Sitting of 10 December 1857

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—For Thetford, Alexander Hugh Baring, Esq.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Oaths; Public Health Act (1848) Amendment.
2° Sir Henry Havelock's Annuity.

THE WESTMINSTER BELL—QUESTION.
MR. BOWYERsaid, he would beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works, What is the result of the inquiry regarding the cracking of the great bell, and whether the founders are to pay the expense of the new bell; also, whether the new bell is to be warranted sound and durable by Messrs. Mears, the bell-founders?
SIR BENJAMIN HALL, in reply, said,

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he had put himself in communication on this subject with Mr. Beckett Denison, who probably knew more about bells than any man in Europe; and he thought he could not do better than read the reply which Mr. Denison had kindly sent him. It was as follows:—
"42, Queen Anne Street, Dec. 9.
"My dear Sir,—The cause of the cracking of the great bell was correctly stated in The Times of the 19th of November.
"Through some mistake or accident, which the founders say they cannot account for, the waist (or thin part of the bell) was made one-eighth inch thicker than I designed it. The consequence was that it required a clapper of twelve cwt. instead of seven cwt. to bring the full sound out; and although the sound-bow or striking part of the bell bore this clapper for nearly a year, it gave way at last.
"If the bell had cracked when it was first tried with this clapper the founders would undoubtedly have had to recast it at their own expense, as they had engaged to make it according to my drawings, and in fact had refused (as you know) to undertake the job unless I would take the responsibility of designing all the bells. But as it seemed to be able to bear this large clapper, even when pulled by ten men, and was generally approved, Mr. Taylor and I did not feel justified in withholding our certificate on account of the deviation from the prescribed thickness, weight, and note; for the quarter-bells were not then made, and could as easily be adapted to the note E natural as to E flat, which I had intended the great bell to be. Moreover, we wore quite satisfied of the soundness of the casting by various tests, and, therefore, Messrs. Warner were paid, and cannot now be fixed with the cost of recasting.
"It is right, however, to add that this recasting will not bring the whole cost of the bells above the original estimate, as it included a large margin for contingencies on account of the obvious risk of casting five such bells as these in tune with each other, the smallest of them being as heavy as the largest bell of an ordinary modern peal, and the largest fifteen times as heavy. There is no further risk now, as the quarter-bells are all cast, and only exceed my estimate of eight tons weight by twenty-nine pounds.
"The new bell is to be delivered sound by the 19th of February, and is not to be paid for until it has been tried by ringing with a seven cwt. clapper, nor unless it agrees with the prescribed dimensions, composition, and specific gravity. Nothing more can be done to secure its goodness and its durability.
"The best bells in the world, such as the old Great Tom of Lincoln, sometimes crack quite capriciously, while very bad ones, such as Great Tom of Oxford, sometimes obstinately last a great deal too long.
"The great bell of the Roman Catholic Cathedral at Montreal cracked in about a year after it was hung. So in that respect, we are no worse off than other people; and, luckily, our bell was not hung before it cracked.
"Yours truly,
"E. B. DENISON.
"The Eight Hon. Sir B. Hall, Bart., &c."

COMMON LAW COMMISSIONERS' REPORT.

  QUESTION
  MR. WARRENsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether any steps have been taken by the Government to carry into effect any of the recommendations of the Common Law (Judicial Business) Commissioners, in their Report of the 81st of July last, particularly with reference to the proposed alterations in the existing circuits of the Judges; whether all or any of such recommendations are to be carried into effect by Act of Parliament, or by authority of the Executive Government, and in the former case, when the Bill for that purpose will be introduced, and in the latter, when an official announcement of the contemplated changes will be made?
  SIR GEORGE GREYreplied, that the Report of the Commissioners had been received, and that he had since addressed a letter to the Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench, who was at the head of the Commission, stating the views which Her Majesty's Government entertained upon the subject. Under these circumstances, perhaps, the best course would be to lay that letter before the House, and if the hon. and learned Gentleman moved for it it would be produced. He might, however, take that opportunity of stating that some of the alterations suggested could only be made by Act of Parliament, and with regard to these a Bill was in preparation.

BANK ACT-MERCANTILE DISTRESS.

  QUESTION.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, I beg to give notice that, in the event of the House acceding to the Motion for the appointment of a Committee of which I have given notice for to-morrow night, I shall move that—
  "It be an instruction to the Committee to inquire into the causes of the recent mercantile distress, and also to inquire how far it has been affected by the laws regulating that Bank Notes shall be payable on demand."
  MR. DISRAELI: I wish, Sir, to give notice of the Amendment which it is my intention to move to-morrow to the Motion of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave notice a few nights ago. What I propose is to move as an Amendment to the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer:—
  "That in the opinion of this House no further

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  inquiry is necessary into the operation of the Bank Act of 1844, 7 & 8 Vict,c. 32."
  The words I have used, I beg to say, are those used as an instruction to the Committee of last Session.

ELECTION PETITIONS—QUESTION.
MR. STEUARTsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether Her Majesty's Government have had under their consideration the Law regarding the Procedure on Election Petitions, and will be prepared either to introduce a measure after the recess, or to agree to the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the whole subject?
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that, in the course of the discussions upon the subject during the last Session he had expressed an opinion that it was very desirable that any new legislation upon the law regulating the trial and withdrawal of election petitions should be preceded by a careful inquiry into the existing practice. He therefore thought it expedient that a Committee should be appointed during the present Session to conduct this investigation.

PROBATE COURT (IRELAND)—QUESTION.
MR. HATCHELL (in the absence of Mr. DEASY)said, he would beg to inquire of the Attorney General for Ireland, when it is intended to bring into operation the Act of last Session relative to Probates and Letters of Administration in Ireland; and also whether it is intended to provide for the sitting of the new Court of Probate in the immediate vicinity of the Four Courts?
MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, the Act alluded to by the hon. Gentleman would come into operation on the 11th of January next. It was intended to provide for the sitting of the new Court in the vicinity of the Four Courts, and temporary accommodation would be found so as to meet the public wishes in that respect.

SAVINGS BANKS—QUESTION.
MR. COLLINSsaid, he begged to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if Her Majesty's Government intended to bring in a Bill with reference to savings banks, or to appoint a Select Committee to con-
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sider the whole subject, including the appropriation of savings-bank securities for purposes other than those required for answering the drafts of the trustees of such institutions?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, in reply to the question of the hon. Member, I beg to say that it is not my intention to ask leave this Session to bring in a Bill upon the subject of savings banks, but it is my intention, unless I find the House should offer any objection to that course, to move after the holidays, that the whole question of savings banks,—including the appropriation of savings-banks securities, adverted to by the hon. Member—shall be referred to a Select Committee. I will therefore take an opportunity of moving that the law relating to savings banks be referred to a Select Committee.

REFORMATORY SCHOOLS—QUESTION.
MR. GARNETTwished to ask the Vice President of the Board of Education, Whether it is the intention of the Lords of the Committee of Council on Education to cancel the Minute dated the 2nd day of June, 1856, so far as it relates to Reformatory Schools, certified by the Secretary of State under the Act 17 & 18 Vict., c. 86; and if so, whether it is intended that the 7s. per week at present allowed by the Home Office for the care and maintenance of each inmate detained under sentence in any such Reformatory School shall be the only public money granted for such purpose?
MR. COWPERsaid, that the time appeared to have now arrived when Reformatory Schools ought to be placed on a more permanent footing. The Home Office had now appointed a special inspector for Reformatory Schools, and it was desirable that the Votes to these schools should be distributed through a single department, instead of two. Reformatory Schools were now able to obtain important aid from borough and county rates, and it had become necessary that the Minute of June 2, 1856, should be greatly altered and modified. For some months past no new Reformatory Schools had received the grants of the Committee of Council on Education, and notice had been given that after a limited period to be named the existing reformatories would cease to receive these grants altogether.

STATE OF THE THAMES—QUESTION.
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether any Report has been made by Mr. Gurney in reply to the reference which he promised to make to him on the subject of the state of the Thames opposite the Houses of Parliament; and, if such a Report has been made, whether he will lay it on the table of the House?
SIR BENJAMIN HALL: Sir, Mr. Gurney presented a Report to me a day or two ago, and if the hon. Gentleman desires that it should be laid on the table I have no objection.

TELEGRAMS FROM INDIA—QURSTION.
MR. LYGONsaid, he would beg to ask the President of the Board of Control, on whom rests the responsibility of providing that the intelligence transmitted by electric telegraph to this country from the East Indies shall represent as accurately as possible the detailed information conveyed by the mails?
MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, that when the telegrams were first sent from India, some confusion arose in transmitting the intelligence. Orders had, however, been sent to the Secretaries of the Government in India to transmit official telegrams, which had been very diligently compiled and carefully selected. In the messages sent by the Consular Agents there had been occasional mistakes in Indian names, but great care was now taken in this respect; and, on the whole, he thought the duty was performed very satisfactorily.

TROOPS FOR INDIA—QUESTION.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether it is true that Lord Elphinstone telegraphed to Lord Canning that he had steam vessels at Bombay which he could send, if desired, to Suez, to facilitate the conveyance of troops overland to India?
MR. VERNON SMITH: We have no information, Sir, of such a telegram having been transmitted by Lord Elphinstone to Lord Canning. I do not think it very likely that Lord Elphinstone would send, such a message, as I have a private letter from him, in which he speaks of the difficulty of providing transports, all the transport he could furnish having been required for the Persian war, and being then in the Persian Gulf. He also speaks
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of the danger of navigating the Red Sea at that particular season. It is not very likely, I apprehend, that Lord Elphinstone would propose to do what he said in his letter to me was not only difficult, but almost impossible. I cannot, however, say that such a message was not sent.

THE CLIVE FUND—QUESTION.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he would now beg to ask the President of the Board of Control, What is the present state of a fund of £70,000 created by a donation of Lord Clive in 1765, who paid a legacy which he received to that amount into the East India Company's Treasury at Fort William, to be at interest for the support of European officers and soldiers who might be disabled or decayed in the Company's Service in Bengal, and for the widows of officers and soldiers who might die on service there?
MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, that he wrote yesterday to the Accountant of the East India House to furnish him with a detailed account in figures relative to the Clive Fund. It had not, however, arrived when he came down to the House. As to the state of the fund, the best answer he could give was to refer the right hon. Gentleman to the evidence of Sir James Melvill before a Committee of the House, in which he stated that the Clive Fund had been superseded as to European officers by the grant of retired half pay by the Company to a greater amount than was provided by the fund. Both the principal and interest of the fund had long been exhausted, and the pensions were now supplied by the Company.

TROOPS FOR INDIA—QUESTION.
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether any more regiments than the 95th, 89th, and 13th had been sent from the Cape to India; whether the 95th was not under orders for New Zealand, and the 89th relieving them; whether the two regiments so deducted from the forces at the Cape are all the set off against the addition of the German Legion on full pay, equal to four regiments in strength; and whether the total result of an increase of forces at the Cape by two regiments is wholly at the expense of this country?
MR. LABOUCHERE: Sir, I propose to-morrow to lay upon the table a paper which will give the House full information with regard to the conduct of the Governors of Colonies in the vicinity of India when they received direct intelligence of the recent revolt. I refer to the Governors of Ceylon, the Mauritius, and the Cape of Good Hope. With regard to the Governor of Ceylon, I may state that Sir Henry Ward, having received a despatch from the Governor General of India, stating that he should be glad to have every soldier he could spare, did send to India almost every European soldier in the Colony, and thereby afforded most effectual assistance to the Governor General. Lord Elphinstone sent an officer in a vessel to the Mauritius, and thence to the Cape of Good Hope, to ask for succours. The Governor of the Mauritius sent one regiment and a company of Artillery, which, considering the state of that Colony, must, I think, have included every soldier he could possibly spare for the assistance of India. With regard to the Cape of Good Hope, Sir George Grey, the Governor, sent three regiments at once to India; two only of those regiments belonged to the Cape establishment, the other was on its way to New Zealand, but Sir George Grey very properly took upon himself the responsibility of diverting it; and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that he is mistaken if he supposes that Sir George Grey's efforts to send succour to India were limited to those I have described. Besides the troops I have mentioned, at the same time Sir George Grey sent two companies of Artillery, and knowing that there was a great want of specie at Calcutta he remitted £60,000 from the colonial chest, trusting to the public spirit of the Colonists to bear him harmless. This sum was most gratefully received by the Government of India. The hon. Gentleman also asks if the Governor of the Cape has since sent further succours to India. I have this morning received a letter from Sir George Grey, in which he states that he has sent another regiment, the 80th, to Ceylon. Whether the whole will remain at Ceylon or any part go on to Calcutta I am not aware; but at any rate he has sent that regiment practically for the service of India. With regard to another most important mode of rendering
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assistance, Sir George Grey, with his usual promptitude and energy, anticipating orders which I had sent (that he should immediately supply 1,000 horses for the same service), had begun at once, and I find by the letter received this day, had either prepared for embarkation, or already caused to be embarked, 1,000 horses, of which 500 or 600 were taken from corps on service, and therefore already trained. In fact the number of horses sent by Sir George Grey from the Cape before receiving any orders from home seems only to have been limited by the amount of forage which could be obtained to send with them. While mentioning this I cannot forbear alluding to the manner in which the Colonists of the Cape have come forward to support the Government on this occasion. Sir George Grey writes that, in order to enable him to send more troops, the inhabitants of Cape Town volunteered to do garrison duty in that Colony when it was more than usually onerous, because the town was full of Kafir prisoners. Assuming that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Adderley) means to infer that, considering the large number of troops at the Cape, more succours can be sent to India, it only remains for me to say that what Sir George Grey has hitherto done has been without any precise instructions, and that some months ago, by command of the Government, I sent instructions to him to despatch six regiments to India, unless some very novel and unexpected circumstances should arise in the Colony making it necessary to retain a larger force. I have every reason to believe that Sir George Grey will act upon these instructions. I have the utmost confidence in the promptitude, spirit, energy, and discretion of Sir George Grey, and I am perfectly satisfied he will render to the army in India every assistance in his power. As an instance of zeal on the part of the Cape Colonists, I may state that Sir George Grey and the leading men gave up their own private horses, and the inhabitants generally sold their horses at the usual prices, not allowing them to be affected by this increased demand. I believe I may say that the Cape Colonists have, in every possible manner, co-operated with the public authorities in assisting the service of the country towards quelling the Indian rebellion.

