Sitting of 12 February 1857

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBERS SWORN.—For Greenwich, Sir William John Codrington; for Newport, Robert William Kennard, esq.; for Southampton, Thomas Matthias Weguelin, esq.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1o Church Rates Abolition.
2o Royal Marine Forces; Commons Inclosure.

CHARITABLE TRUSTS—QUESTION.
MR. MOWBRAYsaid, he wished to inquire of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether it was the intention of the Government to bring in any Bill to amend the Act of 1853 for the better administration of Charitable Trusts? And also, whether they intended to reintroduce the Bills for giving legislative sanction to various schemes of the Charity Commissioners which the Government abandoned last Session?
MR. BAINES, in reply, said, that it was not intended to alter the Charitable Trusts Act during the present Session. With respect to the second question of the hon. and learned Member, a Bill was prepared which he hoped would be introduced before Easter.

COMMUNICATION BETWEEN LONDON AND DUBLIN—QUESTION.
MR. GROGANsaid, he would beg to ask the hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury in what position the question of Postal Communication between London and Dublin stood?
MR. WILSONsaid, he was not at all surprised that considerable anxiety should exist upon the subject of the hon. Member's question. A Committee which had been appointed by that House for the purpose of investigating the subject in 1853, had taken the evidence of a number of Gentlemen in whose judgment, accuracy, and discretion the House could not fail to place reliance, but when that evidence came to be tested by endeavours to act practically upon it, the Government found that the views expressed by those witnesses had been exaggerated, and that it would be most difficult to come to any arrangement based upon them. It was quite clear that no advantage could be gained in facilitating the communication between Dublin and London unless it could be so arranged that letters leaving London in the morning could be conveyed to Dublin in time to be transmitted to the Irish provinces that evening; and that letters leaving in the
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evening should be able to be so forwarded the following morning. The period of time in which the transit was to be made was very short, but the evidence which had been given before the Committee tended to show the feasibility of such a scheme of communication, and it had been the endeavour of the Government to carry it out; but he was sorry to say without success. They were at present, however, considering a variety of modifications of the original plan, and it was only just towards the railway and steam-packet companies to state that they had exhibited the utmost readiness to meet the wishes of the Government in the matter, who, so far as they were concerned, were prepared to pay liberally for the performance of the required service. Under these circumstances, he hoped to be able in the course of a very short time to inform the House that such a modified plan had been decided upon as would place the communication between England and Ireland upon a better footing.

WINDING-UP BANKRUPT COMPANIES

  QUESTION.
  MR. C. S. BUTLERbegged to ask the hon. and learned Attorney General whether he intended to introduce any measure to facilitate the Winding-up of Bankrupt Banking Companies, to render speedy assistance to creditors, and to prevent the serious expenses and loss to the creditors and shareholders which existed under the present condition of the law? He also wished to inquire, although it was only right that he should mention that he had not had an opportunity of giving the hon. and learned Gentleman notice of this part of his question, whether it would be the object of any measure he might introduce upon the subject to prevent the conflicting jurisdictions of the Courts of Chancery and Bankruptcy so as to render the law cheap, simple, and adapted for its purpose?
  The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that in order to answer the questions of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, it would be necessary to remind the House that by an Act which had been passed in the last Session of Parliament all incorporated companies, present and future, with the exception of banking and insurance companies, had been subjected to rules for the purpose of winding up in the event of their insolvency of bankruptcy, which, he believed, would be found quite effectual for that object, and which rules, if capable of

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  being acted upon in the case of the Royal British Bank, would have prevented the gross scandal to English jurisprudence exhibited by the proceedings in reference to that matter. The old Winding-up Act did not contain the useful provisions to be found in the Act of last Session to which he had referred—provisions which would have prevented the conflict of jurisdictions, and enabled payment of the debts of the Bank to be made without the grievous oppression of every shareholder being exposed to actions at the suit of every creditor. The House would recollect, that in the last Session a Bill containing excellent provisions was brought in for the purpose of facilitating arrangements between shareholders and creditors of Joint-stock Companies in case of bankruptcy. That House, however, after it had come down from the House of Lords, refused to pass the Bill. It was his intention to consider whether the provisions in the Act of last Session, together with the provisions of the Bill he had just alluded to, might not be brought into one Bill, for the purpose of being made available to bankrupt banking and insurance companies; and, if the Lord Chancellor, under whose consideration the subject was, had no better plan, and that plan should receive the sanction of the Government, to bring in a Bill for the purpose, in the course of the present Session.

  THE NELSON COLUMN—QUESTION.
  MR. WARRENsaid, he would beg to ask the right hon. Baronet the First Commissioner of Works whether any and what steps remained to be taken by Her Majesty's Government to complete the monument to Lord Nelson in Trafalgar Square, and if so when the completion might be expected?
  SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, there seemed to be a very general impression that the erection of the column in question had been originally undertaken by Government. The facts of the case, however, were that about the year 1840 some naval officers had been desirous of opening a subscription for the erection of a monument to Nelson, and had raised about £20,000 for that object. They seemed, however, to have undertaken the work without due regard to its ultimate cost; for he found that Sir George Cockburn, the chairman of their Committee, had, in 1844, addressed a letter to the Treasury, stating that a sum of £12,000 over and above the
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  amount already subscribed, would be required for the completion of the monument. That was in the early part of the year, and in the following July, Sir George Cockburn had written another letter stating that £14,800 would be the requisite sum, and between that time and the year 1850 that sum had been voted by the Legislature. The estimate had, however, been found to be incorrect, and the completion of the monument had been assigned to the Commissioners of Public Works. They had accordingly employed their architect, Mr. Rendel, in the work, and it appeared that since that time the sum of £15,464 had been expended upon it. From information which he had received within the last few days he believed that if the monument were to be completed in a manner corresponding with the original plan, a sum of £4,000 or £5,000 more would be required for the purpose. The bassi-relievi upon the pedestal had been executed under the superintendence of the Office of Works, and paid for, and all he had to say in direct answer to the question of the hon. and learned Gentleman was, that if Parliament would only vote the money, the entire work would be completed; but he must add that he did not think it would be expedient to ask the House—during the present year—to make any further advances.

  CONVICT SETTLEMENT—BRITISH GUIANA—QUESTION.
  MR. LIDDELLsaid, he begged to ask for information in reference to the Penal Settlement situated upon the Massarooni River in British Guiana,—first, when it was established; secondly, whether for Imperial or Colonial purposes; thirdly, whether it was still in use; if not, what causes had led to its abandonment?
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, the settlement was established in 1842 for purely colonial purposes, and, so far from being abandoned, was in active and useful operation. It was under consideration whether it should not be made available for the reception of convicts from other parts of the West Indies.

  SIR ROBERT PEEL'S LECTURE AT SALTBY.
  MR. STAFFORDsaid: Sir, I rise to ask the hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth whether the report of a speech of his (made on the 7th of January, at Saltby, near Birmingham), which appeared

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  in The Times newspaper, be correct, especially those passages which refer to the Grand Duke Constantine of Russia, M. de Morny, and the Prince de Ligne?
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, Sir, my hon. Friend has asked me a question, and I hope the House will allow me to say a few words in explanation. It is said that it has been "arranged"—and the word is a heavy one—to put a question to me whether a speech reported to have been delivered by me at Saltby is correctly reported in The Times. Now, I do not think, perhaps, that this is quite the tribunal in which I ought to be called to account for expressions used in another place, and totally unconnected with the business of this House. At the same time, I am quite ready to accept the challenge of the hon. Gentleman, and I am quite prepared to give him every facility for obtaining the most accurate information on this most important subject. The hon. Gentleman asks me whether I delivered the speech at Saltby which appeared in The Times. I beg to say that I did deliver that speech as the guest of the hon. Member for North Staffordshire. He invited me to attend a meeting on the occasion of the inauguration of the Saltby Literary and Scientific Institution, and I addressed that meeting. I admit that I am not in the habit of reading reports of speeches of mine after they are delivered. I generally rest satisfied with the favourable impression that I produce at the time. It is, therefore, rather difficult for me at this distance of time to pledge myself to the exact accuracy of every word that appears in that report. I believe I spoke for nearly two hours and a-half without notes, so that it is rather difficult for me to say whether that report is precisely correct. But this I am prepared to say, that such is the ability, the acknowledged ability, and impartiality with which the leading journal reports the proceedings of public meetings that I am quite prepared to accept the entire responsibility of every single sentence, except a particular phrase relating to a matter of merely personal interest, which I do not think I used, but which, if I had used, I should have been equally prepared to accept the entire responsibility of. I am sure that the House, as a great deal has been said about this speech, will give me ten minutes for a few remarks on it. I am very glad indeed to offer some explanation, as my phrases have been tortured a good deal from their true meaning, and a meaning
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  has been given to them that I never intended to convey. I did address the meeting at Saltby, and, as a great deal of comment has been made on my words, it will perhaps be right, as I occupy a public situation, to put them in their true and proper light. I am very sorry—I do regret that any inconvenience should have arisen from any expressions that may have fallen from me, and which have been misinterpreted on that occasion. It is very far from my wish, and I think I may say from my nature—and I am known to many Members of this House—to cause unnecessary pain to any one. But these sentences have been very greatly twisted—twisted improperly: and I would refer particularly to the allusions to the Count de Morny, the Grand Duke Constantine, and the Prince de Ligne. As regards the Count de Morny, I absolutely repudiate having said anything about him which night not have been said by any gentleman with reference to any friend or acquaintance of his own. I said that he was le plus grand speculateur de l' Europe. Now, I did not intend to imply anything detrimental to his honourable character by that phrase; and immediately on my arrival in town, when I heard that these expressions had been noticed, I wrote to Count de Morny to say that certainly envy and malice had done their best to twist these expressions of mine into something odious to him, but that I repudiated saying a single word against his character or the position he occupied. Now, I could not say more than that. As regards the Grand Duke Constantine, that is another matter. I certainly said that the appearance of the Grand Duke Constantine did not quite impress me with the feeling that I was looking at a "frank and open-hearted sailor." I said that; but those words were not mine; they had been used by the gallant Admiral sitting there (pointing to Sir Charles Napier), and in using them I did not mean to say one word against the Grand Duke Constantine, or any other member of the Royal family of that country. On the contrary, when I said that he did not give me the impression of being "a frank an open-hearted sailor," I meant that he gave me the impression of being a man of great powers of mind. What I intended to convey was, that he was not merely a simple sailor, but a man of greater grasp of mind. As regards the Prince de Ligne, I accept the responsibility of every phrase that I used. I certainly did say—

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  and I should be sorry to cause any unnecessary pain to any one—but I was talking in a familiar way, and I did use the expression that he was "as stiff and starched as the frill of Queen Elizabeth." I cannot, however, accept the responsibility of every word in the report. I see my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Adderley), who was chairman of the meeting, and I must appeal to him and to Lord Lyttelton, who was also present, whether a single word fell from my lips that might not have found an echo and expression in the mouth of the most straight-laced gentleman in this House. All I can say is that if, in the opinion of the hon. Gentlemen who may have considered this question—if in the attempt, the innocent attempt, I made to paint a few light and airy sketches of character—to, as Pope said, "hold the mirror up to nature" and
  "Catch the manners living as they rise"—
  if I have erred in the good opinion of those whose good opinion I honour and value, and whose judgment has weight, I beg to say, on this public occasion, as an earnest of the sincerity of my feelings, that, though I do not feel that I did err, still, if I did err in their opinion, I now offer the most ample expression of regret, and that is the most fitting amende honorable that I can offer.

  ALLEGED TREATY BETWEEN FRANCE AND AUSTRIA—EXPLANATION.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: —Sir, I wish to set myself right with the right hon. Gentleman opposite and the House with reference to an assertion which I made the other evening in regard to the military convention to which I alluded. I stated that I had been informed that that convention had not been signed—and I believed such to have been the case. I think, however, it due to the right hon. Gentleman to state that I have since learned that in point of fact it was signed. The convention, however, being more of a military than of a political nature, and having for its object the regulation of the mutual relations between the French and Austrian troops which might happen to be quartered in Italy, in the contingency of Austria declaring war against Russia—that being the foundation of the entire proceeding—and Austria never having, in point of fact, declared war, the convention, although signed, has been a dead letter, and has had no application or effect whatsoever.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid: Sir, although there is no question before the House, I hope I may be allowed to make a few observations—and they shall be of extreme brevity—in reference to what has just fallen from the noble Lord. Hon. Members will recollect that upon the first night of the Session I mentioned the existence of a secret treaty between France and Austria for a particular object. To that statement I received a direct contradiction from the noble Lord. ["No, no."] Yes, the noble Lord said it was "a romance." I do not wish to dwell on this topic, but as the assertion seems to be again met with a denial, I may just observe that the noble Lord was good enough to say that I was distinguished for my powers of invention, and, alluding to the circumstances of my having written some works of imagination in the course of my life, called this another romance. A week elapsed, during which the noble Lord did not appear in his place, and I seized the earliest opportunity, after his return among us, to vindicate myself. I made upon that occasion a statement to the House—which I hope from a sense of justice is still in its recollection—to the effect that I believed the assertion which I had made upon the first night of the Session to be correct—namely, that there had been a treaty entered into between Austria and France guaranteeing to the former the security of her Italian provinces. That was the statement which I submitted to the House on Tuesday last. I added that that treaty had been signed, and I gave the date of its signature; that it had been extensively acted upon; that troops had been withdrawn from Italy in consequence; and that at a subsequent period some alarm being felt by the Italian Governments, Austria had requested the permission of France to communicate to those Governments the existence of the guarantee in order to tranquillise their alarm. And yet this is the treaty which we are told was not acted upon, and whose very being was unknown to Her Majesty's Government. And what was the answer which I received from the noble Lord on Tuesday? The noble Lord, who had upon the first night of the Session pronounced my assertion "a romance," was, on Tuesday, obliged to own that there was a written document in existence, the object of which was to accomplish what I had previously stated; but the noble Lord added that I was mistaken in calling it a treaty, that it was simply a convention—a con-

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  vention, too, which had never been signed. Now comes the third act. We have it now from the noble Lord, not only that there is a written document in the shape of a convention between those two powers for this object, and that it is a secret document, but we have also an acknowledgment from the noble Lord that the only statement of his the other night which substantially saved him from refutation—namely, the statement that the convention was not signed, was incorrect, and that in point of fact it had been signed. Now, after these two admissions from the noble Lord, I am here again to re-state that which I stated on the first night of the Session. I say it was not a convention. I say it was a treaty. I say that it was not only signed, but that it was also extensively acted on. I say that every expression the noble Lord used describing that instrument so little applies to its real nature, as it has been represented to me, that I really believed at the conclusion of the discussion the other night that in consequence of this treaty there must have been concluded some military convention which had not been signed, and that the noble Lord had in that way been misled. I stated the other night, and I now state again, that the document I mentioned was a treaty, and a secret treaty, which was entered into between France and Austria, and the object of which was a guarantee from France to Austria of the security of her Italian dominions; that it was executed on the day I mentioned; that it was acted on—extensively acted on; and that to the best of my belief it conveys on its surface no limitation of its action, and that the description of it given the other night by the noble Lord is entirely incorrect.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: —I am aware that I have no right to trespass again on the indulgence of the House; but really, after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman and the manner in which he has attempted to cover an ignominious retreat, I hope I may be allowed to make a few additional observations. The right hon. Gentleman has mis-stated now what he said on a former occasion; I say he has entirely misrepresented his own statement, which must be still fresh in the recollection of the House. What was his statement? His statement was this—that there was a treaty between Austria and France for guaranteeing to Austria her Italian possessions. He said that that treaty was now in existence, and that it
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  had been recently acted on by Austria towards the King of Naples, in consequence of discussions between the Governments of France and England on the one hand, and the Government of Naples on the other, and that it had been concluded at the instigation of Her Majesty's Government.
  MR. DISRAELI: No; at the instance of Her Majesty's Government.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: The right hon. Gentleman said that the treaty had been concluded not only with the knowledge, but at the instigation of Her Majesty's Government.
  MR. DISRAELI: At the instance of Her Majesty's Government.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONcontinued: The right hon. Gentleman cannot escape on that difference of syllables. I heard the word and recollect it; I am sure he made use of the word "instigation."
  MR. DISRAELI: It is of no importance. What I really said was, "advice and instance."
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: No, no; the word was instigation, but if it suit the right hon. Gentleman better to say advice, be it so. What he meant at all events was, that the treaty originated in advice and counsel given by the English Government to the Governments of Austria and of France. Now, Sir, I denied the whole of that statement, and the whole of that statement I now deny again. To my knowledge, and to the best of my belief, no such treaty exists; no such treaty was ever concluded. I say most distinctly that the British Government had no knowledge of such a treaty, and could not, therefore, have instigated its adoption. I stated the other night that if the right hon. Gentleman had seen such a treaty, and if he should assert its existence on his own knowledge, I should of course bow to his declaration, and, although I knew nothing of it, I should take it for granted that such a treaty existed. I said that a convention of a totally different character had been negotiated—a convention regulating the mode of action of the French and Austrian troops, which might happen to be in Italy at the time, in the event of Austria declaring war against Russia, and fighting in front, in concert and in combination with the English and French armies, as she naturally wished that her rear should be secure from molestation while she was engaged in the van in co-operation with the Allies. I said, further, that that convention having been founded

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  on the assumed case of a declaration of war by Austria against Russia, and that declaration never having taken place, the convention became a dead-letter and never had, and never could have, any effect. That assertion I still maintain, and, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman, notwithstanding the vapouring manner in which he has been pleased to follow up his statement, has, to the best of my belief, been imposed upon. [Hear.] I beg pardon, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman uses hard words himself, and I must frankly express my opinion, whatever he may think of the language I may find it necessary to employ. I say, then, that the right hon. Gentleman, to the best of my belief, has been grossly imposed upon. This military convention never had any operation, because the condition on which it was founded was never realised. It was represented to him as a thing which it never was, and never was intended to be, namely, as a guarantee obtained by Austria from France for the security of her Italian dominions; and it is utterly impossible that that convention could have been made use of in the manner in which he described, because Austria could not have said to Naples, "I have a permanent guarantee from France for my Italian possessions." The only document that was signed between France and Austria, as far as we are aware, was a convention providing for a case which never arose. And further, this military convention was not signed by our "advice," but it was communicated to us as an arrangement already settled between France and Austria, and the only question we had to consider was, whether we thought, upon the whole, that France was bound in honour to make such an arrangement as would leave Austria the free use of her forces in Italy while she was co-operating with the Allies in the war against Russia. So far, therefore, was what I said from bearing out the right hon. Gentleman, that that which I said, and which I still believe to be perfectly true, shows that the right hon. Gentleman was grossly and entirely misinformed as to the facts of the case.

DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC JUSTICE.

