works. Only 800 feet of the masonry had been finished in seven years up to 1854. Another 1,000 feet were contracted to be finished in ten years more, which would bring them to the year 1864. The former part of the work had been executed in comparatively shallow water, but now the operations had to be carried on at about forty-six feet below low water-mark. There still remained to be completed, according to the plans, 8,500 feet, which, at the present rate of progress—namely, 100 feet per annum—would take eighty-five years. If they added to this the seven years required to finish the 1,000 feet contracted to be finished up to 1864, this would give them a period of ninety-two years over which the work would extend. Surely this slow rate of progress involved a great waste of capital, upon which the hon. Gentleman whom he had quoted would dilate at some length. But taking the work done in deep water, and averaging it with that done in shallow water, they would find that between 1847 and 1855 the actual rate of progress was not 100 feet but only eighty-six feet per annum. Indeed, in 1855, only forty-six feet of the foundations had been laid, and in 1856 fifty feet more; and as it was clear the work could not proceed faster than the foundations, instead of the undertaking being completed in 100 years, if it went on at the present rate it would probably require 200 years. Surely, this was a very unsatisfactory prospect; and therefore he thought it would not be considered unreasonable if he asked the Government to state for his information and that of the country, whether they intended to carry out this work according to the recommendation of various Commissions. Sir W. Symonds apprehended some difficulty as to the foundations. Let the Committee mark the facts disclosed on this point in successive Reports from Messrs. Burgess and Walker. In April, 1855, Mr. Walker said—
  "The progress of the works has been much delayed by the weather, and also from the chalk foundation not proving so good as in the portion nearer the shore, as stated in our special report of the 29th of July, 1854."
  The special Report here referred to had not been laid before the House. In July, 1855. Mr. Walker followed up his former statements in these words—

  923
  "The surface of the chalk being still of an inferior quality, it has been necessary to sink the masonry a considerable depth into it to obtain a good foundation. The foundations are forty-one feet below low water, spring tides."
  The Report of the 10th of October, in the same year, said the foundation was still retarded from the necessity of removing a large quantity of soft material before it could be laid. It added, "The foundations are being laid forty-three feet below low water, spring tides." In July, 1856, Mr. Walker reported that "the soft nature of the bottom still retards the progress of the works;" and on the 8th of October, of the same year, he said, "The foundations are being laid upon the same description of bottom as described in our former reports, forty-five feet below low water, spring tides." In April, 1857, the Report stated—
  "The walls are now being placed at forty-six feet below low water, spring tides, upon a foundation of broken flints and sand. This, though not so satisfactory as the solid chalk, has shown no symptom of insufficiency."
  What might be the value of "broken flints" as a foundation he could not say; but to build upon "sand" was not commonly reckoned a very satisfactory process. He begged to ask the Government whether, in the face of these public Reports, they meant to go on with the execution of these works in their entirety, and when they expected them to be completed? The Commissioners distinctly recommended that means should be taken to ascertain what would be the extent of the silting. It was said that the quantity of silting deposited each year was six inches. If that were so the harbour would be filled up long before the expiration of 100 years. He therefore wished to know whether the Government had taken any measures to ascertain what silting, if any, there had been. There were other points on which no information was given in the Reports, but on which he should be glad to receive from the Government as much information as they possessed. A civil engineer named Brooks had written letters to the public journals, stating that the water had altered very much in depth at its entrance. It would be satisfactory to know whether that was correct. Another matter which bore very much upon the time at which the harbour would be completed was the interruption that the work had experienced from time to time from gales of wind. Mr. Walker's Reports, curiously enough, stated some things which certainly threw some light
  924
  upon those discussions which took place before the Commission, as to the manner in which the harbour should be constructed. One point discussed by learned men at that time was whether, in point of fact, there was any percussion by the sea, some maintaining that there was and others that there was not. Mr. Walker's Report, dated January, 1851, referring to the storm which took place on the 23rd of October, 1850, stated that portions of the new works were thrown down during the storm, as they were unable to withstand the continued shocks. Now he (Mr. Henley) apprehended that shocks meant something like percussions. The successive gales and continued shocks washed upwards of 200 tons of stones out of their beds. He had been told by persons conversant with the subject that these stones were of very large size, and that they had been fastened to each other by cramps, in the strongest manner known to engineers. On another occasion the same thing took place. In 1853 many stones were replaced, and it became necessary to take up many other stones in order to replace them. Again, in 1854 a portion of the stones was displaced, and 240 feet of the staging was carried away. These accidents had no doubt occasioned great delay, but it was a matter of great importance to the House to be informed whether the Government really intended to complete the work as recommended by the Commissioners, and whether they intended to proceed at a more rapid rate with it than at the rate of forty or fifty feet a year, for if not, it would occupy from 150 to 200 years in construction, and be like the works at Cherbourg, and other places, portions of which were, up and down, and up and down again, before the whole was completed. The Government ought to state distinctly whether they intended to make a harbour of refuge at all at Dovor, or whether they thought they had gone far enough, and that sufficient shelter for the ordinary class of vessels was afforded by the present pier. It was quite clear that the harbour was at present a defence against enemies rather than against storms. The Government had, of course, been occupied by other matters during the last two or three years, and that might be a reason for the dilatoriness with which the work had been proceeded with. He did not intend to oppose the Vote, because he thought the House was not in possession of sufficient information, to warrant him in taking that course.

  925
  He had no objection to make against the, manner in which the works were being proceeded with at other harbours; but, as the Government had taken about eight years to consider the question as to Dovor Harbour, they ought to tell the House what decision they had arrived at.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had misapprehended what his hon. Friend (Mr. Lindsay) had said with regard to Holyhead Harbour. He did not deny that small vessels required as much protection as large ones, but he maintained that they required a different sort of protection. Not more than six or seven vessels of ninety tons had entered the harbour, and, notwithstanding the accommodation already provided, it was proposed to add 100 additional feet to it.
  THE CHAIRMANinterrupted the hon. Gentleman by reminding him that the Vote with respect to Holyhead Harbour had been agreed to.
  SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, he did not think it was necessary for him to follow the right hon. Gentleman opposite throughout the lengthy details into which he had entered. If any hon. Gentleman had any desire for more detailed information on the subject, he might refer to the evidence given before the Committee of 1848 on Miscellaneous Estimates, before which he (Sir C. Wood) was examined at very great length as to the origin of these harbours of refuge. The right hon. Gentleman had correctly stated, that two Commissions had sat upon the subject, and that it had been considered for a long time by different Governments. The result was the commencement of the works at Dovor to which the right hon. Gentleman had referred. He had also correctly stated, that several gentlemen, learned in such matters, gave very discordant opinions about these works, and he (Sir C. Wood) was not sure that a much more satisfactory result could be arrived at by the House, if the question of construction were again discussed by them. So far as he understood the drift of the right hon. Gentleman's observations, they were directed first to ascertain the plan which the Government proposed to carry into execution at Dovor; and next to complain, that the progress of the works was not quite so rapid as was desirable. As regarded the great question, whether the Government had made up its mind to construct the whole harbour as recommended by the Commission, he was afraid ho could not give the right hon.
  926
  Gentleman any satisfactory explanation, for the simple reason that, as far as he knew, the subject had never seriously been considered by any Government. The two Commissions which had reported, differed as to the area which should be included in that harbour, as well as upon other points, the estimate in the one case being £2,000,000, and in the other £2,500,000. One of these Commissions, in their Report, said—
  "Entertaining the strong opinion we have expressed of the necessity of providing, without delay, a sheltered anchorage in Dovor bay, we venture to urge upon your Lordships' attention the advantage of immediately beginning the works by carrying out the portion which is to commence at Cheesman's-head. Whatever may he finally decided as to the form and extent of the works in Dovor bay, the pier from Cheesman's-head, run out into seven fathoms water, appears to be indispensable as a commencement, and it will afford both facility and shelter to the works to be subsequently carried on for their completion. This will give sheltered access to the present harbour during south-west gales, and protect it from the entrance of shingle from the westward; it will afford time, also, for observation on the movement of the shingle within the bay, and for further inquiry as to the tendency which harbours of large area on this part of the coast may have to silt up."
  That which was recommended as the indispensable commencement of the larger harbour was to carry out the pier from Cheesman's-head into seven fathoms water, and this was all which the Government, up to the present time, had decided upon doing. In 1847, as the right hon. Gentleman had stated, a contract was entered into for carrying out a pier to the extent of 800 feet, beginning from Cheesman's-head, seven years being the time within which that portion of the work was to be executed. In 1853, a further contract was entered into for the extension of this work 1,000 feet further, which would accomplish the original design of carrying out the pier to the westward of the existing harbour into six and a half or seven fathoms of water. This was the extent of work at present contracted for. If the ultimate decision of the Government should be not to construct the larger harbour, a most valuable work would still have been completed, capable of sheltering vessels and of holding a steamer at any state of the tides. The importance of a place of this kind, into which a steamer stationed in the Channel for the protection of our trade could run at any time for the purpose of coaling, would at once be appreciated by the hon. and gallant Admiral

