Sitting of 22 February 1854

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Medical Practitioners (No. 2); Transportations (Ireland).

UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD—QUESTION.
MR. BLACKETTsaid, the House had, no doubt, seen in the newspapers a peti-
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tion containing the draught of a new constitution for the University of Oxford as proposed by the authorities of the University. He wished, in consequence, to ask the noble Lord the Member for London whether that proposed scheme had been submitted to Her Majesty's Government, and whether the Government intended to sanction it?
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: Sir, let me first say, in answer to the question of the hon. Gentleman, that I think the Hebdomadal Board of Oxford deserve credit for the pains they have taken to explain their scheme for the improvement of the constitution of the University of Oxford; but, with regard to the petition to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, I have to say that Her Majesty's Government, having taken the proposed constitution into consideration, have thought it their duty to come to the decision—and my noble Friend near me, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, has signified the same to the Chancellor of the University—that Her Majesty could not be advised to assent to the proposal for granting a licence in favour of the draught of the constitution as proposed by the Hebdomadal Board.
MR. WALPOLEsaid, he should be glad to know whether the communications which had passed between the Secretary of State and the University and Colleges would be laid on the table of the House?
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I think I stated some days ago that the correspondence would be laid on the table of the House when completed, and prior to the discussion on the subject.

MR. SMITH O'BRIEN—QUESTION.
MR. H. BEAMISHsaid, he wished to ask the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether there was any truth in a rumour which had been for some time in circulation, to the effect that the clemency of the Crown was about to be extended to Mr. Smith O'Brien? He had no hesitation in saying that if that rumour were true it would give universal satisfaction in Ireland.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, in answer to the question of my hon. Friend, I have to state that the matter to which he has adverted has been under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. The facts appear to be, that while some of those persons who were transported with Mr. Smith O'Brien have thought fit to break their parole, and have escaped from

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the place of their destination, Mr. Smith O'Brien himself, whatever might have been his faults and guilt, has acted like a gentleman, and has not taken advantage of opportunities for escape of which, if he had been a less honourable man, he might have availed himself. It is, therefore, the intention of Her Majesty's Government to advise the Crown to extend to Mr. Smith O'Brien the means of placing himself in the same situation, by an act of clemency on the part of the Crown, in which those other persons have placed themselves by a violation of the pledges which they had given.

RUSSIA AND THE PORTE—QUESTION.
On the bringing up the Report of the Committee of Supply,
MR. HUMEsaid, that he had not addressed the House during the late discussion, as he was unwilling to interrupt the proceedings, but he could not allow these estimates to be disposed of without stating that this was the first time since he had been in Parliament that he had not taken part in the question of voting the number of men for the Army or Navy. He had felt strongly the situation in which the country was placed, and the difficulties which had been imposed upon Her Majesty's Government, and it appeared to him, after the unfair manner in which charges had been brought against the members of the Administration, that those who, like himself, belonged to no factious party, were called on to state their candid and honest opinion upon the subject. He thought that the Government, so far from being open to ensure for haying exhausted every means of maintaining peace, deserved the thanks of their country, and of every one who was shocked and alarmed at the horrors of war, for their endeavours to avoid it. Even if there had been any apparent neglect in their conduct, he should have been disposed to overlook such a circumstance, when he saw that they had been animated by a sincere desire to promote the public good. He was one of those who were of opinion that, in reference to what had passed in relation to this question, the conduct of the Government ought not to be too closely criticised, and, upon carefully going through all the documents of which the House was now in possession on this subject, he was bound to say that Her Majesty's Government, as well as the Government by which they had been preceded, bad done everything in their power to keep
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aloof from the quarrels of the Latin and Greek Churches. That was, he considered, very wise and proper. They had evinced, as far as he could judge, an earnest desire to bring to a satisfactory conclusion the dispute between Russia and Turkey without having recourse to war. So far was he, therefore, from thinking the attacks directed against the Government to be well founded, that he gave them his honest thanks for having acted as they had acted, At the same time he believed that they had been very much deceived in placing confidence—and he could not blame them for it—in a Government which had for many years been acting in cordial alliance with England. He could not blame them for placing confidence in the statements, both oral and written, of the Ambassadors as well as of the Emperor of Russia. He had no hesitation in saying that they had been deceived, but the shame was not on them, but on the deceiver. Under these circumstances he gave them his hearty thanks, although he regretted to find that we were once more about to land troops on the continent of Europe. He was prepared, however, to support, by our Navy, to the fullest extent, what he considered to be the honour of the country, and not only to support the honour of the country—that he held to be an empty word—but to resist those aggressions which Russia had gradually been making on the neighbouring countries, and to prevent her from accomplishing objects which he feared would be dangerous to the general liberties of Europe. It was on that ground he thought that Her Majesty's Government had been compelled to take the course they had taken. Although we were placed at the extreme western verge of Europe, still, as our commerce pervaded the whole world, and as the liberties of mankind depended in a very great degree on the maintenance of the liberties of England, he could not think we were to be blamed for the part we had taken in that question. With regard to the estimates, he considered the increase of 13,000 men to our naval forces a very moderate increase as compared with that which had been expected, and he felt bound to add that, considering the increase in the number of men for the Army and Navy, the addition to the national expenditure was much less than might have been anticipated, and it would no doubt have been greater if it had not been for the anxious endeavours of the Government to practise a rigid economy

