Sitting of 10 August 1857

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2° Joint Stock Companies Act (1856) Amendment.
3° Ecclesiastical Commission, &c.; Dulwich College.

THE THAMES CONSERVANCY BILL.

  LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
  Order for the consideration of the Lords' Amendments read.
  SIR JAMES DUKEsaid, he would take the opportunity of protesting against this measure being carried through as a private

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  instead of a public Bill. From this reason hon. Members had not had an opportunity of objecting to any portions of it, and he had many complaints made to him respecting various provisions of the Bill.
  SIR JOHN SHELLEYsaid, he agreed with his hon. Friend that this Bill should have been a public and not a private Bill, and that it contained many objectionable features.
  MR. BRISCOEremarked that he was of the same opinion.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, he begged to remind the hon. Member that they were not then discussing the principles of the Bill, but simply considering the Lords' Amendments.
  Lords' Amendments agreed to.

OATHS TAKEN BY MEMBERS.

  COMMITTEE.—REPORT.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELLbrought up the Report of "the Select Committee appointed to consider whether the Act 5 &, 6 will. IV., c. 63, is applicable to oaths appointed by law to be taken by Members of this House at the table previous to taking their seats."
  The Report was read by the Clerk at the table as follows:—
  "The Committee have considered the matters referred to them. The following Resolution was proposed by a Member of the Committee:—
  "'That, in the opinion of this Committee, the House of Commons is included within the following words of the 8th section of the 5 & 6 Will. IV., c. 62—that is to say—'All bodies now by law or statute or by any valid usage authorized to administer and receive any oath.'
  "Upon deliberation the Resolution was passed in the negative."
  LORD JOHN RUSSELL: Sir, in moving that this Report be laid upon the table, I beg leave to say, as I may be asked a question on the subject, that at this late period of the Session I do not propose to go on with the Oaths Validity Bill. I intend to move that that order be discharged; but, at the same time, I wish to say that this subject is in that state that I think it will be necessary for Parliament to consider it at the very commencement of next Session. I beg leave to move that the order be discharged, and I give notice that I shall, early next Session, bring under the consideration of Parliament the question of the oaths taken by Members of Parliament.
  Report to lie on the Table.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he believed the noble Lord the Member for the City of London, in presenting the Report of the
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  Committee upon Oaths taken by Members, had moved that it should lie upon the Table, but had not moved that it should be printed, which it was most desirable should be done.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I shall now move that the Report be printed.
  Report ordered to be printed.

SUNDAY BANDS IN THE PARKS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HANBURYsaid, he would beg to ask the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary whether he has received a memorial on the subject of the Sunday bands in the Parks being encouraged by the Government, while preaching is prohibited; and, if so, what answer Her Majesty's Government are prepared to give to the prayer of that memorial.
  SIR GEORGE GREY, in reply, said, that about ten days previously he received a memorial, signed by the rev. secretaries of three Associations in the metropolis for the better observance of the Lord's day and the encouragement of open-air preaching, complaining that while bands were permitted to play on Sundays in the Regent's and Victoria Parks, preaching had been forbidden. The Parks in question were not under the direct control of the Secretary of State, but under that of the Chief Commissioner of Works. At the same time he had no objection to answer the question which had been addressed to him. He had been assured that no direct sanction had been given by the Government to the playing of the bands on Sunday. They were purely voluntary bands, and the Government had done nothing more than abstain from interfering with them. With the exception of the memorial to which he had referred, he was bound to say he had received no complaint in regard to the playing of the bands from the neighbourhood of either of the Parks. The grounds upon which his right hon. Friend the Chief Commissioner of Works had prohibited preaching in the Parks were, he thought, quite sufficient. It appeared that persons of different religious denominations were in the habit of advocating their views in the Parks on Sunday, thus diverting those places from their legitimate purposes—the amusement and relaxation of the people. The evil at last was carried to such an extreme that parties were found avowedly proclaiming atheistical and infidel principles. Under these circumstances the Chief Commissioner of

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  Works considered that the permission to preach had been abused, and deeming it impossible to allow policemen to exercise a discretion in the matter, therefore withdrew altogether the permission which had been given to preach in the Parks.
  SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, he thought it was only fair that he should state to the House what the allegations in the memorial were, and then give his answer to them. The memorialists declared that they regretted that the playing of private bands on Sunday afternoon had been resumed in Regent's and Victoria Parks; that the platforms erected there at the public expense were used by those bands, while seats were let for hire, and programmes sold for the benefit of the performers; that while all this was done with the sanction of the Chief Commissioner of Works the permission to preach had been withdrawn. He was much surprised at these statements, which had but hide foundation of truth. After the discussion which took place last year the bands which had obtained the sanction of the Government to their playing on Sunday were discontinued, in deference to certain opinions which had been expressed upon the subject, and he had taken no part whatever in their renewal. The platforms upon which the bands played on week days were used, he understood, on Sunday, and he thought he should not be justified in entering upon a collision with the people upon such a subject. Another allegation of the memorialists was that persons were prevented going to the Parks in consequence of the disorderly conduct of the people during the playing of the bands. He had frequent reports from the park-keepers and from the superintendent of the Parks, but he had not heard one single complaint of the conduct of the people; on the contrary, he believed that the cases before the magistrates on Monday had by no means increased. Last year, during the playing of the bands sanctioned by the Government, upwards of 200,000 people visited the Parks on Sunday, and yet not one single case arising out of the bands came before the magistrates. The grounds upon which he stopped preaching in the Parks on Sunday might be shortly stated. In a report which he received from the superintendent of the Parks he was informed that upon a Sunday in August last year, there were one Protestant minister, five Emanuelites (four males, and one female), five total abstainers, and eleven infidels
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  preaching at the same time one against the other. The park-keepers took down some of the sentences which they heard uttered, such as, "If there is a God, he is the author of all evil;" "There is no evidence of a future life;" "The Deity is unknown to men;" and a great number of other most blasphemous doctrines with which he would not disgust the House. Upon the receipt of that report he felt it his duty to prohibit preaching altogether, believing that a, discretion could not properly be left to the superintendent or the park-keepers, as to what was orthodox and what was infidelity.
  LORD LOVAINEsaid, he wished for an explanation of the statement in the memorial that money was paid for admission to hear the music.
  SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, there was no such statement in the memorial. What the memorialists said was, that seats were let for hire, and programmes were sold for the benefit of the performers. He knew nothing about the programmes; but with regard to the seats he might slate that in all the Parks there were certain persons allowed to let out chairs to those who wished to have them.

  DIPLOMATIC PAYMENTS.—QUESTION.
  MR. WISEsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether it is intended to abolish the system of deductions being made by certain officials at the Foreign Office from the salaries paid to Her Majesty's Diplomatic and Consular Servants abroad?
  MR. WILSONsaid, that the form in which the question of the hon. Gentleman was put was calculated to mislead. There was no compulsory deduction made from the salaries of the consuls, but the consuls sometimes appointed certain gentlemen in the Foreign Office as their agents, who performed every description of duty for them, received their salaries, forwarded their letters, and did all the business which a foreign Minister required. The foreign Ministers need not appoint agents unless they pleased. But the system had appeared to the Government to be an objectionable one as regarded the officials at the Foreign Office standing in the relation of agents to foreign Ministers, and the matter had been under the consideration of Government. It was in the interest of the foreign Ministers that the system should not be entirely abolished; if it were, they must consider what substitute they could provide for it.
  MR. WISEsaid, he wished to know whether the system, as it existed, was not an injury to foreign Ministers?
  MR. WILSONsaid, he could not see how having an agent could in any way injure the foreign Minister, particularly as the arrangement was quite voluntary.

ASSIMILATION OF WEIGHTS AND MEASURES (IRELAND).

  QUESTION.
  SIR WILLIAM VERNERsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland if it was his intention, on the part of the Government, to bring in a Bill to assimilate Weights and Measures in Ireland next Session?
  MR. H. A. HERBERTsaid, a Bill had been prepared for the regulation of Fairs and Markets in Ireland which contained a clause equalizing Weights and Measures all over Ireland, so far as Fairs and Markets were concerned. He was not aware of any intention on the part of the Government to introduce any other measure on that subject.

EMBODIMENT OF THE MILITIA.

  QUESTION.
  MR. CORRYsaid, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary for War whether, in the event of a portion of the militia being embodied during the recess, it is the intention of the Government to call out any Irish regiments?
  SIR JOHN RAMSDENsaid, that if it should be found necessary to embody any part of the militia the first consideration would be to select those regiments which were in the most efficient state for immediate duty; but subject to that first consideration a fair proportion of regiments would be selected from England, Ireland, and Scotland.

RECALL OF COMMODORE KEPPEL.

  QUESTION.
  SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, he wished to know whether it is true that, notwithstanding the acquittal of Commodore Keppel by Court Martial, the Admiralty have recalled the gallant officer from the Chinese seas.
  SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, that with the utmost deference to the House and to the hon. and gallant Member for South-wark, he must decline to answer the question. He thought it most inexpedient that the House should interfere with the appointments of officers by the Executive.

THE COMMON LAW COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he would now ask whether the Report of the Common Law Commission, which had been printed and presented to the House, would be sent to all the Members, or whether copies of it would simply be deposited at the Vote Office. There was a number of other papers on the same subject, of which a list had been printed, and he also wished to know whether these would also be circulated among Members?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he willingly admitted that on a question of this importance it was desirable that the papers should be printed and circulated, but he did not think a sufficient number of copies had been printed.
  MR. WILSONsaid, with regard to the second question, that if there was a sufficient number of copies there could be no objection to the circulation of the papers. Some of them, however, had been presented many years ago, and only a few copies were in print.

  PAROCHIAL SCHOOLMASTERS' (SCOT LAND) BILL.—QUESTION.
  MR. CRAUFURDsaid, he wished to know if the above Bill, which had come down from the Lords, had been introduced at the express desire of the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate; if so, whether Government meant to take charge of it, and why it was proceeded with at a period when nearly every Scotch Member had left town? Lastly, he wished to know whether it was to be proceeded with that night or during the present Session?
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, it was his intention to proceed with the Bill that evening, and that it had not been proceeded with without full consultation with the Scotch Members.
  MR. CRAUFURDsaid, that he would attend in his place and give the Bill every opposition possible.

THE CASE OF LIEUTENANT COLONELS APPOINTED BEFORE 1854.

  QUESTION.
  Order for Committee (Supply) read.
  GENERAL PEELsaid, he rose to put a question to the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War upon a matter of great interest to many gallant officers, who had suffered much injustice by the operation of the Royal Warrant of the 6th of October,

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  1854. All officers who before the date of the warrant had obtained the rank of Lieutenant Colonel had done so upon the express understanding that their future promotion should be by seniority, and that no officer should be promoted over their heads, except under certain special circumstances. So far from that understanding being adhered to, the senior officer who was affected by the Royal Warrant had seen no less than fifty-four officers pass over his head, and those subsequently promoted had been in like manner superseded by numbers varying from sixty-four downwards. The House would find the whole case clearly and temperately stated in a pamphlet written by Colonel the Hon. J. Lindsay, late a Member of that House. His hon. and gallant Friend was prepared to bring forward the subject in the last Session of Parliament, but had been prevented by the sudden dissolution, and, having unfortunately failed to obtain his re-election, had requested him (General Peel) to bring the matter under the consideration of the House. He had such an opinion of the merits of the case, and such confidence in the sense of justice possessed by those who administered the affairs of the army, that he had great hopes of receiving a satisfactory answer. He would, therefore, conclude by asking the Under Secretary for War, If the attention of the Military Authorities has been directed to the case of certain Lieutenant Colonels of the Army who have been passed over and superseded under the provisions of a Royal Warrant of the 6th day of October, 1854, their commissions as Lieutenant Colonel being dated before that warrant was issued; and whether it is intended to restore these Officers to the relative position of which they have been deprived by its retrospective action?
  GENERAL CODRINGTONsaid, that no doubt the warrant in its practical effect was very unfair towards the Lieutenant Colonels. It displaced many officers who had been promoted to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel for distinguished services, and superseded them by officers who had not so distinguished themselves, but had merely served their regulation six years with their regiments, in the usual routine. They had heard a great deal lately about compensation to proctors and others, but this was not a case for compensation, but a question of right and justice, seeing that these gentlemen had been deprived of their position by a direct act of
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  the Government, and by no fault of their own. Common justice required that in any Order of Council exceptions should be made in favour of those who attained their rank before it took effect. No fewer than from sixty to eighty officers, many of whom were promoted for distinguished services in the field, had been passed over in this way. He trusted that the Government would not only take this case into their favourable consideration, but also into their just consideration, for it was merely a question of justice, and not of favour.
  MR. ROEBUCKsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary for War a question upon another subject, and which he could answer at the same time with that of the hon. and gallant Member for Huntingdon. It would be in the recollection of everybody that the hon. Baronet greatly won upon the House the other night by a statement he made as to the manner in which our soldiers were prepared when they got to India to meet the exigencies of the climate. Among other things he stated that our troops were provided with cotton covers for their helmets and foraging caps. Now, in that day's Times there was a distinct denial of that statement. They were told in The Times—and the information was printed in the largest type employed on that paper, in order, no doubt, to draw public attention to it—that the information given by the hon. Baronet was not correct, that no such cotton covers had been issued to our troops, and that they were going to India in heavy marching order. Now, he wished to know whether it was true that the men had not received, as the hon. Baronet had stated they had, coverings for their helmets and foraging caps; and, if not true, on whose authority the statement was made to the House. Of course, he could not for a moment suppose that the hon. Baronet made a statement which he did not believe, and he (Mr. Roebuck) put the question now in order that, if not correct, it should be brought home to the man who communicated it to the hon. Baronet.
  SIR JOHN RAMSDENsaid, he had to state, in reply to the gallant General the Member for Huntingdon, that the warrant to which he had referred had received and was now receiving the careful attention of his noble Friend at the head of the War Department, and His Royal Highness the Commander in Chief. They were fully aware that in practice that warrant had not answered the expectations formed of

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  it. It would be recollected, however, that it was framed on the recommendation of at Royal Commission, which was appointed to consider the subject, and that any steps to be taken regarding it must be adopted with extreme care, especially as the matter involved calculations of the most minute and difficult character, in order that full justice might be done. He was unable to say what precise steps would be taken to remedy the evils complained of, but he could assure the hon. and gallant Officer that the attention of the military authorities was earnestly directed to the subject. In answer to the inquiry put by the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield he had to state that he also had observed the paragraph to which the hon. and learned Gentleman alluded. He found on inquiry that the state of the case was this:—The troops sent out to China had received cap covers, or materials for making them. The cavalry, artillery, and engineers sent to India took with them cap and helmet covers made up; but the infantry now proceeding to India did not take with them cap covers. The material, however, would be provided for them in India, and he was informed there would be no difficulty in getting any amount of material in the shortest possible period. Orders had been sent out by overland that no time should be lost in preparing the cap covers, so that they might be ready for the troops when they arrived.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

NEW PUBLIC OFFICES.

  ADDRESS MOVED.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he rose to move an Address to the Crown for a Commission to consider the site and plans of the proposed new public offices. Although his own name had come before the public in connection with certain recommendations, yet he did not take this Motion with any intention to persuade or entrap the House into any particular plan of rebuilding the public offices. His sole object was to obtain a full and complete investigation of the subject, a fair trial and patient hearing, which had not yet been granted, but without which it was possible the rebuilding of these offices might cost the country hundreds of thousands, and yet prove an abortion after all. He was aware it was late in the Session to come forward, but the Report of the
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  Judges had not been long printed, and he had therefore no earlier opportunity of raising the question. The recent exhibition in Westminster Hall had made every Member familiar with the matter. It was curious to ascertain what Parliamentary sanction existed for an undertaking which would cost the Government £5,000 in prizes, and the competitors tens of thousands in producing their drawings. In looking over the pages of Hansard, the only notice he found taken of this matter in Parliament in 1856 was that on the 4th of April, in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Invernesshire, the Minister of Public Works made a statement to the effect that it was the intention of the Government to rebuild the public offices on a large scale, and that they meant to bring the matter before a Committee. So obscure were the circumstances connected with the appointment of this Committee, that he actually found no record of it in Hansard. However, it was named, and sat seven times, first on the 30th of May, and lastly on the 18th of July, and in the course of these seven times examined two witnesses, occupying two days in their examination, besides putting four questions on a third day, and two more on a fourth to one of those witnesses. On the evidence of these two witnesses the Government seemed to have founded all they have done. The first witness was Mr. Hunt, the official surveyor of public works. The other witness was Sir C. Trevelyan, a man of great official experience, but still in architectural matters but an amateur. The Government seemed to have acted very much on the advice given by Mr. Hunt, while the plan recommended by Sir C. Trevelyan was in many material respects widely different from that which they had followed, and in certain points resembling that which he (Mr. Hope) advocated. Sir Charles Trevelyan in his examination recommended the appointment of a committee of persons, carefully selected on account of their experience and ability, to act as advisers to the Chief Commissioner of Works and the Government, first of all as to the relative positions of the different offices, which he looked upon as a matter of great consequence. The Commission for which he was moving precisely answered to the recommendation. Sir C. Trevelyan also recommended that before anything was done in the matter of rebuilding the public offices some comprehensive plan should be agreed on, combining administrative

