Sitting of 30 June 1852

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1o Suitors in Chancery Relief (No. 2).
2o Suitors in Chancery Relief (No. 2).
3o Suitors in Chancery Relief (No. 2).

IMPROVEMENT OF THE JURISDICTION OF EQUITY BILL.
Lords Reasons for disagreeing to one of the Amendments considered.
MR. WALPOLEmoved that the House insist upon Clause (E), the Amendment to which the Lords have disagreed. While the Bill was before the Commons a clause was introduced carrying out one of the recommendations of the Chancery Law Commission, depriving the Court of Chancery of the power of sending cases to a Court of Law. The object of such a clause was to make the Court of Chancery complete in its jurisdiction for deciding all cases brought before it, and to avoid the expense and delay consequent on referring questions once, twice, and, as occasionally happened, thrice to a court of common law. Having the highest respect for the judgment of the noble and learned Lords at whose instance the clause was disagreed to, he should have been disposed, but for the recommendation of the Commission, and that the subject bad been fully considered by the House, to suggest the adoption of the Amendment their Lordships had made; but as it was, he felt bound to move that it be not concurred in.
MR. BETHELLseconded the Motion.
SIR WILLIAM PAGE WOODdid not rise to oppose the Motion just made, but to make a few observations as to the alleged conduct of his right hon. and learned Friend the Master of the Rolls, in regard to one of these law Bills. It was with great pain he bad observed that any discussion affecting the conduct and integrity of his right hon. Friend, as a sincere, earnest, and ardent law reformer, had taken place elsewhere. He could not have supposed that from any source-—much less that from which it had emanated—any imputation could have arisen on his right hon. Friend's earnestness and sincerity; and he felt the more pained when he saw that imputation

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take the shape, not of direct accusation, but of insinuation, which was far worse— the form of that insinuation being that his right hon. and learned Friend the Master of the Rolls had taken in charge, or had connected himself with, the conduct of the Bill for the Relief of Suitors in Chancery; and that, having such conduct, he made the Bill rather a Master of the Rolls' Bill than a Lord Chancellor's Bill—that he used his position and his influence in the House for the purpose of obtaining advantages and increasing the patronage for the Master of the Rolls' Court, by increasing the number and the fees payable to the secretaries and other officers of that Court, while those of the Lord Chancellor's Court were reduced—and that he had obtained more patronage in respect to the office for issuing "orders in course." Now he (Sir W. P. Wood) had not spoken to his right hon. Friend on the subject; but he felt it his duty, in justice to his right hon. Friend, to say that the Bill in question had been introduced, not by the Master of the Rolls, but by himself, and that from the commencement of its progress through the House of Commons, his right hon. Friend had had no share in it. As he (Sir W. P. Wood) introduced the Bill on the part of the late Government, he wished to say that the Bill was framed by the late Lord Chancellor, in compliance with the recommendations of a Select Committee of that House; over which it was true that at one time the Master of the Rolls presided; but he had ceased to do so long before it decided on its report. One of the recommendations of the Committee was that "orders of course" should be abolished. The late Lord Chancellor was of opinion that those "orders of course" should not be abolished; but no communication was made to the Master of the Rolls, who was not aware of the provisions of the Bill till it was introduced. With regard to the retention or abolition of "orders of course," there were arguments on both sides; but, after deliberation, it was decided that their abolition should be omitted from the Bill. In the first week of the Session, he (Sir W, P. Wood), brought in the Bill, and up to that time and afterwards, the Master of the Rolls had no knowledge of the Bill beyond that possessed by other Members; he took part in the discussion which ensued, but there was no discussion on this particular matter. After the accession of the present Government to office, the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, at his
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request, took charge of the Bill, and treated it as a Government measure. From the end of February, therefore, the Bill was in the hands of the right hon. Gentleman, who proposed such new clauses and alterations as he saw fit; and if any alteration had been made with regard to this matter of "orders of course," it would have been discussed—but he did not. When he (Sir W. P. Wood) parted with the Bill, he was requested, like the noble and learned Lord in the other House, to present a petition from certain solicitors in the metropolis, which prayed that the recommendation of the Committee as to the abolition of "orders of course" should be adopted. He stated to the petitioners, that as he had brought in the Bill as a Member of the late Government, he did not think he was the proper person to make that suggestion, but that, if the question was raised, he was prepared to discuss it. The question, however, was never raised; but the Master of the Rolls had no part in preventing that discussion, nor did he take any part or share in the provisions beyond that taken by the other Members. He regretted that anything in the shape of an imputation should have been cast on the Master of the Rolls, with regard to his having taken any part in preventing the abolition of "orders of course;" and still more so when it was said that he had done so to benefit persons with whom he was connected. He (Sir W. P. Wood) confined himself strictly to explanation with regard to the passing of the Bill. He had no doubt that the Master of the Rolls could give a satisfactory explanation with regard to the appointment of a secretary; indeed, if "orders of course" were retained, there must be a secretary. With regard to the noble and learned Lord who made these observations (Lord Lyndhurst), he (Sir W. P. Wood), in common with the whole of his profession, entertained for him the greatest respect, and he could only regret that there should have been any suspicion in the mind of the noble and learned Lord as to the possibility of any impropriety of conduct in the Master of the Rolls. They were indebted to that right hon. Gentleman for his activity and constant attendance as a member of the Committee, and for his co-operation as the law adviser of the Government for its formation, as well as for the diligence, care, zeal, and honesty he had shown as a law reformer; and he should be sorry if the Session were to conclude with

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the least imputation remaining on his untarnished character.
The SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, that the House would no doubt feel perfectly satisfied with the explanation which had been given by the hon. and learned Member opposite, of the conduct and motives of the Master of the Rolls in these proceedings; and he (the Solicitor General) was warranted in saying, on behalf of the noble and learned Lord (Lord Lyndhurst) who had referred to this subject in the other House of Parliament, that there was not an individual in the country who more sincerely respected the eminent attainments and high character, both private and judicial, of the Master of the Rolls. It was true, that in the course of one of the many discussions that had arisen in the other House of Parliament with respect to the many great and important law reforms which had passed through Parliament in the latter half of the present Session, that noble and learned Lord did make some allusions to the course which he erroneously supposed had been taken by the Master of the Rolls with respect to the Suitors in Chancery Relief Bill. It was quite unnecessary for him (the Solicitor General) to say that his noble and learned Friend had been always perfectly ready to do justice (and indeed he believed that when his Lordship made these remarks, he had done so in express terms) to the high character and entire freedom from liability to imputation of the right hon. Gentleman the Master of the Rolls, in the matter to which allusion had been made. It was not surprising if, amidst the complicated matters which had from time to time been under consideration in connexion with the various legal reforms which had lately engaged the attention of Parliament, even one so eminently distinguished, not only for learning, but for extraordinary accuracy with respect to facts, should have been misled by a misapprehension on this occasion. That the statements of the noble and learned Lord were founded upon a misapprehension, he repeated; and he was sure that the House and his right hon. Friend the Master of the Rolls would be perfectly satisfied with that statement, in addition to the explanation which had been given by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir W. P. Wood). The extensive and indeed unparalleled series of legal reforms which had now passed through both Houses of Parliament, and were only awaiting the Royal
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Assent to become the law of the land, would effect the greatest improvement in the law, which had been made during the present century; and it would be matter of much regret if, after the great pains which had been taken by the Master of the Rolls in promoting this great public benefit, the slightest approach to personal imputation should be allowed to rest upon his high reputation. He might say, on behalf of his noble Friend and of Her Majesty's Government, that while they laid claim to the credit of having spared no effort to carry into effect these law reforms, they were quite ready to yield their tribute of gratitude and respect to that Commission of which the Master of the Rolls formed an important and essential Member, and to all who in either House of Parliament had aided them in those efforts to effect this great improvement in the law. He hoped and believed that great, extensive, and beneficial as those improvements were, they were only the first step to still greater improvements in a future Parliament—reforms to which, whether in or out of office, every Member of Her Majesty's Government would rejoice in lending his aid.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYbore testimony to the eminent services of the Master of the Rolls in the cause of legal reform.
Resolved —"That this House doth insist upon Clause (E), the said Amendment to which the Lords have disagreed."
Committee appointed," to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for insisting upon one of the Amendments to the said Bill, to which the Lords have disagreed."