  ADDRESS MOVED FOR.
  MR. NAPIER: —Sir, I rise to move that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to take into consideration, as an urgent measure of Administrative Reform, the formation of a separate
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  and responsible department for the affairs of Public Justice. I am sure that the House must be well aware of the great importance of the subject I have to bring under their consideration. It was one which had already attracted a large amount of attention both in Parliament and in the country, and the change which I now advocate has received the earnest support of all our most eminent legal reformers. I do not wish by this Resolution to commit the House or the Government to any special plan for the formation of a separate department for presiding over the business of Public Justice; my only object is to obtain their assent to the principle of the necessity and the expediency of adopting some measure for the attainment of that object. Such an arrangement would lead to a proper division of the labour connected with the administration of Justice, and to a more efficient performance of the duties of that great branch of our public administration. At present those duties are distributed among such a variety of officers that no one knows to whom he should apply for guidance and information upon any particular subject. It is no longer necessary that we should institute any inquiry into the matter, and the time had unquestionably come for action. In the month of March, 1853, the present Lord Chancellor said
  "that we had arrived at such a point that further speculation as to what might and what was convenient to be done was absurd; that these inquiries had ended, and always would end, in nothing."
  The noble Lord at the same time declared his purpose to do what had been done in New York,
  "where all the statutes of the Legislature are placed before the community in a compact and practicable form, and in language perfectly intelligible to the whole community."
  Three-fourths of our present statute law consisted of mere superfluity; and he need hardly remind the House of the great services which a new Department of Public Justice could render in classifying and consolidating that law, and taking care that future legislative measures should be framed in consistent and intelligible language. Let us turn for a moment to the light which the philosophic genius of Lord Bacon has shed upon the question. Lord Bacon said—
  "The leaving on the Statute-book Acts which are at variance with the spirit and temper of the

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  times in which we live, impairs the authority of the rest, and we ought not to have the living die in the arms of the dead."
  The Statute Law Commissioners, in their second Report, recommended the appointment of a single responsible head, with a well-organised staff of assistants, to carry out the system which they advocated; and the House itself has agreed to the following Resolution—
  "That in the opinion of this House, as a measure of administrative reform, provision should be made with a view to secure the skilful preparation and proper structure of Parliamentary Bills, and promote the progressive amendment of the laws of the United Kingdom."
  It is impossible for any attentive observer not to perceive how desirable it is that a change should take place in our whole system of law procedure, and even in the mode of appointing our Judges. In England the Crown appoints some of the Judges, and the Lord Chancellor appoints others; in Ireland the nomination of the Judges is, I believe, placed in the hands of the Prime Minister himself, and in Scotland they receive their appointments from the Secretary of State for the Home Department. It would manifestly be better that the selection in all those cases should be left to a responsible head, acting upon uniform and well-considered principles. I believe that the time has come when a vigorous remedy is required for the incoherencies, the delays, and the other defects of our legal and judicial system. It would be a serious misfortune if Parliament were at present to refuse to adopt those reforms in the system which would place it in harmony with the new wants and the progressive spirit of the age. My belief is, that if prudent but liberal amendments are not effected in that department of our public administration, it must before long be subjected, in obedience to the public demands, to violent and ill-considered alterations. The wisest policy which Parliament can adopt in the case, as in all others where reforms are necessary, would be to reform at once, to reform carefully, but to reform largely and generously. All the feudalism of our law is dying out; the narrow precision on which our lawyers formerly insisted is at present generally condemned; and some new system should be devised to meet that altered state of feeling and of circumstances. I find that the remedy for the existing evil most generally recommended by law reformers is the establishment of a central office, charg-
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  ed with the general supervision of our whole legal and judicial business, who would be able to watch the working of the existing system, communicate with the Judges as to defects and requisite reforms, and receive, and if thought proper, act upon the suggestions which might be received from various quarters. At present, if any one had any suggestion to make with respect to legal reform, there was no Member of the Government who had the power to receive and act upon such suggestions. They had lately found it necessary to have a separate Minister for Public Education, and had previously experienced the necessity for separate departments for trade, war, and public health. Let the experiment which had succeeded in these departments be tried with respect to justice. Lord Bacon had suggested that Commissioners should be appointed to keep their eyes on the working of the laws, and that suggestion had been sanctioned by Lord Langdale in a speech which he delivered in 1836; and again in the last speech which he addressed to the House of Lords when he used the fact of the establishment of the local jurisdiction of the County Courts as a still further argument in favour of taking steps by the establishment of a central authority—whether in a Minister or a Board—to bring the law into harmony with common sense. I stated, when I brought the subject forward in 1855, that I would again bring it forward in the next Session; I then redeemed my pledge, and in 1856 I once more called the attention of the House to it. Just before that occasion the writer of an article in the 23rd volume of the Law Review, quoting an able article in The Times, also drew public attention to it. I was likewise supported on that occasion by the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) the Member for London. Sir, the House then will not be surprised that, upheld by all these authorities, I should again bring the subject forward from a desire to improve the law and the legal profession. The Commission on the subject of legal education has called attention to that most important subject, on which the most enlightened principles have been laid down. Such principles should surely be honoured and recognised in Parliament. If we have legal education carried out on these principles—if we have statute law re-constructed on such principles—if we have also a Minister of Justice to carry out these principles, we shall

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  have a system of judicature which will do honour to our country, instead of one which exposes us to severe criticism, and is openly derided and decried. It is certainly a disgrace to such a country as this to have the profession of the law removed from what is enlightened and liberal; and the appointment of a Minister of Justice to give his special attention to the subject of law reforms, will at once elevate it into importance and secure it success. But what, Sir, are the objections against the measure? People say, "What, are you going to have a Minister of Justice in the French fashion?" Sir, I do not care about the name. I want the thing—a separate department for the affairs of justice; and we are unwise in supposing ourselves so entirely superior to our continental neighbours. I found, upon a recent occasion, upon a question of jurisprudence, on which our own text writers afforded not sufficient light,—I found full information on applying to foreign jurists, who at once solved the question by reference to legal principles recognised in their system of jurisprudence; and this gave me a lesson, and impressed me with the belief that it is very unwise to bolster ourselves up in the idea that we have nothing to learn from foreign nations. We ought rather to be ready to refer to any source of improvement, and be willing to learn in any quarter how to improve our legal system; and one way to do this will be to have a Minister of Justice, whose business it will be to devote his whole attention to the subject. It is said that it will be an expense. But, Sir, the people of this country never grudge the expense in order to attain a really beneficial object: and it is very gratifying to observe, in and out of the House, a growing desire for law reform. That great writer, Niebuhr, somewhere says, that two courses were open to England, either to endeavour to interfere and domineer over the Continent, or to busy herself with great moral, legal, and social reforms amongst her people. Let us take the latter course, by which this country will but fulfil the great mission assigned to her by Milton, of "teaching the nations how to live." We have no longer to lavish vast resources upon war; we have a peace budget promised, and I trust that we shall not grudge a moderate sum to carry out the great object of a good administration of justice. It is said it will interfere with the Lord Chancellor. But as to that—as
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  matters now stand we find that, for example, as to the Statute Law, some officer must be appointed to examine the statutes which are passed. The fact is that the Chancellor cannot do everything. As a witty Lord Chief Baron in Ireland once said, "Samson was a strong man, and Solomon a wise man, but both together could not pay their rent if they had not got it:" and the multiplicity of the Chancellor's avocations made it practically impossible that he should attend to all that concerned the administration of justice. Then, as to the law officers of the Crown, they also have enough to do with their ordinary duties, and my hon. and learned Friend (Sir F. Kelly) recently complained that he had found it impossible to get hold of the Attorney General for half an hour. Now, a Minister of Justice would be accessible to any one; would be always able to attend to drafts of Bills, &c., and would be on all occasions bound to make it his business to receive suggestions as to legal reforms and as to pending legislation. It is said by some that the measure would interfere with the Secretary for the Home Department. But it would not interfere with anything he can properly do. Neither he nor the Chancellor can pretend, even together, to make themselves responsible for all that regards the administration of justice. It is said we should interfere with the Irish Executive. Sir, I want to interfere with the Irish Executive. I remember the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham) alluding to the "trickery" of "old Dublin Castle." There is no part of the United Kingdom to which such a reform is more vital than to Ireland. We want laws framed on English principles, and a system of justice like that of England. We want, in the appointment of Judges and other parts of our judicial system, to see an end put to the "trickery of the Castle." Let all our laws be Imperial. Let our judicial system and our jurisprudence be Imperial. That is the very characteristic and proud distinction of a great empire. I have recently read with great interest the report of the Minister of Justice in France. Nothing can be more admirable. It gives the state of every court in the country. It reveals the condition of every single tribunal. It shows what Judges are industrious and energetic, and which of them dilly-dally with their business and delay their suitors. If we had such a Minister in this country we should not have an Incumbered Estates

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  Court in such a condition. Last year we were assured here that two Commissioners could do the business of that court and also of the Court of Chancery and now it turns out that there were then 500 abstracts of title in one office unopened, 700 petitions unexamined, and 200 schedules unsettled. The consequences to the suitors have been most injurious, their money is locked up, and they were paying, meanwhile, ruinous interest. If we had a Minister of Justice such a scandal could not occur, or, if it did, we should not have to root it out by the slow process of reluctant returns: but we could easily extract the facts by inquiries of the Minister in his place in Parliament. He would be directly responsible, and would take care that there was a due discharge of judicial business. As to Ireland, then, above all, let there be an end of Castle trickery; and let there for that end be one great Department of Justice, guided by the same principles and regulating an Imperial system of judicature. It is said again, this would interfere with the freedom of Parliament, but how the having a proper and responsisible Minister here to explain all matters relative to justice—how this should interfere with the freedom of Parliament, I am at a loss to understand. There may be difficulties in the way of what I propose, but, surely, none that are insuperable. It is an old adage, that where there is a will there is a way; and if the Government made up their minds to confer upon the country this great public benefit, they can easily do so. How long are we to go on in the present miserable state of confusion and inconsistency? Let the House look at the real merits of the question, and they will not surely hesitate to confer this great boon upon the country.
  MR. COLLIERseconded the Motion, and said he feared that the House was getting tired of the very name of law reform; so much was said during each Session about law reform, and so little done, at the end of it, that the House might begin to think that there was an understanding among the lawyers to treat the question as the subject of talk rather than of action. If, however, the House had become indifferent to law reform, the people were sincere in their desire for it; and there was a general impression throughout the country that the administration of our law was behind the civilisation of the age. The country looked with little favour on courts of law and courts of equity
  546
  dealing with the same subject matter on opposite principles: with still less did they see a third set of courts, the ecclesiastical, acting on a third set of principles and by a third mode of procedure. Indeed, no spectacle could be more humilating and disgraceful to our jurisprudence than to behold the machinery of the three sets of courts at work at the same time grinding, crushing, and tearing in pieces an unfortunate estate. They had seen with no edification the fight between the Courts of Chancery and Bankruptcy, over the dead body of the British Bank. If they looked to the highest Courts of Appeal, they had for certain matters the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which performed its functions in a satisfactory manner; and for other matters they had the House of Lords, which did not perform its functions in a satisfactory manner, which by the consent of all required alteration, but which it seemed impossible to reform. Turning from the tribunals to the law, they found the statute-book a rude undigested mass, defying all efforts to expurgate and consolidate it from the days of Lord Bacon down to those of Mr. Bellenden Ker. All that the country knew was that they had a heavy bill to pay, without being able precisely to ascertain for what. Then there was the state of the law as regarded the transfer of land, constituting a grievous burthen upon landed property. Our law of husband and wife was more discreditable than that of any other civilised country. By that law we prohibited divorce, while we granted a statutory indulgence to break the law to those who were rich enough to pay for it. Then there was the state of the law as to Church discipline, which was most unsatisfactory; then also the mercantile law of England and Scotland differed materially, and no attempt was made to harmonize them; and from the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, it appeared that there was the same complaint as to the laws of England and Ireland. Measures of law reform were from time to time passed, which although undoubtedly beneficial, were rather adapted to the exigences of the particular case than based on any comprehensive view of the law of England as a whole, and were commonly framed with little regard for the harmony of the different parts of the machinery for the administration of justice, or for the science of jurisprudence. The people were accordingly dissatisfied, and with reason, with the pre-

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  sent state of the law and the administration of justice in this country; and what had been done to remedy it? Recourse had been had to Commissions, but the inquiries of those Commissions were a vague and desultory mode of dealing with the question, and their reports generally proved abortive. Those Commissions were frequently composed of Members of different opinions, who disagreed, came to a dead lock, and then each man reported for himself. Every Session, however, there was promulgated a programme of law reform; the result of which was that the lawyers in Parliament had some field days, made long speeches, to which the House was not very willing to listen; the question was aired and ventilated, and then all the proposed measures laid on the shelf. He did not say whose fault this was. He did not say it was the fault of the Government. The noble Lord at the head of the Government no doubt wished law reform to be carried out, but it could not be expected that he would give as much attention to that subject as to measures on which the fate of his Government depended. The noble Lord knew that the right hon. Gentleman opposite did not expect to turn out the Government on the question of law reform, that right hon. Gentleman was no doubt profoundly indifferent whether or not there was a secret treaty between the noble Lord and the proctors guaranteeing to them their possessions in Doctors' Commons—which was a more likely thing than the other secret treaty of which they had heard so much. It was thought that in this Session, looking to the programme laid down by the Attorney General at Aylesbury, the question of law reform would have been really dealt with; but, contrasting the programme of the Attorney General with the speech of the Lord Chancellor last night, he must say that there was but little hope on that subject. The Ecclesiastical Courts seemed to have been dropped by the Attorney General and taken up by the Lord Chancellor; and, of all the abortive measures on that subject, that of the Lord Chancellor was the most abortive. As to the transfer of the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts to the Court of Chancery, to that he was sure the House of Commons could never consent. The Attorney General had never wished that to be done, and it was desirable to remove an impression which was abroad that the hon. and learned Gentlemen had any such desire. It was clear
  548
  that we had nothing to expect this year in the way of law reform. He did not blame the Government or the law officers of the Crown for this; the fault rested not with the men, but the system. The Lord Chancellor having no efficient staff to assist him, could not, even if relieved of all his judicial duties, be the Minister of Justice, which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Napier) proposed, nor be at the head of the department which it was sought to establish. It was equally impossible for the Attorney or Solicitor General to perform such functions. They could not be responsible for Cabinet measures, not being themselves in the Cabinet. The wonder was, not that the Attorney and Solicitor General had done so little, but that they had accomplished so much. Unfortunately the engagements of the Lord Chancellor and the other law officers were such that they had not time for the requisite communication with each other. They did not act with any unity or concentration, and, if he might be allowed to use the expression, he would say that in the shipwreck of law reform, the law officers of the Crown might be seen each clinging to his own plank, and drifting in different directions. Nobody being to blame in this matter, he I would now proceed to the consideration of the question how could the system be altered, and that led him to the consideration of the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman had abstained from using the term "Minister of Justice," but he proposed to frame a responsible department for the administration of justice. That was a proposition which he (Mr. Collier) had no hesitation in affirming, and he would endeavour to point out the functions which such a department would be expected to perform. To the office of that department there ought to be returned all the judicial statistics relating to the working of every tribunal throughout the country. It was a remarkable fact that no other country was so deficient in judicial statistics as England, and he trusted that if such a department should ever be established the collection of such statistics should form one of its duties. That office would be open to receive and record suggestions of improvement from the Judges and any other persons by whom suggestions might be offered. By that department might be conducted scientifically and methodically all those inquiries which had hitherto been delegated to a variety of Commissioners. The next great

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  and important function which such a department ought to undertake should be the progressive amendment of the law. Under that head he included the consolidation of the statute law. The system adopted by the Statute Law Commission was not the best and most expeditious mode of proceeding, and unless some alteration should be made, the House might look forward to a long series of consolidation bills stretching over a period of which no man now living could expect to see the end. It seemed to him that the more methodical mode of proceeding with the great work of the consolidation of the statutes would be to place it under the supervision of one officer, with a competent staff to assist him—that the work should be undertaken as a whole, and then submitted to Parliament for consideration. Instead of being brought forward in five hundred different Bills it would be much better that the great work should be confirmed by one Act of Parliament. Then, again, this Department of Public Justice ought to have the care of preparing and passing through Parliament such measures of law reform as the Government might determine upon, and for which the Government ought to be responsible. He should like to see questions of this kind dealt with by Government in a methodical manner. He should like to see them come down and make propositions for reforming the laws of the country, by which propositions they would determine to stand or fall. The department now proposed might perform the functions of correcting current legislation, which it had been suggested ought to be performed by a Board under the control of the two Houses of Parliament. He did not mean that any Department of Justice, or any Minister, should be allowed to dictate to any Member the course which he ought to pursue. He did not think it would be right to interfere with private legislation, but he believed that every hon. Member would be glad to have a responsible department to apply to for information. It was a matter for grave consideration whether the Minister of Justice, or the head of the department, might not be conveniently entrusted with the power of supervision over certain parts of the administration of justice—such as the County Court Judges and the Justices; and it would be most important to consider whether the functions exercised by the Home Secretary, amounting, in fact, to a decision on criminal appeal, might not be satisfactorily per-
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  formed by the head of the new department. He believed that these functions of the Home Office had never been better performed than at the present time; but the question was, whether it would not be more satisfactory to place in other hands the power of reversing the decision of a Judge and jury?—whether such a power ought not to be exercised by a high legal authority, and conducted by a more regular form of procedure? That seemed to him to be an outline of the functions which might be advantageously performed by the Department of Justice now proposed. The right hon. Gentleman's Motion did not specify whether the head of the department should be in the House of Lords or the House of Commons. Now, it would be perfectly consistent with the Resolution that the Lord Chancellor should be appointed Minister of Justice, and it would be for the Government to consider whether, with the assistance of a competent staff, he would not be able satisfactorily to perform the functions of the office. If the duties of the office should be too onerous for the Lord Chancellor, then it would be most desirable that the head of the department should be a Member of the House of Commons, and he thought, in many respects, that would be the most advantageous course. That question, however, was left entirely open for the consideration of the Government. It might be said that the Resolution was vague and that nothing ever came from abstract Resolutions. But it ought to be remembered that such Resolutions had frequently led to important results—such as the passing of the Limited Liability Act, and the measure carried out by the right hon. Member for Manchester. If this department were established it would accomplish what had been long earnestly desired by the greatest Law reformers of the age. He trusted the House would, by affirming the present Resolution, convince the country that it was in earnest on the subject, and that it was desirous of taking one of the most important steps of modern times towards rendering the administration of justice consonant to the wants of the country and advancing civilisation of the people.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that in his opinion the right hon. Gentleman opposite had done good service to the country by bringing forward the Motion now under consideration, and he thought the Resolution submitted to the House the other night by the noble Lord at the head

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  of the Government was a proof that the subject had not escaped the consideration of the Government. The rest of the Motion was the property of the right hon. Gentleman, who had called the attention of the House to the question in the year 1855. He did not complain that the Resolution was couched in general and what might be termed indefinite language, and it must be distinctly understood that in accepting it with a slight modification, the Government did not see in the language used by the right hon. Gentleman, neither did it recognise as a consequence of the adoption of that Resolution, the establishment of a separate officer as Minister of Justice. He did not think that there was any necessity for the appointment of any such officer at the present time. In his opinion all the objects of the Resolution might be more effectually carried out by means of the existing machinery than by introducing a change in the constitution which would require something more than was embodied in the present proposition. There were abundant means at their disposal for effecting all that had been required by the most comprehensive speaker on the subject, without the admission into the Cabinet of any such Minister. It was abundantly clear to those who had given anything beyond a mere superficial consideration to the subject, that it would be impossible to introduce into the Cabinet a new Minister of Justice, so long as the Lord Chancellor and the Home Secretary remained there, without introducing discordant functions, the possibility of disagreements, opposite views, and the absence of that unity which was so essential to the carrying on effectually the business of the country. It would be remembered that in 1851 measures were brought forward for the purpose of reforming the Court of Chancery, and a new tribunal was instituted called the Court of Appeal, or the Court of the Lords Justices. One of the reasons for constituting that tribunal was to relieve the Lord Chancellor of a considerable portion of his judicial duties, which then pressed heavily upon him, and to leave it in his power to discharge the duties which belonged to what might be called the Minister of Justice. He believed, therefore, that it would be in the power of that distinguished officer, if furnished with a sufficient staff, to accomplish all that was necessary to carry into effect the three great objects in view; first, a general superintendence over the admi-
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  nistration of justice in all its departments; secondly, the superintendence, and effective prosecution of the amendment of the law; and thirdly, the giving prompt, effectual, and complete assistance to the conduct of the business of current legislation. There was no subject necessary to be attended to which did not come under one of those heads, and which could not be performed by the officer at the head of the law, but it could not be efficiently performed save by one bred up to the law, and capable of taking part in its administration. If the unnecessary words, "as an urgent measure of administrative reform" were omitted, he was willing to accept the other part of the Resolution. He would endeavour to give a proof of the earnest views of the Government on the subject by briefly stating his opinions, which he trusted would be considered satisfactory by the House. There were in this country a great number of tribunals, none of them armed with the power of doing complete justice—and it was necessary for the people to resort to several of them, in order to obtain a little portion of justice in one and a little portion in another. There was no uniform rule of administration, either with regard to law or procedure. Those facts showed the necessity of establishing some great department to be charged with the duty of carefully watching and superintending the working of these numerous tribunals, and endeavouring to produce harmony and uniformity in a system which in theory and practice was in many respects altogether objectionable. A small portion of the law of insolvency was committed to the Insolvent Court—another portion of the law was committed to the Bankruptcy Court—another was committed to a speculative sort of tribunal under the Winding-up Act—another was committed to the Court of Equity. There were courts of law opposed altogether to courts of equity. The system of criminal procedure was utterly defective. Prosecutions were instituted and conducted without any control. There was no adequate superintendence in point of judicial authority over the sentences and procedures of our criminal courts. In fact the only hope of proper control rested in charging a responsible department with the duty of superintending the system, collecting details as to the working of that system, presenting these details annually to Parliament, and deducing from them those general conclu-

