Sitting of 8 August 1854

MINUSES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—3° Bankruptcy; Common Law Procedure.

NAWAB OF SURAT—QUESTION.
SIR ERSKINE PERRYsaid, he had given notice of a question with reference to the conduct of the Governor of Bombay towards the family of the Nawab of Surat, which it would be expedient for him to preface by a short statement of the case. The late Nawab of Surat had made over his territories to the East India Company upon a stipulated pension for himself and his family of 15,000 l. per annum, reserving to himself rights of sovereignty over his immediate family and dependents. This state of things ceased with his death, upon which event some difficulties arose in connection with his representative, a daughter. In consequence, an Act of the Supreme Legislature of India was placed in 1848 for the administration of the estate of the late Nawab of Surat, to continue privileges to his family. By section 2 of that Act, the Governor of Bombay in Council was empowered to act in the administration of the property of whatever nature, left by the late Nawab of Surat, &c., and no act of the said Governor of Bombay in Council in respect to the administration to, and distribution of such property was to be liable to be questioned in any court of law or equity. The Governor of Bombay in Council, having proceeded to act in execution of the powers thus conferred upon him, had exercised that power in a manner not satisfactory to a member of the family of the Nawab, and, in consequence, that member of the family sought to have the proceeding reheard or the distribution thought right by the Governor of Bombay in Council brought under the review of the Judicial Council, as a matter of right, and in the exercise of its ordinary administration. The Judicial Council, however, by the mouth of Vice Chancellor Knight Bruce, held that under the third section of the Act, under which they sat, the court had no jurisdiction to entertain the appeal, because the Legislature of India had framed an Act enabling the Government of Bombay to deal with the subject-matter in his executive capacity, and not in a judicial manner, but that they had jurisdiction in the matter, if Her Majesty should be pleased to refer it to them. And he said—
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"In the extreme case which may be supposed of corrupt or tyrannical abuse of such powers as these—which is not suggested—there must always be open to all the Queen's subjects those rights of complaint—in the last resort, either to Parliament or to the Crown—neither Parliament nor the Crown ever being deaf, we must assume and believe, to the voice of reason and abstract justice."
The petitioner, therefore, was left to take such course as he might be advised, with reference to an application to the Crown, through the Board of Control, or otherwise. Under these circumstances, he (Sir E. Perry) begged to put the question of which he had given notice, whether, as the Privy Council have decided that the determination of the Governor of Bombay in Council against the claim of the daughter and only surviving child of the late Nawab of Surat to succeed to his private property was an executive and not a judicial act, the Board of Control will take the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, whether the judgment of Mr. From, on which the decision of the Bombay Government has proceeded, is not a fit matter to be referred to the Privy Council for their opinion as to its soundness in point of law and its conformity with the evidence in the case— whether, if an Act of the Legislature of India takes away from any subject of Her Majesty the right of appeal to ally court of law or equity, there are any means by which such individual complaining of injustice can obtain redress?
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, he did not see any necessity that existed for taking the opinion of the law officers of the Crown on a question which had been decided in so distinct and formal a manner; nor did he see that there were any means of meeting the views indicated in the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question. The law which had been passed on the subject was a special law, rendered necessary by the difficulties which had arisen.
SIR ERSKINE PERRYsaid, he wished to know whether the right hon. Baronet would not consent, at least, to instruct the Governor of Bombay to suspend the distribution of the property until the opportunity of remedying the grievance by an appeal to that House, or otherwise, had been afforded?
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, the property, he believed, had already been distributed.
SIR ERSKINE PERRYhad reason to believe that it had not yet been distributed.
SIR FITZROY KELLYsaid, he would take that opportunity of giving notice that he should, early next Session, call the attention of the House to the propriety of taking some steps by which the grievances arising out of such legislation in India should be averted for the future.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, he was of opinion that some competent tribunal should be created for the special disposal of these cases, and with adequate powers. Some such tribunal had been advocated by Sir Robert Peel in 1834, and it would prevent a great deal of oppression and injustice towards our Indian fellow-subjects.

BRIBERY BILL.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL moved that the House should take into its consideration the Lords' Amendments in this Bill.
LORD HOTHAMsaid, he begged to ask Mr. Speaker whether it was competent for the noble Lord to bring the subject under their notice at that moment. There stood upon the paper a number of Orders of the Day, while the Motion of the noble Lord was placed upon the paper in the shape of a notice.
MR. SPEAKERsaid, that previous to the establishment of a rule to which the House had some time ago agreed, the Amendments introduced by the Lords into a Bill might be taken into consideration at any time. That rule, however, had provided that the Lords' Amendments should not be taken into consideration upon the day upon which they came down from the other House, but should be fixed for some subsequent day, unless the House was pleased to order otherwise. It was competent, however, for the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), having given notice of Motion upon the subject, to move that those Amendments be taken into consideration forthwith.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, that a general assent had been given by the other House of Parliament to the Bill as it had been sent up to them from the House of Commons. The important definitions of bribery and treating and undue influence, and the important provision which related to the appointment of an election officer, had undergone no alteration. The last day upon which the Bill had been considered in that House a former decision of the House bad been reversed—he meant that with respect to the declaration to be taken by hon. Members at the table. It had then been asked whether it was not
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competent to expunge those other declarations in the Bill which were consequent upon the principal one. They had been informed, however, from the Chair that it was then too late to take those other declarations into their consideration. Now, in the House of Lords those declarations had been struck out. An important clause, Clause 23, legalising the payment of travelling expenses to the voter, had also been struck out by the House of Lords. He himself had proposed that clause to the House, in the belief that it was desirable to confirm the law as it at present stood. The House would bear in mind, however, that the necessity for the clause in question depended in some measure upon the declaration to be taken by Members of Parliament, and that declaration having been struck out, the clause with respect to travelling expenses no longer retained its former value. He proposed that that House should agree to the omission of this clause. No doubt, when a declaration was to be required from every Member of that House that he had not incurred any illegal expenses, it was most essential that there should be a particular definition of what expenses were or were not illegal, but that declaration had been struck out. The only effect of agreeing to this Amendment was, that the law would remain in its present state; but he might say that, while this Bill treated one part of the subject of bribery and corruption, there was another part of the subject— namely, that which referred to the trial of offences before Election Committees; and he hoped to be able to deal with that subject during the next Session of Parliament.
LORD HOTHAMsaid, he still retained all those objections to the Bill which he had urged against it upon the third reading, but he should not upon the present occasion enter into a recapitulation of those objections. The course he meant to take was to call the attention of the House to the manner in which, and to the time at which, the House of Commons was called upon to take into consideration the subject of the noble Lord's Motion. For his own part he must say that he had never yet, during the time he had sat in that House, seen a Minister ask the concurrence of the House to an Amendment against which, in conjunction with his colleagues, he had spoken and voted. The present Bill had undergone considerable discussion in that House, and also the severe scrutiny of a Select Committee—

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and, indeed, the consideration of it could not be concluded before the day arrived after which the Lords had determined not to receive any more Bills from that House. They had, however, for various reasons, consented to take this Bill into discussion, and among other reasons stated was a feeling of deference to the opinion of that House.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I understand that the noble Lord is about to enter into a detail of the proceedings with respect to this Bill which took place in the other House; but the proceedings which have taken place there, in Committee, with regard to it, are not properly matter for discussion in this House.
LORD HOTHAM: The noble Lord was perhaps justified in calling him to order; but he thought that the noble Lord himself, in asking the House to consider what had never been printed, and of which they had no Parliamentary knowledge, was scarcely taking a legitimate course. The clause to whose omission from the Bill the noble Lord now asked them to give their assent, was one which had been considered upon no less than five different occasions, and upon every one of those occasions the noble Lord had either spoken or voted in its favour. The whole force of the Government had, in fact, been arrayed in support of it; and yet the noble Lord had no hesitation in asking the House of Commons to sanction its removal from the Bill. It was vain to say that to reject this Amendment would only leave the law in the same condition as it at present was, for surely it was not unreasonable, on the part of those who desired to see the law settled with regard to this subject, to complain of its being left in its present state. He contended that if the House consented under any pretence to the proposal of the omission of this clause, they would expose themselves to the scorn and contempt of every man throughout the country. What, then, was to be done under the present peculiar circumstances? To take the sense of the House would be a perfect absurdity, for, at that advanced period of the Session, when very few hon. Members besides Members of the Government were in London, the Government would, he was well aware, be able to carry any measure they pleased to bring forward, even if it were a proposal to make bribery at elections a capital offence. He scarcely knew what course he should take in order to resist the unjustifiable attempt of the noble Lord
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to reverse the decision at which the House of Commons had arrived. He must, sorry as he should be to be compelled to do so, if the noble Lord persisted in asking the House to assent to the omission of the clause in question, adopt a mode of proceeding the object of which was to protect that House from an improper interference with its action, let that interference come from whatever quarter it might. During the long period which he had sat in that House he had never felt it to be his duty to resort to the mode of proceeding to which he referred; but he had seen upon one occasion, no less than thirty divisions taken in Committee of Supply by the noble Lord's colleague, the late Lord Durham, and the last of those divisions had been taken on the question whether fresh candles should be lighted or not. There was a limit to all human endurance, and the present was an occasion upon which, he thought, the noble Lord might be considered to have passed that limit. The noble Lord, in fact, called upon the House of Commons to stultify itself by giving its assent to a proposition, the effect of which was to declare that it was prepared to act in a manner which would reflect disgrace upon its proceedings. Under these circumstances, he should implore of the noble Lord to reconsider the determination at which he seemed to have arrived, and not compel him, and those who might concur in his view of the matter, to have recourse to either one or the other of two alternatives —namely, either to take a course which it must be most repugnant to their feelings to adopt, or to make a pusillanimous and disgraceful surrender of the duty which they owed to their own consciences, to that House of which they were Members, and to those constituents whom they had the honour to represent. If the noble Lord, however, should persevere in the course which he had signified it to be his intention to pursue, then he (Lord Hotham), when they should have arrived at the 23rd clause, should move that the consideration of the Amendment of the House of Lords with respect to that clause be agreed to that day month.
Amendments agreed to, as far as Clause 23.
Amendment, to leave out Clause 23, read.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Ques-

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tion, in order to add the words "the said Amendment be taken into further consideration upon this day month," instead thereof.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, that the noble Lord seemed to consider that clause to be a very essential portion of the Bill; but the fact was that the Bill which he (Lord J. Russell) had introduced at the commencement of the Session had contained no such provision; and he believed that no such provision was to be found among the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole) and the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Suffolk (Sir E. Kelly). It certainly was not true that the adoption of such a clause had been regarded as one of the primary objects of the measure. But it was true that when they had been discussing the declaration clause, it had been strongly urged that if every Member were to be compelled to declare that he had incurred no expenses except legal expenses, they ought to define as exactly as possible what expenses were legal and what expenses were illegal; and it was in consequence of that argument that he had been induced to advise the House to agree to the clause then under their consideration. But he should confess that he thought the arguments used in that House against allowing candidates to pay election expenses had appeared to him very strong, and that they had certainly made a considerable impression upon his mind. It had been argued that by that clause they would open the door to many practices which should be clearly considered corrupt, and which were very akin to direct bribery. He could not help thinking that there was considerable weight in the objections thus put forward against the clause; and in his opinion it was desirable that they should agree with the Amendment of the Lords, and omit the clause from the Bill. It was not one of the essential provisions of the measure, although some hon. Members on both sides of the House had chosen so to represent it. If the House of Lords had undertaken to define what expenses should be legal, and what expenses should be illegal, he could understand that there would be some force in the objections advanced by the noble Lord against the course which the Lords had pursued, because the decision to which the House of Commons had come would then have been directly reversed by the other House. But the Lords had taken no such course; they
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had merely decided in favour of the omission of the clause; so that if the payment of travelling expenses had heretofore been legal, it would still continue legal under that Bill. It might be desirable that Parliament should come to some definite decision upon that point; but as the Bill now under consideration contained many other useful provisions—provisions, for instance, defining what was bribery, what was treating, what was undue influence, and providing for the appointment of an election officer with a view of ascertaining and limiting the expenses of elections, he thought that it was well worth the approval of the House, although it did not peremptorily deal with the question of the legality or the illegality of the payment of travelling expenses. He could not, therefore, conceive that the noble Lord could have any reason to say that that House would be at all disparaged by agreeing to that Amendment of the Lords. On the contrary, he was exceedingly glad that the Lords had not made any further Amendments in the Bill, and that in spite of the Resolution to which they had come, not to consider any Bills after the 25th of July, except Bills of Supply, or Bills of extreme urgency, they had thought proper to proceed with the present measure after that date. That fact showed that the House of Lords were more aware than the noble Lord (Lord Hotham) appeared to be of the urgency of that measure. It showed an earnest desire, on their parts, to put a check to those corrupt practices, and it likewise showed that they entertained very considerable deference for the wishes of the House of Commons, in which House the question of the propriety of issuing new writs for the five boroughs which had, for some time, remained unrepresented, was to be considered on Friday next. Under all the circumstances of the case, it appeared to him to be very desirable that the Bill should pass as soon as possible, and that if new writs were to be issued for Cambridge and the other unrepresented boroughs, they should have an opportunity of seeing whether the measure would be effectual in preventing that corruption by which those boroughs had hitherto been disgraced. He had, therefore, no hesitation in advising the House to agree to that Amendment of the Lords. He trusted that if the noble Lord opposite should divide the House upon that occasion, and if his Motion should be rejected, he would see that the feeling against those corrupt practices was

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so strong that it was not considered advisable that the House should delay until another Session some remedy against their recurrence.
MR. HILDYARDsaid, that the noble Lord President of the Council had addressed the House apparently under the supposition that the noble Lord the Member for the East Riding of Yorkshire (Lord Hotham) wished that the House should reject the Bill altogether. But he (Mr. Hildyard) did not certainly understand that that was the wish of the noble Lord.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, that the Motion of the noble Lord was that the Amendment should be considered on that day month; and the effect of its adoption would necessarily be to defeat the Bill for the present Session.
MR. HILDYARDsaid, that he was sure that if that would be the effect of the Motion his noble Friend would be prepared so to amend it as to show that he wished the Bill should pass at once, but should pass with the clause which had been struck out by the Lords. [Lord HOTHAM: Hear, hear!] The noble Lord the President of the Council had told them that that was a matter of no great importance; but if it were a matter of only trifling importance, why should not the House of Lords coincide in a decision to which the House of Commons had come after prolonged deliberation? He said that that was an exercise of the privileges of the House of Lords which the Commons ought not to tolerate. In that case the Lords had thought proper to reverse a decision to which the House had come by very considerable majorities, and with the sanction of every noble Lord and right hon. Gentleman on the Treasury bench. Why should the Members of that House be subject to the caprice of the House of Lords? If that clause were struck out, the legality or the illegality of the payment by candidates of the travelling expenses of voters would still be left in doubt and different Committees of that House would be found deciding that question differently. It was only natural to suppose, however, that ultimately county Members would be deterred from incurring the risk of paying those travelling expenses, and then the poorer class of county voters would in many instances be virtually disfranchised. He hoped that the House would not, by adopting the Amendment, succumb to the caprice of the House of
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Lords, and that that House would not consent to the omission from the Bill of a clause to which they had before repeatedly given their sanction by large majorities.
MR. HUMEsaid, it would appear from the language employed by the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just addressed them that the Liberals were at present the constitutional party in that House, and that the self-styled Conservatives were the enemies of the constitution. The doctrines laid down by the hon. and learned Gentleman would lead to a complete revolution in the constitution of this country. For his (Mr. Hume's) part, he had always defended the constitution as composed of King, Lords, and Commons; and no man could be more anxious than he had always been that each of these bodies should perform its special duties in our legislative system. He had frequently complained that the Lords had overstepped their rights by sending Members to the House of Commons; but he had never insulted them by complaining that they had exercised their undoubted privilege of dealing as they might think proper with any Bill that might be submitted to their consideration. If they were not to be allowed to exercise that privilege, why, he would ask, should measures be brought at all before them? He must confess at the same time that he attached but little importance to the Bill; he had even abstained from taking any part in its discussion or in the divisions upon its various clauses; and he had told the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) not only on this, but on similar occasions, that he believed the only effectual mode of putting a cheek to bribery at elections would be the adoption of the vote by ballot. He thought it only fair that Members of Parliament should not be saddled with the expense of bringing voters to the poll. He had no particular anxiety to see the franchise placed in the hands of men who would not be prepared to go to a polling-booth to record their votes; and if the present polling-booths were too distant for any electors, he would only recommend that the number of polling-places should be increased, and that one of them should, if necessary, be erected in every parish. Under any circumstances he felt that a candidate ought not to be put to the expense of a single shilling in order to ensure his return to Parliament; for he was but the servant of the public, and, as a servant, he ought

