Sitting of 10 February 1853

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBERS SWORN.—For London, Right Hon. Lord John Russell; for Morpeth, Right Hon. Sir George Grey, baronet; for Nottingham, Right Hon. Edward Strutt; for Oxford University, Right Hon. William Ewart Gladstone; for Oxford, Right Hon. Edward Cardwell; for Southwark, Right Hon. Sir William Molesworth, baronet; for Dumfriesshire, Viscount Drumlanrig; for Haddingtonshire, Hon. Francis Wemyss Charteris; for Leeds, Right Hon. Matthew Talbot Baines; for Hertford, Hon. William Francis Cowper; for Marlborough, Right Hon. Lord Ernest Bruce; for Carlisle, Right Hon. Sir James Robert George Graham, baronet; for Scarborough, Earl of Mulgrave; for Tiverton, Right Hon. Viscount Palmerston; for Gloucester, Hon. Maurice Frederick Fitzhardinge Berkeley; for Wolverhampton, Right Hon. Charles Pelham Villiers; for Brighton, Lord Alfred Hervey; for Wilts (Southern Division), Right Hon. Sidney Herbert; for Southampton, Sir Alexander James Edmund Cockburn; for Limerick County. William Monsell, esquire; for Aylesbury, Richard Bethell, esquire.
NEW WRIT.—For Forfarshire, v. the Hon. Lauderdale Maule, Surveyor General of the Ordnance.
PUBLIC BILL.—1° Transfer of Aids.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL, having laid on the table a Convention relative to the succession to the Throne of Greece, said: In moving that these papers lie on the table, I think it may be convenient to the House if I state the course which Her Majesty's Government think it fit to pursue with respect to the measures which it is their intention to bring forward in the early part of the Session. In the first place, I beg to say at once that it is not my intention, nor is it at all necessary for me, to make any statement with regard to the general principles and views of Her Majesty's Government. A statement of
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that kind has been already made by my noble Friend at the head of the Government in another place, and that statement is so generally known, as to require no further remark on that subject. Her Majesty's Government intend, as soon as the Estimates for the year can be prepared and laid on the table and placed in the hands of hon. Members, to bring those Estimates under the consideration of the House. We hope to be able on Friday evening to ask the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Navy Estimates; and we intend, as soon as possible afterwards, to proceed with the Estimates for the Army and Ordnance. With regard to the number of men for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance, I beg to state that there will be no increase beyond the number voted before the Christmas holidays. With respect to the sums to be voted, there will be a considerable increase, undoubtedly, upon the Estimates of last year; but when the details are submitted to the House, I believe such explanations will be given relative to that increase as will, I trust, prove satisfactory to the House. At all events, the reasons for that increase will be brought under discussion. Besides the Estimates, we propose to bring forward, in the first place, a Bill to enable the Legislature of Canada to dispose, with due regard to the interests of the present holders, of the clergy reserves of that province. It is the intention of the present Government to carry into effect the statement made on the part of the Crown by my noble Friend Earl Grey, when he was Secretary for the Colonies. The next question to be submitted to the House will be brought forward by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, who, in moving for leave to introduce a Bill on the subject of pilotage, will state the views of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the light-dues and various other matters affecting the shipping interest. I propose on a very early day to ask the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, with a view to the removal of the disabilities now affecting the Jewish subjects of Her Majesty, and of placing them on the same footing as all other classes of Her Majesty's subjects. The next question which I propose to bring before the House—but not until after the Estimates have been voted—is one on the important subject of Education, I will not endeavour to excite