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  sions with regard to the amendment and alteration of the system, both with respect to alterations in principle and practice, which these statistical returns would necessarily suggest to philosophical minds devoted to their examination. There was one subject to which the Government wished to call the particular attention of Parliament, namely, the manner in which criminal proceedings are conducted. Under the present system, different departments instituted prosecutions according to their own judgment. There was no power of controlling them in any effectual manner, and there was no machinery capable of meeting the emergencies which might arise. In many other branches of the law also the same laxity and want of organised system were observable. With regard to the amendment of the law, the House had during the last two or three years, on different occasions, been placed in a very difficult position, on account of the want of a department to which measures of legal reform could be submitted, and from which they might come, ex cathedra, with the authority and recommendation of responsible and talented men. He would illustrate this by referring to what occurred during the last Session, when he had the honour of proposing a Bill on the subject of the alteration of the testamentary courts, and the providing a cheap and efficient mode of answering the purposes now discharged by the ecclesiastical testamentary courts, and improving the administration of justice with regard to the distribution of the estates of testators. The hon and learned Member for Suffolk (Sir Fitzroy Kelly) introduced a different scheme, and a third was added by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Plymouth (Mr. Collier). Amid such conflicting measures it was almost impossible for the House to decide. Under these circumstances he selected the best features of all the Bills, and embodied them in an amended Bill, but at too late a period, considerable time having been lost in discussing the competing schemes. But if any one of the Bills had been presented with the recommendation of the head of a great department, all or most of those difficulties would have been avoided. With regard to current legislation, suggestions as to the measures to be brought forward, and as to the details of those measures, would properly be made in the Report coming from the Department of Justice. He would allude
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  to another circumstance which proved the absolute necessity of some arrangement. The law consisted of the written and the unwritten law. The written consisted of a variety of statutes, many of them inconsistent, obscure, and difficult to explain. But the unwritten law was in a still worse position. It was to be found in many hundred volumes of Reports, which were constantly being added to without any sufficient authority, without any proper superintendence or control. Any gentleman at the Bar who published a volume of cases, and prefixed his name to it, added to the law; and thus year by year, a very considerable number of volumes was produced, and when they were cited in the courts the Judges felt bound to recognise and act upon them as the law. The laws of the country should not be permitted to be embodied in such unauthorised and unauthenticated sources. If, then, the written law demanded revision, consolidation, and reduction, the unwritten law required the same process to be gone through in a tenfold degree. This could not be done except under the guidance of some such department as that which he wished to see established. He was quite sure the House would understand that in the observations which he had made illustrating the necessity of paying immediate attention to the question, he had stated more particularly his own views and opinions, to which the Government were not to be pledged beyond that pledge which resulted from the adoption (with the alteration he had suggested) of the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman, and the assurance that the result would not be a mere barren matter, but that it would at once be taken into consideration by the Government, and he hoped be productive of the most valuable results.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid: Sir, the speech of the right hon. and learned Attorney General appears to me to consist of two parts. The first and the larger part is a very powerful argument in favour of the proposition of the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier). The right hon. and learned Gentleman told us of the confusion existing, not only in the law but also in the various tribunals which administer the law in a different manner and upon principles which cannot he reconciled with each other; and he pointed out the defects of the criminal law, and the difficulty arising out of that multitude of statutes to which Lord Hardwicke alluded

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  in the quotation made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, the difficulty lately described, too, by the Lord Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, of extracting a clear and definite sense from the various Acts passed through Parliament. Upon that topic, and upon several others, into which I shall certainly not attempt to follow him, the hon. and learned Gentleman has shown the House, in a most convincing manner, not only that the right hon. and learned Gentleman's proposition is founded upon sound principles, but that it requires instant and urgent consideration. I cannot, therefore, but be satisfied at finding the very able arguments of the right hon. and learned Gentleman supported and confirmed, not only by the authority but by the reasoning of the hon. and learned Gentleman. But when I come to the principal question, namely—the adoption of the plan of the right hon. Gentleman—I find that the second part of the hon. and learned Attorney General's speech, in which he considers that question, is eminently unsatisfactory. Not only is it eminently unsatisfactory in itself; but the latter part of it does much to efface the effect of the hon. and learned Gentleman's own arguments and sentiments, for it contains the statement that they are not the arguments and sentiments of the Government, but only those of the hon. and learned Gentleman. When the hon. and learned Gentleman does not confine himself to a statement of his own opinions, when he does not draw his stores from his own knowledge only, but when he expresses the views of the Government, he tells us he is prepared to agree to the Motion with the omission of a few words which he does not think important, although it was evident from another portion of his speech, that their omission would in effect totally alter the scheme of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and that, instead of having a Minister of Justice, or in the very well chosen words of the right hon. and learned Gentlemen, "a separate and responsible Department," it is intended that we should have the Lord Chancellor, aided by certain officers to be appointed for that purpose. This, at least, is the way in which I understood the hon. and learned Gentleman. Now, it is quite true that by the Act passed in 1851, corrected by the Attorney General, the Lord Chancellor is assisted by two Lords Justices. It is true likewise that, whereas Lord Eldon had great difficulty in per-
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  suading Parliament to give him the assistance of one Vice Chancellor, there are now no less than three Vice Chancellors; but I remember very well that in introducing the Bill for the appointment of the Lords Justices, after consultation with various persons on both sides of the House competent to give me an opinion, I adhered to the general sense of the opinions I received, that the Lord Chancellor ought not to be taken out of a court which dealt with the current administration of justice. Accordingly, the Lord Chancellor remains at the head of the Court of Chancery and frequently sits in it, and thereby is kept completely in the current of judicial decisions; he likewise sits at the head of, and often at present alone, in the Court of Appeal in the House of Lords. The Lord Chancellor has very important duties besides these to discharge, duties interesting to every man in the kingdom; he is a member of the Cabinet Council, generally the only member conversant with the law, and he is, therefore, called upon frequently to give opinions relating either to the peace of the kingdom, or, as must lately have been the case, with regard to Persia and China, in consequence of our disturbed relation with these Powers, on questions of international law and the obligations of States. I do not think that the Lord Chancellor, having these various duties imposed on him, can be expected to be competent to preside over a separate department which is to superintend, not only the general administration of the law, but likewise, as the Attorney General has very clearly explained, all Bills introduced for the amendment of the law—in fact, the whole subject generally known by the name of law reform. I do not believe that the Lord Chancellor will have sufficient time at his disposal to undertake that superintendence. And I can attribute to nothing but the inability of the Lord Chancellor to devote his whole mind to the subject of law reform, the project recently brought forward by him for the reform of the Ecclesiastical Courts, including the question of divorce—a project which appears to me eminently inefficient and unsatisfactory. I will now allude to one part only of the important question with which that project deals. There is nothing more calculated to shock every one who is acquainted with the principles of law and of humanity than those actions of crim. con. which take place from time to time in this country, and in which the intimate letters

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  of a wife, written perhaps in the first month of her marriage, and the affection shown by a wife to her husband in various ways, are made matters of evidence and published to the world for the purpose of increasing by £400 or £500 the amount of damages sought to be recovered for the injury sustained by the husband. I cannot conceive any man devoting his whole attention to this subject, with the desire of reforming the law, who would not at once have swept away such an abominable disgrace. There are other kindred actions, such as actions for seduction, almost as offensive to every sound principle; but, with respect to that action which I have first mentioned, I find that the Lord Chancellor proposes not to abolish, but to limit and restrain it in some way or other. I cannot wonder that the legislation thus introduced by the Lord Chancellor should be imperfect, and I cannot admit that there is any sound ground for the statement of the hon. and learned Gentleman as to the inconvenience which would arise from the adoption of the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin, who proposes the formation of a separate and responsible department for the affairs of Public Justice. The hon. and learned Gentleman says that the establishment of such a department would create the chance of discordance, and that there would not be that unity which at present prevails in all the plans for the amendment of the law. But, does that unity prevail, and is there not a good deal of that discordance, which the hon. and learned Gentleman dreads, at present existing? The hon. and learned Member for Plymouth has alluded to what more than once has taken place—namely, that while the Attorney General, like the cook to Sancho Panza, produces a great many excellent dishes, the Lord Chancellor acts the part of the physician, and says, "This is a great deal too much for your health; these dishes are too savoury; you had better not eat them;" and the noble and learned Lord accordingly proceeds some time in July to remove them from before our sight, and does not allow us to indulge our appetite by a taste of any of them. I think, then, that there is not that great danger of discordance arising from the adoption of the right hon. Gentleman's Motion, for I am of opinion that some person, devoting the greater part of his attention to this subject, and consulting, of course, with the Lord Chancellor in the most intimate
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  manner, would be able to introduce and carry measures of law reform far more harmoniously and satisfactorily than we have of late been able to do. I trust, therefore, that the words which the hon. and learned Gentleman proposes to leave out of the Motion will not be omitted. I can understand that the Secretary for the Home Department, if relieved of many of the duties imposed on him of late years—if the inspection of factories and other duties of that kind were taken from him; and if, on the other hand, the Secretary for War were charged with those duties of preserving the public peace which press heavily on the Home Department—I can, I repeat, then conceive that no person could be more fit than the Home Secretary—certainly none better able than the present Home Secretary—to administer a great department for the amendment of the law and for the affairs of Public Justice. Of course he must have fit and competent persons under him, and this House would be found ready to vote the necessary salaries. But either in this way or by a Minister, according to the right hon. Gentleman's proposal, this great Department of Public Justice might be conducted. I own I have no sanguine expectations of any great reforms in law being carried in any other way; and I fear that, unless we proceed by taking some step of this kind, those great objects to which the Attorney General alluded will hardly be carried into effect. I fear, for instance, that in this Session, as in former Sessions, plans will be proposed, will be very much discussed, disputed, and altered, and afterwards, when everybody's attention flags, when men's bodies are exhausted by labour and their minds by the consideration of various political topics, the Bill by general consent will be withdrawn. I wish to see the views of the Attorney General carried into effect. I think he has large and bold views, but I believe I shall assist in carrying them into effect more effectually by declining to accede to his present proposition and by supporting the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman opposite.
  MR. H. S. KEATINGhoped that on a subject with respect to which there prevailed so much unanimity, the Attorney General would not create a difference of opinion by insisting on his suggested Amendment. Everybody seemed to agree in the propriety of that being done which the present Motion proposed should be done; and the only point of difference

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  was as to who should preside over this great department. He concurred in opinion with the Attorney General that the Lord Chancellor would be the proper and legitimate president of the department. The noble Lord had suggested that the Secretary for the Home Department might be a proper person for such an office if relieved from some of his present duties; but, in his opinion, the Lord Chancellor was the legitimate and natural officer to be at the head of a department of this kind. That noble and learned Lord was connected with all those departments with which it would be essential to communicate under the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman, and, however efficiently the present Home Secretary conducted the duties of his office, still, whenever he had to interfere with those tribunals by which the administration of justice was conducted, his communications were carried on in a roundabout, indirect, and by no means satisfactory way. It was the absence of that staff which the right hon. and learned Member for Dublin University sought to have appointed, more than the numerous occupations of the Lord Chancellor, that prevented unity of action between the great officers of State on questions of law reform. That staff would furnish him with the means of doing what was at present impossible. The country was indebted to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for the persevering and able manner in which he had pressed his important proposition on the House. Until that proposition was effectually adopted, consolidation of the law would be wholly impossible, for to attempt to consolidate the law in the first instance was to begin at the wrong end. The current legislation must be brought into proper condition before consolidation could become possible. When control over that legislation was given to a department of justice, consolidation could go on gradually and concurrently with it. Her Majesty's Government would find that the opinions which had been expressed by the Attorney General were entertained by both sides of the House; and the Government would therefore be compelled to identify themselves with those opinions. The effectual adoption of the scheme of the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier) would put an end to those continually recurring debates about law reform which must have disgusted the non-legal Members of the House.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: —In proposing the omission of the words "as an urgent measure of administrative reform," I did not for a moment desire to curtail the efficiency of the Resolution; but they struck me as being words unusual—and I might almost say a little unseemly—in an Address to the Crown. Inasmuch, however, as some apprehension has been entertained that the omission of those words might impair the efficiency of the Resolution, the Government have not the smallest objection to their remaining in it.
  MR. WIGRAMthought it was essential that there should be at the head of the department some officer who would be able to give an undivided attention to the subject. There would be a great deal of business to be done, and it would require the undivided attention of any one, however great his ability might be. There was another essential point which would be this, that the department should be represented by an officer who should have a seat in the House of Commons, whose duty it should be to watch the progress of legislation—to check private legislation where it needed it, and where it did not harmonize with the general scheme of the law, and to conduct in his own person legal improvements.
  MR. W. EWARTcongratulated the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier) on the success of his efforts, and concurred with the last speaker as to the necessity of the proposed Minister of Justice having a seat in that House, in order that he might answer the appeals made to him by the representatives of the people, as was already the case with regard to the heads of the Board of Health, the Poor Law Board, and other public departments. He regarded the scheme of the right hon. and learned Gentleman as the foundation of all law reform.
  SIR ERSKINE PERRYthought that the suggestion of the Attorney General that the Lord Chancellor should be at the head of the proposed department was eminently subversive of the object of the Resolution. The headship of the proposed department was one of the questions at issue, and, for his own part, he attached great importance to the opinion which had been expressed by the noble Lord the Member for London, that the Home Office, which already exercised a superintendence over the administration of criminal law throughout the country, ought to be at the head of the proposed system of superin-

  561
  tendence. Whether, however, the headship of the department was given to the Home Secretary or the Lord Chancellor, no doubt a large staff would be necessary. One objection to making the Lord Chancellor the head of the department appeared to him to be, that he himself as a Judge would natutally fall within the supervision of the department, and it was not reasonable that he should be called upon to judge of his own acts. But there was another reason why he thought that it would be better for a layman to be at the head of the proposed department, which was the able lawyers of the country, from whom the Attorney and Solicitor General were chosen, were excellent practitioners, but not scientific jurists. It was from amongst men who studied the law in their chambers that they choose those who are to form a code. These were the men Napoleon chose to form the code which bore his name. The object of the Resolution would therefore not be fully carried out, unless a layman, assisted by a numerous and able staff, were placed at the head of the proposed department.
  MR. MONTAGU CHAMBERSsaid, that this Resolution was of an extremely comprehensive character, and necessarily imported the appointment of a new and great public officer. It, as one of its objects, comprised a plan for consolidating the written and the unwritten law, one of the greatest efforts that had been made in modern times. They had had debate after debate with reference to the written law; it had been proposed to codify the statutes, to consolidate them, to strike out those which had become obsolete, to modernize and alter antiquated and technical language, and to add to the duties of the department the supervision of the current legislation passing through the two Houses of Parliament. This latter duty alone would require almost the undivided attention of the head or one responsible member of the department. But then there were other duties shadowed forth and suggested with reference to other branches of the law; its proceedings; its statistics of great extent and importance. Take, as one instance, the improvement and administration of the criminal law. Before the proposed department would be placed defects in the existing law, or in its administration. Immediate attention should be paid to all suggestions made on these matters, and there must be a man whose sole duty it was to give them due
  562
  and careful consideration. One subject had not been touched upon during this very interesting and instructive debate, namely, the expense that this department would be to the country. No doubt many economists would say, "You are about to establish a new department, with a man at the head of it at a salary of £5,000 a year, and, besides that, you are going to afflict the country with a numerous staff to assist that official." He answered no doubt it would turn out that they were desirous of giving the community that very great boon, and by doing that they would save the people an enormous expense. Just let them carry their minds back to the reforms proposed during the last thirty years. What was the course that had been adopted? In the first place, some private Member proposed a Committee. That sat; and then there must be a Royal Commission. They had had Commission after Commission, "dragging its slow length along;" but the results had been very small indeed in comparison with the expenses incurred. In fact, if we had had a competent department of justice at the first, we should have saved an enormous sum. With respect to the proposal to entrust the manifold and complicated duties referred to, to the Lord Chancellor, it was utterly impossible that he could discharge them, or efficiently superintend the new staff of officials that must be established. Assuming that the Lord Chancellor of the day invariably possessed the highest legal and intellectual attainments, great quickness, and untiring industry, his ordinary functions were sufficient to occupy the whole of his time, and exhaust all his energies. According to the opinion of many lawyers, the Lord Chancellor ought never to be withdrawn from the duties devolving upon him as head of the Court of Chancery, and considering the extent of these, and the high political functions he was called upon to perform, he would ask, could the Lord Chancellor, by any possibility, be held blameworthy if measures introduced into Parliament were open to the objections even of men who "read as they run?" It was impossible for the Lord Chancellor to give any or sufficient attention to many measures that were introduced; he was consequently obliged to seek for assistance elsewhere. He was compelled to use the services of confidential persons, to whom was entrusted the preparation of Bills, without any responsibility being attached to them. The

  563
  result was, that these persons being very frequently incompetent for their task their measures were unsatisfactory. The Lord Chancellor could not, therefore, arrange, or vigilantly, actively, and carefully direct and superintend the operations required for the proposed reform in legislative and administrative justice. Neither could his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department. With all his admiration for the abilities of his right hon. Friend—rejoicing, too, that he had had the advantage of a legal education, he (Mr. M. Chambers) would take leave to suggest that it would be utterly out of the question to cast upon him the duties contemplated by the measure before them. They were behind the world as far as some of their legal departments were concerned, but it was for very sufficient reasons. Timidity was useful sometimes, because timidity was but cautiousness; and in introducing new offices, and changing that which was regarded as our constitutional protection—the law of the land—it was wise and safe to be extremely cautious. The time, however, had come when every one must he perfectly satisfied that, with respect to the legal reforms which the country required, there was need of a department to mature and introduce them. It was said a measure of this kind would interfere with the privileges of private Members, and operate against their introduction of Bills; if that were likely to be the effect of the Resolution, it would have met with his decided opposition. His notion, however, was that it would lend energy and utility to the exertions of private Members; for instead of having crude and ill-considered schemes placed before them by the Government, measures would be introduced in a perfect state, and, as a consequence, they would have more open days, and more time would be allowed for the discussion and passing of Bills introduced by private Members.
  MR. MALINSsaid, that the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. W. Ewart) had expressed a belief that the Resolution was about to pass with the unanimous consent of the House. Now, he for one, at least, could not allow the Resolution to pass without expressing his impression that the whole affair would end in disappointment. They had to-night, undoubtedly, been discussing a most beautiful theory. There was to be a great public officer, who was to superintend all legislation, both home and colonial. Indeed, according to
  564
  the ideas of an hon. and learned Friend of his who had addressed them that evening, Acts of Parliament were henceforward to be so beautifully framed that the Judges would be perfectly unanimous in construing them, and all differences on points of law would cease. He rose to state his want of concurrence with any such views. With reference to the proper officer to superintend the legal reforms of the country, they had had for generations a great public officer in the Lord Chancellor, whose duty it was to superintend such matters; and the only excuse he had ever heard assigned for the non-performance of those obligations was that the Lord Chancellor had no leisure to attend to them. Now, he begged to say he thought that excuse proceeded upon an extremely erroneous hypothesis. The House was aware that in the year 1851 the Government of the; noble Lord the Member for the City of London passed a Bill appointing two Lords Justices to sit in the Court of Chancery. That step was mainly taken owing to the long illness of Lord Cottenham, and the great arrear of business which had accrued in the Court of Chancery. He believed that at the time the number of appeals awaiting decision were between 70 and 100. However, the Lords Justices were appointed under the general impression that they were to bring to an end a system which had long been objected to—namely, that appeals lay from one Judge to another Judge sitting alone. He was well aware how his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General had expressed himself against that system, both in public and private. Well, to the great surprise of the profession, those learned persons at once proceeded to sit in a separate court from the Lord Chancellor, and they had continued to do so down to the present time. The noble Lord the Member for the City of London and other hon. Members spoke of the Lord Chancellor as sometimes sitting alone. Why, the rule was the Lord Chancellor always sat alone. There certainly were some exceptional occasions when the full Court sat, either upon the petition of suitors, or at the suggestion of the Judges themselves, which occasions occurred about once a month. [Mr. WIGRAM: Once in three months.] His hon. and learned Friend the Member for the University of Cambride, as well acquainted as he (Mr. Malins) was with the practice of the Court of Chancery, said the exceptions only amounted to once in three