MILITARY AUDITOR—QUESTION.
GENERAL CODRINGTONsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary for War, Whether in the office lately established—namely, that of "Military Auditor," attached to the troops in China—any separate authority is given independent of, and with financial control over, the general officer in command of the troops; whether the expenditure required on active service in the field must not necessarily, as heretofore, be decided on the sole responsibility of the general officer; whether those persons employed in the office of military auditor with the troops in China are amenable to, or independent of, the provisions of the Mutiny Act?
SIR JOHN RAMSDENsaid, he could assure his hon. and gallant Friend that the appointment of the military auditor attached to the troops in China would not in any way interfere with the authority of the general in command of the forces. The duties of a military auditor were to audit accounts, to settle claims, and to be a referee on all points of financial regulation in the army; and it was expected that, by his assistance, references home of minor points would be avoided. In the instructions to the military auditor it was particularly stated that he would exercise his functions subject to the directions and instructions of the general commanding the forces; but perhaps it would be more satisfactory if he were to lay a copy of those instructions on the table, which he should ask leave to do on that evening. With regard to the question whether the persons employed in the office of military auditor would be amenable to the provisions of the Mutiny Act, his answer was, that all persons connected with the War Department, when employed under the command of a general officer in the field, were, by the second clause of the Mutiny Act, brought under the provisions of that Act.

THE FRIENDLY OFFERS OF FOREIGN POWERS—QUESTION.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: Sir, I will now ask the First Lord of the Treasury the questions of which I have given notice:—Whether it is true that Lord Stratford de Redcliffe telegraphed to Her Majesty's Government that he had obtained a firman from the Sultan for the passage of troops through Egypt to India, and, if so, what was the date of that com-
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munication? Perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to ask another question, of which I have not given him notice. It is, Whether it is within his knowledge that, by the joint influence of Lord Stratford de Redcliffe and M. Thouvenel, the French Ambassador, a firman was actually obtained from the Porte for the passage of French troops to Pondicherry through Egypt? I will also ask, What was the date of the friendly offer made to Her Majesty's Government by the Emperor of the French to permit British troops to pass through France on their way to India?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I will first answer the second question of the right hon. Baronet, with respect to the application said to have been made by the British and French Ambassadors for the passage of French troops to Pondicherry. We have no knowledge of any such application, and I do not believe that French troops did go across Egypt. With regard to the first question, Lord Stratford de Redcliffe on the 30th of June informed Her Majesty's Government by telegraph that he would apply to the Turkish Government to allow troops to pass through Egypt on their way to India if the British Government thought it advisable that that course should be pursued. On the 2nd of July he was informed that it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government at that time to send any troops to India through Egypt; and perhaps I may be allowed to state shortly the reasons. To send a large body of troops, as was then intended to be sent, through Egypt, would have required complicated arrangements, and taken up infinitely more time than would have been saved. If for instance, we sent 5,000 men to Alexandria for the purpose of going through Egypt, there would be great difficulty in transporting so large a number of troops across the Desert. When they arrived at Suez, unless there were ample shipping to take them down the Red Sea, there would be a great delay at a place where there would be no possible means of putting them under proper cover. They would also be exposed to very severe heat in the passage down the Red Sea, which might render them unfit for service when they arrived in India. Moreover, as they would have required a very large amount of shipping to be ready at Suez, it would have been quite unpardonable in the

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Government to have sent them there until they knew that there were sufficient transports for their accommodation at Suez. It would also have been necessary to send them through Egypt in light marching order; whereas, sending them by sea, we were able to send them with baggage, stores of all kinds, and guns. They would arrive in good health, and when landed, would be perfectly ready for any service that might be required of them. There was another collateral reason, which, upon a balance of equal advantages, would be calculated to turn the scale. In a national point of view it was of importance in putting down the mutiny that we should do it with our own means in every respect, and that it should not be competent for any foreign nation to say, that if it had not been for certain facilities afforded us by friendly Powers, which might have been withheld, we should not have been able to accomplish our purpose. I do not mean to say that if there had been a great difference in point of advantage in favour of one route over the other such a reason ought to prevail, but when the balance was against the overland passage that consideration was entitled to be taken into account. On the 2nd of October, when the season had moderated, when the great bulk of the troops had been sent, and the Government had occasion to send smaller detachments, the passage of which was more easy, Lord Stratford de Redcliffe was desired to ask the formal permission of the Porte and the Pasha of Egypt. He did so; the permission was obtained, and in the first place two companies of infantry were sent across Egypt to reinforce the garrison at Aden. Some artillery and engineers have been sent to Calcutta and Bombay since, and from that time we have been sending detachments of regiments, which are now on their way by that route. The right hon. Gentleman also asks what was the time when the French Government made their offer of a passage for our troops through France. That was on the 5th of October, and at that time the bulk of the troops had gone. Although the offer did great credit to the friendly disposition of the French Government, and we are very grateful to them for it, we thought that the difficulties of a land passage, and of landing and reshipping the troops with their arms and baggage, rendered it better that they should go
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round at once by Gibraltar than pass through France.

COMMERCE OF THE BLACK SEA.

  QUESTION.
  MR. WISEsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the regulations for admission into the Russian ports of the Black Sea have been framed in a spirit favourable to the development of commercial transactions, and to what ports in the Black Sea English Consuls have been sent by Her Majesty's Government?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I cannot say that the arrangements which have been made by the Russian Government for promoting commercial intercourse on the eastern coast of the Black Sea, as at present framed, are in accordance with the letter or the spirit of the Treaty of Paris. We are told, however, that those arrangements are only temporary, and that, when the Russian Government have established custom-houses in the various ports, they will proceed to open them for commercial intercourse. At present there are but three ports, Souchum-Kaleh and two others, to which we could send Consuls.
  MR. WISEsaid, that if the noble Lord would name the ports to which Consuls had been sent the information would be very grateful to the British merchants interested in that trade, who were at present in entire ignorance on the matter.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Their ignorance is not at all inexcusable, seeing that no Consuls have been sent. My noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office has been waiting to get information, which has only recently reached him, in order to enable him to determine which are the ports to which it would be advisable to send Consuls. I believe my noble Friend has pretty well made up his mind, but until the appointments are made I cannot state the ports to which the Consuls will be sent.

THE STADE DUES—QUESTION.
MR. FENWICKsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether Her Majesty's Government have been in negotiation with the Government of Hanover, with a view to the extinction of the Stade Dues; and if so, what progress has been made in the negotiation; and whether any assurance

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can now be given of an early and satisfactory settlement of the question?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: The Stade Dues are of the same nature as the Sound Dues, and, though it would no doubt be very desirable to get rid of them, that can only be done by negotiations, not with Hanover alone, but in concert with many other Governments interested in the matter. We have had communications for the purpose, but they have not yet come to such a point as to enable me to say that there is an immediate prospect of getting rid of the dues. Being of the same nature as the Sound Dues, of course they can only be got rid of in the same way—by compensation.

MARKETS AND FAIRS IN IRELAND.

  QUESTION.
  LORD FRANCIS CONYNGHAMsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce a measure for the regulation of the Fairs and Markets in Ireland?
  MR. H. A. HERBERTsaid, it was the intention of the Government to introduce a measure this Session for the regulation of Markets and Fairs in Ireland.

THE BRITISH ENGINEERS AT NAPLES.

  QUESTION.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he wished to ask, Whether the noble Lord at the head of the Government had looked at the letter of the British Vice Consul at Naples in reference to the treatment of the two engineers in prison there, and whether he will lay it on the table?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: The letter has already been laid on the table.

OATHS—JEWISH DISABILITIES.

  COMMITTEE—BILL, ORDERED.
  Oaths considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I am glad to be able to assure the Committee that I shall not have occasion to detain it for any length of time, as this subject has been so frequently under discussion, and the House of Commons has recently heard a very able statement on it from my noble Friend at the head of the Government when introducing his Bill of last Session. The Committee is well
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  aware that the general principle of our legislation is not to disqualify any man for legislative functions or for the possession of office on account of religious opinions. That principle has been established both with regard to Protestant Dissenters and Roman Catholics, although in former times there were political objections, which operated against its application to those two classes, but which do not apply to the Jews. The Committee is also aware that there is no positive enactment affecting Her Majesty's Jewish subjects, that their exclusion is only owing to the construction put upon the Oath of Abjuration, and that that oath was not originally intended for that purpose; still by the effect which has been given to it the persons refusing the Oath of Abjuration, namely, 40,000 of Her Majesty's Jewish subjects, are treated in the same way as 40,000 Popish recusants—an instance of the absurdity of considering them to have been originally contemplated in the framing of the oath. I shall not touch upon the general reasons for religious freedom. Those reasons, as I have said before, stand recorded in the Statute-book; nor shall I go into the reasons for altering the present oath, which upon the face of it is exceedingly absurd, and pledges Members of this House not to support the claims to the Throne of persons who have no existence. I will, therefore, state at once what is the nature of the Bill which I propose to introduce. The Bill of last year contained a simple form of oath, not similar to the one which I introduced in 1848—which could be taken by all Members of this House—but an oath which could be taken by all persons who were not of the Roman Catholic persuasion. That is the oath which I propose to introduce on the present occasion, but I propose to add to the words of that oath the closing words of the present Oath of Abjuration—"This I declare on the true faith of a Christian." The reason why I propose to introduce those words is, that, having been long in use, they have got a sort of prescriptive value in the eyes of many, and also that one of the most eminent supporters of Jewish claims, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), has more than once expressed his opinion that those words should be retained in the oath. I propose, of course

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  by a subsequent clause, that whenever one of Her Majesty's Jewish subjects comes to take the oath those words shall be omitted. It follows, of course, in a more logical way than from the Bill which my noble Friend introduced last Session, that Jews will be disabled from holding certain offices which cannot be held by Roman Catholics. I do not propose to put Jews in a superior position to Roman Catholics, but to admit them to the enjoyment of the same privileges. There is another question upon which I cannot refrain from touching for a few moments, because I am sure that the subject will naturally present itself to the minds of hon. Members. It so happened that in 1847, after the debate which took place upon the suspension of the Bank Charter Act, on the 16th of December, I introduced this Bill, or at least a similar Bill on this subject. That Bill and other Bills for the same purpose have been rejected by the other House of Parliament, and I think the question may be fairly asked what prospect is there of this Bill being more favourably received by the other House than its predecessors? To that question I should answer, in the first place, that I have drawn the Bill in the most conciliatory form possible; that this House has at all times—except once, when I proposed to extend the oath to Roman Catholics—affirmed the principle of religious liberty; that last year the majority of this House was far greater than it had been before; and that in the whole course of our history, repeated decisions of this House, when ratified by considerable majorities, with respect to any matter of internal policy, have always had great weight with the other House. But, Sir, I do not wish to conceal from the House my intentions upon this subject. At the end of last Session I was informed that the hon. and learned Attorney General was of opinion that the Act 5 & 6 Will. IV. entitled this House to frame a declaration to be taken in place of the oath if it should so think fit. On hearing that opinion from so eminent and distinguished an authority as the Attorney General, I thought it right to have the question examined by a Select Committee of this House. The House consented to the nomination of that Committee, and in it the question was very fully debated. No witnesses were ex-
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  amined, but the subject was debated and thoroughly sifted by hon. Gentlemen belonging to the legal profession, and by other Members of the Committee with [much ability and in great detail. The result of the discussion was unfavourable to the position of the Attorney General, but at the same time the majority against that position was a very narrow one, consisting of one only of the original Members of the Committee, and of two of the gentlemen of the long robe who had been added to it. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich (Sir John Pakington) had prepared a Motion, which he wished to propose, but which, owing to the form observed in Committees, could not then be proposed. I do not remember the exact terms of his Motion, but it was to the effect that the Houses of Parliament were included in the Act of William IV.; but that it was not expedient to use the power conferred by that Act unless it should appear that there was no other constitutional mode by which the object in view might be accomplished. It was not my duty, being Chairman of that Committee, to express any opinion, or to take any part in its discussions; but certainly, if I had been called upon to give an opinion, it would have exactly coincided with that of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich. Such being my opinion, it is unnecessary now to enter into the argument on the subject. I will only say that that argument was stated with almost more than his usual learning and ability by the Attorney General, and that the Motion which he made, "that the words included the Houses of Parliament," met with the concurrence not only of the right hon. Member for Droitwich (Sir John Pakington), but also of the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), the noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord Stanley), the Lord Advocate of Scotland, and many other distinguished Members of this House. It was likewise supported in a speech of great ability and acuteness by the hon. and learned Member for Boston (Mr. Adams). Fortified by those opinions, and convinced by the arguments which were used, I should not think it right to allow this question to drop altogether without giving the House an opportunity of considering whether or not they will adopt the proposition of a declaration instead of an oath to be taken by Mem-

