Sitting of 5 March 1855

MINUTES.
NEW WRIT. — For Barnstaple, v. John Laurie, Esq., void Election.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2° Tea Duties Decline Suspension; Purchasers' Protection against Judgments; Secretaries and Under Secretaries of State (House of Commons).

EDUCATION IN THE ARMY—QUESTION.
MR. EWARTsaid, he wished to ask the hon. Under Secretary of State for War whether there could be laid before the House any statement of the measures now adopted for further promoting the education and professional competency of officers in the army; also of any measures adopted for giving useful and practical in-
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struction to non-commissioned officers and privates?
MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, that he had no objection to produce a statement showing the system of regimental schools, and the nature of the examination which officers had to undergo before obtaining their first commissions. The larger measure, however, which had been contemplated last year, had been left in abeyance for some time, but was at present being taken up by Her Majesty's Government.

MEDICAL OFFICERS IN THE CRIMEA— QUESTION.
MR. LAYARDsaid, he wished to ask the hon. Under Secretary of State for War whether any brigade and divisional orders had been issued in the army before Sebastopol, to the effect "that no questions must be answered by medical men attached to the forces without permission from head-quarters;" whereby medical men attached to the army were precluded from giving complete evidence to the Commission sent out to the East to inquire into the state of the medical department? Also, whether it was true that Dr. Lawson had been appointed to the superintendence of, or to any other high employment in, the hospitals of Scutari, Smyrna, or Rhodes; and, if so, by whose authority such appointment was made, and whether it had been sanctioned by the authorities at home?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that he would answer the first question of his hon. Friend, and his hon. Friend the Under Secretary for War would reply to the second. Her Majesty's Government had received no official information of any such divisional or brigade orders as those to which his hon. Friend had alluded; but they had been informed by private correspondence that some such orders had been issued. He could only assure his hon. Friend that their meaning must have been that the medical officers were not to place themselves in communication with the Commission without authority so to do. He could not possibly conceive that the orders could have gone to the extent of, in any way, interfering with the functions of the Commission in obtaining every information necessary for the due performance of their duties. But his noble Friend at the head of the War Department had lately written out to inquire how the matter stood. At the present moment all that the Government knew about it was contained in a private letter, which, of course, could not be

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relied upon as being quite accurate or very minute in its details.
MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, that in reply to the second question of the hon. Member for Aylesbury, he had to state that Lord Raglan, about the middle of January, had directed Dr. Lawson to proceed to the hospital at Scutari, where he had been placed in a subordinate capacity under the orders of Dr. Cumming, who was at the head of that hospital. There was no intention on the part of Government to place Dr. Lawson in charge of any hospital.
MR. LAYARD: Am I to understand Dr. Lawson was merely sent from the Crimea to the hospital, but not to take charge of it?
MR. FREDERICK PEEL: The general orders were, that he should proceed to Scutari and report himself to the officer at the head of the hospital, but not to take charge in any way.
MR. LAYARD: Was he not sent away from the Crimea after an investigation on a charge of misconduct? That is what I meant by the question.
MR. FREDERICK PEEL: He was sent from the Crimea after he was censured in a general order by Lord Raglan.

THE APPOINTMENT OF DR. MEYER— QUESTION.
MR. PERCYsaid, he would take that opportunity of calling the attention of his right hon. Friend the Member for South Wiltshire (Mr. S. Herbert) to a statement which had appeared in one of the public journals, that Dr. Meyer, who had been appointed to the direction of one of our hospitals in the East, was a German gentleman who was not possessed of any diploma, and whose only qualifications for the situation to which he had been appointed were, that he had managed a lunatic asylum abroad, and had attended with some regularity the levees of His Royal Highness Prince Albert. He wished to ask his right hon. Friend whether there was any truth in this statement?
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he was in some degree responsible for the appointment of Dr. Meyer, because he recommended him to his noble Friend now at the head of the War Office (Lord Panmure). There must be some great misapprehension, because Dr. Meyer was an Englishman, born at Norwood, near London. He was educated at Hammersmith, afterwards at Eton,
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and studied the medical profession at Guy's Hospital. He was a member of the College of Surgeons, where he passed his examination with great distinction, and had been at the head of large establishments in Norfolk Island and Van Diemen's Land. He (Mr. S. Herbert) believed that he was very favourably known at the Colonial Office; and so far from his having attended the levees of Prince Albert, he informed him (Mr. S. Herbert) that he had never had the honour in the course of his life of seeing His Royal Highness.

EDUCATION IN THE ARMY.
Order for Committee of Supply read.
Motion made and question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
MR. RICHsaid, he had intended to move for a Committee to inquire into the military education of our officers, both staff and regimental, but he found that he should not be able to bring on a motion to that effect before Easter, and therefore he was reluctantly compelled to forego his intention. The subject was, however, so important that he could not omit altogether calling the attention of the House to it. It was a lamentable fact that this nation, foremost in all peaceful arts, was not so in military matters. That, without doubt, chiefly arose from our imperfect organisation, and also from the fact that for the army officers were not specially educated. It was impossible without that education that officers could be fitted for their duties, and still less keep pace with the scientific improvements which surrounded them. With the exception of the Duke of Wellington's campaigns, and a few brilliant but isolated exploits, the history of our army from the time of Marlborough was one of blunder and failure, and not unfrequently of disaster, whereas that of the navy was one of great achievements and an almost unbroken series of successes. Why, he would ask, was there that difference? Was it not that in the navy every officer entered it as a profession, and was duly and professionally educated and subjected to severe tests before he was advanced? It was essentially treated as a profession, and its officers sustained and encouraged to undergo its severe labours by the hope of gaining its rewards. The navy were always ready whenever they were required, at the beginning, at the close, or during the progress of a war; but not so the army. We were told that there was no practi-

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cal school for the army to learn its business in; there was undoubtedly some truth in that, but only half a truth. We neglected, two years ago, an opportunity of extending that school. India was the principal quarter where the military profession might be learned practically within the British dominions; and there we had 30,000 troops. Two years ago, we agreed with the East India Company to increase the number of European troops by 10,000. But how did we effect this? Did we add that number to the Queen's troops, which would not have cost the Government one farthing, as they would have been all paid and supported by the East India Company? No, we gave authority to the East India Company to add that number to its own army, thereby creating 10,000 less good Colonial troops, instead of augmenting by 10,000 the number of, and the field of instruction for, our own troops. He earnestly hoped that this error would be rectified, or that the whole of the army in India, at least that the European portion of it, would be brought under the Crown. We might thus extend the practical skill of our officers, and we ought also to inspire them with more enterprise and energy, by a juster system of promotion and distinction. At present such inducements were not held out. Officers were placed upon the staff without any question as to military qualifications. Once upon the staff they continued upon it, and to the staff promotion mainly fell. It was impossible to overrate the unfairness of the promotion of our staff officers. There was an instance when the Queen visited Ireland. She was received at Cork by two officers, one of whom was of thirty-two years', and the other of twenty-eight years' standing; neither of them were promoted. But at Dublin, for a similar ceremony, no less than three aides-de-camp of the Lord Lieutenant's staff received the brevet rank of major, though the united services of the three would not amount to either of that of the Cork officers. That was an instance of what staff promotions were. One of those Cork officers subsequently went to Canada with his regiment, and died at his post; and the other went to Inkerman, where he fell at the head of his regiment. Of the three aides-de-camp staff officers who received promotion in Dublin, one was struck by a natural visitation, and sold out, the second was still employed on the Lord Lieutenant's staff, and the third had preferred a civil appointment to service in
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the Crimea. He (Mr. Rich) might go on multiplying these instances, if it were necessary. The efficiency of our staff officers, and the education which fitted them for their duties, were totally disregarded, yet, in time, these staff officers became the leaders of our armies; and could we, with such a contempt for fitness and preparation, wonder at the almost constant failure of our military expeditions. There was no royal road to the art of war. It must be studied, deeply, perseveringly, hopefully, and embraced as a profession. When men were found who possessed the rare qualities which were essential for a soldier, they ought to be rapidly promoted. That was the practice in foreign countries, and it was the theory in our own. The Ordnance corps and engineers were, indeed, a credit to the service; but in these a complete system of education was pursued, and no man could enter the Artillery as an officer who had not passed a satisfactory examination at the military academy at Woolwich. Those gentlemen who went into the engineers were also subjected to a severe examination, and subsequently completed their education at the arsenal and at Chatham, but when, in that manner, a highly educated body of men was obtained, no use was made of them. The general routine duty of an officer of engineers, however brilliant his talents, was such as might be performed by the most ordinary officer; he was employed to look after old buildings and barracks, and other unimportant concerns. Some of the engineer officers, thus disgusted, were what was termed "seconded," and sought occupation in matters quite irrelevant to their professions. He believed that the number of pupils at the Military College at Sandhurst was on the decrease, and that the institution had been allowed to dwindle down, although not from any want of funds; for it appeared that during the last three years no less than 2,700 l. had been paid into the Treasury as a surplus from it. In fact the college was not only self-supporting, but was, to some extent, a public charity, for some fifty of the cadets were maintained at half their cost, by charging the remainder nearly double their cost; thus excluding the sons of the middle gentry from the institution by the exorbitance of its charges. In the Military College, the junior department was intended for the education of regimental officers, and the senior department for the education of staff officers, for it was supposed

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that those gentlemen in the senior department who obtained a certificate of having passed a satisfactory examination would obtain staff appointments; but, in point of fact, that certificate was a mere mockery, and with very few exceptions had never met its reward. Why was not the 900 l. a year surplus which that college paid for the last three years into the public purse employed in educating more young men for commissions? Simply because, if that course were adopted, the patronage of the Horse Guards would be diminished. Now, with respect to the distribution of the commissions that were granted, he found that the number given between the years 1830 and 1847 was nearly 2,200; and of these, during those seventeen years, 446 were given to men who had shown distinguished merit in the ranks or as noncommissioned officers; of the remainder, 476 were given to the cadets who had passed through the studies and examinations of the Military College with honour, and had been recommended to the Commander in Chief. But what became of the rest? There were 1,269 commissions which had been granted, as it was stated, "to gentlemen"—that is to say, they had been given away by favour, or they had been sold. Several of those who procured them might have been also at the Military College, but merely as a place of resort, without being constrained to follow any department of study, or pass even any examinations. But half of them, at least, were young gentlemen who had not undergone even this preliminary, but had entered the army with no notion of following it as a profession, but who, being the heirs to large estates, had been placed in the army after having completed their school education, as a means of a very questionable discipline or prevention for keeping them out of the gaieties of London and Paris. These two classes furnished almost exclusively for the staff; the 446 who got commissions after having served in the ranks were, from their age and from their previous habits, not qualified for the staff, and the 476 who got commissions by their industry, their talents, and good behaviour at the college, being poor men, without interest, could not under the present system presume to obtain any staff appointment. So it happened that the staff appointments of the British army fell to the lot of the 600 or 700 gentlemen who without preparation and without previous merit got their commissions during
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those seventeen years by the sole advantage of their fortune or social position; now what security, therefore, was there for their knowing anything of that which it was necessary for a soldier to know? There was no security; and until 1847 there were no precautions taken that these men should be even acquainted with the ordinary education of a gentleman much less with the duties of their profession; since then an examination was instituted by the noble Lord who was then Secretary at War, of which he (Mr. Rich) did not say that it was a good one, but which he believed was likely to prove a much more successful examination than that which had been prescribed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Wiltshire (Mr. S. Herbert). It required a knowledge of the first elements of arithmetic and geometry, history and geography—a little smattering of Latin—or, failing that, of French or German, and some little knowledge of fortification; but, little as it was, it caused numbers of young men, who before that were intending to obtain commissions, to shrink from undergoing that examination, and so to abandon the idea of entering the army; and many others, who came up with all the assistance which "crammers" could render them, were "plucked" two or three times before they could pass. The poor orphan boys in the military school at Chelsea, or in the Royal Hibernian School, the sons of private soldiers, would have passed that ex-animation, he believed, much more readily. Could we be surprised, then, at the inefficient character of our staff? and did not that throw light on our failures? It was said that the French army had a practical school of war in Algiers, but he doubted whether it was so good as ours in India. The French, however, did not rely upon Algiers only for the training of their officers. The French had six or eight different military academies to prepare officers and men for the staff for every branch of the service. And what was their preparation for the highest branch? A young man was selected who had passed through the inferior colleges with distinction, and was then, for the next two years, put through a course of military administration, history, geography, and topography; statistics, mathematics, and the sciences; mechanics, gunnery, fortification, and modern languages. For sixteen months of the two years the teaching was theoretical, for six months practical, and the other two months were filled up by a very severe examina-

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tion. After that he was attached for two years to some regiment of the line, then for another two years to a regiment of cavalry, and subsequently for two years more to the artillery; and, at the end of those eight years, and not till then, was he considered fit to serve on the staff with honour to himself and advantage to his country. But what was our course? The lucky son or nephew of some good-natured general, or of a good-natured general's lucky friend, was accepted without hesitation as an aide-de-camp. The fortunate youth was then initiated in the mysteries of dancing and carving, writing invitations, and singing a good song, laughing at his general's jokes and entertaining his guests. In due and quick time these accomplishments brought him promotion; he speedily became a major of brigade, or had a post in the departments of quartermaster general or of the adjutant general; thus he rose high in the army, but acquired no military knowledge, when suddenly a war broke out, and then the officer had to learn his duties—but how, and at whose expense? He learned them in the field, at haphazard, by error and mistakes, and at the cost of national disaster, and the noble blood of the English soldier, or, sadder still, of the miseries and privation which, by the ignorance of those in command, those soldiers were made to suffer. The honour of England and the lives of our army were too precious to be subjected any longer to such direful deficiences. Let the Government, therefore, take this matter into their most serious consideration. Let them take care that all the officers of our army, whether for regimental or staff service, should be well and thoroughly educated, and that, afterwards, those who best fitted themselves for duty should be encouraged by the juster dispensation of the professional honours.
CAPTAIN SCOBELLseconded the Motion.
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Quesion, in order to add the words, "it is expedient that measures be taken for promoting the efficiency of our Military Academies and other established provisions for preparing Officers for Regimental and for Staff Appointments,"—instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, the hon.
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Member for Richmond who had brought this subject forward had expressed his regret that he was unable to move for the appointment of a Committee. Now he (Mr. Peel) would admit that such a Committee might have led to the collection of a valuable body of evidence, but he was not sorry that it had not been proposed, for he believed that, so far from causing this question to make any progress, it would have had an opposite tendency, inasmuch as the Government were now giving their attention to this important subject, and if a Committee were appointed, the Government would be bound to suspend their action until the Committee had made their report upon it. He considered it inconvenient, both to himself and to the department with which he was connected, that, seeing the little time which the Government had yet had to mature their views upon the many important questions that were pending, he should be called upon to express an opinion upon matters of great moment vitally affecting the organisation of the army and following each other in rather close succession. Only two or three nights ago the House was treated to a discussion which involved the question of admitting privates and non-commissioned officers of the army —men advanced in age, and however well acquainted with the duties of a soldier, not possessing an education superior to that given in common elementary schools—into the class of commissioned officers; and now the hon. Member (Mr. Rich) has brought forward a question founded upon an opposite assumption, for it was recommended that a higher education should be given to the officers, and that superior qualifications should be exacted of them. Now, with regard to the general value of education for our officers, there could be no difference of opinion whatever. As his right hon. Friend the late Secretary for the Colonies said the other evening, every officer ought to understand the practical part of his duty, but no officer was the less capable of doing his duty because he understood the theory and science of the military profession. He (Mr. Peel) believed that the more our officers had their minds disciplined and their intelligence cultivated, the more would their resources be multiplied, enabling them to adapt themselves with the more facility to the varying exigencies of the military service. He did not speak merely of a professional education, but of general litera-

