Sitting of 22 March 1852

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a County Courts Further Extension; Mutiny; Repayment of Advances Acts Amendment (Ireland); Marine Mutiny; Secretary of Bankrupts Office Abolition.

PUBLIC BUSINESS—EXPLANATIONS.
On the Order of the Day for going into Committee of Supply,
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid: Sir, I am desirous of recalling to the House what has taken place since last Monday on the Committee of Supply. On Monday last I was anxious to obtain an explanation with respect to the intentions of the Government, and their course of policy as to their measures in the present Session. We were told then that as they were in a minority in this House, as there was a large majority against them, they could not bring forward measures with regard to their
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commercial policy. But we were told also, that they did intend to bring forward measures of considerable importance, which would lead to a Session of aft least the usual length. Now, it Struck me, and many Members of this House, in the course of debate, that this course was one so unusual and so unconstitutional, that it could not be acquiesced in. It would have been neither irregular nor unusual to have asked the forbearance of this House on the ground that the new Government had not a majority in this House; or it would have been perfectly competent for them, when they had a majority, to have brought forward their measures in due course before the House. But to appeal for forbearance to withdraw for a time from one class of measures on account of being in a minority, and to claim confidence with regard to others on the ground of their being likely to command a majority, was a contradiction that could not well be explained. At the end of Monday evening, however, after a debate, being very unwilling that there should be any vote of this House which would have the effect of limiting the Supplies- to a given period, by declaring an opinion in this House in a resolution adverse to the course which the Government were about to pursue, I asked the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government would consider; before Friday, what course they meant finally to take. It appeared to me that that was a fair and conciliatory course. It certainly was my intention, in putting that question, to prevent any lengthened debate and any adverse vote of this House immediately on the formation of the new Government; but the right hon. Gentleman did not seem so to consider it, and only answered me with taunts and sarcasms. On the Friday, however, a statement was made by the right hon. Gentleman with respect to the course which the Government meant to pursue. That explanation was somewhat ambiguous; but I have heard from others that a statement has been made elsewhere by the noble Lord at the head of the Government, which seems to indicate more clearly the course which the Government of which he is the chief, intends to pursue. I understand that that noble Lord did not complain at all of the question being put to him by those with whom I have no party connexion, as to the view which he will take of the present position of the Government.

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He stated, what he was perfectly right in stating, that he could not bind himself or his Colleagues to dissolve Parliament at any particular moment; that there might be circumstances—that there might be certain contingencies, which would prevent his giving that advice to Her Majesty; but that as soon as those public measures which he conceived to be of urgency and importance should have been proceeded with, he would advise Her Majesty to dissolve the present Parliament, not absolutely in April, May, or June, but as early as should seem to him expedient, with the view of reassembling before the close of the autumn. It appears to me that that statement is so far a satisfactory one that I think, as matters at present stand, it is most advisable we should proceed at once to consider the Army and Navy Estimates; and I trust, for my own part, that the necessary votes in Committee of Supply will be agreed to without much further discussion or delay. There is another class of Estimates which it is not necessary to say anything about now, because they must come on at the latter part of the Session, after we shall probably have a better knowledge of the intentions of the Government; but it is quite clear, after the intimation given of the intention to dissolve the present Parliament in April, May, or June, that there will be such a ferment in the country with a view to a new election, such a canvassing in the different counties and boroughs throughout the United Kingdom, that it will be for the public convenience that that dissolution should not be delayed longer than the exigencies of the public service require. There was, as I am informed, only one measure mentioned by the noble Lord at the head of the Government, as to the introduction of which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of Stane for the Home Department has at present given notice. It is that with regard to the militia. Now, that is a measure which, so far as I am concerned, I should be most willing to see introduced. I shall certainly not, therefore, interpose any obstacle in the way of its introduction; but of course I cannot now pledge myself further on the subject. When the measure is before the House and the country, it will be for this House to judge whether it is a measure which they can adopt; and of course I must, as others will, be at liberty to form my opinion upon that measure. With respect to any other measure which
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the Government may introduce, of course it will be competent for this House, if they should not think it necessary to entertain measures which are not of urgent importance, to postpone the consideration of such measures to a future Session; and I need not, therefore, make any further inquiries on this head. Such being the state of things, if the House will take the view which I take, I should propose to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that another day be given to the Government for the forwarding of their measures—that Thursdays, for example, should be given to Orders of the Day, and that Government Orders of the Day should have precedence of all other Orders on that day for the remainder of the Session. There is another subject, that refers to the Miscellaneous Estimates, upon which I wish to ask a question from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department. I understand there is to be an inquiry with regard to the National Board of Education in Ireland and the system pursued by that board. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that he did not propose that any inquiry should take place during the present Session. I think that any alteration of that system would be a matter of the very greatest importance; and I know it is the opinion of Lord Lansdowne, that if any alteration of the kind that I have heard suggested should take place, combined education would cease to be the rule, and would become the exception, and that separate education would become not the exception but the rule. Such a change would be, in my judgment, a great misfortune, and I hope that if any vote should be proposed for the present year, it will be according to the rules now existing, and that no change in the Irish Board of Education will take place without some inquiry and some proceedings in this House by which such a change may be sanctioned. My opinion is, that such a change as has been projected, or has been supposed to be in contemplation, is one of the very greatest consequence, and fraught with great mischief; because that system of combined education, introduced into Ireland by the present Prime Minister, has been, among other means, the most effective, and the most successful, in bringing Protestants and Roman Catholics together, and has tended greatly to mitigate the sectarian animosities which formerly prevailed. But if

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the Protestant education should be given separately, and if the Roman Catholics should be educated separately, there would be the same agitation renewed, on that as on other subjects. If the Roman Catholics were educated in separate schools, the Vote would be objected to, and the whole scheme of combined education would be at an end. I hope that, at present, without any inquiry having been made or resolution proposed, no change will be made in this Vote.
MR. WALPOLEsaid, he had stated, on a former occasion, that it was not proposed or intended by the Government to make any alteration in the mode in which the grant was distributed, until a Select Committee was appointed to inquire into the system. He had said that if they did move for an immediate inquiry, it was not their intention to supersede the essential principle of that combined education which had been established in Ireland, but that their object would be to see that the grants made for education in Ireland should be so distributed as to give satisfaction to other parties in Ireland, and amongst others, he had no hesitation in saying, to the members of the Established Church, who certainly did not participate in due proportion in the grants at present. He agreed with the noble Lord that combined education should be not the exception but the rule; but the Government thought that, consistently with the maintenance of that principle, some alteration might be made that would give satisfaction to all parties.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he merely wished to have the assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that no alteration would be made in the application of the grant for the present year.
MR. WALPOLEsaid, he could answer that distinctly—that no such alteration was contemplated. They did not wish to do anything which would disturb the rule. He wished to make one remark on something that had fallen from the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. B. Osborne) on Friday night. He had understood the hon. Member to say that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had selected his chaplains from that branch of the clergy who were distinguished by their hostility to the National System of Education. He (Mr. Walpole) had authority from the Lord Lieutenant to state that the selection was not made with that view, and that the first seven were ministers of the Church of Ireland who were in favour of that grant, and that the
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only object the Lord Lieutenant had in view in selecting his chaplains was to appoint men whose life and conduct gave the greatest satisfaction.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNEsaid, he entirely coincided in the view that had been expressed by the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) as to the proceedings in reference to the supplies. If the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had been as explicit in his place on Friday night as the Earl of Derby was in another place, he should have made no attempt to delay the supplies. But the right hon. Gentleman, in professing to be most frank, had mystified the subject more than he had done before. He (Mr. B. Osborne) should not further oppose the proceeding with the supplies; but in reference to the course about to be pursued by the Government, as to National Education in Ireland, he must say the explanation of the right hon. Home Secretary had been most unsatisfactory and evasive. It appeared to him the Government were going to play the same game with Protestantism in Ireland and in this country as they had played with Protection. It was said they did not intend to alter that system. The term now for all these measures was "modification;" but the right hon. Gentleman said they would endeavour to give satisfaction to the clergy of the Established Church in Ireland. What did that mean? The long and the short of it was that they meant to upset the system of National Education in Ireland; for he would defy him, or any other Member of the Government, to give satisfaction to that portion of the Church Establishment in Ireland, without completely, not modifying, but destroying, the system of National Education there. With respect to the appointments of the Lord Lieutenant, it might appear from what the right hon. Gentleman said that the present Lord Lieutenant was the only person who had selected chaplains for the purity of their lives. Why, of course, they all did that. Of course, all chaplains were selected for the purity of their conduct. But he maintained that the two first selected, the Rev. Mr. Goulde and the Rev. Dr. Singer, were two men distinguished for their opposition to the system of National Education. He hoped this question would be brought on early in the ensuing Parliament, and that the financial Secretary of the Treasury (Mr. G. A. Hamilton) would not go and tell one story to his constituents

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in Dublin, and another to that House, but would stick to the Motion he bad placed on the paper for a modification of the system; so that the systems of protection and education might be fairly brought forward at the earliest possible moment in the next Parliament.

VOLUNTEER RIFLE COMPANIES.
Order for Committee of Supply read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
SIR DE LACY EVANSbegged to move in the way of amendment on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply, the Resolution of which he had given notice. He could not help thinking that, in rejecting the services of the Metropolitan Volunteer Rifles, the Government had pursued a course equally inconsistent and injudicious. It was, indeed, most inexpedient to have done so, for it ought not to have escaped the recollection of the Government, that at periods of our history when there was well-founded apprehension of a foreign invasion, it was owing in a great degree to the patriotic activity of volunteer corps that the horrors of such a calamity were averted, He hoped that the Government would reconsider what they had done in this matter, and give such an explanation of their views as would tend rather to encourage than depress the readiness which the people of this country had, in many places, manifested to form themselves into volunteer companies. The letter addressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department to the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Middlesex was certainly of a very depressing character, and was regarded by the members of the Metropolitan Rifle Corps as tantamount to a refusal of their services. The right hon. Gentleman stated in that letter that the Government did not intend to sanction such clubs until their plans on the subject of the militia had boon fully matured and discussed in that House—unless, perhaps, in some few instances of absolute necessity, and that they did not regard the county of Middlesex as furnishing such an instance; but in this, in his (Sir De L. Evans's) opinion, they were greatly mistaken—for if there was one point in all England which, in case of a foreign invasion, would be more valuable than another, that place was the centre of the county of Middlesex. Some declaration of the present in-
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tentions of the Government on this subject, ought to be made with as little delay as possible, for nothing was more to be deprecated than the circulation amongst the public of the notion that offers of volunteer services for the defence of the Kingdom would be sure to be received in a cold and ungracious manner by the authorities of the State. He (Sir De L. Evans) was astonished there should be any delay whatever in accepting this offer. It was supposed that the members of these corps would be exempt from serving in the militia; but he saw no necessity for such an exemption. Being a military man, his own feelings were, of course, strongly in favour of a regular army; but he would not underrate the importance of such services as might be rendered by volunteer companies, for he could not forget that it was by such forces that the Swiss had been rescued from the yoke of Austria—that the Dutch had overthrown their Spanish masters—and that the Americans had erected themselves, despite of England, into an independent State. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department would give a satisfactory explanation of his letter to the Lord Lieutenant of Middlesex, and make such a statement as would prove that the public had no distrust of the people of this country, and that some misapprehension, arising from extreme pressure, had alone led to the idea that they were disposed to regard with disfavour the proffered services of volunteer companies.
MR. HUME, in seconding the Amendment, said that though he had, on two nights, objected to any Votes in Supply being taken after midnight, he had heard with satisfaction the statement of the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), that he did not intend any further to interrupt and stop the supplies. He (Mr. Hume) thought every facility ought to be afforded the Government for obtaining the supplies, which would have been given to the late Government, in order that they might proceed with the measures they thought to be absolutely necessary before the dissolution. The proceedings in that and the other House must have satisfied every one that it would be impossible for the Government to refuse the appeal to the country, so soon as what were considered measures of necessity were passed. It was probably the first time in his life that he had refrained from opposing Votes in Supply. But he thought that the best policy was that which had been adopted by the

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noble Lord the Member of the city of London, as far as the Army, Navy, and Ordnance Estimates were concerned. Should there be any hesitation about carrying out the understanding for a dissolution, it might be a question whether the Miscellaneous Estimates should not be voted for a short period in order to enforce it. He did not believe the noble Lord was aware of the opinion of this country with regard to the militia. In 1831 the whole population was roused in angry opposition to the proposal to ballot for the militia; and nothing but the most immediate necessity would warrant such a conscription. He hoped the Government would not consider that as one of the measures requisite to be passed before a dissolution. As long as he was able to stop such a proposal, he would do so. He was the more confirmed in his view after hearing what had been stated by the gallant General. If the Government wanted force, there were volunteers to be had without fee or reward, one of whom was worth five obtained for hire. So far from thinking that any additional force was required, he believed it to be too great at present.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'in the opinion of this House it is inconsistent, on the part of the Government, to propose an augmentation, however small, of the armed and paid Forces of the Country, while they, at the very same time, refuse, and in effect discountenance and discourage, the highly laudable, patriotic, and chivalrous offers of gratuitous service from various parts of the Kingdom, having for their object the formation of Rifle Companies and Regiments for the National defence,' instead thereof."
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
MR. FOX MAULEsaid, he must deprecate a debate upon such a question as that raised by the Amendment, and without pledging himself to any particular scheme of any kind, was anxious that the Government should be permitted to lay their Militia Bill upon the table on as early a day as possible. He had his own opinions on the subject of volunteer companies. He thought that such a force might be very serviceable as a secondary corps to support a regular army, or to support any force regularly combined; but he should be very sorry to entrust the entire defence of any country to such an armament as volunteer companies.
SIR ROBERT H. INGLISsaid, he had
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heard with pleasure the statement of the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) that he would interpose no further delay to the House passing the Votes of money or of men. He had heard also with pleasure the cheers of hon. Gentlemen around the noble Lord at that statement. As for the noble Lord himself, he would be an unnatural parent if he did show some paternal anxiety and fondness for his own Estimates, and more especially as right hon. Gentlemen opposite were merely doing the work of the noble Lord and the late Government. If that were so, and if no ulterior object with respect to a dissolution was in view, he could well understand the noble Lord and his Friends supporting the proposals they themselves had originally made. He had, however, to express a humble hope that the acts of his noble Friend and of those who cheered him, would correspond a little more to that hope than they did on Friday last. On that day, hon. Gentlemen who had avowed their desire for an early dissolution, occupied the House with eight hours of debate, and without even the consolation of a division after all. He did not deny that there were two or three good speeches, but he questioned whether there was any necessity for those speeches being made. An Amendment was now interposed with respect to a question which would be legitimately discussed on Monday next. They had also had a speech from the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. B. Osborne) on the subject of Irish education, which the right hon. Secretary of State had told them Government did not intend to interfere with this Session. If they were all agreed the Parliament should be speedily dissolved, he submitted to those hon. Members who interposed Motions, how far such discussions were consistent with their glowing desire for an immediate appeal to the country on the question of protection?
MR. BRIGHTsaid, he had understood the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) to give the Government to understand that upon certain conditions no further discussions likely to protract their proceedings would take place from that side of the House—that the Votes which were necessary, and which any Government would require, should be agreed to with as little delay as possible, the Mutiny Bill passed, and, he presumed, the Bill for the disfranchisement of St. Albans, to which there appeared to be no opposition. On other questions there was no difference of opinion, except

