Sitting of 7 March 1854

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—For Cardigan County, Earl of Lisburne.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Thames Embankment and Railway (London and West London); Mutiny. 3° Coasting Trade.

PARDON OF FROST, WILLIAMS, AND JONES—QUESTION.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, he rose to ask the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to advise the Crown to grant the same amount of pardon to Frost, William, and Jones, convicted of high treason in 1839, which had been recently extended to Mr. Smith O'Brien, convicted of a similar offence in 1848? It was with much pleasure he had heard that it was Her Majesty's gracious intention to extend Her mercy to Mr. Smith O'Brien, and he wished to ask the noble Lord whether the same ground was not equally applicable for an extension of clemency to Messrs. Frost, Williams, and Jones? They were convicted of high treason in 1839, and they had therefore suffered fifteen years' banishment from their native land. During the whole of that time their conduct had been most exemplary, and had been so represented by the Governor of Van Diemen's Land. He trusted, therefore, that the same amount of mercy would be extended to them as had been properly extended to Mr. Smith O'Brien.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, Her Majesty, who is always glad when She can properly find an opportunity of tempering justice with mercy, has been graciously pleased to sanction an extension of Her clemency to Messrs. Frost and Williams,

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similar to that which she has extended to Mr. Smith O'Brien. [Mr. DUNCOMBE: And Jones?] Yes, of course, to Frost, Williams, and Jones, the three who were sentenced together. And I take this opportunity of saying that there are two other gentlemen—[a laugh]—who were transported at the same time with Mr. Smith O'Brien—Mr. Martin and Mr. Doherty—who had committed slighter offences than Mr. Smith O'Brien, and whose sentence was therefore limited for a shorter time. Her Majesty's indulgence has also been extended to them.

PUBLIC BUSINESS—QUESTION.
MR. WALPOLE: I see, Sir, some important Orders of the Day and notices of Motion for Friday evening. There is the second reading of the Bill for the Removal of Bribery, and the second reading of the Controverted Elections Bill; also a notice by the noble Lord of a measure for making further provision for the good government and extension of the University of Oxford. What I wish to ask the noble Lord is, whether the whole of that business is likely to come on, and in what order?
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: On Friday I propose to postpone the Orders of the Day, with the view of bringing in a Bill for the government and extension of the Universities. After, that business is disposed of, I shall then propose to take the second reading of the Bribery Bill. I shall not take the Bill for the trial of Converted Elections, with respect to which notice has been given of a resolution upon the second reading, I do not know whether we shall be able to proceed on the same night with the Poor Law Settlement Bill; but my right hon. Friend the President of the Poor Law Board is anxious to proceed with that Bill, if possible.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: I wish to know whether, under these circumstances, the Poor Law Settlement Bill ought not to be definitely postponed, because the inconvenience is great of not knowing exactly when such a Bill will come on?
MR. DISRAELI: There are some returns of great importance connected with the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor Law Board which are not yet delivered. That may be a reason with the noble Lord why the second reading should be postponed.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: If there are returns required to be laid on the table
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of the House, I will not press that Bill on Friday; but as the Government have only two nights in the week, I think the usual hours of sitting should be employed in Government business.

CHURCH-YARDS, ETC. (METROPOLIS).
COLONEL HARCOURTsaid, be would' beg to move that an Address be presented to Her Majesty for a Return of the Notices for Discontinuance of Burials within the Metropolis, issued by the Secretary of State, in compliance with the provisions of the Act 15 & 16 Vict. c. 85. He wished particularly to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to this subject, in consequence of complaints that were made of the distress occasioned by the sudden closing of so many burial-grounds without sufficient provision of other places of interment. He disclaimed any intention to blame the noble Lord at the head of the Home Department for the course he had taken under the threatened approach of cholera, or to find fault with him for the defect in the law in not making it compulsory upon parishes, where old burial-grounds were closed, to provide new ones. He was aware the making proper provision was beset with difficulties. Some parishes in the east of the metropolis were in such a state of pauperism that they were unable to pay a rate for the purpose of raising the necessary funds; and as the local want would soon become a national necessity, further legislation was unavoidable. He was told there would be difficulty in finding funds for the purpose. He had never heard of any difficulty in providing parks for healthful recreation, and he looked upon this requirement as no less imperative. He might be told it was better to leave these matters to parochial arrangement, as there was always great jealousy of any Government interference, or to private enterprise. He dissented from any such feeling of jealousy; and as to private enterprise, he would point to the millions lost in railways from not being placed under the direction of the Government, and to the heavy tax levied upon the public for crossing the private bridges over the Thames, as proofs of how much the people lost by the want of Government interference. In his opinion, if there was one subject more than another which ought not to be left to private enterprise, it was the construction of extramural cemeteries for the metropolis. He served last Session on a Committee before which a Bill was