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ture. A Bill which passed that House the other day, for raising a foreign legion, might illustrate the importance of general studies to an officer. Under that Act, we should have an assemblage of diverse nationalities, to place which under the command of an English officer would require that he should be acquainted with the different languages of Europe—German, French, and others; and so an officer familiar with foreign languages would enjoy multiplied opportunities of getting employment and of advancing himself. But although he (Mr. Peel) was favourable to education, he would not have it of too high a character. He believed that if too high an educational standard were established for the army, we should lose the services of many competent and valuable men. It was a common remark, that men, who at school and college were beaten by their competitors, would afterwards, in the real business of life, leave those competitors behind, not because in all cases they possessed greater social advantages of wealth or station, but from their having an instinctive knowledge of the way in which to turn what they did know to account for the public benefit. This should be strongly kept in view in the education of our army. The hon. Gentleman referred, amongst other matters, to the present means which this country had of furnishing education to our officers. It did not require more than a cursory glance at those means to feel satisfied that they were extremely scanty, and that the institutions which were established in this country did not, and were not intended to, supply the want which was referred to by the hon. Gentleman. Excepting the institution at Woolwich, there was nothing but the Military College at Sandhurst, and that the hon. Gentleman said had been reduced because the Commander in Chief was unwilling to lose his patronage. But there he thought the hon. Gentleman was mistaken, because it was not the Government, but that House, which had restricted the extent of its accommodation. It was a self-supporting institution at the present time, but not exactly in the way stated by the hon. Member. The hon. Member said there were ten inmates who paid nothing at all, and forty who paid a moderate sum. But the fact was, that there were twenty-five orphan children and other sons of officers who paid a sum of 40 l. a year, and the College was able to take theta at
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that low rate in consequence of the high charge which was levied on a third class containing some 110 pupils; and the advantages of the education of the officers were so great, that there was no difficulty on the part of the college to procure boys who paid a sum which was not only sufficient for their education, but also to support those who were received at a lower rate. The hon. Member suggested that the basis of the college should be enlarged, and that every officer intended for the army should pass through that institution. He was not disposed to agree in the policy of that recommendation, as be believed no great results would be found to attend a system which educated in a military manner persons of very youthful age. By devoting themselves to one particular study, narrow notions of their professions would be formed by those for whom the education was designed. The best class of public officers would, he conceived, be found among those who had passed through the public schools and universities, and who possessed a knowledge of general literature. The hon. Gentleman had also referred to the examinations as at present required by the rules of the service. He (Mr. Peel) was not aware of what was required by the examiners, but at least the examination secured that the officers were not illiterate. He thought that the plan recommended by his right hon. Friend secured that which the hon. Gentleman proposed, that when an officer required a commission, he should be prepared to pass a preliminary examination, and that he should receive, not merely a military education, but a general one. The plan of his right hon. Friend went on to provide, and he thought properly, that when an officer had received a first commission he should be required to pass subsequent examinations before he obtained a further grade, or before he obtained his company; and the only reason why the scheme had not been brought to maturity was the difficulty of appointing instructors in consequence of the persons who would lave been selected being required for the more pressing service of the army in the East. He thought, however, the circumstance of there being a war was no reason why they should not proceed in carrying out the plan. Whether the war was or was not to be continued, it was for the Government to see that measures were Alien to provide officers with the means

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of acquiring a full knowledge both of the theory and of the practice of their profession, and the plan of his right hon. Friend, that there should be appointed at every head-quarters in this country and the Colonies certain instructors before whom the officers of the regiments serving in that command should be required to attend a course of lectures, and to pass an examination with success, before they received a further promotion, would, he thought, be attended with very advantageous results. With regard to the staff appointments, considering that those who were on the staff had very considerable advantages over the regimental officers, he certainly thought that those staff appointments should be considered as the prizes of the profession. Under the present system it not unfrequently happened that officers were appointed general officers, who, not from any fault of their own, but from the fault of the system, were familiar only with one branch of their duty. It would be possible to select officers who had most distinguished themselves at the district examinations proposed to be held, and to send them to some central station or to one of the large encampments to be formed when they would have an opportunity of learning the duties of all the difficult branches of the service, and from men thus trained and qualified, the Government might select those who were to hold staff appointments. With regard to the étatmajor of the French army, as he understood, that was a staff corps distinct from the other divisions of the army. Whether it was desirable or not for us to adopt that system was, of course, a matter for serious consideration. He trusted that the hon. Gentleman would be satisfied with this cursory review of his observations, and that he would not press his Motion.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that there was one very easy means of improving the education of the army without costing the country anything, and that was simply by ensuring employment to those officers who knew their duty. The great reason why we had no good staff officers was, that, whatever might be their attainments, their study, or their knowledge, they found them no recommendations for employment. Another great reason for the deficiency of our staff officers was the fact that there did not exist in the English language a single really useful work devoted to a description
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of the duties of staff officers, and there was scarcely an officer to be found who could define with accuracy the duties of either the adjutant or quartermaster general. During the visit of the French officers to the camp at Chobham, they expressed their opinion that our regimental system was perfect, but that our staff arrangements were sadly deficient. It was perfectly absurd, in his opinion, to suppose that any academies of the country would produce staff officers. Every staff officer must educate himself. He should go to France, make himself master of the French language, and make himself acquainted with the system adopted in that country. He considered, at the same time, that it was impossible, from the peculiar constitution of the British army, to introduce the French school of the état major into it. He would again repeat, that the staff appointments ought only to be given to those who were, upon examination, found perfectly qualified to discharge the duties of the appointment.
MR. OWEN STANLEYsaid, he hoped the hon. Member for Richmond did not intend to press his Motion to a division, but notwithstanding he thought the Government had adopted a proceeding which would prove injurious to the army by promoting sergeants to the rank of officers. Composed as the English army was, it required great caution as to the system of promotion which should be adopted. If there should be an indiscriminate promotion of non-commissioned officers, it would inevitably do injury both to the army and to the individuals themselves. He was glad to find that the Government was taking the whole system of the army into their consideration. That was much better than having isolated Motions brought forward by independent Members, which only had the effect of preventing the Government taking immediate and decisive measures on the subject.
MR. OTWAYsaid, he could not avoid expressing his surprise that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of War, when speaking of the circumstances attending the expedition to the Crimea and the education of the officers, should have treated the subject as merely a question of money. With regard to the Motion before the House, he would observe that in France there were many colleges where persons were educated by the State; but in England no such thing could be said to exist.

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By a return which had been made of the number of orphans of the officers of the army who were gratuitously educated at public institutions, it appeared that there were eight educated at one establishment, and only two at another. He was pleased to learn from the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) that the plan of the late Secretary for War was to be carried out—namely, that periodical examinations should be made of every officer before he should obtain any increased rank in the service. With regard to the appointments on the staff, he did not concur in what had fallen from the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Dunne) as to the facility with which officers of the staff might be educated. A most disastrous affair had recently occurred, which illustrated how necessary it was that a staff officer should possess higher qualifications than merely those of a regimental officer. He alluded, of course, to the cavalry charge at Balaklava. An order was conveyed from the commander in chief to a general officer in command, and a misunderstanding arose between that officer and the aide-de-camp who was the bearer of the order, as to the interpretation to be put upon it. Now, if the general officer was possessed of the power, not only of carrying out the order of the commander in chief, but also of interpreting it, then it would be immaterial whether the aide-de-camp possessed the qualification of interpreting or not. But when power was given to that staff officer to put a construction upon the order, then it was not enough that he should be a good rider, but that he should also be an officer capable of interpreting the orders of the commander in chief to whose staff he belonged.
MR. BELLEWsaid, he thought, as reference had been made to the charge at Balaklava, the House ought not to forget that the order in that case was a written one, and had the officer who carried it to the general of division simply delivered it the charge in question might not have been made.
MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, he hoped the House would not rush into the opposite extreme, under the idea that education would make a good general. The Duke of Marlborough, it was well known, was one of the most illiterate men of his day, and Marshal Saxe could not sign his own name. With the exception of Bernadotte, there were few of the French marshals—and he might certainly say neither
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Soult nor Massena—who had received any education. There was great danger that, having heard too much on one side, they might now rush into the opposite extreme.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, there is no doubt much truth in what the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Phillimore) has said, but the case comes to this—when you apply a test of qualification for a particular employment, you must take care not to employ a test applicable to another totally different employment. It is quite true that the attainments which qualify a man to be a good officer are not the same which would qualify a man to be a learned professor; and if you require your officers to pass an examination which will qualify them for a professorial chair, you will certainly commit a great error. Upon the other hand, great advantages would arise from taking care that upon each step of promotion an officer should keep himself up to proper progress in the attainments belonging to the profession of which he is a member. The qualities which constitute a good general are qualities which must be inborn in the man. The combination of qualities which make a great general is one of the rarest which occurs in the moral constitution of man. My belief is, that you will find a great many more men fitted to be successful statesmen than men suited to take command, and who have all the foresight necessary for the performance of the duties attaching to that station. At the same time, it is highly important that your officers should keep well up and make progress in their profession; and those examinations which have been alluded to are examinations which I think ought to be tests of military knowledge. It would be desirable that that test should not only be applied upon the first entrance into office, but that the officers should also understand that unless they occupy their minds and perfect themselves in those matters which are essential to a proper performance of military duties, they will not gain such promotion as they are desirous to obtain.
COLONEL KNOXsaid, he thought it would be of great advantage to their service if the system adopted in foreign armies was carried out. There, when a young officer was perfect in his military duties, he was for a short time attached to the artillery, then to the engineers and the cavalry; and he thereby learned the routine of all the branches of the service. There was no means in their service by

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which a general officer could obtain that knowledge which would enable him to make effective use of the different arms. He was quite certain that more would be learned in that way than by any system of examination.
MR. RICHsaid, that after the satisfactory statement the Government had made, he would not press his Motion.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES—SUPPLY.
House in Committee of Supply; Mr. BOUVERIE in the Chair.
MR. MONSELLsaid, that the present Estimate for the expenses of the Ordnance Department was the largest that had ever yet been laid before Parliament. Although the estimates showed such a very large increase of expenditure, there were few hon. Members in the House who would not be able to give a reason for the increase of almost every one of the items. He would first call the attention of the Committee to the Supplementary Estimates, for which a Vote had previously been taken, but no details of which had been presented to the House. The total amount of the Supplementary Estimates for last year was 1,402,961 l. The first Vote was a sum of 267,000 l. under the head of barrack supplies, and it included a sum of 129,518 l. for barrack bedding for the hospitals at Scutari and Smyrna, and for replacing stores at Malta. There was a sum of 106,000 l. for additional great coats, boots, and shoes, for the troops. Some remarks had been made with respect to the size and quality of the boots sent out to the troops. Those articles were not, however, supplied by the Ordnance, but by the clothiers of the regiments. With respect to the boots that were sent out, the precautions were taken that two smaller sizes of the boots established by the Army were left out, and in the place of them two larger sizes were selected; and although the boots might have been too small in cases where the men wore two or three pairs of stockings, still they were, in fact, larger than those usually supplied to the Army. The remainder of the Vote was a sum of 42,806 l. for miscellaneous stores. The next Vote was 142,000 l. for warm clothing for the convalescents, and 92,000 l. for blankets, &c. Then there was a charge of 54,800 l. for huts for troops in the Crimea, 19,041 l. for stable huts for the Crimea, and 12,969 l. for hospital huts for 2,000 patients. And
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also a sum of 12,930 l. for huts for 3,000 men at Heligoland. The next Vote was a sum of 382,500 l. for warm and waterproof clothing and waterproof articles for the troops. In justice to the gentlemen who undertook the supplies of those articles, and who, in his opinion, carried out the directions given them by the Government with great celerity, he stated that the whole of the supplies which were lost in the Prince were replaced within three days of the time when the news first arrived of the loss of that vessel. The Committee would doubtless be surprised, but he thought at the same time gratified, to hear the enormous extent of the shipments of these articles. In the month of November there were shipped from the Tower 130 tons of warm clothing, and by Messrs. Hayter and Powell 344 tons; in December, 752 tons from the Tower, and 234 tons by Messrs. Hayter and Powell; in January, 309 tons from the Tower, and 180 tons by Messrs. Hayter and Powell. He would next ask the Committee to consider whether this clothing was, under the circumstances, supplied economically. It was supplied in great haste, under very urgent circumstances, and of course anybody who had to do with the supply of it felt that the real object they had to consider was not price, but to get the thing they wanted as rapidly and expeditiously as they could. He had caused an accurate calculation to be made of the amount. The price paid exceeded the price at which they might reasonably expect to obtain the article, if they were not in the hurry he had described. The calculation had been made by independent authorities; one of whom was connected with the Ordnance Office, and the other was not connected with that department. The instruction given to the gentlemen connected with the Ordnance Office was to give the benefit of any doubt he entertained against the department, and his calculation was that the extra amount paid was about 10 per cent more than should have been paid if the articles were got in the ordinary course of business. From the other calculation it appeared that the extra amount paid was 7½ per cent more than the ordinary price. The essence of the contract made with the contractor for the clothing was time. and in every instance the object was to get the article as rapidly as possible. The amount of fines imposed for the non-fulfilment of contracts amounted to about 4½ per cent; and,

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balancing the two figures he had mentioned, he thought the amount the country had paid for warm clothing, over and above a reasonable sum, was somewhere about 4½ per cent. There were of course some articles dearer than others. Sonic were got at a very reasonable price, and there were other articles for which they were charged a great deal too much. But, on the whole, the average amount paid over and above the sum that should have been paid if the articles were obtained in ordinary times, was about 4 per cent. With regard to the quality of the articles supplied, he had the advantage of obtaining the opinion of Messrs. Hayter and Powell, and the persons they employed, and they stated to him that the articles supplied were of excellent quality. He (Mr. Monsell) was firmly convinced, after a searching inquiry, that the warm clothing sent out was, generally speaking, of a most excellent quality. There was another point to which he wished to call the attention of the Committee, and that was with regard to the mode in which it was said the stores sent out to the East were packed. There was a statement in the public prints that the Robert Lowe transport ship had conveyed medical stores to Scutari, over which were placed cylinders of powder for Balaklava. That matter had been carefully investigated by a Committee appointed by the late Secretary of War, and that Committee unanimously reported that the charge was entirely unfounded, and that such an arrangement was, from the nature of things, utterly impossible; because the cylinders were of such enormous weight that they must be packed with great care in the hold of the ship, and could not be placed elsewhere. With regard to the Prince, it was stated that the shot and shell for Balaklava were placed on the top of the medical stores, but the Committee having also investigated that charge, declared it to be entirely unfounded. The neglect that had occurred in the case of the cargoes of these two vessels was not on the part of those who packed the goods, but of those who had to deliver them on their arrival at their respective destinations. The next item in the estimates was 25,000 l. for erecting a shell factory for the manufacture of Lancaster shells. Hon. Gentlemen were not probably aware that the new invention was first submitted to the Government in the year 1852. Investigations and experiments with regard to it went on, but be-
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fore the invention was quite ripe for use, the war broke out, and it was considered desirable to make use of them in the best way they could. The use of Nasmyth's hammer was necessary in the construction of the shells, and before they were sufficiently tested by experiments it was thought unwise to get a large number of these very expensive articles. The construction of the shells was very expensive, because they had to be reheated eleven times in consequence of there being only one of the Nasmyth's hammers in use. There were 1,800 shells made, and the cost of each was 6l. In the month of November last Lord Raglan transmitted to this country a Report from Colonel Lake, with regard to the operation of the gulls and shells before Sebastopol, and that Report was extremely satisfactory. It appeared that when the shells were handled and the guns were loaded by persons who had experience in the management of them, they were on the whole—if not perfect—of very great use in the field. Therefore, it was decided by the Government that a large number of these shells should be produced with as little delay as possible. He had had the advantage of a consultation on the subject with Mr. Nasmyth, who had most liberally placed his factory in Manchester at the disposal of the Government for the construction of shells; but on finding out the plant that would be required to be erected, and having a plant already at Woolwich, he came to the conclusion that the arrangement would not be an economical one to the Government, and that they should proceed with the work in their own factory. This was accordingly done, and the factory having been completed by the great exertions of Sir Charles Fox and Mr. Henderson in the course of two months, they were now producing sixty shells a day, and would very soon be producing one hundred shells a day. Those shells would now cost about 1l. 16 s. 2d. a piece instead of 6l. The next Vote which he came to in the Supplementary Estimates was for a sum of 15,000 l. for the erection of a gun factory at Enfield. In Vote 6 of the Estimates there was a sum of 40,000 l. demanded for that factory, making the entire sum required for it 55,000 l. A Committee was appointed last Session to consider a proposition made on the part of the Government for the erection of a very large factory, where it was intended to have produced by machinery, at a cheap rate, 150,000 muskets a year. That Committee, however, was unfa-