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while they added to our forces. He, therefore, thought that the measures taken by the Government were fit and proper; and the arrangements on the part of this country for opposing the encroachments of a barbarous power appeared to him to be conducted in the best and most economical manner. He had heard with regret an attack made the other evening against the Prime Minister by the hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond). He could not think it was consistent with fair play, or with the dignity of that House, or with the maintenance of the due authority of that Government to whom the confidence of the House was given, to take the means which the hon. Gentleman had taken to throw doubts on the character of the Prime Minister. It appeared to him that the attack on Lord Aberdeen was most injurious and uncalled for; and he regretted to find that, while the hon. Member for West Surrey and other Gentlemen were prepared to give their confidence to the Ministers, they were taking every means in their power to degrade them and to lower them in the public estimation. He did not think that that was a wise or a becoming course; and he, as an individual unconnected with any party, was anxious to express his approval of the policy of Her Majesty's Government. In his opinion there was only one matter in which they were to blame, and that was the secrecy with which they had conducted as to the absence of information, until their negotiations. He was satisfied that, if they had from time to time published the papers which they had lately laid before the House, many of the charges which had been made against them—charges of connivance as stated by some, and of credulity as stated by others—would never have been advanced. He hoped that for the future they would show that they had more confidence in the good feeling and the good sense of the country at large, by communicating more frankly their measures or their intentions, so that the public might be enabled to know what their Ministers were doing, without having recourse to papers published by the Governments of France and of other countries. He did not think that that was the open spirit in which the people of England ought to be treated. He believed that in times of difficulty and danger they would be ready to rally round the Administration, and that they ought to be treated with a generous confidence. He fully approved of the vote for the increase of the number of men in
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our Navy, and he was perfectly satisfied, from proofs which had already been given, that it would meet with the approbation of the country. He never thought to have seen the day when, in a question of this kind, where outlay was necessary and great expense was to be incurred, he could come forward and so entirely express his opinion, in conjunction, he believed, with the opinion of the country, almost as one man, to vindicate the conduct of the Government in their measures for supporting the oppressed Turks, whose very name had formerly been a term of reproach. The people of England had manifested at various public meetings their sense of the attempt made by a powerful State to coerce and overwhelm a weaker one, and had come forward with that generous determination which he hoped Englishmen would ever entertain to assist the injured and oppressed, and to resist a violent and unprovoked aggression.
MR. MONCKTON MILNESsaid, he hoped the well-timed and patriotic observations of his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) would not fall unheeded on the House and the country. He felt grateful to his hon. Friend for coming forward in the way he had done, and he (Mr. M. Milnes) joined him heartily in what he believed to be the confirmed opinion of the people of this country. With reference to the remark of his hon. Friend as to the absence of information, until lately, upon this question, he thought the Government had paid a severe penalty for the mistrust they had shown of the people on this occasion. He believed if the first volume of the blue book had been laid on the table at the end of last Session, which it might have been with all prudence, not only would much of the ill feeling, but also the debate on this subject, which had recently ensued, have been considerably curtailed, and the House would have come forward in support of the Government with even more energy and spirit than it had done. As to the question of the advisability of making a more prompt and unequivocal demonstration at the time that Russia crossed the Pruth, if the correspondence which had then taken place had been published towards the end of the last Session, that question would then have been brought regularly under the notice of the House, and decided in a manner befitting the occasion and the emergency. The verdict of the House on that occasion would, he believed, have been favourable to the Go-

