Sitting of 8 August 1853

MINUTES.
NEW WRIT.—For the City of Cork, v. Francis Stack Murphy, Esq., Commissioner for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors in England.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Corrupt Practices at Elections.
2° Registrar of Meetings; Copyholds, &c. Commission Continuance; Commons Inclosure (No. 3).
3° Pilotage; Charitable Trusts; Lunatic Asylums.

SUPPLY—MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
House in Committee of Supply
(1.) 50,000 l., Civil Contingencies.
MR. HUMEsaid, he must complain of an item of 374 l. in the Vote paid for the passage of General Roses to this country.
MR. J. WILSONsaid, the item was paid by the Treasury in consequence of a communication from the Foreign Office to the Treasury. General Rosas was brought over in a ship of war, and it was always usual in such cases to pay the expenses out of the Treasury.
MR. HUMEthought this was carrying civility to an enemy a little too far. There were several other inconsistent and extravagant items in the estimate: he would suggest that in future the Treasury ought to look more closely after them. He hoped that these miscellaneous estimates would be submitted next year to a Select Committee for revision, and that all fees payable on occasions of honours being conferred, should be done away with.
MR. SULLIVANbegged to call the attention of the Committee to the item of 2,000 l. paid for the purpose of obtaining accurate statistical information with respect to the progress of agriculture in Ireland. He did not complain of the amount, but
1452
was desirous that the machinery for obtaining the information to which he referred might be placed upon a more efficient footing than that upon which it was at present placed.
MR. J. WILSONsaid, he attached the greatest possible importance to the subject to which the hon. Member had called their attention. Captain Larcom, who was at the head of the statistical department in Ireland, was a most efficient officer, and he felt assured that his most zealous attention, as well as that of the Government, would be directed to the subject.
MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, he objected to what he termed the desultory character of the entire Vote. He did not see why so many estimates should be referred to one general head, and why, at all events, with respect to several of the items under the words "civil contingencies," a particular Vote should not be taken.
SIR JOHN SHELLEYsaid, connected with this subject, there was a very destructive disease prevalent among the stock of the agriculturists in this country, and large sums had been expended by private individuals and societies for the purpose of instituting inquiries into the nature of that disease, and of obtaining accurate statistical information with respect to it. He thought it extremely necessary that the Government should take the matter into their own hands, and appoint parties to investigate the subject, who should receive their salaries out of the public funds.
Vote agreed to; as were the following three Votes:—

(2.) 511,887 l., Commissariat Department

(3.) 45,239 l., Half Pay, &c. Commissariat Department.

(4.) 3,500 l., Governor of Jamaica.

(5.) 50,000 l. Naval Coast Volunteers.

SIR JAMES GRAHAMsaid, that when he had introduced the Bill for the organisation of this force, he had stated, in answer to questions put to him, that the probable expense of raising 10,000 men would be about 100,000 l. a year, including the bounties to be paid. As half the present year was now gone, and as he did not anticipate raising above 5,000 men before the end of the present financial year, he therefore new proposed to take a Vote of 50,000 l. only for this purpose, which was half the anticipated annual charge of the whole force
MR. HUMEsaid, he hoped that the country, now that it had to pay 100,000 l.

1453
a year for militia, and another 100,000 l. for naval coast volunteers, would be very speedily disgusted with the warlike fever which had lately infected it. For his part, he had no faith in bounties, and he believed that the proper way of raising an efficient naval force was by increasing the mercantile marine.
CAPTAIN SCOBELLsaid, he must complain that ablebodied seamen were now the only class which had no bounties held out to them.
SIR JAMES GRAHAMhoped the gallant Officer would go down to Spithead on Thursday, and he would there see as fine a body of British seamen as ever were collected together, all raised without bounties.
Vote agreed to.
(6.) 835,212 l., Post Office Packet Service.
MR. HUMEsaid, he wished to know, before this Vote was agreed to, what was the tenor of the Report of the Committee which had been appointed to inquire into this subject. He had been informed by very competent men that the effect of voting so large a sum for the packet service had hitherto been to impede to some extent the progress of the facility of intercommunication between this and other countries. Rival companies had been prevented from starting, and of course competition was at an end. He wished to know if a reduction of the amount proposed to be voted, had not been recommended some time since by the Committee which was appointed to consider the subject.
MR. COWPERsaid, the Report of the Committee to which the hon. Gentleman referred, was already on the table of the House, and had been for some days, having been printed on the 29th of July. Having been a Member of that Committee, he could assure hon. Members that the whole subject of the contract packet service had been thoroughly examined. All the details of the subject had been fully gone into, and would be found in the Report. The Committee had not been able to recommend any immediate or great reduction in the service, because most of the sums paid for it were sums agreed to be paid by the Government under contracts for a series of years; and so long as the contracting parties continued to execute their contracts efficiently, it was not possible for the Government to determine them. At a future period, however, when the present contracts came to a conclusion, there was a prospect that arrangements might be made by which the service could be performed as efficiently and more
1454
economically than it was at present. A system was practicable by which the Post-office could promote competition among companies. In the present estimate there was a small reduction on that of last year, and the saving had been effected by removing the Mediterranean service from the Queen's packets to the Peninsular and Oriental. Steam Navigation Company. Owing to the great increase of steam navigation, and the application of the screw to merchant shipping, it was possible that agreements might be entered into with the mercantile marine for carrying the mails, by which the Government would not have to pay the greater portion of the expenses of the packets, but only just sufficient to defray the expenses of the freight, with a margin large enough to insure the speed and despatch which were necessary for postal service. According to an estimate which would be found in the Report of the Committee, the gross amount received by the Post-office upon foreign and colonial postage, was 556,492 l. The net receipts, deducting the amount to be paid to foreign, countries and the inland postage, were 143,782 l. The annual amount paid for the service which earned this, was 822,390 l. The total amount paid for all lines, including colonial, foreign, and the British Islands, was 877,797 l., and this was paid to vessels which earned 521,613 l., carried to the account of the Post-office. It had been found necessary to pay large sums on the chief lines in order to induce the parties to embark their money in the undertakings required. On the whole, he believed that this service had been performed in a manner generally satisfactory. The North Atlantic Ocean was now traversed with a punctuality and regularity which would allow of a journey over 3,000 miles of stormy ocean to be compared favourably, for security and certainty, with one over ant equal distance of terra firma. The Peninsular and Oriental Company had also fulfilled their contracts with a praiseworthy efficiency and regularity. There were certainly, a few exceptions to be made; for instance, the Australian Steam Navigation Company—a company which had been Brought before that House on several occasions—owing to inexperience in its management, had entirely failed in executing its contract, which was consequently put an end to. Many complaints too had reached the Admiralty with regard to the irregularities of the West India line; and; the Admiralty had felt bound to give the Company fair notice that, unless the ser-

1455
vice were performed for the future with the requisite punctuality and despatch, the Government would feel bound to take advantage of that clause in the contract which gave them power to put an end to it.
MR. HUMEhoped that no new contract would be entered into without the fullest inquiries being made. He thought the country had great reason to complain that, after paying all these large sums for the packet service, they were not allowed the benefit of an ocean penny postage. He believed the main reason why it was not established, was the obstinacy of the departments interested. He was certain the Government did not properly take into consideration the immense number of emigrants who had left our shores in the course of the last few years, and the great interest which this country had in their being enabled to keep up a correspondence with their relations at home.
MR. JOHN MACGREGORsaid, he believed that a postage of 3d.—1d. for the land postage on this side, 1d. for the ocean postage, and 1d. for the land postage on the other side, would amply cover all the expenses of carrying letters to the Colonies. Sixpence per letter was too much, at least for emigrants. He hoped the Government would direct their attention to the establishment of a regular and speedy communication with the Australian colonies.
MR. COWPERsaid, he had alluded to the transference of the Mediterranean service to the Peninsular and Oriental Company, by which a saving was made. No doubt similar transferences might take place in other directions. With regard to the service from Dover to Calais, and from Dovor to Ostend, the Government would ask for tenders, and if the inquiry was satisfactory, then the Queen's packets would be given up. With respect to the service to Australia, he had to say that at present the experiment as to which was the best route was in progress, mails being sent alternate months by Singapore and by the Cape of Good Hope, and the choice of a route by the Government would depend upon the results.
Vote agreed to.
(7.) 200,000 l., Kafir War.
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, as this was the only occasion when it would be possible to bring this subject before the House, he hoped he should be pardoned if he took up a few moments in adverting to the late settlement of the Kafir war. He thought that House, as guardian of the public purse, was bound to see that the
1456
war which had lately been raging in Kafraria was settled on such a footing that there could be no expectation of seeing it renewed within a short time. The present occasion was one of peculiar importance, because the Colony had just received from this country representative institutions with all the rights of British citizens, accompanied, at the same time, with a strong intimation that together with those institutions the colonists would be expected to undertake their own internal defence. If the present opportunity were passed by, this country would never again have the opportunity of calling upon the Colony to place itself on that footing. The whole of that Colony was being put entirely on a new footing, and if this House expressed no interest in this new arrangement, and left all to the Colonial Minister—whatever might be the sequel, whatever wars night break out, however bloody and ruinous to this country and the Colony—it would have no right to complain. He wished to elicit from the Under Secretary for the Colonies what arrangement had been made, and what treaties had been entered into, and whether he could hold out any expectation that the settlement effected would be permanent? Generally speaking, he had supported the colonial policy of the noble Duke now at the head of the Colonial Office, but he strongly condemned the noble Duke's policy with regard to the frontier question. In his opinion, the inhabitants of a distant dependency were themselves the persons who ought to fix the territory which they wished to occupy—they should fix the limits, and then apply to Her Majesty, praying Her to take that territory under Her allegiance. He believed that in the annals of this Colony there had been no more fertile source of war than the varied and capricious views taken by the different Colonial Secretaries of the frontier question. It seemed as if each succeeding Minister had determined on this point to indulge his own views to the utmost, and to immortalise himself by a policy of his own. There was not a Colonial Minister who might not be known by his peculiar frontier policy. He believed it was now proposed to hire Swiss troops to occupy and guard the frontier, as more fitted for mountain warfare than British troops. He saw no objection to the plan; but it certainly ought not to be adopted without being first submitted to Parliament, for this was certainly the first time that it had been proposed to hire foreign troops to defend our frontiers. This, he believed, was

1457
certain, that so long as we maintained colonial wars with troops sent out from this country, and paid by the Imperial Treasury, so long should we be involved in hopeless incessant warfare there. That was the case in Canada after the capture of Quebec. Army after army of Imperial troops disappeared in unsuccessful warfare, and the end of the struggle was that this country had to withdraw the Imperial troops, and leave the local militia—the hunters and backwoodsmen—men who led the same sort of life as their enemies, to put an end to the war, which they did very speedily. He had talked with Colonel Eyre—a very competent authority on the subject—and his opinion was, that England had so long taken the conduct of the war upon herself that the colonists themselves would not turn out as they would have done once; they had lost all self-reliance, and when they had other people to fight for them, it was not likely that they would be very ready to leave their wives and families and fight for themselves. On the other hand, we had trained the Kafirs to a greater efficiency in warlike operations. Colonel Eyre was of opinion that it would be necessary for the House of Commons to consent to the maintenance of a force of 10,000 men; but, if we could train back the settlers into military efficiency, into habits of self-reliance, no very long time would elapse, he thought, before they would be able to cope with the Kafirs, which regular troops never could completely be made to do. By sending out troops to the Colony we created a moneyed community there, interested in keeping up a state of war for the sake of the supplies which were sent out from England, out of which fortunes were to be made. That, he believed, was already pretty clearly perceived in the Colony. The noble Duke had done three things—first, he had sent out Sir George Clerk to South Africa, with instructions not to report, but to carry out the abandonment of the Orange River Sovereignty: next, he had consented that a constant force of 4,000 men should be kept up in that country at the expense of Great Britain, with head quarters at Graham's Town; and, lastly, he had effected an arrangement of tribes upon the Kei River frontier, such as no doubt the noble Duke supposed would be the best for the maintenance of peace. Now, with regard to the first point, he very much doubted its legality; he doubted whether Her Majesty, having once proclaimed a territory within Her allegiance, not by treaty or conquest,
1458
but by occupation, could renounce that territory, and throw Her subjects there off from their allegiance. Certainly She could not do it, he thought, without the sanction of an Act of Parliament. He believed all the colonists, without exception, condemned this renunciation. When Sir George Cathcart first went out, he called the settlers in the Orange River Sovereignty together, and put it to them whether they were willing to be taken under the jurisdiction of the colony, and whether, if so annexed, they would undertake the defence of their own territory. That they undertook to do, under condition that Great Britain would provide them with a force of 500 men for five years, and they were even willing to bear the expense of this force, as he was informed. If such were the case, he put it to the Committee, whether it would not cost the country more to abandon this territory than to retain it. The noble Duke the Colonial Secretary had allowed that, if the territory were given up, we must compensate those who had settled in the territory since it had been made part of the Colony, and he believed these were 15,000 in number. Besides, by giving up the Orange River territory we should be abandoning the best frontier line which we could possibly have; and, if another war broke out, and of course we should not be able to call on the colonists to sustain it, because, having ourselves arbitrarily fixed a frontier, which was contrary to their wish and their advice, we could not expect them to defend it. If we abandoned the Orange River Sovereignty, Natal, which in that case would be perfectly isolated, and which, as it was, had always been a source of great anxiety and uneasiness during the Kafir war, would be for ever lost to this country. The Orange River territory, too, was the best line of internal communication, and if we lost it we should lose the soil best calculated for that produce which Manchester so much desired to see cultivated on our own soil, and within our own dominions. What, too, was to become of the slave trade, for everyone knew that if there was one point more than another where the slave traffiew as assailable, it was on the east coast of Africa? With regard to the second point, if 4,000 troops were to be maintained in the Colony, they must be paid for by the colonists; and with regard to the arrangement of the tribes, he believed it was the general opinion in the Colony that what had been adopted was of all others least likely to lead to a permanent peace. He was informed that it had been found necessary

1459
to locate hostile tribes on the territory of friendly tribes, and that, he thought, was an arrangement which could not fail to bring about a speedy renewal of the war. If the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies could not give the Committee satisfactory information on all these points, he should feel it his duty early next Session to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the subject.
MR. FREDERICK PEELassured the Committee that the measures referred to by the hon. Gentleman had received tin approbation of the colonists themselves who recognised in them a security for the good government of the colony, and for the maintenance of peace. That with regard to the first point to which the hon. Gentleman had alluded—the evacuation of the Orange River territory—the opinion which the noble Duke at the head of the Colonial Office had expressed on the subject was very much strengthened by the fact, that the possibility of this course being taken was foreseen by Lord Grey some time ago, and that the right hon. Gentleman the late Secretary for the Colonies, as he was informed, had himself been prepared to act upon the same view. Her Majesty's Government were of opinion that, where it was practicable, instead of extending, we ought rather to contract, the limits of the Colony. The principal difficulty with which the Government in South Africa had to contend, had arisen from the enormous extent of that territory, from the long line of frontier, and from the impossibility of protecting that line, so that not one single point should be left open without a expense to this country disproportionate to the value of the object to be secured; and moreover, far beyond the ability and disposition of this country to persevere in. He was sure that of all measures which had been adopted at the Cape, the most questionable in respect to their policy had been those which had involved the acquisition of territory. When Sir Harry Smith first went out to the Cape, there were very large additions made to the Colony. Not to speak of what took place in the north, the Orange River territory was annexed without any previous communication with the authorities at home, and with very little acquaintance with the feelings of the inhabitants; and even that little, as it had subsequently turned out, was entirely incorrect. Sir Harry Smith annexed that enormous extent of territory, and during the five years which had elapsed, it had been of no advantage either to this coun-
1460
try or to the colonists. On the contrary, it had been a source of constant uneasiness and anxiety both to Sir Harry Smith and to General Cathcart, lest there should be a rupture between the Kafirs and Europeans within the territory; and, if anything of the sort had taken place, it would have proved inconvenient to the prosecution of hostile operations against the enemy, and would have greatly retarded the satisfactory settlement of the war. Her Majesty's Government had contented themselves with expressing a general opinion in favour of an abandonment of that territory, and of the withdrawal of the protection which was reluctantly extended to it at the instigation of Sir Harry Smith. Her Majesty's Government were quite aware that, with regard to the manner and time of carrying out that measure, they must depend upon a conjunction of circumstances, which could only be siezed by persons on the spot; and instead, therefore, of laying down any positive directions in this country, they had appointed Sir George Clerk as a Special Commissioner to Kafraria, and it would be his duty to take all the steps necessary for carrying out the object which Her Majesty's Government had in view. The hon. Gentleman questioned the legality of this renunciation of the Orange River Sovereignty; but he (Mr. Peel) was not prepared to say that there was not the same facility for abandoning as for acquiring territory. The hon. Gentleman's objection would equally apply to the case of the Dutch Boers beyond the Vaal River, who had been made independent. At the same time, it might be necessary to grant protection to such as exercised magisterial authority in the territory for the acts which they had done there during the period of its retention; and, if so, such a Bill, containing the necessary provisions, would be introduced at the earliest opportunity in the next Session. The hon. Gentleman's next objection was, that it would be more expensive to abandon the Colony than to retain it, because so many settlers would have to be compensated. Claims for compensation, he apprehended, could only arise on one of two grounds, either that the titles to property had been rendered less secure, or that the value of the property itself had been diminished; but in evacuating the territory, every care would be taken to make the titles to property as secure as they would have been had we retained it, and, so far as the value of land was concerned, he believed it would be considerably enhanced by the change. He certainly saw no rea

1461
son why the loss of Natal should be a consequence of the abandonment of the Orange River Sovereignty; there was no connexion between the two, for they were separate from each other by the natural boundary of a range of mountains. With regard to the advantages of the territory in the way of internal communication, though we had now had possession of it for five years, they had been so little appreciated by the colonists that within the last twelve months an arrangement had been made with a steam navigation company, by which a vessel was despatched to Natal once a month, showing plainly that the sea communication had been found much more convenient. We had originally occupied the Orange River territory with the view, not so much of making it part of the Colony, as of exercising an arbitration between the inhabitants, and of composing their quarrels; but that had been found impossible without marching a military force into it. General Cathcart, whose opinion was entitled to some respect, had come away from the territory fully impressed with the opinion that it was not, and never had been, the wish of the natives to be placed under our rule. With regard to the Dutch farmers, there was every reason to believe that they still cherished the same feelings which led them originally to abandon the Cape Colony. It was the wish, they were informed, of the Dutch farmers to be allowed to organise an administration of their own. He felt that the frequent bloody and costly wars in the Colony had rendered it imperative upon the Government to endeavour to make arrangements by which their recurrence should be obviated, or by which, in the event of their recurrence, the responsibility of them should be transferred from us to the colonists. No one would dispute that, he thought, when it was remembered that in the course of the last six years we had expended 4,000,000 l, in Kafir wars. The hon. Gentleman's remarks went to this, that we ought to remove our troops from the colony, and so relieve ourselves of all responsibility; but that would only be repeating the error of 1846 and 1847. Everything had been done to relieve the troops in the way of rendering the local forces as efficient as possible; and, on the whole, there was every reason to believe that precautions had been adopted, and an impression made on the minds of the natives which would greatly diminish the risk of a war breaking out at any future time.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, that if
1462
the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Adderley) renewed the subject at a future opportunity, he should be prepared to show that the military views which he had expressed were utterly incorrect. He fully approved of the abandonment of the Orange River Sovereignty.
MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, he by no means shared in the opinion that this was the last Vote which that House would be called on to grant for a Kafir war. He believed that more territory must be ceded, and the Colony contracted into more defensible limits, before they could venture to indulge in the hope of a permanent peace there.
Vote agreed to. House resumed.

