Sitting of 16 February 1853

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Valuation Act Amendment (Ireland); Elections; Cruelty to Animals.
2° Parish Constables; Designs Act Extension; Grand Jury Cess (Ireland); Valuation Act Amendment (Ireland).
Reported.—Valuation Act Amendment (Ireland).
3° County Elections Polls; Transfer of Aids; Valuation Act Amendment (Ireland).

COUNTY ELECTIONS POLLS BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Third Time."
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, he had not the honour of being a county Member, but he felt strongly for those persons whom this Bill must affect. He considered the measure to be a democratic, radical, and dangerous one, that would disfranchise a number of persons, and interfere to prevent those who had property in various counties from exercising their right of voting. He had no hope, however, of its being rejected by that House; but he would rely on another place, where due consideration was given to the liberty—the right, not the radical liberty—of the subject, where he hoped that there would be a proper sense of what was due to the aristocracy of the country, and that this Bill would consequently be thrown out. He had himself given proof of his regard for all classes, but he had no hesitation in saying that if this measure were passed it would endanger the Church and the aristocracy of the country, and even the Throne itself, which they all wished to preserve. He begged to move that this Bill be read a third time that day six months.
MR. SPOONERseconded the Amendment.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
MR. DEEDESsaid, that as the House had already expressed itself decidedly in favour of the Bill, he could not think it advisable that his hon. and gallant Friend should take a division upon that occasion. He had to add, however, that he himself still continued to disapprove of the measure; and he would put it to the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord R. Grosvenor) whether it was not desirable that he should postpone its further progress. The noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs had stated the other day that he felt most anxious that some step should be taken for preventing the recurrence of those scenes of bribery and corruption which had recently disgraced so many of the returns to that House; and in that anxiety he (Mr. Deedes) entirely participated. He believed that the attention of those who would in a future Session have to bring the great subject of parliamentary reform before the House, should be earnestly directed to the best means of putting an end to that great evil. It appeared to him that an important step might be taken towards the accomplishment of that object by altering the manner in which votes were taken at county elections. One of the alleged causes of bribery at those elections was, that the candidates considered it necessary to provide refreshments and modes of conveyance for electors who came to the polling places from considerable distances. Now, that source of corruption could be removed by bringing polling places close to every man's doors. He believed that that point should form part of any measure of reform which the Government might hereafter introduce, and until that great question could be submitted to Parliament in all its details, he would submit to the noble Lord whether it was not unadvisable that they should proceed with it piecemeal, as they would be doing by adopting the measure now under the consideration of the House.
LORD ROBERT GROSVENORsaid, he regretted that he could not accede to the proposition of his hon. Friend. Although he had not the least doubt that the Government would bring in a Bill for Parliamentary reform, still this small measure, as it had been termed, having received the approbation of the majority of that House, he did not feel justified in withdrawing it.

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He should hardly be doing justice to those whose interests were placed in his hands if he were to do so.
MR. SPOONERsaid, if his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lincoln divided the House, he should certainly divide with him, because he believed that the Bill would not effect the object which the noble Lord sought to accomplish. So far from its causing a saving of expense, his experience, confirmed by all the inquiries he had been able to make, led him to believe that the expense would be considerably increased. Many more polling-places must be provided. The hon. Member for East Kent (Mr. Deedes) had stated that one reason for not now legislating on the subject was, that the Government would early next Session, in all probability, bring in a Bill to prevent bribery and corruption. Now, there was another object equally deserving the attention of the Government—namely, the prevention of intimidation. By enacting that the election should take place in one day, and that the poll should be kept open till 5 o'clock, great facilities would be afforded for using intimidation towards the voters. In the summer time such an arrangement might work very well, but in the short days of winter great opportunities would be given for riots and disturbance.
MR. HADFIELDsaid, he was surprised to hear the objections which had been urged by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) as to the practicability of polling all the votes of a county election in one day. In the West Biding of Yorkshire there were 37,000 voters, and in South Lancashire there were 20,000 voters; he had made inquiries in all directions, and it was the universal opinion that the elections for those places could be completed in one day with the utmost possible facility, and that it would be the means of saving expense and loss of time to a vast extent.
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 129; Noes 28: Majority 101.

List of the AYES.

A'Court, C. H. W.

Beaumont, W. B.

Alcock, T.

Bell, J.