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  bers who may object to certain words in that oath. Of course that is a question which requires to be maturely considered, and the House must be allowed time to consider it; but I must confess that my opinion is, that we have been perhaps somewhat negligent in allowing the subject of the seat of a Member of this House to he discussed, as it has been, in the courts of law. My belief is, that it is a question, which, by the constitution of the country, the courts below are hardly competent to decide; and, as it would be impossible for them to entertain the question whether a Member who was elected to this House had been duly elected, so likewise it is not competent for them to decide whether the oaths have been properly taken. Such was the principle on which the House of Lords acted in the case of Lord Wensleydale. Some persons may think that they were right in the decision at which they arrived; others may think that they were wrong; but nobody has disputed the competency of the House of Lords to act as they did—nobody has denied that they were perfectly able, after Her Majesty had by letters patent created a Peer, to decide whether that Peer had a right to take his seat in the House of Lords. In like manner I believe that we are fully competent to decide whether a Member who has taken the oath or the declaration, as the case may be, is eligible to sit in this House. That, however, is not the question at present. My object is to bring in a Bill, and to endeavour to obtain for it the assent of the whole Legislature; but at the same time I shall not be prepared to abandon the rights of the House of Commons, as they have been ably stated by very high legal authorities, believing them to be in conformity with the liberty of the subject and with the privileges of this House Sir, I beg to move—
  "That the Chairman be directed to move the House, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to substitute one Oath for the Oaths of Allegiance, Supremacy, and Abjuration; and for the Relief of Her Majesty's Subjects professing the Jewish Religion."
  SIR FREDERIC THESIGERsaid, he believed that the noble Lord who had just addressed the Committee understood that it had been arranged that there should be no opposition offered to the introduction of his Bill, or to its being read a first time, the noble Lord, on his
  474
  part, having engaged that he would not ask for a second reading until after Christmas; and he (Sir Frederic Thesiger) must suggest to his hon. Friends who agreed with him on this subject, that, considering the various shapes in which Bills had been from time to time introduced for the admission of Jews into Parliament, it was very desirable that they should have an opportunity of seeing what was the particular measure which was now proposed, in order that they might be enabled the more satisfactorily to discuss it after the recess. He could not help congratulating the noble Lord opposite on having resumed his natural position on this question. In 1847, when the noble Lord was first returned for the City of London with Baron Rothschild, and when he gave a pledge from the hustings that he would introduce a measure for the relief of the Jews, the subject seemed to belong as of right to him; but on the last two occasions on which the question had been submitted to the House the noble Lord had been rather placed in the background. In 1856, owing, possibly, to the young and zealous advocates for the admission of the Jews being somewhat dissatisfied with the slowness of the movements of the noble Lord, Mr. Milner Gibson forestalled the noble Lord in the introduction of a measure, and such was the exuberance of that hon. Gentleman's zeal that he proceeded to the extremity of endeavouring to get rid altogether of the Oath of Abjuration. The duty of the noble Lord upon that occasion was limited to correcting the zeal of his associate, and, desiring to retain portions of the Oath of Abjuration, he introduced an Amendment in Committee by which a new Oath of Abjuration was to have been substituted. During the last Session the noble Lord fought under the banners of the noble Lord at the head of the Government. He (Sir Frederic Thesiger) believed that that course was adopted more from policy than from humility, because the noble Lord was thus enabled to move the whole machine of the Government, and to exert all its weight and influence in support of his darling object. The noble Lord had now appeared again in the front of the battle, and he was happy to find that he was once more treading in constitutional paths, though not without some little glances at those indirect and crook-

  475
  ed ways which had been occasionally attempted for the purpose of forcing the Jews on Parliament. The noble Lord did not now, indeed, threaten them with a Resolution which should seat the Jews in defiance of the House of Lords; but he had adverted to that which was one of the most extraordinary circumstances that had occurred among the variety of schemes which had been from time to time proposed for that purpose; and it appeared that he clung to the power which he presumed that the Act of William IV. would give him, and imagined that he should be enabled by its means to force the Jew upon the Legislature in defiance of the courts of law. He (Sir Frederic Thesiger) must confess that few things had struck him as more extraordinary than the discovery which was all at once made of that Act of Parliament, which, although it had been overlooked for many years, was supposed to afford a short cut to the object which so many persons had at heart. The suggestion altogether appeared to him so strange that, though every one admitted the great talent of the noble Lord and his remarkable fertility of contrivance, he immediately came to the conclusion that an idea so ingenious must have first suggested itself to some more acute and subtle mind, even than that of the noble Lord. The noble Lord had now satisfied them upon that point, and had told them that it was his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General to whom it had first occurred that that Act of Parliament, which had so long escaped the vigilance of every one, would, in default of legislation, attain the object which he had in view. He could imagine the pleasure with which this new light flashed upon his eyes, and the joyful haste with which he hurried to the noble Lord with his Eureka—he (Sir Frederic Thesiger) hoped not exactly in the state of the person from whom that exclamation first proceeded. It was said that it very much enhanced the merits of an inventor or discoverer if the subject of discovery had been lying for a long time, as it were, upon the surface, unperceived, although in sight of the world, until the happy moment when the discoverer stooped on the ground and picked it up. But what should they say of the merits of the hon. and learned Gentleman, who, while gentlemen of ingenious and anxious minds, who had
  476
  had their thoughts turned continually in this direction, had entirely overlooked this wonder-working Act of Parliament, lighted upon it and in a moment discovered that which had escaped the attention of so many others? The noble Lord had said that it might be necessary to revert to that Act of Parliament upon some future occasion if he should not succeed in a constitutional manner in obtaining the admission of the Jew to Parliament; but he thought that the noble Lord would pause before he adopted a course which would be accompanied with so much danger, with the certainty of a collision with the courts of justice, in which it was, undoubtedly, not very likely that that House would come out of the contest with any credit to itself. The noble Lord had supposed that he found a precedent for the application of this Act of Parliament without the possibility of interference by the courts of law in consequence of what occurred in the House of Peers with regard to the life peerage of Lord Wensleydale; but he (Sir F. Thesiger) was quite sure that the noble Lord had not adverted to the distinction between the two cases—namely, that the oaths which were required to be taken by Members of the Legislature were oaths which were imposed by an Act of Parliament, and that there were penalties attached to persons who might sit and vote without taking those oaths. Now, if the words "upon the true faith of a Christian" were an essential and substantial part of the oath, as had been frequently decided, not merely by courts of law, but by the determination of the noble Lord himself, then the question whether a person sitting and voting in that House, having taken the oath with the omission of these words, was not liable to a penalty, must necessarily come before the courts. They all knew how the courts must decide that question. The noble Lord had adverted to the names of the Gentlemen who composed the Committee, perhaps rather invidiously. He brought forward on the part of the minority a number of very distinguished names, for all of which he (Sir F. Thesiger) had the very highest respect. But at the same time it was very important that the Committee should bear this in mind—he had looked very carefully through the division list of that Committee, and he found on the part of that minority not one single name

  477
  of any hon. Member who had not either for a very considerable time been favourable to the admission of Jews, or who had not been recently converted, converts being proverbially not the most lukewarm in supporting their new opinions. But turning to the other side, he did not hesitate to say that he should not be afraid to poll lawyer for lawyer against the noble Lord. Again he also found this remarkable distinction existing between the majority and the minority—that among the majority were to be found at least five Members of the House who had been in favour of the admission of the Jews, but who, not being satisfied that the construction which he had no doubt the hon. and learned Attorney General had, with the greatest possible ingenuity, endeavoured to put upon this Act of Parliament was the correct one, would not allow their wishes to influence their opinions, and gave their votes, which swelled the majority, and saved the House, for a time at least, from all those perilous consequences which he (Sir Frederic Thesiger) anticipated from the course which the noble Lord had darkly shadowed forth. Let the House consider the position in which it stood with regard to this question. The noble Lord spoke of religious liberty in general, and of religious liberty as far as the Jews were concerned, and upon a former occasion he had spoken of removing the last remnant of religious intolerance, or of placing the last stone upon the edifice of religious liberty. But, if he understood the proposition of the noble Lord, he was not upon the present occasion prepared to place the last stone upon the edifice of religious liberty. What the noble Lord now proposed to do was merely to crown that edifice by a stone in favour of the Jew, leaving every other anti-Christian still excluded by the oath which will be required. Now he did not know why, if the principle of the noble Lord was the removal of all religious intolerance and the completion of the edifice of religious liberty, this tolerance should not extend to the Hindoo and the Mahomedan. [Cheers.] He heard a cheer which he understood to be a cheer of approbation of the principle that every denomination of anti-Christian should be admitted to a seat in that House. To be sure, considering the circumstances that were occurring around us—
  478
  the feeling of hostility which was manifested against Christianity by the Hindoo and the Mahomedan, it did appear to him that the man who could entertain an idea of that kind must have extraordinary notions. Of course, with regard to the Jew, he (Sir F. Thesiger) knew perfectly well that whatever might be, nay must be, his hatred to Christianity, he was not likely to rage so furiously as the heathen, or to be guilty of the savage ferocity of the Mahomedan; but if his feelings of hostility were as deep as theirs, was it a desirable thing to give him the power, by means of a seat in the Legislature of the country, of working in close design, by fraud or guile, what by force he cannot effect? Nor would religious tolerance stop at the point to which those in favour of the admission of the Hindoo and the Mahomedan would carry it. Their edifice of religious liberty would not be completed by the admission of the Hindoo and the Mohamedan as well as the Jew. Suppose the Atheist, the fool who says in his heart, "There is no God," were to come and say, "Why do you compel me by your oaths to profess with my lips the existence of Him whom in my heart I deny? "would not he have reason to complain of your religious intolerance if you did not get rid of the oaths to accommodate what he calls his conscience? Well, then, the first step in that direction is taken by the noble Lord. But the edifice of religious liberty is not uniform. Many more stones are wanted to complete it, and when once the principle for which the noble Lord contends by this Bill is admitted, it is impossible that we can stop short. We must proceed to the end. We must sweep away all religious and even all irreligious distinctions, and admit every one without scruple and without hesitation to a seat in that House. It seems, as the noble Lord must have observed, that there were those who were anxious for that consummation. The noble Lord, by the course he was adopting, would advance their views; and he (Sir F. Thesiger) most earnestly entreated him to pause and consider what the consequences would be, which his great name and his high position in that House would have produced by the introduction of that which was treated only as a partial measure and an instalment of that which was due to the sub-

  479
  ject. He felt strongly upon this question, and regretted that he had trespassed so long upon the attention of the House. He might be still charged with being blind to those arguments which had been so frequently urged in the course of these discussions; he might be still bigoted and unyielding to them from a feeling of religious intolerance; but he was nevertheless resolute in maintaining the position to which he had always adhered, and in every stage of this Bill he would to the utmost of his ability resist the proposition which the noble Lord sought to introduce, because he believed that by giving a seat to the Jew in the Legislature of this country they would give a fatal blow to Christianity, which was intimately interwoven with every department of the State.
  MR. DILLWYNsaid, that as he had taken some part, perhaps the Committee would allow him to say a few words on the question. He was anxious to see the matter settled, and he had taken up the question, not on the ground of civil or religious liberty, but because he believed that whenever a considerable constituency had elected a person properly qualified to represent them in the Legislature, effect ought to be given to their choice. This he thought the House had power to do by Resolution; and for this reason he had endeavoured—not by any crooked course, as was intimated by the hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir Frederic Thesiger), but in an open and straightforward manner—to induce the House to proceed under the Act of the 1 & 2 Vict., and omit the words which at present formed the impediment to a Jew taking his seat. He had, however, given place to the noble Lord the Member for London, who was so well entitled to take the lead on this question. Another Act bearing on this subject was the 4 & 5 Will. IV., by which a declaration could be substituted for an oath; but by whichever of these two Acts they proceeded, they must not allow the question to go up upon appeal to the House of Lords, which was not competent to decide upon the privileges of the Commons. It was true the Committee, by a small majority, negatived the views of the hon. and learned Attorney General; but, as a number of the Members did not attend to hear that hon. and learned Gentleman's arguments, their decision was not deserving of as much weight as
  480
  might otherwise have been attached to it. He wished to express the satisfaction with which he saw that the noble Lord had again taken up this question, for he (Mr. Dillwyn) entertained no doubt of the power of the House to proceed by either or by both of the Acts above named, and it should be remembered that if the noble Lord's Bill failed to pass, the House did not abandon its right to proceed by Resolution. He trusted that the present measure would meet with a better fate than its predecessors, but he thought that after exhausting every means of conciliation, they would be bound to assert the right conferred on them by law and by precedent—namely, that of interpreting the law affecting their own privileges for themselves.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, that, while giving every credit to his hon. and learned Friend (Sir F. Thesiger) for straightforwardness and consistency, he yet rose to express his regret at the course that he had announced his intention to pursue on this occasion. There were circumstances connected with the time and manner in which this measure was brought forward that called for a more than usual amount of opposition; and he wished to announce that he did not feel himself bound by the decision which had been arrived at, and that should it be the pleasure of any hon. Member to divide the Committee on this subject, he, for one, was prepared to go into the same lobby with him. At any rate, he must protest against the line taken by the noble Lord the Member for London on the present occasion. He did not mean to refer to the arguments which had fallen from the noble Lord, with one exception, and that exception he believed told exactly against the noble Lord and the course he had adopted. The noble Lord quoted as a precedent for his introducing the measure into the present special Session that in 1847, when there was also a special Session called together, he introduced a Bill for the relief of the Jews in the same way as he had done now. But it should be remembered that in 1847 the noble Lord was at the head of the Government, and was then perfectly justified in taking the step he had described; whereas, now, however high his political reputation, he only occupied the position of a private Member of that House. Parliament had been assembled for a special