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any false hopes or expectations by saying that I am about to produce on the part of the Government a very large plan upon that subject; but I shall make certain proposals which I think, if they are adopted, will tend very greatly to further and promote the cause of education—a cause which impresses itself more and more upon the minds of all who consider the future destiny of this country, and which, in every respect, whatever opinions we may entertain, and whatever plans we may think best, must be considered one of the very highest importance. In stating the views of the Government upon the subject of the education of the poorer classes generally, I will, either then, or shortly afterwards, explain the course which Her Majesty's Government intend to pursue, and what is the proposition which they think should be made with respect to the Report which has been drawn up by the Commissioners relative to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and into the state, discipline, studies and revenues of those Universities. I am at present unable to state when any educational measure for Scotland will be brought forward, because I have not had an opportunity for some time of conversing with my hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate; but probably in the course of the present Session a Bill on that subject will be introduced by the Government. There is another question, relative to which the right hon. Gentleman the late Secretary for the Colonies (Sir J. Pakington) has given a notice—I mean the important question of Transportation, which has not escaped the attention of Her Majesty's Government—I need not now refer to the great and important changes which have taken place—changes to which I have alluded in former debates—changes both with respect to the constitution and government of our Australian colonies, and also with regard to the recent discoveries of gold in Australia. But I will state at once that the present Government entirely adhere to the intention of the late Government, that transportation to Australia shall cease. It is the intention of Her Majesty's Government—and I think wisely so—to adopt a course which has been rendered necessary by the changes I have just noticed. But it is impossible not to perceive, that in putting an end to the system of transportation to the Australian colonies, it is imperatively necessary to look most seriously to the question of secondary punishment. The
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late Lord Chancellor (Lord St. Leonards) intimated his intention of introducing a Bill into the other House of Parliament for the consolidation of the criminal law. I know not whether the noble and learned Lord intends to persevere with any measure of that description now. I have been deterred for some years from attempting any such consolidation by the conviction that it would be necessary to make some change with respect to transportation. I do not, therefore, consider it would be wise or expedient to consolidate the present law in respect to secondary punishments, merely for two or three years, when the whole subject must necessarily come under consideration at the period when the question of transportation shall be finally disposed of. I know not, I say again, what are the present intentions of Lord St. Leonards on this subject; but Her Majesty's Government will at a future period have a proposal to make with respect to the system of secondary punishments. I may say, therefore, that the Government have already come to the determination to put an end to transportation to the Australian colonies, which determination will be carried into effect by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department. Hereafter—when those vessels which are already about to sail with convicts shall have left this country—it is not intended to send any more vessels with convicts to Van Dicmen's Land, or to any of the Australian colonies. The House will feel that the topic to which I have just adverted, namely, that of transportation, acquires additional importance from the determination which has been arrived at by both Governments on this important subject, because when we propose measures which will deprive the administrators of the criminal law of the power of awarding that punishment which has hitherto proved an important means of deterring from crime, it becomes, if possible, the more necessary that we should implant in their minds motives sufficiently strong to induce them to avoid crime altogether. Immediately after the Easter recess, or as soon as possible after the completion of the financial year, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will propose the financial statement or Budget, and that being of course a very important subject, will no doubt lead to a full discussion I have no need therefore, at the present time, to say anything with respect to the measures which my right hon. Friend

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intends to introduce. In the course of a few days the intentions of Her Majesty's Government will be made known in respect of the measures of legal reform, and of the improvement in the sale or transfer of land which it is the intention of the Government to propose. There are other important, measures which will be introduced with respect to Ireland. The House will feel that after the severe distress which Ireland had to undergo a very few years back, and the prolongation of that distress to a very recent period, she is entitled to any measure we can propose which will tend to the greater improvement and industry of that country. It has been already resolved by this House that two Bills relating to the question of landlord and tenant in Ireland should be referred to a Select Committee. I have now to state that it is the intention of the Chief Secretary for Ireland to take his seat in this House in a few days, and that he will propose the nomination of that Committee, placing upon it such Members as have given the most attention to this important subject. We have great hopes by this means of being able to bring-forward a measure which may be of use, and which may diminish, if not prevent, future causes of irritation in that country It is also our intention to bring forward a measure with respect to Ministers' Money. Such arc the measures which Her Majesty's Government at the present time intend to introduce. There is one other subject upon which I have no doubt that I am expected to say something, and respecting which I no doubt shall be asked questions; and it is quite as well that I should now declare what is the intention of the Government in regard to it—I allude to the important subject of the amendment of the Representation of the People of this country in Parliament. My noble Friend at the head of the Government has already stated that amendment in the representation of the people formed part of the measures which it had been in his contemplation, as well as in my own, to introduce; and I have now to beg the attention of the House to the few words which I shall say in reference to the present state of that question. In 1849, in 1850, and in 1851, the Cabinet over which I had the honour to preside considered this question; and early in 1852 I obtained leave from the House of Commons to introduce a Bill on the subject. The Government over which I presided, however, shortly afterwards dissolved, and it has been asserted that I then stated
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that I should introduce a more comprehensive measure than that which I had submitted to Parliament. That statement is utterly unfounded. I never said that I would introduce a measure either more comprehensive or more restricted, or in fact that I would bring in any measure at all. What I did say was, that I was quite ready to reconsider the matter. Now, Sir, the question is, whether it was the duty of the present Government to propose that the various subjects to which I have alluded should be laid aside, and to endeavour to obtain the renewal of the income tax for one year more on its former footing, in order that we might devote our whole time to a measure on the subject of Parliamentary representation. Now, I do not say that it would be impossible in point of time to attend to a measure of this kind, as well as to the others of which I have spoken. It would have required, no doubt, considerable effort in obtaining information, and very continual attention and deliberation on the part of the Government; but, Sir, considering the present state of affairs, and considering the inquiries and deliberations which would have been necessary in order to perfect such a measure, Her Majesty's Government have been of opinion that that subject ought not to be introduced in the present Session of Parliament. In arriving at this conclusion, I think that we have consulted both the public interest and the ultimate success of the measure itself, for I believe that if we had given up all other measures for this purpose, we should neither have well considered what is due to the public welfare nor to public opinion. I believe it would be far better that we should have further information and further deliberation on this important question, and that it would be advantageous to postpone settling it, even for a considerable time, rather than legislate upon it prematurely and without sufficient preparation. It is far more likely that a measure introduced at a future time, with all the information which can be procured on the subject, and with further deliberation, will be such as will settle this important question for a considerable period. At the same time I am far from wishing, and certainly I could not be a party to making the necessity of deliberation or any necessity of inquiry, a pretext for delaying a measure on this subject beyond a certain time. I think, therefore, that immediately upon the commencement of the next Session, the Government ought