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brought, for the formation of a very large r cemetery at Willesden. The scheme came to them recommended by the proprietors of the, soil, by 300 out of 350 ratepayers of the parish, with the sanction of the noble Lord at the head of the Home Department, and with the sanction, if not the approval, of the right rev. Prelate the Bishop of London. When the Bill, however, reached t another place, the Bishop of London, with other Bishops, went down to the House to throw it out; it only passed a second reading by a majority of one; it went before a !I Committee, and by that Committee was finally rejected. He saw it recently stated, in the Illustrated London News, that the noble Lord the Secretary of State had intimated to the parish of Marylebone, through the hon. Member for that borough (Sir B. Hall), that he would not give his sanction to the Willesden Cemetery if it were again proposed. It was not for him to find out the reasons why the Bishop of London, the noble Lord, and the proprietors of the soil had all so suddenly changed their minds; but he mentioned this case for the purpose of showing the time had arrived when they must not allow matters to be carried out by private enterprise, and when it was the duty of the Government to see, to a certain extent, that proper provision for interments was made. He I might be told that a cemetery was actually, or about to be, provided at Woking, but, he contended, at such a distance it could not meet the wants of the metropolis. Another point worthy the consideration of the Government was, the providing a place for the burial of soldiers, which was much required by the closing of the ground of St. John's, Westminster. The only other subject on which he would touch was, the habitual desecration of the burial-grounds, which were closed. He took only casual instances, without having instituted any inquiries, but they were sufficient, in his opinion, to justify his calling the attention of the Government to them, that such cases might not in future occur. On the burial-ground of St. James's, baths and wash-houses had been erected. At Kensington, the vestry erected a vestry-hall on the site of the burial-ground, and in making foundations cast the dead bodies from the part required to the other part of the ground. He considered the whole subject of such deep importance that he felt no apology was needed for bringing it before the attention of the House.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he had
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no objection to the production of the return which the hon. Gentleman had moved for, and he was quite aware the execution of the law must be attended with very considerable inconvenience both to parishes and to private individuals. But the ground on which the Act was passed, and the ground on which he had felt it his duty to carry it into operation, was, that the public health, which seemed endangered by the state of these burial-grounds, required those sacrifices at the hands of parishes and individuals. With regard to the graveyards which had been closed, the greater part of the parishes to which they belonged had actually provided for themselves other places of interment, and he did not, therefore, think it would be necessary to have any further legislation. At the same time, if it should appear necessary that a compulsory clause to force parishes to provide proper burial-places should be introduced, he should be ready to consider such a case when it arose. With regard to the proposed cemetery at Willesden, he certainly did give his assent to it. The Bill passed that House, and was thrown out in the House of Lords; but it was thrown out because, on investigation, it appeared that the soil was not suitable for the purpose, and the place was likely to be surrounded by buildings, nearer to the intended cemetery than the Act of Parliament would permit. When that circumstance was brought to his knowledge, he certainly did say, as far as he was concerned, he did not think it would be convenient that a cemetery should be there established. If a cemetery was required in ' that direction, he did think it should be further from the metropolis, and in better soil. With regard to the Woking Cemetery, he did not agree with the hon. And gallant Member that that cemetery would not afford important provision for the burials of the metropolis, for, he believed, on the contrary, by arrangements with the railways, burials would there take place without considerable inconvenience to the per. sons who accompanied the funerals. It was quite true, as the hon. and gallant Member stated, that great care should be taken, when any burial-ground was no longer used for interments, that it should not be applied to other purposes. But he had a communication, not long since, with the Bishop of London, and the Bishop assured him that in all such cases, in his diocese, proper care was taken for the removal of the bodies with all that decency