PATENT LAW AMENDMENT HILL.
Lords Reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Amendments considered:—
Resolved—"That this House doth insist upon their Amendments in p. 9, 1. 1; and lines 14 and 15, to the said Bill, to which the Lords have disagreed; and agree to the Amendments made by the Lords to the Amendments made by this House."
Committee appointed, "to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for insisting upon certain of the Amendments to the said Bill to which the Lords have disagreed:—
Report of Reasons brought up, and read: Reasons read 2o, and agreed to:—?To be communicated to The Lords.

RELIGIOUS PROCESSIONS.
MR. H. BERKELEYsaid, that he rose to put to the Government a question of which he had given notice. He understood that the Secretary of State for the Home Department was unavoidably absent, but he hoped that the Solicitor General or the Under Secretary of State would give him an answer. His question had reference to the Roman Catholic processions, against which there had lately been a Royal Proclamation. It appeared that the Government had determined to enforce an Act for putting down these processions, and he wished to know whether that Act extended to the suppression of those imitations of Roman Catholic processions by clergymen of the Church of England which had notoriously taken place in different parts of the kingdom? And in the event of the existing Act not being sufficient to prevent such practices, which bade fair to create a breach of the peace, he wished to know whether the Government intended to introduce such an Act as would put a stop to practices which were scandalous to Protestantism and disgraceful to the Church of England?
The SOLICITOR GENERAL: I have to state, in the first place, that the Act of Parliament which is now in force has no operation upon any processions whatever, if such have ever had existence, in which clergymen of the Church of England only have borne part, that Act applying entirely to processions consisting of Roman Catholic priests and Roman Catholic persons. With regard to the second question of my hon. Friend, I have only to state that Her Majesty's Government are not at all aware of the law having been violated, or even of any such processions as those alluded to having taken place in any part of the kingdom. It is, therefore, scarcely necessary for me to add, that they have no intention of proposing in this or any future Session of Parliament any measure of the kind referred to with respect to clergymen of the Church of England.

THE CASE OF LEOPOLD DE ROSE.
LORD DUDLEY STUARTmoved for a copy of the depositions taken at Gosport on the case of Leopold de Rose, who was sentenced to imprisonment with hard labour on a charge of begging. The noble Lord stated the particulars of the case, to the effect that Mr. de Rose obtained a livelihood by selling drawings, and that he
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had been falsely accused by Captain Hamilton of begging, on which charge he had been committed to fourteen days' imprisonment and hard labour. The noble Lord stated that Captain Hamilton had also insulted him by telling him that, as a Pole, he belonged to the most rascally set of scoundrels that ever were let loose on this country. The noble Lord then proceeded to point out the injustice of the case, remarking that, even if the poor Pole had solicited alms, it would have been harsh treatment to give him into custody. It was only a few days since an Austrian officer, who had been engaged in the war against Hungary, applied to him for relief, and he considered he would have disgraced himself had he given that man into custody. And yet Captain Hamilton had thought it not unbecoming in a British officer to be instrumental in imprisoning a poor Pole, who had committed no offence, for fourteen days, with hard labour. The conduct of the magistrate was, however, equally reprehensible; for there could have been no necessity for visiting so slight an offence—if even an offence had been committed, which he denied—with such great severity. A case of this sort was a disgrace to a country which boasted of affording protection to the exiled and the unfortunate. He (Lord D. Stuart) had known Mr. De Rose many years, and he had always found him an honourable, straightforward man. He believed that he had never applied to any one for pecuniary assistance, and he had never applied to the Society of the Friends of Poland. The noble Lord then read the following letters, the first of which was from Thomas Hoskins, Esq., lately Tithe Commissioner, and now Auditor of the Accounts of the Guardians of the Poor at Gosport, Portsmouth, and the Isle of Wight:—
"Gosport, 26th June, 1852.
"My Lord—At the request of my excellent friend the Mayor of Southampton, I have felt great pleasure in accompanying Lieut. Szulczewski and Mr. Leopold de Rose to the several places of abode of Mr. Tilston, Mr. Wyatt, Mr. Biden, Capt. Blake, Mr. Meggs, Mrs. Welch, Miss Slane, and Miss Nott—all of whom I have known for many years as most highly respectable people— and I can assure your Lordship that I have heard with great delight the testimony which each of those ladies and gentlemen gave to the character and deportment of Mr. Leopold de Rose, who, although reduced to the necessity of offering his articles for sale, always did so with the marked conduct of a highly honourable man and a gentleman; he was immediately recognised by each, was most pleasantly received by all, and deeply