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to introduce a measure upon this important question. There is one thing further I wish to say before I resume my seat, and that is, that we have no intention of appointing a Commission of Inquiry, which I am sure would only be transferring to others the responsibility which ought to be entailed upon ourselves. I do not believe that this is a proper subject for inquiry by a Commission, and I think that the Government have it in their own power to procure all the information that they may require. There is but one thing more to which I have to call the attention of the House; and that is with respect to the comments which I am sorry to be compelled to admit have been too justly made in regard to the acts of bribery and corruption which prevailed at the last election. There are no means of Parliamentary representation, however partial and limited—no defect in the distribution of the franchise, however unjust, which is so destructive of public virtue, or of the credit of our representative system, as these acts of bribery and corruption. We are by Select Committees, with respect to many of these cases of alleged bribery and corruption, investigating the truth of the charges. I think it better, therefore, until those investigations shall have been made, and the Committees shall have reported to the House the extent of the evil, to defer giving an opinion as to whether any further measures may be necessary to check bribery and corruption. I will only say, therefore, without pledging myself to any positive measure, that in my opinion the subject is one of the highest importance, and that if any measure should be considered necessary to cure the evil, no effort shall be wanting on my part to effect it.
MR. HAYTERsaid, that it might be convenient if he were to state the days upon which some of the Government measures would be brought forward. He therefore, begged to state that to-morrow the Chancellor of the Exchequer would move for leave to bring in a Bill to authorise advances from the Consolidated Fund to discharge money borrowed for Metropolitan Improvements. On Monday, the 14th, the Lord Advocate would move for leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate the procedure in the Sheriffs' Courts in Scotland. On Tuesday, the 15th, the Under Secretary for the Colonies would move for leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Legislature of Canada to make provision concerning the clergy reserves. On Friday, the 18th, the First Lord of the Admiralty would
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bring forward the Navy Estimates; and on the 22nd instant the President of the Board of Trade would move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to Pilotage. On the same day the Secretary for Foreign Affairs would move for a Committee of the whole House to take into consideration the civil disabilities affecting the Jews.

BETTING HOUSES—QUESTION.
SIR JAMES DUKEasked if Her Majesty's Government intended to introduce any measure on the subject of betting houses?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONreplied, that the question to which his hon. Friend alluded was one that required great attention, and he feared that there was a good deal of foundation for the opinion that much evil had been produced by betting houses. At the same time, the subject was involved in very great difficulties, and he confessed that he had not yet satisfied his own mind as to any practicable measure that would accomplish the purpose in view, without going beyond the object which was sought to be attained. But it was a subject to which he was still giving his attention.

THE ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS— QUESTION.
MR. BRIGHTbegged to ask the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government intended to introduce any measures for the reform—or, what would be infinitely better, the abolition—of the Ecclesiastical Courts.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, that a Commission had been appointed which had had under its consideration the subject of the Ecclesiastical Courts. It was desirable, before proceeding in the matter, to consider the report of that Commission, but the Government did intend to make a proposal on the subject.
The House adjourned at a quarter after Six o'clock.

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—Several Lords; The Lord Stourton and the Lord Petre took the Oath prescribed by the Act of 10th Geo. IV., to he taken by Peers professing the Roman Catholic religion.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Bail in Error; Chancery Suitors further Relief; Lunacy Regulation; Lunatic Asylums; Lunatics Care and Treatment; Bankruptcy; Criminal Law Amendment.

COMMON LAW PROCEDURE ACT—THE NEW RULES.
LORD CAMPBELLhad the honour to lay on the table a document of considerable importance, to which he wished to solicit their Lordships' attention. Parliament had been pleased to depute a legislative power, with certain restrictions, to the Judges with reference to the regulation of proceedings in their respective Courts, by the Act passed last Session of Parliament respecting Common Law Procedure. By that Act a power was given to the Judges to make rules and regulations to carry into full effect the intentions of the Legislature;
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but under the restriction that these rules and regulations should be laid before both Houses of Parliament, and it was not until the expiration of three months that they would become law, so that both Houses might have ample opportunity of forming an opinion respecting them. In the exercise of the power thus given to them, the Judges had most anxiously framed a set of rules and regulations to govern the proceedings in the superior courts at Westminster, and for the carrying into effect the intentions of the Common Law Procedure Act. He could venture to say, that; there were no men in the country more anxious than the Judges that the law should be administered with all possible simplicity, expedition, and economy; and it was upon that principle that the regulations had been framed. He had the satisfaction of stating that the Procedure Bill of last Session had worked admirably—it had greatly improved the practice of the superior courts, and rendered their proceedings more expeditious, more simple, and more economical. It was with the view of carrying these improvements still further, that the document he now moved should

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be printed, had been drawn up. The Judges would of course feel bound by the decision of Parliament on this subject, and if Parliament should disapprove of any of the rules which the Judges had framed, there would be ample time to bring in a Bill to alter them; but unless Parliament interposed, on the first day of Trinity Term these Rules and Regulations would become the law of the land.