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not to be compelled to purchase his employment.
MR. SPEAKERsaid, he felt it his duty to remind the noble Lord the Member for the East Riding of Yorkshire that his Amendment, if carried, would lead to the rejection of the Bill. If the noble Lord only objected to that particular Amendment of the Lords, he should merely move that the House should disagree to that Amendment.
LORD HOTHAMsaid, he felt it his duty to avail himself of every form of the House, not for the purpose of defeating the Bill, but for the purpose of ensuring the rejection of that Amendment of the Lords. If the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) would move that the House should disagree to the Amendment, and if that Motion should be adopted, he (Lord Hotham) should not offer the slightest opposition to the further progress of the Bill. His only wish was that it should remain in the state in which it had been sent up to the other House.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, he understood the noble Lord to state that unless that clause were reinserted in the Bill he would obstruct the progress of the measure altogether. [Lord HOTHAM: Hear, hear!] That was a perfectly intelligible object, and for that object the Amendment of the noble Lord was a perfectly correct one. The noble Lord the Lord President of the Council had congratulated the House on the fact that the House of Lords had, in the case of the Bill now before them, waived the Resolution they had passed not to consider any Bill, except Bills of Supply, after the 25th of July. But he (Mr. Duncombe) saw no ground for congratulation in that circumstance. The Amendment which the Lords had made in striking out this clause was obviously a compromise. There was no question that the Government had been placed in a false position by the course which had been taken in this matter; but the House of Lords seemed desirous of placing the House of Commons in a false position of much more dangerous import by the Resolution under which they had sought to restrict the proceedings of that House. It appeared to him that the House of Commons would be deserting their duty to themselves and to the country were they to permit the Resolution of the House of Lords to become a precedent. It was a Resolution, moreover, which altogether
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trenched upon the prerogative of the Crown; for, supposing Her Majesty to have thought fit, instead of proroguing Parliament, to adjourn it for two or three months, was it to be permitted that the Lords should say they would not receive any of the Bills which might result from the resumed sitting, because they had not been brought up to their Lordships' House before the 25th of July in this year? He regarded the Resolution as altogether vicious, wrong, and unconstitutional. He perceived that the Lords had introduced another Amendment into the Bill, to the effect that it should continue in operation for a period of two years, and thence to the end of the next Session of Parliament; or, in other words, that it should remain in force for a period of three years. But as he (Mr. Duncombe) believed that the Bill was a trumpery and inefficient one, he meant to bring forward an Amendment to that proposal, and to move that the operation of the Bill should be limited to a period of twelve months. As this was intended to be an experimental measure, so also let the ballot be experimental.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, they had all heard that the views of hon. Members were often influenced to a greater extent than they were aware of by the side of the House on which they sat. He was glad the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), who had so long sat on the sunny side of the House, should now feel disposed to give the benefit of his great experience and weight as a champion of the rights and privileges of the House of Lords. He thought, in his new character, the hon. Member could not do better than enter into a compact with the hon. Member for Finsbury, who had just attacked the House of Lords in a manner wholly undeserved because of its Resolution in reference to not receiving Bills after the 25th of July. Now, so far from having done anything unconstitutional, or anything that could be held to militate against the privileges of the Commons, the Lords never, in his opinion, took a course more wise or constitutional than in the case just mentioned. He was sorry Her Majesty's Government should take such an active part in putting aside a Resolution which was essential to the maintenance of the privileges of the House of Lords as an independent branch of the Legislature. What was the state of business in the House of Lords this time twelve months? The accumulation

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of Bills on their table was such that it was impossible they could give them attention. They were called upon in the month of August not to exercise an independent function, but to register whatever Bills the House of Commons might desire to crowd upon their table. He hoped in future Sessions the Lords would not only arrive at a similar Resolution, but that they would also adhere to it, as well as be supported by the House of Commons. As regarded the question now before the House, he should say it was not creditable to the character of the House; it was not a desirable or decorous proceeding that, in the middle of August, with a mere skeleton of the House present, they should be called upon to rescind and reverse the determination arrived at on so many occasions by a full House. It might be contended that if the Lords made Amendments in their Bills at so late a period of the Session, and sent them back, what else was to be done? But in the present case that had not happened. They found, on the contrary, a Member of the Government, in another place, proposing to reverse the resolution of the House of Commons—a resolution deliberately arrived at, and not alone deliberately arrived at, but also urged for adoption by the Government itself. The Government, therefore, were not in a position to urge on the House the necessity of the case, and, therefore, he should feel bound to vote with his noble Friend the Member for the East Riding of Yorkshire in the course he was taking. But they were told if the Amendment of his noble Friend were carried it would be fatal to the Bill. His noble Friend, however, had stated that such was not his object. However, he (Sir J. Pakington) agreed with the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe) that if the result of the Amendment was to put an end to the measure in the present Session the loss would not be very great. He supported the Bill up to the last division, but he had no hesitation in avowing that upon that occasion the Bill was so mutilated and so altered for the worse, that he did not think it was desirable the Bill should pass; and his apprehension was that if the Bill should pass in its present shape, it would only be a delusion. He did not say that the Bill had no merits. It consolidated the laws relating to bribery, and it gave a better definition than they had yet had of what bribery was; but it was not intended for a Consolidation Bill, or a Bill for de-
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fining bribery, but as a Bill for putting an end to those scenes of bribery and corruption which had disgraced some recent elections; and in that important respect he believed that the Bill would be an utter delusion. Without a declaration to be taken by the successful candidates, he believed that the nomination of an election officer would be a perfectly useless appointment, and that the Legislature would fail in the great object which it had in view. Upon that ground he was prepared to give any vote which would impede the further progress of the Bill, and upon that ground he regretted that the Government thought it desirable to press it. He could have wished that, instead of carrying this now imperfect measure through Parliament, they had taken the recess to consider the subject, and at the commencement of the next Session had brought forward a well-digested measure, which might then have been deliberated upon and passed by both Houses.
MR. G. BUTTsaid, that it appeared to him the Bill, as it had come from the House of Lords, was, upon the whole, a useful measure. It certainly could not be denied that it contained many provisions calculated to carry into effect objects which Members of that House on both sides desired to have fulfilled. He would not go into the conflict between the House of Lords and the House of Commons, which had nothing to do with the question. The matter was, whether the Bill had sufficient merit in itself to entitle it to the adoption of the House as it now stood, and he thought it had. The noble Lord opposite had truly pointed out that in neither of the three Bills which had been submitted to the Select Committee had there been any clause which affected to deal with the question as to the legality of the payments to which this clause referred. It might be desirable, hereafter, to define what was legal and what was not in relation to such payments, but this future expediency afforded no reason why the present Bill should not pass —why another recess should pass away, and another Session, before any attempt was made to put down bribery and corruption. No doubt the Bill, as it came from the Committee was better than it was now, but let them take the measure as it stood, and let a short Bill be introduced next Session to supply any defect in the particular point under discussion, which it might be expedient to deal with.
MR. WILKINSONsaid, he had no

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faith in the Bill as a remedy for the evils of bribery, or in any legislative action by way of penalty. The only effectual way, in his opinion, of putting a stop to malpractices at elections would be to extend the franchise on the one hand, and adopt the system of the ballot on the other.
MR. CAYLEYsaid, he thought that the House of Lords was perfectly justified in the course they had taken. At all events, they had greatly improved this Bill, which he hoped would be passed in its present shape. He differed from the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe) in thinking that the House of Lords did an unconstitutional act in passing their Resolution of the 2nd of May. That was a most useful Resolution, and one to which he hoped the House of Lords would adhere in future Sessions. With respect to the clause under discussion, he thought it would be inconsistent, and against all right principle, to call upon candidates to pay the travelling expenses of voters, and he should give his hearty support to the Lords' Amendments.
MR. MALINSsaid, he would beg the noble Lord the President of the Council to say, after the House of Commons had decided five times by large majorities that the actual and reasonable travelling expenses of voters should be paid by the candidates, and after every Member of the Government in that House had voted in favour of the clause to that effect, that the resolution to which the House had deliberately come should be set aside because the House of Lords had decided, upon a single night's debate upon the whole Bill, that the clause should be expunged. The effect of omitting the clause would be to leave the question of the legality or illegality of travelling expenses in a state of greater doubt and uncertainty than before; and it would be impossible either for an election officer or an Election Committee of that House to show how they were to deal with such cases. He thought that, instead of passing the Bill in its present imperfect and dangerous shape, it would be far better to delay it till next Session. But he would like the noble Lord the President of the Council to explain how it came to pass that a clause, which was supported in the House of Commons by all the Members of the Government in that House, was struck out on the Motion of another Member of the Government in the House of Lords. It could not be that the noble Duke acted without the knowledge or consent of his
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colleagues. He believed that in some matters the noble Duke did not allow the other Members of the Government to interfere with him; but this was not a question of that description; and at all events the matter was one in which an explanation was most assuredly due to the House. Seeing that the Bill as it now stood was one of little value, while it was calculated to create the greatest possible embarrassment at elections, he trusted that it would be allowed to remain over till next Session, when it might be made really effective for the suppression of bribery and corruption.
SIR CHARLES BURRELLsaid, he thought candidates should be allowed to pay the travelling expenses of poor voters, who had not the means of going to the poll at their own cost. He would also suggest that more polling-booths should be erected in large counties, and in any future Bill he hoped that point would not be lost sight of. The omission of the clause which allowed travelling expenses was a harsh and injudicious act, and he would therefore vote against it.
LORD ROBERT GROSVENORsaid, he must deny the assertion of the hon. and learned Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins), that the Government had to a man supported the clause in that House. The Attorney General not only voted, but spoke, against the clause. He rejoiced exceedingly at the course which bad been taken in the other House, for he saw an opening for incalculable mischief in the Bill as it left the House of Commons. So great, indeed, had been his objection to the clause, that he had felt it his duty to vote against the passing of the Bill. Hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to take a very extraordinary view of the duties of a candidate. Formerly, if a man went down to a borough and openly stated his intention—and kept to it—not to pay more than legal expenses, he was held up to honour; but now there seemed to be an idea abroad that a great portion of the expenses, properly belonging to the borough, ought to be got out of the candidate.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 78; Noes 21: Majority 57.
Main Question again proposed.
LORD HOTHAMsaid, in pursuance of the feeling he had on this subject, it was now his duty to move that the House do

1425
now adjourn. In doing so, he would take the liberty of saying one or two words in reference to what had fallen from the noble Lord the President of the Council, who appeared to be under the impression that he (Lord Hotham) had stated that this clause involved the principle of the Bill. He neither said so, nor did he feel it to be any such thing. But what he did say was, that there was no clause in the Bill on which the House had expressed a more decided opinion, or on which more divisions had been taken. It was on that ground that he considered the House ought not to assent to the omission of the clause. He had no other object in view than that this clause should remain in the Bill, although it had been said that a question was sought to be raised as to whether the Bill should be proceeded with or not. For his own part, he would scorn taking the opportunity of doing indirectly what he could not do directly. His objection was solely to the omission of this clause. The noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) was to decide whether the Bill should pass or not. It was not a question between the House of Commons and the House of Lords, but a question between the Ministers of the Crown in that House and the Ministers of the Crown in the other House of Parliament. If the noble Lord was willing to determine that the repeated decisions of the House of Commons should be maintained and that the clause should be restored, then he (Lord Hotham) should not offer one further word of objection to the Bill.
MR. HILDYARDsaid, he wished to correct a great misrepresentation of the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), that he had said the House of Lords had acted capriciously. What he said was that if the House of Lords thought proper to reject this Bill because the House of Commons adhered to a clause upon which they had five times divided, and which they had carried by large majorities, they would, in so rejecting it, act capriciously, and on them would be the consequence of that rejection. To every word of that statement he adhered. By majorities of nearly three to one that House had declared that reasonable and actual expenses of travelling were not illegal. The clause was not an enacting, but a declaratory clause, that the payment of the reasonable and actual expenses of voters was not illegal. The House of Lords had struck out that clause, without declaring that the payment of those expenses was illegal.
1426
What, then, would be the condition of county Members? They would not be able to pay a single farthing on account of such expenses without risking the loss of their seats.
Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
The House divided:—Ayes 16; Noes 84: Majority 68.
Main Question again proposed.
MR. FITZWILLIAM HUMEmoved the adjournment of the debate.
MR. HUMEsaid, he trusted, after the manifestation of the opinion of the House, that the further opposition to this Bill would be withdrawn.
MR. HILDYARDsaid, he was astonished the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose should talk of the manifestation of a majority in that House, when it was well known the present manifestation was the manifestation of a minority, against which there had been a vote of at least three to one of that House. The noble Lord the President of the Council had now all his supporters still in town, but the great bulk of the Members who would support the noble Lord (Lord Hotham) had left town.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he did not think the hon. and learned Member who had just sat down was remarkable for his calmness. It could not well be said of the hon. and learned Gentleman—
"Whose own example strengthens all his laws, And is himself the great sublime he draws."
The hon. and learned Gentleman was mistaken in supposing this clause formed any part of the original Bill. The clause in question had been added to it at a later period of the discussion, and it never formed a portion of the original Bill. He trusted the noble Lord would not now put the House to the trouble of dividing, but would take the sense of it on the main question, that they agree or disagree to the Lords' Amendments. The noble Lord must perceive, that in the division which had taken place, not merely the ordinary supporters of the Government voted in favour of the Lords' Amendments, but also many of those who sat upon the noble Lord's own side of the House.
COLONEL BLAIRsaid, he would remind the noble Lord that, not many weeks ago, he had stated that, if he conscientiously believed he were right, however small the minority who supported him, he would persevere. He also begged to remind the noble Lord that a great many Members

1427
who had formerly opposed the view taken by the House of Lords, were now out of town, and had not had notice that the question was to be discussed.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, that the occasion to which the hon. and gallant Member adverted, upon which he (Lord J. Russell) spoke as stated, was where a minority attempted to contravene the wishes of the majority.
MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, he had taken a deep interest in this Bill from the commencement. It was not special or partial legislation, but applied equally to England, Ireland, and Scotland, and he trusted the noble Lord (Lord Hotham) would not again uselessly divide the House.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, he would advise the hon. Member for Wicklow (Mr. F. Hume) not to press his Amendment to a division, but that he and his friends should reserve their forces for his (Mr.Duncombe's) Amendment, that the operation of the Bill be limited to twelve months.
MR. MALINSsaid, he must complain that no notice had been given of agreement to these Amendments being moved. There were many at this moment within two miles of the House of Commons who did not know what was going on, and who had no reason to know what was going on. He justified the course which he and his friends were taking, and which he admitted upon ordinary occasions was exceedingly to be deprecated, upon the ground that they were asked to reverse the oft-repeated decision of that House, and to do it without reasonable notice.
MR. BENTINCKsaid, he had not been in the House upon the two former divisions, but should vote for the present Amendment, if it were pressed, upon the ground that it was a most unjustifiable proceeding to attempt, at that period of the Session, and in such a House as was then assembled, to force on a measure of this kind without proper notice. It was a positive act of deception on the House. A measure of this magnitude, and involving such great interests, ought to have been brought forward and discussed at such a period of the Session as would have ensured a proper attendance of Members.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
The House divided:—Ayes 15; Noes 81: Majority 66.
Main Question again proposed.
Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
The House divided:—Ayes 13; Noes 79: Majority 66.
Main Question again proposed.
MR. MALINSsaid, he thought the noble Lord the President of the Council would agree with him, that it was not fair that such a subject should be discussed without notice. In order, therefore, that such notice might be given, and that those hon. Members who were absent might have an opportunity of attending, he would propose an adjournment until Thursday. He would have preferred Friday, but he understood that the prorogation was to be on Saturday, and he could see that Friday might be inconvenient; but he trusted that the noble Lord would think that, in proposing Thursday, he was only suggesting a fair compromise. There was another reason for the postponement. It would afford the noble Lord an opportunity of giving an answer to the question he had asked just now, and which, he thought, respect for the country and that House demanded should be answered, as to the reasons which had led the noble Duke (his colleague) to move in the other House of Parliament to undo that which the noble Lord in that House had himself proposed to do.
MR. SPEAKERsaid, the hon. and learned Gentleman could only move that the debate be adjourned.
MR. MALINSsaid, he would therefore alter his Amendment accordingly, on the understanding that, if carried, the discussion should be resumed on Thursday.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, a postponement to Thursday would give hon. Gentlemen opposite a great advantage. It was obvious that they might pursue the same course on that day and on Friday as they had pursued to-day, and then the only alternative would be, that the prorogation must be postponed or the Bill be lost.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, it appeared to him there was something not quite so honest as they might expect in the course which hon. Gentlemen opposite were taking. They were objecting now to the further progress of the Bill, on the ground that a particular clause had been withdrawn, but they had voted against the Bill with that clause in it; and the ground of their opposition, therefore, must be sought, not in the withdrawal of the clause, but in the ancient inveterate hostility to the Bill itself. He thought that the objection as to want of notice savoured very much of a court of law; that those hon. Members who were still in town, and had sufficient means of

1429
knowing that the subject was to be discussed, and that those who had gone out of town, must be supposed to have ascertained before they left, whether there was any business which remained to be transacted of sufficient importance to detain them. The hon. and learned Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins) claimed to represent a majority of the House. How did he know that? The noble Lord the President of the Council, on whose recommendation only the House had agreed to this clause, had changed his opinion upon it; and they all knew that the noble Lord's conversion was generally followed by the conversion of a great many others. He remembered to have heard it said of a certain Cardinal that he had baptized 4,000 or 5,000 people at once by the twirling of a mop; and when the noble Lord changed his opinions a great many other people changed their opinions at the same time. He would put it to the noble Lord whether it was worth his while—as this was a temporary measure—as a majority of the House of Commons had adopted it—as the House of Lords had thought it of sufficient importance to warrant a suspension in its favour of the Resolution it had passed this Session—as the whole subject must be reconsidered at all events within the next two years—it was worth his while to persevere in a course which, supported by thirteen Members—just "a baker's dozen"—against seventy-nine, could lead to no practical result?
MR. HILDYARDsaid, he must still contend that the objection made upon the ground of want of notice was the objection, not merely of a lawyer, but of a statesman, and he assuredly should support the course which the Opposition had pursued.
MR. BENTINCKsaid, he maintained that it was perfectly consistent with the opposition that had been given to a Bill which they believed to be bad, mischievous, and inefficient, to support the reintroduction of a clause, the omission of which, they considered, made a bad measure worse.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he agreed that the clause which the Lords had struck out was one of great importance, for, if it had become law, rank bribery would for the first time have become legalised. What hon. Gentlemen wished, therefore, was to establish bribery by Act of Parliament.
LORD HOTHAMsaid, if, as the hon. Gentleman had stated, the clause in question would have sanctioned bribery, how happened it that he himself, on four or
1430
five different occasions, voted for it? The hon. Gentleman had, as he had frequently done before, imputed motives to those who were opposed to him. How much better it would be if the hon. Gentleman would confine himself to giving his reasons for the opinions he entertained. As to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), he would only say, that it was not the fact that those who sought to maintain the clause which the Lords had struck out wished to establish bribery. [Mr. BRIGHT: Hear, hear.] At all events, the hon. Gentleman imputed to the minority that they had an object other than that which they professed. He (Lord Hotham) could only say that, whatever might be the merits of the clause, it was one which had over and over again been confirmed by that House. It was on that ground, without any reference to the intrinsic merits of the clause itself, that he was proceeding on this occasion. The ground he was now going upon was, that there was originally a large majority extremely in favour of the clause. Nothing would have induced him to put himself in the situation he was then assuming, but a most sacred sense of duty. It was a position which was most distasteful to him, but from which he felt he could not recede without sacrificing his conscientious feelings, and consenting to a most unworthy surrender of the privileges of that House.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
The House divided:—Ayes 13; Noes 78: Majority 65.
Main Question again proposed.
LORD HOTHAM: I move that the House do now adjourn.
MR. MALINSsaid, he had hoped, when he moved that the debate be adjourned to Thursday next, that the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) would have acceded to so reasonable a proposition, but, as the noble Lord had not thought proper to do so, he did not think it was necessary to proceed further in dividing the House.
Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
The House divided:—Ayes 11; Noes 77: Majority 66.
Main Question again proposed.
LORD HOTHAMsaid, he should again move that the debate be adjourned.
MR. T. DUNCOMBE: Mr. Speaker, it appears that both sides of the House are gradually dwindling away, and as the minority are decreasing two to one, as com-