  927
  (Sir C. Napier). The right hon. Gentleman asked, what had been the effect of the pier upon the present harbour. He was happy to say, that the erection of that pier had entirely prevented the accumulation of shingle within the old harbour. The right hon. Gentleman had then referred to a recommendation from the Commissioners, that the work should be commenced in various places at once. The Government, however, thought it much more wise to act upon the other recommendation which he had alluded to, and to commence only so much of the work as was likely to be of immediate use, and to afford a permanent shelter for vessels, whatever might be the decision of the Government with respect to carrying out the entire scheme. As far as it had gone, the erection of the pier was found, as he had said, to have prevented the accumulation of shingle in the harbour, while it afforded great protection from the south-west gales. He quite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, that the work was one which reflected the highest credit upon the engineers and upon all engaged in it. As to its progress, that depended upon the amount of money voted. No doubt, the work might he proceeded with much more rapidly—he was speaking now on the authority of the engineer—if a larger sum were appropriated to carry it on. There were, however, certain economic conditions which interfered. So long as a number of these works were in course of construction, the amount expended on each must be kept within certain bounds, so that the gross amount expended in this way might not be too large. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, that it would be desirable to make more rapid progress; but at the same time it was not true that the works already erected were of no service, and that the money as yet expended was thrown away. On the contrary, he had shown that these works, as far as they had gone, were of the greatest possible advantage to the harbour. This was not a case in which the work was valueless until the whole was completed. Of course, when the whole plan was executed a greater amount of shelter would be afforded, but every successive fifty feet added to that shelter. With regard to the silting, the mere erection of a break water running out at right angles from the shore was not calculated to have any effect on the silting-up of the harbour. That question would arise only in the event of an enclosed harbour, and no perceptible effect
  928
  had been produced one way or the other by the construction of this breakwater.
  SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, he did not believe that Dover harbour would ever, properly speaking, be a harbour of refuge. If they turned to a chart they would at once see that, with a westerly or southwesterly wind, the whole of the trade coming up the Channel would pass the North Foreland and run to the Downs, where they would be perfectly safe. For vessels coming from the westward, therefore, Dover would be perfectly useless; and masters of ships navigating the Channel would tell them that they would no sooner think of running into Dover than they would of getting to the moon. He believed that the construction of a harbour of refuge at Dovor was a hobby of the late Duke of Wellington; but he (Sir C. Napier) was certain that it was utterly valueless for such a purpose. If, however, the work did not proceed more rapidly than at present, it would not he finished for 200 years. So they had better give up all idea of making it on a grand scale, and maintain it, not as a harbour of refuge, but as a place to which our steam ships might resort for the protection of trade in the event of war. In his opinion, if a harbour of refuge was made anywhere, it ought to be either at Sandwich, or in proximity to the Goodwin Sands.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, that what the House had heard from the right hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) and the hon. and gallant Member for Southwark (Sir C. Napier), showed pretty clearly that the best thing to do was to stick to the original plan of 1,800 feet from Cheesman's-head. The point they had now to consider was, who was the responsible party to originate these harbours, to decide upon the locality, and also upon the manner in which the works should be carried out. That was a point which ought to be clearly understood before they came to a decision. A Committee had recently been appointed to inquire into the subject of harbours of refuge, and it was not his intention to offer the slightest disrespect to those hon. Gentlemen; but he must say that to submit to such a Committee questions like these he had just mentioned, was simply ridiculous. It was utterly impossible for the ablest men in that House to deal with these subjects, for this reason—that the evidence they had to examine was such that they must be able to test from practical personal knowledge the value of

  929
  that evidence before they could arrive at a decision. Every hon. Gentleman who was conversant with inquiries before Committees of this House knew that local engineers would often express the strongest opinions in favour of their own particular locality, no doubt in good faith, but still influenced by local prejudices. Now, unless the Committee was composed entirely of engineers, he defied them to test the value of such evidence, and ascertain which was the man who was giving fair evidence, and which was trying to impose upon the Committee. When they came to decide as to the best localities for harbours of refuge they came to a still more difficult question; and this Committee, on which he believed there was only one naval man, would have to decide which was the best locality, say on the east coast of England, for a harbour of refuge, upon the evidence of North Sea pilots and masters of coasters. In a case like that what possible chance had a Committee of this House, unless practically conversant with the subject, of cross-questioning with any advantage men of that description? The thing was useless. The fact was that they were going on in the dark, and unless they knew the authority upon which those works were to be carried out, the sooner they were put a stop to the better. He trusted, then, that the House would be informed what were the questions referred to the Committee just appointed, and how far it was intended the inquiries of that Committee should extend. With regard to the Vote for the harbour at Alderney, it was not his own opinion only, but that of men of the highest authority, that every shilling laid out there had been wasted, and that the money might as well have been thrown into the sea. The great difficulty was for a sailing vessel to get in there at all. And as to supposing that in time of war it would be of any use in watching Cherbourg, the harbours of Portland and Spithead were much better adapted for that purpose, and were within almost as convenient a distance. With regard to Portland, the work there was, in many respects, a most useful one. It was a great national work, and he trusted it would be persevered in.
  SIR GEORGE PECHELLobserved, that he had always understood that Dovor Harbour had been created in deference to the wishes of the Duke of Wellington, as a harbour of aggression rather than a harbour of refuge, his Grace's opinion being that it was absolutely essential that something
  930
  should be done to protect the coasts of this country, especially about that spot. The Dovor Harbour might be a valuable resort to our steamers and other vessels in the English Channel, but he should rejoice if anything were done to relieve the mercantile marine from the gross impositions called "passing tolls," which were now levied upon vessels sailing through the Straits of Dovor.
  MR. LIDDELLremarked, that he did not rise to offer any opposition to the Vote, but he believed that the harbours of Dovor, Portland, and Alderney, as now proposed, were the basis of a great system of national defence, which had received the sanction, approval, and recommendation of the late Duke of Wellington. He objected, however, to works in the nature of national defences being placed on the Estimates as harbours of refuge for shipping. He also thought that the country should be fairly informed of their ultimate expense. The harbour of refuge at Dovor would cost not much less than £5,000,000; the works at Alderney about £1,300,000; and those at Jersey about £600,000 or £700,000. Now he wished to point out to the Government that the coast extending from the Humber to the Forth was unprovided with a single place of refuge into which during north-easterly gales vessels could run with safety. Remembering the proportion which the trade of the Tyne and the Wear bore to the coasting trade of the entire country—the amount of shipping and the number of wrecks, which was greater within a given radius of this coast than on all the rest of the English coast—it was no wonder that the ship-owners of the north-east coast felt a little aggrieved at the vast cost of the works now forming at Dovor and elsewhere, while their own claims met with no recognition.
  MR. LINDSAYsaid, he believed that the subject of a harbour of refuge on the north-east coast had better be left to the Select Committee appointed a few days ago to consider the subject of harbours of refuge. He also doubted whether the House of Commons was warranted in spending so much money at Dovor and Alderney, seeing that there were various parts of the coast where harbours were more required. He should move the reduction of the Vote by £134,000 in order that the question of Dovor Harbour and Alderney Harbour might be referred to the Committee just appointed. The reference