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on that of the militia. The noble Lord had not been treated very civilly on that question; he had not been allowed even to bring in his Bill; but he now proposed, with a magnanimity not always to be found on the Opposition bench, to allow the Bill of the Government to be laid on the table. To that he (Mr. Bright) had no objection; but he would recommend the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, as the Bill was not a mere formal measure, and would create a great discussion in the country, after laying it on the table of the House, to let it remain there, and be one of those subjects of general policy on which the right hon. Gentleman and his chief proposed to go to the country, as soon as they had got rid of the question of protection. It was peculiarly one of those questions which ought to be discussed by the constituencies; because the noble Lord's Bill proposed to affect a particular class of the community, men between the ages of twenty and twenty-three. It was a great question—first, whether we required any additional defence; secondly, whether it should be provided in that way; and, thirdly, whether it should be made to bear upon a particular class of the community in that manner. And it would be exceedingly unjust to the community, and going beyond the proper duties of that House, except in a case of emergency such as had not been laid before them, to attempt to settle a question like that in a Parliament just about to be dissolved, and altogether disorganised, owing to the election ferment now spreading through the country. He hoped the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) did not give the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer the slightest expectation of assistance in the carrying of that important measure, during the few remaining days or weeks, as it might be, of that Session. He presumed the right hon. Gentleman would bring the affairs he intended to submit to the House within the smallest possible compass; for it was certain that many Members were suffering severely in their pockets every day that the House was not dissolved. The demoralisation which, under the present system, took place at every election, must be materially increased if the elections were unnecessarily delayed.
SIR JOHN TYRELLsaid, he did not rise to prolong the discussion, but to express to the noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) his opinion that he had been guilty of a great error in the proceedings of Fri-
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day night, and that he was convinced, from what had occurred to-night, that the noble Lord had in some measure come again to his senses, and now perceived that in the course which he had been induced to take in endeavouring to enlarge the basis of his opposition, he had been considerably mistaken. He had to congratulate the noble Lord on the change which had taken place to-night, and on the fact that he had not that night thrown out his skirmishers to raise a debate for which there was no "consumption" in the country. The noble Lord, in the first instance, appeared inclined to treat the Government in the dog-in-the-manger style, but now he stood in a different situation. As regarded the Opposition, he had no hesitation in saying that there were two. The Chesham-place party might be considered the broad-bottomed opposition. But there was another, headed by the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), which might be styled the broad-brimmed opposition. If the noble Lord consented to receive advice from the "proud humility" of the hon. Member for Manchester, he could only congratulate him on such an ally, because he felt certain if the noble Lord went to the country with the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) as an ally on one hand, and the hon. Members for the West Riding of Yorkshire and Manchester on the other, it would be a most unpopular Opposition. There was a great public actor in London who entirely expressed his (Sir J. Tyrell's) sentiments on the present state of affairs. Mr. Keeley—[laughter]—Mr. Keeley said, "Vy are you in a 'urry? Great folks are never in a 'urry. The Government ought never to be in a 'urry." And so he hoped Government would not be in a hurry, and would not allow themselves to be dictated to. Hon. Members on the other side said they were anxious for a dissolution. They paid little or no respect to the wishes of county Members or quarter-sessions justices; but he could assure them that they were not fast asleep as they seemed. They were neither afraid of a dissolution nor of the factious policy of hon. Gentlemen opposite. He regretted seeing so distinguished a statesman as the noble Lord placed in his present position. The noble Lord seemed to have quite lost that natural sagacity for which the public only a few weeks ago gave him credit. If public rumour was to be believed, no small number of the Whig party would not consent to the noble Lord being placed at the head

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of any future Whig Administration. If that were so, there was an end of the family compact—the supplies had been exhausted—and even the relatives of the noble Lord's great-grandmother would no longer come to his aid. The noble Lord when he found out his mistake summoned his followers, and found that he was forced to avail himself of the support of the resuscitated Anti-Corn-Law League, and to invite the hon. Member for the West Riding to Chesham-place, and the hon. Member for Manchester to dinner. He trusted Government would neither hasten nor retard their measures. They had declared that they were not afraid of a dissolution; and if hon. Members opposite acted on the suggestion of the noble Lord, they would refrain from factious proceedings, and assist the Government to carry out the measures that were absolutely necessary.
MR. J. L. RICARDOsaid, that there was one subject upon which the public felt great interest upon which he wished to ask a question, more particularly as there seemed to be some ambiguity thrown upon it by the discrepancy in the statements of the noble Earl at the head of the Government in the House of Lords, and the hustings speech of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control. He alluded to the Repeal of the Navigation Laws. The noble Earl said that the repeal of the measure of 1848 would be wrong and unwise; but the right hon. Gentleman seemed to hold a very different opinion. He stated that the percentage of foreign tonnage had increased in a much larger ratio than the percentage of English tonnage. But that was an unfair way to put the subject, because, if from a certain country only one ship entered this country this year, and two ships entered next year, the increase of tonnage would be 100 per cent, while, if our British were to increase to a far larger extent, the percentage might not be so great. The hon. Gentleman, also, seemed to think that they could have no prosperity in this country without a corresponding degree of adversity in other countries. It was explicitly declared by the Earl of Derby in another place, that he utterly and completely abandoned all intention of falling back on the system that prevailed before the repeal of the Navigation Laws. He now wished to know from the right hon. Gentleman—and it was a matter in which the public, on the eve of an election, were entitled to have explicit information—whe
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ther it was intended by any means, either by retaliation, prohibition, or restriction, to alter the present policy in respect to their mercantile marine?
MR. HERRIESsaid, that he must have expressed himself very imperfectly indeed, if the language he used conveyed anything like the impression which it seemed to have made on the mind of the hon. Gentleman. He (Mr. Herries) had said very nearly the reverse of what the hon. Gentleman had stated as his sentiments. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Labouchere) would do him the justice of bearing witness that when the question of the repeal of the Navigation Laws was before that House, he expressed an opinion, and he did so with great regret, that it would be difficult, if not altogether impossible, to reverse that measure if passed. He had even used with regard to it the hacknied quotation, Vestigia nulla retrorsum. He had stated as distinctly as possible that by reason of the manner in which that unfortunate measure was carried, an insurmountable obstacle was placed in the way of a future remedy. He believed, therefore, that they could not now attempt the reversal of that legislation. He trusted, however, that some mode might yet be devised for alleviating the distresses of the shipowners. He never said that nothing could be advantageous to this country which was not proportionately disadvantageous to other countries; nor did he ever utter anything approaching to it. He gave instances of the extent in which British shipping had been supplanted by foreign shipping. The hon. Gentleman had not attempted to deny those figures; and, indeed, they were so clear and conclusive, that they could not be denied.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he considered the speech of the right hon. Gentleman to his constituents a sort of funeral oration over the Navigation Laws. The right hon. Gentleman said, and said truly, that no Government could materially alter the great measure by which that House had repealed the restrictions upon foreign and also upon British commerce. British commerce having once enjoyed all the new fields of enterprise which the removal of these restrictions had thrown open, that Government must be mad indeed which would attempt to reimpose them. If he had not entered into any discussion on the subject, it was not because he was afraid of entering into a controversy with the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the

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astounding statement made by him to the people of Stamford. The every prophecy which he (Mr. Labouchere) and others entertaining the some opinion had made, had been fully carried out. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman what was the state of the shipbuilding trade in this country at the present moment, because if the shipbuilding trade was flourishing, the prospects of the shipowners could not be so desperate as the right hon. Gentleman had attempted to represent them. He had no doubt the right hon. President of the Board of Trade had looked into a document in his department, which he (Mr. Labouchere) had thought it his duty to collect, with regard to the present state of the shipbuilding interest, and he would fearlessly assert, that at no period of the history of this country had there been greater activity in the shipbuilding yards than at the present moment. It was said that the consequence of the change would be to transfer shipbuilding to our foreign rivals. But what had been the case during the last two years? Last year 10,000 tons of foreign shipping were admitted to British registry, and this year between 8,000 and 9,000 tons of foreign shipping had been so admitted. On the river Thames we at present were building, on foreign account, a greater amount of tonnage than foreigners ad built for us during the whole of the past year. He denied emphatically, therefore, that the repeal of the Navigation Laws gave foreigners any advantage over the shipbuilding interest of this country.
MR. G. P. YOUNGfelt that he would be abandoning the position he had ever held on this question if he were not to meet the statements of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) with a direct and positive contradiction. He affirmed that the shipbuilding trade in this country, and in the port of London in particular, was in a most disastrous condition. The only exception was the foreign orders now executing for ships of war, and not for the merchant service; and the same depression existed in all the ports of the kingdom. A return, giving an account of the British and foreign tonnage employed in the foreign trade of this country, had been laid on the table of the House a few days ago; and he must say he did not understand how the hon. Member for Stoke-upon-Trent (Mr. J. L. Ricardo) could make light of the reliance to be placed upon percentage calculations with such a document as this staring him in the face. The hon. Gentleman,
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however, had no objection to refer to percentage calculations, when he found them likely to answer his own purpose. By this return he (Mr. G. F. Young) found that the amount of British shipping entered inwards in 1849 was 4,390,375 tons; in 1851, 4,388,245 tons, being a decrease of 2,130 tons in two years. Then, how stood the foreign entries? In 1849 there were entered inwards of foreign shipping 1,680,894 tons; and, in 1851, 2,599,988 tons, being an increase of 919,094 tons. If the state of public business and of his own health had permitted, it was his intention to have moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the effect of the repeal of the Navigation Laws on the navigation of this country. He hoped that inquiry was only postponed, and, if it pleased God, he pledged himself to bring this subject under discussion in a new Parliament. In the meantime, he only hoped the House would suspend its judgment, and not receive as undeniable the statements that were so often made by Gentlemen on the other side on this question.
MR. W. BROWN: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control, if he thought it a misfortune to this country that since 1844 British ships had increased 50 percent.; and also, whether he thought it a misfortune that last year the British registered tonnage was the largest on record, exceeding that of any previous year? I take the official return of British vessels with cargoes both inwards and outwards: in 1844 it was 5,691,680 tons, in 1851 8,535,252 tons, making a gain in 1851 over 1844 of 2,843,572 tons. There were launched last year in the port of Sunderland alone 146 vessels, 51,923 tons; and there were on the stocks, on the 1st of this year, 73 vessels, 27,955 tons. Then let us take the incceased tonnage of all nations trading to our ports: for three years before 1848 it was 1,131,000 tons, and for the three years after 1848 it was 2,841,000 tons, being of British 936,000 tons, and of foreign 774,000 tons; but the most remarkable feature in the case is, that in comparing the month of February 1850 with the month of February 1851, British tonnage had increased 37,000 tons, and foreign decreased 10,000 tons: these facts are well known and too patent to every one to be set aside. I therefore cannot believe that shipowners, who are men of common sense, would go on increasing their tonnage as they are doing, if their

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business be so ruinous as it is stated to be. I do not think that it is injurious to the shipping interest of this country, in case of an exigency such as the late famine, if foreign vessels come to our aid, induced by high freights, for such events would otherwise stimulate an unnecessary increase of British shipping more than our ordinary trade requires; when that exigency ceased, the unavoidable consequences would be, that an over-supply of British vessels competing with each other, would reduce the freights so low as greatly to injure their owners. If I understand the right hon. Gentleman, he has given up the idea of protection altogether, but hints at some relief. I am as desirous as he can be to remove all oppressive light-dues and other charges, as well as unnecessary restrictions and burdens of every kind, so that we may be fully able to meet the competition of every nation; and in aid of this I shall be a most willing party.
MR. HUDSONbegged to call particular attention to a petition which he had presented to that House from the shipbuilders of Sunderland, complaining that although they were fully occupied, yet they were pursuing their trade at a considerable loss, that they were in fact suffering considerable distress. They were pursuing their trade with that honourable determination which characterised British merchants, who, in times of commercial depression, ceased not to labour perseveringly, in the hope that better times might reward their industry. He hoped that the Government would devise some means whereby relief might be given to his distressed constituents. They were thankful for a repeal of half of the timber duties, and they looked forward to the day when the remaining half would be repealed, so that every facility might be given to them for pursuing their occupations. He had always thought it was a great hardship to permit foreign manufactured goods to be admitted duty free, whilst raw materials were not allowed to be imported free from duty. He begged to assure the noble Lord lately at the head of the Government, that the whole commercial world would feel exceedingly indebted to him for the forbearance which he had displayed on that occasion, in permitting the supplies necessary for the public service to be granted without delay.
MR. MITCHELLwas very glad that the present Government had expressed their anxiety to relieve the shipping interest from some of the burdens under which
1424
it still laboured. He begged particularly to call their attention to that unfair impost to which it was subjected—he alluded to the light-dues. There was no other country in the world that refused to pay the expense of lighthouses out of the general revenue. And now, particularly, when the shipping of this country had been forced to enter into competition with the whole world, it was but fair that the entire country should bear the burthen of lighting the sea coasts. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford would give his immediate attention to this subject.
MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, as the whole discussion, with respect to the Navigation Laws, had originated in some returns for which he had moved with respect to British tonnage, he hoped he might be allowed to submit some facts on this question to the consideration of the House. The returns which had been granted upon his Motion spoke for themselves, and needed no corroboration; still they did not comprehend the whole facts necessary to illustrate the diminution in the employment of British shipping since the repeal of the navigation laws. He would, therefore, simply lay before the House an account of the total number of vessels that passed the Sound in the years 1848, 1849, and 1850. The whole number of vessels that passed the Sound in 1848, was 16,853; in 1849, the number was 18,955; and in 1850, 19,064, showing an enormous increase in the total navigation through the Sound. And now, as to the number of British vessels that passed the Sound in those years—in 1848, the number was 6,714; in 1849, the number was 6,885; and in 1850, when the repeal of the Navigation Laws was beginning to be felt in this country, the number was only 5,448. Now, he had simply stated these simple figures, and they supplied the answer which he had to make to hon. Gentlemen who would get up and boast of the beneficial effects of the repeal of the Navigation Laws. If the present laws were not altered, and competition should prevail as it did at present, the result inevitably would be a decline of our naval strength.
MR. EWARTsaid, this question ought not to be decided by the effects which the repeal of the Navigation Laws had produced upon the port of Sunderland; it ought to be decided by the effects which had been produced in all the great ports of the Kingdom. Now, with regard to Liverpool, he could assert that the tonnage

1425
there of the past year had exceeded that of 1849 by 10,000 tons. It must not be forgotten that a great change was taking-place in navigation. In a very short time he believed our trading vessels would be propelled by steam. He believed that in the ports of London and Liverpool especially this change was taking place. He did not deny that there were means of giving relief to the shipping interest. The timber duties ought to be repealed, and every facility given to shipbuilders to procure at a cheap rate the raw materials for building vessels. He rejoiced to hear that there was no intention on the part of the present Government to reimpose the Navigation Laws. He believed that such a thing could not be done. Great alarm was expressed as to foreigners ruining our shipping interest if we should repeal the restrictions on shipping; but these alarmists seemed to forget that we possessed iron, capital, enterprise, and skill, to so great an extent that we need entertain no fear whatever of competing with any nation in the world.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERhoped before they came to a division—if such was intended—that he might be allowed to congratulate the House and the country on the announcement of the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), that, to use his own language, there ought not to be any further opposition to granting the supplies. He had been pleased also to hear from the highest authority on that side of the House, namely, the noble Lord the leader of the Opposition, that there was to be no further obstruction to the progress of public business. He could assure the noble Lord that he only did the Government justice in assuming and believing that they had an anxious desire for the proper discharge of the public business. They were not less anxious than the noble Lord that that recurrence to the sense of the people so often spoken of should take place; and they were prepared that it should take place—as he had stated the other night—as soon as those Votes were passed that were necessary for the service of Her Majesty, and those measures carried that they believed to be necessary for the security and good government of Her Majesty's Empire.
MR. WALPOLEsaid, it almost appeared as if the House had lost sight of the Motion brought forward by the hon. and gallant Member for Westminster (Sir De L. Evans). The hon. and gallant Officer was aware that the late Govern-
1426
ment had sanctioned, under certain conditions, the formation of volunteer corps, those conditions being, firstly, that the corps should be equipped and armed at their own expense; and, secondly, that they should be subject to all the rules and regulations of the Volunteer Act. These conditions had been sanctioned by the present Government, with the addition of a third, to the effect that, while the arms were to be furnished at the expense of the corps themselves, they should be subject to such rules and regulations as would insure that they were of the same calibre and of an uniform bore in all the regiments. The hon. and gallant Officer had referred to a letter of his (Mr. Walpole); and he begged to say that the reason why he had written that letter, submitting that the formation of voluntary corps should be suspended, was that a Militia Bill was about to be introduced, and that if such a law was sanctioned by the House, the members of volunteer corps ought to be exempted from its operation. As to the nature of that measure, the House would, of course, excuse him from giving any explanation of it on that occasion. He could assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman, that nothing was further from the intention of the Government than to show any distrust of the people of this country in reference to any volunteer corps which they might undertake to form in the event of a necessity for them.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn; Main Question put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
House in Committee of Supply.
(1.) 3,602,067 l. Charge of the Land Forces.
MR. BERESFORDsaid, the first Vote which he would submit was that of 3,602,067 l., to defray the maintenance of Her Majesty's land forces, which was an increase of 80,997 l. over the sum voted last year. The vote passed last Friday for the number of men (101,937) being an increase of 3,223 over the number voted last year, rendered an increase of expenditure necessary in the present Estimates. In the Estimates of last year the charge for the land forces was 3,521,070 l., and in the present Estimates it amounted to 3,602,067 l., being an increase of 80,997 l. This increase might be briefly explained as follows:—Increased charge of rank and file amounting to 56,660 l.; for annual allowances, 2,809 l.: for extraordinary expenses of agency, 327 l., and for clothing,