1431
pared with the majority, it is clear that in the end they must give way. Now, I would suggest that time would be saved, and the object of both parties attained, by the adoption of the compromise I suggested an hour or two ago, that the present Bill should continue in operation for twelvemonths and the then next Session of Parliament instead of for two years, and the then next Session. This, I conceive, would meet the views of both parties. The noble Lord the President of the Council would then no doubt undertake to bring in a new Bill in the course of next year, but if the operation of the Bill be extended for three years after what has taken place this evening, I think it very probable that we shall not have an effectual Bribery Bill for a considerable length of time. I hope the noble Lord the Lord President will consent to this arrangement, and that the noble Lord opposite (Lord Hotham) will also acquiesce in it.
LORD HOTHAMsaid, he had no other object in view than an imperative sense of public duty. He was ready to admit that if the operation of the Bill were limited to twelve months, the view he entertained of the matter would be considerably modified, and if the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) consented to provide that it should continue only for one year, he (Lord Hotham), being most unwilling to interfere more than was absolutely necessary with the progress of other business, would readily acquiesce in that arrangement.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: If my hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury means to propose that the Bill shall continue for one year, and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament, I shall be willing to accede to that proposal. There would then be time to consider any other Bill which it might be thought desirable to introduce, but if it was limited to one year only, an attempt might be made on the first or second reading or on some other stage of such Bill, to move adjournment after adjournment, and thus prevent the passing of any measure upon the subject.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, he believed that the words "and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament," were generally introduced into Bills not to be in force, but to cover any accident that might occur such as the noble Lord had suggested, and his object was not to run the present Bill until the end of the next Session, after the expiration of the year, but to afford the noble Lord the opportunity of
1432
bringing in another Bill next Session, and doing his best to carry it, but having the prospect of the continuance of the present Bill until the end of the succeeding Session should he fail in doing so.
LORD HOTHAMsaid, he was willing to acquiesce in the proposed arrangement.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: Of course I shall feel myself at perfect liberty to propose either to amend this Bill in another Session, or to reintroduce it exactly as it is if I should so think fit. By acquiescing in this arrangement, I must not be understood as binding myself to any particular course in this respect.
MR. MALINSsaid, he hoped the noble Lord, whether he introduced this Bill or proposed a new one, would incorporate in it the clause which had been struck out by the Lords.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLthen moved an Amendment in accordance with Mr. T. Duncombe's suggestion, limiting the duration of the Bill to one year, and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament.
In reply to Mr. HILDYARD,
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, of course this Amendment would have to go up to the Lords for their concurrence.
Amendment agreed to.

COMMON LAW PROCEDURE BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
MR. I. BUTTsaid, he did not wish to oppose this Bill, but he would make an appeal to the Government to expunge the 13th clause, which would disturb the old established law of the country as to the unanimity of juries. He might be allowed to remind the House that the clause embodying a most important alteration in the law was carried in opposition to the opinion of the Attorney General for England, the Solicitor General for Ireland, as well as in opposition to the opinion of the Commissioners, in accordance with whose views the rest of the Bill was framed—namely, the Common Law Commissioners, who distinctly declared that unanimity on the part of juries ought not to be dispensed with. And to this he might add that the opinion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Recorder of London (Mr. S. Wortley) was decidedly to the same effect; while he had learned from a private conversation with the hon. and learned Attorney General that he remained of the same opinion which he had origi-

1433
nally expressed, and that he certainly did not think so important a change ought to be made without the completest discussion. What he felt bound, therefore, to ask the Government was, that at so late a period of the Session, and in the face of an understanding that the discussion as to the merits of this clause was to be postponed until the third reading, they would not press the measure this Session. For, he must say, if they were to carry it through in a House so thinly attended as the present, the public would not fail to conclude that so important a change had been made without that deliberative solemnity and discussion so eminently to be desired. And he might here observe that the clause was not at all essential to the Bill; in fact, one of his arguments against the clause was, that it did not at all properly belong to it, for it was a Bill regulating the practice and procedure of the common law courts. Now, a measure of that kind was hardly one in which provisions dealing with an institution so essential to the working of English society as trial by jury could be introduced. For himself, he believed if the clause were accepted it would lead to the abolition of trial by jury altogether; but, at all events, whether the changes it proposed were right or wrong, he felt sure all would agree that it ought not to be passed except in a full House. He thought, then, that the most equitable course to take would be to expunge the clause altogether from the Bill—or, at least, that part of it which went to establish the verdict of ten jurymen as admissible; and if it was judged advisable to introduce so important a change as that, let it be done by a distinct and separate measure next Session. If that were done he was free to acknowledge that this Common Law Procedure Act would be a very valuable improvement upon the law as it now stood, and on that account there was the more reason for regretting that the Bill had been embarrassed with such extraneous matter. There was also a few other clauses in the Bill altering the law of evidence generally, to which he was disposed to take objection. Hitherto the law of evidence had been the same in England and Ireland. Now, he thought it would be introducing a very dangerous principle, and it would lead to confusion, if they sanctioned a difference in the practice of the courts of England and Ireland on the subject of evidence. Still, he was not
1434
disposed, as he had previously stated, to oppose the further progress of the Bill on that ground, should he obtain an assurance that the Government would not press the 13th clause.
THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he readily admitted that the opinions of his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General and of the Solicitor General for Ireland (Mr. Keogh) were not favourable to that portion of the 13th clause which authorised the reception of the verdict of ten jurymen in lieu of an unanimous decision. On the other hand, the Bill came down to them samctioned by the high authority of the House of Lords. On the whole, however, he would recommend the House not to insist upon that part of the clause objected to by the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Butt), but to defer the introduction of the principle it embodied to a future Session. With regard to the other objection of the hon. and learned Member, namely, that there ought to be one rule as to evidence for both countries, he thought there could be but one opinion on that subject, and therefore he would at once undertake that all the clauses having reference to that subject should be made applicable to Ireland as well as to England.
MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, he hoped the House would on no account accede to the suggestion thrown out by the hon. and learned Solicitor General. The principle of unanimity on the part of a jury was founded upon the most flagrant absurdity, and he would tell the hon. and learned Member for Youghal (Mr. Butt) that, though the Bill had been framed in defiance of the opinions of the hon. and learned Attorney General and the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, there were authorities at least equal to theirs in favour of the principle of the clause. His own opinion was, that the verdict of like jurymen given in after a lapse of twelve hours, backed by the authority of the Judge who tried the cause, ought to be conclusive, and was at least equal to the unanimous verdict of twelve jurymen. At all events, that was the recommendation of the Common Law Commission. He, for one, would not consent to this clause being struck out of the Bill; and he trusted that his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General would never be induced to consent to abandon a provision of so beneficial a nature, and which would tend to rescue the law of trial by jury from a charge of the grossest absurdity.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he thought the argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. J. G. Phillimore) went much beyond what he intended; for his argument went to this, that every juryman should be allowed to vote exactly as he pleased, and that then the verdict should be taken according to the opinions of the majority. By limiting the number assenting to a verdict to nine, in place of twelve, they did not get rid at all of the question of principle. Now, the course which his hon. and learned Friend had proposed did not decide the question; because, by disagreeing to this portion of the Bill, a discussion between the two Houses would be involved, and thus the matter at issue would remain open. He, therefore, thought that upon a question of such very great importance, and in reference to which such a variety of opinions prevailed on both sides of the House, it would be far better to leave the law as it stood during the few months intervening between this and the next Session of Parliament, than act in a headlong manner in regard to the extensive change proposed by the Bill. He would, therefore, suggest to his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. J. G. Phillimore) to waive his objections, and next Session a Bill might be brought in dealing specifically with the subject.
MR. MALINSsaid, he highly approved of the course proposed by the hon. and learned Solicitor General. He perfectly coincided in the opinion that the clause contemplated one of the greatest alterations that could possibly take place in the administration of justice in this country. He thought that, so far as that House was concerned, the greatest caution and consideration were necessary, and that the provisions of the clause eminently merited being dealt with in a separate enactment.
MR. HUMEsaid, he had always thought it absurd to compel unanimity on the part of twelve jurymen. That was a conclusion in direct accordance with the dictates of common sense, and did not require many hours' discussion, either in the morning or the evening, to be arrived at. He, therefore, thought the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. J. G. Phillimore) was perfectly justified in urging the necessity of this change; at the same time, he would recommend him not to press his objection at present, lest it might endanger a measure in other respects also so beneficial.
MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, he would
1436
consent to allow the particular provision to be expunged from the clause, lest, by his opposition, the passing a measure otherwise of so excellent a character should be endangered.
Bill read 3°, and passed.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S REVENUE ACCOUNTS.
Order for Committee read.
House in Committee.
SIR CHARLES WOOD: Sir, I rise now in order to perform the promise I made last year to this House, that, if I occupied the position which I have the honour to hold as President of the Board of Control, I would submit a statement to Parliament respecting the finances of India, and, at the same time, would give a general explanation of the progress of India since the subject was last under discussion in this House. In order to enable me so to do, I propose to follow the precedent set in former years—though it is now only two years short of half a century since an Indian budget was last presented to the House of Commons—and to move certain Resolutions on the subject of the finances of India. Those who have referred to what took place on former occasions will be aware that many of the Resolutions then moved (though some relating to the commercial receipts of the India Company and to their transactions as manufacturers would be inapplicable to the altered state of circumstances) referred to the income, expenditure, and surplus of the Indian revenue, and they will be Resolutions similar to those which, before I sit down, I shall have the honour of proposing. The Resolutions referred first to the revenue and expenditure of the several presidencies, next to the revenue of India generally, and lastly, to the ultimate surplus, after defraying the whole of the charges payable out of the Indian revenues. The Resolutions which I shall submit are in truth, as on former occasions, nothing more than assertions of matters of fact, deducible from the accounts laid on the table of the House, whether those prepared in the old fashion, according to Acts of Parliament, or those framed in a different manner, which I moved for in the course of the Session, and which are now in the hands of hon. Members. The principal advantage, of course, which I anticipate from the present discussion, is not so much the eliciting the opinions of the House on the finances of India, as that it

1437
will enable Government to lay before the House a general view of the state of the Indian empire, and also afford an opportunity to hon. Gentlemen to make such observations as they think fit on the subject, or to seek for further information connected with that most important part of the British dominions, which, so far as I am able to give it from any documents in my possession, I shall be anxious to afford. I do not know that I need say much more on the general character of the Resolutions, but before I go further into the statement, I wish to say a word or two respecting the form of the Indian accounts in the hands of Members. Under Act of Parliament, accounts made up in a particular manner are annually laid on the table of the House. I did not think, when I had time to turn my attention to these matters, that the accounts presented in that shape afforded as much information as it was desirable should be laid before Parliament, and accordingly I desired accounts to be framed very much on the model of the finance accounts of this country, giving very full information on the subjects of the Indian revenue, income, and expenditure. These accounts hon. Gentlemen have had now in their hands for some time, and will be therefore able to express an opinion with respect to them. They were framed with very great care by a gentleman attached to the India Company's establishment in the City, and were submitted to another gentleman of the highest character in our financial department, the chief clerk of the revenue room in the Treasury. They afterwards underwent careful revision by myself, and I think they may be considered satisfactory as regards their form, and the character of the information they give. I am quite aware that they exhibit some defects, which I hope to remedy before presenting them to the House in another year, but for a first attempt to give full information to the House, I trust they will be regarded as a very great improvement on the present form of account. I also take this opportunity of saying that I was anxious to present at the same time to the House accounts similar to the trade and navigation accounts of this country; but I found that, in consequence of the accounts of the different presidencies not being kept in the same form, or not being brought up to the same time, it would be difficult in this year to produce complete accounts of this description. Instructions were sent out in the course of last autumn to the
1438
different presidencies, desiring that the accounts might be framed upon a new model, and I hope next year to be able to lay on the table Indian accounts corresponding with the trade and navigation accounts of the United Kingdom. I will only make one further preliminary observation with respect to the time to which these accounts are brought up. It is with very great regret that I am unable to lay before the House accounts—that is to say, complete accounts—up to a period later than the 30th of April, 1852. Those which have been laid on the table of the House pursuant to Act of Parliament, framed on the old model, I believe it would be easy to present at an earlier period. But I have been unwilling to make any change in this respect, because, though I might get the accounts presented two or three months sooner, I should not be satisfied, considering the accelerated means of communication with India, until I gained a whole year, and produced in the month of May or June complete accounts up to the end of the previous year. Instructions have been sent to the Governments of the different presidencies to expedite the transmission of the accounts as much as possible; and I hope, before a couple of years elapse, that I shall be able to effect the result I have stated. The general purport of the Resolutions which I shall move—following former precedents—will set forth the income and charge of each presidency, the income and charge of India payable in India, and the difference between the income and the charges. At the same time, it is true that the accounts will not give an exact representation of the charges of the separate presidencies, because there are some general charges included in the revenues of each presidency, and some, which ought to be divided among the several presidencies are charged to one. Thus, the charges of the Government of India are defrayed out of the revenues of Bengal; the charges of batta are paid out of the revenues of Madras, and of the Indian navy by Bombay, though these charges ought fairly to be distributed between the different presidencies. In like manner, the retired pay and furlough allowance for the whole of India are put into one general sum, though a portion belongs to each of the presidencies. I mention this circumstance to show that in the statement we are able to make out we do not accurately get the separate charges of the respective presidencies, nor the general charges of

1439
the Indian Government as distinguished from the local payments. Whether in another year it would be desirable to continue the accounts in this form is a subject for consideration, but at present I will only repeat that this is a first attempt to give information as fully as possible with respect to Indian finance. The information furnished in the statement I am about to make is principally derived from the Parliamentary papers on the subject under the heads in those papers, Nos. 12, 13, and 29. The first Resolution states the amount of the revenue of the Presidency of Bengal, including some districts attached to it, and the local charges thereon, exclusive of the military charge.

INDIAN FINANCE— 1851–52.

I. BENGAL:

Revenue

£7,584,435

Local Charges

1,936,362

Local Surplus

… …

£5,648,073

NORTH-WESTERN PROVINCES:

Revenue

5,670,715

Local Charges

1,402,238

Local Surplus

… …

4,268,477

Military Charges of Bengal and North-Western Provinces

5,442,230

Net Revenue of Bengal and North-Western Provinces

… …

… …

£13,255,150

Charges of Bengal and North-Western Provinces

… …

… …

8,770,330

Surplus available for General Purposes of India

… …

……

… …

£4,484,820

II. MADRAS:

Revenue

… …

… …

3,704,048

Charges

… …

… …

3,204,273

Surplus available for General Purposes of India

… …

… …

… …

499,775

III. BOMBAY:

Revenue

… …

… …

2,868,298

Charges

… …

… …

2,847,392

Surplus available for General Purposes of India

… …

……

… …

20,906

Total Revenues of the several Presidencies

… …

……

19,827,496

Total Charges of the several Presidencies

… …

… …

14,822,495

Total Surplus of ditto

… …

… …

……

5,005,001

Interest on Indian Debt

… …

… …

1,967,359

Charges defrayed in England

… …

… …

2,506,377

Total Charges on Indian Revenues

… …

… …

… …

4,473,736

Surplus of Income over Expenditure

… …

… …

… …

… …

£531,265

I am obliged to make that distinction, for, with respect to the army of Bengal, a portion is the army of the North-Western Provinces as well as of Bengal. Therefore, when I state the revenue of Bengal, with the local charges thereon, I shall exclude the army and I shall make the same deduction for the purpose of fair comparison in respect to the North-Western Provinces, and shall afterwards add the army common to both districts. The first resolution I shall move will state that the revenue of Bengal, on the 30th of April, 1852, was 7,584,435 l. [The right hon. Gentleman here read the following statement, embodying the information contained in the Resolutions he intended to move—]
That statement, I am happy to say, is a satisfactory statement, and for the two years preceding, 1851–52 there was also a surplus, though not so large. In 1849–50 the surplus was 354,337 l., and in 1850–51 415,866 l. I have already stated that the year 1851–52 is the last year for which I have a complete statement, but I have an approximate one for the year 1852–53, and I think it desirable to put the House in possession of the most recent information in my power to furnish, though I cannot state anything not resting on certain and positive information. The statement of the gross account for 1852–53, and 1853–54, is as follows:–1852–53, income, 26,915,431 l.; expenditure, 26,275,966 l.; surplus, 639,465 l.; 1853–54, income, 26,586,826 l.; expenditure, 27,459,161 l.; deficit, 872,335 l. I confess it is with very great sorrow that I have to make this last statement, especially as the circumstances of the preceding year encouraged the expectation of a different result. But, taking the last three years together, there is a surplus of income over expenditure. When there is a great variation in different years, and the balances sometimes stand over, so that the expenditure of each year does not accurately represent the charge of the year, it is fair, I think, to take the average income and expenditure of two or three years. On the whole, therefore, I by no means despair of future years, although, when there is so large a deficit staring us in the face, it might appear at first sight to be somewhat disheartening, and it renders it necessary to postpone some changes in the taxation of India, which I am anxious to see effected. Hon. Members must remember that the revenue of India is not like the revenue of this country, in which a reduction of one item leads perhaps to an increase in another. In the great item of the land revenue, which furnishes by far the largest portion of the revenue of India, there can be no increase. With regard to Bengal, the terms of the settlement preclude any possibility of increase from that source. In the North-Western Provinces, where the leases are granted for a long term of years, and in Bombay, where the land is also leased for terms of years, there cannot, at any rate until the expiration of those leases, be any increase of revenue from that source. With regard to Madras, I am afraid, so far as the land revenue goes, that, whatever may ultimately be the case, the first operation will result in a re-
1442
duction. I will not raise again the question which was discussed some nights ago as to the tenure of land in Madras. It is substantially a tenure subject to a very heavy quit-rent; and though a most able officer, Colonel Cotton, who is acquainted with public works there, states that it would be easier to raise the land to the value of the assessment than to reduce the assessment to the rent which might be fairly paid, there can be little doubt that the assessments in this portion of the presidency ought to be reduced. I am inclined to think that, in the end, the effect of reducing the assessments would be to bring a greater amount of land into cultivation, and ultimately perhaps to bring up the land revenue of Madras to a considerable extent; yet, in the first instance, a reduction would inevitably follow the first alteration of assessment. At present, all that it is necessary to say is, that it is impossible to expect any addition to the land revenue of Madras; and that, taking the land revenue of India over all the presidencies, no increase can be expected from that source for some time to come. The next item of revenue in India is opium, which amounts sometimes to 4,000,000 l., and is sometimes much lower. There is an estimated deficit for this year; but as I am of opinion, whether the rebels or the supporters of the present dynasty in China ultimately have possession of that country, that the use of opium will not diminish, and as I believe that the Indian opium is of a very excellent quality, better than any produced in China, I think it likely that the demand for opium from that country will not materially diminish, and that the revenue may by possibility be maintained. Still it is one of a most uncertain character, and we should be building our calculations upon a most unsubstantial foundation if we based them upon any anticipated permanent increase from that source. The next great item of revenue is salt. I cannot forget that in the last Session of Parliament the House of Commons came to a vote—an ill-advised one, as I think—upon the subject of salt. The subject of the salt duty in India could not properly or fairly be dealt with in the state of feeling which was engendered in this country with regard to it some years ago, when it was one only of many objectionable taxes paid by the people. It was quite right to abolish it here. But in India the people have long been accustomed to it—as nearly the only tax on any articles

