Sitting of 1 March 1854

CONVENTUAL AND MONASTIC INSTITU- TIONS.
On the question that the House go into Committee of Supply.
MR. LUCASsaid that, not having been afforded an opportunity of speaking in the
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debate of last night, he was anxious to explain some matters referred to by the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. T. Chambers) who introduced the question as regarded the Misses Arrowsmith. He (Mr. Lucas) first heard of that case at the time the nunnery question was before the House last Session, and saw it mentioned in one of the articles of the Morning Herald. He went to the convent where these ladies were, and without any difficulty procured a private interview with them, and conversed for half an hour as to their willingness, or otherwise, to remain in the convent. The case was not one of a couple of girls being sent to a convent to be made nuns, but to be educated and trained as teachers, by which means, their father not being wealthy, they might be able to procure a respectable subsistence. He (Mr. Lucas) explained to those ladies, with their father's permission, that they were perfectly free to leave the convent; and, he should say, he found they possessed a decision of character far beyond their years. They expressed themselves strongly as not being Roman Catholics, neither were they absolutely Protestants—they were in a state of doubt, and required evidence and information before they came to a decision. However, they frankly expressed the happiness they felt at living in the convent—they had not the least wish to leave it, and desired they might be allowed to remain. Not satisfied with that, he (Mr. Lucas) went next day to advise them to go to their father, and not return to the convent unless from a motive of conviction. When he went, he found they had left with one of the nuns, and walked through the street to their father's lodging. They, however, returned again to the convent of their own free will, and without any authority whatever being exercised over them by any party whatever.
Motion agreed to.

SUPPLY—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
House in Committee of Supply.
(1.) 902,821 l., Works, Buildings, &c. Agreed to.
(2.) 154,368 l., Scientific Branch.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he objected to the item for the cost of the Royal Military Academy. He wished hon. Members to contrast it with Sandhurst, where part of the expense was defrayed by the young men themselves, and where a preference was given to the sons of officers, while at Woolwich and Carshalton, where

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the establishment was at the public cost, the young men were appointed by the exercise of the patronage of the Master General, and a preference was not given to the sons of officers, but rather the reverse, and as the young men educated there were principally the sons of persons of property, they ought not to be supported at the public cost.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that it should be remembered that Sandhurst was a self-supporting institution; but, at the same time, he knew that, in the distribution of the patronage of the Master General in appointments at Woolwich, preference was given to the sons of officers in the same manner as at Sandhurst.
MR. MONSELLsaid, the subject of Carshalton school was under the consideration of the Master General, but with a different view to that proposed by the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams), for it was felt that it was not proper that a public department should expend 4,000 l., and receive 6,000 l., which was the case at Carshalton. The sons of officers paid less at Woolwich than other persons. The sum paid by the sons of civilians was 125 l. a year, while those of officers paid 80 l., 70., and 60 l., according to the different ranks of their fathers, and orphans of officers only paid 20 l. a year. The academy at Woolwich had paid into the Exchequer last year 17,158 l., and the expenses of the establishment were only 26,115 l.
MR. HUMEsaid, that when Carshalton school was first established, Colonel Anson, who was then in that House, assured him that, as its object was to enable parents who wished to send their sons into the Army to obtain for them a proper preparatory military education—which there was then great difficulty in doing—though there might be a little outlay necessary at first, it would in time become self-supporting. He had always advocated every measure which could tend to render the Army less expensive to those who entered it. At present it was almost impossible for officers to live in the Army simply on their own resources; and the consequence was, that many of those who really desired to make the Army their profession, and who were the most likely to become distinguished officers, were obliged to sell out.
MR. MONSELLsaid, that the pledge given by the Ordnance would probably be redeemed, for Carshalton had yielded this year 1,800 l. more than in the preceding years, and the subject of its being made
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more efficient was under consideration. With regard to the other remarks of the hon. Member (Mr. Hume), they did not apply to the artillery, where most of the officers did live on their pay.
MR. HUMEsaid, he meant to have drawn a comparison in that respect between the artillery, the most valuable branch of the service, and the rest of the Army, and he wished to see the whole Army, both cavalry and infantry, put on the same footing in that respect as the artillery.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he concurred entirely in what had fallen from the hon. Member for Montrose respecting the necessity of reducing the expenses of officers in the Army. He thought it was extremely prejudicial to the interests of the Army to have young men of fortune coming in, simply with the idea of spending a few years pleasantly as officers, increasing the extravagance of the corps, and standing in the way of those men who made the Army their profession.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he wished to know on what scale the Ordnance survey was to be completed?
MR. MONSELLsaid, the subject was still under consideration by the Treasury, but no decision had yet been come to.
LORD SEYMOURhoped that the country would not be involved in a large additional expenditure on the mere decision of the Treasury, without submitting the subject to the consideration of the House. He had been informed that the simple change from the one-inch to the six-inch scale would cost 500,000 l. for Scotland alone. The evidence given before the Committee of the House of Commons, both by geologists and civil engineers, showed that the six-inch scale was useless for very many purposes.
MR. J. WILSONsaid, he must explain that there had been some doubt as to the scale on which the survey should be made, and the opinions of the most competent persons had been taken, and the conclusion they had come to was, that the large scale would be most desirable. With regard to the expenditure, before any further steps as to the making of the survey on a large scale were taken, the whole question of expense of the survey would be taken into consideration. The only instance in which they had assented to the large scale was in Glasgow, and they had done so only on condition that whatever arrangement was made with regard to the rest of Scotland should apply to Glasgow.
MR. HUMEsaid, he must complain that no direct answer had been given to the question of the noble Lord (Lord Seymour). They had expended between 700,000 l. and 800,000 l. in this survey, and it was not precisely understood upon what principle they were proceeding, in consequence of the want of more general superintending authority.
SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, he thought they ought to have an assurance that no money would be expended on the survey without the sanction of the House.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he thought that the survey of a plain surface, such as moors and even perhaps mountains where there were no details to be put in, would not be more expensive on a large scale than on a small one; while, on the other hand, it was of great advantage to secure a uniform survey. If any of the towns desired a survey on a still larger scale, they ought to be called on to bear a share in the expense.
MR. SMOLLETTsaid, he wished to know how much money had been expended in the survey of Scotland during the last and preceding years. He believed some of the money granted in previous years had not been entirely expended, and he wanted to know whether it could be appropriated to other parts of the survey, or whether it would be applied exclusively to Scotland?
MR. MONSELLsaid, he would state the progress that had been made in the last year on the six-inch scale. The number of square miles completed in England was 689, in Scotland 796, and in Ireland 551. Of the one-inch map there had been completed twelve miles in England, ten in Scotland, and thirty-two in Ireland. He would acknowledge at once that with regard to continuous progress the thing was not in a satisfactory state, because the scale in which the survey was to be carried on had not been decided. Not nearly so much had been done within the year as would have been done if that had been decided upon.
MR. HUMEsaid, they had laid out between 700,000 l. and 800,000 l., and they were now told that the department did not know the work they had to do. That arose from the want of a single authority from whom the department might receive orders. In the sum of 122,000 l. he observed that there was 2,000 l. for engraving maps of large towns, 2,000 l. for en-
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graving maps of towns in Ireland; and another 1,000 l. for maps.
MR. MONSELLsaid, the department was perfectly aware from whom they were to receive orders. They were to receive orders from the Treasury. What he stated was, that they had not received those orders, and therefore the work had not gone on in a satisfactory way. With regard to the sale of maps, they had received this year 5,212 l. for maps.
MR. SMOLLETTsaid, what he wished to know was, how much of the money voted last year had been expended in Scotland?
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he was astonished to find that the Ordnance had for the last two years been carrying on the survey, and expending a grant of 100,000 l. without any distinct understanding on what scale it was actually to be completed. He hoped that the Treasury would give some assurance that they would lose no time in coming to a decision.
MR. J. WILSONsaid, the question he had been asked was, whether they were to depart from the scale adopted two years ago, without coming down and asking the sanction of the House before they adopted a plan that would be more expensive to the country. He had stated that it was not intended to extend the six-inch scale to 24 to 25½, without submitting the proposition to the House. His noble Friend (Lord Seymour) had also asked whether it was intended to go from six inches to one inch, and he had said there was no intention of doing so. What was in contemplation was, to go from six inches to a larger scale, but nothing would be done until the House had given its opinion upon the subject. The question would be decided at an early moment, and before the present Session had terminated.
MR. MONSELLsaid, in reply to the question of the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire, the sum of 35,000 l. had been expended last year upon the survey of Scotland, and 50,000 l. would be expended this year.
MR. V. SCULLYsaid, he would suggest the appointment of a Select Committee to determine the best scale. The six-inch survey had been adopted in Ireland, and they were the best maps in Europe, and the most perfect of their kind.
COLONEL BOLDEROsaid, that in Ireland the survey had been upon a six-inch scale, and the map of Ireland, as now completed, formed one of the most perfect maps in Europe. He believed a 25-inch