  565
  months; however, he wished to be within the truth, and he would say that, at all events, the three Judges constituting the Court very rarely sat together. At the same time this he must state, that when they did sit together they constituted, in his opinion, as satisfactory a tribunal as had ever existed in this country. Well, but in consequence of the determination to sit separate, what happened? Why, the Lord Chancellor and the Lords Justices had divided the appeals between them—his Lordship hearing appeals from two of the Vice Chancellors, while the Lords Justices took appeals from the Master of the Rolls and the remaining Vice Chancellor. Now it had been said that the Lord Chancellor had no time to attend to the business of legislation. Well, he would venture to affirm that last year he need have been under no apprehension as to the arrears of the Court of Chancery. On last Monday morning sittings of the Court were commenced that would continue for seven weeks. Now, the Lord Chancellor had three appeals on his paper, while only six stood for hearing before the Lords Justices—one of which would not come on until Easter Term—so that there virtually were only five appeals before them at present. He did not mean to say there was no business for the Lords Justices. On the contrary, they did a great deal of business in bankruptcy and lunacy cases—in fact, there was always business fully to occupy their time. But that there was appeal business to occupy the Lords Justices and the Lord Chancellor he most emphatically denied. Nor did he think there was a greater farce being enacted at the present time than the attempt to keep up two Courts of Appeal in Chancery. He (Mr. Malins) had practised extensively before the Lord Chancellor; and this he would say, that a Judge more patient and more painstaking, a man who more thoroughly and more undividedly attended to the business of his Court, he never appeared before; and when he saw observations upon the noble Lord which he thought totally unwarranted, totally uncalled for, he thought it only fair to express that which was in his own knowledge. He might not always think the Lord Chancellor right; but this he would say, that whatever conclusions the noble Lord arrived at were the results of the most painstaking efforts that man could make. If, therefore, his conclusions sometimes seemed erroneous, it was not from
  566
  any want of due exertion on his part, nor through absence of ability to guide him, for assuredly he was a man of very considerable ability. And to this must be added, that the Lord Chancellor was, in the highest sense of the term, a gentleman—a man from whose lips no words ever fell which were not fit to be said by one gentleman to another. Having said so much as to individuals, he would address himself to the system, as one which he must thoroughly deprecate—that of an appeal being permitted from one man to one man. He was quite certain, at all events, that it was the intention of the Act of 1851 to put an end to that. He knew that a great difficulty had stood in the way arising out of the Lord Chancellor's political duties; for while the Lord Justices rise at four, the Lord Chancellor frequently rises at two o'clock to attend certain political meetings which take place. Still there were no arrears—no prospect of arrears which could not be disposed of by three Judges sitting together. Now, if one Judge were sufficient to hear appeals, why have two Judges sitting in an adjoining court discharging the same duty? The fact was, a single Judge sitting on appeals never could be satisfactory; neither even in his (Mr. Malins') opinion could two be satisfactory. He ventured to think that if the Lords Justices were to be continued, there was no longer any necessity for the Lord Chancellor sitting on appeals at all. If, however, the Lord Chancellor was the great head of the profession, he was properly from his position the Chief Minister of Justice. It was to him and his subordinates, the law officers of the Crown, that the country had been accustomed to look for the protection of the law, and he trusted the House would be slow to depart from that great constitutional principle. Well, but was the new Minister to be consulted by every Member in that House? Was he, again, to be in the Cabinet. His learned Friend the Attorney General had pointed out the difficulty of placing another great law officer in the Cabinet. What, then, was to be his position? He was to have a seat in that House. Why, how difficult it would be to have an opportunity of speaking to him; and, nevertheless, this law officer was to be the great settler of Acts of Parliament. But had they not already officers answering to that description—gentlemen who prepared Government Bills, and to whom might be referred all Bills introduced into that House? The

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  whole thing was the merest theory; for where could they find the man who could do all that would be required of him? He (Mr. Malins) had tried his hand at law reform. He had succeeded on two occasions in passing a Bill for the amendment of the law, which had been strongly called for, and was still strongly called for by the public. It was a Bill to enable married women to dispose of reversionary interests; and he would venture to say that thousands were watching for that change in the law. Well, in 1853, he succeeded in passing the Bill through that House, receiving for it the support of the law officers of the Crown. Well, the Bill went up to the House of Lords; but he could not find a noble Lord who would do him the honour of moving the second reading of the Bill. In 1854 he was pressed to bring the measure forward again; but his reply was that it was useless to do so, for, although it would pass the Commons, it would find no support in the House of Lords. However, in 1855, he was told he could find support in another place; so again, with the full assent of the law officers, the Bill passed through that House. It then once more went up to the House of Lords, and he was promised that the Bill would be surely read a second time. Well, after a fortnight's delay, he asked how was this? When would the Bill be read a second time? The reply was, "As soon as the Matrimonial and Testamentary Jurisdiction Bills were disposed of." After that he was told the Bill could not be proceeded with because Lord St. Leonard's was away, and he did not approve of the Bill. The Bill again, therefore, fell to the ground; and so, after having twice undergone the ordeal of passing through that House, he had not been able to find a person in another place to move its second reading. He had since received applications to persevere with the Bill, but his answer had been that until he could obtain an assurance of support from noble Lords in another place it was in vain to attempt to pass the Bill. He had, however, since received an intimation from his learned Friend the Attorney General that he would take up the subject now. He mentioned that merely to show the difficulties in the way of private Members in an endeavour to improve the profession to which he had the honour to belong. But why, then, it might be asked, not concur in the appointment of an officer who would remove the difficulties? It was because he believed
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  such an officer as was supposed would have to encounter the same doubts and difficulties as now opposed themselves to the law officers of the Crown. Moreover, if such an officer was appointed, was he to be allowed to continue the practice of his profession? If not, it was perfectly clear he would not be the fitting person to prepare legislation; for he was thus withdrawn from that practical experience of the working of our laws which alone would qualify him to be a practical law reformer. In conclusion, therefore, he would again warn them that, however admirable the plan of his right hon. Friend might appear in theory, in practice it must lead to the greatest disappointment.
  MR. LOCKE KINGsaid, he thought the fate of the Bill relating to the reversionary interests of married women, instead of telling against the present Motion, was one of the strongest possible arguments in its favour. If we had had a Minister of Justice, in all probability that measure would not have had to wait in vain for some one to take it up in the House of Lords. It was matter of sincere delight to him that the Government had adopted the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman, because it was a practical measure, calculated to do more for the cause of law reform than anything else that had occurred for many years. It was earnestly to be hoped that the new Minister, whoever he might be, would have his seat in that House; in which case they would have the means of encouraging him when he did right, of urging him to do more when his performances were deficient, and of constantly putting questions to him as to the progress he was making in legal matters. It was highly gratifying to know that the Motion for the appointment of a Minister of Justice would be the means of effectually breaking up and doing away with the Statute Law Commission, which had already swallowed up too much of the public money. Many noble Lords and learned Gentlemen who had highly distinguished themselves were on that Commission, but they had not time to attend to its duties. His complaint lay against its working staff, who had positively done nothing. No less than £50,000 had been fruitlessly spent on these Commissions; and the present Commissions had degenerated into a job. A Friend of the Lord Chancellor had a sinecure place upon it with a salary of £1,000 a year; and a friend of the Lord Chancellor's friend was

  569
  its secretary, and attended to other work. The Commission, indeed, pretended to have done something, but the only practical result of its labours was one Bill which he (Mr. L. King) had himself been the instrument of passing for it. The other Bills prepared by it were full of every sort of blunder—one of them actually dealing with the subject of South Sea Stock, which had no real existence, having been done away with years ago, and another enacting penalties against societies which had been long obsolete.
  MR. WARREN: Sir, the House need not fear that I shall trouble it at any length, for I cannot help expressing myself apprehensive lest the great cause of Law Reform should be talked to death by lawyers. So many of us have spoken this evening, that it must have been really quite refreshing to listen to the only two laymen that have addressed us—the noble Lord the Member for London and the hon. Member for East Surrey; and yet the great subject before us is really as capable of being usefully treated by able laymen, as lawyers. I hope the House will not be induced by the remarks of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wallingford, to lose sight of the vital importance of the question which we are considering. On no other are keen-sighted and determined thinkers out-of-doors more resolutely set than on this of Law Reform; and unless we here address ourselves to it in a practical, a liberal, and an enlightened spirit, the task of legislation may somehow or other come to be taken out of our hands, by those elsewhere who see that so much requires to be done that we cannot do it, and that they will yet have it done. Sir, the Resolution of my right hon. Friend makes not the slightest allusion to this formidable Minister of Justice, concerning whom we have heard so many misgivings. It is so guardedly worded as to avoid conjuring up that spectre which seems to haunt and oppress the perturbed imagination of my hon. and learned Friend below me (Mr. Malins). The Address to Her Majesty contemplates only "the formation of a separate and responsible department for the affairs of public justice;" and nothing in the able and suggestive speech of the right hon. Mover justifies the trepidation of my learned Friend, to whose own vivid imagination alone he is indebted for the existence of this awful functionary. I repeat it, Sir, that something in this direction must really be done, and done at once.
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  It is loudly demanded out-of-doors, and that demand is echoed unanimously here: and "when we are unanimous our unanimity is wonderful." What I am most afraid of is, lest the Government, which I am glad to see now listening so attentively to this important discussion, should attempt to "keep the word of promise to our ear, and break it to our hope." All I want is, that they should take the matter in hand, in earnest, in a sincere and straightforward spirit. We who sit on this side of the House are thoroughly in earnest on that matter ourselves, and friendly rivals to the other side in the removal of every proved evil, and devising a cautious and practical remedy permanent in its operation. I entreat the noble Viscount at the head of the Government to rise at once and assure us that in acquiescing in this Motion he and his colleagues mean what they say—that they are determined on doing something, and doing it at once: for I can assure him that if he means merely to stave off or quietly cushion the Motion—if his acquiescence be a matter of mere form—that if the Motion is taken up only to be let drop again, this House will deservedly sink in public estimation. Sir, as for that Motion itself, I go heart and soul with my right hon. Friend the mover. As far as I caught the drift and purport of his speech this evening, he aims, if I may so express it, at effecting organic as contradistinguished to functional improvement in our system of legislation. At present it is cumbrous and inconvenient almost beyond the comprehension of those who are not practically cognisant of the fact. I have seen enough of it myself in this House already, before its Committees, and in our Courts of justice. It is there that our blundering tells—pestering tribunals existing for the decision of questions of real and substantial importance, with everlasting doubts and squabblings as to what we meant by the slovenly, obscure, and inconsistent words we have used in the perfunctory discharge of our legislative duties. He tells us, and I agree with him, that there is something wrong with our very mainspring, and therefore the action of our whole machinery cannot but be defective and erroneous. Why should this go on? It is to the last degree discreditable to us. Let the House remember that that great people, the ancient Romans, were so refined and punctilious in cultivating the science of legislation—for they regarded it, as we do not, as a science—

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  that they had laws to instruct them how to make laws. The Lex Licinia and others provided checks against any law unintentionally containing any particular personal privileges, or impairing the force of former laws, or being crowded with multifarious and heterogeneous provisions. Why should not that be so with ourselves? Then, such a thing as came under my notice only this very day, could never have happened, and I will tell it to the House, as an instance, of the mischief we are constantly doing unintentionally. Not long ago, a trading company in the South of England obtained a private Act of Incorporation, and so far all was well. But behold! what does the House think? By a blundering reference in the Act, that constituting another public company of great importance in another part of England, was unknowingly repealed. It had no legal existence. It was, in fact, so to speak, nowhere; and another Act of Parliament was passed in a subsequent Session, indirectly, but effectually remedying the disastrous error, the knowledge of which was confined to three persons only; and this fact is now mentioned for the first time in either House of Parliament. Now I pledge myself to the truth of this statement, and I ask, is it creditable that such a thing could have happened—that great interests should be thus at the mercy of such inconsiderate legislators? It never could have happened had a separate and responsible department for the administration of justice been in existence, and I hope that such a thing never will happen again; but that a tribunal will be called into existence for the deliberate, methodical, and scientific preparation of all new laws of either a public or private nature. One word on another topic touched on by my right hon. Friend, one of very great interest and importance, and I shall sit down. I think he was right in linking with the subject which he brought before us, that of legal education. Sir, ever since I have been able to form an opinion on any question of importance affecting the welfare of the legal profession and of the public, I have been strongly impressed with the necessity of improving our present system of education for the Bar, by instituting a compulsory examination. Unless this be effected, depend upon it all other schemes for promoting the efficient and scientific study of the law will be futile. Let the House just consider, Sir, one thing nearly touching every one of ourselves. Is the House aware
  572
  that a young gentleman of barely three years' standing is eligible for the office of Revising Barrister—and in that capacity must decide questions of vital importance affecting the elective franchise? And that a blunder of his, in respect of facts, cannot be set right but by a ruinously expensive appeal to a Select Committee of this House, while a blunder in point of law must be rectified by an expensive appeal to the Court of Common Pleas? but observe, it is entirely discretionary with the youthful functionary to grant the liberty of so appealing! Now, have not the public—have not we—a right to some protection or guarantee in a matter thus affecting our vital interests? That those entrusted with matters of such transcendent importance, should come to the discharge of their duties only after having passed the ordeal of a bonâ fide examination into their fitness? I assure the House, and my right hon. Friend, that this is a matter which has long occupied the anxious attention of the Benchers of the four Inns of Court; but a grave difference of opinion exists between them on the subject. In that with which I have the honour to be connected, the Inner Temple, there exists such a difference of opinion; and I appeal to my right hon. Friend opposite, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who is one of the Benchers of that Inn, whether the subject has not occupied our attention long and anxiously, and occasioned repeated discussion. I say again, that I am myself strongly in favour of the compulsory system, and have always been so; but some of the most distinguished of my brother Benchers—two of whom I will take the liberty of mentioning, and their names will be received with the highest respect in this House—I mean Dr. Lushington and Mr. Hallam—are, I believe, of a different opinion. I mention this only to show that the subject is one of real and serious difficulty, and at this moment is under the anxious consideration of the Benchers of all the four Inns. I venture to submit that the matter should be left in their hands, as those of persons deeply interested in maintaining the efficiency and dignity of the legal profession, and thoroughly competent to deal with such a subject. I have little doubt that a satisfactory conclusion will soon be arrived at. In conclusion, I sincerely thank the House for their attention, and again express my hope that we shall receive from the noble Lord opposite an assurance that he will take up the matter before us

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  promptly, and in a right spirit, not as a matter of mere formal and passive acquiescence, but as a real substantial tribute of enlightened deference to public opinion out of doors,—disregarding which, this House may depend upon it, that it will be shorn of all moral power.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, agreeing as we do with the Motion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I am quite ready to say, that we agree in it, not simply with a view of disposing of the Motion by our acquiescence in it, but for the purpose of endeavouring to give effect to the principles embodied in the Resolution, which appears to receive the general concurrence of the House. That principle I take to be, that a real effort will be made to organise departmental arrangements, for the purpose of providing for and of promoting reform and improvements in the law. With regard to any particular method of effecting these objects, that which has already passed in the course of the debate is sufficient to show how impossible it is for Government at once to state it. It is very easy for persons to agree in regard to existing defects, but when we come to propose a remedy there arises every sort of difference of opinion. Unfortunately, we have been witnesses to this difficulty on many former occasions, and even in this debate we are again witnessing it. According to the old saying—
  "What to avoid does little knowledge need, But to find a remedy, is a task, indeed."
  Everybody must admit, that we have made, during the latter years, some great improvements in our system of laws. Unfortunately there is, I believe, great room for further amendments. Those amendments, as has been well observed, require the combined efforts of a number of men who have turned their mind, as I may say, to the philosophy of the law. We do not require so much men who have distinguished themselves in the active duties of their profession. What we want are men who have thought deeply, not men who have distinguished themselves by their eloquence, but men who must have the principles of law engraven upon their minds, so as to point out the needed reforms, and direct the course that should be taken for their attainment. Well, we have heard a discussion as to whether there should be a new minister, called a Minister of Justice, or whether we should not build altogether
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  on the existing foundations, and make the most of the organisation we already have, by attaching this new department to that of the Lord Chancellor, or to the Secretary of State for the Home Department. I will not, however, go into this question now, but I think, before we should agree to adopt foreign models, and make what is called a Minister of Justice—before we introduce any new officer into the House, who must be, to a certain extent, a lawyer—who will be called upon to abandon his profession—become a minister of the Administration of the day, and who will be entitled, upon the retirement of such Government, to fall back upon a provision previously made for him—before, I say, the House resolves to adopt an arrangement of that sort, I think it will be right for us to see whether we cannot accomplish our object by attaching the department to some now existing branch of the executive. I can assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman it shall be the duty of the Government to give their most earnest attention to this subject. It is, however, one which he himself admits is surrounded by great difficulties, and which, therefore, demands the most mature consideration. That consideration shall be given to it, and I am not without hopes that those difficulties will be overcome. I am quite sure of one thing—namely, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is rendering a great service to the country by calling attention to a measure of this character; and if the Motion shall result in being the foundation of a great system of legal improvement to be yet erected, the right hon. and learned Gentleman will, I am sure, deserve the thanks of the country, and will, no doubt, feel that satisfaction within himself which the consciousness of having effected so important an improvement in the laws of the country must necessarily confer. We shall therefore agree to his Resolution as an earnest pledge of the Government to meet the wishes of the House, as well as those of the country, on a subject than which no topic, I believe, can be more interesting. We will endeavour to do our best to give effect to this Resolution, and I therefore most cordially concur in the Motion.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, he would consent to almost any change that might be proposed, as it was almost impossible matters could be worse than they were at present. The most necessary legal reforms could not be carried without the utmost

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  difficulty. Take the case of testamentary jurisdiction. Bill after Bill had been brought forward on this subject by the Lord Chancellor, but the public expectations had never been satisfied, and he asked the law officers of the Crown whether they thought the measure which had just been brought into the other House had the slightest chance of passing. The law of mortmain, too, which affected every charity and educational institution in England, called for amendment, and though Bills for that object had passed that House, they had always been dropped in the other House for the want of some person to take them up. He hoped, therefore, that the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin would give them some relief by clearing the way for these rather important reforms.
  MR. NAPIERsaid, he was gratified to find that he had the almost unanimous opinion of the House in his favour, and that the noble Lord had given an assurance that the Resolution would be taken into consideration in a bonâ fide manner. That was all he could possibly expect. He had worded the Resolution so as not to have the appearance of dictating either to the House or to the Government, and had purposely framed it in general terms. Nothing, in his opinion, could more strikingly exemplify the necessity for some such measure as he proposed than the case of the Bill referred to by the hon. Member for Wallingford. He said, the Lord Chancellor was the true Minister of Justice, and yet, no doubt in consequence of the great amount of business the noble and learned Lord had to perform, his hon. and learned Friend had not been able to communicate with him on the subject of his very useful Bill; but if there had been an office or department such as he now proposed, his hon. and learned Friend would have had no difficulty in carrying his measure. He had not said whether a layman or a lawyer should be appointed. He should be sorry to say he should not be a layman; he would be equally sorry to say he should not be a lawyer. What concerned him most was, that the duty should be efficiently discharged. He agreed with the noble Lord in thinking that they should first try to make use of such means as now existed, and see how far they could accomplish the object in view; and if these were found inadequate, that then such additions should be made as circumstances rendered
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  necessary. He was sanguine that, however small the beginning might be, it would be a most useful reform—one that would add to the credit of the Government, the honour of that House, and the welfare of the country.
  Motion agreed to.
  Resolved—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to take into consideration, as an urgent measure of Administrative Reform, the formation of a separate and responsible Department for the affairs of Public Justice."