  931
  need not delay the progress of the works more than a few months.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £90,000, be granted to Her Majesty, towards defraying the Expense of constructing certain Harbours of Refuge, to the 31st day of March 1858."
  SIR JOHN JOHNSTONEobserved, he could corroborate the statement of the hon. Member for Northumberland, and could testify to the strong opinion upon the north-east coast that a harbour of refuge ought to be constructed there. He believed that during the last sixteen years a sum of £3,500,000 had been laid out in connection with harbours of refuge throughout the kingdom, while not a penny had been laid out upon the north-east coast for that purpose. He hailed with great satisfaction the circumstance that a Select Committee had been appointed to investigate the subject, because he felt assured that it would be found that, owing to the number of shipwrecks which took place on the north-east coast, the establishment of harbours of refuge there would be found to be a work of pressing necessity.
  MR. WARREsaid, he had never heard so unreasonable a proposition as the one before the House, which went to cut down the expenditure upon works which all present wished to see completed. He trusted that the Committee would not sanction the reduction of the Vote.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, it was to be inferred, from what had fallen from the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty, that Dovor ought to be struck out of the category of harbours of refuge, and that the breakwater there ought to be regarded as being constructed merely with the view of facilitating the entrance of packets into the harbour, and providing for the coaling of steamers. In future the charge for this purpose ought to form part of the Post Office and Naval Estimates. Still, it became worthy of the consideration of the Committee whether so large a sum as was proposed should be expended simply for the attainment of that object. But, while such was his opinion, he could not vote that the sum be struck out, inasmuch as if the underground works of the breakwater were not completed, the money which had already been expended upon them might be perfectly thrown away.
  SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, that the title of "harbours of refuge," under which head the Vote for Dovor and Alderney had for some years been taken, was, perhaps,
  932
  not very appropriate. The fact was, that they were not aggressive harbours, as some hon. Gentlemen had stated, but harbours of military defence. At the time at which a Vote had been taken for them, it had been deemed desirable not to attract the attention of neighbouring nations, whose susceptibility might have been awakened by their formation, and consequently their real purpose had been veiled under the more pacific designation of harbours of refuge, for which purpose they had to some extent been made available. The real object of their construction had, however, been the defence of our coasts and the protection of our trade. In corroboration of that statement, he should read to the Committee the opinion of the Duke of Wellington upon the subject. It was as follows:—
  "I should say that, considering the want of protection from the weather or from military attacks in the Channel, the trade of the port of London will be in a very precarious situation, and will be a very losing one in a variety of ways in time of war, if something is not done beforehand, if anybody will just consider the advantage the French coast enjoys over the coast of this country in the observation of what is passing at sea. It is to the southward; they have the sun at their back, they see everything quite clear, and it is very possible from the coast of France to calculate to a moment at what period a vessel coming up Channel will arrive at particular points, and they may be in readiness to seize her at any point which may happen to be unguarded, supposing the vessel to be without convoy, and supposing that there should be no naval succour at that point to take cave of her."
  It was clear, then, he thought, that the principle upon which the harbours in question had been constructed was that of providing stations of military defence on the south-eastern coast, but the time had now passed when it was possible or necessary to attempt to delude anybody, for every one must know the object of such works as those at Alderney. When the breakwater at Dovor was completed, by carrying it out into seven fathoms water, as recommended by the Commissioners, the harbour would be found a most valuable station for steamers, where they might lie in safety, and take in coal; but, as the Committee would perceive, the right hon. Gentleman opposite was wrong in supposing that that was the sole object of its construction. He could not concur in the opinion that an efficient watch could not be kept on the French coast from those harbours, inasmuch as he believed it impossible that a vessel could leave the port of Cherbourg without being seen from Alderney. With respect

  933
  to harbours of refuge on the north-east coast, they stood on a perfectly difficult footing, for they must be looked on as mere commercial harbours of refuge for the preservation of trading vessels.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, the statement of the right hon. Gentleman proved that a Committee of the House was not the proper place to discuss those questions. If Alderney were intended to watch Cherbourg, it could not fulfil that intention, as 500 vessels might leave Cherbourg without a single vessel in Alderney seeing them. He thought that a Commission properly constituted would be the proper tribunal to which to refer the whole subject, and he could not but regard the work, so far, as having led to an expense which would ultimately prove quite useless.
  MR. PEASEdid not think that the dignity of the House could be maintained by commencing these works, and then not carrying them out to any useful purpose. He deplored what he considered a serious waste of money in respect to one or two of the harbours in question, but he wished that the Committee about to be appointed should be encouraged in considering the question of such harbours of refuge as might be wanted for the purpose of commerce and humanity.
  Amendment put, and negatived.
  Original question put, and agreed to.
  (13.) £12,000, Captured Negroes, &c.
  SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, he rose to express his opinion that the time had arrived when the Government must change the policy they had hitherto pursued. He thought that either a treaty should be concluded with Spain, or that the Government should take the matter into their own hands, and station a great number of cruisers off the coast of Cuba, instead of the coast of Africa. Keeping up insufficient naval establishments on the coast of Cuba was a positive waste of money. He should like to hear some statement of the number of negroes captured of late, and also of the grants of money, amounting to £1,291, to ex-King Pepple. There was a grant of £1,200 to Mrs. Backhouse, widow of the Commissary Judge at the Havannah, who was murdered in consequence of his zeal and activity in the cause in which he was employed. He did not think that the widow of a man who had lost his life in the service of his country should have been placed on that list.
  MR. GREGORYremarked, that he should be sorry to make invidious allusions
  934
  to oppressed potentates, but he thought, before the Committee voted a grant of £1,200 to King Pepple, they should know something of the good he had done. He had heard something of this ex-King, and he believed that since his fallen fortunes the monarch incurred but a moderate expenditure, his chief luxuries being rum and tobacco. He had seen a picture of Pepple sitting in a very unkingly position on a puncheon of rum, with a pipe in his mouth, his costume being a cocked hot and a laced coat, while all the rest of his person was in a primitive state of nature. The rest of the kings and chiefs in the list had only received £190 altogether, while King Pepple had got more than six times that amount.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he had seen King Pepple the other night, and if every item in the Vote was as justifiable as the amount paid to that individual, he would pass it over without objection. That unfortunate person had been the King of Bonny, and made a treaty with the British Government, whereby he agreed to suppress the slave trade in his country for a very small sum. That treaty was, he believed, in strict accordance with the policy which the Government had for many years pursued, and the item in the Vote was for the payment of the balance of the subsidy due under that treaty. He could conceive no better way of putting down the slave trade than by entering into treaties with the chieftains on the coast; but those treaties once made should be scrupulously observed. It seemed unfortunate, however, that the end of all treaties between native chiefs and this country was the dethronement of those chiefs and the annexation of their territory, and that had been the case with this unfortunate ex-King. He trusted, however, that the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs would inquire into the circumstances, and that justice would be done to him. As to the ludicrous picture which had been drawn by the hon. Member for Galway, he could only say that when he saw the ex-King he was as well dressed as the hon. Member himself.
  MR. WILSONsaid, that he begged to remind the Committee that what was before the Committee was a mere memorandum of the expense incurred during the past year, and not an Estimate for the expenses of the year following. With regard to the two items to which reference had been made, he was sure that no one who was acquainted with the eminent services

  935
  of Mr. Backhouse would grudge the small pension to his widow. With regard to the item for the ex-King Pepple, part of it referred to the sum which was furnished to him under the treaty which had been entered into with him for the suppression of the slave trade.
  Vote agreed to, as was also—
  (14.) £11,050 Mixed Commissions for the Suppression of the Slave Trade.
  (15.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £125,089, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Expense of the Consular Establishments Abroad, to the 31st day of March 1858."
  MR. WISEsaid, he wished to ask the noble Lord at the head of the Government whether, at an early period in the next Session of Parliament, he would undertake to appoint a Committee to inquire into the whole consular system?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that the hon. Gentleman was aware that last year the Government gave a pledge to the House that such a Committee should be appointed this year. The reason for not appointing that Committee last year was, that certain returns called for by the Foreign Office, which were essential for the information of the Committee, could not be obtained in time. During the present year the circumstances which had led to the dissolution of Parliament, and the interval which had elapsed before the meeting of the new Parliament, had rendered it impossible that such a Committee could be appointed with any prospect of bringing its labours to a satisfactory conclusion, but he was prepared to assure the House that the Government would take the earliest opportunity next Session to appoint such a Committee, and to lay all the information they could before it.
  MR. A. W. KINGLAKEsaid, he wished to ask the first Lord of the Treasury, in accordance with the terms of his notice, whether Her Majesty's Government is in possession of any information respecting the present condition of the Tartar inhabitants of those parts of the Crimea which were occupied during the late war by the troops of the Allies; and also when, and at what places, British consuls are to be appointed, pursuant to the Twelfth Article of the Treaty of Paris. The Committee would recollect, that when the Western Powers made good their landing in the Crimea, very much depended upon their obtaining means of land transport, and an immense number of arabas or country carts
  936
  and bullocks were collected. They were, however, useless without drivers, the Crimean bullocks not understanding either English or French imprecations, and therefore a great number of the native population were pressed into the service against their own will, and those men accompanied the army to the Alma and then to Balaklava, and remained with them through all the subsequent operations, and during all the sufferings of the winter of 1854, At Eupatoria, also, the Tartars, who had no very strong sympathy for the expedition, were pressed into the service, and thus the native population became committed with their own Government. Under these circumstances the Committee would agree with him, that it became a solemn duty on the part of the Allies to take care, when the invaded country was ceded back again to the Russians, that no harm should happen to those persons on account of the services which they had rendered to the Allies. Now, there were three things which it was necessary to do for the protection of these people, and the first two of these things had been done by the Allies. The first was, that they had succeeded in holding the country until the conclusion of peace, and in the second place they had obtained in the treaty a guarantee that no harm should befall them. The third thing which was now left to do was, to see to the execution of that treaty; and the best way to effect that was, by instituting consular establishments in the neighbourhood of Sebastopol or Eupatoria. A rumour had reached this country that a large portion of the Tartar population of the Crimea had emigrated into the territories of the Porte. It might be that that emigration was a voluntary one, and he trusted that it was so, but it might also have arisen from another cause. One of the most important advantages gained by the treaty with Russia was considered to be the stipulation with regard to the appointment of consuls. Before the war, Russia declined to receive consuls at Sebastopol and on the western coast of the Crimea; but the preliminaries of peace provided that the Black Sea should be opened, and that every facility should be afforded for commercial intercourse, and the treaty of peace declared in terms that Russia should be bound to receive consuls in all the ports of the Black Sea. He found, however, from the Estimates, that the ports at which provision was to be made for consulates were the same places where consuls were stationed