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which the feelings of the public and the feelings of individuals demanded. He had, however, in preparation a Bill which, if he could arrange it, he should propose to Parliament, to regulate what should be done with closed graveyards.
MR. WILKINSONsaid, that, as one of the trustees of the Woking Cemetery Company, he could assure the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Harcourt) that by arrangements with the South-Western Railway Company every facility would be given to parties attending funerals there.
SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, he was glad that the hon. and gallant Gentleman had moved for, and his noble Friend (Viscount Palmerston) agreed to, the return; and if the hon. and gallant Gentleman had moved for further returns, it could have been shown that in several parishes the orders of the Home Secretary for closing graveyards and providing others had been obeyed with alacrity, and that in the conduct of their local affairs the parishes would be always ready to do what was necessary.
MR. APSLEY PELLATTsaid, he thought that the return moved for should have embraced a wider area round the metropolis. In the parish of Staines, the churchyard, and the graveyard attached to a dissenting chapel had both been closed, and as there was no easy access to any cemetery, the parish was left without any place for the burial of the dead. Time should be given to parishes to get other burial-grounds before their own were closed, and the peremptory and positive orders of the Home Secretary had often led to great inconvenience.
MR. HADFIELDsaid, he wished to state that in Manchester there were burial-grounds which had cost nearly 20,000 l., which were not nearly occupied to their full amount, and he desired to know if those grounds were to be closed without any compensation being made to the proprietors?
Motion agreed to. Return ordered.

POSTAL COMMUNICATION BETWEEN LONDON AND SCOTLAND.
MR. H. G. LIDDELLsaid, he rose, pursuant to notice, to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the postal communication between London and Scotland. He was induced to take this course in consequence of the great inconvenience which was experienced by the public by reason of the ineffective condition of the existing
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arrangements. He did not wish unnecessarily to cavil with the conduct of either the railway companies or the Post-Office authorities, but he wished to convince the House that the present system was ineffective, unsatisfactory, and detrimental to the public interests. The direct line for postal communication appeared to him to be the Great Northern line, and any one who was acquainted with the arrangements on that line would agree with him that it was equal, if not superior, in punctuality, speed, and regularity, to any other railway in the country. The House would naturally imagine that this was the route adopted for the conveyance of the mails; but it was not so. At present the mails were conveyed to Edinburgh and Glasgow, viâ Derby, by the North-Western line, and at Tamworth, near Derby, considerable delay was occasioned by the concentration at that place of several lines. The consequence of that concentration was, that the London letters, which were of vital importance to the districts to which he more particularly referred, and also the letters from towns on the eastern coast, were delayed at Derby, to wait the arrival of trains on the numerous branches. From that circumstance a very general delay took place in the arrival of the mails at their destination. The average delay which occurred in the latter months of last year in the arrival of the mail train at Newcastle was, in the month of August, thirty-four minutes; in September, thirty-five minutes; in October, forty minutes; in November, fifty-two minutes; and, in the month of December, it was no less than sixty-nine minutes every day. It was unnecessary to state to the House that such delay in a manufacturing and commercial district was the source of considerable inconvenience. Mails which were due at seven o'clock frequently arrived at eight, and then, considering the time occupied in sorting and distribution, the delivery did not commence till ten o'clock, and sometimes even later, and this grievance was increased by an arrangement by which some of the local mails were concentrated upon the main line. Remonstrances had been made upon the subject, and petitions bad been presented to that House, but with no effect. He did not consider that the delay was produced by the insufficiency of speed on the London and North-Western Railway; on the contrary, the speed appeared to be very considerable. It appeared that the speed of the rains which carried the mails