  CHURCH RATES ABOLITION.
  SIR WILLIAM CLAYsaid, he rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the Abolition of Church Rates, the Bill to be limited to total abolition of such rates, and a provision saving existing legal obligations. The Bill, he said, had not only the same object, but was identical in terms with the measure which he had introduced on the same subject during the last Session of Parliament, and the only difference was that a portion of the former measure was omitted from the present Bill. He therefore felt it unnecessary to trouble the House with any observations, but when he moved the second reading he would explain the reasons which had induced him to make the omission to which he had referred, and he would also feel it his duty to comment upon the important return relating to the subject which had been laid upon the table in compliance with the Motion of a noble Lord opposite.
  MR. SPOONERsaid, he did not rise to offer any opposition to the Motion of the hon. Gentleman; at the same time he hoped that it would not thereby be supposed that those with whom he generally acted gave their assent to the measure. He hoped, however, that the Government would now state what their intentions were respecting it. The right hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department had already declared that the Government had no Bill of their own to introduce upon the subject; and further, that they were not prepared to say whether they intended to move an Amendment to a Bill not actually before the House. The nature of the present measure was now clearly explained; it was absolutely and unqualifiedly for the total abolition of church rates. It would be most satisfactory to the country to learn at once whether the Government were prepared to give their assent to a Bill for the unqualified abolition of church rates or not.
  MR. LABOUCHEREobserved that his right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department had stated on a former occasion that the Government had no intention of introducing any measure on this subject during the present Session; but he said that when the question was brought before the House that would be the proper time for the Government to declare what course they intended to pursue. He (Mr. Labouchere) hoped the hon. Gentleman would not expect the Government now to go out of the way to express their opinion, as the proper time for so doing would be when the second reading of this Bill came on, and then no doubt his noble Friend (Viscount Palmerston) or the Home Secretary, would state the views entertained by the Government.
  Leave given.
  Bill to Abolish Church Rates ordered to be brought in by Sir WILLIAM CLAY, Mr. HUTT, and Mr. MIALL.
  Bill read 1o.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE POLLOCK.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  CAPTAIN LEICESTER VERNON,in moving for a copy of all correspondence relating to the removal of General Pollock, G. C. B., from the Direction of the Honourable East India Company, said that some time ago, when he called the attention of the House to the employment of General Officers in the scientific corps of the army, he mentioned the name of Sir George Pollock as an officer of artillery of extraordinary merit, and stated that that officer had been selected from officers of every arm in the service of the Crown and of the Company to re-establish the supremacy of the British arms in India, and to restore to those arms the lustre which had been tarnished by the ignominious disasters of Cabul. He also stated that General Pollock achieved those objects in as brilliant and decisive a campaign as was recorded in the history of this or any other country; it was no part of his business at that time to dilate upon that gallant officer's services, but it had now become necessary for him to mention them, and he would do so as briefly as possible. In January, 1842, the British army, nominally commanded by General Elphinstone, but unfortunately actually under the control of Sir W. M'Naghten, having for sixty-five days endured greater humiliations than had ever before been suffered by British troops, surrendered their position, and on
  578
  the 6th of that month 4,500 fighting men, encumbered by thrice that number of camp followers, prepared to retreat from Cabul. On the 12th of January a solitary horseman, the messenger of death, crawled into Jellalabad. He was, with the exception of a few prisoners, the sole survivor of 17,000 persons who had left Cabul only six days before, thus verifying to the very letter the singular prediction of Colonel Denny, who had given it as his opinion, that if the retreat was undertaken only one man would survive, who would bear to the British posts the news that the rest of the army had perished. This intelligence paralysed the Executive, cowed the military spirit of the sepoys, and shook to its very centre that huge mosaic—the British Empire in India. The panic-stricken authorities had then to look for a man equal to the emergency. That man they found in General Pollock. With whatever faults Lord Auckland might be chargeable, he had to a great extent retrieved them by selecting General Pollock, against the advice of some persons, to command the army which was to liberate the captives and restore the prestige of the British army in Affghanistan. General Pollock was then an artillery officer, and had given thirty-eight years of valuable service to the country; he had served at the storming of Bhurtpore; he had been selected by Lord Lake to command the artillery sent in pursuit of Holkar, and he had commanded the Bengal artillery at Rangoon in the first Burmese war; and for these services he had been made a Commander of the Bath. He (Captain L. Vernon) did not wish to trouble the House with reference to many documents, but he would ask permission to read about six lines from Kaye's History of the War, descriptive of the merits of General Pollock. He was anxious that the House should know the gallant officer by his glorious deeds, as he (Captain L. Vernon) did, for he confessed he had never seen the general in his life. Kaye says.—
  "The appointment of General Pollock gave the greatest satisfaction to the Supreme Government, and not one murmur of disapprobation arose from the general body of the army. The nomination of this old and distinguished Company's officer was believed to be free from the corruption of aristocratic influence and the taint of personal favouritism. It was believed that in this case at least the selection had been made solely on the ground of individual merit. He was thoroughly conscientious, he was actuated in all that he did by the purest motives—by the highest principles. He was essentially an honest man. The force now

  579
  to be despatched to the frontier of Affghanistan required the superintendence and control of an officer equally cool and firm, temperate and decided, and, perhaps, in the whole range of the Indian army the Government could not have found one in whom these qualities were more eminently combined than in General Pollock."
  General Pollock being an Indian officer, the Horse Guards, of course, cavilled at his appointment, and the Commander in Chief in India, Sir Jasper Nicholls, had to defend the appointment, and wrote to Lord Fitzroy Somerset a letter which contained the following extract in reference to General Pollock:—
  "When Major General Pollock arrived at Peshawur he found 1800 men of the 4th Regiment in hospital, the Sepoys declaring that they would not advance again through the Khyber Pass, the Sikh troops spreading alarm, and in all ways encouraging and screening their desertion, which was considerable. It was well that a cautious, cool officer of the Company's service should have to deal with them in such a temper 363 miles from our frontier. General Pollock managed them exceedingly well. Any precipitancy on the part of a general officer panting for fame might have had the worst effect."
  Before General Pollock appeared upon the scene, disaster had followed upon disaster. England had been defeated, Ghuznee had been taken, the army was destroyed, and General Wylde had been beaten back from the Khyber Pass. General Pollock forced the Pass at the point of the bayonet, relieved Jellalabad, beat the Affghans in three battles, liberated the captives, planted the British flag on the Bala Hissa of Cabul, and then led back his victorious army through the formidable Passes in triumph and safety. The whole empire rang with his achievements, for all men felt that by him India had been saved. The House would be able to contrast by the list which he was about to read the manner in which services in India were rewarded before General Pollock's time, and the manner in which they were rewarded in his person. For his successes against the Mahrattas, General Lake was made Lord Lake; General Harris was made Lord Harris for the capture of Seringapatam; Sir Stapleton Cotton was made Viscount Combermere for the capture of Bhurtpore; Sir John Keane was created Lord Keane, for the capture of Ghuznee; Sir Hugh Gough and Sir Henry Hardinge were raised to the peerage for the Sutlej campaign; General Willshire was made a baronet for the capture of Khelat; General Sir Harry Smith, a baronet for the battle of Aliwal; General Ochterlony, a
  580
  baronet for Nepaul; General Gilbert, a baronet for successes against the Sikhs; General Campbell, a baronet for services in Burmah; and Lord Ellenborough created an earl and a G. C. B. for the successes in Affghanistan, China, and Scinde. For saving India General Pollock received the thanks of Parliament, and was made a Grand Cross of the Bath, of which order he was already a commander; and his second in command was also made a G. C. B., though he had not received the intermediate distinction. Twelve years afterwards, in 1854, it became the duty of the Government to appoint three Directors to the Board of Direction of the East India Company. The right hon. Member for Halifax (Sir Charles Wood), the then President of the Board of Control, signified to General Pollock his intention to name him as one of the Directors, in the following letter, which was as honourable to the right hon. Gentleman as gratifying to the gallant general:—
  "India Board, April 7, 1854.
  "My dear Sir George,—The time for the nomination of three Directors of the East India Company by the Crown having arrived, it becomes my duty to recommend to Her Majesty the persona whom I believe to be most capable of discharging the important duties of Directors, and to possess such qualifications as will complete the Court in full efficiency for the performance of the various functions intrusted to them in reference to the government of India. Among those duties one of the most important is the superintendence of the large military force of the Company, and I am anxious to see a tried soldier among the Directors, well acquainted with the requirements of the military service in India. No one has more triumphantly led that army, and under the most trying circumstances, than yourself, and I shall have great pleasure in marking my sense of your services in that army by recommending you to the Queen as one of the Directors to be named by Her Majesty. You will be the senior of the three whom I shall recommend, and, according to the course adopted by the Court as to the Directors whom they have chosen, I shall propose to place your name the first on the list, and for the period of two years, as I must name the period in conformity with the Act. They have named the seniors for the shorter period, and I shall thus have placed the nominated and elected Directors as far as possible on the same footing.
  "I am, &c.,
  "CHARLES WOOD;"
  These three Directors nominated, by the Government, it must be observed, were equally eligible for reappointment with the Directors elected by the Company. The post of senior Director was given to General Pollock for his unpayable services in India, and in order to place the two other Directors on an equal footing with their

  581
  colleagues they were nominated for four and six years respectively. Neither of these two gentlemen had saved India, and it was therefore fair to assume that it was intended to reappoint General Pollock at the end of the two years. Had it not been so, he being the person who had the greatest claims, would naturally have been named for the longest period. That was the generally received opinion, and it was General Pollock's own opinion. But the present President of the Board of Control (Mr. Vernon Smith) had acted in a different spirit, for on the 20th of March, 1856, the right hon. Gentleman wrote to Sir G. Pollock the following letter:—
  "India Board, March 20, 1856.
  "My dear Sir George,—I think it due to the high consideration I entertain for your character and services to inform you, before the period arrives, of the course I think it my duty to pursue upon the vacancy that will be created in the Court of Directors by the expiration of the term of your appointment. Upon a careful revision of the discussions on the Act of 1853, in which I took part myself, I am convinced that it was the intention of the Legislature that a fresh appointment, and not a reappointment, should be the general rule to be followed by the Minister of the Crown in his recommendations to Her Majesty. As this is the first occasion on which the exercise of tins discretion has occurred, I think it most desirable to maintain the principle whereby, in my opinion, the direction will be made most valuable, and therefore, in spite of the high value I set upon your services, it is not my intention to propose your reappointment. I am unaware at this moment whether, if I had found it compatible with my public duty to offer you the office again, you would have wished to accept it, and therefore it is quite open to you to let it be considered that you would not, if more agreeable to you: at any rate, I trust that you will understand that my course is entirely prescribed by public principle, and that nothing in it can in the least detract from that high renown which places your name among the first in Indian annals of warfare.
  "I am, with the sincerest respect,
  "Yours very truly,
  "R. VERNON SMITH."
  Now he (Captain L. Vernon) would ask, was this a creditable document to come from the India Board, signed by a Minister of the Crown and one of Her Majesty's Privy Council? The right hon. Gentleman's justification of himself on grounds of "public principle" was only separated by a colon from the proposed subterfuge of the gallant General's letting it be understood that he was not anxious to be reappointed. It was rather astonishing that the right hon. Gentleman should have come to such a conclusion as to the non-reappointment of nominated directors in the face of two clauses of the Act of Parliament regulat-
  582
  ing the Government of India. The right hon. Gentleman did not appear to have read very carefully this passage in the 7th section of the 16 & 17 Vict., c. 95:—
  "And every person who shall, or but for reappointment or re-election would, cease to be a Director by the expiration of his term of office, shall be capable of being forthwith reappointed or of being re-elected at the election holden on the day of the expiration of such term."
  Nor this in the 8th section:—
  "And it shall be lawful for Her Majesty from time to time, upon or after the expiration of the term of office of any Director or Directors by Her Majesty by warrant under the Royal sign manual, to appoint or reappoint a person or persons to fill such vacancy or vacancies."
  However, the reply of Sir George Pollock was just such a one as might have been expected from so gallant an officer and honourable a man:—
  "East India House, March 24, 1856.
  "My dear Sir,—I have to acknowledge the honour of your communication of the 20th inst., stating that you are convinced it was the intention of the Legislature that a fresh appointment, and not a reappointment, should be the general rule, and that therefore you feel it to be your duty not to recommend me to Her Majesty for reappointment, but to establish the rule and maintain the principle on this first occasion of a vacancy. I beg you will accept my best thanks for the very flattering allusion to my services in India which accompanied the communication. I was appointed by Sir Charles Wood in a private letter (extracts from which I enclose), without any solicitation on my part, and (although I need hardly say that, had I anticipated removal on the expiration of my two years' tenure of office, I should have hesitated to accept the office) it was not my intention at the present time either to request a reappointment, or to decline it if offered; I was content to leave the decision in the hands of Her Majesty's Ministers, under the confident expectation that it would be in accordance with what is due to me and advantageous to the State. The expression of your intentions certainly caused me some surprise. I am obliged by the consideration for me with which you suggest that (if more agreeable to me) 'it is quite open to me to let it be considered, that I would not accept office if again offered;' but in answer to this, I beg to say, that with reference to the policy you assign, as a reason for the course you pursue, I do not see why any disguise should be adopted; and, as I certainly should have accepted the reappointment had it been offered to me, I think it is better for the public service and more honourable to you and myself that the truth (whatever it is) should appear.
  "I remain, my dear Sir,
  Yours very truly,
  "GEORGE POLLOCK."
  This letter required no comment. It was a plain, straightforward, soldierlike, honourable letter, and would well stand com-

  583
  parison with the document of the India Board. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control ought to thank him for this opportunity of explaining his extraordinary letter, and of making known to the Indian army on what principle it was that the services of a distinguished soldier like General Pollock had been so unworthily dealt with. He did not expect to gain redress for General Pollock, but if this Motion were granted at least this point would be gained. The history of Sir George Pollock would stand in the records of that House from the hour when he received the thanks of Parliament for his deeds to that in which those deeds were ignored by the Board of Control, and in the same pages would be found the narrative of his great achievements and of the small consideration which they had gained him.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That there be laid before this House, a Copy of all Correspondence relating to the removal of General Sir George Pollock, G. C. B., from the Direction of the Honourable East India Company."
  Mr. VERNON SMITH: Sir, my answer to the Motion of the hon. Gentleman is simply this:—There is no official correspondence in existence as to the non-reappointment of Sir George Pollock, and that Sir George Pollock never was removed from his office, and therefore the hon. Member is doing Sir George Pollock a wrong in speaking of his removal from office. Such a thing was never contemplated, and never done. That, Sir, would be a sufficient answer to the Motion of the hon. Gentleman to prevent it being put in point of form from the chair, but he has entered with considerable detail into a question upon which I think it is my duty to follow him. As regards the preliminary part of his speech, in which he spoke of the achievements of Sir George Pollock, it is utterly impossible for any one to deny the splendid victories achieved by Sir George Pollock in Affghanistan, and I should be the last man to attempt to do so. I had the satisfaction to mention them in public when I met Sir George Pollock at a dinner at the East India House, upon which occasion I said that gallant officer had executed the magnificent manœuvre which drove the Khyberees from their precipitous fastnesses, and added that Nadir Shah had only accomplished by corruption what Sir George Pollock had done by force of arms. There is no statement which can be made of the
  584
  glory of that officer's career which I am not ready to endorse. If the honours which Sir George Pollock has received from the Crown have been an inadequate reward, the proper course would have been to move an address to the Crown, praying that further honours might be bestowed, but I must say I have the greatest reason to complain of the conduct of the hon. Member towards me. This is the first instance in my experience in which when an hon. Member has thought it his duty to read private letters, he has not at least given notice to the person whom they chiefly concerned. Those letters were private, as all who know the course pursued relative to the exercise of the patronage of the Crown are well aware. The hon. Gentleman did not say whether he had the consent of Sir George Pollock to read them, and I should doubt much whether that gallant Officer would have sanctioned such a course. That, however, is a question between the hon. Member and myself, but, nevertheless, it leaves me completely disarmed, as I have had no opportunity of referring to any notes of my own to ascertain whether there were other letters than these which have been read, or to make myself acquainted with the contents of those that have been read. As far as I recollect, the circumstances were these: I knew I should be called upon in April 1856, to appoint a Director of the East India Company. Several private communications took place between myself and the Chairman of that Company, who asked me whether I intended to reappoint Sir George Pollock; to which I replied, decidedly not; and in conversation I expressed to him, what I now repeat to the House, my extreme pain that I should not find it consistent with my duty to reappoint that gallant Officer. I put the question whether Sir George Pollock was willing to make any intimation to me, or whether he had any wish to be re-appointed, but I never heard either from the Chairman or Sir George Pollock upon the subject. I am sure the House will believe that the most painful situation a public man can be placed in is when he is called upon by his public duty to act with what may appear harshness towards a person for whom he entertains the highest respect. If it is a charge against me that, in endeavouring to soften as much as possible any feelings of irritation which Sir George Pollock might entertain, I went too far in the letter which has been read, I bow to the charge, and