  937
  previously to the war. He wished, therefore, to take this opportunity of asking, whether it was intended that consuls should he appointed at Eupatoria and Sebastopol, in pursuance of the Twelfth Article of the treaty? He did not put the question in any spirit of distrust, but with a confident belief that the answer of the noble Lord would redound to the honour of this country, as the firm protector of all our Allies, however humble they might be.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, his hon. Friend had given a very correct statement of the transactions which occurred during the war, and of the stipulations inserted in the treaty of peace, with respect to the appointment of consuls. In answer to his question, therefore, he begged to inform the hon. Gentleman that his noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Department (Lord Clarendon) was at present occupied in making arrangements for the appointment of consuls in those places in the Black Sea in which it was considered desirable that, under the stipulations of the treaty, such officers should be stationed. The rumour which his hon. Friend had heard was also perfectly correct, as to the fact, though the transaction took place at a somewhat different time. When the Allies quitted the Crimea, a great number of Tartar families who had been more or less engaged in their service did not feel satisfied with the security promised them after the retirement of the allied troops. Tartar families, numbering 10,000 persons, applied to the Allies to be removed to the Turkish territory, and they were accordingly transported by the Turkish Government to Turkish territory, and were settled in the northern part of Bulgaria. The Turkish Government had acted with great liberality towards these Tartars, had settled them upon lands, and had supplied them with the means of subsistence until they were enabled to support themselves by their own industry. He had not heard from our ambassador at Constantinople, any complaint on the part of the Tartars, that the engagements entered into with them had not been strictly fulfilled, and he had therefore reason to suppose that they were contented with their lot.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the Estimate for Hong Kong, and to ask for some explanation of the particulars of the Vote. He could not, of course, object to the salary of £4,000, which was received
  938
  by Sir John Bowring as chief superintendent of trade; nor would it be possible for a gentleman of his high station to transact the important duties of his office without a secretary and registrar at a salary of £700; neither would it be right to deprive the registrar, whose duty it was to register the licences of lorchas and vessels of that class, of the aid of a "first assistant and keeper of records." He (Mr. Whiteside) was, however, surprised to find that this first assistant and keeper of records required a second assistant, that he required a third assistant, and that he again was helped by a fourth assistant, each receiving considerable salaries out of the public funds. In asking now the hon. Secretary opposite for some information as to what those individuals were doing, he did not expect to receive a very satisfactory reply, but rather an official answer. He (Mr. Whiteside) was free to admit that he should be glad to be paid for doing nothing, and why should he object to others being treated in the same manner? Then there was a Chinese secretary receiving £1,000 a year, who, he dared say, was a most important and dignified official; but, as it was impossible for any man in that part of the world to do his duty without assistance, he had an assistant secretary at £600 a year, which, no doubt, was a moderate salary for the services he performed; and there was, besides, a corps of no less than thirteen supernumerary interpreters, who received £200 a year each. Considering, however, that our diplomatic relations with China were at an end, it might not be unreasonable to ask, what they wanted with thirteen supernumerary interpreters. This, however, was not all, for these interpreters were assisted by "four Chinese writers or linguists," who received among them £187 10 s. He supposed that these linguists were employed to teach the interpreters the language which they themselves, though interpreters, knew nothing about. The total expenditure for Hong Kong was £10,424, and he hoped the Committee would require some official explanation as to the application of this amount. If that explanation was not satisfactory, he would propose to reduce the Chinese writers or linguists from four to two, the thirteen supernumerary interpreters to six and a half, and to get rid of the third and fourth assistants, leaving the first and second assistants to amuse and assist the secretary and

  939
  registrar. The arrangements at Canton were on an equally liberal scale. Then the consul—Mr. Parkes, he believed, the gentleman with whom they had lately become historically acquainted for the good service he had done this country—received £1,800 a year. Of course, he required a vice-consul, who received £750 a year; and there was besides a vice-consul at Whampoa, who received the same amount. These gentlemen could not speak Chinese, and therefore they required the assistance of an interpreter, who was paid £700 a Year, and he had a first assistant, who again required a second assistant, and, as if they could not get on without further aid, they had three Chinese writers or linguists. The whole cost of the consulate at Canton was £4879 a year, and he hoped some explanation of the expenditure would be afforded to the Committee.
  MR. WILSONsaid, he would first observe that the word "assistant" was in the East synonymous with the term "clerk." In most merchants' offices in London there were first clerks, second clerks, third clerks, and so on; and the consular officers mentioned in the Estimate, although called "assistants" were really clerks. The hon. and learned Gentleman, in referring to the "first assistant and keeper of records," seemed to assume that the other assistants aided in keeping the records. The fact was, however, that the first clerk alone kept the records, and the other assistants or clerks had nothing whatever to do with them, but were engaged in the general business of the consulate. With regard to the interpreters, about four years ago Lord Clarendon considered it most important, that Englishmen who held Important offices in the principal ports of China should be thoroughly acquainted with the Chinese language. The consequence was, that a number of young Englishmen were sent out at the low salaries of £200 a year, to learn the language, with a view of qualifying themselves for appointments, and the large number of supernumerary interpreters was thus accounted for. The Committee were aware that our trade with China had recently increased most rapidly, and he hoped they would not think that the sum included in this Estimate was a large amount to spend, not upon one port alone, but upon five or six ports. The amounts were:—for Hong Kong, £10,424; for Canton, £4879; for Amoy, £3,320; for Foochowfoo, £2,820;
  940
  for Ningpo, £1,650; and for Shanghai, £4,082.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, that he knew the hon. Secretary would be in a difficulty in giving the required information. He had listened very attentively to his brief explanation, but he was just as wise as he was before. The hon. Gentleman had complained of the manner in which he had read this Estimate. He had read it as he found it. Seeing in it "first assistant keeper of the records" and then "second assistant," he concluded that he was a second assistant in keeping the records. The hon. Gentleman now said that the latter was a clerk, and when asked what he and the third and fourth assistants did he answered in a very satisfactory manner, "the general business of the office." What was the general business of the department? There was a superintendent capable of doing the business, and very effectually he had done it. The thirteen supernumerary interpreters he supposed were men intimate with the Chinese language, and able to explain now to Sir J. Bowring what it was the Chinese at Canton meant to say to him, of which he had himself not the least idea. Now, however, the Secretary of the Treasury had informed the Committee, with his usual lucidity, that they were not interpreters, but young men who were learning the language, and that at some time, perhaps when Canton had been blown to atoms, they would be able to speak to the Emperor if they should ever arrive at His Majesty's presence. If the Estimate had stated that this was a sum of money for instructing young Englishmen to speak Chinese it would have been intelligible, but as the matter stood this was one of the most extraordinary explanations that he had ever heard. He thought that his original proposition to reduce the number of these young men from thirteen to six and a half was a good one. The hon. Gentleman had said nothing about the four Chinese writers or linguists. He said that our trade with China was very lucrative, but he might reflect that that trade would very soon be reduced to nothing, and therefore that argument would no longer avail. The best man of business on the Treasury Bench having given an explanation of this matter which left the Committee as much in the dark as it was before, he should move to reduce the Vote by a sum of £2,533—a reduction which

  941
  he proposed to effect by doing away with one-half of the supernumerary interpreters, and abolishing the offices of the assistant Chinese secretary, the third and fourth assistants and two of the Chinese linguists. After this reduction the amount of the Vote would be £125,089—a very ample margin for doing nothing in Canton, and therefore he thought that the reduction which he now proposed was a very safe and proper one.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £122,556, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Expense of the Consular Establishments Abroad, to the 31st day of March 1858."
  MR. WISEtrusted that the House would not agree to this Amendment. He had recently conversed with a gentleman who had resided in China upon the subject of the Chinese Department, and he was assured by him that the allowances proposed to be made by this Vote were most reasonable and proper ones.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: The hon. and learned Gentleman opposite does not, I think, present himself to the House as a guide in this matter under very clear colours. He professes himself to be entirely in the dark, and to know nothing of the matter upon which he proposes that we should come to a vote. I fully believe that statement of the hon. and learned Gentleman, because the manner in which he has treated the subject fully bears out the description which he has given of himself. I think that in general when hon. Gentlemen undertake to discuss Estimates it would be convenient to the House and advantageous to themselves that they should make themselves a little acquainted with the matter with which they are dealing. The hon. and learned Gentleman has been very pleasant upon the notion that nothing is done by any of these officers at Hong Kong, that the whole of our trade with China is confined to the port of Canton, and that, as the communication with that port is cut off, there is no longer any trade, there is no business to be done, and all these gentlemen are sitting with their hands before them and doing nothing but receive their salaries. That is a very pretty flourish, of imagination. There is no man who is more capable than is the hon. Member of painting a picture which has no foundation in reality, and amusing the House with little flourishes of genius, eloquence, and the inventive faculty, and if we were assembled simply for amuse-
  942
  ment, and to witness exercitations of intellect, I am sure that we should at all times be happy to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman at even greater length than that at which he sometimes favours us with his views upon public affairs. On the present occasion, however, he has not, in making a great many observations which are not founded in fact, paid sufficient regard to the lateness of the hour (twenty minutes after Twelve o'clock). He might have known that the duties of Sir John Bowring, the Superintendent of Trade, and of the clerks and officers under him are not confined to Canton, but that he receives reports from and communicates with all the other ports. The correspondence is of considerable extent, and involves a great deal of labour. The hon. And learned Gentleman is, I dare say, a very good linguist, but I doubt whether he has among his various attainments acquired any knowledge, even a rudimental one, of the Chinese language; although perhaps some of the things which he says here are as unintelligible to the House as if they were spoken in Chinese. If he were acquainted with even the rudiments of that language he would know that it is very difficult to acquire, and that even the life of a professional gentleman would not be long enough to enable him to master it sufficiently for even the most ordinary purposes of communication. Unless the tongue can express sounds which are intelligible to the hearers—the hon. and learned Gentleman is perhaps not always aware of that difficulty—it is impossible to make oneself intelligible—perhaps I am not making myself intelligible. But unless that be done communications are useless. For the purposes of trade it is very necessary that those who communicate together should fully understand each other. For that purpose it is essential that our staff should understand the Chinese language, and, as the attainment of a knowledge of that language is a work of great difficulty, the hon. and learned Gentleman must not be surprised if a large number of young men are sent out to learn it, and if it is a long time before they become sufficiently masters of it to be useful in communication. It is not desirable to rely upon natives, because you cannot place so much confidence in them as you can in British interpreters. My noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office has sent out these young men to gain a knowledge of the Chinese language, and I venture to say that no