RUSSIA AND THE PORTE—QUESTION.
SIR JOSHUA WALMSLEY: Sir, I have to put a question to the noble Lord the Member for London, upon a subject which is deeply interesting to the people of this country generally, but more especially to the mercantile classes, and which, I believe, also very nearly concerns the dignity and the responsibility of every Member of this House. The question I have to ask of the noble Lord is, whether Her Majesty's Government will, previously to the prorogation of Parliament, submit to the House of Commons a statement of the existing relations between this country, Turkey, and Russia, touching the aggressive attitude assumed by Russia towards the Sublime Porte, and whether they will appropriate a day for the expression of the opinion of this House upon this important subject?
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the hon. Gentleman, I have to state, with respect to his first question, that before the prorogation of Parliament, I will give such information on the subject of the existing relations between Russia and Turkey as I may think consistent with my sense of public duty. In answer to the second question of the hon. Member, I cannot say that I think it would be advisable for the public interest that in the present state of the negotiations between Russia and Turkey, there should be any day devoted to a general discussion of that subject.
LORD DUDLEY STUART: Sir, a rumour of the most important character has been circulated in the public prints of to day. I allude to the rumour that the Emperor of Russia has agreed to certain proposals which have been submitted to him by the different Powers of Europe for

1463
the adjustment of the differences between Russia and Turkey. I wish to ask whether the noble Lord can state that there is any truth in that rumour, and that we are now nearer to a pacific solution of that question than we were a few days ago?
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: In answer to the question of my noble Friend, I have to state that there is a foundation for the rumour to which he has alluded, and that we have just received a despatch from Her Majesty's Minister at Vienna, which is of a satisfactory nature. The answer which has been received from the Court of St. Petersburgh is in reply to the first proposal which was agreed to at Vienna. I have further to state that the messenger who was to have gone to Constantinople, and who, as I said on a former occasion, would leave Vienna on the 31st of July, did not actually leave Vienna until the 2nd of August; so that the reply from Constantinople cannot be received as soon as it was at first expected.
SIR DE LACY EVANS: Will the noble Lord communicate the promised information at such a time as will enable the House to discuss the question?
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I beg to explain that what I said was, that I would give such information as it would be in my power to give consistently with my sense of public duty; and I think that it will be more satisfactory that I should give that information at the latest moment before the prorogation of Parliament.
MR. LAYARD: Am I to understand that there will be a discussion of the question before the prorogation?
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: As far as the Government are concerned, it is not their opinion that it is desirable, under existing circumstances, there should be a discussion.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—RECOVERY OF PERSONAL LIBERTY BILL.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLmoved that on Wednesday next the Government Orders of the Day should have precedence until three o'clock.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the Government Orders of the Day have precedence on Wednesday next till Three o'clock."
MR. BOUVERIEsaid, he thought it would be better that the Government Orders should have precedence throughout the whole of the day, and that the words "until three o'clock" should be omitted from the Motion.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "till Three o'clock."
MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that it was impossible to mistake the intention and object of the Motion made by the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), when the House considered the nature of the notice which stood first for Wednesday next, that was, the Recovery of Personal Liberty Bill, second reading, upon which an Amendment had virtually been adopted by the House for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the system and practices of Conventual Establishments. The noble Lord and the Government had been in a minority on that subject on the 22nd of July, and the object of the noble Lord was to render the ratification of the decision of the House in favour of an inquiry into convents impossible; the noble Lord, in fact, brought the weight of the official votes, which were at the command of the Government, to destroy the last remnant of sphere for independent action, which remained to the House. For the House had, at the instance of the Government, yielded first Thursdays to Government business, had then consented to morning sittings, then, on other days of the week, to the exclusion of Members engaged on Committees upstairs, and had at last yielded Tuesdays also, until the only days of the week which remained for the business introduced by independent Members were Wednesdays, the morning sittings on which were limited to terminate at six o'clock. The noble Lord now proposed to take away half the six hours in the week which remained for the discussion and decision of measures introduced by Members not of the Government. The noble Lord's proposal was merely limited to the first three hours, in order to conceal the fact that he intended to abrogate the last remaining opportunity for independent action on the part of the House. He (Mr. Newdegate) therefore preferred the more manly and direct abnegation of the right of independent Members, proposed by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Bouverie), and upon that as raising the true issue would take the sense of the House. The noble Lord was perfectly aware of the difficulties with which those who desired a solution of this question, by a decision of the House, had to contend. Those who took an interest in a question which stood first on the Orders for Wednesday, were seeking, as the noble Lord was perfectly aware, merely to terminate the discussion on that question by a fair debate, and to enable the House

1465
to record its opinion distinctly, as he (Mr. Newdegate) had reason to hope, in favour of an inquiry into conventual establishments. A party which adopted practices at variance with the efficient action of Parliament had told them that they were to be defeated by delay. That was a party organised in such a manner (he meant the party called the Irish Brigade) as constituted them, though in the House, scarcely a part of the House; who aimed at commanding the House by an obstructive minority. They might create delay, but with a fair six hours before them, it must become obvious to the country, after three previous discussions on this subject, that the delay they would practise would be simply an attempt to defeat the legitimate action of Parliament, and such conduct would meet with just reprobation. The House could spare the time to test this issue, for on Friday last there were forty-two Bills before the House of Lords; there were thirty-one on their way to it; and all that was asked was, that during the leisure which the House of Commons had shown it had when it had decided on having a holiday on Thursday, the discussion on a question which had stood long on the Votes should be brought fairly to an end. If the proposal of the noble Lord were adopted, the debate, which by courtesy he (Mr. Newdegate) ought to open, would be again interrupted, as it had been before. Seeing, therefore, that the noble Lord was determined to deprive the House of all independent action, he would divide the House on the issue as raised by the Amendment.
MR. T. CHAMBERSsaid, there would be less difficulty in acceding to the proposal of the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), if he would afford facilities for the termination of that discussion on some other day. An hon. Member, who, like him, had brought before the House a question of that character, had serious responsibility imposed upon him, and could not consent to the indefinite postponement of the decision of the House with respect to it.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he would readily agree to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Bouverie), especially after the statement of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate), so that Government orders should take precedence during the whole of Wednesday.
MR. NEWDEGATEpreferred the Amendment, merely because it was more direct than the Motion.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLthought it a
1466
sufficient reason for taking the Bills brought forward by the Government, and others which might require consideration with a view to their being passed, that this was the month of August. It was the only chance of seeing those Bills carried into law with a satisfactory result. He supported the Motion, that the question relating to Nunneries should come to a fair decision; but the House decided by a majority that the question as to reading that Bill a second time should not be Confirmed. The real question, then, was not as to that Bill, which had been completely set aside, but as to the appointment of a Select Committee; and he put it to the House whether there was any use in going into that question at this time of the year? It might be advisable that the House should come to a decision on a question of importance which had been brought before it, and that they should not allow their time to be wasted by long debates, so that no decision could be arrived at; but if they were to make a struggle for that purpose, he thought again that it ought not to be wade in the month of August. There was no chance of success in that struggle, even if they took the whole of Wednesday; and for that reason he should advise the hon. Gentleman (Mr. T. Chambers) to make the attempt, if he wished to try it, in February, and not in August.
MR. SPOONERsaid, he agreed with his hon. Friend and Colleague (Mr. Newdegate) that, if there was to be an alteraation with respect to the order of business on Wednesday, he should prefer having the subject of Nunneries wholly postponed. If hon. Members were animated with the spirit which ought to actuate all of them—namely, a desire not to create delay, but to discuss the subject fairly, they might bring the debate to a conclusion on Wednesday. The noble Lord took credit to himself for having voted in favour of the proposition of the hon. and learned Member for Hertford, and cast blame on the Opposition. The noble Lord's memory, he apprehended, was at fault.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he must explain that what he had said was, that he wished a fair decision—not that he voted for the proposition of the hon. and learned Gentleman.
MR. SPOONERsaid, he thought the Motion nothing but an attempt on the part of the noble Lord to put an end to a discussion which he dared not meet, but which the country demanded. The noble Lord, in the Charitable Trusts Bill, had ex-

1467
empted Homan Catholics from inquiry into their charities; and now he said there should be no inquiry into their nunneries. Those were acts quite in accordance with the spirit which the noble Lord had shown of late—the disposition to aid and abet those whom he ought to control. They were acts which were totally inconsistent with the well-timed and well-written letter called "the Durham Letter." The public ought to know at least who wished to have inquiry, and who wished to stop inquiry. He hoped his hon. Friend would divide the House to show who were sincerely desirous to have inquiry.
MR. HUMEsaid, he very much doubted the sincerity of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. Was it fair on almost the last day of the Session to urge a renewal of the discussion on this Bill? What he (Mr. Hume) should desire in the situation of the hon. Gentleman would be, that a full and fair inquiry should be made. The time for discussion would be when that inquiry was moved for.
MR. HUTTsaid, he also doubted the sincerity of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner), who spoke of discussing the subject at the very time when country Gentlemen and independent Gentlemen were leaving the House.
MR. LUCASsaid, he could not allow the impression to go forth, that hon. Members at his part of the House shrunk from the discussion of this subject. So far from being unwilling, he was anxious to discus it, and he would tell the House the reason why, personally, he was anxious to discus the question. He was anxious to call the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) to account for certain statements which the hon. Gentleman made on former occasions when he (Mr. Lucas) had not an opportunity of answering. If he did not think it most absurd that the House should spend next Wednesday in a discussion which could end in nothing, he should wish to have a discussion. It would be affectation in him not to understand the allusion to a party of whom the hon. Gentleman spoke as being banded together, and as acting contrary to Parliamentary precedent. He (Mr. Lucas) was sure that the party with which he was connected has not conducted itself in a manner inconsistent with Parliamentary usage or practice. If the hon. Gentleman alleged an intention of talking this question out, the noble Lord had given an answer by reference to a discussion in a previous Session,
1468
when an example was set from the Opposition side of the House. Had the hon. Member been in the house when the Edinburgh Annuity Tax Bill was brought forward, he would have seen that it was "talked out." That was done from the Opposition side, with a distinctly avowed intention, known to every Member at the time, of not allowing the House to come to a division on the subject. He (Mr. Lucas) should be the last person to take any unfair advantage of the forms of the House to produce an unfair result. He confidently appealed on that point to any Gentleman who paid any attention to the course he had taken since he had entered the House. To proceed at an early period of the Session, when it was possible not only that a division might be arrived at, but that some result might be drawn from that division, and, if the House were to appoint a Committee, the Committee could enter into and conclude an inquiry, was a very different thing from dealing with a Motion made at this time of the Session, when a decision for the appointment of a Committee would only have, as respected the convents, the result of an adverse decision, without there being any possibility if inquiry, and would therefore only give a false colour to the Motion of such inquiry.
MR. NEWDEGATEbegged to explain that the allusion he had made to a party which had a peculiar organisation, and was confirmed by a speech made in Ireland by the hon. Member for Mayo. [And was proceeding, when cries of "Order!" and "Chair!" were raised from the Ministerial benches, and Mr. Speaker interfered.] The hon. Member begged to intimate that he had proceeded on statements made by the hon. Member for Mayo, and Dr. M'Hale, at a dinner, in Ireland, which speeches he had quoted to the House on a former occasion in the presence of the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. G. H. Moore), a well-known member of the Brigade, who had never impugned the correctness of the report he (Mr. Newdegate) had read to the House; that report of the hon. Member's speech gave the description of the party to which he had alluded, and of that party the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Lucas) was a member. He begged to refer the hon. Member to that report as his explanation of the allusion which he (Mr. Newdegate) had made when he addressed the House.
MR. BOUVERIEsaid, he held very strong views on this question himself. The practical question, however, was, what was

1469
the use of spending Wednesday, the 10th of August, in a discussion that would lead to no practical result?
MR. MAGUIREsaid, that no Catholic Member would shrink from a discussion when so many monstrous assertions had been made by hon. Members who had been led away by their imaginations.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.
Main Question, as amended, put.
The House divided:—Ayes 105; Noes 52: Majority 53.
Resolved—"That Government Orders of the Day have precedence on Wednesday next."

RUSSIA AND THE PORTE—QUESTION.
On the Order of the Day for going into Committee of Supply,
MR. DISRAELIsaid: Sir, I take this opportunity of making an inquiry of Her Majesty's Government with respect to a question which I understand has been adverted to in an earlier part of the evening, namely, to the account that has been received of the acceptance by the Emperor of Russia of certain propositions which were presented to him by what I may call the Congress of the Great Powers, which has been sitting at Vienna. I understand that the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) holds out no prospect to the House of the papers being laid upon the table, or of any day being appointed for a discussion upon this important subject. And considering the month, and the date of the month, I am not at all surprised that the noble Lord indulged in these observations. But what I wish to know from Her Majesty's Government is, considering, the peculiar circumstances of this case, whether the noble Lord has any objection to state to the House the nature of those propositions which, we understand, have been accepted by the Emperor Of Russia?
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: Sir, I cannot at present state the propositions which have been made to the Emperor of Russia. I have already stated, in answer to a question, that before the prorogation of Parliament I will give all the information which it is consistent with duty to afford. What that information may be, of course I will not anticipate; but I will certainly state to the House as much as it will be in my power to state with a view to the public interest.