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  efficiency, perfect accommodation, and architectural beauty, and that the buildings should be raised gradually, one after another, as necessity called for them. The Report of this Committee was presented on the 20th of July—too late for any discussion to take place in regard to it before the end of the Session, and the evidence was not printed till the recess. And yet it was upon this slender foundation that the Government had committed itself to the undertaking. During that recess came forth the extraordinary scheme of the Board of Works, in which three entirely different and discordant classes of prizes were offered for a block plan for a War Office and for a Foreign Office. A great number of drawings was sent into Westminster Hall, and then, and not until then, were a board of examiners appointed. These judges discharged their duty ably and conscientiously, but being bound by their instructions they were obliged to give prizes to three plans, totally different from each other, and incapable of being fused together. A French gentleman got the first prize for the block plan, including both Foreign and War Offices; an Englishman got the prize for the Foreign Office, which was incapable of being worked into the block plan; and another Englishman got the prize for a War Office, which was equally at variance with the block plan and with the Foreign Office. How then was this embarrassment to be solved! He understood that the block plan was to be thrown aside and that the discordant War and Foreign Offices were to be run up check by jowl. An excuse had been made that to carry out the block plan of M. Crepinet would involve an extraordinary amount of expenditure. He could not deny that if this plan were carried out in its integrity it would cost a sum which would stagger the Legislature, but, besides the scheme for the re-adjustment of the Public Offices, this plan contained "A scheme for the rearrangement of the approaches considered particularly with a reference to the rebuilding of Westminster Bridge," which was not an essential part of the block plan, but which the competitors had been invited, in the instructions to competitors, to contribute over and above the main design. It was not certain, however, that the scheme of the Government would be much less costly. It certainly would be much cheaper, in the long run, to lay down some great scheme which might be carried out gradually, as
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  the national resources would allow, than to run up two independent and distinct offices, which would be finished in 1860, and which before 1861 had gone round we should devoutly pray that some earthquake would destroy. When first this scheme was started the cry was for a centralisation of the public offices, meaning thereby, as he understood it, the bringing of them together under one roof, as the two Houses of Parliament were brought together, so that there might be ready communication between them, and time and labour—and thereby money—might be saved. But now the proposition was to build entirely separate buildings for the War and Foreign Offices, each of which must have four distinct facades, besides the disadvantage of windows ending in nothing, which in a united building would open into each other. He had heard something, too, in a mysterious way, first from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and then from the First Lord of the Treasury, about a third building, which was to be raised for the Colonial Office, which had not been named before, nor brought into competition. If this were to be built we should have three independent buildings, with twelve distinct facades. With regard to the expense, the judges observed in their Report that they had no knowledge of the sum which the Government proposed to expend upon these works, and that the designs were unaccompanied by estimates, and did not admit of accurate calculation as to cost. Therefore this competition had been entered into—architects had been invited to send in designs—the judges were called upon to adjudicate, and yet the first essential of a practical undertaking, the imposition of a limit as to how much it was to cost, and requiring architects to conform thereto, had been entirely overlooked. They had heard from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that all that was to be done now was to rebuild the War and Foreign Offices and to erect a new Colonial Office. If that were so, the work might, according to his own (Mr. Beresford Hope's) suggestions, be done upon plans much more economic than those which had received the sanction of the Government. According to the estimate which would come under their notice that evening, the site of these offices would cost £170,000. According to the plan which he had recommended, the War and Foreign Offices might be built upon the Parade in St. James's Park—a plot of ground which already belonged to the Crown—and therefore

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  would cost nothing, while their erection upon this area, so far from requiring the demolition of the existing Colonial Office, would not only permit its continuance, but also allow the present Foreign Office to be thrown into it in order to provide any additional temporary accommodation which might be required. This he should propose only as part of the greater scheme of concentrating the new offices between the Treasury, and the Admiralty, and the Horse Guards, making one harmonious pile of buildings, and leaving the space upon which the Government proposed to erect these buildings for that continuation of St. James's Park to the river which it was absolutely necessary should be carried out, if not in our generation, at least in some future one, in order that the architectural beauty and sanitary arrangement of London might be placed upon a proper footing. To this scheme it might be objected, that the Parade being the private property of the Crown could not be dealt with as though it were under the administration of the Woods and Forests Department, and that the public would brook no interference with any of its open spaces. But surely an arrangement could be made with the Crown to exchange the Parade for the future river-side park, and the public would be amply compensated by the addition which this extension would make to their means of enjoyment, and to the beauty and health of the metropolis. There were some persons who objected to the rebuilding of the public offices as needless and extravagant, and their votes he invited on the ground that, unless that House made a protest, it would, in the eyes of the country and in those of the competitors, of the judges, and of all who had not examined into the technicalities of the plan, stand committed to the rebuilding of the War and Foreign Offices on this superb plan. Whether the Government was right or wrong, the matter had not been fairly brought before that House or before the nation. Whether they adopted the decision of the judges or not as to the plans which should be ultimately carried out, further inquiry on the part of the House of Commons ought to take place. He thought circumstances had recently occurred that should make the country more chary of its resources than it had been a few months ago. And if on that ground it should be deemed advisable to postpone these works, what could be more reasonable than that they should occupy the intervening
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  time in ascertaining how these could be carried out so as, with a due regard to economy, to conduce to the practical utility, and the artistic and sanitary improvement of the metropolis. It was the duty of that House thoroughly to investigate the subject, to explore its heights and sound its depths, and to see how far the features of architectural grandeur and magnificence, by which the plans were characterised in their crude form, could be combined with those more mature arrangements which would save money and increase effect. He therefore moved that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to appoint a Royal Commission to consider the site and plans of the proposed new public offices, and particularly the Foreign and War Offices, and to report on the same.
  MR. PINNEYseconded the Motion.
  Amendment proposed,—
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, "an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to appoint a Royal Commission to consider the Site and Plans of the proposed New Public Offices, and particularly the Foreign and War Offices, and to report on the same," instead thereof.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER;—The hon. Gentleman who has made this Motion calls upon the House to rise to a height worthy of the emergency, and with a view of meeting the requirements of the occasion he moves the appointment of a Royal Commission. Now, the effect of this Resolution, if carried, would be to take this question out of the hands of the Executive Government and virtually to place it in those of the Commissioners, whose duty it would be to decide with respect to the cite and plans of the new public offices. Unless her Majesty's Government have shown themselves unworthy of the confidence of the House with respect to this matter I trust that this Motion for an Address to Her Majesty will not be assented to. In determining the sites and proposing plans for these public offices the Government would have two things to consider. First, we have to consider the inefficiency of the present offices, and more particularly that of the Foreign Office; and then we have to consider what would be a convenient site on which to erect a new building, and what is the plan best adapted for supplying all the wants of a public office. Now, in determining this question, and deciding what shall be our ultimate proposal to Parliament, we have

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  to consider not only what appears to be the most convenient site for a new Foreign Office, but also what reasonable amount of architectural decoration we think ourselves justified in proposing, as well as what amount of public money we shall think ourselves justified in calling upon Parliament, to apply to the purpose. If, on the other hand, this House take the course of advising Her Majesty to appoint a Commission, that Commission, if appointed, would proceed by a different course. A Commission would not unnaturally consider what would be the best mode of carrying out our object, and in all probability the most expensive mode would in their view be the best. They would take the best site which the Metropolis afforded, and then, having adopted the largest plan for the erection of the Foreign Office, they would then consider how it could be made most conducive to the decorum and embellishment of the town. It would form no part of their duty to consider what expense would be reasonable for the purpose, and that question they would naturally leave to the executive Government. They would say that in selecting out of the plans submitted to us the most useful and ornamental we are discharging the duty for which we were appointed, but we have nothing to do with the question of expense. But what, on the other hand, would be the course which it would be necessary for the Government to adopt? The Government would have to consider not only which was the most magnificent and ornamental plan, but also whether it would accomplish the object of a public office, and whether it fell within a reasonable limit of expenditure; for we should certainly not be justified in engaging this House in any useless or unnecessary expense not justified by the object which we wish to accomplish—and our scheme is a far less magnificent one than that which the hon. Gentleman has sketched out. I think, therefore, that the House, by agreeing to the proposal of the hon. Gentleman, would only be encouraging delay by laying before the Government a second set of plans framed upon so extravagant a scale and involving so much ornament and decoration that the Government would be unable to adopt any of them, having a due regard to economy. I trust, therefore, that the House will not think it worth their while to depart from the course that is ordinarily adopted in such matters, but that they will leave this matter in the hands of the Executive Government,
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  who, before they submit any plan to this House, will have to consider the subject in all its bearings, and not entrust it to a Commission, which will not in any way be called upon to consider the question of expense. What the Government proposes to do is this. We propose in the present Session to ask for such a Vote as may enable us to acquire a sufficient space for the erection, in the first place, of a new Foreign Office, and, in the second place, of one or two other public offices, in order that we may erect upon it buildings suitable for the purpose. The want of the present moment is a new Foreign Office, and to supply that want is the extent of our ambition. I am afraid that we shall incur the censure of the hon. Gentleman, in not considering that we ought to seize the occasion offered by the want of new public offices to embellish the metropolis with a series of magnificent palaces, for the accommodation of the public department. Our object, then, lying within a very narrow compass, I trust that the House will allow us to follow out the plan which we desire, and will not sanction a course which would either lead to indefinite postponement or else to incurring an expenditure altogether unnecessary for the object which we have in view.
  LORD JOHN RUSSELL: Although I certainly do not agree with the proposal which has been made by the hon. Gentleman, yet I must say that I think he has been led into it by the somewhat strange course the Government have adopted with reference to this subject. It appears from the statement of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer—and the statement was a very reasonable one—that the object of the Government is first to obtain a site, and then to erect a commodious building for a Foreign Office—handsome also if possible—and afterwards to erect any other offices which might be wanted. But, although my right hon. Friend makes that statement, the Government have done the very thing to which the hon. Gentleman has alluded. They have proposed a system of competition for plans of buildings of a very handsome character, and the architects who responded to that invitation, very naturally gave play to their fancy, and a series of beautiful plans and sketches of buildings, embellished with every costly architectural decoration, had been sent in, of no other use, in my eyes, than to gratify the sight of the public, and to show the comparative

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  ingenuity and ability of the French and English architects. Now, that does not appear to me a practical mode of dealing with the subject. If you wish to spend a certain reasonable sum of money upon the erection of new public offices, it appears to me that the best plan to adopt would be to fix upon a site, and then say, "We want plans suitable to the site and to the purpose for which the buildings will be required," at the same time stating the expense which you are prepared to incur. If you had done that, you would have obtained some practical plans instead of these magnificent schemes for the public offices. One suggestion which has been made by the hon. Gentleman I think is well worthy of consideration. I have been told that the noble Lord at the head of the War Department thinks that no new Office for that department is necessary; but, if it is contemplated to build a new War office and a new Colonial office, I think that it would be very convenient to unite the two, thus having only four façades instead of eight. What I hope, however, is that the Government will throw aside the whole of these plans and consider what accommodation it is they want, and what sum of money they are prepared to propose to Parliament, and then let them obtain plans suited to the expenditure they propose. The plans which they have at present are, without doubt, exceedingly handsome; but, to speak plainly, they seem to me infinitely more adapted for palaces than public offices. I recollect what happened with regard to building a new palace for Her Majesty. Buckingham Palace was built upon the proposal of Lord Ripon, who was at the time Chancellor of the Exchequer. He then stated that the Government did not propose to build a new palace, but only a large house, sufficiently commodious for the Queen Dowager or the Prince of Wales. Well, Sir, a very strange building was constructed, with two wings coming out in a most ungraceful manner, and afterwards the space between the extremities was filled up by a fourth side, and then £100,000 spent in the construction of a large ball-room, which is very inconvenient, and ill suited with the rest of the structure. The result is, that you have a large disjointed building instead of a handsome and commodious one, although you have expended nearly a million of money upon it. I hope, therefore, that in future the Government will, in erecting new buildings, consider exactly what is
  1304
  required for the purpose to which the building is to be applied. With regard to the matter of the Palace, I recollect the late Mr. Hume saying in this House that he believed that it was proposed to build a new palace in the Park. I had at that time the honour of being the First Lord of the Treasury, and I asked the late Sir R. Peel whether he had ever thought of proposing a new palace? His answer was that he had thought about it, but he had seen so large an increase in the Miscellaneous Estimates of late years, amounting to nearly £4,000,000, that he had given up all idea of proposing such a palace. I informed Her Majesty of that opinion, and stated that I concurred in it, and Her Majesty, with her usual thonghtfulness and forbearance, immediately desired that no additional expense should be cast upon her subjects. We have now schemes proposed for the erection of buildings far more like palaces than public offices, and I trust that the Government, recollecting the still large increase which has taken place of late years in the expenditure, will readily yield to the more reasonable views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and propose only to erect buildings suitable for the purposes for which they are intended.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, that it appeared to him that the simplest plan for the Government to have adopted would have been to fix upon a ground plan, and then to take plans for the erection of buildings upon the site so chosen, at a named expenditure. What he would suggest was, that the House should have some general plan before them, that they should adhere to that plan, and that all the separate buildings to be from time to time erected should have reference to it. It did not appear from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the new offices were to be built with relation to keeping Westminster Bridge in its present position. He thought the question ought to be viewed as a whole; and therefore, he should be glad to know whether it formed any part of the Government plan for the improvement of Westminster.
  SIR. BENJAMIN HALLsaid, he thought it was only just to the Government and himself that he should be permitted to state the course taken last year before the Committee of that House, which sat on the subject, and the course taken by himself since. For many years past, as his noble Friend (Lord J. Russell)

  1305
  must be well aware, great complaint had been made of the insufficiency of accommodation in some of the public offices, and especially in the Foreign Office, the War Office, and the Colonial Office. He (Sir B. Hall) would undertake to say there were no public offices in the world which were so inconvenient or in so ruinous a state as our own. The state of the Colonial Office was such that it would have to be wholly rebuilt, and a large sum of money laid out for that purpose. The Foreign Office was inconvenient and insecure, and as regarded the War Office, it was desirable, instead of having several branches of that department located at different places at the West-end, to have all its various departments concentrated so as to facilitate the despatch of public business. Last year the Committee decided that it would be desirable to concentrate the public offices, and they added that if there was to be any rebuilding of those offices it would be advisable to call in competition the talent of the whole world in order to obtain the best possible design for such an undertaking. He communicated with the Government, and he was informed that it was their desire that steps should be taken to prevent the inconvenience which resulted from the various branches of the War Department being scattered over different parts of the town, and also that a new Foreign Office should be erected. In consequence of the suggestion of the Committee he called on surveyors, with the sanction of the Government, to send in plans for laying out the ground intended to be devoted to the rebuilding of the public offices; and surely it was desirable that the House should have a general outline of a plan, in order that if anything was to be done it should be done in conformity with such a plan. With regard to the buildings, his noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) complained that designs had been sent in on too large a scale. Before he (Sir B. Hall) sent out the requisite specifications he put himself in communication with his noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office and with his noble Friend at the head of the War Office, and he requested that they would inform him in detail of the amount of accommodation that would be required for transacting the business of those departments. They did so; elaborate specifications were drawn up for that purpose, and the result was that all the different designs sent in had been strictly made with the view
  1306
  that the buildings, which were to be the subject of those designs, should occupy no more space than was required for the transaction of the public business, and as indicated by the authorities at the Foreign and War Offices. Then, with regard to the architectural elevation, surely it was desirable, if they were to rebuild the public offices, that they should have some design for an elevation which should really be worthy the country, seeing that the constant complaint was that the public buildings in the Metropolis were such wretched abortions. He had had those designs exhibited, and he believed they had met with considerable favour, but it was for the House of Commons to say whether they would carry them out. If the House thought them too grand or expensive they would not be proceeded with. Although the buildings represented in those designs might look large, the size of the buildings had only been determined by the requisitions sent in by the different departments. What the Government proposed to do at present was simply this, to have some ground set apart in the neighbourhood of Downing Street on which two or three public offices might hereafter be erected; but no steps would be taken in regard to the expenditure until the House of Commons had sanctioned the proposal. He proposed during the recess, to look at the designs which had been approved by the judges, and endeavour to ascertain the expense of carrying them out; but nothing further would be done until the House was informed on that point. He therefore submitted that nothing had been done in this matter, either by the Government or himself, which justified the censure implied in the speech of his noble Friend.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, he felt that they were in somewhat of a difficulty already, but he thought they would only be getting into a greater difficulty if they adopted the Motion of the hon. Member for Maidstone, for he entirely agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that by so doing they would be led into an indefinite field of expense and responsibility. When the subject of the public offices was first mooted in that House, the House said they would do nothing until they had a plan before them, and that led to the appointment of a Committee on the subject. That Committee, to which the right hon. Baronet had referred, came to a very magnificent resolution in relation to the public offices; and he (Mr. Henley) did

  1307
  not think the Government could do otherwise than take some steps to act on that Resolution, so far as the procuring of designs went; but he thought the skilled gentlemen who had been invited to send in those magnificent plans, embracing such a vast area of ground, might say, and would say, that they had been very hardly treated in being put to the expense of drawing those plans when the Government had no intention at all of carrying any of them out. He did not think that it was an honest course towards those gentlemen to call for competitive plans under such circumstances. The House had been told that the Foreign and Colonial Offices were likely to tumble down. Why, with respect to the Colonial Office, they had been told that for the last twenty years. There was, however, no doubt as to its being in a bad state of repair. It was also stated that it was desirable to concentrate the War Departments; but he did not think the House was likely at present to take a very satisfactory course to carry out this object. They were now asked to buy the ground; but no definite plan had been adopted as to the buildings to be put upon it, and at present they knew not whether the ground they were asked to buy would be too much or too little for the purpose. He thought before they voted the money for the ground, they ought to know what it was that was to be put upon it. That was the first thing to be decided. The Government ought to make up their minds as to what sort of a Foreign Office, Colonial Office, or War Office they wanted, and when their minds were made up as to the requisite area it would be time enough to come to Parliament and ask for the money for the site, because, until they had made up their minds, how could Parliament know whether the piece of ground would at all suit these magnificent buildings which were to be an ornament to the town? Perhaps some low buildings would intervene between these fine elevations and George Street. People of taste would cry out, "What an abomination!" and call upon the Government to sweep away the miserable buildings which spoiled the effect, and thus Parliament would be dragged gradually into carrying out magnificent schemes which Government did not avow their intention to carry out. The only safe course was this:—Let the Government state—"This is the accommodation we want; this is the plan intended to provide it, and
  1308
  this is the area of the ground upon which we want to put it." The House would have the whole question before it, and could give a fair answer to it. But it was not a fair proposition to ask the House to sanction the purchase of a three-cornered piece of ground, which would not suit a square building, or of a square piece of ground for a circular building which would not fit it. The more reasonable course was for the right hon. Baronet to satisfy himself that the requirements made for these public offices were necessary, to determine, with the Members of the Government, whose business it was to advise, what was the proper scheme, and when that was done to lay the scheme upon the table, and ask for the money to carry it out. He did not quite gather from the right hon. Baronet whether he thought the requirements reasonable and proper. He did not pretend to give any opinion himself, because he had not given to the plans any very minute examination, but he thought some of the plans comprised accommodation, upon a very much more enlarged scale than ordinary men would conceive to be necessary. If the hon. Member's proposition were adopted, the House would only be dragged into another question.
  MR. BRISCOEsaid, that, having given great attention to this subject, he would beg to be allowed to say a few words. He thought it right to remind the House that they would shortly be asked, in Committee of Supply, to vote a sum of £38,000 for the purpose of purchasing a site, when the question could be more properly discussed. At the same time he felt bound to express his satisfaction at the remarks of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of the noble Lord the Member for the City of London, and of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire. He had no wish to join in any censure upon the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Board of Works in reference to the plans which had been submitted to the examination of the public in Westminster Hall; but he could not help thinking that some of the architects had not adhered to the specifications. In the plan for the Foreign Office, which had received the first prize, he noticed the first floor was proposed to be partially appropriated to reception rooms, 245 feet by fifty, to a grand promenade, twenty feet wide, and to a central hall, fifty feet high, for music and supper parties. He agreed with the noble Lord that the public offices should be appropriated to the transaction