Anderson, Sir J.

Berkeley, C. L. G.

Armstrong, R. B.

Blackett, J. F. B.

Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T.

Booker, T. W.

Barnes, T.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Barrow, W. H.

Boyle, hon. Col.

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Brotherton, J.

Kirk, W.

Brown, W.

Langton, H. G.

Burke, Sir T. J.

Layard, A. H.

Butler, C. S.

Legh, G. C.

Byng, hon. G. H. C.

Lewis, rt. hon. Sir T. F.

Carter, S.

Liddell, H. G.

Chamhers, T.

Loveden, P.

Charteris, hon. F.

Lowe, R.

Cheetham, J.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Child, S.

MacGregor, J.

Clay, J.

Massey, W. N.

Clay, Sir W.

Meagher, T.

Clifford, H. M.

Miall, E.

Cobden, R.

Miles, W.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Milligan, R.

Craufurd, E. H. J.

Mills, T.

Crook, J.

Morris, D.

Crossley, F.

Mure, Col.

Cubitt, Ald.

Oliveira, B.

Currie, R.

Osborne, R.

Diyett, E.

Otway, A. J.

Drummond, H.

Pollard-Urquhart, W.

Duke, Sir J.

Price, W. P.

Duncan, G.

Robartes, T. J. A.

Duncombe, T.

Russell, F. W.

Eccles, W.

Sawle, C. B. G.

Ewart, W.

Scholefield, W.

Fagan, W.

Scobell, Capt.

Fergus, J.

Seymour, Lord

Ferguson, Sir R.

Seymour, H. D.

Ferguson, J.

Seymour, W. D.

Fitzgerald, J. D.

Shee, W.

Fitzgerald, Sir J. F.

Shelley, Sir J. V.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Smith, J. B.

Forster, C.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.

French, F.

Sotheron, T. H. S.

Geach, C.

Stanley, Lord

Goderich, Visct.

Stanley, hon. W. O.

Goold, W.

Stapleton, J.

Greene, J.

Strutt, rt. hon. E.

Gregson, S.

Swift, R.

Greville, Col. F.

Thicknesse, R. A.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Thornely, T.

Hadfield, G.

Tufnell, rt. hon. H.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Vernon, G. E. H.

Headlam, T. E.

Warner, E.

Heathcote, Sir G. J.

Wells, W.

Heathcote, G. H.

Whitbread, S.

Henchy, D. O.

Wilkinson, W. A.

Hervey, Lord A.

Williams, W.

Heywood, J.

Wilson, M.

Hindley, C.

Wise, J. A.

Hutt, W.

Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.

Ingham, R.

Wrightson, W. B.

Jermyn, Earl

Wyvill, M.

Kennedy, T.

Young, rt. hon. Sir J.

Kershaw, J.

TELLERS.

King, hon. P. J. L.

Grosvenor, Lord R.

Kinnaird, hon. A. F.

Elliot, J. E.

List of the NOES.

Arbuthnott, hon. Gen.

Knatchbull, W. F.

Arkwright, G.

Lovaine, Lord

Butt, G. M.

Maddock, Sir T. H.

Clinton, Lord C. P.

Miller, T. J.

Deedes, W.

Mills, A.

Forester, rt. hon. Col.

Mundy, W.

Fraser, Sir W. A.

Palmer, R.

Graham, Lord M. W.

Parker, R. T.

Gwyn, H.

Repton, G. W. J.

Hawkins, W. W.

Smijth, Sir W.

Hotham, Lord

Smith, W. M.

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Stanhope, J. B.

Willoughby, Sir H.

Trollope, rt. hon. Sir J.

Tyler, Sir G.

TELLERS.

Vansittart, G. H.

Sibthorp, Col.

Waddington, H. S.

Spooner, R.

Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read 3°.
CAPTAIN SCOBELL CAPTAIN SCOBELL moved to add the Clause of which he had given notice. He said, there were numerous instances where much injury had accrued to persons in consequence of the polling taking place at public-houses.
Clause—"No Poll shall be taken in any licensed public-house or beerhouse, nor on the premises thereof, or in any room or booth connected therewith"—Brought up, and read 1°.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be now read a Second Time."
LORD ROBERT GROSVENORsaid, he did not like to offer any opposition to the clause; at the same time he had some hesitation about it, because of the words "nor upon the premises thereof." At the last election for Middlesex a great hall was used as a polling place, and which hall was connected with a large hotel, and if he adopted this clause he would be prohibiting the use of that hall for election purposes. As another Bill was about to be brought in by the hon. and learned Member for Weymouth (Mr. G. M. Butt) on this subject, he would suggest to the hon. and gallant Gentleman to attach his clause to that Bill.
CAPTAIN SCOBELLsaid, he must decline acceding to the suggestion of the noble Lord.
MR. G. BUTTsaid, that for himself he had no objection to the principle of the clause, but he did not understand what interpretation was to be put upon the words, "nor upon the premises thereof." It would be most convenient, on bringing up a clause to any Bill, that it should be expressed in such clear and definite words as to admit of their afterwards arriving at a satisfactory opinion upon it. Looking at the words he had quoted, they did not appear to him to carry the clause further than what the previous words expressed—namely,"any licensed public-house or beerhouse," and the addition of those words to the clause would only have the effect of introducing ambiguity, and of rendering it exceedingly difficult to construe the clause. He would therefore submit to the hon. and gallant Member that he should at least re-
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consider the clause, and probably he would see reason to strike out those words.
MR. ROBERT PALMERsaid, he concurred in the opinion just expressed by the hon. and learned Member for Weymouth. It did happen that in the county of Berks the town-hall at Maidenhead, which was used for election purposes, had a public-house beneath it; it would be impossible, if this clause was agreed to, to use that hall for any such purpose in future if the words "nor upon the premises thereof" were adopted. He thought it desirable that those words at least should be left out of the clause.
MR. HEADLAMsaid, he did not object to the principle contained in the clause, but thought it doubtful whether it was desirable that a Bill, having a perfectly different object, should have such a clause inserted in it.
MR. FREWENthought the clause did not strictly come within the title of the Bill.
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that unless the clause was drawn with great care, it would raise endless questions as to the legality of elections. He would recommend to the hon. and gallant Member to withdraw his proposition for the present.
CAPTAIN SCOBELL: I withdraw the clause, with the view of introducing it into the forthcoming Bill of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. G. Butt).
Motion, by leave, withdrawn:—Clause withdrawn
LORD ROBERT GROSVENORthen proposed an alteration in the Bill, with the view of providing that the declaration of the result of the poll should be made on the day after the polling, instead of on the day but one after, as at present.
Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 15, to leave out the words "day next but one," in order to insert the words "following day," instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, he must object to the noble Lord's patchwork.
MR. NEWDEGATEthought the interval of a quiet day between the close of the poll and the declaration had a salutary effect in allowing party spirit, which often ran high at elections, to subside. Besides, it would be impossible, in the case of many counties, for the returns from the different polling places to be all brought from a distance to a common centre, and there to be

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satisfactorily scrutinised before the result was declared, unless an interval of one day was given for that purpose.
LORD ROBERT GROSVENORsaid, he would withdraw the proposition.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Bill passed.