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was, on the average, from London to Derby, thirty-three miles an hour; from Derby to York, forty miles; and from York to Newcastle, forty-five miles and a quarter: an hour, so that an increase in speed would not correct the irregularity. North of Newcastle, the inconvenience was, of course, I felt in a still greater degree. Edinburgh and Glasgow, and other towns in Scotland, had complained; and, with respect to many of the cross-posts communicating with Newcastle and other important northern towns, the delays were of a very serious description. It had been said that the terms asked by the Great Northern Railway for the conveyance of the mails was too high, but he had obtained those terms, and they did not appear very high to him. They proposed to convey the mails from London to York, and from York to London, 190 miles each way, for the sum of 2s. a mile; and if the Post Office only employed the down train to convey the mails, their charge would be is. 6d. per mile. At present there was a train leaving the station of the Great Northern Railway Company a quarter of an hour later than the last train of the London and North-Western Company, and that train arrived at its destination, Newcastle, regularly and punctually at five o'clock in the morning. That alone was a just ground for employing the Great Northern Railway for the conveyance of the mails to the north; and he did not think that the question of expense should stand in the way when the object to be gained was of so great importance. As the case stood at present, the railway authorities blamed the Post Office, the Post Office the railway authorities, and the public very properly blamed both, and he wished for this inquiry to be made in order that it might be found out which was right. He wished to remind the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wilson) that he was not speaking on behalf of any rural district, but in behalf of a large commercial manufacturing population, and he hoped that the Government would permit the inquiry to be made, for he felt convinced that the result of it would be to convince a Committee of that House that the Great Northern Railway was the proper one which ought to be employed for the conveyance of mails to Edinburgh and Glasgow.
MR. COWANsaid, he seconded the Motion, believing that the subject was one of very great importance. Great inconvenience had been occasioned in his own immediate neighbourhood by sudden alter-
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ations which delayed letters to London twelve, and to Liverpool and Manchester twenty-four hours. At the same time he made great allowance for the Post-Office authorities, and did not at all agree with those who attempted to throw obloquy upon them, for it must be remembered the Post Office was in a transition state, and it was not so very long since letters were carried by mail-coaches. The many difficulties which the Post-Office authorities had to encounter well entitled them to the forbearance of that House and of the country. Much of the evil was to be attributed to the arrangements between the railways and the Post Office, and his belief was, that so long as those arrangements continued it was impossible the Post Office could perform the despatch of the mails to the satisfaction of the country. He thought a Committee would be of service for the purpose of considering the arrangements of the railways with the Post Office, with the view of giving the Post Office authority to command the services of any railway company to carry the mail at a reasonable rate. At present they were acting antagonistically to each other, the Post Office trying to get the service done for the lowest possible amount, and the railways, in many cases, exacting enormous sums. He thought there ought to be more accommodation for Edinburgh, for the House would be surprised when he assured them the number of letters despatched daily from Edinburgh exceeded those from the city of Glasgow. ["No, no!"] He had seen, however, a return to that effect. The Great Northern was twenty-seven miles shorter, and he hoped it would be employed; in fact, it would be greatly for the advantage of the public to employ both railways.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Postal Communication between London and the Cities of Edinburgh and Glasgow, with a view of ascertaining whether greater despatch and punctuality can be attained in the transmission of letters, as well between the termini as the intermediate places."
MR. J. WILSONsaid, with regard to the observations of the hon. Gentleman opposite, relative to the presumed difficulty of an increased expense of employing the Great Northern line of railway, he was quite ready to admit that if that were the only matter that stood in the way of a better regulation and arrangement of the postal communication to the north, it wild be the duty of