1443
of their consumption. You can hardly deny that it is reasonable and fair that the mass of the people of India should in some way contribute to the revenue of the country. This is almost the only tax which they pay. It is one to which they have been accustomed, and it is one which does not in any way whatever press heavily upon those who are subjected to it. Since that debate took place a most interesting document has been placed in my hand—a statistical paper which has been prepared by a medical man at Calcutta, and which was printed, I believe, in some of the Calcutta journals. He took very great pains in inquiring from persons who came under his charge into the condition of the peasantry of that part of the country; and it may be satisfactory to the Committee that I should read the conclusions which he ar-ives at from his investigations. He goes at great detail into the quantity of food which they are able to consume, and he compares it with the most authentic information which he can obtain from all parts of the civilised world, including Europe, Asia, and America. Giving in a detailed shape the amounts obtained, he thus sums up the conclusions at which he arrives—
"Sufficiency of food and income in excess of necessary expenditure constitute two important elements of the public weal, and these would certainly appear to have been in existence in the portion of Bengal from which my observations are derived. That many and various social evils yet exist cannot be doubted; but want of means to procure a sufficiency of food for the retention of life and health would not appear to be one of them, except in special famine years, and so far Bengal may be considered to exhibit as small an average deficiency of the comforts of life as any modern nation."
That is, I think, a satisfactory account of the general state of the peasantry in that part of the Indian empire. With regard, however, to the particular point, of the sufficiency of the supply of salt—that was the subject of his closest investigation, and he gives the result of inquiries which he made from 100 patients taken indifferently in the hospital, whom he questioned upon that subject. Ninety eight out of 100 stated that the supply of salt was ample for all their purposes, and two only stated that it was insufficient. I think that that is answer enough to the statement which was pretty generally made, that the people in that country suffered grievously from toe inadequate supply of salt, produced, as it was said, by the monopoly of the East India Company. Monopoly it most undoubtedly is not—but I will only state,
1444
upon this branch of the case, with regard to the mode of collection, which was the subject of the vote last year, that a Commission was appointed by the Governor General to inquire into the subject, and that Mr. Plowden, a very able civil officer, was desired to investigate it. He has visited Bombay and Madras for that purpose, and, when the result of his inquiry shall be sent home from the Governor General, I shall have great pleasure in laying it upon the table of the House. But the Committee must be aware what a great objection there is to the introduction of a system of Excise into India—an objection in which I shall be supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle, who stated that nothing could be more cruel and oppressive than the mod which the Native collectors of the revenue discharged their functions. If you do establish an Excise, however, you must, for the protection of the revenue, increase the number of Native officers, and, with the number, increase their means of extortion and oppression. With regard to the only other item from which any considerable amount is produced namely, the Customs revenue, which produces, exclusively of salt, about 1,000,000 l. a year—I fear that until the exports from India can be materially increased we cannot expect any great augmentation from that source. There has been a gradual increase of late years, and I hope that the exports from that country will increase. My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Mr. Gregson) certainly leads me to hope that there may be in the present demand for fibrous substances some increase in the export of those articles from India. They do exist there in great quantities, and but a very insufficient proportion is brought to this country. I am aware the chairman of the Liverpool East Indian Association does not entertain any very lively expectation of a large amount being brought from that country; but the hon. Member for Lancaster knows the country, and I hope that he is right in his expectations. My own attention was attracted to the fact that large quantities of flax are absolutely burnt in Scinde, the only value which is attached to it being on account of the oil which is contained in the seed. I have desired the Governor of Bombay to ascertain if more of this flax could be sent to England, and I have requested the Governor General to consider the whole subject of the fibrous substances produced on the

1445
shores of the Bay of Bengal, and to send over any reasonable quantities of articles of that description which may be fairly submitted to the manufacturers of this country; because it is impossible that there can be any supply of hemp or flax or fibrous substances produced in any quantity of which our manufacturers would not be able to avail themselves. This being the case, I am afraid that there is no prospect—certainly no positive prospect—of an increased revenue in India, while in most of the items of expenditure I fear that there is no prospect of any material diminution. The large item of expenditure in India is, as I said before, the army, and we have already undertaken the defence and the maintenance of the peace of a very large additional territory, without any material addition to the army. The whole of the territory of the Punjaub, besides the territories of Nagpoor and Pegu, have been occupied, and the only addition which has been made in respect of the army has been two European regiments and the three not yet formed which were authorised by Parliament last year. With so much additional territory, it could hardly be supposed that an increased military force would not be requisite, and I fear, therefore, that we can hardly expect any great diminution in the expenses under that head. If you will refer to the statistical papers which were laid upon the table of the House last year, you will see how remarkably small is the number of troops by means of which our empire there has been maintained, especially when compared with the number of troops still supported by the Native States in India. Taking, in round numbers, the whole Queen's troops at 30,000, and the Europeans in the Company's service, including officers of Native regiments, at 20,000, we have a total of 50,000 Europeans. In addition to these there are 240,000 Natives, giving a total for Company's and Queen's army of 290,000. Beyond these, again, there are 30,000 contingents commanded by English, making altogether 320,000 men; while the few Native States that are left in India actually maintain for one description of force or another no less than 398,000 men. I do not think that we are justified, therefore, in anticipating any material diminution in that respect. When the means of communication shall be improved, and the power of moving troops from one part of the empire to another shall be facilitated, no doubt some reduction may be made;
1446
but, until that period arrives, it is not probable nor reasonable, with a great additional territory to be defended, that there can be any sensible reduction in the army expenses of India. With regard to other sources of expense I will, at present, only refer to two—first, public works; secondly, judicial establishments. I think the general feeling in the House last year, produced by the result of the examination before the Select Committee, was, that the expenditure under those two heads should be increased, and not diminished. Since that time I have derived much pleasure, as well as instruction, from the perusal of two very able publications connected with India; one by Colonel Cotton, upon the subject of public works, and the other by Mr. Norton, upon the subject of judicial establishments. Both writers, although they are not attached in any way to the Indian Government, distinctly point out the inadequacy of European agency, as they call it, with reference to the public works and the judicial establishments of India, and state that it is utterly impossible that either can be conducted properly without some increase in the number of Europeans employed in those departments. Now, I do not mean to say that we should take the opinions of those two gentlemen for more than they are worth; but, at all events, they show, I think, the necessity which exists for an increased European agency, if we expect the public works and the judicial establishments to be properly conducted, and their expenditure carefully watched, I have since talked the matter over with Colonel Cotton, and he is strongly of opinion that, unless we do send out European superintendents, we shall be throwing a great deal of money absolutely away. There is another source of expenditure which I may mention, namely, that upon education, and I refer to it only to say that I am quite sure nobody will grudge the sum to be expended under that head. I have now mentioned three great sources of expenditure in which it is clear an increase, and not a diminution, must take place, and upon those great main heads of expenditure, therefore, reduction is pretty nearly out of the question. There is, however, one considerable source of expenditure upon which I am happy to say we have been able to effect a considerable reduction. I refer to the interest paid on the Indian debt. Nothing has given me greater satisfaction than to have been able

1447
to complete—for although the transaction has not been altogether brought to a close, it has substantially been, to all intents and purposes, completed—the conversion of the India 5 per cents, which are now altogether reduced to a maximum interest of 4 per cent, with the exception of some old bonds payable at a certain time, and with the exception of a small portion of the 5 per cents, which have been paid in cash. I will state to the House what the result of that operation has been. A similar operation, but to a much smaller extent, took place in 1847, and on my accession to the office which I have now the honour to hold, I sent out directions to the Governor General to proceed at once to reduce the whole of the 5 per cents. He proceeded to do so with great discretion and judgment, and the following was the result of the operation up to the end of May last. The first debt operated upon was that of the transfer loan (England) for 3,411,000 l. Of that sum there has been transferred to the 4 per cents, 2,734,000 l.; taken in cash, 707,000 l. The whole amount of the general debt at 5 per cent, which was next to be operated upon, was 23,771,000 l. Of that sum 20,701,000 l. have been transferred, 1,370,000 l. have been taken in cash, and 1,700,000 l. remained at that time untouched. The demand for cash very considerably increased when the funds of this country fell; and the operation of the war naturally produced an effect in India, so that those who would have converted their 5 per cents into 4 per cents demanded immediate payment in cash. But, prior to the despatch of the last accounts, the market here had turned, and therefore I think in all probability the demands for cash, after the arrival of those accounts, would not be in greater proportion to the conversions than they had been in the month preceding the departure of the latest advices from India. In estimating, therefore, what may be done with the 1,700,000 l. which remained unaccounted for in May last, I will presume that they will be transferred or taken in cash in the same proportions as the transactions of the preceding month. If that be so, then 1,200,000 l. will be transferred, and 500,000 l. will be taken in cash. Of the whole 5 per cents, therefore—23,771,000 l. —21,901,000 l. will be transferred, and 1,870,000 l. taken in cash. But I do not think that even that gives a fair representation of the result of this operation. It is the practice in India to have what is
1448
called an open loan; that is to say, any person who at any time pays money to the Government receives a certain amount of interest. Now, it so happened that at the time this conversion scheme was commenced, there was an open 4 per cent loan, which was closed in the month of September last, a new 3½ per cent loan having been opened since that date. Since the period of the conversions there have been paid into the 4 per cent and 3½ per cent loans, independently of the sums which have been taken in cash from the 5 per cents, and avowedly paid into the 4 per cent loan, 1,130,000½. Now, practically, that is a conversion, because as much money has been contributed to the 4 per cent and 3½ per cent loans as has been taken from the 5 per cents, and therefore to that amount we have not paid cash, but have merely converted one denomination of stock into another. The House will perceive, therefore, that we have actually paid in cash the sum of 740,000 l. only. The general result of the whole transaction, including both that portion which was executed prior to my accession to office, and the conversions which the Governor General has been able to effect in consequence of the directions which I sent to him, may be stated in a few words. The total sum to be operated upon amounted to 27,212,000 l. There have been transferred directly or virtually in the manner I have described 25,765,000 l., there have been taken in cash 1,447,000 l., and the whole of the 5 per cent debt has been extinguished. Upon the portion which has been transferred there is a saving of 1 per cent, and upon the portion which has been paid off there is of course a saving of 5 per cent. The amount saved by the reduction of interest upon the amount transferred is 257,650 l., and the saving upon the amount paid up in cash is 72,350 l., making the annual saving upon the whole transaction 330,000 l. I think that is a very satisfactory operation to be executed in the face of a local war just concluded, and of a general war just commencing, and nothing could more clearly show the high estimation in which the stability of Indian finance is held by persons competent to form an opinion upon the subject. Now, Sir, there can be no doubt that, if I could have afforded it, there are two or three taxes in India which I should have been glad to have dealt with. There is the land tax of Madras, for example, which excited a great deal of disapprobation in

1449
the Select Committee, there is the Moturpha tax in the same presidency; and there are likewise certain discriminating duties which ought to be abolished altogether. But I cannot forget, and I hope the House will not forget, that the whole of the saving which I have just mentioned will be absorbed in the proposed increased expenditure for education and public works; and when I remember, too, that during last year there was a falling off in the opium revenue to the extent of about 600,000 l., I do not think I should be justified in urging upon the Indian Government any large reduction of taxation. With a deficiency last year of 800,000 l., with no prospect of any increase in the opium revenue, and with a certainty of an increased expenditure upon public works and education, I do not think it would be wise for me to recommend any reduction in the sources of revenue, although I admit—and Lord Dalhousie entirely agrees with me—that in many districts the land tax should be reduced. That will be done as soon as possible; but I am afraid that in the meantime no such reduction can he made, at any rate to any considerable extent. I do not know that upon the question of finance it will be necessary for me to trouble the House at any greater length. I have stated what the income in 1852 was, what the expenditure was, and what the surplus was; I have stated what the estimates are for 1853–4; I have shown that in some of the sources of expenditure there is a certainty of an increase, and I hope I have convinced the House that under all these circumstances it would be unwise to urge upon the Indian Government any considerable reduction of taxation. Having done so, I will now proceed to state, as shortly as I can, what the state of India is generally, and what have been the changes since last Session of Parliament. First of all, with respect to the political state of India, I may state that the principal event which has taken place since that time has been the complete settlement of the province of Pegu. No hostile attempt has been made against us on the part of the King of Ava. He is now satisfied that we do not intend to proceed further than we have already done. At the date of the last accounts trade was going on most satisfactorily both in Ava and Pegu. Our troops in Pegu were supplied with provisions from Ava, with the special leave and sanction of the King, and, in short, there was every
1450
prospect of friendly relations being speedily established between the British authorities and the King of Ava. I am sorry to say that large bands of freebooters were committing depredations in some of the districts; but still I can state that even those districts were more tranquil at the dates of the last accounts than they ever were under the rule of Burmah itself. Pegu is exceedingly rich in productions of all kinds. A great part of the land is admirably adapted for the growth of cotton; the timber is exceedingly valuable in the upper part of the province; and, upon the whole, there seems to be every prospect, however unwilling we may have been to make the acquisition—and I can state that no man was more so than the Governor General himself—of the province becoming one of our most valuable possessions in India. The House is aware that the Rajah of Nagpore recently died without leaving any successor to his throne, and that his State has consequently been annexed to the British territories. In the North-Western Provinces an amount of tranquillity prevails which, I believe, is perfectly unexampled. It is notorious that in the districts beyond the Indus several of the tribes have for many years pursued their depredations unchecked, and that very great forbearance has been shown to them. I am glad to say that, after unavailing attempts by peaceable means to ensure freedom from their attacks, they have at last been coerced by the military force sent against them, and that for the last eighteen months not a sword has been drawn in those districts. Our exertions to establish tranquillity within our own frontiers have likewise been most successful, and such a state of tranquillity as now prevails over the whole of the North-Western Provinces has never been experienced before. Some time ago I wrote to the Governor General directing him to endeavour to establish friendly relations with the Afghans. I am happy to say that he has succeeded in that attempt. A treaty has been concluded with the Chief of Kelat, in which we have stipulated to aid him in putting down the bands of robbers that infest his dominions, while he has stipulated to give a free passage to our merchandise through his country, upon the payment of the small and simple duty of six rupees per camel load. I trust that treaty will be the means of extending British trade in Persia and the other countries which lie beyond Kelat in Southern Afghanistan, and that we shall