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vourable to the project on so great a scale, and they recommended that a manufactory should be tried on a limited scale, which would serve as an experiment, to show the advantages to be derived from a more extensive application of machinery, besides serving as a check upon the price of contractors, and supplying a resource in times of emergency. After the report of the Committee was given in, three gentlemen went to America, namely Colonel Burn of the Royal Artillery, a distinguished officer; Captain Ward, who had devoted a great deal of his attention to the construction of small arms; and Mr. Anderson. It had been very generally stated by persons who were opposed to the proposed factory, that his (Mr. Monsell's) views were founded merely on theory, and that there was no experience to support them. The gentlemen sent out were authorised to expend in the purchase of machinery a sum of 10,000 l.; and a little time after they had arrived in the United States they communicated with him (Mr. Monsell) on the subject of the machinery they had witnessed there. Colonel Burn wrote, stating that the more they had seen of the operation of the musket machinery in America, and the extraordinary effect it produced, the more they were convinced of the absolute necessity of a radical change in our system, and of our establishing a complete and permanent organisation to enable us to secure a continuous supply of the best article at a cheap rate. Colonel Burn also observed that, though the work of the machinery at Springfield, in Massachusetts, and at Harper's Ferry, in Virginia, differed in certain respects, according to the skill of the engineer, yet the operations were so perfect that an interchange of muskets in all their parts was made between them quarterly, and that the result was found to be the same as if they had been all produced by one engineer only. Subsequently, Colonel Burn applied for permission to spend a larger amount than the 10,000 l. first specified in the purchase of machinery in America. He (Mr. Monsell) went with that letter to the Treasury, and subsequently authorised Colonel Burn to spend a further sum, and there was actually expended in the purchase of machinery in America a sum of 17,000 l. When these gentlemen returned home, they brought with them a very elaborate and interesting report, stating the result of their investigations, with such ample reasons for what they stated, that it was impossible for
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any person to resist the conclusion at which they had arrived. They stated in their report that the anticipations entertained in this country, not only as to the rapidity with which muskets could be manufactured by machinery, but as to the cost at which they could be manufactured, were more than realised, and they expressed their conviction in the strongest manner that the experiment of establishing such a manufacture in this country would be followed by great and most signal success. The next point that called for attention was the size of the factory in which the machinery should be received. The decision to which the Government ultimately came was, that it should be a factory capable of manufacturing 50,000 muskets a year. He could state, he thought, very strong reasons to induce the Committee to agree in that decision. It was found, upon very careful calculations, that if the factory was constructed for the manufacture of one-half the number, the same staff would be required to manage it, and very nearly the same quantity of machinery. For the manufacture of 50,000 muskets per year there would be required between 600 and 700 machines, and of those machines very few would be in duplicate; there should be single machines for making single parts, and, unless they constructed their factory of a size to enable them to manufacture 50,000, they would have their machinery for half a year perfectly idle. It was accordingly decided that a factory should be prepared in which 50,000 muskets could be manufactured per annum, and directions were given to the proper officers to prepare a place for that purpose. Very strong remonstrances were addressed to the Board of Ordnance certainly against the erection of a factory at Enfield, and the propriety of erecting it at Woolwich was suggested, but they thought they should adhere to the decision they had come to, and accordingly it was resolved to have the factory at Enfield. According to the first plan for the erection of a building, the estimate was about 30,000 l.; but the gentlemen to whom he had referred, on returning from America, where they had an opportunity of seeing the system on which the factories there were carried on, stated their conviction of the great advantage resulting from having abundance of room in the arsenals in America, and strongly pressed that the proposed size of the factory should be enlarged. Their views were adopted, and

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the tenders for the factory consequently amounted to about 48,000 l. There would, however, be certain deductions from that amount, and he believed the actual cost for building the factory would be 43,000 l. or 44,000 l. With regard to the cost of the machinery, he should mention that, as he had already stated, the machinery purchased in America cost 17,000, but besides that they had purchased 9,000 l. worth of machinery in this country, making the entire sum paid for machinery, 26,000 l. During the months of October, November, and December, the Government had felt the deepest anxiety for the supply of small arms, and they had been compelled to have recourse to the markets of other countries to obtain an additional number of arms. Under these circumstances, the Minister of War decided that it was expedient that the factory should be proceeded with at once, and he authorised the Board of Ordnance to enter at once into contracts for its erection. Accordingly they did so, and at the present moment the factory was being constructed at Enfield for the sum he had mentioned. He believed they would be able to commence operations in it on the 1st of July; and although it would not then be in full operation, they might expect, even during the present year, to manufacture a considerable number of arms there. Passing from the subject of the Supplementary Estimate, he came next to the General Estimates for the year. In the Vote for pay allowances and contingencies there was an increase, as compared with last year, of 103,543 l., but that was owing to the addition to the Ordnance corps of half a battalion of engineers and a battalion of artillery. in the Vote for the movement of troops there was an increase of 11,200 l.; and in the vote for recruiting, the bounty having been raised, there was an increase of 12,094 l. He need hardly point out the necessity for increasing the engineer and artillery force l a force which was now about 7,000 less in strength than it was in the year 1814. No force in any country could have distinguished itself more than our artillery and engineer corps had done in the recent operations in the East. It was a remarkable fact that our platforms before Sebastopol had required so little repair that, although shells had exploded over our magazines, not one of them had been blown up. He should next call attention to the Vote for Commissariat and Barrack supplies, &c., on which there was
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an increase of 103,473 l. The sum required for barrack supplies amounted to 355,450 l., including supplies for the camp at Aldershot, 36,000 l., for foreign troops, 40,000 l. for the depôt about to be formed at Malta. There was a sum of 115,000 l. for great coats, and in the amount for boots and shoes there was was an increase of 43,512 l. The clothing for the foreign legion was 90,000 l., men and clothing for the militia, an increase of 56,950 l. He might add to his former remarks respecting the warm clothing, that the Government had sent out an able and experienced officer with an experienced clerk, and some of the best labourers from the Tower, well acquainted with the package of stores, to Balaklava, there to collect the warm clothing and send them to a storehouse in the Bosphorus, with a view to preserve them for future use. Vote 3 was intended to be withdrawn. There were certain changes likely to be made in the Ordnance Office, and when those were effected, an estimate would then be presented to the House. On Vote 4 there was an excess over the last year of 19,504 l. for Ordnance establishments. There was an increase in the home establishments, 5,954 l.; lodging the Irish militia, 10,000 l.; lodging the foreign legion, 2,500 l.; and additional clerks of works, 938 l. However, in every colonial establishment, except those situate near the seat of war, there had been a diminution of expense, and the decrease upon that head would have been greater had it not been for the necessity of forming a new establishment in the Bosphorus. Vote 5, for wages, 368,872 l., was 81,027 l. in excess of last year, arising, of course, from the enormous demand for labour at the different establishments. He would call attention to one item in which there was a decrease, which must strike everybody as remarkable, and which required explanation. It was a diminution of 16,336 l. in the amount asked for the new gun factory at Woolwich. The explanation, however, was easy and simple. In the month of May last he found that the supply of shells was very deficient indeed; and, in point of fact, if any great action had been fought, either by land or by sea, they could not have replenished the magazines, and they would, consequently, have been exposed to great danger. Finding that to be the case, he sent for an officer of the most distinguished scientific talent, who had displayed great mechanical ingenuity and inventive powers, Captain Boxer,

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a gentleman whose services had been so much recognised in the East. His shell had been acknowledged by all the authorities at the seat of war to be the most valuable invention that had been introduced for more than twenty years into the service. He (Mr. Monsell) sent for Captain Boxer, and pointed out to him the position they were in. Captain Boxer at once undertook to remove the difficulty, if he were allowed to make use of an old storehouse in Woolwich as a factory for the manufacture of fuses, and the "bouching" of shells. The proposal was agreed to, the necessary works were erected for 7,000 l., and that 7,000 l. was saved in the first six months. Having agreed to Captain Boxer's terms, he gave him the fullest authority in the matter, and left to him the erection of the factory and everything connected with it. In that factory there had been saved to the country a sum of 1,200 l. in one week. The saving in that factory was at the rate of 60,000 l. a year, but he did not mean to say that 60,000 l. had been saved, because the factory was not sufficiently long at work. If it had worked every week in the year, in the way it had worked during the week to which he had alluded, the saving thereby effected would be 60,000 l. in the year, and he believed that there would actually be a saving at the end of the year of about 40,000 l. The factory was not always kept at work, because it was found that it was not possible to obtain the shell itself with sufficient rapidity for that purpose. A few items would show the great advantage which the factory had proved to the country. Before its establishment there were 500 Moorsom fuses made weekly; afterwards there were 1,050, and at a saving of 141 l. Of shells prepared for fuses there had been 3,500 per week; since the establishment of the factory the number was 10,257, at a saving in wages of 110 l. There had been 3,000 wooden fuses made weekly, now there were 10,000, at a saving of 72 l. The result was, that whereas in May the number of 8-inch shells in the storekeeper's departments was 4,398, it now amounted to 10,886. He was perfectly aware that this country, with its manufacturing powers so extensively developed in all articles of ironwork, ought to produce any number of shells which could possibly be required; but still the fact remained that we had now been a year at war, and that a sufficient number of shells had not been supplied. The demand had,
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in truth, been much greater than the supply. It was found, also, that a considerable increase had been made by the contractors in the price of the shells supplied to Government. In 1852, 8-inch shells were supplied to Government at 7l. 8s. per ton, but the price charged in 1855 was 13 l. 16 s., making an increase of 6l. 8s. per ton. No doubt it would be said that this increase was caused, to a certain extent, by the increase in the price of iron; but the cost of iron of the quality of which shells were made, which was, in 1852, 3l, 2s. 7d. per ton, in 1855 had only risen to 3l. 18 s. 4d. per ton, being an increase of only 15 s. 9d. The amount of fuel required for the manufacture of a ton of shells was said to be five cwt., and, at that calculation, the cost of fuel for manufacturing shells would be 4s. 9d. per ton in 1852, and in 1855, 6s. 2d., making an increase of ls. 3d. In the same way, the labour which, in 1852, cost 1l. 7s. per ton, in 1855 cost 1l. 9s. 6d., according to the authority of one of the largest manufacturing firms in Bradford—one of the principal places where the manufacture of Government shells was carried on; and, lastly, the freight from that district which, in 1852, was 10 s. per ton, in 1855 had risen to 1l., being an increase of 10 s. This made altogether an increase in the price of a ton of shells of 4l. 17 s. 11 d. The Government, therefore, feeling the immediate want of shells—though they knew that, in time, they should be able to obtain as many as they might require —taking into consideration the great increase of the price of shells, and the advantage of putting themselves in a position to control the contractors, and being sensible, moreover, of the importance of attaching a foundry to the Royal Laboratory, where they might be able, at a moment's notice almost, to supply any number of any given sort of shells which might be wanted on a sudden emergency, had determined to establish this foundry at Woolwich; and he was firmly convinced that, had it only been established six months ago, a saving would already have been effected of more than the amount—10,000 l. —which was asked for its construction. It would be of the greatest service, too, in enabling the contractors to learn with greater rapidity how to make the particular sorts of shells which were required; for at present considerable time was lost before they were able to construct them with that accuracy and perfection which were indispensable in these articles; and he was

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sorry to say that very frequently the old contractors were backward in allowing the new contractors to inspect their modes of manufacture. This Vote, however, for the shell foundry was not the only one which he was about to ask for on account of machinery in connection with the Royal Laboratory, for it must be remembered, with regard to all these works, that they were required for the manufacture of articles for which there was no demand in the country except on the part of the Government, and that the country, therefore, to be prepared for the commencement of a war, must either have kept large stores of these articles, or else have had establishments in which these stores could be rapidly replenished. Now, nothing could be more inexpedient than to keep large stores at a time when every day was bringing forth new discoveries, and when a thing that was new one day was obsolete the next. As a mere matter of economy, it was of the greatest possible importance to have an establishment where, by means of the best machinery—which would soon repay its own cost by a diminution of the expenses of labour—large quantities of these articles could be rapidly supplied, and this really was the justification of all these votes asked for on account of machinery. The saving which would result from the erection of this machinery, independently of the greater perfection and accuracy insured, would be very great. For instance, it included machinery which would manufacture 150,000 war rockets in the year (the present supply of which was most inadequate) at a saving of somewhere about 30,000 l; also for making 60,000,000 small arm cartridges in the year by a new patent, by which somewhere about 25,000 l. would be saved annually. The next Vote to which he wished to call the attention of the House was the sum of 800,000 l. for small arms, being an increase of 543,600 l. on the Vote asked for last year. There was considerable doubt, however, whether all this sum would be expended, for the accounts which he had received from the manufacturers, both in this country and at Liege, were anything but satisfactory. On the other hand, he must say that many of the manufacturers were using great exertions, and he was happy to state that two of the principal ones the other day informed him that, with the exception of one small grievance, which he had the power of removing at the moment, they had no grievances to complain of. They were perfectly content with the way in
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which operations were conducted by the Government, and he trusted that, under these circumstances, they would redouble their exertions, and not allow the country to be left in the miserable and melancholy condition in which it was placed last year with respect to Minié rifles. The Vote for machinery he had already alluded to, and consequently he would now pass on to Vote No. 7, where there was an increase of 454,679 l. over the Vote of last year. This was partly occasioned by new barracks about to be erected by the direction of the Government on the western heights of Dover, which would cost 60,000 l., and which he believed to be absolutely necessary to the perfection of the defences there; by new barracks at Gosport for the same purpose, which would cost 61,000 l.; and also by the erection of permanent barracks at Aldershot, which would cost a sum of 250,000 l. These last would be complete barracks in every particular, and would afford to the troops a permanent opportunity for concentration and acting together in large bodies, thereby giving our officers the means of learning the art, not only of commanding regiments, but also of large detachments and bodies of men. These new buildings would be erected at an expense considerably less than the barracks which it had been the habit to use in this country. The change was chiefly owing to the Commission which had been sent over to Belgium to inspect the barracks used for a similar purpose in that country. The next Vote (No. 8) related to the scientific branch, and exhibited an increase of 3,828 l. over the Vote of last year; the increase required for the Royal Military Academy being 1,759 l., and for the increase for establishment at Chatham 1,924 l. The increase in these cases was occasioned by an increased number of cadets and engineers. A great item in this Vote was, as usual, occasioned by the sum for the Ordnance survey. In respect to this matter, the Committee were aware that last year a great controversy arose on the subject of the scale, and, queries being sent out, a large preponderance of the answers were in favour of a much larger scale than six inches, and arrangements were adopted for having a scale of somewhere about twenty-four inches to the mile. At the present moment, experiments were being tried to work the survey by means of contracts with private individuals and by piecework; and he hoped that in the course of three or four months sufficient

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experience would be obtained to enable the Government to come to a final decision on the subject. The maps, he believed, were to be engraved by the anastatic process. The next and last Vote, for the non-effective services, military and civil, exhibited an increase over the sum voted last year of 19,659 l. This was occasioned by new warrants; and here he might mention that he found that the junior first captain placed an the list in 1805 averaged ten years' service, and he now averaged fourteen years' service. The senior lieutenant-colonel in 1805 was an officer of thirty-two years' service, and he was now an officer of forty-four years' service. The whole sum required for the non-effective services, military and civil, amounted to 197,657 l.
(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That a sum, not exceeding 1,402,961 l. be granted to Her Majesty, for defraying the Charge which will probably be incurred to the 31st day of March, 1855, on account of Barrack Supplies, &c., Wages and Ordnance Stores, &c."
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he understood that an unfavourable Report had been forwarded to the Government as to the unhealthy site of the proposed hospital at Smyrna. He believed it was more so than Scutari, and, after the month of May, it would be very destructive to the lives of our soldiers. He hoped that those who were qualified to give advice on this matter would be listened to. As to the supply of greatcoats to the army and the militia, he would suggest, as he conceived it impossible for the Ordnance, for some time to come at least, to furnish the necessary supply, that the colonels of each regiment should be authorised to furnish them, and should only receive the actual price. Many of the greatcoats supplied to the French army—a portion of which were lent to our troops —had actually been made in London, and yet our army was most imperfectly supplied. The boots that had been sent were all, he understood, too small, and were consequently useless. They were wanted to wear over the men's ordinary shoes, and they ought to have been made large in proportion. He wished to know whether, in the camp equipage, tents were included. Last year he had several times called attention to the state of the tents when the expedition was going out, and he observed particularly that at that time they had no lining. He had not yet heard whether that want had been supplied. He
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also wished to inquire why it was that the 90th, 46th, and 63rd Regiments, which had been sent out late in the year, had not been supplied with warm clothing. It was afterwards sent, but many of them never received it; the consequence was a great mortality among the men when put to work in the trenches. The 63rd Regiment was reduced to two-thirds of its number. This loss, he considered, was entirely attributable to the neglect of the Government. The Ordnance, it was true, had supplied the clothing as fast as they got the order; but the blame rested on some other department of the Government. To them it was owing that half an army had perished. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Monsell) had referred to the Committee which sat last year on the manufacture of small arms; but it should be remembered that that Committee had none of the information before them respecting the manufacture of arms in America, which the hon. Gentleman had since received. He (Colonel Dunne) and the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz) had gone to Mr. Colt's manufactory and examined Mr. Colt; and they found that none of the pieces manufactured by him would fit without being filed for the purpose. If the Government had now got better information from America, he hoped the proposed manufacture would succeed as well as they anticipated. The hon. Gentleman had given a satisfactory account of the improved and cheaper mode of making shells. There had been a very prevalent idea, however, that the mortar shells at Sebastopol had not burst as they ought to have done. He hoped that this was not to be the general result of the cheapness to which the hon. Gentleman had referred. He believed that at this moment there were some 30,000 stand of arms locked up in the different barracks and storehouses in Ireland, while scarcely any of the Irish militia had arms or had been drilled. He hoped that the hon. Gentleman would report to the Minister for War the difficulty which was experienced in drilling the militia in Ireland in consequence of the want of arms. Within the last four years there had been 1,666,000 l. expended in small arms. That sum ought to provide 350,000 stand of arms, and it had all been expended since the new pattern musket had been invented. He trusted that some arrangements would be made for the speedy delivery of those muskets. He objected to contracts being still made for arms of the old patterns.