1427
7,755 l., making a total of 67,551 l. But there was, on the other hand, a decrease on account of the number of officers of 5,339 l., and of non-commissioned officers of 7,306 l.; total, 12,645 l.; which deducted from the increase, left a sum of 54,906 l. increase. There was, besides, an increase for levy money of 20,000 l., and for field allowances, mainly attributable to the Kafir war, of 11,000 l., which raised the increase to 85,906 l., but which was reduced to 80,906 l. by a decrease of 5,000 l. on some other smaller items.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, there were several items in the Vote on which he had intended to offer some observations, but, as it appeared to be the wish of the Committee to allow the present Government to take the Estimates as they had received them from the late Government, he should let them pass without any comment.
Vote agreed to.
(2.) 169,607 l. for the Staff.
MR. ALCOCKsaid, that though the noble Lord the Member for the city of London had said that he did not mean to throw any impediment in the way of granting the supplies, yet he (Mr. Alcock) did not see what prospect there was of bringing the great commercial question which so much interested the country to an issue, unless some more specific declaration were made on the part of the Government than that House had hitherto been favoured with. He was sorry to have to express his want of confidence in the Government, because many of the individuals composing it were his personal friends, and gentlemen for whom he had the greatest respect. If any hon. Member would like to limit the supplies to a period of three or six months, he (Mr. Alcock) would be perfectly willing to join with him; for he was not satisfied with the statement of Her Majesty's Government, and he saw no more prospect now than there was on Friday last that this question would be settled before next year. If the Committee granted the supplies for a whole year, the question of free-trade might remain in abeyance for that time. He had no confidence in the declaration that bad been made to that House by the Government, because they had now been crying out for six years past that nothing but a return to protection could satisfy the wants of the country; whereas now that they had the power and the opportunity to propose some measure upon the subject, they left the question totally in a state of suspense. Her Majesty's present Government had formerly
1428
exhibited a great desire for a 5s. duty upon corn; but such an expedient would be wholly useless, and the relief afforded by it would not be worth the acceptance of any farmer in this country be he large or small. Let them suppose the case of a farmer with 400 acres of land, which he cultivated in a superior manner. One-fourth of the land would be in wheat, of which there would be say four quarters to the acre. With a duty of 5s. these 400 quarters would be worth about 2s. 6d. a quarter more than under the present system—that is to say, about 50 l. a year additional would go into the pocket of one of the largest farmers in the country, and he would have to deduct from that profit at least 25 l. to make up for the increased price of labour. It was, therefore, impossible to suppose that any one could expect to get more than from 25 l. to 30 l. profit from a 5s. duty on a large farm of 400 acres. The proposition of a 5s. duty was in reality not made for the purpose of assisting the farmers, but with the view of getting in the sharp point of the wedge, in order that the duty might be afterwards increased to 15 s. or 20 s. What he complained of was, that the Protectionists were not sincere in their professions, neither could he consider the Free traders sincere if they did not take this opportunity of forcing the Government to say what it meant to do with respect to the question of free trade, or how soon it would bring the subject before the country for its decision. For his part he ought rather to rejoice that the Protectionist party, now that they were in office, were going against that which they had been speaking in favour of for the last six years, because they might depend upon it that if the Anti-Corn-Law-League should be resuscitated, it would not be revived for the sole purpose of preserving free trade in corn, but it would be put upon a more comprehensive footing, and would be made a Parliamentary Reform and Anti-War League. Under these circumstances he did not think that the supplies ought to be granted to Her Majesty's present Government for the whole year.
MR. FOX MAULEsaid, that he had been unable until that moment to find an opportunity of asking a question of the right hon. Gentleman opposite the Secretary at War. A Committee which sat last year and the year before on the subject of Army expenditure, had recommended it as a matter well worthy of the attention of the late Government whether it might not

1429
resolve to have one medical establishment for the whole Army, and another for the Ordnance. The Committee had reported that as far as they could judge they thought that this would be an expedient measure. When he (Mr. F. Maule) was in the War Office, he had consulted the head of the Army Medical Department, and had learned from him that so far as he could see, there would be no difficulty in adopting the recommendation of the Committee. A joint Committee consisting of Army and Ordnance officers had been appointed under the directions of his right hon. Friend who succeeded him in the War Office (Mr. V. Smith), to consider the question. He (Mr. F. Maule) was not aware whether that Committee had yet made their Report; but he felt quite sure that the proposed measure, if it could be adopted, would be one that would tend to economy, as well as conduce to the venience of the Army generally. He begged to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman opposite had had his attention directed to the subject?
MR. BERESFORDsaid, that be had made inquiries respecting this recommendation of the Committee on Army expenditure, and the answer which he had received was, that a Committee was at that moment sitting upon the subject. He had not yet received the Report of that Committee, but should give his best attention to the subject when the Committee should have made their Report.
MR. MACGREGORwould suggest that a reduction might safely be made in the strength of the garrisons in the North American Colonies. He had no hesitation in saying that the present peace and loyalty of those Colonies were owing to the responsible constitutions which had been given to them by the noble Lord the Member for London when he was Secretary of State for the Colonies. As the Estimates had been all carefully prepared by the late Government, he (Mr. Macgregor) would suggest that they should be allowed to pass as they were without opposition.
Vote agreed to; as were the following:—
(3.) 95,957 l. Public Departments.
(4.) 17,141 l. Royal Military College.
(5.) 17,536 l., Royal Military Asylum and Hibernian Military School.
(6.) 84,000 l., Volunteer Corps.
(7.) 15,643 l., Rewards for Military Service.
(8.) 61,000 l., Army Pay, General Officers.
(9.) 50,000 l., Full Pay, Retired Officers.
(10.) 365,000 l., Half Pay and Military Allowances.
(11.) 36,916 l., Foreign Half Pay.
(12.) 119,387 l. Widows' Pensions.
(13.) 83,000 l., Compassionate List
(14.) 28,815 l., In-Pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals.
MR. GROGANwished to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the discussions that took place last year upon this subject. He perceived that a considerable reduction had been made in the number of pensioners in Kilmainham Hospital. That, he believed, resulted in consequence of a letter written by the late Secretary at War (Mr. F. Maule). The subject was one of great interest and importance to the citizens of Dublin, and to the army serving in Ireland. The late Government were, he believed, most anxious that this institution should be abolished, and if the letter to which he had referred was not recalled, the hospital would soon be put an end to. His object now was to obtain a promise, if he could, from the present Government that that establishment would be kept up. In saying so much he believed that he was but speaking the sentiments of every Irish Member in that House, who concurred in deprecating the system of centralisation which characterised the policy of the late Government.
MR. BERESFORDsaid, that this subject had engaged his attention before he had the honour of being connected with the Government. He acknowledged that his nationality had greatly influenced his vote on former occasions in opposing the efforts made by the late Government to abolish Kilmainham Hospital. But now that he was Secretary at War he did not think that he would be quite justified in going against the recommendation of that House in declining to adopt the Estimate as he found it. He only wished he had the power now of recalling the letter which had been written by the former Secretary at War upon this subject. He did not think he could give any further explanation upon the subject.
MR. FOX MAULEwas glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman intended to adopt the recommendation of the House upon this subject. The question had been discussed more than once, and it had been fully inquired into by a Committee that had sat more than two years. They

1431
came to the decided opinion that the two establishments were unnecessary for the service of the Army. He could easily believe that Irishmen might feel somewhat sore at the reduction of such an establishment; but at the same time it might be devoted to some other public purpose in Ireland, far more useful to the Irish people than it was at present. It was proposed to convert it to the purpose of an artillery barrack. He willingly confessed it was the object of the late Government, neither more nor less, than to do away with it altogether. The letter which he had written on the subject was for the purpose of preventing the vacancies as they occurred in the hospital being filled up. The late Government intended that there should be only one establishment for the retired soldiers of the Army. He was informed that, even if he had not written that letter, the number in the Hospital would necessarily have been reduced, from the circumstance of there being but few applications from pensioners to get into it.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERcould assure the hon. Member for the city of Dublin that he quite sympathised with him in the view which he took of this subject. It was, however, considered desirable, under present circumstances, that no alteration should be made in the Estimates of their predecessors; but he did not wish the hon. Member to understand that the Government were opposed to a reconsideration of the question. The question wonld be reconsidered in a fair and candid spirit, whether the Government could, consistently with their views, take such a course as would have the effect of continuing Kilmainham Hospital for the purposes for which it was originally established.
MR. HUMEwas sorry to hear such a statement from the right hon. Gentleman; for if any question met with general unanimity, it was that regarding the propriety of abolishing this Hospital. It was quite unnecessary for the right hon. Gentleman to make such an observation as had just fallen from him. He hoped that before the Government would reconsider the recommendation that they had come to on the subject, they would first inquire whether there was any evidence that could set aside the strong facts that had already been laid before them.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he was certain that the people of Dublin would be most happy at hearing the Chancellor of the
1432
Exchequer declare that the question would be reconsidered. Nothing could be more unpopular in Ireland than the attempt to remove Kilmainham Hospital, because it was unjust. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. F. Maule) that there were several pensioners most anxious to enter the Hospital. As an Irishman and a soldier he felt grateful to the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer for saying that the Government intended to reconsider this question.
SIR HENRY BARRONalso begged to express his satisfaction at the announcement of the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer. The hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) said that the Committee had been unanimous in their opinion that Kilmainham Hospital should be abolished. He (Sir H. Barron) had always remarked that there was perfect unanimity amongst English and Scotch Members on every subject connected with Ireland. If it was proposed to do away with any Scotch establishment, they should have the hon. Member for Montrose, and other Scotch Members, urging most excellent reasons for its preservation.
MR. FORBESmust disclaim, on the part of the Scotch Members, the feeling attributed to them by the hon. Baronet the Member for Waterford.
MR. HUMEchallenged the hon. Baronet the Member for Waterford to mention a single instance in which he (Mr. Hume) had objected to any proposal tending to the real benefit of Ireland.
COLONEL FREE STUNbegged to ask the hon. and gallant Member for Portar-lington (Colonel Dunne) whether he intended to bring forward his annual Motion about the Guards in the course of the present Session?
COLONEL DUNNEcould not give the hon. and gallant Member any promise upon the subject.
MR. W. WILLIAMSthought that if half of the sum now proposed were divided among the pensioners, and they were allowed to live with their relations, they would be far more comfortable than they were at present.
Vote agreed to; as were also—
(15.) 1,226,803 L., Out-Pensioners, Chelsea Hospital, &c.
(16.) 37,500 l., Superannuation Allowances.

SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
(17.) 134,633 l., Admiralty Office.
SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, that in all his experience, during seventeen or eighteen years of the votes on the Navy Estimates, he had never known such large Estimates voted by that House without any explanation being offered by the Government, respecting the administrative affairs of the Admiralty. He must, however, congratulate the officers and the Navy generally on the appointment of an officer in their own service to the head of the Admiralty Board; and he had no doubt the appointment of the noble Duke (the Duke of Northumberland) would be highly satisfactory to the country. He also rejoiced at the selection of another officer as a member of the Board, whose conduct and gallantry during the late war had been greatly distinguished—he alluded to Admiral Sir Hyde Parker. He wished, however, at the same time, to put a few questions as to the intentions of the Government. First, what did the Board intend to do with regard to the iron steamers and the patronage of the dockyards? Next, as to the African squadron—he knew that the Admiralty Board were not responsible for the policy of maintaining that squadron on the African coast; but what he wanted to know was, whether the Board meant to keep the vessels of that squadron in its present efficient state? Next, with regard to the system of retirement which had been so strongly denounced last May and last August by the Earl of Hardwicke, the Duke of Northumberland, Lord Talbot, and Lord Colchester, in another place, who complained of the grievous hardship of placing on the retired list those gallant officers who had commanded sloops of war for many years, and also for some time rated ships, and who were told at last that they were not eligible for a flag. because they had not commanded the latter class of ships for a certain period. Now, that these noble Lords had attained office, he wished to know whether these grievances were to be redressed by them? He also wished to know whether the new Government intended to imitate the policy of their predecessors in restricting the entry of cadets, and in resisting the applications of duchesses and marchionesses who so eagerly importuned the Admiralty to obtain appointments in the service for their protegees? Another point in which he sought for information was with respect to the disgraceful system of smuggling specie from the coast of Mexico. This system was at once a scandal to the character
1434
of British officers, and a source of the grossest favouritism and partiality. On the Pacific station, from 1847 to 1849, upwards of 17.000 l. out of 30,000 l. was paid to the Captains of the Frolic, Carysfort, Cormorant, and three other vessels—their shares being nearly equal to what was received during the time for the benefit of Greenwich Hospital. He had obtained the Official Returns on the subject, from which he found that since the year 1819 the sum of 1,454,504 l. had been paid by the public and the merchants of this country for the conveyance of specie from foreige ports; and out of that sum, as much as 729,500 l. had been received by the captains of the vessels for conveying the treasure, and a further sum of 363,525 l. had been paid as the share of the admirals and the commodore on the several foreign stations where the treasure was embarked. Greenwich Hospital was entitled to receive one-fourth of the whole freight-money, which would amount to 365,626 l. Now lie suggested that they should have left to Greenwich Hospital all the advantage it at present derived from the system, and that the whole of the remainder, 1,090,878 l., should have been applied to the formation of a fund for the benefit of the officers on the retired list, and to increase the pay and pensions of those officers who had been distinguished as first lieutenants. With regard to an invasion, neither he nor his constituents had much fear of it. He thought the Navy of this country was able to defend it if properly managed, and he objected to increasing the expenditure of our defensive establishments until we had made a proper use of the ships we already had. Hon. Gentlemen on the Ministerial side, a few years ago, used to tell the House that we ought to have a fleet in the Downs, at Portsmouth, and other parts of the coast, because the towns on the southern coast might be bombarded, and the Cossacks might land and commit the greatest havoc. He wished now to ask them whether they meant to leave our fleet scattered about distant parts of the globe, or to concentrate it in our own waters? Some statement of this nature he thought was due from them to the House.
MR. STAFFORDsaid, he was far from complaining of the questions put by the hon, and gallant Member, and hoped that any imperfections in his replies would not he attributed to unwillingness to answer, but to inexperience. Before commencing his attempt to reply, he would