1451
derive many important advantages from our alliance with the Chief of that people. With respect to Cabool, after the events which have taken place within the last few years, it was not, of course, to be expected that we should be able to establish friendly relations with it immediately. Since 1849 there has been complete friendliness shown on our part to all persons coming from Cabool into the British territories. All the frontier duties have been taken off, and the communication between the two countries is now very considerable. It cannot be denied, however, that the Chief of Cabool appears to have entertained apprehensions of some further attack on our part, but measures have been taken to reassure him upon that head; and I am glad to say that approaches have recently been made to us, in that secret and reserved manner which forms an essential part of Indian diplomacy and negotiation. The officers upon our frontiers have been desired to reciprocate those approaches in the same friendly manner in which they are made; and I hope I shall be able, in the next Session of Parliament, to report the establishment of amicable relations with the Chief of Cabool. With regard to the great country beyond—Persia—she is placed in a somewhat difficult position between her two great neighbours who are now at war with each other. The Shah has professed, and has maintained, an unbroken neutrality, which is at once calculated to serve his own interests, and to secure the approval of at least one of the parties in the present struggle. Neutrality is the policy which we have all along urged upon him, and we hope he will be wise enough to continue it. So much, Sir, for the political state of our Indian empire, which is most satisfactory. I am happy to say that the attention of the Government of India, no longer distracted by external circumstances, has recently been turned to the internal improvement of the country. Early in the present Session a question was addressed to me with reference to the employment of Native judges. The only answer I could give at that time was, that I had called the attention of the Governor General to it. I am now happy to state that he, as Governor of Bengal, has laid before the Government of India a scheme for improving the condition and increasing the salaries of the Native judges in Bengal, and for placing them in a much higher position than they have ever hitherto occupied. He has likewise laid a scheme be-
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fore them for the improvement of the police, for the inspection of gaols, and for the improvement of the roads. These measures have not yet received the final sanction of the Government of India; but I have no doubt that they will be pushed vigorously forward and carried efficiently into execution by the very able officer—Mr. Halliday—who has been recently appointed to preside over the Presidency of Bengal. With regard to the North-Western Provinces, I can never refer to them without expressing my regret at the serious loss they have sustained by the death of Mr. Thomason. A very able civil servant —Mr. Colvin—has been appointed to succeed him, and I have not the least doubt that this gentleman will discharge his important duties most efficiently. The only great event in the internal affairs of India which has taken place since last year has been the opening of that gigantic undertaking, the Ganges Canal, a work which, I believe, exceeds any other ever heard of, either in ancient or modern times. Without troubling the House with minute details, I may state, from a paper drawn up by Major Smith, the able engineer officer who succeeded Colonel Cautley in the superintendence of the works, that the length of the main canal, which will be used for the purposes both of irrigation and navigation, is 525 miles, and of the branches 373 miles; making altogether 898 miles. The breadth at the upper part is 140 feet, and in other places it is 80 feet, diminishing to 20 at its termination. The depth varies from 10 to 5 feet. The flow of water at the entrance is 6,750 cubic feet per second; the area of irrigation is about 1,500,000 acres, and the population deriving benefit from it amounts to about 6,000,000 of people. There are two watercourses over it, the one 300 and the other 200 feet wide, and the canal itself is carried over a valley in an aqueduct of magnificent proportions, composed of 15 arches of 50 feet span, and a waterway of 750 feet. Throughout its whole course there are side canals, where necessary, so that there cannot by any possibility be a stoppage in the navigation. Compare this gigantic undertaking with some of the existing works in other parts of the world. The principal Italian canals are only 114 miles long; the two great canals in Egypt are 120 miles in length; the Erie Canal is 363 miles long; the four largest French canals are only 582 miles in length; while the principal canals in

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Holland are not more than 400 miles. The Ganges Canal, therefore, is nearly twice as large as the greatest canals in any country in the world; and it has been constructed under the superintendence of a single man, Colonel Cantley, to whom the Governor General of India most deservedly paid the highest honours which it was in his power to bestow, and whom I had great satisfaction in recommending to Her Majesty, since he came home, for the distinction of the Bath, as an acknowledgment of the distinguished services he has rendered to the country. I will not trouble the House by any enumeration of what has been done in the Punjaub; but I cannot help pointing out the remarkable fact that, although only three years have elapsed between the battle of Goojerat and the date of the Report on the administration of the Punjaub, which is in the hands of Members, yet a large tract of country has been changed from a state of lawless violence to a state of peace and security, which is not surpassed in some of the oldest settlements in India. The land revenue has been reduced 25 per cent, the Customs duties have been repealed, and all this has been completed in little more than three years. This success has arisen from the adoption of what I hold to be a sound principle of Indian government, namely, European superintendence and Native agency; and the result is highly creditable to Lord Dalhousie, and the very able officers whom he employed. Here, too, they have opened about 1,350 miles of road, and surveyed about 5,200 miles more, and several hunched miles of canal have been commenced, in order to irrigate and bring into productive operation an enormous tract of country. In spite of the reduction of taxation there is still a surplus revenue. In 1849–50 that surplus was 520,000 l.; in 1851–52 it was 626,000 l.; in the next ten years, allowing for the great works in hand, it is estimated at 210,000 l., and after that at 500,000 l.; so that, when about 250,000 l. is deducted for military expenditure, there will be a considerable surplus in a country which has very recently been brought under British rule. Works are also in progress for the supply of water to the town of Bombay, which is much required; for it is a curious fact that one of the purposes to which the railway has been applied has been to bring fresh water into the town, a purpose which, among the many advantages the railway confers, was certainly not originally ex-
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pected from it. In the Presidency of Madras, the Godavery annicut is nearly completed, that on the Kistnah is commenced, and we have sanctioned considerable further outlay on the Coleroon. The survey of the river Godavery has been partially made. We have ordered vessels to be sent out, of higher power and less draught of water, to complete it; and should the river be navigable, I will not say at all times, but for the greater portion of the year, it will open up one of the greatest cotton districts in India, and bring down that valuable product at a much cheaper rate than any transmission by railway, to the great advantage of the people of this country. With regard to the great railways of India, hon. Gentlemen are aware that the great difficulty has been the want of money, owing to the state of the money market. Up to last year there had been considerable delay, but the Government determined then that the great railways in India must at all events be made. The change of circumstances in the money market, just about the time that determination was come to, raised a difficulty which had not been anticipated; but steps have now been taken to prevent any further delay in the execution of the works. In Calcutta the line is by this time opened for forty-six miles, and the works for 120 miles more are under contract—the great obstacle to more rapid progress being the insufficient supply of iron rails from this country. The Madras Railroad is going on slowly, without any obstacles, and the Bombay line is opened for some distance. With regard to the lines to the north-east from Bombay, some doubt exists as to crossing the Ghauts, and until the country has been surveyed and reports sent in, it is impossible to decide on the exact course. In the meantime there is as much to be done on the line of railway towards Poonah as the railway company is likely to be able to accomplish, so that I do not consider that any time is really lost. In the last few months a work of much less difficulty, but of very great utility, has been nearly completed. The electric telegraph is laid down all the way from Calcutta to Agra, and from Agra to Bombay. It is, we know, in active operation, because messages have been received by it; and, I believe, by this time it will have been carried to Delhi. This important work has excited the greatest sympathy among the Natives of India, and it is satisfactory to find it can so easily be effected and maintained through the wild

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and desolate country which it must traverse in so great a distance. Great credit is due to the able officer, Dr. O'Shaughnessy, by whose zeal and skill this important work has been executed. An uniform postage, by means of a stamp, as in this country, has been established throughout India. The clothing of the troops has been put upon a proper footing, and various improvements of minor importance have been made, with which I will not now trouble the Committee. I will pass now to what has been done in execution of the provisions of the Act of Parliament of last Session. We have received intelligence of the assembling of the new Legislative Council at Calcutta, but it has only had time, subsequent to its meeting, to go through some formal proceedings. The House is, no doubt, aware that the Court of Directors, in conformity with another provision of the Act, have performed, with a single-minded view of what would be best for the public interest, the most painful task of reducing their own numbers to fifteen, and those numbers have been filled up by the addition of three named by the Crown. Some difficulty, it will be remembered, was anticipated that the Court so constituted might not work well together, but I am happy to say that such apprehensions have proved altogether unfounded. By the concurrent testimony of all parties, I am happy to say, no difference of the kind apprehended has existed, but the whole eighteen members have worked together as cordially as if they owed their origin to exactly the same authority. I feel here bound to bear my tribute of testimony to the assistance I have received from the whole of these Directors, and I think great advantage has been derived from their independent character, and the knowledge which they possess from having, as is the case with most of them, been so long in India. On all the important subjects which it has been my duty to bring before them I have found great readiness on their part to concur in what I thought necessary for the public interest. Passing from this point, it is desirable I should inform the House that the Law Commissioners appointed for the purpose of revising the imperfect legal procedures relating to India have not yet been enabled to bring into the shape of an Act of Parliament any measure which could be submitted for consideration this year; but I hope that, early next Session, I shall be able to carry out a Bill with a view to dealing with the Supreme Court in
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Calcutta, and in India generally to revise the forms both of civil and criminal procedure. Though nothing has been done in this direction in the present year, I hope next Session that a proposition will be brought forward for the establishment of a system of procedure even more simple than the improved system recently introduced into this country by the common consent of the most advanced lawyers both in this and in the other House of Parliament. Upon this subject legislation in this country has made great strides within the last year or two, and it is highly desirable that India should have the benefit of our improved legislation. A Commission for inquiring into and revising legal procedure is also sitting at Calcutta, of whose labours we shall have the benefit. Between the two, therefore, I hope that the present form of Indian judicature may undergo complete revision, and that a simple mode of procedure, easily intelligible to the Natives, will bring justice home to every man's door in a way which certainly has not been the case hitherto. With regard to the regulations for the examination of the assistant surgeons, I believe I have already stated to the House on a previous occasion that the first examination will take place in January next; it will be conducted on the principles of competition, and henceforward the examination will be taken half-yearly. As respects the admission to Haileybury, I was in hopes to have been able to state the regulations under which students might be admitted there by competition. The House is, no doubt, aware that no nomination can take place since the operation of the Act in April last, but a certain number of nominations had been made before that time which have not been taken up, and of course until those have been taken up there can be no admission by competition. Some time since I requested a number of gentlemen, most of them friends of my own, who felt an interest in this subject, to take it into their consideration. Among them was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay), the Vice Chancellor of the London University, Mr. John Lefevre, Lord Ashburton, Mr. Jowett, a distinguished member of Balliol College, and the Rev. Henry Melvill, the head of Haileybury. As soon as I am informed of the result of their deliberations, I shall be enabled to promulgate the regulations which may be necessary with respect to admission to Haileybury, and next sum-

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mer admission will probably take place by competition. There are now only two other subjects upon which I need trouble the House, both of which excited the greatest attention before the Committees of last year—I mean those of public works and education in India. The system of public works is one to which my attention was very early directed, and I could not but perceive the utter want of system with which they were conducted throughout India. The reports of Lord Elphinstone and of Lord Harris as to Bombay and Madras entirely confirm this view. Works appear to have been sanctioned and undertaken in India with very little regard to what could possibly be carried out, and it was impossible to know how much had been done or when it was done. Now, the estimates of public works in India ought to be framed annually, as they are in this country; and I have sent out a model upon which the estimates there should be framed, so that we may be informed what the total cost of each work will be, what has been the expenditure in each year, and what is required to complete it. So far as Bengal and the North-Western Provinces are concerned, there is already organised a separate department of public works, and I hope in the other provinces some similar system will before long be adopted, so that we shall have some responsible head for the management of this important department. The next essential consideration is the means of executing the works. Hitherto the only fund applicable in this way has been the surplus revenue in each district. Now, I thought that was not only bad economy, but was unduly postponing the benefit which the inhabitants, and ultimately the revenue, should derive from the execution of these works. I, therefore, have proposed to expend upon the main and principal public works as large a sum as may be found adequate for the purpose of completing them. Whilst the conversion of the 5 per cents was going on and we did not know what the drain on the treasury might be, we were obliged to reserve our balances in hand, but now we are at liberty to act more freely, and the Governor General is authorised to apply the necessary money to the execution of these great works. The real check upon the execution of these works not only now, but in former times, is the want of adequate superintendence. Money has been thrown away for the want of that superintendence.
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The engineer officers are employed on this service to the utmost extent which is compatible with the efficiency of their corps. Officers are largely withdrawn from the other regiments; civil engineers are not to be had; and all we can do is to supply the deficiency as well and as rapidly as we can. I trust the colleges now being established will induce many to educate themselves as civil engineers; but it is now only too true that the superintendence is deficient, and there are no very obvious means of supplying that deficiency. I now come to the last, and certainly not the least important, subject on which I shall trouble the House, and that is, the measures taken for supplying the great want of education in India. It would be most unjust to many persons not to pay a tribute of praise to them for what they have done, or to deny that a great deal has been done for promoting education in India; but I think, at the same time, it was evident from the evidence given before the Committee, that a great deal still remained to be done. Sir Thomas Munro, Mr. Wilson, Sir Charles Trevelyan, Mr. Macaulay, Mr. Bethune, Dr. Mouatt, Mr. George Norton, and my hon. Friend opposite (Sir E. Perry), are among the persons to whom honour is due. The members of the various missionary societies have, likewise, been most energetic to promote the cause of education. But certainly no persons can give stronger testimony than those gentlemen who have done the most as to how much remains to be done. They, by experience, are acquainted with what is wanted, and can point out the best way to provide it. The system of education appears to be different in different provinces. In Bengal, English education has been pushed to a very high extent; there has been there a great demand for the acquisition of the English language, with a view to employment in the public offices; and hon. Members may have seen, in examination, papers used in Bengal, which were printed in the appendix to the Report of the Lords' Committee, questions which I confess I should be very sorry to have put to me, and which probably many Gentlemen round me would find some difficulty in answering. Accompanying that high English education, there has, however, been in Bengal a great neglect of the education of the masses of the people. On the other hand, in the North-Western Provinces, Mr. Thompson established a system of schools for the Natives, which the people were induced to

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attend; by the advantage to be derived from learning the mensuration of land and the mode of calculating their holdings, Dr. Mouatt, who has recently been the Secretary to the Council of Education in Bengal, admitted that in practical and useful knowledge conveyed to the people in the vernacular, the schools in Bengal were very far inferior to those established by Mr. Thomason in the North-West Provinces. In Bombay there are very good mixed English and vernacular schools, and in Madras Lord Elphinstone exhibited a remarkably good college; but religious disputes unfortunately have prevailed there, and, so far as Government schools go, they are worth very little. On the other hand, the efforts of the missionaries have been more developed in Madras than anywhere else, and the vernacular education of the missionary schools is carried to a far greater extent there than in any other part of India. The medical college of Calcutta produces most exceedingly skilful pupils, and, wherever medicine has been taught, it has been taught with very great success. The working college of Roorkee, which has taken the name of its founder, Mr. Thomason, promises very well in drawing out engineering abilities. In Calcutta, the Governor General has established a college where medicine, law, and civil engineering are taught, and this promises good results, for by far the greatest defect of the education given in India is its want of a practical character. I am far from underrating any part of the education which is imparted under the system now followed in the various provinces, but the great object of any system of education in India must be to extend it to the great body of the people. Hitherto the greatest expenditure in proportion to the numbers has been upon education of a high description, and this appears to us to be wrong. Education of the higher class may be left to the care of the parties themselves who are to benefit by it, and who can appreciate its advantages; but what is really wanted for India is the extension of education to the great body of the people, and this has been the main end kept in view in the proposals we have made. With this object, we shall take every desirable part of the system we see existing in one part of India or the other, and endeavour to form a scheme which may be adapted to the whole country, leaving the details to be filled up by the authorities on the spot. We lay down a general scheme which they are to work out as
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the circumstances of each district seem to require. The great features of the scheme are so fully explained in the despatch which has been placed in the hands of hon. Members, that it will be unnecessary for me to detain the House by dwelling upon them at any length, nor would it be possible for me to state the details with much minuteness, as these must differ in different places and with different circumstances, and it is proposed to leave them to be carried out on the spot by the officers employed in the educational department. Hon. Gentlemen are aware that in India, as I am sorry to say is the case in this country, religious differences oppose a very great obstacle to the adoption of any uniform system of education. We have determined, however, to carry out a system which, I believe, is likely to succeed—that is, a system of grants in aid to schools according to their wants and their means of imparting education, irrespective of any religious instruction administered in those schools. We propose to put them all under inspection, requiring certain things from them—certain things to be taught and done. Such schools will be reported upon, and, according to their compliance with these requirements, they will receive assistance from the Government. I repeat, however, that as regards all religious teaching we carefully abstain from any interference whatever. That has been the principle upon which Indian government has been conducted for many years past, and it is, I believe, the only safe system upon which it can be conducted in that country. I am perfectly convinced that if the Government were to introduce into India any system of education which should lead the Natives to suppose that we had a wish to proselytise them, it would only injure and prevent that result which we all wish to see produced—I mean the advancement of education. I am, therefore, most anxious it should be fully understood that we give assistance to missionary, to Mahomedan, to Hindoo schools, and to any schools, of whatever religious faith they may be; that we look only to the secular education imparted there, requiring it to be of sufficiently high standing, and requiring the education to be properly imparted; but that we in no way want to interfere with the religious belief or the religious teaching in those schools. We propose to establish universities in the great centres of the Indian presidencies on the model of the London University—that is,

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with the power of conferring degrees after examination, without themselves engaging in the instruction of students. The universities will be at the head of affiliated colleges or institutions, as is the case with the London University. The affiliated institutions will include colleges of any religious persuasion—missionary, Hindoo, Mahomedan, or Government colleges. Every place of instruction, indeed, which gives an education sufficiently high to enable a person to obtain a degree, may be affiliated. Below these colleges we propose to have schools of two different classes. I do not like to distinguish these schools by the terms "Anglo-vernacular" and "vernacular" schools, for those terms do not express what we mean; but probably in the lower of these classes it may be found impossible to teach anything but the Native language, whilst in the class of schools above them I hope that both the English language and the vernacular dialects of India will be taught. At present, one of the greatest difficulties interposed in the way of Native education is the want of books in the vernacular languages of which the contents are valuable and worth teaching, but to some extent at least this want may be supplied, and at all events we may confidently look forward to the greater diffusion of the English language amongst the Native population, and with it a knowledge of the science and arts of Europe. We propose to establish scholarships as prizes from the lower schools, presenting to the students rewards which the more diligent and exemplary may hope to obtain. We hope from amongst the better scholars to find some who may adopt the profession of teaching, and do something to supply the great want of educated schoolmasters. There have been many instances of Native students of superior endowments, well fitted for the vocation of schoolmasters, and whom we should be willing and anxious to train up as teachers by the establishment of normal and training schools for schoolmasters. We propose to place the whole of these institutions under constant inspection, and examinations will be regularly conducted under the eyes of the Government inspectors. We think, also, that instead of continuing the Councils of Education, it would be far better that the educational system should be under the control of a Government department. I am very far from underrating the exertions which have been made by those Native and English gentlemen who are members of the
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Councils of Education, and I trust that most of them will continue to render their assistance in the promotion of education as members of the senates of the universities; but I think it is advisable that the system of education should be placed under the superintendence of a Government department. We also contemplate either the establishment of professional colleges or the appropriation of branches of the colleges to the purpose of instruction in professional knowledge. Students who display talent for particular professions—as, for instance, for engineering or medicine— may then be enabled to cultivate their abilities in these professional institutions. We shall thus provide, in truth, for promoting the education of the higher classes by the distinctions afforded in the universities for those who complete their education in the colleges, and for that of the mass of the people in the different classes of schools. In the lower class of schools we shall provide a native schoolmaster, with assistance in books and scholarships in the class above. For the upper class we shall give assistance towards the erection of school-houses, with scholarships to the colleges; and for the students most proficient in the end there will be scholarships in the training schools or the professional colleges. This is the scheme which, on the whole, I have thought it most advisable to adopt; but the Committee will give me credit for sincerity when I say that I have the greatest possible diffidence in my own judgment, and that I shall be overjoyed to have the assistance and advice of those who are competent, by their knowledge of the country, and acquaintance with the habits and dispositions of the Natives, to offer suggestions on this important subject. If, however, the scheme had rested entirely upon my own judgment, I should have hesitated in entertaining any very sanguine hope of its success; but I have consulted many gentlemen who, from the great interest they have taken in the question of education in India, were well qualified to afford sound advice upon the subject. I may content myself with observing that the plan has been submitted to Dr. Duff, with whom I had a long conversation regarding it, to my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay), to the hon. and learned Member for Devonport (Sir E. Perry), to Mr. Marshman, Sir Edward Ryan, Dr. Mouatt (the Secretary to the Council of Education in Calcutta), to Mr. Beadon, and Mr. Seton Carr, to Mr.