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Why should the Government contract for arms that were obsolete?
MR. MUNTZsaid, he should most certainly divide the Committee against the Vote for 40,000 l. to defray the expenses of the establishment at Enfield. It would be recollected that the Small Arms Committee had recommended some augmentation in the Enfield manufactory, but it was only to a limited extent; and that Mr. Whitworth, the eminent American engineer, on being asked what would be the expense of working the stocks at that establishment, stated it at 5,000 l. Well, last year the Board of Ordnance asked for a Vote of 25,000 l. on account of the establishment at Enfield; and a few nights ago the House had seen a Supplementary Estimate brought forward, demanding a further sum of 15,000 l.; making, with the previous estimate, a sum of 40,000 l. as the expenditure of a single year. And again, this year, a sum of 40,000 l. was asked for the manufactory at Enfield, making the enormous amount of 80,000 l. in all. Now, the Committee must bear in mind that last year the Board of Ordnance made good none of their promises; and in every important instance they were obliged to admit they had been deceived in their calculations. But, notwithstanding that, the parties they were now sending to America to transact their business were the very same persons by whom they had been deceived at home. Nor was the hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance very candid in his statements. He had not told the Committee why he had received so small a quantity of arms. Now the first reason was, that the Board of Ordnance was deficient in all sorts of knowledge; and the method of its constitution was but a sample of the way in which public business was transacted in this country. Men were placed to manage all sorts of boards without any sort of knowledge of their subject. The Government had received only 50,000 rifles during the year 1854, and he would show why. First of all, although the decision of the Small Arms Committee, of which he (Mr. Muntz) had been a Member, was given in favour of continuing the contract system for some time longer as early as April, the contracts were not given out until the 30th of June. But then, when were the patterns delivered to the manufacturers? Why, not until the 10th of August; while the materials—and he would beg the especial attention of the Committee to this fact—
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were not supplied until November. The contracts were for 90,000 rifles, and hon. Gentlemen might rest perfectly satisfied the whole of them would have been completed before this if the patterns had been given out in time. Again, with regard to the sighting of the guns. Although that was a point upon which the most precise instructions should be given, all was left in doubt and uncertainty. But then, when the guns were finished, they could not be used until the bayonets were ready; and how had the Board of Ordnance endeavoured to supply them? Why, first they tried to get them at 5s. 6d. a piece, although they were told it would be quite impossible to manufacture them of the description required at that price. Still they managed to make a few contracts with some second-rate workmen at that rate; but afterwards, finding by experience that it was impossible to get the whole of the contracts taken up at 5s. 6d., the Board of Ordnance consented to raise the price to 7s. 6d., and thus they managed to disturb the state of trade most injuriously. At the present moment the delivery of rifles from Birmingham amounted to 1,600 per week, and in a little time that quantity, he had every reason to believe, would be doubled, provided always that the manufacturers were only dealt with in a fair and tradesmanlike way. Let the Government get some man of business—some one who understood the manufacture of small arms—to manage matters for them. He had gone down himself to inspect the establishment at Enfield, and he could safely say it was a most excellent one; but yet, last year, there actually was a proposal to remove the establishment to Woolwich, and thereby swamp the whole of this vast outlay. Some time ago it had been proposed that a very distinguished townsman of his, Mr. Westley Richards, should superintend, on the part of the Board of Ordnance, all matters relating to the supply of small arms. He believed, however, that some paltry question as to the amount of remuneration to be offered that gentleman stood in the way of the arrangement being carried out, although Mr. Richards could have saved the country over and over again the amount of his salary. He would only say, that if the Government expected to have a large amount of small arms supplied by the manufacturers of this country, they must alter their mode of dealing with those gentlemen. He should divide the

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Committee against this Vote, as he felt unable to sanction the principle of an outlay of money, made without consulting anybody, and without knowing whether they were right or wrong. He considered the manufacture of carcass shells, as proposed now to be conducted, one of the grossest jobs ever known. In the end, the recommendations of the Small Arms Committee would be found far more valuable, and far cheaper, than those of any lot of scheming engineers.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That a sum, not exceeding 1,387,961 l., be granted to Her Majesty, for defraying the Charge which will probably be incurred to the 31st day of March 1855, on account of Barrack Supplies, &c., Wages, and Ordnance Stores, &c."
SIR JOSEPH PAXTONsaid, that after the experimental camp at Chobham had been established, it had been decided that it would be advisable for the Government to have at their disposal some large space for the purpose of exercising and encamping large bodies of troops, and, in consequence of that decision, a very excellent piece of land had been purchased for that purpose at Aldershot, a neighbourhood easy of access by two railways and a canal. They had heard for a considerable time that large barracks were to be erected there for the accommodation of troops which were to be ready for a large encampment in the spring. He found, however, that no steps whatever had been taken in the matter, that not even a tender was sent out before the 22nd of January, and then a tender was sent out for the erection of huts capable of accommodating 20,000 men, which huts were to be completed by the 15th of March. It struck him at the time that it was somewhat extraordinary that the Ordnance should allow so short a period as six weeks for erection of those huts, and he therefore entered into a calculation as to the amount of labour and material necessary for their erection. He found from that calculation that, from the number of trains required each day to carry the necessary materials, it would be impossible between the time the tender was accepted and the time fixed for the completion of the contract to supply those materials on the spot. He found also from the specification that the timber was to be fir from Motel, Riga, and Dantsic. More than three-fourths of the material used was to be yellow Christiana deal, and it would be found, on inquiry of any merchant or contractor, that there was
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not enough wood of this description in Great Britain to erect one-half of the huts required. It was utterly impossible that the huts proposed to be erected could be completed in six weeks without a very large additional expenditure beyond the estimate. About a fortnight after the 22nd of January the Ordnance Office issued another tender for bricks and concrete to form the foundations of these huts, so that only a month was allowed for laying the foundations and completing the erection. It was next to an impossibility, therefore, that the buildings could be finished within such a period, but if the huts were completed by the 15th of March he would willingly admit that it would be one of the most wonderful things ever accomplished in this country. It was not until the 22nd of January that the Ordnance issued notice for tenders for the erection of permanent barracks. The conditions of tender were, he believed, that 9,000 l. or 10,000 l. a month should be spent upon these barracks, as he supposed, until they were finished. He found, however, that no sort of preparation had been made upon the ground to enable the contractors to commence their work. Had the Ordnance issued contracts last summer for making 20,000,000 bricks, and laid down a branch railway to one of the lines in the neighbourhood, he did not think it would have been necessary to provide one-half of the huts which were now to be erected at so large a cost. The consequence of this was, that they must pay a very considerable sum, which it would otherwise have been unnecessary to expend, in consequence of the precipitate manner in which the operation was conducted. He believed the best plan would be for the Ordnance and all the Government departments where the application of materials was concerned, to do as little as they could avoid out of their own offices. He had no doubt, if plans and estimates had been obtained by tender last year for erecting these barracks, that not only would there have been a considerable saving of money, but that the barracks would by this time have been ready for the occupation of the soldiers. He had heard it stated, indeed, that the reason why Messrs. Fox, Henderson, and Co. had carried out so successfully the various works they had undertaken was because, when the plan was laid down. they would not allow any one to interfere with them. With regard to the proposed manufactory of small arms at Enfield, he

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considered that it was a very bad principle either for individuals or companies to attempt to manufacture everything they wanted for themselves, unless they were certain the demand for the articles would be regular. He could not conceive that this country would always be at war, and, consequently, he thought it would be very impolitic on the part of the Government to have large establishments for the manufacture of materials which were needed in time of war, but which would not be required in a time of peace. Such a system would have a bad effect, with respect to small arms, upon private manufacture, especially in Birmingham. If the Government established a factory at Enfield, and consequently discouraged private manufactures, where would be the means of obtaining an additional supply of arms during a time of war if any sudden pressure occurred which the Government might be unable to meet from their own resources? He thought the preferable course would be to employ such men as Mr. Whitworth to ascertain the best mode of manufacturing small arms, and then, giving such information to the manufacturers, to leave them to perform the work.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, that he had been a member of the Committee on small arms last year, before whom it was stated that the price of 3l. for a rifle was too high, and that such arms could be manufactured for a much less amount. The Committee were told that, if a little ornamental decoration, which was perfectly useless, was dispensed with, rifles quite as good as those now made could be produced at a saving of at least 15 s. upon each rifle. The Government, however, would not give way on the point, and reduce the price by dispensing with unnecessary ornament. They said they must have rifles of their own manufacture, and that they could be made by machinery. When the Government were asked for an example of the manufacture of rifles or muskets by machinery, they said, "The Russians have such machinery already. They have got a far better musket than you have. They have the machinery, and you have not advanced in this respect so far as they have done." This statement occasioned some surprise, but he thought the actions in the Crimea had shown that our rifles were at least not inferior to those of the Russians. He certainly considered that, when an order was given for any description of arms, a pattern ought to be issued. If a gentleman
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gave an order for a quantity of ironmongery, would he not give out a pattern of what he required, even down to a poker? The Government, however, did not issue any patterns for arms. It had been insisted upon in the Committee that every contract ought to bear date from the issue of the pattern, but the returns which had been furnished gave no account of the date when the patterns were given out. The Government complained that the contracts were not completed, but how could they be completed when no patterns were issued to the manufacturers? The Committee was now asked to grant 40,000 l. to the Board of Ordnance for the establishment of a manufactory of small arms at Enfield, but they were told that the arrangements of the existing Board of Ordnance had been so unsatisfactory that they were not to manage these matters for the future. They did not know, therefore, to whom they were going to intrust the expenditure of this large sum of money. It had been proposed last year that the House should grant some 25,000 l. or 30,000 l. to try the plan of establishing a manufactory, and to see how it answered. Government promised last year that if they got the money they would not only have the factory established, but the rifles produced; and he now wished to know if the Government works were so far advanced that some portion of the firearms was ready, or were hon. Members to be called upon to vote another 40,000 l. in the dark? They were asked to place this sum in the hands of the Board of Ordnance, and at the same time they were not told who was at the head of that Board. As men of business, they ought not to be called upon to vote money until they knew to what sort of establishment it was to be given. For his own part, he believed they would obtain the weapons much more rapidly by dealing with the trade in a fair manner. He did not think they had dealt fairly by the trade, but on the contrary, he thought the speech of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz) plainly showed that the Government had not treated the trade in a business-like manner. If he were desirous of giving an instance of the mismanagement of a public department, he could not adduce a more striking case than that of the Board of Ordnance. With respect to the proposed camp at Aldershot, he observed that no less a sum than 375,000 l. was to be expended for barracks there during the present year. Now, he thought it was to

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be a sort of encampment, and that soldiers were there to be prepared for actual service; but he was afraid the men were to be so luxuriously housed, that they would be rendered totally unfit for real warfare. Did they mean to stable the horses in the same way as in cavalry barracks, where the animals were unfitted for work in the field? For military operations he doubted whether that mode was a wise one. When he looked at the large sum of 375,000 l., he was curious to know whether the Government had asked Sir Charles Barry to build the barracks at Aldershot. Again, the Committee was asked to vote a sum of 60,000 l. for barracks at Dover. Who was going to look after their erection? No private individual would dream of commencing to build a house at the very moment he had dismissed his clerk of the works. Yet that was the very thing which the Government now proposed to do. They had got rid of the Board of Ordnance, and yet they came down and asked the Committee to vote 60,000 l. for the erection of barracks at Dover, which, he presumed, had nothing to do with the war with Russia. Again, the Government asked for a considerable sum for the defence of commercial harbours—12,000 l. for Liverpool and 10,000 l. for the Humber. Now, that measure might be necessary; it was possible that our fleets could not defend our coasts from the Russians; but he did not think it would be wise in the Committee to vote so large a sum of money until they knew something of the establishment under which it was to be expended. He had heard no reason whatever for departing from the principle laid down last year with regard to the establishment at Enfield, and unless the Government could give them one, he should be disposed to reduce the vote by a sum of 40,000 l.
MR. G. DUNDASsaid, he was surprised at the hostility evinced by several hon. Members to the manufactory at Enfield for making small arms by self-acting machinery, under the surveillance of the Government. Last year, when there was not such a demand for arms as there was now, objections might fairly enough have been raised to that establishment; but he must confess that he was at a loss to understand the opposition to it in the present emergency, unless, indeed, it was to be attributed to a desire on the part of hon. Gentlemen who represented manufacturing districts to support the interests of their constituents. The question before the
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Committee was, whether small arms should be made by hand, in the old-fashioned way, or by means of machinery. It had been said by the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz) that the evidence taken before the Committee last year went to show that the Government were entirely wrong in their views. Now that he considered was quite a matter of opinion. He thought the Government proved their case most completely by the evidence of scientific men, all of whom concurred in assuring the Committee that it was most desirable that self-acting machinery should be adopted wherever it could be employed, so as to make the Government independent of the caprices of workmen and manufacturers. Twelve years ago he visited a manufactory of small arms at Springfield, in America, and he never was more pleased with anything than with that. Every part of a musket was there made by self-acting machinery, and the persons employed were comparatively unskilled; in fact, the establishment altogether bore a striking resemblance to that of Colonel Colt, not far from where he was now speaking. He trusted the Committee would adopt the suggestion that had been made by the clerk of the Ordnance, and not go to a division on the Vote.
MR. LAYARDsaid, the Committee had heard in the course of the discussion several pleasing instances of the neglect, mismanagement, and ignorance of the Government departments. The observations of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz) and of the hon. Member for Coventry (Sir J. Paxton) could not fail to make some impression on hon. Members. These exposures were coming to be too frequent; and, what was very curious, they never heard of any person being punished on account of these things. There was one subject upon which he would like to have some explanation from the clerk of the Ordnance—he meant with respect to the fusees. He could bear witness to the fact, that the fusees issued during the early part of the siege of Sebastopol were so disgracefully bad, that out of every ten shells thrown, no more than three or four burst at all. He believed a Report was made to the head of the department upon the subject, representing that gross negligence had been shown in the construction of the shells, and he should like to know whether that Report, drawn up in the middle of last October, had been sent to this country, and whether in consequence

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any steps had been taken to investigate the case, and punish the guilty parties, whoever they might be? There was another question which he should also like to put to the hon. Gentleman. He observed in the Estimates a sum of 50,000 l. for clothing, accoutrements, and knapsacks to the foreign legion. Now he should like to know where that foreign legion was? They had heard a good deal of it; the Bill for its embodiment was pressed upon them in a very hasty manner at the end of last year; but up to the present day he did not know where this mythical legion was, of what it was composed—whether of Austrians, or Germans, or Spaniards, or Dutchmen—or why they were asked to vote 50,000 l. to dress these men of straw. Supposing, however, this foreign legion had been collected, had they been consulted with regard to their clothing, or was the Government going to provide for them trousers which were too short, and shoes which were too small—in fact, all that precious collection of dress sent out to our unfortunate troops in the Crimea? Then, again, with regard to the knapsacks. He had made some inquiries upon that subject while in the Crimea, and universal testimony was borne to the great superiority of the French knapsack over those supplied to the English army, which were heavier than those of our allies, and more galling to the soldier. Now, it would, he thought, be only fair to the Members of the foreign legion, wherever that might be, that they should be consulted as to the kind of knapsack and of accoutrements with which they were to be furnished. He wished also to touch upon another point. There was a large sum in the Estimates for the engineering department. Now he did not intend to depreciate the ability of our engineers, but he thought the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Monsell) was, no doubt, aware that, whatever the actual execution of that work might have been, the theoretical engineering work of the English army in the Crimea was not very creditable, and that not a single map of our siege operations before Sebastopol had been sent to this country, nor did he believe that (until lately, at all events) any such snap was prepared by the officer in command of that department. Such a state of things, he believed, certainly did exist as lately as the end of the month of December, and he repeated that it was not creditable to this country. An hon. and gallant Member had referred to the proposed hospital at
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Smyrna. Now it was stated by a Member of the Government on a previous occasion that this hospital was merely intended for winter and not for summer. But the winter was almost passed, and summer was rapidly approaching in that country, and it was only to-day he read in the public papers that nurses and attendants were sent out to the Smyrna hospital. Now Smyrna was a very unhealthy place in summer. There was not a single English family resident in it who did not leave it during summer. Surely we had lost life enough already, and ought not to throw more away in this wanton manner. He did entreat the Government not to go on in this way any longer. The country was too excited with its losses to tolerate such conduct. Why, the hospital at Smyrna was built in the corner of a bog, at the lowest and worst part of the town, and in a few weeks the place would be afflicted with gastric fever, which always raged there in summer. He also desired to call the attention of the Government to the state of Balaklava. That harbour was a hole, surrounded by lofty mountains, and when the warm weather came they would have a plague breaking out at Balaklava, and perhaps carrying off every man there. He did entreat the Government to reflect upon that subject. Another subject to which he would refer was the Turkish contingent, which was to consist, as they had heard, of 20,000 men, to be commanded by English officers. Now, he knew nothing of the officer appointed to the chief command of that contingent, except that he was related to a noble Lord in the other House, but he saw that upon his staff already appointed was a relation of the noble Lord at the head of the War Department. General Vivian might be a very able man, but he was afraid that all the other qualifications he might possess were not sufficient to overcome his want of knowledge of the country and of the character of the troops he would have to command. He (Mr. Layard) did not think this Turkish contingent would answer. If the Government had sent out a sum of money to enable Omer Pasha to feed and support his men some months ago, they might have done some good; but he did not think that English officers alone would succeed in such a service. The Turks made admirable soldiers, and he was glad to see that Major Nasmyth, at Edinburgh, the other day, bore ample testimony to their bravery; but he did not believe that