BAIL IN ERROR BILL.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he wished to lay on the table a Bill the object of which he would state in a very few words. Their Lordships might remember that after the case of the late Mr. O'Connell before their Lordships' House had been disposed of, his noble and learned Friend, Lord Lyndhurst (then Lord Chancellor), brought in a Bill which he (Lord Campbell) warmly supported, which had for its object the admitting of persons who might have been convicted of an offence to bail, pending proceedings upon a writ of error. That Bill had been attended with some benefit, but it was also fraught with some inconvenience, and had not, perhaps, been framed with the necessary caution. Where the Attorney General prosecuted, there was no danger of collusion; but it often happened that prosecutions were instituted by private individuals from very improper motives, and there was often the danger of collusion between the prosecutor and the defendant. Indeed, he knew of cases since the Bill to which he referred had become the law of the land, where persons who had been convicted of the most scandalous offences had escaped punishment. The object of the Bill he was about to introduce was to guard against that evil.
The noble and learned Lord then presented a Bill to make further Provision for staying Execution of Judgment for Misdemeanors upon giving Bail in Error.
Bill read 1a.

CHANCERY REFORM—CHANCERY SUITORS FURTHER RELIEF BILL.
LORD ST. LEONARDSrose for the purpose of laying on the table certain Bills having reference to Chancery Procedure. Their Lordships would recollect that about the middle of November last he made a very full statement of certain measures which he intended to propose on the subject of a reform in the Court of Chancery. The kindness of his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack had con-
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tinued to him the facilities which he had before enjoyed with respect to the officers of the Court, and he was now able to ask permission to be allowed to lay the Bills on the table. On the occasion in question he had entered so fully into the provisions of the several Bills, that he should now content himself by shortly stating what their operation would be. The first Bill was for the further relief of suitors in the Court of Chancery, and its object was by a proper and new arrangement in the Accountant General's office, and by the proper management of the funds under his care, to enable the Court to reduce the expenses of litigation to such limits as might be desirable, in order to prevent improper litigation. He had no doubt that by the working of this Bill, and by the due administration of the funds, the expenses of suits in Chancery would be greatly reduced; and not only that, but that funds sufficient would be obtained to enable the Government at no distant day to erect courts for the administration of justice by the new Vice-Chancellors, with rooms attached, by which the new system might be fairly developed; and shortly afterwards to relieve the Consolidated Fund of the 26,000 l a year which it now contributed towards the payment of Judges in the Court of Chancery. He believed it would also prevent not only the brokerage and jobber's profit, but unnecessary sales of stock; and that system would cease to operate which had been considered so unseemly by which the Court of Chancery shared in the brokerage, and which formed a part of the fund. That would be entirely swept away, and the funds would never be operated upon by sales or purchases to a great amount with moneys belonging to the suitors. Another provision was, by the proper distribution of unclaimed dividends, to give to the Court new funds by which they would be enabled further to relieve the suitor. The noble and learned Lord then presented a Bill for the further Relief of the Suitors of the High Court of Chancery.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that of course any measure which had for its object the saving of expense to suitors, deserved the most serious consideration; and whether the measure of his noble and learned Friend would have that effect, must depend on a variety of details in the Bill, and the mode in which they would be likely to work. His noble and learned Friend had had the kindness to

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send him a copy of the Bill; but he must fairly confess that he had been as yet unable to make himself master of its details; and he made this avowal the more frankly, because the measure did not, strictly speaking, deal with the legal question, but with a financial one. The question as to how the transfer of funds at the Bank of England would or would not be likely to operate to the benefit of the suitors of the Court, was one which required grave consideration. He did not for a moment mean to say that the Bill was not a very salutary measure; but it depended on a variety of details, and the keeping of the accounts of funds amounting to above 48,000,000 l. sterling, and it must be looked at with great attention before the House would give its assent to such a measure. He hoped, when the Bill was printed, that it would be allowed to lie on the table for some considerable time, so that due consideration might be given to a measure in which their Lordships took so deep an interest.
LORD ST. LEONARDSintended to move that the Bill, with the others which he was about to introduce, should be referred to a Select Committee.
Bill read 1a.