  1309
  of public business. The perspective elevation, which was very attractive, was nothing more nor less than a copy of the Hotel de Ville at Paris, and it seemed as if the architect had also contemplated the balls which were given in that edifice. Balls and receptions would involve great expense, and it might happen that a person who was Foreign Minister might not possess large property; and then there would be a further demand upon the public purse for that purpose. Another competitor suggested that the bed of the river should be turned into a flower garden, and the Thames diverted into two canals on each side of it. Architects who indulged in such poetical designs could not complain of their plans being rejected. From the best information he could obtain he understood that the Foreign Office only was required, and that ground could be easily purchased for the enlargement of the present War Office in Pall Mall. It was most important that each department of the Government should be perfect and complete in itself, but that would not render necessary the removal of the War Office. He should reserve his remarks on the proposed Vote of £380,000 for the site, until it was before them; but he strongly objected to it, and in opposing it he believed he should be performing an office grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  MR. TITEsaid, he agreed that the proper time to discuss this question was on the Estimate, which was coming on. They would have a Vote for £380,000 for a site for new public offices, a large part of which was for pulling down a portion of Parliament Street northward as far as Charles Street. Notwithstanding that, he thought that a competition for a block plan was a right course, and that the country would not have been satisfied with any other. In his opinion, the block plans sent in for competition were a failure; and, if the Government adopted either one of those which had gained a prize, the cost would be from £5,000,000 to £10,000,000, and he believed no prudent country would embark in such a scheme. One of the prize plans was, to a certain extent, a copy of the Hotel de Ville, in the renaissance style, and the other in a very ornate style of half French, half Italian architecture; and to build on either of these plans would create a great incongruity with Sir Charles Barry's building: what no man of taste would for a moment sanction. There was no doubt they were
  1310
  embarking in a large outlay, and he was glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that they were not to act without consideration. He would urge on the House that they ought not to embark in it without a distinct and well-considered plan. The Government had had the benefit of the suggestions of many architects;—there was the plan of Sir J. Soane, that of Mr. Pennethorne, and also the plans in the present competitive exhibition. If the Government would take all these materials they might form a general plan. For £100,000 the ground between Downing Street and the Park might be obtained, which would give an area which it would require a sum of £400,000 to cover. If to this was added the £380,000 which was now asked in the Vote about to come on, it would be found that you were embarking in an undertaking which would cost a million. The Government might make use of the suggestions which were at their disposal, and come to the House next Session with a well-considered plan; and they would be then in a position to enter upon their schemes like men of sense and business. It was determined, and very properly, that Westminster Bridge was to go on; and it was said that certain offices must be constructed, at a cost of a million; or, at any rate, that the Foreign Office must be rebuilt. It was said that the expenditure on the Houses of Parliament was caused on account of their having been begun without any fixed plan; and although that was not so in reality, yet as they had, with an estimate of £850,000, come up to an expenditure of a million and a half, there must have been error somewhere; and therefore he hoped the Government, in their future proceedings, would take warning by what had then occurred. With regard to the Motion of the hon. Member for Maidstone, he could not agree to it; and he must say, that the proposition of that hon. Gentleman, to cover the space behind the Horse Guards with buildings, would hardly be agreed to by the country, when there was space enough for public buildings to be obtained at a moderate expenditure, without interfering with what was one of the features of the town. Therefore, although he did not altogether approve of the course which the Government had taken, he could not support the Motion before the House; and the more especially as it would necessitate further delay, and introduce a new element of debate into this much-vexed question.
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, as a member of the Committee which sat on this subject last year, he wished to make a few remarks. The Committee did not enter into the architectural question, but mainly confined the evidence before them to the question of the propriety of acquiring a site and sufficient land to carry out what might be desirable with reference to public offices. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire said, that, when a Foreign Office was wanted, it should be built; and when a War Office or Colonial Office was wanted, it should be built; but he was afraid that, if the right hon. Gentleman had heard the evidence before the Committee, he would hardly have recommended that course. The ground which the Committee recommended the Government to buy was covered with mean buildings; and if that was bought, and the Foreign Office built in the first instance, a great addition would be found to have been made to the value of the neighbouring property when you came to buy it hereafter. The Committee distinctly recommended that the architectural details should be left to public competition. He would admit that the patriotic zeal of the competitors had induced them to indulge in too costly and palatial a style, but that objection ought to have been taken when the specifications were published, and it was hardly fair now to lay the blame entirely at the door of the architects.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, without troubling the House with the expression of an opinion upon the merits of any of the schemes under discussion, he wished but to make one remark. It appeared to him objectionable that such a scheme should be brought under discussion at this particular time. Now, what was the situation of the country? The fact was patent to every one. The state of our affairs in India, in consequence of our false economy in the way of troops and ships, was one of a very serious character. With those facts staring us in the face, it was monstrous and absurd to propose to sink a large outlay of money in the purchase of ground in this neighbourhood, and in the erection of new Government buildings. He was of Opinion that such a proposition was one which should not be for one moment entertained. Let the state of the Foreign Office be what it might, it might, no doubt, by the judicious expenditure of a very moderate sum, be touched up and made available for all useful purposes. It had gone
  1312
  on for a very long time, and would probably go on for many years longer. He was decidedly opposed to any irrational outlay of money on public buildings, when a portion of our territory was in danger. He hoped that the House would not sanction one shilling outlay for this purpose. He for one would give any such proposition his most determined opposition.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes 138; Noes 8: Majority 130.

CASE OF LIEUTENANT COLONELS APPOINTED BEFORE 1854.

  QUESTIONS.
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, he rose to make a few remarks upon the answer which had been given by the Under Secretary for War to the question of the hon. and gallant Member for Huntingdon (General Peel). The hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary had said that the question of the lieutenant colonels had been brought under the consideration of the Government. That was quite true, for he (Colonel North) had called the attention of the Government to the subject a year and a half ago without leading to any result. Subsequently the question was revived by Colonel Lindsay, but the Government did not manifest any great interest in the matter, for they allowed the House to be counted out. The subject, however, was one of very great importance to a number of officers who had rendered valuable services to their country. Until the warrant of the 6th of October, 1854, no field officer could be passed over by another unless the latter had been made an aide de-camp to the Queen; but the warrant entirely changed that state of things, and officers who had commanded their regiments for three years were allowed, irrespective of their periods of general service, to attain at once the rank of full colonels. What the lieutenant colonels who were affected by that arrangement complained of was, that the warrant of 1854 was, as regarded them, retrospective, and the consequence was, that those officers who had served with credit in all parts of the world, and many of whom had been promoted for gallantry in the field, found themselves passed over by boys, both in service and in age. No less than 140 officers had been so passed over. The thing could have been easily remedied at the time by bringing forward those officers in a brevet,

  1313
  making a larger number of full colonels, and a smaller number of lieutenant colonels. He had proposed that course as one of common justice, and with a view to prevent the galling feeling which those officers had experienced in seeing their juniors passing over their heads. His complaint against the Government was that they had not taken into consideration the recommendations of the Royal Commission which sat on the warrant, to adopt some measure to obviate the injustice which the adoption of that warrant would cause. The members of that Commission had recommended a liberal view of the claims of the existing lieutenant colonels, and the Government had stated that they were taking the matter into consideration, but the way in which their consideration seemed likely to act, he would instance by mentioning the case of the present senior officer of those whose case was now under consideration, Lieutenant Colonel Dann. Up to the 30th of June last sixty-four junior officers had passed over his head, while at present the number amounted to eighty-six. Was it not heart-rending to gallant men like them to see themselves passed over by officers who, compared to themselves, were mere boys, both in service and in the number of years they had been field officers? Many of the officers thus passed over had received their promotion for gallantry in the field and suffering from wounds, and having full reliance on the warrant then in force, by which no officer but a Queen's aide-de-camp could pass over their heads, they had retired from their regiments. Owing to the unfair course of the new warrant being made retrospective, their expectations had been deceived. In the natural course of things, those officers could only receive their promotion by surviving the whole of 164 generals on the Army List; but how many of them were likely to survive that number of generals? An officer now entering the army knew what he had to expect, but he did think it would be only justice to those who had been so injuriously affected by the warrant of 1854, to give them their promotion by brevet. He trusted, therefore, that the matter would be laid before the proper authorities with a view of so grievous an injustice being obviated. He should be glad to know how it was that while the officers and men of the French army were wearing the Turkish medal in 1855, not a single English soldier had yet received it, although at this moment nearly all the
  1314
  regiments which were entitled to it were on their way to India? He did not know whether it was the fault of the Foreign Office or of the War Office; but he did know that it was perfectly disgraceful that the officers and men of our army should be treated in that manner. There was another point to which he would advert before sitting down, that was the injustice of promoting officers commanding regiments to be general officers over the heads of men holding staff appointments, of so much responsibility as those, for instance, of Deputy Adjutant General and Deputy Quartermaster General in Ireland. It was not fair that men holding such responsible offices as those should labour for years without any recognition of their services. He trusted, therefore, that that matter also would receive proper attention from Her Majesty's Government.
  LORD HOTHAMobserved, that he had heard with satisfaction the intention expressed on the part of the Government by the hon. Baronet opposite to take into consideration the subject introduced by his hon. and gallant Friend, but he regretted that the hon. Baronet had not been authorized to make a more decided statement and go a little further than he had done. He (Lord Hotham) concurred entirely in what had fallen from the hon. and gallant Member for Huntingdon, the hon. and gallant Member for Greenwich (General Codrington), and the hon. and gallant Officer who last addressed the House, and he would only observe that, whether they were dealing with the claims of civil or military officers, they ought to adhere to one rule and strictly to maintain good faith. It was quite clear that good faith had not been kept with the officers whoso case had been referred to, and he hoped the Government would not only see the necessity of taking some steps to remedy the grievance of which they complained, but of doing so without loss of time, as delay would only increase the difficulty of dealing with the subject.
  MR. STAFFORDsaid, the Under Secretary for War (Sir J. Ramsden) had answered the question put to him to-night with great ingenuousness, but the hon. Baronet's reply conveyed an entirely different impression from the answer he gave a few nights ago to the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby.) He (Mr. Stafford) found, however, that the previous answer of the hon. Baronet was completely contradicted by a statement which appeared

  1315
  in The Times of that morning, and which had been openly and frankly quoted by the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck), and as frankly admitted by the hon. Baronet. The statement to which he (Mr. Stafford) referred was in these terms:—
  "It is no exaggeration to say that the officers of the corps which have lately started have been oppressed with dread as to the effects of the climate on their men while muffled in their present equipment. If any regiments should have been provided for, surely it was those which sailed yesterday—the 97th, 20th, and part of the 42nd; Highlanders. Yet we know that these men had not a single cap cover, and that they will land in India in the same uniforms in which they quitted Aldershot and Shorncliffe, without as much as a cloth to cover the hideous black shako, which is truly nicknamed in those regiments the 'Sepoy's Friend.'" [The Times, Aug. 10.]
  Now, from the answer given by the Under Secretary for War a few nights ago he (Mr. Stafford) concluded—and he thought all who heard that answer must have concluded—that protective clothing against the burning sun of India would accompany the soldiers in the vessels in which they sailed from this country. That turned out not to be the case, and the hon. Baronet now informed the House that orders had been sent overland that the requisite clothing should be provided for the troops on their arrival in India. He (Mr. Stafford) hoped that would be the case; but he complained, not of the hon. Baronet, who he was sure had no intention to deceive the House, but of those whose duty it was to afford him information, and who—the hon. Baronet being too new in office to doubt their veracity—had misinformed him. Had it not been for the statement in the newspaper from which he had quoted, for the comments upon that statement, and for the recognition of its accuracy which, he must say, had been wrung from the War Office, the troops would have embarked for India under a misconception as to the provision which had been made for their clothing. He (Mr. Stafford) feared from this statement an ill-omened and unhappy repetition of the course of events with which unfortunately they were all too familiar. Similar statements had been made by the same journal; they were denied by the authorities, they proved true at a subsequent period, they proved true beyond the power of question, cavil, or denial, but they proved true too late. He (Mr. Stafford) sincerely hoped the present occurrence was not the precurser of the renewal of a state of things
  1316
  which, with all respect for the hon. Baronet, he must designate as mendacious and disastrous. He would impress upon the hon. Baronet the necessity of informing himself of the real state of affairs with regard to the troops, and would remind him that, with the experience of the past, still more disgrace and dishonour would attach to the Government if, after all that had happened, they either deluded, or lent themselves to delude, that House and the country with reference to the condition of our soldiers. After the horrible and heartrending calamities which had resulted from neglect at home, the responsibility and guilt would be far greater than they were at the outbreak of the Crimean war. He had merely risen to give this warning to the hon. Baronet, who was as yet too young in office to be responsible for anything more than the statements he made in that House, but who, as the organ of the War Office, occupied a most responsible position, and who ought to make those acquainted with the various departments of the service answerable to him for the truth of the statements which, on their authority, he brought before the House.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.

  SUPPLY.—MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
  House in Committee, Mr. FITZROY in the Chair.
  (1.) £2,000, Gallery of Historical Portraits.
  MR. SPOONERsaid, the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. Coningham) had objected to this Vote on a previous occasion, and he (Mr. Spooner) was now prepared to support him in dividing against it, because they had no right to tax the public for such an object as that which it contemplated. It might be said this was a small sum; but it was but the beginning of a more extensive scheme. It could not be said that the object of this gallery was the promotion of art; for art was not likely to be greatly assisted by hanging up old pictures of statesmen and naval and military commanders. The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave up that view of the case the other day, and told them the gallery would be extremely valuable as an historical collection. He (Mr. Spooner) however, contended that they had no right to spend the public money to found a gallery which could only be visited and seen by a very small portion of the people of the country. We had spent on the British Museum, National Gallery, and similar institutions,

  1317
  in the year ending January, 1857, no less than £270,000, and under the head of art £48,000 only last year. On the Kensington estate we had spent £277,000. So that there was an expense of more than half a million of money on objects in which the public at large had little or no interest. If they agreed to this Vote an expenditure, already objectionable, would go on increasing from year to year. And for what? To get an exhibition, he had no doubt interesting in itself, but for which the poor man from one end of the kingdom to the other would be taxed without the possibility of deriving any advantage from it. He hoped, therefore, that the Committee would not only decline to sanction this Vote, but would arrest the growing expenditure on subjects of a similar character. For these reasons, if the hon. Member for Brighton declined to take the sense of the Committee on the present occasion, he should do so.
  MR. INGRAMsaid, he thought they could not spend the trifling sum now proposed in a better way than in the erection of a gallery for portraits. Notwithstanding what had fallen from the hon. Member (Mr. Spooner), the working classes took a great interest in the erection of galleries like these. Perhaps the portrait of the hon. Member himself might find a place in the proposed collection, and add not inconsiderably to the interest that would be felt in it.
  MR. GILPINsaid, he could not agree with the hon. Member (Mr. Spooner) on this question. He should support the proposal before them, but he must object to the establishment of a new set of officials when the present National Gallery and the officials there ought to be sufficient.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he always found it rather difficult to satisfy his hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Spooner) with regard to Votes of this class. If he proposed a vote for the cultivation of art and the improvement of the public taste his hon. Friend said that was not a legitimate ground on which to tax the people of this country, who, he said, were indifferent to works of art. Then if he proposed a Vote like the present, not for the purpose of cultivating art, but to form a gallery of portraits of persons eminent in the history of the country, and whose characters and reputation were dear to the people, his hon. Friend turned round and said the Vote was objectionable, because it was not for the promotion of art, but for an object from which the people
  1318
  at large would derive no benefit. It was rather difficult, therefore, to know on what grounds he might hope to be fortunate enough to obtain the support of his hon. Friend; and unless he were tempted by the prospect, held out by the hon. Member for Boston, of his portrait being placed in this gallery, he should almost despair of receiving his support. This Vote originated in a Resolution of the House of Lords last Session to address the Crown in favour of the establishment of a gallery of portraits, with the intention of illustrating English History, something similar in its nature to those statues which might be seen in the corridor of that House. In consequence of that Address the Government proposed last year a Vote of £2,000. The House, after discussion, and on a division, agreed to that Vote; trustees were appointed, and the foundation of the gallery had been commenced. Some donations had been made, and among them was one from the late lamented Earl of Ellesmere of the portrait of Shakspeare of which he was the possessor. In these circumstances he hoped the House would not reverse the decision of last year and refuse to add to the grant of last year the moderate sum now proposed. With reference to what had fallen from the hon. Member (Mr. Gilpin) it was not proposed to apply any portion of the sum to the payment of officers beyond £100 given to the secretary to the trustees, and it was not contemplated to have any staff of officers for the gallery. At present the very limited space assigned to the National Gallery prevented this new collection being placed there; but when it was the pleasure of the House to carry out a plan for the enlargement of the National Gallery it would then be in the power of the Government to set aside one or two rooms in connection with that gallery for the reception of portraits. They would be under the care of the officers of the National Gallery. No attempt would be made to create any new establishment of officials, and the money voted by Parliament would be employed in the purchase of pictures for the gallery.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that £2,000 had been voted last year for the same purposes, and he wished to know what had been done with the money, what portraits had been purchased, and the sums paid for them. Some information of that kind ought to be given before any additional sum was granted.
  MR. COXsaid, the Government were now getting in the thin end of the wedge, find the sooner they were stopped the better. He thought that if the National Gallery was to be made any use of all the pictures worth seeing ought to be placed there. The proposed Gallery of Portraits appeared to him to be nothing but an absurdity, and would lead to the throwing away of the public money. It had been said that the gallery would illustrate history, but he did not understand how the exhibition of the portraits, for instance, of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and of the First Lord of the Treasury, would illustrate history. Perhaps the right hon. Member for Carlisle might be glad to see his portrait in such a collection, and probably the hon. Member for Lambeth would be gratified in viewing his as 'the successor of Mr. Hume'—but they would produce very little impression on the minds of the people.
  SIR JOHN TRELAWNYsaid, that if he were informed that the working classes would be admitted to view the collection of portraits on a Sunday he would vote for the sum proposed, or even a larger sum.
  MR. BRISCOEobserved, that when the debate on this subject closed on last Wednesday he had spent half an hour or an hour in inquiries before he could ascertain where the portraits were collected; at last, with great difficulty, he found that the Government had obtained a room in the house of an engineer in Great George Street, but, on asking permission to see pictures already obtained, he was told that it was impossible he could be admitted; that not only the working classes were excluded, but everybody else, unless provided with an order from a noble Lord, Earl Stanhope. He certainly thought it important that Members of Parliament, when called on to vote public money for this Portrait Gallery, should be allowed to see what sort of pictures had been obtained. He understood from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the gallery was to be a collection of original pictures, but where were original pictures to be obtained? They were the property of private individuals, who formed galleries of their own, and he recollected on one occasion being an unsuccessful competitor for the purchase of a portrait of Blackstone, by Gainsborough, with the late Sir Robert Peel, who bought it for a portrait gallery he was forming at Tamworth. From his
  1320
  experience he should say it was not possible, except now and then, to obtain original portraits. He was at a loss to understand what advantage it was to be voting this sum of £2,000 yearly, and he should be glad to see the Vote withdrawn.
  SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEsaid, he did not disapprove of the objects of the Vote; but, from the arrangements which had been made with respect to the gallery, he believed that the public could obtain no advantage from it, for there was, already, an accumulation of national pictures which could not be exhibited for want of room. Was the House to go on, year after year, voting money for a collection of portraits, without the smallest probability existing of that benefit arising which, it was supposed, might result from the contemplation by the public of the portraits of the great men belonging to the country? This proposition appeared to have originated in an idea to imitate the Palace of Versailles, and if there was a building in which the Government could hang up the pictures, then the public might get some advantage from the Vote; but the pictures already obtained could not be seen, even by an hon. Gentleman who took pains to obtain a sight of them. Under the circumstances, he, for one, should vote against the proposed grant.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he thought the complaint of the hon. Baronet not quite reasonable. It was almost impossible that, by the expenditure of the sum of £2,000, voted last year, any amount of pictures could have been obtained sufficiently large to be worth exhibiting, for original portraits were very valuable. The question for the Committee to determine was, whether they thought it worth while to lay the foundation of a gallery of national portraits in this country. He confessed he could not imagine any object of more universal or of more permanent interest to the people of this country. He agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, though the collection might possess merit, as containing works of art, yet the primary and most important object of such a gallery as that proposed was not to be a gallery of art. A collection of national portraits would illustrate history to the eye in a manner which would be interesting to all classes of the people, and must be productive of beneficial results. All the House was now asked to do was, to sanction the principle by voting a small sum for the purpose, and when a sufficient number of portraits