1435
assure the Committee that it was from no feeling of disrespect that he did not on a former occasion enter at length into a statement respecting the naval affairs of the country, but from a desire to meet the views of the Committee, that the sooner the Estimates were voted the better. Even the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) had concurred in that view, in order to approximate the dissolution of Parliament. He was glad to hear the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Sir G. Pechell) express his confidence in the noble Lord at the head of the Board, and in the gallant Admiral the first sea Lord, and he (Mr. Stafford) should take great pleasure in communicating the fact to them, as the commendation came from one whom they must consider a good judge. The hon. and gallant Gentleman certainly showed a considerable belief in their powers, when he assumed that they had been able in the ten days during which they had held office, they and their secretary, and that secretary a landsman, to acquire sufficient knowledge to answer some of the most difficult questions connected with the naval service. Respecting iron steamers, to which the first question referred, he must tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the Board had considerable reluctance to continue building them, With regard to dockyard promotions, he must confess that of all the questions which had come under his notice, that was one which had impressed itself upon his mind as of the very greatest importance. Since he had been in office, he had adopted the principle of filling up no appointments in the dockyards, except upon the express opinion in favour of the party of the officer in command, or of the superintendent or master under whom the candidate had worked. Another evil in the dockyard system he was prepared to remedy as far as he could, and that was the system of a set of men rising, without reference to other considerations, from step to step. The consequence was that, as a general rule, our dockyards were behind other dockyards with regard to the latest inventions. He hoped, however, that means would soon be taken to remedy this. As to the African squadron, he admitted that, if it was to be maintained at all—about which he would not at that moment give any opinion—it ought to be efficiently maintained. With regard to the system of nominating cadets, he had to state that it was the intention of the Government to
1436
make it strictly limited, and that in this respect they would follow the course which was pursued by the late Administration. The promotion of mates would of course depend on the efficiency of the cadets. The freight of specie, the evil to which the hon. and gallant Member had referred to, was one which bade fair to remedy itself, as there was less and less coming in this way, and therefore he did not see the urgent necessity of an Administration, which had hardly been ten days in office, coming to any determination about it. He believed he had now answered all the questions of the hon. and gallant Baronet.
ADMIRAL BERKELEYsaid, that, although he did not regret that there was no discussion on the Naval Estimates the other night, he felt that it would be becoming in him, as the Board to which he had belonged prepared these Estimates, to say something in favour of the late Board, after the enormous quantity of abuse which had been heaped upon them, both by certain Gentlemen on the other side of the House, and by the public press in general. And here he begged to say, that after all the abuse that had been heaped upon the late Board, he was astonished that the present Board of Admiralty had taken upon themselves to adopt the Estimates of their predecessors. He would begin with the case of the Megœra. That he thought had been satisfactorily settled by the right hon. Baronet the late First Lord of the Admiralty, and he did not think that many more words, if any, were necessary on that subject. He conceived that the answer of his right hon. Friend had sufficiently disposed of all the infamous stories which had been invented about that vessel. He would next come to the subject on which there was a Committee then sitting—he meant the subject of the stinking meats. The hon. Baronet who brought forward that Motion stated that the Government ought, particularly at this time, to look to the comfort of the seamen; and, although he did not say so directly, he intimated that the late Board of Admiralty had grossly neglected their duty in consequence of what had taken place with regard to the preserved meats. Now, without anticipating the answer which would be given by the Committee then sitting on the subject, he thought the beat answer he could give to the accusations was, that the officer, a late colleague of his, who presided over the transport de-

1437
partment, who made the contracts which were complained of, and who conducted the whole of the business of that department with as much benefit to the country as credit to himself, had been chosen out of the ranks of the late Board to fill the same office by the present Government. If that was not a practical answer to the accusation to which he had referred, he did not know where one could be found. Again, it was stated that the late Board of Admiralty had misconducted the transport of troops from Ireland to the Cape; and the expression used was, that "a noble regiment was sacrificed through the neglect of the Admiralty." This had occurred, as was alleged, from the condition of the ship in which the regiment was embarked, and which was described as "an old, rotten, worn-out ship, where there was malaria, effluvia, stinking meat, and everything that was bad;" and well did he recollect the cheers that were given whenever "the Hungarian Jew" was mentioned. Now, what were the facts? The regiment referred to (the 59th) was at the time of the famine recruited in Ireland, and consisted chiefly of raw recruits. They had been placed in a barrack where the cholera had been, and, unfortunately, that disease broke out in the ship, the Apollo, in the course of the voyage. The result, he admitted, was disastrous; but the couduct of Commander Rawstorne, the officer in command of the Apollo, was such that he received the thanks of the Duke of Wellington for his zealous exertions in contributing, in so far as lay in his power, to alleviate the distress caused by the disease which prevailed among the troops on that occasion. He felt it also due to Commander Rawstorne to read the following extract from a letter addressed to him by the colonel of the regiment:—
"During the whole period of my service (and my first trip with troops was in 1816, with my own county militia to Ireland), I have never seen anything to equal the cleanliness, comfort, and regularity I have observed in the Apollo, except in Her Majesty's ship Belleisle, 7A; and I do not think it was surpassed even in that large ship. Indeed, I consider the accommodation for married officers preferable in this vessel."
It had been said that the Admiralty were so ignorant as to what they were about that they could not convey troops from England to the Cape; and, by way of contrast to their incapacity, it had been stated that the French Government had conveyed a large body of troops from France to Civita Vecchia. Why, they
1438
might as well compare the ascent of Primrose-hill to that of Mont Blanc as to compare the conveyance of troops from France to Civita Vecchia, with those from England to the Cape. The fact was, that the late Board had had occasion to send troops to the Cape on six different occasions in the middle of winter, and not one accident had happened to any one of them. But it was said they managed matters so badly that their steamers were always breaking down. Now, he held in his hand a return which showed that out of their large steam fleet only three vessels broke down in the course of the year 1850–51—the year particularly referred to in the complaints which were made against them; while from another return he found that in the six steampacket companies, which had not one-third the number of vessels at sea that the Government had, the number which broke down in the same period was twenty, He could hardly have believed that the stories which had been circulated about the Navy could have obtained the credit they had done. He was indeed surprised at the gullibility of the public. Yet these things were alleged, and these things were believed; and therefore he hoped the Committee would forgive him for trespassing on their time to rebut them by facts. They were told by the hon. Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) that they did not know how to manage the men committed to their charge, nor where to place them. But was it to be supposed that a set of professional men, with the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Baring) at their head, would have left the country in the defenceless condition in which it was supposed to be? The fact was, that during all the time of the outcry about the danger of a surprise and the inefficiency of the Navy, although the Admiralty did not make any fuss about their proceedings, yet he would stake his existence that if the necessity had arisen, they could, in twenty-four hours, have covered the Channel from the North Foreland to the Channel Islands with a fleet of steamers within signal distance of each other. So much for the danger of a surprise. He admitted, however, that we ought to have a greater force in the Channel than we had, for if we were to have a war, the Channel ought to be in such a state as to be a place of refuge for a friendly flag, and a hornets' nest to our enemies. He now came to a point which was not for the Admiralty, but for that House and the

1439
country to decide. He thought we ought to have—and that we were not safe without it—a reserve of seamen at all times, at least to the tune of 5,000, that we could lay our hands upon when wanted.
MR. W. WILLIAMSthought that no one who looked over the immense expenditure which had taken place last year, and had noticed the manner in which it had been applied, could coincide with the eulogium which the gallant Admiral who had just sat down had passed upon the late Board of Admiralty. He could not conceive how the Channel could be covered with ships of war within twenty-four hours, when he saw by the last Navy List, published on the 1st of January, that there were only twenty-two vessels in commission in all the ports in or near the United Kingdom; that of these only six were line-of-battle ships—four of the line-of-battle ships which carried the flags of the Port Admirals being only partially manned; and that there were beside three screw steamers of large dimensions. The people of England had been accustomed to look to the Navy as their bulwark against foreign invasion from the time of Alfred; but they had now ceased to take it into consideration, and were seeking for a military force equal to meet the largest force that France could bring against us. That was not a state in which we should be after the sums of money which we had expended on this force. Since the termination of the war no less a sum than 220,000,000 l. had been voted for the Navy, independent of the armaments which were supplied by the Ordnance. Out of this 9,800,000 l. had been expended on the dockyards, which at the close of the war were capable of containing our then fleet of 666 vessels. Then there were such jobs as Keyham Harbour, on which 1,250,000 l. was to be, and 800,000 had already been, spent. 58,000,000 l. had been expended on materials for shipbuilding and wages of workmen in the dockyards. And what had we to show for the last item? Why, only 620 vessels of all sorts and sizes, either built or in progress; and he believed that a private shipbuilder could have provided them for half the money which they had cost the nation. He thought that the Admiralty Board was very badly constituted. He thought a naval officer should always be at its head, who would have a strong feeling for the interest and character of the service, and would not confine himself to jobbing away the patronage, and to defending mismanagement.
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But the fact was that the civil Lords did not understand the management of such immense concerns, and the time of the distinguished naval officers who had a seat at the Board was wasted in attendance at that House, and they were thus prevented from giving their exclusive attention to the different departments of the service, and from introducing those improvements which he believed they would otherwise do. We had expended last year 5,700,000 l., and all we had to show was 142 vessels in commission, some of which were only tenders, and the majority were under twenty guns, only seventeen being sail of the line, and four or five of these being but partially manned, as he had stated previously, as Port Admiral's ships. He could not imagine how all this money was expended with so little to show for it. The Estimates for the present year were 5,600,000 l., of which only 2,000,000 l. was devoted to the effective service; the rest was to be wasted on the dockyards, and on the half-pay and pension lists. In 1822, when a great promotion took place, after the termination of the war, the half-pay and pension list was actually less than at present, being then 1,340,900 l. and now, 1,354,000 l. The cause of this was evident, when he saw that to command these 142 vessels in commission, we had no fewer than 245 admirals, so that there were two Admirals to each ship; and they had 584 Captains, and 911 Commanders, giving about ten of these officers to each vessel. The half-pay and pension list had been enormously added to by the arrangements with respect to the retirement of Admirals in 1846 and 1851. Out of the 1,354,000 l. devoted to this list, only 202,000 l. was for warrant officers and seamen, leaving 1,152,000 l. for the superior officers, an amount totally uncalled for by the justice of the case. With regard to the proposed reserve of 5,000 men, it had been stated that they would be thrown into the merchant navy, in order to represent to the seamen in the mercantile marine the great advantages of the Royal service. He did not think that would be the result of the measure. He should like to know how it was that the British Admiralty could not man a line-of-battle ship in less than three or four months, while the American navy could obtain as many of our best seamen as they desired. He attributed this fact to the tyranny exercised by some of the British commanders, though he was perfectly satisfied that many of our officers

1441
were good and excellent men. He a short time since brought before the House the case of a sailor who was shot by command of the captain of a British man-of-war. He had put a question on the subject to the hon. Secretary to the Admiralty, who fished up a long account with which he came down to the House, Now, he (Mr. W. Williams) was prepared to say, from information he had received, that the facts were as he had stated them, namely, that a Marine was ordered to shoot a seaman who was swimming ashore to desert; that he missed the man; that he was peremptorily ordered to fire again, and that the man was shot dead. [An Hon MEMBER: No, no!] Well, so persons said who were on board the Inconstant, at any rate; and he begged to ask the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty where he obtained the information he had given to the House, and whether he had searched the log of the Inconstant, and if so what was the description given of that event?
MR. TRELAWNYhad no objection to the number of men proposed to be voted for the Navy, but he contended that that force ought not to cost the country more than 2,000,000 l. a year. He formed his opinion from the amount of wages given to able and efficient seamen in the merchant or yachting service, which was about 1l. a week, say 50 l. a year: thus 40,000 efficient seamen might be obtained for 2,000,000 l. per annum; and as ships should be obtained at 1,000 l. a gun, 1,000,000 l. per annum should provide them with ten ships of 100 guns each. A line-of-battle ship should last seventy years, that being the age of the Canopus, one of the best ships we had. He had heard, however, at Plymouth, of instances in which ships had been rotten in the bows before they were sent to sea. Many of the numerous alterations in the ships had now no doubt become necessary; and by turning large shins into screw steamers they could now be placed in position whether the wind was favourable or adverse. He thought a great error had been committed in having the works at Keyham, instead of at Millbay, where there was already a dock for mercantile purposes, which was being partially filled up; so that an immense sum of money had been wasted in making one dock, and filling up another. It was proposed to spend 1,220,000 l. upon these works; and of this 833,000 l. had been already spent, and a further sum of 40,000 l. was included in the Estimates for the present year. He
1442
could not see the good of taking a miserable sum like this, if Keyham was to be proceeded with at all. It was, he thought, but fair to the late Government to say that the faults of the reserve steam fleet were not chargeable on them. That fleet was created during the invasion panic, and the consequence was that the vessels were badly built, and that engines of too great power were placed in them. He believed that the same remark also applied to the works at Keyham. Notwithstanding all the money that had been lavished on the arsenal at Plymouth, he believed that it was yet undefended on the land side. An enemy would have nothing to do but land in Whitsand Bay, and cross the headlands, and he might then fire the ships, and shell the dockyard and the defences; though he admitted they perfectly protected the harbour from any attack from the sea. He wished to know whether it was the intention of the present Board of Admiralty, when a ship came off a foreign station, to send her to sea as she then was, in her most perfect state, and with the same crew, and without dismantling her? They were going to expend 782,495 l. for stores, and 634,574 l. for artificers' wages in the naval, and 32,355 l. for artificers' wages in the victualling yard; total 1,449,324 l. Now, that should give us fourteen line-of-battle ships, according to the estimate he had already given. Had we built at that rate for twenty years, what a fleet we should now have had! We had not, however, got a quarter of that after expending this sum annually during thirty-seven years of peace.
ADMIRAL BOWLESsaid, that the Canopus had nothing but the name in common with the ship that was taken at the battle of the Nile. There was not a timber of the original ship left; it had, in fact, been rebuilt many times over: so that the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Trelawny) was quite incorrect in supposing that a line-of-battle ship would last seventy years. When a ship was twelve years old, it required a repair equal to one-third or one-fourth of its value. He differed, also, from the hon. Member with regard to the value of Keyham Harbour, the situation of which was much finer than Millbay; in fact, it was not possible to have a finer site for an arsenal than that which would be occupied by these works, the construction of which was rendered necessary by the fact that there was not previously any accommodation for the building or the repairing of steam vessels; nor could the accommoda-