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scale would create nothing but confusion and expense, and he wished to know what scale would be adopted in the survey of Scotland?
MR. MONSELLsaid, the survey in Scotland was being made so as to suit any scale.
MR. ELLICEsaid, that, visiting the Isle of Lewis some time ago, he found that for two years a captain of Engineers and a detachment of Sappers and Miners had been engaged in contouring the island of Lewis, in Scotland—an island which was merely a vast bog, and fit for nothing but wild sheep. He would also remark, that Mr. Keith Johnstone, of Edinburgh, had informed him that he would undertake to publish the Ordnance maps at one-third the expense at present incurred. He therefore suggested that the whole question should go before a Committee upstairs, and that their recommendations should be adopted by the Board of Ordnance.
MR. MONSELL, in answer to the remarks of the right hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice), said, the proprietor of the island of Lewis had contributed towards the expense of the survey of that island.
MR. ELLICEsaid, he was aware that the proprietor had contributed a sum of 1,500 l.; but he should like to know what further sum had been expended in a survey which was neither of use to the proprietor nor to the inhabitants?
MR. BELLEWsaid, he wished to know if it was correct that the Ordnance maps in Ireland were much more expensive than those in England; and, if that statement was correct, he desired to know the reason why it was so?
MR. MONSELLsaid, the sheets in Ireland were sold at a lower rate than those in England.
Vote agreed to; as was also
(3.) 171,446 l., Non-effective Services. House resumed.

INNS OF COURT—LEGAL EDUCATION.
MR. NAPIERsaid, in moving for an Address to Her Majesty on this highly important subject, he thought it incumbent upon him to state to the House the reasons why he did so. There was no occasion for him to magnify the importance of the subject which he wished to submit to the consideration of the House, but he thought it right, in asking the House to adopt a measure which might affect the rights and privileges of a large and learned body, that he should fully explain the grounds upon
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which he based his proposition. The character of the learned professions was a matter of great public importance, and it was important also that the extent and quality of professional education should correspond with the general progress and enlightenment of the age. He believed there were somewhere about 800 barristers who robed at Westminster, and if they included those who were in the provinces, in Ireland, and in the various colonies, the whole number would be found to exceed 3,000, if it did not reach 4,000. Now, considering the important social position which barristers occupied, the great influence they exercised in the country, and the number of public duties they were called upon to discharge, he thought there ought to be some security that their education should be a good one, in order that the simple fact of a man having attained the degree of a barrister might be a sufficient proof to the country that he had received such a liberal and enlightened education as might qualify him for the discharge of these public duties. The interests of the law itself, as a great and noble science, should not be overlooked in considering this question. He would now refer to the evidence taken by the Commissioners appointed to examine into the state of the University of Oxford. Before that Commission Mr. S. C. Denison gave evidence of the present inefficient state of legal education, and Mr. Denison's opinion had been concurred in by Lord Denman, Baron Parke, and other eminent persons. At a public meeting of the Law Amendment Society on the 18th of June, 1851, which was presided over by a noble and learned Lord—Lord Brougham—who, throughout his whole life, had persevered in a course at once creditable to himself and advantageous to the community—at that meeting the present Solicitor General, a consistent law reformer, anxious to protect the interests of the profession to which he belonged, and, as a bencher of one of the Inns of Court, fully competent to express an opinion upon this question, moved a resolution to the following effect, which was unanimously carried:—
"That it is highly desirable that a school of law and jurisprudence should be founded in connection with the Society for Promoting the Amendment of the Law."
The hon. and learned Solicitor General, in moving that resolution, exposed the various evils attending the present want of legal education, and intimated an opinion that