  943
  money is better employed than that which is spent upon their education. The hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House has stated from his own knowledge that those who are conversant with these matters are of opinion that this establishment is by no means more extensive than the public service requires. The climate is one which very severely affects British constitutions. While I was at the Foreign-office many very valuable men either came home on account of ill-health or fell victims on the spot to the severity of the climate. Therefore I can assure the House that whatever the hon. and learned Gentleman may think of the extent of this establishment it is by no means greater than is required to meet the wants of the public service—wants which come out of an increasing trade of the utmost value to this country, and which cannot be extended unless there are proper public servants on the spot. I am quite sure that no one who knows anything of China will be of opinion that this is too large an establishment, or that the amount of the salaries and expenses at all exceeds what is required by the necessities of the case.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, the noble Lord at the head of the Government would admit that if it was necessary in verbal communications between the natives of two different countries that they should be able to make themselves mutually intelligible, it was quite as important that written or printed documents should be readily understood. In this case the Government had put before the Committee a document framed in such a manner that they themselves did not appear to understand it, nor could any one else, and that was exactly what his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Whiteside) had complained of. It was the ambiguity with which the estimate in reference to the Vote under consideration was drawn up that had given rise to the discussion which had taken place; and if the Government in framing it had called assistants, clerks, and the thirteen supernumerary interpreters, young gentlemen who were learning the Chinese language, the paper would have been understood by everybody. He (Mr. Henley) observed £4,000 or £5,000 put down for the Chinese mission. He took it the members of that mission could not be at Canton now, and he wished to know what was to be done with them in the event of the continuance of hostilities?
  MR. WILSONreminded the right hon.
  944
  Gentleman that this was an Estimate for next year, and that it was necessary for the Committee to provide the salaries for the next year. Mr. Parkes and his staff would, of course, be called into requisition to assist Lord Elgin on his arrival in China; and, besides, it was not desirable to drop public servants in that remote part of the world in an abrupt manner, and without providing for the payment of their annual salaries.
  MR. WHITESIDE: The noble Lord is of opinion that it is not quite becoming in a Member of Parliament to ask for an explanation of an unintelligible Vote under the consideration of the House. The noble Lord may possibly understand all the details of this Vote as perfectly as he affects to do. Of course the noble Lord understands everything, or, at all events, he talks as if he did, which with some is much the same thing, and a very valuable quality in a Prime Minister. But the Committee cannot have failed to notice that the noble Lord never touched a single item of the Estimates under consideration, and that is an adroit and often a most successful mode of dealing with a subject—to attack your adversary, ask what business he has to intermeddle with a question on which he desires an explanation, and then assume that everybody else understands the whole matter except himself. By "interpreters," then, on this occasion, it appears I am to understand thirteen young Englishmen, who are learning the Chinese tongue. The noble Lord is pleased with that explanation, and has been happy in turning on me the whole force of his wit. Sir, nobody speaks with half the effect of a Prime Minister. There are always plenty to laugh with him. But if the noble Lord, who has been accustomed during the greater part of his public life to speak from the Treasury bench, had, sat to-night on this side of the House, and had—as I have ventured to do—asked for an explanation of an unintelligible Vote, he would have turned the whole subject into the happiest ridicule, and made a far better speech than he has done in reply to my humble observations. It comes to this, that Lord Clarendon, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, has told the noble Lord that it is necessary to make all these appointments, and to send out the young friends of official men to fill these places. This fact remains, that whereas the House voted £33,000 for this purpose last year, they are now asked to vote

  945
  £39,000 this year. The noble Lord has given what he thinks an explanation of the matter, which may perhaps be satisfactory to some hon. Gentlemen who sit on the same side of the House with him; but I am sure the reason of the thing is with me, and I have only to say that I shall not press the Motion which I ventured to make to the Committee, and I shall be sincerely glad if the House do not have to divide on any more serious matter connected with the state of our relations with the Chinese nation.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he begged to move that the Chairman report progress, on the ground that the next Vote contained several objectionable items which could not be satisfactorily discussed at that hour of the night (a quarter to One o'clock).
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."
  MR. WILSONobserved, that he hoped they would proceed with the next Vote.
  MR. BLACKremarked, that he hoped the hon. Member for Lambeth would divide in favour of reporting progress. He had to complain that the Reformatory Institutions Bill was kept on the Orders of the Day, when it was not intended to proceed with it on the evenings for which it stood. He really thought such a course extremely discourteous on the part of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department.
  SIR GEORGE GREYexplained that if the hon. Gentleman had done what several other hon. Gentlemen had done, and asked him at what hour he intended to bring on the Reformatory Institutions Bill, he would have learned that it was not his intention to do so at anything like a late hour. At the same time he must add that the hon. Gentleman ought to remember that it was exceedingly difficult to avoid placing orders on the paper when there was a chance of bringing them on.
  MR. CROSSLEYsaid, this was just one of the many occasions which made him the more keenly regret the absence of the late Mr. Brotherton, who was accustomed to interfere to prevent the House continuing its discussions after Twelve o'clock at night. It was now nearly One o'clock, and he would therefore support the Motion that the Chairman report pro-
  946
  gress. He contended, also, that it would be for the public interest, as well as the individual welfare of every hon. Member of the House, that in future all business which was likely to give rise to discussion, and which was undisposed of after midnight, should stand over.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSrepeated that there were many objectionable items in the next Vote, which it would be unreasonable to ask the Committee to discuss at that time of night.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, it would take as much time to divide as to discuss the Vote, which was the only remaining one on the paper. He hoped, therefore, that the Amendment would be withdrawn.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  (16.) £22,500, Extraordinary Expenses, Ministers at Foreign Courts.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he wished to draw attention to the great expense of the embassy at Constantinople; they had already voted £1,500 for six paid attachés, but in this Vote was an item of £1,120 for interpreters, attachés, and clerks; he would also wish for some explanation of the item £1,605 for extra couriers.
  MR. WISEcalled attention to the increase of late years in these charges. In 1851 the Vote was £16,000; in 1853, £18,500; in 1855, £25,000, and now, £37,500. There was a charge of £180,000 a year on the Consolidated Fund for foreign missions, and this sum was for miscellaneous expenses.
  MR WILSONsaid, the printed details applied to the expenditure last year. The circumstance of the war being just concluded caused the expenses with respect to Turkey to be heavy. Extraordinary expenses were caused by the coronation at Moscow and the ordinary expenses of the Russian mission, recommenced in consequence of the war being terminated.
  MR. BLACKBURNasked for explanation of an item of £l,284 loss on exchanges. For the Two Sicilies it was £449. He imagined draughts on England would be at a premium abroad. He could find no credit for any gains on exchanges.
  MR. WILSONsaid, that this allowance was only made for loss of exchange on the disbursements made by the Ambassadors for the public service and not on their salaries. For many years it had been the practice not to give credit for gains on

  947
  exchange, but within the last eighteen months an arrangement had been made with the Foreign Office, by which loss would be charged against and gain paid to the Treasury.
  MR. WISEsaid, that there was a loss of 10 per cent on exchange with the Two Sicilies. If that were allowed to the wealthy Ambassador, why was not the same privilege granted to the less well-paid Consul?
  MR. WILSONsaid, that in consequence of the exceptional state of things, an allowance had been, made to the Consul in that particular instance.
  MR. HENLEYunderstood the loss on exchange applied only to extraordinary expenses. What was the nature of those expenses?
  MR. WILSONsaid, they appeared in the details of this Vote.
  MR. HENLEYwished to have some explanation of one item. The extraordinary expenses of the Two Sicilies were £1,060, and the loss on exchange was £449. As the extraordinary expenses included the loss on exchange, the £449 must be charged with respect to expenses of £600.
  MR. WILSONwas unable to explain that, but would inquire.
  Vote agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Resolutions to be reported on Monday next.
  Committee to sit again on Monday next.
  House adjourned at half-after One o'clock till Monday next.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Burial of the Dead within the City and Liberties of London; In closure Acts Amendment.
2a Sites for Workhouses: Charitable Uses.
3a Grand Juries (Ireland) Act (1836) Amendment; Turnpike Trusts Arrangements; Hanley Borough Incorporation.
ROYAL ASSENT—Consolidated Fund (£8,000,000); Insurance on Lives (Abatement of Income Tax) Continuance; Ministers' Money (Ireland); County Cess (Ireland); Court of Exchequer (Ireland).