PARISH CONSTABLES BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Second Time."
MR. DEEDES, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, and in explaining the object and the provisions of the measure, said, that in the year 1839 an Act was passed called the Rural Police Act, which was afterwards amended in 1840. It was a permissive Act, enabling counties having an insufficiency of police to place the whole or part of their territory under its provisions; and the number of counties in England and Wales which were now under the operation of this Act was twenty-three. There were exactly another twenty-three counties which had not yet adopted its provisions, and six counties in which they had been only partially introduced. These figures showed a sufficiently large interest concerned to justify him in attempting by the present Bill to supply the deficiencies which existed. He had been told that his measure was perhaps hostile to the intentions of the Rural Police Act; but he had no desire to give it that effect. His Bill was not designed to affect any of the counties which had adopted the provisions of the Rural Police Act; and it provided that any county which should hereafter partially or wholly adopt the provisions of that Act, should be exempted from the operation of his present measure. In 1842, two years after the Rural Police Act had been passed, there was introduced into this House, by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham), a measure, which might be said to have passed sub silentio. At that time, and when introducing that Bill, the right hon. Baronet declared he had no intention whatever of interfering with the Rural Police Act; and he (Mr. Deedes) could say the same on the present occasion. It had also been objected that this Bill would prevent other counties from hereafter coming under the Rural Police Act; but he thought it would have a contrary effect, because some counties, either on the ground of expense, or on account of the conditions of
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the population in their petty sessional divisions, had not chosen to place themselves under the Rural Police Act; but if they adopted this Bill of his, it would be a stepping-stone to the introduction of the provisions of the Rural Police Act into such counties. For under this Bill, general superintendents would be appointed over the constables as paid servants of the county, who would act in a manner analogous to the senior officers of the rural police; and thus if counties could not obtain the whole of the benefits of the Rural Police Act, they would get a part. The county of Chester, which was under a local Act, and the county of Middlesex, which was within the metropolitan police district, would both be exempted from the operation of this Bill. He wished to consolidate and amend the three existing Acts on this subject—one of which was passed in 1842, the second a year or two later, and the third in 1850; but the points of novelty to which he wished to call the attention of the House were the following: By the existing law each of the superintending constables for every petty sessional division could be appointed at the option of the county magistrates in general or quarter sessions, if it were thought necessary to have such an officer, and if they did elect one the petty constables were to be under his control, and thus a species of organisation was established, similar, in some degree, to the organisation created under the Rural Police Act. Now, by this Bill he sought to make the appointment of these superintending constables imperative, being convinced that the parish constable system without such superintendents was of no use whatever. He also intended to give the justices power, in certain cases where the extent of the population or the average of the petty divisions demanded it, to appoint a second superintendent. The next point of novelty was the provision for the appointment of a chief superintending constable, and that appointment he made only permissive, and not compulsory. This clause he had introduced into his measure at the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir G. Grey). The next point of novelty in the Bill related to lock-up houses. He proposed to extend the power under which lock-up houses might be built, so as to give justices facility of contract with separate jurisdictions, or with adjacent counties, for the purpose of placing prisoners under temporary confinement, without such

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justices going to the expense of building lock-up houses for themselves. He also proposed to charge the county rates with the expenditure for staves and handcuffs for the parish constables. He likewise proposed to permit the justices to give superanuation allowances to chief-superintending constables in cases of sickness or infirmity, under certain limitations. He also had in view to increase the facilities with which the lists of constables were annually made up, in order to cure an anomaly in the existing law. The next material change was in the liability of persons to serve as parish constables. At present the age of liability was between twenty-five and fifty-five, with an additional qualification as to rental. He proposed that the age should be from twenty-one to fifty-five, provided the party had the other requisite qualifications. Another clause would also give power to the vestry to name one man, who was to be the head constable of the parish, and with whom the chief superintendent was to be in constant communication. The Bill also contained a list of exemptions, which might be extended, in one or two instances, to Judges of the County Courts, for example, and of the Courts of Bankruptcy. He also proposed to exempt from the operation of the Bill all counties or parts of counties which were now under the Rural Police Act, or might hereafter adopt the provisions of that Act. Under the present licensing Act, for alehouses the precepts were directed to the high constables, and the Bill bad it in view to do away with the necessity of so employing high constables, and to enable the superintending constable, or parish constable, to be charged with the service of the requisite notices. He proposed also to give increased facilities for the summoning of juries, the preparation of jury lists, and the more equitable imposition of the costs of prosecuting vagrants. He had now gone through all the points on which he thought it necessary to trouble the House. He had wished to put before the House as plainly as he could the object he had had in view in bringing forward this Bill, and he would simply say, in conclusion, his aim from beginning to end had been to submit the measure to the greatest possible publicity. With that object he had sent it to parties interested in the subject in almost every direction, for the purpose of inviting observations upon it, and those observations he had acted
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upon wherever he could do so conscientiously; and with the further desire of having the Bill thoroughly examined in all its details, he proposed to refer it to a Select Committee upstairs.
Bill read 2°, and committed to a Select Committee.