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Norton (who was President of the Council of Education at Madras), Mr. Prinsep, Mr. Baillie, as well as other gentlemen of eminence connected with the Indian service, and it is most gratifying to me to be able to state, without referring to details, that the general scheme which I have proposed has met with their approval. I trust, after the approbation they have expressed of the scheme, that it may be attended with satisfactory results. Much will depend on the hands to which the actual working of the system is confided; but when I look at the number of persons, both English and Native, who have devoted themselves to the cause of education in India, I cannot entertain a doubt that the adequate means of carrying it into execution will be found, and most earnestly do I pray that by the blessing of Providence its benefical influence may be extended over the whole surface of that vast region, so that the grand and lasting result to which we may look forward will be the moral and religious improvement of its inhabitants.
SIR ERSKINE PERRYsaid, he trusted he should not be thought presumptuous if he ventured to take a part in this discussion, although he felt that he was more in need of indulgence than almost any one who had called the attention of the House to Indian affairs, for he was unable to bring before them any of those topics so well adapted to excite attention which had generally been urged in Indian debates. He was neither able to adduce such instances of misgovernment as had occasionally been brought forward, nor to paint such glowing pictures of prosperity as had been described by the hon. Member for Honiton (Sir J. Hogg) and other hon. Gentlemen. He (Sir E. Perry) hoped the Committee would believe that the opinions he was about to express had been formed without any personal bias one way or the other, his only object having been a sincere desire to ascertain the truth. He had heard the speech of the right hon. Baronet (Sir C. Wood) with unmixed gratification. He (Sir E. Perry) was satisfied that he represented the opinions of thinking people in India when he said, that that speech would be hailed as the most promising with regard to political prospects that had ever been addressed to them from this country. The right hon. Baronet had frankly admitted that the estimates he had framed presented what was certainly an alarming deficit, but, notwithstanding this circumstance, he had detailed the operations which he proposed
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with respect to four great subjects intimately connected with the prosperity of India. The despatches that had been laid upon the table showed that the right hon. Baronet had given to public works in India a stimulus such as those enterprises had never before received. The Governor General and the Governors of the different presidencies had been allowed to avail themselves of the large balances standing in the public Treasury, independently of the revenue of the year, in order to promote any public enterprise characterised by sound engineering skill, or which had local evidence in its favour. With respect to the judicial establishment, also, hints had been given to the Governor General as to the pay of Native judges—a subject on which so much evidence was taken before the Parliamentary Committees of last year, and on which a very strong feeling existed both in this country and in India. The right hon. Baronet had effected a very large and beneficial operation on the funded debt of India, by reducing the interest from 5 per cent to 4 per cent. If the tenure of the right hon. Gentleman's office was to be characterised by the measure of education he had sketched, he (Sir E. Perry) would be bold to say that the name of Sir Charles Wood would be linked by the grateful Natives of India with the two or three English names they loved to honour. He (Sir E. Perry) cordially concurred with every portion of the educational scheme of the right hon. Gentleman. For years past the educationists of India had been appealing to the home authorities for that assistance and encouragement which was now to be afforded them. They had previously appealed in vain for assistance to enable them to establish normal schools, training colleges, universities, and to promote education generally, but now, for the first time, did they find anything like large and general support extended to them by the home authorities. He considered that the gratitude of India was due to the right hon. Gentleman for having proposed these measures, which emanated, be believed, from the Board of Control. Although, however, he (Sir E. Perry) had listened to the speech of the right hon. Baronet with unmixed gratification, he could not help observing, from the demeanour of the House, and from the thinness of the benches, and even of the Treasury bench, that very little interest in discussions of this kind was shown within the walls of that House. It certainly

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might have been expected that the colleagues of the right hon. Baronet (Sir C. Wood) would have attended to hear what was certainly one of the most glowing pictures of India that had ever been drawn. He, however, attributed their absence and the dulness of demeanour that had characterised the House to the fact that discussions of this kind did not appear to lead to any practical result. He thought it was necessary, in order to excite the attention of the House, that hon. Members should feel that they were being instructed with a view to some operation on their part, or to some active demonstration to which they could lend aid. It had been the characteristic of all the Indian discussions of this nature that they took place in almost empty Houses. On the last occasion when a similar budget was opened, only about thirty Members were present, although the Duke of Wellington made an admirable speech in favour of his brother's administration. It was then, as it was now, and as it would continue to be, the general feeling of the House, that the information afforded by Indian discussions of this kind might be just as well gained from blue books. He (Sir E. Perry) thought, however, that a very important moral might be drawn from what they had heard from the President of the Board of Control to-night. If he (Sir E. Perry) had correctly characterised the scheme propounded by the right hon. Baronet for the government of India, it appeared to him the strongest argument that could be adduced in favour of a proposition brought before the House many times last year, as to the value of Parliamentary interference with respect to the great principles that should govern our rule in India. He attributed entirely to the Parliamentary discussions that had taken place, and to the Act that had emanated from them, the very great strides in administration which had been made with respect to India during the last twelve months. That Act very much enhanced the position of the President of the Board of Control; it greatly diminished the power of the Court of Directors; it threw increased responsibility upon the Ministers of the Crown; and the very statement that had been made that night afforded the strongest possible demonstration of the value of the plans propounded in that House last year. The proposition brought before the House last year was one which was most interesting to many thinking men out of doors; it occupied
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much public attention, and was re-echoed loudly by the press, and in the House was ably and eloquently urged by the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), the main point being the general feeling which existed of the necessity of some Parliamentary influence with respect to the government of India. The hon. Member for Manchester brought forward his arguments on various occasions, always urging the necessity of such Parliamentary influence, and he (Sir E. Perry) took the liberty of saying, that the arguments by which the hon. Member for Manchester supported his propositions excited the admiration, if not of that House, of which at that time he (Sir E. Perry) was not a Member, of people out of doors, and he believed the soundness of his views, and the felicity with which he expressed those views, raised him, even in the opinion of Members of the House, to the highest rank of Parliamentary orators. In his own opinion, the breadth of the views propounded by that hon. Member, and the vigorous grasp he took of a difficult subject, convinced him that he was equal to all the exigencies of government, and was blessed with the possession of a statesmanlike mind, which, if he had had the opportunity, would place him in the first class of statesmen, as well as of Parliamentary debaters. He (Sir E. Perry) deduced from the topics which, upon the present occasion, had been so well brought forward by the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Control an argument in behalf of that position, and he was anxious to demonstrate that Parliament had never interfered with respect to India, except under the most beneficial auspices. It was a Parliamentary struggle which, twenty years ago, opened the trade of India to English merchants. It was by another Parliamentary struggle about the same period that the China trade was emancipated from monopoly; it was Parliament that first introduced education into India, that gave it that stimulus from which such great effects had resulted, and it was Parliament which by its last Act passed with reference to the subject, had interfered most beneficially to destroy what he conceived was one of the worst parts of the government of the Company—namely, the civil patronage it enjoyed, and which English statesmen knew had operated so injuriously to the good government of that country. The general objection brought forward to Parliamentary influence with

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India was, that it would reduce the Government of that empire to the condition of that of one of our Colonies, that Parliamentary influence with our Colonies had been generally deprecated, and Indian reformers were asked, whether they would have a system of ruling which was so deprecated introduced into that large country? That was the position which was thrust into their faces; but the House would observe there was one thing which, in the consideration of this matter, ought to be weighed most carefully; and that was, the extraordinary difference existing between the Colonies of this country and the empire of India. With respect to the Colonies in connection with this country, he might presume to speak with some degree of authority, having lived in one of them, and it would be found, as a general rule, that they were inhabited by an Anglo-Saxon democratic people, struggling for self-government, and animated by few of those feelings of interest in the aristocracy which appertained to the mother country. In general they had obtained self-government; they had, however, been unruly; the mother country had been annoyed during the struggle, but in the main they had succeeded in obtaining good government. India, on the contrary, was a large peninsula, a populous country, necessarily under a despotism, and it was, therefore, as utterly dissimilar in its condition to any of our Colonies as one country could be to another; to compare India with a colony was to compare two countries wholly different in their characteristics. It was, however, unnecessary to institute such a comparison, or to found any argument upon it, because we had an example of colonial government as applied to an Asiatic colony in direct juxtaposition with the government of India, and that example was to be found in the island of Ceylon, and he could show the House that that colony had during the last two or three years progressed in a more rapid and extraordinary manner than even India itself—
"In 1834 the first coffee estates were planted. In 1854 there were upwards of 300 plantations in full bearing, containing 60,000 acres of planted land. The capital thus invested by Europeans has been about 4,000,000 l. Between the years 1838 and 1843 the Ceylon Government sold 250,000 acres of Crown land, and opened 800 miles of good carriage-road. There are now more than 3,000 miles of road in Ceylon. In 1837 the coffee shipped amounted to 43,000 cwt.; in 1852 to 324,000 cwt. In 1837 the value of the imports was 595,888 l., that of the exports 326,860 l. In
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1845 they amounted to 1,495,127 l. and 679,286 l. respectively."
That was the wonderful state of progress in that island during the period he had described, and it was entirely owing to European enterprise and the investment of European capital giving to that island large views of government. While, then, he expressed his own opinion as to the views which were brought forward last year upon this subject, and advocated so strongly, he entreated the House to remember the manner in which those views were met by the leading statesmen of this country; they were met in a manner which led to the material curtailment of the power of the Court of Directors, and to the transfer of that power, and with it the responsibility it entailed, to the Government. The Court of Directors was a mighty power; it had all the prestige attaching to the prolonged existence of 250 years; its antecedents and its history were the antecedents and the history of a power of no small importance. Its gigantic patronage had given it relations and interest in every household of the kingdom; its claims in the opinion of all sober-minded men were substantial, and on conservative affections could not be otherwise than great; but, notwithstanding all this, when the views to which he had referred were propounded in that House and disseminated out of doors, excepting the immediate retainers of the Company, not a single voice was raised in its favour. In no other way could that be explained than in this:—The leading statesmen of this country saw that the existing system had become effete—that it was no longer in harmony with the spirit of the times—and that the feeling had grown up in the minds of men that this mighty empire could only be governed and be increased with safety by those who, in a Parliamentary government like that of England, were placed at the head of affairs. Parliament required to know, and India required to know, how the government of 150,000,000 of the human race was to be conducted, and the circumstances of the time demanded that its administration should be brought under Parliamentary influence, for as long as another body existed, which practically had the government of India, they would never get a House—more than they had that night— to listen to a statement respecting Indian financial affairs or the progress of improvement in that country. If the right hon. Baronet or the House referred to the origin

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of the Indian speeches which they might read in Hansard, they would find that in many cases they were never made in the House at all, being the production of some clerk in the India House, who used to prepare them, and then, after Mr. Dundas had delivered a few sentences to the House, the MS. was handed over to Hansard; he was even told that the clerk in the Board of Control could show a number of the speeches got up in that manner. Unless, therefore, they got the ordinary Parliamentary motives to bear in relation to this question, it never could be a general subject of interest to the discussion of which hon. Members would aspire. He was glad to have had the opportunity of stating his views on this point, believing as he did that truth, although it might be told to an audience however small, would ascend in the world, and, being disseminated, take firm hold of the public mind, arming itself at last with irresistible power. He was unwilling to dwell longer on this subject, but he wished before he sat down to call the attention of the House to a point connected with finance, on which he conceived it might interfere most beneficially in the interest of India—he meant with respect to the propriety of an arrangement for bringing the offices of the Directors of the East India Company into close connection with the Government offices. That subject excited the attention of Parliament last Session, and if any hon. Gentleman would refer to the divisions which took place on it, he would find the House was almost equally divided on the question before them. The division, he recollected, was sixty-one to seventy-four, the proposition for bringing those offices together being negatived by a majority of thirteen, and in the minority of sixty-one would be found the names of a large number of Gentlemen on that side of the House who were known friends of India. The right hon. Baronet had detailed to them that evening the various expenses of India, and it certainly did strike him (Sir E. Perry) that it was most absurd that the offices of two consulting bodies should be more than four miles apart. He thought he could show the House how they could save to India at least 150,000 l. The whole cost of what he might call the double government, taking it on the most moderate calculation, was as follows:—Salaries of Court of Directors (now 10,000 l.), 7,568 l.; of contingent expenses, consisting of repairs, taxes, &c., and petty charges, 32,062 l.;
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salaries, &c., of the secretaries and officers of Court of Directors, 94,387 l.; Board of Control and establishment, 29,420 l.; rent of India House and other buildings of the Company, at 6½ per cent on their own valuation of 506,919 l., 32,950 l.; rent for India Board, on a valuation of 40,000 l., 2,600 l.—making, in the whole, 198,987 l. Now, let them contrast that with the cost of Government offices which transacted similar duties—he meant the Colonial Office, doing the business of fifty-three Governments, which amounted to 40,550 l., and if they added 10,000 l. a year as salaries of the Court of Directors, supposing them to continue always in existence, the whole cost would be 50,550 l.; therefore, the sum of 150,000 l., or near it, might be applied to the purposes shadowed forth by the right hon. Baronet. He trusted that some hon. Member with more experience than himself would favour the House with his opinion of the practicability of such an amalgamation, for if a saving to that extent could indeed be effected, it might be attended with the most important advantages to India, and he had sanguine hopes the matter would be investigated by the right hon. Baronet himself, as he (Sir E. Perry) had seen enough of the Government of India to know that their chief desire was to deal out justice to the Natives of that country, and in their supervision to correct what was wrong. He sympathised with the hon. Baronet the Member for Honiton (Sir J. Hogg), in the assertion, that an attempt to do justice had characterised the rule of the East India Company. With the mass of business that fell to a Member of Parliament, it was impossible to waste a day in conferring with a clerk at the India House on points upon which information was desired, and which the Board of Control did not contain. The governing mind upon various small points of Indian administration could only be found among the superior class of examiners of correspondence at the East India House. Great benefit would result from getting all the Government authorities of India into one building, situate in the immediate vicinity of the other Government offices. He should not have gone so fully into the subject in so thin a House, except that the opportunity of speaking upon Indian subjects arose so seldom that one, who like himself strongly felt the responsibility cast upon this country by Providence in regard to India, would not do his duty if he did not seize any occa-

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sion of this kind that might present itself. Any one who had studied Indian history must see that the temper of the times had greatly changed, and that the views of the public had been much enlarged since the discussions of this subject commenced; fifty or 100 years ago the question was how much money could be got out of India, and not how much the Government could benefit 150,000,000 of our fellow-subjects. But the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Control, and others, were becoming sensible of the holiness of our mission. Parliament was "rising to the height of this great argument." He was sure that the most enlightened minds were desirous that our government in India should assume the most liberal form of policy that was compatible with the despotism that must always exist in an Asiatic country. This policy was as sound as it was unselfish, and he was sure it was only by the adoption of this large and generous policy that Parliament could preserve the connection that now existed for the benefit of both countries, and which, if every act were conceived in the same spirit, would, he trusted, continue for countless generations.
MR. KINNAIRDsaid, that after the House had been sitting for ten hours, and after a speech from the President of the Board of Control which had occupied two hours and a half in its delivery, it would ill become him to trespass at any length upon the House. He wished, however, that the right hon. Baronet would take into consideration the propriety of sending out instructions, that the accounts should not be made up to April, but that they should be closed in December. The accounts would then reach this country in June, and the right hon. Baronet would not have to make his next speech to a House, the number of whose Members varied from eleven to thirteen, as had been the case tonight. He greatly regretted that this very important statement had been put off until the very close of the Session. He trusted that the public works for the benefit of the people would be continued, and he would suggest to the right hon. Baronet that the Governors of the four presidencies of Madras, Bombay, Bengal, and Agra, and the officer at the head of the administration of the principalities of Scinde, Pegu, and the Punjab, should be instructed, at the close of each year, following the example of the Earl of Elgin in the case of Canada, to draw up a Report of the progress which had been
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made in the departments of civil and criminal justice, the state of the finances, and the condition of commerce, the improvement in police, in roads, bridges, and internal communication, and also the progress that had been made in the education of the people, so as to give a distinct view of the position and prospects of the respective provinces. If such Reports were laid upon the table annually at the time of the Indian Budget, they would be of incalculable good. They would create a wholesome and a generous emulation among the Governors, and infuse a spirit of greater zeal into their operations. The annual account would enable Parliament, the press, and the public to compare the success of the measures of one period with another, and test the real progress of India. He believed that the government of India by this country had tended upon the whole to the benefit of the inhabitants, and he thought Parliament might boldly invite th criticism of the world upon it.
MR. HUMEsaid, that the Reports upon the state of the different provinces of India, which his hon. Friend (Mr. Kinnaird) wished for, were regularly forwarded to the Court of Directors. [Mr. KINNAIRD: But not to Parliament.] That was because the superintending officer of the Government in that House had never done his duty by calling for them. If the hon. Member would look at the Reports by Colonel Sykes, he would find that there were better Reports accessible to him of India than of England. It was not information that was wanted, but publicity. He believed that the Directors of the East India Company had determined to give greater publicity to their proceedings than hitherto, not only here, but in India, where the greatest mystery and secresy had been observed. He was disappointed in the speech of the hon. Member for Devonport (Sir E. Perry), from whom he had expected a statement of what he had seen in India, and what he proposed to do for the people of that country. With regard to the accounts, if they were made up to the 30th of April, as at present, ample time would be afforded for having them correctly laid upon the table; and he thought, therefore, that no alteration was required in the date to which they were made up. He believed that the Government had taken the proper course for ascertaining the requirements of so large and diversified a class as the people of India, and he hoped the interest taken in that people