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means might be provided of supplying the deficiency. He stated that—
"The law students at present are rarely instructed in that liberal knowledge of jurisprudence and comprehensive system, which forms the basis of all law."
Certainly, no one was more competent to speak with regard to its condition, and in the hon. and learned Solicitor General's opinion, in 1851, it was necessary to found a separate school of law and jurisprudence in connection with the Society for Promoting the Amendment of the Law. The same view of legal education was taken by another great authority, Lord Campbell, who, in his Life of Lord Mansfield, speaking of the false maxim, laissez rien faire, on which legal education rests, said:—
"I conceive that, in regard to the great mass of students entering a learned profession, it is necessary, by institution and discipline, to guide inexperience, to stimulate indolence, to correct the propensity to dissipation, and to have some assurance that those intrusted with defending life and property are decently well qualified for the duties which they may be called upon to discharge."
Again, in his Life of Lord Somers, Lord Campbell spoke of the great and anomalous defect in England, the want of regular training, and—
"proper examinations, to show that the aspirant is fit to be entrusted with the duties of an advocate, and qualified to fill the offices to which, as an advocate, he may be appointed."
At present there existed no test, and no condition which secured knowledge in a person called to the bar. He would admit, however, that a good deal had been done recently to afford improved opportunities for acquiring a legal education, but there was no increased obligation on students to receive the advantages offered, and much, therefore, required yet to be accomplished. A very striking instance had, he believed, occurred lately. Two persons who had the temerity to undergo an examination, were found not possessed of the qualification essential at the bar; but, nevertheless, they claimed the right of being called, having given the usual attendance at lectures. He had often observed that in that House a lawyer was at a discount. That ought not to be so. It showed that there was something wrong in the system. The public, however, had a very strong interest in the lawyer being scientifically educated, and great injury had sometimes arisen to the community from the contracted minds of gentlemen of the legal profession when they rose to be legis-
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lators or judges. One great evil, with regard to the profession, was the want of schools for supplying legal education; and the establishment of such schools was proposed as a remedy by a very high authority—Mr. Amos—whose evidence would be found in the Report of Mr. Wyse's Committee on Legal Education, appointed in 1846. He saw around him, on both sides of the House, Gentlemen belonging to the bar, occupying high and honourable positions, who were as learned and as efficient as any men in the country, and yet he knew that there was a general feeling among the community to depreciate the lawyer, the only advantage the lawyer ever had being personal and accidental, not in consequence of his profession, but in spite of it. And why was that so? It was because the security of a proper and thorough legal education did not exist. They were called honourable and learned, and yet it was thought they were narrow-minded. The public had not that opinion of the bar which such a profession ought to inspire. But, before adopting any plan which should be entirely new, he would suggest the propriety of endeavouring to reform and rectify existing institutions. If, however, the existing institutions should be found incapable of being made to answer the exigencies of the age, then, in his opinion, they ought to be swept entirely away. But if they admitted of reform, by all means let an effort be made in the first instance to effect a reformation. There could be no better reform than making an institution answer the purpose for which it was established, and so meet the requirements of the times. At present we had two great public institutions for the education of members of the bar—namely, the Universities and the Inns of Court. With regard to the Universities, Commissions to inquire into their condition had already been issued, and had been the means of collecting together much valuable information, in consequence of which many improvements might be expected. The Inns of Courts ought now to undergo the same process of purification. He did not make this proposition in any hostile spirit, but as a matter of duty, and his sole desire was to see our actual resources for the advancement of legal education honourably and usefully applied to their proper purposes. With regard to the subject of inquiry, he thought no difficulty would arise, many of the hon. Members around him having expressed their hearty concurrence in the

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proposal. There would be no difficulty in ascertaining with truth and exactness what were the resources properly applicable, and when it was seen what those resources were, a Commission of enlightened men should be placed in communication with the Inns of Court, to endeavour to have them applied to their proper purpose. He would now mention what he found the state of education at the time he was called to the bar. He remembered well having to ask experienced friends what course of reading they recommended a student to follow, for when he came to London for the purpose of eating a certain number of dinners, the mere dining was all that was required, and the opportunity thus afforded of learning anything was over a bottle of wine. Having an experienced friend, however, who had once practised at the Irish bar, he asked him, in his simplicity, what course of study he would recommend him to take up. The answer was, "If you are going to the Irish bar the best thing you can study is Joe Miller." His friend also told him that, in his early days, he had read the best books, but he got no business, and he soon found that those who cracked the best jokes made the most money and carried off business at that time. He (Mr. Napier) could not say he had taken the advice given to him, but it so happened that the London University was just opened, and Mr. Amos delivered a course of lectures, which he attended in order to see whether he could learn anything from them. All the instruction he had received while in London was from these excellent lectures and from Sir John Patteson, to whose chambers he went as a pupil, and whose friendship he was proud of to the present day. In the year 1839 the hon. and learned Member for Louth (Mr. Kennedy) founded the Dublin Law Institute, and in founding that institute the hon. Member was assisted by himself (Mr. Napier), the hon. and learned Member for Enniskillen (Mr. Whiteside), and other members of the Irish bar. Upon the foundation of that institution Mr. Justice Story wrote a letter to the hon. and learned Member for Louth, which was given at page 350 of the Report of the Committee on Legal Education, appointed in 1846. In that letter he gave, incidentally, an account of his labours; but he said:—
"I have long been persuaded that a more scientific system of legal education than that hitherto pursued is demanded by the wants of the age, and
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the progress of jurisprudence. The old mode of solitary study is utterly inadequate to give an accurate knowledge of the law, and is a mere waste of time and labour. I am aware that any change is likely to meet much opposition from those who are accustomed to the old system, partly from prejudice, and partly from a desire to resist innovations. If Parliament does not aid your efforts, I shall indulge bare hopes of your ultimate success."
Professor Greenleaf also expressed an opinion that the existing system of legal education should be put upon a better foundation; and, surely, the opinions of such eminent men were entitled to great consideration. Upon Mr. Wyse's Committee, which sat in 1846, there were several eminent members of the bar—among others, the right hon. and learned Member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole), and his (Mr. Napier's) hon. Colleague (Mr. G. A. Hamilton). That Committee, after examining a number of eminent men, reported in strong terms against the system then in force, and the utter futility of voluntary lectures. It had always been the case that lectures merely afforded means of acquiring knowledge to a few men who, under any system, would rise into eminence, and utterly failed in the great object of a sound education for the general body of the bar. The Committee stated in their Report, that the evidence as to the futility of mere voluntary lectures was conclusive, unless attended by examination; and they recommended the institution of a first examination, to qualify for admission to the Inns of Court, and of a second examination to qualify for admission to the bar, the examination to be obligatory. The Committee examined, among other witnesses, the father of his hon. and learned Friend opposite (Mr. Phillimore), Mr. Amos, Lord Campbell, and Lord Brougham, and they referred also to the practice of other countries. In Germany, it appeared, the most stringent examination was required before men were admitted to the bar. In that respect England was behind every other country. That ought not to be so; there ought to be some real bonâ fide test, not of mere forms and names which signified nothing, but of general and comprehensive knowledge. The benchers were in this position—there were a number of Inns of Court, and if the benchers of one particular Inn determined to impose a test before admitting men to the bar, the students would go to another Inn to avoid the examination. It might be said that competition between the Inns of Court