  1321
  had been accumulated, it would then be time to consider in what way they could best be exhibited. When a Gallery of Historical Portraits was formed, and had obtanined a certain degree of excellence, contributions of value and interest would be made by individuals, who would be proud to have the portraits of their relatives and ancestors placed in a national collection of this description. For himself, he must say, that he could not conceive anything more interesting, instructive, or valuable to the country, than a really good and complete collection of historical portraits. Englishmen had a great pride in collecting pictures of this description, and he believed that, in this country, which was particularly rich in historical portraits, there would be no difficulty, in a very short time, in forming the nucleus of a most valuable collection; and he should be sorry if the Committee, by rejecting this Vote, were to lead the world to believe that there was no taste in England for such a collection.
  MR. DRUMMONDsaid, that, if any association of private gentlemen set themselves to work to collect a gallery of the portraits of British statesmen, the work would soon be done. Having been interested in some such matter a few years ago, he knew that there had been found in the house of one nobleman, who was the inheritor of three great historical families, an enormous collection of portraits, which had lain on their faces in the sleeping-rooms over the stables for thirty years. Nobody knew the names of them, by whom they were painted, or anything about them; and, for all that he knew, there they were still. It was notorious, however, that whatever was undertaken by the Government was done at a greater cost than by anybody else, and what, he asked, was the use of such a dribble as £2,000 a year? At the same time, the Miscellaneous Estimates had been increasing for years past in such a manner as to excite serious disquietude; and, following the analogy of private life, if there were a year in which, owing to some calamity, the expenditure was larger than usual, that was not the year selected for purchasing expensive articles of taste and luxury. In this country the Government ought to be very cautious in incurring such expenditure, the more so as it was well known that, buy what they would, or build what they would, every soul in the country next year would find fault with what they had
  1322
  done. He did not much like to meddle with a Vote of £2,000 a year, as it was a small sum, and did not signify much, but he thought that this was one of the most foolish of all the foolish Votes that had been proposed in the Miscellaneous Estimates.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, that the speech of the hon. Member for West Surrey answered itself, because, if in old country houses historical pictures were laid in rooms over the stables, upon their faces, what would seem to be required was, some commodious gallery where they might be hung with their backs to the walls, and where everybody might see them.
  MR. CONINGHAMsaid, that he opposed the grant upon two grounds; not because he objected to the collection of genuine portraits of celebrated personages—for he should be the last to grudge money for such an object—but, because we had ample machinery for the purpose already existing at the National Gallery, and because he absolutely objected to the appointment of a totally irresponsible body of trustees, some of whom—especially the professional trustee—had proved themselves unworthy of the public confidence. In the discussion of this Estimate they had been told that there was no room in the National Gallery, but he maintained that there was ample space in that building if the Royal Academy were turned out of that portion of it which they at present occupied—a result which the Government were almost pledged to accomplish. He complained of the tone which had been adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reply to his observations, carping at him as impeaching the character of Sir C. Eastlake. He begged to say he had done nothing of the kind. Sir C. Eastlake was a public officer, receiving public pay, and he (Mr. Coningham), as a representative in Parliament, took upon himself to impugn the public administration of that officer, and he maintained that he had clearly and satisfactorily shown that he was wanting in those qualifications which fit a man to occupy a post of such serious responsibility. He was borne out in this view by a great Parliamentary authority—the late Mr. Hume—who said that he was a man who did everything, and who directed everything, and that it was no wonder, therefore, that everything was done in the strangest manner. But more than this, Sir C. East-lake had himself borne testimony to his own incompetence, when he stated before

  1323
  the Select Committee, in 1853, with reference to the purchase of the Holbein portrait, that it was such a mistake as he should hardly suppose that a person whom he should assume to be fit for the director of a national gallery would make. He hoped that they should hear no more about Sir Charles Eastlake being an amiable man. [The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I did not say he was an amiable man.] Some one on the Treasury bench had met him with that argument. He (Mr. Coningham) looked upon Sir Charles Eastlake as a public man, and when he made such an error as the Holbein purchase, and as sending a Commission to Paris to purchase a spurious Titian, which had been hawked about London for years, he contended that such proceedings were open to comment and to blame, He was told that, already, a secretary had been appointed for the portrait gallery, at a salary of £100 a year, and he had no doubt that, gradually, other officers would creep in, until a considerable expense was entailed upon the country. He, therefore, would appeal to the Committee, as the guardians of the public purse to resist this grant, and to show to the Government, and to those who advised the Government in these matters, that a stop must be put to this system of irresponsible and useless expenditure.
  MR. DISRAELI: I must say, Sir, that I think that the remarks of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down are unfounded in fact and are erroneous in theory. The truth is that the hon. Gentleman has created a peculiar theory respecting Sir C. Eastlake, which influences all his opinions and distorts the conclusions of a clear and accomplished mind, which otherwise, I am sure, upon these subjects would be most instructive to the Committee. Sir C. Eastlake has little to do with this "miserable Vote," as it has been called, beyond exercising the influence which is exercised by any other trustee—[Mr. CONINGHAM: He is the professional trustee.] We really don't inquire when we meet in that room, whether a gentleman is a duke or a picture dealer, or the regulator of a gallery; but only whether he displays such an amount of taste and knowledge as will enable us to come to a satisfactory result. Sir C. Eastlake is only one of those trustees named by the Treasury to carry into effect the decisions of Parliament. It is very easy, no doubt, at this time to raise a protest against the expenditure of any
  1324
  public money, even for the purposes of enlightenment and education, for we are unhappily engaged in a very great struggle. We have before us a conjuncture of a magnitude which, with our alarmed imaginations, it is not very easy to conceive, and I agree that we ought to husband our resources and to be careful how we yield to appeals for devoting the public money to any other object than to maintain the existence of our empire and the glory of our country. At the same time, however, let us look at this question in that fair common sense manner in which we view the ordinary business of life. Now what was the origin of this Vote and of this Commission? An Address was moved and carried in the other House by Earl Stanhope, and her Majesty having returned a gracious reply to it, it became the duty of the Government to carry it into effect. The object of that Address was one which all must agree will, if well carried out, be of the greatest advantage to the country. It is to gather into one collection the names of all those who have illustrated our history, and whose names have become household words with all good Englishmen. However worthy of attack the hon. Gentleman may think Sir C. Eastlake, I cannot but consider that when the Government chose the members of the Commission they very properly placed upon it his name, as he is a gentleman of great knowledge and great taste, and one who brought to the Commission the high authority of his official position. But Sir C. Eastlake has not exercised any more influence over the proceedings of the Commission than any other member; indeed, I should say less. You must recollect that we have on that Commission such men as the Marquess of Lansdowne, Mr. Macaulay, Mr. Sidney Herbert, and Sir Francis Palgrave, who bring to the discharge of their trust a very extensive knowledge of the subjects connected with the intended collection. The hon. Gentleman argues this question as if our aim was to make a collection of fine pictures, but the gallery does not pretend to be anything of the sort. Its value depends on the authenticity of the portraits, and it is necessary, therefore, that there should be on the Commission persons qualified not only by their knowledge and study of works of art, but also by their command over all those sources of information by which the authenticity of historical portraits is to be decided, to take care that the public

  1325
  are not deceived. Sir C. Eastlake's opinion has always been most valuable, but it has not been obtrusively put forward, nor has it been predominant. Many of the points into which we have to inquire before determining on the acquisition of pictures have been such as Sir C. East-lake would possess no more special knowledge about than any other well-educated and accomplished man. The opinions of the noble President and of Mr. Macaulay on these points would be as valuable as those of Sir C. Eastlake; and Earl Stanhope, with a sufficient knowledge of art, but with a profound historical knowledge and an acquaintance with the details of collections, has exercised a greater influence over the Commission than Sir C. East-lake. The hon. Gentleman calls this a trifling miserable Vote; but it really is not, for it is a sufficient Vote. It never was intended that the public purse was to be open suddenly to collect together a considerable number of portraits; it was always assumed that there would be so much sympathy with the objects of the Commission that many persons in possession of portraits of historical value, animated by this national idea, would present them to the nation. That calculation has been found to be perfectly correct, and though the Commission has not been long in existence, very many interesting portraits have been offered to the country by individuals and families. I don't know whether the whole of the £2,000 voted last year has been spent yet, but if it has I am sure it has been expended with the greatest care. No purchase has been made without the utmost search and reflection, and when the gallery is open the public will see that a great result has been obtained at a very small expense, not only because our limited funds have been expended with admirable judgment, but also because the public sympathy with the objects of the Commission has been excited, and valuable treasures have been offered gratuitously to the gallery by our fellow-subjects. It was with great pain that I heard the hon. Gentleman speak in a very contemptuous tone of the Chandos portrait of Shakspeare, which has lately come into the possession of the country, as not being worth £10. I won't say a word as to its value as a work of art, though others, whose opinions stand very high, have entertained a very different estimation of its value,—but the Chandos Shakspeare has for a long period of years been looked upon as
  1326
  a memorable and interesting picture, and no doubt, very valuable. Whether it be worth £10 or £1,000, it didn't cost the country one shilling. It was munificently presented to the country by one who was long a Member of this House, and who will always be recollected with interest as a most accomplished patron of art, and a man of most refined tastes, who purchased it at the Stowe sale for £1,000. It was in consequence of the existence of the Commission that the Earl of Ellesmere presented that portrait to the nation. We have been in existence now for about a year, and we have acquired a considerable number of portraits infinitely more valuable in the aggregate than the £2,000 which has been voted to us. I don't think that the public funds could have been spent in a more judicious manner. Knowledge, taste, and experience have been combined to form a gallery which will be of the greatest advantage to the public. We owe much to Sir C. Eastlake, but more to the devotion and assiduity of our valuable chairman, who has given up his whole time to the duties of the Commission. Although, therefore, we may have arrived at a moment of danger in the public fortunes, I hope the Committee will not give way to an appeal to blot out a Vote of this kind—moderate in amount and very effective in its results. Surely there is higher game to fly at than a Vote of this sort. I know that I speak of these subjects quite as an unlettered man. I do not pretend to decide whether the Chandos Shakspeare is worth £10 or £1,000 guineas. I know that there is no character with whom competition is more to be dreaded than an amateur dilettante. I should not venture on asserting the authenticity of a Correggio, or disputing with such an amateur the Corregiocity of a picture. I have, however, exercising such knowledge as I possess, ventured to give my humble opinion in such way as I thought would prove beneficial to the public; and when the Gallery of Portraits is exhibited, I shall appeal with confidence to the verdict of the public on the result which has been effected by the labours of the Commission. The hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. Briscoe) complains that the Committee is not consulted on the pictures to be purchased. If I had had the least knowledge that the hon. Member was so profound a master of art as he has described himself to be, I would, when I was abroad, and when I was applied to to allow my name to be

  1327
  put on this Commission, not only have disclaimed all title to the distinction, but suggested that the hon. Member for West Surrey should be named in my place. With great respect to the hon. Member, I, however, think that the particular pictures to be purchased is a matter for the members of the Commission sitting in council, rather than for a Committee of this House. As we have only been twelve months in existence we only possess two dirty garrets in George Street, and with great deference to the taste and the profound knowledge which the hon. Member for Surrey tells us his long study has given him in matters of art, I can assure him that there was no intention on the part of the housekeeper to prevent him inspecting our collection. He might have mounted to our dusty rooms, and he would have seen there the Chandos portrait; he would have seen, too, a portrait of Dr. Mead, which I believe is of some interest; a portrait of Sir W. Wyndham in the robes of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and another of Sir Walter Raleigh, all of which have been acquired without any cost to the country. But it is totally impossible, while the collection is in its present stage, that it should be open to everybody who chooses to knock at the door, and step in to examine a picture. We have only had a year; but give us a lustrum, let us enjoy the benefit of this small Vote for five years, and then let us show you an exhibition of portraits which will prove that we have not betrayed the public trust. You will then have what you have never had yet—the foundation of a gallery of portraits in which you will see all the eminent men who have made the character of this country—of English worthies on which the youth of the country can look and become worthies in their turn. I understand the object of a National Gallery of portraits to be, not to produce fine pictures, but authentic portraits of eminent men. In that spirit it was the Commissioners commenced their deliberations. The Commission numbers among its members some of the best judges in this country, and it is only six months since we arrived at those conditions which are to regulate our acceptance and our purchase of pictures. If the hon. Member (Mr. Drummond) chooses to move for a copy of these conditions, I have no hesitation in saying that we shall offer no objection to their production. As I have just observed, our resolutions have only been come to within the last six or seven
  1328
  months, and the consequence has already been that you have received in public tribute—in donations from a sympathising country, infinitely more in value than you have expended in public money. I do entreat the Committee, therefore, not to be led away by the prejudices of the hon. Gentleman, excited on quite a different subject, and not rashly and precipitately to crush a project, humble in the claims it makes upon the public purse, but which in its results may be most important and highly conducive to the honour and interests of the country.
  COLONEL FRENCHsaid, that if he trusted his ears he should suppose the discussion to turn on the respective merits of the hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond) and Sir Charles Eastlake, instead of the formation of a National Portrait Gallery. For his part he agreed with those who thought the present was no time for such trifles as these. The Chancellor of the Exchequer who now spoke in such duleet tones in favour of this Vote would, by-and-by, propose the increase of the income-tax on account of the wars in which we were engaged. He should certainly oppose the Vote.
  MR. CONINGHAM, in explanation, denied that it had been his intention to make a personal attack on the Commission; he only wished to expose the system.
  Motion made, and Question put,—
  "That a sum, not exceeding £2,000, be granted to Her Majesty, towards the formation, in the year ending the 31st day of March, 1858, of the Gallery of Portraits of the most Eminent Persons in British History."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 85; Noes 31: Majority 54.
  Vote agreed to.
  (2.) £2,000, Cholera in the West Indies.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he wished to ask how long these Votes were to continue? The present was the fourth during the last six years. He thought it high time this inquiry should cease.
  MR. WILSONreplied, that the inquiry was now drawing to a close, and that this Vote would probably be the last.
  Vote agreed to.
  (3.) £500, Works at Spurn Point, River Humber.
  MR. A. SMITHsaid, he wished to ask whether, if the claims put forward to the fore shore on the part of the Woods and Forests were to be established, that Department

  1329
  ought not to take upon itself the repairs of the shore in return for the pecuniary advantage they expected to derive?
  MR. ADAMSasked whether there was in existence any report upon these works subsequent to the letter from the Government Engineer to the Secretary of the Admiralty dated the 6th of May last, which appeared in the Estimates, and from which it seemed to him that the works already erected at a cost of £22,000 were about to be abandoned, and that the authorities were going to trust to the action of the wind and the currents for the formation of a bank of shingle or sand. He also was desirous of calling attention to the fact that the letter to which he had referred stated that if no breach occurred £500 would be sufficient to meet the current expenses. If, however, a gale occurred it was not unlikely that the whole island and lighthouse would be swept away, and therefore he wished to know what sum would be needed supposing that a breach did occur?
  SIR CHARLES WOODstated that no further report had been received, and he could not give any very satisfactory or conclusive opinion as to the security of the works. It was at present a matter of the greatest uncertainty. No portion of the Vote had reference to any works on the Island on which Spurn Lighthouse stood; that was under the superintendence of the Trinity House; and the works undertaken by the Government were intended to fill up two breaches in the bank which connected the island with the main land. These breaches were made three or four years ago. The smaller of them was completely filled up, and the larger one was also pretty effectually stopped, when it was found that the sea was throwing up a new bank of sand directly in front of it, and it was now thought that the Humber would be more effectually separated from the sea by this new bank than by any work that could be undertaken short of the formation of a breakwater, which would be a very costly work indeed. It moreover appeared by the old reports of Mr. Smeaton that the same thing had occurred many years ago. He did not, however, think that there was any great prospect of a breach occurring in the existing works, and would remind the hon. Member that it was not usual to present estimates for such contingencies.
  LORD HOTHAMsaid, he would give no opinion as to the probability or improbability of a new breach being made in these works,
  1330
  but he recommended the right hon. Baronet to take such precautions as, if adopted in the first instance, would have saved a large part of the £22,000 which had been expended upon these works. Had any one competent to deal with such matters been upon the spot when these breaches were first made by the sea, he believed that they could have been stopped at a cost of as many hundreds as there had now been expended thousands. A great deal of damage was done by the delay which took place before the breach was repaired.
  Vote agreed to.
  (4.) £10,000, Additional Churches and Parsonage Houses.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, be would divide the Committee against this Vote. The Government very wisely withdrew last year the Vote which they had intended to ask on this subject, and he thought that such a Vote would never have made its appearance again in the Estimates. It was stated that this Vote was a contribution on the part of the Crown. Why, it was a contribution from taxes levied on the people at large. The Crown had nothing whatever to do with it. The Crown did not even contribute any part of those taxes. He was told, however, that the Secretary to the Treasury meant to make this pretence—that the money was to be given out of the proceeds of Crown property, commonly called the Woods and Forests. Well, that property no more belonged to the Crown than it did to the hon. Gentleman himself. The Crown had surrendered that property in consideration of receiving the allowance of the Civil List, and a very good bargain the Crown made by the exchange. Since Her Majesty's accession to the throne the annual rental of the Woods and Forests had not exceeded, on an average of years, £150,000, whereas the Civil List amounted to £385,000 a year. He did not find fault with the exchange made by the Crown. He wished every prosperity to the Church, and he was glad at all times to hear of the building of additional churches and the formation of additional congregations, but he contended that no greater injury could be inflicted on the Church than the building of new churches out of the public taxes. The Dissenters never came to that House to ask for the public money for building new chapels or churches. Neither the Established Church of Scotland, nor the Free Church of Scotland, nor even the Roman Catholics of Ireland, who were all without