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sympathised with for the manner in which he had been treated, which, as some did not hesitate to state, was a disgrace to the country. So far from begging, one lady stated, that she had offered him two shillings for an article of one shilling value, which he most honourably declined to take. The result is most satisfactory to my mind, that Mr. De Rose has behaved in this neighbourhood in a manner highly creditable to himself and his country, and that he is entitled to the esteem and the sympathy of all who detest tyranny and oppression.—I have the honour to be, your Lordship's most obedient servant,
"THOMAS HOSKINS."
The second, from one of the justices of the peace for the county of Hants, was as follows: —
"26th June, 1852.
"My Lord—I had a visit yesterday from Lieut. Charles Szulczewski and Mr. De Rose; the former came to make inquiries of me respecting Mr. Do Rose's imprisonment for begging, &c. I can only-say I consider he has been shamefully used by Captain Hamilton, who resided at Anglesey, near Gosport, and who is now appointed to a ship at Woolwich. My brother magistrate, Dr. Hillyer, could do no more than imprison Mr. De Rose, as Captain Hamilton swore that he 'wandered abroad to bog and gather alms, contrary to the form of the statute in such case made,' &c. &c. Now it does appear to me to be a very extraordinary thing that Mr. De Rose should beg of Captain Hamilton, when I well know that Mr. De Rose could get 5l. or 10 l. whenever he liked to ask for it, by writing to a neighbour of mine, one of the first families in the county, but he has never done so. Moreover, the policeman took Mr. De Rose into custody without a warrant, and without seeing him ask alms."
Now he thought that after reading these letters, he was justified in saying that, though Captain Hamilton swore he had begged of him, he did not believe him, though, at the same time, he did not believe that a British officer would state on his oath that which he considered was not true. He believed that Captain Hamilton got into a great fury, and really did not know what he was about, or what was said.
Motion made, and Question proposed —
"That there he laid before this House, a Copy of the Depositions taken at Gosport on the case of Leopold de Rose, who was sentenced to imprisonment, with hard labour, on the 13th day of November, 1851."
M H. BERKELEYsaid, he knew Captain de Rose, who was introduced to him by some of the most respectable men in the city of Bristol. He had observed about him great delicacy of mind; he was evidently a man labouring under misfortune, who wished to put on the best appearance he could. Whenever any attempt had been made to give him money, he shrank from it. He trusted that Govern-
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ment would make an inquiry into this case.
SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEsaid, he ought, perhaps, to take some blame on himself in not having pressed more strongly than he had done on the noble Lord his wish that he should postpone this Motion in consequence of the absence of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Walpole). He regretted still more that the noble Lord should have thought it his duty to go into a long accusation against persons who were not present, and who had no means whatever of making any answer. It appeared most extraordinary that this matter had been allowed to sleep for months, and that persons in the neighbourhood, who took an interest in the matter, had made no representation to the Home Office. If any such representation had been made either to the present Secretary of State, or to his predecessor, the fullest possible investigation would have been made. He understood that it was unusual to furnish copies of the depositions taken in such cases as the present; but he would take care that such an investigation should be made, and he would inform the noble Lord of the result—but he could not now consent to the Motion.
MR. CHISHOLM ANSTEYdid not think that gentlemen in the position of Mr. De Rose had any encouragement to look to the Home Office for redress, after the treatment of another Pole, who was not a poor Pole like Mr. De Rose, but who, without any other charge than that he was a Pole, had been taken out of his own House, placed in a cell for twelve hours, and his papers ransacked—had appealed to the Home Office and obtained no redress— and when, after six months had elapsed, he applied to his attorney, he found that it was too late, according to the Act of Parliament, to seek redress in a court of law. If the noble Lord pressed his Motion to a division for the production of the depositions, he would vote with him. The hon. Baronet said it was not usual to produce such depositions; that might be, but it should also be remembered that the case itself was a most unusual one.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I feel bound to say that, in my opinion, this is clearly a case deserving investigation, and I cannot for a moment doubt but that the Government will feel bound to look into it most narrowly and minutely. I think my noble Friend has acted with strict propriety in bringing forward this case; and as to the observation that he made ex-

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parte charges, and implicated the names of absent individuals, I must say I think that these matters are inseparable from a question like the present. I am sure, my noble Friend, in bringing forward this question, has only displayed that honourable and humane feeling towards the helpless and distressed that has ever characterised his conduct—and for which every one who listens to me must be willing to give him credit. As to the Motion before the House, I have no doubt but that the Government will redeem its pledge, and that full inquiry into the case will be at once instituted; and should they find, after full investigation, that the parties concerned have abused the powers entrusted to them, that the Government will take such steps as will prevent a recurrence of such conduct. I hope my noble Friend will now withdraw the Motion.
LORD DUDLEY STUARTsaid, his object would be attained if Government would make an inquiry, and he therefore withdrew the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
The House adjourned at Four o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—la Suitors in Chancery Relief (No. 2).
3a Consolidated Fund (Appropriation). ROYAL ASSENT.—Industrial and Provident Societies; Turnpike Trusts Arrangements; Scutch Mills for Flax (Ireland); Burghs (Scotland); General Board of Health; Disabilities Repeal Representative Peers for Scotland Act Amendment; Passengers Act Amendment; Poor Law Commission Continuance (Ireland); Differential Dues; Militia; Trustees Act Extension; Enfranchisement of Copyholds; Property of Lunatics; School Sites Acts Extension; Bishopric of Quebec; Colonial Bishops; County Courts Further Extension; Navy Pay; Appointment of Overseers; Hereditary Casual Revenues in the Colonies; Corrupt Practices at Elections; Protestant Dissenters; Pharmacy; New Zealand Government; Turnpike Acts Continuance; Poor Law Board Continuance; Inland Revenue Office; Savings Banks (Ireland); Excise Summary Proceedings; Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues; Valuation (Ireland); Metropolitan Sewers; Friendly Societies (No. 2); Crime and Outrage (Ireland); Incumbered Estates (Ireland); Distressed Unions (Ireland); Common Law Procedure; Secretary of Bankrupts Office Abolition; Militia Ballots Suspension; Militia Pay; Nisi Prius Officers; General Board of Health (No. 2); County Rates; Commons Inclosure Acts Extension; Master in Chancery Abolition; Thames Embankment; Holloway House of Correction.

THE CASE OF MR. MATHER.
The EARL of MALMESBURY: My Lords, in laying on your Lordships' table the conclusion of the correspondence respecting the assault on Mr. Mather, I have great satisfaction in informing your Lord-

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ships that our dispute with the Court of Tuscany has been entirely and satisfactorily settled. We owe this result to the ablity and tact of Sir Henry Bulwer, who, as your Lordships are aware, arrived three weeks ago at the Court of the Grand Duke of Tuscany. Having found the negotiation in a very difficult position, Sir Henry Bulwer, with his usual talent, so gained the confidence and good will of that Court, that he has obtained from them, in the most explicit manner, the recognition of the principle which Her Majesty's Government throughout these negotiations have insisted upon, namely, the recognition on the part of the Government of Tuscany of its liability to protect British subjects according to the international law of independent States. In addition to that recognition he has received from the Duke of Casigliano, the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Government of Tuscany, a complete, unequivocal, and satisfactory expression of regret at all that has occurred during this disagreeable dispute. I cannot sufficiently praise the ability and tact which Sir Henry Bulwer has shown in this business, for he has concluded it by leaving our respective Courts upon such an amicable footing that at no time have our relations with the Court of Tuscany been more completely friendly than they are at this moment.