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vernment; and there would have been a demonstration of public opinion against Russia which would have materially strengthened their hands in the subsequent negotiations which they set on foot. He could not but think that the mistrust which the Government then showed in the people of this country did much to confirm the Emperor of Russia in his unhappy obstinacy, and, with other circumstances, had led him to take the fatal resolution which he had now done. Adverting to another point, he would take that opportunity of impressing on the House and the Government the necessity of using every possible precaution to preserve the health and the lives of the brave soldiers whom we might send to fight our battles in the East in the impending struggle. He trusted that a sufficient staff of skilled medical officers would accompany our army, and that the greatest possible care and precaution would be taken to ensure their safety both in the voyage and during their encampment in those dangerous regions, to which they were going. Dangerous, he would call them, not for the ordinary perils of warfare, not for "the arrow that flied by day," but for "the pestilence that walketh in darkness," and "the sickness that destroyeth in the noon-day." He did not doubt that the Government would apply themselves to that important consideration with the same promptitude which had characterised the preparations they had made for this war within the last two months—unparalleled as those preparations were in the history of this or any country; and if they did so they would considerably mitigate the grief of many persons, near and dear, who were left behind by our gallant army.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he, for one, could not give his consent to the commendations which had been so liberally bestowed upon Government by the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. M. Milner); and he thought that until the present time Government had done little or nothing to check the aggression of Russia; no Government newspapers had spoken out, and no individual, as representing the Government, had in the early part of the question at issue come forward actively and authoritatively in the matter. He believed that, if the intention of Government to resist the aggression of Russia had been clearly made known at first, it would have had more effect upon the Emperor of that country than all the despatches in all the blue books put together. If it had been
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the intention of Government to interfere at all, they ought to have done so upon hearing of the operations of Prince Menchikoff in Turkey, to watch the effect of which a special Ambassador ought to have been sent to Constantinople, as was done in the person of Lord Heytesbury in 1833. There was no doubt, also, that there were times when Government could have seen clearly, if they had only watched carefully, the policy and intention of Russia, and that, seeing it, they would have checked it, and prevented the occurrence of so dreadful a war as that which now threatened not only us, but the whole of the continent of Europe. It appeared to him now, however, that there was nothing left but that all parties should determine unanimously and fairly to come forward and support Government in carrying on the war which, whether wisely or not brought about, was most certainly impending.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he certainly could not agree in any way with the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby) in his observations on the conduct of Her Majesty's Government, and he thought it, at the present crisis, frivolous to go back into old grievances. He certainly thought if Her Majesty's Government had acted more openly with the House, they would have shown more wisdom. He believed that the public press had done more to enlighten the people as to the true state of things than all the blue books put together would have done. He had looked through the blue books, and his candid opinion was, that Government had done the best they could under circumstances of considerable difficulty; and, for himself, he could not say that he was sorry at the termination to which we had arrived, because it gave us an opportunity of prominently coming forward and checking the aggressive policy of Russia, of which not only her present conduct, but her past, gave us ample proof. He (Sir De Lacy Evans) did not regret the termination of those negotiations. The conduct of Russia was a mere pursuance of a long-premeditated policy. He certainly should be glad to see a higher tone taken by Her Majesty's Government, as also by the Governments of the Continent, towards the despot of St. Petersburg; but now that they had come to the final issue, he should say he rejoiced at it. There could be no real peace with Russia, and they never could succeed by negotiation in doing more than patching up a brief truce. The hon.