  585
  say, I would have gone thrice as far to avoid causing him pain. My impression in writing that letter was that I was paying Sir George Pollock every compliment I could think of. I repeat it. It was my duty to choose the fittest man, and I did not think Sir George Pollock the fittest person to be reappointed; and, in writing that letter, I did all I could to lessen any irritation which he might feel. It was a painful duty to make such a communication to a man of his rank and character, but I did not choose to shrink from it. In 1853 a discussion took place in this House upon the India Bill, in which I and others who took part in it expressed opinions that the object to be gained by a new mode of selection of East India Directors was the infusion of fresh blood into the direction; and my hon. friend the Member for Huntingdon went so far as to propose that no person should be elected a Director under this method who had been absent more than five years from India. Thus, when it became my duty to make a selection, I felt I could not recommend the re-appointment of Sir George Pollock, and in his place I recommended Sir H. Rawlinson, a man of world-wide reputation, and a diplomatic as well as military character. Soon afterwards Mr. L. Melville died, and I then recommended the appointment of General Vivian, upon the sole ground of advantage to the State, from his recent experience of warfare as well as his service at Madras, Surely I cannot be charged with improper motives or sinister objects in making those recommendations. Can any one accuse me of corruption in this, or the consultation of either my own interest, or even my own ease? If I had wished to consult my own convenience in the transaction of business, there are no Directors a President of the Board of Control would prefer to gentlemen who never interfere with him. The hon. Member seems to consider the Board of Directors as a place of honourable retirement. ("No!") The hon. Gentleman asked, was that a reward for Sir George Pollock's services? No one meant it as a reward. His rewards were the dignities conferred upon him by his Sovereign and country. My duty was to supply the direction with new vigour, to select the most useful men for the office. I have done so. The public and the press at home and in India have approved my choice. This Motion is a proof of the difficulty which a Minister experiences in the performance of his duties. There is
  586
  an outcry for Administrative Reform, and hon. Gentlemen are continually watching the actions of the Government to see whether they put "the right man in the right place;" and yet, when it becomes my misfortune to be compelled to supersede a gentleman whom I do not think competent from his infirmities of age to discharge the duties of the office, I am charged with an improper dismissal. I did not dismiss Sir George Pollock, nothing made it necessary for me to do so, but the two years for which he was appointed having expired I declined to reappoint him, as, if I had, it must have been for the six ensuing years. The hon. Member says I should thank him for having brought this matter forward; but I do not think he has given either Sir George or myself any reason for thanks, as he has compelled me to state opinions which I have been most unwilling to utter. My main desire has been to avoid wounding the feelings of Sir George Pollock. If I out-stepped prudence in proposing that he should resign instead of not being re-appointed, or if there be anything illogical in my letter, it arose from that motive. I shall never regret, nor am I now ashamed of the suggestion I made, or of the course I pursued. I consulted my noble Friend at the head of the Government, and am convinced that I acted rightly in placing in the direction of the East India Company men who are able to carry out with vigour those schemes of improvement which all Indian reformers press upon us, and which cannot be accomplished if the direction is allowed to become an effete and languid body. I presume the hon. Member will not press his Motion, as the papers are private documents which he has obtained I know not whence, but which I cannot believe, unless he tells me so, that he has obtained from a gallant and honourable officer like Sir George Pollock. I should be sorry to put on the Journals of the House a statement that Sir George Pollock was removed,—which, I repeat, never was done. His time of service had expired, and I did not shrink from what I believed to be my duty to appoint a person better qualified by great abilities and greater activity.
  MR. DISRAELI: When the Indian Bill was first submitted to this House in 1853, I supported a Motion of my hon. Friend, then Member for King's Lynn, by which that Bill would have been defeated, and I remember on that occasion we had

  587
  the valuable support of the present President of the Board of Control. I thought it an ill-conceived measure, that would not only disappoint public expectation, but instead of improving tend rather to injure the administration of our Indian empire; and all that I have observed since, and all that I can calculate as to its effects, entirely confirm the opinion I then formed. I believe it is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs, and that the attention of Parliament must necessarily be speedily called to the subject. I do not doubt that now the President of the Board of Control generally agrees with me in these views, because I cannot suppose that his having attained, quite honourably, the high office which he holds, and the duties of which I am willing to believe he performs with satisfaction, can in any material manner affect the opinions resulting from considerable thought and study which he then entertained. Therefore, Sir, upon the affairs of India the President of the Board of Control and myself probably have many opinions in common. Though it was a minor point, I was in some degree reconciled to the passing of the Act of 1853, by the judicious manner in which the highest patronage of the office over which the right hon. Gentleman presides—namely, the nomination of Directors—was exercised by the Government. There was a general opinion that the appointments were made without any undue influence, and that the Gentlemen chosen were the best who could be selected. A very short time, however, has elapsed, and we are called upon, under circumstances which I am sure every Gentleman feels to be very painful, to canvass the case of a Gentleman whose appointment, which gave very general satisfaction when it was made, but whom, on the termination of his period of office, the Government declined to reinstate. I am not surprised, after what has occurred, that General Pollock wishes his case to be laid before Parliament, and I am bound to say my hon. Friend has shown great spirit and Parliamentary talent in the manner in which he has brought it under the notice of the House. In what a strange position do we find ourselves to-night! I am willing to believe that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. V. Smith) has acted upon the purest convictions of what he thought to be his duty. A Minister must act on his own responsibility; and the right hon. Gentleman has vindicated, in a manly and spirited manner, the exercise of his discretion; but
  588
  in doing so he has made an attack upon one of his colleagues. General Pollock, a man of more than European reputation, of world-wide reputation—to use the epithet of the President of the Board of Control—was appointed only two years ago, with the approbation of the public, by the present First Lord of the Admiralty. If General Pollock, from age and infirmity, is now incapable of holding office as a Director of the East India Company, why was he appointed by the colleague of the right hon. Gentleman? It is not poosible that in two short years those abilities which gained great victories, and that high character which commanded general approbation, should dissolve. If Sir G. Pollock is incompetent now, it was a bad appointment two years ago. But what evidence have we that he is incompetent? Is it to be found in the letter read to us by my hon. Friend? It appeared to me to be a dignified letter, expressed in manly and proper language, and to be the production of a man fully equal to any position he might be called on to occupy. I do not question the right of the President of the Board of Control to act on his own responsibility, but, having no evidence before me that Sir George Pollock is not as capable as he was two years ago, I must say I deplore that he is no longer a member of the direction of the East India Company.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I think that the House will agree with me that though it may not be unusual, it is very inconvenient for discussions of this kind to turn on the personal merits of individuals, but I must say it is very incorrect to describe the course of my right hon. Friend as one implying anything derogatory to the high qualities of Sir George Pollock. Nor does it at all follow that, because my right hon. Friend (Mr. V. Smith) in the course of last year thought it his duty, on a comparison of qualification, to prefer another person to Sir George Pollock, my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty did not act perfectly right in the appointment of Sir George Pollock two years ago. I should hope the hon. Gentleman who made this Motion will not place upon our records the assertion, inconsistent with fact, that Sir George Pollock was removed from the direction of the East India Company. My right hon. Friend might have removed Sir George Pollock before the time of his service had expired. If my right hon. Friend had done that, it would have been necessary to

  589
  have shown grave reasons for such an exercise of the Royal prerogative. But he did not do so. Sir George Pollock was placed in the direction for two years. The term having expired, it was the duty of my right hon. Friend to consider the relative qualifications of different persons who might be appointed, and if, on a balance of considerations, he thought another person was fitter from age and other circumstances to discharge the duties of Director, it was his duty to prefer that other person, It was no disparagement whatever to the high character of Sir George Pollock that another was preferred. The position of official men who have to fill up appointments is exceedingly difficult, but the difficulty will be aggravated if, when they make the best selection according to their opinion of the candidates, their conduct is to be called in question in the House of Commons, and the House of Commons is, as it were, to make itself the judge of the relative merits of persons who are appointed by the responsible officers of the Crown. I hope it will be clearly understood that the high professional character of Sir George Pollock and the professional reputation he enjoys for the important services he has rendered are in no degree whatever disparaged by the exercise of discretion which my right hon. Friend has made. Sir George Pollock's period of service expired, my right hon. Friend chose another person; but Sir George Pollock was not removed, and really it would be very unfair to him to record a removal which, in point of fact, never took place.
  CAPTAIN LEICESTER VERNONsaid, he had no wish, after the explanations which had been given, to insist on the word removal. With respect to the letters, it was sufficient for him, as a British Officer and a Member of the House of Commons, to say that they fell into his hands, and he was willing to undertake the whole responsibility of using them. But, of course, if there were no other correspondence than that which he had read he had nothing to ask for, and his Motion fell to the ground.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.

  LEAVE.
  MR. LLOYD DAVIESsaid, he rose to submit to the House the necessity for legislation to prevent the gross inequalities in the Weights and Measures of the United Kingdom. Parliament had intended to
  590
  make the use of weights and measures uniform, but the Act had been inoperative in consequence of a proviso in one of the clauses. The 6th clause in the 5 & 6 Will. IV. abolished the use of all local and customary measures, but the intention of the Act was defeated by the following proviso:—
  "Provided always that nothing herein contained shall prevent the sale of any articles in any vessel, where such vessel is not represented as containing any amount of Imperial measure, or of any fixed, local, or customary measure heretofore in use."
  The result was that at Bedford wheat was sold at 62 lb. to the bushel; at Chester, 75 lb.; at Launceston, 62 lb.; at Truro, 140 lb.; at Hereford, 60 lb. or 80 lb. This difference, which was equal to 20 s. a quarter between the North Riding and Hereford, made it impossible to depend upon the corn averages. He trusted that the Government would bring in a Bill to render the law operative, and make it compulsory to sell by the Imperial measure, and no other, since it was difficult, if not impossible, for a private Member to pass such a measure. He would suggest that grand advantages would result from buying and selling all dry goods by weight, and adopting 10 lbs. as the stone, making ten stones or 100 lbs. the hundredweight, and twenty hundred weight the ton, as at present. A great deal of discussion had taken place on the decimal coinage, but the simple adoption of 10 lbs. for the stone and 100 lbs. for the hundredweight would be easily carried out, and would do much to accustom the public to the advantages of decimal calculation. The hon. Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to weights and measures.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he thought that every hon. Gentleman present must concur in the observations of the hon. Member as to the desirableness of uniformity of weights and measures. It was one of those maxims easily laid down, and which, when laid down, commanded universal assent. But unfortunately the Legislature upon this matter often experienced its powerlessness in contending with the inveterate habits of different localities. There was hardly any spot in the rural districts that had not its own peculiar habits in buying and selling. Each locality perfectly understood its own customs, and they did not lead between persons accustomed to them to uncertainty

  591
  and difficulty. When the Legislature attempted to enforce one universal system of weights and measures it was met by the passive resistance of persons habituated to their own weights and measures. That had been the reception of the imperial bushel and quarter. In many parts the imperial measures were used simply, in other districts other measures were used in combination with the imperial measure. It might be suggested, indeed, whether in selling corn it would not be better, on the whole, altogether to discard measurement, and, instead of selling by the bushel or the quarter to sell corn by weight. But then it must be remembered that the averages of the Tithe Commutation Act depended on the quarter, and that if the bushel and the quarter were discarded it would be necessary to reform their legislation in this and other respects. The decimal system was introduced at the French revolution. The introduction of those decimal weights and measures was a matter of slow progress in France, and even now was not universally established in all parts of the country. It was, however, a matter well worthy of attention, and he might remind the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lloyd Davies) that the decimal coinage was now under the consideration of a Commission. When he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) received the Bill of the hon. Gentleman he could assure him it should receive his attentive consideration.
  MR. ADDERLEYsaid, that from first to last a great deal had been attempted but nothing material had ever been done in reference to the subject of weights and measures. A Committee sat on the question in 1790, and three others subsequently; Acts were passed upon the subject in 1824, 1826, and 1835; but the last-named Act had not only a loop-hole in it so large that a coach-and-six might be driven through it, but it contained an unfortunate proviso which rendered the whole legislation upon the matter perfectly valueless. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that certain localities in the country had their own peculiar kinds of weights and measures. That was not only so, but even in particular localities the variety of weights and measures and the difference in the customs of the people were so marked as to occasion a degree of confusion exceedingly detrimental to the trade of the country. While all that variety existed on the subject it was clearly the interest of the trading community at large to act on a prin-
  592
  ciple of complete unison. His own constituents felt the present system so detrimental to their interests that a short time ago they urged him to undertake some legislation on the subject, and he fully intended to have made an attempt early in the present Session; but, on seeing that the hon. Member for the Cardigan district (Mr. Lloyd Davies) had a Motion on the paper, he (Mr. Adderley) left the matter for the present in his hands. The hon. Member had now brought the subject before the House, and he (Mr. Adderley) hoped he would not relax in his efforts to carry his measure in spite of the poor encouragement he had received from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. All that was wanted was, that a stone, pound, bushel, yard, or foot, should be the same, and should be a fixed quantity in all parts of the country. After all, it was not so large a measure as the Chancellor of the Exchequer supposed, and he thought the hon. Member himself (Mr. Lloyd Davies) rather travelled out of the record when he sought to mix it up with the question of the decimal coinage. What he (Mr. Adderley) understood to be wanted was a far simpler thing,—namely, that the standards of weights and measures and the lineal standards in this country should be laid down by law, and should be intelligible to everybody and imperatively uniform. Besides the short-comings of the existing law, the penalties imposed by it were such that they were seldom or never likely to be enforced, and, indeed, there was no adequate machinery for enforcing them; so that practically the law was almost inoperative. However simple the proposal of the hon. Member (Mr. Lloyd Davies) was, it was nevertheless one which could only stand a fair chance of being carried with the assistance of the Government, and he (Mr. Adderley) trusted it would meet with their best consideration.
  MR. M'CANNsaid, that the proposition before the House was not capable of being carried so easily as the hon. Member (Mr. Adderley) seemed to think. The greatest diversity of practice prevailed throughout the kingdom in reference to weights and measures. It was difficult to wean people from old customs. In London, for example, corn of all kinds was sold by measure, while in Liverpool everything was sold by weight. If it could be arranged that all dry goods should be sold by weight all over the kingdom, and all liquids by measure, the thing desired would be very easy of accomplishment and intelligible to every

  593
  person. It was not worth while to make a change here and a change there unless a grand change was made all over the country, and that, in his opinion, should be the introduction of one uniform decimal system.
  MR. LLOYD DAVIESin reply, said, he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would introduce a measure making it imperative to sell corn by weight. If the right hon. Gentleman would not do so he should bring a proposition before the House to carry out that object.
  MR. ROEBUCKsaid, the question now before the House was not whether corn should be sold by weight or by measure, but whether there ought not to be a uniformity of measures. The Legislature ought to get rid of irregularity in weights and measures, but it ought not to command people to do a thing in a certain way when they were the best judges of how it ought to be done.
  MR. BASSsaid, that at present he did not know the meaning and real value of the various measures employed within twelve miles of his own manufactory. He thought this was a state of things disgraceful to us as a commercial community, and that means should be adopted to secure uniformity. He doubted whether any Gentleman there could tell the precise amount of a sack of wheat in England, a barrel of wheat in Ireland, and a boll of wheat in Scotland. This was not a state of things which should continue, and he regretted that the Government were not disposed to take up the subject. He doubted the principle of making corn saleable otherwise than by measure, as that practice was adopted in the greatest corn market in the world—London.
  MR. MICHELLobserved, that poor people, who bought wheat by measure, were liable to be cheated by the farmers.
  Leave given.
  Bill—to amend so much of the Act of the 5th & 6th years of William the Fourth as relates to Weights and Measures throughout England and Wales—ordered to be brought in by Mr. LLOYD DAVIES and Mr. ADDERLEY.

MOLDAVIA AND WALLACHIA.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTON LORD CLAUD HAMILTON moved that an Address be presented for a Copy of the Treaty concluded by his Majesty the Emperor of Austria with the Sublime Porte, on the 14th day of June, 1854, relative to
  594
  the military occupation of the Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia. He said that his object in making this Motion was to call the attention of the Government to the fact that no treaties, however important they might be, and however they might affect the interests of Great Britain, appeared in the volume of State Papers published every year, except those to which Her Majesty's name was attached as one of the high contracting Powers. Copies of other treaties could only be obtained by the cumbrous process of a Motion for an Address. He had selected this treaty because it was one still in operation, and because Her Majesty's Government was, to a certain extent, a party to it, inasmuch as a distinct allusion to it was made in the second article of the treaty signed at Vienna in 1854. The Principalities at the present moment occupied the attention of a Commission; their form of government was a subject of discussion, and so strong was the difference of opinion which prevailed on this point that he had read but to-day, in a letter from one of those intelligent correspondents whose letters appeared in the London journals, that Austria was said to be prepared to resist by force the junction of the Principalities. All these things rendered it desirable that this treaty should be readily accessible in the library of the House, as the course of events would probably lead to frequent references to it.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, a Copy of the Treaty concluded by His Majesty the Emperor of Austria with the Sublime Porte, on the l4th day of June, 1854, relative to the military occupation of the principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia."
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONobserved, that the particular treaty referred to had already been laid before Parliament, and it would only be putting the public to additional expense to reprint it. With regard to the general question raised by the noble Lord, it was undoubtedly proper that Parliament should be made acquainted with all treaties containing engagements on the part of the British Crown; but with regard to engagements entered into by other Powers between themselves the Government had no official knowledge, and such treaties were not laid before Parliament because they did not bear on any action of the British nation. But if any particular treaty were concluded between

  595
  two foreign Powers, which by its nature was thought to bear in some degree on the policy of England, then, if any Member moved for its production, the Secretary of State applied to the contracting Powers for an official copy, which was laid before Parliament. He apprehended that the noble Lord desired some arrangements to be made by which all international documents of interest should he collected and placed in the library. That might be done, no doubt, if Parliament desired it, and assigned a sufficient remuneration to some responsible person for performing the duty; hut it was a question for the House itself to determine. Under the direction of the Foreign Office there was a particular collection made and printed for sale, containing not only treaties, but all European documents of interest. There was a volume of these for each year. This work was undertaken some years ago, and was continued backwards and forwards from the period of its commencement and a large number of volumes had been published. It was a work of great labour and required great research, the documents being collected from every source. The work was in the hands of a very intelligent gentleman, and, as far as it went, he believed it might be relied on for perfect accuracy. He had only to repeat that if the House wished to have a collection of its own of treaties and documents of international interest, that was a matter which the House itself must determine.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, that in the library of the House there was a great want of documents of international interest, but he was sure the noble Lord, in making his Motion, meant no reflection on the gentleman engaged in the duties of the library, for he did not think that there was any library managed better than the library of the House. What had fallen from the noble Lord at the head of the Government was apart from the question. The collection of the Foreign Office was in every respect satisfactory, except that it was always in a state of great arrear. Now, instead of the House appointing an officer of its own at some expense to originate a work, if a representation were made to the Foreign Office to show a little more energy in the production of their valuable collection, and if that office were to transmit a copy of each of its publications to their library (paying whatever additional remuneration might be just to the officer engaged), the object of the noble Lord
  596
  who made the present Motion would be accomplished.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

THE COMMITTEE ON THE BANK ACTS.