THE ANCIENT LAWS AND INSTITUTES OF IRELAND.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that when he first gave notice of his intention to move for the "Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the Ancient Laws and Institutes of Ireland," he had believed that very interesting paper to have been laid before the House of Commons only. He subsequently found that it had been moved for in the House of Lords by the Vice-President of the Board of Trade (Lord Colchester). His Motion in its original form was therefore unnecessary; but to bring himself within the rules of order, he should move for copies of any subsequent communications addressed to the Government, on the subject of that Report. The object he had in view was to invite his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Derby) to communicate the intentions of the Government on a subject which, though free from party interest, was of great public importance to all who were desirous of elucidating our early laws, history, and manners. It appeared from the Report
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that a most valuable collection of the ancient Irish Brehon laws had been made in Ireland by the eminent philologist, Edward Llwyd; this collection passed into the hands of the late Sir John Sebright, by whom it was presented to Trinity College, Dublin. The suggestion which led to this gift is said to have come from Edmund Burke, whose high authority was thus given to an undertaking which he considered important both on literary and historical grounds. Burke had in other cases also, as well as his contemporary, Flood, manifested a desire that the ancient records of Ireland should be made accessible to students. There were collections of the same laws preserved at the Bodleian and the British Museum. A fourth collection had also existed at Stowe, made for the late Duke of Buckingham by Dr. O'Connor, and now the property of Lord Ashburnham. He might be permitted to observe in passing how much the literary world owed to the Duke of Buckingham for having printed, at his own expense, the four volumes of the Rerum Hiberni-carum Scriptores —which he was enabled, on the high authority of his late right hon. Friend Sir James Mackintosh, to describe as one of the most interesting and important records existing. These literary treasures were thus scattered, unedited, and not available for any practical purposes whatever. A representation of these facts was made to his noble Friend Lord Clarendon, when Lord Lieutenant, who, with the assent of Lord John Russell's Board of Treasury, named two distinguished ornaments of the Irish University, Dr. Todd and Dr. Graves, to inquire and to report on the subject. It appeared that these laws were most curious, and of high antiquity. The MSS. in Dublin go no further back, it is true, than the early part of the 14th century. But the laws themselves attain a much higher antiquity; being traceable to Cormac in 908, and containing proofs of having existed so far anterior as in the 5th century. On these MSS. the Commissioners report—
"Apart from their mere antiquity, these laws are possessed of considerable interest to the historian and jurist. They lay down the privileges and duties of persons of all classes; they define the tenure of land and the rights of property of all kinds. In a word, they furnish a perfect picture of the society which they were designed to regulate, from the constitution of the kingdom, and the relation subsisting between the Sovereign and the provincial kings, down to the minutest details of domestic life among the serfs."

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What he wished his noble Friend to consider was the importance of losing no time in carrying out the recommendations of the Commissioners by undertaking the collation and publication of these early laws, at the public expense. Already the Anglo-Saxon and the Welsh laws had been so dealt with. The present opportunity was one of peculiar importance, which should not be neglected or lost. There were several learned men now living, who were capable of executing the duties of transcribers and editors; but the Commissioners state that "death and emigration were fast removing the number of persons so qualified." He was aware that on the part of some who, to him, appeared not only prejudiced but shallow reasoners, there was felt some apprehension that the publication of these ancient records might stimulate national feelings of restlessness and discontent. He did not participate in what he considered so weak and irrational an alarm. But on this subject he should take the liberty of reading an extract from the Report itself, which would serve to remove these fears, wherever they might be found to exist. For himself he needed not any confirmation of what he considered an undeniable principle, namely, that the publication and diffusion of truth could not be other than useful in all cases, and without any exception. The Commissioners took special but not inconsistent grounds. They state—
"There are some circumstances which would render the publication of these ancient laws peculiarly interesting in the eyes of the politician. It is not improbable that the habits of thought and action prevailing amongst the native Irish are reflected in the laws which they framed for themselves before they were affected by foreign influences, and to which they continued to cling with obstinate tenacity, even for centuries after they bad been compelled to submit to British rule. The Brehon Laws were actually appealed to so late as the reign of Charles I. We must not, therefore, be surprised to find some traces yet remaining of their effect upon society.
"We would also suggest that good results would be obtained by exhibiting the real state of this country at a remote period of its history. It would then be found that false or exaggerated notions have been entertained of the well-being of society and the advancement of civilisation in early times. Ireland never enjoyed a golden age. It would be more true to say, that she suffered for many ages under an iron feudalism, which administered essentially different laws to the rich and to the poor. Ignorance on this head has certainly created in some minds an unreasonable dissatisfaction with the present order of things, and a perverse disposition to thwart the efforts of those who are doing their utmost to ameliorate it. Nothing could be more efficacious in dispelling such morbid
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national prejudices than a complete publication of the ancient Irish laws."
But he had other authorities in favour of the suit which he urged on his noble Friend: men of the highest eminence, abroad and at home, Hallam and Macauley, Lord Mahon, M. GuiÔzt, Professor Ranke, and Professor Grimm of Berlin, had all expressed the strongest opinions on the subject. Mr. Hallam says—
"The publication of the Irish laws as a national undertaking, would he honourable to our Government; and in a literary view, such a publication would be of high value. Laws do more to give a knowledge of society than brief chronicles or suspicious tradition."
M. GuizÔt says—
"I consider that the publication of the ancient Irish laws is of the highest importance to historical knowledge, not only in your country but throughout Europe. These laws are at once the most ancient and the most recent records of the civilisation of early European society; because they rise to an earlier epoch, and have existed in vigour to a later period than any other collection of the same kind."
He regretted that he had not on this occasion the assistance and support of a noble Friend of his, the Earl of Rosse, the President of the Royal Society, whose high character in literature and science would give weight to the application he ventured to urge. But he was entitled to say, that he had that noble Lord's hearty concurrence. He had already observed that the Commission had been issued under the authority of Lord Clarendon, and of Lord John Russell's Government. The report was made, however, after the change of Administration, to the present Lord Lieutenant, the Earl of Eglintoun, and was recommended by that nobleman to the favourable consideration of the present Treasury. He, therefore, hoped that his noble Friend (Lord Derby) would complete the work well began by his predecessors, would attend to the recommendation of his own political Friend, that he would gratify the men of letters in Ireland and in this country, and would also make to historical students throughout Europe a gift which they would receive most thankfully. He had looked with anxiety to see a vote proposed to Parliament for this creditable object. None such, had however, been taken: and the Appropriation Act was now on the table, and was about to be read a third time that night. But his noble Friend was doubtless aware (though not long connected with the Treasury), that he had contingent