  481
  purpose, and there was a tacit understanding that no business except that for which they had been called together should be transacted; and therefore for a private Member to intrude on their attention a measure of this kind, on which the widest difference of opinion existed, and which had been repeatedly rejected by the Legislature, was a proceeding at once highly irregular and unwarrantable. If the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) had taken such an opportunity to introduce his Motion for the repeal of the Maynooth grant he would have been met with a general outcry; and yet the only difference between the two cases was, that the one was a proposal to secure the Protestant institutions of the country, and the other a proposal to unchristianize the Legislature. Indeed, the adoption of so irregular a course on the part of the noble Lord, who was usually so scrupulously observant of the forms and usages of the House, almost led one to suppose that he acted under pressure from without, and seemed to confirm the rumour which they had all heard that a certain great capitalist, who need not be named, and a certain noble Lord, who must not be named, stood towards each other in the relative positions of patron and nominee. It appeared to him that the Jew question, as it was called, had never been placed on a fair footing in that House. There had always been some misunderstanding or misconception about the merits of the case; and as to the feeling of the country in regard to it, if the country were polled throughout, the opponents to the admission of the Jews would be found in the proportion of ten to one; but the fact was, that for political objects, and not on religious grounds, the same annual farce was performed of bringing in and passing through one House a Bill that was sure to be rejected in the other; and the people therefore refused to take any active interest in the subject. If a popular agitation were once raised on the question, it would soon be seen that no man or set of men whose intention it was to desecrate the Christian religion would be suffered to hold the reins of power; the Jews would speedily be forgotten, and the noble Lord the Member for London would once more be compelled to sit in that House as the representative for Stroud. He would not trespass longer on the atten-
  482
  tion of the Committee. They had from time to time heard the term "factious" applied within those walls. He had heard of a factious minority, but there was also such a thing as a factious majority, and if that phrase could ever be justly applicable to a majority it was to the course taken by the noble Lord and his supporters on the present occasion. He for one was prepared to go into the lobby with any hon. Member who, adopting the forms of the House, would resist the introduction of the measure, and he believed that by so doing they would resist a factious proceeding, and take a course which would give great satisfaction throughout the country.
  MR. COXsaid, that he agreed with the hon. Member who had just sat down that the introduction of this measure year after year had much the appearance of a farce, and he had been in hopes that the noble Lord the Member for the City of London, instead of bringing in a Bill, would have put an end to it by submitting the Resolution spoken of to the House. Much had been said about unchristianizing the Legislature. Why, it was the last thing any sensible man would ever dream of resulting from the admission of the Jews, nor could he even have imagined such a thing when he voted for Baron Rothschild as one of the Members for the City. The hon. and learned Gentleman who opposed the introduction of the Bill (Sir Frederic Thesiger) said if they admitted Jews they must also admit Hindoos and Mahomedans to that House; but the hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to have forgotten that before Hindoos or Mahomedans could take their seats in that House they must be elected by a constituency. Before the Legislature was unchristianized by Mahomedans or Hindoos, these sects must form a majority of the electors. How likely that was he left the hon. and learned Gentleman to suppose. He must say he did not like the manner in which this Jew question was treated. He had lately been reading the humorous description by Sam Weller of how Mr. Pickwick was treated by the lawyers in the noted case of Bardell v. Pickwick, and Sam's observation that "battledore and shuttlecock was a werry amusing and funny game, but when oneself became the shuttlecock it became rather too exciting. "Such was the position of the Jews. They were tossed about like

  483
  shuttlecocks between the battledores of the noble Lord the Member for the City and the hon. and learned Member for Stamford, and he was doubtful whether they would gain much from the amusement. He hoped the noble Lord would carry out his intention by proposing the Resolution which he had shadowed forth. If he did so, he would get plenty of hon. Members on that side of the House to go into the lobby with him.
  MR. NEWDEGATEbelieved, that the hon. Member for Finsbury, who seemed to think that the admission of Jews would not have the effect of depriving the Legislature of its Christian character, fairly represented the confusion which existed in the minds of a certain number of ill-informed persons out of doors. What, however, were the facts? The noble Lord the Member for the City, in 1847, and again in 1849 and 1851, introduced Bills similar in purport to that which he had now announced; these Bills passed the House of Commons, but were rejected by the House of Lords. These Bills would have retained the profession of the Christian faith for all other candidates for admission to the House, but abolished it in favour of the Jews. In 1854, the noble Lord introduced a Bill which he declared embodied the provisions, intentions, and consequences of the Bills he had previously introduced, and that Bill proposed to sweep away at once and for ever the emphatic words "on the true faith of a Christian." The consequence was that the same House of Commons which had passed Bills for the admission of Jews per sc, seeing clearly that the proposal of the noble Lord would at once invalidate the Protestant securities of the constitution and destroy the Christian character of the Legislature, rejected it. How, then, could it be said with truth that those who advocated the introduction of Jews, as proposed in the present Bill, did not intend to unchristianize the Legislature? He believed, for his own part, that if it could be fairly explained to the country, as it might be by a well-concerted agitation, that these often-repeated Bills, nominally only for the admission of Jews, were really intended to strike down the Christian character of the Legislature, the people would regard with indignation such a proposal. The hon. Member for Finsbury recommended the House to seat Baron Rothschild—that profitable
  484
  object of compassion—by way of Resolution, and lamented that person's having so long been bandied about like a shuttlecock. He (Mr. Newdegate) must, however, remind the hon. Member that the state of his client would be still that of a shuttlecock between two battledores. For no sooner would Baron Rothschild have taken his seat than he would himself be involved in the courts of law, bandied about between two sets of able lawyers, battledore in hand, with the certain result of being subjected to a fine of £500 for every vote he ventured to give in that House. The noble Lord the Member for the City, after having introduced a second Bill last Session on this subject, and in so doing having doubly violated the Standing Orders, now condemned his own proceedings by asking the House to resolve itself into Committee for the purpose of considering his proposal in its true sense as a religious question. Only last Session the noble Lord declared again that his proposals to admit the Jews were but steps in the direction of that for which he had continually voted—the open and avowed destruction of the Christian character of the Legislature. [Cries of "No, no!"] The statement of the noble Lord last spring was, that he would have no restriction upon the admission of Jews to the Legislature or to any offices; that he would no longer be a security-monger, for that was the term he used to describe his avowed object, which was to deprive the Legislature of its Christian character.
  LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, that the hon. Member was not quoting correctly. He never made such a statement as that attributed to him.
  MR. NEWDEGATEcould not, while addressing the House, reach Hansard, but, according to that authority, which he had consulted the night before, the noble Lord informed the House last Session that as his proposals for the admission of Baron Rothschild and other Jews as such had not been adopted, he would no longer submit to being embarrassed with the advocacy of those securities which characterised his Bills of 1847 and 1849, but which he had abandoned so long ago as 1854. He thought the noble Lord would scarcely contradict that statement. He (Mr. Newdegate) could not but feel the deep impropriety of the time selected for the present proposal. The country had felt and had

  485
  acknowledged the hand of Almighty God in the calamitous events which had occurred in India; the people had humbled themselves before God, holding a day sacred for that purpose; and, having thus acknowledged the power of the Supreme Being, and deprecated His anger, there arose throughout the length and breadth of the land the cry, "Let India henceforth be governed upon Christian principles." Such was the prevailing expression of feeling and opinion. What was the proposal now before the House? It was not a proposal that India should be governed upon a principle of religious indifferentism, or that the Government of India should hide its own religion and bow down before the miserable superstitions that surrounded it, but it was a proposal that the Imperial Parliament of England itself should abandon its Christian character, should prove how little it valued that religion in the defence and profession of which the victims of the mutiny in India had so gloriously died, and should do this at the very moment when a heathen host was banded against the Christian faith and making martyrs by hundreds if not by thousands. He spoke the voice of the people when he said that this proposal would grate upon their feelings. They would say, "When we see Christianity thus assailed in India, and multitudes of our countrymen rendering up their lives rather than abandon their faith, we are disgusted with the proposal that the Parliament of England should cast off its allegiance to God as revealed to us through our blessed Redeemer." No period could have been more ill-chosen for the introduction of such a measure, and he rejoiced at it, because it would awaken the public mind to a due sense of the inherent vices of the proposal, and to the consequences that must inevitably ensue from its adoption. We had had warnings enough. While that House was discussing the Bill of 1847, the revolution was brewing in France. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter.] He (Mr. Newdegate) was astonished at that expression. Was it possible that the Radical section of the House had become the advocates of despotism. The hon. Member for Sheffield seemed to rejoice at the result of French revolutions, but he, a Tory, regretted that France had lost her constitutional freedom. What was the prelude of that loss? It was that the Parliament of France cast off Christianity
  486
  as its characteristic and profession. The consequences of that step slumbered for sixteen or seventeen years, at the expiration of which time they showed themselves in the overthrow of the constitutional monarchy and the Parliament, which rested on the sandy foundation of those principles which, during the first French Revolution, deified a woman as the goddess of reason. That form of government fell with a crash in 1848, from which the liberties of France had not since recovered. It was strange to hear the hon. Member for Sheffield chuckle when he heard that that great country had by her abandonment of Christianity proved, her incapacity for self-government. History afforded no precedent for the permanence of any form of free institutions, in any country, which, having been Christian, abandoned its Christian character. The Government of Rome became apostate and then fell. So perished the germ of freedom in unhappy Poland. He did not wish to detain the House, but so long as he had a seat there he would not hear a proposal made for the destruction of its Christian character, without entering his protest. There was no instance of a country abandoning Christianity without falling. The Protestant constitution of this country could not be maintained unless the Parliament continued Christian. Protestantism was nothing but Christianity purified; and he could not understand how any man who valued the freedom which we enjoyed, and who admitted, as he believed the noble Lord did admit, that the freedom of our constitution grew out of the reformation of our religion, could make such a proposal as this. The country thanked God that it had a House of Lords to defend it, and that year after year that assembly resisted the endeavours of Members of the House of Commons to sacrifice the fundamental principle of the Government. For the common law of this country was Christian, and the statutes which illustrated and enforced the common law had ever been framed in its spirit by Christian Parliaments, in accordance with that great code of faith and morality which extended in its avowed obligation from the Sovereign on the throne to the meanest of her subjects, and formed the connecting influence of the social compact.
  MR. PEASEsaid, that he rose with much reluctance to express his mind on this subject. He was one of those who desired that that House should always be, as it was always intended to be, Christian; but he took a view of the elements and effects of its Christianity different from that which appeared to be entertained by some hon. Members. He was not so presumptuous as to attempt to follow the hon. and learned Member for Stamford in the remarks which he had made, but he would refer to one observation which had fallen from him with respect to the Christianity of this House. In the course of a former debate upon this subject the hon. and learned Gentleman had reviewed, in a very clear and forcible manner, the various guards which the law had established to preserve the Christianity of Parliament and of the institutions of this country; but he gave to those guards and forms a higher importance than he (Mr. Pease) could allow them. He held that it was the essence of the principles of Christianity permeating through large masses of the population which had caused the House from time to time to establish these forms, and that although the forms should be abolished, this essence or spirit would still preserve the Christianity of the Legislature. He was sorry to say that it was but little that he understood Christianity, but if he understood it at all it was a principle which had no reason to fear the Jew. Were the Jew ten times richer and more learned, and had he ten times more social influence than he was alleged to possess, he thought if the Christian was not able to go down to the rock of his belief and say, "My principle shall outlive your principle, my Christianity shall outlive the dispensation that went before it," there was but little hope for Christianity. He had listened with pain to the small amount of vital power which seemed to be attributed to their religion by the opponents of this measure. There was a time when it was said of what we called the inferior dispensation, "Behold, one shall chase a thousand, and two shall put ten thousand to flight." If we inherited any part of the faith of the martyrs, who were burned ages ago, we might adopt very similar language as to our religion as compared with that of the Jew. He did not say this because he feared the admission of Jews into Parliament. He
  488
  respected the Jew as his neighbour and as his friend, as one who had an equal right with himself to the enjoyment of his own opinions, and as one who had worthily filled many offices of trust, profit, and responsibility; but at the same time he was bound humbly to maintain his own faith, and to desire that it might be spread to Jews also. He would make one remark with regard to what had been said of the noble Lord the Member for the City of London. In the British House of Commons it was not necessary that so humble a voice as his should be heard on behalf of that noble Lord, but it was due to those whom he represented that he should state that they believed the noble Lord to be actuated by motives very different from those which had been attributed to him that evening. If he went into the North of England he should hear it said that the noble Lord had been for ten years, and twice ten years, the steady and uncompromising friend of religious liberty, and that in the year 1857 it was unnecessary to allege such mean and sordid motives as had been insinuated that evening in order to account for his pursuing the only course which, as the consistent Member for the City of London, he could adopt. For himself it was his desire to belong to that large and increasing majority in that House, which desired to do right and feared to do wrong, and of this he was convinced that if they dared, and persevered in daring, to do right in this matter, in spite of whatever the courts of law or any other body might do, they would receive the approbation of the people of England.
  Mr. I. BUTTsaid, that on previous occasions he had voted against similar measures to the present, when they had been introduced. He had voted as he did on former occasions, for the simple reason that he deemed it essential that the Christian character of the nation should be preserved, and he feared that by supporting a measure of this kind he might be interfering with the Christian character of the community. Of the first of these propositions he was as firm a supporter as ever; but he thought that the second step was erroneous, as he had, upon reflection, become convinced that the admission of the Jews would not interfere with that character, and he should therefore now give his vote in support of the proposal of the noble Lord. At the proper time he should be

  489
  ready to justify these views, but let him now warn his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stamford, who seemed to dissent from his proposition—
  SIR FREDERIC THESIGER: I neither said nor did anything which could intimate either dissent or assent.
  MR. BUTT: At all events, he did so when he addressed the Committee. Let him warn his hon. and learned Friend that by arguing that the admission of Jews would unchristianize Parliament he was putting a sword into the hands of those who argued that its Protestantism had been destroyed by the admission of Roman Catholics. He believed that the Christian character of this nation rested upon something very different from a phrase in an Act of Parliament—a phrase from which Rochester did not shrink, and which Gibbon used as glibly as the most pious Christian. It rested primarily upon the prevalence of Christian doctrines and Christian precepts among the mass of the people; and, secondly, upon the result of that prevalence as evidenced by those laws which were inseparably interwoven with our social constitution. So long as we followed the precepts of Christianity in our conduct towards our fellow-men we should better uphold our national character, and set a better example to other nations, than by the retention of a useless phrase, which a man who had no Christianity would use, but from the adoption of which a man of a sensitive conscience might shrink. He did not intend to trespass further on the time of the House, but he did not wish to avoid expressing his opinion, because there was to be no division at the present moment, and when any division should take place he would be found recording his vote in favour of the Bill.
  MR. STANHOPEsaid, that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Pease) had claimed the privilege of doing what he thought right in this question. But there were Members on that side who also claimed such a privilege. However small might be their numbers, they claimed the right of opposing in every manner a Bill which they believed would destroy the Christian character of the House. He had to congratulate the hon. and learned Gentleman who last spoke on the position he had assumed of being doubly right. When he voted against the noble Lord's Bill he conceived him-
  490
  self perfectly right, and now, when about to vote in favour of it, he assumed with the same complacency that he was equally right. He (Mr. Stanhope) doubted if he could have felt so much satisfaction on such an occasion. He believed that, as the hon. Member for North Warwickshire had intimated, they must consider the proposed measure in connection with the future government of India, and with the question how far the support of Christianity was to be the rule there in future. If they once laid it down that Christianity was no longer to be the great rule of action here, they had no right to blame those having the management of India for not sufficiently maintaining Christianity as the basis of their government, or for encouraging, in order to preserve their dominion, the superstition of the Hindoos and the fanaticism of the Mahomedans. The people of this country and their fellow-subjects in India would deem that they were actually establishing a system of hypocrisy if they violated in this country a principle which, it was urged, should be acted on in India, even contrary to the wishes of the inhabitants.
  MR. GRIFFITHsaid, he was unwilling to allow it to be supposed that every Member on the Opposition side of the House was opposed to the noble Lord's measure, which was the culminating point of that edifice of civil and religious liberty which the noble Lord had had the honour of raising in this country. Those who uniformly opposed the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts and the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act might deem it right to resist the present measure, but he was bound by no restrictions of that kind. It was a perversion of the argument to contend for the constitution of that House from a religious point of view; it was the grand council of the nation which was constituted to conduct the business of the nation, and was in fact only a vestry of large calibre for the management of the affairs of that great company Great Britain and Co. It seemed to him that many persons overlooked the deep debt of gratitude which Christianity owed to the Jews as the depositaries of the great portion of the Scriptures; and if they had been extinguished as a nation centuries ago we should be devoid of one of the bulwarks of Christianity, the early history of our religion. That was one