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the Government at once to contract with that Company. Although at the pre sent moment they had a contract whit] enabled them to send any quantity of letters at any time of the day by other lines that would be no excuse against further expenditure for the public benefit and public convenience, and, were that the only reason, the Government would be prepare, to enter at once into a contract with the Great Northern line. But the question was much more complicated, and, he must say, referred very much to the convenient, of the district to which the hon. Gentle man had alluded. It would be quite impossible to send a mail direct from London to the north without very materially inter feting with and prolonging the despatch of letters from other parts of the country. By the present arrangement a mail went from London at night, and on its arrival a Tamworth was met by the mails from Ireland and the west of England, and till whole of the north mails were delivered seven or eight o'clock in the morning. But if they were sent by the Great Northern direct, the mail would arrive at York jus an hour earlier than the mail which went by way of Tamworth, and therefore, it order to get letters delivered an hour ear her north of York, they would lose a whole day for the Irish and west of Eng land letters, which met at Tamworth that was the real difficulty of the case What was wanted was to find out some means by which, without delaying letter: from other parts of the country, they conk accelerate the mails from London. If the hon. Gentleman could discover some means by which, by a combination of railways or otherwise, they could send letters from Ireland and the west of England so as to arrive at Newcastle and the north of England in a reasonable time, the Government would be prepared to enter into a contract with the Direct Northern line at once. He must, however, really ask the House to consider the very great extension of business which the railway companies in connection with the Post Office had to perform, and the Post Office to conduct. In one week in 1850 the number of letters passing through the Post Office was 6,852,000; in the corresponding week of last year it had increased to 7,126,000, and the last weekly return was 8,329,000. It was quite obvious, where business was increasing at that rapid rate, and when, as his hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Cowan) bad admitted, the Post Office was in a tran-
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sition state, as to the mode of conveying letters which in many new parts of the country was daily coming into operation, it was no great matter of surprise if they occasionally, or even frequently, witnessed irregularty in the arrival of the mails. He was perfectly free to admit that the present state of the law was very inadequate for the proper performance of the service, and he thought the frank admission he had made in the earlier part of the Session, when he was asked questions about Post-Office irregularities, and the way in which he had always met those inquiries, showed that there was a disposition on the part of the Government to investigate the question. He was therefore, not about to oppose the Motion, but to ask the hon. Member to assent to different terms. He (Mr. Wilson) had had complaints from Newcastle, from the north of England, from Edinburgh, from Glasgow, from Wales, and from Ireland, and therefore it would be an invidious and a comparatively useless undertaking to appoint a Committee to inquire into one single grievance. Believing that the hon. Member would concur in it, and feeling confident that the Postmaster General would feel thankful to the House for any information or assistance it could give on the subject, he would suggest that the Motion should be one to inquire into the cause of the irregularities in the conveyance of mails by railways, and also to consider the best mode of obtaining speed and punctuality. A Motion of that kind would have no reference to any particular part of the country; it set out no special complaints or grievances; and it was open to the House to refer any grievances to such a Committee. By adopting that Motion they would only be doing at once what it was proposed to do separately. He was quite sure the hon. Gentleman was actuated by a desire to consider the whole matter, and not the particular inconvenience only to which his own locality was exposed; he trusted he would at once accede to the alteration, and save him (Mr. Wilson) the necessity of moving an Amendment.
MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he would advise the hon. Member (Mr. Liddell) to adopt the suggestion of the hon. Secretary to the Treasury, because, although he would have supported the appointment of the Committee in the terms proposed, he was aware that there were several towns in the east of Scotland also suffering inconvenience, and asking for inquiry.
MR. H. G. LIDDELLsaid, he did not dissent from the proposition made by the hon. Secretary for the Treasury, but he must permit him to express a doubt whether the subject proposed to be embraced in the inquiry would not he so large as to be beyond the power of a Committee of the House to decide in a reasonable time.
MR. J. WILSONsaid, he did not propose that the Committee, though more extensive in its character, should go into the whole subject at once. He was not prepared definitely to state such would be the case, but he thought it very probable that the great importance of the matter brought forward by the hon. Member would obtain for it priority. There would be nothing to prevent the Post-Office authorities from going on with reform while the Committee proceeded with the inquiry.
MR. MONCKTON MILNESsaid, he thought the inquiry proposed, on the one side, was too limited, while that suggested on the other might be open to the objection that it was too extensive. The matter seemed to him to be one not for a Committee at all, but for immediate legislation. Let them look at that magnificent railway the Great Northern, passing through populous and important districts, with a train called a mail train, yet carrying no letters. Living upon the line of that railway himself, he did not see why he should not have the advantage of a day mail as well as gentlemen who lived at Tamworth. If there was any difficulty in arranging with the railway companies, it was the duty of the Nobleman at the head of the Post Office to introduce a measure by which that difficulty might be removed. He believed there was no other country in the world in which the great advantages which were here available would be thrown away from a failure upon the part of the Government to do its duty, by proposing such legislation as might be necessary in order to turn them to account.
MR. FREWENsaid, he wished to call the attention to the House particularly to the transmission of the day mail which had been alluded to by the hon. Member fen Pontefract (Mr. M. Milnes). The day mail was now sent off at Euston Square by the half-past nine o'clock train in the morning, and did not reach York until four in the afternoon, while the express that left London by the Great Northern al the same time arrived at twenty minutes past two, being a difference of one hour
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and forty minutes; if letters were sent by that train they could be distributed through the north a good deal sooner than they now were. He also thought some inquiry into cross-posts necessary, and at the same time would allude to a Report which had been made at his instance, some years ago, with respect to the transmission of the cross mails from Yarmouth into the Midland districts. He thought the present subject one well worth examination, with a view of accelerating postal arrangements.
MR. ALEXANDER HASTIEsaid, he was confident that, if complaints against any one of the Government departments were justifiable, it was against the Post office authorities. He was certain that if they would only avail themselves of the trains actually in existence for communicating between London and Scotland—and he meant only the express trains—that by such an arrangement they would amply accommodate not merely all the important towns between London and Carlisle, but also those lying between Carlisle and the whole west of Scotland—such as Paisley, Glasgow, and Greenock. He trusted, however, that in the inquiry which was about to take place, some notice would be taken of the local abuses which had crept in, because he could not but feel that the Post-Office authorities in Scotland were by no means clear from blame. In Glasgow, for instance, not only had they to suffer from deficient postal communication, but the post office itself was a mere mass of rubbish and ruin. At the same time, he owned with regret that it was exceedingly necessary the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Board of Works should display a little more activity and zeal in respect of these matters than he had shown since his entry into office. Had the noble Lord the Member for Totness (Lord Seymour) remained in office, he felt sure the Glasgow post office would not now be in its present dilapidated state.
LORD HOTHAMsaid, he was anxious to show to the House that it was not alone the great towns on the immediate direct line between London and Edinburgh that suffered from the existing deficiency; for there were many districts far removed from 'the great towns which not only suffered, but suffered in a still greater proportion. For example, there was a large district of the county which he had the honour to represent which depended for its letters upon the important town of Hull, to which