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would continue to increase in future. He felt the greatest gratification at the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control. He had begun his administration well, and he (Mr. Hume) trusted that from this time forward we might expect to see an annual improvement in the state of our Indian empire. He did not himself wish for many of the alterations in the details of administration which had been referred to by previous speakers. What he desired was, such measures as would improve the condition of the Natives. And an excellent commencement in that direction had been made in the despatch which had just been sent out, directing the establishment of a system of education. That despatch proceeded upon the right principle of leaving the details of the scheme to be settled in India. For it was utterly impossible for any set of men here to point out the precise measures required for each district of a continent so diversified in character as was Hindostan. It was, however, requisite that that House should be kept informed of what was done, in order that it might be able to guard against any neglect. It was much to the credit of the Government that they proposed to give education to all without distinction of sect or creed. He hoped that in the next Session of Parliament the President of the Board of Control would lay on the table of the House the Resolutions which he intended to move some days before he made his speech. The Resolutions might have been a mere matter of form this year, but it would not be so in future. He could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it was impossible to improve the revenue of the Presidency of Madras. On the contrary, he thought that Colonel Cotton had conclusively proved that, by the introduction of improved means of communication, the condition of the people might be much improved, and consequently the revenue materially augmented. Let them consider what our facilities of communication had done for England. Well, he believed that India presented capabilities for equal improvement. Looking to the market which Australia would now afford for Indian produce, he was much mistaken if the large outlay on roads and canals which the Government had authorised would not be attended with a most beneficial effect both upon the credit of the country and of the revenue. In order, however, to attain this end, it was very desirable that more attention should be paid to irrigation than had
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been done for some time past, and that the Natives should be relieved from vexatious imposts like the Moturpha tax, the payment for water, and the tax on the sinking of wells. With regard to the military establishments of India, the right hon. Gentleman had correctly pointed out that the Native troops were numerous, and the British troops few. But he must press upon the Government the necessity of doing justice to the former troops, and to the 5,000 or 6,000 European officers who commanded them. They had at present much cause to complain that very little attention was often paid to their just claims. He must, in the most emphatic manner, express his dissent from the doctrines laid down by Lord Dalhousie with respect to the acquisition of provinces now under the rule of Native princes. We had now a great and important empire in India; we had 150,000,000 of people under our sway; and he (Mr. Hume) wished to see our measures directed to the improvement of the condition of our present subjects—to making them rich and happy—rather than to the acquisition of further territory. And more than that, he desired to see the Native princes of India following our example, and improving the condition of their dominions by the same measures which had been already successful in ours.
MR. DANBY SEYMOURsaid, there were many topics in the speech of the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Control which called for observation, but at that late hour he would only detain the Committee by adverting to one or two of them. He admitted the great improvement which had been made during the last twelve months in the government of India, which in a great measure was due to the influence and exertions of the right hon. Baronet. His minute on education would be received with approbation from one end of the country to the other; but, at the same time, he could not help telling him that, with regard to the salt tax and the supply of salt to India, he took an exceedingly erroneous view, and must have been greatly misinformed upon this branch of the subject. He differed from the right hon. Gentleman as regarded the state of the people of Bengal, which he had been told by well-informed persons was as bad as Madras. One great fact had come out from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, namely, that there was a deficit of 800,000 l., and, therefore, it would be necessary to press upon the

1475
Government of India the necessity of retrenchment. One of the most obvious ways in which this reduction of expenditure could be effected, would be by making the regular cavalry irregular, which would diminish the cost by one-half. The regular cavalry was quite inefficient; and the only reason why it was kept up was, that the Directors might have the opportunity of giving away the commissions. The patronage of the Directors had been diminished; but it had now to be divided amongst fewer persons, so that each had more than fell to his share before the Charter Act of last year. So bad was the Madras regular cavalry, that out of eight regiments there was only one that had not mutinied or shot its officers. The right hon. Gentleman should press the Directors to adopt the policy of Sir Robert Peel, and to reduce or wholly abolish taxation upon the chief articles of consumption of the great mass of the population.
MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, he fully concurred in the panegyrics which had been pronounced on the speech of the right hon. Gentleman; but he trusted that he would not be led away to prefer rapid to cheap transit. Another point in which he (Mr. J. G. Phillimore) took great interest was the navigation of the Godavery. Were that river made practicable for 500 miles it would do more for India than any other step that could be taken, and it would enable us to grow cotton at a much cheaper cost than could be done by America itself. As to the extension of our territory, he looked upon every annexation with apprehension. Our object ought to be, not to extend, but to improve, our possessions.
MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALDsaid, he must complain that the officers of the Queen's service were by the existing rules placed in a most injurious and degrading position. He could understand why a preference should be given to officers in the Company's service; but this was not a matter of preference, but of absolute monopoly. An officer in the Queen's service might be a most able and distinguished man, but he was shut out from all the honours and emoluments of his profession, as long as there was any Company's officer that by any possibility could be presented to them. The true remedy would be to amalgamate the two services; for he thought that there should be but one service, and that the Queen's.
MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, he thought it was unfortunate that the state-
1476
ment of the right hon. Baronet had not been made at an earlier period of the Session, and also that the Members connected with India were not in attendance in the House on so important an occasion. He thought the misfortunes of the people of India arose from the vice of the land tenures in that country, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would attend to that subject, as vicious tenures of land had been the ruin of the West Indies as well as of Ireland. The condition of the rural population of Poonah, in June, 1854, was of the worst description; they were literally famished, and thousands of them had been living on roots for the preceding four months, all because of the viciousness of the land tenures in that country.
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, he must beg to express the great gratification he felt at the approbation hon. Gentlemen had been pleased to bestow upon his statement. With regard to the observations upon minor points, he was quite aware that many improvements might be made. With regard to the debt, there might be found, at pages 43 and 44 of the Report, a full statement of it, and the interest paid. As to the universal confiscation of the property of Indian Princes, that was not near so universal as had been stated. He wished at the same time to correct a misapprehension under which his hon. Friend (Mr. V. Scully) laboured. Owing to the want of rain there had been last year a failure of the crops, and to that circumstance the destitution was to be attributed, and not to the state of the land tenure. With respect to the observations which had been made in relation to the Godavery, he had to observe that certain works had been recommended and executed for the improvement of the navigation, and that further works were contemplated for the like object, so as to carry the navigation, if possible, into the heart of the country, and render the river navigable as far as possible.
Resolved—
1. "That the total net Revenues of the Bengal Presidency, for the year ended the 30th day of April, 1852, amounted to 7,584,435 l. sterling; and the Charges thereof for the same period, other than Military Charges, amounted to 1,926,362 l. sterling."
Resolved—
2."That the total net Revenues of the North Western Provinces, including the newly acquired Territory, for the year ended the 30th day of April, 1852, amounted to 5,670,715 l. sterling; and the Charges thereof for the same period, other than Military Charges, amounted to 1,402,238 l. sterling."
Resolved—
3. "That the net Revenues of Bengal and the North Western Provinces, together, for the year ended the 30th day of April, 1852, amounted to 13,255,150 l. sterling; and the Charges thereupon, including the Military Charges, amounted to 8,770,830 l. sterling, leaving a surplus available for the general Charges of India of 4,484,320 l.
Resolved—
4. "That the total net Revenues of the Madras Presidency (Fort St. George), for the year ended the 30th day of April, 1852, amounted to 3,704,048 l. sterling; and the net Charges thereof, for the same period, amounted to 3,204,273 l. sterling, leaving a surplus available for the general Charges of India of 499,775 l. sterling."
Resolved—
5. "That the total net Revenues of the Bombay Presidency, for the year ended the 30th day of April, 1852, amounted to 2,868,298 l. sterling; and the net Charges thereof, for the same period, amounted to 2,847,392. sterling, leaving a surplus available for the general Charges of India of 20,906 l. sterling."
Resolved—
6. "That the total net Revenues of the several Presidencies, for the year ended the 30th day of April, 1852, amounted to 19,827,496 l. sterling; and the Charges thereof amounted to 14,822,495 l. sterling, leaving a surplus Revenue of 5,005,001 l. sterling."
Resolved—
7. "That the Interest on the Registered Debt of India paid in the year ended the 30th day of April, 1852, amounted to 1,967,359 l. sterling, and the Charges defrayed in England on account of the Indian Territory in the same period amounted to 2,506,377 l. sterling, leaving a surplus of Indian Income for the year ended as aforesaid, after defraying the above Interest and Charges, of 531,265 l. sterling."
House resumed.

MEDICAL GRADUATES (UNIVERSITY OF LONDON) BILL.
Order for consideration of Lords' Amendments read.
MR. MOWBRAYsaid, he rose to call attention to the circumstance that those Amendments excluded the University of Durham from the operation of the Bill, which had only been originally included in it after a very considerable discussion in that House. Now, he must say, after the question had undergone so complete an investigation—after the proposal had met with the sanction of Her Majesty's Ministers in that House, he was entirely unprepared to find, without any previous notification of such an intention, an Amendment made by a Cabinet Minister in the other House, and supported by another Cabinet Minister, to the effect of excluding the University of Durham from the Bill. Still he was not without hope that the
1478
noble Viscount the Secretary for the Home Department, on a reconsideration of the subject, would see fit to reinsert the name of the University of Durham in the Bill.
Notice taken, that Forty Members were not present; House counted; and Forty Members not being present,
The House was adjourned at half after Twelve o'clock.

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Kerr, after the death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Mayo County Advances.
2a Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges (No. 2); Public Health; Metropolitan Sewers.
Reported—Militia (No. 2); Militia (Scotland); Militia (Ireland); Militia Ballots Suspension; Militia Pay.
3a Merchant Shipping Acts Repeal; Duchy of Cornwall Office; Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges (No. 2); Public Health; Metropolitan Sewers.

EPISCOPAL AND CAPITULAR ESTATES MANAGEMENT (1854) BILL.
Commons Amendments considered (according to Order).
THE BISHOP OF LONDONhoped that their Lordships would not agree with all the Amendments, as he considered some of them injurious in their operation, especially the clause relating to the computation of the duration of lives, which he thought ought not to be made at a uniform rate of interest. The Amendments intended to carry into effect a principle embodied in a Report which their Lordships had rejected on a former occasion. The lessees, he thought, had no ground of complaint; and under the present system no less than 621 estates had been enfranchised in a satisfactory manner. He thought, therefore, they ought not to consent to any alteration in that system, especially as at this period of the Session they could not proceed to a minute discussion of the Amendments.
THE EARL OF CHICHESTERalso opposed the Amendments, on much the same ground as had been stated by the right rev. Prelate—namely, that they sought to introduce into an Act which was intended to facilitate the enfranchisement of church property a compulsory power with respect to arbitration; and anything which had that effect was highly objectionable. He particularly opposed the mode of computation provided in the Clause H—namely, that laid down by the Episcopal and Capitular Revenues Commissioners in their Report of 1850.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he could not deny that there was considerable force in the objections which the right rev. Prelate had stated to the clause relating to the computations on the duration of lives, and he should, therefore, be ready to amend it by the omission of the words "and such computation shall be made throughout at a uniform rate of interest," as suggested by the right rev. Prelate. He must say he did not see any force in the objections taken by the noble Earl (the Earl of Chichester) to the clause rendering arbitration compulsory in cases where proposals for enfranchisement were made to the Commissioners, especially as the noble

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Earl expressly assented to arbitration being made permissive.
Clause amended.
THE EARL OF CHICHESTERmoved to strike out certain words in Clause H, which would have the effect of leaving the clause as follows—
"In computing the due regard to be paid to the just and reasonable claims of the present holders of lands under lease or otherwise, arising from the long-continued practice of renewal, the basis of compensation may, at the discretion and with the approval of the Church Estates Commissioners, be according to the recommendations laid down in the Lords' Report on the same subject in 1851."
On Motion that the clause, as originally worded, stand part of the Bill, their Lordships divided:—Content 16; Not Content 11: Majority 5.
Amendment negatived.
Several Amendments agreed to; other Amendments agreed to, with Amendments; and other Amendments objected to; and (after Debate) agreed to, with Amendments; and Bill, with the Amendments, returned to the Commons.

NATIONAL GALLERY, &c. (DUBLIN) BILL.
Commons Amendments considered (according to Order), and agreed to.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL.
The Commons Amendments to the Amendments made by the Lords, together with the Commons Reason for disagreeing to One of the said Amendments, considered (according to Order).
Moved, not to insist on the Amendment to which the Commons have disagreed; objected to; and (after short Debate), on Question, Whether to insist on the said Amendment? Resolved in the Negative.
The Amendments made by the Commons to the Amendments made by the Lords agreed to; and a Message sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

PUBLIC REVENUE AND CONSOLIDATED FUND CHARGES (No. 2) BILL.
EARL GRANVILLE moved to resolve—
"That inasmuch as the Provisions of the Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges (No. 2) Bill are precisely similar to those of the Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges Bill as the same were amended in Committee in this House, the Report of which Amendments was, on the 29th day of July, ordered to be received that Day Three Months, the peculiar Circumstances under which the said (No. 2) Bill has been sent up to this House from the House of Commons make it reasonable that the same be allowed to be
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read a Second Time this Day, if the House shall think fit so to order."
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, and for Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 to be considered, in order to their being dispensed with on the said Bill, read.
On Question, agreed to.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that the loose manner in which Bills emanating from various departments of the Government were often drawn, led him to ask with whom the official responsibility rested? This might be excusable in private Members, but it certainly was not in the Government, who had the means of procuring the requisite legal assistance. A striking instance of the carelessness of which he complained was afforded by the former Bill on this subject, which, as originally drawn, actually rendered the salaries of the Judges subject to an annual Vote. This appeared to be so monstrous that while the Bill was still in the House of Commons he communicated with his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack upon the subject, and the objectionable provision was in consequence struck out. The Bill, however, even as it came up to their Lordships, was still calculated to do injustice in many quarters, and especially in that part of the country with which he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) was more immediately connected. It was, however, materially improved by the Select Committee to which it was sent.
EARL GRANVILLEthought the noble Marquess had overstated the nature of the inaccuracies in the Bill, which, generally speaking, were merely of a verbal character. The only Amendments which involved a question of policy was, as to whether the Commissioners of Lunacy and the police magistrates should be included in the schedule.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that when the Bill was introduced, the Master of the Rolls and Masters of Chancery in Ireland were actually made subject to an annual Vote; and that could not be considered as a mere verbal inaccuracy or mistake.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, there were eight instances in one of the schedules of the Bill in which provision was authorised to be made for certain charges, "&c.," and the word "ditto" was frequently repeated, without there being any possibility of interpreting the meaning to be attached to the word. Was this at all

1397
desirable, or to be tolerated in a Bill dealing with the appropriation of the public money? In the original Bill the official conduct of the officers of the Irish courts of law was rendered liable to be canvassed annually in a Committee of Supply, and the Government had not given way upon the matter until they found themselves in a minority, when they agreed to adopt the Bill as it now stood. He rejoiced to find that the Committee throughout had taken a different view of the case. But this was far from being all, for it was the intention of the framers of the Bill to include in it the police magistrates of London, and that intention was not carried out only in consequence of an adverse vote. In fact, the Bill had been prepared with such want of consideration and justice, that no reserve whatever was made for the life interest of persons holding office during good behaviour, and it was only by a vote of Parliament that a saving clause was inserted. There were considerable objections to the Bill as it stood; but at that late period of the Session he was not desirous of proposing any Amendment, or of throwing any difficulties in the way of Government; but several alterations might be made which would be of a beneficial character. In some cases the Statutes had been inaccurately referred to. He would merely mention one instance, where a Statute was referred to under the head of "Scotch Clergy," when, instead of referring to the Scotch clergy, it related to the custody of offenders. In fact, he could call attention to several Statutes, showing, if he might use so unparliamentary a term, the "slipslop" manner in which the whole of the Bill had been drawn. A high authority in another place said—
"The Committee of the House of Lords had made a very injudicious charge on very insufficient grounds. They reported that they had not before them sufficient information to enable them to determine whether these pensions, superannuations, and similar charges ought to remain on the Consolidated Fund, or to be voted on the annual Estimates; and then, instead of sending to the Treasury for further information, they struck these items out of the schedule. The House must come back to the subject, and make cleaner work at a future time."
Now, in answer to this statement, he must be allowed to say, that he had applied to the public officers of the Treasury to know whom he was to ask for any documentary evidence which it might he necessary to consult, and he had made an application
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at the Treasury for the very information which was wanting, and which their Lordships were complained of for not asking for. The answer which was given to his application was, that they had no authority to furnish the information he required, but they would apply for authority to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The next day the Chancellor of the Exchequer was applied to, and he declined to furnish the information. He (Lord Monteagle) certainly felt himself called on to complain, that after the information had been asked for and refused by the head of the Treasury Board himself, the absence of that information, and the supposed neglect of the Committee, should be made a ground of complaint against them. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said in another place—
"In the case of charges involving any great political question, or appearing to involve a question of good faith and of public contract, in which vested interests, which might fairly be so called, were concerned, he had left on the Consolidated Fund whatever he had found upon it."
As bearing upon this point, he (Lord Monteagle) might mention the case of Mr. Augustus Stapleton. Mr. Stapleton was private secretary to the late Mr. Canning; and on the death of Mr. Canning, George IV. applied by letter to Lord Ripon, the head of the succeeding Government, to make some provision for Mr. Stapleton, on the ground of the affection which His Majesty had entertained towards Mr. Canning. Mr. Stapleton was in consequence appointed to the office of Commissioner of Customs, at a salary of 1,400 l. a year, and he held, in addition, two small offices in the West Indies, which increased his emoluments to 1,900 l. a year. When Earl Grey's Government came into office a large reduction was made in the expenditure of the Revenue Board; and upon an application being made to Mr. Stapleton, he agreed to resign the three offices which he then held, in consideration of a retiring allowance of 900 l. a year. This sum was granted by the Government of the late Earl Grey, and, in consequence of the arrangement, a sum of 21,000 l. had been saved to the country, and Mr. Stapleton, under peculiar circumstances, had been in the receipt of 900 l. a year. The peculiar circumstances were, that Mr. Stapleton had himself sought to be relieved from the position of being a mere incumbrance upon the public, and had applied to successive