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would effect the object desired; but this competition between them was not which Inn should impose the best tests, but which should impose the least. Not long since, the Inner Temple required an examination, and, instead of availing themselves of it, the students went to the other Inns to enter themselves. Unless harmony of action could be secured amongst the Inns of Court, the action of any particular Inn was useless. It was even doubted by Lord Brougham whether the Inns of Court had the power of imposing an examination without the help and authority of the Legislature. Lord Brougham also intimated that if the benchers insisted on compulsory examination to admit to the bar, they might be attacked in a court of law as exceeding their powers, for he thought that every one who entered had an inchoate right to be called to the bar without examination. Lord Campbell differed from the noble and learned Lord in this opinion, but some legislative interference was absolutely necessary. The voluntary course had been tried. Persons might be attracted for a time to attend lectures and examinations in the case of a popular lecturer, but they soon absented themselves, and no efficient legal education could be secured by this means. The Inns of Court were clearly a species of University for the purpose of training young men to the study of the law. The compulsory attendance of the Irish students originated in this view; for the very ground upon which Irish students were compelled by the 33rd of Henry VIII. to keep terms in one of the English Inns of Court was, because they might thus acquire a knowledge of English law. Giving the benchers full credit for a desire to promote legal education, it could hardly be denied that the condition of the Inns of Court, and the provision for legal education, were far short of the requirements of the age. The Inns of Court had ample revenues and large accommodation, and they received fees and dues from the students, in return for which it was important they should make public provision for their education. There was a peculiar class of men who, without private means, had to fight their own way to the bar. They were the best class of men, because they got on by force of their industry and talent, and it was desirable that this class, who had no independent means, should be aided and encouraged. There was another class, who were intelligent but not industrious,
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and they required guidance and assistance. The general character of the bar would be secured by the systematic character of the education they received, and an enlightened spirit would pervade them, such as would stamp our jurisprudence with a character commensurate with the wants of the times. He contended that the Inns of Court were bound by public trust to supply that kind of education, and, failing to do so, the interposition of Parliament by a Commission was actually needed. The Inns of Court had their origin in the separation of the common and canon law, the latter of which was taught in the Universities, but complaints being made that the lay practitioners were illiterate and venal, in the 18th Edw. I. a Commission of inquiry was issued. In the following year (1292) representation was made to Parliament, and the King, with the sanction of Parliament, issued a second Commission for these purposes—1, to appoint attorneys from every county to practise in the courts; and 2, to provide pupils to study the common law, and secure its continuance. The substantial object was to secure, by a system of training, the keeping up of lay practitioners of common law. The students were styled in the Commission apprenticii libentes addiscere. In the time of Edward III. the Inner and Middle Temple and Gray's Inn were founded; the Inns of Chancery were assigned for the younger students; the Inns of Court for the governors and higher orders. He might adduce a great deal of evidence that the Inns of Court were a public foundation and trust. Fortescue described them as follows:—
"1. Inns of Chancery, in which younger students began, learning and studying the elements and principles of the law, who, profiting therein as they grew to ripeness, were then admitted to the greater inns of the same study, called Inns of Courts. Barons and knights, and other grandees, and noblemen of the kingdom, were accustomed to place their children, though they did not desire to have them thoroughly learned in the law, or to get their living by its practice."
The Inns of Court were called by Fortescue the "Lawyer's University;" there was advancement in them for the student in a regular system of collegiate gradation, and proficiency was tested and rewarded. They were, as Fortescue described, designed for the reception, lodging, and education of professors and students of the law. Every degree and office was then the reward of services performed—1st, mootemen; and after eight years, 2nd,

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utter barristers; and after twelve years, 3rd, antients or benchers, who performed the duties of readers, and from whom were selected the attorney and solicitor general, the sergeants, and the judges. The statute of Henry VIII., requiring the Irish students to come to London, set forth the reasons:—
"No person can do or minister any thing or things in any of the Four Courts of Dublin which hath been used to be done by one learned, or taken to be learned, in the King's laws, but such person or persons as bath or shall be for the same at one time or several times by the space of years complete at the least, demurrant and restant in one of the Inns of Court within the realm of England, studying, practising, or endeavouring themselves the best they can to come to the true knowledge and judgment of the said laws"
In 1574, in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, it would appear there was a falling off, and a remarkable Order in Council was issued for the government and reform of the Inns of Court. The Order in Council, by giving minute directions about the chambers and the admissions of students, showed that even in those days the Inns of Court required a little dusting. This order was signed by Bacon, Burghley, Sussex, Leicester, Walsingham, and the most eminent statesmen of the day. Even thus early in Elizabeth's time it appeared that the Inns of Court had been falling away from the objects for which they were instituted, and that they required public surveillance. In the thirty-third year of Elizabeth there was an order of the Judges, reciting the falling off of the readings and mootings, and reprehending "the excessive and sumptuous charges of the reader, which must be au utter overthrow to study and the learning of the law." The reader was ordered from that time not to allow more wine to be spent at his reading than two hogsheads and a half. In the beginning of the reign of James I. (in the year 1609) a grant was made in perpetuity to the Inner and Middle Temple, from the Crown, and the trust was "for the lodging, reception, and education of the professors and students of the laws of this realm." Lord Coke, in the preface to his third book of Reports, described the four Inns as four famous colleges, each with at least twenty readers, thrice so many utter barristers, and eight or nine score young gentlemen studying law; and Lord Coke called it "a famous University." There was also an Order in Council in the time of James I., which recited:—
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"For that the institution of these societies was ordained chiefly for the profession of the law, and, in a second degree, for the education of the sons and youth of riper years of the nobility and gentry of this realm."
In the Report of Mr. Wyse's Committee, in 1846, it was stated as to the Inns of Court, that they were—
"Originally founded and endowed for these very objects, and thus requiring no innovation, but such modifications only as existing society may demand to fit them for places of special legal education."
The sixteenth Resolution of Mr. Wyse's Committee set forth that no innovation was required in the Inns of Court; all that was necessary was to revert to the original objects of this institution. It was clear that the design of the Inns of Court was that by a course of regular and gradual training, they should secure the proper education of men who were going to the bar, and that they should test their efficiency by a system of examinations. Lord Bacon, with his profound and comprehensive mind, saw the defects that existed in them in his time, and also lamented the want of systematic education at our Universities for law and public life. He advised that a chair for the teaching of law should be founded in each of our Universities, and liberally endowed. He was desirous that an education more especially should be fitted for the training of men for the law and public life, and he suggested the laying of a deep and comprehensive basis—"the model of a great building." It was most desirable that men should lay a broad and deep foundation of general training before they came to the special knowledge required by their profession. That training and this knowledge were not supplied satisfactorily at the Universities or at the Inns of Court. The great defect of education in recent times had been its too technical character, and the study of the law had been very happily described as going into a pleader's office for two or three years to learn to tell a plain story in very unintelligible language. Thus the education began with the acquirement of knowledge of a narrow and technical character, and this it was which had caused the profession to be depreciated in the public estimation. The public saw mysticism, delay, expense, and technical procedure in the conduct of suits, and they supposed that there was nothing liberal or enlightened in the profession of the law. The Universities delayed to carry out the suggestion of Lord Bacon, and it was not until the Vinerian Profes-