  NOMINATION OF COMMITTEE.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER rose to move the nomination of the Committee on the Bank Acts. The right hon. Gentleman said, I will trouble the House with a few remarks relating to the nature of the Committee I propose to appoint, namely, a Committee of Secrecy. The actual difference between an ordinary Committee and a Committee of Secrecy is not, in fact, very wide. It is competent for a Select Committee—and it often exercises the power—to exclude the public during the reception of evidence. All Select Committees exclude the public during their deliberations, which constitute the only part of their proceedings of which an authentic report by a shorthand writer is not preserved. To a Committee of the sort I now propose it is not probable that the public would be admitted during the examination of witnesses; but a complete report of the evidence would be taken, and the Committee would have the power of laying it on the table of the House. The only difference between a Select Committee, not admitting the public during the examination of witnesses, and a Committee of Secrecy is this—that it is the privilege of Members not belonging to the Committee to be present at an ordinary Select Committee, if they so think fit, while the public are excluded. But, if the Committee be a Committee of Secrecy, then Members unconnected with the Committee have not that privilege. That is the whole extent of the difference. In looking through the series of Committees appointed to inquire into the Bank Charter and other questions of a similar nature, I find it to have been the invariable practice to constitute them Committees of Secrecy. In 1819, the Committee on the expediency of the Bank resuming cash payments was a Secret Committee. In 1832, a Secret Committee was appointed to inquire into the expediency of renewing the Bank Charter. In 1836, the Committee on Joint-stock Banks was also secret, and the Committee on banks of issue, in 1840, and that on commercial distress, in 1848, were likewise Committees of Secrecy. With respect to the arrangements between the Government and the Bank of England there is nothing which, as far as I am

  597
  aware, might not be published to the whole world, and, as far as Government is concerned, there is no reason to wish that any departure should take place from the usual mode of examination in Committee. But the House must be aware that, in a Committee of this sort, questions may arise affecting the credit of particular commercial establishments, with respect to which it might not be desirable that any publicity should occur; and that, I apprehend, is the principal reason why this course has been invariably pursued with respect to Committees of this kind. Therefore, I have thought it desirable to adhere to what seems to have been the invariable practice, and I propose that this should be a Committee of Secrecy. With respect to the Members of the Committee, it has been my study to propose as fair a list of names as possible, and one which would insure a complete and searching investigation of the matter referred to the Committee. I think the House will admit that there are scarcely any discussions so disagreeable to the feelings as those which arise with respect to the preference of one Member to another for appointment on a Committee, and if the House should be of opinion that, on the whole, the list I propose is a fair one, I trust that, without going into the merits of other Members, it will be disposed to adopt the list I submit. Two Gentlemen—the hon. Members for Wallingford and Perthshire (Mr. Malins and Mr. Stirling)—have intimated their inability to serve on the Committee, and I shall therefore give notice of a Motion to substitute two other names instead of theirs. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving—
  "That the Committee be a Committee of Secrecy, and do consist of twenty-two Members—namely, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Disraeli, Sir J. Graham, Mr. Spooner, Mr. Gladstone, Mr. G. A. Hamilton, Mr. Cardwell, Mr. Wilson, Mr. Hildyard, Mr. Glyn, Mr. Beckett, Mr. Hankey, Mr. Pollard-Urquhart, Mr. J. L. Ricardo, Sir C. Wood, Mr. Cayley, Sir F. Baring, Mr. M. T. Smith, Mr. Wilkinson, and Mr. Fergus."
  MR. PEACOCKEsaid, he protested against the fairness of the proposed Committee. There were opinions upon this subject entertained by two schools, if he might call them so, which were diametrically opposed to each other. There was the school which wished to preserve the Bank Act in its present integrity, and which had on its side the high authority of Lord Overstone. There was the school which wished to in-
  598
  troduce considerable modifications in the Act, and which had on its side the still higher authority of Mr. Fullerton, Mr. Tooke, and Mr. Wilson. The last-mentioned gentleman, indeed, had almost deluged the country with the variety of pamphlets, articles, and publications, which he had issued on this subject during the last fourteen years. On looking at the names that composed the Committee, he (Mr. Peacocke) found one or two members of what he might call the Birmingham school, and he found one or two of what he might call the Overstone school. He found the names of some Members who, he believed, had never expressed any opinion on this subject, if, indeed, they entertained any. But he did not find a single member of what he might call the school of economists, which had the very high authority of Messrs. Tooke, Fullerton, and Wilson. He listened to a great portion of the not very lively or instructive debate on this subject the other evening, and of the portion which he had not the felicity of hearing he read a report the next day. He found that during the whole of the debate there was only one hon. Gentleman who broached doctrines at all approaching to that school. That hon. Gentleman, who was the hon. Member for the Wick Burghs (Mr. Laing), spoke most ably, but his name was not on the Committee. Perhaps, however, he (Mr. Peacocke) might be told, as he had been reminded by his right hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, that the name of the hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. James Wilson) was upon the Committee; but he must take the liberty of asking whether he was a Wilsonite, for he was probably no more a Wilsonite than Wilkes was a Wilkite. He (Mr. Peacocke) was rather inclined to believe that the hon. Member for Westbury was inclined, like Wilkes, to repudiate his disciples, and he therefore begged to ask whether it was really his intention to take his place upon the Committee; and, if he should do so, whether he would do so as the author of Capital and Currency, or as the Secretary for the Treasury; because, with the single exception of the hon. Gentleman himself, there was no representative of the school of which he was once the apostle, but of which he (Mr. Peacocke) believed he was no longer a disciple. If there was one question more than another to which the attention of the Committee ought to be directed it was that of country issues. On looking over the

  599
  debate of the other evening he found that that subject was alluded to by only one Gentleman—namely, his hon. Friend the Member for Inverness-shire (Mr. H. J. Baillie). But that hon. Gentleman's name was not on the Committee. There was another most important point. He believed that it was a very general opinion that it was the intention of the Bank Act that the bullion in the issue department should be exclusively for the purpose of securing the convertibility of the note, and that the holder of a bank-note should have a special lien upon it. Now, if the Bank should break, was the holder of such a note to be paid pari passu with every other creditor? That, the Chancellor of the Exchequer must admit, was a very important question for the consideration of the Committee, but not one of those hon. Gentlemen whose names had been proposed had alluded to it. And yet he (Mr. Peacocke) was told that this was a fair and impartial Committee for the purposes of inquiry. He declined to propose any alteration of it. He thought that the play was amusing as it stood, and he did not wish to interfere with the performance or the distribution of the parts in this most solemn comedy.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, he begged to repeat the appeal which he made the other evening to the Government, that they should introduce a Bill at once, without the intervention of a Committee, as he thought that all the information that might be needed could be furnished during the discussion of the Bill in its several stages in that House. The Government had matured their opinion on the subject, and he thought it was most unadvisable to appoint a Committee to investigate a subject with respect to which the Government was prepared to undertake, on its own responsibility, the introduction of a Bill. He (Mr. Disraeli) was not disposed to divide the House upon the appointment of a Committee unless he should receive more encouragement than he then anticipated. But there was another point which was scarcely less important which he would urge upon the Government, and that was, the expediency of not only changing the names, but reducing the size of the Committee, which was unwieldy. All the opinions that ought to be represented, might be represented by a Committee exactly half the size. Why not have a Committee of eleven, as they chose elevens at cricket?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, it appeared to be the general
  600
  wish of the House that a Select Committee should be appointed on this subject; and, although he thought there was no necessity for one, yet he would yield to that desire. Even if he had determined to introduce a Bill in the first instance, he believed that the majority of the House would have referred it to a Select Committee. There was a general desire, both within the House and out of doors, that the subject should undergo investigation before a Committee. On referring to former Committees upon this subject, he found that they were generally composed of twenty-six or twenty-eight. The last Committee was composed of twenty-six. In proposing, therefore, a Committee of twenty-two, he did not choose an unreasonable number. The many applications which had been made to him by hon. Members desirous of being appointed on the Committee induced him to believe that it was the general wish that the Committee should be composed of at least twenty-two Members.
  MR. HADFIELDcomplained of the absence from the list of every hon. Gentlemen representing the manufacturing districts in the north of England.
  MR. TITEexpressed his approval of an inquiry by a Select Committee as a preliminary step to the introduction of a Bill.
  Then it was Ordered, That the Committee be a Committee of Secrecy, and do consist of twenty-two Members:—Committee nominated:—The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. DISRAELI, Sir JAMES GRAHAM, Mr. SPOONER, Mr. GLADSTONE, Mr. GEORGE ALEXANDER HAMILTON, Mr. CARDWELL, Mr. WILSON, Mr. HILDYARD, Mr. GLYN, Mr. BECKETT, Mr. HANKEY.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That MR. POLLARD-URQUHART be one other Member of the said Committee."
  MR. GROGANproposed the substitution of Mr. Vance's name for that of Mr. Urquhart, on the ground that the latter represented an agricultural, while the former represented a mercantile constituency.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the name of "Mr. POLLARD-URQUHART," and insert the name of "Mr. VANCE," instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the name of 'Mr. POLLARD-URQUHART' stand part of the Question.
  After a few words from Mr. NEWDEGATE,
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERthought that it was not the first time that the hon. Gentleman had made a

  601
  Motion of a similar nature with respect to his colleague; and he also thought that his colleague had made a similar Motion with regard to himself. He himself would adhere to the names which he had set down, and, as among those names were the names of the hon. Member for the University of Dublin, an accomplished financier, and of the hon. Member for Westmeath, who had on previous occasions exhibited considerable acquaintance with the subject, he did not think that Irish commercial interests were not fairly represented.
  MR. VANCEdisclaimed any intention of placing himself in antagonism with the hon. Member for Westmeath, but at the same time he begged, in reply to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to state that he had never proposed his colleague to serve on any Committee, and he hoped that his hon. Colleague would now withdraw his Motion.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question, "That Mr. POLLARD-URQUHART be one other Member of the said Committee," put, and agreed to.
  Mr. JOHN LEWIS RICARDO, Sir CHARLES WOOD, Mr. CAYLEY, Sir FRANCIS BARING, Mr. MARTIN TUCKER SMITH, Mr. WILKINSON, and Mr. FERGUS, nominated other Members of the said Committee:—Power to send for persons, papers, and records. Five to be the quorum.
  The House adjourned at Twelve o'clock.

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Lord Talbot of Malahide in Ireland, being created Lord Talbot de Malahide of the United Kingdom.
PUBLIC BILL.—1a Dissenters' Relief.

AFFAIRS OF GREECE.—QUESTION.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE,seeing his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his place, had a question to put respecting a matter which had appeared in the public papers, namely, the intended withdrawal of our troops from the kingdom of Greece, and an arrangement said to have been made with the Government of that country with respect to the debts and the management of its finances. He wished to know if the Government would lay upon the table the correspondence on the subject, so as to inform the public on what was done with regard to it? The Government was justified in withdrawing the troops, as the troops had only been sent for the purpose of enforcing the neutrality of Greece; but the two transactions appeared to have been mixed up together. No doubt we ought to have some control over the finances of that country, as it was our debtor, and we ought to take care of our debts; yet if such an arrangement was carried too far, it would involve us in difficulties.
THE EARL OF CLARENDONsaid, he

511
was glad to have an opportunity of answering the question put to him by his noble Friend. Their Lordships were aware that the troops were sent to Greece in consequence of the spirit of hostility which had manifested itself in that country towards the Western Powers, and when a successful attempt had been made to incite insurrection in the neighbouring provinces of Turkey. Upon these occurrences taking place it was agreed by Her Majesty's Government and the Government of France to send a small force to the Piræus in order to check proceedings of which we had so much reason to complain, and which acted, of course, as a powerful diversion in favour of Russia, by engaging the attention and arms of Turkey in the restoration of order within her own territories. That measure was quite successful. The troops never have moved from the Piræus, and, the war being over, they would be withdrawn. But in the course of the last autumn the Greek Government laid before the three protecting Powers a statement of the revenue and expenditure of Greece, offering to pay a small annual instalment of the interest on the loan guaranteed by those three Powers, and which interest has, in point of fact, been exclusively paid by them ever since the loan was made. The Greek Government, however, at the same time suggested that the protecting Powers might prefer, instead of receiving this small instalment of interest, to allow it to be applied to the internal improvement and the development of the resources of the country. Her Majesty's Government, however, could not agree to that proposal; first, because it was by no means clear that by a better administration the revenues of the country might not be increased; and, secondly, because, although the latter might be profitably applied to developing the internal resources of Greece, Her Majesty's Government could not sanction the application in the way proposed of money which belonged to the treasury of England. But, as the Greek Government challenged inquiry respecting the accuracy of the financial statement transmitted by them, Her Majesty's Government proposed that a Commission, consisting of the Ministers of the three protecting Powers at Athens, should inquire into the financial condition of Greece. The statement was laid before Her Majesty's Government as creditors, and as creditors they proposed to inquire into the accuracy of it. The proposal was made to the Rus-
512
sian Government, who concurred in it, and expressed their wish to take part in the Commission. Some little delay had arisen in respect to the attributes of the Commission, and its duration; but the Commission itself had been accepted in the most frank and cordial manner by the Greek Government. He had also to say that this proposal had been made in a perfectly friendly spirit to the Greek Government, and with no intention whatever of interfering in the internal affairs of their kingdom, or that the Commission should last beyond the time for which it was established. He (the Earl of Clarendon) believed that the protecting Powers were about to render essential service to Greece by the advice and assistance which the Commissioners would be able to render to her Government, and it was expected that the Greek Government might in this way have it in their power to effect certain administrative and financial reforms, which single-handed, they might possibly not be able to achieve. He believed the Commission would be established in a few days, and he hoped it would tend eventually to put an end to the contests for influence which had so often taken place between foreign Powers—contests which did no service to the Powers engaged, and which only distracted and wounded the public feeling of the country which was so unfortunate as to be the subject of them. He must say that the discretion and judgment of the English and French Ministers had done much towards carrying out the policy of their Governments in this respect, and he hoped that English and French parties at Athens no longer existed. The papers on this subject consisted chiefly of the correspondence with the French and Russian Governments respecting the Commission; and as that Commission was not yet absolutely established, it would, he thought, be premature to place them on their Lordships' table.

DISSENTERS' RELIEF BILL.

  PRESENTED. FIRST READING.
  LORD BROUGHAM presented a Bill for the further relief of Dissenters. He said it was the one referred to by the Bishop of Oxford in the debate at the last meeting of the House on the Church Discipline and other Bills of the Lord Chancellor, and was the same with the one he had presented the Session before the last, only that a clause was added on the right rev. Prelate's suggestion, whose absence, he was sorry to say, was owing to a great

  513
  domestic calamity. That proviso was intended to prevent the possibility of the Bill being supposed to affect in any way the indelible character of holy orders. The only operation of the proposed law would be to free Dissenters who had once been Clergymen of the Church, and now were united to dissenting congregations either as ministers or otherwise from Church censure, and from all civil or temporal disabilities, while it also deprived them of all clerical rights or immunities. He hoped the Bill, being very short and simple, and having been carefully drawn, would not be found to fall within the scope of his noble and learned Friend's objections, so well founded in general, to the manner in which Acts of Parliament are framed. Of the course proposed, the having an examiner to prepare and superintend the passing of Bills, he approved, so far as to say that it was a step in the right direction. But he conceived it to be insufficient; first, for the reason he had so often assigned, that a single person is wholly inadequate to the task, not on account of the labour being so great, but because a single mind applied to detect errors or note oversights is insufficient; there must be several, in order to afford good security against such slips. Therefore a Board is required as he had proposed in his Resolutions of 1847. But here, as on every other question connected with legal improvement, we are led to one and the same conclusion—the necessity of a Minister of Justice, or department charged with the whole of that great subject. He understood from the Votes that his right hon. Friend (Mr. Napier) was to bring the question again before the other House this evening, and he heartily wished him success. He had so often urged the matter on the attention of their Lordships that he should not detain them with further remarks upon it at present than to mention the fact that when, as President of the Law Amendment Society, he had communicated to Sir R. Peel, then at the head of the Government, the memorial of the Society, strongly recommending the appointment of a Minister of Justice, the answer returned was not merely courteous but it indicated that the proposal would forthwith be taken into favourable consideration, and that the memorial was, or would immediately be, communicated to Lord Lyndhurst, then Chancellor.
  Bill, for the further relief of Dissenters, read la.

SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS.

  SELECT COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY rose to move the appointment of a Select Committee to consider the question of Secondary Punishments. It was not his intention, in moving for the Committee, to go into that much-disputed subject; but he could not help expressing his satisfaction that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary had so greatly altered his opinions since last Session. When, last Session, he (the Marquess of Salisbury) brought the subject before their Lordships, he was told that the ticket-of-leave system was perfectly successful, and that the Reports which were about to be issued would show its success; noble Lords opposite, in fact, then treated the matter as an imaginary grievance. Since that time, apparently, valuable information had been obtained, and great alterations of opinion had taken place. The Secretary of State had thought it right to introduce a Bill on the subject, although, judging of its tenor by the right hon. Gentleman's speech, he feared it would be an inefficient one, and would require much amendment before it could pass their Lordships' House. The Home Secretary had, however, introduced another measure, from which he (the Marquess of Salisbury) expected good results—that on reformatory schools. There was another subject which had excited great attention; it was that of prison discipline. Lord Denman had said that the object of punishment was to deter from crime; but our punishments had an opposite effect. The system of criminal law which we followed encouraged crime rather than deterred from it. In this view the system of military prisons was much better than that of civil prisons. In the former the diet was much more severe than that allowed in the latter. In the military prisons the diet is thirty ounces of solid food per diem and half a pint of milk, no meat. In the civil prisons, for instance Millbank, the diet is given to be forty ounces of solid food, of which a considerable portion is meat, besides one pint of soup, one of gruel, and one of cocoa. In the civil prisons there was sometimes thirty-eight ounces of bread daily per head, and the allowance sometimes even reached forty ounces. In point of fact, as regarded persons imprisoned for crimes, they fared better than common labourers. It appeared, however, that the I system was not favourable to health, for the returns show that since 1845 the per-

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  centage of cases of sickness in military prisons had been only 16 1–10th, while in civil prisons it averaged 70 per cent. That the system adopted in military prisons had a more deterring effect than that of civil prisons appeared from the fact that the recommittals to the former were fewer than those to the latter. He did not think that it was in the power of the local authorities to remedy the existing evils; it rested entirely with the executive Government. The noble Marquess (who was most imperfectly heard throughout) was understood to advocate a plan for keeping prisoners for long terms on public works during the latter part of their sentences; and to accompany sentences for short terms with a more severe punishment than mere detention. The noble Marquess, in conclusion, moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Question of Secondary Punishments."
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he regretted not to be able to accede to the Motion which the noble Marquess had submitted to the House; but he thought that the noble Marquess had hardly made out a case at this time for the Committee which he had proposed. Last year Committees of both Houses sat upon the general question of secondary punishments, and the course which they adopted upon that occasion appeared to him to be a very judicious one; for, instead of both examining precisely the same witnesses and going over exactly the same topics, they came to an understanding by which one Committee took up one part of the subject while the other devoted itself to another part. In that manner their Lordships obtained much valuable information upon the subject of transportation generally; while before the Committee of the other House very little evidence, comparatively speaking, was given upon that point, and the witnesses were examined principally upon the questions of punishment, penal servitude, prison discipline, and labour on the public works. Under these circumstances he thought that it was not necessary for their Lordships to appoint a Committee at this time to go over either of the grounds which were then inquired into. The noble Marquess apparently did not wish that the Committee should investigate the general question of transportation; but his principal arguments were based upon the condition of different prisons and upon the superiority of the results obtained in military prisons over those obtained in civil prisons. The noble
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  Marquess referred, for example, to the lower scale of dietary and to the less frequent recommitments in the military prisons; but there were great differences in all the circumstances between the persons who were committed to military and those who were confined in civil prisons. In the former the imprisonment was almost always for short terms, and it was not until a prisoner had been confined some time that the low diet began to tell upon his health. So also with regard to recommittals—there was an obvious difference between the two classes of prisoners. In one case the prisoners met with persons belonging to the same criminal "profession," as he might almost call it; and the inevitable consequence whenever they associated was that they became hardened, and having no work to go to when they came out they were extremely likely to be recommitted. The soldier was differently situated in this respect, both with regard to the contamination which he met with in gaol, and his employment when he came out. Moreover, it was probable that the statistics of comparison were not altogether to be relied upon, because the recommittal of soldiers might not be so accurately reported as was the case with civilians, owing to regiments being frequently moved from the mother country to the various colonies, which made it more difficult to trace the men. The noble Marquess had spoken with great candour and satisfaction of the measures which the Government had taken on this subject, and he (Earl Granville) was happy to perceive that it had been favourably received by the country; but, whether good or bad, it was certainly the most complete measure yet proposed. For any practical result there was no comparison between a proposal of that kind and an inquiry without any definite object. He was not prepared, after the experience of past years, to give any distinct pledge as to the arrival of Bills from the other House; but it was the firm determination of the Government that a Bill which related to a subject of so much importance, and which occupied the public mind to so great an extent, should be proceeded with in the House of Commons as speedily as was practicable, and should be sent up to their Lordships in reasonable time for their consideration. With regard to the employment of convicts on public works, he could assure the noble Marquess that it had not been lost sight of by the Government; on the contrary, it had been most carefully