SUPPLY—MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
(1.) 407,667 l., Government Prisons and Convict Establishments at Home.
MR. HUMEsaid, he wished to know whether there was about to be introduced any general plan of secondary punishment, for he had not yet heard of any plan whatever being about to be proposed? He found in the Estimates a charge of nearly 1,500,000 l. for law expenses and prosecutions connected with our Courts, and when he considered the state in which criminals in this country had been left since the abolition of transportation, he certainly thought that some general plan of secondary punishments would have been submitted to that House. He did not know whether any inquiry had been instituted into a matter which was so important to the social condition of the country; but he looked with great regret at the alarming increase of crime, and at the utter impossibility, so far as he saw, of diminishing it. He had always been an advocate of transportation as affording the best chance of reformation in these cases, and he very much doubted whether the recent experiments which had been made upon the criminal population had come up to the sanguine expectations of the noble Lord the Member for London and others. He knew that the expense of those experiments was very great, and that very little had yet been done. The only remedy which he could see was to provide a more extended system of education for the great masses of the community.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he thought that it would be much better to defer any discussion upon this subject until the second reading of the Transportation Bill, which would come on to-morrow. Whatever plan might be adopted, must depend very much upon the change of circumstances from time to time. The alteration with respect to transportation had been in a great measure owing to the present State of the colonies, and the strong feeling that existed there upon the subject.
Vote agreed to.
(2.) 478.740 l., Militia.
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, that perhaps he should best consult the convenience of the Committee at that late period of the Session if he addressed to them a very few observations in proposing this Vote for the Militia. The number of men that was now enrolled, as far as could be judged from the last returns, was about

1471
62,000. The whole amount that had been taken upon this estimate was larger; but as the force was now before them for the first time, it had been necessary to make allowance for all contingencies, and an ample margin had therefore been allowed. He should, perhaps, also call the attention of the Committee to the fact that the whole of this amount was not for raising and training the militia, but that there had to be deducted about 100,000 l. for the old staff of militia and non-effectives who were annually dying off. He must take that opportunity of congratulating the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Walpole) upon the success which had attended this measure hitherto. It had certainly fully justified his expectations. The efficiency of the regiments had been borne testimony to by the most competent officers, who had inspected them, and who had expressed their surprise at the degree of efficiency to which they had attained in the short period they had been embodied. What was more important, perhaps, was the universal good conduct which had characterised these men, when it might, perhaps, have been expected that the congregating of such large bodies of men of such an age might have produced some disturbance. In every part of the country, however, the civil authorities had borne testimony to the excellent conduct of the men forming the militia. He wished also to express, on the part of the Government, their thanks for the great interest which had been taken in raisin men by the colonels and other officers of those regiments, and for the attention ant diligence which they had bestowed upon their duties, which had led to such beneficial and satisfactory results.
COLONEL SIBTHORP, as one who had the honour of commanding a regiment of militia, begged to express the gratification with which he had listened to the high terms of commendation in which the right hon. Gentleman had spoken of that body generally. He should suggest, however that a second period of training should be allowed, being convinced that both the men themselves and the majority of the civil population also would be favourable to such a step.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, he wished to ask whether it was the intention of the Government to fill up the numbers of the militia to 80,000, as fixed by the Act of last Session, because Ministers had said that they did not want to raise any more men than
1472
was absolutely necessary. Now, the Committee would doubtless remember, that last year there were very alarming rumours spread abroad in the country, and in that House, with the view of persuading the Legislature to re-establish the militia; and the noble Lord who now filled the office of Home Secretary even went the length of saying that he thought it probable that 60,000 Frenchmen might some night be landed on the shores of Great Britain, and, therefore, it was very necessary that 80,000 militia should be embodied to oppose them. Now, the friends of peace had stedfastly maintained the emptiness of these apprehensions; and he thought that subsequent events had shown that they were not the party who were wrong in their anticipation of the events about to take place. He understood even that a Member of the Government of the noble Lord, who was not now in his place, had fixed precisely the time—it was to be within three months—at which this dreaded event was to come off. Upon statements such as that to which he alluded, great preparations had been made; the militia had been embodied, additional votes of men had been passed, and large expenses incurred, but for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have been enabled to make his valuable Budget more valuable still, by the remissions of taxes. As, however, instead of those alarms having proved to be well founded, he understood that Admiral Dundas had received the French officers on board of his ship, and that he himself and the English officers had been entertained at dinner on board of the French ships, and that they had drunk the health of Queen Victoria and of Louis Napoleon, Emperor of the French, with so much cheering that it was difficult to hear the artillery. He wanted to know, under these circumstances—when the two nations were on such friendly terms, and when with respect to another matter in dispute there seemed a probability of no war arising out of it—whether Government considered it necessary to go on increasing the militia force, and to fill it up to the whole complement. Having got over the panic of last year, and discovered that we had made fools of ourselves, we might now venture to let the wave subside, and the country might, perhaps, feel itself sufficiently secure to allow this portion of our force to fall into decay, as it did before; by which the expense of its maintenance would be

1473
saved. It was said that the militiamen made very fair soldiers after twenty-one or twenty-eight day's training. [Colonel SIBTHORP: Hear, hear!] He was not going to dispute it, because he was not a judge. [Colonel SIBTHORP: No!] But if men could be made fair soldiers in so short a time, it would not be necessary to take them for years before you required their services. The noble Lord the Member for Tiverton (Viscount Palmerston) had turned out to have been wrong as regarded last year; he might be wrong also as regarded the future, and 60,000 invaders might not come over at all; so that the constant expenditure of 400,000 l. or 500,000 l. a year might be avoided. Unless they were certain that this expenditure was absolutely required, and this force absolutely necessary, they would fail in their duty to the country if they voted it; and, for his part, he did not hesitate to say that he regarded the whole matter as an imposture, got up in order that the public might be deceived and robbed. The only result was to diminish the power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to remit taxes; and there was a far greater probability of the evils of war when nations pursued the mad system of maintaining great rival armaments. He would, therefore, suggest that, in the present friendly state of our relations with France, seeing the right hon. President of the Board of Control no longer made speeches to his constituents at Halifax discreditable to himself and injurious to his country, it might be proper to make representations to the French Government before any long period elapsed, for the purpose of seeing whether both nations could not agree to reduce their armaments to some extent. It was not his intention to divide the Committee against this Vote; but he was so convinced of the folly of the course pursued by our statesmen upon this subject, that he took this the first opportunity of the Session of raising his voice against it.
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he should offer but a few words in answer to the observations of the hon. Member. In the first place, with reference to the remark of the hon. Member that a militiaman could be trained into a good soldier in twenty-one days, he begged to say that he had every disposition to give credit to the militia force; but the Committee must not imagine that at the end of that short period the militia would be in as effective a state as the army. They were trained, no doubt,
1474
more rapidly than the army, because men coming to the task in the way they did took a greater pleasure in it, and devoted themselves to it with greater zeal than regular soldiers could be expected to do. The hon. Gentleman had asked him whether he intended to raise the 80,000 men which the Act permitted them to raise? In reply to that question he begged to say, that deducting the non-effective part of the service, he believed that, in all probability, there would be raised about 74,000 or 75,000 men, if the enlistment continued to go on as rapidly as it did at present. He certainly was not prepared to assent to the doctrine of the hon. Gentleman, that because there were indications of familiarities between two nations—that, however much good feeling there might be apparent between them—and he sincerely trusted that in the present case the good feeling might long continue—their armaments should be changed and altered up and down according to these indications. Besides, he begged to remind the hon. Member, that a certain amount of force must be presented to that House by the Government on their own responsibility, as that which they considered necessary for the general security of the country. The House had assented to the propositions of Government on this head, and voted the amount of force proposed. He would only observe that the expense would not be much diminished by disbanding the militia, because they had engaged to make for five years an annual payment of 1l. for bounty, and of course the whole payment must be made. He admitted that the original estimate of the expense of the force might have been exceeded in some degree in consequence of the period of training having been extended from twenty-one to twenty-eight days, and in consequence, also, of some few items which were not foreseen when the plan was first mooted. The number of men voted last year was 50,000; it was now proposed to vote an additional 25,000, making in all 75,000.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, the vote was 100,000 l. more than last year, and it would, he supposed, be more next year, so that 200,000 l. would be added to the expenditure. Was it intended to fill up the number of men to 80,000 this year?
MR. SYDNEY HERBERTsaid, the number to be raised last year was 50,000, and this year 30,000. It was only proposed to raise 25,000 this year.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, that there was no

1475
sufficient reason for the number of men which had been raised, and still less for adding to the number, for the reasons on which the arguments in favour of a militia last year were founded had passed away, and there were no valid reasons for such an expenditure.
COLONEL SIBTHORPwould tell the hon. Member for Manchester that he recollected his Delectus at School—cuilibet in sua arte credendum est. He should not expect the hon. Member to be a very efficient soldier, nor would he be extremely anxious to have him in his corps. The hon. Member might, perhaps, possess intelligence enough to know that prevention was better than cure, and he did not hesitate to say, attached as he was to this country, that he wished the French had made an attempt to come here, and that he had had the happiness of being one of those down at the coast to meet them. They would very soon have been glad to go back, and would have got a lesson that he thought they never would have forgotten, for he believed they would never have attempted to put their fingers in the fire again. He did not know where the hon. Member would have been on such an occasion, but he should certainly have made inquiry as to his whereabouts. The militia were not only liable to be called upon in case of an attempt at invasion, but they were very necessary to keep Manchester, and similar places, in good order. Their services would be found useful should any domestic disturbances arise; and the hon. Member ought to know that the French might have a disposition both to invade and to revolutionise this country.
SIR JOHN DUCKWORTHsaid, he could bear testimony both to the efficiency of the militia as soldiers, and to their good conduct in quarters. He would suggest that it would be a great improvement to have them placed in barracks, instead of being billeted on the publicans, for not only was it advantageous to a regiment to be kept together in barracks, but the publicans would thus be relieved from expense and inconvenience, for which they did not receive adequate compensation as matters now stood.
MR. HUMEsaid, he considered the alarm of last year to have been utterly unfounded, and was still of opinion that we were wasting the public resources, instead of proceeding to relieve them of every burden which could be removed. The military mania now abroad would cost the country very nearly 1,000,000 l. The irrational
1476
panic that prevailed had now subsided, and we enjoyed the friendship of the French nation. He was of opinion that one of the best things that could be done, by way of showing our confidence in their ruler, would be to reduce our forces. Including disembodied officers, there were not less than 91,819 persons connected with the militia.
MR. WALPOLEsaid, he would beg to remind the hon. Members for Montrose and Manchester, that when this measure was brought forward by the late Government it was distinctly stated that it was not proposed in consequence of any apprehension of hostile proceedings on the part of any other country. He (Mr. Walpole) then said, that the measure had been propounded by the late Sir Robert Peel's Government, and by the Government of the noble Lord opposite; and it had been urged upon the consideration of Administration after Administration, by those who were most competent to form a judgment upon such matters, that it would be wise and judicious to establish for the permanent defence of the country some such force as that which had last year been sanctioned by Parliament. He thought, then, that the Legislature had not taken a false step on this subject, and that it would be most injudicious to disband the militia force, especially after the testimony which had been borne, not merely to its popularity, but also to the admirable conduct of the men, and to the great efficiency they had attained, after a very short period of training. He wished to take this opportunity of expressing his opinion that the successful working of the measure was attributable in a great degree to the assistance afforded to the Government in carrying it out by the noblemen and gentlemen in the various counties, to whom the country was under great obligation.
MR. HUMEsaid, he would have placed his opinion on record by going to a division, had he not been aware that public feeling was in favour of the measure. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Walpole) seemed to forget the addition made to our naval force, which had been augmented by 10,000 seamen. We had now 380,000 troops in arms, or ready to be called out, which, in proportion to the population, was a larger military force than that of France.
MR. VERNON SMITHbegged to ask whether the system which prevailed under the old Act of making mere complimentary colonelships, by giving the commissions to

1477
gentlemen of the county, was to be continued in the present time? He hoped not; for the great point was to make the corps efficient. If the old system went on, then you would find some noble Lord or Gentleman being at the same time colonel of a regiment of yeomanry and a regiment of militia; and what was then to be done if a war broke out?
SIR JOHN SHELLEYsaid, he would also inquire, at the same time, whether the old system would be continued of allowing officers who were abroad to hold militia commissions?
MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, the attention of the Secretary of State for the Home Department had been called to the circumstance that persons employed in the colonial service also held commissions in the militia. There were not many cases of that nature, but the noble Lord had insisted that all persons who were permanently employed in the Colonies should resign their commissions in the militia. In future, also, lieutenant colonels commandant, instead of full colonels, would be appointed to militia regiments; so that, if the militia should be stationed in a garrison town where there were troops of the line, the command of the whole force would be taken by the officer Commanding the regular troops, who would probably be superior in rank to the lieutenant colonel of the militia.
Vote agreed to.
House resumed.

THE MALT DUTIES.
Order of the Day for going into Committee of Ways and Means read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
MR. E. BALLrose to bring forward the Motion of which he had given notice. On a former occasion, when he had brought forward a similar Motion, and was near carrying it, the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had glided like a spectre into the House, and while delivering himself of a long speech sent his scouts out about town; and having collected such a number of his supporters as showed him that he must be successful, had succeeded in defeating the Motion by a small majority. He (Mr. Ball), though he had not been fully heard on that occasion, did not think that he should have brought the subject forward again, had it not been that he had been informed by influential persons that the Ministers had been un-
1478
happy at having been deprived of his speech; and that being so, he thought him self bound to give it to them on the first opportunity. He was the more disposed to do this, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer had answered arguments he had never used, and had utterly misunderstood the whole case. The peculiar aptitude of the right hon. Gentleman in this respect was pretty well known; but he (Mr. Ball) had not been prepared to find him supposing that the Motion was for the repeal of the malt tax, and the abolition of 5,000,000 l. of revenue. He had no such intention; what he had asked was that some small relaxation of the malt duty should be granted to the producers of malt. This was a demand just and reasonable in its nature, and which, while it would prove a great boon to the agriculturist, would be in a very slight degree detrimental to the revenue. It would realise the old adage, "giving is getting," and by conceding it the Chancellor of the Exchequer would ultimately benefit the revenue, while he increased the resources of the country and the means of supporting the people. He could cite the authority of eminent statesmen who had declared their opinion that, in consequence of the ruin of the Protectionists by admitting foreign corn producers to compete with them, the malt tax ought to be abandoned. He did not, however, ask that, but he thought a modification of the tax should be made, which would cheapen the production of meat. The corn laws had been abolished, and it would have been fair to urge that the malt tax ought to be abolished also. But the repeal of the malt tax was not the present proposition. The case laid before Parliament was this: Provisions of all kinds were dear. Allow the agriculturists the means of making them cheaper. Meat was dear; let malt, then, be cheap. The English grazier had to contend with the foreigner, who grew his grain and dealt with it as he pleased, applying it to the feeding of his cattle, anti thus bringing them into the market cheaper than the English farmer could, who was restricted in the use of the grain he grew. What was asked, then, was, that the English farmer might be permitted to use malt in the feeding of his cattle, and thus be enabled to produce meat as cheaply as he could. It was an immense advantage to the foreign farmer that he could prepare and apply his barley as he found best. Allow the English farmer a similar advantage. It was a great griev-

1479
ance that he was actually not allowed to use his barley, made into malt, freely in the fattening of his live stock, though it was found that it was the food best fitted for the purpose. This he could not do without first paying a duty of 100 per cent upon it. It was not fair to the consumer, while it was peculiarly unfair to the producer. It was an injustice which could not be tolerated as consistent with the principles of free trade. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that experiments had been tried which convinced him that the farmer would derive no benefit from the boon demanded. But he trusted he might be permitted to say that the farmer was the best judge of that, and might be allowed to know how he could best produce meat cheaply. And there was this great inconvenience—that inferior barley, not fitted to be made into malt for the purposes of brewing, might be very well made into malt for the feeding of cattle, but could be not be so used, and this was practically often lost to the farmer. It was important, also, with a view to this question, to consider the present position of labour. Ordinarily there was a redundancy of labour, but now the reverse was the case. Strikes were taking place everywhere, and there was a deficiency of labour, and no class of labourers were more depressed and worked harder than the agricultural labourer. It was desirable, therefore, to mitigate the hardship of his position by allowing the agriculturists to produce food as cheaply as they could. Let the farmers be enable encouraged to produce good beer for their labourers, that they might recruit their exhausted strength with a more wholesome beverage than they could procure at the public-houses, where they were seduced into drunkenness, which exposed them to physical and moral destruction. The highest moral considerations should lead the Legislature to encourage the farmer to brew good and cheap beer. All the English farmer claimed was that under free trade he should be as free as the foreigner was, and be allowed to find the best and fittest food he could for his cattle, in order that he might in his own markets be able to compete with the foreigner. The result of this would necessarily be to cheapen meat and beer, and promote their consumption. It was most desirable to do this, for there was certainly scarcity in every article of provision; and there was every prospect of a deficient harvest, bad in quantity and quality—in
1480
addition to which we had hardly any corn in granary, for it was one of the results of the repeal of the corn laws that whereas we formerly had usually 2,000,000 l. or 3,000,000 l. of quarters of corn in store, we now had none laid up against the evil day. Then as to cattle and sheep, the supply was smaller than ever. There was a deficiency in animal as well as cereal produce. This was the present result of the vast experiment that had been tried, the ultimate issue of which no one could predict; and under such circumstances surely it would be wise to allow the agricultural producer to use his crops and raise his cattle as well as he could, and thus promote plenty and cheapness of provisions, and tend to banish discontent and distress from the land.
MR. SPOONERseconded the Motion.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out fron the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'in the opinion of this House, the Duty on Malt operates most injuriously to the community at large; that it greatly tends to increase the cost of animal and cereal food; that it promotes drunkenness, by withholding Beer from the labourer in his work, and driving him to the public-house; and that therefore it is expedient that the Excise regulations relative to Malt be relaxed,' instead thereof."
MR. CAYLEYsaid, he entirely concurred in the speech of the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, and considering it, as he did, utterly unanswerable, he advised the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to attempt to answer it, for it would be difficult for him to do so, and it would be wiser for the right hon. Gentleman to promise to take the subject into serious consideration previous to the next Session. The importance of doing something with the malt duties ought to obtain the relief suggested.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that he had not the slightest intention of endeavouring to answer the speech of the hon. Gentleman, for this, amongst other reasons—that it was answered by anticipation. The hon. Gentleman was well aware that what he had to say on the subject was offered to the House on a former occasion; and although he certainly thought it was in general bad taste in a Member of that House to praise his own speeches, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could not help saying that he had every reason to be satisfied with the result of the speech that he addressed to the House on that occasion. The hon. Gentleman had himself admitted that while

1481
a division before that speech would have terminated in his favour, such were the irresistible arguments which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) then adduced, that by the time he closed there was a majority against the Motion of the hon. Gentleman. Under these circumstances he felt it altogether unnecessary to enter upon the discussion of the question on the present occasion. He would, however, promise to give to the question that consideration which had been asked by the hon. Member for the North Riding of Yorkshire (Mr. Cayley).
MR. SPOONERsaid, he must reprobate the jocose way in which the right hon. Gentleman spoke on the subject, and would recommend him to recollect that it was not the force of his reasoning which had secured his success on the occasion referred to, but the number of his supporters, who had given him a majority against reasoning and against justice and good sense. The right hon. Gentleman had alluded to the "experiments" which had been tried under the auspices of the Government; but they were of the most absurd character. A couple of philosophers had conducted them, and having taken a couple of heifers just calved and full of milk, had tied them up by the neck and fed them on dry malt. Why, of course, that was not the sort of experiment likely to succeed. But practical men had found by experience that under proper management malt was the best food for fattening cattle. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been led to an opposite conclusion, all he could say was, that he had been grossly misled. It was of the utmost importance in more points of view than one, that the agriculturist should be allowed to use the produce of his farm for the purposes of production as he thought best. Would the manufacturers submit to be fettered by the Excise as to the raw material they used? By malting inferior barley into food for cattle, it would be made profitable, when, otherwise, probably it would be lost to the farmer, and this was a consideration of the more importance at the present period, when the supply of barley was likely to be large in quantity, but to a great extent inferior in quality. In a moral point of view, the proposed measure was important, because it would tend to draw the labourer from the beershops by enabling the farmer to brew good beer for his labourers. Under all the circumstances, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had consented to consider
1482
the subject, he would suggest to the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire not to divide the House, but to rest satisfied with having explained his case and secured this promise.
SIR JOHN SHELLEYsaid, on a former occasion the Chancellor of the Exchequer had certainly with success spoken against time and secured a majority; but, as to his arguments, they were fallacious, because founded on the worthless experiments of the "philosophers" who had taken two couple of heifers, two of whom were diseased. Could anything be more absurd? If the right hon. Gentleman really wished to get at the truth, he would have better experiments tried, and would particularly see that the effect of malt was tried on sheep. As a practical man, he (Sir J. Shelley) could assure him that he had been grossly deceived into imagining that the question was of no importance to the farmer.
MR. E. BALLsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had wisely avoided attempting to meet his arguments, knowing their weight. Acting upon the advice of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) he should not divide the House.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Ways and Means considered in Committee.
Resolved—
"That, towards making good the supply granted to Her Majesty, the sum of 10,634,087 l. 2s. 4d. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland."
Resolved—
"That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there be issued and applied to the service of the year 1853, the sum of 355,143 l. 4s. 8d. being the Surplus of Ways and Means granted for the service of preceding years."