1443
tion have been obtained at the old arsenal. It was a magnificent work, which would be applauded by those who succeeded us as a proof of the foresight of the late Sir Robert Peel, who planned it when Prime Minister. He thought that it should be pushed on as fast as possible, and that the factories—which he was sorry to hear from the late First Lord of the Admiralty were to be delayed—should be built at once; so that the works might be at once completed, in case they should be required. He had not the least idea where the gallant Admiral (Admiral Berkeley) would find the means to cover the Channel with steam vessels within signal distance at twenty-four hours' notice: and with all due respect to the late Admiralty, he could not but think that, when they went out of office, there was not in any English port any ship of force ready to go to sea; and had we not recalled the fleet from Lisbon, we should have been in the same state still. He thought that, for the safety and honour of the country, we should have at least 5,000 more seamen than at present. Nothing could be more absurd than that a great nation which had been allowing 5,00O,000 l. a year for its Navy, should grudge an additional 200,000 l. or 300,000 l., which would make the whole thing efficient, and place the country in a state of security. He must add, that he hoped neither the House nor the country would suppose that the proposed naval reserve would add a single man to the effective force. He must confess he did not understand the scheme himself, and he had never seen any body who did; but there could be no doubt that not one of our ships would be manned by the proposed plan.
ADMIRAL BERKELEYwas sure that his hon. and gallant Friend who had just sat down would not give a contradiction to that to which he (Admiral Berkeley) had pledged his professional character. He pledged himself that, within twenty-four hours after a requisition had been made to the late Board of Admiralty, the steamers would have been found, and armed, in all respects ready for sea, and would, in fact, have been at sea covering the Channel from the North Foreland to the Channel Islands. He repeated that statement. The same means were in the hands of the present Board of Admiralty; and they could do it when they pleased. He took no credit to himself or those who acted with him for this scheme, which was originally formed during the Administration, he believed, of the late Sir Robert Peel.
ADMIRAL BOWLESsaid, that he was far from wishing to doubt one word of what his hon. and gallant Friend had said. He quite believed that this might be done, if he said so.
MR. W. WILLIAMSwished to know where these steamers were to be found? There was not a sufficient number in commission, according to the last Navy List.
SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, this only showed that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Williams) was speaking upon a subject of which he knew nothing. The hon. Member merely looked at the last edition of the Navy List, and not finding the steamers in commission conceived it impossible that they should be ready at an hour's notice. But the statement of his hon. and gallant Friend (Admiral Berkeley) was not that they were in commission, but that in twenty-four hours the vessels could be manned, armed, and made ready for sea. In short, they were "advanced" vessels. [Mr. W. WILLIAMS: That's quite an explanation.] Well, is that not what the hon. Member wanted? [Mr. W. WILLIAMS: Yes, yes; but the hon. and gallant Admiral did not give it.] These vessels were in a state of advance, capable of being ready when wanted. The men were ready, and the ships were ready. With regard to the works at Keyham, it must be remembered that the slow progress made with them arose from the recommendation of a Committee which sat in 1848. Now, there were some hon. Gentlemen who thought that by placing our fleets in the Channel greater security would be given to this country, but he must say that was not entirely his impression; and as this was a subject upon which the late Government had been very much assailed, it might be worth hon. Gentlemen's while to listen a little to the other side of the question. It was supposed that if we recalled our fleet from the Mediterranean, and had constantly a large force in the Channel, we should secure ourselves entirely from any hostile attack. Much had been said upon the subject lately; but it did not seem to him that the result of calling our ships home would have been that which was desired. It must be remembered that there was no appearance of activity in the opposite ports; there was nothing in the northern parts of France which ought to have occasioned us the slightest uneasiness, and we had in our own ports sufficient to meet any emergency. If we were to call our large ships home, we must not be surprised if

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France followed our example, called her steamers from the Mediterranean, and collected her force in the northern ports. He (Sir F. Baring) did not think we should have added one jot to our security by having a large force in the Channel, He had thought it right to say this; but, as for the attacks out of doors upon the Board of Admiralty, it was not worth while to enter upon the defence now: the time was gone by when it would have been of the slightest value. He had no doubt those who had succeeded to that department had the utmost zeal for the service. He (Sir F. Baring) had been able to reduce the Estimates by 1,500,000 l.; there were those who thought still more reduction could be made, and he hoped it could, but he was not so sanguine as to believe that the new Board would be able to make the same statement.
CAPTAIN SCOBELLsaid, it appeared to him that some of the observations which had been made as to the late Board of Admiralty were not very true, though he believed there had been some abuses in the management of the dockyards, and considerable want of judgment in building ships. It was not his intention, however, to enter into those matters then. His object was to make a few practical observations to the Committee. The Estimates before the Committee were made up by the late Board of Admiralty, and accepted by the present Board of Admiralty. There could be no dispute about that. The question, then, to be considered was, how they were to spend their money in future. They had been congratulated upon having a naval officer at the head of the Admiralty. While giving every credit for good intentions to the present head of the Admiralty, he must say that he would agree much more in those congratulations if the head of the Admiralty were not a Parliamentary or political man, and if the appointments and promotions in the Navy were not dispensed—not by the fault of the head of the Admiralty, but by the fault of the system—among those who have interest in preference, in many cases at least, to those who possess merit. The next subject he wished to call the attention of the Committee to was, how the list of officers stands as to efficiency; and for that purpose he would first call the attention of the Committee as to how the Navy List stood in 1795. We had then 91 admirals, 420 captains, 197 commanders, and 1,395 lieutenants, making 2,103 offi-
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cers; we had at that time 101 line-of-battle ships in commission, and those officers were found amply sufficient to carry on all the operations in the Navy. If they looked at the present list—though he knew that alterations had been made in the right direction by the late Board of Admiralty—they found there was still an active list of 100 admirals. But were they sure that those admirals were all active men? He believed that a great many of them, though able and gallant officers, were, through age and infirmity, unfit to go afloat. Without dwelling upon the number of officers they now had, he would rather take the number it is intended they should have, and that number he found to be, as he had stated, 100 admirals; but he was satisfied that fifty would be quite enough. There were only twelve employed now, so that even if they retained only fifty, it would take twelve years to give each admiral three years' employment. The post captains were to be 350. It would take sixteen years to give each of these officers three years at sea, and thirteen years on shore on the average. The commanders' list was to be reduced to 450, and dividing those 450 by the number employed, it would just take the same number of years for them, that is, three years at sea, and thirteen years on; and by the lieutenants' list, he found those officers would get afloat three years out of the nine. Then he came to the bottom of the list, and he found there were in the Navy between 800 and 900 mates, midshipmen, and cadets. A great fault at the Admiralty was, that there were so many all seeking for promotion, and that three-fourths of the officers in Her Majesty's Navy lived and died in the rank of lieutenants, and more than half the number of commanders never attained a higher rank. Now, if the First Lord of the Admiralty wanted to choose seventy post-captains, he had 350 to choose from, and he can keep back the promotion of any man he pleases from the rank of an active admiral. These things, he believed, would never be perfectly cured till the Navy was emancipated from political shackles, and placed, as the Army is, under a chief who will not be compelled to resign office at every change of Ministry. Looking to what may be practically done to sustain the efficiency of the Navy, he was of opinion that our ships are paid off too frequently. He believed the custom was to pay the ships of the Navy off every three years, or

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perhaps they might serve four years, if required for some special service. It was only last January that they paid off the Ganges of 80 guns, the Portland of 44 guns, the Champion of 26 guns, and the Gorgon, a 10 gun steamer—in all 160 guns, and a complement of 1,200 men—in the course of one month, and the men were sent adrift. He also wished to know what was to prevent their enlisting seamen for a longer period than at present—for five, or seven, or fourteen years, as they enlist soldiers? They would then have men who would not be constantly leaving the Navy. Look at the Rodney. She was at that moment in Portsmouth harbour, and though she was commissioned last August, she had not been to sea yet. What was to prevent their taking men for a longer period of service? He would let the period extend to fourteen years, and he would take no man for less than five years, and he would pay them some bounty for seven or ten or fourteen years' service, as the marines are paid. The first year was taken up in teaching the men. The second year they begin to shake themselves into their places, and the third year they were fit to fight any ship that ever floated; and then it was that the sailor was brought home—the admiral reviewed the crew, said the ship was in beautiful order, and the crew in fine condition, and then the ship was dismantled, and the men paid off. He thought the proposed reserve ought to consist of at least 10,000 men, that was to say 8,000 seamen and 2,000 petty officers, and out of that number they could easily get 6,000 or 7,000 men when they were actually wanted. A great deal had been said about the vulnerability of this kingdom to invasion. He had lately stated to the House his general opinion upon that subject. His opinion was, that though it would be wise to make some provision at home, yet they need not he frightened as long as they could keep a good Navy afloat. They should not only have the ships ready, but they should have the men on board, and the ships out cruising, not lying in port, but practising so as to be ready to meet the enemy, if an enemy should come. From a calculation he had made, he found that 8,000 officers, seamen, and marines would be sufficient to man three line-of-battle ships fitted with screws; five screw frigates, from 50 to 24 guns each; six large class steam frigates, ten steam sloops, together twenty-four steamers of various sizes
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in all mounting 528 guns, and manned by 8,000 officers, seamen, and marines. If they had that large force, not in their ports, not much at anchor, not smoking the coast with their coal, but exercising the vessels under canvass, they would be sufficiently prepared for any emergency. He might be asked where he would get the 8,000 seamen that would be required to man these ships. In answer to that he would suggest that there was scarcely a foreign station that might not spare one or more ships of the squadron—he did not mean the Mediterranean only, but North and South America and the coast of Africa, and all other stations The other clay he saw in the newspapers that there were five English men-of-war at Rio Janeiro at anchor at one time; and they might depend upon it that an admiral will always keep as many ships out on a foreign station as he can. A distinguished Member of that House had recently observed—he meant the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton (Viscount Palmerston)—that this country had the smallest Army of any principal nation in Europe. There was a very good reason for that. It was because England is an island; they all knew if she was joined to the Continent she would have to keep up a large Army to protect herself from the encroachments of her neighbours; but, situated as we are, he thought it morally impossible an enemy could land on our coast. In the first place, it would take a long time for a force to embark. It was true that the army of Sir John Moore, where he was present, embarked in a single night. But how was that accomplished? Why, as the boats from the ships approached the shore the men leaped into them anyhow, so that there were not in any boat three men belonging to the same regiment, and they had neither horses nor stores to embark—for the horses were shot, and the stores abandoned. But no invading force could be embarked in that manner. He remembered when he was employed in blockading Boulogne, where the invading army of Napoleon was to have been embarked, and his opinion was that the country was more vulnerable then than it was now—the agency of steam had done so much to strengthen it; for calms and fogs would have assisted the enemy then much more than they could do now. If they were now to be brought over in large steamers or line-of-battle ships, they must be landed in boats at a distance from the shore; and then it was

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to be remembered that every man of them would be as sick as a dog. They might depend upon it that an invading force, either in coming across or in landing, would be cut to pieces in detail, if there were but an efficient, force at hand. Another recommendation he would make would be that at least half the men employed in the Navy should be ablebodied seamen. The difference in expense would be only 3d. per day, and the provisions and allowances the same, while in case of a war these able seamen could be drafted into the new ships, and their places taken by ordinary seamen and landsmen. With regard to assembling more men-of-war at home, he conceived that with the advantage of steam and the electric telegraph, England should be more the head quarters of the Navy, because, if necessary, additional aid could be immediately despatched to any foreign station. If he added a remark, not very complimentary to the other branch of the service, it should be jocularly; but the alarm about invasion was chiefly expressed by soldiers, from the illustrious Duke downwards. Sir Francis Head was a soldier, and so was the "Swiss Colonel," and many of them had by their writings, helped to raise and keep up the alarm. And the reason was plain—they could not comprehend the capabilities of resistance that might be made on the ocean, and especially the resources that had been put into their hands by the power of steam. For example, he had never known a marine officer, however long he might have been at sea, who had learned to steer or manage a boat. If this was the case in small matters, it might be supposed how ill-informed they were as to matters that were more important. His opinion upon the whole was, that our ships should be collected more at home, for the Colonies were well defended with forts and batteries, but that was not the case with Great Britain.
MR. CORRYsaid, he agreed with the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Baring) that our Navy was never in a better condition than at the present moment, whether it regarded our ships or stores; but he must remind the Committee that it was through the effort of Sir Robert Peel's Government to build a steam fleet that they now possessed a reserve of steamers in a state of efficiency for sea at a moment's warning. The right hon. Baronet had taken credit for having reduced the Estimates by 1,500,000 l. But the reason why the Es-
1450
timates of Sir Robert Peel's Government were so large was, that between 1841, when they entered office, and 1846, when they retired, no fewer than seventy-two steamers of 28,000 horse-power and 74,000 tons burden, had been built, equal to thirty sail of the line. He knew the Government had been accused of building steamers in a panic, and therefore of building them badly. Now, if time had permitted, perhaps they might have made experiments, and thus saved some faults; but then they would have been neglecting a still higher duty, the safety of our own shores. But though they had now a larger naval force than France possessed, both in steamers and sailing vessels, yet there were circumstances which made the smaller naval force of France more available for invasion than our large naval force was for defence—the main circumstance being, that we had a vast colonial empire to defend, and an enormous commercial interest to guard in every sea, so that the greater portion of our navy was necessarily out of our reach; while France, which had no such interests to protect, had its navy chiefly at home. It was therefore important that we should always have the means of maiming our reserve ships, and sending them to sea at the shortest notice, in the event of a war. The French had a great advantage in manning their fleet, for all French seamen were liable to be called upon to serve four years in their navy, and as they hardly ever volunteered to serve again, he was informed that there were at the present moment in the maritime districts of France 23,000 seamen liable to be called up to servo on board of the navy, who had already had four years' experience in the service, and were perfectly conversant with naval discipline. Now there were on the last registry of the English seamen 210,000 names; but few of these men had any knowledge of naval gunnery, or were acquainted with the restraints of discipline on board a man-of-war. As one means of remedying that defect, He would suggest that the reserve marines who were now trained to naval gunnery should be increased. The number of marines serving ashore was 5,300, which was the number at the time he was in office; but he had ascertained then, and he had no reason to suppose it was different now, that no more than 3,000 of these were available for embarkation. As it would require 6,000 marines to man the reserve Navy if it were required, he would suggest

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that the marine force should be increased by 3,000 men. The expense of this increase would not be more than 100,000 l. a year. He was not sanguine about the success of the particular plan proposed for the reserve of seamen, though he thought the late Board deserved every credit for having proposed it. He doubted if the men would do found willing to enter upon the plan proposed, and therefore he would recommend the Members of the present Board to consider a very able scheme for the formation of a coast militia, which was addressed by Sir Thomas Hastings to the Board of Admiralty in 1846. The plan was to assemble 15,000 men once a year, and train them in gunnery and other naval exercises. If that plan were adopted, he thought they would have a most efficient naval reserve.
CAPTAIN BOLDEROwished to call the attention of his hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty to a Resolution which had been passed by that House, declaring its opinion that better accommodation should be provided for assistant surgeons throughout the Navy. He might assert without fear of contradiction that the Resolution had not been carried out in that spirit of justice in which it was the intention of the House that it should be carried out. He readily admitted that the position of assistant surgeons had been very much improved since the passing of that Resolution. But an order had been promulgated which had acted most injuriously on assistant surgeons, and which was an insult to the whole medical profession. It was declared in that order that no young man entering the Navy as an assistant surgeon should receive cabin accommodation till he had passed through a professional service of three years. At the age which those gentlemen who were of superior and scientific education had attained when they entered the service, they were compelled to associate in the cockpit with boys for for three years before they were thought fit to be placed in the society of lieutenants of the Navy and lieutenants of marines. It was possible a lieutenant of marines seventeen years of age, might be embarked in a line-of-battle ship; and if he were fit to receive a cabin, an assistant surgeon should be so. Another defect in that order was, that it was not sufficiently peremptory in requiring captains to give the accommodation required. He did not say they wilfully evaded it. He had received letters from all parts where our ships were sta-
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tioned, representing that captains had refused accommodation where it could be given. He would suggest to his hon. Friend (Mr. Stafford) the expediency of submitting the case to the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty. Our Navy was lately engaged in a bloody scene at Lagos. The loss was greater than that which was usually incurred in a naval action; and in his report to the Admiralty the commanding officer, speaking of the surgeons and assistant surgeons, said—
"Penelope, off Lagos, Jan. 2.
"Nothing could exceed the devotion of the officers of the medical staff to the exigencies of the day—one surgeon, five assistant surgeons. Whenever a man was struck in the boats a medical man was immediately at his side, setting their own lives at nought when compared with the wants of their brave companions in arms."
The assistant surgeons ought to have those comforts to which their position and education entitled them. Allusion had been made to a reduction of 1,500.000 l. in the Estimates effected by the right hon. Gentletleman lately at the head of the Board of Admiralty. He did not give the right hon. Gentleman credit for it; he thought it an injury. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that he hoped the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty would effect still further reductions; but if that course were pursued, what dependence in the event of an attempted invasion could be placed on the Navy? The more efficient it was made, the more secure would the country be against attack. It was pleasing to hear that there was a reserve of steam vessels ready to be equipped within twenty-four hours in the event of a declaration of war, and satisfactory to recollect that the mercantile steam marine was much greater than in France; where France could fit out one steamer from its mercantile marine, we could fit out ten. If in the event of a war letters of marque were given to some of our steamers, and the steamers were well armed, there would not be a trading vessel of a nation at war with this country to be seen three months after the declaration of war.
CAPTAIN HARRIShad on former Sessions called attention to the manning of the Navy. He had had interviews with Lord Auckland and other Lords of the Admiralty on the subject, and had put the case to them whether it would be possible to resort to impressment in the event of war. To many old officers with whom he had been