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  considered; but unless the feeling of the House was almost unanimous, he should be inclined to request his noble Friend not to press his Motion for the appointment of a Committee.
  EARL STANHOPEsaid, that, as the person who moved the appointment of the Committee of last year, he felt bound to make a few remarks on the present occasion. He fully acknowledged the praiseworthy objects which the noble Marquis had in view; but, at the same time, it appeared to him that those objects would be hindered rather than promoted by the appointment of a Committee. Inquiry was in its place last year; but the time for action had now arrived, and the appointment of a Committee at the present juncture would be welcome only to such persons as were not desirous of applying a remedy to the great and urgent evils of the present system. It would afford them a pretext for standing still, and taking no measures at all. Last year there had sat a Committee of their Lordships' House; there had also been one appointed by the other House, and both exerted themselves for some time to inquire into the whole subject. The Committee of their Lordships went fully into the colonial branch of the subject, and he (Earl Stanhope) was glad to observe that Sir George Grey, in his speech the other night, stated that the Government had derived considerable advantage from the information elicited by that Committee. As truly stated by the noble Earl opposite, the Committee of the House of Commons went fully into another branch of the subject—namely, the question of prison discipline, or the domestic branch of the subject. Taking both Committees together, and not looking at either singly, he thought they afforded an amply sufficient mass of information, and that their Lordships would only perplex and encumber themselves if, after the investigation of last year, they were to resolve that another inquiry was necessary. For these reasons he hoped that the noble Marquis would not press his Motion. Before he concluded he felt bound to state with how much pleasure he had heard the plan of the Government. He did not of course pledge himself to details; he had not seen the Bill, and spoke only from the general outline which had been presented to Parliament; but the measure appeared to him just and wise, framed on sound principles, and likely to afford satisfaction to the Colonies and
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  give protection to society at home. One great difficulty had always been that few persons had been willing to look at the question as it affected both the colonies and the mother country. Chairmen of quarter sessions and magistrates engaged in the administration of the criminal law were apt to devote their attention exclusively to the home branch, while other persons—for example, the late Sir William Molesworth, whom he desired to mention with all respect—confined their attention to the Colonies. But no satisfactory measure could be proposed which did not take into consideration both the interests of the Colonies and those of the mother country. He thought that the measure of the Government embraced these two points, and that, while it consulted the wishes and feelings of the colonists, it remedied the evils which had been so much and so deservedly complained of at home. He hoped that there would be as little delay as possible in passing the measure through the other House, and, when it was before their Lordships he should not feel debarred by the general approbation which he now expressed from proposing or supporting such Amendments or alterations as he might think desirable. A kind of taunt had been thrown out by the noble Marquess on the change which had taken place in the opinions of Sir G. Grey respecting this question. For his (Earl Stanhope's) part, there was, as it happened, no change in his own opinions to avow. From first to last he had been a friend, a zealous friend, to transportation upon an improved system. But at the same time, there was, he fearlessly confessed, no question upon which he would have felt less ashamed to avow a change of opinion than upon this of secondary punishment, in which so much depended upon the statistics and facts which the carrying out of any principle might furnish. He therefore should not hold himself precluded from proposing or supporting any Amendment, which upon full consideration might appear to him calculated to render the measure more effective. Meanwhile he trusted that the noble Marquess would not press his Motion for the appointment of the Committee.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he must support the Motion for a Committee, for he thought farther inquiry was needed. The two Reports to which Lord Granville had alluded did not touch the point to which the noble Marquess had drawn the attention of the House. One of them dwelt

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  mainly upon the higher kinds of secondary punishment; the other, upon transportation, considered in a geographical point of view. He could not admit that the proposal which the Home Secretary announced the other night was a complete measure. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman, to judge from the reports of it which had appeared in the newspapers, wanted a comprehensive treatment of the subject. It dealt with the worst class of criminals, who were to be sentenced to some kind of perpetual imprisonment; with the second class, who were to undergo various periods of penal servitude; and with a class placed between these two; but the great bulk of our criminals—those who received short sentences—were wholly and entirely untouched. It seemed to him to be an ingenious alteration and shifting of the periods rather than of the nature of punishment. Nor had he succeeded in ascertaining from the speech what were the intentions of the Government with regard to the ticket-of-leave system. He should like to know whether it was to be continued as at present, whether the operation of the ticket of leave was to be extended to other countries, or what other changes or modifications the Government designed to introduce. Certain he was that the present system could not continue much longer. It was as bad for the community at large as for the criminal himself: for the community, because it afforded no security against lawlessness and violence; and for the criminal, because the so-called advantages which it conferred upon him operated to his injury. He felt no sentimental interest in criminals, but he pitied those unfortunate men, who were made outcasts from society by their own actions, but whom the present state of the law maintained in their degraded condition. It was unfair to hold out to them inducements, which could rarely be realised, to lead them on by the present system of rewards and punishments only that they should find themselves worse off without the prison walls than when they were within it; it was unfair that by the actual operation of the existing system they would be placed in a position in which they had no alternative between starvation and crime. The 1,600 or 1,700 who were discharged on tickets of leave were but as a drop in the bucket, compared to the 60,000 or 70,000 who were sentenced to various periods of punishment every year. With regard to what had been said by the
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  noble Marquess as to the food of priśoners, he must say he was surprised to read in the Western Australian despatches laid on the table last year, that the surgeon attributed disease among the prisoners to excessive food and consequent repletion. He believed that where exception was taken to short sentences it generally applied to juvenile delinquents, for, there could be no doubt that in the case of boys committed to prison, a very short sentence, accompanied with easy prison discipline, took away all the wholesome fear and shame that should attach to imprisonment. But, in a question of this kind, the great difficulty was to steer clear of excessive lenity on the one hand and excessive severity on the other; and any measure that proposed to deal with this question ought to combine reformation for the offender, punishment for the offence, and security for society. He hoped that in the settlement of this question due attention would be paid to that most important point, the association and classification of criminals. The existing system was attended with many undoubted evils, and against the various systems proposed there were many great objections, but he thought it was worthy of consideration whether or not a mode of classification, according to age, should not be resorted to. He rejoiced in the prospect of a partial return to transportation, which in the case of old offenders could not, in his opinion, ever be dispensed with. The old system of transportation, or rather compulsory emigration, by which convicts were assigned to the governor of a colony, and by him re-assigned as labourers to the colonists, had been attended with the happiest results; and he was therefore glad to find that the Government had determined upon a recurrence, however partial, to the system of transportation.
  LORD CAMPBELLbegged to say, with all respect for the noble Marquess, that he quite agreed with the noble Earl (Earl Granville) who told them that the time was come for action and not for inquiry. Prison discipline was no doubt highly important; but it was a subject which they had been considering for many years, and there had been Committees on that question specifically. In the two Committees which sat last year, one of this and one of the other House, the whole subject was thoroughly investigated. He himself had the honour of being examined last year before the Committee of the House of Commons on secondary punishments, and he would take

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  on himself to say that the subject was very fully inquired into. Consequently he regarded the refusal of the Committee by the noble Earl as a proof of the sincerity of the Government in the steps they had proposed elsewhere to take. If they had not wished to act, they would naturally have supported the present Motion, and thus obtained an excuse for further delay. The country was now in a most alarming position in reference to this matter. Never before in the history of England had society been in such a predicament; never before had all those who had been convicted of crime been retained in the country, and liable at any time to be let loose upon the country to renew their depredations. In former times the remedy for such an evil was to hang all those who had been convicted. That was a very summary and a very effectual mode of disposing of criminals. To such an extent was it resorted to in the reign of Henry VIII. that about 1,000 criminals were hanged every year; all those who were convicted of stealing property of the value of 12 d. were immediately strung up. In the 16th century, when colonisation and emigration began, transportation was the common sentence, and it was the practice to send criminals to Barbadoes, Virginia, and the American plantations. During the reigns of the Stuarts, William and Mary, Queen Anne, George I., George II., and even part of the reign of George III., criminals were still sent to the American plantations, and the country got rid of them as soon as they had been sentenced by the Judge to be transported. When the country lost the American colonies, it was for a time placed in difficulty; but, then, fortunately, there sprang up the colony of Botany Bay, and from that time until three or four years ago convicts were got rid of by being sent to Australia. But now, either by bad luck or from mismanagement, they had lost that resource—a resource which he knew was the envy of the whole continent of Europe. Transportation was at an end, and their criminals when released had no means of earning an honest livelihood, and often had really no resource but that of returning to their former pursuits. That was a state of things which was most lamentable. A peaceful citizen going to bed at night had no security that his house would not be broken into before the morning; and there was no safety for him in going along the streets, as he was liable to be garotted. Such a state
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  of things called for, and he trusted would receive, immediate attention on the part of the Government and the Legislature. He was not acquainted with the details of the measure which had been introduced in another place, but unless it provided for the deportation of convicts, of whose reformation there was no reasonable hope in this country, he would not give it his support. Any measure which the public safety required would be fully justified, and he did hope that all the energies of the Government would be concentrated on that point. In his opinion, transportation was the only punishment which afforded a reasonable chance for the reformation of criminals, and he hoped that the Government would direct their attention specially to the means of continuing that punishment. It was supposed by some persons that the crime which now unfortunately prevailed was attributable to the system of ticket of leave; but he was satisfied that it arose from the diminution of the punishment of transportation, and that if the issue of tickets of leave were to cease to-morrow there would be little improvement in the condition of the country. His own opinion was that when a conviction took place upon satisfactory evidence, and when the Judge thought it his duty to pass the most severe sentence allowed by law, although the criminal might turn up his eyes and pretend to be pious and penitent, the punishment ought to be rigidly enforced.
  EARL FITZWILLIAMsaid, he had never heard a speech which was a greater satire on the administration of justice in this country than that of his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice. The noble and learned Lord told the House that the country was never before in such a position as it was at present; that no man could go to bed at night without expecting to be the victim of an outrage before he rose in the morning. Could there be a more lamentable state of things, especially stated as they were upon such high authority? This country had formerly excited the envy of foreign nations on account of its possessing vast colonies beyond the Atlantic, which enabled it to dispose of that portion of the population which had become outcasts at home. He (Earl Fitzwilliam) trusted that the measure now before the other House of Parliament might have a beneficial effect; but he was bound to express it as his decided opinion that the question of secondary punishments would never be solved by man under the present

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  system of legislation. Nothing was thought of but punishing crime, and relieving the community by the exercise of severity to criminals. That was beginning, in his opinion, at the wrong end. Legislation should begin by teaching men not to commit crime, not by punishing them; and if Parliament thought that in providing punishments for criminals, and not providing education, it was doing its duty, he (Earl Fitzwilliam) thought that Parliament would find itself most egregiously mistaken. Parliament might endeavour to do its duty in the line at present chalked out for it on the subject; but if it did not go beyond that line—if it did not provide sufficient education for the unprotected portion of the community—he had no hesitation in saying that Parliament would fall far short of what the exigency of the case demanded, and what the urgency of the age required.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNONsaid, he did not think such an inquiry as that which was proposed by the noble Marquess could at all impede the progress of the measure which had been introduced in the other House, and he regretted that the Government had not acceded to it. The noble Marquess had mentioned some facts which deserved their Lordships' serious attention. He had stated that in some cases the dietary of the poorhouse was by no means so good as that of the gaol. He (Viscount Dungannon) remembered that some time since a comparison was made between the dietary of the county gaol of Flintshire and that of the workhouse of Flint, which showed that the inmates of the gaol certainly had the advantage. The noble Marquess had referred to the condition of prisoners when they were discharged after having undergone confinement on the separate system. During the recess he (Viscount Dungannon) visited the convict station at Spike Island, in the county of Cork, and he was informed that three or four prisoners who had been received there from a prison at Dublin, which was, he believed, conducted upon a system similar to that adopted at Pentonville, were in such a condition that they were unfitted for any sort of employment for a considerable length of time. The nature of the punishment they had undergone had utterly suspended, and indeed almost destroyed, their powers of mind. Surely, punishment was never intended to affect the health of criminals to such an extent as to render them useless members of
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  society. The noble Earl who last spoke had said they were beginning at the wrong end, and had urged the importance of imbuing the minds of the rising generation with such principles as would restrain them from the commission of crime; but he (Viscount Dungannon) would ask whether there ever was a period in the history of this country when greater attention was paid to the education of the community than at the present time? He was convinced that there were very few persons desirous of receiving instruction, who were unable to obtain it. He had heard with great satisfaction the Statement of the Lord Chief Justice, that he would oppose the Bill which was now before the other House if provision were not made for the deportation of all incorrigible criminals. With regard to the system of tickets of leave, he also concurred in the suggestion, that one of the conditions upon which such tickets were granted should be that the recipients should not go within 100 miles of the places where their crimes had been committed, because, when convicts returned to the scene of their wicked exploits, they were almost forced, by the impossibility of obtaining employment, to resume their former pursuits, and they frequently seduced the young and inexperienced to follow their bad example. Without any reference to the question whether the repentence of those men was sincere or not, the public safety demanded that the experiment should be made elsewhere than in this country. He was sorry to find that the Bill introduced by the Government in the other House did not contain any provision in reference to tickets of leave, but he hoped that before it came up to their Lordships that omission would be remedied.
  LORD RAVENSWORTHsaid, he rose to draw the attention of the House to two points in connection with the question—one of which he had given notice of a Motion on—namely, the construction of harbours of refuge on the north-east coast of England, and the employment of convict labour in their construction. He was, in the first place, disappointed to learn that the Government had not made any provision in the Bill introduced by the Home Secretary for the employment of convict labour on useful public works in this country. The necessity of harbours of refuge was proved by the fact that numerous deputations, representing the greatest amount of trade in the north of England, had already waited on the Government to induce them to pro-

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  ceed with their construction, and that every year numbers of ships, and lives, and a vast amount of property were lost on that coast. Last year, within three days, £100,000 worth of property had been lost by wrecked ships, and a great many lives lost. He (Lord Ravensworth) pronounced no opinion in favour of any particular locality; but he knew that harbours of refuge on that coast were greatly needed for the preservation of life and property, and he was satisfied that convict labour could be employed upon their construction with the greatest advantage to the general community. As regarded the employment of convict labour, he had been favoured by a noble and learned Lord (Lord Wensleydale), who approved of the suggestions which it contained, with a letter on secondary punishments, in which it was suggested that, as the great bulk of the criminal population of the country should remain in the country, it became necessary to provide a comprehensive scheme for the employment of their labour, and it then suggested the establishment of depôts in different parts of the country to receive that population, and keep them apart from their old associates, and that it would be desirable to employ them upon harbours of refuge and upon drainage, especially in Scotland and Ireland. The first object, therefore, of the writer's suggestion for the employment of the criminal population was the construction of harbours of refuge; and there could be no question that, under proper regulations, such employment could be made highly beneficial to the convict, by accumulating his wages against his discharge, as well as highly beneficial to the public, by removing the men from the temptation to relapse into crime. The only difficulty that he (Lord Ravensworth) had heard started was the expense. But ought such a consideration to be suffered to weigh with a great commercial country like England in an object of such importance as the absorption and possible reformation of its criminal population? The reduction made in the Naval and Military Estimates amounted to far more than would be required for the purpose of constructing harbours of refuge; but in time of war nothing was thought of pouring millions into that absorbing gulf; whereas in time of peace there was hesitation about a few thousands for one of the most important objects that could be conceived. It was not reasonable that such an object as the profitable disposal of the criminal
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  population of the country and the salvation of life and property by means of harbours of refuge should be rejected on the narrow ground of pounds, shillings, and pence. A mere modicum of the reduction in the Estimates would be quite sufficient for the purpose. But there were many modes of lightening, if not of defraying altogether, the expense in this case; for instance, the tolls levied on vessels taking shelter from bad weather. Look, too, at the annual loss of life and property sustained by the country from casualties which might be greatly diminished by proper exertions. Again, the large sum paid in tolls and dues by the commercial marine of the country gave it an additional right to the protection to be derived from harbours of refuge. Was there, too, no unreasonable expenditure in the maintenance of our convicts in a state of idleness? From the tenth Report on Prisons, it appeared, from the evidence of Colonel Jebb, that the annual cost of maintaining each prisoner at Millbank was £23 1s. 10 d.; at Pentonville, £24 12 s.; and at Dartmoor, £30 4s. 11 d. At Portland, on the other hand, where the convicts were employed on public works, and where the value of their labour was taken into account, the annual cost of maintaining each prisoner was only £2 17 s.; and at Portsmouth, where the convicts were also employed on public works, the annual cost of maintenance per man was £4 16 s. When their Lordships looked at that estimate of the cost of keeping convicts employed, as compared with those who were unemployed, and when they had regard also to the enormous loss of property in shipping, from time to time, by disasters at sea, he thought the inference went irresistibly to support the suggestions he had made to the House. Again, let their Lordships look at the state of the workhouses in England and Wales, where at this moment there were 51,586 children of both sexes, of whom 6,000 were fit for public service. That was a serious consideration, and another reason, as he thought, why the Government in a time of peace, with the whole resources of the country at their command, should direct their attention to providing such facilities as he had ventured to suggest for the greater protection of the shipping of the country and of the lives of men engaged in seafaring pursuits. He might also remind their Lordships that, while there were no less than three or four different harbours of refuge

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  on the south coast of England, there was not a single one throughout the whole 260 miles of iron-bound coast on the northeast. He thought, when the question of how our convict population was to be dealt with was under consideration, it was a perfectly legitimate opportunity for him to make the suggestions he had done, and he trusted they would meet with such attention as they fairly deserved at the hands of the Government.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he did not deny that the construction of harbours of refuge would be most useful to the commercial interest of the country, nor that the employment of convict labour on them, to a certain extent, might be of advantage; though he could assure the noble Lord that convict labour in Portland was not employed with such advantageous results as the noble Lord had supposed, inasmuch as it entailed a large amount of expenditure in establishment charges, which made it difficult to apply it in all cases where it might be desirable to have recourse to it. With regard to the formation of a harbour of refuge on the north-eastern coast of England, he readily admitted that it was desirable to have harbours of refuge to which vessels might have recourse in severe weather or under circumstances of distress; but whilst he said this, he could not see that the north-eastern coast had a greater claim to such accommodation than other parts of the coast. If, for instance, he were to admit its claim, he saw a noble Lord opposite who would at once put in a similar claim for the Welsh coast, and a noble Friend behind him who would put in a claim for the Bristol Channel; and both would pronounce it a hardship and an injustice if the Government began on the north-eastern coast works which they were not prepared to construct elsewhere. Already Her Majesty's Government were largely engaged in the construction of works of this description. He need only mention Portland Harbour, Dover Harbour, and the harbour at Alderney, where the works would prove not only extremely useful and beneficial to commerce and navigation, but had been strongly recommended to the attention of the Government as on many accounts highly essential for the defence of the country in time of war; and he was sure the noble Lord would agree with him that all these had priority of claim to the north-eastern coast. Extensive works were also being prosecuted at Holyhead,
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  with a view to the improvement of the communication between England and Ireland; and also at Portpatrick, for the improvement of the communication between Scotland and Ireland. Moreover, of all the great seaports of England, excepting Liverpool, those connected with the Tyne were the least in the position to come to ask Parliament to construct a harbour of refuge, seeing that for years past they had levied heavy contributions on the shipping which frequented the Tyne, a large portion of which was not applied to the improvement of either the navigation or the harbour, but to paving and lighting the town of Newcastle and other municipal purposes. Had that money been expended on the navigation and improvement of the harbour, they might by this time have erected twenty harbours of refuge in that part of the country. He repeated, that he was ready to admit the importance of establishing harbours of refuge, and should be glad to see the possibility and the opportunity of doing it; but at the same time it would be extremely difficult to place his hand on any one spot on the Eastern coast and satisfy the public that they should begin there in preference to any other. He hardly knew a single point of the coast, from the Humber up to the Frith of Forth, which had not put in its claim for the construction of a harbour. Now, he did not mean to assert that the existence of this difference of opinion as to the best position for a harbour of refuge ought to prevent the Government from devoting their attention to the subject. At the present moment, however, he was not prepared to recommend the commencement of any new work of this description, though he admitted that the whole question—not as to the establishment of harbours of refuge on the part of the coast pointed out by the noble Lord, but through out the whole coast of England—was well worthy the consideration of the Government.
  LORD VIVIANexpressed his strong opinion that there was no question which more deserved the attention of Government than that of the formation of harbours of refuge on the more dangerous portions of the coast, or an object for the accomplishment of which grants of public money might with more propriety and advantage be made.
  On Question, Resolved in the Negative.
  House adjourned till To-morrow.