CUSTOMS BILL.
Order for Committee read.
House in Committee.
Clause 1.
MR. APSLEY PELLATTsaid, he wished to call attention to the condition of the inferior officers in the Customs, and the impossibility of their obtaining promotion, and would beg to move the following Amendment:—
"That no persons who have not undergone a long training in the lower classes, such as weigher, locker, or superintendent locker, shall be eligible

1483
for the office of landing waiter or gauger; that all vacancies in these departments be filled by well-qualified and experienced officers only."
Early in the Session the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury promised that the object which he (Mr. Pellatt) was anxious to see accomplished would be attained by the regulations to be adopted by the Treasury, but there was nothing in the Bill which even alluded to it. He therefore trusted the Committee would affirm the principle he was contending for, and adopt the Amendment he had proposed.
MR. W. BROWNsaid, in seconding the Amendment of the hon. Member for Southwark, he begged to express the great satisfaction which he felt at the provisions of the Bill, which consolidated the Customs law, and abrogated a great many Acts of Parliament that served only to impede and embarrass mercantile men. A doubt had been expressed that the judicial hearing of disputes between merchants and the Boar of Customs would not be with open doors; but he had no such fears. He believed that the Courts would be opened to the public and to the reporters for the public press.
MR. J. WILSONsaid, he completely concurred in the views of the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Pellatt), who however, seemed not to be aware that the regulations which he was anxious to have adopted were the subjects of a Treasury Minute, and not of an Act of Parliament. There was no attempt by this Bill to make any special regulations or arrangements. General powers only were given to the Commissioners to employ such persons a they should think fit. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that the promise he made at the early part of the Session was being complied with to the letter.
MR. MITCHELLsaid, he must complain that the examinations of the higher and lower classes of officers were too much alike. It was true that one class were required to read and write, while the others were required to read and write well; but practically this distinction was without a difference. He should suggest also the inadvisability of making the general appointment of landing waiter at twenty-one years of age. The system now adopted at the public docks was a better one. These young men were received at the age of seventeen, and if they went through their duties for three or four years with the approval of their employers, they were at the age of twenty-one made clerks. If
1484
on the other hand they showed no aptitude, they were left to some inferior appointment.
MR. HORSFALLsaid, although the Bill he held in his hand contained 355 clauses, little need be said by him beyond thanking I the Government, and especially the hon. Secretary to the Treasury, for the large measure of relief the Bill afforded to the commercial community of this country. He was happy to think that, ever since the accession of the present Chairman of the Board of Customs, means had been used for gradually improving the regulations of that Board, and he looked upon this Bill as one of the greatest boons ever conferred on a trading and commercial community. Not less than from 1,000 to 1,500 Acts of Parliament were either repealed or consolidated by this Bill. The object of the present Bill was to simplify the law, and that object had been happily accomplished. His constituents had gone through the whole of the clauses, and he rejoiced to say that it met with their hearty approval. With regard to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Southwark, he believed there was a disposition on the part of the Government to do justice to the officers. He wished, however, to offer one suggestion to the Government. He thought the Chairman, or one of the Commissioners of the Board of Customs, ought to have a seat in the House of Commons. If anything connected with foreign affairs occurred, the Secretary of State of that department was present to give explanations; if anything relating to the Home Department happened, even down to the case of a cabman, there was an opportunity of questioning the Home Secretary; and so in regard to our Colonies; but let the most important questions arise connected with the commerce of the country, and that great interest was found to be unrepresented in that House.
MR. J. WILSON, in reply to the hon. Member for Bridport (Mr. Mitchell), said that the hon. Member was under a misapprehension as to the examination of the different grades of Custom-house officers. If the lower grade could read and write their name, it was all that was required; but the upper class were examined in arithmetic as far as decimals, and were also required to be able to write correctly from dictation.
MR. APSLEY PELLATTsaid, he was satisfied with the explanations which had been made by the hon. Secretary to the

1485
Treasury, and would therefore withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment withdrawn.
Clause agreed to; as were the remaining clauses.
House resumed.
Bill reported as amended.

CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.
Order for Third Reading read.
MR. LUCASsaid, he wished to take that opportunity of saying that he thought that those who were interested in Catholic charities had committed a mistake in coming before the House on a former occasion, and claiming, or having the appearance of claiming, for those charities an exemption from the laws which ought to affect all classes of the community equally. He had a very great objection to taking any course which could have even the appearance of putting forward a claim to exceptional legislation on the part of the Catholics of this Empire. He believed that they had no interest in such exceptional legislation, and he believed that it would be a very great blunder in them to demand it, so far as their own interests were concerned, for it was their own true policy to stand on the ground of common right and common law. But with regard to this particular question, it happened, in fact, that Catholics were not demanding any exceptional legislation in their favour. He believed that the best course that could have been taken would have been to introduce into this Bill clauses which would have placed Catholic charities on a proper footing, and redressed the grievances of which they complained, instead of excepting them from the operation of the Bill. He considered that exception to be of very little value, and he should as soon see the Bill without it, though he was quite willing to acknowledge the readiness with which the noble Lord had introduced it. He (Mr. Lucas) was therefore disposed to move the introduction of a clause to carry out the object which he had in view; namely, the exempting them from disabilities on the ground of superstitious uses, and if it should be found to be impossible to insert it in the Bill, he hoped that the noble Lord would at least give some assurance, on which Catholics might rely, that every effort would be made next Session to place Catholic trusts on a satisfactory and firm basis.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he agreed with the hon. Member who had just sat down, that it would be very desirable to
1486
modify the law in respect to superstitious uses, in order that some of those practices which were now made illegal by the force of an Act of Parliament should be legalised and allowed; but he was afraid that any clause which could be proposed now would really be too late to effect that purpose. In the first place, many hon. Members were not present in the House now, who thought from the last discussion, that the course to be pursued in this respect had been agreed upon; and, in the second place, he did not think it would be possible in a short time to prepare clauses to effect the object which the hon. Gentleman had in view. He was quite sure that the clause which the hon. Member suggested, would, at all events, be very much opposed. He could not tell how much it might legalise that which the House would consider to be contrary to public policy, whether as regarded Roman Catholic or any other charities in the country. He would state, however, that it was the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill next Session, which might, in an unobjectionable manner, include Roman Catholic charities within the purview of this measure.
MR. HEADLAMsaid, he thought the right course would have been not to have introduced into the Bill, in the first instance, any clause for exemption for two years. The course which he intended to have taken was, first, to suggest clauses by which the change might have been made, and in the event of these clauses not being agreed to, then to propose such an exemption as had been agreed to for two years. However, when the Bill came on, and the noble Lord agreed to make an exemption for two years, he thought it not desirable to agitate the question further. For his own part, fully agreeing in the opinion that such a change ought to be made, he should be glad to assist in supporting clauses putting Roman Catholic charities on a legal footing.
MR. J. D. FITZGERALDsaid, he did not agree with his hon. Friend (Mr. Lucas), that the exemption clause ought not to have been inserted. He thought a protection of that kind was absolutely necessary. He heard, with great pleasure, the observations of the noble Lord on the subject, and begged to express the gratification he felt at the mode in which the noble Lord had given utterance to his sentiments. He did not wish that this Bill should not apply to Roman Catholic charities; he thought it ought, for he looked on the Bill as an

1487
excellent one; but there was reason, from a previous state of the law, why for a time protection should be thrown around them, but that protection was to enable the House to legislate, not for Roman Catholic charities alone, but on a broad basis for all charities. As the law at present stood, a bequest for the celebration of divine worship according to the rites of the Catholic religion would be void as coming under the law of superstitious uses. Again, under the 9 Geo. II., if they enrolled in the Court of Chancery a deed of trust for a Roman Catholic charity, the transaction was void, and they were consequently obliged in the deed to conceal the object of the charity. He believed he was not wrong in saying that the Mortmain Committee recommended a repeal of that Act of Parliament, and that the doctrine, for it was not a law, but a principle of Courts of Equity, of superstitious uses should be done away with.
MR. HADFIELDsaid, he hoped that within two years the law of Mortmain would be amended. At present it was a matter of the utmost difficulty, in some parts of the country, to settle property for benevolent purposes, such as infirmaries, schools, and the like. They could not take a lease for a term of years for building purposes, but they were obliged to resort to the subterfuge of having a nominee as lessee, who assigned to the trustees; and in regard to copyhold property, it was perfectly impracticable to make a title until Lord Tenterden's decision was overruled, because it could not be conveyed in the way that the Mortmain Act required. The noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) would render a greater support to education by removing these difficulties, than by a thousand Education Bills. If he would put the law in a form by which they could have facilities for establishing these institutions, they would have plenty of them in the country, and the law ought to be such as to apply equally to all.
Bill read 3°; Clauses added.
MR. HUTTsaid, he had an Amendment to move, the object of which was to enable the Commissioners to sit in Parliament, if elected, in the same manner as the Poor Law Commissioners.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 2, line 31, to leave out the words 'paid Commissioner,' and at the end of the Clause, to add, 'and such Commissioners to be appointed under this Act, as shall hold their office during good behaviour, shall be subject to
1488
the provisions of the 26th section of the seventh chapter of the Statutes made in the sixth year of the reign of Queen Anne.'"
MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, he must oppose the Amendment of the hon. Member for Gateshead, on the ground that if the Commissioners were eligible to seats in Parliament, they might be enabled to exercise undue influence in borough elections by means of the local charities.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, that he did not consider the case of the Chief Commissioners of the Poor Law Board being entitled to sit in that House as precisely analogous to these Commissioners, because the functions of the Commissioners under this Bill were partly judicial. Generally speaking, however, he was in favour of taking away the disqualifications with respect to persons sitting in that House; and he did not know that if they had had a full discussion of the matter when the Bill was in Committee, he might not have been induced to vote in favour of his hon. Friend's Amendment; but it ought to be recollected that the Bill went through Committee, and was reported without any special notice being taken of this point; and he did not think it would be just, after the Bill had passed through these stages, to make so important a change as that now proposed; and he certainly, therefore, could not consent, on the part of Government, to the Amendment.
MR. AGLIONBYsaid, he did not see what there was to prevent the noble Lord from taking the discussion upon the question then. He thought the matter should not be delayed, because, in his opinion, it would be of the greatest possible advantage that the Commissioners under this Bill should have seats in that House, and be able to state in the face of day, in answer to the inquiries of hon. Members, what had taken place on the Commission.
MR. WALPOLEsaid, the present Bill was one of the most important that had occupied the attention of the Legislature for some years. For himself he entirely approved of it, and he congratulated the noble Lord on at last finding out the means by which these public estates were to be placed upon a better system than heretofore. But in proportion to the importance of the Bill was the importance of considering who were to be the Commissioners, and whether or not they should have seats in that House. As to whom they were to be, that of course would rest with the Government, and no doubt the whole value of

1489
the measure would depend in a degree on the persons appointed. But the question whether the Commissioners should have seats in that House was even more important than that; and, in his opinion, it was highly desirable that they should be brought under the control of the public, and they could certainly not be under that control unless questions could be put to them in that House with reference to the matters entrusted to their charge. In one respect, however, the Motion of the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Hutt) went too far. He (Mr. Walpole) doubted very much whether all the Commissioners ought to have seats in Parliament. He thought they ought to have one Commissioner responsible for the duties of his office in that House; but he doubted if the appointment of three Commissioners with seats would be advantageous to the charities; and, more than that, he apprehended that it would be giving too much authority to the Government for the time being if that were the case.
MR. MALINSsaid, he should oppose the Amendment, believing that it was better that persons holding judicial offices should not have seats in that House.
SIR ROBERT H. INGLISsaid, he thought that the feeling of the House had already been sufficiently elicited to show the noble Lord the Member for London that the adoption of the proposition of the hon. Member for Gateshead, in a modified form, would be acceptable. He thought the object of the hon. Gentleman would be attained if he adopted the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Midhurst (Mr. Walpole).
MR. HUTTsaid, he was willing to modify his Amendment, so as to render only one of the three Commissioners eligible to a seat in that House; but he thought it should be remembered that, although he had originally proposed that all three should be eligible, it was not likely that more than one Commissioner would be actually elected.
MR. BONHAM-CARTERsaid, that one of the greatest decisions ever given in the memory of man upon a question of a charity had been recently delivered. In that case, a large charity, yielding upwards of 9,000 l. a year, and which had existed for seven centuries, had been shown to have been perverted from its original purpose, and the conduct of the trustees elicited the strongest comments from the Master of the Rolls. If there
1490
had been a Commissioner in that House responsible for such matters, he (Mr. Carter) considered that such a state of things could never have continued so long. He should support the Amendment. He was satisfied that reports made once a year were not sufficient to bring the abuses in the administration of charitable trusts under the eye of the public. The Under Secretary for the Home Department was so completely overdone with work that he could not be expected to undertake the duty of answering questions relating to the proceedings of the Charitable Trusts Commissioners; and he (Mr. Carter) thought it was highly injudicious to exclude from that House persons who could afford them the most ample information on the subject.
MR. J. BALLsaid, he considered that one of the Commissioners, at all events, might be allowed to sit in the House. He was most anxious to see all important Ministerial departments represented in that Assembly, for he believed that such representation afforded to the public the most effectual security for the careful and judicious management of public affairs.
MR. I. BUTTsaid, he should oppose the Amendment, because, as the Charitable Trusts Commissioners were to a great extent Judges, he thought it would be most objectionable that persons exercising judicial functions should be liable to be questioned in Parliament on the subject of their decisions. He also objected to the Amendment, because, if it were adopted, a Commissioner who had to inquire into the administration of charities in a particular borough, which charities were made subservient to electioneering purposes, might himself become a candidate for that borough, and thus all confidence in the fairness of his proceedings would be destroyed.
Question put, "That the words 'paid Commissioners' stand part of the Bill."
The House divided:—Ayes 113; Noes 32: Majority 81.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLproposed that the clause relating to exemptions should be so altered as to exclude the University of Durham from its operation. The Universities of Oxford and Cambridge were to be exempted; but then it was because the colleges and halls of those Universities had very recently been made the subject of inquiry, and would have to be considered in future legislation. No such reason, however, could apply to either Durham or London, and he therefore proposed to alter