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Governments to give him employment in consideration of his retiring allowance. Now, he was quite satisfied that there was not one of their Lordships who would hesitate to express an opinion that the engagement with Mr. Stapleton was one which ought not to be broken. It was certainly a case which came within the speech of Mr. Gladstone, and was a case of good faith and contract, by which the public had effected a saving of 21,000 l. in the interval between entering into the contract and the time at which it was proposed to throw Mr. Stapleton's allowance upon the Committee of Supply. It might be said that reliance should be placed upon the justice of the House of Commons; but he was not disposed to trust more to the House of Commons than to any other fallible persons; and not only must a reliance be placed upon the justice of the House of Commons, but they would have to depend upon the discretion or indiscretion of the Government of the day. In the course of this very Session, the salary paid to the Bishop of New Zealand had been withdrawn by the Government, though he had not the least doubt that the House of Commons would most willingly have agreed to its continuance. He did not think their Lordships had acted upon an unwise principle when they said that they would have evidence upon the whole matter before they came to a vote upon it; but, on the contrary, he thought they were quite right in the course they had taken, and that they had done good service to the public in the changes which they had introduced into the Bill. He would here take the liberty of referring to a report which was being circulated, to the effect that there was an intention to transfer to a Select Committee of the House of Commons the financial business of the country. If it were really true that such an intention existed, he thought it would be a greater change in the constitution and free institutions of England than had ever yet been propounded. At present the House of Commons, in its collective capacity as the Commons of England, had the power of considering its Estimates and of voting its money, and the moment it brought itself to transfer to a Select Committee functions of that description, its constitutional rights—its power over the public purse—would be lost, its proceedings would be conducted without deliberation and responsibility, and the financial business of the
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country would be conducted upon a similar plan to the bureau scheme of foreign countries, instead of by an open system of examination and deliberation.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that as there were several Members of the Select Committee present he would leave them to say whether he had given an accurate description of the Bill, or whether it was such a monstrosity as had been described to them. With regard to one example which the noble Lord had given for the purpose or showing that it was an imperfect measure, it regarded a matter of Scotch law. Now, he (Earl Granville) must say that, although he might be willing to take the noble Lord as an authority on a question of Irish law, he was certainly disinclined to accept it upon matters affecting the Scotch law. His noble Friend said that the most unfounded accusation had been brought against the Select Committee of their Lordships' House, because, so far from their having been able to obtain information to enable them to judge of the justice or injustice of particular items, his noble Friend himself applied to the Treasury for information, and was refused it. His noble Friend, with his usual courtesy, had given him (Earl Granville) notice of his intention to bring forward this subject; and he had, therefore, been enabled to ascertain the facts of the case. It appeared that his noble Friend had had some communication with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that the latter, in answer to a question put to him, stated to his noble Friend that the persons most competent to give information on the subject of this Bill were two gentlemen of the names of Anderson and Shelley, engaged in the Treasury. He found that his noble Friend then wrote to Mr. Shelley, and requested both him and Mr. Anderson to call on him and bring the papers relating to the Bill. [Lord MONTEAGLE explained that he did not ask them to bring papers with them.] At all events, his noble Friend asked them for information respecting the Bill, and his noble Friend began his letter by saying that he had been authorised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do so. The answer of Mr. Shelley was, that he and Mr. Anderson would be most happy to call on the noble Lord, but requested that he would be good enough to specify what papers he desired. His noble Friend then replied, that it was a matter of no consequence, that he had only written the note to save time, that the Committee would

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meet the same afternoon, and would determine what papers it would call for. However, next day his noble Friend called on these gentlemen, and asked somewhat vaguely for information, and, thinking that he had the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for doing so, they afforded him certain information. It was true that when his noble Friend asked them to give him the Estimates, which had not then been laid before the House of Commons, they told him that to furnish them was beyond their discretion, and that they must refer to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject; and when the matter was mentioned to that right hon. Gentleman, he directed them not to give the Estimates to any one single Member of Parliament. In a conversation he (Earl Granville) had had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the latter assured him that when the noble Lord asked him as to the proper source of information, he had no notion that the noble Lord intended to go and ask for this particular information, he being hostile to the Bill and to the Government proposals; at the same time it never entered the head of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to withhold any information from a Committee of their Lordships' House. Whilst the Government were, of course, bound to give information to both Houses of Parliament, and to any Select Committee, he did not think they were bound to allow their subordinates to give official information privately to any Member who might wish to select weak points for attack, and entirely pass over the strong points of the ease, and thus to place himself in a position infinitely superior to that of the person who had to defend the Bill, and who was left uninformed as to the exact course which such an adverse Member meant to take. Now, they must all admire the zeal which his noble Friend displayed in any cause which he undertook, and knew that no one was more accurately acquainted than his noble Friend with the particulars contained in Parliamentary documents; but they knew at the same time nobody was so skilful in extracting information for the purpose he had in hand both from friend and foe. He meant no offence to his noble Friend by making this remark; but he could not help mentioning the circumstance that when he (Earl Granville) was at the Board of Trade, and when on one occasion his noble Friend meant to attack that department, with regard to some particular question, he found his noble Friend closeted
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with the secretary of the Board one hour before the debate was to come on. It was obvious that by seeking information in this manner the noble Lord placed the Minister who had to oppose him in a very unfair and unequal position. He had also heard it commonly stated that a certain witness, who was likely to be subjected to cross-examination in a Select Committee by his noble Friend, boasted of his presence of mind in having declined an invitation to breakfast he had received from his noble Friend for the morning of the day on which he was to give evidence; and the party invited said that he would be most happy to breakfast with his noble Friend on any day subsequent to his examination. His noble Friend had that night made reference to a rumour which he said had reached him regarding the intentions of the Government and of the other House. He (Earl Granville) had heard of other idle rumours, with which, however, he would not trouble their Lordships. One, concerning the relations of the Government and the Bank of England, was a case in point, and had been most completely refuted when the proper time came for it. He did not happen to have heard this rumour to which his noble Friend now alluded; but he would only say, when mere rumours, without any substance in them, were brought forward for the purpose of an attack, that he must in future decline either to defend or to deny them until some more tangible and definite ground was laid before the House.
LORD MONTEAGLEreplied. He said that it was true he went to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for information relating to the subject of the Committee's inquiry; but he was not aware that he had taken a course in any way unusual. During the time he had held office there had always been an officer at the Treasury to meet inquiries made there, and to whom every Member of Parliament made application as to whether such and such a paper could be granted or not; and it was a ground of constant complaint on the part of the Government that Motions were made for papers without previous inquiries being made as to whether they could be produced.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he could not allow the discussion to close without entering his protest against the fairness of the account of the transactions in the Select Committee given by both the noble Lord who spoke last and the noble Mar-

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guess (the Marquess of Clanricarde). The question having been referred to a Select Committee, the Government were defeated in the Committee, and various alterations and amendments were made in the Bill. But these various amendments were made solely upon grounds of policy, and not, as noble Lords had said, because blunders had been discovered in the drawing and printing of the Bill, or because the Government had sought in any case to violate the principle of the measure.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that as it had been intimated that something very sweeping was to be done hereafter, he must express a hope that the Government would proceed with the greatest caution and deliberation, for he was inclined to think that, so far as they had gone, there had been, per incuriam, some departure from the principle of this Bill, as originally laid down. With all the respect that he entertained for the privileges of the other House, he thought there were functions which it could not constitutionally exercise, and the assumption of which by that House must lead to very mischievous consequences. The House of Commons was a legislative and inquisitorial, but not an executive body, and it could not undertake executive functions with advantage to the country. He understood that the foremost man in that House, whom they all regarded with respect and admiration, had expressed great alarm at any increase of its functions. He did not think that the House of Commons was at all fitted to determine every year what the salary of every functionary should be, nor was it expedient, after both Houses had with due deliberation fixed the salary of a particular office, that that salary should be transferred from the Consolidated Fund to the annual Votes, and that the House of Commons should every year be called on to decide what should be the amount of that salary, and whether the officer had that year done his duty properly. The House of Commons had not time to perform the duties imposed upon it by the constitution, and it would be far better that the salaries should be paid by the Treasury than by the House of Commons.
On Question, agreed to.
Bill read 2a accordingly.
Committee negatived.
Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 considered (according to Order), and dispensed with on the said Bill.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
EARL GRANVILLE moved to resolve—
"That as the Public Health Bill constitutes a new Board of Health, inasmuch as Cholera exists in many parts of the Kingdom, and various sanitary Regulations which can only be carried out effectually by the said Board imperatively are required, the Circumstances which render Legislation on the Matter of the said Bill expedient are of such Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the said Bill necessary; and it is therefore reasonable that the same be allowed to be read a Second Time this Day, if the House should think fit so to order."
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that the law under which the Board of Health was constituted would expire at the end of the present Session of Parliament; and that the necessity for the present measure was rendered the more urgent by the increase which had taken place in the mortality arising from cholera. The noble Earl stated that the deaths from these causes in the metropolis were, for the week ending July 15—Cholera, 5; Diarrhœa, 46; Total, 51: for the week ending July 22—Cholera, 26; Diarrhœa, 58; Total, 84: for the week ending July 29—Cholera, 133; Diarrhea, 84; Total, 217: and for the week ending August 5—Cholera, 399; Diarrhœa, 148; Total, 547.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading; and for Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 to be considered, in order to their being dispensed with on the said Bill, and the Lords Summoned, read.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
On Question, agreed to.
Bill read 2a accordingly.
Committee negatived.
Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 considered (according to Order) and dispensed with on the said Bill.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

METROPOLITAN SEWERS BILL.
Moved to resolve—
"That as the Metropolitan Sewers Bill is necessary for the Continuance of the Powers of the Metropolitan Sewers Commission, and for increasing the Facilities for constructing Sewers, and as such Powers and Facilities are of essential Importance to the Public Health, especially in reference to the Existence of the Cholera in Parts of the Metropolis, the Circumstances of this Bill present such a Case of Urgency as to render necessary the immediate Consideration of the said Bill; and that accordingly the said Bill be allowed to be read a Second Time this Day, if the House shall think fit so order."
On Question, agreed to.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading; and for Standing Orders Nos. 37 and

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38 to be considered, in order to their being dispensed with on the said Bill, and the Lords Summoned, read.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
(After short debate) on Question, agreed to.
Bill read 2a accordingly.
Committee negatived.
Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 dispensed with.
Bill read 3a.
Amendments made; Amendments moved; objected to; and, on Question, negatived; and Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

PUBLIC OFFICES.
LORD REDESDALE moved for a Return of all Houses, Buildings, &c., hired for official Purposes, including Crown Property, showing the Situation of each, the Term for which it is held, the Amount of Rent and Taxes with which it is chargeable, and the Purposes to which it is applied. His object was to call the attention of the Government, and also of the country, to the condition generally of the public offices, which, as they at present existed, were most inconvenient. There was but one locality in which they could be brought together with advantage to the public business and the appearance of the metropolis, as well as with a view to economy—of course, he meant by the erection of large buildings in the neighbourhood of Whitehall and Downing Street, which were conveniently situated with reference to the Houses of Parliament. The site to which he wished particularly to direct attention was the space extending from the back of Downing Street to the back of Great George Street, and which ran parallel with Parliament Street. That spot was covered with poor and very old buildings, much out of repair, most of which must shortly be pulled down; and if they were rebuilt, the new buildings would, of course, greatly add to the value of the property, and therefore the present opportunity ought not to be lost in obtaining a plot of land so well adapted for the purposes of public offices before the value of the land increased. By the plan which he would suggest, Parliament Street might be made much wider by taking into it the space on which King Street now stood, and thus making a better and more convenient approach to the Houses of Parliament than now existed. He would suggest to the Government the expediency of obtaining this land as soon as possible, especially as it had been the
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subject of consideration for private speculation. He also wished to mention a matter having reference to the Duchy of Cornwall, and which was connected with a Bill which had been passed to enable the officers of the Duchy to obtain an office in lieu of the rooms they had vacated at Somerset house, for the accommodation of the Board of Inland Revenue. He wished to point out the position in which the Duchy of Cornwall was placed with reference to the accommodation of the Prince of Wales, whose residence, Marlborough House, was now occupied as a Picture Gallery and Museum of Practical Art. That residence would, probably, be soon wanted by the Prince of Wales; and as it was probable it would suffer some dilapidations from its present uses, rendering it unfit for a residence, and as Burlington House had been recently purchased for the purpose of being converted into public offices, he would suggest whether it would not be desirable to exchange that building for Marlborough House, and assign it as a residence for the Prince of Wales; while accommodation could also be found for the offices of the Duchy of Cornwall in the buildings in the court-yard of Burlington House. The residence of the Prince of Wales would then belong to the Duchy of Cornwall, and he thought that would be a better arrangement both for the Prince and the public. He hoped after the notice which he had taken of the matter, that Government would be able to consider it before Parliament met again, and if that should be so he would not have taken up their Lordships' time unprofitably.
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, there could be no objection to granting the return moved for by the noble Lord. Indeed, so far from there being any objection to it, he was glad that it had been moved for, inasmuch as it would contain most useful information, to which the attention of Parliament might be advantageously directed. He did not, however, think it would be advisable to enter into any discussion upon his noble Friend's suggestions with respect to the appropriation of Burlington House; nor should he enter at any length into the propriety of the very extensive purchase which his noble Friend had recommended between Downing Street and Great George Street. At the same time, he entirely agreed that it was of vast importance that all the principal offices of Government should be concentrated, for the more they could be brought into a posi-

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tion convenient to each other, the more conveniently and economically would the public business be discharged. Of this he was convinced, that the returns now moved for would establish beyond all question the exceedingly great inconvenience of the mode under which the public offices were at this moment conducted. While he agreed with his noble Friend in the abstract, it was also a question to be considered on economical grounds. He was not, he believed, far wrong when he stated that, independently of the offices held by the Crown in fee simple, there was now being paid annual rents for something more than fifty-six different offices. Of these fifty-six only seven, he believed, were held of the Crown, and consequently rent was paid for the whole of the remainder to private individuals. He believed that 20,000 l. a year was paid for rents by the Office of Woods and Forests alone. But there was not only an enormous sum paid for rents; a most extravagant system was adopted in consequence of the dispersed and inconvenient character of the buildings rented. These buildings had most of them been private houses, and therefore they were only suited for private families, and as a matter of course almost one-half the space was thrown away wastefully. But this was not all. There must be office-keepers and messengers to each. Messengers were kept running about, and undoubtedly, besides the rent, a considerable sum was annually expended in this way. And for what? Why, that the public business might be inconvenienced, and carried on with much less satisfaction to those who had the conduct of it, and with much less advantage to the public, than if a considerable sum were at once expended in the erection of new buildings, the interest on the capital of which he believed would be less than the amount annually paid for rent. To afford their Lordships some idea of the inconvenience sustained under the present state of things, he would mention that, apart from the central office held by the Board of Trade which the President occupied, there were ten or eleven other offices elsewhere, in which the business of departments of the Board was carried on. It must be obvious that, under such circumstances, the President of the Board of Trade could not exercise control, or conduct business in a manner which the public had a right to require. The same observation applied to the War Department. He did not speak only of the
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great offices of the Horse Guards and the Ordnance, but of a number of small offices, such as the recruiting office, the medical inspector's office, the medical examination of recruits office, and others, all of which, being held in different buildings, were practically beyond that supervision and control by the Secretary at War, which the head of every department ought to have the means of exercising. The question, therefore, was not merely one of pounds, shillings, and pence, it was one of economy and efficiency; and for these reasons he believed it would be for the advantage of the public service that a considerable expenditure should be incurred for this purpose. The attention of the Government had been directed to the subject, but under existing circumstances he could give no pledge upon it. We were at this moment engaged in very expensive operations, and it must be matter for consideration how far it would be right or desirable to choose such a time for calling upon Parliament for such an expenditure. At the same time the expenditure would be right in itself, and he felt confident that the country would support any Government in proposing a Vote for this important object at the very earliest moment at which it could be proposed consistently with the other requisitions upon the people.
LORD REDESDALEthought it desirable that there should be no delay. It was important the Government should come to some determination by next Session, for the land with old buildings might be procured cheaper now than at a future time, when new ones might perhaps have been erected; and if Government determined to become possessed of the property, they might name a certain time within which they should be at liberty to conclude the purchase, so as not to render any immediate expenditure necessary. He did not think it reasonable to keep such a matter hanging over the heads of the holders of the property for a lengthened period, but he suggested that five years might not be thought too long a time; and even if Government should pay the price at once, they need not pull down the houses, but might let them, and the rents would be more than sufficient to pay the interest of the money expended.
On Question, agreed to.
House adjourned till To-morrow.