ELECTIONS BILL.
MR. G. BUTTsaid, he begged permission to move for leave to bring in a Bill to limit the time between the proclamation and day of election in counties, and between the receipt of the writ and the election in boroughs; to limit the polling at elections for the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge; and otherwise to regulate the proceedings of elections for Members of Parliament in England and Wales. The House was aware that, so far as related to counties, the law stood now as it stood in 1785, for by an Act of 25 Geo. III. provision was made that proclamation should be made by the sheriff in counties within two days after the receipt of the writ, and the day of election was to be not later than sixteen days, nor sooner than ten days, from the day of proclamation of the writ. By the Bill which he asked the leave of the House to introduce, it was proposed that the election should take place not later than ten days, nor sooner than six days, from the day of proclamation. With regard to cities and boroughs, the House was aware that the law was regulated by the provisions of the Statute of 3 & 4 Vict., c. 81, by which it was enacted that the returning officer for cities and boroughs should, within eight days after the receipt of the writ and precept, proceed to the election, giving three clear days' notice thereof. He proposed by this Bill to limit the time to six days, within which the returning officer should proceed to the election, giving two clear days' notice of his intention. There was also another clause in the Bill, which he submitted would be a reasonable one. The time for taking the poll in the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge was not altered by the Reform Act, and therefore there might be fifteen days' polling; but he submitted that five days would be amply sufficient for that purpose, regard being had to the present facilities for travelling to Oxford and Cambridge. There was another provision in the Bill, which he submitted might be adopted with advantage. No additional polling places were appointed by the Reform Act, and it consequently

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became necessary a few 3'ears afterwards to give the Crown, on the petition of the magistrates at quarter-sessions, power to appoint additional polling places; but there was no provision in that Act to substitute other polling places for such as might be found to be inconvenient. He proposed, by one of the clauses of his Bill, to give Her Majesty a similar power to substitute polling places for those already appointed, upon a like petition from the magistrates assembled in quarter-sessions. With regard to elections for counties, he believed that it would not for a moment be disputed that the great expense was incurred after the proclamation, and between that day and the day of election. He took it for granted that the time which might have been necessary before the Reform Bill, could not be necessary now to give the voters fair and ample time to exercise their franchise. By limiting the time they would protect the candidate against unnecessary expenses of election, and they would also diminish the opportunity for that corruption and those unseemly things which they all knew took place at all elections, for counties as well as for boroughs. On this account he moved for leave to bring in his Bill; and in doing so, he would suggest to the Government the importance of consolidating and amending the laws relating to elections, particularly those which related to bribery and treating. He trusted, also, that when consolidated the law would be laid down in plain English, for it was high time that a reform should be made in the language of Acts of Parliament, the meaning of which ought to be intelligible without a glossary.
MR. PHINNseconded the Motion. He did not mean to discuss the question on the present occasion, but he wished that a clause could be engrafted on the proposed Bill, abolishing the present circuitous mode of sending the writ to the returning officer of a borough. It was, in the first instance, sent to the sheriff of the county, and by him transmitted to the borough officer, and this roundabout, process gave rise in some instances to objectionable proceedings, and was made a ground for extorting a fee from the unfortunate candidate. He quite concurred in what had been said by the hon. and learned Gentleman who introduced the measure respecting the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and he hoped that before another election took
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place there would be a change in the mode of voting at University elections. The presumption was, as the fact was in boroughs, that the voters resided in or within a short distance of the borough; but in the Universities the presumption was that the voters did not reside; and he hoped that means might be taken for enabling them to vote in their respective localities. With regard to the consolidation of the various laws regarding elections, he might state that the matter had been brought under the notice of the counsel to the Speaker, and another officer of the House, both of whom would be able to render most valuable aid to the Select Committee which he hoped would be appointed to take the subject into consideration. If there was to be a codification of the law, they ought to begin by codifying this branch of it, because it was administered by persons who were not lawyers, who were obliged at present to receive the statement of the law from counsel. He did not know any reform which was more pressing than this, or one which would do the House more credit if it was adopted.
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, that with respect to the consolidation of the law regarding elections, the House was already aware, from the statement made by the Lord Chancellor, that the whole subject was under the consideration of the Government, and it was hoped that some steps would be taken immediately in consequence. He should offer no objection to the first reading of the Bill; but, without expressing any opinion upon the mode in which the hon. and learned Member proposed to carry out the objects which he had in view, it would be for the hon. and learned Member to consider, whenever the second reading of the Bill came before the House, how far it might be for the convenience of public business and the economy of the public time, to entertain during the present Session a measure of this kind, after his noble Friend (Lord John Russell) had announced the attention of the Government to bring in a Bill for amending the representation of the people in Parliament. In the meanwhile the Government would be glad to see the mode in which the hon. and learned Member proposed to deal with the questions to which his Bill related.
Leave given; Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. George Butt and Mr. Mullings.
The House adjourned at Five o'clock.