1491
the clause, so as to render it subservient to the provisions of the Bill with the University of London.
Amendment proposed, in page 25, line 12, after the word "Oxford," to insert the word "and."
SIR ROBERT H. INGLIScould not but think that it would have been much better if the noble Lord had left the Bill as it was.
MR. MOWBRAYsaid, the cases of the Durham and London Universities were very dissimilar, the former being regulated in accordance with the provisions of an Act of Parliament. He must say he very much regretted, after the undertaking which seemed to have been entered into, that Her Majesty's Government were now prepared to depart from their announced intention, and include Durham University under the working of the Bill, and the more so as it had passed through all its stages in the other House containing a clause of exemption.
MR. THORNELYsaid, he was of opinion that there ought to be no exemptions at all; but if Oxford and Cambridge were to be exempted, he thought London ought to be similarly favoured, and it was his intention to move an Amendment to that effect.
The SOLICITOR GENERALdenied that there was any similarity between the position of Durham and Oxford and Cambridge Universities. The former by no means held equal rank as a corporate body with the two latter. And he felt sure that unless institutions like Durham and London came within the operation of this Act, that they could never be made the subject of a particular enactment, and therefore they would be removed beyond the pale of the law altogether. He therefore trusted that hon. Gentlemen would not oppose the insertion of the word proposed.
MR. T. CHAMBERSsaid, he could not at all comprehend the resons assigned for the proposal of the noble Lord; nor the very nice legal distinctions of the hon. and learned Solicitor General between the positions of the Universities of Durham and London and those of Oxford and Cambridge; for he believed that the University of London had quite as much bodily subsistence as either of the other two. Tine intention of the whole affair appeared to be to cast a stigma upon the University of London, which, it seemed to be forgotten, was an older institution than Durham.
MR. INGHAMsaid, he wished to see the exemptions extended to the University of London, which had shown itself fully entitled to every mark of respect and confidence.
MR. HEYWOODcould not understand why any distinctions were introduced. What was wanted was a general Act applicable to all the Universities, and one that would improve their condition.
MR. MALINSsaid, he must contend for an exemption in favour of Durham, and could not understand how, after the compact which had been entered into with the hon. Member for Durham, the Government could come forward with such a proposal, Though he regarded the situation of Durham in a very different light from that of London University, as the latter had neither colleges nor halls, he would rather vote for the exclusion of the latter from the operation of the Bill than consent to the inclusion of Durham.
Question put, "That the word 'and' be there inserted."
The House divided:—Ayes 65; Noes 70: Majority 5.
MR. THORNELYthen proposed an Amendment, providing that the Act should not extend to any school or college connected with the University of London. It was not that he wanted to exempt the University of London from the Act, but that he wished to put that University upon an equality with the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, that he proposed this Amendment.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 25, line 12, after the word 'or,' to insert the words, 'to any college, school, or institute connected with the University of London, under the provisions of any charter thereof.'"
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid that, notwithstanding the last division, he must object to the exemption proposed. Whatever might be the reason for the vote to which the House had just come in respect to Durham, it seemed to him there might be mischief done if the House adopted the proposed Amendment. The colleges of Oxford and Cambridge, it was well known, were connected with those institutions; but the only way in which you could connect the colleges and schools in various places with the University of London was, that those schools requested that they might be permitted to send young men to that University, in order that they might pass examinations and obtain degrees. Now, there might be a charity school of

1493
which the University of London knew nothing, could not inquire about, had no control over and no other connexion with them than that of having been asked by it, "Will you allow persons to come from our school to be examined and take degrees at your University?" The University of London, with the permission of the Secretary of State, might admit that school to those privileges; but that circumstance did not in the least degree connect that school with the University. He did not, therefore, see any ground of exemption in the case of the University of London. The proposal appeared to him to be a mischievous one, and he must, therefore, oppose it.
MR. HEYWOODsaid, these colleges or halls in connexion with the University of London were voluntary, and not charitable institutions, and he did not see why the London University should not be placed on the same footing as the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge under the Bill.
MR. CHEETHAMsaid, he should support the Amendment, for he had always considered the University of London to be on the same footing as the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. On this point being brought before Lord Aberdeen, he reinstated the University of London in the clause, and he therefore protested against its being now rejected.
The SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he was sorry to sec the manner in which this question was debated, for hon. Members who wished that every institution should be brought under the operation of the Bill, yet wished to exempt this one merely for the sake of a little wounded vanity. He thought it would have been desirable that all halls and colleges should be under the operation of the Bill; and to talk of exempting the University of London, which embraced all sorts of institutions which chose to affiliate themselves to it, would lead to many institutions so affiliating themselves in order to avail themselves of the exemption. Colleges and halls were exempted on account of their being corporations under peculiar charters, and schools and institutions supported by voluntary subscription were not included in the Bill at all. He objected to any endeavour to limit the operation of the Bill.
MR. T. CHAMBERSsaid, no doubt there were very good reasons for including within the scope of the Bill the schools and colleges connected with the Universities of Loudon and Durham; but he thought the reasons assigned for exempting those of
1494
Oxford and Cambridge equally applied to the other Universities. The Solicitor General seemed to consider that there was scarcely such a thing as the University of London. But a University was a mere fiction of law. London had as good a right to be deemed a University as Oxford or Cambridge. The whole difficulty in this case had arisen from an attempt to cast a stigma upon the University of London. Those who were connected with the London University ought not to stand by and see any Act of Parliament pass which applied to other Universities, and did not apply to it.
MR. BLACKETTsaid, the hon. and learned Solicitor General had not answered the argument of the hon. Member for South Lancashire (Mr. Cheetham), that the question had been brought under the notice of Lord Aberdeen, and that the University of London had been restored to the clause. This was, in fact, a question with regard to the Dissenters' University—that University which alone was open to them.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he must disclaim any intention of giving offence to the Dissenters, for he was one of those who was anxious for the foundation of the University of London, and assisted in its progress, and, therefore, he did not wish to cast any stigma upon it; but he had argued that a Commission had issued to inquire into the case of Oxford and Cambridge, and they were become the subjects of legislation, but no such steps had been taken with regard to the University of London, and so far it had been favoured.
MR. BOUVERIEsaid, he thought there was a fallacy in the reasoning of those who, like himself, were friends to the University of London; for, if the authority of the Commissioners under this Bill was to operate beneficially, he did not see why they should wish exemptions like those of Oxford and Cambridge to be carried further.
MR. W. J. FOXsaid the principle of religious equality would be violated if there was this difference of exemption. If Oxford and Cambridge were national establishments, and not ecclesiastical corporations, the London University would never have existed; and, therefore, those who founded that institution claimed to be placed in the same position as Oxford and Cambridge, and they felt that this was an instance of placing it in an inferior and degrading position. He agreed that the operation of the Bill was beneficial, and that there should be no exemptions whatever; but when the

1495
alternative was between diminishing the usefulness of the Bill, and violating a great principle and casting a stigma on an institution, he would adopt the latter, although regretting that the operation of the Bill should be curtailed.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The House divided:—Ayes 64; Noes 79: Majority 15.
Bill passed.

SMOKE NUISANCE ABATEMENT (METROPOLIS) BILL.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
MR. SPOONERsaid, he must object to this Bill being proceeded with at that hour [quarter past 2]. He would move that the House go into Committee on that day three months.
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House will, upon this day three months, resolve itself into the said Committee," instead thereof.
MR. MALINSjoined in pressing the noble Lord not to proceed with the Bill this Session. He had seen several members of the manufacturing interest on the subject, who declared to him that it would be utterly impossible to carry out the measure.
Mr. MACKINNONsaid, he trusted the noble Lord would persevere with the Bill. It was perfectly easy to remedy the smoke nuisance, both in steamers on the river and in manufactories, at a very small expense in alterations. The whole objection arose from a disinclination to incur expense in altering furnaces, and from the coalowners in the north, who were apprehensive that anthracite coal would supersede the consumption of theirs in the London market.
MR. PETOsaid, that at present there was an intolerable nuisance from small steamers above bridge from the quantity of smoke emitted by them. All that was wanted was that they should burn coke instead of coal. With respect to furnaces it was somewhat different; but still it was a question of fuel, and the Welsh coal was always to be had, and he undertook to say that there would be no difficulty in carrying out the provisions of the Bill.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, the argument of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Spooner) was an argument against all improvement. He said, "You have borne the nuisance so long that you can bear it still longer." Then the hon. Gentleman said, this could not be done—manufacturers could not consume their own smoke. The same thing had been said by the glove trade and the silk trade, when it was proposed to admit French gloves and silks. They declared that they could not possibly compete with the foreigner; but the trade was thrown open, and they did compete, and successfully too. The same argument had been used in agriculture, and so it was in regard to smoke. The manufacturers said they could not consume their own smoke, but if Parliament would only say, "you must do so," the smoke would be consumed, and the public would be relieved from this nuisance. If ever there was a case in which, he would not say the interests, but the prejudices, of the few were opposed to the interests of the many, this was such a case. Here were a few, perhaps 100 gentlemen, connected with these different furnaces in London, who wished to make 2,000,000 of their fellow-inhabitants swallow the smoke which they could not themselves consume, and who thereby helped to deface all our architectural monuments, and to impose the greatest inconvenience and injury upon the lower class. Here were the prejudices and ignorance, the affected ignorance, of a small combination of men, set up against the material interest, the physical enjoyment, the health, and the comfort of upwards of 2,000,000 of their fellow-men. He would not believe that Parliament would back these smoke-producing monopolists, and he was ready, therefore, with great confidence to go to a division.
MR. BLACKETTsaid, as one of the representatives of the smoke-producing class, he would repeat the appeal he before made to the noble Lord against going on with this Bill at this period of the Session. This Bill would cause great expense to the manufacturers of London. A second point was, that this Bill would produce a total disarrangement of the northern coal trade. ["Oh, oh!"] Why, what was he sent there for but to represent those interests? Those were reasons, if not for rejecting the Bill, certainly for not proceeding with it at this period of the Session.
LORD DUDLEY STUARTsaid, that

1497
the noble Lord had failed to show any necessity for forcing the Bill through in this Session. He had never heard from medical authority that smoke, however disagreeable, was injurious to health. There was, therefore, no reason, on sanatory grounds, for proceeding with it at so late a period. He hoped the Bill would be withdrawn.
SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, he took a different view of the subject to his noble Friend and Colleague. In reference to this Bill, he had not had one remonstrance or suggestion against it. Such a Bill would be a great public improvement, and he hoped the House would adopt it.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 66; Noes 12: Majority 54.
Main Question put, and agreed to;—Bill considered in Committee, and reported as amended.
The House adjourned at a quarter before Four o'clock.

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Earl of Minto.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Sheriffs (Scotland); Assessed Taxes; Passengers Act Amendment.
2a Naval Coast Volunteers; Liberated Africans (Sierra Leone); Land Tax Redemption; Newspaper Stamp Duties; Consolidated Annuities (Ireland); Dublin Carriage; Turnpike Acts Continuance (Ireland).
3a Brecon Collegiate Church.

LAW OF LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND)—THE CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, there were some important Bills which stood for to-morrow, and which professed to consolidate and amend the laws affecting landowners and occupiers, and freehold leasehold property in Ireland. He was sure their Lordships would agree with him that all Bills for consolidating the law should be considered with the greatest care, and that the whole of the statutes relating to the subject dealt with should be compared with the new code. It had been usual in all such cases to issue a commission, but that that step had not been thought necessary in the present instance. The question he wished to ask was, whether such of the Bills relating to the law affecting landowners and occupiers and freehold and leasehold property in Ireland, which purported to consolidate a large number of statutes, had been submitted to the law advisers of the Irish Government, and the opinion of those learned functionaries obtained as to the safety and accuracy of those Bills in that respect?
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEagreed with the noble Marquess that it was essential, in the case of any Bills for consolida-

1417
ting the law, that they should be compared with the existing statutes, and that the greatest care should be taken in their preparation. He had great pleasure, therefore, in being able to answer the question in a way which he thought would be satisfactory. It would be recollected that the Bills to which the noble Marquess referred had been introduced by Mr. Napier, when Attorney General for Ireland, and that they had not only the advantage of his great learning and legal ability, but were submitted by him to the most eminent lawyers before they were introduced to the other House. After the change of Government, notwithstanding the reliance that might have been placed on the opinion already given, it was thought desirable that the Bills should be submitted to the law officers of the new Administration. They were accordingly submitted to the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and the Attorney and Solicitor General for Ireland, and they reported that the Bills had been drawn up with great care and accuracy, accompanying their report with a recommendation that they should be passed as speedily as possible into law.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, it was physically impossible, with reference at least to the schedules, that those learned personages to whom the noble Duke referred could have seen the present Bills, for, on the last stage of the Bill in the other House last Monday, not less than six Acts of Parliament had been struck out of the schedule, and not less than five Acts which were not previously there put in. The Bill came up to that House on Thursday, and was not printed again till it came before their Lordships, so that it was impossible the learned gentleman to whom the noble Duke referred could have seen the schedules in their present state.
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEsaid, notwithstanding what had fallen from his noble Friend, the answer he had given was perfectly accurate. No doubt, if such Amendments as he mentioned were introduced at the last stage of the Bill, they could not have been seen by the gentlemen to whom he had referred; and he was unable to say whether they were aware of the nature of those alterations or not. He had spoken from information derived from the Secretary for Ireland; but of course his answer did not apply to alterations made on the third reading. He should make inquiry upon the subject.
The EARL of MALMESBURYobserved,
1418
that these Bills must not be regarded as the identical Bills brought in by the late Government, for they had been very considerably altered.

RUSSIA AND THE PORTE—QUESTION.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE: My Lords, it will be recollected that I took the liberty of putting a question one day last week on the same subject as that which I have now to bring before your Lordships, and that I then received an answer from my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, which I admitted at the time was, so far as it went, quite satisfactory. But, my Lords, I regret to say that I am compelled to repeat the same question now, and, in putting it, to ask a second question of my noble Friend, in consequence of information which has been very recently received. According to that information which has appeared in the public journals of this country, under date from Jassy, the 28th of July, it appears that the Government of the province, of which that city is the capital, has been entirely superseded, and that a new Government has been established by the authority of the Russian Emperor. It appears that the Hospodar is allowed to form part of this new Government, but that three assistants or Commissioners have been appointed to act with him, and that this council has the entire legislative and administrative power within the province. And, I believe, the same course has been pursued in Wallachia as in Moldavia, and that these two provinces are now under a new administrative and legislative Government appointed by the Emperor of Russia. But, my Lords, that is not all; for it appears that contributions for the support of the Russian forces are levied directly from the inhabitants of the provinces; and, more than that, my Lords, it appears that certain Boyards have been forcibly compelled to enlist in the service of the Russian Emperor. Thus, my Lords, we have these two provinces, if these accounts be correct—we have these two provinces in every respect under the rule and government of the Czar—the administrative and legislative functions carried on by Russian authority, and the taxation and resources of the country managed, raised, and administered under the authority of the Russian Emperor; and still more than that, you have the Russian armies forcibly recruited from those who are the subjects of those provinces, and under the direct government of the Porte.

1419
Now, my Lords, the first question I have to ask my noble Friend is, whether he has received any information on this important subject, either contradicting or affirming what I have stated? And the second question—and it is one which very naturally occurs upon the first; so naturally, that I cannot refrain from putting it, even though I may be considered by my noble Friend indiscreet in doing so—and I am sure it is one which almost every man in this country, and most certainly every Member of either House of Parliement, must be most anxious to have answered—the second question is, if these facts are true and cannot be contradicted, what has the Government of this country done thereupon? This question, as your Lordships will perceive, divides itself into two parts—first, what have Her Majesty's Government done here at home? And, secondly, what have they done by their functionaries abroad? I have very little doubt as to the latter point; and I hope I shall be told that there is very little reason to doubt that, at the moment when I have now the honour of addressing your Lordships, the combined fleets are at last before Constantinople, on the other side of the Dardanelles. I cannot believe it possible that the Ambassadors of France and England should have had any restrictions imposed by their respective Governments on their discretion in regard to the directions they may think it necessary to give to the Admiral commanding the combined force, nor can I doubt for an instant that my noble Friend and relative at Constantinople will have thought it right to hesitate in acting with that spirit and energy which becomes the representative of this great country. If I ask, then, my Lords, what has been done at home, I hope and expect that I shall be told that either long before this intelligence was received in this country, or, at all events, since it was received, there has been, not a mere request for explanation, but a categorical demand that the Danubian Principalities shall be immediately evacuated by the Russian forces. For, I say, if we have undertaken and advised the Porte, so that the Porte has held back her arm, and not attempted to defend her territory, we have made ourselves parties to these transactions, as well by what is doing now as by what has been done under former treaties; and I cannot believe, nor will I allow myself to believe, that these statements that have arrived are in all respects true, because there is no explaining away what is
1420
Known to be the fact—there can be no doubt whatever, if the statements reported be true—that Russia, in assuming the government of these two Principalities, and in so taking possession of the territory in question, has committed an aggression upon Turkey, in utter contradiction of the circulars voluntarily issued by her to the Courts of Europe on the subject, as well as of the manifestoes issued by the Russian general on entering the Provinces. I am not, however, my Lords, going to discuss that matter now, of which notice has been given for a discussion on a future evening; but I must say, I cannot doubt that the energetic steps I have referred to must have been taken—because what is this act, but the strongest possible proceeding of war on the part of Russia? We were told, when the Russian forces entered these provinces, that it was not to make war upon Turkey. Why, what I have described is itself war. It is either war or piracy; and if it is not war, it is piracy. And are we in this position that we are to suffer war to be waged upon our ally upon such pretences as are here put forward, or are we to stand by and see this act of violence committed upon Turkey without interfering? If we are to be told that it is a question of treaty whether the fleet shall be inside or outside the Dardanelles, I say there is now such a state of war as abolishes all treaties between Russia and Turkey, so far as Russia is concerned. There does not exist a single treaty binding on Turkey after the aggression which has been perpetrated upon her by Russia. There can be no reason whatever, then, for not acting. And what is the state of things disclosed by the answers we have received from the Government in either House of Parliament? That we have sent notes. Aye, but you have sent other notes; and we were told there was another note to be sent from Vienna last Sunday or Monday; but while you are sending notes the Russian forces are advancing, and, beyond the Principalities I have named, are taking possession of another territory nearer to Constantinople. It may be said, "Good news has been received, and appears in the papers of to-day," and I shall be told probably, if that news is true, that the proposal which has been sent from Vienna has been received favourably at St. Petersburg. But we do not know what that proposal is, and before you can expect that the fact of its acceptance can give unqualified satisfaction, we must