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such a body as that now proposed, commanded by an English officer, ignorant of the country and ignorant of his men, would answer the expectations formed of it.
MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that he had served on the Committee last year to consider the supply of small arms; the appointment of that Committee was the result of the proposal of the Government to found an arms factory, on the plea that they could not procure arms from the trade. The hon. Member who had spoken last but one (Mr. Dundas) had been a Member of that Committee; he heard the evidence, which decided the votes of the majority of that Committee against the proposal of the Government, who had sanctioned the appointment of that Committee; but the hon. Member had twelve years before seen the arms factory erected by the Government of the United States at Springfield, and therefore he could not believe that arms could be procured elsewhere than from a Government arms factory. He was an illustration of the fact, that there are some men who cannot learn. It was proved before that Committee that the arms trade of England had not only supplied the Government of this country, when fairly treated, but had at different times supplied large quantities of arms to the French, to the Spanish, to the Portuguese, to the Peruvian Government; in short, at different times, they had supplied large quantities of arms to the Governments of almost every country, and constantly supplied the whole quantity of arms required for our Indian army; and yet the Government departments wanted to persuade the House that the arms trade of England could not supply the English army, although a committee of the United States' House of Representatives had, in their report on the application for a renewal of Colonel Colt's patent, termed England the heart of the arms trade of the world. It had required some contrivance to establish even a seeming ground to so untenable a proposition; so Mr. Lovell, who had been inspector of small arms for the Ordnance for some years, had during the years 1851–2–3 established such stringent regulations for viewing the materials for arms, sent in by the trade, that one of the Government viewers, in his evidence, declared that it was impossible for the trade to supply materials for 25,000 arms at the price given by the Ordnance subject to those regulations, and that he had been compelled to reject quantities of serviceable materials. Even this,
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coupled with the fact that the expenditure for small arms had been reduced from the average of 135,000 l. a year, which had prevailed during the previous eight years, to 62,000 l., as the average of the three years 1851, 1852, 1853, had failed completely to prevent the supply being furnished by the trade; so Mr. Lovell compelled the Government workmen to put the sights on the first 20,000 Minié muskets ordered by the Government crooked, and, though warned of the fact, placed those arms thus mutilated in the hands of the Guards, by way of the illustration of the injustice at that time perpetrated by rejecting good materials. He would mention a fact; Mr. Lovell was appointed one of the judges for the Great Exhibition in 1851; a manufacturer of musket locks sent a lock for exhibition which had been rejected by the Government viewers, and Mr. Lovell, as judge, gave a first-class prize for the very lock which had been rejected under his own directions as unfit for the use of the army. By such unworthy means the arms trade had no doubt been injured and discouraged; and Sir Thomas Hastings, on the part of the Board of Ordnance, declared in his evidence that the trade could not be relied upon to produce 25,000 arms in the year for the use of the army. But what was the fact? Notwithstanding the mismanagement and misconduct of the officials of the Ordnance, notwithstanding the delay of orders, and of the delivery of patterns, which the hon. Member for Birmingham had described, the arms trade had furnished from 40,000 to 50,000 arms in the last year, almost all of the Minié construction, or nearly double the quantity Sir Thomas Hastings had stated as the maximum of their production. What happened last year? The Government came down to ask a vote of 100,000 l. for an enormous Government Arms Factory, at the end of February. The House appointed the Small Arms Committee, that commenced their inquiry on the 2nd March. Upon the 7th April that Committee came to a Resolution that a factory upon a small scale should be adopted by the Government, but that the system of obtaining supplies of arms by contract from the trade should be continued. Well, if there was a real pressure for arms they ought to have sent an order to Birmingham. But they did not send such order. The Committee finally reported on the 12th of May. But no order was sent down by the Government for any such quantity of materials

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for arms as would enable the trade to cast aside their private orders and apply their whole resources to the service of the country till the 22nd of June. The noble Lord the Member for Totness (Lord Seymour) had very properly stated that an order for arms without patterns was merely waste paper. The manufacturers were required to supply an article made to one-thirty-thousandth part of an inch in accuracy. It was therefore impossible for them to produce such a weapon without a pattern. How was it possible for a man to work within one-thirty-thousandth part of an inch from a pattern that he had never seen? On the 21st of February, 1854, the Board of Ordnance entered into a contract for setting up—that was, putting together— 20,000 muskets of the new pattern, which, compared with the quantity required, and the capabilities of the trade, was a small quantity; but when they did that they omitted to order the sights, so that literally they ordered the muskets to be set up without the sights; the pattern for the sights was not furnished till the middle of March. The first order for locks for the large order for 90,000 arms, which the Government were at last induced to give, was issued on the 30th of June, but the patterns were not delivered till two months later; the sights were ordered on the 30th of June, but the patterns were not delivered till the 11th of August; the rammers were ordered on the 30th of June, but the patterns were not delivered till the month of October. An order was issued for 30,000 bayonets on the 7th of August, and it was a part of the contract that they should be delivered on the 1st of September, but the pattern was not supplied the contractors till within a day or two of the date for delivery of the article. The Ordnance now came down to the House, and declared that they could not get their orders executed. Why, it was morally impossible that they could be; and he contended that the country owed a debt of gratitude to the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz), for having day after day devoted himself to obviating the difficulties which the mismanagement of the Ordnance had created. He believed, that with fair play, Birmingham, instead of having produced from 40,000 to 50,000 small arms within the year, would have produced 100,0000. He said a year; but the dates of delivery of the patterns showed that it was within the last six months that most of the work could be
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done, for the manufacturers could not get on with the work until they had the patterns, and these they had had only six months. It had been stated in the public press in November that the Birmingham manufacturers were greatly deficient in meeting the exigencies of the state. Well a meeting of the manufacturers was called, and it was found, that, though it was the period of the year when the days were the shortest, there was not a single gas-light in any of the Government manufactories or view rooms, and the men were working only seven hours a day, and that the staff was so deficient that there were 10,000 musket barrels lying in the view-rooms uninspected, and thousands of other materials. The Government now came down to the House of Commons and asked it to vote 40,000 l. for Enfield, 15,000 l. postponed from before Christmas, in addition to 25,000 l. in 1854. In other words they were asking the Committee to vote precisely what it refused them last year, on the ground that the trade had not supplied what their own negligence had prevented. The Small Arms Committee had reported that the system adopted towards the trade was a faulty one, and prevented their procuring the necessary supply of arms. The system, however, still remained unchanged. The Government relied upon Mr. Whitworth as a great authority on all mechanical subjects. What did Mr. Whitworth say in his evidence with regard to the system of having a separate contract for each part of the musket, and another for setting the parts together? Why, that it was simply absurd; contrary to mercantile principles, and the development of the arms trade, and altogether incompatible with success. Previous to October last there were only four contractors employed to set up the arms—that was, to put the locks, barrels, and stocks together, and make them into arms. The Government being at last persuaded that there were not sufficient contractors employed to do the work, appointed thirteen contractors more; and the seventeen together employed the whole of the labour of Birmingham. But in January they added another contractor. Of course he was a gun-maker; it would not be supposed that they would set anybody but a gun-maker to do the work! Would it be believed the Government actually gave the contract to make guns to a sword-maker who had not a workman in his employ fitted for, or instructed in, gun-making, and who, as

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the only thing he could do under the circumstances, went and bribed away the workmen from other contractors? Surely an occurrence of this nature was of itself almost sufficient to stop the work. There, then, was another instance of Government management. He might go on at yet greater length, detailing case after case, illustrative of the utter want of business management, and the total neglect of the merest commercial principles, which marked the transactions of the Government with the gun trade. Under the present system this must be the result. Let the Committee for a moment consider what that system is. They had. first, the Small Arms Committee at the Horse Guards to decide upon the pattern for the arms. These Gentlemen were, doubtless, very good soldiers and excellent officers, but not one of them knew how to make a gun more than he knew how to make his own watch. Yet to such men as these they left the question of what patterns the arms should be. They came to their decisions without possessing any experience or knowledge as to whether the arms could be produced according to their pattern, at a cost that would be paid for a weapon to be placed in the hands of the soldier. The next process was this—the Small Arms Committee, having decided on the pattern, sent it to the Ordnance; but amongst the officers of the Ordnance there was not a man who knew aught about gun-making; but they sent for the inspector of small arms. Well, it appeared that a former inspector had had the sights of 20,000 muskets put on crooked; that he had wilfully put those crooked-sighted muskets into the hands of soldiers destined for the Crimea, and that, if it had not been for the trade of Birmingham warning the Guards, they would have been sent out to the East with these mutilated arms. This showed how little the Ordnance could control their subordinate—the Inspector of Small Arms. True, they had now a respectable inspector of small arms in Mr. Gunner, but he was deficient in mercantile, though not in mechanical, knowledge; and while the muskets and materials for muskets came in at the rate of 1,600 per week —the rate at which they were at present produced—they could not expect him to be always in his place as a referee between the manufacturers and the viewers, and at the same time to be travelling throughout the districts where the construction of the several parts of the musket was carried on, for the purpose of seeing that the arti-
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cles produced were of such a quality that they would eventually form a good musket, and were in course of production in such relative quantities that they would be ready for "setting up," that is, to be made into muskets at the time required. Why, it was physically impossible for any man to do both these things. What they wanted, therefore, was a well-qualified Commissioner to watch the progress of the trade, and to see that the several parts of the musket were produced by the time they were required. They had no officer of the kind, and the consequence was the creation of great confusion; but there was no blame to be attributed to the trade, who had produced within the year, and in the face of the greatest difficulties, nearly double the quantity of muskets that Sir Thomas Hastings had assigned as the maximum of production. If they only employed a business man to regulate the trade, as every commercial firm and as every foreign Government did, he (Mr. Newdegate) was convinced that we had in England available now, not six months hence, when it was said the proposed factory would be open, the power of producing arms as good as any manufactory that the Government could establish. It was absurd to suppose, however, that the trade could enter into large engagements so long as they knew they were in danger of being superseded. And the most effectual way of stopping the power of production was for the Government to commence a factory, by which means they would give an assurance to the trade that they would not get a return for the capital it had invested in machinery. The hon. Member for Linlithgowshire (Mr. G. Dundas) had spoken to-night as if there were no machinery employed by the trade. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that the most perfect machinery in the world was used in Birmingham for the manufacture of barrels—that machinery was used for bayonets and locks; in short, of every part of a rifle except the stock; and, according to the showing of Mr. Anderson, who recommended the Government factory, the form of the stock upon which the Government had insisted was such that it could not be made by machinery. He had heard it stated that Government had determined that, not being able to get a sufficient supply of small arms in England, they would get it from abroad—not insisting, however, upon the musket being so highly finished as it was in this country. Now, if the Government had been content

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with an efficient arm—not enhanced in price, and delayed in production, by unnecessary "finish," or fashion, but serviceable, strong, well-bored, and with a good lock—they might have had double the quantity they were now receiving from the English trade. But they confined the trade to an expensive pattern, threw every impediment in their way that stupidity and want of business habits could suggest, and then complained that the trade of England could not supply the wants of the State. The plan embodied in this Vote was not, he was satisfied, intended to meet the emergency of the war in which we were now engaged. Nothing of the sort. If the Government factory had been commenced in March, 1854, according to Mr. Nasmyth, it would not have produced a musket till July or August, 1855. The fact was, that the Government had determined on taking the supply of arms from the trade of England, he knew not why, perhaps because they were actuated by a professional jealousy. The Small Arms Committee at the Ordnance Office would not admit the fact that gun-makers could make guns better than they themselves could. They were, therefore, determined to have it in their own hands, so that they would not be interfered with by practical men. They were jealous of suggestions; excluded them whenever they could; and, he believed, that they intended to exclude the intrusion of civilians by putting some artillery officers at the head of the factory, that they might study a trade to which they had never been apprenticed; no doubt they would bribe the best hands they could get; then they would come down to the House of Commons and exclaim, "See what an economical and efficient arrangement we have made!" By using the resources lavishly of the State they might no doubt supersede the trade. Thus, while they delayed the production of arms, they would manage to deprive the country of that great resource—that vast power of expansive production—which supporting her trade had hitherto afforded her, and which had not failed her in the present emergency.
MR. MONSELLsaid, he had never heard, since he had had the honour of a seat in the House of Commons, a statement which he could declare of his own knowledge to have been more entirely unfounded and erroneous than the one just made by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire; and this he thought he could
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prove to the satisfaction of the Committee. In the first place, the Board of Ordnance was accused of having insisted on a most elaborately finished gun, with a great many artistic devices about it which were utterly useless. No one attached more weight to the authority of Mr. Westley Richards than the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. When the Committee of which the hon. Gentleman was a Member had closed its inquiries, the Board of Ordnance asked Mr. Westley Richards what alterations he would recommend in the musket. Mr. Westley Richards most kindly devoted himself to the consideration of the subject, and suggested certain alterations, every one of which were adopted by the Board of Ordnance, and that was the answer to the noble Lord's (Lord Seymour's) charge of delay with regard to the pattern, for how was it possible to make changes without some little time being bestowed in considering what changes were desirable? Upon Mr. Richards's recommendation a pattern was adopted, and by that pattern the guns were now made. [Mr. NEWDEGATE: "That was in 1853."] That remark reminded him that the hon. Gentleman had indulged in denunciations of past times, and, for the purpose of censuring the Board of Ordnance, had raked up the ashes of Mr. Lovell, who died long since. But these charges against the Board of Ordnance could not be sustained. In the presence of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Scholefield) two contractors called at the Ordnance Office to make some complaint with reference to improving the stock of one of the guns. The representations they made were immediately attended to. He then asked the two gentlemen—one of them was the Chairman of the Association of Gunmakers of Birmingham —whether there was anything else with which the trade of Birmingham found fault? and those gentlemen replied that the Government was doing everything in the world that was right with respect to the Birmingham makers. Notwithstanding that, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Newdegate) endeavoured to raise a cry against the Government by denouncing these dealings with the Birmingham trade, and attempted to induce the Committee to reject a measure of the highest importance to the country. Now, what were the arguments in favour of a factory? Three gentlemen—Colonel Burn, assistant-inspector of artillery; Captain Ward, who had paid great attention to the subject of small arms;

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and Mr. Anderson, one of the most eminent mechanists in the country—proceeded to America, investigated most closely the American gunmaking trade, saw all that was done in the American factories, and made an elaborate Report, in which they assured the Government they could make these muskets as perfect as the Minié, at a cost not exceeding half that which the Government was paying for them, and now they were told that was an object of no importance, and which they ought not to secure. The hon. Gentleman talked of showing a good balance-sheet, as if he could not call for Returns, supposing any one were dishonest enough to present false accounts to Parliament. Those accounts, showing every single halfpenny expended, and the number of muskets made, would be presented at the end of every year, that the House might judge whether the factory ought to go on or not. The hon. Member for North Warwickshire had endeavoured to make it appear that there was an opposition between the Government factory and the gun trade of the country. But if the hon. Gentleman would reflect upon what was the number of arms required at home, abroad, and in the colonies, he would see at once that the gun trade of Birmingham need not be afraid in the least degree of having their orders stopped for many years to come. He did not think such an idea had entered the heads of the Birmingham gunmakers, for he had told them to make muskets as fast as they could, and the Government would take all they could produce. It had been said that the patterns for the arms had not been put into the hands of the gun-makers in proper time; but that could be a matter of comparatively small importance, provided the materials for those arms had been furnished in due course. Such had been the case, and the charge which the Government had brought against the gunmakers was, that materials having been placed in their hands in good time, they had not been sent out on the day appointed. But, passing over that subject, he should remind the Committee, in conclusion, that we had now, 26,000 l. worth of machinery— 17,000 l. worth having been procured in America, and 9,000 l. worth in this country. A contract had, in the month of December last, been made upon the part of the Government for a manufactory in which that machinery might be set up; and hon. Members did not hesitate to rise in that House to oppose a vote for such a manu-
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factory, thus doing their utmost to render completely useless the large amount of machinery which had been purchased. For his own part, he was of opinion that the proposed factory, if established, would be of considerable advantage to the artisans of Birmingham, inasmuch as it would furnish them with models of the various descriptions of machines which in the making of arms it was desirable to employ. He should, therefore, beg the Committee, by agreeing to the Vote, to enable the Government to place in the hands of our troops, in sufficient numbers, such weapons as those by which the victories of Alma and of Inkerman had been achieved.
MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had, in the course of his speech, stated that Mr. Westley Richards had entirely approved of every part of the present musket.
MR. MONSELL: What I said was, that the musket now being manufactured was being made in accordance with the pattern which Mr. Westley Richards recommended.
MR. NEWDEGATE: He wished to know if the sight, as at present arranged, had been recommended by Mr. Richards? He happened to know that such was not the case; and while upon that subject he would read to the Committee a paragraph which appeared in the Times newspaper of the 27th ultimo. The correspondent of that paper at the seat of war wrote as follows—
"It may be remembered that some time ago I called attention to the curious arrangement of sending down each sick man with his rifle and pouch filled with cartridges. The rifles are put into store, and the notion was that the sick man might return to use them. Alas, the expectation has been too often unfounded; and the muskets have been left to lie in damp till they are covered with thick rust. The rifles and muskets gathered up from the battle-field have been left frequently in the same condition. Just see the result. When the last battalion of the 71st regiment came here they were provided with 400 of these Minié Rifles from store; 400 of the men were left with the old firelock. On the morning of the first day after they landed the regiment was marched out to support the Rifles against the expected attack of the enemy on the heights. Their rifles were thick with rust, but they loaded them as usual. Yesterday, when they tried to fire off the charges, not one-half of the rifles went off. That would have been the case had the enemy come on, but it would not be so again, for now the arms are cleaned and fit for use. Surely they ought to be kept clean and fit for use in store? The men are not provided with apparatus for drawing the Minié ball; in order to clean the piece it must be discharged."
Now he should put it to the hon. Member