RATE OF EXCHANGE—INDIA.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he saw by the newspapers that the Directors of the East India Company had altered the rate of exchange at which they were prepared to receive funds in this country for Bills drawn on the Indian Government. This alteration was merely a reduction of one farthing in the rupee, but it amounted to 2½d. in the pound; and its effect had immediately been to create a reduction in the price of bar silver and dollars, which of late had been exported to a considerable extent to India. It might be that the Court of Directors had adopted this step at the suggestion of Her Majesty's Government, in order to check the export of silver to that country, which had been increasing to an alarming extent; but whether the step had been taken on this ground or, by offering more favourable terms of remittance, to obtain a large accession of funds to the home treasury in this country, the effect upon the Govern-

853
ment of India would be precisely the same. The Indian Government remitted the funds for home expenditure chiefly by two modes. It advanced the funds of India on the security of goods hypothecated to the Company, and on bills payable to the Company here; and it paid in India bills drawn by the Company in tins country on account of money paid into the home treasury. Over the funds it remitted on the security of hypothecated goods the Government of India had power. It could limit the amount of those funds at its pleasure; but it had no power over the sums it paid in discharge of bills sent from this country. The revenue of India at the present moment was subject to three considerable dangers, the first of which was the non-collection of the revenue. There could be no doubt that the largest portion of the country above Agra was in such a state that the difficulty of collecting the revenue must be extremely great. In India no one paid if he could help it; and if it appeared probable that there would be a deficiency in the means of enforcing payment, the revenue would not be regularly paid. More than that, large as was the cash balance of the Government of India, it was by no means accumulated in two or three places, but was distributed and separated in the various treasuries in India. He regretted that there was reason to believe the mutineers of Delhi must have obtained possession of a sum of £400,000 or £500,000. He did not say that the whole of this sum belonged to the Government. The stock of the Delhi Bank must be included in it, but the largest portion of the sum must have belonged to the Government. These treasuries were dispersed all over the country, and when the Government was understood to have a sufficient force at its disposal for their protection they were perfectly safe; but when the contrary was the case, and when a state of things such as that which at present existed in India prevailed, there was no security that these treasuries might not be seized upon by parties who were anxious to enrich themselves at the expense of the Government. It was, further, the custom in India not to transmit money from place to place to any considerable extent by means of bills, but by escorts of military, consisting of regular troops, and occasionally by police. Under present circumstances the Government could not, however, altogether depend upon the regular troops, and therefore could not resort to them as a means of escort. It was there-
854
fore in the position of having to encounter great difficulties in the collection of the revenue—of being open to the inconvenience of having the money which was collected plundered—and of not being able to send it to the great centre from which payments were made, owing to the want of an escort on which reliance could be placed. Bearing in mind those triple difficulties, he should entreat the Government to consider most carefully the question whether it might not be expedient to leave it to the discretion of the Government in India whether they should remit or not the sums which might be necessary for expenditure in this country. There might be cases of emergency in which it would be absolutely essential for the Government of India to retain those funds in its own hands to provide for its own security. The Government in this country—the Court of Directors—had other means of supply, as, for instance, by the issue of India bonds or by the assistance of Her Majesty's Government, who, he concluded, would be ready to lend their aid in case of any emergency which might arise. His own immediate predecessor, as he understood, when the catastrophe which took place at Cabool occurred, had called upon the Court of Directors not to require him to make remittances to this country for a period of two years. The subject was one of no ordinary importance, and he wished, therefore, earnestly to call the attention of the Government to the question whether, by means of any extraordinary demand for money to be remitted to this country, the Government of India might not be precluded from taking those steps which, under existing circumstances, they might deem to be absolutely necessary for their own safety.
EARL GRANVILLEassured the noble Earl that the reduction in the rate of exchange was altogether attributable to the ordinary operations of commerce. There was no fear of any undue drain upon the Indian Treasury, as the amount of bullion in the hands of the Governor General was at present £10,000,000, while he had opened a loan of £3,000,000 to meet any contingency which might arise. He, however, quite admitted the importance of the subject, and the noble Earl might rest satisfied that the Government would take the necessary precautions to prevent the drain of money from India to any extensive extent, particularly under existing circumstances.

THE PEERAGE OF IRELAND—PROOF OF RIGHT TO VOTE.—RESOLUTIONS.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR rose, pursuant to notice, to move a Resolution with respect to the petitions of peers claiming a right to vote at the election of representative peers for Ireland, and said that in those cases in which the heir to a peerage in this country applied for a writ to enable him to take his seat in their Lordships' House, the course taken was simply to apply—nominally to the Crown, but, practically speaking, to the Lord Chancellor, who merely required that evidence of the marriage of the parents of the applicant should be produced, the expense of the whole proceeding amounting to from £5 to £10 only. When, however, a person succeeded to an Irish peerage, and claimed, not a seat in that House, but merely to have a record made of his right to vote at the election of representative Peers for Ireland, he had to pay, instead of £5 or £10, a sum amounting to between £100 and £150. That was a state of things which, in his opinion, called for a remedy, and the Select Committee which had last year sat to consider the subject had recommended that a measure should be introduced to Parliament with the view of removing the hardship to which he referred. He, however, having directed his attention to the matter, had come to the conclusion that it was not necessary to resort to legislation in order to accomplish that object. The matter was entirely within their Lordships' power. By the Act of Union all questions affecting the right to vote at elections of Irish Peers were to be decided by the House of Lords, and Orders of the House were drawn up at the time to govern the proceedings. A petition was presented; that petition was referred to a Committee of Privileges, and on that Committee it was usual for them to hear the party and his evidence by counsel at the bar. The consequence of that was, that very great expense was unnecessarily incurred. In ordinary cases there would be no more difficulty in determining who was the heir in the case of a claim to vote for a representative Peer than there would be in determining the heir of an English Peer who had the hereditary right to a seat it that House, and he thought that it would be desirable to assimilate the procedure in the two cases. The noble and learned Lord concluded by moving the following Resolution:—
856
"That all Petitions claiming a Right to Vote at the Election of Representative Peers for Ireland, by virtue of Peerages under which a Right to vote has been admitted by the House of Lords of the United Kingdom, be referred to The Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper of the Great Seal to consider and report thereupon; and The Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper is upon such Reference to consider the Matter of the said Petition, and to make his Report thereupon to the House.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREcomplained of the burdens imposed upon the Irish Peers, and supported the Resolution.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, he thought that Legislative authority was necessary. The Act of Union directed that the claim should be decided by a Committee of Privileges, and did not contemplate the delegation of such a power to an individual, not even to the Lord Chancellor; and, by adopting this Resolution great difficulty would arise, and a most dangerous precedent be set. The matter ought to be referred to a Committee of Privileges, which, in fact, was the whole House, with this difference, that while three Members formed a House, seven Members were necessary to form a Committee of Privileges.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that he did not propose that the House should be bound by the Report of the Lord Chancellor; the House could come to such conclusion as it might think fit.
On Question, Resolved in the affirmative; and the said Resolution ordered to be added to the Roll of Standing Orders.

MURDER OF MR. PRICE AT MELBOURNE.

  ADDRESS FOR CORRESPONDENCE.
  EARL TALBOT EARL TALBOT rose to move for correspondence relative to the murder of the late Mr. John Price, of Melbourne, Inspector of Convicts. He wished to call attention to this disgraceful and diabolical murder of a near relative of his. It was not necessary for him to go into the harrowing details of this barbarous transaction, but it would suffice to say that Mr. Price was in the execution of his duty among the convicts when they rose and literally stoned him to death, and made an attempt to do the same to the other officers present. It was, no doubt, the result of a plan and combination, and there was every reason to suppose that the plan was devised in consequence of a false and morbid sympathy out of doors for the persons who had murdered Mr. Melville, and who were acquitted on a point of law. He had a report of the inquest on Mr.