1421
know what is the nature of the proposal which has been made. It is clear, however, that it is not the proposal which was alluded to last week in the House of Commons; for we were then told that the messenger would leave Vienna with a proposal from England and France on the Sunday or Monday, whereas this news dates from St. Petersburg on the 3rd instant, and it is utterly impossible that leaving Vienna on the 1st, it could have reached St. Petersburg on the 3rd. Therefore this news must relate to some previous Austrian proposition. We do not know, then, what the proposal which has been accepted is. But I am sure, after what has occurred, your Lordships will not consider, and the country will not consider, any proposition satisfactory, if it be not for the immediate and complete evacuation of the Turkish territory. But under this, which I call good news, there is news of a very different quality received to-day; for it is therein stated that the Russian flotilla, which had been collected at Ismail, is in possession of the whole of the upper part of the river, and consists of 200 vessels, of which 150 are gun-boats. Thus while we are passing notes and sending couriers, we have not only the occupation of the Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia, but the invasion of Bulgaria, and the whole of the Danube, that great river, the most important to the commerce of Europe, in the possession on both sides of a Russian force. These are things which, while I am anxious to wait with the utmost patience for the explanations it may be convenient to the Government to give, render it impossible for me to refrain from putting the questions of which I have given notice, and to which I hope we may obtain a direct answer. I can assure your Lordships that there is no man in either House of Parliament who has a more sincere abhorrence of war than I have, unless it be necessary—I do not say justifiable, but unless it be absolutely necessary—for the maintenance of the honour and character, and essential to the dignity of the country. But at the same time I do say, that if we are to sacrifice our honour and character, and our dignity as a nation when they are involved, in the face of Europe—then I say the whole material interests of the country must also suffer. It is for this reason, my Lords, that I have taken the liberty of making this statement before asking the questions which I am now about to put to my noble Friend. Those questions are, first, I wish to know
1422
once more whether my noble Friend has any official authentic information in reference to the statement I have made of the proceedings of the Russian authorities in the Danubian provinces of Turkey; and if that is the case, what steps have been taken by the British Government in consequence of such proceedings?
The EARL of CLARENDON: My Lords, I am afraid it will not be in my power to give my noble Friend any answer materially different from that which I gave five days ago in reply to the same question. I agree entirely now, as I did last week, in everything that has fallen from my noble Friend with respect to the consequences that would arise, both to Turkey and to Europe, from any permanent occupation, or anything resembling a permanent occupation, of the Principalities by Russia. But I must again inform my noble Friend that we have no information—no official information—of the character my noble Friend has brought before your Lordships—I will not certainly deny that many of the events to which he has alluded may not have been committed by the Russian Government—(but I must, at the same time, add, that I derive my information merely from the same sources as my noble Friend)—I will not deny that there has been a sort of a Committee of Government formed for carrying on the government of the Principalities together with the Hospodars; but we have no official information whatever of that kind. And I am sure my noble Friend will agree, and your Lordships will be of opinion, that for the Government to proceed to act upon newspaper reports as they arrive would be the height of rashness. My noble Friend has said that he believes the Danube has been crossed, and that Bulgaria has been actually entered by Russia. I have no reason to believe that such is the fact, but the contrary; for I have this afternoon received letters from Galatz of the 28th ult., in which no allusion is made to that circumstance, though there is certainly some allusion to what I will not more particularly advert here in your Lordships' House as to the few gun-boats that were brought down the river, and of the bellicose character of the Russian proceedings. We have likewise communications from Jassy to the 27th, and from Bucharest to the 26th, and in neither of them is there any mention of this new form of government being established. It is true it is stated in these communications that the presence of the Russian troops has led to the infliction of much

1423
hardship upon the inhabitants, and that the peasants are made to do a certain amount of work, and are withdrawn from their agricultural operations; but there is no mention of any recruiting having taken place, or of any forced contributions, while there is mention of a large quantity of provisions having been sent from Bessarabia, which is a part of the Russian territory, for the use of the Russian troops in the Principalities. Therefore, I say, and I am sure your Lordships will agree with me, that for the Government to act upon such information as we see in the newspapers—and some of the accounts which we have seen since the question was brought forward last week have been already proved to be incorrect—I say for the Government to act upon such reports would be the height of rashness. I assure my noble Friend that he cannot exceed me, first in his abhorrence of war, and next in his desire for peace, provided that peace be an honourable peace—and I am sure no other peace can ever be to the permanent interests of this country, or receive the support or sanction of this great nation. But, my Lords, at the point at which we have arrived in these negotiations, and which I do see reason to hope are tending to bring about a peaceful solution of the difficulty, I am quite sure you will concur with me that exciting debates in either House of Parliament at this moment are not likely to aid in producing that peace, and that particular character of peace, which alone can be permanently beneficial to this country. I can further inform my noble Friend that the negotiations appear to me to be assuming that character which we all of us must desire. And, I may add, that the question has not been left as one simply between Russia and the Porte—it has not been left as a question between England and France, united closely though they are for the support of the Porte—but it has assumed a European character; that is, in all these proceedings not only the Porte, but Austria, Prussia, England, and France, all are acting cordially together in order to check designs which they consider inconsistent with the balance of power, or with those territorial limits which have been established by various treaties. This, then, is a state of things which I say is satisfactory to your Lordships and to the country, because it is likely to lead to a satisfactory and a lasting peace. I hope your Lordships will not press me to enter further into details as to the state of the negotiations now pending between Vienna
1424
and St. Petersburg, further than to say that nothing has been done at. Vienna, except with the full consent of the English and French Governments, and to assure your Lordships once more that the English and French Governments will consent to no arrangement which does not protect and secure the independence of Turkey.
The EARL of ALBEMARLE: My Lords, is quite impossible to believe, that when two great nations like England and France stand forward in defence of a Power like Turkey, that the negotiations can be other than successful, or to believe that a discussion upon their negotiations and proceedings should disclose anything discreditable to either Power. The noble Earl (the Earl of Clarendon) cannot say he has been hurried for explanations by this side of the House. We have patiently waited, notwithstanding the deep anxiety in the country upon the subject, until this late period of the Session, without saying a word that can in the remotest degree tend to impede the success of the negotiations which we were told were pending. But, my Lords, there is a point at which this patient conduct must cease. Parliament is to be prorogued, I believe, in about eight or ten days; and when the public understand that Parliament is to be prorogued in ten days or a fortnight, when the country is on the very brink of war, and they know nothing of what has passed, or of the actual state of the negotiations between this country and Russia, though they have been perfectly well informed of what has passed between the French Government and Russia, by the circular of M. Drouyn de Lhuys, and though they have been twice informed of what the Russian policy was by the notes of Count Nesselrode—when they consider that their own Government has not thought fit to avail themselves of the same channels of information, nor utter a word in Parliament by which the real state of affairs can be gathered—I say I think it will be the general opinion of the country, as well as of your Lordships, that before Parliament separates for five or six months, some information a little more in detail than anything we have yet had should be given by Her Majesty's Ministers. I see no reason why Parliament should not have full information, without incurring any risk of a debate that could be in any way injurious to the progress of the negotiations or undignified as regarded this House. For myself I can safely say, that if I were to partici-

1425
pate in any debate on the subject, I should carefully abstain from saying a syllable that could in any way impede the desirable progress which the noble Earl has intimated the negotiations are making—desirable, because no man in this country, certainly no man in this or the other House of Parliament, but must desire peace as long as peace can be maintained with honour. I trust that, under the present circumstances of the Session the noble Earl will not, on some future day, refuse to give the House and the country some idea of what is to be the policy of Her Majesty's Ministers in their negotiations with the Russian Government, and that he will tell your Lordships and the country a little more precisely than he has yet done, that it is to be a sine quâ non in any negotiations, that Russia should evacuate, and speedily evacuate, the Danubian Provinces:—because, when the noble Earl talks of "permanent occupation" of these Provinces by Russians, it is a term difficult of explanation. Anything like a permanent occupation would be an appropriation of those Provinces. I do not think the country will be satisfied with any thing less than their immediate evacuation: and I conceive the noble Earl owes it to the country to state, that the policy of Her Majesty's Government is to insist upon the speedy restoration of those Provinces to their lawful Sovereign.
The EARL of CLARENDON: I should be very sorry if there existed the slightest misapprehension, even for a single day, with respect to my meaning with regard to the Russian occupation of the Danubian Provinces. I have no hesitation now in informing my noble Friend, without waiting for any further discussion, that we look to the immediate and complete evacuation of the Danubian Provinces as a sine quâ non of any agreement whatever. With respect to any discussion, or any statement which it may seem to any Member of the House desirable to make, I hope your Lordships will bear in mind that the Government have not wished to shrink from this discussion, or to lay the fullest information before Parliament of what has been done. I did not even ask my noble Friend (the Marquess of Clanricarde) to postpone the Motion of which he had given notice for a previous evening. On the contrary, I told my noble Friend that if he thought fit to ask for information on behalf of your Lordships and the country, he was perfectly right and justified in so doing; and
1426
the noble Marquess, yielding to the request of noble Lords, did so independent of the Government, and without even giving the Government notice of his intention. I hope, therefore, it will be remembered that the Government do not shrink from any discussion; and any disposition I ever had to lay the fullest information before your Lordships is greatly increased by the prospect—I fear not quite so immediate a prospect—of the close of the Session. I do think it desirable the country should have every information we can give it, and I can assure my noble Friend, nothing will prevent Her Majesty's Government from doing so, except those reasons which have hitherto influenced them—regard for the public service—and which have been recognised and approved by this House.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH: I should be very glad to receive a denial of a report, which, indeed, I can hardly believe. I allude to the report that Russia has availed itself of the present moment for demanding from Persia payment of a large sum of money, and has intimated her readiness to accept a province in part payment. I beg to ask whether the noble Earl has received any information on this subject?
The EARL of CLARENDON: I have seen the report to which the noble Earl refers, and have taken the best means to ascertain its truth; but I am without any official information on the subject, one way or the other. If I may draw inferences from other information, I should say that no such arrangement has been proposed.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee, read.
Moved—"That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee."
On Question, agreed to: House in Committee accordingly.
On Clause 1 (Until Parliament shall otherwise provide, the British Territories in India to be continued under the Governor of the Company, subject to the Provisions of this Act).
The EARL of ALBEMARLEsaid, the people of India complained of the excessive taxation to which they were subjected for the purpose of maintaining enormous establishments. It having been determined that the double government should be maintained, no economy could be effected here, and therefore it was necessary to turn our eyes to India, in order to ascer-

1427
tain what reductions might be made there. The suggestion he had to make in this respect was, that the Government of the Presidencies of Madras and Bombay by Governors in Council should be abolished, and Lieutenant Governors substituted for them. To show their Lordships the saving which would be effected by this arrangement, he would contrast the cost of government in the Presidencies with that of the North West Provinces. The population of the North West Provinces was 23,800,594, and the civil and political charges were 185,872 l.; while in Madras, with a population of only 16,339,426, the civil and political charges amounted to 314,524 l. In Bombay the case was still worse, for while the population was only 11,109,067, the civil and political charges were not less than 363,312 l. Thus, then, it appeared that Madras, with 7,500,000 fewer people, paid nearly 70 per cent more for its civil and political administration than the North West Provinces; while Bombay, with less than half the population of the Provinces, paid nearly twice as much for its administration. It should be borne in mind, also, that the Provinces were not only more economically but also much better governed, than the Presidencies. Applying the same scale of expenditure to the Presidencies as existed in the Provinces, the annual saving would amount to 300,000 l.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 2 (After the Second Wednesday in April, 1854, there shall be eighteen Directors of the Company).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH, in reference to that part of the clause which requires the presence, signature, consent, or concurrence of ten Directors, in cases where fourteen were necessary before, proposed to add the following clause:—
"Provided, that in every case in which all the Proceedings between the Court of Directors and the Commissioners for the Affairs of India with respect to any Letter proposed to be sent to any Authority in India having been completed according to Law, the said Commissioners shall have directed that such letter so finally approved by them shall be transmitted forthwith, and such Letter shall not be signed as hereinbefore enacted within the space of Seven Days, or having been signed, shall not have been transmitted to India by the first Mail thereafter, it shall be lawful for the said Commissioners to sign the same, and such Letter so signed shall be transmitted to India by the said Commissioners, and shall have the same Force and Effect as if it had been signed by the requisite Number of Directors as hereinbefore enacted."
1428
The noble Earl said, that the object of the proposed clause was to facilitate the transaction of business, and to prevent any obstruction taking place from the members of the Court of Directors being unwilling to sign a letter of which they disapproved. He could not say that during his time in India such a circumstance had occurred; but he knew that it often happened much to the prejudice of public business. The proper course to be taken was laid down by the Act of Parliament. Communications took place between the Board of Control and the Court of Directors; and when the Board of Control was satisfied that a letter of which they approved ought to be transmitted to India, they issued a direction to that effect. By law, a certain number of Directors ought to sign such letter, in order to secure its transmission; but the Court of Directors had occasionally taken upon themselves to withhold their signatures. Now he knew not how, unless the Court of Queen's Bench were to be applied to for a mandamus, which would create delay, these gentlemen could be compelled to take up a pen and write their names. The Directors were not at liberty to refuse to sign a letter, unless they were of opinion it was illegal; and they had not the privilege of going to the Court of Queen's Bench upon questions of policy. Only on questions of law could they do that. But they might undoubtedly obstruct public business by refusing to sign; and therefore he proposed to add the proviso which he had just read. He would inform their Lordships of his reasons for this proposition. He had once, when at the Board of Control, directed a letter to be so sent to India; and he thought it had been sent according to law; but to his great surprise he found afterwards that it had not been sent. This letter related to a legal question of the greatest importance—to the position of the fourth ordinary Member of the Council, and the power of the Governor General to overrule his Council in legislation. It was contrary to law, and to the intention of Parliament, that he should do so. One of the Members of Council at Calcutta entertained a different opinion, and he (the Earl of Ellenborough) thought it necessary immediately to have the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, and the law advisers of the Court of Directors upon the subject. Their joint opinion, in connexion with his own, was prepared, and he thought it had been sent out to India; but to the best of his belief it never was

1429
sent. Undoubtedly the directions he had given with regard to the position of an ordinary Member of Council never were sent at all. This was a violation of the intentions of the Legislature; and he thought it would be met by the proviso he now submitted to their Lordships.
Amendment proposed—
"Provided, that in every case in which all the proceeding between the Court of Directors and the Commissioners for the Affairs of India with respect to any letter proposed to be sent to any authority in India having been completed according to law, the said Commissioners shall have directed that such letter so finally approved by them shall be transmitted forthwith, and such letter shall not be signed as hereinbefore enacted within the space of seven days, or having been signed shall not have been transmitted to India by the first Mail thereafter, it shall be lawful for the said Commissioners to sign the same, and such letter so signed shall be transmitted to India by the said Commissioners, and shall have the same force and effect as if it had been signed by the requisite number of Directors as hereinbefore enacted."
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had taken an opportunity of making inquiries upon this subject, and he had been assured that no delay had occurred in consequence of the signatures of the Directors being required to documents sent from the Board of Control. With regard to the instance referred to by the noble Earl, he knew nothing of the facts; but he did not apprehend it would be necessary to adopt the proviso in order to meet a case which might possibly never occur, and which, if it did occur, could not be discovered until long after.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, if this provision were not adopted, it would be absolutely necessary for the Board of Control to give most stringent directions to the Court of Directors that in every case where a letter was directed to be sent to India, the day should be signified on which the letter so sent to them was signed and forwarded. But the Board of Control had no power to compel the Directors to put their signatures to a letter unless they went to the Court of Queen's Bench, which would involve a delay of several months.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEagreed with the noble Earl in the opinion that it would be advantageous that the Board of Control should have the power of sending out a letter in the event of its not obtaining the requisite number of signatures within a prescribed period; such seemed to be the common sense view of the question, but, at the same time, he did not think that the
1430
proviso could meet such a case as that referred to; because it appeared the noble Earl was not aware of the letter not having been sent until he had left the Board of Control.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, the omission was a grievous violation of the law, and of the intentions of Parliament. The Directors were bound to obey the orders of the Board of Control; but if they did not obey, power should be taken to compel them. If his proviso were rejected, he hoped the signature of the Directors would be made imperative, because in that case, if a letter were not signed and transmitted, it would be a misdemeanour in the eye of the law, and punishable as such.
EARL GRANVILLEthought, that it would almost be better to do away with the Court of Directors, than to adopt such a provision. Such a provision would have the effect of casting discredit on the Court of Directors, just at the moment when such vast power was to be again entrusted to their hands.
The DUKE of ARGYLLthought so too; but he could not apprehend such a case likely to occur again. Perhaps the case would be met by the 33rd clause, which provided that when the Directors had any doubt as to the forwarding of a despatch, the Judges were to be consulted.
LORD BROUGHTONsaid, he could state from experience that despatches were now and then detained by the Court of Directors; but a mandamus was hardly ever resorted to; for if resorted to a great deal of time would be taken up. Such a provision I would do no harm to the Court of Directors, and might do a great deal of good to the service.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he gave the Directors a week to sign, which surely could not be considered peremptory; and if they did not sign at the end of that time the Board of Control ought to have the power.
LORD BROUGHTONsaid, the meaning of the Act of Parliament undoubtedly was, that the Board of Control should be absolute. The proposal was a very simple one, and in his opinion it would be effectual.
The DUKE of ARGYLLconsidered that the proviso was not necessary.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that it had been stated by the noble Earl, that in one case a despatch of considerable importance, which had been sent to the Court of Directors to be signed and transmitted, had not been forwarded at all; but it was clear that