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Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) thought they should fall back on the Vienna note; but he (Sir De L. Evans) should be sorry to see any such attempt made, recollecting the insult, the reprobation, and dissimulation practised by Russia. Our policy must not be a backward one now, and our movement must at the present crisis be onward. We were essentially at war with Russia at the present moment, and, that being so, he should certainly regret to see us waver in our action. The hon. Member for the West Riding had also committed an error in supposing that in undertaking this war we intended to favour the Mahomedan religion at the expense of the Christian, since this was not so; and the only reason of our entering into the quarrel at all was, not to protect Turkey, or to have anything to do with the Mahomedan religion, but to resist the aggression and domination of Russia. The hon. Member had also suggested that it would have been wise to send a Commission to inquire into those differences; but, if the hon. Member had had as much experience of Commissions and inquiries as he had had, be would know the inutility of doing anything of the kind. The hon. Member had also talked much of Russia, with her 66,000,000 of population, being homogeneous of the Greek Church, but the fact was, that of this number there were only 22,000,000 of serfs who belonged to that Church, and these were entirely under the control and ridden over by their aristocratic masters, while the remaining portion of the population were Papists and members of all denominations of creeds and superstitions, and entirely under the control of the despotism under which they lived. He was glad that this discussion had taken place, and that these things had occurred at the present time, when we were in so good a position for commencing and carrying out successfully a war like the present. We had now the advantage of a close alliance with France, and enjoyed the friendly co-operation of the Sovereign of that country. We had a splendid and efficient army and navy, and, more than all, we had right and justice on our side. He hoped, therefore, that Government, now that war seemed inevitable, would not make their warlike preparations by driblets, but would carry out the same with vigour and activity, and—at once.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I am not going to renew the discussion of the ether evening, but will confine myself sim-
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ply to making a few remarks in reply to the observations which fell from my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. M. Milnes). The hon. Gentleman complained that the Government had been wanting in confidence towards this House in not laying before it at an earlier period the correspondence and communications which had passed between Her Majesty's Government and other Governments with reference to the dispute between Russia and Turkey. Sir, I can assure the House, that if any delay has taken place, either now or at any other time, in communicating to Parliament the despatches showing the progress of the negotiations which have been carried on with regard to this most important question, it has not been in any degree from any distrust in Parliament or in the country on the part of Her Majesty's Government, or from any desire to conceal from Parliament or the country the nature or the progress of the negotiations which have been going forward; but I am sure that the House and the hon. Gentleman will see that a premature publication of portions of our unfinished negotiation may most essentially prejudice the successful result of that negotiation, and that until it is brought to some termination, either favourable or unfavourable, you must entirely defeat your chance of a successful issue of that negotiation by a premature publication to the world of the proposals made, the refusals given, the modifications which have taken place, or the difficulties which have arisen in the course of it. It really is entirely a matter for their opinion as to its expediency or otherwise—and that opinion may be either right or wrong, though in this case I believe it has been perfectly right—that Ministers must be guarded in choosing the moment in which communications of this nature should be made to Parliament. There is also one other point in the speech of my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Pontefract to which I wish to refer. My hon. Friend has expressed an anxious hope that Her Majesty's Government would not omit to take all those precautions and all that care which are fitting for the health and comfort of those troops which may be employed on that expedition upon which a portion of Her Majesty's army are to be engaged. Sir, I can only assure my hon. Friend and the House, that that subject is one which above all things attracts the attention and employs the care of Her Majesty's Government, not only now, but