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sorship was established at Oxford that a beginning was made. The lectures of Mr. Justice Blackstone had, by their clearness, high cultivation, and classic taste, secured the gratitude of posterity: and the Vinerian Professorship led to the foundation, in 1761, of a professorship of English law in Trinity College, Dublin. The reasons stated for founding it were:—
"The great advantages to the University and Kingdom which had been found to arise from the Oxford Professorship, and because, among the more polished nations, the study of municipal laws ought always to be held in the highest honour, as being not only the great ornament of the nobles and princes of the State, but also especially necessary to its safety."
At present, the only qualification for being called to the bar was that a man should eat and drink and be able to write his name; and yet barristers of six and ten years' standing were declared by that House qualified to fill various public situations. The noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) in his new Reform Bill proposed to treat the Inns of Court as a University, and the barristers as its graduates. There never was a time, therefore, when it was more desirable to give reality to these names and forms, and to found these privileges upon real education. The University of Dublin had done a great deal, and had concurred with the benchers of the King's Inns in making provision for the education of students. The Legal Education Committee, appointed by the Council of the King's Inns, said, in their report:—
"We learn that France, Italy, Russia, all the Kingdoms and States of Germany, and the United States of North America, provide public means of legal education, by lectures and examinations, and require all candidates for the profession of an advocate to avail themselves of those advantages. The same system has, of late years, been adopted by Scotland."
He thought the gentlemen of the Scotch bar were, as a body, more liberally educated than the members of either the English or Irish bars. They did not set about acquiring technical knowledge until they had studied the civil law and laid a good foundation of general knowledge, and they were still endeavouring to improve the education of their law students. The Dublin Education Committee showed that the want of a course of legal instruction by lectures and examinations had operated very injuriously upon English jurisprudence. They continued:—
"This deficiency may be traced in text books, in the arguments of the bar, and even in the judgments of the bench, producing an undue and in-
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creasing preference of memory to reason—of technicality to science—and of the mere citation of cases to the development of legal principles. They consider this growing tendency to be disparaging to the law and its professors, and prejudicial to the administration of justice, and that its remedy lies in the inculcation of a sound elementary system, whereby the mind, commencing with the first principles of the science, shall be furnished with means at once to test and to classify all subsequent acquisitions of knowledge, instead of being left as the student, in a great measure, has hitherto been, to collect principles for himself, as best he can, among the infinite details and ever increasing mass of thousands of cases."
The Dublin benchers proposed to introduce substantial improvements, but they were hindered by the arrangements in England. He had received, however, communications from the late and the present professor of law in Dublin, in which they expressed a confident opinion that voluntary lectures without examinations were not sufficient. There would always be a few more earnest and more industrious than others; but for the great body, unless there was established a system of periodical examinations, and a final examination to test their proficiency, nothing would be done commensurate with the wants of the times. But it would be said that many gentlemen were now called to the bar who did not intend to practise, and that these gentlemen would not like to go through the compulsory examination. But he saw from the Oxford University Report that there was every probability of a great improvement in University education, and, although the attendance upon the lectures of University professors of law would not complete the education of a young lawyer, yet it might do a great deal under University discipline, in laying a deep and broad foundation. What was wanted was that University students, especially those who intended to follow the profession of the law, should receive at the Universities such a knowledge of the principles of mental and moral philosophy, civil law, and general jurisprudence, as was necessary to complete the education of English gentlemen, and enable them to take a part in public life with credit to themselves and advantage to the community. A Commission could confer with all parties, and advise a general plan. It would, of course, be necessary that the Commission should be composed of men whose names would command public confidence. If such a Commission would place themselves in communication with the Universities and the Inns of Court, they might

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carry out a harmonious plan between the Universities on the one hand and the Inns of Court on the other, from which the greatest advantages might be derived. In Ireland the greatest harmony existed between the University which he had the honour to represent, and the King's Inns, but they were hampered by the regulations requiring the Irish students to come to England, where they had nothing to do but to eat a certain number of dinners. There was a difference of opinion as to whether Irish students should be required to come to England. For himself, all the legal knowledge he had obtained was in England, and, from intercourse, his feelings were much with England; but he could not attach any value to merely requiring an Irish student to come over and eat dinners at one of the Inns of Court. He did not think it would cement the bond of union between the two countries. It was rather regarded as a mark of provincial dependence than friendly intercourse for the purposes of enlightened education. At this time, when they considered the great changes that were going forward, and likely to go forward, in the structure of their laws, if ever there was a time, it was the present, when they ought to teach jurisprudence more as a science. They were on the eve of important changes in the system, which required to be considered in an enlightened, liberal, and comprehensive spirit; and also, from the greater intercourse between different nations, international law bad become an important part of a lawyer's education. The struggles of students under the existing system, and especially of Irish students, were very great. He would take the case of the late Lord Plunket, than whom a man of more splendid abilities or more vigorous intellect never came from Ireland to this country. His early life had been a struggle with difficulties. He had been obliged, at great inconvenience, to keep his terms in England before he was called to the Irish bar; and yet when Mr. Canning offered him an English peerage and the Mastership of the Rolls, the English lawyers interposed, and rejected him as an Irish lawyer. What must have been his feelings, or the feelings of his countrymen, under the infliction of such an injustice? He was convinced that they must have the Universities doing their duty by having chairs properly endowed, and he thought, when they came to consider a complete plan, in conjunction with the Universities, they ought to try if they could have law
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scholarships for those students who had no means otherwise to advance themselves. They would thus encourage and develope the most important capabilities of the country—its intellectual and moral resources. How important would it have been to Lord Eldon to have had assistance of that kind. How important would it have been to Lord Plunket, and such men, who had to struggle through difficulties in early life. If they desired to put the profession upon a right basis—to give it weight and influence—they must do much to improve the course of education. By giving to both countries a sound and harmonious system of education, they would unite them much more closely than by dragging the Irish students to this country to go through a course of dinners, when their time and their money might be much better employed at home. Next to theology, nothing was more important than the science of law. No greater duty rested upon the Legislature than to make the knowledge of it commensurate with the requirements and demands of the age; and that object could not be obtained unless they adopted a system which would make its students real masters of their honourable profession. He begged to move the Address of which he had given notice.
MR. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCHseconded the Motion.
Motion made and Question proposed—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to appoint a Commission to inquire into the arrangements in the Inns of Court for promoting the study of Law and Jurisprudence, the revenues properly applicable, and the means most likely to secure a systematic and sound education for students of Law, and provide satisfactory test of fitness for admission to the Bar."
The ATTORNEY-GENERALsaid, he was anxious to take the earliest possible opportunity of stating that he gave his most ready and cordial assent to the proposition of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. He thought it quite unnecessary to go into the origin of these institutions, or to follow the right hon. and learned Gentleman through the elaborate details into which he had gone. It was quite enough, he thought, that these Inns of Court had had committed to them the provision, superintendence, and control of the legal profession, to entitle that House, if desired, to enter into a thorough inquiry into their constitution, and the means they possessed. He did not hesitate to state the country bad a deep interest in the pro-