  1331
  property, relied on voluntary efforts alone for the support of their churches and were never found coming to that House for the public money for the building of their places of worship. The property of the Church of England was enormous in amount. No complete return had been made out of the many millions of money annually received from the property of the Church. Was it just, then, to ask that House to tax the people of this country for building churches and parsonage houses in, above all other places, this wealthy metropolis? He was acquainted with many parts of the metropolis which had built churches at their own expense, and provided sufficient church accommodation for the whole of the population. Even the Church in Ireland, which was in a declining state, never came to that House to ask for money for the building of new churches. He therefore hoped that the Committee would resist this Vote, especially when, as he had already observed in an earlier part of the evening, this country would have plenty to do with its money without building new churches with it. The noble Lord the Member for the City of London and the hon. Member for Surrey had that evening remarked upon the vast increase in the Civil Service Estimates. The noble Lord had told them that during the Premiership of the late Sir R. Peel those Estimates amounted to £4,000,000, and that a few years before, while the Duke of Wellington was Premier, and in the last Session of an unreformed Parliament, they wore only £2,000,000. The Committee would be astonished to hear that the Civil Service Estimates for this year amounted to £7,465,878, and that those for this year exceeded those for 1856 by £741,000.
  MR. WILSONsaid, he would at once state the ground on which the Government had thought it their duty to propose this Vote. There might be differences of opinion as to the policy of Government holding such a property as that of the Woods and Forests, but he thought there would be no difference at all—at least the principle had been acknowledged by the House on several occasions—that if the Government or the Crown held property, the Government or the Crown was bound to discharge the duties attached to property. The hon. Gentleman appeared to have altogether lost sight of the fact that within the precints of the Metropolis the Government possessed property the net
  1332
  annual rental of which was £150,000. Besides that property the Government owned property which, when the leases fell in, would yield a clear annual income of £500,000. The Government also possessed a variety of buildings—not less than 147—used for public purposes, including the Customs and Inland Revenue, which brought about the Metropolis a large population, and therefore rendered necessary additional church accommodation in the Metropolis. The origin of this Vote was this:—There had been a great want of accommodation in the new parts of London within the last few years. [Mr. W. WILLIAMS: In what part?] In the new parts of London; he could not exactly say where. But it was a notorious fact that in the north-western and in the new parts of London there was a great want of church accommodation. Under these circumstances the large proprietors in London were appealed to for donations for the building of new churches. The Marquess of Westminster was applied to, and he put his name down for £10,000. The Duke of Bedford was applied to, and he put his name down for £10,000. Now, as the Executive Government was also a large, and, in fact, the largest proprietor in the Metropolis, it was thought but fitting that it should contribute £10,000 for the building of new churches, which it was to the interest not only of the inhabitants, but to the holders of property and to the public generally, should be built where there was no church accommodation. The Executive Government felt that as they were landlords it was their duty to fulfil the ordinary duties of landlords. This was not the first occasion on which the House was asked to grant money for the building of churches on Crown property. Votes had often been asked for the building of new churches to accommodate those employed in the Customs as well as those engaged in the Coastguard service. The only ground on which this Vote was asked for was, that within the Metropolis the Crown was a large owner of property, and that it was to the interest of the Crown that it should faithfully discharge the duty of a proprietor by providing for the spiritual wants of those who dwelt upon its property.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he begged to tender his thanks to the Government for having included this Vote in the Estimates, as it was one which, after the statement of the hon. Gentleman, the Secretary to the Treasury, every one must feel

  1333
  impossible to be resisted. The hon. Member for Lambeth seemed to think that the Secretary to the Treasury was very much taken by surprise because he could not at once answer in what part of the Metropolis the proposed church accommodation was needed; but he suspected that the hon. Member himself would have been far more perplexed if the Secretary to the Treasury had reversed the question, and had asked him to say in what part of the Metropolis additional church accommodation was not needed. He believed that the population of this Metropolis was increasing at the rate of 60,000 a year, and not only outgrowing all the existing church accommodation, but also all the means of supplying new. For his own part, he thought that the Government were only performing an act of duty in asking for this Vote, and he should not object in future years to see the sum increased.
  MR. GILPINsaid, that the Secretary for the Treasury had stated that the Government held property for the Crown. Now, that property was not hold for the Crown, but it was public property, and the hon. Gentleman went on to say that it was only proper to do with respect to that property what was done by the large landholders in London. Now, the two cases appeared to him to be entirely distinct from each other. Those landholders held their property to their own use, and were responsible to themselves alone; but the property to which the hon. Gentleman had referred was held on behalf of the nation, which contained persons of many different religions persuasions, and that being so it appeared to him to be inconsistent with the true principle of religious liberty to apply any of the money which arose from that property to the furtherance of any particular sect. Therefore, regarding the Vote as an infringement of the principles of religious liberty, he should give it his most strenuous opposition.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, that the hon. Member for Lambeth had stated that the Church of Ireland, although in a declining condition, never came to Parliament for assistance. It was true that they never asked for a grant; but one reason for that was, that they were well aware that it would not be given to them. Not only practically was nothing given to them, but, acting upon the principle laid down by Lord Melbourne, that Protestantism was to get heavy blows and great discouragement, attempts were constantly made to
  1334
  take away from her that which she already possessed. During the present Session no less than £12,000 a year had been taken from the property of the Church in Ireland, and Parliament had done this at a moment when there were applications to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for grants in aid of new churches to thrice that amount. It was not true that the Church in Ireland was declining, for in his own neighbourhood six or seven churches had been built. As to the Vote itself, he considered it a virtuous and proper Vote, and he was surprised, therefore, at its being proposed by the Treasury, because many of the Votes proposed by them had been most improper Votes. He could not agree that it was an infringement of any principle of religious liberty; but, on the contrary, it was very desirable that facilities should be afforded to the inhabitants of the metropolis for worshipping on the Sabbath day.
  MR. MONCKTON MILNESsaid, he should support the Vote on grounds of social economy. It was most natural that in making any addition to the population of a parish, and after building a certain number of houses, a church should also be built. It appeared to him to be a simple case of the owner of property using that property to the best advantage.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he looked upon the Vote as being objectionable. The question depended upon whether that House was or was not a trustee of this property for the benefit of the whole nation, and if they were, then they had no right to apply any portion of it to build churches for any particular place. It was, moreover, a very important question whether there was any necessity to grant any money at all, and he was satisfied that if the Church property in the Metropolis itself were properly managed, there would be more than enough to provide accommodation for all persons belonging to the Established Church. He might point to the churches empty, and the clergy without employment in the City, and ask why both were not removed to the newer parts of the Metropolis, whither the population had gone? Again, there were large estates in London, such for instance as the Finsbury estate, which would be shortly worth £30,000 a year, and which had been rendered valuable solely by the increase of population, and yet the proceeds of that property were taken possession of by a body which Parliament had thought

  1335
  proper to appoint, and distributed in every part of the country from which applications for assistance might come. If Parliament were to lay down the principle of withholding all such grants as the present, the abuses which existed in the present management of Church property would be forced upon the notice of Parliament and the attention of the country, and then they might be redressed; but there was no hope of that being done so long as Parliament continued to vote these grants.
  MR. PACKEobserved, he was surprised that any objection should be made to the Vote, and he hoped the Committee would agree to it.
  SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, he wished to state the reasons which induced him to vote in favour of this grant. There had been great voluntary efforts and large subscriptions on the part of landed proprietors in London. The largest proprietor, however, was the Crown. If the hereditary revenue existed the Crown would be, no doubt, called upon for a contribution. The question was, did the compact made with the Crown by Parliament release Parliament from the obligation in this respect, which rested with the Crown? He (Sir F. Baring) believed it did not. Was property relieved from its duties and liabilities because it was in the hands of the Crown? This was a contribution on the part of the nation and the Crown, and in former times the Woods and Forests would have granted this money without coming to Parliament. The present was much the better mode, and he trusted that Parliament would enable the Woods and Forests to perform those duties which, as a great landed proprietor, the Crown could not be relieved from the duty of discharging.
  MR. BRISCOEsaid, he thought that the application might fairly be made to the large amount of property belonging to the see of London without coming to the public Exchequer for money for church accommodation. There was in Surrey a Diocesan Building Society, to which he was a contributor, and the House might next be asked to subscribe to that fund. But, was there this want of church accommodation? He sometimes attended churches in the east of London, where the congregations were very small, and yet, although there were Westminster Abbey and St. Paul's, it had been thought advisable to have recourse to Exeter Hall. He entertained great doubts of the justice and policy of this Vote.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he felt bound to state, as reference had been made to the property of the see of London, that Bishop Blomfield subscribed to this very fund no less a sum than £5,000.
  MR. BEALEsaid, that landowners frequently subscribed towards the erection of churches, in the hope that the value of their lands would be thereby enhanced. If it were said that the value of the property of the State would be also enhanced by the building of new churches, that was an intelligible ground for voting this money. But the Secretary to the Treasury did not know where this property was situated, and unless he heard better reasons for this Vote he should divide against it.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he believed it would be difficult to define the position of the very extensive property belonging to the Crown; but in the neighbourhood of the Regent's Park and in the suburbs of the Metropolis, the Crown was a large proprietor. In these suburbs a large population was growing up, and it was most desirable that new churches should be built in these districts.
  MR. DRUMMONDremarked, that he was strongly of opinion that this was not the best way of considering the spiritual destitution of the people. For the convenience of the clergy and the rich a very bad custom had been adopted by lumping a great many services together, instead of separating the morning prayer from the Litany, and both from the Eucharist. The present morning prayer consisted, in fact, of three distinct services, which ought to be celebrated at different periods of the day. Toleration at present was confounded with the support of the Church of England alone; but he would rather see a grant to other churches, in addition to this Vote of £10,000 for the Established Church. There could be no doubt there was great spiritual destitution in London. The Crown was the owner of a great deal of property in London, much of it situated in the worst and most depraved districts. He believed that a great increase of spiritual accommodation was necessary, and, although the present Vote was not the best way of supplying the want, he would not oppose the grant.
  MR. COXsaid, that the noble Lord at the head of the Government had announced his intention to bring in a Bill for the abolition of church rates. The noble

  1337
  Lord said he would bring in a Bill in a short time, and when he was asked what a short time' meant, he said 'during the present Session.' The Session was now nearly at an end, and there was at present no proof that it was the noble Lord's intention to bring in such a Bill. The present Vote, on the contrary, looked very like a church rate in a different form, and though he was a member of the Established Church he should oppose it. If the Committee voted this £10,000 for churches for one sect they would make other sects pay for it. Why should not Dissenters and Roman Catholics come to Parliament for money wherewith to build churches? He had been for two years churchwarden of a church which would hold 800 or 900 persons, and he could assure the Committee that the largest congregation consisted of seventy-five persons at the morning and twenty-five at the afternoon service. Could it be said that there was a want of church accommodation when in the city of London there were scores of churches that would hold thousands and were only frequented by hundreds, and scores of rectors who got £1,000 a year for preaching in empty churches? It was said that as the Crown possessed properly it ought to contribute like other landowners. But every one would admit that a Roman Catholic proprietor would have a right to contribute towards Roman Catholic places of worship alone and so of proprietors of other sects. If the Roman Catholics or the Baptists came to that House and asked for £4,000 or £5,000 for new churches, would they get it? The property belonged to the nation, for the benefit of all sects, and it could not be properly appropriated towards any one sect unless Parliament was prepared to make similar contributions towards other Churches.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, he would contend that, in proportion as Parliament made provision for the building of churches throughout the country, in the same proportion would a check be placed upon the liberality of individual members of the community in promoting that object. There were in the United Kingdom between 25,000 and 30,000 places of religious worship, in the erection and maintenance of which no assistance had been derived from the State, and he could not help thinking that it was in the highest degree mean and shabby, that that which was the wealthiest denomination of Christians in
  1338
  this country should come to ask the House of Commons for a grant of £10,000 to be paid out of the public taxes for the purpose of church extension. Did the Committee believe that the Marquess of Westminster and the Duke of Bedford were the only churchmen who would contribute their £10,000 each? Let the Church beware of placing itself in the position of a favoured sect, or they would soon have a controversy of another sort—a controversy which would shake the Church to its very basis.
  Motion made, and Question put,—
  "That a sum, not exceeding £10,000, be granted to Her Majesty, as a contribution, in the year ending the 31st day of March, 1858, on the part of the Crown, towards the Fund of the London Diocesan Church Building Society, for building additional Churches and Parsonage Houses."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 97; Noes 56: Majority 41.
  Vote agreed to.
  (5.) £10,300, Fortifications at Corfu.
  MR. WISEsaid, he would take that occasion of asking in what the nature of our relations with the Ionian Islands consisted; whether they were to be regarded as an English colony, or simply as a republic under British protection. He should also like to hear from the Government some explanation of the Vote before the Committee, inasmuch as he was not quite aware whether the fortifications, for the repair of which it was to be granted, were to be maintained for the purpose of protecting the Corfuites against us, or us against the Corfuites.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he hardly need inform his hon. Friend that the Ionian Islands constituted a separate State, under British protection, or that it was looked upon as a great advantage in a national point of view that we should continue to occupy the important military position which those Islands afforded. The maintenance of the necessary military establishment consequent upon our occupation of that position necessarily entailed a considerable amount of expenditure, but it had not been deemed just, inasmuch as that expenditure was incurred for Imperial objects, to impose the entire of it as a burden upon the inhabitants of those Islands. An arrangement had, however, been entered into with them some years ago, in accordance with which they had guaranteed the annual payment of a sum of £25,000 into the British Exchequer towards defraying the charges incident to our outlay in that quarter for military purposes.

  1339
  The money was required for clearing away a number of old rubbishy fortifications, which were not only no longer necessary now, but were so many absolute impediments to sanitary arrangements and commercial facilities. The state in which those crowded fortifications remained in the Ionian Islands was really a disgrace to this country, and their removal had been recommended by our engineers as essentially necessary for maintaining the strength of the really useful portions of the fortifications at Corfu, and for the sanitary improvement of the town.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he thought that the right hon. Gentleman in suggesting the necessity of these works in a sanitary point of view, had adduced the best possible reason why the inhabitants of Corfu should pay for them. He thought it most probable that the fortifications were erected to protect us against the Ionians, as it was impossible to have more deadly foes than the Ionian Islanders had shown themselves to this country. He thought the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) was the only person in the House who believed that it was any great advantage to this country to have possession of those islands. We were pledged to maintain a large military force there, and of what value was the place to us? At the treaty of Vienna, most, if not all, of the European Powers refused to have anything to do with the protectorate of the Ionian Islands, and they went a-begging, as it were, until at last this country generously took them under its protection.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he would beg to reiterate the statement that the removal of the old and useless part of the fortifications was absolutely necessary for sanitary purposes and for maintaining the strength of Corfu as a military position, and he would at the same time remind the hon. Member for Lambeth that a much higher authority than either he or himself (Mr. Lubouchere) had declared how important it was that we should continue to hold possession of Corfu.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, he would also take leave to controvert the statement made by the hon. Member for Lambeth that this country had no more deadly foes than the inhabitants of Corfu. [Mr. WILLIAMS: Than the inhabitants of the Ionian Islands.] He believed there never was a more complete misapprehension than that under which the hon. Member appeared to labour, for the people of Corfu were in a remarkable
  1340
  degree peaceable and well disposed to this country, and what had led to disturbances there were the mischievous efforts made by a few English malcontents and grumblers to engraft the English constitution on a garrison town.
  MR. STAFFORDsaid, he thought if any fault was to be found with the Vote it was that it was rather too small than otherwise. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Williams) had obviously taken his opinion of the Ionian Islands from certain statements—erroneous, as he (Mr. Stafford) believed—which recently appeared in some of the public prints. He would avail himself of that opportunity of paying a tribute of admiration and gratitude to one whom he did not think that House or the country had appreciated as he deserved to be. He alluded to Sir H. Ward, the former Lord High Commissioner. He thought the manner in which that gentleman had maintained the perfect tranquillity of the islands in the defenceless state in which they were left during the last war, with Athens on the one hand and Albania on the other, proved him to be a man who deserved well of his country. If during so extremely difficult a period he had been instrumental in mitigating or quelling any disturbances that might have taken place, he would have been the subject of eulogy in that House. But he deserved the higher credit of having prevented all disturbances whatever, and maintained complete tranquillity and obedience to the law throughout a very serious crisis. He (Mr. Stafford) had stated these facts of his own knowledge, he having been twice in the Ionian Islands during the war; and, though he hold political opinions different from those of Sir H. Ward, he could not help paying that tribute of admiration and gratitude to him.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he entirely concurred with the hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford) in feeling that a debt of gratitude was due from this country to Sir H. Ward for the ability displayed by him under very trying circumstances in the Ionian Islands. Something had been said in that House as to the present state of feeling in the Ionian Islands, which he thought was exaggerated, for he had received from his right hon. Friend Sir J. Young, the present Lord High Commissioner, a despatch apprising him of the termination of the legislative Session, and he (Mr. Labouchere) believed it was the first time since the constitution

  1341
  was established there that it had not been found necessary to cut the Session short by a prorogation. Some very useful measures had been passed, and the Session had terminated in a peaceable and satisfactory way. It was true that some violent language had been used in the course of a debate, but he believed that was much exaggerated by the reports in some of the newspapers. He certainly thought the Assembly had behaved better during the past Session than it had done for some years, and that great credit was due to Sir John Young for the manner in which he had discharged the functions of his office.
  Vote agreed to; as was also,
  (6.) £2,000, Testimonial to the Duke of Wellington, Phœnix Park.
  £10,500 for the purchase of a Chapel in the Rue d' Aguesseau, at Paris, for the use of the British residents and visitors in that city.
  MR. WISEsaid, he was desirous of calling the attention of the Committee to the fact that the chapel had been already purchased and £2,000 advanced from the civil contingencies on account of its purchase. He must enter his objection to the principle upon which that had been done. A contract had been entered into, and money paid on account, without the sanction of Parliament having been first obtained. The facts, he said, connected with the chapel in question were these: It was erected some years ago by Bishop Luscombe, at a cost of £6,000, and it was distinctly understood at the time, that after he had repaid himself that sum he was to transfer the building to the British Embassy. The bishop, on becoming an old man, changed his mind, and offered to let the British Government have the chapel in consideration of his receiving an annuity of £1,000. The British Government having declined that offer, a gentleman in Paris accepted it, and, Bishop Luscombe dying six months after the transaction had been completed, the gentleman in question got the chapel for £500. The Bishop of London applied to the Earl of Aberdeen to make this purchase in 1846, and a Treasury Minute, dated February 4, 1846, stated that their Lordships were of opinion that strong objections existed as to the propriety of the Government buying the property on any terms, and that if a suitable building for divine service was necessary the funds should be provided under the 12th section of the 6th of Geo. IV.,
  1342
  c. 47. The former Lord Cowley and the Earl of Aberdeen both pressed the late Sir Robert Peel to reconsider that Minute, and there was a second Minute to the effect that the Treasury saw no reason to modify the opinion previously expressed. In 1849 the Marquess of Normanby communicated with the noble Lord at the head of the Government of the subject, and a long correspondence passed between them. On May 7, 1849, the Marquess of Normanby wrote that as M. Chamnier, the purchaser of the chapel, had asked the exorbitant sum of £10,000, the possibility of treating was at an end. On the 28th of October, 1850, the Marquess of Normanby wrote that as the Rev. M. Chamnier required £10,000, he did not pursue the matter further. He had shown the opinions of the Treasury in 1846 and of the Marquess of Normanby in 1850 as to the principle and the price. Her Majesty's Government, in taking the course which they had adopted, had in reality superseded a well-known Act of Parliament. The Act provided that if any English subjects in any city, town, or port, desired a chapel, hospital, or cemetery, they should show their desire by subscribing a certain amount, and Her Majesty's Government would then advance the other moiety. That was a principle which he could understand, and a few years ago the English at Paris understood it. They had a meeting, and suggested that if Her Majesty's Government would advance £3,000 they would find £3,000. If that had been done the Act of Geo. IV. would have come into operation, and the House of Commons would have had nothing to say upon the subject. Since the Act of Geo. IV. they had paid £218,820 in these foreign chapels. From 1844 to 1857 the Vote had increased from £4,000 to £8,000 for consular chapels, exclusive of special Votes for chapels at Constantinople. He must say conscientiously that the present system of having the service at one time in the drawing-room and at another time in the dining-room must be a source of constant annoyance to the embassy and of discomfort to the English residents. But then came the question whether they were bound to provide church accommodation for all the English who chose to go abroad. At the chapel now contracted for there had been a custom of charging a frane, or some small sum, for admission of the English nobility and gentry. It was no more than was done in London. Seats which were free were generally attached to mansions, or farm-houses,