  491
  of the purposes of divine authority, and who were we to question that authority for to pass judgment on that nation? It was scarcely competent for a political assembly, as that House was, to pass sentence on the stupendous sacrifice for which Christianity was distinguished, or to make it a ground for excluding any class of their fellow-subjects from the enjoyment of civil and religious liberty. They must regulate their proceedings by the rules of every-day business. He could never suppose that the presence of one or two gentlemen of high character, and not intolerant—for Jews often subscribed to Christian charities—would unchristianize that House. Many persons who were called Christians could take this oath who could not be universally accepted to fill that character; for even the Mormons called themselves Christians. To be strictly logical, you ought to inquire into the Christian conduct of every Member who was to take the oath, and. which of them could stand that test? In fact, you ought to have a Committee to inquire into the private morals of every hon. Member. In short, this question should be looked at from a political and social point of view, and from every point of view but a religious one.
  MR. WALTERremarked, that he did not rise for the purpose of prolonging the discussion, about which it appeared to him to be difficult to say anything new; but he could not help thinking that the events which were passing around them furnished a singular illustration of the line of argument adopted by hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House. What was it that excited so much alarm in the minds of those hon. Members? Why, that the Bill for admitting the Jews to Parliament would have the effect of destroying the Christianity of the country. Why, that was the very argument used by the Sepoys, who complained that their religion was going to be destroyed by "greased cartridges." What was a religion worth that could be destroyed by such means? But was the apprehension of the Sepoy a bit more irrational than that of hon. Members who thought that Christianity could be destroyed by an Act of Parliament? It was degrading Christianity to make it amenable to any such influence. He always disliked quoting Scripture in that assembly; but there was one passage in
  492
  holy writ which seemed to him to hear so remarkably upon the subject before them, that, with the permission of the House, he would draw their attention to it. He referred to that passage in which the Divine Author of our religion Himself depicted the character of His kingdom. He said—"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Now, without meaning any disrepect, he must be allowed to say that the only functions which the House of Commons had to perform were essentially those of an earthly kingdom. The Christianity of this country depended, not on the House of Commons, but on the personal religion of the individual members of society; and they could no more destroy Christianity by an Act of Parliament admitting Jews or even Mahomedans—if any constituency should be so misguided as to send one to that House—than they unchristianized the country by their admission to society.
  MR. ADAMSsaid, he should not have addressed the Committee but that he felt himself constrained to defend the Committee of last year from the attack which an hon. Member (Mr. Dillwyn) had made on at least a portion of its Members. It was impossible for any Committee to pay more marked attention to any question than they did; and if there were any hon. Gentlemen who did not attend during the whole of the sittings it would hardly be said that doing so was on all occasions necessary to enable Members to arrive at a sound conclusion upon the subject, as the arguments made use of were to a great extent a repetition. He could also advert to hon. Gentlemen who voted in the minority who did not attend all the sittings, but it would be ungracious to do so, and therefore be factious. He believed that the Members on both sides were actuated by conscientious motives, and it was well known that the conclusions the majority arrived at had received the approbation of the most distinguished members of the legal profession. He hoped this would be argued as a great question, and not on individual and personal grounds. It was too vast a question to be so dealt with, and he hoped it would be considered in a manner worthy of the House of Commons, and not in a mere vestry spirit, or

  493
  that any one would be influenced to take a particular course because hon. Gentlemen were threatening ulterior steps. There was enough of English feeling on that side of the House to disregard threats and to enable him to say that if the convictions of hon. Members were not reached they would not be worked upon through their fears. He certainly did not understand the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) to have thrown out the threat imputed to him. He did not understand the noble Lord to threaten them with any abstract Resolution if he did not succeed in his present object. The noble Lord had referred to the possibility of further considering the question if his present proposal failed, but he by no means went to the extent of saying that simply because he could command a majority of that House he would use the influence of his high position to carry by the force of numbers a Resolution that would effect his object. It would have been unworthy of the noble Lord to use such a threat, and because it was unworthy of him he knew well that the noble Lord would not have recourse to it. He was not now discussing the principle of the measure. Other opportunities would be afforded them of doing so, but he must join in the protest that had been uttered by others against the ill-timed introduction of the measure. When it had been determined to enter upon the consideration of other great questions, and especially of one which deeply interested the public mind, he did not see that there was such urgency in the Jewish question as to entitle it to precedence over them all. He would reserve himself for the consideration of the Bill when it came before them; but in the meantime he might say that whatever step was taken he hoped it would be in strict accordance with constitutional usage, and that no violation of the constitution would be recommended by the noble Lord, who had ever been an earnest and eloquent supporter of the constitution in that House. One hon. Member recommended that they should not only proceed by Resolution, but that they should go further and prevent the interference of the courts of law. What! Were they who made the laws to hold forth the example of setting aside the courts of law? Were they to declare by a Resolution that because they disagreed with the Judges as to the state
  494
  of the law, therefore the Judges were not to be permitted to interfere? He begged to remind the House that there never had been a conflict between the courts of law and one branch of the Legislature, in which the law courts had not proved right in the end, or out of which that particular branch of the Legislature had ever come with any increase of honours. Let them endeavour by all constitutional means to alter the law, if alteration it required; but let every such alteration be made by the three estates of the realm, by whom the law was originally framed. Such a course only would redound to the credit of that House and to the honour and welfare of the country.
  MR. DILLWYNexplained, that he had only referred to the conduct of the majority of the Committee because the hon. and learned Member for Stamford had previously referred to the proceedings of the minority.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELL: No hon. Gentleman is more entitled to speak in regard to the conduct of the Committee of last Session than the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just sat down, because the hon. and learned Gentleman made in it a speech of great ability, which I think had a considerable effect on the decision at which they arrived; but when he states that the decision of the majority was supported by the most eminent members of the profession, I must say that there is no one either in the majority of the Committee or out of it more entitled to respect as a member of the profession than the hon. and learned Attorney General. I hold him to be one of the highest authorities whose opinion could be taken on this subject. The hon. and learned Gentleman says I should not have introduced this measure so early in the Session. Now, if I had interfered with the Indemnity Bill, or with the Committee on Commercial Distress and the Bank Act, there would have been some reason for what he had said; but, as no business of very great urgency had been put down for this day, I do not think it can be said that I have interfered with the public business. It must be recollected that the City of London elected a member of the Jewish persuasion to represent them in 1847, and that the question has never yet been finally decided, and therefore, I think, the subject is one on which if a Bill is to be introduced, it ought to be done at as early

  495
  a period as possible of the Session. But, though I have brought forward the question in this short Session, I quite admit the propriety of putting off the second reading of the Bill till we meet again. The hon. and learned Gentleman says this House has suffered in its conflicts with the courts of law. That may be so with regard to some questions of privilege; but with regard to the decisions of courts of law the country might have been still paying ship money, and we might have been still at the mercy of the prerogative of the Crown, if this House had rested satisfied with whatever might be the opinion of the Judges. I hope, then, that this House will not feel alarmed at the prospect of a conflict with the courts of law. An observation has been made during this debate more personal than was necessary, and not over civil, by the hon. Member for West Norfolk (Mr. Bentinck). He said that I was, no doubt, acting under the influence of a great capitalist—by which, no doubt, he meant Baron Rothschild—upon this question. That hon. Member appears not to know the history of this question, and he has evidently not observed that long before the year 1847, whenever this subject was introduced into this House by Sir Robert Grant and others, I always supported the claims of the Jews, and that whenever the Jews asked to be admitted to a full enjoyment of the privileges of the constitution, I have always given my vote in their favour. The hon. Gentleman also omitted to notice that at the last election, so far from any part being taken by Baron Rothschild in my favour, he joined with three others; that the votes of the electors were asked for those four in opposition to myself; and that as far as Baron Rothschild is concerned I should not at this moment be a Member for the City of London. However, the people stood by me, and I am grateful neither to Baron Rothschild nor to the princely merchants of the City. But I am under obligations to the people—to the great body of the citizens of London—who supported me when they thought with me that I was unfairly attacked. The hon. Gentleman's personal observations have, therefore, not much foundation, and his knowledge of the history of this question is evidently very inaccurate. The hon. Gentleman the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) says that I intend that Christianity shall
  496
  no longer be acknowledged in this House as the basis of the constitution, and that I wish to destroy the Christianity of this House. As regards the form of this Bill, I might again quote the words of Mr. Canning, and say, "I am not always bound to find a security for your faith." I have always contended that the Christianity of this House would not be destroyed by admitting the Jews to this House, but that you would give a more striking proof of Christianity by breaking down these barriers than by maintaining them as they stand. I always put this question to hon. Gentlemen who adopt the argument of the hon. Member—"Do you acknowledge this to be a Christian nation? There are 40,000 Jews in it, and if the existence of those 40,000 Jews prevents the existence of a Christian nation, then you are not a Christian nation. But if, although you have 40,000 Jews in this country, it is still a Christian nation, then I ask why the admission of one or two Jews into Parliament would not still leave this a Christian Parliament? "To that question no answer has been given, or can be given. I have always contended that the Christianity of this House is not dependent upon the oath that Bolingbroke and Gibbon have taken, but that it depends upon the personal sentiments of the Members of this House. It is no doubt to be wished that they should be guided by Christian sentiments, but the Christianity of this country is not dependent upon any clause in an Act of Parliament. Having said this much, I do not wish to carry the discussion further; but I will add that the hon. and learned Member for Boston (Mr. Adams) was right in supposing that I said that in case no other constitutional mode should be left, I should think it right to bring before the House for its decision the question upon which the hon. and learned Attorney General has formed a decided opinion, and which he expressed in emphatic terms. That is a matter to be hereafter considered. The question was much debated in Committee, and it is right that the House, in a matter of such grave importance, should come to a decision upon the subject, if no other constitutional course should present itself.
  MR. CONINGHAMsaid, that he was unwilling by silence to let it be supposed that he held any doubtful opinion or was indifferent to the question of the admission of Jews to Parliament, and as the

  497
  representative of a large constituency, he was convinced that he expressed their opinions when he declared that they took the same deep interest in the removal of Jewish disabilities which he himself felt. It was not for him to canvass the reasons that had induced the Government to hand over a measure embodying a vital principle to an independent Member, nor was it for him to raise any objections to the hands in which it was placed; but, as a Member of the Liberal party, he would tell the Government that those who entertained Liberal opinions were carefully watching its proceedings on this Bill, especially as the noble Lord at the head of the Government had not made this a Cabinet question, but had allowed an influential Member of the Cabinet to walk out of the other House without voting. He trusted that Parliament was not about to see a repetition of such a proceeding. The question was not whether Baron Rothschild should be admitted, but whether a man should be excluded from the rights of citizenship so far as they related to a seat in that House for his religious opinions. The removal of these religious disabilities was nothing but a complement to the Reformation achieved some centuries ago, and from what he knew of public opinion on this subject he was certain that in spite of all resistance this question must ultimately be carried to a triumphant issue.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that he had been misrepresented both by the noble Lord the Member for the City, and by the Member for Nottingham. He had never denied that there would be many Christians in the House even if Baron Rothschild were admitted, but what he had maintained was a proposition sanctioned by the highest authority—by the House of Lords—that the admission of Baron Rothschild or any other Jew into that House, would be a violation of its Christian character. So strong was that Christian character that it was contrary to order in that House to speak anything that could be considered blasphemous; and he well remembered that the late Speaker had risen to call a Member to order who was questioning the fundamental truths of Christianity; and the Member at once acknowledged himself out of order. This characteristic of the House must be lost, if Jews, who reject Christ, became Members.
  MR. BENTINCKwished also to explain that the inaccuracy which the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had imputed to him was not in his history, but in the noble Lord's memory. What he said was, that the noble Lord had brought in this measure at a time and under circumstances that rendered it an irregular and, in his opinion, a factious proceeding, and that such a course, when taken by so high an authority as the noble Lord, would lead one to suppose that some pressure from without must have influenced his conduct in so doing.
  MR. STEUARTobserved, that the political argument was stronger than the religious one in dealing with this question, although the opponents of the measure had not taken that ground to any extent. An hon. Member near him (Mr. Griffith) had argued for the admission of the Jews because we had inherited their sacred writings. We might as well argue for the admission of Popish bishops into the House of Lords because we had received some writings from the monks. He protested against the House of Commons being regarded as a great political vestry, but even if it were the political vestry that some represented it, it ought to hesitate before it admitted the Jews. Give the Jew the fullest political and social rights, but his feelings and principles were such that he could not be a useful legislator there. The Jew had higher views and consolations, and, as had been well said, he looked to a greater Exodus than that from Egypt. The hon. Member for Brighton had declared that the country was anxiously watching the conduct of the Government on this subject. He believed, on the contrary, that no question had excited less interest at the last election than the admission of Jews to Parliament. Out of 2,000 electors, not one had asked him what his views were on this question, and he had since asked hon. Members, representing larger constituencies, who had experienced similar results, and therefore he did not think it quite accurate to say that there was any real excitement upon the question among the Liberal party, except among certain Members in that House, and persons who, like Baron Rothschild, were peculiarly interested in it.
  Motion agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Resolution reported.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. FITZROY, Lord JOHN RUSSELL, and Mr. JOHN ABEL SMITH.
  Bill presented, and read 1°.