  857
  Price, which showed that there was a morbid sympathy for criminals in the colony, which required to be inquired into, and if possible put a stop to. The jury returned a verdict of wilful murder against fifteen of the prisoners, and they added, "that, in their opinion, one cause of the occurrence was the misplaced sympathy of the public for the persons in the case alluded to, which by some means had become known to the convicts, and had caused a spirit of insubordination to arise among them since the trial of the murderers of William Melville, in November last." Now, he (Earl Talbot) would venture to think that this was a subject which ought to be investigated by the Executive Government. Those convicts were sent out under sentence for heinous crimes, and it was the duty of the Executive Government to see that they were properly guarded, and kept from contact with the public out of doors, and free from those influences which had led to this catastrophy. Mr. Price's character was unimpeachable, and during the time he was an Inspector of Convicts in Norfolk Island he did his duty with equal kindness and firmness, and when the convicts were removed from that place the same duties were imposed upon him at Melbourne as he formerly discharged at Norfolk Island. He would read an extract from a Melbourne paper, which would give the House some notion of the feeling on the subject in the colony. The noble Earl read an extract, to the effect "that an attempt had been made by a party of long-sentence convicts to escape, in resisting which Mr. Price fell; insubordination was now the rule in the hulks; the convicts defied their custodians, and had got among them a copy of a report of a meeting of the citizens' committee, a self constituted body, at which Mr. Price was held up as a cruel, inhuman monster, and it had become the prison talk that the ruffians who murdered Mr. Melville had been acquitted; and these things having found their way into the hulks had produced such effects that the convicts were in a state of insubordination, under the belief that they had with them the sympathy of the public outside." At the inquest, Captain Blanchard, in his evidence, said, "that Mr. Price's manner was kind and almost fatherly; that since Mr. Melville's case his difficulties had increased; he had lost his control over the men, and yet he had to go among them; the sympathy of the press and the public had
  858
  had a great effect on the men, and when Mr. Price refused them a request, it was always done kindly." The officers were unarmed, and the reason given for this was, that as there were only twelve or thirteen men to control 150 or 160 of these desperate ruffians, they were afraid that if they carried arms the convicts would seize them and turn them against themselves. It seemed that newspapers were allowed to get among the convicts. He thought he had said enough to prove that this was a case worthy of their attention, and he hoped that the Government would, not only for the sake of the Imperial Government, but for the sake of his lamented departed relative, take some steps to control those dastardly ruffians. He hoped they would lay on the table any correspondence relating to the matter which was in their possession, and give an assurance that the matter should be inquired into, and justice done to the memory of his lamented friend. He had heard that the Colonial Legislature had made a provision for Mr. Price's widow and orphans; and he had an additional claim on the sympathy of this country, as he had married a near relative of Sir John Franklin.
  Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Correspondence relative to the Murder of the late Mr. John Price, of Melbourne, Inspector of Convicts.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the noble Earl had justly characterized this case as a most diabolical outrage, and Her Majesty's Government would make every inquiry into the subject. He would be ready to lay the correspondence on the table.
  Motion agreed to.

TRANSFER OF REAL PROPERTY.

  MR. FAWCETTE'S PETITION.
  LORD BROUGHAM LORD BROUGHAM rose to call the attention of the House to Mr. Fawcette's petition, presented on the 12th of June, and to beg the attention of their Lordships to the great difficulty and ruinous expense attendant on the practice of the law relating to the transfer of real property. Ten days ago he presented that petition from his learned and able friend, who had been many years a conveyancer of great eminence, was now a magistrate of the county of Cumberland, and who, with the late Mr. Aglionby, had prepared the Sum-

  859
  mary Jurisdiction Bill, which had effected so great an improvement in our criminal law. Their Lordships might recollect that he (Lord Brougham), in presenting the Carlisle petition, declined to bring in the Bill, conceiving it should originate in the Commons. Mr. Fawcette, in his present petition, addressed that House on the subject of the great grievance which landed proprietors and persons who wished to become purchasers of land suffered, owing to the state of the law and practice relating to the conveyance and transfer of real property. Mr. Fawcette stated, in support of a plan he proposed for a change in the law of real property, and particularly of registration of titles, his own experience as steward of a manor. He said that he had been for thirty years steward of one of the largest manors in England, containing some 400 or 500 tenements; during his stewardship nearly every tenement had been transferred by sale, or exchange, or death; and in every case the transfer was effected by means of a deed which contained on an average only 190 words; that there was no description of the parcels, except the number of the tenement in the manor book, and where it was situated; and never during the thirty years he was steward of that manor had any question of boundary, or identity of the parcels arisen; while the expense of the transfer amounted to—what would their Lordships think, who were constrained to pay for the transfer of one acre or a thousand acres £700 or 800? Why, to 7s. He did not mean to say that the expense of inquiry into title would ever be so small in the whole system of transfer of land; but he did say that this proved, at the very least, that a great and salutary change might be made in the law with respect to the conveyance of real property. The Master of the Rolls in Ireland had said, in his evidence before the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of the law of real property, that our system of conveyancing, and, indeed, our whole law relative to the transfer of real property, was one which might have been devised expressly for the purpose of rendering land as little an article of commerce and as little vendible and purchaseable as possible. The Legislature, the Courts, and the lawyers had created the system. [A Noble LORD: And the Attorneys.] His noble Friend said, that he ought not to forget the attorneys; he had included them among the lawyers. After the subject
  860
  had been mooted in the other House, Bills were sent down from their Lordships' in 1852 and 1853, to that House, and were referred to a Select Committee. The result was a recommendation of the appointment of a Commission of learned lawyers, with some laymen, to inquire into the whole question connected with the conveyance of land. A Commission was accordingly appointed, and made a report, containing most valuable information and a number of most useful suggestions. Nothing could be worse than the present state of the law on this subject. Land, instead of being as easily transferable as bank-stock, was, owing to the principle and practice of our law, the most difficult article of transfer. In fact, it was in some cases actually impossible to transfer it. He, therefore, heartily rejoiced to hear that the Commission had recommended the introduction of two most important measures with respect to this subject, and he hoped his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack would comfort the House by letting them know that these measures were not only in the course of preparation, but were in a forward state. It was most judicious of the Commissioners to recommend that along with a measure for the registration of titles, there should also be a measure for the improvement of the law respecting the conveyance of laud. Generally speaking, these important measures would meet with no great opposition, There might be some difficulty with respect to the registration of titles, from the want of the proper charts and maps. The Select Committee of their Lordships to whom the subject of registration was referred some years ago, had found that a great difficulty. But the Tithe Commissioners possessed a great body of maps and charts, as did the municipal corporations; so that he would fain hope there might be found a sufficient body of maps and charts to render legislation possible. He begged to direct their Lordships' attention to the working of the Encumbered Estates Court in Ireland, which had done so much good in that country—a point on which he had been mistaken when he at first supposed that it would not lead to beneficial results. In the period of five years ending in 1854, no fewer than 2,400 cases were tried and disposed of by that court. Of these 1,448 terminated in sale, and the value of the property sold amounted to £14,133,000. Great advantages were derived in Ireland from that court. In the first place, there was the excellent and indefeasible Parlia-

  861
  mentary title to land which it afforded; then there was the cost of proceeding which was exceedingly light; but if it had been much larger, it would have been as nothing compared with the incalculable advantages obtained under the Act. So much were these advantages appreciated, that in many instances frauds were committed, in order to bring property under the operation of the Act. Perhaps they might be called pious frauds, though on that point he was not called to give an opinion; at the same time he might say, that as he did not believe there was such a thing as a white lie, so neither did he believe there could be a pious fraud. But, at any rate, frauds were committed. People trumped up debts—signed bills, for example, when there were no transactions, and made it appear that there were incumbrances on property, so as to enable them to come within the scope and the advantages of the Incumbered Estates Court. Now, why should inestimable benefits like these be confined to incumbered estates? Why should not the owners of unincumbered estates have similar benefits? The Commissioners on the law of real property had expressed an opinion in favour of the extension of the principle of the system of the Incumbered Estates Court, so that there might be some such court for the transfer of all property; and it was suggested that it ought to be done by an improvement in the procedure of the Court of Chancery. He thought the Commissioners were well advised in saying that some such system should be adopted in this country, though on the manner of making it there might be differences of opinion. The course recommended by the Commissioners was, that two Bills should be prepared, one for the improvement of the law on the transfer of land, and one for the establishment of a system of registration of titles. Whether we should ever get the benefit of a Parliamentary title to estates he could not say; but he had great hopes that, to a certain extent, this would he effected, and that there would be some statutory guarantee of title to land. The proposal of the Commissioners was, that as by the Acts passed many years ago an indefeasible title is given to all land purchased and sold under the Ordnance Department, compensation being given if within a certain period a claim was put forward for the land, the same principle might be applied generally. In other countries great facilities are given for land
  862
  transfer, and he saw no reason why they should not go across the Channel to France for an example of legislation on this point. In that country the period of "limitation," as it was called, was ten years, whereas in our own country, it was thirty, and in many cases forty years. It was no doubt invidious to be asked to copy foreign institutions, but when those institutions were found to have produced great good, as the laws regulating the transfer of land in Ireland, in France, Belgium, and America had done, it would be most unwise not to avail ourselves of the examples which those countries afforded. He hoped the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack would be able to assure the House that Bills upon this subject were in a forward state, and would be speedily laid before Parliament. He would only add, that it was of the greatest importance that those who were intrusted, not only with the examination of titles to property, but who were to act as officers of courts where such titles might come in question, should possess a complete and accurate knowledge of their profession, and therefore he trusted that the Inns of Court would see the necessity of requiring all persons to undergo a compulsory examination before being called to the bar.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he would admit that the subject introduced by the noble and learned Lord was both difficult and important. One of his first acts after he received the Great Seal at the beginning of 1853 was to ask their Lordships' sanction to a measure for facilitating the transfer of real property by establishing an effectual system of registration. That Bill, as his noble and learned Friend had said, was passed by their Lordships and sent down to the House of Commons; but in consequence of objections raised against it there it had not become law. The subject was referred by the House of Commons to a Committee, and they recommended that a Royal Commission should issue to consider the existing state of the Law, and to report their opinion as to what alteration was necessary. Towards the end of the same year that Commission was accordingly appointed, and the difficulty, as well as the importance of the subject might be inferred from the fact that though the Commissioners were not idle, they were occupied the whole of the years 1854, 1855, and 1856, and part of 1857, before they were able to make any Report satisfactory to themselves. Pending that Commission, and