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funds at his command that might be employed in this service, and they could not be employed in a better one. With these closing observations, he would ask his noble Friend whether he had considered the report addressed to Lord Clarendon by Dr. Todd and Dr. Grace, on the subject of the ancient Irish manuscript laws, and whether he was disposed to recommend their publication at the public expense? The noble Lord concluded by moving—
"That there he laid before the House, Copy of the Report of the Commissioners appointed by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to inquire concerning the ancient Laws and Institutes of Ireland: and also, Copy of the Letter from the Chief or Under Secretary for Ireland forwarding the same to the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury."
The EARL of DERBYadmitted that the subject to which the noble Lord had referred was one of great interest, and he might say of no inconsiderable importance; but, in consequence of the pressure of business during the Session, he had not been able to give that attention to the subject which it deserved. After the prorogation he and the Government would turn their attention to the subject, in the hope of being able to attain the object which his noble Friend had in view. With regard to the Motion now made by his noble Friend, he believed—indeed, he was sure —that no further communications had taken place since the production of the report.
LORD MONTEAGLE, after the statement just made, would withdraw his Motion leaving the matter with confidence in the hands of his noble Friend, whose reply was as favourable as under the circumstances he had any right to expect.
Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE SESSION.
LORD LYNDHLRST: Shortly after the formation of the present Government, and, I believe, before my noble Friend took his seat in this House as the head of the Government, I took the liberty of bringing under the notice of your Lordships many important questions which were to be dealt with, as well as the state of private business and the state of the judicial business, a vast arrear of which was pending. I thought it my duty on that occasion to go through in detail the various measures then before Parliament, calling on your Lordships strongly to oppose that cry which
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had been raised for an immediate dissolution, as that, I felt, would deeply affect the public interests, and be most injurious to many private individuals. I spoke of those measures requiring legislation at the time so much in detail, that it is quite unnecessary for me to refer to that statement again: it is sufficient for me to say that every one of those measures is now the law of the land. I may further state that, in addition to the measures to which I then called your Lordships' attention, there are others, of very considerable importance, which have also become part of the law of the land. The only measure to which I shall at all particularly refer, is the constitution granted to New Zealand. I refer to that merely for the purpose of stating that not only has great benefit been conferred on that particular colony, but in the Bill granting that constitution principles have been laid down applicable to other colonics, which will, no doubt, have the effect of removing the dissatisfaction and discontent that have so long prevailed among them. I referred to the private business then before Parliament, It happened to have accumulated to a very large extent. The greater portion of that business, involving property to an enormous amount, by the unwearied assiduity of my noble Friend who presides over the Committees of this House (Lord Redes-dale), has been completely disposed of. With respect to the judicial business of the House, I stated on the former occasion to which I have referred, that a delay of justice was in many cases a denial. That business is almost entirely completed. There is scarcely an arrear of appeal now on your Lordships' table. Referring to what I formerly said, I have thought it my duty to come down to the House for the purpose of making this statement, and congratulating the country on the course pursued by my noble Friend at the head of the Government. I thank my noble Friend for the firmness with which he resisted those repeated attacks which were made—those clamours which were raised, on account of his resisting the cry for an immediate dissolution. It was of the greatest importance to the country that the proceedings to which I refer should have taken place. I may venture to say, further, that, during the four months that have elapsed since my noble Friend came into office, Bills of greater importance have passed your Lordships' House, than have passed during any Session since the com-

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mencement of the present Parliament; and I am sure my humble thanks, and the thanks of the country, are due to my noble Friend for having resisted the clamours that were raised.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, the noble and learned Lord had congratulated the House on so many Bills having passed: but he perceived that there was one Bill in which the noble and learned Lord might be supposed to have a deep interest, which was not likely to become a part of the law of the land—he meant the Parliamentary Proceedings Facilitation Bill, which he believed was introduced by the noble and learned Lord himself. That Bill was intended to prevent the great crush of business which usually accumulated in their Lordships' House towards the close of a Session; and the present Session had not been an exception in respect to that accumulation; for at the last sitting but one of that House no less than thirty-six public Bills proceeded through one stage or another. Now, that, he (Lord Beaumont) thought, was scarcely a creditable way of considering the public business. Many of those Bills were of the utmost importance. Some of them contained an immense quantity of details. Many of them involved important interests, both public and private. There was the Metropolitan Burials Bill, which involved interests of that description. Many of these Bills, if they had been brought to that House at an earlier period of the Session, would have been referred to Select Committees; and he had no doubt that, if they had undergone that process, they would have been materially improved. The state of the Session had unfortunately prevented the House from adopting that course; and he had, therefore, almost a right to conclude, or, at all events, he had cause to be afraid, that many of those Bills would become the law of the land in a very imperfect state. Many of the Bills, on the passing of which the noble and learned Lord had congratulated the House, had only recently passed through the House; there was no doubt then, that in consequence of the dissolution of Parliament being so imminent, those Bills could not have received that mature consideration which ampler time would have permitted their Lordships to bestow upon them. He did not, however, deny that great and useful measures had been adopted by Parliament during the present Session, and that many important Bills had been well considered and much improved in their
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course through either House. But he did not think that the circumstance of both Houses having done their duty was any matter of congratulation, or any matter of just compliment to the Government. If any compliment was due, it was due to both Houses for having transacted their business. But could it be supposed that the Houses would not have equally done their duty if there had been a dissolution at an earlier day, and a new Parliament had been called at an earlier period? He had no doubt that another Parliament would have done its duty equally as well as the Parliament then sitting. The whole of the compliment, therefore, if any was due, was due merely to an expiring Parliament, for the manner in which it had conducted its business. In the House of Lords and in the House of Commons, the Government had, over and over again, declared that they were in a minority. The Houses had, therefore, acted with leniency, and shown great forbearance towards Ministers in permitting them to continue with a Parliament in which they had not a majority, and allowing them to proceed with the Bills to which the noble and learned Lord had alluded. There was no credit whatever due to the Government for what they had done. The credit belonged to the Parliamentary majority, for it was owing to the conduct of that majority that the Bills had become the law of the land. The compliment was due to the Opposition and not to the minority. Therefore, whilst joining with the noble and learned Lord in saying, that great and important measures had been passed during the present Session, yet he must claim for the majority, and not for the minority, for the Opposition, and not for the Government, the credit of that result.
LORD LYNDHURSTexplained, with respect to the Bill to which the noble Lord had referred as involving a matter personal to himself, that to the question why he had not taken steps for passing that Bill in the present Session, the answer was most simple—the Bill did not apply to a new Parliament; it would not have applied to the next Session; therefore, he thought it better to postpone it to the next Parliament. So much for that. With regard to the other topics adverted to, if the noble Lord would only calculate a little, he would find that if Parliament had been dissolved, it would have been impossible for it to have met for the despatch of business at such a time as would have allowed it to

1401
pass one half of the Bills which would now he the law of the land. The noble Lord, as it seemed, had understood him to say that the present Government were entitled to the merit of the measures passed. He thought he could make out a case satisfactory even to the noble Lord. His compliment to the noble Earl at the head of the Government was for the noble Earl's firmness in resisting the attacks made on him to induce a dissolution of Parliament, and for proceeding with measures which otherwise would have been hung up till the next Session. He did not deny the merit due to the other House of Parliament, and also the merit of thi3 House, in having passed those Bills. He never meant to deny that he thanked his noble Friend for himself, and in the name of the country, for the firmness of the course he pursued. His noble Friend was, he thought, well entitled to the thanks of the country.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack was entitled to great praise for the manner in which he had urged forward the great measures of law amendment to which the noble and learned Lord opposite had referred. He had never hesitated to express his opinion as to the great merit of the Government in reference to the measures of law reform—he had so expressed himself only two days ago, when the most important of those measures was before their Lordships. At the same time, his noble and learned Friend must admit that the merit of originating these measures belonged to the Commission appointed by the late Government, and, he would add, to the late Government itself; for though his noble and learned Friend and himself had a discussion with the late Lord Chancellor on the subject at the beginning of the Session, and had expressed their surprise at, and discontent with, the delay which had occurred in carrying into effect the recommendations of the Commissioners according to the intentions of the Government as announced in the Speech from the Throne, he would take upon him to say, that there had been a complete understanding come to in consequence of that discussion commenced by his noble Friend (Lord Lyndhurst), and himself, and that the apparent discrepancy of which they had complained, between the Members of the Government in the two Houses, having been speedily removed, the resolution was fully come to, that the most effectual steps should be taken for preparing a Bill
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or Bills to carry into effect the recommendations of the Commission. That little progress had been made in the formal preparation of those Bills by the late Government, he admitted; but much more progress had been made than was supposed. At all events, the measures which were suggested by the Commissioners, and adopted by the late Government, had been taken up and adopted by his noble and learned Friend opposite (Lord Lyndhurst), and by his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack, fortunately, with his accustomed perseverance and vigour, and he had, as might be expected, proved an effectual workman, and drawn Bills in accordance with the recommendations of the Commissioners; the result was, that most of those recommendations would now become the law of the land. For these great legal reforms the country had to thank the late as well as the present Government; but the credit of the measures themselves was mainly due to the labours of that most able and enlightened body of men who composed the Commission. To them were owing measures which, by, he trusted, a very slight anticipation, his noble and learned Friend had said were now the law of the land. But here he must pause to remark, that in every branch of human improvement, whether in science, in arts, or in other departments, the progress appeared ever to be gradual; for the sciences, his noble and learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst), an old mathematician, well knew there was hardly any exception to the rule other than the discovery of logarithms; and certainly the progress of political science fell peculiarly within the rule. So of this great measure, their Lordships would find that above ten years ago it was not merely shadowed out, but in great part described, in the answer of certain of the Masters in Chancery to Lord Langdale's inquiry touching the proper method of reforming the Court of Chancery. The letter of his (Lord Brougham's) hon. relative contained the suggestion, of the very plan now adopted, in which Lord Lang-dale entirely concurred. Again, the subject was broached in their Lordships' Committee last Session on the Masters' Bill, of which he (Lord Brougham) had the honour to be chairman. The subject would be found to be fully discussed in the evidence there taken six months before the Commissioners framed their Report. But far be it from him to doubt for a moment that to the Commissioners and the late and