PUBLIC HEALTH ACT (1848) AMENDMENT BILL—FIRST READING.
MR. COWPER, in moving for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Public Health Act (1848), said, it was the same Bill which was read a first time last Session and could not be proceeded with for want of time. Being anxious that the Bill should not be again exposed to the same fate, he had taken the earliest opportunity to introduce it, and he trusted that the House would be prepared to consider it after the Christmas recess. The general object was to provide that every town in England, great or small, should have the opportunity of acquiring, without any considerable cost or difficulty, a local representative government, armed with sufficient powers to provide structural works and to make all such regulations and arrangements as might be necessary for the sanitary improvement of the inhabitants. The tendency of manufactures and the movement of particular branches of industry caused the rapid growth of towns in places which were previously thinly inhabited. The suburbs of Birmingham, Manchester, and the eastern districts of London had rapidly accumulated very large populations, and it frequently happened that houses were built without method and without under drainage, so that the refuse was carried into some neighbouring ditch, where it remained to create noxious vapours injurious to health. The roads also were not in many parts paved, and yet it was hardly to be expected that any private individual would have so much public spirit as to risk the expense, in case of failure, of an application for a private Act, and therefore these places had no organization at all. Many of the older towns were also desirous of acquiring larger powers than were afforded by the Public Health Act. Both the towns which had and the towns which had not representative government wished to be able to adopt the Public Health Act with greater facilities and with provisions more adapted to their wants. He proposed the intervention of the general board only in cases in which it was necessary to call in an impartial
500
authority to decide questions of disputed boundaries, or where some of the provisions of the Public Health Act had to be modified. The powers to be acquired under this Bill would be for making structural works, borrowing money, supplying water, lighting streets, and providing regulations which were necessary for the good government of these towns. There were some who asked, Why such meddling and such unnecessary interference? The purpose of the meddling was to get rid of the refuse of thousands, which had the effect of substituting disease for health, weakness for strength, and death for life. The number of deaths from preventible causes was estimated at 80,000 a-year, a large proportion of which arose from diseases altogether to be prevented if towns were properly cleansed, and possessed proper sanitary arrangements. It was acknowledged by the highest medical authorities that typhus fever was generated by overcrowding and by noxious exhalations; and in blind purlieus, courts, and alleys, typhus numbered among its victims about 17,000 persons. Other diseases, as erysipelas, consumption, and scrofula, were greatly increased by the same causes. It was admitted that cholera was a disease which could be prevented from assuming a fatal form by cleanliness and care. No better illustration was afforded than by the two towns of Tynemouth and Newcastle. In the interval between the last two visitations of cholera sanitary measures were adopted in Tynemouth, and neglected in Newcastle. At the last visitation the deaths in Newcastle from cholera were 2,000, and in Tynemouth 4, though both towns were similarly situated. Similar results were traceable with regard to pure water. It was found, by comparing the deaths which occurred among the population of London served by the different companies, that those who drank the foul water taken from within the tidal area died in a proportion three and a half times as great as those who drank the pure water which was taken from above the tidal area. Cholera, with diarrhœa and dysentery, destroyed 27,000 annually. In the same way the mortality of infants depended greatly upon the influence of the air they breathed, and Dr. West mentioned that infantile diarrhœa, in the severe form in which it prevailed in the ill-drained parish of Lambeth and other districts on that side

501
of the river was not to be found in the well-drained districts of the metropolis. The mortality from typhus varied wonderfully in different localities. In some registration districts it was found to exist in the proportion of 22 to a given number, whilst in other places the proportion was 209, and diarrhœa and dysentery varied from 4 to 385. There was a tendency in this country for population to gravitate to large towns, and the town population was more unhealthy than that of the rural districts. The mortality in large towns was one-third more than in small towns and rural districts. One cause of the unhealthiness of towns was the difficulty of removing refuse, and decomposition rapidly polluted the air and tainted the water, and then those diseases of which he had spoken frightfully increased. It was therefore incumbent on those who were anxious to maintain the health and morality of the country to give their attention to the sanitary state of towns, and to try to effect those objects which this Bill had in view. He hoped that in the ensuing Session, notwithstanding the vast objects of absorbing interest that would press themselves on the attention of the House, some time might yet be given to that which, though not so attractive or exciting, had a great bearing on the real welfare of the people. The preservation of health was the prerequisite for every good that they could confer on the people; and whilst they took such minute care to preserve property, he trusted they would recollect that to the poor and the rich the most important thing was the preservation of life and health. He would, therefore, conclude by moving for leave to introduce the Bill.
MR. AYRTONsaid, the right hon. Gentleman was under a misapprehension if he supposed that any species of opposition would be offered to any measure that would improve the sanitary condition of the people. No such opposition would be offered provided the Bill were framed in such a manner as would attain the object without infringing on the reasonable liberty of the people of this country. No opposition had been offered last Session to the end which the right hon. Gentleman had in view, but to the means, the indiscreet means adopted. The great objection was to a central authority in London, which should control the free action of the in-
502
habitants of the districts, who were vested with only a moderate power to regulate their affairs, in improving the sanitary condition of the people. If this Bill were consistent with the greatest amount of local power and authority necessary to preserve the sanitary condition of the districts, and with the freedom of the people from arbitrary and despotic interference with their own private action, it would be most cordially supported by those who took an interest in this matter.
SIR ARTHUR ELTONsaid, he thanked the right hon. Gentleman for the clear exposition which he had given of the objects of the Bill. From his own experience, as the head of a local board, he was convinced that it was eminently calculated to further the welfare of the people. It was a poor man's question, for the poor man had no security against the neglect of his landlord to provide for his health and comfort but the law. Though he was a supporter of the principle of local freedom of action, yet he thought there ought to be a power existing somewhere which would set right the wrong-doings of the local authorities, and stir them up when they neglected their duties.
Leave given.
Bill presented, and read 1°.

SIR H. HAVELOCK'S ANNUITY BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that, though he had very frequent occasion to oppose votes of public money, in this instance he felt great pleasure in supporting the proposition of the Government. General Havelock, by his exploits, had covered himself with glory and conferred an inestimable service on his country, and he fully merited all the reward which the Queen and the Legislature could bestow upon him.
  MR. BOWYERsaid, he felt it his duty to take that opportunity of stating, that in his opinion they were dealing very inadequately with the great services of General Havelock. What had General Havelock done? He had performed one of the most gallant services that the military history of the country contained. With small forces he had done what had seemed impossible. He had saved an empire. Now, what were they going to give to General Havelock as a reward

  503
  for his great and heroic services?—a pension of £1,000 a year for his life. Consider what a pension for his life meant. Why, General Havelock was being shot at fifty times a day. What was his life worth? What benefit to his family was it to confer a pension for his life? Such a pension seemed to him to be extremely inadequate. There was a report, which he trusted the Government were in a position to contradict, that General Havelock had been killed. He trusted that was not so, but at any rate his life was in hourly danger. In general the practice was to give a pension to the person who performed the services and one or more of those who succeeded him. It was done in the case of General Lord Gough. He did not wish to underrate that General, but he did not think that the services of General Lord Gough were superior to the services of General Havelock; and even if they had been he thought that they ought rather to abound than to be deficient. He thought that the services of General Havelock were such as well entitled him to a pension for his next successor in the dignity which Her Majesty had conferred on him. They had seen the dignity of baronet conferred on a gentleman because he happened to hold a high civic position at the time that the Prince of Wales was born, and on another gentleman because he had given a dinner to the Emperor of the French. He did not think that any one could say that the honour to General Havelock was at all equal to his merits. Parliament ought, therefore, to be more anxious to see that what had been called the substantial part of his reward should be ample. If no other hon. Member undertook the duty he should himself move in Committee that the pension be continued to the son of General Havelock, himself a gallant officer, whose services had procured him the great distinction of the Victoria Cross.
  SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, he thought that the Government had not conferred sufficient honour or remuneration either on General Havelock or General Wilson. He was quite certain that Parliament would have been heartily glad if greater honour had been done them, and would have been ready to bestow a much larger pension on General Havelock if the Government had proposed it. He might safely say that never in the annals of the British army
  504
  had there been such an example of extraordinary skill and undaunted courage as had been displayed by Sir Henry Havelock in his march to Cawnpore and Lucknow. The same might be said of General Wilson, whose assault on Delhi—a strongly fortified place, garrisoned by 15,000 or 20,000 soldiers—was one of the finest exploits recorded in history. He hoped that the Government would reconsider the propriety of conferring still higher rewards on the men who had saved our Indian Empire. What was £1,000 a-year for life to General Havelock, shut up in Lucknow, with 70,000 men outside the walls, in hourly danger—a position on which no one could think without trembling? His son also was serving in the army with him, and while they were voting this inadequate pension to the General for his life he might at this very moment be no more. He would not say this was a shameful way of rewarding him, but certainly it was not a proper way. The fact was, however, that officers, who devoted then-whole lives to the service of their country were, generally speaking, not sufficiently rewarded for their services—certainly not those who served in India. His gallant relative fought two great battles and conquered a kingdom, and what was the reward he got? Her Majesty took a bit of red ribbon off his neck and put it over his shoulder—that was all he got, not a farthing of pension. General Havelock had not been properly rewarded, he repeated. How had the last batch of Peers got their honours? One was made a Peer because he was father-in-law to a Duke; another because he was brother to a Marquess, and a third because he had written a book. He believed if they polled the whole population of England the unanimous opinion would be that General Havelock ought to be made a Peer, at all events. General Keane was made a Peer for his military services; but did he perform half the military services that General Havelock had rendered? So, too, was Gough. He, it was true, was Commander in Chief; but Havelock excelled every man of whom he (Sir C. Napier) had ever heard. General Havelock had gained more victories in a few weeks than were won in the whole Peninsular campaign; and now, with only between 2,000 and 3,000 men under his command, he was menaced with 70,000. It was true they were but

  505
  comparatively small battles, but his forces were also small. He and General Wilson had performed some of the most extraordinary marches, and that too under a tropical sun, while thousands of men on their way from this country to India to reinforce them had been tossed about at sea for weeks and months in sailing vessels, who might have been conveyed to their destination by steam-ships without any unnecessary loss of time. He would read to the House a copy of a letter which appeared in The Times of that day, and was written in Calcutta on the 1st of November:—
  "The sailing troop -ships Nile, Areta, Barham, Ulysses, and Surrey, are all that have yet arrived of those which left England with troops in June and July.
  "The steamers Golden Fleece, Sydney, and Australian, which left England on the 14th and 15th of August, and the steamer Thebes, which sailed on the 31st of July, have arrived.
  "The Golden Fleece brought a complete regiment (Her Majesty's 34th) in perfect comfort, without a sick man, in sixty-eight days.
  "Would it not be as well to keep up twelve or twenty such ships in Her Majesty's Navy expressly as steam troop transports for the relief or reinforcements which may be required for the colonial, Indian, or war service of England? The advantages would be,—firstly, a whole regiment is transported complete in all parts and ready to act together. There have been some portions of Her Majesty's regiments here for six weeks, the other portions of which have not arrived. Secondly, the greater speed and greater certainty would enable more correct calculations of periods of arrival and of movements dependent on them. Had the soldiers despatched in June, July, and August in sailing vessels been sent by steamers, ten regiments might have been here and marched up on the 1st of October, instead of one so marched up then; and on this date such ten regiments might have been at Cawnpore. Thus, instead of the hard and desultory fighting in Oude now going on with some peril to the besieged garrison, the whole of our force could have been employed in such strength as to crush and destroy the enemy by a complete and overwhelming blow."
  It would be in the recollection of the House that in June last both he himself and an hon. Member on the opposite benches—a man who had had great experience in navigating the Indian seas—urged the necessity of employing steam-vessels in preference to sailing ships in conveying the troops then about to be sent out to India. They were, however, overruled, for the First Lord of the Admiralty, and he believed the Secretary too, stood up and told the House that sailing vessels would perform the voyage as soon as steam-vessels. He (Sir Charles Napier) asked, had they done so? He had read
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  them a communication showing that sailing vessels had not arrived in the same time, nor anything like it. The steamers had arrived at their destination in five or six weeks shorter time on an average than the sailing vessels. He said that was a grievous error on the part of the Admiralty, and it was a fit subject for the House to inquire whether the country was ruled by people who understood their business or by those who did not. He admitted that after they opened their eyes—which it took them a precious long time to do—the Admiralty made the greatest efforts to repair the blunder they had committed, as did also the Prime Minister, the Secretary for War, and the rest of the Government. He did not blame the noble Lord at the head of the Government for not sending the troops across the Isthmus of Suez, as some had urged him to do, inasmuch as he could never calculate upon what number of sailing vessels could be got there for conveying them on to India. This led him to another question. It was stated the other night elsewhere that one reason why the troops were not sent out to India in men-of-war was that officers in the navy had a great disinclination for such a service. That feeling might prevail among them to a certain extent. He could understand a captain of a man-of-war disliking, under ordinary circumstances, to carry troops in a fully-manned ship to Portsmouth or Plymouth; but in such a crisis as this Indian rebellion he did not know a captain in the navy who would not have been delighted to sail to India on such a service. If they were to land her marines, and take out her lower-deck guns, such a ship as the Duke of Wellington, for instance, would carry 1,000 or 1,200 troops out with all the ease in the world. Why, then, had that not been done? It was not the fault of the Government; it was the fault of the House of Commons and those hon. Gentlemen who led it. After the Crimean war was over the universal opinion of the House was, that we should keep up our army and navy, and never let them be reduced so low again. When Parliament met in 1857 we had a navy on the home station of ten sail of the line, and a disposable army. But the dissolution of Parliament was decided on, and then arose the cry of retrenchment. And who raised that cry? First of all, the noble Lord the Member