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always—but more especially at the present time, considering the distance of the place for which they are to embark. Every care has been taken to provide for the health and comfort of the troops, and every precaution adopted to guard them from those injuries and inconveniences which may arise from the various casualties resulting either from climate or from actual war. Therefore, those friends and relations whom they leave behind may be satisfied that nothing will be omitted which it is possible to do to provide for their health and their comfort while engaged on the expedition on which they have been sent. It is the peculiar pride of this country that greater care is taken of British troops than of the troops of any other nation in the world, and although it may be attended with some increase of expense, and though it may seem at first sight to render the British army more expensive than any other army, yet, if we measure expense by results, it is obvious that ours is actually the most economical arrangement which can be made. I will venture to say that if you take 40,000 or 50,000 of any army in the world and an equal number of British troops, you will find that, owing to the greater care which is paid to our army in respect of food, clothing, and medical attendance, the 40,000 British troops will, on the day of action, bring into the field of battle an infinitely greater number of serviceable men than a similar army of any other nation in the world. That is one reason—I may say it without any national vanity—of the great efficiency in the field of British troops in comparison to the numbers employed. I have thought it right to make these few remarks in consequence of what fell from my hon. Friend, and to assure the House that upon this occasion, as well as upon all others—but more especially upon this—the greatest possible care has been taken to make every provision for those points to which my hon. Friend has alluded.
MR. MUNTZsaid, he fully agreed with the noble Lord the Home Secretary that no blame could be fairly attached to the Government for not having produced the correspondence and documents sooner, because every one knew that, even in private affairs, if the negotiations which were going on were disclosed before their termination the result might be to defeat the object in view. At the end of last Session he had ventured to express an opinion that,
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if the Government had shown greater energy at first, the question would have been settled sooner; that if we had threatened to make it a case of war the Pruth never would have been crossed; and, as he had been guilty of reading the blue books through, he was quite confirmed by their perusal in the opinion which he had on that occasion expressed. It appeared to him that almost every party concerned in the affair had been deceived. It was quite clear that the Emperor of Russia had deceived Her Majesty's Government and every one else too that had been in communication with the Russian Government. The Emperor had pretended to make this a religious question, but religion had nothing to do with it. He had fancied that this was a convenient season, from the state of affairs in Europe, for the prosecution of his designs of Russian aggrandisement, and he had accordingly attempted to take advantage of it. It was evident, too, that the Emperor of Russia had been himself deceived; he had been deceived with regard to the progress of the Peace Society in this country. In reading through the blue book Ito found that, in a conversation between our Ambassador at St. Petersburg and Count Nesselrode, the latter had said that his Imperial master could not believe that, after the exertions made by England for the preservation of Peace at all costs, that the English nation would ever go to war. That he thought was a sufficient proof of what mischief had been done by the Peace Society. It seemed, too, that with reference to the Vienna note, every party concerned, except Turkey, had been deceived by Russia. Turkey seemed to be the only sensible party in the affair. England, Prance, Austria, and Prussia had all at first pressed the acceptance of the Vienna note on Turkey, and yet he found the British Minister fourteen days afterwards acknowledging that, if she had accepted it, it would have been her eternal ruin. He believed, looking at the whole circumstances of the case, that, if greater energy had been shown at an earlier period, all danger and expense of war, and the misery and loss of life which it would entail, might have been prevented; and he could not help feeling that the brave men who were about to sail on this expedition, good as they were, and even better as he believed they would prove themselves to be than

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all others—though they were only 20,000—would run risks which he was afraid to contemplate. True, it was said they were to be supported by a fine corps of the French army; but how long was the support of that army to be relied on? How long could we feel certain of the friendly disposition of the ruler who sent them, or that he would be able to maintain that friendly disposition by the state of his own country? Then, what would become of our 20,000 men? He had read that the answer sent by the Czar to the Emperor Napoleon's letter was, that he would answer it by his soldiers, and that they would answer as their fathers did in 1812. There could not be a greater mistake than underrating one's enemy, and he did not agree with those who described the Russians as wretched, inefficient troops. He entertained a very different opinion of them, for he was old enough to remember the battle of Austerlitz, and the remarks of the first Napoleon on it; and he believed that the Russian troops now, as then, when they took the whole old Italian French army to beat them, were brave, energetic, and courageous soldiers, and a vast many there were of them. He believed that the war might have been prevented at an earlier stage, but, having got into it, all we had to do was to exert ourselves like Englishmen and get out of it as well as we could, to which object he would give his humble aid.
LORD ROBERT GROSVENORsaid, that while he agreed with the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that an earlier production of the correspondence and documents would have been inadvisable, he could not concur in his opinion that a greater display of energy at the commencement would have prevented matters assuming their present warlike complexion. He saw nothing in the blue books to justify the supposition that, had the Emperor of Russia been threatened with war at an earlier period, he would have been deterred from prosecuting his designs. He believed, on the contrary, that by pursuing a pacific course Her Majesty's Government had gained a diplomatic triumph, and by enlisting Austria and Prussia on their side they had made the question an European instead of a mere national question.
Report agreed to.
The House adjourned at a quarter before Two o'clock.