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whether Mr. Westley Richards, a gentleman who deserved well of the country, had not gone to the Ordnance and told the heads of that department that the wrenches for drawing the balls of the Minié musket would not answer the purpose; and whether they had not assured that Gentleman that those wrenches were perfectly efficient? "He should also wish to know whether the Ordnance Department had not now in their possession wrenches which Mr. Westley Richards had proposed, and by which the great inconveniences to which our army before Sebastopol was in that particular subjected, might be obviated?" He knew it to be the fact that the Ordnance Department had in these two and in other instances departed from the recommendation of Mr. Richards; and they, therefore, had no right to lay to the charge of that gentleman difficulties for which they alone must be held responsible. The hon. Gentleman had stated that the circumstance of the patterns not having been furnished to the gun-makers had nothing to do with the delay to be attributed to the setters-up in completing the arms. But the materials had not been furnished in proper time, and hence was it possible that that delay should not have taken place. "The supply of arms from Birmingham had diminished to 1,500 per month, in consequence of there being no materials for the setters-up to put together." The Government were, however, at present in receipt of that number of muskets; and if the trade were not impeded that number would increase to 2,600; but if the Government were to establish a great factory they would destroy the confidence of the traders and diminish the supplies. No trader would work except he expected to make a reasonable return, and if the Committee were to sanction the proposal of the Government they would be supporting their determination to supersede trade.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, the hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Board of Ordnance had undertaken to defend his department, which both that House and the Government had condemned. But he did not wish to say anything more on that subject, for the Board was now done away with. The hon. Gentleman had said that he did not wish to deprive the makers of the rifle which had won the battle of the Alma and of Inkerman of the advantage of still making them. But who did make then? Why, they were made at Birmingham. And yet the Government wished to have a factory
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of their own, and asked a Vote of the large sum of 80,000 l. that they might establish one. Therefore, so far as the fact went, all that the hon. Gentleman had said about the battle of the Alma and of Inkerman was a mere poetical notion. The hon. Gentleman had stated some reason why a pattern of the guns was not delivered. But it appeared that the Ordnance did not absolutely know when the pattern was delivered, and on that point the whole question turned. Was that the way to transact the business of so important a department? The Ordnance had treated the matter with neglect. What the Committee wanted to know was the price, and a Committee upstairs suggested that 30,000 l. should be expended to make the trial; that the best machinery should be got and the rifles produced. That was promised should be done in eighteen months; but after ten months, and when the money had been spent in machinery, they came before the House, and asked for more money to erect buildings. Such treatment was not fair, and to be told that unless 80,000 l. were granted the whole matter must be stopped was nothing less than the violation of an engagement. He did not look to the interests of Birmingham, but to the important question, whether it was desirable for Government to manufacture these arms. He doubted whether it was at the time, but had no objection to the trial. At present that trial remained to be made, and, although the hon. Gentleman stated the Ordnance could make them at less price, he thought, before large sums were voted for that purpose, the assertion ought to be proved.
MR. JOHN MACGREGORsaid, that while he was willing to vote with the most lavish generosity every sum of money actually necessary for bringing to a conclusion the present war, he thought a strict scrutiny should be made of the various items proposed. He had the greatest faith in the noble Lord at the head of the Ministry, but thought a most unfortunate selection of men had been made in the formation of the Ministry.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he had heard with great surprise and astonishment the opposition which had been made to this Vote. We were engaged in a war which, by universal consent, it required the greatest exertion to conduct with success. It was well known that owing to various circumstances we had for some years past suffered from a great deficiency

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in the supply of small arms for the army. A proposal was made for the establishment of a factory which would not probably at any early period enable the Ordnance to furnish the number required, but which would contribute to furnish our army with an excellent weapon, and which might probably in course of time render them independent of other sources of supply, or, at all events, enable them to command those sources on moderate and reasonable terms. Yet, at this very moment, when we required every exertion possible to furnish our army and militia with arms, when it was well known that in Ireland some regiments of militia were, he might almost say, doing duty with broomsticks for want of muskets to put into their hands—hon. Gentlemen got up, and, upon various pretences, endeavoured to prevent the country from having the advantage of the establishment which this Vote was intended to afford. Of all reasons on earth, the reason of his noble Friend behind him (Lord Seymour) seemed to him the weakest he could possibly imagine. He forsooth opposed the Vote because the Government was going to reorganise the Ordnance Department, to improve its organisation, and to make arrangements by which errors and delays which had occurred at former periods might be prevented. For that very reason, because the department was going to be made more efficient, and more capable of performing the public service with promptitude and accuracy, his noble Friend objected to the Vote which was now proposed. What would he have said if the contrary had been the case; if the Government had said that that department of which he complained was perfect and wanted no improvement; if they had announced to the Committee that they were not going to make any alteration or any improvement in the arrangement of the civil department? His noble Friend would, doubtless, then have turned upon them and said, "Then I refuse you the Vote. You won't improve your system; you won't make a better organisation of the executive departments which are to carry this service into practice, and therefore I refuse." Now, because they were going to do the very things which he had urged them to do, he made that a reason for refusing to the public the advantage of the establishment which they now asked the Committee to give them the means of providing. He (Lord Palmerston) did trust that the Committee would rise superior to
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these miserable quibbles. He trusted it would not allow itself to be made the victim of local interests, or of interests connected with particular places and particular branches of trade. We wanted to make use of all the sources of supply which we could possibly obtain. We wanted all that Birmingham could afford us. We had been obliged to have recourse to Liege to assist us in obtaining what we required. We had been compelled to go to the United States of America to procure an additional supply, and he did think that that House would not be performing the duty which it owed to the nation if it refused that which his hon. Friend the Clerk of the Ordnance now asked for the purpose of establishing that which would be only a very partial and experimental establishment for the supply of arms. Did his noble Friend (Lord Seymour) imagine that the 25,000 l. which was voted last year was enough to establish a manufactory of arms? It was only a sum upon account. No man could imagine that for 25,000 l. you could have erected an establishment which would have afforded you the means of ascertaining whether you could make arms at a cheaper rate than was charged by the private trade. He did hope that the statement of his hon. Friend would be sufficient to induce the Committee to accede to this Vote, and that the Government would not, at a time when it required every exertion to furnish our army, our militia, and our colonies with arms, be turned round and deprived of the means of supply which the establishment now proposed would afford.
MR. BAILLIEsaid, he wished to ask the hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance whether the contracts for forage for the horses in the East were made by the Ordnance or the Treasury? This would not be a question to be asked on ordinary occasions, but during the war things had not been done in the ordinary manner, and the Committee would not be surprised to hear that the horses were sent without forage, or the forage without horses. After the way in which the horses of the cavalry, artillery, and commissariat had been starved in the Crimea, and knowing that between 15,000 and 16,000 horses were to be sent out for the Commissariat, he thought he was justified in asking which department made the contracts for forage.
MR. MONSELLsaid, that the Ordnance did not, and he could not say which department did. The Treasury had made use of the Ordnance to furnish some oats.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, the Commissariat Department was responsible for the supply of forage.
MR. MUNTZsaid, he was astonished that the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) should say that he was influenced by local interest at the country's expense. No man was more anxious than he (Mr. Muntz) was to avoid being so influenced, and whenever the question was between local interests and that he always flung the former to the winds. He should move the reduction of the present Vote, because he was convinced that, by so doing, he would be serving the interests of the country. As a specimen of the way in which the Ordnance conducted itself in its relations with manufacturers at Birmingham, he would read to the Committee the following letters—
"Office of Ordnance, August 4, 1854.
"Gentlemen,—A report having been made to the Board of Ordnance that you have failed to make the deliveries of the undermentioned articles, due from you within the time specified on your contract—
"Date of Contract. "Articles,
"October 6, 1853, 0–411. "Bayonets.
"I am commanded to acquaint you therewith, and to desire you will immediately state why you have not fulfilled your contract; and I am further to inform you that the penalties attached thereto will be levied upon all the articles not delivered by the time limited.
"J. WOOD.
"Messrs. W. Deakin and Sons."
"Hazelwell Mills, near Birmingham,
"August 7, 1854.
"Sir,—We beg respectfully to inform you that our order for bayonets, dated the 6th of October, 1853, 0–411, was completed the 4th day of July last being within the time specified in our contract.
"WM. DEAKIN AND SONS."
"J. Wood, Esq."
Here then was a case in which parties were written to and reprimanded, although they had completed their contract a month before the time specified. The hon. Member concluded by moving, as an Amendment, that the Vote before the Committee should be reduced by 15,000 l.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 34; Noes 170: Majority 136.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Vote agreed to.
(2) 22,346, Number of Men (Ordnance).
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he must complain of the large expense to be incurred in the erection of barracks.
COLONEL KNOXsaid, he would suggest to the hon. Member for Lambeth that
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this Vote had nothing to do with bar racks.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, there was one very material point to which he would wish to call the attention of the Committee. He was very happy to hear that the Ordnance Department was to be transferred hereafter to that of the Secretary for War, as was also the Commissariat. By this arrangement an enormous saving might be effected. He observed there were ninety-one storekeepers' establishments, and fifty-four barrack establishments at home and abroad, making altogether 145 such establishments in connection with the Ordnance Department; and there were besides, in nearly all the same places, other establishments connected with the Army, with the Commissariat, and also with the Navy. Now, if the noble Lord would grant an inquiry he (Mr. Williams) would undertake to show that by uniting all those establishments a great saving might be made, and these departments more efficiently conducted. There was another remark he had to make: why had they voted 400,000 l. for a foreign force, and were now required to vote 90,000 l. more for clothing it, and another sum of 50,000 l. on behalf of it, when the noble Lord had stated that the raising of that foreign force had proved a failure? He observed an amount of upwards of 500,000 l. for fortifications, and he thought much of the immense sum—nearly 2,000,000 l.—which was charged for fortifications and barracks might be saved to the country, and should be saved at this time of pressure.
COLONEL GILPINsaid, he did not join in the hon. Member's objection to the cost of barracks, for if we had a large number of troops in the country they were better in barracks than anywhere else; but he would ask whether any arrangements had been made, since last year, for the better accommodation of married men in barracks? He called attention to this subject last year, and was then told it should receive full consideration, but he was sorry to see that the same disgraceful system still existed. He saw no reason why rooms should not be set apart for married people, and a provision made for enclosing such a space for each couple as was necessary for convenience and decency. He did hope that this subject would be attended to; he was sure the public would not object to any reasonable expense to remedy so great a grievance. We were attempting now to model cottages and lodging houses,

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and it should not be said that the barracks were the only dwellings in which common decency could not be observed.
CAPTAIN SCOBELLsaid that, in referring to the charge for hospitals, he had read that day in a newspaper some excellent suggestions about having floating hospitals. We knew that at Scutari and Balaklava the hospitals were crowded; and we had many large old ships, which might be sent out under jury masts, and conveyed by steamers, to become floating hospitals, with only men enough on board to keep them clean, and with a staff of nurses and surgeons. A ship could easily be ventilated when at anchor, and might be towed to another place when the patients became convalescent, to give them change of air.
MR. MASTERS SMITHsaid, he strongly advised that care should be taken for the better ventilation of hospitals; and recommended that the museum of anatomy and natural history at Fort Pitt should be better supported than it had been.
MR. OTWAYsaid, he thought it extraordinary that, when the Government were forming a new camp at Aldershot, they did not take advantage of it to instruct 10,000 soldiers in the building of their own huts—an art in which our men appeared to be very deficient.
COLONEL KNOXsaid, he would like to know where the hon. Member would get his 10,000 soldiers? Why, they were not in existence.
MR. MONSELLsaid, he thought the name of "huts" had rather misled the hon. Gentleman; those huts were in fact wooden barracks, which were so constructed that if they were taken proper care of they would last twenty years; and there was great want of larger accommodation for the army and militia, especially in Ireland, and also in this country; and unless it were provided, there was no possibility of getting rid of those inconveniences to which the hon. Member for Bedfordshire (Colonel Gilpin) had alluded, and which he agreed in considering most objectionable.
MR. OTWAYsaid, he did not see any reason why, although these huts were intended as permanent barracks, the 10,000 soldiers who would be encamped there should not have learned how to construct them. Were any hired carpenters or labourers of any other class employed for the purpose?
MR. MONSELLreplied, that labourers were so employed. As for the soldiers, most of them, being fresh recruits, were so
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much occupied in learning the goose step that they could not be employed in building their huts at present.
Vote agreed to; as was also the next Vote.
(3) 1,117,833 l. Ordnance Military Corps. Allowances and contingencies of ordnance corps.
(4) 1,406,883 l. Commissariat and Barrack Supplies.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that the sum specified for warm and waterproof clothing, in addition to the money already voted for that purpose, made up a very large amount.
COLONEL KNOXsaid, he did not approve of voting 90,000 l. for clothing the foreign legion, which existed only in the air at present, or in the imaginations of the Government. As for the great coats supplied to the army, there never was anything more infamous than their quality; nor was it to be surprised at, with the price paid for them, that they fell to pieces so soon. The cloth was the very worst kind of baize, and they were quite useless to the men. He wished to know if they had been surveyed before they were taken into store? If any gentleman in the Ordnance department had surveyed them, he ought to be dismissed; if not, the Ordnance had committed a great neglect. It was a most disgraceful fraud.
MR. MONSELLsaid, he took very much the same view of the unfitness of the great coats as the hon. and gallant Member for Marlow; they were not at all what they ought to have been. But the fact was, that it was thought desirable to get the lightest possible article, that the soldier should have the less weight to carry. He believed they had been properly surveyed, and were according to pattern; and there was, consequently, no ground to charge any one with fraud.
LORD WILLIAM GRAHAMsaid, what he had to complain of was, that the shell jackets served out to the militia in Scotland were without lining, to save a shilling a jacket; and wore out very soon, so that the militia recruits had the expense of lining them.
LORD ELCHOsaid, he wished to know if the great coats were waterproof? The very lightest material might now be made waterproof. He also wished to know if any provision was made for great coats similar to those hung up in the sentry-boxes in other countries. He had noticed that during the late severe weather the