1431
the present proposal of the noble Earl would not meet such a case as that, for it would not be known that the letter had not been sent.
The DUKE of ARGYLLthought that the proviso was altogether unnecessary; but, at the same time, as he did not see that any harm could arise from accepting it, he should not oppose its insertion. He would suggest, however, to the noble Earl, that the signature of the Secretary of the Board of Control was not known or recognised in India as possessing any authority, and that perhaps it would be advisable to substitute for the signature of the Secretary of the Board of Control that of the Secretary of the Court of Directors.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that the Board of Control had no power over the Secretary of the Court of Directors, and that it would decidedly he preferable to give the power of signing a despatch to the Secretary of the Board of Control.
Proviso inserted. Clause agreed to.
On Clause 3 (Her Majesty to appoint Three of the first Directors for Two, Four, and Six Years. Directors appointed by Her Majesty to be Persons who shall have served Ten Years in India),
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHmoved to "omit the words 'before the said second Wednesday in April,' and insert 'after the last Wednesday in the month of March.'" His object was to withhold any information as to the Government nominees until the whole of the elected fifteen had been appointed. He trusted that Government, when carrying out this clause, would bear in mind that which he had in view when he proposed a Council for Indian affairs, namely, the providing of adequate representations for all the Presidencies, and as far as possible for all the departments of the Presidencies in the Court of Directors, so that there should always be one person in the Court of Directors to whom the Indian Minister could resort for information upon any subject. His Amendment would work in that direction, as the Government, being in possession of the elected list, if they found Bombay, for instance, unrepresented, might supply the deficiency by the selection of a proper nominee. He thought, also, that Government should select among their nominees one temperate, judicious military officer of high standing in India, who should give advice that would be received with deference on subjects connected with the rules and regulations of the Indian army. He could as-
1432
sure the House that he had known the greatest mischief to occur in consequence of the injudicious decisions of a civilian court. He might mention the half batta case in the army of Bengal, which rankled in the breasts of the officers to this day, and of which the late Duke of Wellington complained bitterly. He had himself known cases in which regiments had been driven to the brink of mutiny through injudicious orders as to their allowances. He could assure the House that it was not safe to deal with military allowances, without a perfect knowledge of the feelings of the army, and without a consideration of its right. For these reasons he trusted that the Government would place as one of their nominees in the Court of Directors a military officer in whom they could confide, for the Board of Control were, generally, not particularly well informed as to he feelings of the army in India.
EARL GRANVILLEsuggested that the proposal, if put into the shape of an Amendment, would be more in order upon a subsequent clause.
LORD BROUGHTONsaid, it was the duty of the President of the Board of Control to ask the opinion of the Secretary at War or of the Commander in Chief upon every subject connected with military discipline or the pay of troops in India. If he did not do so, he neglected his duty. He did not see any objection to a military man being among the nominees of the Government in the Court of Directors. Whilst on his legs he might as well correct a statement made in the evidence given before the Committee on Indian Territories by a gentleman of great weight, and who now held high office. In the evidence given by Sir Charles Trevelyan, he stated, with reference to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough) and himself, that they bad stated that the President of the Board of Control decided everything himself—matters of state and government of all kinds in India; and he added, "It is not safe that one man should be trusted with so much power." This was true if the fact were, so; but Sir Charles Trevelyan might have seen, if he had taken the trouble to look into his (Lord Broughton's) evidence given before the Salaries Committee, that he held himself responsible as President of the Board of Control for whatever was done in Indian administration during the time he held that office; but he stated, "the orders to the Government of India were

1433
given upon the responsibility of the President of the Board of Control as the organ of the Government." The words, "as the organ of the Government," made the whole difference. Never, during the many years he was President of the Board of Control, had he signed any secret despatch without consulting the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State, more particularly connected with India, or, if it was one of very great importance, the whole Cabinet. So that, in fact, though the President of the Board of Control was the responsible person, he never could act, and never ought to net, except as the organ of the Government.
EARL GRANVILLEthought the evidence of Sir Charles Trevelyan referred not to his noble Friend (Lord Broughton), but to the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellen-borough).
LORD BROUGHTONsaid, the evidence of Sir Charles Trevelyan certainly referred to him.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, the fact was perfectly true, but it was unnecessary to go into any explanations upon the subject.
Amendment negatived.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH, in reference to the latter part of the clause, proposed that the whole of the six nominated Directors should be appointed at once instead of only three in the first instance. It had been stated, as a reason why the Crown should appoint only three Directors at first, that there might not be six retired Indian servants of sufficient eminence to be found. But surely with 300 pro-consuls, as they had been called, 1,200 retired officers in this country, he conceived it would not be difficult to find six persons perfectly competent in all respects to form part of the Court of Directors. He could himself easily select six, from Bengal and Agra, eminently qualified for the purpose, and men in whom the whole of India would have confidence. He conceived that if the Government desired to make this a really efficient measure, they would at once nominate the whole six, instead of confining themselves to three. They would find no difficulty whatever in obtaining the services of gentlemen qualified in every respect for the duty.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, Her Majesty's Government could not assent to the suggestion. It was their desire not only to get the very best men, but men who had most recently returned from India, full of
1434
knowledge on subjects connected with it and who had, he might say, the latest in formation upon them.
Amendment withdrawn.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHproposed that the length of service required from the nominees of the Crown, in order to entitle them to enter the Direction, should be not ten years, but some shorter period. Such a length of service would disqualify Governors of Presidencies, who seldom held office for such a term, but whose information and experience would be of the greatest value.
EARL GRANVILLEadmitted that there was great truth in the observations of the noble Earl, but he feared that such a proposition might open the way to suspicions of political favouritism in the nomination. If there was one thing more important than another in respect to this measure, it was that there should not be the slightest degree of party feeling mixed up with it.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 4 (The present Directors, and the Directors out by rotation, to appoint from their own body fifteen of the first Directors under this Act, five for two years, five for four years, and five for six years).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH, anticipating the bare possibility of the thirty Directors refusing to select the fifteen, in which event the Government of India would be practically in abeyance, proposed an Amendment giving power to the Government to select from the present members of the Court twelve, whom they might deem the most fit to act in the newly constituted Court, and to nominate at once the six which they are entitled to nominate by the fifth clause, on the occurrence of casual vacancies.
EARL GRANVILLEthought the House could hardly anticipate such an event as the Directors disobeying the directions of an Act of Parliament, by which they would be guilty of a misdemeanour.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 5 (Upon the happening of casual vacancies, number of Directors appointed by the Crown to be increased to Six, those not so appointed to be reduced to Twelve), agreed to.
Clause 6 (Vacancies among Directors how to be filled up).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he would once more reiterate his opinion

1435
that the present constituency, by whom the Court of Directors was to be elected, was totally unfit to discharge the duty assigned to it; and he thought it would b a matter of great importance to the public that very large additions should be made to the constituent body. He begged, therefore, to move an Amendment, which all retired officers of the Company civil and military, who should have served twenty years in India, should be added to the present Court of Proprietors. There were now about 1,500 of such retire officers, 250 of whom had already votes in that Court. His Amendment would, therefore, give an addition of 1,250 votes, which would make the constituency about 3,000 and he defied any man to canvass such a constituency in the manner that had hitherto been customary. Such an arrangement would give to the Court of Directors a more Indian character than it had at present, while the Indian constituents would still be in a minority. His object was to infuse new and healthy blood into the elective body.
EARL GRANVILLEdefended the clause as it stood, on the ground that the adoption of the Amendment would make a great change in the present Court of Proprietors, whilst he thought it would very much increase the evil apprehended, by increasing the number of persons to be canvassed.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, their Lordships had it in evidence that the elections at the East India House were—to use n more offensive term—at least more liable to undue influence in the exercise an promise of patronage than almost any other elections. The Government appeared to have adopted the present constituency simply and solely because they found it already in existence. Had they been forming a constituency for the first time, the last thing they would have thought of would have been the forming such a one as the present. The object of the noble Earl's Amendment was to give a more intelligent constituency; and, in the next place, to put an end to the exercise of patronage at those elections; and he believed that if there was an infusion of new blood into the constituency, you would create a more intelligent body, and get rid of the undue ways in which patronage was now exercised. Besides the addition to the constituency suggested by the noble Earl, he thought a power of voting in the election of Directors might be given to
1436
proprietors resident in India. On this subject he had put a few questions to the intelligent and able gentleman who was now secretary to the East India Company. He had asked Mr. Melvin—
"Should you see any practical objection, taking into account the rapid communication now between India and Europe, and taking into account also the length of time at which the election of a Director takes place after his first candidateship, to allowing to qualified proprietors in India the same privilege of voting by power of attorney that is exercised by residents in the north of Scotland or the west of Ireland, or any other part of our European dominions?"
Mr. Melvill's first answer was—
"We have already felt some inconvenience. I know a case in which a dead man has been polled; and I fear we should find many cases of that kind."
Subsequently, however, that gentleman had confessed that he did not see any objection in principle, merely on account of non-residence in Europe. Then he had asked Mr. Melvin—
"Do not you think that if the obvious difficulties of ascertaining the right of voting could be overcome, a proprietor of East India Stock in India has as just a claim to vote for a Director of the East India Company as a proprietor of stock in England?"
To which Mr. Melvill's reply was—
"If we were forming a new body to elect, I think so."
He (Lord Monteagle) thought there was an injustice in excluding persons in India who were qualified to vote, and who, if in England, would have been allowed to do so. Mr. Melvin said, he should think so too "if we were forming a new body to elect;" but the fact was you were now doing so, and were constituting a new body for the government of India, and consequently on the authority of Mr. Melvill, Indian voters ought justly to be admitted.
The EARL of HARROWBYsaid, the radical defect of the present system was that the Court of Proprietors had no means of knowing the merits of the persons whom they were to elect. He thought it of the highest importance that this constituency should be animated by the infusion of a little new blood into it, and could see no objection to the addition of these persons, as proposed by the noble Earl. There was nothing to be said in favour of the constituency as at present constituted.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that notwithstanding what had been said by the noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) as to the character of the elections at the India House, there

1437
was the clearest evidence that malpractices there had not been the rule, though suspicion might have attached to them in some cases. As to conferring the privilege of voting upon proprietors resident in India, he thought the evidence of Mr. Melvin was anything but conclusive in favour of that proposal. That gentleman said, in answer to the noble Lord—
"I think the great object of any constituent body for the election of the Directors is to provide as good an instrument as possible for the government of India, and for the promotion of the happiness of the people of that country. As I said before, I do not think that any system of election, or any extension of the present franchise, would provide for that object better than the present."
He (Earl Granville) thought, therefore, that he had got Mr. Melvin on his side of the argument. With regard to the alleged ignorance of the Court of Proprietors as to the merits of those whom they were called upon to elect as Directors, he believed that if the noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) possessed India Stock, and were called upon to vote, he would make it his business to obtain accurate information upon the subject; and he thought as much knowledge of persons qualified for the office was to be had in London as could be gained by the personal knowledge of a collector, or an officer who had passed twenty years in some retired spot in India, where he was not likely to obtain information. It was impossible to deny that, under the working of the present system, very distinguished men had been elected to seats in the Board of Directors.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that Government was to come out next year as great reformers of the constituency at home, and yet on this occasion they refused to add to the constituency by whom the Court of Directors was elected those who could not fail to be a very superior class of voters.
LORD ELPHINSTONEconfessed he should view with considerable regret the adoption of any proposal to give votes to persons residing in India, because it would lead to a system of canvass in that country most detrimental to the Company's service.
The DUKE of ARGYLLsaid, the basis of the Bill was that it created no new constituency at all, but that it proposed to carry on the government of India through the means by which it had been carried on for the last twenty years, in trust for the Crown, and under the control of the Crown. The Government were certainly adding to the Board of Directors an element not
1438
elected by the proprietors, but they were not altering the constituency. He considered the Amendment inconsistent with the object of the Bill, which was to vest the government of India in the East India Company.
LORD BEAUMONTdid not think the noble Duke had mended the matter. So far as he was concerned, he had rather convinced hint of the necessity for the Amendment than otherwise. He would, indeed, rather they should get rid of the existing constituency entirely; for as the East India Company had ceased to be a trading Company, it was absurd to make the possession of stock a qualification for voting. It was true that the object of the Bill was to vest the Government of India in the East India Company; but he imagined the object was to ameliorate and amend the government of India with a view to the advantage of India, and not with a view to the advantage of any body of persons in this country; and surely they were not to be precluded from attempting to amend the constitution of the Company, so as virtually to amend the government of India and to do good to India itself. He supported the Amendment, in the hope that there would be some improvement of the constituency.
The DUKE of ARGYLLbegged to remark that he had stated it as a fact, and not as an opinion of his own, that the Bill proposed at present to continue the government in the hands of the East India Company.
The EARL of HARROWBYcould not see the advantage of having London merchants and bankers engaged in settling the ryotwar system in India. They were very respectable gentlemen, no doubt, but they were not to be taken as judges in Indian matters; and the proprietors of India Stock had as little necessary connexion with India as the proprietors of Bank Stock.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH said, that whatever might formerly have been his opinion, further experience had satisfied him that it might be inconsistent with the public interests that the commercial element should prevail to any very great extent in the Direction, as much public inconvenience might be occasioned by persons engaged in commerce having previous knowledge of fiscal changes in India. When in India he proposed, and assumed that the proposition would be acceded to by the Court of Directory that no money should be advanced on the hypothecation of goods

1439
after a certain time; but, from the violent pertinacity with which the Court of Directors adhered to that pernicious system, he supposed that there was too much of the commercial element in the Court, and that there must have been persons there interested in the continuance of the abuse. He was in favour of adding a considerable number of persons cognisant of India to the present constituency; and he might here mention a circumstance communicated to him by the senior clerk of the Board of Control, when he (the Earl of Ellenborough) was first appointed to that department. Two gentlemen in the City were canvassing for the office of Director, and both applied to him as President of the Board of Control. He asked the clerk what was usually done in such a case, and the clerk replied, "I will tell you what used to be done in former times. It was an understood thing in the time of Mr. Dundas that the Government and all their principal supporters bought votes for the election of Directors; and Mr. Dundas had at his disposal 300 votes, and he elected the whole Court." That was the case in those good times, and there would be no difficulty in doing the same thing now, for 50 votes in the hands of the Government might enable them to turn the election. He therefore thought it advisable to extend the constituency largely, by adding to it independent men, over whom the Government had no control.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEsaid, the existing constituency had one merit, and that was, it contained within itself the seeds of its own utter extinction. The time must come when the East India Proprietary would expire, and then the creation of some other machinery for the government of India would be forced on the consideration of the Government.
LORD BROUGHTONwas satisfied that a quorum ought to be fixed for the Court of Proprietors; for at present a few discontented proprietors had the privilege of meeting and abusing the Government, Directors, and everybody else. They ventilated their arguments in vacuo, for frequently very long debates were carried on with only five or ten proprietors present, or, when the Court was very full indeed, fifteen. The alteration of the constituency, however, was a large question, and not consistent with the basis on which the Bill was founded.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, the account given by the noble Lord of
1440
what took place in the Court of Proprietors might be very correct; but how could he know anything about the matter? Surely, the noble Lord never read the debates there!
Amendment withdrawn. Clause agreed to.
Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 (Six of the Directors not appointed by the Crown to be persons who shall have served ten years in India).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, it never could be intended that this clause was to pass as it stood. The six Directors to be nominated by the Crown were to have had ten years' service either under the Crown or the Government of India; but here all that was required was that the six Directors should have resided in India. There was no security taken that they should have had any Indian experience or knowledge, and, for aught they knew, the six Directors might have been indigo planers or opium dealers; the consequence would be, that instead of the Government partaking of an Indian, it would be invested with a commercial character. He should move an Amendment to the effect, that all classes of the Directors should be obliged to show that they had served for ten years in India, either under the Company or the Government.
EARL GRANVILLEshould be sorry to enact anything that would prevent the appointment of six Directors who had been engaged in mercantile matters, or had been the owners of shipping.
Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to.
Clauses 10, 11, and 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 (Directors before acting to take the oath herein named).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, the clause was very curiously worded, and contained a very curious oath. The person who drew up the clause had done it in so slovenly a way that he had omitted the word "emolument" in the second part of the oath, though it was inserted in the first; therefore the Director took an oath that he would accept no "emolument," but he took no oath that he had no "promise of emolument." The person who drew the Bill had further done it so carelessly that this clause stood with the words "said Company," without any reference to any Company whatever. Whenever he saw a lawyer using a great number of little words, he knew the meaning was that they should be of no effect. The Director should