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letters were brought direct by the principal mail train, to be conveyed thence to the district just alluded to by what he might term an auxiliary train, the departure of which was so arranged as to allow of the mails being forwarded shortly after their arrival in Hull, when the London train reached Hull in proper time. If, however, from any cause, there was a delay in the delivery of letters to the inhabitants of Hull—say of two hours—that detention became of much more serious magnitude to the country districts, and for the reason that the auxiliary train having started without the mails, the London letters were detained until the departure of the next train, which often happened, as was the case during the winter season, to be a luggage train. He himself had forwarded to the Postmaster General a memorial, showing that during a space of fifteen consecutive days the mails had been delayed four hours on each of twelve days. It was quite apparent, then, that some alterations were necessary, and if the Postmaster General had not the power to effect them, let the Legislature itself interfere in the matter. As, however, all such efforts at legislation ought to be preceded by inquiry, it appeared to him that the proposition of the hon. Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Wilson) was quite sufficient to bring about that remedy which the country had a just right to look forward to. He, therefore, was prepared to concur in the Amendment of that hon. Gentleman.
MR. HUDSONsaid, the complaints of the inhabitants of the town which he had the honour to represent were very great and very just. In his opinion, the delay was attributable to the Post-Office authorities. All that they had to do was to give notice to a railway company of the time of departure, and the speed at which they wished a mail train to travel. It was the duty of the company immediately to put on such train, and the amount of remuneration was left to arbitration. If the Postmaster General thought it right to send the mails by the Great Northern Company, let him give the necessary notice, and the train would be at once provided. The advantage to Hull and the district around that town, would no doubt be very great, if the complaint mentioned by the noble Lord (Lord Hotham) should be attended to. The grievance was much greater north of York. By a judicious alteration the merchants of Sunderland, Newcastle, and
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Shields—a district comprising upwards of 400,000 persons—would have their letters placed on their breakfast table. It was impossible to make the necessary improvement north of York by the present route, and he did not see why that district should not have the advantage of the most direct line of communication. He thought the appointment of a Committee most desirable, but should have preferred the adoption of the original resolution, inasmuch as the Committee would have been able to present their Report in a shorter period.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Select Committee appointed.
"To inquire into the causes of irregularity in the Conveyance of Mails by Railways, and to consider the best mode of securing speed and punctuality, and for remunerating the Railway Companies for the services which they perform."