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per maintenance of the legal profession. There were none of us, from the highest to the lowest, who might not occasionally require to have resort to their services, and from their body were selected men of ability, to whom was entrusted the administration of the law. He could not, therefore, have the slightest doubt that the constitution and resources of these societies were matters of public concern, and in which the public were greatly interested. On the other hand, he did not anticipate, from the appointment of a Commission which it was proposed to pray Her Majesty to grant, to see those great results which the right hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to expect. If the present state of legal education was such as it was when the right hon. and learned Gentleman first became a member of the legal profession, he should quite agree it was a matter of paramount necessity that such a Commission should be issued. But the right hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to overlook all that had been recently done to put legal education on a better footing. As to founding professorships, what was the fact? Why, in the last two years, five professorships had been founded by the Inns of Courts—one on civil law, one on common law, one on the law of real property, one on equity, and lastly, one on legal history and constitutional law—and these professorships were by no means inadequately supplied with funds. The examination which had also been instituted, though not made compulsory and necessary to a call to the bar, was a great step in that direction. A great experiment was being tried, and there could be no doubt the governing bodies of the Inns of Court had the most anxious desire to place legal education on a sound and satisfactory footing. When they saw what was doing, and when they saw the names (he would not mention any who were Members of that House) of the Master of the Rolls, the Vice-Chancellor Sir William Page Wood, Lord St. Leonards, Lord Justice Knight Bruce, appended to the resolutions on the subject, he need not say much to convince the House the matter was in admirable hands. He should mention also that studentships had been founded, one to be given upon examination in every term, of 50 l., and to last for three years. These things had been done within a very recent period, and when he mentioned the names of the individuals who had taken it in hand, he thought that was quite sufficient to sa-
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tisfy the House the matter was in safe keeping. Still the right hon. and learned Gentleman thought that the Commission should issue. Be it so, At the same time he did not think it would conduce anything, more to the result of the labours of those in whose hands it rested, with this exception, that it would have the result and effect of dissipating a vast deal of prejudice and misconception as to the revenues of these societies and their application to legal education. He was happy to say there was but one feeling on this subject. The society to which he bad the honour to belong, and of which he was a bencher—the Middle Temple—authorised him to state they should be most happy if Her Majesty granted the inquiry, and they would give every possible information and every possible assistance to the Commission. He was aware that a similar resolution had been come to by the Inner Temple, and he had only just now been requested by the hon. and learned Member for East Suffolk (Sir F. Kelly), who was a member of Lincoln's Inn, to state that the same feeling prevailed, so far as he had been able to ascertain, in it, though there had been no opportunity to have a meeting of the benchers. He had no doubt every assistance would be given to this Commission on the part of the legal profession. They would most cheerfully receive any suggestions, and would readily take advantage of any suggestions far improving and elevating the education and general character of the bar. Ho must say, at this time of day, when the Universities had been subjected to a searching inquiry, it would ill become the Inns of Court to offer the slightest resistance. He hoped that all similar institutions would in the same way have the light and air let in upon them. It did them good. Oxford and Cambridge had submitted, and he hoped, when it came to the turn of the University of Dublin, the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier) would be as ready to submit it to inquiry.
MR. R. J. PHILLIMOREsaid, he entirely concurred in thinking that, unless examination was made compulsory, no good would be done by lectures. They had a strong proof of it in the fact that Sir James Macintosh delivered a course of the most beautiful lectures ever delivered in any country in the world, which would live as long as the language in which it was written, and yet, after the introductory essay, it would appear that he had not succeeded