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  for the City of London (Lord John Russell), then the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), and then the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli). It was those three distinguished individuals who raised the cry of economy and retrenchment, and he (Sir Charles Napier) remembered standing up in his place and doing the best he could to dissuade the noble Lord at the head of the Government from being led away by it. The noble Lord did not choose to take his advice. He (Sir Charles Napier) supposed, like all Ministers, he had a certain degree of fear that he might lose his place. What, then, did the House do? "Why, they paid off the navy by wholesale—discharging marines, seamen, boys, almost everybody, in fact, connected with the service, right and left. If those ships had not been paid off, in something like forty-eight hours any one of the men-of-war on the home station could have been prepared to sail with 1,200 troops; and let the House conceive, what would have been the effect in Calcutta if a squadron of ten or twelve sail of the line, each conveying 1,000 or 1,200 soldiers, had arrived there? Its salute would have been heard all over India, and produced the most salutary effect on the Native population. He did not mean to say that Cawnpore might have been saved; but what would have been the result in the garrison at Lucknow, the very next news from which might be—but God forbid that it should be so—that our whole army there had been destroyed, and the women and children butchered? Before, however, so horrible a tragedy should be committed with innocent women and children as was enacted at Cawnpore, he trusted General Havelock would have sufficient courage to place them on his magazine and blow the whole of them up. No English General ever would permit women, still less his own countrywomen and their children, to be so outraged if he himself had the means of terminating their lives at once. The General in command there would take the whole responsibility of such a last resource upon himself, fearful as it might be, and would fight to the last moment, as would every soldier under his command, rather than that a single woman or child should be touched by such infernal villains. The last news from
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  Lucknow was that the garrison were short of provisions, and that they were obliged to kill their own gun-bullocks. What of that? Rather than that the people about him should starve for want of food, if he were General Havelock, he would kill every Hindoo that came in his way and eat him. [Great laughter.] Hon. Members might laugh; he spoke his own sentiments. A bit of a Hindoo would certainly not be a very agreeable meal; but he would destroy every one of them rather than allow a single hair of the head of any woman or child to be touched by such inhuman ruffians. He trusted, however, they would soon have better news from Lucknow than the last, and that Almighty Providence, which had done so much for us already in this crisis, and a great deal more than we had done for ourselves, would protect our unfortunate countrymen and women, and that General Havelock would still be able to hold his own.
  Mr. P. O'BRIENsaid, as this was an occasion when the House was called upon to pay a tribute of respect and admiration to a distinguished individual, he ventured to rise merely as a representative from a particular portion of the empire, in order that the people of Ireland might be understood as joining in the general feeling of admiration of the gallantry displayed by the heroic man who was the subject of this discussion. He would willingly support the proposition to prolong the grant if such a Motion were consistent with the rules of the House, which, however, he was told was not the case. But it was not by any money test that the value of the services of such a man could be ascertained, and the expressed feelings of the House and the country could not fail to be highly gratifying to him who was the object of such praise. At the same time, without seeking to detract from the greatness of the service performed by Sir H. Havelock, he might observe that there were not only other generals, but also soldiers in a humbler sphere, who also had a right to the consideration of the House and of the country. He trusted, therefore, that while they were rewarding General Havelock, they would not forget that there were others also who were entitled to their highest gratitude. Some of these men were unfortunately now no more, but he trusted the House would forgive him as he was induced to make that

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  remark from the recollection of one now no more, who had been his contemporary and friend—the gallant Nicholson; a man who by his great mind and powerful energy had been enabled to enlist in our cause the Sikh nation, and had thereby been our salvation in India. To him was due the suppression of the Sealcote mutiny, and by him, in conjunction with Sir H. Lawrence, the important district of the Punjab was preserved free from any further taint of rebellion. The widowed mother of that gallant officer was now residing in a northern town of Ireland, having previously lost a son in the Affghan war, while a third son had lost his arm in the attack upon Delhi. He (Mr. O'Brien) would be wanting in his duty if, at a time when those honours were being paid which were valued by high-spirited men more than mere money, he had not come forward, as an Irish gentleman, to state facts which would insure to that poor lady in her affliction the consoling thought that her gallant son's services had elicited the enthusiastic approbation of an assembly of English gentlemen. He thought honour was due to all brave men—generals, subalterns—down to Private Scully, who, at the hazard of his life, fired the train which blew up the gates of Delhi.
  SIR HARRY VERNEYsaid, that while concurring in everything that had been said with respect to the bravery of our gallant defenders in India, and in the expediency of acknowledging their most important services, he must yet remind the House that they were assembled that night for the express purpose of considering the particular case of General Havelock. This short debate, however, would not be without its use, if it showed Her Majesty's Ministers that if they thought fit to extend rewards such a measure would meet with the highest approbation of the House and the country. Without wishing for a moment to detract from the merits of a single man who had been mentioned, he asked the gallant Generals who had spoken whether a case in which an officer had shown great talents in the field in moving large bodies of troops was not a case of superior skill than was evinced in attacking fortresses, however gallant and however successful such attacks might be? Was it not, therefore, a case of special service where an officer had
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  evinced great military talents in moving armies over a great space of country under circumstances of appalling difficulty; and did not such conduct call for particular admiration and reward on the part of Her Majesty? In this case, the gallant Havelock was between sixty and seventy years of age, so that in any case the proposed reward was but a very small one. No doubt it was wise in the Government to study economy in such matters, until they had tested the feeling of the representatives of the people; it was evincing a good discretion not to come to the House for a very large reward. But when the universal opinion of the House and of the people had been so loudly expressed as it had been in this case, he thought that it would be their pleasure, as their duty, to increase that reward.
  MR. CLAYsaid, he was willing to accept the reward now offered to General Havelock as an instalment of future honours; and he was quite sure that the House of Commons would accede at any time to pecuniary rewards which Her Majesty thought ought to be offered to such gallant men. Having said thus much, he must say that he could not hear the services of a very eminent man derided by any hon. Member speaking of him as a man who had received a peerage for writing a book. It must be remembered that there were other services worthy of record besides military services. The proceedings of the House of Commons had been rendered more illustrious than ever by the graphic pen of the historian; and he believed that the advice to Her Majesty, in consequence of which Mr. Macaulay was made a Peer, was advice which was quite in accordance with the wishes of the people.
  CAPTAIN SCOTTsaid, he rose as a friend of the Havelock family, and one who had served for twenty years in the same regiment with the late Colonel W. Havelock, to express his cordial concurrence in the praise which had been bestowed on the gallant General. He came of a race of heroes. His brother, who might be known to some as the "fair-haired boy," was he who saved a division of the Duke of Wellington's army, and for that service he was rewarded with a lieutenant colonelcy in the 14th Light Dragoons, and who finally lost his life at Ramnuggur. He (Captain

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  Scott) had addressed the House because the Havelock family might have considered it extraordinary if he had not expressed his disappointment and dissatisfaction with this life annuity to be granted to Sir Henry Havelock. He must express his disappointment at the inadequate reward to be bestowed upon that gallant officer. The family of the Havelocks was not a wealthy family. The late Colonel W. Havelock had nothing but his pay to depend upon, and he believed Sir Henry Havelock had nothing more, having for many years remained a subaltern, which he would not have done had he been possessed of means to enable him to purchase his steps. Upon his death the value of his commission would be lost, as in the case of his brother, and his family would lose the benefit of the annuity now proposed to endure only during the lifetime of Sir Henry Havelock. His son, a young man in the army, was probably dependent upon his pay, and at the death of his father he would find himself hampered with a title with nothing but his pay to support it. Under these circumstances he thought it very hard that the annuity should not pass for two lives.
  SIR FREDERICK SMITHsaid, that as a military man he should be sorry to give a silent vote upon this interesting question. In common with his brother officers he looked upon the conduct of Sir Henry Havelock as an honour to the British nation, and as forming one of the brightest pages in our history. He was sure that the Government, in recognition of such gallant services, seeing. the sense of the House and the feeling of the public, would be inclined to deal in a liberal spirit as regarded money matters with Sir H. Havelock. If he should be spared, as God grant he might be, he had no doubt that further honours would be in store for General Havelock; for he was satisfied that nothing could surpass the conduct of that officer and of General Wilson. As other names had been mentioned, he might be allowed to say that in his opinion there was no record of any siege in modern times at all to be compared, either with respect to the difficulties to be overcome or the success of the operations, to the siege of Delhi. It had been attacked by a force sometimes not exceeding 2,500, although it possessed a population
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  of a warlike character to the amount of 100,000, and actual defenders to the number of 50,000 or 60.000. We might gather what had been at all times the warlike character of the inhabitants of Delhi from the exploits of Tamerlane, who had prefaced his operations against the city nearly 500 years ago by massacring in cold blood 100,000 Hindoo prisoners, and by the difficulties experienced by Nadir Shah somewhat more than three centuries later. He certainly must say that the success of the recent siege appeared to him to be marvellous, considering that our men were decimated by disease, and were suffering from the heat of the climate, from sun-stroke, from cholera, and from hard work. All military men agreed that there was no instance of such a siege being undertaken except by regular parallels and under cover of regular approaches; but General Wilson had adopted the bold, daring, and dangerous measure of establishing batteries in the open air, as it was termed, the last battery being actually within 150 yards of the place. There was nothing on record equal to that. He made a breach in the walls and stormed the place without those supports which all military men thought to be necessary. The General, however, was moved by moral and political reasons which were superior to all other considerations. We might have the whole of North-Western India against us, if the place were not taken, and he knew the importance of striking a bold and decisive blow at once, when delay would have been utter ruin. To give an idea of the desperate nature of the attack, it was enough to state that of the engineers engaged in it ten fell in the storming party, including the gallant Salkeld, who was first at the Cashmere Gate, and the no less gallant Home and Hovenden. All these had been pupils of his (Sir F. Smith's), and he need not say that he was proud of his scholars. The last-named officer, having been only shot in the leg, had written to him with his usual spirit. "I got a brick of a grenadier to lift me on his shoulders and carry me in." I will only mention one fact more to show the desperate and determined nature of this assault. Of the eighteen ladders that advanced with the Second Column, five were knocked over at the glacis, and of the ninety men who were carrying them thirty were killed

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  or wounded, and there were not sufficient men to form skirmishers to the ladder party, or to support it. Such were some of the details of the desperate attack made by the gallant Wilson upon Delhi, the success of which was fraught with such vital consequences to our cause.
  MR. RICHARDSONsaid, he rose to express his belief that there was not an Irishman whose heart would not beat and whose eye would not glisten as he heard recorded the brilliant achievements of the gallant man to whom the Government now proposed to grant a pension of £1,000 a-year. He must say that he looked upon that pension as quite inadequate, and when they considered that at that moment General Havelock might be no more, and that his family were not in affluent circumstances, he thought that it was the duty of the Government to provide for the family in case of a fatal casualty arising to the General. The East India Company had set a very good example in this respect, having determined that Lady Neill should receive a pension of £500 a-year, and Mrs. Nicholson, the mother of the late General, a like amount. He should be glad to see that example followed in the present instance. He could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford that it was improper for Members of that House to interfere with these questions, on the ground that they appertained to the prerogative of the Crown. He considered it to be a most important part of their duty to express their approval of measures of this nature, and he thought that the circumstance that the people had at all times the right of expressing their opinion upon such subjects constituted a strong link between the people and the Sovereign.
  MR. GRIFFITHsaid, that a step in the right direction had been taken by allowing the widows of officers to assume the same title that they would have had if the officers had themselves survived to enjoy the honours; and he thought that the example which had been set by the East India Company of giving pensions to the widows of deceased officers who fell in the execution of their duty might very properly be followed by the Government. This observation appeared to him to be particularly applicable to the
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  present case, for General Havelock—to whose heroism and intrepidity they were paying a tribute—might be at that moment beyond the influence of earthly reward and earthly praises. In such a case he was sure that it would only be in accordance with the wishes of the Sovereign that an annuity—either of one-half that conferred on the husband, or of some other amount—should be bestowed upon the widow; and, seeing the strong feeling that there was in the House upon the subject, he hoped that the Government would introduce some provision of that nature.
  Bill read 2°, and committed for Tomorrow.
  House adjourned at half after Eight o'clock.

MINUTES.
1a Trustees Relief; Transfer of Estate Simplification.
2a Bank Issues Indemnity.

BANK ISSUES INDEMNITY BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, he believed there had been a general understanding that the discussion upon this Bill should take place upon the third reading, and therefore he now proposed that the Bill be read a second time and that any debate upon it should take place to-morrow.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he was not present upon the occasion when the presumed understanding was come to, but he had no desire to interfere with it. It was very important that the Bill should not be allowed to pass without being discussed, but at the same time he had no wish at all to impede a measure which he believed was but an act of justice to the Bank Directors and the Government. He, however, would avail himself of the present opportunity of calling the attention of the Government to a part of the Bill of which, as he conceived, some explanation was necessary; he referred to that part of the Bill which required that the rate of discount should be kept up during the whole period of the suspension of the Act of 1844 to a minimum of 10 per cent. He could understand that at the period when the suspension took place it might have been quite proper and necessary to make that requisition; but it was different when they were passing an Act, not merely of indemnity, but for continuing the suspension of the Act of 1844 for twenty-eight days after the meeting of Parliament in February. The continuance of so high a rate of interest after the absolute necessity for it had passed away was most undesirable, as tending to prevent the restoration of public confidence and to inflict great and perhaps undeserved suffering upon the smaller class of traders. He was not prepared to move any amendment upon the point, but he thought the Government would act wisely in leaving a discretionary power to the Bank of England, instead
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  of prescribing an absolute restriction for two months longer. If the Government should press the provision to which he had referred, he hoped at least they would be prepared to give some explanations of the reasons which induced them to take that course.
  Bill read 2a (according to order); Committee negatived, and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

TRANSPORT OF TROOPS TO INDIA.