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sentries appeared in their red coats, and put on their great coats when the weather changed for the better. He believed that the great coats were reserved for night duty, but he thought the better plan would be to have a great coat hung up in the sentry-box so that the sentinel might wear it when necessary.
MR. PERCYsaid, he hoped the attention of the Government would be directed not only to the quality of the clothing, but also to the manner in which it was made up. He believed that the sum paid for making a great coat was from 6d. to 10 d. only. He also regretted to see that the soldiers who had returned from the Crimea, wounded and sick, had not been supplied with new clothing.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, if it were intended to furnish great coats to the militia, he thought it would be better that Government should furnish them, as they did to the regular army, rather than the colonels of the regiment. He wished to know, also, whether the Master General of the Ordnance (Lord Raglan) was still receiving the salary attached to the office?
MR. E. BALLsaid, he was not a military man, but he thought it was a shame that British soldiers should be clothed in coats which cost only 6½d. to make, and which had been described as resembling a sieve through which the water could run. It was an abominable thing to vote such enormous sums of money for clothing our brave fellows in such a scandalous way.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he could bear testimony to the fact that, until recently, the cloth supplied to all the regiments, except a few favoured ones, was of the very worst description.
LORD ELCHOsaid, that it had been stated that the boots sent out to the Crimea were generally too small for the men. Some time ago on visiting a contractor's shop, he saw some boots, which he was told was going to the Crimea. On his remarking that they appeared to him too small, the answer given was that there were three sizes, and that those which he saw were the smallest. He observed, too, that these boots had no nails in them; and Gentlemen who were in the habit of walking much in the country would bear him out in the statement, that without nails in the boots or shoes it was impossible to walk comfortably. On his remarking in the shop that the boots in question had no nails, the contractor said to him, "The subject has been maturely considered. I
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can assure you that these boots have been sat upon by a Committee of general officers who have declared that when they served in Canada, the climate of which resembled that of the Crimea, they never wore nails in their boots." Probably it was so long since these gentlemen were in active service that they had forgotten whether their boots had nails or not.
MR. MILESsaid, there was another defect in the boots supplied besides the want of nails; namely, that they were so badly stitched and put together, that in a very short time the sole came away from the body of the boot. What he (Mr. Miles) rose for, however, was to seek for some information with regard to the clothing of foreign regiments. There were items in the Estimates which had special reference to a foreign legion, and as he was informed that not a man had been enrolled under the Bill on that subject, he wished to know whether the Turkish contingent was to be regarded as the foreign legion. At present the foreign legion was purely imaginary, which he trusted that the Turkish contingent was not. The Committee could not be expected to vote 90,000 l. for the clothing of a force which did not exist.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, the Vote was proposed in the expectation that the imaginary force would become a real one. Of course if it did not become so, no money would be spent. The Turkish contingent was a different matter altogether.
MR. MONSELLsaid, for the circumstance of the boots being without nails he was not at all responsible, as that article was not supplied by the Ordnance, but by the army clothier.
Vote agreed to.
(5) 303,149 l., Establishments at Home and Abroad.
SIR JAMES ANDERSONsaid, he wished to know why the barrack establishments at home were not made more available for the lodging of the militia. A few days ago the Stirlingshire militia were billeted on the inhabitants, although there were very few troops in Stirling Castle; and much dissatisfaction was felt on the subject in the neighbourhood.
MR. COWANsaid, the feeling described by the hon Member for Stirling prevailed among his own constituents; the evil being increased by the fact that, in Scotland, the militia were billeted on the inhabitants generally.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he concurred with his hon. Friends, that it was highly desirable that, wherever it was possible, the militia should be in barracks. When they were called out, it was intended that they should be so quartered; and that was one reason why they were not called out earlier. At first the Government called out only such a proportion of the militia as they thought could be lodged in barracks.
Vote agreed to; as was also the next Vote.
(6) 368,872 l. Wages.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That a sum, not exceeding 2,792,348 l., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of Ordnance Stores for Land and Sea Service, which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1856."
MR. MUNTZsaid, he should move as an amendment that the vote be reduced by 40,000 l., being the item for the smallarm factory at Enfield.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he would recommend the hon. Gentleman, after the expression of opinion upon the 15,000 l. Vote, not to divide the Committee; but he must complain that the Government had not had the courtesy to state what progress had been made with the building, and when it was likely that some arms would be produced.
MR. MONSELLsaid, that he hoped to be able to commence the manufacture about the beginning of July. A great portion of the American machinery had already arrived, and the building would soon be completed.
MR. H. HERBERTsaid, he wished to call attention to the fact that the Irish Militia were without arms, and in corroboration of the fact he would state a circumstance which had occurred in his own county. Not having received any printed forms, his regiment had sent a requisition for arms to the Quarter Master General in Dublin, in manuscript. That officer sent it back to the general of the district, stating that the requisition ought to have gone through him (the general of the district), and that he could take no notice of any that was not printed. The general of the district, therefore, transmitted it to him (Mr. Herbert). He had to send to London for a printed requisition to apply for arms; and the consequence was that two months had passed by, and the regiment had not got a single musket. In the mean time the general of the district had ordered his
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regiment to supply men for sentry duty, and they were actually keeping sentry with sticks in their hands. Though a shillalagh might be a national weapon, and might be very effectively employed at times, yet he thought that a limited supply of "Old Brown Bess" would be desirable.
MR. MAGUIREsaid, he objected to the Vote, and should move that the Chairman report progress.
MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he hoped, if the Vote were passed, that the noble Lord at the head of the Government would take immediate steps to assure the gunmaking trade that he did not intend to supersede them; otherwise the Vote would do more to shake their confidence than anything that could be done.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he wished to put a question relative to the hammered-iron ordnance. Experiments had been directed to be made, and he, as a soldier, interested in the question, wished to know whether any report had been made on the subject? He wished also to know, whether any report of the experiments under the superintendence of Colonel Simmons had been made?
MR. MONSELLreplied, he should have no objection to lay the Report on the table when it was received, but at present it had not yet been made.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he hoped the hon. Member (Mr. Maguire) would not insist upon reporting progress, but take the discussion on the Report.
MR. MAGUIREsaid, he was only anxious to have the subject discussed, and, on the understanding that another opportunity would be given for that purpose, would withdraw his amendment.
MR. SCHOFIELDsaid, he must contend that this was not a mere Birmingham question, but one affecting the country at large. The gun trade formed a very small fraction of the trade of Birmingham, and it was not on account of the supposed interests of Birmingham, but because he believed the Government could not provide themselves so well with arms as private manufacturers could do, that he was opposed to the Vote.
MR. WALPOLEsaid, there existed a misapprehension that an account of the Resolution come to by the Small Arms Committee last year, the Government had been prevented from obtaining as large a supply of arms as otherwise they would have done, but he believed that, had the Vote been carried last year, it would have

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been impossible to establish the manufactory in time to provide the necessary supply of arms.
MR. MONSELLsaid, the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly right in his conclusion. It would have been impossible for Government to manufacture the arms required in any circumstances.
Motion made, and Question put—
"That a sum, not exceeding 2,752,348 l., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of Ordnance Stores for Land and Sea Service, which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1856."
The Committee divided:—Ayes 24; Noes 110: Majority 86.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Vote agreed to; House resumed.
The House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock.

MINUTES.
ROYAL ASSENT.—Consolidated Fund (£3,300,000); Consolidated Fund( 20,000,000).

EDUCATION IN INDIA.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that in rising to move for the papers of which he had given notice, he was anxious to state the grounds which led him to bring these papers under the notice of the House. In all cases in which important changes had been effected in our laws or system of government, it behoved us to pause and to review carefully the working of our new measures in order to form a judgment of their success. This, though very generally true, is peculiarly so in a case like the present. He would remind their Lordships that Parliament had recently passed an Act which entirely remodelled the Government of India. It was into the operation of that Act in one of its most important parts, that he proposed to inquire; for the consequences of British legislation on Indian interests demanded the especial and constant care and superintendence of Parliament; for their Lordships would find, on looking back to the way in which former Acts of Parliament relating to India had been carried into effect, that many enactments, on which great reliance had been placed, and from which re-
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forms of the most important character had been expected, in practice had been totally set aside by those who were charged with their administration; and this we have seen done almost as soon as these laws were passed. At other times we have seen them carried out in a manner which defeated the intentions of those who had framed them. He could cite many instances in illustration of this proposition. For instance, the Act of 1813, renewing the Charter of the East India Company, contained many enactments of great importance, some of which were practically set aside as soon as passed. The provision contained in that Act, which directed that an annual sum should be set aside and applied for the purpose of education in India, had been either forgotten or neglected by the East India Company, until, after many years, the fact transpired during the proceedings of a Commission appointed to consider the question of education; and it was not till then that the default on the part of the East India Company was even attempted to be corrected. Even then, it was done most reluctantly, and inadequately corrected. In the same way, under the Charter Act of 1833, that important clause, the 87th, passed distinctly with the view of opening the appointment to offices in India, without distinction of caste, colour, or birth, to all subjects of the Crown, had been repealed in practice. Another most important clause of the same Charter Act had also been set aside in like manner. An especial mode was prescribed for admitting persons into the civil service of the Company, and providing for their education at Haileybury. The candidates, it was true, were to be appointed by the nomination of the East India Directors, with the proviso, however, that three or four candidates were to be named for every vacancy, and the appointment should only be conferred on him who proved his competency after a fair struggle with his rivals, similarly recommended. This clause, also, had been totally set aside by the East India Company. Instances like these, he thought, established the importance that Parliament should inquire from time to time, and closely watch whether the laws which it passed were properly obeyed by public servants charged with their administration in a distant country, and who were neither under the eye nor subject to the control of the Home Government. He would now proceed to describe the papers

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for which he intended to move. The first was a letter written to the Government of India on the 15th of July, 1854, for the purpose of providing a general system of education for the people of India. The Act under which that letter was written had received the Royal Assent in August, 1853, nearly one year before. But he did not complain of the time which had elapsed between the date of the letter and the passing of the Act; on the contrary, he thought the late President of the Board of Control had acted most prudently in taking time for consideration. This was required both for communicating with the Court of Directors and with the authorities in India, whose concurrence no doubt had been obtained, before he drew up the Minute. Parliament was not informed officially to whom the great merit of this measure was due. The divided system left it in doubt whether it was attributable to the Company or to the Board of Control. He felt himself therefore free to choose, and therefore preferred to trace it to the hand of an old colleague and valued Friend (Sir C. Wood), late President of the Board. With respect to the document itself, he could not find words to express his sense of its importance, or his admiration for the able and statesmanlike manner in which it had been drawn up. A more interesting document, or one more honourable to the statesman who framed it, had never in his judgment been brought under the notice of Parliament. It left no part of the question of education in India untouched, and it dealt with every blanch of the subject judiciously and effectually. He thought, moreover, that this document was of the utmost importance, as finally and absolutely disposing of a question which even in our own times had been in some quarters treated as a matter of considerable doubt—whether the education of the people of India was a task which England ought to charge herself with, or whether, on the contrary, it was to be viewed as an undertaking full of danger and peril to British supremacy. His opinion, he need hardly say, on the point entirely coincided with that of his noble Friend (Lord Glenelg), who, on one occasion, when the subject was brought under discussion, declared with generous indignation that if the dominion of England was to be maintained only by keeping the people of India in a state of ignorance and debasement, the sooner it was abandoned the better for all parties.
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The letter he now moved for, and the evidence on which it was founded, settled the question authoritatively and for ever. Besides, it is made clear that it was now beyond the power of those who opposed education in India to arrest it. The progress of education is now irresistible, and it is advancing and extending with great rapidity among the people of India. Sir Charles Wood, therefore, deserved the national gratitude equally of England and India, for having interposed at the time and to the extent he has done; realising as he has by this document a general system of education for the people of India. His plan is complete in all its parts, the highest as well as the lowest, from his scheme of rural or village schools, to collegiate establishments, and completed by an enlarged system of university education. With respect to the combined relation of religion and education, many persons who entered upon the last Indian Committee, did so with an impression that the Government of India and the educational authorities might be made instrumental in spreading the Christian religion among the Natives. He believed he might add, that all had left the Committee with the conviction that such connection would be detrimental to the interests of religion itself, would impede the progress of knowledge, and endanger the tranquillity of the British Empire in India. All who had considered the question were of opinion that it would be better both for the interests of education and the interests of religion, that Government should not be connected with the active propagation of any religion, which was to be left in much better hands—namely, in the assiduous and disinterested efforts of the missionaries. The Government was too powerful to undertake these duties without raising jealousy and suspicion. The masters of ten legions could never safely undertake the duties of Christian Apostles. He wished, on this subject, to obtain the opinion of the eminent man now Governor-General. It was probable that some correspondence had taken place, both previous and subsequently to the date of this Minute, and he trusted that, if such was the case, that portion of the correspondence to which there was no objection would be also laid upon the table. He moved for these papers in no spirit of hostile feeling—quite the contrary; but he was anxious to see how the suggestions of the President of the Board of Control had

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been received in India, and how far the Government of India was disposed to carry them out.
The next paper for which he was about to move was of a different description; and although there was much in it to admire, he regretted to say that he also found much from which he must withhold his consent. Their Lordships would remember that by the late Act the exclusive nomination by the Directors of the East India Company to the civil service was abolished, and a system of free competition and open examination established in its stead. At present this examination was for admission into the College at Haileybury, where a special education was provided and carefully administered for the civil service:—but it now appeared, by this paper, that it was proposed hereafter to put an end to the College at Haileybury, and to admit into the civil service candidates who passed a successful competing examination, substituting such examination for an established course of education and discipline. This, he thought, was a doubtful matter. By the Act of last Session the Board of Control was called on to frame rules under which these candidates were to be hereafter admitted to the civil service; and the Board had in consequence appointed a Commission on which were names of men entitled to the greatest deference and calculated to carry with them the strongest weight. These Commissions, of whom it was only necessary to name Mr. Macaulay and his hon. Friend now at the table of their Lordships' House, Mr. J. Lefevre, were called on to collect information and to advise the Government on this point. He confessed that he expressed any difference of opinion from such high authorities with great distrust; but he considered this paper, with respect to the open competition for the Indian civil service, to be liable to considerable objections, and as likely to act injuriously to the Natives of India, contrary, he trusted, to the intentions of the Commissioners. This was the more objectionable, inasmuch as he knew not in what spirit these rules might be carried out. If the intentions of the Commissioners were such as might be collected, not from their high character, but from the words of the paper for which he moved, they would go far to defeat the entire policy of last year. The point to which he referred was no less than the free eligibility of the
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Natives of India to political offices in the civil service. The words contained in the original Act of Parliament were clear enough—
"that no Native of the said territories, nor any natural-born subject of Her Majesty born therein, shall by reason of his birth be disabled from holding any place, office, or employment under the said Company."
But we had witnessed an attempt made with but too much success to exclude Natives from the most valuable offices, by drawing a distinction between covenanted and uncovenanted servants of the Company; but no such distinction really existed in the Act, and no one had any right to create such a distinction. This violation of the spirit and the letter of the 87th section had been persevered in for twenty long years. The principle was now disclaimed, it is true, and abandoned. The noble Earl (Earl Granville) who had charge of the Bill repudiated it boldly and unreservedly. The declaratory clause which he (Lord Monteagle) had moved, setting the question at rest, was objected to, and withdrawn only as being unnecessary. But let Parliament beware lest one system of exclusion should be substituted for another equally fatal and equally hostile to Native interests. There were also other means of exclusion, which might be adopted under these regulations for the examination of candidates for the civil service; and he thought he should be able to show their Lordships that the course of examination was so framed—he would not say so intended—as to exclude the Native of India whilst admitting the European. There were two examinations of candidates; one for admission, and the other after a certain period of time had been passed in study, in order that the progress made by the students and their relative proficiency might be judged of. He very much feared that the effect of those examinations would be, that while the statute enacted that no man should be excluded by reason of caste, colour, birth, or parentage, that exclusion might be equally well effected by their course of examination. The proficiency of the candidate under examination was to be designated by marks of honour, of which the total number was 6,875. Of this number, however, 2,625 were given for the Latin, Greek, French, German, and Italian languages. He certainly did not think that the natives of England and the natives of India would stand upon