1453
in communication, and who differed with him on the subject, he had put the question, whether they thought they would, as magistrates, ever back a press warrant with any chance of success. They admitted they could not. What would be the result of attempting it? The Executive would come into collision with the civil law, and the decision of a court would abrogate impressment. The real question, then, for consideration was, whether they should not take time by the forelock. He might suggest that the boldest step was also the wisest; and he did trust that before the year, or even the Session, expired, a supplementary estimate might be proposed to provide against the contingency of war. A mode of manning the Navy in time of peace ought also to be devised. Great difficulty, he understood, was experienced in manning the Navy; there were ships shorthanded at present, and likely to remain so for two months. The only way in which he thought provision could be made for manning the Navy in time of peace, was by continuous service, such as existed in the Army. Men might be entered for seven, eleven, and fifteen years, the terms of two, three, and four commissions; at the end of the last they should be entitled to a pension, increasing at the rate of 1d. a day for each further year of service. Like our troops in India, they should not be allowed to claim instant discharge, but wait for the draught home. The service was now more attractive than in former times, for a system had been established tending to promote the comfort and happiness of the men; and he might mention, as another improvement, the greater rarity of punishment. In framing a plan for manning the Navy on the breaking out of a war, it would be necessary to bear in mind that the sailor was an erratic animal, wandering from port to port; but the shipping offices and register ticket offered great facilities for carrying out the ballot. Under the existing law the captain and crew must sign their articles before the shipping officer. No merchant vessel should obtain her permit from the Customs until her crew had been balloted. Each register ticket should bear the stamp of the ballot, which would be a protection for a certain period. The same system would be worked on foreign stations. He would introduce a system of ballot, instead of the pressgang, which he would at once erase from the practice and traditions of the country; for, so long as it was retained,
1454
they would find their seamen running to America in the event of a war. He was persuaded the country would approve of this abrogation of the right to press, and assuming the principle that every one was bound to serve the State in the event of a war, enable Parliament to pass a legal compulsory statute, so that the service would not be injured by it. Notwithstanding some complaints that had been urged, the system of registration had worked uncommonly well; and he was satisfied it would ultimately prove of great value to the marine of the empire.
SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, he wished to say a few words on the important subject of the manning of the Royal Navy, which was one of the most difficult questions they could have to consider in endeavouring to provide for the efficiency of our naval force. They might have ships in abundance; and yet if they wanted men the country would not be safe. The late Board of Admiralty had, after much deliberation, devised a plan which they thought would, to a certain extent, meet the difficulty, and which would at any rate serve as an experiment. He could not himself feel very sanguine as to the efficiency of that plan until it should have been fairly tried. He had heard it stated that it was difficult to understand the scheme; but he should, say that the present Board of Admiralty ought either to take it up fairly or to abandon it altogether. There was no conceivable scheme with respect to which differences of opinion would not prevail among naval officers; and any scheme which was not known to have the support of influential parties at the Admiralty could not succeed. It was most important that the first step in any plan should be taken efficiently if it were to be taken at all; and He repeated that be hoped the new Board of Admiralty would either abandon the scheme of the naval reserve, or would seriously endeavour to carry it into successful operation. There was another point upon which he wished to offer a few words of explanation. Formerly, if at the outbreak of a war a bounty had been given for the entry of any one seaman, a similar bounty had been given to every man in the service; and that had been found to be a very onerous and inconvenient arrangement. It was at present proposed, therefore, that, without affecting the rights of existing seamen, those who might enter the service for the future should not have the power of claiming the bounty in question. With re-

1455
spect to the system of impressment, he should state that they ought to make that system the exception, and not the rule; and in that case be believed that the best plan to which they could resort, would be the adoption of the ballot. He thought they would have to come to that. He was aware, however, that that subject was one of great difficulty; and if he had remained in office, he had intended to have given his best consideration to the matter.
MR. STAFFORDsaid, he could undertake to say that the new Board of Admiralty would give to the suggestions of the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Baring) the attention which they deserved from their importance and from the kind manner in which they had been offered. With respect to the naval reserve, he had to state that the present Board of Admiralty accepted the principles of that plan as a really valuable one, and that they were disposed to carry it fairly' into operation. But they did not regard the scheme as one peculiarly adapted to a sudden crisis, if such a crisis should arise. He believed that the good effects of it would not be perceptible all at once. It was supposed that it would ensure for Her Majesty's service a better character among merchant seamen than that which that service had hitherto enjoyed. At present the greater portion of those who left the Royal Navy for the merchant service were persons of bad character, who represented Her Majesty's service in much worse colours than it deserved; and it was hoped that under the system of the naval reserve, men of good character when they loft the Royal Navy would speak favourably of it to their companions among whom they would afterwards mix. We had at present in the merchant seamen's service about 230,000 men, besides about 50,000 men who disappeared in distant parts of the world, and were not seen again until after the lapse of three or four years. If the plan should succeed, it must still be obvious that so small a body among so large a mass must work but slowly. The question with regard to naval assistant surgeons was at this moment occupying the attention of the Admiralty, who were not unmindful of the necessity which existed for carrying out the order of the House upon the subject. They felt that that order ought to be carried out; but at the same time that some discretion should be left to the officer in command, and allowance made for the amount of accommodation on board ship. It was impossible to apply an abstract rule in this
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case. All he could say was, therefore, that the animus of the Board was to treat the assistant surgeons of the Navy as gentlemen, and to give them every facility for prosecuting their studies on board that the arrangements of the ship would admit of.
SIR GEORGE PECHELLhoped the Admiralty would also take the case of the junior class of surgeons, who acted as clerks to captains, into their consideration, with a view to putting them on a different and an improved footing; and he would recommend that officers in the coast-guard service should be rewarded by promotion, the rewards they at present received at the end of the year not being, in his opinion, adequate to the great and valuable services they performed, in so often saving life and property, and protecting the revenue.
Vote agreed to.
(18.) 50,353 l. Scientific Department.
MR. WYLDsaid, he was compelled to complain of the very inefficient way in which the charts were published, and 'begged to call attention to the mode in which the charts were published by the Navy of the United States and by the French Marine. The system adopted by the American Admiralty Board was much superior to that in operation in this country, inasmuch as the Americans adopted a uniform scale and plan by which they accomplished much greater results than was done here, and at much smaller expenditure of money. They had year after year expended nearly 60,000 l. upon this service, and still only a very small number of charts was published every year. The want of such publications was exceedingly detrimental to the commercial navy of Great Britain; and if they were sufficiently extensive, so far from the sale producing only 2,000 l. or 3,000 l. as they saw by the Estimates of that year, it might produce 30,000 l. He hoped the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Admiralty would direct his attention to this matter.
MR. STAFFORDsaid, the subject had already attracted the attention of the Board of Admiralty, and would continue to do so. The difficulty was one of expense. The hon. Gentleman seemed to think the Admiralty might be reimbursed the expenditure of carrying out his suggestions, but that appeared to' him (Mr. Stafford) somewhat problematical.
SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, the First Lord of the Admiralty's house ought to be given up for the map department. As it was, the business was very much in

1457
arrear for want of proper space and accommodation.
Vote agreed to; as were also—
(19.) 132,647 l. Naval Establishments at Home.
(20.) 23,263 l. Naval Establishments Abroad.
(21.) 666,929 l. Wages to Artificers at Home.
(22.) 35,331 l. Wages to Artificers Abroad.
(23.) 782,495 l. Naval Stores, &c.
COLONEL PEELsaid, he was surprised that not one word had been said in the course of the discussion upon the Navy Estimates in reference to the circumstance of a foreign yacht having recently come to this country, and, in the presence of the Queen herself, beat some of our crack sailing vessels. That appeared to him a humiliating event. He remembered a leader in a morning newspaper characterising the American yacht as "the racehorse of the Ocean." Though He (Colonel Peel) was wholly ignorant of nautical matters, and knew as little how to manage a boat as any of the class of officers referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Bath (Captain Scobell), yet he admitted he was to some extent conversant with the pastime of horse-racing, and flattered himself that he could appreciate such an expression as "the blue ribbon of the turf," with which the right hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had recently made them familiar; but, whatever might be the sailing qualities of the American yacht, this he knew, that if such a defeat had been sustained on the English turf as had happened to our sailing vessels in the instance to which he had referred, there was not a true sportsman in this country who would not have gone to almost any expense to have recovered back our lost laurels. It was part of his creed that "Britannia rules the waves;" but what became of the goddess on the day to which he had alluded he was not prepared to say; if she ruled the waves at all, on that occasion she must surely have done so with a downcast look. He would suggest that some part of the surplus funds from the Exhibition might be appropriated towards large prizes to be given with a view to encourage competition in the building of sailing vessels. It was of little or no use for us to go on constructing sailing squadrons merely to run against one another. If we would really improve the sailing qualities of our ships,
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we ought to invite competition with those of other nations, instead of testing our ships with each other.
ALDERMAN THOMPSONsaid, the hon. and gallant Member need be under no alarm as to our ships being surpassed by the American merchantmen. There was an American vessel called the Oriental, which had been greatly praised for the celerity of her voyages between this country and China; but he believed that there had been more than one ship of British build which had made the voyage in a considerably shorter time than even the Oriental. There never had been a period in the history of our country when there had been greater zeal and anxiety shown for the improvement of our merchant vessels than at the present time; and he could assure the gallant Member that neither energy nor expense would be spared to maintain the high position which our mercantile marine had so long enjoyed.
SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, it was quite true that the American yacht, which had been built expressly for racing purposes, had beaten our swiftest yachts; but with merchant ships and ships of war the case was very different. There were no ships of war in the world that could excel our own in speed and other qualities. The American Government had certainly not succeeded in building ships to beat our men of war. Look at the trials in the Pacific, at Rio Janeiro, and the West Indies. There we had completely surpassed them. Then with respect to French ships, let them only look at Prince de Joinville's squadrons, the three-deckers of which could neither tack nor wear.
MR. FOX MAULEwished to say a few words for the honour of his own country. There had been a regular competition between the American and the Aberdeen builders as to ships for China and Newfoundland; and the Aberdeen builders had beaten their opponents altogether.
The MARQUESS of GRANBYsaid, he did not wish to underrate the efforts made by foreign countries in the building of ships; but we must take care, if we had to compete with them, that our shipbuilders and shipowners were not overweighted in the race.
CAPTAIN HARRISthought the amount of the stores in our dockyards had rather been too much trenched upon of late. He saw, with regard to timber, masts, and deals, the expenditure had been reduced by some thousands. He wanted to know

1459
whether that saving had been effected by paying lower prices on the contracts? He also saw a reduction with regard to stores of 84,000 l. He wished to know whether that was an actual retrenchment in stores?
SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, the Estimates were carefully gone through, and at the close he asked Mr. Dundas, the storekeeper-general, whether it was wise to increase the stores in any particular; when that gentleman replied that, notwithstanding there was a diminution in the Estimates of 84,000 l., there never was a time when the naval stores were in a more efficient state than at present.
Vote agreed to; as were also the following:—
(24.) 265,140 l. New Works.
(25.) 23,000 l. Medicines and Medical Works.
(26.) 50,850 l. Miscellaneous Services.
(27.) 707,520 l. Half Pay.
(28.) 490,533 l. for Military Pensions and Allowances.
CAPTAIN SCOBELLwished to draw the attention of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Admiralty to the immense number of half-pay officers at present on the list, which was very little reduced from what it was at the end of the war. The late Board of Admiralty did reduce the list somewhat, but it was still so large as to be an injustice to the officers themselves, most of whom had no chance of active employment, and an injustice to the service. Another subject to which he wished to call attention was the gallant action at Lagos. The Committee ought not to pass the Naval Votes without some allusion to one of the most gallant, and, at the same time, the most bloody actions by boats, ships, steamers, and other vessels, which he had ever known. If the despatches were closely scrutinised, it would be seen that nothing could be more energetic, more skilful, more persevering, on the part of those employed; and that the action was a most hotly-contested one would be judged of from the fact, that out of 400 men and officers engaged, 100 were killed and wounded. The late Board of Admiralty, he had no doubt, made their arrangements in a hurry; but he hoped the present Board would look through the list of officers who had got no reward but many a wound, with a view to some further promotions.
Vote agreed to; as were also the following;—
(29.) 156,562 l. Civil Pensions and Allowances.
(30.) 127,600 l. Army and Ordnance Departments.
(31.) 870,158 l. Post Office Packet Service.
MR. H. HERBERTbegged to call the attention of the Committee to the state of the Irish mails between Kingstown and Holyhead. A return which he had moved for that Session would show that there had been of late years a material decrease in the speed of these vessels, and that the mail packets lost at least half an hour on each trip. It was a curious anomaly that the only service that had not improved was the Irish mail service; but surely hon. Gentlemen who came such a distance to perform their Parliamentary duties ought to be provided with the best and quickest mode of transit.
MR. BAILLIE COCHRANEsaid, that there was no charge for steam communication with the Canadas and Newfoundland, although there was a charge for the communication with New York, and although the commerce and intercourse between the two first countries and England had of late very much increased. It was a most curious fact, that though there was a grant of 14,700 l. for the communication between Halifax, Bermuda, and St. Thomas's, and Halifax and St. John's, and although the vessels passed within sight of Newfoundland, the mails were sent on six hundred miles further to Halifax, whence they got back the best way they could. This was felt to be a very great inconvenience, and he had had communications from Newfoundland, to the effect that if the Government would grant 5,000 l., the colonial legislature would defray the rest of the expense; and then there might be a regular steam communication between Liverpool and St. John's.
MR. STAFFORDsaid, that the answer to both the hon. Gentlemen who had just spoken was the fact, that the Admiralty in this matter was merely subordinate to the Post Office, and both were subordinate to the Treasury. If the hon. Gentleman would apply to the Post Office, then the Post Office might apply to the Treasury, and both would then send their wishes to the Admiralty, which would be sure to attend to them.
MR. COWPERthought it was preposterous to suppose that two different steamers should run across the Atlantic—one to Halifax, and another to St. John's.
MR. COCHRANEsaid, the preposterous part of the proceeding was, that passengers, as he had pointed out, should, when within fifty or sixty miles of their place of destination, be carried 600 miles past the port, and have to travel 600 miles back again.
MR. ANDERSONsaid, he begged to point out to the Committee the deficiency of postal communication with the Orkney and Shetland isles. His constituents there had great cause to complain as to the inadequacy of the present arrangements. The group of islands with which he would deal more especially now was the Orkneys, which were divided from the mainland by the Pentland Firth. Arrangements had been made by the Post Office which gave them a daily mail; but the provisions for carrying the mail acsoss the strait consisted merely of some small boats, which, whenever there was so much as a cat's paw of wind did not cross over. This state of things was not very easily remediable till within a few years, because there was no harbour on the Caithness coast; but there had now been formed an harbour near Thurso, capable of affording shelter in all weather for vessels of considerable size. A small steam vessel to run across this strait would give the inhabitants something like a regular post; and from an Admiralty survey which He had obtained, the additional expense would not exceed 500 l. a year as compared with the present arrangement. About 30,000 of Her Majesty's subjects would thus be placed in regular communication with every part of the Kingdom; and, besides this, it was not merely a local question, because there were sometimes 1,000 sail of vessels from the north of Europe awaiting orders from their consignees, and repairs; and a sure and speedy communication with these vessels was a matter of extreme importance.
MR. CLEMENTSthought the postal communication between Holyhead and Kingstown ought to be expedited. The vessels were quite capable of going the distance in three hours and a half, instead of four hours and a half and five hours.
MR. SCULLYsaid, he must request the hon. Secretary for the Treasury (Mr. G. A. Hamilton), as representing the Post Office in that House, to give some explanation on this subject.
MR. ALDERMAN THOMPSONsaid, the Admiralty had made a contract with the Dublin Steam Packet Company for 25,000 l. per annum for this service, by the con-
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ditions of which the steamers were limited to a certain time in making the passage. They frequently, however, did not keep to their engagement by an hour. The loss of an hour was of great importance to the postal communication, and it was the duty of the Admiralty to see the contract carried out. If the vessels were so imperfect, and the steam power so insufficient that they could not perform the contract, it was the duty of the Secretary of the Admiralty to enforce it. The loss of time in the passage was, at present, a crying evil.
MR. STAFFORDsaid, that the matter should be inquired into, and that the Admiralty would compel the performance of the contract to the very letter.
MR. H. HERBERTsaid, he had not made a complaint against the Dublin Steam Packet Company breaking its contract, but what he wanted to show was, that, owing to a miserable skin-flint policy on the part of the late Government a sum was now paid for the service much less than that which it had cost the Government two years ago. The sum now paid per annum (25,000 l.) was too small to admit of the satisfactory performance of the vessels. The persons in charge of them admitted that they were able to go at much greater speed, but that the Government did not pay for speed. Now, as an Irish Member, he submitted that he and his colleagues were entitled to the best accommodation of the kind which could he provided. One of the witnesses, examined before the Select Committee which sat upon the subject two years ago, proved that some of the vessels could go more than twelve miles an hour, and which they contracted to do; others were not so fast, but that the company considered they had performed their contract with the Admiralty if one vessel went at fourteen knots an hour, and another at ten.
MR. PETO, being the Chairman of the Chester and Holyhead Railway, begged to say, that the whole system of the postal communication with Ireland required the most careful consideration. The whole of the mails were upon one occasion detained for two hours at Chester, without the least occasion for the delay. The Irish mails were now delivered in London at eleven o'clock in the morning; but if the Government would investigate the question fully, they would find that there was no reason why the Irish letters should not be delivered in London with the others every morning. He hoped it would be sufficient

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to call the attention of the Government to this subject.
Vote agreed to.
House resumed.