1441
swear that he had not taken "money or money's worth," and these were the words; that ought to be inserted. There were many different ways in which bribery could be effected—such as reducing the price of articles furnished to a sum much below their real value. In the last part of the oath the Director swore he would be "indifferent and equal to all manner of persons." Why, he violated that oath every time he gave away a cadetship! For what purpose did he take office? To do exactly the reverse of that which he swore he would do. Instead of that oath, therefore, he proposed the following, which would much more clearly state what the Directors ought, and ought not, to do. He proposed, then, to omit the oath down to "understanding," and to insert the following words:—
"I solemnly swear that I will be faithful to Her Majesty Queen Victoria, and will, to the best of my ability, perform the duty assigned to me as a Director of the East India Company in the administration of the government of India in trust for the Crown. I further swear that I have not entered into any engagement or understanding with respect to the nomination of any person to any appointment in my patronage, or in that of the Court of Directors, for the purpose of obtaining any vote, or any aid, or support, at my election as a Director of the East India Company, and that I am free in honour to dispose of every part of such patronage as I may think fit. I also swear that I will not derive, or seek to derive, any advantage in money or money's worth from the disposal of such patronage."
Why should they swear to do their duty to a Company which did not exist? No honest man could object to take this oath; and as to money or money's worth, if the Directors really meant what they swore in regard to patronage, they could not hesitate in taking it in the form he proposed.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had that feeling about oaths of this kind, that, personally, he should not be sorry to see the oath in question omitted altogether; but, considering the high functionaries who were still called on to take oaths, such as Judges and others, he did not think it would be right to leave it out in the present case. With respect to the noble Lord's observations on the nature of the oath, he must say he thought there was some strength in the first part of them, and his own form of oath, unlike all other general oaths, was especially and cunningly devised to meet every sort of malpractice on the part of the Directors. But, however disposed he might be to accept the amended oath, he thought, if their Lordships
1442
accepted it, after the noble Earl's speech, they would, in the opinion of the public, convey a suspicion and an expression of belief that the Directors were utterly unworthy of confidence. He, therefore, felt it to be his duty to call on their Lordships to resist the change.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHreplied, that a certain degree of suspicion must be attached to all persons called on to take oaths, or why were they asked to take them at all? Their Lordships were obliged to take an oath at that table; the Judges and all persons filling great public offices were obliged to do the same; and, in fact, there was a great and just Parliamentary suspicion attaching to all persons called on to take an oath in the exercise of their public functions. He thought they should distinctly impress on those gentlemen an understanding of the character in which they were called on to conduct the administration intrusted to them, and that they should be made to comprehend clearly they were only the trustees of the Crown.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the Government would reconsider the oath before the third reading; but, at the same time, he wished to disclaim, on the part of the Government, any feeling of suspicion with respect to the Directors.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHwas glad to accept the noble Lord's promise. He had no desire but to obtain an explicit declaration from the Directors that they were only the trustees of the Crown.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 14 to 20 agreed to.
Clause 21 (So much of 3 & 4 Will. IV. as provides that the fourth ordinary member of the Council shall not sit or vote, except at meetings for making laws and regulations, repealed).
LORD WYNFORDwas understood to propose an Amendment, but his Lordship was inaudible.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he hoped that the Government would consider the expediency of nominating as fourth ordinary member of Council some youthful English statesman of business habits, and acquainted with the mode of managing affairs in some public department in this country. He hardly knew anything that would add more strength and comfort to the Governor General in his arduous office; for he never saw a country where there was such an absence of all businesslike habits as India, so that it was matter of astonishment to him when he went out there, though he

1443
did not pretend to anything more than some acquaintance with the proceedings at the Board of Control. With great ease, and without any detriment to the public service, he was enabled to effect a saving of one week in the transmission of letters from the Governor General homeward, and of one hour per day in the transaction of business by the Council.
The EARL of ALBEMARLEavailed himself of the opportunity to impress on the Government the necessity of a larger employment of Natives in high official stations in India.
Amendment withdrawn; Clause agreed to.
Clause 22 (Legislative Councillors added to the Council of India, for making Laws and Regulations).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHobserved, that words were not inserted in the clause providing that the appointment of these additional Members from each Presidency should take place from time to time, and moved an Amendment to that effect. There was no such provision mentioned, and therefore he did not know whether Councillors could be removed when once they had been appointed. [Earl GRANVILLE: They are removable.] The clause did not say so. For what period were they appointed, and on what understanding? The ordinary Members of the Council were understood to be appointed for five years; but these additional Members, were, it appeared to him, placed in a totally different position. Were they, he would ask, appointed as they would be by the Governor General, to be removed at the end of his tenure of office, or were they not to be removed until the end of five years? The clause provided—
"That one member of each Presidency, and the Lieutenant Governors for the time being established in the said territories, should be appointed by the Governor of such Presidency and the Lieutenant Governor of such Lieutenant Governorship respectively, from among the persons having been, or being at the time of their appointment, in the civil service of the Company for ten years."
Now, he would ask, could the Lieutenant Governor appoint himself? From the wording of the clause he was sure he could; but, in any case, he was sure he ought, for he would make the best member of the Council. He deprecated the exclusion of military men from the Council. He had felt the inconvenience arising from this exclusion, and had more than once suggested that a military member should be
1444
succeeded by a military man, and a judicial member by a judicial officer. He would, therefore, suggest the omission of certain words in the clause, by which a power would be conferred on the Governor General to nominate military as well as civil members of the Council.
The EARL of ALBEMARLEexpressed a hope there would be no distinction of any class in the Council.
LORD BROUGHTONapproved of the proposition of the noble Earl opposite, but expressed a general distrust of the working of the new Council. As the clause stood, it must mean that the Governor General should be able to choose two Natives, which would lead to all kinds of mistakes and inconveniences. The whole service was opened generally. A Native might enter Haileybury, and might be made member of Council, and if in the course of events, by the death of a Governor General, he should happen to be the senior member of the Council, he might become, pro tempore, Governor General of India. He had great doubts about this Council altogether. He was afraid the working of it would be that we would have a sort of little Parliament in Calcutta, and that the Governor General would lose something of the authority which he thought it was perfectly necessary he should possess. In the eyes of an Oriental, the head of a State was looked on as the source of all power, and more particularly he was regarded as the maker of the laws; and it seemed to him impossible that those who made the laws should not be invested with the sovereign power. Anything which had the tendency to diminish the authority of the Governor General in the eyes of the people of India would be most pernicious, and might go far to deprive us of our Empire. Was it to be supposed these ten or twelve members—["They are fifteen"]—well, then, fifteen members—would meet without discussion or debate, ending in a division, and that this division would not be made public? Nothing was secret in India—it was difficult to keep the most secret matters in the most secret despatches from becoming known; and the noble Earl knew well instances where the most important matters of that kind had been disclosed before they reached this country. Besides, they had a free press in India, and one paper would take the part of a portion of the Council, and say they were right; and another would say they were wrong, and in this way there would be great differences of

1445
opinion created. He must say, he was most apprehensive of this new way of governing India. The Council would become a body for many other purposes than mere legislation. Was it to be the taxing body of India? He thought it must become so. He contended that they should not confer on any one but on the Governor General, through his agents, the power of initiating laws; that the consent of the Governor General should be given before any new laws were proposed, for, in his opinion, it was far better that a veto should be exercised in the first instance than afterwards; and thus they might avoid an antagonism between the Governor General and the Council, which would prove, if not dangerous, at least most inconvenient.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEconcurred very much in the views of the noble Lord who had just sat down, and thought it would be most inexpedient to control the power of the Governor General in legislating for India. He thought, with the noble Lord, that the setting up this Legislative Council would have the effect of impairing the authority of the Governor General, and of establishing that which would appear to be a popular assembly, without any of the essentials of such a body. An experiment such as this would, in a country like India, be attended with a very doubtful result.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHwas inclined to think that by the Bill, as it now stood, the Governor General would retain the power of taxation, not by ordinance, but by Acts passed by the Legislative Council. He thought the noble Baron opposite was mistaken in supposing that the senior Member for the new Council could become Governor General pro tem., for that office could only be held by an ordinary Member of the Council. It was, however, a question which should be well considered by Her Majesty's Government.
LORD BROUGHTON: But a Native may be a Member of the ordinary Council.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHdid not consider that was the case.
LORD MONTEAGLEcontended, a Native might become a Member of the ordinary Council, if he entered the service in the ordinary manner by admission at Haileybury College.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHobjected to the preference given to civil servants over military; and in the case of the two Legislative Councillors to be appointed by the Governor General under this clause,
1446
moved the omission of the qualifying word "civil," in order to make servants of the Company, whether civil or military, eligible for the appointment.
Amendment agreed to. Word struck out accordingly.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 23 (Appointment of Vice-President of Council to preside at meetings in absence of Governor General).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHproposed to extend the purpose of the clause by allowing the senior ordinary Member of the Council to preside therein in case of the absence of the Vice-President.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 24 agreed to.
Clause 25 (No Law or Regulation of Governor General in Council invalid by reason of the same affecting any Prerogative of the Crown) postponed.
Clause 26 (Time for Meeting of Council with new Legislative Councillors to be fixed by Governor General by Proclamation).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHmoved the addition of the following proviso:—
"Provided further, that nothing hereinbefore contained shall affect the power now vested in the Governor General in Council, as such Council was constituted by the Act 3 & 4 Will. IV. c. 85, to authorise the Governor General alone, when absent from the Council in any part of India, to exercise all or any of the powers which might be exercised by the Governor General in Council, except the power of making laws and regulations, and the notification thereof by the said Council shall have the same force as any law or regulation to that effect would have had if this Act had not been passed."
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the Government could not consent to the noble Earl's Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 27 to 29 agreed to.
On Clause 30 (Commander in Chief of Her Majesty's Forces to be Commander in Chief of the Company's Forces),
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHmoved the addition of the following words:—
"And such Commander in Chief of Her Majesty's, and of all the Company's forces in India, shall, ex officio, be an extraordinary Member of the Council of India, and such Commanders in Chief in any Presidency shall be, ex officio, Members respectively of the Councils of such Presidencies."
The noble Earl said it would not do to leave it to the Court of Directors to separate the Commander in Chief from the civil govern-

1447
ment, as such separation was injurious to the public service, and dangerous to the State.
LORD BROUGHTONthought it better that the being Members of the Councils, should be the natural instead of the legal consequence of being Commanders in Chief.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 31 and 32 agreed to.
On Clause 33 (Salary of President of the Board of Control).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHexpressed his gratification at the provision by which the President of the Board of Control was placed in point of salary on a level with the Secretaries of State. He would express a hope, however, that the Gentleman at the head of the Board of Control, whoever he might be, would not derive any advantage from this increase of salary, for the very best way of spending it would be by receiving at his table on their return from India all the distinguished officers who had quitted that country. In this way the President of the Board might very easily spend the additional 1,500 l. a year he would receive, and in return he would derive information which he could never obtain from papers, and which would be of the greastest possible value to him in the conduct of public business.
LORD BROUGHTONdoubted the expediency of having in Parliament only one of the Secretaries to the Board of Control. Neither did he think that the appointment of a permanent Secretary would be a good plan. This permanent Secretary, let him be whom he might, would enter office with certain strong feelings or prejudices. If he had belonged to one branch of the service, he would always give his opinion in favour of that service; if he had been at Bengal, he would stand up always for the interests of Bengal; if at Bombay, for the interests of Bombay; and if at Madras, for those of Madras. Moreover, such an official would be placed in an invidious position with respect to clerks of long standing at the Board, many of whom were men as intelligent and as capable of giving advice to the President of the Board as any men who could be found. The appointment of a permanent Secretary would be only adding to the embarrassment of the President of the Board of Control, and producing jealousy in the staff.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHexpressed some apprehensions as to the expediency of such an appointment. He was
1448
quite sure from what he knew of the Board of Control, that the business of the department would go on perfectly well without an officer so appointed.
EARL GRANVILLEdefended the provision, and said it had been found extremely desirable, in cases of changes of Administration, to have some person at hand who could inform the Board of all the details of the business on hand.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 34 (Yearly allowances to Chairman, Deputy Chairman, and Directors, instead of those now payable under by-laws) agreed to.
Clause 35 (Regulating the Salaries of) officers in India).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHcomplained of the reduction in the salary of the Commander in Chief, whose office was he only great prize in the Army, but who now could not save more than 1,500 l. or 2,000 l. a year.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 36 (Provisions of 3 & 4 Will. IV., respecting Admission of Students to Haileybury College repealed, and existing Rights, of Patronage of Appointments to cease).
EARL GRANVILLEproposed after the word "the," line 10, to insert the words "appointment of persons in the civil service of the Company and the."
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, if it was bought upon a mere examination of persons from all parts of the country to secure efficiency for the service, they would very soon find the effect of the "cramming" in the brilliancy of the person examined, and his incompetency to fill the office to which he was appointed. The system proposed would lead to nothing but a lowering of the standard of those appointed to the service.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the noble Lord's objection seemed to be that under he Bill any clever scamp would be enabled, by "cramming," to pass the requisite examination. He thought, however, it would be perfectly disgraceful to the college, if, in nineteen cases out of twenty, the students there were not able to beat out of the field a person who had not the advantage of a special education like that given there. The stimulus applied in this way to the college would, he anticipated, be very beneficial.
Amendment withdrawn.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 37 agreed to.
On Clause 38 (Board of Control to make

1449
Regulations concerning Examinations, Admissions, and Appointments, to Haileybury College, and concerning Examinations for Admission to the Military Seminary at Addiscombe. Regulations to be laid before Parliament),
The EARL of ALBEMARLEsuggested that the Government should make some alteration in the clauses relative to the examination of students, with the view of securing the free admission of Natives into the service.
Clause agreed to.
LORD MONTEAGLE, adverting to the circumstance that, notwithstanding the clause introduced into the last Act renewing the Company's Charter, declaring the eligibility of Natives to the covenanted service, not one had ever been admitted, proposed a clause, declaring that no natural-born subject of Her Majesty should, by reason of religion, or colour, or place of birth, be incapable of holding office and employment under the Company, whether In the covenanted or uncovenanted service, if this clause should not be inserted in the Bill, the Company would treat the wishes and intentions of the Government in this respect as mere moonshine. He begged to give notice that he would propose this clause again on the third reading, in order that his proposal might stand recorded on the Journals.
EARL GRANVILLEobserved, that the aptitude of Natives for certain departments of the service had been satisfactorily established before the India, Committee. If, therefore, he objected to the noble Lord's clause it was not from any doubt that Natives of India would be found fully qualified to fill the offices referred to in it. The noble Lord's clause, however, was directed against an imaginary evil. The reason why Natives had not been employed in the civil service was this:—The clause in the existing Act was merely permissive, and the civil service being entirely dependent on nomination, it had happened that no Director had nominated a Native. Had a Native been nominated, he must have been employed. The present Bill abolished the system of nomination, and any Native who exhibited equal talent with Englishmen at the examination would obtain employment.
Clause negatived.
Clause 39 to 43, inclusive, agreed to.
Clause 44 (Manufacture and Sale of Salt by the East India Company to cease and determine).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHmoved that the clause be rejected, though he thought that the Motion might have been made more properly by one of Her Majesty's Ministers, as the clause formed no part of their original proposition. At the same time, he was ready to move its rejection, because he believed it would operate most injuriously, and because it constituted a most unwarrantable interference with the financial arrangements of India. This interference had been proposed not for the advantage of the people of India, but for the benefit of a small number of persons employed in this country in the manufacture of salt, and the whole of the Indian revenue derived from salt would be imperilled if the clause passed into law. The clause established no regulations which would facilitate the collection of the tax, and, in order to raise the duty on salt, it would be necessary, if the clause passed, to employ an army of excisemen in India. If smuggling were practised, as it certainly would be, the price of the article would be so reduced that, after all, the importer would not obtain that advantage which he anticipated. There had been in preceding years an increase of consumption and a large reduction of price; but it must be remembered that the revenue in India did not rise with the same elasticity as the revenue in this country. While their Lordships were creating what was described as a better Government for India, and enlarging the Legislative Council—while they were endeavouring to give consistency and dignity to the Government of India—it was not right to interfere for the first time in a matter strictly of internal regulation, and it was not fitting or seemly, for the purpose of giving a small additional profit to certain traders in England at the expense of India, to imperil the revenue of that country. It was better to treat India as a perfectly independent country in matters of finance. In India there were not the means of commuting taxation, as the Natives felt the greatest indisposition to pay any new tax, and for these reasons he moved that the clause be expunged.
The EARL of ALBERMARLEconcurred in what had fallen from the noble Earl as to the impolicy of interference with local taxation, but, at the same time, expressed his disappointment that this hateful monopoly, which affected the health of the people, and caused, from the tax imposed, extreme misery and distress among the people of India, was to continue. The noble Earl here referred to certain statis-

1451
tical papers for the purpose of showing how greatly the tax on salt checked the consumption. He concluded by observing that this was a subject on which he felt the deepest interest, and he still hoped that the Government in India might have instructions from the Home Government to alleviate this most distressing and grievous tax.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause negatived.
Clause 45 agreed to.
The report of the Amendment to be received To-morrow.
House adjourned till To-morrow.