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present Government the country owes this great improvement, for which it never can be too thankful. He only wished to note how long a period had elapsed between the first proposal and the final adoption of the plan.
LORD LYNDHURSTwas understood to explain the sense in which he spoke of measures brought in by the Government and passed being the law of the land. With respect to those great questions of Chancery reform, he begged to call the attention of their Lordships to the fact that, when it was stated in the other House of Parliament that one of the necessary measures to be passed before a dissolution was the Bill which had been mentioned, a shout of derision was raised, and a great deal of humorous observation was made about "putting Parliament into Chancery," as if it were perfectly impracticable, in the opinion of Members of that House, that the measure could be passed this Session. Referring to the opinion, as far as he could collect it, of the noble and learned Lord lately on the woolsack, with respect to the recommendations of the Commission, he owned he did really suspect at one time that the measure was not likely to pass during the present Session. But his noble and learned Friend now on the woolsack, notwithstanding that he was labouring under severe indisposition, setting his shoulders to the wheel, entered on the question with so much activity and intelligence, and with such mastery of his subject, being also a very skilful draughtsman, that, owing to that activity, diligence, and intelligence, the Government succeeded in passing those most important Bills.
LORD BROUGHAMobserved, that his noble and learned Friend lately on the woolsack (Lord Truro) had entertained objections to some of the recommendations of the Commissioners; but when he had arrived at an understanding with the rest of the Government as to the amendments to be adopted, he instantly took steps to carry through the measure, to the best of his ability, and with the utmost of his industry, which was unsurpassed. That he would have carried those reforms into effect, and that had he remained in office, they would have been the law of the land before now, there could be no manner of doubt. When his noble and learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst) expressed doubts how far the late Chancellor originally agreed with the Report of the Commissioners, it might be observed that others as well as he had been con-
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verted by fuller discussion to embrace the plan now so universally approved. If he mistook not, his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack had shown this exemplary candour among others, of whom he should mention his right hon. and learned Friend Vice-Chancellor Turner, who, when examined in their Lordships' Committee last Session was adverse to the plan, but became, upon fuller inquiry as a Commissioner, one of its most zealous and he (Lord Brougham) need not add, most able supporters.
LORD LYNDHURSTexpressed his conviction that the late Lord Chancellor, when he made up his mind as to the propriety of any measure, would, by the application of his intelligence, and in consistency with his honourable character, use every exertion to carry such measure into effect. His (Lord Lyndhurst's) only doubt arose from what passed in that House. He was by no means satisfied that the noble and learned Lord had made up his mind. But he was sure that, when the noble and learned Lord had done so, no sacrifice of time, no sacrifice of patience, would have prevented the noble and learned Lord from doing his utmost in carrying that measure into effect. There was not a person of more integrity, honour, and steady perseverance, than that noble and learned Lord.
EARL GREYobserved, that at the time the noble and learned Lord was said not to have made up his mind, he had not, if he (Earl Grey) recollected rightly, been for forty-eight hours in possession of the important Report on which he was called upon to give an opinion. It would have been impossible to do the subject justice, without a proper time for deliberation.
The EARL of DERBY: My Lords, I am not very willing to add anything to this conversation; yet it is impossible for me, after what has taken place, to abstain from expressing my grateful thanks to my noble and learned Friend behind me (Lord Lyndhurst) for the testimony which he has borne to the public utility of the course which has been pursued by Her Majesty's Government during the present Session. But, my Lords, I think it would be exceedingly ungrateful, both to your Lordships and to the other House of Parliament, if I were to accept the compliment which my noble and learned Friend has paid to myself and to the other Members of the Government, without at the same time admitting, in the frankest and most