SUITORS IN CHANCERY RELIEF BILL.
Order for Committee read.
SIR WILLIAM PAGE WOODsaid, he wished, with permission of the House, to make some observations with reference to the Bill then before the House, and also to another Bill which was about to be introduced by the late Government with respect to improvements in the Court of Chancery. He trusted that the House would indulge him whilst he made such observations, because there certainly had been a most extraordinary misunderstanding, occasioned partly, he must say, by statements that had been made in that House, with reference to the proceedings that had been taken by the late Government in preparing a Bill that was to be founded upon the recommendations of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the proceedings of the Court of Chancery. He had lately seen a report of a speech made by the noble Lord now at the head of the Court of Chancery, in which that noble Lord very fairly stated that he did not take any credit to himself with regard to the measure about to be introduced, founded upon the report of that Commission, because it had been the intention of Her Majesty's late Government to bring in in a Bill of a precisely similar description. The noble Lord stated that he was prepared to bring in a Bill for the purpose of carrying fully into effect the recommendations of that Commission. But in the course of that statement, as he (Sir W. P. Wood) read it, the noble Lord stated that he did not find the Bill so advanced as he had expected—that he had, in fact, only found certain clauses prepared with reference to the abolition of the Masters in Chancery. Now, of that statement he (Sir W. P. Wood) had certainly no great-reason to complain, and he should be very sorry to do so, because it gave him most unfeigned pleasure to find that the recommendations of that Commission had met with the noble Lord's sanction. But it had been stated in that House that when the present Government came into office, not a trace of that Bill for the improvement of the Court of Chancery according to the report of the Commission was discovered. Now that statement, no doubt made in error, certainly was a most incor-
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rect representation of the exact state of the facts. That state was as follows—and he need not go very far back to state how far the arrangements respecting this matter had proceeded, because he believed that only a week before that statement was made, he (Sir W. P. Wood), in answer to a question of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham), made a statement similar to that which he was now about to make. He stated then, as he had now to repeat, that the report of the Chancery Commissioners was not laid before Her Majesty's Government till the 27th January. The House would recollect that they were summoned there for the 3rd of February. There was an interval, therefore, of only six days; but feeling extremely anxious that the measures which had been recommended by the Commissioners should be brought into effect in the course of the present Session, he had obtained the leave of the Commissioners to show to the late Lord Chancellor a sketch of the report which they were about to make about seven or eight days previously to its being actually made—that he had done so at the request of the late Lord Chancellor, who was desirous of carrying the recommendations of the Commissioners into full effect. The Lord Chancellor, therefore, having the substance of the report about, and only about, twelve days before the opening of Parliament, gave immediate directions to the gentleman who was the Secretary to the Commission (Mr. C. C. Barber) to prepare a Bill to carry the recommendations of the Commissioners into effect, stating, at the same time, that he had selected that gentleman because, from having acted as Secretary to the Commission, he would most probably be fully acquainted with the views of the Commissioners, and would be able to prepare a Bill with the greatest expedition, and also with the greatest accuracy, with reference to the wishes of the Commissioners. Now, that direction having been given, it was stated in Her Majesty's gracious Speech from the Throne that a Bill had been directed to be prepared; and it was this which made him the more anxious to make this statement on the present occasion, because certainly the most strange rumours had gone abroad, inconsequence of what was alleged in that House, to the effect that Her Majesty's late Government had allowed it to be stated in the Speech from the Throne that a Bill had been directed to be prepared, when not a

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trace of that Bill could be found. But it was not correct that no trace of it could be found; for what took place? The Secretary of the Commission, being thus instructed, did begin to prepare a Bill. While it was in course of preparation, the Lord Chancellor occasioned a delay of a few days. It occurred to the Lord Chancellor that it might probably be better for the Commissioners themselves to prepare the Bill, and He directed the Secretary to inquire whether it would be agreeable to them to do so. That He did solely with the view of carrying more completely into effect the recommendations which had already been made. He (Sir W. P. Wood) was not present at the meeting of the Commissioners when that question was considered; but they came to the resolution that it was not part of the duty of the Commission to prepare a Bill, and that it would be bettor for Her Majesty's Government to prepare a Bill, and that the responsibility of the measure should not be thrown upon the Commissioners. As lie stated, he (Sir W. P. Wood) was not present at the time that resolution was arrived at, but he fully approved of it. That answer was coupled at the same time with offers of a very courteous character from the Master of the Rolls and the two Vice-Chancellors, to the effect that, although they did not think it was right that the Commission should prepare a Bill, they were nevertheless prepared to give their individual assistance in every way to the gentlemen who might be appointed to prepare it. Having received that intimation, the Lord Chancellor renewed his directions immediately to Mr. Barber, the Secretary, to proceed with the Bill. The most material Clauses, those, for instance, recommending the abolition of the Masters' Offices, were first sketched out, and afterwards fully prepared. Being very anxious himself to forward the Bill as much as possible, he (Sir W. P. Wood) went through the heads of the Bill with Mr. Barber. He had approved of the heads as sketched out by Mr. Barber, and instructions were given to draw up the Bill in conformity with these heads. That was the state in which the Bill was on the day on which the division took place on the Local Militia Bill which led to their retirement from office. Now, he would ask whether it was fair that a Bill in that state, as to which no instructions could be given till twelve days before the meeting of Parliament—a Bill of considerable importance in its character, and the
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principal feature of which was the abolition of the Masters' Office—was it fair to say, with respect to a Bill in such a state of forwardness, that no trace of it could be found when Her Majesty's late Government left office? The principal feature of the Bill was to be the abolition of the Masters' Offices; and the clauses which provided for that reform had been actually drawn. It was not a party measure, and there was an earnest desire on all sides to expedite it. He begged to remind them that the Commission which had recommended that Bill was appointed by the late Government—that this desire to reform the Court of Chancery had emanated from them. His right hon. Friend the Master of the Rolls, before he accepted the office, renewed the Committee which was originally appointed to inquire into the fees of the Court of Chancery and Common Law, and which had been very effective in producing reforms in both, the result of which was the Bill which was then under the consideration of the House. Before his right hon. Friend had ceased to be Chairman of that Committee, he was appointed one of Her Majesty's law officers. In that capacity he brought in a most valuable Bill for the improvement of the Court of Chancery in Ireland. Having carried that Bill, he suggested the appointment of a Commission for inquiry into the Court of Chancery in England. The late Lord Chancellor immediately acceded to that request, and immediately appointed that Commission; and he (Sir W. P. Wood) must say that the gentlemen composing that Commission were chosen without the least reference to party position. They had the able assistance of the two present Vice-Chancellors, neither of whom, as it was well known, was of the same political opinions with the late Government: most able assistance had been rendered by them on that inquiry. In the course of that inquiry a proposition was made by the hon. and learned Member for Newark (Mr. J. Stuart) that two lay gentlemen should be added to the Commission. He described them as men of business. It was assumed that he meant commercial gentlemen, who it was not expected could be of very much service in aiding the Commission to come to a satisfactory conclusion with regard to Chancery matters. It proved, however, that he alluded to the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham), and the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Henley), and he was happy to say that, when this was under-

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stood, with the almost unanimous approbation of the House, those two Gentlemen were added to the Commission. He had no doubt then of the Bill prepared under such auspices being carried into effect; but he wished to state distinctly that the answer which he had given to the question of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, to the effect that the Lord Chancellor had given instructions for the preparation of that Bill, was made from his (Sir W. P. Wood's) own personal knowledge of the facts; and when he asserted that as a matter within his own knowledge, he did think that he had some right to complain of the statement, which he regarded as a sort of personal imputation, that no trace whatever was to be found of those proceedings which had been mentioned in Her Majesty's Speech in reference to Chancery reform. Had the late Government remained in office, the Bill would, in all probability, by this time be on the table of the House. He was fully aware of the difficulties of the new Government, and he was fully aware of the importance of reform in the Court of Chancery; yet, in the present state of public feeling, he thought there were other matters of more importance on which the people were most anxious to obtain a decision, and it certainly did not appear to him to be a question which ought to delay a dissolution. There was only one part of the speech of the present Lord Chancellor on the subject of the Bill in question which gave him (Sir W. P. Wood) some uneasiness; it was this: the suggestion of the noble Lord that certain buildings would be necessary, that it would be very desirable that the Vice-Chancellors and Master of the Rolls, who were now to act without the assistance of Masters, should have another room by their side, in which there should be a person with whom they could immediately communicate, and who would act towards them as a sort of chief clerk, to perform those duties now performed by the Masters. He did not at all differ from the views of the Lord Chancellor upon the desirableness of having such a room, but he certainly did think that so great a reform ought not to be delayed until a building of that sort could be provided. He knew the delay which awaited all reference to bricks and mortar. Even Lord Eldon, who was not said to be a very swift Judge, when he appointed a Vice-Chancellor, did not think it expedient to defer the appointment until a new Court was built, but the new Vice-
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Chancellor sat in the Committee rooms Of the House of Commons. The two new Vice-Chancellors who had been subsequently appointed sat in the Committee rooms of the House of Commons. He hoped the Government would not find it necessary to depart from the Report, which had been very maturely considered, nor hesitate upon the question as to how the Judges were to carry that Report into operation without the assistance of the Masters. He trusted that in these observations it would not be considered that he was in the slightest degree influenced by regret that the carrying out of the intentions of the Commissioners had fallen into other hands. He confidently hoped that Her Majesty's present Government would carry into effect every one of the recommendations contained in the Report as soon as the new Parliament was assembled.
MR. JOHN STUARTwould say a word on the very remarkable statement just made by the late Solicitor General. Nobody could for a moment doubt the accuracy of the matter-of-faet details delivered to the House by his hon. and learned Friend; but his object in rising was to correct a misapprehension into which his hon. and learned Friend seemed to have fallen. It was quite clear, from what the hon. and learned Gentleman had stated, that the late Government had in truth prepared no Bill with reference to Chancery reform, which their successors could have taken up; for the statement of his hon. Friend in substance was, that the Government had had no time to prepare a Bill—that they had no measure which they were prepared to bring in as a Government measure. According to his statement, the Report of the Commission was signed on the 27th of January, and that between that date and the opening of the Session, there was no time to prepare a great measure for remodelling the Court of Chancery; and accordingly, his hon. and learned Friend owned that no measure was prepared. But in the Queen's Speech the Government proclaimed that they had prepared a measure for the reform of the Court of Chancery. The preparation appeared to have been this: that the Government had not had time to prepare, for there was only a sketch of the report; that was the only measure of Chancery reform they left—the sketch of the Report. [Sir W. P. WOOD: No, that is not so.] Yes; but that is so. The hon. and learned Gentleman and the Secretary of the Commission went

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through the Report, and there the matter was left. When the hon. Gentlemen went out of office, what they really left to their successors was not a complete measure, but a clever sketch, by two able men, namely, by Mr. C. Barber, Secretary to the Commission, and his hon. and learned Friend. It was not, therefore, by any means correct to say, the late Government had a measure prepared. That was an un-intentional misrepresentation of his hon. and learned Friend. Neither was his hon. and learned Friend's history of the affair correct. He stated that the Master of the Rolls prepared a measure for reforming the Court of Chancery in Ireland, and that his notion of the success of that measure had induced him to propose the existing Chancery Commission. That was a mistake. In April, 1850—nine months before the Chancery Commission was appointed—he (Mr. Stuart) gave notice of a Motion for an Address to the Crown on the subject of Chancery reform, and especially with reference to the subject of preventing delay and expense in the Masters' Offices. That notice was given on the 15th April. At that time Lord Cottenham was on his sickbed, and unable to attend to business, and the Master of the Rolls was not in good health. He (Mr. Stuart) communicated with these eminent individuals, and they wrote to him letters, now in his possession, begging him not to proceed with his Motion for appointing a Commission; that no good would result from it; and Lord Cottenham, in a kind and friendly note, begged he would wait until he (Mr. Stuart) saw some orders which were in course of preparation, and which he would send him a copy of in a few days, and which that noble and learned Lord said would remedy all the evils which it was the object of the Commission to cure. Lord Cottenham did issue those orders; but they failed of their intended effect; and the Commission, for the appointment of which he moved, was issued after Lord Truro became Chancellor. He (Mr. Stuart) moved, that upon that Commission two laymen in whom the public would have confidence might be placed, and that proposition, which was first rejected, was afterwards adopted; and the right hon. Member for Ripon, and the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade, were added.
MR. FOX MAULEsaid, he could not congratulate the hon. and learned Gentleman on the fairness of his answer to his
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hon. and learned Friend. The object of his hon. and learned Friend was to explain to the House a statement which had been made to the House, that when the late Government left office, they left no traces of any steps having been taken to prepare a Bill, as was stated in the Speech from the Throne. Now, the words in the Queen's Speech were, not that She had ordered Bills to be laid on the table, but that She had ordered Bills to be prepared. Now, he would ask any candid person whether this Bill was not in the course of preparation, when the beds of it had been sketched by the Secretary of the Commission, revised by the Solicitor General, and handed to the Lord Chancellor?
MR. HENLEYsaid, he should have been very unwilling to take any part in the discussion, if the hon. and learned Gentleman who commenced it had confined himself to an explanation of what he conceived to be a misapprehension. But the hon. and learned Gentleman took, or as it appeared to him (Mr. Henley), made, the opportunity of casting some doubts on what the present Lord Chancellor was about to do in this matter. Surely, that was altogether foreign to the subject of his explanation. Nobody mistrusted or doubted the sincerity of the late Government in reference to the recommendations of the Commission—the Commission was their own, and it was most natural that they should wish to carry out its views. The House would, however, recollect the remarkable words in Her Majesty's Speech. The announcement contained there was followed up by a notice from the Prime Minister, that He would bring in a Bill in so short a space of time, that every one who knew anything at all about the matter was taken by surprise. He believed no one was more surprised than the hon. and learned Gentleman himself at hearing that a Bill was to be brought in within ten days. Every one felt that unless it were to be done by magic, it was impossible. Such, however, was the fact. The hon. and learned Gentleman had stated, no doubt correctly, what instructions were given by the Lord Chancellor. Of course that was a matter which he (Mr. Henley) knew nothing about. He had stated also that some change of mind came over the Lord Chancellor, and that a communication was made through the Secretary to the Commissioners. Being a Member of the Commission, that, of course, came to his notice; and, as the

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hon. and learned Gentleman had thought fit to allude to the subject, there could be no impropriety in his doing so. He happened to be present at the Commission when that communication was made; and, certainly, whatever might have passed between Mr. Barber and the Lord Chancellor, the thing was then quite a white sheet—nothing was done. That was after the meeting of Parliament. For some reason or other, nothing had then been done towards the preparation of the Bill. His hon. and learned Friend had correctly stated what passed in the Commission; and so the matter was referred back again to the Lord Chancellor. But here, again, another matter came in. Questions, it would be recollected, on this report were put to Lord Truro in the House of Lords; and in reply his Lordship said he must take time to consider certain points, and they happened to be points on which the public felt most interested. On those points his Lordship would give no direct answer. This created great—he would not say mistrust, but—uneasiness in the public mind. It could hardly be expected that any great progress would be made with the preparation of the Bills when the head of the law had not, by his answers, satisfied Parliament that he had made up his own mind on the subject. Such was the state of the case up to the period when a change took place in the Government. Well, now, as to how far the preparations had proceeded up to that time, he could not speak precisely. He believed it had been said in some quarters that there were no traces of a Bill. Lord St. Leonards stated, he thought that he had found "heads of a Bill"—or something to that effect. What was reported in the matter was, however, hardly worth much discussion, considering what liability there was to misrepresentation. He regretted that the hon. and learned Gentleman should have thought it necessary to go into questions respecting buildings, and to instance cases in which delay might occur. That, he thought, was hardly worthy of the hon. and learned Gentleman; and he was extremely sorry that he should have cast mistrust on the present Government, when the present Government did not, in this respect, seek to throw doubt on the intentions of their predecessors.
House in Committee; Amendments made; Bill to be recommitted.
House resumed.