LUNACY—LUNACY REGULATION BILL.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, he had also to present to the House a series of Bills relating to Lunatics. No Rills had been prepared with greater care and caution, and after greater consideration. They were three in number. The first Bill proposed to regulate the proceeding and dealing with the property of lunatics under the care of the Court of Chancery. The Court already possessed powers under Act of Parliament, but some addition to those powers was necessary. He had already explained the general purport of the Bill:—its effect would be greatly to lessen the expense and to throw a great deal more caution around the subject; it would prevent the unnecessary summoning of juries—unnecessary references to masters in lunacy—unnecessary attendance of the next of kin—often a source of great expense—and also unnecessary orders by the Lord Chancellor. It would also introduce for the first time chamber practice on tin-part of the Lord Chancellor with reference to lunatics. He believed that very few cases would arise which this Bill would not provide for. The second Bill related to Lunatic Asylums, and consolidated the
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laws on that subject; and its object was to remove the many objections and difficulties that existed under the present law. The third Bill had reference to the care and treatment of lunatics, and was an amendment of the Act known as Lord Shaftesbury's Act, which, it would be recollected, appointed Commissioners for the purpose of visiting lunatic asylums. That Bill contained a number of provisions which, it was found by experience, required amendment. In drawing up the present measure, every possible care had been taken to guard the liberty of the subject, and to prevent an accusation of lunacy being improperly made against a party, and, at the same time, to avoid unnecessary expense in establishing lunacy when it admitted of no doubt. It did not touch cases of criminal lunatics, because he understood it was the intention of the present Government to bring in some separate measure with regard to them. The subject of criminal lunatics was a most important one, and required to be treated by itself. He believed that one-tenth or one-eleventh of the lunatics committed to Bethlehem Hospital were actually sane, and had always been so, but they made pretences of insanity in order to escape the punishment which the law awarded for the crimes they had committed. If he could make his voice heard, he would warn persons not to imagine they could escape the punishment which justly awaited them by affecting insanity. He had seen instances which would make men tremble at the consequences of adopting such a course. In a county asylum in Ireland, he had witnessed two criminals, each of whom had been guilty of murder under the most atrocious circumstances, but who had affected to be of unsound mind; they were both perfectly sane, and after some years' confinement the agony which, as tears ran down their cheeks, they confessed they endured when they reflected on the horror of passing their whole life in an asylum surrounded by lunatics, was a far greater punishment than that which the law prescribed for their crimes, In the county asylums, though the criminal lunatics were supported by the public money, no attempt was made to cure them of the insanity under which they laboured; yet, if they were unaccountable subjects, they ought to be treated in the same way as other lunatics. He had no doubt the Government would give the subject that thorough consideration and revision which

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it deserved. There was one clause of the Act which might lead to a good deal of discussion. It was proposed to open Bethlehem Hospital to the same inspection by the Government Commissioners as other lunatic asylums were now liable to. He had read the whole of the voluminous reports respecting that establishment; but nothing would induce him to say anything painful as regarded the conduct of the persons adverted to in those documents, because it appeared that the examinations took place in the absence of the parties accused. He rejoiced to learn that the governors had, with great propriety, entirely altered the old system; they had appointed a resident physician, and were about to appoint, or had appointed, a resident apothecary, and had made other arrangements of an equally beneficial character. He thought the check proposed to be held over the management of the Hospital would work well, and he apprehended it would not be objected to. One of the governors had himself stated that he believed the exception in the Act in regard to the inspection of Bethlehem was very injudicious. That being so, it was to be hoped the governors would gladly accept the means which were suggested for keeping their own officers and establishment in order, and for obviating the origination of abuses of any kind. The noble and learned Lord then presented a Bill for the Regulation of Proceedings under Commission of Lunacy, and the Consolidation and Amendment of the Acts respecting Lunatics and their Estates (Lunacy Regulation Bill); a Bill to consolidate and amend the Laws for the Provision and Regulation of Lunatic Asylums for Counties and Boroughs, and for the maintenance and Care of Pauper Lunatics in England (Lunatic Asylums Bill); and a Bill to amend an Act passed in the Ninth Year of Her Majesty for the Regulation of the Care and Treatment of Lunatics (Lunatics Care and Treatment Bills).
Bills read 1a respectively.

REFORM IN BANKRUPTCY—BANKRUPTCY BILL.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, the next Bill which he proposed to introduce related to Bankruptcy. It contained a variety of provisions which their Lordships would have an opportunity fully of considering; but its chief object was to induce persons who unfortunately became insolvent, and, in the common acceptation
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of the phrase, "incapable of meeting their obligations," to get at once into the Court of Bankruptcy without fear and without shame. In order to accomplish this he proposed, inter alia, to abolish first, second, and third class certificates. The noble and learned Lord presented a Bill further to amend the Laws relating to Bankrupts, to extend the jurisdiction of the Court of Bankruptcy, and make such Court auxiliary to the Court of Chancery (Bankruptcy Bill).
Bill read 1a.