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an equal footing in this branch of examination; to call upon the latter to enter into competition with the former in respect to the dead and modern languages of Europe, was absurd, and not consistent with fair play. He had no doubt that under this course of examination the natives of India would be unfairly dealt with, if not excluded. It might, perhaps, be said that the natives of India enjoyed correlative advantages over Englishmen, inasmuch as they would have a superiority in the examinations in Oriental knowledge and languages. But this was very far from being the case. The vernacular languages of the East were omitted altogether, while Sanscrit and Arabic only were included. More than doubts, however, had been expressed by some of the most experienced men, whether any great advantage was to be derived from the study of those, the learned languages of India. The knowledge of the vernacular languages was of importance, but the other two languages, though useful to scholars in the same way that the Anglo-Saxon dialects were useful to scholars in England, were comparatively unimportant in the political administration of the Indian Empire. But, waiving this argument, presuming them to be important, there was an unfairness in the plan laid down, inasmuch as that, while in the course of examination 2,625 marks of honour were given to Englishmen for proficiency in the Greek, Latin, French, German, and Italian languages, only 750 marks, being less than one-third of the numbers, were to be given to the natives of India in respect to the Sanscrit and Arabic languages. That could not fail to operate in some cases as a most unjust exclusion of the natives of India from the civil service of the Company. Then there were to be 1,500 marks assigned to success in the examination in English. To this he did not object, considering it quite right that the Indian candidates should be exposed to the freest competition in our literature. But it was somewhat curious that the whole of the examinations in history were to be in English history, and that there was to be no examination in the history of India till the period of the second examination was reached, from which Indians might be excluded by the European characteristics of the first examination. He had already shown that, with reference to modern and ancient literature, the Hindoo and Parsee would not be admitted, unless honours
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were obtained to the extent of 2,625 marks in studies exclusively European, thus forming, as he believed, a practical exclusion. For mathematics, pure and mixed, and for natural and moral sciences, there were 2,000 marks, and to that there could be no objection—in these branches the European and Native might justly be placed on terms of perfect equality; but a general view of the case induced him to believe that, though the paper in which this scheme was laid down was prepared with consummate ability, the scheme for the examination paper was framed without the slightest possible reference to any one Native establishment, or the interests of any native of India. It is stated that the interests and the course of study at Oxford and Cambridge had been considered. What he complained of was, that the interests of the Hindoos and Mahomedan colleges had been forgotten or neglected. He might, however, be mistaken, and he could assure their Lordships that nothing would give him greater pleasure than to get an assurance from Her Majesty's Government that in the framing of those papers there had been no intention unfairly to exclude from the benefits intended for them by Parliament, any one of the Indian subjects of Her Majesty who should prove himself to be deserving.
There only remained one other subject to which he would refer. He had said that the noble Earl (Earl Granville) had been quite frank and unreserved in admitting that Lord William Bentinck's 87th clause did admit and was intended to admit Natives to the civil service, and that it was only a forced construction that would exclude them under the terms of that Act. He admitted, in a manner equally distinct and unqualified, that the same was the intention and import of the present Charter Act. This is now beyond all doubt and cavil by what has since occurred, and which has broken down once and for ever the distinction between the covenanted and uncovenanted service, and the consequent and unjust, if not illegal, exclusion of the natives of India. A very extraordinary illustrative case had since occurred which did great honour and credit to a native of India. It was the case of a young Indian of high caste, a Brahmin, who, having gone through a most successful course of instruction for the medical profession, both in India and in Europe, had, notwithstanding his high proficiency, been refused by the East India Company to be admitted

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as one of their civil servants. The East India Directors had been parties to Lord W. Bentinck's clause admitting Hindoos to all offices whatever, without reference to birth, religion, or caste; and yet they refused to confer an appointment on this gentleman, on the ground that the applicant for it was a native of India, and that the office which he sought, and for which he was pre-eminently qualified, was a covenanted office. This gentleman, however, whose perseverance and nobleness of heart in contending against the cruel opposition to which he was exposed, did him the highest honour, though compelled to return to India rejected and disappointed, was nothing daunted, and had, at last, succeeded in his object, and had been admitted under the new Act as a civil covenanted servant of the Company. This gentleman was Dr. Chuckerbutty. His history is most curious and instructive, and will, it may be hoped, serve as an encouragement to his fellow countrymen. At the early age of six or seven he had made great progress at a Native school in the Native languages. Struck with the appearance and evident superiority of a European who accidentally visited the village, the Hindoo child determined to learn English; and, accordingly, packing up his few articles of clothing in a handkerchief, with a small quantity of parched rice, he left his home and travelled on foot to a school at a considerable distance, where English was taught, and where, in consideration of his acting as cook, he received English lessons. He passed from school to school, and from progress to progress, till, at last, his talents having excited attention, an offer was made to him that he should go to England to complete the study of medicine. He accordingly went to England, at the hazard of losing his caste, of losing the favour of friends in India, and the future chances of promotion there. He entered upon a course of instruction at University College, London, and carried off gold medals and certificates of honour; and then applied for the appointment to which he was entitled, if the East India Directors had acted as they ought. He met with the generous and persevering support of Sir Edward Ryan and Mr. Cameron, who have now the consolation of being rewarded for the protection they gave to this noble-hearted Native. They sought to obtain for him an appointment of assistant-surgeon. That appointment was refused him; but he was
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not daunted; he went to the Continent, followed up his studies there, learned European languages, and afterwards returned to India, where he was appointed professor and lecturer in one of the many useful colleges that exist in the East, where he gained new honours. When he understood that by the Bill of last Session the obstacles which had prevented him obtaining the appointment he had applied for had been removed, he again sacrificed, or at least endangered, many important interests and everything that was dearest to him, and returned to England, not merely for the purpose of attaining the object of his own ambition, but of vindicating the right of every one of his countrymen to admission to civil employment under the East India Company. He held in his hand a letter from the Native gentleman of whom he was speaking, addressed to Sir Edward Ryan, in which he said—
"You will see me soon in London, for I wish to compete for an assistant surgeonship there. I shall have to run many risks, but I will brave them. I will have to leave my family, my private practice, and my college appointment; in addition to which, my trip will cost me from 5,000 to 6,000 rupees, a sum I am ill able to spare, especially if I do not succeed. However, this is my last chance, for I shall be twenty-eight on my next birthday, after which age candidates are ineligible."
He added that "even if he failed, it would be a satisfaction to him that he had used his best efforts in the service of his country, and that it was only a physical difficulty thrown in his way which had been the cause of his disappointment and loss." He came over and succeeded; but he believed that meritorious man was indebted to the powerful interposition of the noble and gallant Viscount near him (Viscount Hardinge) for regaining, on his return to India, the appointment he had originally held there, but which, nevertheless, he would have been willing to relinquish in order to fight the battle of his countrymen. Nor was this the only favour which he owed to his noble and gallant Friend. It had been said that there existed in India a great jealousy on the subject of the admission of Natives to such important positions in the public service. But this was a mistake. He was enabled to prove by one conclusive fact that this was no such thing. He (Lord Monteagle) had a letter from India, signed by exclusively British-born subjects in Calcutta, including Mr. Colville, Judge of the Supreme Court, Mr. Allen, Vice President of the Legislative Council, Mr.

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Grant, a member of the Supreme Council, several Judges, Mr. Goodeve, the distinguished botanist and geologist—a letter with which they presented Dr. Chuckerbutty with a purse of 100 guineas, in order to assist him to come home on the last occasion of his visit to England, for the purpose, it should be remembered, of entering into competition with English candidates. In that letter they express "the hearty interest they feel for the success of his undertaking, and their warm approval of the determination he had formed, in spite of many obvious difficulties, of seeking, by open and honourable competition with Englishmen, to be the first native of India who has obtained a covenanted appointment under this empire." They conclude by saying, "We sincerely hope, not only that you yourself may obtain success, but that you may be the pioneer of similar success to many others of your countrymen in future years." He (Lord Monteagle) had also heard various objections to the appointment of Native assistant-surgeons, the one more stupid than the other. The appointment of a Native assistant-surgeon was refused on the ground that it was incompatible with the safety of their Indian dominions; and he had heard that no European, particularly of the other sex, would call in the aid of medical gentlemen of Hindoo caste. But these objections, even if really felt, which he doubted, would speedily vanish. He thanked their Lordships for the indulgence with which they had listened to his statement. He hoped the House would interpose to give effect to their own generous intentions—that they would enforce the operation of their own measure, and that such an interpretation would be given to the Act as would prevent any attempt at a system of exclusion. The subject was a very important one, and he should be gratified and comforted if it led only to a renewed admission from the Government that natives of India were really eligible for offices in the civil service, under what may now be termed the Constitutional Act of the Empire in the East, as interpreted by the framers of that Act, and confirmed by the victory won by the perseverance and intellectual superiority of the young Brahmin who so successfully fought the battle of his country. His Lordship concluded by moving—
"That there be laid before the House, Copies or Extracts of any Correspondence between the Board of Control, the Court of Directors of the
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East India Company, and the Authorities in India, on the Report, dated November 1854, on the Examination of Candidates for the Civil Service of the East India Company: Also, On the Letter as to the Company's College at Haileybury, and Regulations framed for the Examination of Candidates for Appointments to time Civil Service of the East India Company: And also, On the Despatch to the Government of India on the Subject of general Education in India."
LORD ASEIBURTONsaid, that the speech of the noble Lord was a direct censure on the Committee from which the Report proceeded; for it would be a most severe imputation if it could be made out either that they intended to exclude natives from the covenanted service, or that they had so blundered as accidentally to bring about that result. There most assuredly was no intention to exclude the natives of India from the covenanted service of the Company. The evidence of Sir E. Ryan bore directly upon the question at issue. Sir Edward had given it as his opinion that those examinations had been so framed as to leave very considerable advantages to the natives. He said that in a competition in English composition, history, and literature, some Indians surpassed English students; and he (Lord Ashburton) very well understood how that could be; it would be just as a stranger who visited London for a few days would have a better chance of success in an examination upon London antiquities than a Londoner would have who had lived all his life in London, without paying any attention to antiquarian research. An Indian spent in the study of the English language and literature all those years which an Englishman spent in the study of the classical languages. Certainly, with regard to Latin, Greek, French, German, and Italian, an Englishman would possess certain advantages; but in mathematics, pure and unmixed, Sir Edward Ryan said the chances of an Indian were superior, the Indian genius being more apt in that department than the English; and in natural and moral sciences his chances were quite equal; while in Arabic and Sanscrit their superiority was necessarily considerable. Therefore, he thought the noble Lord ought to feel a little relieved from the excess of anxiety under which he was labouring. The noble Lord seemed to throw some slight slur upon the insertion of the French, German, and Italian languages in the curriculum in question; but if he thought that that kind of knowledge was really and absolutely required of candidates, he was much mistaken. The

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object of the Commissioners, he believed, was to make the first examination a trial of strength, to bring out the qualities, whatever they might be, of every candidate who presented himself, no matter where he had begun or completed his studies, and no matter what the nature of those studies might have been. Whatever a man knew was to be brought out, and it was for that reason that so very extensive a list of acquirements had been made up— it was sufficient if judgment and vigour of mind were exhibited with regard to any species of knowledge. If a man could show that he had exercised judgment and ability in the study of the German language, for instance, his knowledge, genius, and powers as displayed in that department would be counted to him. It was upon the same principle that the examination paper included Sanscrit and Arabic. If a man chanced to know Arabic, for instance, why should it be said to him, "You shall not have an opportunity of displaying the ability with which you have dipped into that language," for the object of the Commissioners was that whatever a man knew he should be enabled to come forward and show it? The Commissioners were most anxious that no one should be excluded from the competition, but that whatever candidates might have learned before, at London, Edinburgh, Dublin, or Aberdeen —whether they had studied French, or German, or Italian—if they showed that they had acquired correct knowledge on such matters and could exercise a satisfactory judgment upon that knowledge, they should be admitted as competitors. He (Lord Ashburton) entirely agreed with the earlier part of the speech of the noble Lord; he considered that there were many parts of the Act of last year which were of immense importance to the future interests of India, which would require the constant vigilance and superintendence on the part of the Legislature, as to the manner in which they were carried out, in order that they might be worked to good, and prevented from working mischief.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLEexpressed his gratification that the matter should have been brought under the consideration of the House by his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle). The attention of their Lordships was invited to two classes of persons who, in the legislation of this country, presented a strong contrast to each other—he referred to the assistant-surgeons and the civil servants of the East India Company.
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There was, however, this distinction between the two cases—that for the assistant-surgeon there were no medical colleges in India, so that it was necessary for them to come to England for a medical education. But, though there was no medical education to be obtained in India, there was every facility for obtaining an education to fit the natives of that country for the civil service of India; and it was perfectly impossible that the wants of the civil service in India could be supplied by forty youths annually sent out from this country, and he thought it would be most unjust to compel them to come to this country in order to acquire that which they could obtain as readily at home. He ventured to express a hope that the new President of the Board of Control, whenever he had any occasion to leave Cannon Row for advice, would not go further than the Admiralty. He (the Earl of Albemarle) had a most thorough conviction that if the India Bill of 1853 had been brought forward at the close instead of the commencement of the reign of the late President (Sir C. Wood), the experience which his right hon. Friend had gained before he quitted the office would have enabled him to produce a much different measure. He recommended the new President of the Board of Control to take into his counsels the new Secretary of that Board, who, as President of the Reform Association, had made himself acquainted with the necessities and wants of India, and he trusted that the appointment of the new Secretary was intended by the Government as an earnest of their intention to do justice to the people of India. Seeing the virtual impossibility of the natives of India taking advantage of the Act of 1853, from which his noble Friend (Lord Ashburton) disclaimed any intention of excluding them, he hoped that the Government would take steps to enable the inhabitants of India to fit themselves for the civil service without coming over here; and he would suggest that a certain number of appointments should be placed at the disposal of the Governor-General of India, so that the natives of that country or any British-Indian might have an opportunity of obtaining their fair share of the patronage of the Indian Government, from which they were at present excluded.
LORD WYNFORDsaid, that when it was considered that the natives of India would come a distance of 10,000 miles for the purpose of availing themselves of any advantages which they might derive from

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the Act of 1853, it was to deceive them and to deceive ourselves to say that there was any fair competition as regarded them. Although the energy of one man had overcome the difficulties with which the subjects of India had to contend—and he trusted that the future success of Mr. Chuckerbutty would be proportionate to the sacrifices which he had made to attain it—yet the Act was a mockery as a general measure. In order to make the examination fair towards all parties concerned, the place of examination ought to be the place where the honours were to be acquired. From all that lie could learn, he could not find that any Governor-General of India, any of the Directors of the East India Company, or any one experienced in the affairs of India, had been consulted in framing the measure now in operation, and he thought that something far more beneficial to the Government of India might have been devised if the attempt had been made.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that he thought one point had been lost sight of in this debate—that the object and the duty of Parliament, of the Government, and of the Gentlemen who signed the Report which had been so often alluded to, was, in the first instance, to find the ablest men to conduct the government of India. No doubt one very great advantage would be to admit the natives to a share in that Government, but he doubted very much the advantage of greatly increasing the number of natives who should be admitted to the civil service of India, if, by removing the scene of competition from here to India, we admitted those who had not had an opportunity of showing their possession of that energy of character and moral courage which they must now exhibit to qualify themselves for that service. The noble Lord had, in referring to the case of Mr. Chuckerbutty, borne handsome testimony to the sincere desire of the Government to promote the advancement of the natives of India. He (Earl Granville) took that opportunity of saying that the Government viewed the success of that gentleman with the highest satisfaction, not only because it was in itself a well-merited reward of his talents and exertions, but because it disproved the tenor of the remarks made by many of the witnesses who gave evidence before the Committee of two years ago, who, while they spoke most strongly in favour of the attainments, the powers, the application, and perseverance of the natives of India, yet denied
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them the very quality of moral courage which Mr. Chuckerbutty had so signally displayed. It was unnecessary for him to say one word in praise of the scheme of education which was founded on the Minute of the Board of Directors, because the praise bestowed upon that document appeared to be universal, and some curiosity had been manifested as to who was its author—the Board of Directors or the President of the Board of Control. Nor would it be regular for him to say from whom it emanated. All he could say was, that in all the great reforms which had been introduced into the government of India during the last two years—greater within the last two years than any which had been carried out for many years previously—the President of the Board of Control and the Board of Directors had gone together in the most cordial manner. It was not necessary for him to enter into the question of Haileybury College, because there would be another opportunity for doing so when the Bill with respect to it came before the House. He believed, however, that it was clear that under the 41st and 42nd clauses of the late Act, it was competent for the East India Company to admit into their service, persons who had not been to Haileybury; nor could he help observing that if the system of education carried on there was open to the objections of Earl Grenville forty years ago, it would be impossible to support it along with the new system of education. It was impossible to send men whose attainments already qualified them for professors, to an establishment which was little better than a private school. He thought that the names of the gentlemen who had been appointed by the Government to prepare the scheme of examination for the candidates for Indian appointments were a sufficient proof of their sincere desire for the success of the project, and for the admission of the natives of Hindostan to a share in the patronage of the Government. Was it likely that Mr. Macaulay, who at an interval of twenty years had made probably the two most eloquent speeches that ever were delivered in favour of the natives, would now have lent himself to interpose obstacles in the way of their being fairly admitted into the Company's service?—or that, from want of sagacity, and of knowledge of what the natives could do, he should have produced a scheme which would be practically inoperative in that respect? The mistake made by those who had animadverted upon that

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scheme was this—they treated the whole number of marks allotted to the various subjects introduced in the Report as if it was one likely to be obtained by any single candidate. Now, the Report of the Commissioners stated that they did not expect any candidate could take more than half the total number, and, for himself, he (Earl Granville) did not think there was much chance of any candidate obtaining one-third. A great experiment had been entrusted to these gentlemen, and what had been done by the Commissioners and by the Government was, they had framed what they thought the very best scheme which, under present circumstances, could be adopted for the purpose of making this great experiment. There was no pretension on their part that the number of marks they had laid down as necessary should be kept unalterable, like the laws of the Medes and of the Persians, or that the limitation as to age should, under all circumstances, be strictly adhered to. All he asserted was, that, most honestly and, as he believed, most ably, the attempt had been made to render this the best possible scheme; and he had been informed, on very good authority, that one, if not more, of the natives of India would compete the very next year for the high prizes offered to them.
LORD MONTEAGLEbriefly replied, expressing his satisfaction at the discussion which had taken place, and at the sentiments which had been expressed by the noble Earl who had addressed the House on the part of the Government.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned till To-morrow.