  1343
  or other dwellings in the country, but he apprehended the great mass of the population of the metropolis rented their seats, and contributed voluntarily to the support of their churches. It seemed very unfair to ask the Committee to vote £10,500 for the specific accommodation of the most wealthy, the most elegant, and the most accomplished of our countrymen who went to live at Paris. When they considered what an embassy chapel was, that some of those who attended attached less importance than ordinary to religious duties, that many others went there, to his knowledge, to make assignations, they ought to pause before they voted away the public money. He would answer for it that the religious of the English community did not go to the English Embassy chapel, but to other places where the religious instruction was of a very different character. It was high time that they should look after these sort of Votes. The house expenses at Paris were £2,725; the salaries of the embassy came to about £20,000; and they had already paid £89,000 for the ambassador's house. There was a chapel already in the Champs Elysées capable of holding 600 or 700 persons, and yet they were called upon to pay the large sum of £10,500 for another chapel at Paris. He wished to ask why the opinion of the House was not taken last year? He happened to know that in March, 1856, the owners of the chapel were asked by the Government to sell it, and the price was then £9,000. He wanted to know why it was now £10,500? He was also informed that the chapel was sold to an American, and after the purchase the pressure on the British Ambassador was so great that legal proceedings were threatened. Some old projet de loi, or something of that sort, was brought into operation, by which the person who held the chapel was put into great difficulties. Some ancient will or agreement of Bishop Luscombe was brought against him, and the American gentleman was obliged to give up his purchase. He should like to hear further details of this little story which he had picked up in Paris. The Government might make contracts and payments out of civil contingencies in cases of emergency and sudden calamity, and the House would meet them generously and liberally; but this question had been hovering over them for ten years. He had been on the watch five or six years, and he deemed himself specially "done" when he found the money was paid, the bargain
  1344
  made, and the Bill presented for payment. The Treasury ought to be the great check upon the public expenditure, and proceedings of this kind must have a tendency to diminish, if not to destroy, confidence in the Treasury. They were told by high authority that the notion of confidence did not exist in the British constitution, that they must not have confidence in any one, and that it was the business of everybody to look to details. But he found that that was almost impossible. Perhaps the only way was to adopt the views of some of the Members of the Public Moneys Committee which had lately sat, and impose the wholesome and salutary checks upon the public accounts which were recommended by a Commission as far back as 1831. If the Committee sanctioned this Vote he thought that Estimates and Committees of Supply would be a delusion and a snare. In this case a contract had been made, £2,000 had been advanced from the Civil Contingency Fund, and the House of Commons was expected to register with blind subserviency the will of a Minister. He should resist such a proposition, and divide the Committee against the whole Vote.
  MR. WILSONsaid, the hon. Gentleman had described very accurately the various attempts which had been made to procure an English chapel in Paris. It was a fact, that in every metropolis where there was an English Embassy there were a chapel and a chaplain. The House had recently voted a considerable sum for repairing the Embassy chapel in Constantinople. The hon. Gentleman had stated that, in 1849, the Marquess of Normanby recommended the purchase of the chapel in Paris, but thought that £10,000 was too large a sum to pay for it. The hon. Gentleman did not deny that there had always been a chapel at Paris; and he had also proved to the Committee the inconvenient character of the one which had existed, by stating that on one Sunday the dining-room, and on another the drawing-room, of the Embassy were used for the purposes of Divine worship. No doubt such had been the case, and it was that very circumstance which had induced successive Governments to endeavour to find a suitable chapel. It was proposed at first that the Government should build a chapel on the site of an old stable-yard attached to the Embassy; but it was soon ascertained that, owing to the great increase in the value of property in Paris since 1849, the erection of a chapel upon that spot

  1345
  would cost far more than what had been paid for the chapel now under discussion. The necessity of having a chapel being admitted, what the Government had to consider was, the best and most economical mode by which one could be obtained. In 1849, the Marquess of Normanby thought the price asked for the chapel in the Rue d'Aguesseau too high, and, until the present year, no opportunity presented itself for making the purchase. Now, seeing that the House had voted £300, £400, and £500, annually, for converting one of the rooms of the Embassy into an inconvenient chapel, he thought that the purchase of a commodious chapel for £9,000 could not be called an extravagant arrangement. The circumstances under which the purchase was made might be stated in a few words. In January last, Lord Cowley wrote to the Earl of Clarendon that the chapel in the Rue d'Aguessean was at last for sale, and that he hoped the Government would consent to its purchase. Subsequently it was ascertained that the chapel had been sold to some American gentlemen for the use of an American congregation. The English residents in Paris were anxious to possess the chapel, not only because it was much required, but also because it had been built and always occupied as an English chapel. After considerable negotiation, the American gentlemen consented to give up the purchase, and allow Lord Cowley to get possession of the chapel on behalf of the English Government. The purchase money was £9,000—the difference between that sum and the amount of the Vote being required for repairs and various other expenses. The hon. Gentleman had said that it was not the duty of the House of Commons to provide a chapel for the rich English people who chose to reside in Paris, and so far he (Mr. Wilson) agreed with him; but such was not the intention of the Vote. A number of free seats had been retained for the use of the poor English residents in Paris; but it was calculated that a sufficient number would be let to pay all the musical and other expenses of the chapel; so that, in point of fact, the Government had secured a chapel attached to the Embassy, in which the chaplain of the Embassy would officiate, and the annual cost of which would be paid by the congregation. The hon. Gentleman had referred to an Act which provided for the erection of chapels, hospitals, and burial-grounds abroad, upon the English residents
  1346
  paying part of the cost; but the present was not an analogous case at all. If the Government had thought it was, they need not have come to Parliament for a Vote; and it was only because the chapel in Paris was an Embassy chapel that they had felt themselves bound to make an application to that House.
  MR. HANKEYasked the Secretary of the Treasury whether he knew of another instance in which an Embassy chapel was supported by pew rents?
  MR. WILSONsaid, there were a great number of chapels where the pews were let. He did not know whether that was the case in Constantinople; but he hoped his hon. Friend did not mean to say that, after a considerable number of pews had been retained for the English poor in Paris, the rich persons who used the chapel in the Rue d'Aguesseau should not pay a moderate sum for the accommodation they found there.
  MR. HORSMANsaid, the Committee ought to proceed on some intelligible principle. If they were unable to vote more than £10,000 for providing religious instruction to the poor at home—although there was an immense mass of spiritual destitution in this Metropolis which they confessed themselves unable to overtake—they would not be justified in voting £10,500 for the benefit of a single congregation, the wealthiest that could be found in Paris. He really thought the last class that ought to ask for public money was that most wealthy and most aristocratic class who visited the most luxurious capital of the Continent for purposes of pleasure. The negotiations for this chapel had been going on for years, and the purchase had been declined years since by the late Sir Robert Peel, on the ground that the price was enormous. Was it lower now, or were our means more abundant than in former years? For himself, he could not but protest against such a lavish expenditure of public money; and he hoped the Committee would agree with him that it ought not to be sanctioned.
  LORD HARRY VANEremarked, that he thought that most forcible objections had been urged against the Vote, which had not been satisfactorily answered by the hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Treasury. In the first place, the hon. Gentleman had not fairly stated the case. As far as his (Lord H. Vane's) knowledge extended, there had never, except under

  1347
  the particular Act of Parliament which had been referred to, been any grant of public money for chapels abroad. He believed there were chaplains attached to embassies and to missions, but there were no chapels except in the single case of Constantinople. The chaplain was intended to be the personal chaplain of the Ambassador and those connected with the mission. It had never been intended to grant public money to build churches abroad; but, in order to assist the efforts of those who wished for them, the particular Act had been passed, by which, upon one-half of the amount required being subscribed, the Government were authorized to grant the remainder from the Consolidated Fund. That was a very proper arrangement, and why it had been departed from he could not comprehend. He remembered Bishop Luscombe taking the chapel, but he did it as a speculation, and his successor did the same. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman) that the wealthy persons who attended that chapel were able to provide for it; and he thought, if the Government had refused to grant the money, a sufficient sum would have been raised to warrant the Government in applying the provisions of the Act of Parliament. He could not see that any ground for the Vote had been established; but, on the contrary, he was of opinion that it was a departure from the general rule to which he hoped the Committee would not give its consent.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I cannot understand the force of my right hon. Friend's argument, that so long as there are any poor unprovided for no expenditure is to be incurred except for their relief, because, if that argument is pushed to its legitimate conclusion, we must apply the whole public revenue in the shape of poor-rates. That argument, however plausible and ad captandum, will not bear investigation, and therefore does not tell much against this or any other proposal. It is asserted that the British residents in Paris are entirely an aristocratical body and ought to find their own chapel. That is not the fact. There are 10,000 British residents in Paris—a fluctuating population—while of those who are established in Paris many are of the lower classes, who have gone there to exercise their industry, and persons far from being in affluent circumstances and not capable of contributing to the purchase of a chapel.
  1348
  It has long been a reproach to the British nation that there has been no place of public worship in Paris available for all British subjects. There has been the dining-room of the Embassy for a few, and it could not hold many, who went there on Sundays for religious purposes. My noble Friend (Lord H. Vane) says chaplains are appointed to embassies for the private use of the ambassador and his family,—in short as their domestic chaplains. That is by no means the case, and Parliament would never have voted the salaries of chaplains upon any such footing. The chaplains attached to embassies are appointed to minister to all British subjects who may resort to the capital where the embassy is placed. This has been argued as an exceptional case, as if Parliament had not been in the habit of finding funds for the purpose of providing places of Divine worship for British subjects abroad; but that statement is refuted by the arguments of those who make it. In point of fact, sums of money are available from the Consolidated Fund in aid of public worship at every consular establishment. The whole amount is not given, only the half, but in principle it makes no difference whether one-half or the whole amount be given. It may be a question of amount; but it is not a question of principle. At all places where consuls are established the Consular Act enables the Government to give a sum equal to that which may be subscribed by the residents. The British residents in consular towns—seaport towns—are persons whose residence there is fixed; they have permanent interests in the place, and may therefore fairly be called upon to subscribe for the purchase of a permanent place of worship. But the majority of those affluent persons, British subjects, in Paris, who have been referred to, are those who go there for six weeks or two months, and you cannot expect persons whose residence is so temporary to contribute largely for a permanent chapel in a place which they may not revisit for three or four years. My hon. Friend the Secretary for the Treasury has stated, nevertheless, that there will be payments made for a certain number of seats, and those payments will furnish funds for all current expenses for the maintenance of the chapel. I am sure none of those whom I am addressing, who have been in Paris during the last few years, can fail to be aware that there has been a general feeling of shame that British subjects had no

  1349
  decent place of worship wherein the chaplain of the Embassy could minister to them. I should really hope that this Vote, which is calculated to supply a deficiency that has long been felt, will be agreed to. It is said that there was an understanding that Parliament would not vote and the Government would not propose any sum for the purpose of this chapel, but that the British residents there should raise the means, and that was being done. The fact is that the British residents in Paris never have, and never would, supply a sum sufficient to build a suitable chapel. I do hope the Committee will agree that this is not a matter depending on a principle of established practice, but is a Vote intended to supply a want that has been grievously felt by British subjects in Paris, and to remedy what has long been called a disgrace to the country.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, the noble Lord had complained that an argument which had been used against the Vote would, if pushed to its legitimate conclusion, lead to an absurdity, but what the noble Lord's argument would lead to be (Lord John Manners) could not tell. The noble Lord said because there was an Act of Parliament which enabled sums in aid to be voted from the Consolidated Fund if certain amounts were otherwise raised, that therefore no principle was at stake in the present instance, and that it made no difference whether the whole sum was voted by the House or only a portion. Such an argument, if it were tenable, would relieve the friends of education from all responsibility, and they might leave the whole burden of providing for national education upon the shoulders of the Government. He felt great difficulty as to how he should vote upon this occasion. Having listened to the statements of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury, he entertained doubts whether that statement was satisfactory. The hon. Gentleman had said that a most unseemly practice had prevailed of making a chapel alternately in the drawing-room and the dining-room of the Embassy. He could not help thinking that, when there was no such Vote as that now proposed, this chapel was the chapel of the British Embassy. It was true that for the last three or four years the House had been called on to vote small sums for the purpose of increasing the accommodation; but some time before that no such Vote at all had been required, and he wished to know why
  1350
  that slate of things had ceased to exist, He thought no satisfactory reasons had been assigned for the change. It had been urged that the Committee ought not to hesitate in passing this Vote, inasmuch as a certain tax would be levied upon the wealthier class of English people who frequented the chapel; but he entertained a very strong objection to the system of pew rents, and to making people pay for the performance of Divine service. It had been said that the tax would only be levied upon the rich, and that sufficient space would be assigned to the poor; but who was to determine the sufficiency of that space? The noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) had stated that the great body of English residents in Paris were poor. The chapel, then, ought to be intended for their benefit, and why was it that only a limited portion of the edifice was to be appropriated to their use? He thought it unworthy of the dignity of this great nation that in the chapel of the Embassy in such a city as Paris the best portion of the seats should be let out, and that a payment should be required from every stranger who attended. The chapel should be free to Englishmen, and to all other persons who chose to go there. He wished to know why it was that the proposition, which had been made some two years ago, to raise a subscription in Paris and in this country, in order to provide an English chapel, had been allowed to drop. He believed the subscription list had been headed by Her Majesty, and that a large sum had been subscribed to carry out the project. Numbers of comparatively wealthy English people resided in Paris during some months of the year, and many others made that city their permanent residence, and he thought therefore it could not be a difficult matter to raise £3,000 or £4,000 by subscription towards the erection of a chapel.
  MR. WILSONsaid, the noble Lord was quite right in stating that some years back a subscription was entered into for the purpose of erecting a church in Paris. The late Bishop of London had made great efforts in the cause, and Her Majesty the Queen had given a subscription of 100 guineas to promote the scheme. Nevertheless, the whole thing came to nothing, for notwithstanding all the exertions which had been made, not more than £500 could be collected. The noble Lord (Lord John Manners) had also asked whether the chapel did not, at one time,

  1351
  belong to the Embassy. Well, he must venture in reply to state that the chapel had never belonged to the Embassy at all. It had been built by Bishop Luscombe, and afterwards sold to the late proprietor. He must also say that it was not intended strangers should pay at all for seats; there need be no collection at the doors, and ample provision would be made in the main body of the building for the accommodation of the poor, who it was said had been in the habit of crowding round the doors of the existing chapel for some time before service commenced. About two years ago it was proposed to build a chapel in the yard of the Embassy, but not only was the project renounced because of the expense, but likewise because it was likely to interfere with the building generally.
  MR. HORSMANobserved, that the Secretary to the Treasury had called upon them to remember that this was a chapel specially for the Embassy, and in that character the Vote was pressed upon the Committee. With reference to that statement he (Mr. Horsman) had said that the English residents and visitors in Paris who frequented the Embassy chapel were usually of the aristocratic classes, and to that assertion he adhered. He certainly thought that when a small sum was asked to provide for the religious instruction of our poor at home, while a larger sum was asked to make similar provision for our wealthier countrymen in Paris, hon. Members might fairly and justly protest against such, a Vote.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, his right hon. Friend was doubtless perfectly accurate in stating that when he had attended Divine service in the drawing-room of the embassy-house at Paris he met none but members of the aristocratic classes, and that was the very reason for proposing the purchase of the chapel in the Rue d'Aguesseau. When his right hon. Friend next visited Paris, and went to that chapel, he would meet the poor, who would be admitted gratis; but in the drawing-room of a private house it was impossible his right hon. Friend should meet the poor, because they could not get in.
  SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEobserved, that he must declare this to be the most extraordinary Vote which had ever been submitted to Parliament, He could not conceive why this chapel in the Rue d'Aguesseau was to be converted into a national
  1352
  church. He had attended that chapel for many years, and had always paid on entering, and he could discover no reason why he should complain for having to do so. What had he to do in London? It was true, perhaps, he might get a seat in St. Margaret's without payment; but, then, what had he to do with his family? He had always had to pay for the accommodation of public worship in London, and why should he not do so in Paris? He recollected, perfectly well, the Earl Granville, when ambassador, used to have a pew in the chapel for the benefit of the embassy, and he paid for it. Well, and why was not that arrangement continued? Why need they fit up a drawing-room or a dining-room at the Embassy, when a pew was available outside the house? Certainly, as far as his recollection went, the majority of the attendants at the chapel were dressed out in a manner almost exceeding anything which was to be seen in London. He must repeat, he thought this would be one of the most extraordinary Votes ever submitted to Parliament, and he felt he should be deserting his duty if he did not protest against it.
  MR. HANKEYsaid, as he understood the matter his proposal, instead of increasing would diminish the amount of accommodation. Hitherto, there had always been service at the Embassy, and the chapel about to be purchased had been open at least twenty years. After this purchase was made, only one of these places of worship would be open. How, then, could the amount of accommodation for the poorer English in Paris be increased by the change?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, the way in which the purchase would give greater accommodation was this. At present, nobody could get into the chapel, except by payment, and the pending arrangement was, that the greater portion of it should consist of free sittings, open gratuitously to those who wish to go there.
  MR. PEASEsaid, that the perseverance of the Ministry in pressing these expensive schemes upon the House caused him no small alarm. [A laugh.] Gentlemen might laugh, and he would be glad if he could join in the laugh too, but the matter was, really, too serious. He believed there would be, sooner or later, a day of reckoning in this country, for the lavish way in which they were spending the public money. Was it not for the imperturbability of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,