1405
unequivocating manner, that, for the success which has attended the measures which we have thought it our duty to press upon the attention of the Legislature, we are, in great measure, indebted to the absence of party spirit, both in this and in the other House of Parliament, which has eminently characterised the discussions of the present Session, and to the fairness with which our measures have been received both here and elsewhere, and without which it would have been exceedingly difficult for us to have carried our measures within the time allotted for the duration of the Session. And, my Lords, I think that if Her Majesty's Government are entitled to any of that merit for which my noble and learned Friend has given us credit, we are entitled to it especially for this—namely, for having resisted the importunities from various quarters, urging upon us, in the most vehement manner, to dissolve Parliament, at a time when it would have been exceedingly convenient, personally, to ourselves, to dissolve; but when we were restrained from adopting that step, and advising Her Majesty to take that course, by the consideration that, however convenient it might be to us, personally, to have a dissolution of Parliament at that moment, it would have entailed upon the country the great inconvenience of the postponement of many useful measures which we thought it to be our bounden duty to attempt to carry into law. My Lords, when I had the honour of addressing this House upon assuming the office to which Her Majesty appointed me, I specified certain measures which I admitted to be of paramount importance, and which I thought it was urgent or desirable, at all events, if not absolutely necessary, to pass into a law before appealing to the country by a dissolution of Parliament. My Lords, first and foremost among those measures I placed the contribution to the national defences of the country, involved in the passing of the Militia Bill—admitted by the late Government, and admitted by the present Government, to be a matter of imperative necessity; as next in importance, I referred to those great legal reforms for the suggestions of which we are, no doubt, indebted to the labours of the Commission appointed by our predecessors, but for the whole of the arrangements of which, and for the whole machinery upon which these Bills were founded on the Reports of the Commission, we are mainly, if not altogether, indebted to the activity, and zeal,
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and knowledge which were brought to bear upon the subject by my noble and learned Friend who has just left the woolsack (Lord St. Leonards). My Lords, in passing I must say—although I do not wish to draw any contrast whatever between ourselves and our predecessors, nor deprive them of any credit for their good intentions in pressing those measures on the consideration of Parliament—I must be permitted, in consequence of what has fallen from the noble Earl, to say that while he takes credit to the late Lord Chancellor for great prudence in having abstained from giving his opinion within forty-eight hours after having received the Report of the Commis-mission—admitting the fact to be that the late Lord Chancellor up to that moment had not made up his mind—yet I must at the same time be permitted to remind your Lordships that it seems rather singular, and somewhat inconsistent, that there should be a declaration in Her Majesty's Speech from the Throne expressing a determination on the part of the late Government to introduce measures founded upon the Report of the Commissioners, if the late Lord Chancellor at the time had not made up his mind whether it would be in his power to support those measures. And while I frankly admit that the credit of the measures themselves is due to the labours of the Commissioners, I must repeat that with regard to these measures, when we came into office there was not a single step taken towards bringing them into practical effect—there was not a single clause of the Bill drawn up. My Lords, in addition to the Militia Bill and those important legal reforms, with respect to which we had the testimony of the noble and learned Lord, the late Lord Chancellor, when he said that the magnitude and importance of the legal measures just passed would make the present Session memorable in the history of this reign and century—in addition to this, he thought it was of the utmost importance that no longer delay should exist in carrying into practical effect measures for extending representative institutions to one of our distant colonies, with regard to which, he said, if no measure had been passed, matters, in his opinion, would have been left in the most unsatisfactory position. Beyond this, we felt it was a matter of urgency and importance, if it were possible to do so, to introduce and carry through Parliament those measures which have been so long and so anxiously desired by this great metropolis;

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namely, measures for contributing to the health and comfort of its inhabitants, by promoting a system of extra-mural interment of the dead, and by improving and increasing the supply of water to the metropolis. My Lords, I stated at the commencement of the Session that we were desirous of abstaining, as far as possible, from all topics of a party or controversial character; and, if we deserve credit for anything, it is for having justly estimated that degree of public spirit which we believed would prevail both in this and the other House of Parliament, and for having believed that they would permit us to act upon the principle which we had announced, namely, of refraining from urging forward those measures which might lead to controversy, and inviting them to join with us, regardless of party considerations, in pressing forward those great measures which, apart from everything not imperatively called for by the good of the country, involved the military defences of the country, the promotion of vast improvements in the courts of law and equity, and provided for the sanitary welfare of the country. My Lords, I am happy to say that the House of Commons and your Lordships' House have fully justified the estimate which we formed of the public spirit of the Legislature. And although the expectation that it was possible to pass all those Bills, nay, I might almost say the possibility of passing any of them, was treated, in most instances, with a species of contemptuous ridicule, we have the satisfaction of seeing, at the close of one of the shortest Sessions on record, that not one of these great objects remains unaccomplished; and if this Government should cease to exist from the day upon which I am speaking, it will be a source of unfeigned congratulation and satisfaction to me, that the four months during which we have held office, have been marked by the passing of measures as important and as beneficial to the public interest, as have been passed in any previous Session under any Administration, however strong, and however powerful. But, my Lords, I must be permitted to say one word with reference to what fell from the noble Baron (Lord Beaumont) opposite, with regard to the credit which is due to the late Government. I hope that I have given credit where credit is due to the forbearance which characterised this and the other House of Parliament. But when he speaks with regard to the Government being notoriously in a minority in this
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and the other House of Parliament, the noble Lord will allow me to remind you that with regard to all those questions, the success which has attended them has not been owing to the forbearance of the supposed majority in expressing their opinions upon them; for most of those measures— some of them at all events—have encountered a resolute and determined opposition —an opposition not carried beyond fair and constitutional limits, but, at the same time, a persevering opposition; and there is no proof with regard to any of those measures, or any measure which we have thought it necessary to submit to the consideration of Parliament, that we have been, as a Government, in a minority in this or in the other House of Parliament. My Lords, upon one question in the other House, the Government were, no doubt, in a minority. That was a question on which it was thought (and I think not justifiably) among those that we were departing from the understanding we had held out at the commencement of the Session, and that it was a measure which ought not to be included among those which it was necessary to press forward during the present Parliament. That measure was objected to, not upon its merits, but on account of the period at which it was brought forward. My Lords, I have never concealed from your Lordships that with regard to one class of questions, Her Majesty's Government, if they had urged them forward, would have been in a minority in the other House of Parliament, and possibly in a minority in this; but I say that, with regard to the several measures which we have thought it urgent to press upon the consideration of Parliament, we have shown, in this and the other House of Parliament, that, in the carrying of those measures, we have not been deprived of the confidence of this or of the other branch of the Legislature. My Lords, we gratefully acknowledge that, while we have pursued, to the best of our ability, the course which I took the liberty of sketching out at the commencement of the Session, we have met with no factious opposition; we have encountered nothing but a fair, legitimate, and constitutional opposition in the other House of Parliament; and to your Lordships my especial thanks are due, for the consideration and kindness with which you have dealt with the measures which have been brought before you. I must say that if we had pursued the course which was suggested by the noble Lord opposite, and by some other Gentlemen—if we had

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dissolved Parliament at the commencement of the Session, and resumed the consideration of those measures at the commencement of a new Parliament, which might have met somewhere about the time at which I am now addressing your Lordships, I am perfectly of opinion that the result would have been, not only that time would have been absolutely wanting for carrying out those great measures, and one Session of Parliament would have been absolutely lost; but that, probably at the commencement of the new Parliament, public attention would have been addressed to them with much less consideration of the intrinsic merits of those questions, and much more in reference to the party feeling, than has been the case when during this interregnum of parties, we have had an opportunity of submitting to the calm and dispassionate consideration of both Houses of Parliament measures absolutely and entirely stripped of all party character. My Lords, I earnestly hope that when Parliament shall meet again, there may be the same forbearance and the same general disposition to treat with temper and moderation the subjects which may be brought under their consideration. But I cannot expect that party feeling will not mingle in our discussions—nay, more, I do not desire but that it should. My Lords, I will only say that, while, on the one hand, in any measure which it may be our duty to bring forward in the course of the next Session of Parliament, we shall not shrink from an endeavour to do justice to any of those classes of the community who we may think are suffering under an inequality of pressure and injustice of taxation—at the same time, I can assure your Lordships, with all sincerity and with all truth, that our endeavours will be directed rather to reconcile than to exasperate the feelings of difference between classes; and that, so far from seeking to support the interests of one class apart from the interests of the others, our object will he rather to obtain the confidence of the country at large by doing to the best of our ability, and with thorough impartiality, that which we believe to be called for by the claims of justice to all the various interests of the country.
EARL GREY: My Lords, the noble Earl who has just sat down has pointed attention to the circumstance of my noble and learned Friend Lord Truro not having arrived at a decided opinion as to the Chan-
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cery Bill, although the late Government announced, in the Speech from the Throne, that measures of legal reform would be brought forward. There is no inconsistency in what I said on that subject, because, as your Lordships may remember, it was upon points of detail, and not upon the principle of that Bill, that my noble and learned Friend Lord Truro refused to express his opinion. The general principle of a measure of Chancery reform was clearly and unhesitatingly determined upon by Her Majesty's late Government; but my noble and learned Friend Lord Truro was pressed, within forty-eight hours from the Report of the Commissioners being placed in his hands, to declare his opinion, not only as to the general principles of the measure, but as to its details; and it was on them, and them only, that I said he declined to give any opinion. I certainly am not going to follow the noble Earl through the statement which he has just made. I have no wish to find fault with his having congratulated himself, the House, and the country, on the result of the present Session. I have no fault to find with his statement. I believe with him that the fact that a great many useful measures have been passed during the present Session, is mainly to be attributed, as he himself has stated, to the circumstance of there having been a short interregnum of parties. It is that circumstance which has facilitated the passing of many important measures. I may also add, that it is greatly owing to the circumstance that, fortunately for this House and the noble Lords opposite, Her Majesty's Government found that, with respect to these measures —I will give them credit for the judgment they have shown—they might safely adopt the principles and views of their predecessors. Many of the measures which they found ready to be submitted by the late Government, they adopted, although, if in opposition, those very measures would have been most strongly opposed by the present Government. Now, my Lords, on this subject I cannot help mentioning one case, trivial, no doubt, but still it is a sample of the great extent to which the views and measures of the late Government have been adopted by the present. Great credit has been taken by the noble and learned Lord opposite for the passing of the New Zealand Bill, and, more especially, for some clauses in that Bill. Now, I cannot help reminding your Lordships that one of