CONSOLIDATION OF THE CRIMINAL LAW —CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
LORD ST. LEONARDS: My last Bill relates to a digest of the Criminal Law. If the present Government think, as the last Government thought, that this subject is an important one, I shall be happy to render my services in carrying it out. I propose that this shall be effected by a series of measures. That which I now submit is the first in that direction, and I can assure your Lordships that it has been prepared with great care and attention. It contains some general provisions, and lays down some general rules which will be applicable to the whole subject. I have very much at heart the prevention of murders and minor brutalities between husband and wife. With respect to bodily injuries to a wife, I have made it a distinct crime; and so with regard to any minor brutality. On the question as to the responsibility of a wife for a crime committed in the presence of her husband, the Commissioners to whom these questions of law have been referred, are of opinion that the law should be altered, and that the wife should not be protected unless she could prove that she committed the offence under the actual influence of her husband. There is only one thing more to which I will call your Lordships' attention, and that is the offence of duelling. The Commissioners recommended the punishment of duelling to be removed from the first class to the second, because they thought that when the punishment was reduced to transportation or imprisonment, juries would no longer hesitate to find verdicts of guilty. This is very sensible; but still I have ventured to leave the law as it stands. The offence is now murder, and the punishment the highest that man can inflict—death. And now that the healthy tone of society has done what law never did and never can accomplish—rendered

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it impossible for a man living in society either wantonly to provoke a, duel, or to refuse the explanation and satisfaction justly duo to another, I would leave it to some other time, if it should become necessary, to alter the law. We know not what the effect of degrading the punishment, if I may so express myself, might be. Society might no longer exercise its influence in this direction. Look at the effect of putting down boxing, fair fighting amongst the lower orders, which was rendered necessary by the brutal and brutalising prize fights. From my boyhood upwards, if man or boy, at the moment of quarrel, happened to have an offensive; weapon in his hand, he cast it far from him, and "up with his fists." A fair fight ensued: but, now that such personal encounters are not permitted, there must be resort to some means of punishing an insult—an Englishman no longer hesitates to search for his knife, and plunges it into the abdomen of his antagonist. I have, therefore, left the law applicable to duelling as I found it. I have made a separate provision to meet such cases as those of Cannon the sweep's. If men will abuse the strength which God has given them, the law should guard us as far as may be from their murderous assaults. I have added to the severe punishment, solitary confinement. The law was found strong enough to punish Cannon, who is now under sentence of transportation; but although the offence would fall within one of the general classes, yet, as in the case of assaults of husbands upon wives, I have made it the subject of a separate provision, in order-that such ruffians may know that the Legislature has provided against their particular crime, and that the provision may be generally circulated, in the hope of putting an end to such atrocities. The noble and learned Lord then presented a Bill to consolidate and amend the Criminal Law of England, so far as relates to Incapacity to commit Crimes, Duress, Criminal Intention, Criminal Agency and Participation, and Homicide, and other offences against the Person (Criminal Law Amendment Bill).
LORD CAMPBELLrejoiced that his noble and learned Friend had introduced this Bill; and without, giving any opinion as to how far he could agree to the amendments it contained, he must say he certainly never had the smallest doubt that the criminal law ought to be codified; and
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he thought the exertions of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham), who was now absent, in reference to this very important subject, had been of the highest value. Though he (Lord Campbell) thought it was fitting and proper that this, the first portion of the intended consolidation of the criminal law, should be introduced and maturely considered, and that it should be passed if it met with the approbation of both Houses of Parliament, he was clearly of opinion that it should not come into operation until the whole object was completed. If a contrary course were taken, it would be the first time in any nation that a new code of laws had been put into force piecemeal. The inconvenience that must arise by such a mode of proceeding was at once obvious. However, these observations were not arguments against the introduction of the Bill, and his only object in rising on the present occasion was to suggest to his noble and learned Friend the propriety of inserting a clause postponing the operation of the Bill until the whole code was completed. If his noble and learned Friend objected to do so, he should feel it his duty to propose a clause of that kind at some future stage of the Bill. With regard to duelling, he entirely concurred with what had fallen from his noble and learned Friend, and he thought the measures proposed would have the effect of reducing it to even a lower ebb than it was at present, Duelling did not require to be put down by law, as public opinion was already putting it down; but he thought that duelling should still be in the eye of the law murder, and that it should remain with those who advised the Crown in these cases to say whether, under the peculiar circumstances, the law should take its course.
Bill read 1a.

MINISTERIAL POLICY.
The EARL of DERBY: Before the House adjourns, I trust Her Majesty's Government will allow me to put a question, or rather to make a single remark, which I hope they will not think an unnecessary one. Under ordinary circumstances, at the commencement of the Session, as your Lordships are aware, it is the practice, and I venture to think a very useful practice, for the Ministers of the Crown, through the medium of the Royal Speech, to explain to Parliament and the country more or less fully, though not descending