  1353
  he might well be alarmed at the disintegration of the Consolidated Fund that was going on. They had had before them a Vote of £10,000, for building churches in London, and that sum, well laid out, would erect, at least, five churches; but, having come to that Vote, they were immediately taken across the Channel, and asked to give a larger sum for the few British residents that might be in Paris, and for the use of the Embassy. He presumed the noblemen and gentlemen who resided in Paris, for their amusement and pleasure, would be found, if they were at home, liberal supporters of the churches which they might attend, and why should they not support their church abroad? There was not one of those noblemen or squires who did not draw large revenues from this country, and live in palaces at Paris; and why should they not contribute to the maintenance of the place of worship which they attended? He felt himself bound by all the evidence he had heard, to vote against this application of the public money.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he wished to hear, distinctly, from the Secretary to the Treasury, whether any contract had been entered into for the purchase of the chapel, and whether it was true that £2,000 had been paid.
  COLONEL HERBERTsaid, that there was no room in the present chapel for those who wished to go there, and he thought there certainly ought to be a place at Paris capable of holding all the English who wished to attend Divine worship. He thought a new chapel was required, and, if the Vote was merely for the appropriation of the old chapel, he should be inclined to oppose it.
  MR. KERsaid, he believed that people were unable to effect an entry into the chapel, not because they were required to pay an entrance fee of 1s., but, because there was not sufficient room. He had been under the impression that they were to have two chapels in Paris, so that British residents, and people passing through that city, would have no difficulty in being able to attend public worship; but it appeared this was not to be the case. It was his intention to have supported the Vote, but, if it was only for an appropriation of the old chapel which had so long existed in the Rue d'Aguesseau, he would be inclined to vote against it.
  MR. WISEsaid, the noble Lord at the head of the Government spoke of the chapels
  1354
  attached to our embassies having a national character. He would reply to that by an anecdote. We had at Vienna a chaplain with a salary of £300 a year. On a recent occasion, when it suited the convenience of the Ambassador to leave Vienna for a villa some six miles off, the chaplain gave notice that service would be conducted at that distance from Vienna, in order to accommodate the ambassador, and the consequence was, that the British inhabitants of that city had to pay 15 s. to go to church.
  MR. SPOONERhoped an answer would be given to the inquiry put by the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir Henry Willoughby), as to whether there had been any contract for the purchase of this chapel.
  MR. WILSONsaid, he could only repeat the statement he had made at the commencement of the discussion, that a sum of £2,000 had been paid, in January last, on account of the purchase of the chapel; and further, that in the same month Earl Cowley had written to the Earl of Clarendon, to say that the chapel had been purchased by some American gentlemen for a different purpose. However, Earl Cowley had succeeded in inducing them to resign their purchase, having been solicited to do so by the British inhabitants. The consequence was, Earl Cowley had entered into a contract to purchase the chapel, and a certain sum had been paid out of the Civil Contingency Fund, on account.
  MR. M'CANNremarked, that he thought that those Gentlemen who went to reside in Paris ought to pay for their own place of worship.
  Motion made, and Question put,—
  "That a sum, not exceeding £10,500, be granted to Her Majesty, for the purchase, in the year ending the 31st day of March, 1858, of a Chapel in the Rue D'Aguesseau at Paris, for the use of the British Residents and Visitors in that City."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 47; Noes 135: Majority 88.
  Motion negatived.
  (7.) £1,500. Boundaries of Counties, Baronies, and Parishes in Ireland, for 1857–58, agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,—
  "That a sum, not exceeding £10,000, be granted to Her Majesty, towards defraying the Expense of the Erection of the Industrial Museum at Edinburgh, in the year ending the 31st day of March, 1858."
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYobserved, that he thought the Committee ought not, without some good reason, incur,

  1355
  by agreeing to this Vote, an expense of £40,000 (the estimated cost of the building).
  MR. WILSONsaid, that, four years ago, when the right hon. Gentleman, the Member fof Oxford (Mr. Cardwell), had been at the head of the Board of Trade, a sum of £40,000 had been voted by the House for the purchase of a piece of land in Edinburgh, on which a museum was to be built; and the present proposed Vote of £10,000 was brought forward for the purpose of commencing the building. The museum would be in connection with the Department of Science and Art, and a similar edifice was to be constructed in Dublin.
  MR. LOCKE KINGasked whether the building had been commenced, or whether any contract had been made for its construction?
  MR. WILSONsaid, that the land had been purchased in conformity with the decision of the House. He was not aware that any contract had been entered into in the case, but plans had been made, and estimates had been furnished.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, that, as he had been alluded to in reference to this matter, he wished to state what he understood to be the exact position of the case. In consequence of what had been sanctioned, three or four years ago, by the House, the land was purchased for the purpose of building on it an industrial museum, and an arrangement was made with the Town Council of Edinburgh, by which a considerable sacrifice was made by them, on the understanding that, at a future period, the museum would be erected; but no agreement was made as to the precise time when the museum would be built. It appeared to him that the only point the Committee had then to consider was, whether the present moment would be a favourable one for undertaking such a work.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he wished that some information, founded on positive documents, could be furnished to them in reference to that subject. He had no recollection that so large a sum as £40,000 had been proposed for building an industrial museum at Edinburgh. He could not help thinking that his nerves would have been a good deal shaken by such a proposal.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he thought the Vote might be postponed to a more favourable opportunity. At present, the Government had no great command of funds, for, to-morrow, the Chancellor of
  1356
  the Exchequer was going to move an increase in the tea and sugar duties.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, that this was a very considerable Vote, and, as it was a first instalment, and they had never voted anything yet in pursuance of the general project, he suggested that the Government might, with perfect propriety, not press it upon the Committee. No doubt, the object would be an extremely laudable one in sunshiny weather, but he thought, under existing circumstances, that the Government would act wisely to withdraw the Vote for the present.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the site of the museum in Edinburgh had been acquired by the Government, and paid for; and every year that the space remained unbuilt upon it was, pro tanto, a loss to the country. However, he recognized the feeling which pervaded the Committee to avoid any expenditure which was not absolutely necessary, and, as this was an item, probably, which came within that category, he should not oppose it.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he hoped that, whenever an opportunity should arise, the Government would state what had been actually done for the construction of a similar museum in Dublin.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid he regretted the decision at which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had arrived. This was one of the means for instructing the people; and although they had voted hundreds of thousands for the British Museum, and a large sum for a kindred institution in Dublin, they refused to carry out the same laudable object in Edinburgh.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, that the sum actually voted in the Estimates of 1854 was £8.500, being £7,000 for the purchase of the proposed site, and £1,500 for other incidental purposes.
  Motion by leave withdrawn.
  (8.) £8,970, Repository for Public Records; agreed to.
  (9.) £24,000, Chelsea Bridge.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he was anxious to direct attention to this case, as showing the utter worthlessness of estimates; instead of being guides to Parliament in voting money, they were positively traps and delusions. In the case of this bridge there had been no less than six estimates already, and he did not believe that that would be the last. The first estimate was £60,000, the second was £70,500, the third was £75,000, the

  1357
  fourth £88,000, the fifth £91,000, and the sixth was £94,266. It was too clear that the last estimate was not complete as it did not include the formidable items of compensations, purchases, legal charges, and so on. It was but justice to the right hon. Gentleman opposite to state that he gathered these facts from the correspondence which he had laid on the table, but he asked what was the good of these estimates unless they compelled those who made them to adhere to them? He contended that this was a monstrous case, and that nothing could be more ridiculous than the position in which they stood will regard to it. He wished to know what sum had been actually expended on the bridge at present, how much more would be required to complete it, and to what extent the public were likely to be reimbursed by the tolls?
  SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, he quite agreed with the hon. Gentleman in reference to the fallacy observable in these estimates. He thought it his duty to inquire into the whole of that case, and he had laid before the House, in as clear a manner as possible, all the correspondence which had passed upon the subject. The number of estimates for that work had been correctly stated by the hon. Gentleman, but in justice to himself he (Sir B. Hall) had to observe that they had been furnished before he had been appointed to his present office. He was anxious to reduce the expenditure in all such matters within definite limits, so that the House might be aware from the commencement what was the cost they should have to defray. The sum already paid for work done with regard to the Chelsea Bridge was £59,762; and there remained to be paid £33,003 under one head, and £1,500 under another head; so that the total expenditure would be £94,265. Of that sum £70,500 had been already voted by the House; and he had every reason to believe that the Vote of £24,000 then under the consideration of the Committee would suffice for the completion of the work.
  MR. BENTINCK,said, he did not think that this was a time for taxing the community at large for the purpose of mere local improvements. He thought that the Committee should not assent to this Vote unless they had a distinct assurance that the tolls of this bridge would be sufficient to reimburse the country for the outlay proposed to be made. There was another
  1358
  point to be considered. They had recently a proposal submitted to the House for doing away with the tolls generally in the Metropolis. If they were to vote this money he hoped it would be upon the distinct pledge from the Government that at no time, or under no circumstances, should an attempt be made to do away with these tolls. He hoped that they would receive this assurance.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSremarked, that he thought that the difference between estimates and the actual cost, which was not unusual in these cases, was susceptible of explanation without casting any blame on the professional gentlemen who had originally prepared the estimates. An estimate was called for and it was calculated at the current price of labour and materials. Something occurred which prevented the work being immediately carried out, and in the interval the prices of labour and materials increased; the landowners, too, finding that the neighbourhood was likely to be benefited, raised the price of their land, and thus it became impossible to complete the work for the original sum named.
  SIR DENHAM NORREYSobserved, that he differed from the noble Lord as to the care alleged to be bestowed on those estimates. He thought, on the contrary, that the way in which those estimates were framed betrayed a great ignorance on the subject.
  SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEsaid, the question of tolls raised was an important matter to be considered as regarded the metropolitan bridges. The proposed bridge was being built between two toll-bridges, which were the result of private enterprise. The Government had some short time ago entertained the proposition that this bridge should be a toll-free bridge. If that were to be the case he could not view their conduct in any other light than as an infringement on the understanding that, those works of private enterprise should not be interfered with. This bridge, if it were to be toll free, would have the effect of ruining the other bridges built by private enterprise. If the Government wanted to carry out the principle of toll-free bridges they should first pay off the debts due by the toll-paying bridges, and then open them all to the public.
  MR. BRADYsaid, that this was a question in which the people of the Metropolis took a great interest. He had given the subject for some years much consideration,

  1359
  and had reason to know that the proposed toll on Chelsea Bridge had created great dissatisfaction. If the Committee were to know how much the tolls on bridges depreciated the neighbouring property and affected the health and welfare of the community at large, he was sure that they would not sanction any Government bringing forward a proposition to build a bridge, and then to tax the people that passed thereon. A greater mistake he believed was never made. At that moment great dissatisfaction was felt at the conduct, of the First Lord of the Treasury, who, having promised that he would do his best to carry out a measure to relieve the passengers at the south end of the Metropolis from paying tolls, had subsequently given the weight of his authority in favour of an opposite principle. He (Mr. Brady) would oppose this grant, because no promise had been given that the bridge would ultimately become a free bridge.
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTONremarked, that the Committee should be in possession of the evidence of the Committee that had been recently sitting upon this question before they decided upon this Vote. The right hon. Baronet appeared to favour the proposition of building a bridge, and of depriving the public of any chance of the repayment of the money. The Government had agreed to the appointment of a Committee to discuss this matter. The evidence brought before it against the proposition of a toll-free bridge was so strong that the Government withdrew their Bill. Before the Government asked for another grant for this bridge, he thought that the Committee should have the details of the evidence before them. They had received no pledge from the Government that they intended to carry out the recommendations contained in the Report of the Committee, the substance of which was that faith should be kept with the public on this question. He hoped that before they pressed this Vote the Government would state whether they meant to abide by the original terms.
  SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, what took place in the Committee referred to by the noble Lord was this:—A Bill had been introduced by the Government not to abolish tolls, but to abolish that portion of the tolls that were levied on foot passengers crossing the bridge. That Bill was referred to a Select Committee, who had heard evidence on the subject. The first question raised before the Committee
  1360
  was this, whether, if the passengers' toll were taken off, the value of property would not be so increased as to make it advisable to abolish the tolls altogether? The Committee did not think that they had any proof of such a result, and they, therefore, did not think it advisable to recommend that the toll should be taken off. Of course under such circumstances it could not be the intention of the Government to deviate from the original understanding, which was this—that tolls should be taken on the bridge when it was finished. No income could accrue from the bridge for the purpose of defraying its primary cost until it was complete and opened for traffic, and it was for the purpose of completing it that this Vote of £24,000 was asked.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, any doubt as to the intentions of the Governors had arisen solely from their own conduct; as they had been guilty of the inconsistency of asking for so much money for the building of this bridge, and at the same time entertaining an application to get rid of those tolls. He wished to know what new light had been shed upon the Government to induce them to change their opinion upon the subject? Would the Government stick to the principle of the toll?
  SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, the Committee had decided that no alteration whatever ought to take place in the Act. It was not, therefore, his intention to propose any measure for the abolition of the tolls after that decision.
  MR. INGRAMexpressed a wish to make one or two remarks upon the important question involved in the proposed Vote. The hon. Baronet opposite (Sir H. Willoughby) wished the Government to pledge themselves that those bridge tolls should be kept up. He (Mr. Ingram) hoped that Her Majesty's Ministers had too much regard for the interests of the people, as well as those of property generally, to give any such assurance. They should recollect that there was a large surplus amount of land adjoining the new Battersea Park which was to be disposed of. If the Government were to establish a toll upon this bridge they might rest assured that they would be unable to sell the land in question to any advantage. If, on the other hand, they made this bridge toll-free, he was satisfied that that property would be sold at a price amply sufficient to meet the cost of the bridge. What miserable economy was it for the Government to

  1361
  make a park and build a bridge, apparently for the convenience of the poorer; classes on the northern side of the river, and then to place a toll upon the bridge, which would have the effect of depriving the public of many of its advantages, and of depreciating the property in its neighbourhood! He hoped that the Committee would not countenance such short-sighted economy as this, or allow the Government to adopt so mischievous a course.
  MR. TITEsaid, he had been a member of the Select Committee. The excess in the estimate was partly owing to the failure of two contractors. As to the tolls, from the evidence taken by the Committee it appeared that £6,000 a year would be produced by the tolls, which would give a fair interest upon the original outlay. It was then suggested that if the foot-toll were removed an income of £3,000 a year would still accrue, and that this, together with the increased value of the surplus land at Battersea Park, would be sufficient to recoup the country. The proof was not very distinct as to the value of the land, or the amount of carriage toll—and the majority of the Committee agreed that it had not been shown that the country would be repaid the money spent for the bridge unless there was a toll. He thought they would, but he was in a minority. He concurred in what his hon. Friend the Member for Boston (Mr. Ingram) had said in respect to the injury that would be done to property and inconvenience to the public generally, by making this a toll bridge, He regretted that the population of 60,000 residing in the parish of Chelsea, who would be greatly benefited by being enabled to cross over into the Park with their children, could not now do so except on payment of a foot-toll. He understood, however, that the matter was settled, and that the bridge must be opened as a toll-paying bridge. Suggestions had, however, been made that the bridge might be thrown open by means of the Metropolitan Board or of a railway company whose terminus it was expected would be brought there. As to the Vote now before the Committee, the bridge must be finished, and there was therefore no alternative but to grant the money asked for.
  MR. CLIFFORDsaid, he was in a minority on the question of toll in the Committee, but he agreed with the majority that localities ought to pay for local improvements. What he wanted, however,
  1362
  to impress on the Committee was that some of the Select Committee were actuated in their decision by the arguments of counsel, who appeared for the vested interests of Battersea and Vauxhall bridges; for these arguments were most puerile.
  MR. P. O' BRIEN, as a member of the Committee, said, that the Committee had come to the determination of supporting the views of the right hon. Baronet opposite from no regard to the interests of Battersea Bridge or Vauxhall Bridge. They considered that when a question of this character was presented to them, they were bound to look to the circumstance of the original Vote taken for this bridge, and to see whether faith was kept with the public and the country which paid for it; and they thought that they could not take away the tolls which were to repay the public outlay. When the question of Battersea Park was brought before the House, they were told that a large sum of money would be created by means of improvements on the Surrey side, and on that assurance the money for that Park was voted. He thought that local improvements out to be carried out by localities themselves.
  SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEsaid, he must disclaim being an advocate of tolls on the metropolitan bridges, as he thought there could be no more objectionable mode of raising money.
  MR. PLATTsaid, that the public money was contributed from all parts of the country, and in the case of Battersea Park and the bridge it was spent on local objects. If they were to spend the public money in that manner, it should be done on some equitable principle. Now, there were many towns in the north where parks were required, and he should have no objection to see grants of public money for parks all over the country.
  In reply to MR. LYGON,
  SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, the bridge would be open before the end of the year.
  Vote agreed to.
  MR. W. WILLIAMS MR. W. WILLIAMS moved that the Chairman do report progress.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERhoped the hon. Gentleman and the Committee would allow the two remaining Votes to be taken, although he admitted the hour was somewhat late. There were still the Militia Estimates and the Vote for the Ordnance Survey to be taken besides, which he proposed to take in Committee