ST. ALBANS DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
MR. JOHN STUARTsaid, he had given notice for a Committee of Instruction, which involved a most important principle. After he had given notice of that Motion, however, he understood that Government had determined to bring in a Bill upon the very subject involved, namely, the disposition of four seats—the two for St. Albans and the two for Sudbury. If, therefore, he found the Government intended to bring forward such a measure, he should not ask the House to discuss that Amendment.
MR. WALPOLEsaid, this was simply a Bill for the disfranchisement of the Borough of St. Albans; and the proposition for filling up the two seats thereby rendered vacant, as well as the two other seats left vacant since the disfranchisement of Sudbury, ought to be embodied in a separate and distinct Bill. The Government certainly intended to propose to the House a Bill giving those four Members to some place or places which they, in their judgment, should think best, so that the next Parliament should meet with the full complement of Members.
MR. JACOB BELLhoped the House would not go into Committee at so late an hour of the evening, but, in justice to the borough of St. Albans, afford its representative an opportunity of explaining some of the peculiar circumstances in this case. Of course he had no wish to avoid explanation, having pledged himself to defend the interests of the borough, and if the House would give him a hearing, he should consider it his duty to proceed with the Amendments of which he had given I notice. He thought, however, it was then too late, being past twelve o'clock, to enter into the question, and he begged to move that the debate be adjourned.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Main question put, and agreed to; House in Committee.
MR. JACOB BELLsaid, he held in his hand a petition from the borough of St. Albans, the substance of which he hoped the Committee would allow him to state. The petitioners asserted they were in a condition to prove that there were upwards

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of 200 electors unimplicated in the corruption unfortunately practised in the borough. They recognised the propriety of punishing the guilty parties, but thought it unjust that they should be included in that punishment, and they humbly prayed to be heard at the bar of that House by counsel. Those much injured electors had been goaded to despair by the injury inflicted on them by the corrupt electors, and when they came to that House, naturally expecting redress, they found themselves involved in the same punishment as those who had been so long injuring them. His (Mr. J. Bell's) plea was somewhat different from that of the electors, as he was bound to defend the entire borough, and to urge in favour of the innocent parties their innocence, and in favour of the others the peculiar circumstances of the case. The object of the Bill was the prevention of acts of bribery and corruption at elections; if the Bill were calculated to obtain that object, by taking advantage of the St. Albans' inquiry, and if the disfranchisement of the borough had formed a necessary part of a comprehensive scheme for the purpose, he would not have had a leg to stand upon. But this Bill did not provide for the prevention of bribery throughout the kingdom; it confined its operation solely to that particular borough. Offences were generally punished, not to gratify vindictive feelings, but to serve as examples to prevent the recurrence of such offences in future. Now every individual in the kingdom was impressed with the conviction that St. Albans was doomed, and they had the opportunity of testing the effect that example had produced. But what was the fact? The Blaggs and Edwardses were in a state of activity in every borough in the Kingdom. Instead of stopping the system of corruption, they were rather encouraged by seeing that Government were determined to wreak their vengeance on St. Albans alone; the secrets elicited by the inquiry had put them up to new dodges, and it was generally expected that the coming election would be the most corrupt that had taken place for years. They would find that the opinion of Parliamentary agents and of the press. A large number of boroughs were in the market at various prices. It was not his intention to make any personal remarks. He attacked principles, and not individuals, and was as hostile as any one to a system of corruption. He would beg the
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Committee to consider whether the course which had been pursued would increase public respect. The attack on St. Albans was commenced by the late Government, and had been adopted by the new Government, whilst they had abandoned a measure of Parliamentary Reform. When the late Government evaporated by spontaneous decomposition, and left the vacuum to be filled up by the right hon. Gentlemen opposite, those right hon. Gentlemen had joined in the cry—the game having been hunted down by the former Government, their successors had come in to take the brush. The dissolution of Parliament was not to be thought of until St. Albans had been disfranchised. But another element had lately been introduced into the discussion, namely, the apropriation of the spoil. It was usual to withdraw jurors interested in the cause. Could the Government be impartial jurors in this question, when the disposal of two seats turned upon it? He heard nothing of the important Bill for preventing Corrupt Practices at Elections. He supposed that was to be deferred until the corruption had been put in practice. When hon. Gentlemen had settled accounts with their Edwardses and Blaggs, then would be the time to bring in a Bill to put a stop to Corrupt Practices at Elections. Two hon. Members had thanked the present Government for taking up the St. Albans Disfranchisement Bill, taking it as an earnest of future reform. He was surprised that they had not seen through the delusion; he feared it would turn out to be a settlement in full of all demands. He could find no seconder to his Amendment for postponing the second reading. If Vote by Ballot had been adopted on that occasion, he could have been quite sure of a large majority; but at the eve of a general election he could understand the delicacy of hon. Members, and their not wishing to appear to favour bribery and corruption. He sympathised with hon. Members who were in so delicate a position, although he himself was quite as much in need of sympathy. He had been used as a tool by the late Government, and was now being used as a tool by the present Government; but he had no objection to being used as a tool by any Government—provided always, by so being used, he conferred a benefit on the public. By the present Bill he did not consider that any benefit would be conferred on the public. On the contrary, he

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believed that the passing of this Bill would be holding up a cloak to screen not only acts which had been committed, but those which were in course of preparation at this moment. On that ground he felt no hesitation in opposing the Bill, although he was prepared to oppose corruption, which this Bill was intended to put a stop to, but which object it would not effect. It was his intention to propose as an Amendment the addition of certain places to the borough of St. Albans, enlarging the constituency to about 2,000.
MR. WALPOLErose to order. The Amendment did not come within the title or scope of the Bill.
MR. JACOB BELLsaid, as the Amendment was out of order, he thought his best course would be to move that the Bill be read this day six months, for the purpose of introducing another.
The CHAIRMANsaid, the latter Amendment was also irregular.
MR. JACOB BELLhad little more to say. They must be convinced, from the facts which had come out during the inquiry, that they had all done that which they ought not to have done, and left undone that which they ought to have done. He considered the Bill unfair and unjust, and had felt it to be his duty to oppose it in every stage. No hon. Member knew how soon it might be his turn to be placed in a similar position.
Bill reported; as amended to be considered To-morrow.

REPAYMENT OF ADVANCES ACTS AMENDMENT (IRELAND) BILL.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Acts relating to the repayment of advances made to districts in Ireland. The object of the Bill was merely to recognise the Treasury Minute passed at the end of last autumn. It had been prepared by the late Government, and ought to be passed without delay. If hon. Gentlemen wished to have a discussion on the subject of Irish annuities, which was a subject of great importance, he should
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be quite ready to go into it fully on the second reading; but it was of great importance that this Bill should be proceeded with at once, as 75,000 l. were now locked up, which might be placed at the disposal of the Irish poor.
SIR LUCIUS O'BRIENconsidered the measure one of great importance, and hoped that an early day would be fixed for its discussion.
SIR HENRY BARRONsaid, this was a question of the greatest interest to the people of Ireland. It was most desirable to come to some definite arrangement, but not such an arrangement as was proposed by the late Government or by the present Bill. It was a cruel infliction to force this tax upon the people under the distresses which had been brought upon them by the Government and the Legislature. These were not loans in the proper sense of the term, but advances made at a season of distress, and were never placed under the control of the ratepayers. He thought that the Government was bound to state, at an early day, what were their intentions with regard to the collection of these debts; but certainly they ought not to adopt the plan contained in this Bill of the late Government.
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid that the hon. Baronet appeared to labour under some misapprehension with regard to the Bill, which had been introduced for the purpose of remitting a portion of the payments due from the people of Ireland on account of advances. In the year 1847, 8,000,000 l. was expended in the relief of distress. Of this sum 4,500,000 l. had been actually granted, and the remainder, 3,500,000 l., was to be repaid at various intervals, extending over a period of forty years. The object of this Bill was to remit the payment of nearly 70,000 l.
Leave given; Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. George Alexander Hamilton.
Bill read 1°.
The House adjourned at half after one o'clock.

MUNUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Personal Estates of Intestates; Proclamation for Assembling Parliament.
2a Patent Law Amendment.

PROCLAMATION FOR ASSEMBLING PARLIAMENT BILL—BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he would solicit the attention of his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Derby) to a Bill for removing what he (Lord Brougham) thought was a great omission, through an oversight, in the statutory laws, touching the assembling of Parliament by proclamation of the Crown. Their Lordships were aware that, partly by usage and partly by statute, a period of fifty days must now elapse between the issuing of a proclamation for summoning a new Parliament, and the day fixed for its assembling. The 22nd Article of the Treaty of Union with Scotland required fifty days for the assembling of the first Parliament—twenty-five being necessary for the election of Scotch Peers; hence the former period required by statute, as well as by the common law, of forty days, had been extended to fifty; but since the Act of Union passed, the twenty-five days for the election of Scotch Peers; had been reduced to ten, namely, by an Act of last Session; and it followed almost as a matter of course that thirty-five days would now be quite sufficient.
The EARL of DERBYwas understood to ask the noble Lord if he proposed to make the shorter interval compulsory?
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, by no means. The Bill he was about to present would save a fortnight of the interval now required between the proclamation and the assembling of Parliament, but would not limit that interval to thirty-five days-—it might be fifty or sixty days. It very often did not signify whether Parliament assembled thirty-five or sixty days after the proclamation of the Crown; but he could conceive circumstances might arise which would render the difference between thirty-

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five and sixty days not only a matter of great convenience to Parliament and the country, but of the greatest possible importance in the transaction of public business; for example, it might make all the difference between very important measures being possible to be passed, and not. His reason for interposing to lay this Bill on the table of their Lordships' House, between his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Derby) and his noble Friends behind him was, that they could hardly, in their positions, propound such a measure without giving rise to all sorts of conversations and rumours, that they had some immediate object in view; but no such suspicion could attach to him, and entirely with a view to purposes of public convenience, he felt it his duty to lay the Bill before their Lordships.
The noble Lord then presented a Bill to shorten the time required for assembling Parliament after a Dissolution thereof.
LORD BROUGHAMproceeded to say, he could not mention the subject of the dissolution of Parliament without imploring the attention of their Lordships (not for the second, third, or fourth time, and he feared not for the last, of times without number), to the absolute necessity of taking immediate, stringent, effectual measures, if possible, to put down the bribery and corruption practised at elections. He had called their attention to this important matter before and after the two last general elections. There was now once more the prospect of a general election. He need not remind their Lordships of the scenes which took place at the last, to the disgust of all observers, to the injury, almost the irreparable injury, of the character of this country; to the spread, to the grievous spread, of immorality among the people; and to the great mischief of debasing the elective franchise in the eyes of its possessors, and even rendering its exercise of doubtful advantage to the State. He hoped some effectual measure might at length be brought forward and adopted by the other House of Parliament, as well as by their Lordships, for putting a stop to this crying evil. It was not merely the political corruption and the personal corruption of the voter who took a bribe, which was the consequence of the prevailing practices; but a worse crime still was intimately connected with it, and gave a deeper colour of guilt to the transaction. No voter took a bribe without committing, morally, the guilt of perjury,
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because every voter knew when he took a bribe that he was liable, to have, and might very possibly have, and in all cases of keen contest would most probably have, the bribery oath administered; and even if it should not be administered, he incurred the moral guilt of perjury, because in ninety-nine cases out of one hundred, he received the bribe with the firm determination to take the bribery oath, to forswear himself, and knowingly and wilfully to commit perjury if the oath was administered to him. He committed perjury as much, morally speaking, even if he escaped, or fancied he should escape, by the accident of the oath not being tendered to him, and he had the guilt of perjury on his conscience as much, morally speaking, as the highwayman had the moral guilt of murder upon his conscience when he went out determined to attain his object of taking the property of his victim, by taking his life, if need be, cither to accomplish his fell purpose, or to prevent, if recognised, the discovery of his offence. He hoped and trusted the only effectual remedy which was applicable to the case, would be at length applied—he meant, not only the giving increased facilities to the investigation of complaints, by compelling persons examined to answer questions tending to criminate themselves, and, if it should be needful, protecting them against all legal consequences of their disclosures; but beside that, his firm belief was, they would never put an end to the practice until they had, of necessity and compulsorily, from each Member, before taking his seat, a stringent, thorough going, sifting declaration, that he had, neither directly nor indirectly, participated in, or known of, or believed or suspected that any bribery had been practised, or anything in the nature of bribery, on his behalf. He (Lord Brougham) would not require the declaration upon oath, but upon honour and conscience, which no man would dare to make colourably, if any voter could convict him of it, because afterwards no such man could hold up his head in society. That was, he believed, the most effectual remedy, and at the same time it was not open to the objections which justly applied to tests in general.
The EARL of DERBYsaid, with regard to the first question mooted by the noble Lord, there could be no objection to the Bill being laid before their Lordships; and he thought the shortening the period necessary between the dissolution of Parlia-

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ment and its reassembling, might be a matter of extreme importance. With regard to the second subject, he did not wish to enter upon the general discussion for preventing that which all of their Lordships must be desirous of preventing—namely, the extended, and, he feared he must add, the most rapidly extending system of bribery at elections. He quite concurred with his noble Friend that the attention of Parliament could not be better directed than to providing a remedy; and a Bill for that purpose had been introduced by Her Majesty's late Government into the other House of Parliament. That Bill, in all its essential provisions, had been adopted by Her Majesty's present Government, and was now under the consideration of the other House of Parliament.
The MARQUESS of BREADALBANEobserved, that the noble and learned Lord had stated to the House the great evil of the present practice, and that too stringent a punishment could not he inflicted on the persons corrupted by it. In his opinion the corrupter was a far greater culprit than the corrupted, and their Lordships could not do better than give their attention to that point. A severer punishment ought to be inflicted on those who induced the poor to sell their privileges for money, than on those who sold them. The man who gave money as a bribe, was far more guilty than the man who received it.