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into minute particulars, the general measures which it is the intention of the Government to submit for consideration. I am well aware that at the present moment we are not at the commencement of a Session, and that we meet under circumstances which deprive us of hearing through the ordinary channel what the intentions of Her Majesty's Government may be. Your Lordships are aware that at the present moment, Parliament having been adjourned and not prorogued, and a new Government having succeeded to office since the delivery of the Royal Speech, we have no indication of the specific measures which it is the intention of that Government to submit to Parliament; yet the circumstances of the occasion are such as to render it not less expedient that the policy of the Government should be made known then, as if it were the first day of a new Session. I do not put the question in any hostile spirit, nor am I about to ask of Her Majesty's Government any expression of the general political principles on which legislation will be conducted. The noble Earl opposite, indeed, gave what it may be presumed might be intended as an explanation of principles on his first assumption of office; and although that explanation did not throw any great light on the general policy of the Government, but left us in a state of as much uncertainty as to the course which will be pursued, as before that speech was delivered, and although, certainly, we are unable to form any possible conjecture as to the line of policy, or the general political principles, from the antecedents and previous opinions of a portion of those who compose the Government, I suppose if I put the question, I should receive much the same sort of general explanation. My Lords, I am not therefore anxious to ask on what principles the Government is about to proceed; but I think I have a right to ask for a statement of the measures they intend to propose, as it is more desirable the Government should be practically tested by those measures which they will submit to the consideration of Parliament, than by the vague generalities in which the First Ministers of the Crown may veil the policy which it is intended to pursue. But I should be glad to hear from the noble Earl—and I should have been still more glad if the noble Earl had volunteered the statement, and rendered this question unnecessary—what are the principal measures he means to submit, and to which he thinks
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the attention of this and the other House of Parliament may the most profitably and most usefully be directed in the course of the present Session, and especially which of such measures he proposes to proceed with in the earlier portion of this Session. The noble and learned Lord on the woolsack (Lord Cranworth) has given notice that on Monday next he will inform the House what the Government intend to propose with regard to the question of law reform. With regard to that question, I trust they will follow the course which has reflected so much credit on the assiduity and industry of my noble and learned Friend near me (Lord St. Leonards), which assiduity and industry, I am glad to find, from the statement he has just made, he has not abandoned with that office from which, I may venture to say in his presence, and even in the presence of the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack, this country has great cause to regret his removal. I hope the course of law reform entered upon so actively and energetically by my noble and learned Friend will not suffer by the transfer of the seals to other hands; and of this I am quite certain that to no hands could they have been transferred with less probability of those reforms being prejudiced than to those of the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack. But, my Lords, I am informed it is the intention of the Government—if that intention has not already been carried into effect—to make a statement in the other House of Parliament in the course of this evening, by the mouth of one of the noble Earl's Colleagues, indicating the measures which Her Majesty's Government will introduce; and although it may be quite true that we shall probably have the opportunity, by the usual breach of privilege, of ascertaining to-morrow morning, through the ordinary channels of information, the course the Government intend to pursue—even though the noble Earl himself make no statement. I think it would be more consistent with Parliamentary practice, and would show more consideration for your Lordships' House, if the head of the Government were to indicate the measures which it is the intention of the Government to introduce—more especially as I presume that the statement will be made in the other House upon the joint responsibility of the noble Earl and his Colleagues. I think it fully as important that that statement should be made here, because, from the

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circumstances of the present year, the early part of this Session must be more than ordinarily occupied in the other House with business of a description in which your Lordships do not interfere, and that will necessarily postpone legislative measures, however pressing, to a period of the year when it is very difficult to obtain for your Lordships' House of Parliament the requisite time and attention for legislation. Easter this year occurs at an unusually early period, and before the recess the Government can only command a very few nights for bringing forward any measures beyond those financial arrangements which must be necessarily proceeded with at once; and during that time I am not-aware of anything being before your Lord ships' House. On the other hand, experience teaches that a very valuable portion of your Lordships' time has been year after year, in the earlier portions of the Session, consumed in doing absolutely nothing; and then, towards the close of the Session, an accumulation of business conies upon us in a manner that renders anything like satisfactory legislation almost impracticable, to the great disadvantage of your Lordships, and to the great disadvantage of the country. I think it most desirable that your Lordships should, as early as possible, he in a position to judge practically of the confidence you are able to place in the present Government—that you should be informed what are the subjects to which, as I presume, in the last six weeks they have directed their attention—what are the subjects on which the Cabinet have made up their minds, and what are the subjects they intend in the present Session to submit to the consideration of Parliament. As I have already said, I do not ask for the assertion of any general principles, but I ask for a declaration of the measures the Government intend to submit to Parliament. I think, more especially in the present state of parties, that nothing can be more desirable than that the Government—if they are desirous of conscientiously performing their duties and proving by the practical measures they introduce their capacity to govern—and yet not their capacity, for of that there can be no doubt, as there has seldom been embodied a larger amount of talent than in the present Cabinet; but I will say—proving that the talent they possess is turned to its full account for the service of the country; and that whatever political differences of opinion may have subsisted between them on former
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occasions they are able to combine and co-operate together for the purpose of bringing forward measures which are useful and valuable to the country—that the Government should have an opportunity of earning the confidence of the country and establishing its claims to that confidence in a manner far more satisfactory than can be achieved by a mere declaration of principle, or by any announcement of the views which they individually entertain. They will have to be judged by their practice and performance, and not by their declarations of principle; and I venture to say on the part of myself and of those friends with whom I have the honour of acting, that if they bring forward such measures as we in our consciences can support and approve, they will receive from us not only no opposition—not only no desire on our parts to disturb the positions they hold—but nothing will give us more satisfaction than to find we are able to co-operate with them for the purpose of carrying measures useful and beneficial to the country, On the other hand, we ought to know what course it is the intention of the Government to pursue—we ought to know how far they will adopt and carry out those measures partly shadowed forth by the noble Earl opposite, and whether he is inclined to bring forward measures of such a character as it will be impossible for a Conservative Opposition to approve.
EARL FITZWILLIAMwas not surprised at the appeal that had been made by the noble Earl; but he questioned whether it was so particularly consonant with the precedent and practice of former times to call on the Administration, formed under the circumstances under which the present Administration was formed, to declare the particular measures which they intended to propose as the noble Earl assumed. His noble Friend would recollect that on the formation of the Government, the noble Karl at the head of it did declare distinctly that the object of his Administration would be to maintain, support, and extend the policy of free trade. So far, then, the principles of the Administration had been declared. How far it would be expedient, at the present moment, that Her Majesty's Ministers should enter into a statement of the particular measures which they intended to propose, was another question, and one into which he should abstain on the present occasion from entering. The question of law reform appeared to him to have been taken up by