  1363
  of Supply at six o'clock to-morrow. The principal Vote that remained was that for the Public Offices, and he could state that he proposed not to ask the Committee to agree to the entire amount of the Vote. He had stated in the beginning of the Session that he proposed to ask £80,000 to complete the purchase of land for public offices, for which the House was engaged under a recent statute. Since then a Bill had been introduced to enable the Government to purchase additional land. He would, however, confine the Vote to £80,000, and that would render it unnecessary to proceed with that Bill. All he asked was that the Committee would consider the 47th Vote as it stood.
  MR. DISRAELI: It would be convenient to the Committee to know what business will be taken at six o'clock to-morrow. According to previous arrangements the Divorce Bill was to be taken to-morrow.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: To-morrow at six o'clock we propose to take Supply; and, if there is time we will go on with the Divorce Bill afterwards.
  MR. DISRAELI: With reference to the Vote for the Militia, I beg to give notice that I shall take that opportunity of making an inquiry of the noble Lord at the head of the Government respecting the late transactions which have occurred at Constantinople on the subject of the Danubian Principalities.
  MR. PACKE: The House has now been sitting nine hours, and as the two next Votes will cause much discussion, I hope the Government will agree to the Motion for reporting progress.
  MR. DRUMMOND: There was a distinct understanding repeated over and over again by the hon. and learned Attorney General that at six o'clock to-morrow we should proceed with the Divorce Bill.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I should like to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke just now in ignorance of the arrangement which has been made?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Oh, no !
  MR. GLADSTONE: It is most inconvenient that arrangements of this kind should be made and then broken up. There is a large number of hon. Members waiting in town on account of the Divorce Bill.
  LORD JOHN MANNERS: When will the Divorce Bill be taken?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: On Thursday.
  MR. BENTINCK: There ought to be some explanation of the extraordinary conduct of the Government. It was distinctly understood that the Divorce Bill would come on at six o'clock to-morrow, and I appeal to the House as to whether it is customary to make such alterations in the arrangements of the business of the House after an understanding has been come to with regard to them?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is quite usual at the end of the Session. I had hoped to have finished Supply to-night, but it has occupied much longer time than was expected.
  MR. COX: Do the Government mean to proceed with the Divorce Bill at all after this announcement?
  THE CHAIRMAN: I must remind hon. Gentlemen that it is quite irregular to discuss the business of the House on this Motion. The question is, that I report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
  MR. DRUMMOND: Then we will object to your reporting progress until we have an explanation from the Attorney General. This is a most gross breach of faith.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONasked the noble Lord to give him Friday morning
  next, in redemption of a promise to afford him an opportunity of bringing before the House a Motion of which he had given notice. He had no reason to think it would occupy much time.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he was afraid to promise. If progress were made in the business before the House, perhaps he might give the hon. Baronet Friday morning.
  MR. DRUMMONDasked, when the noble Lord meant to bring on the Divorce Bill?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, at twelve o'clock, and again at six o'clock on Thursday.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSobserved, he hoped that it was not the determination of the Government to go on with that Bill the whole day.
  SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEasked whether it was at twelve o'clock, or at six?
  Several hon. MEMBERS answered, "both at twelve and six."
  Motion agreed to. House resumed.
  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
  Committee to sit again To-morrow.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONS BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  MR. LOCKE KING MR. LOCKE KING moved that it be read a third time that day three months because it did away with the Act of 1830, and gave back the management of estates to archbishops and bishops, and made their incomes fluctuating instead of fixed.
  MR. CAIRDseconded the Amendment. As he understood the Bill, it would reverse the principle laid down by the Secretary for the Home Department in 1850, that the bishops should have fixed instead of fluctuating incomes. Any man practically acquainted with landed property knew that that species of property was one of the most fluctuating in value, and therefore the framers of this Bill, in proposing that, with the view of giving fixed incomes to the bishops, certain land should be assigned to them, could not be aware of the difficulty that they were creating with regard to those incomes. Who was to manage this church property, part of which was to be assigned to the bishops, the other part being retained in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners? It was manifest that as many of the estates attached to the sees would be larger than were required for the purpose, outlying portions would be left which must be managed at a great expense by a separate agency. Then, prelates of advanced age were not likely to manage property to the best advantage, especially seeing they would have a natural disposition not to develope its value in such a way as might lead to the extent of the landed property of the Church being diminished in the hands of their successors. Then it was proposed that the episcopal estates were still to remain under the supervision of the Ecclesiastical Commission. That being so, there would be a double system of land agency established at a double expense; and he thought, therefore, that it would be much better to leave the entire management of the estates in the hands of the Commissioners. He thought, moreover, that the Bill would lead to a deterioration of the property to be assigned to the bishops. When he saw how much good had been achieved under the present system he should regret a reversion to the old system. He found that, besides paying fixed incomes to the bishops, the Ecclesiastical
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  Commission had augmented 876 benefices, endowed 249 new district churches, affording an annual income to those churches of £81,000, and given £18,000 a year to Queen Anne's Bounty for the building of parsonage houses; so that a surplus of nearly £100,000 a year had been gained over and above the fixed incomes of the bishops, for the purpose of extending the spiritual provision over a great extent of this country to a population of about 3,250,000.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words, "upon this day three months."
  SIR GEORGE GREYobserved, that he thought the mover and seconder of the Amendment misunderstood the object of the Bill. It would not reverse the policy by which the bishops' incomes had been fixed. Its object was to give greater effect to the intention of Parliament that those incomes should be fixed. The hon. Gentleman who spoke last seemed to assume that the whole of the bishops' incomes were in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, but that was not the case. They were at present in the hands of the bishops who paid over the surplus to the Commissioners after deducting a certain income; but the Bill would transfer to the Commissioners all those portions of land in the hands of the archbishops and bishops, except such as were required to produce the fixed incomes sanctioned by Parliament. There could be no doubt that great variations might take place in the value of the landed property in the hands of the bishops, and that was the reason of the insertion of the clause as to inspection of the land by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. He might remind the House that the Bill was founded upon the Report of a Committee of last Session, of which his noble Friend the Member for the City of London was chairman, and it was referred to a Select Committee after the Second Reading, in order that it might be ascertained how far it would effectuate the recommendations of the Committee of last Session. Under these circumstances he hoped the House would consent to the Third Reading.
  MR. BRISCOEsaid, he would urge the postponement of the Bill till next Session, on the ground that hon. Members had not had sufficient time to consider it.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, the Bill had been before Parliament a long time and

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  had been referred to a Select Committee, and therefore hon. Gentlemen had had ample opportunities of becoming acquainted with the provisions of it.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he regretted that the Bill had not received more attention, and also that he had on a previous occasion missed an opportunity of moving an Amendment, which he was afraid it was now too late to press.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, he thought the debate ought to be adjourned.
  Question, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read 3°, and passed.

DULWICH COLLEGE BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  MR. KNIGHTsaid, he rose to complain of the treatment which the Select Committee that had been appointed to inquire into this Bill had received. Upon one very important question the Committee had arrived at a decision by a majority of eight to three, that question being to alter the agreement with the Charity Commissioners. The Bill stood on the paper for Thursday last, and as he wished to make some alteration in Committee he had spoken on the subject to the right hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill. That right hon. Gentleman had told him that he did not think that it would come on that night, and he had induced him to put his intended alteration upon the paper. There was, he confessed, no agreement that the Bill should not come on that night, but the right hon. Gentleman had told him that he did not think that it would. He had, therefore, been much surprised to find out afterwards that the Bill had come on, and, by means of a private whip conducted by the fellows of the college, the decision at which the Select Committee had arrived had been overruled. Now, it was the general custom of that House to support their Select Committees, and certainly Select Committees would be useless if their decisions were to be bouleversé in the way in which the decisions of this Select Committee had been. In justice, therefore, to the Members of that Committee, and in order that they might have an opportunity of discussing the clauses, he begged to
  1368
  move that the order for the third reading of the Bill be discharged with a view to the re-committal of the Bill.
  MR. COXseconded the Motion. He had been in the House on Tuesday morning when the Bill was called on, but he never expected that it would be proceeded with. Some whispering, however, took place at the table, and he had been much surprised to find afterwards that the result of that whispering had been to raise the salaries which had been proposed by the Select Committee very considerably. Thus, the salary of £760 to the master had been increased to £1,015; £570 a year to the warden, to £855; £236 for the two senior fellows, to £500; £196 to the third and fourth fellows, to £466; and as he objected most strongly to the appropriation of large sums of money in such a manner, he certainly should support the Motion.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out from the words "That the" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "said Order be discharged," instead thereof.
  MR. BAINESsaid, he wished to state in a few words what had really taken place with regard to this subject. The hon. Member for Worcestershire (Mr. Knight) was mistaken in supposing that he had told him that the Bill would not come on on Thursday evening; what he had stated was, that it would not come on till late, and he had advised him to put his alteration upon the paper with the view of bringing it on at a subsequent stage of the Bill. Now, what were the facts of the case? Certain gentlemen derived certain emoluments from the College at Dulwich to which they were as much entitled as any gentleman was to his own estates. The present Bill abolished the offices held by those gentlemen, and it was clear that the only fair compensation which could be made to them was to pay them the full amount of the salaries which they had been receiving. That was the view taken by the Charity Commissioners, by the House of Lords, and by that House on Friday morning last, when the Bill passed through Committee. The hon. and learned Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins) moved that these allowances be restored on the ground that an express compact had been entered into between the officers of the College and the Charity Commissioners in virtue of which the former had consented to waive their opposition to the Bill. It also appeared that by this bargain the master, warden,

  1369
  and fellows only received the exact value of their interest taken at the present moment without a farthing of profit. It appeared to be the opinion of one or two hon. Members who spoke that such an arrangement was perfectly fair, and he was also convinced that no injustice would be done in adopting the terms now restored to the Bill. The compact with the Charity Commissioners would not be binding on Parliament, but it was clear that the Bill would never have been agreed to by the officers of the college, unless they were to receive the value of their interest in their offices. He trusted he had now vindicated his own conduct. He said he would bring the Bill forward if possible on the night in question, and he trusted after this explanation that the House would consent to the Motion he now made, that the Bill be read a third time.
  MR. MALINSsaid, he did not think his hon. Friend (Mr. Knight) had any just ground of complaint against the course which had been taken the other night by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Baines), or that that right hon. Gentleman had any intention of smuggling the Bill through the House. The master, warden, and fellows of the college made a compact with the Charity Commissioners. Those who opposed them went before a Committee of the House of Lords, and the Committee decided against them. In 1857 the Bill was again brought into the House of Lords, and the House of Lords had recognised the claim of these officers to the compensation now given to them by the Bill, and he had satisfied the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baines) that either the bargain must be fulfilled or the Bill withdrawn.
  MR. LYGONsaid, he could very well understand why the master, warden and fellows had received this Bill so willingly, because it continued their allowances at a maximum rate, it gave them large compensations of £300 and upwards, in lieu of residence, &c., at college, and it released them from residence, celibacy, and the inability to take other preferment. The officers of the college had been bribed by these enormous pensions, but the Bill had not yet received the full consideration to which it was entitled.
  MR. HEADLAMsaid, the scheme had been fully considered in Committee when he had voted for the salaries which now stood in the Bill. He believed that it would be a great injustice to pass this
  1370
  measure unless the House ratified the compact with the Charity Commissioners. He thought also that scheme, if carried out, would be most beneficial to all parties.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, he had, on Thursday night, protested against the Bill being proceeded with at so late an hour as between one and two o'clock. The very unusual course had then been taken of reversing a decision of the Select Committee on the subject of compensation, without any notice of that change having appeared on the papers. He gave no opinion on the question of the amount of compensation, but he thought the example set in reversing a decision of a Select Committee without notice was a very bad one; and he trusted that in future the Chairman of Committees would object to allow such a course to be taken. His opinion rather was that the change made in the Bill was a good one; but that did not justify the course taken on Thursday.
  MR. GREERsaid, he thought the best course which the House could adopt would be to assent to the recommitment of the Bill, inasmuch as the House had been in some measure taken by surprise, and the merits of the subject with which it dealt had not been fully discussed.
  MR. JOHN LOCKEsaid, if the Bill were recommitted the probability was that the Bill would not pass this Session. This matter had been in agitation for fifteen years, but it had been thrown over from time to time, and if the Bill were recommitted it would be thrown over again; such a result would be much to be regretted as he thought that the arrangement which the Bill proposed to carry into effect must be regarded as one of an advantageous character.
  MR. W. WILLIAMS, while disapproving of the course that had been taken on Thursday, would support the Bill, feeling that it was most important it should pass this Session.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 63; Noes 36: Majority 27.
  Question again proposed.
  MR. KNIGHTsaid, he must renew his protest against the Bill as it stood, as calculated to perpetrate one of the grossest acts of plunder in the case of a charity for the poor which had for many years been committed. The master, warden, and fellows had been for years fattening on what they had plundered from the poor, and they were now

  1371
  about to reward them for so doing. To give the House an idea of the way in which the funds of the charity were perverted and dissipated by the master, warden, and fellows, he begged to call attention to a statement given in evidence before the Select Committee on the part of the Rev. Charles Howes, First Fellow of the College, of the income and advantages he derived from his position there, from which it appeared, on the showing of that gentleman himself, that he had among other luxuries, "two good sitting rooms, two good bed rooms, rent free, and kept in good order and repair by the college, and well situated in every particular; full board, breakfast, lunch, dinner, &c., and every refreshment called for, including wine." He had also the "attendance of a butler, footman, and housemaid, services of cook and under cook, plate, and dinner linen, &c., all kept in good order and supplied freely when wanted." Coals and candles he had likewise to any extent wanted, and his rates und taxes were paid by the College. Why, John Sadlier had the decency to go and hang himself rather than boast of the enormous sums of money he had been receiving from the unfortunate shareholders of the Tipperary Bank. He (Mr. Knight) knew it was perfectly useless further to oppose this gross iniquity on the part of the master, warden, and fellows. He had opposed it to the best, of his ability, and he now gave way with a feeling of shame that so scandalous a system should have been for a moment tolerated by an English House of Commons.
  MR. COXsaid, he for one would not give way if the hon. Gentleman who had last spoken chose to do so, and he would therefore move the adjournment of the debate.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the debate be now adjourned."
  The House divided:—Ayes 21; Noes 57: Majority 36.
  Question again proposed.
  MR. LYGONsaid, he was so strongly opposed to the Bill that he felt himself justified in moving the adjournment of the House.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."
  SIR G. GREYsaid, he could not see what the object of an adjournment could be. No Amendment could now be made in the Bill, and the House was quite competent to say whether it should pass.
  MR. LYGONsaid, he should persevere with his Motion.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that was a very inconvenient mode of proceeding; but if the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lygon) liked it, the Members of the Government would stay in their places as long as the hon. Gentleman pleased. The House was competent to say "aye" or "no" to the Motion for the third reading of the Bill, and, until that was done, there the Members of the Government were and there they would stay.
  MR. MALINSsaid, these attempts to oppose the further progress of the Bill by dividing the House on Motions for adjournment, first of the debate and then of the House itself, were unconstitutional and detrimental to the dignity of Parliament for a small minority to attempt to override the sense of the House in that manner.
  MR. COXsaid, in making the Motion for the adjournment of the debate he had but followed the example which the hon. and learned Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins) himself had set him on another occasion, when it suited his purpose to have recourse to it a few nights ago.
  MR. LYGONsaid, he would withdraw his Motion in deference to the wish of a majority of the House. The hon. and learned Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins) had hinted that such a Motion was unconstitutional; be that as it might, he (Mr. Lygon) thought nothing could be more unconstitutional than the way in which this Bill had been smuggled through the House.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to:— Bill read 3° and passed, with Amendments.

  BANKING BILL.
  Motion, that the Lords' Amendments be agreed to, read.
  MR. NICOLLsaid, he wished, after the noble Lord's threat, to know whether all the business of the House was to be passed through in dumb show. To test that he should move that the House adjourn.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, it was: quite impossible that the Session could ever be terminated if they were not allowed to despatch the necessary business.
  Motion negatived.
  Lords' Amendments agreed to.
  House adjourned at a quarter after Two o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—3a County Court Judges (Falconer and Yates's) Salaries; Charitable Trusts Acts Continuance; Superannuation Act Amendment; Fraudulent Trustees, &c.; Trustees Relief.
COMMISSION.—The following Bills received the Royal Assent: Militia Ballots Suspension; Public Health Act (Aldershot); Registration of Long Leases (Scotland); Burial of the Dead within the City and Liberties of London; Bill Chamber (Scotland); Commons Inclosure; Turnpike Acts Continuance; Land and Assessed Taxes, &c. (Scotland) Acts Amendment; Christ Church (West Hartlepool); Representative Peers (Ireland); Oxford University; Chatham Lands, &c.; Inclosure Acts Amendment; Portland Harbour; Public Works (Ireland); Bankruptcy and Real Securities (Scotland); Canada and New Brunswick Boundaries.

THE STAMPING OF LETTERS.

  QUESTION.
  LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he wished to call the attention of his noble Friend the Postmaster General to the illegibility of the Post Office stamps on letters. He had before directed his noble Friend's attention to the subject, and he knew that he had been exerting himself to the utmost, with a view to the marks being rendered sufficiently legible. This was sometimes very important for the administration of justice. He (Lord Campbell) had seen the greatest inconvenience resulting from the circumstance that, in the cases to which he referred, the marks were mere blotches, and wholly illegible; and, in a recent trial, at Edinburgh, the necessity for improvement was manifest, it being very important in that case, to ascertain when a particular letter passed through the Post Office. The French letters were stamped in a much

  1285
  better manner than our own, and he did not see why there should be such a difference. He would, therefore, ask his noble Friend what hope there was of any improvement?
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that, in consequence of his attention being directed to this subject, by his noble and learned Friend, he had made inquiries respecting the stamping of letters, and he had ascertained that the real difficulty arose from the great amount of stamping done by manual labour. If his noble and learned Friend were to visit the Post Office at six o'clock, he would witness the marvellous rapidity and accuracy with which the process of stamping was effected on hundreds of thousands of letters. It was very desirable to keep the box open to the latest possible moment, and the pursuit of this object left scarcely sufficient margin for stamping. An infinite number of suggestions, with respect to the stamping of letters, had been sent to the Post Office within the last few months, very much in consequence of the observations made by his noble and learned Friend. There was no doubt that manual labour could never effect the purpose so perfectly as a machine; and he was happy to state, that a machine had been invented by a gentleman connected with the Post Office, which promised to produce a great amendment. The superiority of the foreign stamps might be attributed to the comparatively small correspondence with which foreign post offices had to deal, and, still more, to the use of letter-paper not so highly glazed as that generally used in this country.

  REPRESENTATIVE PEERS (IRELAND).
  LORD MONTEAGLEcalled the attention of their Lordships to the claim of the Earl of Carysfort to be admitted to vote at the election of Representative Peers for Ireland, praying that the Resolution of their Lordships, of the 3rd July last, might be deemed to apply to his claim, and that such claim might be referred to the Lord Chancellor, to consider and report thereon. He considered that where a Peer had established his claim of sitting and voting in their Lordships' House, the same evidence should be held sufficient and the same procedure be adopted in the case of proof of a right of voting for a Representative Peer. The facts to be established were identical. The noble Lord concluded by moving,
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  "That the Petition of the Earl of Carysfort (presented on Thursday last) be referred to the Lord Chancellor, to consider and report thereon, as if it had come under the Standing Order of the 3rd July last."
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, they could not act upon that suggestion without contravening a Resolution which they had adopted in a full House, and after careful consideration. He did not say it was absolutely undesirable that the Resolution should be altered, but it appeared to him that, as the Resolution had been adopted when there was a full attendance of Irish Peers, such an alteration ought not to be made at a time when there was not a single Irish Peer in London.
  LORD CAMPBELLagreed with the noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) that the proper course would be, to alter, in due form, the words of the Standing Order.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORalso agreed with the noble Lord, that the better course would be to alter the Resolution formerly agreed to. He thought there could be no necessity for postponing the matter to another Session of Parliament.
  LORD REDESDALEagain expressed his opinion, that, as no Irish Peer was present, it would be better to postpone the question till next Session.
  LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that, adopting the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord, he should now give notice that he would, to-morrow, move an alteration of the Standing Order, so as to meet the case.
  Standing Order of the 3rd of July last, to be considered, in order to its being amended.
  House adjourned, at a quarter to Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, halt-past Two o'clock.