COASTING TRADE BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
MR. H. G. LIDDELLsaid, that before the Bill was finally disposed of he would beg to address a few words to the House. He had received various communications from different Associations and Chambers of Commerce, and had been requested to urge on the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade the necessity of endeavouring to obtain some satisfaction as to the reciprocity which this country was likely to obtain from foreign countries in consideration of having abandoned the last remnant of prohibition. That observation applied more particularly to the Government of the United States, which reserved its coasting trade. Whilst this country had relinquished its coasting trade, the right hon. Gentleman was not able to hold out any assurance that anything in the shape of reciprocity was likely to be obtained from the Government of the United States. Indeed, he felt justified in stating that the notion a smart American had on the subject of reciprocity seemed to resolve itself into this—that America should attain all she could get, and give up nothing that she could keep. He would, therefore, entreat the right hon. Gentleman to keep his attention fixed on that point, and trusted he would be able to establish a perfect principle of reciprocity with foreign States. Looking forward to the possible contingency of trade, he could not regard with confidence this change in the law. Although, at the present time, the demand for freights was so great that universal employment was found for the mer-

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cantile marine of all nations, he feared this state of things could not be expected to last for ever, and he could not but fear that the time might come when our shipping, being exposed to great depreciation, and our shipowners to great loss, very painful feelings might be excited in our ports by the admission of foreign ships, the crowding in of foreign seamen, and the immense amount of competition to which this country might be exposed.
MR. APSLEY PELLATTsaid, he wished to inquire whether the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had turned his attention to the restriction which prevented screw steamers from engaging in the coal trade on the Tyne?
MR. H. G. LIDDELLsaid, at present that upon the entry of foreign vessels into English ports their stores were sealed up, but the masters were allowed to take out the articles necessary for the crews during their stay. He wished to ask whether it was in the contemplation of the right hon. Gentleman to make the owners of foreign ships pay duty on all the stores that might be on board such vessels?
ADMIRAL WALCOTTsaid, he could not allow the third reading of the Bill to pass without recording his complete disapproval of the measure. It was a Bill that in his opinion affected the well-being of England itself; and, therefore, all consideration for private interest ought to yield to the consideration of what was due to the maintenance of England's prosperity.
MR. HUDSONhoped that, as the Bill was to pass, other countries would be induced to confer similar advantages upon us.
MR. THOMPSONsaid, that as a shipowner, he must express his regret that the present measure had not been passed simultaneously with the alteration of the Navigation Laws; had that been done the mercantile interests of the country would have been freed from many inconveniences long ago. It was most important, however, that the United States, at all events, should grant the same freedom to England that they enjoyed in this country. He alluded especially to the prohibition against English vessels engaging in the trade between New York and California. He felt sure that the time would come when the people of the United States would feel quite sure that the present system was maintained solely for the advantage of the proprietors of their splendid clippers, while it affected
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most injuriously the great bulk of their mercantile and manufacturing community.
MR. CARDWELL: In replying, Sir, to the various suggestions which have been thrown out with regard to the impediments in the coal trade, I have caused some inquiries to be made, and shall be happy if any satisfactory alteration can be made in that respect. With respect to stores, foreigners will be admitted to exactly the same privileges as British subjects, and to no others, and a foreigner coming here will enjoy no privilege with regard to duty-paid stores, but would be placed on the same footing as the Queen's subjects. Before the Bill takes its final departure from this House, however, I wish to say a word or two on the subject of reciprocity. The hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Liddell) has expressed his apprehension not only lest this country should fail in obtaining reciprocity, but lest at some future period, in consequence of reverses of trade, we should experience the evil results of opening our trade to all the world. I was happy to hear that observation replied to by the hon. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Thompson). The Liverpool Shipowners' Society, not insensible to the interests of the shipowners of the United Kingdom, have forwarded to me an official record of their approval of the Bill, and they coupled it, and justly coupled it, with their desire that the Government should urge upon foreign countries the duty of conferring upon England privileges reciprocal to those which in our ports have been conferred upon them. And in urging that duty on foreign countries, by what means would the Government be most likely to prevail? If, by retaining some fraction of our protective system, this country had betrayed a want of confidence in the principles which it professes to espouse, we should naturally have failed in the arguments which ought to be addressed to foreign countries; for it was not by reciprocally bargaining upon the subject of trade that we should be so likely to carry out our views with foreign countries as by showing from the success of our example—from that unparalleled prosperity which has followed every relaxation of the restrictive system—that we have adopted it from a conviction that it benefits the people and redounds to the national advantage—thus tending to produce in their minds an anxiety to reap the same advantages for themselves. My attention has been particularly drawn to the