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the most important clauses of that Bill, and which reconciled a number of persons who would otherwise have been dissatisfied with it, was that by which the Legislature of New Zealand will be enabled to make future reforms in the constitution which has been granted to them by that Bill—I cannot, I say, help reminding your Lordships that two years ago a similar clause —precisely in the same terms—in the Australian Bill, met the determined resistance of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby), and of the party by which he was then supported. I believe there was a division upon the subject; but, at all events, that clause was considered by the noble Earl opposite to be a great departure from all propriety, and we were informed that if Parliament gave a constitution, Parliament should reserve to itself, and to itself only, the power of altering the constitution granted. I remember the answer of the noble Earl opposite on that occasion, and I am glad, now that the responsibility of Government has been placed upon him, that he has adopted the views which were entertained upon that subject by Her Majesty's late Government. I cannot but express congratulation with respect to the measures passed this Session; but I think the great facility with which they were passed is not a little owing to the circumstances to which I have referred.
LORD BEAUMONT: When I stated that the Government was in a minority, I actually quoted words which fell from the noble Earl and some of his Colleagues. And when he states that he has been able to carry out his policy, I join issue with him upon the subject, and say that the noble Earl simply carried out the policy of his predecessors, and that he has not submitted to this Parliament any measure—
The EARL of DERBY: I said I carried out measures—
LORD BEAUMONT: Aye. You carried out measures which you adopted from recommendations made by Commissioners appointed by the late Government. You carried out measures which were suggested by your predecessors.

LAW REFORM.
On Motion that the Consolidated Fund Appropriation Bill be read a Third Time,
LORD BROUGHAMrose, and said, that having on the previous day recommended Her Majesty's Government to issue a Commission for the purpose of inquiring
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into the practice and jurisdiction of County Courts, he begged now to suggest further, that the frame of that Commission should be similar to that which was issued last year on the subject of the Court of Chancery. He would now read what he submitted should be the frame of it; the whole subject of fees and salaries as well as costs should be included, and he would hand to the noble Lord opposite the paper now read. His noble Friend would find that it extended to all Courts of Local Jurisdiction as well as County Courts. He begged also to take that opportunity of expressing his regret that County Court Judges, who were enabled to act as magistrates in counties without any other qualification than their Judgeship, had not been chosen as Chairmen of Sessions. He believed that great advantage would be derived from the justices in quarter-sessions being enabled to avail themselves of the assistance of the County Court Judges, in the same way as the magistrates in Ireland were enabled to avail themselves of the services of the Assistant Barristers in that country; and both in the Bill of 1833 and the Bill of 1846 the provision respecting the qualification was inserted in the hope that such a course would be taken in the different counties of England. There were several serious defects in the practice not merely of the local judicatures, to all which as well as the County Courts the inquiry should extend, but of the Superior Courts, which he hoped and trusted not many years, he hoped even not many months, would elapse before he saw a remedy applied to them. He particularly alluded to that most grievous omission to which he had often adverted in the practice of our Criminal Law whereby we are left without a public prosecutor. The present system had met with the universal condemnation of the Judges, who were all agreed that nothing could be worse than the present arrangement, by which the Judges performed the incompatible duties of both prosecutors, counsel for the prisoner, when he was without legal assistance, and Judges. He would read what had been recently said on the subject by some of these learned persons, as reported in Mr. Cox's Criminal Cases—Mr. Justice Cresswell, Mr. Justice Maule, Mr. Justice Coleridge, and Mr. Justice Williams. [The noble Lord read the opinions of those Judges, and their complaints of the want of prosecuting counsel.] Mr. Baron

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Pennifather, in Ireland, expressed himself in similar terms. Such a scandal must now cease, and the remedy for this great evil was a reform which it required no legislative measure to effect, at least to begin. It merely required the direction of the Secretary of State, and the concurrence of local authorities. When he (Lord Brougham) held the Great Seal, in 1834, his noble Friend Lord Bessborough (then Home Secretary), and himself, had arranged to introduce the matter gradually, and had intended to commence with the Central Criminal Court, which has jurisdiction over a population of 2,000,000; but their arrangement, unfortunately, was not carried into effect, owing to the change of Ministry which soon happened. In some counties the clerk of the peace supplied the want of a public prosecutor by having a standing counsel to superintend the criminal business. Thus, in the West Riding of Yorkshire and in Northumberland, he remembered the same counsel used always to be employed. The admirable manner in which the business was prepared and conducted, prevented both improper prosecutions being commenced, and failure in those fit to be instituted. There were many other matters connected with the local jurisdiction in its various braches, which imperatively required attention. He trusted the Government would give the whole subject their early and most careful consideration,
The MARQUESS of SALISBURYsaid, he could only repeat what bad been said on the previous day by the noble Earl at the head of Her Majesty's Government, namely, that the subjects to which the noble and learned Lord had called their attention should not be lost sight of. But he must observe that the present was not a very convenient opportunity for bringing forward these subjects.
LORD BROUGHAMthought, on the contrary, that the Motion for the Third Reading of the Appropriation Bill was a most fit occasion. That Bill was at all times considered as opening every matter of complaint; it was State of the Motion.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

PATENT LAW AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
Message from the Commons insisting; on certain of their Amendments, to which the Lords have disagreed, with their Reasons:
The said Reasons considered.
Moved —Not to insist on the said Amendments to which the Commons disagree:
On Question, Whether to insist? Resolved in the Negative.
House adjourned till To-morrow.