  CORRESPONDENCE MOVED FOR.
  VISCOUNT DUNGANNON, in moving for Copies of any Correspondence that may have taken place during the present year between the East India Directors and the Board of Control relative to the Transmission of Troops to India, observed that he did not seek to inquire into the question whether the Government had commenced sufficiently early to send out reinforcements to India, but he wanted to know why, when the necessity for reinforcements was admitted by them, they had not adopted means to forward the troops with the utmost expedition. It appeared that a passage through France had been offered by the Emperor Napoleon, but it had not been accepted, neither had a similar offer on the part of the Sultan. Troops were sent in sailing ships, which by some peculiar mode of reasoning were conceived by the Government to be a quicker mode of transit than steamers. There was an impression among the public that the best means had not been adopted to forward reinforcements. If that impression was erroneous, the public should be disabused of it; and the best way in which that could be done was by the production of the documents relating to the subject. If, on the other hand, the public impression was incorrect, it became the imperative duty of Parliament to ascertain on whom the blame rested.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the noble Lord was probably not aware that a Committee was about to be moved for in the other House to investigate the whole question, and that the Government, who were only desirous that the fullest inquiry should take place, would assent to its appointment. All the correspondence which had passed between the Board of Control and the Court of Directors of the East India Company respecting the transmission of troops would be laid before that Committee; and, under these

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  circumstances, perhaps the noble Lord would not press his Motion, as the object he had in view would be fully answered by this proposed inquiry.
  In answer to Viscount DUNGANNON,
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he wished to be understood as saying that the Committee would have power to call for the papers if it chose, but he could not pledge himself that they would be required.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

THE INDIAN MUTINY—OBSERVATIONS.
VISCOUNT MELVILLEsaid, there was a point which had not been sufficiently alluded to, on which it was desirable they should have some information. It was extraordinary that the local Government should have had no information of an organized mutiny such as that which had broken out in India. He believed it was perfectly well known that the revolt was to commence all over the country on a certain day; but owing to some misunderstanding it broke out a day or two too early at Meerut, otherwise the disasters we had now to deplore would have been far greater. He was told that information of the intended mutiny had been communicated to the Indian Government by indigo merchants, and even by officers of the army; but it seemed that the letters containing this information were totally disregarded, and not even answered by the Government. The signal for the outbreak went through the land like the fiery cross of old without the local Government taking the slightest notice of it, or making any preparations for putting down the movement, and, as soon as it began, they seemed to be taken entirely by surprise. He hoped Her Majesty's Government would give some explanation to the House on this important subject. The local Government ought to tell them what information they had received, and whether, on receiving it, they made immediate preparations for strengthening their means of defence.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he admitted the necessity of a full inquiry; but at this moment it was premature to urge such an investigation.
LORD MELVILLEexplained, that he did not blame Her Majesty's Government for anything which had occurred, because he believed they acted as promptly
450
as they could do after receiving intelligence of the revolt, but he found fault with the local Government for not attaching due weight to the information which was communicated to them.
EARL GRANVILLEwas understood to say, that Her Majesty's Government were not aware of the exact nature of the information which the local Government of India had received, and that he was, therefore, unable to give a definite answer to the question of the noble Lord.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, this was a subject which could not be dealt with lightly; but at the present moment, when we were engaged in repressing and putting down the mutiny, it would be premature, and perhaps injurious, to inquire what information had been received by the Government as to the causes of the mutiny. When, however, the revolt had been put down, it would be the bounden duty of Parliament to inquire into its causes; and, moreover, to satisfy themselves and the country whether the Government had, in point of fact, received any information which would have enabled them to make more complete preparations than they had done, and what use was really made of such information.

ASSASSINATION OF MR. SULLIVAN, BRITISH MINISTER AT PERU.
THE EARL OF POWIS, in rising to put to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the question of which he had given notice,—What information the Government had received concerning the Assassination of our Minister at Peru, and what Steps they had taken in the Matter—said, it was necessary for him to bring to their Lordships' recollection the extraordinary circumstances under which that act was perpetrated, but he might observe that it was an act in which not merely the feelings of that gentleman's family and friends were concerned, but one which, for the sake of the community at large, should not be allowed to pass over without some satisfaction being given; because the efficiency of all our diplomatic relations rested mainly on the principle of personal security, which, by the common consent of all nations, was observed as regarded the accredited representatives of other countries. He hoped the noble Earl would state what information he had received on the subject, and what steps had been taken to procure the conviction of the

451
persons guilty of the murder, and that Her Majesty's Government would not allow their efforts to be thwarted by the transatlantic indifference for human life, or by the proverbial procrastination of Spanish justice.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, it was in the month of August last that we received from our Consul at Lima an account of the murderous attack made upon Mr. Sulivan. On the day following that on which he was attacked Mr. Sulivan died, having suffered great agony from the wounds which he received. It appears that he was struck by the assassin while at dinner with his secretary and other persons. The assassin escaped. Mr. Sulivan, before his death, said he did not believe he had an enemy in the world; and the general opinion there was that he had not an enemy in Peru, for there never was a more amiable or good-natured man, or one who was less likely to give offence to any person. The assassin appeared to have had accomplices waiting outside Mr. Sulivan's residence, and with them he escaped beyond the city. I must do the Peruvian Government the justice to say that nothing could exceed the feeling which they manifested at this most atrocious murder, or the activity which they showed in adopting measures for the detection of the perpetrator. The Peruvian Minister of Foreign Affairs was, at his own request, the chief mourner at Mr. Sulivan's funeral, and both by written communications and verbal ones through the representative of Peru in this country, the Peruvian Government have expressed their deep regret at the occurrence, and informed us that they have good reason to believe that a foreigner was the actual perpetrator of the murder, and that there is no reason to think that he was actuated by any political motives. Believing that they knew where the man was concealed, a police force had been sent out into the country in pursuit of him; but whether it has been successful in its search we do not know; but it seems that one of his accomplices has been recognised by a servant of the late Mr. Sulivan, and has been made prisoner. The Peruvian Government offered in the first instance a reward of 3,000 dollars for the apprehension of the murderer; that sum had since been increased to 10,000 dollars, and we have ourselves offered £300. The belief
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of the Peruvian Government is, that they will be able to arrest the assassin. I must say we have no fault to find with that Government on the subject, for they have done all that lies in their power to bring the man to justice.

BANKS OF IRELAND AND SCOTLAND.
LORD MONTEAGLE, in rising to move for Accounts showing the Circulation and Bullion of the Banks of Ireland and Scotland, said, that the object which he had in doing so was to obtain accurate information upon the subject on the bullion withdrawn from the Bank of England for the Scotch and Irish banks. It appears that the monetary pressure which had recently prevailed in England had been attributed by some persons to the system upon which the banks in Ireland and Scotland had been conducted. In dealing with this question, he would not say a word with regard to Scotch banking, as there were noble Lords present who were more familiar with that part of the subject than he could pretend to be. He would confine his observations to the management of the banking establishments in Ireland, although he was of opinion that whatever he might have to say respecting the law regulating those establishments might also, mutatis mutandis, be applied to banks in Scotland. Of the banks in Ireland he believed he might assert, without fear of contradiction, that to the manner in which they had been of late conducted, no part of the inconveniences which had arisen on this side of the water could with justice either directly or indirectly be attributed. It had, however, been stated, with some degree of truth, that to a limited extent a pressure had been produced upon the banks of this country in consequence of demands for gold made upon them from Ireland and Scotland. This could only have taken place so far as the Scotch and Irish banks were holders of Bank of England securities. He wished, however, to protest against the supposition that, so far at least as Ireland was concerned, such pressure had been the result of indiscreet trading or of injudicious banking operations. During the recent crisis, though their operations had been subjected to a severe test, arising out of the state of things here, and though some demand for gold had been the result,

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there yet had not been an instance in Ireland of suspension of payment upon the part of even a single bank, or scarcely the suspension of payments of any commercial house. He was not, however, prepared to deny that the state of the law in respect to banking transactions between England and Ireland was such as to require alteration. When his noble Friend (the late Lord Spencer) introduced his Bill commonly called the Bank Charter Act of Lord Grey's Government, he introduced a clause which he very erroneously and very unscientifically described as a legal tender clause. That designation, unexplained, would seem to imply that Lord Spencer had sanctioned the principle that, without qualification or restriction, the Bank of England notes were to be made a legal tender. Such a step, however, would have been entirely contrary to the opinions uniformly entertained by Lord Spencer. What that nobleman did assume was, that a banknote convertible on demand into gold was equivalent to gold so long as the convertibility was strictly and practically maintained, and was capable of legal enforcement. Upon that assumption, therefore, a clause was introduced making a Bank of England note a legal tender, but with one most material exception—it was in all cases except on the part of the Bank of England itself, which continued bound to pay in gold, if gold was demanded. Such was the strict limitation which Earl Spencer maintained, and their Lordships would observe that so long as the Bank of England were bound to pay their notes on demand in specie, and so long as that promise to pay was strictly performed, it could be no breach of faith or violation of principle that parties indebted should have an option of paying either in specie, or in notes, which, being convertible on demand, were equivalent to specie. But to show with what strictness Lord Spencer carried out that view, he introduced into the very clause in question a further limitation, reciting that these Bank of England notes should not serve as a legal tender except so long as the Bank paid its notes in coin. The instant there was an interruption in such specie payment the power of discharging public or private obligations by notes was to cease. The Bank of England note, if inconvertible by the Bank, forfeited its privilege. This had been the state of the law in relation to Bank of England
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notes throughout England and Wales from the passing of Lord Spencer's Act. But the clause of the Act was somewhat ambiguously worded. It did not appear from the language of the clause that its operation was to be confined within England and Wales, or whether, although the general enactments were so limited, that special clause did embrace Scotland and Ireland likewise. This question was subsequently raised. About the year 1837 a considerable failure occurred in Ireland—that of an establishment called the Agricultural and Commercial Bank—a bank exceedingly ill-managed, and which deserved to fall. He (Lord Monteagle) was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, and application was made to him, on the part of the Irish banking interest, respecting the applicability of the legal tender clause to banking transactions in Ireland. He took the opinion of the law officers of the Crown on the subject, and it was their opinion that the clause in question did not apply to Ireland. Although unable to give the relief asked for, arrangements were made by the Treasury of the day which gave currency to Bank of England paper by accepting it when paid for revenue in Ireland, and by so doing thus afforded very great relief to the existing pressure. So the law stood until the Government of Sir Robert Peel in 1845 (the year after the passing of the last Bank Charter Act) introduced two Bills for Ireland and Scotland, into the former of which a clause was inserted, reciting that doubts had been entertained with respect to the applicability to Ireland of the legal tender clause in the original Act, and declaring and enacting that Bank of England notes should not be received as a legal tender in that country. That was the state of the law at the present moment, and what was the consequence? Why, that at any time of general pressure, like that which had lately taken place, there must be imposed upon the central point from which all monetary transactions proceeded, an augmented pressure, and considerable sums of specie must inevitably be exported from England to meet the demands of Ireland and Scotland. It was the object of the papers for which he intended to move to exemplify the extent to which these transactions had in the present year been carried. Had the legal tender clause extended over the whole kingdom, the difficulties arising out of the Scotch and Irish

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demand for gold might to some extent have been met by a transmission of convertible Bank of England paper in the place of specie. In that case we might have realized with respect to Ireland and Scotland the benefits extended to England by Earl Spencer's clause; and he was at a loss to know what earthly reason operated to require a different rule in Waterford and Glasgow from that which prevailed at Bristol and Liverpool. All the witnesses who had been examined before the Commons' Committee last year, seem to have recommended the extension of the legal tender clause to Scotland and Ireland. The only objection which could be raised was, that the legal tender clause in Ireland and Scotland would not produce the same benefits, owing to the existence there of a small note circulation. Now, he admitted that the effect of the law might not be exactly the same in these countries, but he could not understand how any one could doubt that it would, as far as it went, be productive there of good. It was a curious phenomenon that, throughout the late banking crisis, in the south of Ireland (he could speak of that district from his own experience, but he believed that what he was about to say would apply equally to the other parts of Ireland) there had not been the least pressure with respect to the note circulation. He was inclined to attribute this withdrawal of deposits to the losses sustained by the depositors with that most fraudulent establishment, Mr. John Sadleirs Tipperary Bank. The demand of the people was for their deposits, and it did not seem to matter whether these were paid in gold or in notes. There was another remedy suggested, namely, the abolition of the small note circulation; but into the merits of this proposal he would not now enter. The question was one too large to be discussed incidentally. For the present he would confine himself to moving for returns showing the circulation and bullion of the banks of Ireland and Scotland, in continuation of returns previously made on the same subject. The noble Lord then moved for a
"Return showing the authorized Issues of the Notes of the Private and Joint Stock Banks in England and Wales, and the actual Amount issued; also the authorized Issues of the Banks in Scotland and Ireland, the actual Amounts issued, and the Amounts of Bullion held by those Banks respectively, in each Week from
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the 9th May, 1857, up to the latest Period to which the Account can be made up (in continuation of Appendix No. 17 to the Commons Report on Bank Acts, No. 198, 1857)."
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, there was no objection to the production of the Returns for which the noble Lord had moved, as they were mere continuations of Returns which had been laid before the Bank Committee of last year. His noble Friend had dwelt with very just satisfaction upon the manner in which the commercial and banking transactions of Ireland had been maintained during the recent crisis. At the same time, considerable inconvenience was occasioned to the Bank of England by the great demand for gold which was made at a time of pressure, in order to enable the banks of Ireland and Scotland to meet their small note circulation; and undoubtedly that inconvenience would be obviated to a great extent by making Bank of England notes a legal tender in those countries. The objections to such a measure had, however, originated with the bankers of those countries, who were afraid that their own issues might be superseded by Bank of England notes. He agreed with his noble Friend that it was most desirable that the Government should seriously consider whether some alteration of the existing law in this respect might not be made.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at" Six o'clock, 'till To-morrow, half-past Pour o'clock.