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in attracting an audience which induced him to continue his lectures. In the sketch of the history of jurisprudence which the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier) had given, be thought he had not dealt fairly with that branch of the profession to which he (Mr. R. Phillimore) had long had the honour of belonging. But for the courts of civil and ecclesiastical law, so often and so ignorantly abused, the study of general jurisprudence would have been extinct in this country. Let it be remembered, without going further back, that this branch had given to the world Lord Stowell, who was a powerful illustration of the advantages which attended the cultivation of the science of jurisprudence. That learned Lord had studied the principles of jurisprudence in almost every language, and was regarded by all nations as one of the greatest authorities who ever lived. He heartily wished his right hon. Friend success in the cause which he had so ably advocated.
THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he should be sorry to permit this Motion to pass without offering a few observations, and, in the first place, he wished to express the gratitude which he felt the profession, and he was sure the country, owed to the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite for having brought forward this subject, and for having illustrated it as he had done. He could not, however, agree with his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General in the conclusion at which he had arrived, that the matter was one which ought to be left entirely in the hands of the Inns of Court. It was undoubtedly true that those learned bodies had done something in the way of reform, but what had been effected was mainly through the students themselves, who were very anxious to obtain instruction, and who were endeavouring, as far as possible, to reap the benefit of the institutions which had been founded, and which, unquestionably, of late had been placed on an enlarged basis. It was now eight or nine years since he had first called the attention of the Inns of Court to the neglect of an important duty which he had thought it was incumbent upon them to discharge; and in 1852, a Committee had been appointed which had taken steps towards the adoption of a large and more liberal system, although that which had hitherto been done was by no means adequate to the wants of the students. But if ever there was a nation in which legal education was a public duty
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and a public necessity, that nation was England, because by the institutions of this country the people were invited to take part in the administration of the law, and it was their bounden duty, therefore, to provide them with the means by which they might become qualified to do so, by obtaining a general knowledge of the principles of the law. The Universities, for a long time, had neglected this duty; and the Inns of Court; he was sorry to say, had shared in that neglect. The only thing which he regretted was, that the terms of this Motion were not more comprehensive than they were, for he should like to see the Inns of Court erected into one great Legal University, not only for the education and instruction of persons who intended to follow the law as a profession, but for the purpose of co-operating with the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and London, in the education of the public at large. He hoped to see the time when, in the great scheme for the improvement of the seats of learning and the courts of the country, there would be found departments in which a degree—manifesting the attainment of some knowledge and some experience in the law, and which degree would be requisite to give a position at the bar—should be granted as the reward of study and genius. He, therefore, hoped the time was come when, being about to introduce into the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge a system of general education in law and jurisprudence, the Inns of Court might be erected into an institution which might be the means of carrying further and perfecting what the Universities would commence. The Universities at present could only admit a limited number of students, and he believed that large numbers would be found who would very gladly resort to the schools of law if they were established on the basis on which they ought to be established in this great country. It was with some shame that he had ascertained the unfavourable position we were in contrasted with France. In Paris alone, the number of professors reading in the different departments of the law, with a view to the education of the people at large, was more than three times the number lately established in this country. Nor was this confined to Paris, for there were no fewer than eight municipal towns which possessed, to a certain extent, either local universities or large public schools in which the study of the law was systematically pursued. In this country we had nothing

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of the kind, and he thought the time was come when we ought to have it. He should be sorry, however, if that House or the country should believe that the Inns of Court continued in a state of insensibility, inactivity, or indolence in reference to this important subject. He believed they were convinced that they were great national institutions, having duties and obligations corresponding with the rights which they enjoyed; but he thought that the way in which those duties and obligations ought to be discharged was a proper subject to be inquired into by that House, and that, if it were necessary, additional powers should be given them, in order to enable them to discharge them with efficiency. There could not, in his opinion, be a more laudable occasion for an Address to the Crown, than the subject which this Motion involved. He begged to repeat his thanks to the right hon. and learned Member for proposing it, and he trusted it would be considered in the proper quarter whether it could not be made available for greater ends than those which the precise terms in which it was drawn up appeared at present to contemplate. He should mention, in justice to the Inns of Court, that, in addition to nine studentships which were awarded after examination, and each of which was tenable for three years, and was of the value of fifty guineas a-year, there were also given, by the council of legal education over which he had the honour to preside, certificates of honour, which conferred upon the holders some advantages. Some basis, therefore, had been already established, but the great essential of compulsory education, of which he had always been the advocate, but in reference to which he had not obtained support, was necessary for the perfection of the system. In addition to that, he thought a greater number of professors, with emoluments which would enable them to devote themselves exclusively to the business of education, was imperatively required. The state of the law of this country, on many occasions, was such as to cause great regret at the limited knowledge the English barrister possessed on many points which became the object of inquiry, and whoever was conversant with the administration of the law with respect to railways when they first became regularly established, must have observed with regret and with shame that there was an entire want of knowledge with regard to the law as it affected those companies; the
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consequence was, the adjudication of cases in the courts of law first set in one current and then in another, introducing a variety of conflicting decisions with respect to suck cases, and a degree of uncertainty and confusion greatly to be deplored. This state of things was to be attributed in a great measure to that want of instruction in original principles which, he must say, had hitherto been characteristic of English jurisconsults, but which he hoped would no longer continue to exist.
MR. BOWYERsaid that, being one of the readers to the Inn to which the hon. and learned Solicitor General belonged, it gave him much pleasure to be able to state that many of the improvements introduced had resulted from the labours of that hon. and learned Gentleman. He was glad to find that the hon. and learned Solicitor General dissented from the opinion expressed by the hon. and learned Attorney General, that the matter was one which might be left to the Inns of Court themselves, although it was a fit subject to be inquired into by the House of Commons. He said this because he was convinced that nothing great would be done so long as people were satisfied to make the most of what had been done already. Having regard to the prejudices and obstacles which had to be overcome, he was surprised that so much had been accomplished. At the same time, he must contend that very little bad been accomplished after all. In estimating its importance, they must have regard to the objects for which these societies were intended—to the amount which they had set apart for the purposes of education—and to the proportion which that amount bore to the whole of the resources at their command. They were told that the revenues had been overrated, but they had had no means of judging, as the amount had hitherto been kept secret from the public and the bar; but he believed it would be found quite sufficient, not only to remunerate readers more handsomely, but to dispense with the fee of five guineas paid by students on their admission to the lectures, which fee, he contended, was a great hardship upon young men, and operated as a discouragement to persons anxious to obtain a legal education. He would point to Germany and other countries as affording a great contrast to ours with respect to the study of jurisprudence, a science which, in his opinion, it was of the greatest importance to cultivate. If they had