  863
  until he knew what they might recommend, he did not think it would have been proper for him to originate any measure. Nevertheless, in consequence of the length of time that elapsed before that Report was prepared, at the close of last year, he had prepared a measure which he thought could not possibly be at variance with the recommendations which the Commissioners might make, while, of itself, he believed the measure would be attended with great public benefit. That Bill he should soon be in a position to lay on their Lordships' table, and he would, with their permission, briefly explain its outline. One of the greatest sources of complication in reference to the transfer of real property was the mode in which mortgages, judgments, and other charges were dealt with. He proposed that when mortgages and judgments were given as securities charged upon real estate, the present complicated mode of procedure should cease; that any party being possessed of real property might charge upon it £5,000, £10,000, or any other sum; and instead of the instrument by which the charge was imposed, containing all the complicated provisions relating to power of sale, power of appointing receivers, and other matters, he proposed to enact that the mere charging of the land should carry with it as incidents all those provisions which were usually inserted in mortgages, and charges of a similar nature. He proposed, also, that there should be a register in the Court of Common Pleas of all such mortgages and charges, which would show at once whether the property was incumbered or not, and any one who proposed to purchase or lend money on land might ascertain exactly what charges were upon it. Considering the various uses to which real property was applied—as a future provision for families, marriage settlements, and other purposes—it was in vain to expect that they could ever make the transfer of such property as easy as the transfer of Bank stock; but at the same time there could be no question that the law in this respect might be materially improved. He pledged himself that during the recess the subject should receive full attention from the Government, and if, by the plan recommended by the Commission or by any other means, he could see his way to a real improvement, he should be prepared to introduce some measure for the purpose of carrying it out.
  LORD CAMPBELLexpressed his earn-
  864
  est hope that the law respecting the transfer of real property might be improved, and that it admitted of improvement there could be no doubt. He had hoped for some years that he should go down to posterity as the author of a general measure for the registration of real property; but that hope, like many others, was destined to disappointment. He was glad, however, to find that the cause had not been abandoned, and he should be most willing to lend his aid in carrying out such an improvement as that which had been suggested by his noble and learned Friend. Another improvement he had taken much interest in was the compulsory examination of students for the bar, and that also he hoped yet to see carried out.
  EARL FITZWILLIAMsuggested that in any measure that might be enacted for establishing a new and more simple form of conveyance, not only should the new form be made legal, but the old form declared to be illegal. The certainty that the old form would not be recognized in law, would induce people generally to adopt the new form. He trusted also that no system of registration would be established that would afford facilities for gratifying mere curiosity.

SALE OF OBSCENE BOOKS, &c., PREVENTION BILL.

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  LORD CAMPBELL,in moving that the House go into Committee upon the Bill, said, he was sorry he could not meet the convenience of some of their Lordships by postponing the Committee on this Bill, but he felt he would be guilty of a dereliction of duty if he were to do so; for, unless he pushed forward the Bill that evening, he would be unable to carry a measure that Session which he believed to be urgently demanded. On the occasion of his moving the second reading of the Bill, he was so much surprised by some of the criticisms that he had to encounter that he had made up his mind to abandon it altogether; but since then he had received such strong solicitations to proceed from various Members of that House, from clergymen of all denominations, from many medical men, from fathers of families, and from young men who themselves had been inveigled into those receptacles of abomination against which his Bill was directed, and

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  had suffered most lamentably from that catastrophe, that he thought it his duty to persevere; and he had the hope that from the alterations in the Bill which he would shortly state to their Lordships, it would not meet with further opposition. He was sure that the Bill was opposed in the first instance only from a misapprehension of its object. He had no desire whatever to interfere by legislation with books, or pictures, or prints, such as were described to their Lordships the other evening as being endangered by this measure. The keeping, or the reading, or the delighting in such things must be left to taste, and was not a subject for legal interference; but when there were people who designedly and industriously manufactured books and prints with the intention of corrupting the public morals, and when they succeeded in their infamous purpose, he thought it was necessary for the Legislature to interpose and to save the public from the contamination to which they would otherwise be exposed. He now knew more certainly than he did before, that there were receptacles for the sale and exhibition of these abominable books and prints, which had the most lamentable effect, and which the law as it stood at present was altogether insufficient to put down. An indictment might be preferred, and a conviction obtained, but after the conviction the sale from the very same shop, by reason of the advertisement which the indictment published to the world, was more rapid and more fatal than before; and the only chance of putting an end to these abominations was to give a right—with all proper limitations, so that there should be no danger of abuse—to search the deposits of objectionable books and prints, to seize them, and to burn or otherwise destroy them. He knew that such receptacles did exist, and he was convinced that they could be readily reached if the proposed power were given, and that his measure would work easily and be most effectual. He did not wish to create any new offence, but to leave the common law—by which it was a misdemeanour to publish such abominable books or prints—as it stood—the object being to give facilities for seizing obscene publications and destroying them. He had already explained to their Lordships the stringent powers which existed with respect to gambling houses; and Customs' officers, under the powers they possessed, had repeatedly seized large importations of indecent books and prints; but in Holy well-street the keepers
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  of these abominable publications set decency and law at defiance. If there were the same powers of searching for these books as for "uncustomed goods," or as in gambling houses for dice and cards, the public might be relieved from these contaminations. Having been very ably assisted, he had introduced some modifications into the Bill, so as to prevent its being obnoxious to any objection. The operative part consisted of two clauses: one was to empower justices of the peace, upon an affidavit being made that there was reason to suspect that these publications were kept in a house for sale and exhibition, to grant a warrant for searching; the other clause empowered the Chief Commissioner of Police, where he had reasonable information that these books were kept, to grant a warrant of the same kind. He believed that the liberties of the subject would be in no danger if Sir Richard Mayne had the same power which was possessed by the head of the police in every capital in Europe. That power had, however, been objected to, and he had been obliged to abandon this provision, which he did on the principle that half a loaf was better than no bread. Into the other clause he had introduced modifications which he believed to be unnecessary, but which would be harmless. The Bill, as it originally stood, only required an affidavit that the person making it had reasonable ground to suspect that these books were kept for sale and exhibition. The Bill as now amended, required that the complainant should swear that he had reason to believe, and did believe, that these books or prints were kept in store for sale or exhibition. Another Amendment enacted that the complainant should set forth the facts on which he entertained that belief, and if the justice were satisfied on these facts that the books and prints were kept as alleged, he might issue his search-warrant, with this additional guard—that he must be satisfied they were such books and prints as that their publication would constitute a misdemeanour by the common law. There was also this further security, that the magistrate must not only be satisfied that the publication of these books and prints was a misdemeanour, but a misdemeanour which ought to be prosecuted by indictment. He had been asked what he proposed to do with these indecent publications, and he therefore proposed that after condemnation they should be burnt or

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  otherwise destroyed. He would not enter into details of the appalling extent to which the sale of these publications was carried, but would move that the House do now resolve itself into a Committee on the said Bill.
  Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly.
  LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he would ask their Lordships to agree to the clauses pro formâ, in order that the Amendments he had made might be printed.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsuggested that the Bill should make it an indictable offence against the party in whose possession these books and prints were discovered, if a jury found that they were kept for sale.
  LORD CAMPBELLsaid, it had been held by the Court of Queen's Bench that it was an indictable offence to procure these books and prints for circulation, just as it was an offence to procure false coin for circulation. He therefore held it unnecessary to introduce such a provision; but if his noble and learned Friend thought otherwise he had no objection to adopt the suggestion.
  Amendments made: the Report thereof to be received on Monday next.
  House adjourned at a Quarter past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.