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the late Government, and to be now resumed by the present Government. The public had nothing further to expect than that the present Administration should carry into effect those reforms which were prepared by the last Administration, and which they had taken from those to whom they succeeded. Notwithstanding, therefore, the curiosity of his noble Friend, he hoped the noble Earl at the head of the Government would not give too much satisfaction to that curiosity, and not excite in the public mind too early a consideration of measures which it might be afterwards more prudent to abstain from pressing. He trusted that the noble Earl, from prudential considerations, would not listen too hastily to the question which had been put to him.
The EARL of ABERDEEN: My Lords, on the last day of the meeting of the House I laid before your Lordships in general terms the principles on which the Government had been formed, and on which they intended to act. In addition I alluded to the principal subjects which would engage the attention of the Government, with a view to future legislation. Those subjects have since that day occupied the attention of the Cabinet; and on those subjects, or the greater part of them, I trust legislation will take place, without delay. But as that legislation must for the most part originate in the House of Commons, I believe that it would not, as the noble Earl states, be following the precedents in this House to announce to your Lordships measures which are to be brought forward in the other House. With respect to law reforms, my noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) has already given notice of his intention to state on Monday next, the measures which he has in readiness or preparation to lay before your Lordships. Notwithstanding what has been done on that subject, I believe there is much yet to do; and no doubt the measures prepared by my noble and learned Friend will sufficiently show that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to apply themselves earnestly to the work. I am glad to know that the noble Earl opposite is prepared to examine these measures with impartiality and fairness; and if he should be able to give them his support, undoubtedly it will very much facilitate their passing into law; but should they not meet his approval, I still trust the measures now
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announced, or about to be announced, will be such as to merit the support of your Lordships.
The EARL of DERBY; I rejoice to hear that measures of law reform are in a forward state of preparation for legislation; but though I receive that statement with considerable satisfaction, I am somewhat disappointed by the answer given by the noble Earl opposite, in which his conclusions differ from those of the noble Earl on the cross benches. The noble Earl on the cross benches appears to consider that any statement of the intentions of the Government would be wholly premature. No doubt, after the intimation of the noble Earl (the Earl of Aberdeen) that no information will be given to the House of Lords by the Minister of the Crown, my noble Friend (Earl Fitzwilliam) will look with as much curiosity and anxiety as I shall to the morning papers, for the purpose of discovering through them that information which I still venture to think it would have been more respectful to your Lordships' House to have communicated to your Lordships by one of the Ministers of the Crown; and my noble Friend on the cross benches will there find, by the consent of a united Government, a Colleague of the noble Earl at the head of the Government, in detail and in extenso, making that statement to the House of Commons with regard to the intentions of Her Majesty's Government, which the noble Earl thinks it imprudent and premature to make in the House of Lords.
EARL FITZWILLIAMsaid, there was a difference between a Minister in the House of Commons declaring what measures it was proposed to introduce in that House, and his noble Friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) declaring in their Lordships' House the measures which his Colleagues would propose elsewhere.
The EARL of DERBY: I have always understood that Colleagues in one House were ready to answer for their Colleagues in the other; and I am sure that the noble Lord in the other House would not take the step of announcing in detail the intentions of the Government without the consent of his Colleagues here. But I will limit my question to asking the noble Earl opposite what measures he intends, upon the part of Her Majesty's Government, to submit to your Lordships' House in the course of the present Session?
The EARL of ABERDEENbowed, but returned no answer.
The EARL of DERBY: Does silence mean none? Does the noble Earl, on the part of the Government, mean that no measures are to be introduced into your Lordships' House this Session?
The EARL of ABERDEENagain bowed.
The EARL of DERBY: May I be permitted to ask, again, what measures will be introduced into this House this Session? I have the sanction of my noble Friend upon the cross benches (Earl Fitzwilliam) for putting at least this question. Still no answer?
House adjourned till To-morrow.