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a body of professors they would be found of the greatest service in a subject which more and more engaged the attention of Parliament—he meant the proper revision of Acts of Parliament. A body of professors, competent to assist in drawing up Acts, and to point out what in each case would be the best method of attaining the particular object the Legislature had in view, would be of the greatest use. They could be always referred to by the Government would render assistance to the law officers of the Crown, and might be referred to for their opinion in matters of public importance, or on any difficult points of international law. He thought there ought to be a thorough examination into the revenues of the Inns of Court, and that the public ought to be informed, not only what they amounted to, but how they were applied, in order that the object for which these Inns of Court were established—namely, the promotion of legal education among the people—should be secured.
MR. V. SCULLYsaid, that the object of this Commission would be, that any illusion as to the enormous revenues of the Inns of Court would be dissipated. They would know what those revenues were. If they were adequate they would be applied in a proper manner, and if they were not adequate for the purposes fur which they were intended, they might be made so. He hoped the result would be a system of examination attended by rewards to students who had distinguished themselves, and also by disqualification if that were necessary. They ought also to have a proper system of legal education, such as that the hon. and learned Solicitor General had expressed his approval of, and he trusted that the recommendations of this Commission would not be allowed to be dormant, but would be at once acted upon. He wished to enforce on the hon. and learned Solicitor General the necessity of completing the reform on this question at once, so as to render no supplemental measures necessary.
MR. HADFIELDsaid, he earnestly hoped that the proposed measure might be one of a liberal tendency, as he thought the time had arrived when the major part of Her Majesty's subjects should be no longer excluded from these educational institutions, but that free access should be given to all who claimed to be instructed. He hoped, therefore, some plan would be adopted to throw open the Universities,
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and that that reform would extend to the removal of all tests and difficulties which at present existed, whereby many persons who possessed conscientious scruples were prevented from taking the benefit of those institutions.
MR. CRAUFURDsaid, he was rejoiced to find so great a unanimity on the part of the hon. and learned Gentlemen who had spoken on the subject with respect to the necessity of these reforms; and he considered it was greatly to the credit of the Government that they had so readily acceded to them. Notwithstanding, however, the eulogium which had been passed by a right hon. and learned Gentleman upon the Inns of Court, it was his opinion that no corporations in the kingdom had committed grosser breaches of trust than those same Inns; for he found, on reference to history, that they were founded for the purposes of lodging students and instructing them in the laws of England. It had been stated by the hon. Member for Dundalk (Mr. Bowyer) that they had no means of arriving at any judgment as to the revenues; but, from a return which he had moved for last Session, he was able to form some approximate idea, although he could not state the exact sum. From the information furnished by that return, he was able to make a calculation which led him to estimate that the revenue derived annually from the rent of chambers alone by the four Inns of Court—namely, the Inner Temple, the Middle Temple, Lincoln's Inn, and Gray's Inn—amounted to no less a sum than 87,680 l. per annum; which was all originally derived from the ground they held in trust for the use of the law students, and for which land they only paid a nominal sum. How then did they discharge their trust properly when they demanded such an immense sum of money for chambers that the loss from those unoccupied he estimated at 1,200 l. a year. They also charged expensive fees on the granting of the degree of barrister, and demanded, besides, from each student fees to the amount of 35 l., in addition to the 100 l. caution money deposited as security while the students were eating their terms, the interest of which was gained by them. He calculated that, from all sources, they derived a revenue amounting to nearly 100,000 l. a year—and yet from that amount they only set apart for the purposes of legal education a sum of 3,000 l. a year. It was his belief that the Com-

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mission would lead to results which would be important not only to the profession, but to the public at large. His only regret was, that it did not appear to be sufficiently comprehensive to enable the Commissioners to sift thoroughly the whole conduct of these Inns of Court, and the way in which their trusts had been discharged.
MR. NAPIERsaid, he wished to correct a misapprehension under which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General, who certainly ought not to be supposed to know as much about Ireland as England, seemed to labour. The University of Dublin had made no objection to the appointment of a Commission, which moreover had actually requested their opinion. No other University in the kingdom had gone so far in the way of voluntary reform as the University of Dublin.
Motion agreed to.

PAYMENT OF WAGES (HOSIERY).
SIR HENRY HALFORDmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to restrain stoppages from the payment of wages in the hosiery manufacture.
MR. HUMEsaid, he had no objection to the introduction of the Bill—to which, he understood, the Government had given its assent—with the understanding, however, that it should be referred to the same Select Committee to which another Bill, introduced by the hon. Member for Walsall (Mr. C. Forster), for the amendment of the Truck Acts, was about to be referred, that so the whole subject might be investigated.
MR. FITZROYsaid, it was intended that the two Bills should go to the same Committee, and the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir H. Halford) had concurred in that arrangement.
MR. CRAUFURDsaid, unless the reference to a Select Committee were to take place before the second reading, he should oppose the Bill at this stage.
SIR JOSHUA WALMSLEYsaid, he understood that the Bill referred to a particular manufacture and a particular locality. He had had communications with a number of persons connected with this trade, and he could assure the House that all they desired was, that the whole subject should be fully and fairly investigated by a Committee. He was glad to hear, therefore, that the hon. Baronet had acquiesced in the suggestions which had been made by his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose to refer the Bill to a Select Committee.
MR. WILKINSONsaid, he would admit that there might be some pressure and some cause of complaint, but he did not think that this could be remedied by legislation, and he would only consent to the introduction of the Bill on the understanding that there should be a very searching inquiry.
MR. FITZROYsaid, his understanding certainly was that the Bill was to be referred to a Select Committee after, and not before, the second reading. He did not think that there could be any necessity for a general inquiry into the question of truck, because that question had been very fully investigated in the year 1842, by a Committee composed of some of the best men in that House. Nothing since then had arisen to render a fresh Committee necessary. What he was directed to inform the hon. Baronet who introduced this Motion was, that the Government were prepared to consent to the introduction of the Bill, with the intention of referring it to the Committee in question. He was not prepared to consent to a Committee on the subject, which might have the effect of throwing the matter over the whole Session.
Leave given.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Henry Halford, Sir Joshua Walmsley, and Mr. Packe.

SMALL ARMS.
MR. GRENVILLE BERKELEYsaid, in the absence of his hon. Friend the Clerk of the Ordnance (Mr. Mousell), he had to move the appointment of a Select Committee to consider the cheapest, most expeditious, and most efficient mode of providing small arms for Her Majesty's service.
LORD DUDLEY STUARTsaid, that this was not a local question merely affecting Birmingham, for it would also affect London, where there were eighteen houses engaged in the manufacture of small arms, and employing from 1,000 to 2,000 operatives. The London manufacturers complained that they had had no opportunity afforded them by the Government of showing what they could do, and that their establishments had not been inspected by the Ordnance officers, nor had any measures been taken to ascertain whether they were able to supply arms or not. Those who objected to the establishment of a Royal manufactory of arms did so on the ground that the Government, could not supply arms either at so cheap a rate or of so good a quality, by any Royal

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manufactory, as they could be by the Unfettered industry of the country. He approved of the appointment of a Committee, but he hoped it would be a fair Committee, and he would venture to say that no Committee would be satisfactory to the manufacturers or to that House which did not include the name of his noble friend the Member for Totness (Lord Seymour).
MR. HUMEsaid, this question had been argued the other night as if the Government had never attempted any experiment of the kind; but in 1808 a Government manufactory of small arms was established, upon which, up to 1811, no less than 66,000 l. had been expended, and that manufactory was abandoned in consequence of the recommendation of a Commission declaring the impolicy of maintaining it.
Motion agreed to.
The House adjourned at eight minutes before Six o'clock.