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case of the United States—the most important of all the countries with which we have relations on this subject. It has been said, "The United States will not give us reciprocity unless we can satisfy them that it is for their own advantage to do so." Probably the easiest mode to satisfy them would be by urging our own successful example upon them. But what I wish particularly to call the attention of the House to in regard to the United States is this. In 1849, when the repeal of the Navigation Laws took place, you entitled yourselves by the self-acting clauses of the law in the United States to a reciprocity with them so far as regarded the general over-sea trade. You would not have entitled yourselves, by these self-acting clauses, to reciprocal concessions in regard to the coasting trade. But by the course you have taken, you have laid yourselves under these disadvantages. By opening your colonial trade to them, although not your coasting trade, you naturally expected to receive in return, if not their coasting trade, at least that peculiar trade which consists in the voyage from the eastern coast of America, say New York, to the western coast, namely, California. But there was in America an objection of so high a nature as connected with their constitution, that it might fairly be called an insuperable objection to their making that particular concession, for there is a principle of their constitution which prevents their placing one particular State in a different position from another, and they could not place the voyage from New York to San Francisco on one footing in their law, and the voyage from New York to Baltimore upon another. Up to this time this insuperable difficulty has been felt. Now, however, that your coasting trade has been opened, you have the right to go to America and address to her another language. You have the right to say that, having made every concession with regard to your own country—having shown your unhesitating confidence in the soundness of your own principles—you are not now open to that rebuff when you urge upon her to admit your subjects to advantages such as you give to her subjects. I contend, therefore, with regard to reciprocity with the United States, that this measure is a most important measure, as placing you in a position to call on that great and friendly country, although our rival in navigation, for a measure of reciprocity.
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Nor did Her Majesty's Government neglect to take the steps which it became them in that respect. At the proper time my noble Friend at the head of Foreign Affairs took steps to call the attention of every country, and more especially the attention of the United States, to the step which Her Majesty was recommending Parliament to take on the subject of the coasting trade. The time that has since elapsed has not been sufficient for answers to that communication to be generally received; but it is my good fortune to be able to state to the House that that circular has been productive of results already. In the case of an important neighbouring country, important as regards its commerce—Holland—I learn from my noble Friend that the most satisfactory assurances have been received of immediate action on reciprocity. I think it must be extremely satisfactory to the community that the measure has been permitted to pass this House without a dissentient voice—supported on this occasion, and on others, by the testimony of those either most largely interested in the shipping trade, or representing the largest shipping communities and I believe it is a most important step in the progress of universal free trade, that England, with the unanimous concurrence of the House of Commons, has struck from the free navigation of these shores the last remaining fetters.
MR. DIGBY SEYMOURsaid, that referring to a resolution of the Shipowners' Committee of Sunderland condemning the opinion he had expressed on a previous occasion in that House, he must deny that that resolution expressed the sentiments of the majority of the people of that town. The press of Sunderland—Tory, Whig, and Radical—had united in expressing their approval of the course he had taken in supporting Her Majesty's Government, and he might add, to their credit, that the seamen of Sunderland had come to the conclusion that the throwing open of the coasting trade and the extension in that way of free-trade principles would, while it promoted the prosperity of the country generally, promote also, if not at the present moment, at least in the end, the prosperity of the interests which they represented.
Bill read 3°, and passed.
The House adjourned at a quarter after Seven o'clock.

Preamble
Their Lordships met; and having gone through the Business that stood upon the Paper,
House adjourned to Thursday next.